GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Que on March 04, 2020, 01:28:31 AM

Title: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Que on March 04, 2020, 01:28:31 AM
Some weeks ago my CD-player died after 20 years of service. :(
I'm contemplating my options - this might be the time for an upgrade of my entire system... ::)

Meanwhile, I have resorted to my wife's Spotify account and headphones.
Sofar, it has been an interesting experience. I already decided that any new gear should make it possible to play and listen to streamed music the same way as my CD collection.

I was wondering. How has the availability of muscic streaming affected your buying and listening habits?
How do you use streaming services? Has anyone stopped buying CDs altogether? Do you still play CDs?

Q
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: "Harry" on March 04, 2020, 02:16:34 AM
Some weeks ago my CD-player died after 20 years of service. :(
I'm contemplating my options - this might be the time for an upgrade of my entire system... ::)

Meanwhile, I have resorted to my wife's Spotify account and headphones.
Sofar, it has been an interesting experience. I already decided that any new gear should make it possible to play and listen to streamed music the same way as my CD collection.

I was wondering. How has the availability of muscic streaming affected your buying and listening habits?
How do you use streaming services? Has anyone stopped buying CDs altogether? Do you still play CDs?

Q

I have a streamer in my home and could in principle listen to lots of music. The problem is in that respect that i have piles and piles of CD's yet to listen. Streaming would only add more. And furthermore I am too old for starting yet another venture into technology. Plus that the audio quality is in most cases not enough for me. So I stick to CD'S. Less stress for me.
And by the way Que, 20 years life for a CD player is quite a feat. :)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Biffo on March 04, 2020, 02:30:40 AM
I use Spotify for previewing music (CD or download) that I am considering buying or have seen reviewed or mentioned in this forum. Sometimes I use it for listening to music that I am interested in hearing but not in buying. I have quite a few albums in my Spotify library and dip into them occasionally. I suppose there is the possibility that one day they will disappear for some reason but it wouldn't be a great loss as they are free (apart from the modest Spotify subscription) and mostly marginal to my main music listening.

The subscription is well worth the money and has saved me from buying well-received albums that I didn't, on hearing, actually care for.

The sound quality of Spotify Premium  is more than adequate for my purposes.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2020, 03:05:58 AM

How do you use streaming services?

Q

To explore and discover new things -- new composers, new performers, new music, new releases.


 Has anyone stopped buying CDs altogether?

Q

No because some things I want to hear are only available in high quality audio on CD

Do you still play CDs?

Q

No. I've not played a CD for about 10 years.



 I already decided that any new gear should make it possible to play and listen to streamed music the same way as my CD collection.



I've achieved this. I would advise getting advice from the internet rather than shops. The reason is, the advice from shops is constrained by their their margins and the products they have reseller ageements for. They may not give you best advice.

You won't quite manage it with spotify by the way, because of the sound quality, but it may not be important to you.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 04, 2020, 03:22:46 AM
Some weeks ago my CD-player died after 20 years of service. :(
I'm contemplating my options - this might be the time for an upgrade of my entire system... ::)

Meanwhile, I have resorted to my wife's Spotify account and headphones.
Sofar, it has been an interesting experience. I already decided that any new gear should make it possible to play and listen to streamed music the same way as my CD collection.

I was wondering. How has the availability of muscic streaming affected your buying and listening habits?
How do you use streaming services? Has anyone stopped buying CDs altogether? Do you still play CDs?

Q

I bought a new CD player about a year ago. I specifically hunted down a system that could both play CDs and stream on wifi (a surprisingly difficult exercise, though it seems units that can use Bluetooth are a bit more common).

While it turns out to not be completely perfect, I literally had a tear in my eye when I first got it home and set up. Being able to do both on the same system was a joy to me.

I use streaming for two main purposes.

First, to try out things with a view to buying them. I already used iTunes 90-second samples for this purpose, so I suppose what streaming has done is enable me to listen to a complete work or album. For things where I really want to nail down which version I want to buy, iTunes still operates as a kind of shortlisting mechanism and then I will mark the relevant versions in Deezer to listen to. Hence, picking out versions of the Bach cello suites and Shostakovich preludes and fugues for piano last year. And intermittently trying out different editions of Ravel orchestral works and Schubert piano sonatas at the moment.

Second, I use streaming to explore repertoire I'm somewhat interested in but don't own. It's enabled me to do my full chronological explorations of various composers, filling in gaps (and still sometimes leading to me making notes about works/recordings I want to purchase). More recently if something is mentioned here on GMG and takes my fancy, I might well go and mark it in Deezer as a 'Favourite' so that I can try it out when I'm in the right frame of mind for exploring new music.

This has not stopped me buying CDs by any means, and I'm not sure it's even slowed it down. I have very firm philosophical views on putting the music that I value into my library as a way of reflecting that value. Having some recordings online marked as 'favourites' is not a substitute for this in my opinion. Streaming has just made the process less prone to misses because I generally have a high degree of certainty that what I'm buying is going to be satisfying.

But it's worth pointing out that my CD-purchasing approach has long been very different to many people on GMG. I buy a lot less than many people, because I'm a lot slower to buy. I don't want to end up with a dozen versions of the same work, normally I'm aiming for 1 and it's only some very select works where I'm looking for multiple performances. I was sampling and considering in record shops and going away to ponder before coming back to purchase long before any of this internet purchasing was available, never mind streaming.

I still listen to CDs at home for anything I own. At work, I'd already gradually gravitated from being armed with a portable CD player (particularly for classical) to putting parts of my library on my iPhone (easier for pop music, but over time I'd worked out reasonably good ways of organising the metadata for classical as well, and one the best things about iTunes is that it makes editing the metadata for CD rips pretty straightforward). A Deezer subscription has  made it possible for me to spontaneously listen to something that I haven't loaded onto the iPhone.

I certainly have noticed that I now spend more time listening to things that I don't own, ie the exploration aspect has been strengthened by access. At times it represents around 50% of my listening. But what I won't do is listen to any particular album repeatedly on streaming. Any more than a couple of times, if I want to keep listening, then that's a sign that the album belongs in the shopping cart. CD if it's available, and if it's clearly not going to be available on CD from anywhere then a download purchase.

Not least because: 1. A streaming service can lose material at any time if the licensing is withdrawn, and 2. Sometimes they really, really fuck up the metadata in spectacular fashion or have tracks missing or whatever. My personal library = in my control. Anything you stream is not yours.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 04, 2020, 07:04:03 AM
I bought a new CD player about a year ago. I specifically hunted down a system that could both play CDs and stream on wifi (a surprisingly difficult exercise, though it seems units that can use Bluetooth are a bit more common).

While it turns out to not be completely perfect, I literally had a tear in my eye when I first got it home and set up. Being able to do both on the same system was a joy to me.

May I ask which CD player/streamer you purchased?  Am curious as to whether or not it's available in the States.

Que,

I'm probably one of the few people here (I'm guessing) that hasn't ever used a streaming service.  Years ago, I remember hearing about one that was available in at least parts of Europe that was a very high-quality audio streamer.  Forget now what the name was, but last I remember hearing about it, they were hoping to be able to operate in the US?  Then that didn't work out and I think that they ran into issues overseas to and are no-longer?  Does this ring a bell with anyone here?

Are there any high-quality audio streaming services these days?  If not, I could still see the value in trying them out...regarding exposure to new music, new artists, new recordings, etc.  A relative loves Pandora, but I think that that is different than the other ones that you gents are talking about--in that it's random.  Also, I don't believe that one can pick and 'keep' albums with that service?

Best wishes,

PD
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Ratliff on March 04, 2020, 10:01:00 AM
I'm reluctant to switch to streaming because, as of yet, most of the offerings are compressed and less than CD quality and because I already have so many recordings.

I have been ripping my CD collection to lossless (FLAC) and basically never listen to a physical CD. I almost always listen to my FLAC files through my CD player, which has Digital inputs so it can effectively work as a DAC. Sometimes I listen through a portable DAC and headphones.

Effectively my hard drive is my hard-copy streaming service. I have about 2 Tb of flac files, and rarely buy new recordings. When I do, they are either lossless downloads (flac) or used CDs that get immediately ripped.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 04, 2020, 10:51:54 AM
Some weeks ago my CD-player died after 20 years of service. :(
I'm contemplating my options - this might be the time for an upgrade of my entire system... ::)

Meanwhile, I have resorted to my wife's Spotify account and headphones.
Sofar, it has been an interesting experience. I already decided that any new gear should make it possible to play and listen to streamed music the same way as my CD collection.

I was wondering. How has the availability of muscic streaming affected your buying and listening habits?
How do you use streaming services? Has anyone stopped buying CDs altogether? Do you still play CDs?

Q

Streaming has completely altered how I listen to music, and for the better. I used to spend more than $100/month on CD purchases, often quite a bit more.  Now for about $150/year I have access much more music than I ever tried to acquire.  I will still make a CD purchase but only if it is not available to stream and is of music that I feel a strong need to hear and have available.

My spending has dropped precipitously while at the same time the amount of new music I listen to has increased dramatically - a state of affairs I am very happy about.

 8)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 04, 2020, 01:28:11 PM
May I ask which CD player/streamer you purchased?  Am curious as to whether or not it's available in the States.

Que,

I'm probably one of the few people here (I'm guessing) that hasn't ever used a streaming service.  Years ago, I remember hearing about one that was available in at least parts of Europe that was a very high-quality audio streamer.  Forget now what the name was, but last I remember hearing about it, they were hoping to be able to operate in the US?  Then that didn't work out and I think that they ran into issues overseas to and are no-longer?  Does this ring a bell with anyone here?

Are there any high-quality audio streaming services these days?  If not, I could still see the value in trying them out...regarding exposure to new music, new artists, new recordings, etc.  A relative loves Pandora, but I think that that is different than the other ones that you gents are talking about--in that it's random.  Also, I don't believe that one can pick and 'keep' albums with that service?

Best wishes,

PD

Panasonic SC-PMX series. My exact model is PMX 152.

Lots of services advertise CD quality these days, often for a higher subscription price. Tidal is one that makes a thing about only being high quality for example.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 04, 2020, 01:34:46 PM
Panasonic SC-PMX series. My exact model is PMX 152.

Lots of services advertise CD quality these days, often for a higher subscription price. Tidal is one that makes a thing about only being high quality for example.

Thanks!  I googled Quobuz a short while ago and read the info on Wiki; that was the company that I had heard about.  I remember them being in financial straights and thought that I also had read that they were going out of business at one point.  Nice to hear that there are other companies too which care about the sound quality!   :)

PD
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 04, 2020, 02:00:03 PM
PS I know that Marantz also makes units that can do both CDs and wifi, but they’re not a complete mini stereo like mine. You need to buy speakers.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: j winter on March 04, 2020, 02:01:58 PM

... I'm probably one of the few people here (I'm guessing) that hasn't ever used a streaming service....
 

I haven't used one either, unless you count Sirius XM radio (Tom Petty's Buried Treasure!  8) ).  I've had probably 90% of my CDs digitized to high quality MP3s for years -- I've considered upgrading them to FLAC, but it would be such a PITA to re-rip, and honestly I do a lot of my listening either in the car or over bluetooth earbuds or speakers, and the MP3s are fine for that.

If I'm listening at home, either in the evening or on weekends, I listen to CDs, either on the big system in the living room, or on a bookshelf-sized system in my home office.  I've recently set up a spare laptop with a copy of my digital music library and the Sirius XM, and have also plugged that into my main system for convenience, as I do have some music in digital format only -- not a lot, maybe 20% max of what I have....
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: hvbias on March 04, 2020, 02:19:05 PM
I had a Tidal premium (or whatever they called the hi-res one) subscription but cancelled it since the ugly Universal watermark was audible in many releases. I'll use Spotify now to determine if I want to buy a CD.

Youtube is probably my favorite of them because you can read comments which are often pretty damn funny or educational with people pointing things out in scores. Like Reddit's /r/cm I get the impression many of them are university/conservatory students and their unique insights into music is often pretty interesting.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2020, 02:41:04 PM
I'm reluctant to switch to streaming because, as of yet, most of the offerings are compressed and less than CD quality and because I already have so many recordings.

I have been ripping my CD collection to lossless (FLAC) and basically never listen to a physical CD. I almost always listen to my FLAC files through my CD player, which has Digital inputs so it can effectively work as a DAC. Sometimes I listen through a portable DAC and headphones.

Effectively my hard drive is my hard-copy streaming service. I have about 2 Tb of flac files, and rarely buy new recordings. When I do, they are either lossless downloads (flac) or used CDs that get immediately ripped.

I didn't write this, but I could have. Sorry, PD, but you aren't quite alone there outside the main-stream, I've never streamed either. However, my listening routine is aptly described here by Scarpia, and within the last 6 months, I have got to the point where I don't buy a CD at all unless is is not available as a FLAC download. Sometimes, downloaders don't provide liner notes, and I have been known to buy a used CD to get them. This has been a major reordering for me, but it is nowhere near as huge as going to streaming would have been. I have a Fiio X5 gen 3, so I can use it as a DAC, maybe will when my old Onkyo stereo finally craps out on me. I could ever stream with it, but I don't see streaming in my future, even in the long term. :-\

8)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: steve ridgway on March 05, 2020, 04:39:30 AM
I too have never streamed, mainly play CDs, physically or ripped to lossless or MP3 depending on the playback device. I don't like the idea of paying a subscription but never having a permanent copy and needing an internet connection to listen to anything.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 05:04:01 AM
I too have never streamed, mainly play CDs, physically or ripped to lossless or MP3 depending on the playback device. I don't like the idea of paying a subscription but never having a permanent copy and needing an internet connection to listen to anything.

To be fair:

1. Many services have a free version, though with some limitations. Weirdly these limitations are often different for using a desktop version versus using a mobile app version. For desktop, I was quite happy with free for a long time because I could still properly control what I listened to and just got the occasional ad break.

2. Most services will allow you to download with a subscription, meaning that you don't need an internet connection all the time. I find it faintly hilarious that they advertise this as some kind of startling innovation, as if I haven't been listening to music without internet for decades, but it effectively means I can pre-load albums onto my iPhone from Deezer in exactly the same way that I do it with my iTunes purchases and rips.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 05, 2020, 05:09:37 AM
Interesting to read all of the comments here!

I hadn't heard of a Universal 'watermark' before?  Is this something that they put in every so often so as to prevent people from permanently downloading the music to their computer?  Or burning it directly to CD?  And what does it sound like?

PD
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 05:15:18 AM
https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

But it's changing. Apparently many watermarks are now gone.

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/an-update-on-umg-watermarks
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2020, 05:16:56 AM
I've already posted about how much I enjoy streaming, but must admit some surprise that I am in the high grass on GMG.  I dunno - streaming is the apogee of how I always dreamed of listening to music. 

Aside from conventional listening to a single work or CD, what I like to do is to create large playlist folders of my favorite composers and then listen to the music randomly, somewhat like my own radio station.  That is impossible to do with CDs, even with my old 110 disc player.  It was clunky and made noise when switching discs not to mention the regular jamming and mechanical problems.  I can now randomly listen to not 110 CDs but thousands - and have at my disposal far more music than I could ever (or want) to purchase.

Paying a subscription at a fraction of what I used to spend on buying CDs, is a huge net plus financially - and - I now view my shelves of CDs as a giant albatross - all that stuff.  Except for the CDs that are OOP or otherwise unavailable to stream I will eventually unload them, even if it is at a dump. (If one of you hoarders want to pay the shipping, they can all be yours.)   ;D

Between Spotify and Naxos Music Library (which I get access to as part of a magazine subscription) there is little I don't have at my fingertips to listen to immediately.

You guys can keep your physical media and rave about audio quality all you want (which has never been a priority for me, I can't really tell much difference between digital formats or CDs).  I will happily stream to my heart's content.

 8)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 05:21:48 AM
Well of course streaming is great if you want to randomise everything.

But if you're doing playlists, you're doing something that was already perfectly possible in iTunes or some other media player on your computer.

EDIT: As to the bit about being able to listen to virtually anything immediately... the fact is, though, you won't. You're paying for millions of tracks that you'll never actually hear, including millions that you'd hate if you did hear them. The percentage of things in my library that I spent money on but dislike is quite a bit smaller.  ;) And I make it a point to ensure that I've actually listened to everything in my library, because I don't let myself acquire more until the list of unlistened material has shrunk.

Plus, of course, there are things I've been listening to for up to 28 years (that's how long I've had a CD player) without paying for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 79th listens. My up-front costs might be higher, but they don't recur.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2020, 05:27:36 AM
Well of course streaming is great if you want to randomise everything.

But if you're doing playlists, you're doing something that was already perfectly possible in iTunes or some other media player on your computer.

EDIT: As to the bit about being able to listen to virtually anything immediately... the fact is, though, you won't. You're paying for millions of tracks that you'll never actually hear, including millions that you'd hate if you did hear them.

While true, what I am paying is one-tenth of what I used to spend each year on a fraction of the music that I do listen to with streaming.  I have a huge iTunes library (over 175,000 tracks) but don't listen to it much anymore. Almost all of and much much more is available to stream, in a more convenient format.  I can link my phone, iPad, laptop and desktop and listen wherever I am, and control the volume, programming, etc. with my phone.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 05:32:25 AM
While true, what I am paying is one-tenth of what I used to spend each year on a fraction of the music that I do listen to with streaming.  I have a huge iTunes library (over 175,000 tracks) but don't listen to it much anymore. Almost all of and much much more is available to stream, in a more convenient format.  I can link my phone, iPad, laptop and desktop and listen wherever I am, and control the volume, programming, etc. with my phone.

Yes, well, as I've already hinted at, if you were the common type of GMG person who seems to acquire more albums per year than I can conceive of actually listening to, never mind properly paying attention to and taking in the music as anything more than sonic wallpaper, the economics might be different.

EDIT: You made me look at my iTunes library. It's nowhere near being a complete representation of my music collection, especially not for the classical half, but it still only has about 7,000 tracks in it.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: hvbias on March 05, 2020, 05:58:55 AM
Except for the CDs that are OOP or otherwise unavailable to stream I will eventually unload them, even if it is at a dump. (If one of you hoarders want to pay the shipping, they can all be yours.)   ;D

 8)

If you're serious consider me more than happy to  ;D Even my older one is a bit fascinated by vinyl so two potentially eager future generations as well. I even find ripping CDs oddly therapeutic so I don't mind taking on that task for you  ;)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: hvbias on March 05, 2020, 06:02:55 AM
https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

But it's changing. Apparently many watermarks are now gone.

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/an-update-on-umg-watermarks

Good to know, I don't really hear it often on Spotify. I figured it was because the files are lossy that they didn't care to watermark them but what that blog post says makes sense.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on March 05, 2020, 06:38:26 AM
https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

But it's changing. Apparently many watermarks are now gone.

https://www.mattmontag.com/music/an-update-on-umg-watermarks
Thank you for the links, but for some reason or other I couldn't play them.   :(  I could click on the play button--actually go back and forth between the play and pause functions, but the little progression 'dot' underneath never moved.

PD
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: steve ridgway on March 05, 2020, 07:24:42 AM
Paying a subscription at a fraction of what I used to spend on buying CDs, is a huge net plus financially - and - I now view my shelves of CDs as a giant albatross - all that stuff.

I'd probably go for streaming if I was young and only just starting to listen to music. As it is I think my collection of around 1,000 CDs (100 classical) is probably enough and am now focussing on thoroughly enjoying it.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2020, 09:07:36 AM
I'd probably go for streaming if I was young and only just starting to listen to music. As it is I think my collection of around 1,000 CDs (100 classical) is probably enough and am now focussing on thoroughly enjoying it.

LOL.  I am not young, at 68, I've been avidly buying music (in various media)  for more than 50 years. 

100 classical CDs would in no way satisfy my curiosity to hear the music I am interested in.  But, we are all different.  For me, hearing new works or a variety of performances of works I like is more important, and streaming makes that process much more attainable than ever before.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Marc on March 05, 2020, 09:30:35 AM
I have a nice Denon set, which I bought in 1997/1998. The last 6 months, the CD player is giving me some problems, so I switched to my 'back up' player. It's a Philips CD player that once belonged to my younger brother. He bought it in 1986/1987. It's still working fine, but it has no remote control. Hence: playing CD's is good again for my physical condition.

On my travels (mostly to and fro work), I sometimes use a portable MiniDisc-player (yeah), but mostly a mp3-player. The latter has got lots of Bach and a few other baroque composers, and also some pop music: Beatles, Bowie, The Doors, Neil Young, Nick Drake and other ole man's stuff.

I have no smartphone, and I do not stream. Nevertheless I am happy. I did not stop buying new discs, but in the last 2 years I think I only bought about a dozen. Sometimes I borrow a few from the public library. But mostly I guess I'm mostly happy with what I already have. Maybe this will change again in the future, maybe I'm gonna stream one day. The future's wide open. ;)

By the way:
Has the 21st century already started?
Apologies, I did not notice.

:laugh:
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Ratliff on March 05, 2020, 09:49:10 AM
I have a nice Denon set, which I bought in 1997/1998. The last 6 months, the CD player is giving me some problems, so I switched to my 'back up' player. It's a Philips CD player that once belonged to my younger brother. He bought it in 1986/1987. It's still working fine, but it has no remote control. Hence: playing CD's is good again for my physical condition.

On my travels (mostly to and fro work), I sometimes use a portable MiniDisc-player (yeah), but mostly a mp3-player. The latter has got lots of Bach and a few other baroque composers, and also some pop music: Beatles, Bowie, The Doors, Neil Young, Nick Drake and other ole man's stuff.

I have no smartphone, and I do not stream. Nevertheless I am happy. I did not stop buying new discs, but in the last 2 years I think I only bought about a dozen. Sometimes I borrow a few from the public library. But mostly I guess I'm mostly happy with what I already have. Maybe this will change again in the future, maybe I'm gonna stream one day. The future's wide open. ;)

By the way:
Has the 21st century already started?
Apologies, I did not notice.

:laugh:

Interesting that the 1987 hardware still works. They built things to last, in those days.

That 1987 player probably has lovely analog circuitry, but the DAC must be pretty primitive, raw 44.1 kHz conversion with analog filtering. Machines of that era could sound lovely, in my experience, but there was some rolloff of high frequency because of the limitation of analog filtering. Probably wouldn't be a problem for my heavily used ears.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: amw on March 05, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
I cancelled my Qobuz subscription a while back after they removed my subscription tier and bumped me up to a more expensive one. I still occasionally stream from the Deezer free tier but streaming is not the way I prefer to hear music; I want files that I’m guaranteed to have access to regardless of any future decisions by record labels or whether streaming services go out of business (none of them are making a profit, as far as I know) or any arbitrary restrictions record companies might inflict (eg only allowing you to listen to mp3s on streaming sites, or tracks shorter than 10 minutes). So everything that I want, even if I do stream it first to check for quality, ends up in an itunes library where I can just shuffle random groupings of whatever as needed. Currently that’s about 143,000 tracks. I anticipate once I have everything I want it’ll be closer to 150,000-175,000 but there’s obviously no way to predict how my musical tastes will change in the future; if I develop an interest in genres other than classical this could obviously expand indefinitely.

The benefit of streaming is that there’s a lot of stuff that is worth listening to maybe once at best, & streaming makes it possible to do so without buying anything.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Iota on March 05, 2020, 01:51:03 PM
I stopped really being interested in the physical aspect of recordings when cd's started. Many LP's, classical and rock, were hypnotically lovely to me as I grew up, but that's gone now, and with a very few exceptions I'd be happy to have everything as download/streamed, and release my collection back into the wilderness from whence it came, but that day is probably far off.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2020, 02:04:04 PM
I feel like we should be asking everyone whether they own their own home or just rent.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Daverz on March 05, 2020, 07:51:31 PM
I've mentioned Qobuz quite a bit in the "What are you listening to" thread.  I have the "Studio" plan: hi-rez streaming, but I don't get the discounts on hi-res downloads.  If you like to own the hi-res files, the "Sublime" level is probably very much worth it, because the discounts are pretty deep.





Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2020, 10:29:19 PM

The benefit of streaming is that there’s a lot of stuff that is worth listening to maybe once at best, & streaming makes it possible to do so without buying anything.



Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 06, 2020, 02:06:42 AM


Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

Which raises the question of how those performances became 'canonical'.

I do think I relied on reviews a hell of a lot more when I couldn't listen to things myself before purchase. I went through a number of versions of the Penguin Guide for example.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: amw on March 06, 2020, 02:19:50 AM
I used the library a lot.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Marc on March 06, 2020, 02:31:22 AM
Interesting that the 1987 hardware still works. They built things to last, in those days.

That 1987 player probably has lovely analog circuitry, but the DAC must be pretty primitive, raw 44.1 kHz conversion with analog filtering. Machines of that era could sound lovely, in my experience, but there was some rolloff of high frequency because of the limitation of analog filtering. Probably wouldn't be a problem for my heavily used ears.

Interesting.
Indeed, when I listen to this oldie with my headphones plugged in directly, the sound can be discribed as 'warm'. Which isn't all that bad, to be honest. It even 'helps' a bit with f.i. older recordings of Harnoncourt's Concentus Musicus Wien.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: "Harry" on March 06, 2020, 02:48:45 AM


Interesting.
Indeed, when I listen to this oldie with my headphones plugged in directly, the sound can be discribed as 'warm'. Which isn't all that bad, to be honest. It even 'helps' a bit with f.i. older recordings of Harnoncourt's Concentus Musicus Wien.

Hi Marc,
Would that be the Philips CD 100 you are currently using, a top loader. I still have that machine, albeit modified with a better DAC. Not using it anymore, but keeping it in my collection of museum pieces. I currently making a display unit in which all the antiquated stereo machinery is stored. I already have quite a few items.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Marc on March 06, 2020, 05:00:33 AM
Hi Marc,
Would that be the Philips CD 100 you are currently using, a top loader. I still have that machine, albeit modified with a better DAC. Not using it anymore, but keeping it in my collection of museum pieces. I currently making a display unit in which all the antiquated stereo machinery is stored. I already have quite a few items.

Aha, the "Harry" museum! :)
Follow the sign:

(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/61/17/eYD4Shcv_t.jpg)

I do remember the CD 100, iirc it's from the early 1980s.
The one I have is the hugely modern ;) front loader Philips CD 471:

(https://images2.imgbox.com/b9/de/sVt6soTj_o.jpg)
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Daverz on March 06, 2020, 05:40:15 AM
Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

Nonsense.  One can replay to the same recordings from a streaming service again and again just like replaying a CD.  The musical experience is the same.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2020, 05:44:19 AM
One can replay to the same recordings from a streaming service again and again just like replaying a CD.  The musical experience is the same.

Of course. My point is about uses and attitudes.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Iota on March 06, 2020, 06:20:25 AM


Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

I think - to the extent I have thought about it - you may have a point. The depth of choice streaming offers means it is perhaps more tempting to hear something new, whether work or performance, than revisit the familiar. I like this though, as I've got older I'm far more interested in exploring unheard repertoire/performances than numerous repeat listens, particularly early and modern repertoire ... Time's short and all that, and the less physical baggage as far as I'm concerned, the better.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: hvbias on March 06, 2020, 07:09:29 AM


Before streaming, exploring music at home meant building a library of treasured canonical performances which contained experiences so valuable that they repayed repeated listening. People would buy a CD and play it over and over again.  You see it here, with all that talk of “top shelf”, “go-to”, “top tier” “reference”, the way people look for recommendations. This created a fundamental difference between home listening and concert listening. Streaming  replaced that with the concept of home music exploration as a sequence of  ephemeral experience.

You don't think it can be very hard to unlearn this type of behavior? If I knew for certain this music would be around forever on a streaming service and in CD quality (no watermarks) I'd like to think I could give up all my CDs/files I've ripped. I don't keep going back to keep relistening to stuff on streaming services (usually just buy it or not after a few listens) so I don't know if the following phenomena exists- on Netflix I've noticed many shows come and go or say things like "this will the last year this is offered".

I read some psychologist say that the reason we hoard stuff is in our mind prolonging our inevitable mortality.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2020, 07:12:38 AM
I don't think one can make any generalizations about listening behavior whether it is via streaming or listening to fixed media; some of us will have favorite recordings we listen to again and again no matter the method.

But what I think is going on is more related to what I'll call the "collector syndrome."  For some of us, owning a physical artifact is very important, and for some of us being a completist is rewarding when you see the assembled physical products on your shelf.  I used to be like that.  But I think what I was really doing was trying to create the kind of huge collection of music which I only experienced with the advent of streaming services.

I no longer value my CDs (except for the few that are not available otherwise) and have never been happier with the abundance of music available to stream.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: (: premont :) on March 06, 2020, 07:18:14 AM
I read some psychologist say that the reason we hoard stuff is in our mind prolonging our inevitable mortality.

Or maybe because we want to spend our time in the best way as long as we live.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 06, 2020, 08:44:07 AM
I guess I'm a Luddite. I've never used a streaming service; things like Qobuz and Spotify are just names to me and I have no interest in them. I'm also too lazy to rip my CDs to hard drive - it strikes me as a lot of work with little benefit. I've actually gone back in time and probably bought more LPs over the past couple of years than CDs.

The only vaguely streaming thing I do is check out new music via YouTube, for free. But if I really like something, I'm not going to content myself with You Tube listening.

Reading here about having "175,000 tracks" and so on makes me realize I am nowhere near as fanatical about hearing new music as some posters here. As time goes by, I am more involved in a quest for favorites, things that I'll still want to listen to years from now. The logic of this is that I should try to reduce my collection rather than increasing it.

This is also a reason for the focus on physicality; I want something that lasts, and can't be taken away by a hard drive failure or a company going bankrupt. Just the other day, I listened to a bunch of CDs that had in common the fact that I bought all of them in 1997. There were 3 levels of experience to this: 1. enjoying the music; 2. seeing how well the music had held up over the past 23 years; 3. remembering the year 1997 and what I was doing then.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: hvbias on March 06, 2020, 08:52:37 AM
Or maybe because we want to spend our time in the best way as long as we live.

Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence. 
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2020, 08:58:01 AM
Quote
This is also a reason for the focus on physicality; I want something that lasts

Yesterday I pulled out a Miles Davis box (the Miles/Coltrane set) that I haven't played in a while.  The first disc had adhered to the cardboard sleeve and had paper debris stuck on it.  I tried to clean it off but gave up.  So far it still plays, but CDs are not permanent, I've had plenty that went bad after a while.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 06, 2020, 01:50:01 PM
Nonsense.  One can replay to the same recordings from a streaming service again and again just like replaying a CD.  The musical experience is the same.

No. The fact that one CAN doesn’t mean that one DOES. You’re arguing that people don’t change their behaviour in the face of having a vast buffet of tracks to choose from, and there is ample evidence that they do. In fact a high percentage of listening on streaming services is done by using the playlists and algorithms that the services themselves create.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2020, 02:22:24 PM
Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence.

I think what I'm arguing is that ebracing streaming is a means to liberation from the desire for permanence. In fact more, it leads to relishing impermanence. Streaming is a meditation practice, a path to enlightenment.  For this reason, people (like me) who use streaming as their primary means are closer to Zen Nirvana than poor benighted souls like you and amw, who are trapped in the Samsara of attachments.  As someone pointed out, CDs broze, get lost, get scratched.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: (: premont :) on March 06, 2020, 03:18:23 PM
Absolutely, I agree.

I was pointing that out in the context of what Mandryka wrote. If streaming were permanent, are we getting any less enjoyment in life because it's on a different platform and not something we own? Like amw said on the previous page I personally don't buy into its permanence.

I think what I'm arguing is that ebracing streaming is a means to liberation from the desire for permanence. In fact more, it leads to relishing impermanence. Streaming is a meditation practice, a path to enlightenment.  For this reason, people (like me) who use streaming as their primary means are closer to Zen Nirvana than poor benighted souls like you and amw, who are trapped in the Samsara of attachments.  As someone pointed out, CDs broze, get lost, get scratched.

But can you be sure, that the recordings you love will stay available for streaming?
If I own a CD I can listen to it, when I want to. And what about SQ?

BTW I have collected CDs for more than forty years (amounting to maybe 15000 CDs - I haven't counted them recently, and I have also culled a lot of CDs in the course), but I have never met a CD which wasn't readable by my CD deck or PC drive, bronzing or not..
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2020, 03:32:42 PM
But can you be sure, that the recordings you love will stay available for streaming?
If I own a CD I can listen to it, when I want to. And what about SQ?

BTW I have collected CDs for more than forty years (amounting to maybe 15000 CDs - I haven't counted them recently, and I have also culled a lot of CDs in the course), but I have never met a CD which wasn't readable by my CD deck or PC drive, bronzing or not..

I don't think anyone is arguing that streaming is "superior" to other forms of listening (although I do get a whiff of the opposite view).  For me it all boils down to personal priorities.  Just as you think that the impermanence of CDs is exaggerated, I feel that claims of the impermanence of streaming catalogs is also exaggerated. What might happen is subscription fees could increase.  But there will be a threshold above which most people will not pay.

What CD lovers should think about is how each year fewer and fewer CDs are manufactured and sold.  We may see a day when the only options for music are digital.

Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: (: premont :) on March 06, 2020, 03:39:53 PM
What CD lovers should think about is how each year fewer and fewer CDs are manufactured and sold.  We may see a day when the only options for music are digital.

That would be download, which already Presto and Amazon offer. If a recording is unavailable in the format of CD I am willing to pay for a download item even if I do not get the physical CD and often not even the booklet, But NB: I want lossless download.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on March 06, 2020, 06:24:13 PM
That would be download, which already Presto and Amazon offer. If a recording is unavailable in the format of CD I am willing to pay for a download item even if I do not get the physical CD and often not even the booklet, But NB: I want lossless download.

Yes. Digital is not equal to streaming. (And digital isn't the right term anyway, as CDs are themselves digital.)

Mind you, Apple is talking about shutting down iTunes and basically trying to push everyone onto Apple Music. The companies love the reliability of subscription income.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: aukhawk on March 08, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
And what about SQ?

You won't quite manage it with spotify by the way, because of the sound quality, but it may not be important to you.

Sound quality is very important to me, and I do have decent equipment - and I can't hear any significant difference between Spotify premium and a hi-rez lossless download of the same recording.   Yes if I were to A/B them I might detect a difference, but I've done a bit of that (just for my own interest) and the results were not conclusive.

That doesn't entirely stop me buying stuff - the urge to posess seems to be very hard to break, and I do like to listen offline as well.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Dowder on May 12, 2020, 09:26:52 PM
Haven’t bought a CD in over 10 years. My Apple music subscription has worked out well for providing just about any kind of musical interest I have at a much cheaper price than purchasing everything individually.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Holden on May 12, 2020, 11:02:21 PM
I have both Spotify and Tidal - Tidal has 'Master' copies and you can hear the difference. While most of my listening is via streaming, I do have the majority of my CDs and DVDs ripped to an external HD in 356 kbps mode. While this is compressed, I can't really hear too much difference, if any, from 44.1 Khz and I have some top end cans and iems which I use for listening.

It's the convenience of streaming that I like, knowing I can listen in good sound. When you are used to hearing historic performances, SQ takes on a whole new meaning.

I don't think Qobuz is available here in Australia.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 12:04:51 AM
I have been using Qobuz since the end of April and it has been a very positive experience overall. Over 450 CD's listened to or sampled to date, including some major blind spots as i posted in the non-classical music thread over the last few weeks. I initially save what I want to listen to at some point in the Favourites and, once listened, if it "passes", it gets moved to a playlist (for future re-streaming or possible purchase for definite favourites).

To date, I have :

- one British classical playlist (50 albums or boxsets approx)
- one "Other" Classical playlist (40 albums or boxsets approx)
- a Rock/Folk playlist (55+ albums or boxsets)
- A "quieter, more melodic" classical playlist I have created for my partner (30+ CD's)

To explore and sample, I have about 370 CD left of various composers, the 60-odd CD's in the Vivaldi Naive collection and about 90-100 CD/boxsets of French composers (my next big project).

So, overall, very pleased with the outcome and way forward (considering the monthly cost of £14.99). It's been going so well that in the last 2-3 weeks I have been delving deeper into options to improve on my streaming equipment. So far, I have been doing my streaming with mid-range Sennheiser earbuds straight out of my laptop or phone (with around 20 CD downloaded offline on each source at any time). Whilst I am satisfied with the 320kb MP3 or the CD sound with the earbuds for exploring, I have been looking for instance at equipment options to make use of my high-end headphones instead with the High-Res versions available, either with my laptop or via my Hi-fi itself. That took me down the road for instance of the Ifi Zen Blue (Bluetooth to Hifi Amp's RCA) or Ifi Zen Dac (USB Dac+ headphone Amp for Laptop, plus option of RCA to Hifi as well) to integrate streaming fully and long term in my listening habits.

That was until Friday/Saturday. Like many of you, I got the Europadisc weekly email highlighting the specific offer on Chandos. Among my British playlist were the Bax Orchestral works (Vol.2 to 5) that I really liked, dead cheap with this offer. As these were readily available on Qobuz and I was looking at relying more on streaming moving forward, I ignored the Europadisc offer.

Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. (edit: quick count: 17/50 CDs "British" affected, 12/40 "Other" affected). Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos, Toccata and CPO CDs. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist is completely useless.

Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!

Whilst the content at hand remains exceptional for the price, this sudden loss or change of availability, particularly in your own playlists, certainly has put a damper on relying solely on streaming in the future.

I ended up buying the 4 volumes of Bax from Europadisc. I am now of the opinion to use Qobuz only for the next 5-6 months until I exhaust my list of favourites to explore, the Vivaldi Naive and the French stuff. I am now also keeping an Excel tab of what's on and being added to my playlists, not to be caught again by their sudden amendments and mark the items I'd really want as future additions to my collections. At least, the sieving exercise of my maiden composers remains worthwhile at least. For now. Not so sure anymore of going streaming only.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 06, 2020, 12:18:22 AM
Things becoming unavailable I can understand (and yes, this is one reason I will always go and buy the things I actually want to keep). And if for some reason a label pulls all its material then this could have a big effect.

But albums on your playlist changing into other albums... that frankly sounds like some kind of error. I don't use Qobuz (they're not available in Australia) but if I were you I would be contacting them rather than writing about it here.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Daverz on September 06, 2020, 12:34:21 AM
Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos CD. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist useless.

Arrrrrrrrgggghghgh!  I hate this sort of thing.  I went looking for examples, and sure enough, Thomson Bax 3 on Chandos, the symphony tracks are only available as samples (greyed out). 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115845424

(On the other hand, I'm not sure if it might not have been that way all along, as I have this on physical disc and wouldn't have looked at it before.)

Odd that Chandos new releases (e.g. the Wilson/Sinfonia of London stuff) are not like this.  I wonder what their policy actually is about what to make only available as samples.  Here's another Parry set of songs with only 5 songs greyed out.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115243121

Hickox's recording of the 1913 A London Symphony, the symphony greyed out:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115990223

Quote
Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!

Sounds like a Qobuz database problem.  Also having used the service for more than a year, I note there are sometimes QC problems with the tracks themselves, particularly truncated tracks.  But that might be the labels' fault.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: MusicTurner on September 06, 2020, 12:52:44 AM
There's no doubt that CDs and LPs will be gradually less available for new releases. But on a personal note, I don't think I'll be joining the streaming trend; I consider myself lucky, having been able to establish a rather satisfying physical collection of music from all ages & also, I am generally less interested in new releases nowadays. Moreover, you still have the second-hand market for collecting. I did try some downloading services like e-music for a while, getting some rare repertoire and then transferring it to CDRs, but I don't find myself listening to those files now.

The only problem with the physical collection would be moving to a location very far away, say to Southern Europe or the like. That would be costly. But I'd still be bringing other, accumulated stuff with me, so expenses would be there anyway.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 02:18:32 AM
Things becoming unavailable I can understand (and yes, this is one reason I will always go and buy the things I actually want to keep). And if for some reason a label pulls all its material then this could have a big effect.

But albums on your playlist changing into other albums... that frankly sounds like some kind of error. I don't use Qobuz (they're not available in Australia) but if I were you I would be contacting them rather than writing about it here.

A third of my 2 main playlists "partially gone" just like that is surely making me re-think it all !

Re the changing of CD, I do not know which CD has been replaced as my tracking beforehand was too sketchy. Now that I have a proper Excel sheet with each playlist, CD, label, and position number within, I'll be able to find out next time it happens. I "think" for one of them, it might have been Maria Joao Pires Vol.1 of Mozart sonatas on Denon. It's been replaced by "Mozart Famous Pieces" by the Concertgebouw chamber Orchestra on Pentatone !
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 06, 2020, 02:31:27 AM
Olivier,

Thank you for warning us about these problems!  Wondering why Chandos changed things at it's end?  My guess would be that they feel that they are not making enough money off of the streams and that they feel that they can make more money off of selling the downloads directly themselves.  Does Qobuz offer the option to purchase downloads too?  If so, at how high-quality of a format?  I hate compressed music myself.  Even on an old iPod touch, I only transferred over music to it that was in Apple's Lossless format.  Uses up more space, I know.

PD
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 02:32:33 AM
Arrrrrrrrgggghghgh!  I hate this sort of thing.  I went looking for examples, and sure enough, Thomson Bax 3 on Chandos, the symphony tracks are only available as samples (greyed out). 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115845424

(On the other hand, I'm not sure if it might not have been that way all along, as I have this on physical disc and wouldn't have looked at it before.)

Odd that Chandos new releases (e.g. the Wilson/Sinfonia of London stuff) are not like this.  I wonder what their policy actually is about what to make only available as samples.  Here's another Parry set of songs with only 5 songs greyed out.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115243121

Hickox's recording of the 1913 A London Symphony, the symphony greyed out:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115990223

Sounds like a Qobuz database problem.  Also having used the service for more than a year, I note there are sometimes QC problems with the tracks themselves, particularly truncated tracks.  But that might be the labels' fault.

It's just really odd and erratic. Chandos' Overtures from the British Isles Vol.1 is now completely greyed out, Vol.2 is still fully available.
If Chandos was running a temporary sale on their website, you would understand such reasoning but that's not the case.

Even Naxos is the same random pattern. I listened to the complete Tubin symphonies set over a few weeks period (33 tracks in full). Only 11 of them full available now.

Just no pattern. I thought maybe it might have to do with how long it had been in your playlist but that doesn't even match either. Over the last 3-4 days, I listened to 2 Volumes of Krommer's CPO cycle and added them to the playlist. Some of the tracks got greyed out Friday and now back in full again today.


Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 02:38:59 AM
Olivier,

Thank you for warning us about these problems!  Wondering why Chandos changed things at it's end?  My guess would be that they feel that they are not making enough money off of the streams and that they feel that they can make more money off of selling the downloads directly themselves.  Does Qobuz offer the option to purchase downloads too?  If so, at how high-quality of a format?  I hate compressed music myself.  Even on an old iPod touch, I only transferred over music to it that was in Apple's Lossless format.  Uses up more space, I know.

PD

That's a possibility re Chandos.

Yes you can buy downloads from Qobuz. All of them are available in CD quality (Lossless 16 bit/44.1 kHz (FLAC, ALAC, WMA, AIFF, WAV)). Some of them are available in High Res (Lossless 24 bits 96 kHz (FLAC, ALAC, WMA, AIFF, WAV)).
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 06, 2020, 02:59:58 AM
To be honest I've thought before that some of your problems with Qobuz are because they are trying to be both a streaming platform and a place you buy downloads.

Apple had some problems when they tried to shift from iTunes to Apple Music, but seem to have sorted this out. And while it's still a little annoying occasionally I generally now don't have any problems being an iTunes customer without ever having been an Apple Music subscriber, apart from relatively discreet prompts offering Apple Music.

But some of your stories from Qobuz sound as if they keep shifting between wanting you to stream things and wanting you to buy things. Rather confusing.

In other words, you might not have some of these issues to the same extent if you used a plain and simple streaming service that wasn't trying to sell you tracks. Deezer, Spotify, or for classical-only Primephonic or Idagio.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 03:18:07 AM
To be honest I've thought before that some of your problems with Qobuz are because they are trying to be both a streaming platform and a place you buy downloads.

Apple had some problems when they tried to shift from iTunes to Apple Music, but seem to have sorted this out. And while it's still a little annoying occasionally I generally now don't have any problems being an iTunes customer without ever having been an Apple Music subscriber, apart from relatively discreet prompts offering Apple Music.

But some of your stories from Qobuz sound as if they keep shifting between wanting you to stream things and wanting you to buy things. Rather confusing.

In other words, you might not have some of these issues to the same extent if you used a plain and simple streaming service that wasn't trying to sell you tracks.

Madiel,
i take it Itunes is for your music library purposes, correct ? and Apple Music for streaming only ? sorry, not an Apple person  ;)  If you are not using Apple Music, which platform do you use instead please ? And what is your experience in terms of availability or disappearing tracks like that ? and in terms of classical music choice ?
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 03:21:00 AM
Deezer, Spotify, or for classical-only Primephonic or Idagio.

Just seen your edit after my reply. Thank you, will have a think and a look at those.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 06, 2020, 03:36:35 AM
Just seen your edit after my reply. Thank you, will have a think and a look at those.

No problem.

For the record, I subscribe to Deezer and Primephonic.

For a specifically classical service, I think Primephonic and Idagio both have merit, with slightly different strengths, and are well worth supporting. Certainly, searching is a LOT more effective because they are services that understand you might want to look up a composer, a performer, a work or an album.

The data and catalogue are not perfect, but they are lot better than what I get for classical on Deezer (and I will always remember with Spotify that the supposed most popular piece for Samuel Barber was "The Barber of Seville"). And with Primephonic I have found they are quick to respond when I point out an error. With Deezer I had been waiting for over 6 months for them to fix a completely scrambled album and then gave up.

So if the main thing you want is classical I would suggest trying both Primephonic and Idagio and seeing which you prefer. Primephonic offers a trial for a couple of weeks, with full service, and then you pay if you want to keep it using it (from memory, it was NOT one of those that just automatically becomes payable, they actually wait until the trial is over to get your credit card). Idagio on the other hand has a slightly limited free mode which you can use for as long as you like, and you pay to get the full service.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Mandryka on September 06, 2020, 03:44:19 AM


Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. (edit: quick count: 17/50 CDs "British" affected, 12/40 "Other" affected). Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos, Toccata and CPO CDs. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist is completely useless.



Either you've been unlucky or I've been lucky. This has happened to me in 10 years or so of use, but not much.





Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!



I can't remember that happening, though I have to say I don't use playlists much and when I do it's via the Logitech Media Server interface.

Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 04:19:32 AM
No problem.

For the record, I subscribe to Deezer and Primephonic.

For a specifically classical service, I think Primephonic and Idagio both have merit, with slightly different strengths, and are well worth supporting. Certainly, searching is a LOT more effective because they are services that understand you might want to look up a composer, a performer, a work or an album.

The data and catalogue are not perfect, but they are lot better than what I get for classical on Deezer (and I will always remember with Spotify that the supposed most popular piece for Samuel Barber was "The Barber of Seville"). And with Primephonic I have found they are quick to respond when I point out an error. With Deezer I had been waiting for over 6 months for them to fix a completely scrambled album and then gave up.

So if the main thing you want is classical I would suggest trying both Primephonic and Idagio and seeing which you prefer. Primephonic offers a trial for a couple of weeks, with full service, and then you pay if you want to keep it using it (from memory, it was NOT one of those that just automatically becomes payable, they actually wait until the trial is over to get your credit card). Idagio on the other hand has a slightly limited free mode which you can use for as long as you like, and you pay to get the full service.

Thank you again, I appreciate the feedback on those options. Had a quick look at Primephonic, same prices as Qobuz, Idagio is cheaper. I think for now, I will stick to Qobuz to run out my extensive explore list as a first step to build a concrete purchase/consideration list. After that, I'll re-assess if full-on streaming is still of viable use for me with those two options.

Whilst impressed by the choice to my areas of interest (Lyrita and others), Qobuz's tagging is being a bit erratic as well. It was a bug bear sometimes (multiples entries of same albums, tagging by performer, not composer, making sorting by releases impossible, etc...).

Now it is a minor bug bear compared to losing track availability ! I guess it is a blessing in disguise that it happened before I plunge down that route more comprehensively. Food for thought definitely. 
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2020, 04:25:55 AM
Either you've been unlucky or I've been lucky. This has happened to me in 10 years or so of use, but not much.

I can't remember that happening, though I have to say I don't use playlists much and when I do it's via the Logitech Media Server interface.

Just pot luck I guess, dependent fully on labels' whim and what your areas of interests are. Thought I'd share to make people aware in case they consider Qobuz.  At least, the timing of it was of "benefit".
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: CRCulver on September 06, 2020, 11:33:54 AM
I ripped the bulk of my collection to FLAC years ago and those CDs have only been gathering dust on the shelf. But when I recently took down some CDs for some reason, I was really amazed by how good and detailed some of the liner notes are. Some of these booklets helped me get more out of music I had long since grown used to, as if I discovered them all over again.

I worry that a lot of insight and useful commentary on pieces is being lost, because while the audio of those old releases might be made available for streaming, the liner notes themselves aren't.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Daverz on September 09, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
Now it's Bis that has greyed out tracks on Qobuz, e.g.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/7318599920283

Also, I can't put the "Studio" quality download for this album in my cart at Chandos.net:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/BI%202028
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Old San Antone on September 09, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
I tried Qobuz but unsubscribed. 

1) too expensive
2) too much music I wanted was missing
3) purported high(er) audio quality was undetectable by me

I like Spotify

I have recently begun a extended listening journey of Mozart's Die Zauberflöte  and found dozens of recordings, all of the ones people have recommended as well as a number they didn't.  This is an invaluable service since I would never purchase these recordings just to try them out.  Complaints about the lack of CD booklets or librettos is easily fixed by a quick Internet search, or purchasing (as I did) a short "guide to the opera".  I have plenty of books to supplement the recordings I wish to listen to and certainly do not need to purchase a CD for that purpose.

Streaming has completely satisfied my need to hear a wide variety of music, and to spend less in the process.

Any purchases these days are for those rare box sets which I really want to have on my shelf, some high quality vinyl, or for those recordings which are unavailable to stream - if I really can't live without hearing the music (which is a rare thing).
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Papy Oli on September 09, 2020, 12:05:43 PM
Now it's Bis that has greyed out tracks on Qobuz, e.g.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/7318599920283


A few of them and all...just had a look at my exploring playlist...Magnard, Tubin, Wiren...A good handful of CPO's as well.

I think I'll drop Qobuz in the next month of two once i have sampled the 250-odd CDs I have left in that list. By then, that will be 99% of the maiden composers I wanted to sample done with and I will have quite a substantial potential purchase list (already large) to dip into over the next few months, from stuff explored and liked. I'll see how I feel about continuing a sole streaming platform then.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Brewski on September 11, 2020, 11:07:58 AM
I have not used services like Qobuz, Idagio, Bandcamp, or Spotify (yet), mostly because live performances remain my highest priority. With the advent of COVID, many musicians have opted to do livestreams -- either on YouTube, Facebook, or on their own channels -- and for the moment, this is proving an excellent substitute for live concerts. (Granted, some afternoons the whole thing just makes me sad, when it looks like in-person events in the United States likely won't be returning until sometime next year.)

But with so much available (just bought a ticket for a November concert by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra), at the moment, I'm satisfied. I do have a much-reduced CD collection (maybe 2,000), but haven't listened to any of them in months.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2020, 04:02:30 AM
I have not used services like Qobuz, Idagio, Bandcamp, or Spotify (yet), mostly because live performances remain my highest priority. With the advent of COVID, many musicians have opted to do livestreams -- either on YouTube, Facebook, or on their own channels -- and for the moment, this is proving an excellent substitute for live concerts. (Granted, some afternoons the whole thing just makes me sad, when it looks like in-person events in the United States likely won't be returning until sometime next year.)

But with so much available (just bought a ticket for a November concert by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra), at the moment, I'm satisfied. I do have a much-reduced CD collection (maybe 2,000), but haven't listened to any of them in months.

--Bruce
Know what you mean about feeling sad about all of the current changes--including missing live events.  Wondering how *musicians are able to make a living these days?  And all of the other people effected too like, for example, sound and lighting pros, theaters, ticket sellers, etc.?
*particularly those with, shall we say, 'shallow pockets'?

PD

p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2020, 04:22:13 AM
p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?

This would not be lawful. I know people do it, but for all the laws I know, you're not allowed to keep a rip if you no longer own the CD (and that's in the places where ripping itself is legal).
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Brewski on September 12, 2020, 04:25:44 PM
p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?

Sure, and no, ripping wasn't the reason. Recently I made a major move, and took a good, hard look at shelves of maybe 6,000-8,000 CDs. Most of them were gathering dust. I approached one of the few remaining bricks-and-mortar stores left in NYC, but they weren't interested. My collection was (and is) heavy on 20th and 21st-century works, and these days, you can't even give them away (e.g., to a music school library).

So I saved about 1,000-2,000, being pretty ruthless in culling.

Until COVID arrived, I was hearing so much live music, anyway (2-3 concerts a week), that I didn't really listen to recordings that often, except for new releases.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Holden on September 12, 2020, 10:45:00 PM
This would not be lawful. I know people do it, but for all the laws I know, you're not allowed to keep a rip if you no longer own the CD (and that's in the places where ripping itself is legal).

As far as Australia is concerned I have to disagree. You bought the music and therefore paid the royalty. You can store this any way that you want. What is probably illegal is broadcasting it publicly, even in a private venue but everyone does it any way. At the end of the last century CD manufacturers brought in DRM to try and prevent ripping. The immediate response from the software companies quickly made DRM obsolete.

This all moot today anyway. The majority of people now stream their music and the royalties are paid back to artists either via free version advertising or paying a subscription as you would do with Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Prime, to name a few.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2020, 11:14:22 PM
As far as Australia is concerned I have to disagree. You bought the music and therefore paid the royalty. You can store this any way that you want.

How is this inconsistent with that I said? This is the Australian law. Yes, you can store in another format.

What you can NOT do is then recoup the money that you paid while keeping that copy in another format. Otherwise, it's not a question of whether you paid the royalty, it's whether you and your 9 friends paid 10 royalties or just paid 1 and passed the original disc between yourselves so that you effectively got 10 people got 10 discs for the price of 1. The notion that because YOU paid the royalty, you can then act to deprive the copyright owner of getting more royalties from others is just wrong.

If you paid for one copy, then it's not okay for you to create a situation where multiple people now have copies. The permission is only to have multiple formats for yourself. If you sell the music, then you don't get to simultaneously keep the music. You cannot "store" and "get rid of" at the same time. The Copyright Act has quite explicit statements to the effect that the exception for making these sorts of copies stops applying if you sell or hire the original.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Holden on September 13, 2020, 10:37:08 PM
Hello Madiel, I never said that I sold my CDs so I'm not sure what the issue is here? The point I'm making is that you can legally back up your CDs onto a HDD without any fear of penalty. If you can show me Australian legislation that says I can't then I will look at it.
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Madiel on September 13, 2020, 11:47:56 PM
Hello Madiel, I never said that I sold my CDs so I'm not sure what the issue is here? The point I'm making is that you can legally back up your CDs onto a HDD without any fear of penalty. If you can show me Australian legislation that says I can't then I will look at it.

Sigh. Maybe if you actually read the context of my statement before leaping in as if I was talking about you????

You've literally jumped in to say that I'm wrong and then said exactly the same thing that I said. And now you're STILL not reading what I actually said.

For the third time: you're allowed to back up your CDs. I really have said that three times now. You're not allowed to then get rid of the CDs. For one thing that's not what a "back up" is.

It's section 109A of the Copyright Act. Or you could just read either of these:

http://www.musicrights.com.au/fact-sheets/formatshifting/

https://www.communications.gov.au/documents/short-guide-copyright
Title: Re: The impact of music streaming services
Post by: Holden on September 14, 2020, 09:09:55 AM
OK, thanks for clearing that up for me.