GMG Classical Music Forum

Announcements => GMG News => Topic started by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2020, 02:35:59 PM

Title: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2020, 02:35:59 PM
If the moderators take this poll down, then you’ve chosen to silence what could be a potentially fundamental issue in regards to the forum’s future. Please let this poll determine whether to allow politics in this forum or ban them altogether. I realize that it’s not an easy issue to deal with and make any hard decisions about, but I feel, and I’m speaking strictly for myself, that more members here are participating or worried about the political threads than actually contributing to what I would assume we’re all here for: the discussion and sharing of music. I say enough is enough, which may not be a popular opinion, but it’s how I feel.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: T. D. on November 22, 2020, 02:46:07 PM
Agreed. Of the other 2 music forums on which I spend time, one long ago banned politics (not just threads, but posts invoking the subject) after initially allowing it, and the other allows only music discussions.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2020, 02:55:31 PM
Agreed. Of the other 2 music forums on which I spend time, one long ago banned politics (not just threads, but posts invoking the subject) after initially allowing it, and the other allows only music discussions.

I do realize that in some musical discussions politics can be brought up, but it shouldn’t be one’s entire focus while they’re on GMG. Again, I’m speaking only for myself, but if I was a new member here and I see how much focus politics has been on this forum, then I would probably find another forum to join. Back when I joined GMG (10 years ago I believe), the discussion of politics was minimal and it was such an enjoyable experience, especially since I was just coming off another music forum. Now, many of the veteran members can rarely be found in the music threads (and some of them have left altogether and for good reasons).
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
If the moderators take this poll down, then you’ve chosen to silence what could be a potentially fundamental issue in regards to the forum’s future. Please let this poll determine whether to allow politics in this forum or ban them altogether. I realize that it’s not an easy issue to deal with and make any hard decisions about, but I feel, and I’m speaking strictly for myself, that more members here are participating or worried about the political threads than actually contributing to what I would assume we’re all here for: the discussion and sharing of music. I say enough is enough, which may not be a popular opinion, but it’s how I feel.

Tell you what: PM he Admin and make an argument to him. We've already been down that road. It's his decision to make, not ours.

FWIW, we are all in favor of no politics.

Also FWIW, be careful what you wish for; posts will disappear in a hurry, no questions asked.

Gurn
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2020, 03:27:47 PM
Tell you what: PM he Admin and make an argument to him. We've already been down that road. It's his decision to make, not ours.

FWIW, we are all in favor of no politics.

Also FWIW, be careful what you wish for; posts will disappear in a hurry, no questions asked.

Gurn

Here’s a question in response to this post, if all of you are in favor of no political threads, why haven’t you messaged Rob? You’re a moderator. If it’s true what you say that every moderator feels that political threads should be banned, then why haven’t you guys taken it out with him? All I can do is post a poll and get people’s opinion on the topic. Don’t turn the issue back on me and say I should PM him. I’m just a peon here, Gurn.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2020, 06:03:21 PM
Here’s a question in response to this post, if all of you are in favor of no political threads, why haven’t you messaged Rob? You’re a moderator. If it’s true what you say that every moderator feels that political threads should be banned, then why haven’t you guys taken it out with him? All I can do is post a poll and get people’s opinion on the topic. Don’t turn the issue back on me and say I should PM him. I’m just a peon here, Gurn.

This is an ongoing discussion for many years now. You certainly have to realize we have talked to him about this, and more than once, but he has been adamant that there should be a venue here for discussing politics, since we are all grownups and know how to avoid things we don't really like. Not a lot else we can say or do, it's his board, after all.

GB
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2020, 06:14:28 PM
This is an ongoing discussion for many years now. You certainly have to realize we have talked to him about this, and more than once, but he has been adamant that there should be a venue here for discussing politics, since we are all grownups and know how to avoid things we don't really like. Not a lot else we can say or do, it's his board, after all.

GB

If this poll does, indeed, show a favoring number of people who think political threads should be banned, then wouldn’t this stand to reason that the feedback left would make him reconsider his position? I understand this is his forum and he has a right to say what stays/what goes, but if people are sick and tired of these political threads dominating what is supposed to be a music forum and these threads have caused members who were valuable contributors to leave never to return, I would think he would be concerned about that, but if he doesn’t give a damn about who stays or who goes, then maybe he needs to relinquish the rights to the forum and hand it over to someone who will actually listen to what the people are saying about it.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: SimonNZ on November 22, 2020, 07:58:40 PM
I predict that in the near future there will be a less pressing need to try and make sense of the political world and this question will be largely irrelevant or at any rate such threads will be much less heated and attract far fewer politics-only posters.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 22, 2020, 11:24:20 PM
Of course, one can decide to keep the Politics/religion discussions here.
If so, I would suggest a more strict moderating though.
Members who do not follow the rules, should get a warning. And after 3 violations, they should be banned. Including me. I violated the rules yesterday. Only 2 to go for a ban. Bad luck, Sterna. Better behave. If not: good riddance.

This also goes for those who violate the rules in the music threads, of course.

All the temporary locks on heated topics, the deletion of a few posts... it's not going to help one bit.

Only if you manage to get rid of the trolls, you can have a respectful and civilized discussion, no matter what the subject is.

I voted for a ban on politics, because I think there are plenty of opportunities to discuss politics and religion elsewhere on the internet. On this music board (and on others) it has been a proven cause for unpleasant to very unpleasant behaviour. If people, for whatever reason, are tired of talking about music and prefer other subjects to talk about, let them go elsewhere. And leave the music boards to people who want to talk about music. Because that's where they came here for.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 22, 2020, 11:30:18 PM
I predict that in the near future there will be a less pressing need to try and make sense of the political world and this question will be largely irrelevant or at any rate such threads will be much less heated and attract far fewer politics-only posters.

Maybe. Maybe not.
The past has proven that it's very difficult and tricky to predict the future. ;)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 01:38:32 AM
Reading some of the posts in this thread one would get the impression that politics has completely overtaken GMG and there's no thread or topic which has escaped its nefarious influence. Each time a new member registers s/h sees nothing but politics, while veteran members are exasperated by the proliferation of political threads in their "Show new replies to your posts" list.

The truth is actually very different: there is only one single topic dedicated to politics (and whose title is very specific about it) located in a thread specifically dedicated to discussing "anything, music excepted". It really is very easy for someone who is not interested in politics to avoid reading it.
 
Actually, the vast majority of GMGers have never posted about politics and have never complained about politics being discussed; they simply ignored it. There is only a very limited number of people who regularly post in that topic and all but one post regularly in music-related topics as well.

And if this board should be exclusively focused on music, then why not ban discussing literature, movies, food and beverages as well?

The only real problem is when things get overheated, but even this is not such a frequent ocurrence as one might think by reading some of the posts in this thread. A temporary locking is a very apt way to let things cool off naturally and even if I don't always like it I accept it as unavoidable.

I voted NO.








Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 01:41:10 AM
[Rob] has been adamant that there should be a venue here for discussing politics, since we are all grownups and know how to avoid things we don't really like.

Yes.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: ritter on November 23, 2020, 02:50:01 AM
Reading some of the posts in this thread one would get the impression that politics has completely overtaken GMG and there's no thread or topic which has escaped its nefarious influence. Each time a new member registers s/h sees nothing but politics, while veteran members are exasperated by the proliferation of political threads in their "Show new replies to your posts" list.

The truth is actually very different: there is only one single topic dedicated to politics (and whose title is very specific about it) located in a thread specifically dedicated to discussing "anything, music excepted". It really is very easy for someone who is not interested in politics to avoid reading it.
 
Actually, the vast majority of GMGers have never posted about politics and have never complained about politics being discussed; they simply ignored it. There is only a very limited number of people who regularly post in that topic and all but one post regularly in music-related topics as well.

And if this board should be exclusively focused on music, then why not ban discussing literature, movies, food and beverages as well?

The only real problem is when things get overheated, but even this is not such a frequent ocurrence as one might think by reading some of the posts in this thread. A temporary locking is a very apt way to let things cool off naturally and even if I don't always like it I accept it as unavoidable.

I voted NO.
+1 to the above. And, if a member takes offense or whatever due to posts in the Politics thread, he can perfectly choose simply to ignore it. I for one (even if I rarely post in that thread) do see value in learning about the opinions of posters--both American and foreign--accross the political spectrum, sometimes very substantiated ones, on other occasions outlandish and bizarre. And, of course, there's the odd member who rarely if ever posts in any thread but the Politics one, and can be seen as a troll; but that seems unavoidable in an open forum like ours, and can be dealt with (actually, IIRC, has been dealt with) on an individual basis if required, and wouldn't IMHO justify eliminating the discussion altogether.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Iota on November 23, 2020, 05:11:42 AM
I voted no. I would find the forum a poorer one without the politic threads, which are sometimes are very informative and interesting, there are a few keen political minds on here (amongst which mine certainly doesn't feature). For me the political element is a distinctive feature of GMG. The playground stuff is regrettable at times I agree. Perhaps the political threads could be hived off somewhere so they don't appear in the new posts lists?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 06:13:55 AM
I voted no. I would find the forum a poorer one without the politic threads, which are sometimes are very informative and interesting, there are a few keen political minds on here (amongst which mine certainly doesn't feature). For me the political element is a distinctive feature of GMG. The playground stuff is regrettable at times I agree. Perhaps the political threads could be hived off somewhere so they don't appear in the new posts lists?

I have been told that the latter solution is used at the Talk Classical board.
Maybe that will work for the more sensitive souls among us (like me), who get depressed and need a large quantity of sedatives after logging in and being confronted with the huge amount of new USA Politics balderdash.

I'm still happy though that I voted YES.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 06:43:47 AM
Looks like for some people discussing politics is like watching porn: so embarassing an activity that it must be hidden from others.  :D

You don't like politics? Don't go to that topic. It's really as simple as that.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Iota on November 23, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
I have been told that the latter solution is used at the Talk Classical board.
Maybe that will work for the more sensitive souls among us (like me), who get depressed and need a large quantity of sedatives after logging in and being confronted with the huge amount of new USA Politics balderdash.

Yes, I do understand. Even though I occasionally partake in and enjoy them, it's also a bit boring to see a whole slew of word games taking up new posts lists, and wouldn't mind if they were put somewhere separate, where one could actively seek them out if one chose. Of course I have no idea if this is technically possible though.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 07:26:45 AM
Of course, one can decide to keep the Politics/religion discussions here.
If so, I would suggest a more strict moderating though.
Members who do not follow the rules, should get a warning. And after 3 violations, they should be banned. Including me. I violated the rules yesterday. Only 2 to go for a ban. Bad luck, Sterna. Better behave. If not: good riddance.

This also goes for those who violate the rules in the music threads, of course.

All the temporary locks on heated topics, the deletion of a few posts... it's not going to help one bit.

Only if you manage to get rid of the trolls, you can have a respectful and civilized discussion, no matter what the subject is.

I voted for a ban on politics, because I think there are plenty of opportunities to discuss politics and religion elsewhere on the internet. On this music board (and on others) it has been a proven cause for unpleasant to very unpleasant behaviour. If people, for whatever reason, are tired of talking about music and prefer other subjects to talk about, let them go elsewhere. And leave the music boards to people who want to talk about music. Because that's where they came here for.

But the fact that you would have to resort to school yard antics only reinforces my point. Also, banning members who violate forum rules when they step out of line seems like a bridge too far to me, especially when this kind of behavior, which is all over the political threads could have easily been avoided had there been a ban on politics from start. Unfortunately, I’ve seen it far too many times that civil discussions cannot actually happen for long periods of time in the political threads.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 07:42:34 AM
Yes, I do understand. Even though I occasionally partake in and enjoy them, it's also a bit boring to see a whole slew of word games taking up new posts lists, and wouldn't mind if they were put somewhere separate, where one could actively seek them out if one chose. Of course I have no idea if this is technically possible though.

It depends on the software, I guess.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: greg on November 23, 2020, 07:50:45 AM
Unfortunately, I’ve seen it far too many times that civil discussions cannot actually happen for long periods of time in the political threads.
Yeah, the problem is that some people have their self-identity wrapped up in politics, so attacking their beliefs is like attacking them personally, so they feel justified in attacking back personally. Political threads could avoid getting toxic if you just happened to have a bunch of people who have an interest in politics but no attachment to it.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 08:22:07 AM
But the fact that you would have to resort to school yard antics only reinforces my point. Also, banning members who violate forum rules when they step out of line seems like a bridge too far to me, especially when this kind of behavior, which is all over the political threads could have easily been avoided had there been a ban on politics from start. Unfortunately, I’ve seen it far too many times that civil discussions cannot actually happen for long periods of time in the political threads.

If members behave like children, as I did yesterday (and apologies to all the well behaved children around the world), then I see no problem with 'school yard antics'. Otherwise the rules are completely useless. Deleting abusive posts seems to have no effect at all. It's just a matter of time before the circus starts again. Already after a handful of new posts in the unlocked USA politics thread, a member 'advised' another member to clear off there. Of course, the small and informative conversation between them was deleted by a mod afterwards. Now we can just wait what tomorrow will bring. Music lovers log in, and may witness a front page with another fresh amount of very informative and interesting posts about Trump and his friends & foes, including all kinds of trolling, mockery and disrespect. Great fun at a classical music board.

It's discouraging.

I have a few online classical music friends. We share our thoughts about music through a very old-fashioned medium called e-mail.
I suggested earlier this year that we should join GMG. They laughed, and wished me lots of fun in the Asylum, as one of them called it.
I can't prove it with stats, but I guess that many potentential classical music lovers, who come here to lurk around before they join in, are greatly amazed by the fact that Donald Trump seems to be the most popular composer around here. It's only one thread, but the front page keeps being contaminated with this subject. And when those lurkers start to read the thread, then I don't think that joining the 'Good Music Guide Forum' is getting more attractive to them.

I don't blame them.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 08:25:24 AM
If members behave like children, as I did yesterday (and apologies to all the well behaved children around the world), then I see no problem with 'school yard antics'. Otherwise the rules are completely useless. Deleting abusive posts seems to have no effect at all. It's just a matter of time before the circus starts again. Already after a handful of new posts in the unlocked USA politics thread, a member 'advised' another member to clear off there. Of course, the small and informative conversation between them was deleted by a mod afterwards. Now we can just wait what tomorrow will bring. Music lovers log in, and may witness a front page with another fresh amount of very informative and interesting posts about Trump and his friends & foes, including all kinds of trolling, mockery and disrespect. Great fun at a classical music board.

It's discouraging.

I have a few online classical music friends. We share our thoughts about music through a very old-fashioned medium called e-mail.
I suggested earlier this year that we should join GMG. They laughed, and wished me lots of fun in the Asylum, as one of them called it.
I can't prove it with stats, but I guess that many potentential classical music lovers, who come here to lurk around before they join in, are greatly amazed by the fact that Donald Trump seems to be the most popular composer around here. It's only one thread, but the front page keeps being contaminated with this subject. And when those lurkers start to read the thread, then I don't think that joining the 'Good Music Guide Forum' is getting more attractive to them.

I don't blame them.

Good point.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 08:48:06 AM
If members behave like children, as I did yesterday (and apologies to all the well behaved children around the world), then I see no problem with 'school yard antics'. Otherwise the rules are completely useless. Deleting abusive posts seems to have no effect at all. It's just a matter of time before the circus starts again. Already after a handful of new posts in the unlocked USA politics thread, a member 'advised' another member to clear off there. Of course, the small and informative conversation between them was deleted by a mod afterwards. Now we can just wait what tomorrow will bring. Music lovers log in, and may witness a front page with another fresh amount of very informative and interesting posts about Trump and his friends & foes, including all kinds of trolling, mockery and disrespect. Great fun at a classical music board.

It's discouraging.

I have a few online classical music friends. We share our thoughts about music through a very old-fashioned medium called e-mail.
I suggested earlier this year that we should join GMG. They laughed, and wished me lots of fun in the Asylum, as one of them called it.
I can't prove it with stats, but I guess that many potentential classical music lovers, who come here to lurk around before they join in, are greatly amazed by the fact that Donald Trump seems to be the most popular composer around here. It's only one thread, but the front page keeps being contaminated with this subject. And when those lurkers start to read the thread, then I don't think that joining the 'Good Music Guide Forum' is getting more attractive to them.

I don't blame them.

You’re essentially echoing what I said in my first couple of posts in this thread. New membership seems to be at all-time low here and I do wonder what effect the political threads/discussions have on their decision to go any further than signing up? From the votes in this poll so far, it seems that there are more people unaffected by the political threads and don’t mind that they’re on GMG. We’ll see where the votes go, but there does seem to be a silent minority who do feel political threads shouldn’t be any part of what this forum is about.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 08:52:49 AM
And if this board should be exclusively focused on music, then why not ban discussing literature, movies, food and beverages as well?

The reason these threads shouldn’t be banned is because seldom does talking about wine or the latest iteration of Doctor Who cause people to insult each other and put the other down in a hateful, venomous manner. Let’s just say, hypothetically, you just called me a bigot and a two-faced lackey to the Republican party for giving an opinion on a certain topic, then why in the world would I not take that personally? You don’t see this kind of behavior when you discuss how to make a hollandaise sauce.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 08:55:51 AM
I don't like limited forums. I like to be on a few forums only. If only a few things are allowed on each forum I need to on a dozen forums to discuss about everything I want. And each forum has it's own members. It's so stupid to be able to discuss with Karl Henning about Beethoven, but not Bernie Sanders. So stupid. What's the point of getting to know people online if moderators decide what you can communicate with these people.

Are these forums the new public aquare or not? If not, WHERE are the new public squares?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 09:00:40 AM
I don't like limited forums. I like to be on a few forums only. If only a few things are allowed on each forum I need to on a dozen forums to discuss about everything I want. And each forum has it's own members. It's so stupid to be able to discuss with Karl Henning about Beethoven, but not Bernie Sanders. So stupid. What's the point of getting to know people online if moderators decide what you can communicate with these people.

Are these forums the new public aquare or not? If not, WHERE are the new public squares?

But the basis of your contributions to this forum, 71 dB, in the past year, have been in the political threads. You rarely talk about music and when you do talk about music, you complain that nobody talks to you after you make a post.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 09:21:41 AM
The reason these threads shouldn’t be banned is because seldom does talking about wine or the latest iteration of Doctor Who cause people to insult each other and put the other down in a hateful, venomous manner.

John, I suggest you ask moderator Knight66 (Mike) what the absolutely worst thread ever in terms of insults, abuse and hatred was about. You're in for a big surprise.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 09:32:03 AM
But the basis of your contributions to this forum, 71 dB, in the past year, have been in the political threads. You rarely talk about music and when you do talk about music, you complain that nobody talks to you after you make a post.

Trump changed everything for me. I had very little interest in the US politics until 4 years ago. This year has been extreme in the US politics. Election year. Year of Covid-19. Year of BLM protests. Insane! It's hard to imagine anyone not interested of politics in the current World!
That's why I hope Biden makes the US politics again so utterly boring I don't want to follow it at all!! Boring centrist corporate status quo politics like it was during Obama's eight years.

When I post about politics, I gets tons of response. When I post about music I rarely get anything so what's the point?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 09:48:20 AM
Trump changed everything for me. I had very little interest in the US politics until 4 years ago. This year has been extreme in the US politics. Election year. Year of Covid-19. Year of BLM protests. Insane! It's hard to imagine anyone not interested of politics in the current World!
That's why I hope Biden makes the US politics again so utterly boring I don't want to follow it at all!! Boring centrist corporate status quo politics like it was during Obama's eight years.

When I post about politics, I gets tons of response. When I post about music I rarely get anything so what's the point?

The point is, that this is a music board.

John, I suggest you ask moderator Knight66 (Mike) what the absolutely worst thread ever in terms of insults, abuse and hatred was about. You're in for a big surprise.

Maybe about music. I would not be surprised. I have been on (non-moderated) platforms where even death threats were thrown at each other, only about classical music and the way certain music should be performed. It caused religion-like discussions with extremist utterings. Disgusting. But it was in news groups without moderating, so nothing happened. Well, let's just say that more and more people left, so that there was no one left to be insulted, either.

But when people insult each other on moderated forums about classical music topics, it's at least about the subject where this board is meant to be about. And if you'd ask me how those abusive people in music-related topics should be treated, I would say: the same way as I suggested earlier. Warn them once, twice and then ban them on their third offense. What's the point of mocking, insults and hatred about whatever topic anyway? The rules say: we don't want any of that. So act accordingly, and ban the abusers. No matter what the thread is about.

If you don't want to be treated as in Kindergarten, then don't act as if you are in Kindergarten. Apologies again, kids.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 09:52:06 AM
You’re essentially echoing what I said in my first couple of posts in this thread. New membership seems to be at all-time low here and I do wonder what effect the political threads/discussions have on their decision to go any further than signing up? From the votes in this poll so far, it seems that there are more people unaffected by the political threads and don’t mind that they’re on GMG. We’ll see where the votes go, but there does seem to be a silent minority who do feel political threads shouldn’t be any part of what this forum is about.

Yes, I'm more or less echoing, so we agree. ;)

Early november though, in a different (now closed) thread, I already said the same.

I also said there that I can live perfectly well without a board like this.
So, if I keep on feeling discouraged because of that Good Music Guide front page filled with politics-related topics, I just quit.
There are more important things in life than online talk about classical music. And I still have my e-mail friends to chat with.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: greg on November 23, 2020, 10:15:19 AM
John, I suggest you ask moderator Knight66 (Mike) what the absolutely worst thread ever in terms of insults, abuse and hatred was about. You're in for a big surprise.
Was it a thread M Forever was involved in years ago?
That dude was super toxic, it made the forum almost unreadable for a while for me.
It just colored every thread with a tone of insufferable arrogance and contempt, made reading stuff to be a drag.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 10:29:07 AM
Was it a thread M Forever was involved in years ago?

I don't know but it's quite possible. Anyway, the topic was Haydn's string quartets.  :D

Quote

That dude was super toxic[...]
It just colored every thread with a tone of insufferable arrogance and contempt

AFAIK, he's the only person ever to be banned from GMG.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 10:32:10 AM
There are more important things in life than online talk about classical music.

Agreed. Tbh, I tried several times to quit GMG or at least to drastically cut the amount of time I spend here, but I failed miserably. I think I am addicted to GMG.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 10:33:10 AM
I don't know but it's quite possible. Anyway, the topic was Haydn's string quartets.  :D
[...]

Well, apart from USA politics, that would be the only subject about which I would get very offensive and abusive and spiteful and hateful and everything.
So I completely understand.

>:D

(And apologies for yesterday.)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 10:38:39 AM
(And apologies for yesterday.)

If you apologize to me, I have no idea why you would do that. I can't remember anything insulting coming from you towards me and I'm not in the habit of considering disagreement with me as a personal insult.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: steve ridgway on November 23, 2020, 10:39:42 AM
There are more important things in life than online talk about classical music.

Oh I don’t know. Music gives me a great deal of pleasure, why not talk about it?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 10:40:38 AM
Trump changed everything for me. I had very little interest in the US politics until 4 years ago. This year has been extreme in the US politics. Election year. Year of Covid-19. Year of BLM protests. Insane! It's hard to imagine anyone not interested of politics in the current World!
That's why I hope Biden makes the US politics again so utterly boring I don't want to follow it at all!! Boring centrist corporate status quo politics like it was during Obama's eight years.

When I post about politics, I gets tons of response. When I post about music I rarely get anything so what's the point?

I have never had much interest in politics and it was actually rather rare for me to make several posts in the US politics thread, but that seems to have passed. Music is of greater concern of mine, because, at the end of the day, whether the world comes to an end or simply the human population becomes extinct, it’s the one thing that hasn’t betrayed me. Think about that for a second.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 10:41:46 AM
John, I suggest you ask moderator Knight66 (Mike) what the absolutely worst thread ever in terms of insults, abuse and hatred was about. You're in for a big surprise.

Yeah, I have no idea what that would be, Andrei, but the consistency of ugliness in the political threads is still running rampant.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: ritter on November 23, 2020, 10:42:13 AM
Since we’re at it, I propose that any post denigrating  e.g. the music of Pierre Boulez, or praising, let’s say, the music of Chopin, be considered trolling, and be deleted automatically and immediately, with no prior notice and no questions asked.  :D

I’m not a member of that other classical music forum so often mentioned here, but from what I’ve read (and has sometime been commented here), even if there’s apparently no politics there, music discussions often degenerate into the unpleasant and the ad hominem, and I understand members interested in some areas of the repertoire have been forced out (so to speak).

The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AFAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 10:44:56 AM
The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AKAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 10:48:16 AM
Oh I don’t know. Music gives me a great deal of pleasure, why not talk about it?

Lol.
Sure.

Let's talk about it here then, and let's talk about politics on other boards. Let's face it: there is a massive amount of online platforms about politics. Why ruin the mood here?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 23, 2020, 10:51:43 AM
I don't think it really matters whether the forum allows politics or not. That is not the real problem.

I would say it this way: Any forum needs a healthy environment. Regardless of the topic, if that environment is maintained, there will be no issues. This means that personal attacks, trolling, etc (basically any violation from the list forum rules ) will not be permitted. The degree of this 'moderation' can be argued, but the overall balance still has to be maintained. If that balance is not held (meaning that members are attacked, members do not feel safe in their postings, members clearly violate rules with no consequences, etc.) then there will be negative repercussions for that forum. I believe that we are out of balance.

That said, the past is the past. We can always start fresh today and learn from the past to make the improvements we need to make today and into the future.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:01:30 AM
Since we’re at it, I propose that any post denigrating  e.g. the music of Pierre Boulez, or praising, let’s say, the music of Chopin, be considered trolling, and be deleted automatically and immediately, with no prior notice and no questions asked.  :D

I’m not a member of that other classical music forum so often mentioned here, but from what I’ve read (and has sometime been commented here), even if there’s apparently no politics there, music discussions often degenerate into the unpleasant and the ad hominem, and I understand members interested in some areas of the repertoire have been forced out (so to speak).

The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AFAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.

An excellent counterpoint, mi amigo.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 11:04:39 AM
The point is, that this is a music board.

This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery


What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

I have never had much interest in politics and it was actually rather rare for me to make several posts in the US politics thread, but that seems to have passed. Music is of greater concern of mine, because, at the end of the day, whether the world comes to an end or simply the human population becomes extinct, it’s the one thing that hasn’t betrayed me. Think about that for a second.

Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
I don't think it really matters whether the forum allows politics or not. That is not the real problem.

I would say it this way: Any forum needs a healthy environment. Regardless of the topic, if that environment is maintained, there will be no issues. This means that personal attacks, trolling, etc (basically any violation from the list forum rules ) will not be permitted. The degree of this 'moderation' can be argued, but the overall balance still has to be maintained. If that balance is not held (meaning that members are attacked, members do not feel safe in their postings, members clearly violate rules with no consequences, etc.) then there will be negative repercussions for that forum. I believe that we are out of balance.

That said, the past is the past. We can always start fresh today and learn from the past to make the improvements we need to make today and into the future.

Have you actually read through the political threads, Neal? The amount of vehemence in those threads is enough for someone who is new to this forum to never want to post again or continue participating. Moderators can slap the wrists of members who violate forum rules, but this isn’t enough to end the needless barrage of insults from one member to another in those threads, which will without a doubt in my mind continue if political ‘discussion’ is involved.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:08:14 AM
This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery


What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

A solid opinion.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 11:12:25 AM
Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.

Okay, this makes zero sense to me. I’m interested in a wide range of music and not just ‘whatever I’m into right now’. I love Fauré, by the way, and that’s great that you’re listening to his music, especially those exquisite solo piano works. Anyway, ‘what’s it to me’? Ummm....we’re on a music forum and we’re here to post about what we’re listening to and share with each other. If you’re not interested in talking about music, then you may want go join a political forum.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:14:23 AM
I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

I'm very glad for the community here, very glad that John, e.g. has returned. Glad for the kibitzing on this thread/poll.

Keep cool, friends!
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 23, 2020, 11:20:16 AM
Have you actually read through the political threads, Neal? The amount of vehemence in those threads is enough for someone who is new to this forum to never want to post again or continue participating. Moderators can slap the wrists of members who violate forum rules, but this isn’t enough to end the needless barrage of insults from one member to another in those threads, which will without a doubt in my mind continue if political ‘discussion’ is involved.
Yes, I have. And the behavior that is allowed to continue there is one of the reasons I have stepped back from posting on the forum (The other main reason is the way in which Scarpia left the forum (before his limited return)). I agree that slapping the wrists is insufficient if the behavior continues or escalates. It is even worse when we have members openly admitting that they enjoy provoking other members. If there are no consequences for this behavior, it will simply continue.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 11:23:01 AM
This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery


What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

[...]

Valid points.
And if someone joins this board because of these topics, well, I would find that weird, too.
Isn't it strange though, that the death of Sean Connery and 'darn cats' do not lead to personal attacks, disrespect, mocking and trolling?

Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.

Maybe Fauré and Autechre are not of interest to me. But others might be very interested. You and I are not the only members here.
Besides that: I can get inspired by posts about music, and what other members here are enjoying. That's one of the main reasons I became a member here.

We have been through this before, but if politics is the main reason for you to participate on a music board, and you really think that other members have no interest in what you say or think about music at all, then I would suggest that you join a political board. To be honest, if I had the same ideas about music and talking about music as you, I would never ever think of joining a music board. No offense meant by the way.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Brewski on November 23, 2020, 11:24:25 AM
The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AFAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.

Some good observations here, especially the bold part. I often mention GMG to friends (positively) as an example of "old school social media," which at this point, it is. Many people, including me, spend time elsewhere on sites that simply didn't exist at the time GMG appeared. Given the now-intense competition for everyone's online attention (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and dozens of others), it is a bit of a credit to the denizens here that the board has actually lasted as long as it has. I have developed some close friendships as a result of this board.

And a reminder that this board is funded and maintained by a single person, who actually rarely even participates here. And it's not cheap, either: years ago Rob was shelling out around $1,000 annually to keep things going. And privately, Rob sets a great example, too, as a citizen: He participates in helicopter rescue efforts during fires and other calamities. Why he hasn't pulled the plug on GMG years ago is a mystery, but I don't ask, because I'm grateful. (Since it's Thanksgiving, after all.)

My two cents: It's all-too-easy to ignore any thread(s) one wishes. I personally roll my eyes at the threads devoted to a single word, two words, three words, posts in iambic pentameter (OK, that one's a joke), or others. But many people here find those entertaining.

We are moderating the new political thread more quickly, and with a little more liberal use of the "Delete" function. It's not a task anyone likes, and no one will be completely happy with the decisions. (And further, adults should be able to moderate themselves.) But I'd like to think that we're able to negotiate the sometimes tricky balance between tolerance and censorship. Our goal is to have a peaceful community.

Last:
Enjoy Some Music Today

--Bruce
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 11:26:22 AM
If you apologize to me, I have no idea why you would do that. I can't remember anything insulting coming from you towards me and I'm not in the habit of considering disagreement with me as a personal insult.

I was trolling. Which I should not have done.
(And the mods obviously agreed with that. That's why the posts got deleted.)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 11:44:22 AM
Some good observations here, especially the bold part. I often mention GMG to friends (positively) as an example of "old school social media," which at this point, it is. Many people, including me, spend time elsewhere on sites that simply didn't exist at the time GMG appeared. Given the now-intense competition for everyone's online attention (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and dozens of others), it is a bit of a credit to the denizens here that the board has actually lasted as long as it has. I have developed some close friendships as a result of this board.

And a reminder that this board is funded and maintained by a single person, who actually rarely even participates here. And it's not cheap, either: years ago Rob was shelling out around $1,000 annually to keep things going. And privately, Rob sets a great example, too, as a citizen: He participates in helicopter rescue efforts during fires and other calamities. Why he hasn't pulled the plug on GMG years ago is a mystery, but I don't ask, because I'm grateful. (Since it's Thanksgiving, after all.)

My two cents: It's all-too-easy to ignore any thread(s) one wishes. I personally roll my eyes at the threads devoted to a single word, two words, three words, posts in iambic pentameter (OK, that one's a joke), or others. But many people here find those entertaining.

We are moderating the new political thread more quickly, and with a little more liberal use of the "Delete" function. It's not a task anyone likes, and no one will be completely happy with the decisions. (And further, adults should be able to moderate themselves.) But I'd like to think that we're able to negotiate the sometimes tricky balance between tolerance and censorship. Our goal is to have a peaceful community.

Last:
Enjoy Some Music Today

--Bruce

If you'll pardon the vernacular, Fuckin' A!
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 11:47:47 AM
I was trolling. Which I should not have done.
(And the mods obviously agreed with that. That's why the posts got deleted.)

Got it now. Don't worry, my own behavior is far from irreproachable.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
When I voted, the YES votes were up 10 to 4.

Now it's 10 to 14.

NO WAY.

This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 11:52:49 AM
we’re on a music forum

A music forum which has an extensive section devoted to "anything, music excepted" and populated by people whose interests cover a wide range of topics besides music. Limiting the talk to music only, or even primarily, is downright impossible and from my point of view not even desirable. If I may paraphrase Mahler, a forum should be like the world, it must contain everything.  :D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sterna on November 23, 2020, 11:54:40 AM
A music forum which has an extensive section devoted to "anything, music excepted" and populated by people whose interests cover a wide range of topics besides music. Limiting the talk to music only, or even primarily, is downright impossible and from my point of view not even desirable. If I may paraphrase Mahler, a forum should be like the world, it must contain everything.  :D

Mahler was a madcap.
Ask Richard Strauss.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: ritter on November 23, 2020, 11:56:05 AM
....
This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.
"[You] know crimes, [you] can smell them. You don’t have to smell this one, [you] can prove it to [us], 18 different ways.”  ;D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2020, 11:56:17 AM
I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

It doesn't even affect your participation in that much-maligned political thread, Karl.  :D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 12:12:15 PM
I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

I'm very glad for the community here, very glad that John, e.g. has returned. Glad for the kibitzing on this thread/poll.

Keep cool, friends!

Thank you, Karl. Perhaps I’m being too hard on the forum? I guess, in my own little mind, I retreat to GMG for the fact that it is an escape from the pressures and madness of the world we currently reside. I mean every time you turn on the TV or even take a glance at any kind of news online, you’re blasted with headlines like COVID Death Toll, Trump Won’t Concede, More Protests Today In Los Angeles, Black Man Killed By Cop...etc. that when I log into GMG, I’m hoping to escape that only to be welcomed by new post after new post in the political threads. It’s not like I have problem with people who want to discuss politics, but when this seems to be something that has become so concentrated that music itself the very thing that all of us are passionate about flies out of the window, it becomes a bit too much to deal with. Anyway, I won’t beat a dead horse any longer as the votes here clearly show that people don’t have a problem with it --- I guess I just looked at this forum as something that was sacred and it afforded me the opportunity to share my love of music and, yes, I could easily ignore the political threads, but it’s becoming difficult to do so, but, make no mistake, I’ll still post here because I do believe there are good people here and I’ve made several friends in the process. You certainly can’t get any better than that when all is said and done.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 12:20:35 PM
A music forum which has an extensive section devoted to "anything, music excepted" and populated by people whose interests cover a wide range of topics besides music. Limiting the talk to music only, or even primarily, is downright impossible and from my point of view not even desirable. If I may paraphrase Mahler, a forum should be like the world, it must contain everything.  :D

I never refuted the fact that the members here have a wide range of interests and those interests should be allowed to be discussed, but when it comes to politics this seems to bring out the worst in people and this is something I find rather unfortunate and why I’m not onboard with those types of threads. I don’t have anything personal against anyone here who wants to discuss politics, but more times than not, what I find is some nasty, dirt throwing contest instead of a discussion of ideas and beliefs. Also, what usually happens when you have two people on two different sides of the political coin is it comes to basically ‘we’ll have to agree to disagree.’ In other words, no minds will be changed and no lightbulbs have been turned on. In my mind, it’s just a waste of time, but if people want to do engage in these types of discussions, then more power to them. I created this thread to get an idea of where the forum stands on the issue.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 12:31:14 PM
It doesn't even affect your participation in that much-maligned political thread, Karl.  :D

Perhaps not in ways perceptible to you.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: LKB on November 23, 2020, 12:33:30 PM
I voted " no ".

Any subject/thread could conceivably devolve into pettiness and vitriol, it need not involve politics.

From the standpoint of convenience, it's much more desirable not to have to jump around to any number of sites because l feel like discussing politics ( or Mahler, Arecibo, SpaceX, aviation, WWll naval history... ).

Most of us present ourselves with civility; for instances where someone temporarily loses the handle on their adulthood, the moderators have the requisite tools at their disposal. Trolling, of course, should not be tolerated once identified.

Things will eventually quiet down, l am sure.

 8),

LKB

Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 01:16:48 PM
I voted " no ".

Any subject/thread could conceivably devolve into pettiness and vitriol, it need not involve politics.

From the standpoint of convenience, it's much more desirable not to have to jump around to any number of sites because l feel like discussing politics ( or Mahler, Arecibo, SpaceX, aviation, WWll naval history... ).

Most of us present ourselves with civility; for instances where someone temporarily loses the handle on their adulthood, the moderators have the requisite tools at their disposal. Trolling, of course, should not be tolerated once identified.

Things will eventually quiet down, l am sure.

 8),

LKB



Howbeit I voted yes, otherwise I agree on all points.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: André on November 23, 2020, 02:53:55 PM
Howbeit I voted yes, otherwise I agree on all points.

Same here.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 03:13:32 PM
Are we talking here about just the Trump thread? Or also the Brexit, Coronavirus and unimportant news threads?

I'll second whoever said it would just be nice if they didn't appear on the "recent posts" feed, as one exchange can take over the whole list.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2020, 03:21:50 PM
Are we talking here about just the Trump thread? Or also the Brexit, Coronavirus and unimportant news threads?

I'll second whoever said it would just be nice if they didn't appear on the "recent posts" feed, as one exchange can take over the whole list.

How so?  There can have been 50 new posts in a thread since my last time here, but I only get 1 notice in my list... ?

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 03:28:58 PM
I think you're referring there to the "show new replies to my posts", whereas I'm referring to the "recent posts" feed on the homepage, the one you'll see if you're a newbie considering the forum.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: amw on November 23, 2020, 03:51:56 PM
At this point I try to stay out of the politics threads because they rarely if ever discuss political issues that are actually interesting to me (it's all Trump this and Biden that), and I do think it would be nice if they ceased to exist, but fruitless, as people on here would just find other and less easily containable avenues to express their psychopathy.

In addition, art is inherently political, so you can't exactly separate the two. It's just that nowadays we no longer feel particularly emotional when talking about Louis XIV or Napoleon Bonaparte or the Franco-Prussian War or whatever other context a particular work of art was created in. (I mean, maybe I'm wrong and there are people on here who feel deep rage every time we discuss Beethoven's Eroica because Napoleon killed their great-great-grandparents or whatever.)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2020, 03:58:47 PM
I think you're referring there to the "show new replies to my posts", whereas I'm referring to the "recent posts" feed on the homepage, the one you'll see if you're a newbie considering the forum.

Ah. Yes, that would be right, although in truth, I have never used it... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Dungeon Master on November 23, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
When I voted, the YES votes were up 10 to 4.

Now it's 10 to 14.

NO WAY.

This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.

Postal votes coming in late.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 05:35:42 PM
When I voted, the YES votes were up 10 to 4.

Now it's 10 to 14.

NO WAY.

This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.

I voted online! I didn't want to catch Covid-19 by going to a crowded polling station!  0:)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Dungeon Master on November 23, 2020, 05:55:38 PM
OK, so I've read thru these arguments both for and against.

A summary (feel free to correct or expand)

Against:

For:

I am inclined to the "For" group. However, I do recognise that politics can bring out the worst in people and that makes for lots of extra work for the moderators.

My Suggestions to placate both sides:

I am open to further discussion, or suggestions.

Rob
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 06:04:02 PM
Valid points.
And if someone joins this board because of these topics, well, I would find that weird, too.
Isn't it strange though, that the death of Sean Connery and 'darn cats' do not lead to personal attacks, disrespect, mocking and trolling?

EVERY board has "Last movie you watched" thread.  ;D I joined this board to tell the World Elgar is the greatest composer in history. Let's just say it didn't go well...  :(

I would have been attacked had I expressed my opinion that Roger Moore is my favorite Bond actor, but I chose to keep silent to respect Sean Connery's (who is my good second) memory.

Maybe Fauré and Autechre are not of interest to me. But others might be very interested. You and I are not the only members here.

I can understand you are not into Autechre, because this is after all a classical music forum and Autechre happens to be very demanding and difficult/complex electronic music, but no love for Fauré? One of the finest French composers?

Besides that: I can get inspired by posts about music, and what other members here are enjoying. That's one of the main reasons I became a member here.

Well, maybe my music posts inspire someone. I don't know...

We have been through this before, but if politics is the main reason for you to participate on a music board, and you really think that other members have no interest in what you say or think about music at all, then I would suggest that you join a political board. To be honest, if I had the same ideas about music and talking about music as you, I would never ever think of joining a music board. No offense meant by the way.

I came here a decade before Trump started running for president. I came here to tell about Elgar's greatness, vibrational fields and all, but I was told I know nothing. I came because of music, but the years teached me people are not listening to what I have to say about music. Then Trump happened and it changed the game completely. I got hooked on the US politics. This time people read my posts and actually responded!

Now that Biden happened, my interest in the US politics is declining. If you look at the US politics thread, my activity there is not huge anymore. So, maybe I return posting about music and getting mostly ignored or mocked for being ignorant...
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 23, 2020, 06:05:59 PM
Postal votes coming in late.

STOP THE STEAL!
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 23, 2020, 06:10:08 PM

  • Increasing the post-count before members can post in the Diner

I am open to further discussion, or suggestions.

Rob

asking for big post count before one can post in "Last movie you watched" thread sounds silly. Why does politics threads have to be in Diner section? Why not create a heavily moderated section for these few sensitive/controversial topics?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 06:10:56 PM
Can a longer serving member than me say if there was a problem with political threads before 2015?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Brewski on November 23, 2020, 06:31:59 PM
Can a longer serving member than me say if there was a problem with political threads before 2015?

I don't recall any problems of this severity, but then, I have always tended to stay out of those threads. Methinks it is yet another symptom of the atmosphere encouraged by T***p, who is constantly combative. He really enjoys, sadistically, seeing people fight each other.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 06:39:31 PM
That is my suspicion, also.

I'll reiterate what I said on page one: I think this will taper off quickly in the very near future without anyone needing to make any sweeping changes.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Brewski on November 23, 2020, 07:54:25 PM
That is my suspicion, also.

I'll reiterate what I said on page one: I think this will taper off quickly in the very near future without anyone needing to make any sweeping changes.

Yes, hoping you are correct.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2020, 08:00:24 PM
Can a longer serving member than me say if there was a problem with political threads before 2015?

Well, I've been here since 2003, and I have actually spent time in the politics threads. What I would say is that they have always been contentious. George W. Bush was divisive in his own way, even if it was because of having Cheyney by his side. And stuff was happening at the time, you can't overlook that. It's not like assholery was invented yesterday.

In my memory, the political threads are actually no more contentious now than they have ever been, but they are 10X busier. To the point where they overwhelm a lot of whatever else is going on. Do I expect things to diminish after January 20th? Yes, I do. Will there always be rancor over political beliefs? Well, my wise old father told me many years ago "son, if you want to get along in the world, never discuss religion or politics". Nothing i have seen since then makes him out to be wrong.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 23, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
I would just like to thank Rob, the moderators and the members who have responded to this thread. I certainly can understand both arguments regardless of whether one is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. As several members have pointed out, I’m hoping all of this will blow over. Of course, the votes speak for themselves with the majority of members here not being too concerned about the political threads and voting not to ban them. I left this poll open for a year (or less), but I think by the end of the month, I’ll lock the voting as I think by that point everyone who is a frequent contributor here will have been able to vote.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: knight66 on November 24, 2020, 01:38:40 AM
Someone asked whether there were conflicts before the 2015 political threads turned up.

Yes, vociferous ones. On the old site we went through a long phase of great acrimony about religion. I used to refer to them as the Religious Wars. One ex-member, Pink Harp, used to introduce controversial subjects, one was whether prostitution should be legalised. And there was a lot of conflict on music topics, Pelleas and Melisande anybody? The worst that I recall was an extended firefight about Haydn chamber music. Saul, that name will make a few here shudder. He could have caused a fight in an empty topic, musical, political, religious, ethnic.

I could go on.

Where people of strongly held opinions come together there are often outbursts. We have been through some swings and roundabouts of moderation starting with basically next to no censorship and the mods spending what felt like most of our spare time writing behind the scenes to try and persuade a few troublemakers to change the wording in their posts: to clamping down too much. The latter caused a general turpitude, the site was becalmed, dull frankly.

I don’t like the politics thread, but the forum needs somewhere that people can let off steam somewhat. I think that is important and it tends to take pressure off the music threads. As has been said, it is simple to avoid threads you are not interested in. I can’t stand the rash of one, two or three word topics, but as they don’t seem to cause trouble, I ignore them.

Rob suggests new people be prevented from posting in the Diner, but that damages the possibility of new people bonding. Someone has suggested we hive-off politics. Well, what is really meant here is American Politics. The Brexit topic has not needed much moderation. The world is full of politics and we have members from large swathes of it. So the problem thread is US politics. I am not keen on a Restricted Area, like a club within a club. I think we learn how to cope with ups and downs with each other, continue to more closely moderate that topic and I recommend we permanently ban any member who over an extended period posts more or less exclusively in the US politics thread.

The rules of that thread are clear and we don’t get into discussions with people, material will be deleted. Someone suggested that was pointless. I disagree.material is deleted and many posters remain unaware that there had been a problem or action taken. It also means those possibly personal insults are not there to be subsequently read by, for example, new members.

Knight
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2020, 09:55:40 AM
Someone asked whether there were conflicts before the 2015 political threads turned up.

Yes, vociferous ones. On the old site we went through a long phase of great acrimony about religion. I used to refer to them as the Religious Wars. One ex-member, Pink Harp, used to introduce controversial subjects, one was whether prostitution should be legalised. And there was a lot of conflict on music topics, Pelleas and Melisande anybody? The worst that I recall was an extended firefight about Haydn chamber music. Saul, that name will make a few here shudder. He could have caused a fight in an empty topic, musical, political, religious, ethnic.

I could go on.

Where people of strongly held opinions come together there are often outbursts. We have been through some swings and roundabouts of moderation starting with basically next to no censorship and the mods spending what felt like most of our spare time writing behind the scenes to try and persuade a few troublemakers to change the wording in their posts: to clamping down too much. The latter caused a general turpitude, the site was becalmed, dull frankly.

I don’t like the politics thread, but the forum needs somewhere that people can let off steam somewhat. I think that is important and it tends to take pressure off the music threads. As has been said, it is simple to avoid threads you are not interested in. I can’t stand the rash of one, two or three word topics, but as they don’t seem to cause trouble, I ignore them.

Rob suggests new people be prevented from posting in the Diner, but that damages the possibility of new people bonding. Someone has suggested we hive-off politics. Well, what is really meant here is American Politics. The Brexit topic has not needed much moderation. The world is full of politics and we have members from large swathes of it. So the problem thread is US politics. I am not keen on a Restricted Area, like a club within a club. I think we learn how to cope with ups and downs with each other, continue to more closely moderate that topic and I recommend we permanently ban any member who over an extended period posts more or less exclusively in the US politics thread.

The rules of that thread are clear and we don’t get into discussions with people, material will be deleted. Someone suggested that was pointless. I disagree, material is deleted and many posters remain unaware that there had been a problem or action taken. It also means those possibly personal insults are not there to be subsequently read by, for example, new members.

Knight

Ditto.
8)

I would just like to thank Rob, the moderators and the members who have responded to this thread. I certainly can understand both arguments regardless of whether one is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. As several members have pointed out, I’m hoping all of this will blow over. Of course, the votes speak for themselves with the majority of members here not being too concerned about the political threads and voting not to ban them. I left this poll open for a year (or less), but I think by the end of the month, I’ll lock the voting as I think by that point everyone who is a frequent contributor here will have been able to vote.

Well, these things need to be aired out from time to time. Not weekly, mind you, but sometimes we need to step back and see what effect our actions have had. All of us, that is, not just the Mods. Most of our actions are just reactions, after all. But in this case we have been modestly proactive, so self-assessment is needed. True, we could be even stricter, but I think one reaches a point of diminishing returns with that. We'll see how it continues. :)

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Herman on November 24, 2020, 10:46:24 AM
I should think the USA politics topic will get calmer as the new year begins.

And should Trump find some other pursuits for the remainder of his years (whether it be a tv show or an endless stream of lawsuits) things will never get as heated as around this election.

Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2020, 11:14:40 AM
[snip]....Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.

Ah, you noticed that, eh?! I realize the actions of the elephant in the room affect all occupants, but sometimes I just gotta laugh when it gets OTT!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 11:28:29 AM
Of course the funny thing is some of the most heated posters aren't even 'Mericans.

There is a Dutch guy whose name I can't remember right now...  :D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: MusicTurner on November 24, 2020, 11:35:55 AM
One newspaper commentator in my country noticed the incredible fact, that more or less the whole world has been fixated on - and influenced by - the moods and psychology of a single individual on a daily basis, for almost 4 years.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
One newspaper commentator in my country noticed the incredible fact, that more or less the whole world has been fixated on - and influenced by - the moods and psychology of a single individual on a daily basis, for almost 4 years.

I've made this very point a few months ago in the old political thread, adding that it's abnormal that people, especially non-Americans, obsessively fixate day in, day out on what Trump does says and twitters, to the point of losing their sleep and peace of mind. I was rebuked for not caring about the fate of the world or for underestimating / downplaying Trump's capacity of negatively impacting it --- as if incessant handwringing and complaining on an inconsequential internet board were going to change either Trump's behavior or the fate of the world.

Anyway, I too think that after January 20 the whole kerfuffle will gradually subside, both in the world at large and here.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: MusicTurner on November 24, 2020, 12:32:20 PM
I've made this very point a few months ago on the old political thread, adding that it's abnormal that people, especially non-Americans, obsessively fixate day in, day out on what Trump does says and twitters, to the point of losing their sleep and peace of mind. I was rebuked for not caring about the fate of the world or for underestimating / downplaying Trump's capacity of negatively impacting it --- as if incessant handwringing and complaining on an inconsequential internet board were going to change either Trump's behavior or the fate of the world.

Anyway, I too think that after January 20 the whole kerfuffle will gradually subside, both in the world at large and here.

The commentator pointed to the fixation as a 'quality' with Trump, that somehow showed a genius aspect of him - seeing that opening for getting such attention.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Scion7 on November 25, 2020, 05:45:37 AM
This is all I have to say on this matter:

Right!  Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, because some moistened bimp had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!


                             https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want


Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2020, 09:48:23 AM
This is all I have to say on this matter:

Right!  Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, because some moistened bimp had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!



                             https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want

One of my favorite all-time movie scenes. :D  "I didn't know you were called Dennis..."  ;D

Anyway, yes, mandate from the masses!

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 10:13:00 AM
From here:

https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want

I got this gem:

Republic supports a non-partisan head of state who is not involved in making political decisions or running the government.

Iow, Republic supports a constitutional monarchy. Three cheers for Republic, whoever or whatever they are!   ;D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 10:15:34 AM
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses

Don't know where this quote is taken from but it sounds like Mein Kampf to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 25, 2020, 10:37:37 AM
One of my favorite all-time movie scenes. :D  "I didn't know you were called Dennis..."  ;D

Anyway, yes, mandate from the masses!

8)


Oh, King, eh? Very nice.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2020, 10:38:38 AM
Don't know where this quote is taken from but it sounds like Mein Kampf to me.  ;D

Try Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's an easier listen, and almost as funny. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 11:02:31 AM
Try Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's an easier listen, and almost as funny. ;)

Somehow I never got to listen to any Monty Python. I imagine I miss a lot.

But seriously, that Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses could have been subscribed by any number of modern dictators. Ceaușescu, for instance, always claimed he was ruling on behalf of, and for, the working class which mandated him to do so at each and every nationwide congress the Communist Party held periodically.  ;D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: MN Dave on November 25, 2020, 01:23:49 PM
Certain members should be banned, but never politics. Religion definitely though.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 01:35:49 PM
Certain members should be banned, but never politics. Religion definitely though.

 :laugh:

On GMG there are theists, agnostics and atheists. Can you please show me one single thread dealing with religion that was started by someone self-identified as theist or agnostic?
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: MN Dave on November 25, 2020, 01:40:52 PM
Can you please show me one single thread dealing with religion that was started by someone self-identified as theist or agnostic?

It's possible.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Scion7 on November 25, 2020, 02:25:10 PM
From here:   https://www.republic.org.uk/what_we_want

Iow, Republic supports a constitutional monarchy. Three cheers for Republic, whoever or whatever they are!   ;D

                Graham Smith: BLOODY PEASANT!

Serious, Flo', I wouldn't make that interpretation at any of the meetings.  They'd do you a right treat, mate!   >:D

Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 25, 2020, 02:41:32 PM
Although I don't participate in the political threads, I voted no. I do read them. I mean, how else am I to know whom to hate?  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2020, 05:46:08 PM
Somehow I never got to listen to any Monty Python. I imagine I miss a lot.

But seriously, that Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses could have been subscribed by any number of modern dictators. Ceaușescu, for instance, always claimed he was ruling on behalf of, and for, the working class which mandated him to do so at each and every nationwide congress the Communist Party held periodically.  ;D

If I hadn't already known, I would have said Karl Marx...

https://youtu.be/R7qT-C-0ajI

It's just 3 minutes, you'll broaden your horizons a little. Damn, you have me feeling sorry for you already.... :'(   ;D

8)
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 12:28:53 AM
                Graham Smith: BLOODY PEASANT!

Serious, Flo', I wouldn't make that interpretation at any of the meetings.  They'd do you a right treat, mate!   >:D

Oh, I'm sure violence is the only way they could defend their incoherent, self-contradictory doctrine.  ;D
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: 71 dB on November 26, 2020, 02:24:10 AM
The commentator pointed to the fixation as a 'quality' with Trump, that somehow showed a genius aspect of him - seeing that opening for getting such attention.

Trump surely is a genius getting attention, but he is talented in completely wrongs things for a president while being astonishly weak at things important for a leader. As I have said for years, Trump's place is in the WWE wrestling ring feuding with Vince McMahon.
Title: Re: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?
Post by: Mirror Image on November 26, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
Okay, I’m afraid we’re getting off topic and many of you guys are talking about politics when there are threads dedicated to such discussion. It looks like the majority of members here don’t mind political threads, so with that vote in mind, I’m now locking this thread.