What would Sibelius be without his seven symphonies?
How about one of the greatest composers of songs?
It's true.
So good, in fact, that when orchestrated his songs take on a dimension rivaling that of his better-known symphonic works. And the quality is uniformly high.
So run, don't walk to hear what all the fuss is about!
Well what about his neglected and underrated piano music, which I have complete on the BIS label. It was always treated as mere play by Sibelius, but I think its pretty darn good.
Than you have the tone poems, apart from his symphonies.
His violinconcerto.
His vocal output is not my cup of tea, so my rating would count for nothing..............
Quote from: Harry on April 16, 2007, 10:44:53 PM
Well what about his neglected and underrated piano music, which I have complete on the BIS label. It was always treated as mere play by Sibelius, but I think its pretty darn good.
Than you have the tone poems, apart from his symphonies.
His violinconcerto.
His vocal output is not my cup of tea, so my rating would count for nothing..............
How about one of his best compositions:
The Tempest?
Although written at a very young age, I also enjoy a lot his piano trios and early string quartets. And the
Voces intimae SQ is also a masterpiece.
Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2007, 11:22:50 PM
How about one of his best compositions: The Tempest?
Although written at a very young age, I also enjoy a lot his piano trios and early string quartets. And the Voces intimae SQ is also a masterpiece.
All true my friend! :)
Still I could not live without the Symphonies!
Quote from: Harry on April 16, 2007, 11:50:38 PM
All true my friend! :)
Still I could not live without the Symphonies!
Who could?
Actually, I know someone, but I'll keep my mouth shut... :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2007, 11:58:32 PM
Who could?
Actually, I know someone, but I'll keep my mouth shut... :)
Arccchhhhhhhh...........................I know! ;D
Tapiola
Lounnotar, Opus 70
Barden, Opus 64
Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu (Nightride & Sunrise), Opus 55
Quote from: Captain Haddock on April 17, 2007, 02:14:27 AM
Tapiola
One of my favorites, too -- I got to know it through Ashkenazy's Sibelius cycle with the Philharmonia.
And I just heard this live last weekend, by Sakari Oramo and the New York Philharmonic -- wonderful. Although to my horror, the program notes mentioned that it had
not been performed by the orchestra since 1934.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on April 18, 2007, 11:16:50 AM
Although to my horror, the program notes mentioned that it had not been performed by the orchestra since 1934.
That's bad enough on its own, as a raw statistic,
Bruce.
But wouldn't that mean that
Lenny never touched it with the NY Phil?
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 11:21:28 AM
That's bad enough on its own, as a raw statistic, Bruce.
But wouldn't that mean that Lenny never touched it with the NY Phil?
That is (amazingly) correct. (The conductor in 1934 was Rodzinski.) And to put it another way: you could have attended every NY Philharmonic concert from 1935 to the present --
over 70 years -- and never have heard this piece.
--Bruce
Quote from: donwyn on April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM
What would Sibelius be without his seven symphonies?
How about one of the greatest composers of songs?
It's true.
So good, in fact, that when orchestrated his songs take on a dimension rivalling that of his better-known symphonic works. And the quality is uniformly high.
So run, don't walk to hear what all the fuss is about!
Donwyn, I already had my eye on these - would you recommend them?
Q
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ODE10805.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4761725.jpg)
SIBELIUS Complete Songs
Elisabeth Söderström, Tome Krause,
Vladimir Ashkenazy, Irwin Gage, Carlos Bonell, Decca 4cds
Quote from: Harry on April 16, 2007, 10:44:53 PM
Well what about his neglected and underrated piano music, which I have complete on the BIS label. It was always treated as mere play by Sibelius, but I think its pretty darn good.
Thank you for bringing his piano music to my attention, Harry. Up 'till now I've not given it a second thought.
Would like to remedy that.
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2007, 11:24:30 AM
Donwyn, I already had my eye on these - would you recommend them?
Q
Q,
That Decca set I've never seen before! :o But how I'd dearly like to get my hands on it! Unfortunately I can't seem to locate it this side of the Atlantic (Stateside). Must be one of those releases that never made it abroad.
I admit I've never heard Söderström outside of her Janacek opera recordings (w/ Mackerras). So I can only comment on the high quality of her singing there. But based on that I'd jump on this Sibelius set if I ever came across it.
As far as that Isokoski disc goes, I recommend it without reservation, Q! Her rendition of Luonnotar is worth the asking price of this disc alone.
Another good one is the Mattila disc below. There's some duplication including Luonnotar. Though duplicating Luonnotar is no bad thing!
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4806165.jpg)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 11:08:45 AM
Lounnotar, Opus 70
Barden, Opus 64
Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu (Nightride & Sunrise), Opus 55
I agree+Tapiola (I just bought a fine Vanguard CD with Adrian Boult giving an excellent Tapiola). By the way, if you like Tapiola, try Moeran's Symphony in G which effectively has a "Tapiola-like" moment in the last movement. The whole symphony should appeal to admirers of Sibelius.
Truly, Capt, I meant Tapiola nothing remotely like a slight.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 04:43:25 AM
Truly, Capt, I meant Tapiola nothing remotely like a slight.
Of course, none taken :)
Luonnotar is a marvellous piece (EMI Dorati)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 07:31:51 AM
Who sings?
It is Gwyneth Jones (LSO Dorati). It is a really good EMI CD (long deleted I fear) with Nielsen Symphony 5 (Danish RSO, Kubelik) and Luonnotar, Night-ride and Sunrise and The Oceanides (LSO Dorati). All are excellent performances, including a magnificent Nielsen Symphony 5 (the anarchic side-drummer gets appropriately carried away in his free cadenza!)
The number is/was CDM 5 65182 2
Good news is, that the Sibelius component of that has been reissued on this Gemini two-fer (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Tone-Poems-Songs-Jean/dp/B0001RVRH2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177002852&sr=1-1).
Quote from: donwyn on April 18, 2007, 06:12:05 PM
Thank you for bringing his piano music to my attention, Harry. Up 'till now I've not given it a second thought.
Would like to remedy that.
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
Quote from: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:17:42 AM
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
A query awaits you
here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,164.msg7293.html#msg7293),
Don.
Quote from: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:17:42 AM
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
Erik T on BIS also knows how to handle Sibelius's piano music, and he is a world wide expert in this field. :)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 09:22:07 AM
A query awaits you here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,164.msg7293.html#msg7293), Don.
Query was answered.
Quote from: Harry on April 19, 2007, 09:28:33 AM
Erik T on BIS also knows how to handle Sibelius's piano music, and he is a world wide expert in this field. :)
Have you heard the Mustonen disc? What's your opinion?
Kiitos, Don!
Quote from: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:38:40 AM
Have you heard the Mustonen disc? What's your opinion?
Of course I heard it, and its good, but I rate my Erik T recordings as high Don. :)
Luonnotar and Tapiola are both stunning masterpieces, as good as the very best parts of his very best symphonies - in other words, they are right at the top of his output, IMO. I couldn't agree more that the more recordings one has of either of these pieces the better.
Quote from: Harry on April 19, 2007, 09:46:24 AM
Of course I heard it, and its good, but I rate my Erik T recordings as high Don. :)
Fair enough.
Luonnotar is indeed a gorgeous song. Que, I can recommend Isokoski's recording (with Segerstram and HPO), it's wonderfully sung by Isokoski. I heard even better is Taru Valjakka's interpretation (with Bournemouth Orchestra under Berglund's baton), but have not heard it.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2007, 09:15:57 AM
Good news is, that the Sibelius component of that has been reissued on this Gemini two-fer (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Tone-Poems-Songs-Jean/dp/B0001RVRH2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177002852&sr=1-1).
That is VERY good news. I've heard a few versions of Luonnotar but this one is my favourite.
Quote from: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:17:42 AM
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
Thanks for the recommendation, Don. Wouldn't mind at all adding another Ondine disc to my collection, worthy little label that it is.
Harry, I shall heed your recommendation, too!
My introduction to Luonnotar was during a lecture on Sibelius by Robin Holloway. Before he played it he mentioned that for whatever reason the performance he was going to play was a particularly special one that really got to the heart of the piece more than any other. However, I couldn't hear him very well - or I wasn't paying much attention! ::) - and I missed both the reason Holloway thought this recording so special and the name of the performer; all I noticed was that it was on LP. However, as soon as the piece started I was absolutely entranced - I'd never heard anything like it. I've eagerly heard quite a few recordings since then, but I must be honest, none of them quite have the extra something that the recording Holloway played us had. Maybe I am imagining it, making more of my memory of the recording than it actually deserves; perhaps the effect was more down to the fact that this was the first time I'd heard this beautiful piece, and it was still a fresh surprise for me. Nevertheless, I'd love to know what it was I was hearing that day, and if it was possible to track down a copy for myself...
This is my review at Amazon.com at
http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Early-Years-Maturity-Silence/dp/B000M2EBWO/
A Riveting Two-Part Documentary about Sibelius and His Music
Christopher Nupen is one of the most creative and talented of the video documentarians of the classical music world. It all began many years ago when he made the wonderful film about du Pré, Barenboim, Perlman, Zukerman and Mehta -- the so-called 'Israeli Mafia.' That film has never gone out of style and was brought out on DVD a few years ago, made available for a new generation of viewers. This film, also originally on VHS, was made in the 1980s and is just now coming out on DVD. The transfer, I must say, is simply magnificent; I certainly would not have known it was originally on VHS if I hadn't seen it in its original form. The visuals are crisp, the sound excellent.
The subject is the life and, more important, the music of Jean Sibelius and the two sections are 'The Early Years' and 'Maturity and Silence.' Nupen, who wrote, directed and narrates the film, takes us through the important biographical details of the composer's life, including his struggle in his thirties with alcoholism on which he conquered only after he had a growth removed from his throat and was told that drinking and smoking would aggravate it and possibly hasten its return, and of the thirty year silence during which he strove to complete an Eighth Symphony but which he finally consigned to flames.
The visuals comprise many gorgeous views of the fields, forests and lakes of Sibelius's Finland, as well as a fascinating black-and-white silent film of the elderly Sibelius. There are also many views of photographs and paintings of the composer and his wife, as well as visits to Ainola, the country home where he and wife Aino lived for over fifty years.
There are some marvelously played and photographed excerpts from all but one of his symphonies -- the Sixth, for whatever reason, is mentioned but none of its music played -- all done by the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra with Vladimir Ashkenazy, a real Sibelian, conducting. There is also excerpts from Finlandia, Kullervo, the Karelia Suite and Tapiola by the same artists as well as a sizable excerpt from the Violin Concerto with Boris Belkin, violin. There are a couple of songs (in Swedish, as most of Sibelius's songs were) sung by Elisabeth Söderström. The first, with orchestral accompaniment, is 'Since then I have questioned no further', and the second, with Ashkenazy playing the piano accompaniment, the intensely dramatic 'Jubal.'
There is a clip of Sibelius's first composition, 'Water Drops', for two violins, written at age 11. The film begins and ends with an excerpt from a recording, made in 1939, of Sibelius conducting his 'Andante festivo.'
This is a brilliant and riveting account, aided by Nupen's beautifully written narration, of the artistic life of one of the twentieth century's great composers and one hopes that it will again be seen widely, as it was originally when shown on television.
Although Amazon doesn't indicate it, this DVD is in a format that can be played worldwide. Sound is LPCM Stereo, narration is in English, subtitles are in German, Spanish, French and Italian. Total time (which includes a couple of clips about other Nupen films) is 151 minutes; the Sibelius films run just over 100 mins.
Strongly recommended.
Scott Morrison
Alright George, I hope you read this thread because I decided to post my thoughts here:
I currently have three recordings of Sibelius' Sixth Symphony: Bernstein, Blomstedt, and Segerstam.
I'm focusing on the finale, which is where I think these recordings really diverge, and is the heart of the symphony for me:
What I noticed is that Bernstein was uniformly faster than both conductors. However I think that the finale has a delicate contrast of joy and despair that is lost in the Bernstein recording. Thanks to the poor quality of the recording the dynamic range sounds squashed, and in combination with the overly zippy tempos, I feel that we never see the manic-depressive mood swings portrayed like we do in Blomstedt and Segerstam.
I think that the slow tempos are essential to really hear the emotional complexity of the Sixth, but I should say that Hurwitz doesn't think so, he think it should be played fast like Bernstein. George, how does Ashkenazy play it? I'm wondering if you're in Hurwitz' camp and find Blomstedt's slower tempos distasteful.
And for other forumites, how do you like the finale in the Sixth to be taken?
George, overall my favorite is Segerstam, he's just amazing. His recording of this symphony just floors me! :)
Nice to have you back Dave !
What are you doing now?
Quote from: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:29:52 AM
Alright George, I hope you read this thread because I decided to post my thoughts here:
I currently have three recordings of Sibelius' Sixth Symphony: Bernstein, Blomstedt, and Segerstam.
I'm focusing on the finale, which is where I think these recordings really diverge, and is the heart of the symphony for me:
What I noticed is that Bernstein was uniformly faster than both conductors. However I think that the finale has a delicate contrast of joy and despair that is lost in the Bernstein recording. Thanks to the poor quality of the recording the dynamic range sounds squashed, and in combination with the overly zippy tempos, I feel that we never see the manic-depressive mood swings portrayed like we do in Blomstedt and Segerstam.
I think that the slow tempos are essential to really hear the emotional complexity of the Sixth, but I should say that Hurwitz doesn't think so, he think it should be played fast like Bernstein. George, how does Ashkenazy play it? I'm wondering if you're in Hurwitz' camp and find Blomstedt's slower tempos distasteful.
And for other forumites, how do you like the finale in the Sixth to be taken?
George, overall my favorite is Segerstam, he's just amazing. His recording of this symphony just floors me! :)
George,
Thanks to David Ross and MOG I have the Segerstam cycle as well and have not felt compelled to look any further in the "near" future for another set, though unlike David I have nothing to compare it to. In short I am very satisfied with what I have.
However, there is that Maazel/Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra set that I would not mind having after various samplings. ;D
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2007, 05:36:49 AM
Nice to have you back Dave !
What are you doing now?
Thanks! :)
Well after several months of wondering what the hell I want to do with my life, I realized that I still like physics, I just hated grad school. So I've been applying for teaching positions. I have an interview on Tuesday, they're paying to fly me out and it should be neat.
Quote from: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:56:37 AM
Thanks! :)
Well after several months of wondering what the hell I want to do with my life, I realized that I still like physics, I just hated grad school. So I've been applying for teaching positions. I have an interview on Tuesday, they're paying to fly me out and it should be neat.
Good luck.
Quote from: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:29:52 AM
Alright George, I hope you read this thread because I decided to post my thoughts here:
I wasn't, but I am now. Thanks!
Quote
I currently have three recordings of Sibelius' Sixth Symphony: Bernstein, Blomstedt, and Segerstam.
I'm focusing on the finale, which is where I think these recordings really diverge, and is the heart of the symphony for me:
What I noticed is that Bernstein was uniformly faster than both conductors. However I think that the finale has a delicate contrast of joy and despair that is lost in the Bernstein recording. Thanks to the poor quality of the recording the dynamic range sounds squashed, and in combination with the overly zippy tempos, I feel that we never see the manic-depressive mood swings portrayed like we do in Blomstedt and Segerstam.
I think that the slow tempos are essential to really hear the emotional complexity of the Sixth, but I should say that Hurwitz doesn't think so, he think it should be played fast like Bernstein. George, how does Ashkenazy play it? I'm wondering if you're in Hurwitz' camp and find Blomstedt's slower tempos distasteful.
Tempos for #6
Ashkenazy's Blomstedt's
9:23 9:24
5:42 6:28
3:54 3:33
9:17 10:23
Not sure how fast Bernstein is in the finale, but looks like there's a considerable difference between Ashy and Blom's 2nd and 4th movements.
In 2, I like Blomstedt's tempo more, though I think its a close call because I like Ashy's warmth more.
In 4, Blomstedt's intro was nice. I like his slower approach, with nothing sounding rushed, as is kinda the case with Ashkenazy in the intro to the finale. But then Ashkenazy brings MUCH more excitement as the movement picks up, so he pulled far ahead for me. Its an easy call - Ashy. Everything just sounds more alive with him at the helm, to these ears anyway.
What are Segerstam's timings?
Did he really burn his 8th symphony and, if so, how far along was it? I read a detailed story about the lengthy but aborted life of the 8th symphony and it was a fascinating tale. The impression I got was that he wrote several starts at an 8th symphony and destroyed them all, in a long road spanning nearly 3 decades. Is there anything, any sketch at all, even a page? He was apparently even promising several times to send it to an orchestra by a certain date, but always backed off at the last minute. And friends remarked that he had put material onto paper for it. This assumption of total destruction by Sibelius was proven wrong once before with the original version of the 5th, right?
My apologies if this is off-topic or common knowledge, but I'd never heard about any of this until yesterday, so I did a search on this board to see if it had been discussed. But I've now read 3 accounts of Sibelius's 8th Symphony, and all 3 differ on some details. Here's one I just read today:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/elamankaari/sib_kahdeksannen_tuhoaminen.htm
I'm looking for what I read yesterday.
Also, did he basically come to an almost complete halt of all composition for almost 30 years?! Or am I getting the wrong impression?
To tag on another question, this time about the 7th Symphony: how many recordings of it involve "tinkering" with the very end, and why do they do it? For example, I listened to the very last seconds conducted by Ormandy in 1962 and there's a loud trumpet a building crescendo to the end. A version conducted by Vänskä in 1998, the final seconds sound very, very different... No trumpet, and no crescendo. Why such drastic modifications? This may seem minor on paper, but to listen to it, it sounds like a radical difference to me. (The no-loud-trumpet+no-crescendo sounds way better to me)
Here's a paragraph from Robert Layton's Sibelius
Further evidence that work on the Eighth Symphony was continuing and that it was nearing completion comes in the form of a note, written in September 1933, to his regular copyist to whom he had sent the first fascicle of 23 pages of the orchestral score. From this it is possible to conclude that these pages constituted the first movement and were to be succeeded by a Largo. In all, Sibelius calculated that in its finished form the binding should allow for eight such fascicles, so that the work would be roughly of the same dimensions as the Second Symphony. Both Aino and Margareta Jalas visited the copyist to collect or deliver manuscripts during this period, so that it would seem that the symphony, if not complete, was at an advanced stage. Some years after his death, the composer Joonas Kokkonen asked Aino whether some of the material of the symphony could have been used in the Surusoitto (Funeral music) for organ, op. 111, that Sibelius had provided at very short notice for Axel Gallén-Kallela, which she thought highly plausible.
Quote from: Don on April 19, 2007, 09:17:42 AM
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
I got this a while ago and agree it's stunning, my first introduction to this music and pianist. Deffo' be on the hunt for more Mustonen.
Quote from: George on April 28, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
I wasn't, but I am now. Thanks!
Tempos for #6
Ashkenazy's Blomstedt's
9:23 9:24
5:42 6:28
3:54 3:33
9:17 10:23
Not sure how fast Bernstein is in the finale...What are Segerstam's timings?
Segerstam Bernstein
9:27 8:03
6:08 5:32
3:57 3:54
10:39 8:57
Sarge
Looks like Lenny made an unseemly rush of the first movement, too.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 31, 2007, 11:58:03 AM
Segerstam Bernstein
9:27 8:03
6:08 5:32
3:57 3:54
10:39 8:57
Sarge
Thanks Sarge. :)
I join this discussion rather late, and I'm not just referring to the date when this topic was posted.
On June 1st, 2007, The Sibelius Forum (http://www.sibelius.forumup.com) celebrated its one year birthday! That's right, for just over a year now, a small group of Sibelius fanatics have been discussing all the specific intricacies of our favourite composer on this little site.
In no way do I mean to divert traffic away from GMG, but that said, I would love for anyone who's interested to come and have a look.
Recently there have been many server crashed at forumup.com, worldwide, so please be patient if the forum doesn't load, it should be up in a few days.
What a great board it is! Knowledgeable people with interesting things to say, and no idle chit chat.
It's not loading for me . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2007, 11:20:54 AM
It's not loading for me . . . .
Quote from: Kurkikohtaus on June 03, 2007, 01:29:50 PM
Recently there have been many server crashed at forumup.com, worldwide, so please be patient if the forum doesn't load, it should be up in a few days.
$:)
That's a nice forum! I will post there sometime. :D
So...Sibelius on video, what's out there? I would love to see concert footage of any of his works, especially the symphonies.
It seems there is a whole cycle plus a Kullervo floating around with Salonen conducting the Swedish RSO (!), from broadcasts on a Japanese or European arts channel, and it got me thinking about what there was on DVD. I saw the end of the 5th and it was so great to watch.
Did Bernstein ever film these?
Quote from: donwyn on April 18, 2007, 06:49:23 PM
As far as that Isokoski disc goes, I recommend it without reservation, Q! Her rendition of Luonnotar is worth the asking price of this disc alone.
I second this recommendation. Immaculate performances and a thrilling version of
Luonnotar.
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
Quote from: Kullervo on July 02, 2007, 06:41:21 AM
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
Thanks!
Quote from: Kullervo on July 02, 2007, 06:41:21 AM
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
Beautiful. Thanks.
I'll be eagerly awaiting my copy in the mail. Alex Ross is a great writer on music, and his website is well worth visiting:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/
It looks like the Sibelius article will be included in an upcoming book on 20th century music.
Quote from: Shrunk on July 04, 2007, 05:13:04 AM
I'll be eagerly awaiting my copy in the mail. Alex Ross is a great writer on music, and his website is well worth visiting:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/
It looks like the Sibelius article will be included in an upcoming book on 20th century music.
Thanks, but his website is how I found the article. I have his blog on an RSS feed. :)
Fascinating article. Thank you for the link.
Quote from: Kullervo on July 02, 2007, 06:41:21 AM
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
Now I see where you got your name from
"The national legends of Finland are contained in the "Kalevala," a poetic epic compiled in 1835 by a country doctor named Elias Lönnrot. Cantos 31 through 36 tell of the bloodthirsty young fighter Kullervo, who has his way with a young woman who turns out to be his sister. She commits suicide; he goes off to war. One day, finding himself again in the forest where the rape occurred, he asks his sword what kind of blood it wishes to taste. The sword demands the blood of a guilty man, whereupon Kullervo rams his body on the blade. In 1891 and 1892, Sibelius, who had just completed two final years of study in Berlin and Vienna, used this dismal tale as the basis for his first major work, "Kullervo," an eighty-minute symphonic drama for men's chorus, soloists, and orchestra."
Thank you, I'll read it.
Personally, I have only few knowledge about his symphonies, I've bought the Blomstedt SFSO cycle and the Rozhdestvensky/Moscow SO.
But I'm absolutely fascinated by his tone poems. At the top of all, there's the wood nymph op. 15. What a great piece of more than 20 minutes of music. What a powerful earthquake like conclusion! There are probably just two cd releases out there, the best known is the BIS one. A must. Too sad, lot of people do not know it!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d5/e6/e425224b9da0b2d57822c010._AA240_.L.jpg)
Also on my top recommendations list: The Rozhdestvensky/LSO interpretation of the Finlandia. It's different from others, at some points staccato like. To me, it's as it has to be... This interpretation transports all the finlandia feelings best. The sadness, the tragic, the war, the victory, the peace... all it has.... The Rozh/LSO can e.g. be found here:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5123F0AC6SL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 04, 2007, 08:31:52 PM
Thank you, I'll read it.
Personally, I have only few knowledge about his symphonies, I've bought the Blomstedt SFSO cycle and the Rozhdestvensky/Moscow SO.
But I'm absolutely fascinated by his tone poems. At the top of all, there's the wood nymph op. 15. What a great piece of more than 20 minutes of music. What a powerful earthquake like conclusion! There are probably just two cd releases out there, the best known is the BIS one. A must. Too sad, lot of people do not know it!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d5/e6/e425224b9da0b2d57822c010._AA240_.L.jpg)
Also on my top recommendations list: The Rozhdestvensky/LSO interpretation of the Finlandia. It's different from others, at some points staccato like. To me, it's as it has to be... This interpretation transports all the finlandia feelings best. The sadness, the tragic, the war, the victory, the peace... all it has.... The Rozh/LSO can e.g. be found here:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5123F0AC6SL._AA240_.jpg)
Thanks for the recommendations,
Wurstwasser -- I was not familiar with Op. 15. I'll have to add that disc to my wishlist. :)
Wow--doesn't Sibelius get any play around here anymore? (Found this thread buried on the 8th page!)
I'd just like to report that I finally heard the Rattle recording of Night Ride & Sunrise that Mike has praised to the heavens. Capital Public Radio played it the other morning. I ordered a copy that night.
Quote from: longears on August 24, 2007, 09:45:49 PM
I'd just like to report that I finally heard the Rattle recording of Night Ride & Sunrise that Mike has praised to the heavens. Capital Public Radio played it the other morning. I ordered a copy that night.
Rattle's was the very first Sibelius cycle I ever bought moons ago. Though, sadly, I never really warmed to it.
But being moons ago I couldn't say with much authority just
what Rattle did that rubbed me so wrong. So could be time for a fresh reassessment.
Thoughts on Rattle's Sibelius, LongE?
The only Rattle Sibelius I have at present is the CBSO 5th, which I've heard only once, finding it so bland that I've never returned. I'm not a Rattle fan anyway, and admit to taking potshots at him when he seems overpraised. Nor am I a fan of Night Ride and Sunrise -- possibly the only orchestral piece by Sibelius I don't love. Mike has suggested that hearing Rattle's Night Ride might change my mind about both.
It has.
I heard it in the car on my way to work--and not even the whole thing, as I had an early telecon preventing me from sitting in the car and listening till the end. What I heard in the first 4 minutes was an orchestral balance that favored the winds rather than the repetitive rhythmic figure in the strings, somewhat liberal rubato rendering the figure less mind-numbingly boring, and very liberal dynamics that really made the piece come alive. I ordered a copy from BRO and when it arrives will let you know if I like the rest of it as much!
Nice to hear from you, Don. :)
I like Rattle's Sibelius, actually I love his 3rd, just a very nice recording with a lot of color and life...and I like his 7th too, and Night Ride and Sunrise, which really is a great performance. The 5th is good, but there are so many other awesome 5ths around. Same for his 2nd. I think you'll really like that disc.
I'm still listening over here, longears, though hampered by school now, going to start on Ashkenazy I think next, and also Sanderling. Also looking forward to Mackerras's 2nd and 5th in the "to listen to" pile.
For live Sibelius, LA Phil and Salonen are doing a full cycle in September/October, in L.A. and London, with some nice pairings, I wish I could make it out for that. But as consolation I will at least hear this fall our local orchestra in the 2nd, and Houston is doing the 7th and Finlandia, which is great, I adore the 7th particularly and am so glad to see it live.
Also worth mentioning, Hilary Hahn has recorded the Violin Concerto, and Schoenberg's, with Salonen and SRSO, to be released next year. I look forward to hearing her playing on that piece. :D
Quote from: longears on August 26, 2007, 06:09:48 AM
The only Rattle Sibelius I have at present is the CBSO 5th, which I've heard only once, finding it so bland that I've never returned. I'm not a Rattle fan anyway, and admit to taking potshots at him when he seems overpraised. Nor am I a fan of Night Ride and Sunrise -- possibly the only orchestral piece by Sibelius I don't love. Mike has suggested that hearing Rattle's Night Ride might change my mind about both.
It has.
I heard it in the car on my way to work--and not even the whole thing, as I had an early telecon preventing me from sitting in the car and listening till the end. What I heard in the first 4 minutes was an orchestral balance that favored the winds rather than the repetitive rhythmic figure in the strings, somewhat liberal rubato rendering the figure less mind-numbingly boring, and very liberal dynamics that really made the piece come alive. I ordered a copy from BRO and when it arrives will let you know if I like the rest of it as much!
Interesting. So Rattle takes a checkered piece and breathes new life into it. Score one for Rattle!
QuoteNice to hear from you, Don. :)
Don't be a stranger. :)
Quote from: Greta on August 26, 2007, 03:58:23 PM
...going to start on Ashkenazy I think next...
This cycle seems to divide GMGers.
Some object to Ashkenazy's romantic/hothouse tendencies, turning what ought to be austere and shimmering into bubbling late romantic excess.
For myself, I've frequently come to the defense of Ashkenazy while recognizing that others are better at capturing that Nordic chill so integral to the music - Vänskä and Blomstedt for starters.
But for what it is Ashkenazy's cycle certainly makes its mark. It's not for lack of an 'angle' or forethought that Ashkenazy tackles these works. They've been thoroughly thought out.
Whether or not one warms to them is entirely a personal thing, however.
Quote from: donwyn on August 26, 2007, 10:00:19 PM
This cycle seems to divide GMGers.
For myself, I've frequently come to the defense of Ashkenazy while recognizing that others are better at capturing that Nordic chill so integral to the music - Vänskä and Blomstedt for starters.
But for what it is Ashkenazy's cycle certainly makes its mark. It's not for lack of an 'angle' or forethought that Ashkenazy tackles these works. They've been thoroughly thought out.
Whether or not one warms to them is entirely a personal thing, however.
As usual, well put Don. I am a big fan of Ashkenazy's Sibelius, but then I am a bleeding heart romantic. :)
The first I heard Night-Ride and Sunrise, it was the Segerstam recording on Ondine, so of course I've always loved that tone-poem :-)
Here's an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/arts/music/28sibe.html?ex=1345953600&en=5e8727def4b6a786&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) about The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which will be 70 CDs. :o
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on August 28, 2007, 07:50:12 AM
Here's an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/arts/music/28sibe.html?ex=1345953600&en=5e8727def4b6a786&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) about The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which will be 70 CDs. :o
Lemminkainen's Return
Lemminkainen Returns, Again
Just When You Thought Lemminkainen Wouldn't Go Elsewhere No More . . . .
Quote from: bhodges on August 28, 2007, 07:50:12 AM
Here's an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/arts/music/28sibe.html?ex=1345953600&en=5e8727def4b6a786&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) about The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which will be 70 CDs. :o
--Bruce
The New York Times Doesn't know how to do the umlauts in names such as Vänskä or Lemminkäinen? Pretty provincial.
Quote from: M forever on August 28, 2007, 08:27:02 AM
The New York Times Doesn't know how to do the umlauts in names such as Vänskä or Lemminkäinen? Pretty provincial.
I have noticed that, too, over the last few years. Must be something to do with their "house style," since I'm sure if they chose to do it, they could.
--Bruce
I'm in the middle of listening to Maazel's 1st with Vienna, just finished the 1st two mvmts...
:o :D
I think, my eyes possibly rolled back in my head. Wow. It, very literally, left me breathless. The horns/low brass sound completely amazing, so intense they knock the wind out of you. Well, the whole orchestra, of course. It's just incredible. Have you ever heard a recording and thought, man it's too bad there's only ONE "first time", because the first time is so overwhelming?
The crashing accelerandos, spinning the Viennese into a frenzy, the sinewy strings, round clear winds, and towering unshakable horns, this is perhaps the dream 1st, so far, for me.
I am gleeful listening to this. The way the strings bite into the ends of the phrases in the 3rd mvmt, how they play up the fugal nature of the writing. The extremely exuberant timpani. The impassioned opening of the last mvmt.
I'm going to save the 4th for tomorrow, I have to digest this a bit...I'm speechless!
8) It is a good cycle--in fact, the one that made me fall in love with Sibelius. Your post inspired me to move it up in the batting order. Maybe I'll start the day off tomorrow with the first!
Is THIS (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0000041Z3/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4460477-5431201?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1190817197&sr=8-1) the Maazel/Vienna cycle you are referring to? I'm interested in listening to it, and at that price, it's quite a bargain. :)
That's it.
Of course, once you have the Maazel cycle, then you need the single Legends disc to get his Tapiola too, thus duplicating 4 & 7. Bah.
Quote from: edward on September 26, 2007, 10:45:47 AM
Of course, once you have the Maazel cycle, then you need the single Legends disc to get his Tapiola too, thus duplicating 4 & 7. Bah.
Thankfully you can find it for just a few bucks used. Still, paying for one track...
Quote from: edward on September 26, 2007, 10:45:47 AM
Of course, once you have the Maazel cycle, then you need the single Legends disc to get his Tapiola too, thus duplicating 4 & 7. Bah.
I agree you need Maazel's Tapiola too. You can avoid duplication by finding a copy of this CD:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/FinMa.jpg)
Kord directs the New Philharmonia in the other Sibelius works. Hopefully you can find it cheaper than this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0000265DA/ref=dp_olp_2/026-1785396-5568431?ie=UTF8&qid=1190909205&sr=8-9) ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Greta on September 25, 2007, 04:17:41 PM
The crashing accelerandos, spinning the Viennese into a frenzy, the sinewy strings, round clear winds, and towering unshakable horns, this is perhaps the dream 1st, so far, for me.
It's remained my dream First for the last 34 years. Maazel's Vienna version of the Fourth is my favorite of that symphony too as I've often said here.
Sarge
Hi,
what do you think about this Finlandia?
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Finlandia2.mp3[/mp3]
Compared with many other Finlandias, this is played differently, more staccato like. The one and only performance which I like. It's from Rozhdestvensky/LSO.
EDIT: The plugin plays way too fast (here), pls download the file.
Boy, the sound quality is awful, but the performance sounds worth hearing. Can't tell much from the short clip. Have you heard Segerstam's with the HPO? That's a Finlandia performance I enjoy.
As for performances I don't enjoy...last night I put on Szell leading the RCO in the 2nd. I couldn't take it...way too pumped up and "dramatic."
Hmm, the Rozh/LSO has a rather good quality. But I converted to CBR/96, because I don't want to offer high quality pieces...
Yes I know one Segerstam/HPO, it's with choir, together with Sym. #4 iirc. Very powerful. In terms of timing I like the Rozh more.
Hey Sibelians...anyone else here have the scores and like to study them? :) I am working on obtaining the scores to the symphonies and tone poems, and they are just fascinating. Sibelius was both way ahead of his time and endearingly behind it. His writing is so utterly sophisticated, and...well, natural is somehow a good word.
I have been looking at the 5th (and the 2nd) scores recently, and I'm blown away...it's also so neat to listen to different recordings and hear how freely the writing is interpreted. The best ones (for me) take a lot of freedom within lines, with rubato, so the effect is like the rippling of a brook, or rustling of wind through the leaves. :D
I've also been checking out Volume 1 of Erik Tawastsjerna's "Sibelius" - it is amazingly good, detail to the max, discussion of he and and his relationships with contemporaries, his personal life, and great analyses of the compositions - but it is in 3 volumes (to cover his whole life) and it is incredibly expensive, plus I'm having trouble even locating where to get it. ;) (Hehe, christmas present!)
PS - There's a cycle with Oramo and the Finnish RSO now on Operashare, from the 2006 Bergen International Festival. And over on SymphonyCast's website, check out Vanska and Minnesota with a gorgeous Sibelius 2nd. And...there is indication from some who have went, that the current LA cycle is being recorded for iTunes.... 0:)
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
marvin (Sibelius Newbie)
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
marvin (Sibelius Newbie)
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Marvin, your training shall commence with recordings of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7. Others will undoubtedly wail that I've left out No. 4 (some might even challenge the exclusion of No. 1), but I'm prepared to live with this. ;D
Welcome to the world of Sibelius, my favourite composer after Beethoven.
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
Unfortunately, from what I gather, Sibelius was initially interested in Wagner, but then diverged from this path during his maturity. Even his early works don't have too many similarities (his first two symphonies are more reminicent of Tchaikovsky, for example). The unnumbered Kullervo symphony may be the nearest to Wagner, but only in it being a large and dramatic work - stylistically he is not as similar to Wagner as Bruckner was. As an original composer in his own right though, he is incredible, and with many inexpensive ways to buy his symphonies and tone poems, can be explored cheaply.
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
His music represents the frosty north :P
Thank you Mark and Lethe for the speedy response. WOW Mark, for you Sibelius comes right after Beethoven that says a lot. Lethe thanks for answering my queries regarding Wagner, and I think I'll go along with Mark and your suggestion and start with the Symphonies.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 05:28:34 AM
Thank you Mark and Lethe for the speedy response. WOW Mark, for you Sibelius comes right after Beethoven that says a lot. Lethe thanks for answering my queries regarding Wagner, and I think I'll go along with Mark and your suggestion and start with the Symphonies.
marvin
Currently on Amazon, two twofers you ought not to pass up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000041BV/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2676685-3936431?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1TK3KVD7EB703TPZFPNB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Violin-Concerto/dp/B0000041BW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/026-2676685-3936431
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
marvin (Sibelius Newbie)
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Hey, Marvin. Knowing you as a Wagnerian, hence a lover of vocal music, I'd suggest beginning your exploration with Kullervo. The Davis live LSO account is mighty fine (althought personally I prefer the slower tempos in his RCA set) and can be had for a fiver. Don't expect anything like Wagner though. Sibelius was his own man even this early in his career.
Sarge
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 05:32:07 AM
Currently on Amazon, two twofers you ought not to pass up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000041BV/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2676685-3936431?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1TK3KVD7EB703TPZFPNB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Violin-Concerto/dp/B0000041BW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/026-2676685-3936431
Thanks for the link Mark :). I'll have to pick up the Kullervo separately.
marvin
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 05:32:07 AM
Currently on Amazon, two twofers you ought not to pass up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000041BV/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2676685-3936431?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1TK3KVD7EB703TPZFPNB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Violin-Concerto/dp/B0000041BW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/026-2676685-3936431
I also like Davis's Boston cycle. His symphonies 3 and 6 are especially good (that Sixth perfect IMO). But as a first set I'd go for this one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-1-7-Jean/dp/B0000041Z3/ref=sr_1_2/202-8673089-4772615?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1193146701&sr=1-2) and it's even cheaper. Maazel and Vienna are phenomenal in the First, Fourth and Seventh.
Sarge
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 05:19:50 AM
Marvin, your training shall commence with recordings of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7.
What! You've left out
№ 4!! 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 05:49:07 AM
What! You've left out № 4!! 8)
Perhaps not the best place to start a Sibelius exploration. I agree with Mark.
Sarge
So many great Sibelius cycles for so little money :D The Sanderling/Brilliant Classics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Box-Set/dp/B0000695SN) one is very worthy, plus the Berglund/EMI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Tone-Poems/dp/B00005MIZT) - I agree that the Davis/Boston (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-5-Jean/dp/B0000041BV/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/202-8402122-3750216) cycle is minutely better than his LSO/RCA (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B00011KOF4) one, which in turn is better than his LSO Live cycle (excepting the Kullervo (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Kullervo-London-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B000E42MQ2) which is very, very good).
The Davis LSO/RCA set also comes with a Kullervo which means that Marvin could pick them all up at once - but this obsession with boxed sets is perhaps bad to force on someone who doesn't even know if they like the music yet :D
Edit: Linked each set for convenience.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 05:49:07 AM
What! You've left out № 4!! 8)
I was just listening to No. 4 when I began reading the new posts in this thread and I would agree with skipping No. 4 in the beginning. Actually, I might save No. 7 for a later date as well. From my personal experience, it took a while to get into that symphony.
Quote from: Keemun on October 23, 2007, 05:57:13 AM
I was just listening to No. 4 when I began reading the new posts in this thread and I would agree with skipping No. 4 in the beginning. Actually, I might save No. 7 for a later date as well. From my personal experience, it took a while to get into that symphony.
Indeedie. Many would add number 6 so the list, but that was the one which grabbed me first...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2007, 05:50:45 AM
Perhaps not the best place to start a Sibelius exploration. I agree with Mark.
Sarge
Quote from: Keemun on October 23, 2007, 05:57:13 AM
I was just listening to No. 4 when I began reading the new posts in this thread and I would agree with skipping No. 4 in the beginning. Actually, I might save No. 7 for a later date as well. From my personal experience, it took a while to get into that symphony.
[ A ] Consider this not quite in the light of opposition . . . regarding
Mark's statement:
Quote from: Our esteemed MarkMarvin, your training shall commence with recordings of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7.
The training is commencing not with any
one symphony (to which I might propose the substitution of
№ 4), but with some 2+ hours of music, all the symphonies
but № 4 (and
1) (and I'm okay with
Mark living with my mini-wail).
[ B ] You never know; for some people,
№ 4 may be the
Sibelius Lever. All I say is, it's possible (the freethinker in me).
For what it's worth, the symphonies that really got me back into Sibelius (after hearing mostly 1, 2 and 5 when young) were 4 and 7. :)
I still don't have much time for 1 & 2, but subsequently have grown to love 3, 5 and particularly 6.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 06:12:17 AM
[ B ] You never know; for some people, № 4 may be the Sibelius Lever. All I say is, it's possible (the freethinker in me).
Absolutely...and the Fourth
is his masterpiece. Nonetheless it's not the work I'd first recomend for a Sibelius beginner. What surprises me is Mark leaving out the First, which is the symphony I'd start Marvin with...but then I'm a chronological kind of guy ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2007, 06:40:26 AM
What surprises me is Mark leaving out the First, which is the symphony I'd start Marvin with...but then I'm a chronological kind of guy ;D
Sarge
I guess everyone has a different 'biting point' with these symphonies; for me, it was No. 2 (I never really 'got' No. 1 for quite some time). And thanks for the link to the Maazel. :)
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 06:43:18 AM
I guess everyone has a different 'biting point' with these symphonies; for me, it was No. 2 (I never really 'got' No. 1 for quite some time). And thanks for the link to the Maazel. :)
It's just not me and my oddball taste: M and a few others also have a very high opinion of certain symphonies in Maazel's Vienna cycle...and it's dirt cheap. Well worth a purchase.
Although I fell immediately in love with Finlandia when I was a teen (played it in high school band) I didn't really connect with Sibelius until I heard Maazel conduct the Fifth in Cleveland (December 1972, I think). A few months later I heard the Second in Cincinnati and that cemented the deal :)
Sarge
OK now I am intrigued, what is it about the 4th Symphony that sets it apart from the rest? different sound texture? style? is it more complex musically? whats really going on here ??? ?? When I first approached Bruckner's symphonies I started at the beginning and moved sequentially culminating in the 9th that seemed to work out great for me....now from what I am reading I have to go through a juggling act with Sibelius, skipping the 4th till the end..but before I join the circus I would like to know why?
PS: I am keen on acquiring all of Sibelius' symphonies but if listening requires some variation in order then I am just going to have to live with it!!
marvin
I got into Sibelius through symphonies 4 and 7 and Tapiola. The 4th I still don't understand, but I liked the 7th almost immediately. I'll have to give the 4th another listen to remember what it is I find confusing.
I'm going to listen to his Fourth again this evening when all here is quiet. I need to refresh my memory ...
Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2007, 11:54:29 AM
OK now I am intrigued, what is it about the 4th Symphony that sets it apart from the rest? different sound texture? style? is it more complex musically? whats really going on here ??? ?? When I first approached Bruckner's symphonies I started at the beginning and moved sequentially culminating in the 9th that seemed to work out great for me....now from what I am reading I have to go through a juggling act with Sibelius, skipping the 4th till the end..but before I join the circus I would like to know why?
PS: I am keen on acquiring all of Sibelius' symphonies but if listening requires some variation in order then I am just going to have to live with it!!
marvin
Going from symphony no.1 to no.7 chronologically would be an excellent idea if you have the will, as his evolving style is remarkable to trace :) The first two are his most accessable, the 3rd is an excellent bridge into his new style. The 4th isn't as oppressive as we make it sound, it's just a little "dark" and "cold" compared to some of his other works - and if you already have the previous three (and possibly Kullervo) under your belt before listening, it has no chance of alienating you.
Note that there is much crossover between his symphonies and tone poems, to the extent that it is difficult to know where one starts and the other ends. His 7th symphony is a very refined single movement work (although it can be divided into sections for CDs, but it is continuously played throughout), and in some ways his tone poem Tapiola is almost his 8th symphony, as it feels very natural coming after the single movement 7th. His tone poems are an equally important area of his work to his symphonies, so if you are looking to choose between various cheap boxed sets, perhaps pick one with a good selection of them - or supplement your purchase with a tone poem disc :)
Quote from: Lethe on October 23, 2007, 12:16:38 PM
The first two are his most accessable, the 3rd is an excellent bridge into his new style. The 4th isn't as oppressive as we make it sound, it's just a little "dark" and "cold" compared to some of his other works . . . .
And I delight in the sequence of the
Third,
Fourth,
Fifth and
Sixth, because no two of them have the same character. A major voice doesn't sing the same song all the time.
Quote from: Lethe on October 23, 2007, 12:16:38 PM
Going from symphony no.1 to no.7 chronologically would be an excellent idea if you have the will, as his evolving style is remarkable to trace :) The first two are his most accessable, the 3rd is an excellent bridge into his new style. The 4th isn't as oppressive as we make it sound, it's just a little "dark" and "cold" compared to some of his other works - and if you already have the previous three (and possibly Kullervo) under your belt before listening, it has no chance of alienating you.
Note that there is much crossover between his symphonies and tone poems, to the extent that it is difficult to know where one starts and the other ends. His 7th symphony is a very refined single movement work (although it can be divided into sections for CDs, but it is continuously played throughout), and in some ways his tone poem Tapiola is almost his 8th symphony, as it feels very natural coming after the single movement 7th. His tone poems are an equally important area of his work to his symphonies, so if you are looking to choose between various cheap boxed sets, perhaps pick one with a good selection of them - or supplement your purchase with a tone poem disc :)
Thanks Lethe for the reassurance on the 4th and the tip on the tone poems, as I prepare to make my amazon purchase I will keep all these points in mind.
marvin
Oh, tone-poems, now! the following are Essential!!
Valse triste, Opus 44 No. 1
Pohjola's daughter (Pohjolan tytär), Opus 49
Night-Ride and Sunrise (Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu), Opus 55
Luonnotar, Opus 70
Tapiola, Opus 112
And the incidental music to The Tempest is below the green lemon, as well.
The Oceanides is my favorite. :)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 12:41:03 PM
Oh, tone-poems, now! the following are Essential!!
Valse triste, Opus 44 No. 1
Pohjola's daughter (Pohjolan tytär), Opus 49
Night-Ride and Sunrise (Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu), Opus 55
Luonnotar, Opus 70
Tapiola, Opus 112
And the incidental music to The Tempest is below the green lemon, as well.
Everything this man says in this post is true. You must buy recordings of all of these without delay. 8)
Quote from: Corey on October 23, 2007, 12:43:47 PM
The Oceanides is my favorite. :)
Oh, I
knew I should omit one, whose omission I would immediately rue! :)
The Oceanides is the one I obsess most over, too. The ones which I consider very important:
En Saga
The Dryad
Pohjola's Daughter
Finlandia
Night Ride and Sunrise
The Bard
Tapiola
The Oceanides
Luonnotar
Lemminkäinen Suite (a collection)
Scènes Historiques I & II (collections)
Valse Triste (not really a tone poem, but popular)
There are a few hidden gems, but those seem to be the major ones.
Quote from: Lethe on October 23, 2007, 12:51:37 PM
Valse Triste (not really a tone poem, but popular)
Granted; originally incidental music.
The fourth... what to make of that last movement??
Quote from: Corey on October 23, 2007, 02:00:53 PM
The fourth... what to make of that last movement??
This symphony is, in general, the odd-man-out in the cycle as a whole. It doesn't endear itself to you in the way the others so immediately can. 'Dark', 'cold', 'brooding', 'melancholy' - all these words have been used to describe it, and rightly so. It seems so desperately sad, particularly in the third movement. Painfully so, almost.
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:09:20 PM
This symphony is, in general, the odd-man-out in the cycle as a whole. It doesn't endear itself to you in the way the others so immediately can. 'Dark', 'cold', 'brooding', 'melancholy' - all these words have been used to describe it, and rightly so. It seems so desperately sad, particularly in the third movement. Painfully so, almost.
Yes, I'm not ashamed to admit my eyes always get misty during the third movement. The fourth movement is just totally baffling to me.
Quote from: Corey on October 23, 2007, 02:12:12 PM
The fourth movement is just totally baffling to me.
Surprises me that you say this. I hear the fourth movement as pretty inevitable after its predecessors. It's almost as though what's most co-ordinated and lyrical from the first three movements is making an attempt to bring light to this darkest of Sibelius' symphonies before it closes. It's very Mahlerian, in a way - I hear parallels between this final movement and the scherzo of Mahler's Fifth.
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:19:11 PM
Surprises me that you say this. I hear the fourth movement as pretty inevitable after its predecessors. It's almost as though what's most co-ordinated and lyrical from the first three movements is making an attempt to bring light to this darkest of Sibelius' symphonies before it closes. It's very Mahlerian, in a way - I hear parallels between this final movement and the scherzo of Mahler's Fifth.
You think so? I thought the mixture of the two keys (I'm not really sure which exactly, but it sounds like two keys) lends it a farcical air. I would go so far as to say it sounds
sick. (I apologize for the wording, but I can't really describe it any other way.)
There's actually some relevent information about the finale on Wikipedia (that thing just keeps getting bigger/more useful :)):
Edit: URL fix. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Sibelius))
Quote from: Corey on October 23, 2007, 02:24:45 PM
I would go so far as to say it sounds sick.
Or perhaps, an attempt to laugh in the face of sickness? The whole work has a sick quality to it - you can imagine it on its deathbed. ;D Then, at the last, an attempt at humour; one final moment of joviality (a little warped, maybe) before it 'dies'.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bgo8tWiEL._SS500_.jpg)
Just been through this set again (15cds), and again. Can't get to grips of the two cds which are jam packed with Sibelius' lieder. As dandy as Von Otter and Groop are, the songs just don't appeal at all and my interest was quickly lost. 'Till Havs' is still my favourite song but it needs to be in the male voice for me, that goes to a lot of these songs.
What say, I heard there's a huge project in the pipelines. Anyone know who's doing what and are they starting from Scratch? As the above set covers the majority of the orchestral works. Hope the new project can justify an outlay, hope so.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 23, 2007, 02:36:39 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bgo8tWiEL._SS500_.jpg)
Just been through this set again (15cds), and again. Can't get to grips of the two cds which are jam packed with Sibelius' lieder. As dandy as Von Otter and Groop are, the songs just don't appeal at all and my interest was quickly lost. 'Till Havs' is still my favourite song but it needs to be in the male voice for me, that goes to a lot of these songs.
What say, I heard there's a huge project in the pipelines. Anyone know who's doing what and are they starting from Scratch? As the above set covers the majority of the orchestral works. Hope the new project can justify an outlay, hope so.
I almost bought that until I discovered that they were going to do complete volumes of each genre seperately. I'm going to buy the complete symphonies, tone poems and (depending on what their definition of it includes) incidental music volumes. That essential set is nice, but lacks quite a few tone poems, and only includes some of his incidental music, which is probably the strongest of his lesser known output. The misc. set also includes some discs of stuff that I am totally uninterested in.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 23, 2007, 02:36:39 PM
What say, I heard there's a huge project in the pipelines. Anyone know who's doing what and are they starting from Scratch? As the above set covers the majority of the orchestral works. Hope the new project can justify an outlay, hope so.
You referring to this: BIS - Sibelius Edition (http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/bis_sibelius-edition.php?storyID=2869&newssectionID=1)
I think it's re-releases of existing recordings, with new stuff recorded to fill in all the gaps. It'll all be finished by 2010. I'm looking forward to adding every note of Sibelius to my collection via this enterprise. :)
That's it,
I have most of the first two planned issues and I can see this doing my head in being a completist....just like this Sony 60cd Beethoven Box is doing my head in, I sit up at nights thinking about the other 25 cds to complete every note :D Sad, but true. But I suppose 60cds is a fair old slice of Beethoven, so I mustn't think too hard about the other works.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 23, 2007, 02:46:11 PM
That's it,
I have most of the first two planned issues and I can see this doing my head in being a completist....just like this Sony 60cd Beethoven Box is doing my head in, I sit up at nights thinking about the other 25 cds to complete every note :D Sad, but true. But I suppose 60cds is a fair old slice of Beethoven, so I mustn't think too hard about the other works.
Do what I did with the Beethoven: get the Brilliant Classics box set (though go for the 100-CD version, which has the 15 discs of 'old cracklies' which I know you'll enjoy. ;D).
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 06:43:18 AM
I guess everyone has a different 'biting point' with these symphonies; for me, it was No. 2 (I never really 'got' No. 1 for quite some time). And thanks for the link to the Maazel. :)
Yeah, same here, it took really the "right" performance for me to click with the 1st.
Marvin! Welcome to what shall be an amazing journey, I know it has been for me (and still is currently), I can honestly say Sibelius is right under Wagner for me (yes, I am also a Wagnerian!), tied with Mahler. :D That's my "composer trifecta" ;)
Heck, why not go in order, which is what I did - Kullervo and the Lemminkainen Legends suite (and I think En Saga?) come first - I love all Sibelius, but man, his early period is astoundingly good. Lusty, passionate, extremely attractive music. Kullervo has risen to become one of my favorite pieces - period. And Lemminkainen and the Maidens of Saari, it's way up there as well, it to my ears owes quite a debt to Tristan (depending on interpretation).
Right now, I would recommend Vanska/Lahti SO on BIS (with the original versions) or Segerstam/Helsinki PO on Ondine for Lemminkainen, great playing, lots of detail. I would like to hear Paavo Jarvi with Stockholm and especially Mikko Franck with Swedish RSO, who takes time to smell the roses. ;)
Salonen also made great, colorful recordings of Kullervo, Lemminkainen and En Saga on Sony with Los Angeles, now OOP and really worth getting if you see them around.
Also the historical recordings such as Ormandy with Philadelphia (big first advocates of Sibelius in America), and Horst and Stein are pretty special.
Kullervo - man, there are a lot of great ones, and often also in the sets - I have a personal fondness for Saraste with Finnish RSO and Berglund with Helsinki PO - one thing I love about both of these is the very idiomatic playing. For me, I prefer the northern European orchestras in Sibelius, they have an honest, natural (rhythmically) way of playing the music that feels so right. He was quite influenced by folk music of the region, and occasionally the language, these elements the northern orchestras understand so well, it's in their blood.
The symphonies:
I'd go in order, you don't have to, but it's fun to see how he kept honing and refining his writing while still trying to express new moods and colors. Throw the tone poems in along the way - which isn't hard as they come as fillers quite often.
And don't be scared of the 4th - I mean it's forward-looking, but it's not Schoenberg, it's really beautiful, very inward. The symphonies aren't terribly long, but you'll want to come back often, as his writing is so condensed and his themes and form evolve so gradually and organically, they are fascinating works to revisit.
Don't forget Luonnotar, and his Songs either, the Violin Concerto (which you've probably heard), and do pick up one of the Works for Violin and Orchestra discs out there, his chamber orchestra stuff is perfectly delightful. :)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 23, 2007, 02:36:39 PM
Can't get to grips of the two cds which are jam packed with Sibelius' lieder. As dandy as Von Otter and Groop are, the songs just don't appeal at all and my interest was quickly lost.
If you haven't already seek out
Luonnotar. Of all the songs it's the most apt to convert someone. In its orchestral arrangement its scope is impressive. Equaling that of the symphonies. Though (admittedly) I wouldn't know how it rates w/ piano accompaniment.
Quote from: Corey on October 23, 2007, 02:24:45 PM
You think so? I thought the mixture of the two keys (I'm not really sure which exactly, but it sounds like two keys) lends it a farcical air.
That's how I view the last movement of the fourth too. Letting out some much needed steam after all that moroseness.
Congratulations, Marvin--you're about to discover one of the very few GIANTS of music. A peerless craftsman with a singular voice, Sibelius is best discovered chronologically through the symphonies and tone poems and incidental music comprising his serious output. This body of work reflects and reveals a spiritual journey; the quizzical Fourth, a turning point.
You might find the Sibelius thread on the old GMG forum (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,43.0.html) interesting.
Greta, thank you for reminding me of my single favourite Sibelius work: the Violin Concerto. 0:)
This is an astonishingly good piece, with loads to hold your interest from the first notes to the very last. If I may, I'd like to recommend a recording which I suspect is more idiosyncratic than idiomatic - that with soloist, Ida Haendel, supported by Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (my home band :)). The sound Haendel draws out of her violin is quite something, and I often liken her interpretation of this to Du Pre's of the Elgar Cello Concerto: neither is, perhaps, what the composers had in mind, but both blow you away with their intensity and depth of personal commitment. ;)
Quote from: Greta on October 23, 2007, 03:20:11 PM
Right now, I would recommend Vanska/Lahti SO on BIS
That's my favourite too, although I think even when they are reissued in the "edition" volume, they probably won't compare favourably with many others in price.
Edit: WTF - the projected release for the symphonies box is
March 2010 (http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/bis_sibelius-edition.php).
Warning: for true hardcore Sibelians only. The narration is in Finnish and the film is boring. However, I'd like to see any footage from, say, Beethoven's funeral, if any were available. :D
http://www.yle.fi/elavaarkisto/?s=s&g=4&ag=26&t=117
The last link "Sibeliuksen hautajaiset" will take you to Sibelius' funeral.
Ooh, I'll have to check that out later this week!
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:19:11 PM
Surprises me that you say this. I hear the fourth movement as pretty inevitable after its predecessors. It's almost as though what's most co-ordinated and lyrical from the first three movements is making an attempt to bring light to this darkest of Sibelius' symphonies before it closes. It's very Mahlerian, in a way - I hear parallels between this final movement and the scherzo of Mahler's Fifth.
I hear what is perhaps a more relevant parallel with the Finale of Mahler's Sixth...which ends, like the Sibelius Fourth, in an absolutely desolate A minor.
Sarge
Quote from: Lethe on October 23, 2007, 12:51:37 PM
The Oceanides is the one I obsess most over, too. The ones which I consider very important:
En Saga
The Dryad
Pohjola's Daughter
Finlandia
Night Ride and Sunrise
The Bard
Tapiola
The Oceanides
Luonnotar
Lemminkäinen Suite (a collection)
Scènes Historiques I & II (collections)
Valse Triste (not really a tone poem, but popular)
There are a few hidden gems...
The Wood Nymph Op.15 is one. It's a tremendous piece and I can't understand why it's not recorded more often. It should be in every Sibelian's collection.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2007, 06:14:07 AM
The Wood Nymph Op.15 is one. It's a tremendous piece and I can't understand why it's not recorded more often. It should be in every Sibelian's collection.
Hmm, I should've included that, especially with the recent discussion on it, but forgot :)
The recent LA Phil performance of the 2nd Symphony from their cycle is on iTunes already, actually I'm listening to it now...will have to comment later more.
There are interesting ideas, some which work less well than others, and crisp lean playing (horns and general brass sound really good), but the focus is more technical than emotional. Except for the Andante, which does get pretty intense. Generally quick tempos. Reminds me a little of Saraste's live recording.
It's kind of...well, odd, though according to M forever this was supposed to be the dud of the bunch anyway. I'd be interested to hear the others, hopefully they will be also be released.
I'm not sure Salonen really has baldy's measure, anyway. The recordings I've heard strike me as well-executed but safely mainstream without fresh insights. Still, I'd jump at a reasonable opportunity to hear him in person!
"Baldy"? Oh the indignity . . . .
Quote from: longears on October 31, 2007, 04:35:34 AM
I'm not sure Salonen really has baldy's measure, anyway.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2007, 06:13:17 AM
"Baldy"? Oh the indignity . . . .
Might I give the thread title a tweak to reflect this new image of...baldy? ;)
Quote from: Greta on October 23, 2007, 03:20:11 PM
Right now, I would recommend Vanska/Lahti SO on BIS ...
Wow! I'm soooooooooooo glad I didn't wait around to pick up the symphonies as conducted by Vanska. I've only heard Nos. 2 and 3 so far, and while I'll quibble everso slightly with his reading of the central movement of the Third Symphony - I think this should be a touch 'icier' than Vanska conducts it - these two have pushed this cycle into pole position ... so far. ;)
I was particularly moved (almost to real tears) but the groundswells of emotion Vanska conjures up at several points throughout the Second Symphony; and I was impressed by the fact that, for the first time, I felt I could 'see' the structure of both symphonies, not just hear them. On this evidence, I'm looking forward to listening to the rest. :)
While cheating doing some comparative listening in order to join in M Forever's new Mystery Orchestra thread, I dug out Sanderling's account of the Second Symphony (Brilliant Classics reissue). Skipping ahead to the section which corresponds to that of the clips posted in M's thread - and with volume up all the way and headphones on - I noticed something weird: a fast string section playing something entirely different to Sibelius, only VERY, VERY faintly in the quiet point in the third movement between the fading of the timpani and the oboe theme's entry (1' 30" approx.). I 'rewound' a few times: it was still there. WTF? :o
Is this just a shoddy reissue fault, or can anyone with the original set confirm or deny the appearance of this 'ghost' string section. ???
Quote from: Mark on December 02, 2007, 02:47:19 PM
While cheating doing some comparative listening in order to join in M Forever's new Mystery Orchestra thread, I dug out Sanderling's account of the Second Symphony (Brilliant Classics reissue). Skipping ahead to the section which corresponds to that of the clips posted in M's thread - and with volume up all the way and headphones on - I noticed something weird: a fast string section playing something entirely different to Sibelius, only VERY, VERY faintly in the quiet point in the third movement between the fading of the timpani and the oboe theme's entry (1' 30" approx.). I 'rewound' a few times: it was still there. WTF? :o
Is this just a shoddy reissue fault, or can anyone with the original set confirm or deny the appearance of this 'ghost' string section. ???
Are you absolutely certain it's not some kind of residual decay or echo or something?
What are the recording's origins? Is it live, or perhaps a radio relay? Sometimes performances taken from radio relays can have momentary fade-in from another station.
Live performances in general can have all sorts of intrusions (as we all know). If some unthinking person had their iPod turned up too high...
I don't have the recording handy to check right now - I have it, and that doesn't mean that it is one of the recordings I used in Mystery Orchestra, and it doesn't mean it isn't either, maybe it is, or maybe not, I just can't find it right now since I started reorganizing my CD collection yesterday which means it is now in greater chaos than ever before - but the effect described by Mark is probably an analog tape print-through. That may no be the correct technical term in English though. What it means is that sometimes over the years, layers of analog tape tightly wound against each other influence the magnetization of neighboring layers and leave such ghost images. Those who still know MC know this unwanted effect. It is really hard to get rid of, too.
Quote from: donwyn on December 02, 2007, 05:45:14 PM
Are you absolutely certain it's not some kind of residual decay or echo or something?
What are the recording's origins? Is it live, or perhaps a radio relay? Sometimes performances taken from radio relays can have momentary fade-in from another station.
It's studio AFAIK, Don. :-\ I first thought of headphone 'spill', but that didn't make any sense. Then M said this:
Quote from: M forever on December 02, 2007, 06:20:59 PM
... the effect described by Mark is probably an analog tape print-through. That may no be the correct technical term in English though. What it means is that sometimes over the years, layers of analog tape tightly wound against each other influence the magnetization of neighboring layers and leave such ghost images. Those who still know MC know this unwanted effect. It is really hard to get rid of, too.
This is precisely what it sounds like - I remember I used to get it with tape cassettes many years ago. Bloody annoying, but only perceptible at high volume through cans, so not the end of the world.
As it's the 90th Independence Day of Finland, I think I'll listen to Finlandia, Op.26, now. :)
What is your favourite recording of this symphonic poem ?
Well I'll have to listen to it today as well. I know a lot of Finlandias. There can be only one. Rozhdestvensky/LSO. A matter of taste though. It's conducted a bit different than most others (e.g. Ashkenazy). Some more staccato like passages, a bit slower, more dramatic. Excerpt: Here. (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Finlandia2.mp3) Great sound.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5123F0AC6SL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 06, 2007, 09:32:47 PM
I know a lot of Finlandias. There can be only one.
I beg to differ; but I do respect your admiration for that one recording.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2007, 06:14:07 AMThe Wood Nymph Op.15 is one. It's a tremendous piece and I can't understand why it's not recorded more often. It should be in every Sibelian's collection.
The wood nymph has always been top of the tops of my favorite Sibelius orchestral works, so mighty and traaaagic in the end!
A very good article about the wood nymph, --> here. (http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/mainframe?readform&B950447BF8E56E8FC225682D003AD6A7)
Currently I'm discovering En Saga, together with the Oceanides the last orchestral works I do not know. Oh, En Saga seems great. Especially the the conclusion, it's so peaceful und lovely...
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 12, 2007, 02:17:32 AM
The wood nymph has always been top of the tops of my favorite Sibelius orchestral works
Same here. Sibelius' style works well in tone poems.
Sibelius's style also works brilliant well in his symphonies, Poju. Once again, the fact that you do not care for something (for instance, the Rakhmaninov Vespers) is no indication — no indication whatever — of any "lack of musical merit."
In reading
The Cambridge Companion to Sibelius, in Julian Anderson's chapter on Sibelius's influence on contemporary music, I found the following quote from Magnus Lindberg:
QuoteI have often said that it is a pity that Sibelius was Finnish! His music has been deeply misunderstood. While his language was far from modern, his thinking, as far as form and the treatment of materials is concerned, was ahead of its time. While Varese is credited with opening the way for new sonorities, Sibelius has himself pursued a profound reassessment of the formal and structural problems of composition. I do not think it is fair that he has been considered as a conservative...His harmonies have a resonant, almost spectral quality. You find an attention to sonority in Sibelius works which is actually not so far removed from that which would appear long after in the work of Grisey or Murail...For me, the crucial aspect of this work remains his conception of continuity. In Tapiola, above all, the way genuine processes are created using very limited materials is pretty exceptional.
Later Anderson quotes an anecdote related by Morton Feldman about how much he and Takemitsu liked Sibelius to illustrate his (Feldman's) dictum that "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people who you think are conservative might really be radical."
Beautiful!
Quote from: longears on December 26, 2007, 06:08:28 AM
In reading The Cambridge Companion to Sibelius, in Julian Anderson's chapter on Sibelius's influence on contemporary music, I found the following quote from Magnus Lindberg:
Later Anderson quotes an anecdote related by Morton Feldman about how much he and Takemitsu liked Sibelius to illustrate his (Feldman's) dictum that "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people who you think are conservative might really be radical."
Interesting, I was thinking the other day how I get similar things from Varèse and Sibelius. In
Ameriques, V. wanted to create the illusion of objects in space with his orchestration. I get that feeling in most Sibelius (esp.
Tapiola), and as a bonus, it's actually musical. ;D
Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:13:07 AM
Beautiful!
He also cites a long letter from Per Nørgård to Sibelius in 1954 expressing Nørgård's admiration for him and surprise on discovering that Sibelius was composing with a metamorphic technique decades earlier:
QuoteIndeed, his letter continues, he is increasingly aware of the fact that Sibelius's music is virtually limitless in its depth and novel implications, in contrast to the work of other more recent composers. "You may imagine, against this background, my feelings on discovering this new, genuinely symphonic principle fully blossoming in works normally labelled under the heading of an earlier historical period of music! ...It's very possible that you have known about what I'm trying to say for a long time--and understood that it was the way it should be."
Or, from perhaps an even less likely source of praise:
Quote from: Brian Ferneyhough
Sibelius' mastery of temporal architecture makes him a "composer's composer" par excellence.
(This being on why he regarded the 7th symphony as one of his favourite works from any time period.)
Quote from: longears on December 26, 2007, 06:08:28 AM
Later Anderson quotes an anecdote related by Morton Feldman about how much he and Takemitsu liked Sibelius to illustrate his (Feldman's) dictum that "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people who you think are conservative might really be radical."
Just noticed - Alex Ross used this to cleverly close his chapter on Sibelius in
The Rest Is Noise. :D His chapter "Sibelius, An Apparition in the Woods" is great reading, as he delves into Sibelius' place in the 20th century...in such a large and comprehensive book, it's nice to see Ross give such weight to him.
I have posted before about my affection for early Sibelius - in a discussion elsewhere, people were pondering the evolution of his symphonic self, and I had noticed that in the long foreword to the score for Kullervo (by Glenda Dawn Goss), it is concluded that Sibelius did indeed consider the work a "symphony", though unnumbered, and always referred to it as such.
And in addition, afterward came the 4 Lemminkainen Legends, which to me are so evocative of being a symphony in the structure and length, that I honestly have always thought of them as such. So, the case could be made that the Legends would qualify as his Symphony No. "0", and therefore, Kullervo his Symphony No. "00".
Because I think these works were extremely important in him leading up to, and finding his "symphonic self", at least that is how they seem to me. Thoughts?
Hello everyone,
Some of JS' small orchestral pieces are really really beautyful. They aren't played or heard too often... Do some come to your mind? Do you have recommendations? 2 pieces come to my mind, do you know them?
1. "Canzonetta, Op.62a" (66b is Valse romantique). It's a rather contemplative song, the pizziccato string bass gives it a good "swing".
Here's an excerpt: [mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Canzonetta%20Op.62a.mp3[/mp3]
2. "Act II, No.9, Lento" of Swanwhite op. 54 - Can be found on the Wood Nymph recording from BIS. Nice.
Michael
I like The Bard and Scene with Cranes (the latter is often played as a stand alone piece).
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 29, 2008, 05:23:24 AM
I like The Bard and Scene with Cranes (the latter is often played as a stand alone piece).
Those are both delightful. I first heard
The Bard live at
Symphony. The
Scene with Cranes is part of the incidental music which gave us the
Valse triste, IIRC
You RC, dude! Pageant music.
It's nice to see this thread resurrected. I mourn the loss of the old thread on the now inaccessible old forum. It had many thoughtful comments and fine recommendations--as did some other old threads now lost.
After a break of several months during which I've scarcely listened to Sibelius, I think it's about time to remedy that. ;D
That's the really great thing about the depth and variety of the literature: I often dwell with a particular pocket of the lit, and then my ears are fresh to return to another well-loved composer, without tiring of anything :)
Oh yes, I like the Bard. The Scene with cranes, yes, listened to it once, I'll give it another try. BTW I don't know what's so good about the Valse Triste. It never became a friend of mine.
Don't know how to vouch for it; I've just always liked it. In fact, I've arranged it for cl/vn/pf trio.
I need to remember, this evening, to pack up the Lenny/NY Phil symphonies set to fetch back in to the office; want to revisit that.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2008, 03:56:01 AM
I need to remember, this evening, to pack up the Lenny/NY Phil symphonies set to fetch back in to the office; want to revisit that.
That's a good un! Maybe I'll follow suit, and take them sequentially. Though I've already resumed some Sibelius listening, with Maazel's
Tapiola and Segerstam's 4th.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on April 29, 2008, 03:02:57 AM
Hello everyone,
Some of JS' small orchestral pieces are really really beautyful. They aren't played or heard too often... Do some come to your mind?
I love the beauty, and resignation, in Prospero, from the incidental music to The Tempest:
...I'll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I'll drown my book.
The second movement of Scènes Historiques Op.25, Scena, is quite appealing to me; the drama and militant majesty.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2008, 05:35:39 AMI love the beauty, and resignation, in Prospero, from the incidental music to The Tempest:[/i]
Don't know that one, but hey, how could I forget: "ANTONIO - DANCE OF THE SHAPES" from the Tempest. It's very, very powerful and pure fun, great melody, makes you feel great, good stuff for spring maybe. I have it as an audio file of Vänskä/Lahti, a Radio recording. I like it when the beginning is played Klezmer like.
EDIT: I remember it's uploaded somewhere. As it was from a radio broadcast, here's the file, listen yourself, you won't be disappointed. Very accessible:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Antonio.%20Dance%20of%20the%20Shapes.mp3[/mp3]
QuoteThe second movement of Scènes Historiques Op.25, Scena, is quite appealing to me; the drama and militant majesty.
Oh, I've got it somewhere, should give it a first try, have never listened to them. There's also another Scenes Historiques IIRC.
Sarge
The music for The Tempest is wonderful, indeed, as is his other theatre music--none of which is as well known as it deserves. Saraste's complete recording with Monica Groop floats my boat, but the Segerstam disc with both suites is a fine introduction. Think I'll pop that in now, following Ms Hahn's gorgeous Lark Ascending.
I've been struggling to try and understand Sibelius for a while now, but I think the 4th may be my way in. I urge anyone that hasn't to listen to Stephen Johnson's brilliant lecture on this symphony at BBC's Discovering Music archive (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/audioarchive.shtml) (just scroll down to Sibelius and then click on the audio link to the 4th Symphony). I had previously thought Sibelius was too traditional and that was part of what deterred me, but this analysis has shown me how modern he really can be. Where Schoenberg was radical in his approach to harmony by adding so many chromatic notes that the sense of a home key became lost, Sibelius is equally radical but in a different way. He pits several keys against each other, so that by the time we get to the end of the symphony and it ends simply in A Minor it doesn't sound simple at all! All the other elements are radical in their own ways as well: his rhythm - the way he overlaps the cellos and basses at the introduction of the first movement, the way he seemingly has two tempos moving at the same time in various parts - but above all his approach to form. I love the "organic growth" and the way he lets his themes and motives decide the form on their own rather than predefining a structure, so that any sense of sonata form/ternary/etc disappears and the boundaries of development/recapitulation cannot be defined, and rather don't really exist at all but instead give way to a new process unique to Sibelius.
By the way, here's a quick little question for anyone who has the score to this symphony:
The 4-note motif which permeates the finale (A-B-C#-B) - is it written for glockenspiel or tubular bells? On Blomstedt's recording, it is played on tubular bells, but on the recording I heard used on BBC's Discovering Music analysis of the work it is played on glockenspiel. I have also seen it referred to elsewhere as a glockenspiel melody. Maybe Sibelius just wrote "bells" in the score and Blomstedt interpreted this to mean tubular bells? What instrument is it played on in other recordings?
Quote from: Symphonien on May 04, 2008, 05:08:53 AM
Maybe Sibelius just wrote "bells" in the score and Blomstedt interpreted this to mean tubular bells? What instrument is it played on in other recordings?
Here are a few examples. I hope others will "chime" in with other performances. I'll keep adding to the list.
GlockenspielMaazel/Vienna
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Berglund/COE
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Vänskä/Lahti SO
Karajan/Berlin Phil (DG)
Karajan/Berlin Phil (EMI)
Segerstam/Helsinki
Beecham/RPO
Barbirolli/Hallé
Sakari/Iceland
Kegel/Dresden
Rattle/CBSO
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow
Sanderling/Berlin SO
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Inkinen/New Zealand SO
Tubular BellsBernstein/NY Phil
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Blomstedt/San Francisco
Ansermet/Suisse Romande
Stokowski
Glockenspiel and Tubular BellsMaazel/Pittsburgh
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Davis/Boston
Järvi/Gothenburg
Szell/Cleveland
Reiner/Chicago
Szell and Reiner begin with the glockenspiel, then add tubular bells, and end with just bells.
I think the combination of instruments is the most effective. Davis, for example, begins with glockenspiel, uses bells only in the central climax, and has both appear near the symphony's end, which make those bars sound even more chaotic and disturbing than usual.
Sarge
Thanks for the listing, Sarge. IIRC Berglund's other recordings also use glockenspiel, as do Rozhdestvensky, Rattle, Sanderling, and Maazel/Pittsburg. But it was Bernstein's NYPO recording that turned me on to this piece. Perhaps that has something to do with why glockenspiel in the 4th movement sounds wrong to my ears. But also it's such a weighty symphony that the deep resonance of the tubular bells just seems right and the tinkly glockenspiel seems trivial.
My sources on this say that the manuscript score says "Glocken," which is "Bells" in German. Some think that he must have meant bells, i.e. tubular bells, but some argue that he could have abbreviated the word "Glockenspiel." According to Michael Steinberg, there is a letter from Sibelius in which he suggests using "Glockenspiel" in the 4th but "Stahlstäbe" for The Oceanides. However, since "Stahlstäbe" is another German word used for the instrument we know as the glockenspiel, this document which some cite as dispositive in favor of the glockenspiel actually makes a case for bells, for Sibelius was clearly trying to distinguish between the sounds he wanted for the two pieces. Bottom line: a puzzle, no more likely to be solved definitively than we are likely to discover the lost score for the 8th Symphony.
As I acquired various cycles on CD, often the first thing I would do is turn to the 4th movement of the 4th to hear whether the conductor got it right. They seldom did. I bought the complete Järvi cycle primarily because I heard that he had used both and wanted to know what that sounded like. (Good!) There is probably no more thorough Sibelius scholar among musicians today than Paavo Berglund. Beats me why he uses the damned glockenspiel! Otherwise, his COE 4th is pretty effing impeccable! Vänskä has practically made a career of "authentic" Sibelius performance, and he, too, disappoints me in this. And I cannot understand why Segerstam opted for the tinkly little steel bars in his lush and powerful reading with the HPO, but there it is. Nobody's perfect. Or at least nobody but Blomstedt and Bernstein, both of whom got this right and pretty much everything else in their respective cycles with the SFSO & NYPO.
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
Thanks for the listing, Sarge. IIRC Berglund's other recordings also use glockenspiel, as do Rozhdestvensky, Rattle, Sanderling, and Maazel/Pittsburg
Thanks for the additions, David. One correction: Maazel, in Pittsburgh, uses the glockenspiel initially but then, like Davis, switches to bells for the central climax. After that it's back to the glockenspiel.
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
But it was Bernstein's NYPO recording that turned me on to this piece. Perhaps that has something to do with why glockenspiel in the 4th movement sounds wrong to my ears.
And Karajan was my first Sibelius 4 which perhaps explains why the tubular bells sound wrong to me...at least in the first third of the symphony. As I said in my initial post, it's the combination of instruments that work best for me now. I like the glockenspiel in the beginning because it sounds so bright and optimistic. But I think the tubular bells add significantly to the central climax, sounding so much more majestic than a tinkly glockenspiel. Davis, using both instruments in the final pages, superbly depicts the chaos and disintegration.
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 04, 2008, 07:39:50 AM
My sources on this say that the manuscript score says "Glocken," which is "Bells" in German. Some think that he must have meant bel, i.e. tubular bells, but some argue that he could have abbreviated the word "Glockenspiel." Bottom line: a puzzle, no more likely to be solved definitively than we are likely to discover the lost score for the 8th Symphony.
The problem seems to be that Sibelius added a period after Glocken, suggesting it was an abbreviation for Glockenspiel instead of just
Glocken, the German word for bells. In any case, I love mysteries, and the ambiguity in Sibelius's score allows us multiple interpretations of a supreme musical masterpiece...and that's cool.
Sarge
And thanks for the emendation, Sarge.
I like both the bells and the glockenspiel, though not at the same time. I think a conductor should decide for either or, the mixed versions don't make so much sense to me. I think I would ultimately chose the bells, but the glockenspiel makes an interesting effect, too, kind of demonically (does such a word exist?) playful which fits very well in the context.
Hmm... a mystery then. Thanks for those facts Sarge and David (and especially that listing of recordings!). So it was like I suspected; just "bells", which is sometimes used to refer to the glockenspiel in English as well. I might pick up another recording some time then to see how it sounds with glockenspiel in that last movement - I'm considering getting Maazel's Vienna set next, and I've heard that one has a great 4th too. Although I haven't heard one yet, I agree with M that a version with both instruments wouldn't really make sense musicologically since I'm sure Sibelius would have made it clear if this was what he intended, although it may prove interesting to listen to.
Well, I've had a look at Sibelius threads here, but there isn't one for general Sibleian discussion.
For example, which performance of Snofrid, Op. 29 do you recommend? It has fast become one of my favourite pieces ever. I have only the one version, Vanska with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra, so I'd like to know what the forum thinks before I buy another of the same in the hope of something better
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so? Mines done by Scottish National Orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson: Nightride and Sunrise. Recorded in Glasgow City Halls in 1978 (released six years later I think) - there's more mystery and curiosity with the Gibson version, we know we're on the journey the title depicts and oh what a glorious sunrise! You can see the dawn sky opening up, it's getting louder, you're on that snowbound single track through Southern Finland on your way to Helsinki, and here comes the Sun, but is it, is it not, yes it is and hell the SNO and Gibson make me think just that.
Anyway, er... I am getting carried away, but I hope this post finds a life - we need more Sibelius! ;D 0:)
Here is an uncharacteristic picture of the Finnish Master - he is young and has hair. Followed by our man Sibelius in more recognisable format.
Quote from: mahler10th on September 02, 2008, 11:48:52 AM
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so? Mines done by Scottish National Orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson: Nightride and Sunrise. Recorded in Glasgow City Halls in 1978 (released six years later I think) - there's more mystery and curiosity with the Gibson version, we know we're on the journey the title depicts and oh what a glorious sunrise!
The Rattle recording with the Philharmonia is clearly better in every respect. Better played, better recorded, more characterized. Not that the Gibson version is at all bad - far from it. It is a very decent performance. This is one of the things (one of the few things, actually) that I think Rattle got totally "right".
Quote from: M forever on September 02, 2008, 11:54:01 AM
The Rattle recording with the Philharmonia is clearly better in every respect. Better played, better recorded, more characterized. Not that the Gibson version is at all bad - far from it. It is a very decent performance. This is one of the things (one of the few things, actually) that I think Rattle got totally "right".
I do not have that to compare, so great tip, it's on my next-list.
Tapiola is my favourite. As for recordings of it, I have a number of very good ones. Jarvi's DGG recording an old DGG one with Hans Rosbaud of Brucknerian fame. Beecham and Karajan made excellent recordings too.
As for the symphonies I have an excellent boxed set with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Swedish RSO. I love many of the Beecham recordings, especially of Symphony No 4.
The complete Karelia music is my recommendation to anyone who does not know it (I like the Ondine version but the BIS is fine too.) It really was a great discovery.
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen with Danish RSO is my favourite recording, very atmospheric. I like the old Koussevitsky and Kajanus symphony recordings too.
My latest Sibelius aquisition is Basil Cameron conducts Symphony No 2 and Erich Leinsdorf conducts Symphony No 5 and the Karelia Suite. These are from 1946/7. I shall listen tonight, inspired by this thread.
Rattle's Symphony 3 is excellent.
I think that Sibelius was the greatest 20th Century composer and the only one whose music I can listen to regardless of the mood I am in.
Sibelius is my favorite composer. I relate to his music in a way I don't know how to describe.
Quote from: mahler10th on September 02, 2008, 11:48:52 AM
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so?
The Oceanides — it has this feeling of the mists and dread of the unknown that is very unique in his music, indeed, I doubt there is anything else like it in all music.
Quote from: mahler10th on September 02, 2008, 11:48:52 AM
For example, which performance of Snofrid, Op. 29 do you recommend? It has fast become one of my favourite pieces ever. I have only the one version, Vanska with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra, so I'd like to know what the forum thinks before I buy another of the same in the hope of something better
It is very good, but I doubt anybody other than Järvi and Vänskä have recorded it, and I cannot imagine the former being better...
Quote from: mahler10th on September 02, 2008, 11:48:52 AM
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so?
The Oceanides (Vänskä, Berglund), The Bard (Vänskä). Oceanides... words cannot describe. The Bard has a similar organic buildup to a big event in the second half, but is a different atmosphere - warmer, delicate, naturalistic in feel (the Oceanides in comparison sounds almost ghostly). Something about the writing makes it comfort me like little else - it is stylistically a mile away from the earlier tone poems with all their turmoil.
Quote from: Lethe on September 02, 2008, 01:00:53 PM
Oceanides... words cannot describe. The Bard has a similar organic buildup to a big event in the second half, but is a different atmosphere - warmer, delicate, naturalistic in feel (the Oceanides in comparison sounds almost ghostly). Something about the writing makes it comfort me like little else - it is stylistically a mile away from the earlier tone poems with all their turmoil.
I hate saying this, but — yes, ditto. Couldn't have said it better.
I rate Tapiola among the finest tone poems written by anyone. I only have the Beecham recording from 1955.
Tapiola, The Oceanides, and Symphony No. 7 on one disc, conducted by Beecham.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51y5To%2B2tnL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I have the earlier non-GROC CD, a 1990 release. I don't know if it makes sense to get this remaster.
Quote from: Que on September 02, 2008, 01:17:29 PM
I think there is one: The Snowshoed Sibelius (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.0.html)
I will merge the threads if there are no objections.
Q
Thats ok Q. One day, and one very fine day it will be, far, far in the mystical future, I will start a thread that is original enough to NOT get merged. :-[
Anyone looking for some Sibelius off the beaten track might want to try his Swanwhite Suite, which is rather beautifully played on this disc:
Quote from: drogulus on September 02, 2008, 01:29:11 PM
I rate Tapiola among the finest tone poems written by anyone. I only have the Beecham recording from 1955.
Tapiola, The Oceanides, and Symphony No. 7 on one disc, conducted by Beecham.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51y5To%2B2tnL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I have the earlier non-GROC CD, a 1990 release. I don't know if it makes sense to get this remaster.
V good CD. The Bard and Oceanides are also favourites of mine as is In Memoriam.
Have just listened to Basil Cameron's excellent recording of Symphony No 2 (LPO, 1947, Dutton)
@mahler10th:
1. Tapiola (Blomstedt - SFSO) by far the tone poem/performance I like most. THE forest hymn. I know many Tapiolas. It is the best performance because it is the best performance. Period. ;) Good quality as well.
Listen carefully- you'll experience thousands of variations of the main theme.
2. The Wood Nymph - The BIS recording Lahti/Vänskä. Groundbreaking drama.
3. En Saga. Very refreshing! It rocks. Beautiful conclusion, I posted a piece of it somewhere here. A lot of good performances. I like Lahti/Vänskä here as well.
Nightride and Sunrise - it has a very special mood, very great. I look when I'm at home, not sure what my fav. performance was. Maybe Järvi Gothenburg. Generally, most likely you find good performances with either Vänskä/Lahti or Järvi/Gothenburg. EDIT: Yes, I like Järvi/GSO most.
In memoriam -has been mentioned- yes good, true. But only the final version. Vänskä/Lahti.
Is there a voiceless orchestral Snofrid out there?
Quote from: Wurstwasser on September 03, 2008, 01:48:13 AM
It is the best performance because it is the best performance. Period.
Thanks, that was very informative.
It's subjective, anyway. This Tapiola is as I think it should be played. The tempo is fine. You can hear many details, the great finale, which starts with this kind of violin storm, the timpanies afterwards, the last increasing of volume (pp?) in the end, just everything as I think it should be played. It's all subjective, I have no english words and not many better german words and no objective words.
OK this is objective: The performance has a good recording quality.
I don't listen to the tone poems much. I don't think any come close to the quality of the symphonies.
Quote from: eyeresist on September 03, 2008, 08:07:31 PMI don't think any come close to the quality of the symphonies.
I'm going to have to step in here after some time away and interject a little. I love music forums, as most threads yield informative or at least fun discussions about topics we all care dearly about. That said, most threads also contain sweeping generalizations that do not meet the standards of modern criticism or analysis. I don't mean to pick on eyeresist, but his statement is exactly onesuch.
While most posts in most threads are simply different ways of stating opinions, I believe it is very important to
always formulate our opinions carefully and justify them. If we slack from these standards, we risk degrading the discussions found here into pointless trumpetings of our favourite pieces.
I credit eyeresist in saying "I don't think" as opposed to "They don't come close". A good first step. But I object to his use of the word "quality". If he had said...
They don't communicate to me what the symphonies do...
The themes in the tone poems aren't as memorable to me as the ones in the ones in the symphonies...
I find them too one-dimensional when compared to the internal contrasts within each symphony...... or any variation thereof, I wouldn't be writing this post.
But eyeresist chose the term "quality". "Quality" is a term that can drive a man insane and one who's historical philosophical examination traces back to ancient Greece. In short, it is offering a value judgement about something singularily
inherent to the subject, in this case Sibelius' the tone poems. The word positions itself to uncover an element that is beyond mere opinion but directly exposes something
basic about the subject's existance.
So I ask when making a statement like the one above, that we either
qualify our opinion through musical and stringent philosophilcal examination, or simply express our opinions in less complicated ways.
I take it back. The tone poems are just as good as the symphonies.
>:D
My point was not in defence of the tone poems. It is perfectly fine that someone likes the symphonies much better.
My point was that if we are going to talk about their comparative inherent quality, we need to justify our opinions with deeper arguments.
Sorry. You should have explained yourself at length.
Quote from: Kurkikohtaus on September 04, 2008, 12:33:52 AM
My point was not in defence of the tone poems. It is perfectly fine that someone likes the symphonies much better.
My point was that if we are going to talk about their comparative inherent quality, we need to justify our opinions with deeper arguments.
Entirely agree that there is value in distinguishing between one's preferences, and what is actually a component of the music.
I like Maazel's VPO Tapiola because of the very slow phrasing of the storm sequence.
I've just recently downloaded the reissued Rattle/CBSO (EMI) set of Sibelius symphonies (plus one or two tone poems). I'm looking forward to listening to them, especially as I've so far heard and been very impressed by Rattle's take on the Second Symphony. I have numerous recordings of this work (though not, I'm ashamed to admit, the Berglund or Blomstedt), and with many of them, I get the impression that the musicians are playing the notes but not interpreting the music. Rattle - and even more so, Vanska - gives an account that sounds positively alive and makes me hear the work as though new, enriching my understanding and enjoyment of it no end. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on September 04, 2008, 06:50:39 AMI like Maazel's VPO Tapiola because of the very slow phrasing of the storm sequence.
Interesting you say "storm sequence"... It may also be turbulence amongst the wood-sprites. :D
EDIT: A bigger Tapiola review is here (http://inkpot.com/classical/sibtapiola.html).
This performance btw? (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Maazel-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B00004TTX3) Don't know this one, because usually I avoid buying that old performances.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NYHE1446L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Yes, I think that it's probably the Wood-Sprites too :)
Yes, that is the CD I meant. Don't be put off by it's age as the performances are great and the remastering excellent. But it is that slower-than-usual storm-sequence in Tapiola which is the highlight for me.
By the way, for anyone that doesn't know it, Moeran's Symphony has a great Tapiola-like-storm-sequence in the last movement. I'd recommend this work to anyone who likes Sibelius.
I am ashamed to say I listened to Sibelius's "In Memoriam" for the very first time today (from the Segerstam set). A magnificent piece of work - Sibelius at his best. ;D
Perfect use of sonorous brass, well timed gaps, nice (and appropriately dark) movements by the stings up and down the scale, building deliberately to fitting conclusions...but only to die at the end.
Wow. :o ;D
I don't know what Davis BSO/LSO has over this.
This is by far the most dramatic and exciting and grand Sibelius collection out there. The difference to almost every other box set I have is near palpable. *****
(http://www.zavvi.co.uk/images/500/500372_CD_L_F.JPG)
Segerstam DNRSO - sometimes sounds off too slow, but a dynamic interpretation nonetheless - would be better if he didn't take so many liberties here and there. ***
Davis - BSO / LSO - Very nice, as Blomstedt below, somewhat more special through 'Davis Power' but why is he so revered as a Sibelian? ****
Blomstedt SFSO - Wide, breathy and excellent, but still nothing special. ***
Maazel - PSO - aha, I don't have his VPO set which is very highly regarded indeed, but I do have his Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, which has special moments but not 'even' enough to be regarded as a great set. **
Rattle - CBSO - Rattle doing magic with sonics but not with Sibelius. ***
Vanska / Jarvi - Lahti - Such a very different approach to Ashkenazy, but well on the money, clear and broad melodics make for great listening. *****
A lot of the stuff in the Ashlenazy box is indeed very exciting, thanks to the driven, intense character of the performances and the great contributions of the orchestra, especially in #1 (the ending of the first movement really sounds like an avalanche or huge chunks of brass ice breaking off a glacier. But there is also a lot of very fine detail in Sibelius' music and a lot of the musical gestures are very terse and to the point, and that is where Ashkenazy with all the sonic excitement he generates from the orchestra sometimes is not so good. You should also listen to Maazel's WP cycle which has a lot of that kind of excitement (and very massive playing in some pieces, again particularly in the 1st) but more detail and specific athmosphere. It won't hurt you to get to know Berglund's HPO and Sanderling's BSO cycles either, believe me!
Quote from: M forever on September 28, 2008, 11:40:52 AM
A lot of the stuff in the Ashlenazy box is indeed very exciting, thanks to the driven, intense character of the performances and the great contributions of the orchestra, especially in #1 (the ending of the first movement really sounds like an avalanche or huge chunks of brass ice breaking off a glacier. But there is also a lot of very fine detail in Sibelius' music and a lot of the musical gestures are very terse and to the point, and that is where Ashkenazy with all the sonic excitement he generates from the orchestra sometimes is not so good. You should also listen to Maazel's WP cycle which has a lot of that kind of excitement (and very massive playing in some pieces, again particularly in the 1st) but more detail and specific athmosphere. It won't hurt you to get to know Berglund's HPO and Sanderling's BSO cycles either, believe me!
Thank you M, just the kid of feedback I'd hoped for. I will indeed be looking out for Berglund HPO and the Snaderling.
Yes, but "look out" for Maazel's WP cycle first. Be careful though when you listen to the 4th symphony, this version is so bleak and dark, if you are already in a bad mood, it might make you jump out of the window. Other highlights of this cycle are the very massive and exciting 1st and the 3rd (it is good to hear the soaring horn figures at the beginning and in the recapitulation of the first movement played by people who can actually really play them, for a change), and the epic 7th. The highlight of the Berglund/HPO cycle for me is the uniquely athmospheric 6th. But the other symphonies in both boxes are very good, too. Then Sanderling cycle is generally a little low key and analytic, but it is also phenomenally well recorded. You will be surprised by how much detail can actually be captured in a recording, and how "natural" these sound.
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?".)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411nwE8DbcL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Sibelius: Symphony No. 1; Symphony No. 5
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Sir Malcolm Sargent, cond.
EMI
By the by, this CD was something of a bargain bin epiphany pour moi in a much earlier time of my Sibelian experience; it occurred after having been thoroughly discouraged from ever again listening to the Sibelius Symphony No. 5 by the dour and depressing performance heard on the recording by Esa-Pekka Salonen sometime in the late '80s. Whether that would still be the case is questionable, but even today, there's no subverting the fact that these are among the sunniest and most optimistic performances of these two popular symphonies one's ears will likely ever hear. Sargent and the BBCSO come to both sporting yellow-tinged glasses and ineffable grins.
It's almost pointless attempting to differentiate between the two works as performed here. Symphony No. 1 is as bracing as ever with a steadily implacable undercurrent of pulse and forward momentum. There's absolutely no sense of overt affectation other than what seemingly springs forth inevitably from the score -- except, perhaps, for an incredibly relentless helter-skelter conclusion to the Allegro third movement which has the orchestra grasping for ensemble and the listener gasping for breath!
The Symphony No. 5 here also doesn't "take time to smell the roses", mainly because Sargent and the orchestra smell the roses from the get-go in a straightforward reading of the first movement which could probably benefit from some "strategic phrasing" by Sargent to help accentuate the marvelous build to the movement's powerful coda. As performed here, this "power" seems diminished by the lack of contrast with what precedes it, and the strings don't possess the necessary heft to make for a truly visceral crescendo, something I listen for with great anticipation. Another thing is disconcerting, that being the extended silent pauses between tracks of the symphony's movements instead of the more attaca approach which I've become used to. The andante second movement commences in an unusually measured fashion when considering the performance in toto. I must admit, however, that in the grand scheme of the performance, these prove to be quibbles as the symphony is brought home in the same sunny fashion in which it commenced, and indeed, as it was predominantly conducted throughout.
The recording quality from the late '50s displays a modicum of tape hiss and is decidedly bass shy, but with fine midrange presence and not too much tinniness on the top end; no one could possibly mistake this for the very best recording of similar vintage. Still, there's fine presence and "personality" in the winds especially, lending well to these...yes, "uniquely cheery" performances.
(Pasted from "What are You Listening To?")
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FTVZDST8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Sibelius: Symphony No. 4
Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra
Paavo Berglund, cond.
Sibelius: Symphony No. 5
Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Jorma Panula, cond.
FINLANDIA
These recordings originally date from 1968 and are thoroughly inside the idiom. A few months ago, I heard Berglund's most recent commercial recording of the Symphony No. 4 with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (also on the Finlandia label) and commented on how leaden and uninvolving the performance was compared to most others I've heard. Well, this performance with his erstwhile band, the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, presents much the same interpretation, perhaps even darker and more expansive, but with some much needed heft and resonance throughout the timbral spectrum, especially in those growling double-basses and expressive massed strings, which here are unusually subdued and hence even more forbidding. They continue on in painting the bleakest possible sonic landscape throughout the entire opening movement. Even the brief allegro molto vivace second movement hardly offers a respite from the bleakness. It makes Berglund's incredibly forlorn, but impressively well-wrought il tempo largo third movement an extended expression of utter despair. I'm trying to remember if even Karajan, Bernstein, and a few other notables were this cold and dour in their memorable traversals of this landscape. The figurative light breaking through the dark clouds in the beginning of the finale, accented here with softly rung glockenspiel, hardly brings a feeling of redemption. Instead, Berglund offers merely an extended baiting glimpse of hope before foundering in a wave of dissonance. Orchestral balances are impressively unique here in conjuring this effect. The dynamic suddenly shifts to a jarring forte late in the movement, but quickly subsides into a coda suggesting hope was but a taunting zephyr -- the inexorable gloom returns, soon fading, along with all else, on a hushed closing whimper. Now I know what was missing from that COE recording: It makes one believe that this, Sibelius' masterpiece of personal expression, is best heard in large swaths of varying greys as opposed to mere pen & ink, and it's certainly worth the hearing for anyone with an affinity for this symphony. I've not heard Berglund's two other recordings with the Bournemouth and Helsinki orchestras on EMI.
Noted Finnish conducting guru Jorma Panula was music director of the Helsinki Phiharmonic at this time and offers up a unique and musically insightful rendering of the popular Symphony No. 5. The opening clarion horn slowly unfurls and the succeeding winds display a delightfully earthy quality seemingly straight from a Finnish bog -- it's difficult to adequately describe and I'm loathe to think it's merely due to the power of musical suggestion. The opening movement develops most effectively up to the first appearance of the so-called swan hymn, through which the tempo upshifts to a delightful lilt. From there, the build to the movement's coda is superbly realized with just the right amount of tempo and dynamic adjustments to bring maximum effect to the powerful ostinato crescendo, launched abruptly and executed with superb ensemble -- yowza! Following a fine andante second movement, the allegro molto finale is taken at the most relaxed and softly expressive measure I ever remember hearing! The final swan hymn has brass braying with that marvelous earthy quality heard earlier in the winds -- more power of suggestion? I don't think so, this is the real McCoy! The symphony's concluding bursts are tight and terse, bringing an end to this uniquely satisfying performance. My not-always-acute-sense is that this is the kind of performance Esa-Pekka Salonen "meant" to produce for CBS with the Philharmonia, instead of the...well, never mind.
Quote from: Guy RickardsThe Third Symphony, dedicated to [Granville] Bantock, was completed on his return and given its première in Helsinki before September [1907] was out, alongside Pohjola's Daughter and the suite from Belshazzar's Feast. The last two were received more enthusiastically by the audience than the austere, pared-down textures of the symphony, with its oddly elusive atmosphere, restrained mid-nineteenth-century orchestration and telescoped scherzo-and-finale. [Karl] Flodin, though, was delighted, calling the composer 'a Classical master' and the music 'revolutionary, new and truly Sibelian'. Flodin was right — the Third Symphony was indeed a quietly radical work, where all the most extraordinary activity occurred below the surface, unlike in the Second with its grander, romantic mien. Harold Truscott believed it to be the first Sibelius symphony to evince 'complete mastery' and was 'the key to all that followed it', while others like Julian Herbage have commented on its innovative key-scheme, harmonic side-slips and the individuality of the finale. In many ways Symphony № 3 accorded with Busoni's ideal of 'Young Classicality', a return to the musical spirit of the past and not to be confused with the mannered neo-classicism that became the rage amongst composers of the post-World War I years. As such, the Third — the first of the truly great Sibelius symphonies — has been generally misunderstood and did not succeed with audiences or the bulk of critics to anything like the degree of the First or Second. So complete was the incomprehension that greeted the work that its lack of success was at least partially attributed by many to the composer's use of folk elements, whereas in fact this was intentionally the most cosmopolitan and international score Sibelius had yet attempted to compose.
Jean Sibelius, (Phaidon, 1997), pp.91-92
Just finished the Rickards book; excellent little 'handbook' bio. I found it illuminating.
I've been very selective, or very lucky, or both, in my Sibelius exploration. Rickards makes the point that over the course of his career, Janne had to write a fair amount of 'fluff' to raise ready money (the various sums of Sibelius's debt which Rickards mentions from time to time through the course of the composer's life are nothing short of hair-raising), and I have been fortunate never to hear anything by the Mighty Finn answering to the description 'fluff'.
(The Valse triste is light, and a minor work; but it is not fluff!)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 07:19:27 AM
I have been fortunate never to hear anything by the Mighty Finn answering to the description 'fluff'.
There is fluff, and then there is
great fluff. Sibelius composed the latter 8)
Sarge
Quote from: eyeresist on September 03, 2008, 08:07:31 PM
I don't listen to the tone poems much. I don't think any come close to the quality of the symphonies.
Haven't given those pieces enough attention, for whatever reason; hope to rectify that with this disc:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2004/May04/Sibelius_tone_5857852.jpg)
Quote from: Bu on January 11, 2009, 12:29:38 PM
Haven't given those pieces enough attention, for whatever reason; hope to rectify that with this disc:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2004/May04/Sibelius_tone_5857852.jpg)
A nice two-fer, indeed!
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2009, 02:00:07 PM
A nice two-fer, indeed!
True that, Dr. Karl. For a good price, too! :D
I think I'll give it a spin after the Beethoven is done playing.
Quote from: James on January 11, 2009, 05:42:55 AM
(http://rogerbourland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/ISmeetsJS.jpg)
Oh, yes. "ISmeetsJS.jpg" - Who's I.S.?
Prince Igor. Sometimes just called by his last name, "Stravinsky."
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2009, 10:57:49 AMYou can't mean it.
I mean it. I know nothing about I.S. - You know nothing about Haskell programming. This is perfectly allowed.
Not wanting to sound too pedantic, but Burglund's 1st cycle is with the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra, not Birmingham...
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 12, 2009, 08:11:48 PM
I mean it. I know nothing about I.S. - You know nothing about Haskell programming. This is perfectly allowed.
This is a forum about classical music, not about "Haskell programming."
Not knowing who "I.S." is, is
allowed, but it's surprising.
Am I the only one that thinks the 2nd movement of the 1st symphony is so beautiful that nothing compares to it?
Quote from: imperfection on January 13, 2009, 08:01:20 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the 2nd movement of the 1st symphony is so beautiful that nothing compares to it?
Nay, we are two.. :)
I think it's just beautiful.
The fourth movement is nice too, but the first two symphonies aren't my favorite Sibelius.
Sym 1./2nd mvmt. I cannot get warm with it. I'm always thinking of Sinatra "I did it my way..." :(
Quote from: karlhenning on January 13, 2009, 10:50:22 AMNot knowing who "I.S." is, is allowed, but it's surprising.
In the real world (the world I know), knowing who Jean Sibelius is would be surprising. Not to talk about an old man on a b/w jpg picture named "IS..." and looking like Polands General Jaruzelsky.
I once asked at work who Anton Bruckner is. 0 out of 5 knew it. Null, Zero, Nada. High school graders.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 14, 2009, 06:29:56 AM
In the real world (the world I know) . . . .
Sure, but this forum is a specific subset of the real world. Everyone here has heard of
Bruckner.
Come on, Karl. I doubt everybody here who sees the picture http://rogerbourland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/ISmeetsJS.jpg and reads "ISmeetsJS" knows this is Igor Stravinsky. Personally I thought it's the blogger :) Well, now I realized the jpg's metadata hold all information.
QuoteBild-Orientierung: 1
Datum der Aufnahme: 2003:08:27 14:47:08
Bildbeschreibung: PEJE03 19610910 JÄRVENPÄÄ, FINLAND: Russian-born composer Igor Stravinsky lays flowers on Finnish composer Jean Sibelius's grave at Sibelius's home, Ainola, in Järvenpää, Finland, on September 10, 1961. LEHTIKUVA / PERTTI JENYTIN /rl
Benutzte Software: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Erstellt hat das Bild: Pertti Jenytin
I can tell I know nothing about Igor Stravinsky except the names of a few works. I know nothing about 898798 other composers, I know a few things about maybe 50. And there are a lot others than IS to explore first.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on January 14, 2009, 11:53:06 AM
I can tell I know nothing about Igor Stravinsky except the names of a few works. I know nothing about 898798 other composers, I know a few things about maybe 50. And there are a lot others than IS to explore first.
Once you do explore IS, you'll wish you had tried him much earlier.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 17, 2009, 11:12:43 AM
Once you do explore IS, you'll wish you had tried him much earlier.
Indeed! Stravinsky is not just one among 898,798, but one of the very few most prolifically inventive, influential, and masterful composers to grace our world with music. You might start with his century-defining ballet,
The Rite of Spring. Any of Boulez's discs will do, or Solti's powerhouse CSO recording, or you might go with Abbado's bargain twofer featuring all of the famed early ballets. But this is a thread about JS, so enough said on little Igor's account.
Hoy, Dave! :D
Le Sacre du printemps? Yes, one day I'll listen to it :)
An excellent musicweb review (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2009/Feb09/Sibelius_Edition_BIS_I-V.htm) of the five first volumes of the ongoing BIS Sibelius edition.
jlaurson's post below highlighting the many Sibelius cycles out there. I am wondering why the Ashkenazy is more expensive than the Maazel, as it's the Maazel VPO big sound of Sibelius everyone seems to connect to...however, I like the pricing, having many of these sets myself, I would still pay more for Ashkenazys take on Sibelius than Maazels. Like I say, Maazel brings a much bigger orchestral sound to the works, and fine attention to detail, but still for me there is something in Ashkenazys quicker but cooler take - there is more of a 'searing' atmosphere to it's icy urgency.
Having newly discovered this thread and its beguiling title, I'm disappointed to find no mention of The lonely ski trail.
I am really enjoying Sibelius' Symphony No. 7 in C
Is it just me - it reminds me a lot of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie?
Quote from: Dax on February 01, 2009, 11:02:36 PMHaving newly discovered this thread and its beguiling title, I'm disappointed to find no mention of The lonely ski trail.
IIRC (CD not available) it's one track e.g. on the BIS Wood Nymph CD, with a narrator? Oh well, it's a piece I always skipped because of the talking. I don't understand finnish additionally...
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 04:05:02 AM
I am really enjoying Sibelius' Symphony No. 7 in C
Is it just me - it reminds me a lot of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie?
Hmm... I enjoy it, too, and did so in performance a few days ago (Harding, BRSO) when it was coupled with Strauss' "Tod & Verklaerung". But "Alpensinfonie"?? Harding was more earthy (lots of greens and browns) and 'continental' than 'northern lights' and 'pale snow'... , but Aplensinfonie I did not hear.
Just went back to Bernstein's 4th with the NYPhil and found it an astounding (if not necessarily excellent) recording. It never really becomes a symphony... but only individual, chamber-music like, voices that just hint at the possibility of a symphony. Strange and beguiling.
-------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 02, 2009, 05:42:19 AM
Oh well, it's a piece I always skipped because of the talking.
I think there is a similar RVW work that I also cannot enjoy due to this...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nPvjDSA2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I have it in this recording, and the disc is 'interesting', but none of the works are particularly top-flight.
Quote from: Lethe on February 02, 2009, 06:01:09 AM
I think there is a similar RVW work that I also cannot enjoy due to this...
For me it's
Debussy's Chansons de Bilitis.
Thread duty: Really enjoying the
Blomstedt recording of the
Seventh; and it's thanks to
Ben for bringing this to my attention!
As a certifiable Sibelius nut, I have 16 of the 23 cycles shown above, plus a couple of others, as well as individual recordings from all but one of the others. The ones I return to most frequently are Bernstein/NYPO (I've also come to enjoy his very different approach with the WP late in life), Blomstedt/SFS, Vänskä/Lahti, Berglund (all 3!), Maazel/WP, Sakari/Iceland, and Segerstam/HPO. Those I like least and listen to occasionally out of a sense of obligation to give them a fair hearing are: Järvi on BIS (dull as dishwater--I don't have DGG but expect no different), Davis (all 3 bore me), and Ashkenazy/LSO (some things are just plain wrong!). Further comments, should anyone be interested, are plentiful not only here but even more so on the old forum Rob has graciously resurrected.
As for the 7th, I've never considered it similar to Ein Alpensinfonie (not one of my favorite works) but might well give the Strauss a hearing with the comparison in mind. Chambernut, what makes them seem similar to you?
Finally, for those who know little other than the symphonies, the VC, and some of the tone poems, I highly recommend his incidental music for the theatre (especially P&M and The Tempest) and his vocal music for both orchestral and piano accompaniment.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 02, 2009, 06:25:55 AM
As a certifiable Sibelius nut, I have 16 of the 23 cycles shown above, plus a couple of others,
Pray tell, which ones are they?!
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 02, 2009, 06:25:55 AM
As for the 7th, I've never considered it similar to Ein Alpensinfonie (not one of my favorite works) but might well give the Strauss a hearing with the comparison in mind. Chambernut, what makes them seem similar to you?
I don't know David? Please keep in mind, I'm a veritable newbie in the Sibelius arena, and particularly Sibelius 7th! It is the atmosphere and mood of the symphony. Reminded me of a vast northern landscape, and I got to think of Strauss'
Eine Alpensinfonie. Whether I'm in my own little world or not, both works are my favorites respectably for both composers (Symphony No. 2 coming in a close 2nd for Sibelius, and Don Quixote for Strauss). :)
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 06:39:17 AM
Pray tell, which ones are they?!
The complete cycle by Rozhdestvensky and the incomplete cycle by Bernstein on DGG and Karajan on EMI, and I'm a couple short of Maazel's cycle with Pittsburg. Like I said, I'm a nut on JS--the only composer I have more recordings of is Beethoven!
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 06:42:46 AM
I don't know David? Please keep in mind, I'm a veritable newbie in the Sibelius arena, and particularly Sibelius 7th! It is the atmosphere and mood of the symphony. Reminded me of a vast northern landscape, and I got to think of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie. Whether I'm in my own little world or not, both works are my favorites respectably for both composers (Symphony No. 2 coming in a close 2nd for Sibelius, and Don Quixote for Strauss). :)
Well, Donkey Hotey is one of my favorite Strauss pieces, but the second is my least favorite of JS's symphonies (though it's still pretty good). I will give the Strauss a shot later today if I have the time.
updated - Maazel Pittsburgh & Rozhdestvensky addedThanks to DavidRoss for the reminder.
Here's a list of (almost) all available Sibelius Symphony cycles. (Very roughly sorted (top to bottom) acc. to my personal favorites. [Some I have not heard - e.g. Segerstam I, Berglund I & III, Jaervi I, Collins, Saraste...]
"Berglund II", despite being next to 'last', is safely recommendable... I merely added it late.
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box.
Davis III (LSO live), good but overrated, isn't out as a box, either... Davis II I won't include unless I have to. (I.e. to fill the fourth spot in the last row.)I've found the Sixtus Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
What was I thinking when I wrote "Birmingham" instead of "Bournemouth" for Berglund II? Probably "Rattle". :-) Corrected, thanks to
Peregrine
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/2/4/517.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO (Japan only)
Russia Ed. ~$26,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31VG0ZX125L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LXQCbJedL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 04:05:02 AM
I am really enjoying Sibelius' Symphony No. 7 in C
Is it just me - it reminds me a lot of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie?
Its just you.
David, what is just plain wrong about the Ashkenazy/LPO? I've never heard it. Did he do a set with them? Or is that a reference to the Philharmonia? If it is, I'm very interested in what you have to say - why is it plain wrong?
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 08:12:05 AM
updated - Maazel Pittsburgh & Rozhdestvensky added
Thanks to DavidRoss for the reminder.
Here's a list of (almost) all available Sibelius Symphony cycles. (Very roughly sorted (top to bottom) acc. to my personal favorites. [Some I have not heard - e.g. Segerstam I, Berglund I & III, Jaervi I, Collins, Saraste...]
"Berglund II", despite being next to 'last', is safely recommendable... I merely added it late.
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box. Davis III (LSO live), good but overrated, isn't out as a box, either... Davis II I won't include unless I have to. (I.e. to fill the fourth spot in the last row.)
I've found the Sixtus Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
What was I thinking when I wrote "Birmingham" instead of "Bournemouth" for Berglund II? Probably "Rattle". :-) Corrected, thanks to Peregrine
Excellent work! Let me also mention
Finnish Radio SO/Saraste's second (studio) cycle available on Finlandia as 6 individual discs.
The
Oramo/CBSO cycle is available as a set from Erato (got it in the mail yesterday but haven't listened to it yet).
Quote from: mahler10th on February 02, 2009, 08:43:47 AM
David, what is just plain wrong about the Ashkenazy/LPO? I've never heard it. Did he do a set with them? Or is that a reference to the Philharmonia? If it is, I'm very interested in what you have to say - why is it plain wrong?
Not the LPO, the L
SO (London Symphony Orchestra). And it was a mistake on my part (should proof my posts, eh?)! Don't know how "LSO" got in there--still thinking of Colin Davis, perhaps, whose Sibelius (like most of his recordings?) isn't so much bad as chronically overrated, especially by Anglophiles and the British press. The set in question is with the Philharmonia Orchestra.
I know that some respected critics (as well as some posters here whose opinions I often share) praise this set, but to me it's so grossly overdone--romanticized, hopped-up--that it's
garish. Ashkenazy reads him consistent with the mainstream and completely wrong point of view regarding Sibelius as a second-rate Russian Romantic, slogging along garishly in Tchaikovsky's footsteps. I hear Sibelius quite differently. Even in his early career when still influenced by Tchaikovsky and the Viennese and Wagner, I hear the independent proto-Sibelius, a distinctive voice guided by an essentially modern aesthetic. One of the many virtues of Blomstedt's set for me is that he brings out more of JS's unique voice in the early symphonies than one often hears under the baton of conductors trying to fit JS into a conventional late-Romantic mold. (Not that I insist on always hearing a lean and bracing rendering of his music. I rather like Maazel's hot WP set, Bernstein's near-wallowing WP quasi-set, Segerstam's lush HPO set (and what I've heard of his set with the Danes), and Rozhdestvensky's smoking cycle in really bad Russian sound.)
For more discussion of Sibelius's music in general as well as opinions about specific recordings, you might look up relevant threads on the old GMG forum which Rob has graciously restored access to. I recall, for instance, a discussion with Mike S. (M) about Luonnotar that I might revisit out of curiosity to see whether I still feel the same way.
Separately . . . when I first popped this disc into the drive (disc 2 of the Blomstedt set), it was with the intention of listening to Tapiola. My aim nearly turned as I heard the opening measures of the Second Symphony, which I haven't heard in a while, and which sounded invitingly fresh!
Quote from: Wanderer on February 02, 2009, 08:46:21 AM
Excellent work! Let me also mention Finnish Radio SO/Saraste's second (studio) cycle available on Finlandia as 6 individual discs.
The Oramo/CBSO cycle is available as a set from Erato (got it in the mail yesterday but haven't listened to it yet).
Found it. Thanks! And Saraste has TWO cycles?? Which is the one I included? (And which is the other?)
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 10:31:08 AM
Found it. Thanks! And Saraste has TWO cycles?? Which is the one I included? (And which is the other?)
The one you pictured is the live set recorded on tour in St. Petersburg. As I recall it's really quite good, though I've seldom heard it since I've so many others that I usually reach for. Maybe it's time for another go. I know nothing about another Saraste set.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 02, 2009, 10:25:47 AM
Separately . . . when I first popped this disc into the drive (disc 2 of the Blomstedt set), it was with the intention of listening to Tapiola. My aim nearly turned as I heard the opening measures of the Second Symphony, which I haven't heard in a while, and which sounded invitingly fresh!
Worth a listen, Karl, as is his/their fine reading of the Third.
Oh, yes, I do like this entire set, Dave!
I seem to have ended up with no less than twelve of the above complete cycles in my collection, I realise...
And Segerstam, for one, demands my urgent attention!
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 10:31:08 AM
Found it. Thanks! And Saraste has TWO cycles?? Which is the one I included?
You show the second. His first cycle was recorded by RCA and released in the late 80s, early 90s, one symphony to a disc with fillers. I only have two discs from that set (3 and 7). I'm not sure it was ever offered as a box.
Sarge
I had both russian cycles - Rozhdestvensky and Ashkenazy - and I sold both. Both didn't match my "technical" quality needs. The Rozh of course was worse, lot of hiss. Ashkenazy has some Subway rumbling and hiss. And - both were IIRC played pretty fast. Especially some pieces on the Rozh cycle are played really fast. Hastily. I had no reasons to keep it and I avoid collecting things which I'll surely not listen to. So, as for the symphonies and Tapiola, I stick with Blomstedt. Only for the 4th Symphony I tend to switch to Segerstam.
Night ride and Sunrise (a real good one!), Lemminkäinen: Järvi/Gothenburg. On the Symphonies cycle.
Wood Nymph, En Saga: Vänskä/Lahti
Finlandia: Rozhdestvensky/LSO
It looks like the new
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too!:
Symphonies
4 & 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/goodmusicguide-20), Less outrageously expensive in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphony
2 & Tapiola, Swan of T. (UK) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0017OCMNQ/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
1 & 3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P0IB1U/goodmusicguide-20), in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD92/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
6 & 7, UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001B3HDJG/nectarandambrUK-21)
Wurstwasser: "Ashkenazy's Russian cycle????" Which one are you talking about.
Thanks, Sergeant--so the other recordings on Warner/Elatus/Finlandia are all one-and-the-same Saraste cycle?!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to DavidRoss for the reminder. Thanks to Drasko for Wanatabe hint!
Here's a list of (almost) all available Sibelius Symphony cycles. (Very roughly sorted (top to bottom) acc. to my personal favorites. [Some I have not heard - e.g. Segerstam I, Berglund I & III, Jaervi I, Collins, Saraste...]
"Berglund II", despite being next to 'last', is safely recommendable... I merely added it late.
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box.
Davis III (LSO live), good but overrated, isn't out as a box, either... Davis II I won't include unless I have to. (I.e. to fill the fourth spot in the last row.)I've found the Sixtus Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
What was I thinking when I wrote "Birmingham" instead of "Bournemouth" for Berglund II? Probably "Rattle". :-) Corrected, thanks to
Peregrine
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/2/4/517.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO (Japan only)
Russia Ed. ~$26,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31VG0ZX125L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(Europe only) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LXQCbJedL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 11:18:48 AM
Thanks, Sergeant--so the other recordings on Warner/Elatus/Finlandia are all one-and-the-same Saraste cycle?!
I think so...unless he's doing a third cycle :D The one exception I notice is the Toronto Lemminkäinen Suite which isn't the same one that was part of his first cycle (and coupled with the Seventh Symphony). The Toronto recording is a 21st century production.
Sarge
There is another set you can add to your table, Akeo Watanabe on Denon. He actually recorded two cycles, one in the 60s and another, digital, in the 80s. Later one seems in print.
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/25/4/0/725.jpg)
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725
Quote from: Renfield on February 02, 2009, 10:53:02 AM
I seem to have ended up with no less than twelve of the above complete cycles in my collection, I realise...
Yes, this topic is rife with temptation.
Must resist . . . .
Upon further investigation I came upon the Saraste's first cycle (including Kullervo) offered at Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-3-6-7/dp/B000026FWA/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233615797&sr=8-20) on two twofers...well, not exactly twofers now since the used price for the box that includes Kullervo is more than I want to pay right now.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2009, 02:07:58 PM
Upon further investigation I came upon the Saraste's first cycle (including Kullervo) offered at Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-3-6-7/dp/B000026FWA/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233615797&sr=8-20) on two twofers...well, not exactly twofers now since the used price for the box that includes Kullervo is more than I want to pay right now.
Sarge
Where does RCA come in the picture? Ultima was a super-budget (or at least budget)-priced Warner sublabel... so that's the same stuff that's on Elatus/Apex... which is the same stuff that was on Finlandia. No? These even have the Finlandia logo on the cover.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 02, 2009, 10:38:32 AM
The one you pictured is the live set recorded on tour in St. Petersburg.
Exactly (recorded in 1993, if I remember correctly). The one I'm talking about was recorded in 1995 (or so is mentioned in the booklets); the one that Sarge mentions (on Ultima) must be the live recordings.
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 11:18:48 AMWurstwasser: "Ashkenazy's Russian cycle????" Which one are you talking about.
Oh, what I meant was "cycles by russian conductors" :D. Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Ehrling is available on hmv as well. http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/441019
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2009, 03:03:06 PM
Where does RCA come in the picture? Ultima was a super-budget (or at least budget)-priced Warner sublabel... so that's the same stuff that's on Elatus/Apex... which is the same stuff that was on Finlandia. No? These even have the Finlandia logo on the cover.
You're right of course. I was confused about the provenance of Ultima and Elatus/Apex. It appears then that Saraste's RCA cycle is no longer available.
Sarge
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 06:42:46 AM
I don't know David? Please keep in mind, I'm a veritable newbie in the Sibelius arena, and particularly Sibelius 7th! It is the atmosphere and mood of the symphony. Reminded me of a vast northern landscape, and I got to think of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie. Whether I'm in my own little world or not, both works are my favorites respectably for both composers (Symphony No. 2 coming in a close 2nd for Sibelius, and Don Quixote for Strauss). :)
A follow up, ChamberNut:
I listened to Jochum's
Alpensinfonie yesterday (at least the first part--I confess my mind wandered and soon my body followed!) and heard a lot of Wagner and some proto-
Rosenkavalier, but no Sibelius. But if
Alpensinfonie seems like a landscape to you, and the 7th also, then I see why you might regard them as similar.
I'm always delighted when someone discovers Sibelius. To those who know his work, he's a giant, but mainstream opinion still tends to marginalize him. The wheel is turning, however, and the cream eventually rises to the top.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 03, 2009, 06:16:25 AM
A follow up, ChamberNut:
I listened to Jochum's Alpensinfonie yesterday (at least the first part--I confess my mind wandered and soon my body followed!) and heard a lot of Wagner and some proto-Rosenkavalier, but no Sibelius. But if Alpensinfonie seems like a landscape to you, and the 7th also, then I see why you might regard them as similar.
Thanks David.
As Mahler10th indicated....I guess it was just me. ;D
As Dave indicated, Ray: The more of Sibelius's music you get to know, the better you like him.
Trust Me™
Quote from: karlhenning on February 03, 2009, 06:58:38 AM
Trust Me™
Reminds me of:
(http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-01/35037305.jpg)
Has anyone any thoughts on the new Ashkenazy cycle? It's really expensive in the UK and I have no strong feelings either way towards his first cycle so i'm in no rush unless I can be convinced otherwise!
I think we're all waiting for the price to drop.
Quote from: eyeresist on February 05, 2009, 03:42:27 PM
I think we're all waiting for the price to drop.
Damn credit crunch eh! :P
Quote from: Episode VI: Return of the Mog on February 05, 2009, 02:27:28 PM
Has anyone any thoughts on the new Ashkenazy cycle? It's really expensive in the UK and I have no strong feelings either way towards his first cycle so i'm in no rush unless I can be convinced otherwise!
A friend at the local record store really likes them (as he does Exton's Macal Mahler). He convinced a colleague of mine to get one of them (while I got the Mahler 4th). What I heard back was positive, I believe... but I neither trust that colleagues ears all that much, nor did he rave.
I do, however, have strong (positive) feelings toward the first cycle, so I am mildly intrigued. Now: Just where's Exton's contact information?! ;D
Interesting interviews of Berglund, Vänskä, Rattle, Salonen, Davis etc. on Sibelius in 1999:
http://www.fmq.fi/articles/ar_1999_1_vs.html
Quote from: matti on February 06, 2009, 09:48:41 PM
Interesting interviews of Berglund, Vänskä, Rattle, Salonen, Davis etc. on Sibelius in 1999:
http://www.fmq.fi/articles/ar_1999_1_vs.html
It's a pleasure to read that article again. Colin Davis's comments certainly clarify why he's clueless. I like Rattle's comment that
Quote from: Simon Rattle...if it was [sic] possible to concentrate a Wagner opera into ten minutes, then maybe you would come up with the first movements of the Fourth Symphony. Something maybe could connect Sibelius to the third act of Parsifal. But Sibelius is so concentrated and exact. Wagner may be very exact but he is not concentrated," he laughs.
"With Sibelius you feel that if one drop touches your skin it will burn right through to the bone."
Berglund and Vänskä's comments are illuminating, as are their recordings, and reading this again reminds me that it's been awhile since I last heard Berglund's COE 4th, which may be my favorite. Thanks for posting this link, Matti!
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YCTVA7M3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Rondo of the Waves
Sibelius: Aallottaret (The Oceanides, Yale version); Fragments from a Suite for Orchestra / Predecessor of The Oceanides; Cassazione (first version); Musik zu einer Scène; Coronation March; Morceau romantique; Porilaisten marssi; Cortège; Spring Song (1895 version); The Oceanides (Aallottaret, final version)
Lahti Symphony Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, cond
BIS
After having cursorily perused reviews, I was fully expecting this fancifully titled album to consist of more unfinished "works in progress" and lesser sounding "original versions" unearthed by scholars and presented in the BIS label's continuing project to record EVERYTHING Sibelius ever put down -- how miscalculating I was!
Yes, perhaps only The Oceanides is generally familiar to music lovers (the album's title was this work's original working title), but every single track on this CD is a musical gem by any account! Hearing the so-called Yale version of The Oceanides and the two short fragments of a projected suite from which it sprang make one hear this stirring and evocative music anew. While the work's themes may have had their genesis at a previous time, it was actually brought to initial fruition in 1914 via commission the previous year, induced by an American scholar from wealthy American patrons. While Sibelius eventually reworked it, a completed score of this original version ended up in the archives of Yale University and was recently brought to light. (While I'm thinking of it, special props go out to scribe Andrew Barnett, the gist of whose fine album notes can also be found in Chapter 11 of his 2007 book on the composer from Yale Press (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=vkIWs6nvRs8C&dq=Sibelius+Andrew+Barnett&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=yVcrp0dvUr&sig=P4fidxLUHpXxU-ffRc06vZcYeT0&ei=5SaXSfusJZicNcTzmY4M&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1).)
The original versions of Cassazione and Spring Song are especially alluring, while the two brief marches add an enlivening rhythmic jolt to a program that's wonderfully varied. Nine of the ten works presented on the CD represent world premiere recordings, making it definitely of interest to hardcore Sibelians. What I'm so bold to suggest, however, is that this music is so compellingly performed and recorded as to be a thorough delight for even the Sibelian novice or the aforementioned general music lover. Appropriately, the program ends with a hauntingly expansive performance of The Oceanides...the final version.
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
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Sibelius: Karelia Suite; The Oceanides; Finlandia; Valse Triste; Tapiola; Night Ride and Sunrise
London Symphony Orchestra
Sir Colin Davis, cond.
RCA
Outside of the gorgeously recorded orchestral sound (RCA and the LSO seem to strike a chord with me, ever since Previn's Vaughan Williams cycle), this is Sibelius from a relaxing spa (or as has been suggested, a geriatric ward) -- perhaps only ephemerally and superficially evocative of rugged landscapes, savage myths, but not the least of "cool, clear water". Davis and the LSO make "beautiful music" of these incredible Sibelian inventions in performances stripped of spontaneity and milked for all the lushness and warmth of sonority that can possibly be mustered. I'm not altogether convinced these performances even work as drama, especially for the novice listener. However, one can certainly bask in the pure sound of it all.
Quote from: moldyoldie on February 20, 2009, 07:13:55 AM
Outside of the gorgeously recorded orchestral sound (RCA and the LSO seem to strike a chord with me, ever since Previn's Vaughan Williams cycle), this is Sibelius from a relaxing spa (or as has been suggested, a geriatric ward) -- perhaps only ephemerally and superficially evocative of rugged landscapes, savage myths, but not the least of "cool, clear water". Davis and the LSO make "beautiful music" of these incredible Sibelian inventions in performances stripped of spontaneity and milked for all the lushness and warmth of sonority that can possibly be mustered. I'm not altogether convinced these performances even work as drama, especially for the novice listener. However, one can certainly bask in the pure sound of it all.
I've not heard this particular disc of symphonic poems, but I have some of the symphony recordings they made and your assessment tallies with my impressions. See? We can agree sometimes!
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 20, 2009, 07:26:01 AMSee? We can agree sometimes!
Well, by my tally, we've agreed once and disagreed once -- I'd like to see a larger sampling. :P ;)
FWIW, I've mostly enjoyed what I've heard of Davis' Sibelius symphony cycle on LSO Live -- especially the
Seventh! I'm so bold as to say it's the most stirring and moving interpretation and performance I've
ever heard.
Beware the
Fifth, however -- it's "Hum Along with Sir Colin". ::)
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 22, 2009, 05:58:01 AM
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.
Ah, so you like it shaken, not stirred.
Here's another mutual disagreement, abetted by my pasted comments from a few months ago:
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 6; Symphony No. 4
Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Paavo Berglund, cond.
FINLANDIAHearing these two symphonies played by a chamber-sized orchestra conducted by no less a Sibelian authority than Paavo Berglund sounded like an interesting proposition, seeing that the
Sixth is my (current) personal favorite of The Sibelian Seven (for reasons not entirely quantifiable) and that I've yet to hear a recording of the
Fourth that I didn't find at least...intriguing. The used CD was also priced very reasonably, quite unlike other individual disks in Berglund's last recorded cycle.
Textures are crystal clear as the orchestra is not only lean, but play with very fine ensemble and intonation. Miking puts the listener right on the podium with a very broad, yet intimate soundstage, all recorded in vaunted 24-bit digital. I'm certain if one puts their mind to it, they could delineate every single note and individual sonority.
Now, let me get this out and over with -- these must be
the most leaden and uninvolving interpretations of these two great symphonies I've ever heard! There. Sure, I'm hearing things I've not heard before, but to what end overall? At least the short interview of Berglund in the booklet was interesting.
FWIW, I also have Berglund's late '60s recording of the
Fourth with the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, but it's been a few years since I've heard it; maybe it's time to dig it out. At best, the present CD will hereafter be considered a very, very remote alternative.
[Back to the present] I did go back and listen to Berglund's Fourth on this recording; it's one of my absolute favorites. The interpretation is similar, but I believe the size of the band makes a salient difference. Again, my comments are pasted from a past posting:
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 4
Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra
Paavo Berglund, cond.
Sibelius: Symphony No. 5
Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Jorma Panula, cond.
FINLANDIAThese recordings originally date from 1968 and are thoroughly inside the idiom. A few months ago, I heard Berglund's most recent commercial recording of the
Symphony No. 4 with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (also on the Finlandia label) and commented on how leaden and uninvolving the performance was compared to most others I've heard. Well, this performance with his erstwhile band, the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, presents much the same interpretation, perhaps even darker and more expansive, but with some much needed heft and resonance throughout the timbral spectrum, especially in those growling double-basses and expressive massed strings, which here are unusually subdued and hence even more forbidding. They continue on in painting the bleakest possible sonic landscape throughout the entire opening movement. Even the brief
allegro molto vivace second movement hardly offers a respite from the bleakness. It makes Berglund's incredibly forlorn, but impressively well-wrought
il tempo largo third movement an extended expression of utter despair. I'm trying to remember if even Karajan, Bernstein, and a few other notables were this cold and dour in their memorable traversals of this landscape. The figurative light breaking through the dark clouds in the beginning of the finale, accented here with softly rung glockenspiel, hardly brings a feeling of redemption. Instead, Berglund offers merely an extended baiting glimpse of hope before foundering in a wave of dissonance. Orchestral balances are impressively unique here in conjuring this effect. The dynamic suddenly shifts to a jarring forte late in the movement, but quickly subsides into a coda suggesting hope was but a taunting zephyr -- the inexorable gloom returns, soon fading, along with all else, on a hushed closing whimper. Now I know what was missing from that COE recording: It makes one believe that this, Sibelius' masterpiece of personal expression, is best heard in large swaths of varying greys as opposed to mere pen & ink, and it's certainly worth the hearing for anyone with an affinity for this symphony. I've not heard Berglund's two other recordings with the Bournemouth and Helsinki orchestras on EMI.
Noted Finnish conducting guru Jorma Panula was music director of the Helsinki Phiharmonic at this time and offers up a unique and musically insightful rendering of the popular
Symphony No. 5. The opening clarion horn slowly unfurls and the succeeding winds display a delightfully earthy quality seemingly straight from a Finnish bog -- it's difficult to adequately describe and I'm loathe to think it's merely due to the power of musical suggestion. The opening movement develops most effectively up to the first appearance of the so-called swan hymn, through which the tempo upshifts to a delightful lilt. From there, the build to the movement's coda is superbly realized with just the right amount of tempo and dynamic adjustments to bring maximum effect to the powerful ostinato crescendo, launched abruptly and executed with superb ensemble -- yowza! Following a fine andante second movement, the
allegro molto finale is taken at the most relaxed and softly expressive measure I ever remember hearing! The final swan hymn has brass braying with that marvelous earthy quality heard earlier in the winds -- more power of suggestion? I don't think so, this is the real McCoy! The symphony's concluding bursts are tight and terse, bringing an end to this uniquely satisfying performance. My not-always-acute-sense is that this is the kind of performance Esa-Pekka Salonen "meant" to produce for CBS with the Philharmonia, instead of the...well, never mind.
Quote from: moldyoldie on February 22, 2009, 06:06:20 AM
Here's another mutual disagreement....
Yep--that's one of my faves. I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated. Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato). ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 22, 2009, 05:58:01 AM
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.
::) ::) ::)
;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 22, 2009, 07:30:23 AM
Yep--that's one of my faves. I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated. Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato). ;)
Perhaps Boulez will tackle Sibelius at some point. He recently did some Janacek (Glagolitic Mass at last years BBC Proms), which is a bit off his beaten track, though it wasn't very memorable IMO.
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?)
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 2; Pohjola's Daughter
London Symphony Orchestra
Sir Colin Davis, cond.
LSO LIVE
Colin Davis' conception here of the popular Sibelius Symphony No. 2 (I've not heard any of his other recordings of No. 2, but have read his approach hasn't changed much over the years) is hardly heroic in the grand sense; it's more one of brooding rumination as heard in consistently broad, heavy-handed phrasing and a minimum of overt dynamic variation -- it's also mostly a crushing bore. I've put myself at the mercy of this three times and hear less and less of what I would deem to be "inspiration". The orchestra still plays very well, the all-important transitions and climaxes are handled with subtle and consummate skill, but Davis is loathe to whip up any fire and froth to suggest a composer in the throes of Romantic fervor (Bernstein, Barbirolli, and Karajan in equally expansive renderings), nor does he offer up much of an intellectually interesting interpretation (Vänskä, in a cool and similarly sober vein, and also perhaps Segerstam, who also reins in the emotion) -- forget about tuneful, invigorating, or merely entertaining (Ormandy, Szell, Berglund, and even Levine). For the experienced listener, hearing this Second is akin to having one foot in the barren Sibelian landscape of his Fourth Symphony; I leave it to that listener to determine if it's worth exploring as this one is hesitant to return -- the novice should probably stay clear.
The program starts off, however, with a very expressive performance of Pohjola's Daughter, replete with more mournful portamento from the solo cellist than I've ever heard in the piece. Here Davis allows the optimism to emerge with finely judged phrasing, dynamic bursts and crescendi. The piece affectingly winds down and ends with the quietest strings imaginable, perhaps partly a function of a recording which is wide in dynamic range, but noticeably shy of resonance and bass presence.
Speaking of which, I've read many complaints about the exceedingly dry acoustic of the Barbican venue heard on this series of releases from the LSO Live label. It's never been a big problem with me as it seems oddly suited to the Sibelian repertoire and particularly to Colin Davis' mostly intimate and cerebral take on it.
moldyoldie
Your Sibelius reviews make very interesting reading, and arm us with a very considered viewpoint for our own listening. Thanks.
Just in from the Associated Press:
"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".
Good job.
Quote from: donwyn on February 28, 2009, 03:03:40 PM
Just in from the Associated Press:
"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".
Good job.
No doubt we are to expect an immediate
freeze in wiretapping?
(http://www.origo.hu/i/0708/20070822batmanmrf.jpg)
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?"]
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 2; Romance in C
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra
Neeme Järvi, cond.
BIS
Here's a performance of the Sibelius Symphony No. 2 in the same vein as Berglund's Helsinki recording, also from the mid-'80s -- mostly direct and straightforward, and based on my now extensive listening experience, often seemingly bordering on the impetuous. The allegretto first movement flies by with nary a ponderous moment, but with a great deal of sparkle, vim and vigor. The alacrity makes for a most effective transition to the dramatically downshifted andante second movement; here's where Järvi and company make for some very effective phrasing marked by powerful dynamic variance and providing a most expressive rubato which Sibelius asks for in his labeling of the movement -- very nicely done! The vivacissimo third movement bursts out of the starting gate at full throttle with ensemble barely held together by the strings. There's a very pregnant pause before the beautifully pensive interlude from the winds, then the horserace recommences till the dramatically downshifted winds again sing their song. The difficult extended crescendo building into the finale is marvelously rendered here, held together very nicely. I've heard some fairly ragged ensemble playing in this all-important section, but certainly not here! The finale itself is exemplary of how I most like to hear it -- unbridled in the forte sections with pointed adherence to the big tune, while momentarily contemplative in the contrasting quieter sections. (For those with an interest in orchestral nuance, I'm hearing the tuba here as emphatically as I ever have in this movement.) Again, the coda builds very dramatically and the symphony is brought home in stirring fashion -- indeed, inspiration seemingly exudes from every pore of this performance. All told, and not to sound brash, but here's your antidote to the likes of Colin Davis...if one feels the need.
This is the first I'm hearing the Romance in C for string orchestra, labeled Op. 42 and first performed in 1904 (Symphony No. 2 is Op. 43 from 1901). It's a very short five-and-a-half minute mini-drama of sorts in the Sibelian style most reminiscent of Tchaikovsky. It's pleasant enough and probably holds some interest as Sibelian arcana, but makes for an insubstantial and anticlimactic conclusion to a CD program of only about 47 minutes -- that's how they often did it in the early days of digital, folks.
As an aside, it's amusing how BIS would print a large red warning on the front directing us to see the back cover with the following: "WARNING! Contrary to established practice this recording retains the staggering dynamics of the ORIGINAL performance. This may damage your loudspeakers, but given first-rate playback equipment you are guaranteed a truly remarkable musical and audio experience. Good luck!" Yes, it's a fine recording -- spaciously vivid and weighted toward the highs with only slight hints of congestion on fortissimos -- but know that the early digital sound has since been generally eclipsed. If your loudspeakers are still intact, your "good luck" will be in hearing this stimulating performance of the Sibelius Second.
(p.s. Thank you for the comment on the previous page, John. :) The pleasure's mine.)
Quote from: donwyn on February 28, 2009, 03:03:40 PM
Just in from the Associated Press:
"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".
I just hope they've vetted her for alcohol problems. Also, I fear she may spend the next 8 years working on a major policy statement, and then burn it at the last minute.
I've been interested in hearing Sibelius's piano music for some time now, but have been wary to take the plunge on a set. Any comments on the pieces? Are they all "potboilers" or are some of real substance? Standouts?
I'm considering this set:
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Do you like Grieg's solo piano music? There are comparisons which can be made between the two composers. Their piano music can be "nice", but to anybody with high standards a complete set would be OTT. In addition, I find that Sibelius' piano music doesn't have the highlights of Grieg's either.
This isn't to say that the Sibelius isn't fine throughout - and with some appealing miniatures - but it's simply not excellent. Some people seem unhappy owning even slightly weaker music, let alone paying for it. Perhaps check out one of the Naxos CDs before buying a set (I can send some samples if you like).
Yeah, in brief, some of the piano music is reasonably good, but it wasn't an instrument he had much affinity for and his piano music was meant for home entertainment, not ART. Better are his songs, especially later ones.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 25, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
his piano music was meant for home entertainment, not ART.
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs?
I'm a snob, I can't help it.Quote from: DavidRoss on March 25, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
Better are his songs, especially later ones.
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
Quote from: Corey on March 25, 2009, 08:05:22 PM
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
You should check out the first post on this thread. 0:)
Quote from: Corey on March 25, 2009, 08:05:22 PM
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs? I'm a snob, I can't help it.
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
Just get this disc:
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We'll talk about orchestral songs later
Quote from: Corey on March 25, 2009, 08:05:22 PM
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs?
That's not being a
snob, that's managing one's time and attention.
Corey--If you follow this link (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg6987.html#msg6987) to the first page of this thread, you'll see Donwyn's recommendations for discs of orchestral songs, which I heartily endorse. The Isokoski/Segerstam/HPO sonic spectacular on Ondine may not have my favorite renditions of certain favorite songs, but it's pretty darned good all around and received rave reviews when released. BBC Music Magazine even named it their Disc of the Year. My capsule review of it on the old forum is here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,43.msg292579.html#msg292579), followed by some discussion with Michael S. (M) about it and the then newly-reissued Blomstedt/SFS cycle. Somewhere else around there is a discussion with Michael about the merits of various recordings of Luonnotar which you might find of interest.
I'm glad you've expressed an interest in Sibelius's songs. Some of the Sibelius fans around here have been advocating his vocal music for a long time. The Isokoski record and the Karneus disc recommended above should give you a good idea why. Most of the songs, like his piano music, were written not as ART--that he reserved for the symphonies and tone poems, and a few other bits and pieces like the Voces Intimae quartet--but rather to meet the market demand for music for amateurs to perform at home (real chamber music) in the days before TV and radio and the internet created a pop culture of musical illiterates.
I'm not a big fan of the piano music either. Why then, didn't Sibelius write more music for violin since that's an instrument he clearly was fond of? Not to mention bloody good with it! I'm sure I read his Violin Concerto was the most performed concerto for any instrument, or at least most performed 20th century concerto.
Quote from: Benji on March 26, 2009, 09:20:57 AM
I'm not a big fan of the piano music either. Why then, didn't Sibelius write more music for violin since that's an instrument he clearly was fond of? Not to mention bloody good with it! I'm sure I read his Violin Concerto was the most performed concerto for any instrument, or at least most performed 20th century concerto.
Probably didn't sell as well...and he was always in need of money.
No doubt you're familiar with this?
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[Updated for timeliness and extended remarks on 3/27/09, pasted from "What Are You Listening To?"]
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 5; Symphony No. 6
London Symphony Orchestra
Sir Colin Davis, cond.
LSO LIVE
With the semi-chaos that's become of the recording industry, and as do a few prominent orchestras nowadays, the London Symphony Orchestra is producing and distributing live recordings on their own label. This is the first installment of what has become Sir Colin Davis' third complete recorded cycle of Sibelius' symphonies, the last two with the LSO.
Unfortunately, for much of the popular Symphony No. 5 it's "Hum Along with Sir Colin". Though it's become something of a given throughout Davis' vast discography, I've never heard his humming as disconcertingly conspicuous as here! One might be able to overlook it in the face of an overwhelmingly convincing performance, but the truth is that Davis doesn't necessarily convey a special affinity for this stirring and monumental score. The performance is certainly enjoyable enough -- tuneful, mostly fleet of pace, powerful when need be, and confidently played with an evident savvy emanating from the podium -- but it's hardly as gripping, penetrating, and memorable as those of Bernstein and Karajan, who in my estimation still reign supreme in this work, even when compared to the recent spate of fine native Finnish and Scandinavian performances on CD.
The performance of Symphony No. 6 here, however, has become one of my personal favorites. This knotty score is seemingly the bane of many Sibelian interpreters, but Davis and the LSO winningly render an optimistic reading from beginning to end. The delightfully disarming poco vivace third movement, a favorite Sibelian concoction of this listener, is especially fetching here. An effective performance of this symphony seemingly hinges on artful tempo relations and the all-important dynamic balance between strings and winds; here it's well-nigh perfect -- and Davis' humming is mercifully held in check!
Overall, I do love the performances on this CD. The acoustic of the Barbican live performance recording venue is decidedly dry, but it complements Davis' mostly cerebral take on these two symphonies. If one can manage to inure themself to the conductor's "verbal accompaniment" in No. 5, these are most enjoyable.
I avoid buying CDs with Mr. Davis because of his humming. He's annoying.
Quote from: moldyoldie on March 27, 2009, 03:29:29 PM
Unfortunately, for much of the popular Symphony No. 5 it's "Hum Along with Sir Colin". Though it's become something of a given throughout Davis' vast discography, I've never heard his humming as disconcertingly conspicuous as here!
Maybe the recording engineers assigned him his own microphone for this one?
Quote from: Wanderer on March 30, 2009, 12:36:18 AMMaybe the recording engineers assigned him his own microphone for this one?
They should put him into a glass box.
Recently listened to Pohjola's Daughter, Jarvi's recent recording on DG. A piece which vaguely follows a program involving the North god, but which is wonderfully evocative in a purely musical sense. Superb!
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?]
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Sibelius: Symphony No. 4; Symphony No. 5
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
James Levine, cond.
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON
Under Levine's direction, Sibelius's dark and morose Fourth Symphony begins powerfully and weighty, more akin to Maazel/VPO than Karajan/BPO, the latter whose opening double-basses arise from silence with a more soft-spoken sullenness. Levine traverses the four-movement landscape with a fine feel for where the music needs to go and how to get there; one is hardpressed to notice a musical misstep at any point -- and the orchestra does play splendidly! However, Karajan's Sibelius Fourth (BPO/'78 on EMI) is certainly more characterful and overtly dramatic, putting forth one of the most convincing arguments of this great symphony's gravitas and import. The intensity of Karajan's Il tempo largo is well-nigh unmatched, in my opinion. Still, all told, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest Levine's performance as an introduction to the Fourth for the novice listener. Seasoned listeners, too, should appreciate Levine's sheer grasp of this great and mysterious music, rendered in up-close and incredibly vivid recorded sound.
Levine effects the popular Symphony No. 5 in a full-bore forward manner much as he did in his overall ill-measured reading of No. 2 with the same forces. However, the first movement here is taken much too fast for effectiveness in the climaxes. The usually deliberately demarcated long crescendo building to the opening movement's powerful conclusion (the highlight of the entire symphony for this listener!) lacks meaningful contrast with what precedes it; its intrinsic dramatic impact is effectively fleeced. (sigh!) The andante second movement, also taken at a brisk pace, is also devoid of meaningful contrast. The buzzing violins which commence the opening of the third movement sound here as if tiny killer bees are swarming an intruder to the hive -- would it be a redundancy to describe it as hyperactive prestissimo? This leads to the first sounding of the big theme which is seemingly too fast by half, as indeed are its succeeding reiterations -- the transcendental sense of nature's power and grandeur is thus diminished. Are we noticing a pattern here? While I've always admired and often appreciated Levine's "no fear" headlong approach to conducting many of the thorniest Late Romantic and 20th Century warhorses, what he does here to the Sibelius Fifth borders on the unconscionable -- an interpretation seemingly borne of a misunderstanding of what makes this a symphony for the ages for all who love it, alas! All that being said, the performance is coherent, consistent, and mostly enjoyable. DG's fantastic digital rendering of a great orchestra is also a consolation here.
Update: How about voting on favorite Versions of individual Symphonies, which I'll include here, too??It looks like the new
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too!:
Symphonies
4 & 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/goodmusicguide-20), Less outrageously expensive in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphony
2 & Tapiola, Swan of T. (UK) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0017OCMNQ/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
1 & 3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P0IB1U/goodmusicguide-20), in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD92/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
6 & 7, UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001B3HDJG/nectarandambrUK-21)
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Thanks to DavidRoss for the reminder. Thanks to Drasko for Wanatabe hint!
Here's a list of (almost) all available Sibelius Symphony cycles. (Very roughly sorted (top to bottom) acc. to my personal favorites. [Some I have not heard - e.g. Segerstam I, Berglund I & III, Jaervi I, Collins, Saraste...]
"Berglund II", despite being next to 'last', is safely recommendable... I merely added it late.
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box.
Davis III (LSO live), good but overrated, isn't out as a box, either... Davis II I won't include unless I have to. (I.e. to fill the fourth spot in the last row.)I've found the Sixtus Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Thanks to Wurstwasser who also found the Ehling cycle on HMV (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/441019).
I'll include it once I find three more cycles to complete a row.
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
What was I thinking when I wrote "Birmingham" instead of "Bournemouth" for Berglund II? Probably "Rattle". :-) Corrected, thanks to
Peregrine
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/2/4/517.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO (Japan only)
Russia Ed. ~$26,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31VG0ZX125L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(Europe only) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LXQCbJedL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
I heard Sibelius Piano Quintet on XM yesterday and would love to get a recording of it. Any recommendations?
Quote from: mark4mich on May 08, 2009, 06:31:12 AM
I heard Sibelius Piano Quintet on XM yesterday and would love to get a recording of it. Any recommendations?
Not like there's a LOT of choice (three recordings that I know of, two of which I have).
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/168202.jpg)
I prefer the new BIS recording
by a slight margin over the
Chandos and, if memory serves
me right, the Pihtipudas Quintet,
too. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OQF6OK/nectarandambr-20)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on March 29, 2009, 07:52:56 PM
I avoid buying CDs with Mr. Davis because of his humming. He's annoying.
Forget the humming. Davis is one of the finest Sibelius interpreters out there.
Quote from: John on May 08, 2009, 07:51:54 AM
Forget the humming. Davis is one of the finest Sibelius interpreters out there.
Forget the humming, indeed. But I have come to think of Davis as one of the finest Sibelius
misinterpreters out there.
And I say that not just for being coy: I think his Boston recordings sound terrific, as does a Dresden Staatskapelle 2nd I have. But I think he shoots right by the core of Sibelius. Too empathetic, to grandiose. Quotes like these don't help rectify that aural view:
QuoteI look in the mirror and see the ruthlessness of life, and nevertheless find the strength to go on with it. Sibelius was happy in a crowd and depressed when he was alone. I'm like that, too.
QuoteThe second movement [of the 4th Symphony] begins gaily enough, but then something bewildering and horrible happens. To me, the last pages of the score describe Death, with no false consolations. It's like a sleigh that has run off the road. Sibelius' loved ones lie around it, dead, and he feels he has let them down.
QuoteThat is Sibelius, smoothing over the graves of his loved ones with his bare hands.
QuoteThere, you have an agonized Sibelius riding through the night because he cannot sleep. Along the way, he sees goblins and ghosts and breaks out in a cold sweat. And then the sun comes up. The nightmare is over, at least for a while. (On "Night Ride & Sunrise")
Be that as it may, his are my favorite misinterpretations, next to a select few recordings of Barbirolli, Bernstein, and Celibidache.
Well, I would like to listen to select Davis / Sibelius again to argue my point...but alas, I'm in Collection rebuild mode :( , and it'll be a while before I get round to it. But when it comes to Sibelius, all points are worth considering, and I'll bear it in mind when I do get round to it. :)
TTT (puzzled that it drifted to page, I dunno, 5 or 6 . . . .)
I will be flying to Finland this September to attend the annual Sibelius Festival at Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland. On the menu are works of the composer's middle period, including the 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies. There will also be tone poems, orchestral songs and chamber music the last day of the festival.
Of course, it will be the Sinfonia Lahti playing the music under their (out-going) music director Jukka Pekka Saraste.
I can't wait to be bombarded by Sibelius in his home country...
Wow, that sounds like great fun! PS, we have a number of people from Finland here, who can give you advice on your trip, I'm sure. :D
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on July 21, 2009, 11:13:53 AM
Wow, that sounds like great fun! PS, we have a number of people from Finland here, who can give you advice on your trip, I'm sure. :D
--Bruce
I'm 30 and I've had an on-going interest in Finland for about half my life, yet this will be my first trip there. I leave Sept. 7th...it can't come soon enough.
I wonder if any of the resident Finns have done the festival before...
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 21, 2009, 10:56:51 AM
I will be flying to Finland this September to attend the annual Sibelius Festival at Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland. On the menu are works of the composer's middle period, including the 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies. There will also be tone poems, orchestral songs and chamber music the last day of the festival.
Now that sounds exciting! How many days does the festival last, Erik?
Quote from: Elgarian on July 21, 2009, 12:04:13 PM
Now that sounds exciting! How many days does the festival last, Erik?
It is three evenings (Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and one morning (Sunday) of chamber works. Here are the details:
http://www.sinfonialahti.fi/sibelius/en_GB/sibelius
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 21, 2009, 12:10:16 PM
It is three evenings (Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and one morning (Sunday) of chamber works. Here are the details:
http://www.sinfonialahti.fi/sibelius/en_GB/sibelius
Looks like a double dose on Saturday - lunchtime piano recital in addition to the evening's orchestral frolics.
Well, it looks terrific. Really stunning thing to do.
I have the cycle with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Royal Stockholm Orchestra it is on warner and the recordings are from 1952/53. It is my favourite cycle - the one I listen to most.
Favourite individual performances.
1 Kajanus
2 Beecham on BBC Legends or Biddulph
3 Okko Kamu (DGG)/Kajanus
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own)
5 Sargent BBC SO
6 Anthony Collins
7 Beecham/Koussevitsky
Tapiola: Mazel/Segerstam
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2009, 02:25:18 PM
I have the cycle with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Royal Stockholm Orchestra it is on warner and the recordings are from 1952/53. It is my favourite cycle - the one I listen to most.
Favourite individual performances.
1 Kajanus
2 Beecham on BBC Legends or Biddulph
3 Okko Kamu (DGG)/Kajanus
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own)
5 Sargent BBC SO
6 Anthony Collins
7 Beecham/Koussevitsky
Tapiola: Mazel/Segerstam
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO
Those are interesting and, for the most part, somewhat obscure choices. And when I say obscure, I mean not many people even now about them or go on to list them as favorites for that matter.
Kajanus conducted a great performance of Pohjola's Daughter in the 1930s that I have on disc. It is very intense, and the power of the performance makes up for the rather scratcy mono sound.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2009, 02:25:18 PM
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own)
Interesting list you got there! Does this Beecham Dutton performance exist on CD? I only found symphonies 2, 6, and 7 by Beecham available on Dutton. I found no. 4 as part of The Beecham Collection on Somm. Do you know if this is the same performance as the Dutton?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QRctFBOsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QRctFBOsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 21, 2009, 10:56:51 AM
I will be flying to Finland this September to attend the annual Sibelius Festival at Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland. On the menu are works of the composer's middle period, including the 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies. There will also be tone poems, orchestral songs and chamber music the last day of the festival.
Of course, it will be the Sinfonia Lahti playing the music under their (out-going) music director Jukka Pekka Saraste.
I can't wait to be bombarded by Sibelius in his home country...
http://www.sinfonialahti.fi/sibelius/en_GB/concerts/ (http://www.sinfonialahti.fi/sibelius/en_GB/concerts/) Sounds terrific--wish I were joining you. Nice that opening night includes
Luonnotar and other songs performed by Helena Juntunen. I've never heard
Luonnotar live but that alone is enough to make me consider attending! And note that there's yet another Henning involved: Henning Kraggerud, the fiddler who'll be playing the VC!
Vandermolen's Favorites as available (or not) on Amazon:(Correct me where I linked to the wrong version.)Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2009, 02:25:18 PM
I have the cycle with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Royal Stockholm Orchestra it is on warner and the recordings are from 1952/53. It is my favourite cycle - the one I listen to most.
Favourite individual performances.
1 Kajanus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000006KIO/goodmusicguide-20) (OOP)
2 Beecham on BBC Legends (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002NY8EY/goodmusicguide-20) or Biddulph (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007N8Y/goodmusicguide-20)
3 Okko Kamu (DGG) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRU/nectarandambrUK-21)/Kajanus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001SF6/goodmusicguide-20) (OOP)
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SMMZ/goodmusicguide-20) (same as on KOCH?)
5 Sargent BBC SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008ETYV/goodmusicguide-20)
6 Anthony Collins (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20)
7 Beecham (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013FSVDE/goodmusicguide-20)/Koussevitsky (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001AGOLS/nectarandambrUK-21)
Tapiola: Mazel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TTX3/goodmusicguide-20)/Segerstam (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIXX/goodmusicguide-20)
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VT6P7M/goodmusicguide-20)
[couldn't find that anywhere -- but rubio did.]
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2009, 04:22:46 AM
Vandermolen's Favorites as available (or not) on Amazon:[/size
Or you could just buy a cycle by Vänskä, Bernstein, Blomstedt, Segerstam, or Berglund and have even better performances of them all. ;)
Pssst. The Kajanus recordings were available as torrents, last I looked.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 04:44:12 AM
Or you could just buy a cycle by Vänskä, Bernstein, Blomstedt, Segerstam, or Berglund and have even better performances of them all. ;)
(* sips hot tea *)
Erik and I had some conversation on another forum about symphony cycles. I'd had the Naxos Icelandic set for some years, which seemed adequate if not brilliant. But then I bought the RCA Colin Davis LSO set (not LSO Live) because it was incredibly cheap, and because the Penguin Guide heaped accolades upon its accolades. But I lost interest in it when I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies in that set over-glossy, smooth, and grindingly slow - to an extent that made the Naxos Icelanders sound significantly more enthusiastic, interestingly lively, and more suitably raw.
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2009, 04:22:46 AM
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO [can't find that anywhere]
It's all about searching skills :).
http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-VLN-Minor-Orch-Works/dp/B000VT6P7M/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2W6E3919YSPR5&colid=1L61W0MN46OUE
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/46/ea/611ec060ada0e010dbe39110.L._AA240_.jpg)
rubio, that's one for the bad cover art thread!
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 06:36:30 AM
Erik and I had some conversation on another forum about symphony cycles. I'd had the Naxos Icelandic set for some years, which seemed adequate if not brilliant. But then I bought the RCA Colin Davis LSO set (not LSO Live) because it was incredibly cheap, and because the Penguin Guide heaped accolades upon its accolades. But I lost interest in it when I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies in that set over-glossy, smooth, and grindingly slow - to an extent that made the Naxos Icelanders sound significantly more enthusiastic, interestingly lively, and more suitably raw.
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
I think most critics have tended to agree that the LSO/RCA Davis set stinks. On the last page, Jens Laurson said he'd only list it if he had to, Victor Carr writes as follows on ClassicsToday:
QuoteColin Davis' RCA Sibelius cycle must be ranked among the most unnecessary recording projects of all time. Having already recorded a universally lauded set of Sibelius symphonies and tone poems with the Boston Symphony for Philips, Davis' new undertaking constitutes a sad dilution of his previous success, with its lackluster Symphony No. 2, bland Nos. 3 & 6, and lifeless No. 5. The conductor does replicate his earlier achievements in Nos. 1 & 7, and to a lesser degree in No. 4. However, the London Symphony for the most part doesn't meet the challenge of its Boston competition--certainly not in the shocking ensemble lapses that disfigure parts of the drably rendered Lemminkäinen Suite and Fifth Symphony, which, along with the deadly dull Kullervo form the artistic nadir of the set. The remaining tone poems (with the exception of a confused Pohjola's Daughter) proceed well enough, but some, such as Finlandia, En Saga, and The Oceanides, have been done better by the likes of Järvi, Berglund, Bernstein, and of course, Davis himself. RCA's engineering is of variable quality, with some strangely murky sonics afflicting the Lemminkäinen and Kullervo. Considering that Davis' earlier cycle is available on two Philips Duos, this new one, even with its low price and extra items, is no bargain.
and David Hurwitz says things like, "Their previous cycle for RCA was very spotty indeed, slackly played and not at all well recorded, particularly in the Third Symphony, and this remake [LSO Live] makes handsome amends for what otherwise would have remained a blot on the career of one of our great Sibelius conductors and on an orchestra with as rich a tradition in this music as any."
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 06:36:30 AM
Erik and I had some conversation on another forum about symphony cycles. I'd had the Naxos Icelandic set for some years, which seemed adequate if not brilliant. But then I bought the RCA Colin Davis LSO set (not LSO Live) because it was incredibly cheap, and because the Penguin Guide heaped accolades upon its accolades. But I lost interest in it when I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies in that set over-glossy, smooth, and grindingly slow - to an extent that made the Naxos Icelanders sound significantly more enthusiastic, interestingly lively, and more suitably raw.
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
No, it's not just you. I think the Davis's Sibelius mostly
sucks (at least insofar as it's possible for Sibelius's music to be less than splendiferous)...and for exactly the same reasons you fault it. The old Davis/BSO recordings (long praised by many and reason enough for taking British criticism of British conductors with a huge shaker of salt) were partly responsible for my mistaken belief that Sibelius was a dull, superficial, late Romantic--which delayed my appreciation of his magnificent music for
decades! :'(
I also think that the Naxos set by Sakari and the Icelanders is one of the best! (Should have put it in my list of favorite cycles above). And also for the same reasons you cite; I love the raw energy in this set!
Thanks for these replies, Brian and David. All very reassuring in a way, and it makes me wonder what the guys at Penguin were thinking of when they festooned it with medals.
Erik'll be interested to read your comments too, I'll bet.
[Anyone want to buy a cheap RCA set of Sibelius symphonies?]
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 08:09:43 AM
No, it's not just you. I think the Davis's Sibelius mostly sucks (at least insofar as it's possible for Sibelius's music to be less than splendiferous)...and for exactly the same reasons you fault it. The old Davis/BSO recordings (long praised by many and reason enough for taking British criticism of British conductors with a huge shaker of salt) were partly responsible for my mistaken belief that Sibelius was a dull, superficial, late Romantic--which delayed my appreciation of his magnificent music for decades! :'(
I also think that the Naxos set by Sakari and the Icelanders is one of the best! (Should have put it in my list of favorite cycles above). And also for the same reasons you cite; I love the raw energy in this set!
Aha, another who thinks the Davis/BSO set is...OVER-RATED? I ike this forum more and more every moment.
I would never suggest that set to anyone trying to get into Sieblius. Davis is asleep at the wheel too much throughout it. And I can ndver forgive him for the lack of horns during the famous 'swan theme' of the final movement of the 5th symphony. You can hardly hear them, and it's perhaps THE moment that most people wait for in this work.
There's much else of Davis's recordings which I like very well; but his BSO recording of Debussy had me temporarily convinced that La mer was duller than dishwater.
Of course, Davis/LSO Live is another story...this is an excellent cycle. I've never bothered with his middle cycle on RCA due to the uniformly bad reviews.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 08:57:21 AM
Aha, another who thinks the Davis/BSO set is...OVER-RATED? I ike this forum more and more every moment.
I would never suggest that set to anyone trying to get into Sieblius. Davis is asleep at the wheel too much throughout it. And I can ndver forgive him for the lack of horns during the famous 'swan theme' of the final movement of the 5th symphony. You can hardly hear them, and it's perhaps THE moment that most people wait for in this work.
We're always glad to have another Sibelius fan aboard, dude! (I see you're from Lakeside--no doubt y'all have suffered the same frightening growth the past few decades that's beleaguered North County, I presume? Is Dudley's Bakery still in business?
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 09:10:36 AM
Of course, Davis/LSO Live is another story...this is an excellent cycle.
Yes, I should expect so.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 09:12:55 AM
We're always glad to have another Sibelius fan aboard, dude! (I see you're from Lakeside--no doubt y'all have suffered the same frightening growth the past few decades that's beleaguered North County, I presume? Is Dudley's Bakery still in business?
Dudley's is indeed still in business! Lakeside has experienced growth, I suppose, but it still feels like a small town...just how I like it.
Well, I don't find the 7th by Davis and the BSO dull at all (Pentatone Classics disc). In fact, that catapulted Sibelius' 7th in my all time favorite symphonies.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 09:21:03 AM
Dudley's is indeed still in business! Lakeside has experienced growth, I suppose, but it still feels like a small town...just how I like it.
Cool! Back when I was a young fellow living in Escondido (and gas was 25¢/gallon), I used to sprint up the hill on weekend mornings for some of that fresh-baked goodness. Back then the line might go out the door. Nowadays I expect it stretches halfway to Santee!
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 22, 2009, 09:23:57 AM
Well, I don't find the 7th by Davis and the BSO dull at all (Pentatone Classics disc). In fact, that catapulted Sibelius' 7th in my all time favorite symphonies.
That's great, Ray. Don't know if this is a case of different strokes, or if the Pentatone recording differs from the one on Philips, but any recording that helps us to appreciate Old Baldy is a good one in my book!
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 22, 2009, 09:23:57 AM
Well, I don't find the 7th by Davis and the BSO dull at all (Pentatone Classics disc). In fact, that catapulted Sibelius' 7th in my all time favorite symphonies.
Hmmm...I'll have to pop it into the plaer this afternoon to see if I experiece any new found appreciation. I do think his readings of the 3rd and 6th in this cycle are actually pretty good, by the way. David, perhaps, seems better tuned in to the "lighter" symphonies" in this cycle.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 06:36:30 AM
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
No, actually... from the feedback I have, all I've heard and all coinciding with my own estimation, everyone seems to know that the RCA Sibelius is not just not as good as his other go-s at Sibelius, but that it's a downright dreary, possibly even dreadful, affair.
The other two cycles have high points, but are totally overrated, too. Sibelius with the sappy emotional intelligence of Oscar Straus simply don't work. It's ironic that Davis got to known well for what he's done to that composer. (No discredit to Davis' Berlioz, though. And there's a Dresden Sibelius "2" that's more than reasonably fine, too...)
Edit: Holy cow: 8 Responses in 4 minutes or so. You certainly hit a nerve.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 09:28:10 AM
Don't know if this is a case of different strokes,
Probably just is. :)
Tapiola and Blomstedt: I'm lovin' it!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2009, 09:39:40 AM
Tapiola and Blomstedt: I'm lovin' it!
I'll be there before the day is out. Time for Sakari's 6th now. ;)
Well, I just gave Davis/BSO another go and it's not all bad, is it? Actually pretty good. Davis keep the energy flowing throughout the work in what ends up being a fairly taut yet satisfying performance. I hadn't listened to it for about a year (the Davis/BSO version, that is) and perhaps I need to take back any negative comments I once had of this performance...!
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 09:04:46 AM
Damn but it's one of the most compelling openings in the entire repertoire--and it just goes on, building bit by bit, cell by cell, like nothing anyone had ever even imagined before, and which despite my familiarity, I cannot help but get drawn into whenever I hear it.
This be truth indeed.
QuoteIf you're looking for a fantastic 1st, and 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, performed with Romantic fire and sweep, you cannot do better than Bernstein's cycle with the NYPO from the '60s (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Leonard-Bernstein/dp/B00008PW43/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1248282051&sr=1-1). (The other 3 symphonies are performed well, too!)
Could we focus for a moment on just the 1st, and gather opinions? You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1.
Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 11:10:15 AM
This be truth indeed.
Could we focus for a moment on just the 1st, and gather opinions? You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Either Segerstam/Helsinki or Davis/LSO.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 11:10:15 AM
Could we focus for a moment on just the 1st, and gather opinions? You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Maazel/WP
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2009, 11:27:36 AM
Maazel/WP
Sarge
That, likely, would have been my 3rd choice.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 22, 2009, 09:33:31 AM
Holy cow: 8 Responses in 4 minutes or so. You certainly hit a nerve.
Didn't I just? Actually this is really encouraging. I'd put my Sibelius quest on the backburner, but now I think I need to put
Davis and the LSO on the back burner, and set out afresh.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 09:31:50 AM
Hmmm...I'll have to pop it into the plaer this afternoon to see if I experiece any new found appreciation. I do think his readings of the 3rd and 6th in this cycle are actually pretty good, by the way.
They are. The negative comments about Davis and Boston really disturb me....well, actually they don't ;D I don't care what anyone else thinks. Davis' 3, 6 and 7 are among the great Sibelius interpretations (the Brits aren't wrong here). That Sixth is my all-time favorite. Davis opened up that work for me; made me see the light. Everything about it is perfect. If the Sixth is Sibelius in Mozartian mode, then that explains why Davis does it so well.
About the RCA set: greatest
Kullervo ever! Davis' slow, enormous, majestic first movement is just unbelievably awesome.
Just thought I'd chime in to provide some fairness and balance :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2009, 11:44:25 AM
They are. The negative comments about Davis and Boston really disturb me....well, actually they don't ;D I don't care what anyone else thinks. Davis' 3, 6 and 7 are among the great Sibelius interpretations (the Brits aren't wrong here). That Sixth is my all-time favorite. Davis opened up that work for me; made me see the light. Everything about it is perfect. If the Sixth is Sibelius in Mozartian mode, then that explains why Davis does it so well.
About the RCA set: greatest Kullervo ever! Davis' slow, enormous, majestic first movement is just unbelievably awesome.
Just thought I'd chime in to provide some fairness and balance :D
Sarge
What do you think of the squelched brass during the 'swan theme' in his reading of the 5th?
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 11:47:28 AM
What do you think of the squelched brass during the 'swan theme' in his reading of the 5th?
Hate it. His Boston 1, 2, and 5 I no longer listen to.
Sarge
Thanks! Great! Keep 'em coming and we'll add 'em up in a day or two, to get the Definitive Answer.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 11:12:03 AM
Either Segerstam/Helsinki or Davis/LSO.
But if you HAD to choose - which one?
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 11:52:11 AM
Thanks! Great! Keep 'em coming and we'll add 'em up in a day or two, to get the Definitive Answer.
That's the nice thing about music...definitive answers can always be reached.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 11:53:10 AM
That's the nice thing about music...definitive answers can always be reached.
Yes. We will
prove it, once and for all, so there will
never be any argument about the matter
ever again.
But which one? Which one, of your two?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2009, 11:50:26 AM
Hate it. His Boston 1, 2, and 5 I no longer listen to.
Sarge
Hahaha, well I find this completely rational. And now I'm thinking...am I over-hating the Davis/BSO cycle? I guess now that I think about it (especially after "rediscovering" his good go at the 7th just this morning), perhaps its just the 1st, 2nd and 5th I have issues with...
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 12:01:15 PM
Yes. We will prove it, once and for all, so there will never be any argument about the matter ever again.
But which one? Which one, of your two?
Oy vey, that's hard. By just a hair...Segerstam/Helsinki.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 12:02:32 PM
Oy vey, that's hard. By just a hair...Segerstam/Helsinki.
A hair is good enough!
It's a fine balance between Vänskä/Lahti and Segerstam/Helsinki, here; though I haven't heard the Maazel yet.
(It was one of my last purchases before all my time and stamina ran out a couple of months ago. Pending a relative recovery of mental and physical resources, however, I certainly should devote some time to that cycle...)
Quote from: Elgarian on July 22, 2009, 11:10:15 AM
You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Well, not that this is definitive for me (natch), but I just played the first few minutes of several contenders (Bernstein NYPO & WP, Maazel/WP, Vänskä/Lahti, Segerstam/HPO, Blomstedt/SFS, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Berglund Bournemouth & COE) and on that basis narrowed it down to Vänskä, Blomstedt, and Berglund/COE, finally selecting the last because of the combination of intensity with exemplary clarity revealing inner voices unheard elsewhere--and then I played Bernstein/NYPO once again and forgot all the others. Sure it's not the best in every respect, but it's pretty damned good and nothing else comes close to the outstanding musicianship coupled with decent sound and white hot incandescence. I might miss the others, but suspect I'd get over that every time I put Lenny's on the platter. ;D
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 12:01:23 PM
Hahaha, well I find this completely rational. And now I'm thinking...am I over-hating the Davis/BSO cycle? I guess now that I think about it (especially after "rediscovering" his good go at the 7th just this morning), perhaps its just the 1st, 2nd and 5th I have issues with...
If only there weren't all those
better cycles available, without the weaknesses: Bernstein, Blomstedt, Vänskä, Segerstam, Maazel, Berglund, Berglund, Berglund. Heck, I'd take Ashkenazy to the
desert island Lapland hut before I'd take Davis. (Especially the 1st, which is probably the best of the whole cycle.) And I'm still scratching my head over the lukewarm reception given Berglund's COE set.
Well, there really is no perfect Sibelius cycle, is there? Segerstam/Helsinki missed being pefect, though, by one symphony: the 2nd. It is such a lukewarm, dragging performance. It's almost weird how affected it is. I am not sure what Segerstam was trying to acheive by sucking this symphony dry of its lusty romantic asperations, but the results were not good. But where the 2nd is lacking, he lets things go much better with the 1st and indeed the 5th. (Segerstam's 5th is, I believe, the best currently on disc.)
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 02:52:51 PM
Well, there really is no perfect Sibelius cycle, is there? Segerstam/Helsinki missed being pefect, though, by one symphony: the 2nd. It is such a lukewarm, dragging performance. It's almost weird how affected it is. I am not sure what Segerstam was trying to acheive by sucking this symphony dry of its lusty romantic asperations, but the results were not good. But where the 2nd is lacking, he lets things go much better with the 1st and indeed the 5th. (Segerstam's 5th is, I believe, the best currently on disc.)
To me there are several perfect cycles, with Bernstein, Blomstedt, Vänskä, Segerstam, Maazel, Sakari, and Berglund all having completed cycles I find wholly satisfying. (Note that each has also recorded
Tapiola, and most also have a fine
Luonnotar and maybe even a
Kullervo or
Lemminkäinen Suite to flesh out the cycle.)
Of course, you and I doubtless have very different ideas of "perfection." I'm one of those fellows who doesn't think there is such a thing as a "perfect" or "definitive" performance or interpretation. I think that great music is open to a variety of interpretations that are equally valid, and that different performers offer us different views of a piece that is greater than any one approach can capture fully...or even the same performer at different times in life will offer different interpretations informed by learning, life experience, and personal spiritual growth, all of which are reflected in the performance.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 22, 2009, 05:41:11 PM
Of course, you and I doubtless have very different ideas of "perfection." I'm one of those fellows who doesn't think there is such a thing as a "perfect" or "definitive" performance or interpretation. I think that great music is open to a variety of interpretations that are equally valid, and that different performers offer us different views of a piece that is greater than any one approach can capture fully...or even the same performer at different times in life will offer different interpretations informed by learning, life experience, and personal spiritual growth, all of which are reflected in the performance.
Sure, any one piece of music is open to interpretation, but there is BAD interpretation as well as good, and Segerstams' 2nd symphony is, to me, a bad one. Taking a ho-hum approach to Sibelius 2 is certainly how he wanted it to sound, but I find little worth in it.
For me, the two cycles that come closest to "perfection" is Maazel/Vienna and Davis/LSO Live.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2009, 09:39:40 AMTapiola and Blomstedt: I'm lovin' it!
Of course you're loving it. Anybody except a few completely lost souls loves Tapiola with Blomstedt.
Let's see what we've got:
Berglund/COE
Bernstein/NYPO
Blomstedt/SFS
Davis/LSO Live
Maazel/WP
Segerstam/Helsinki
Vanska/Lahti
OK. Now, what I want is to buy the 'best' 1st symphony I can, to accompany me to the Lapland hut. I already have Sakari/Iceland which is OK. And I have Davis/LSO (RCA) which is very much not OK. (I'm somewhat prejudiced in favour of Vanska, because if his 1st is anything like his Wood Nymph, then I know he produces my kind of Sibelius.) I think I might start a poll in a separate thread and ask for votes, and maybe get still more opinions from passing Sibelians who might miss this thread but would stop and do the poll.
Any more contenders, before I make the poll?
I'm no expert at Sibelius' symphonies, but I think you forgot Järvi/Gothenburg as an important nowadays Sibelius interpreter.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 23, 2009, 12:40:27 AM
I'm no expert at Sibelius' symphonies, but I think you forgot Järvi/Gothenburg as an important nowadays Sibelius interpreter.
No one's mentioned him yet. Here goes:
Berglund/COE
Bernstein/NYPO
Blomstedt/SFS
Davis/LSO Live
Järvi/Gothenburg
Maazel/WP
Segerstam/Helsinki
Vanska/Lahti
My Wood Nymph CD has just arrived.....
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 22, 2009, 06:50:26 PM
Sure, any one piece of music is open to interpretation, but there is BAD interpretation as well as good, and Segerstams' 2nd symphony is, to me, a bad one. Taking a ho-hum approach to Sibelius 2 is certainly how he wanted it to sound, but I find little worth in it.
Hmmmm. The 2nd is my least favorite so doesn't get much play...but Segerstam is one of my favorites among the more Romantic interpreters. Hard to believe he wanted a boring rendition; usually he goes in the other direction, emphasizing drama rather than just letting the music speak for itself. Guess his second with the HPO is long overdue for a spin. 8)
Well if you are going to have Bernstein, you might as well add Ormandy and Barbirolli, I might be the absolutely one to find positive things to say but it would certainly contrast the overwhelming modernist list that you have now Elgarian. :)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on July 23, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
Well, you don't like the 4th? This fine mysterious piece? Give it a try with Segerstam.
My problem - well, it's hardly a problem, as such - is that I'm in the process of discovering an endless ocean of Handel, Vivaldi, and baroque in general, that I love so much that it
hurts; and there's
so much of it to explore and so little time. By contrast, there's Sibelius 4, 6 and 7, all of which have had a fair amount of my time already, with little success. My revisiting of the 6th today suggests to me that I haven't changed much in this area; so ... I'm not keen to keep pushing at this one.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 04:27:40 AM
Hmmmm. The 2nd is my least favorite so doesn't get much play...but Segerstam is one of my favorites among the more Romantic interpreters. Hard to believe he wanted a boring rendition; usually he goes in the other direction, emphasizing drama rather than just letting the music speak for itself. Guess his second with the HPO is long overdue for a spin. 8)
It's hard for me to believe that Segerstam wanted full-throated romanticism in this reading of the second. he delivers it in the 1st and 5th, but something is strangly lacking here. It's as if he wanted to do something different to what is usually listed as people's favorite symphony of the 7. It's like he wanted to go for some "classical" style approach and de-emphasize the dramatic qualities in favor of something else. I'm not sure what that something else is, but his interpretation just does not work for me. I remember the first time I heard it, I was massively dissapointed.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2009, 07:49:34 AM
My problem - well, it's hardly a problem, as such - is that I'm in the process of discovering an endless ocean of Handel, Vivaldi, and baroque in general, that I love so much that it hurts; and there's so much of it to explore and so little time. By contrast, there's Sibelius 4, 6 and 7, all of which have had a fair amount of my time already, with little success. My revisiting of the 6th today suggests to me that I haven't changed much in this area; so ... I'm not keen to keep pushing at this one.
I would urge you NOT to give up on symphonies 4, 6 and 7. For a while, even in all of my Sibelius-mania, the 6th was the symphony I returned to the least. It was just too strange, too ephemeral. But I never gave up on. I would always remember a (somewhat curious) quote by the composer himself on the 6th: "passion and rage are essential in it." Passion and rage? This is, for the most part, a very serene work. What could the composer be talking about? But I discovered after a few deep listens, there did seem to be something seething, just below the surface. It occasionally manifests with a brief brass outburst, but it is usually hidden below. I don't know if it's power of suggestion from the composer's quote, but that latent rage and passion did make me understand a little bit better.
And then there is another quote on the 6th that I love. Sibelius said that, in this work, "the shadows lengthen." What does he mean by this? It's often taken that Sibelius is beginning to come to terms with that fact he was really entering into old age. The lengthening of the shadows is something like getting closer to death. Though this work is not grim, it's like a sort of peaceful resignation.
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes, but after time it came to be my favorite of his symphonies.
Just as an aside, one of the enticing items in this latest box of live Concertgebouw recordings (from 1980-1990) is a Sibelius Sixth conducted by Sir Colin Davis, taped Jan. 20, 1983. I don't know the piece all that well (heard it, but not to the point of familiarity), but will post comments afterward.
--Bruce
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 08:57:05 AM
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes
The first recording of the
Fourth I ever heard, was
HvK, too 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8)
Hahahaha, Karajan's 4th is often considered one of the best...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8)
Hey what a coincidence! :D
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 08:57:05 AM
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes,
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8)
;D ;D ;D >:D
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 09:17:38 AM
Hahahaha, Karajan's 4th is often considered one of the best...
Yes...and the check is in the mail, sure I'll respect you in the morning, and Obama's socialized medicine plan will reduce costs while improving services!
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 09:18:07 AM
Hey what a coincidence! :D
I've been intrigued by the fourth since the first time I heard it, and learned to love it soon after. Maazel/WP. Still one of the best, methinks, and not solely because I imprinted on it. (As for Herbie the K's DGG 4th, it's not as bad as one might think--though I'd want to hear it again before betting on it. Seems I used to think it was pretty good but changed my mind last time I played it. Hmmm.)
Still haven't made time for Segerstam/HPO 2nd...but lunchtime approaches!
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 09:40:24 AM
I've been intrigued by the fourth since the first time I heard it, and learned to love it soon after. Maazel/WP.
That's the one which 'redeemed' the piece for me, after it had been . . .
Herbied 8)
A former gmg member sent me a copy of Maazel, and it is sweet! 8) Segerstam is perfectly fine for me though, of course that is my favorite cycle.
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 09:45:19 AM
A former gmg member sent me a copy of Maazel, and it is sweet! 8) Segerstam is perfectly fine for me though, of course that is my favorite cycle.
I first read that as "former
gang member" -- appropriate, eh? Mike, I would guess. Segerstam may be more dramatic, IIRC, and though I generally prefer leaner readings, like Vänskä or Blomstedt, and my absolute favorite 4th these days is Berglund/COE, I still think Segerstam's cycle is first rate, right up there with Lennie & Lorin for romantic vigor, but even more lush and in very good sound!
Damn! All this recent discussion about Sibelius is kicking my jones into high gear. Must...hear...
Sibelius!
Yeah it was your review that got me to acquire the Segerstam cycle Dave. I wanted Lennie like performances with better sound, and bingo! :)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 10:01:27 AM
Damn! All this recent discussion about Sibelius is kicking my jones into high gear. Must...hear...Sibelius!
Yes, as soon as this here
Hindemith Nobilissima visione is done, I'm tossing on
Lenny & the
NYPhil playing the mighty
Fourth!
Count me as another who would counsel people not to give up on the 4th, 6th and 7th (definitely my favourites from the cycle, though I tend to prefer the more introverted, concise Sibelius).
I only have the Davis remake of the 3rd, and haven't really enjoyed it--this thread is making it clear to me I should acquire another. Suggestions? (Right now I'd be inclining to buying the Blomstedt set.)
Quote from: DavidW on July 23, 2009, 05:48:50 AM
Well if you are going to have Bernstein, you might as well add Ormandy and Barbirolli, I might be the absolutely one to find positive things to say but it would certainly contrast the overwhelming modernist list that you have now Elgarian. :)
Thanks David. Just been listening to some samples from Bernstein's as a matter of fact, and I must say this does sound like my kind of Sibelius. Barbirolli, however, is by no means a daft suggestion. Ormandy I know nothing about.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2009, 11:50:34 AM
Barbirolli, however, is by no means a daft suggestion.
Never, indeed, to one whose handle is
Elgarian 0:) 8)
You know I hate when I drop words and don't even realize it. "absolutely only one" becomes "absolute one", arg it's so annoying. I even look over my post but my mind fills in the missing words and I don't notice their absence. ::)
Anyway nobody ever talks about Ormandy anymore. People kind of stopped caring about the Philadephia Orchestra after Stokowski stepped down. I know of Ormandy because he appears in Sony Essential Classics, which I collected alot when I was in high school because they were cheap and my stereo was so poor I couldn't hear how hissy they sounded (that was before they remastered them). At that time I actually liked his performances as much as Bernstein and would grab them up when I saw them in the store. I think most listeners don't like Ormandy as much though.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 08:51:43 AM
I would urge you NOT to give up on symphonies 4, 6 and 7.
You're a great advocate, Erik, and I'm not in the least suggesting that there aren't great treasures within those symphonies worth digging for; the trouble is that I think it requires more commitment to Sibelius than I have these days. I suppose I've given at least one of those symphonies a try, once every few years, spread over maybe 40 years. I have to ask myself how many times I should listen to them, when they've
always left me baffled, bored and unmoved. There's never been a glimmer of light. Against that experience, there is this vast ocean of hitherto unexplored music beckoning from the baroque, most of which I'm pretty sure will be enormously rewarding. I don't think I'm being defeatist; I'm just juggling priorities.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 23, 2009, 11:55:26 AM
Never, indeed, to one whose handle is Elgarian 0:) 8)
Exactly so; it puzzles me somewhat that I've never heard any Barbirolli Sibelius as far as I recall. But I suppose many of my omissions in all walks of life would puzzle me if I chose to contemplate them.
Quote from: edward on July 23, 2009, 11:12:48 AM
I only have the Davis remake of the 3rd, and haven't really enjoyed it--this thread is making it clear to me I should acquire another. Suggestions? (Right now I'd be inclining to buying the Blomstedt set.)
Suggestions for 3rd or the cycle? If 3rd try Mustonen/Helsinki Festival Orchestra on Ondine.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 23, 2009, 12:12:54 PM
Exactly so; it puzzles me somewhat that I've never heard any Barbirolli Sibelius as far as I recall. But I suppose many of my omissions in all walks of life would puzzle me if I chose to contemplate them.
I think you'd like his Sibelius, he has a very romantic take on the symphonies. A bit slow at times, but never plodding.
Quote from: Tapkaara on July 23, 2009, 08:42:01 AM
It's hard for me to believe that Segerstam wanted full-throated romanticism in this reading of the second. he delivers it in the 1st and 5th, but something is strangly lacking here. It's as if he wanted to do something different to what is usually listed as people's favorite symphony of the 7. It's like he wanted to go for some "classical" style approach and de-emphasize the dramatic qualities in favor of something else. I'm not sure what that something else is, but his interpretation just does not work for me. I remember the first time I heard it, I was massively dissapointed.
Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?) -- I played through this 2nd and I sure get what you're talking about. To me, Segerstam's conception is very expansive and subjugates structure to the beauty of the sounds--particularly the HPO winds and brass, splendidly refurbished since Berglund recorded his cycle with the same orchestra back in the '80s. It's grand and lush, but not especially dramatic. From my perspective it works reasonably well, but it flags a bit in the fourth movement. Where he really ought to hold more tension, via crisp attacks in the brass, strings, and timpani, he's too soft instead of edgy. Instead of energy building to a climax, he lets things drift a bit and get somewhat...er...
flaccid.I think Segerstam is striving for some deep, spiritual introspection--informed, perhaps, by looking forward to the fourth symphony--but it seems a bit out of place, at least for those accustomed to the tightening tension of more overtly dramatic interpretations, like Bernstein/NYPO, Szell/RCO, or Barbirolli/RPO. I don't think it's
bad...just different; but I can certainly see how a listener expecting a blazing statement of symphonic drama would be disappointed by that finale. Such listeners would definitely be better served by one of the three just mentioned--and they should definitely stay away from what is becoming my favorite recording of the second, Bernstein's last with the WP: a glorious example of everything wrong with the excessive, indulgent Lenny in his later years...and everything right as well--
in spades!
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 03:29:57 PM
Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?) -- I played through this 2nd and I sure get what you're talking about. To me, Segerstam's conception is very expansive and subjugates structure to the beauty of the sounds--particularly the HPO winds and brass, splendidly refurbished since Berglund recorded his cycle with the same orchestra back in the '80s. It's grand and lush, but not especially dramatic. From my perspective it works reasonably well, but it flags a bit in the fourth movement. Where he really ought to hold more tension, via crisp attacks in the brass, strings, and timpani, he's too soft instead of edgy. Instead of energy building to a climax, he lets things drift a bit and get somewhat...er...flaccid.
I think Segerstam is striving for some deep, spiritual introspection--informed, perhaps, by looking forward to the fourth symphony--but it seems a bit out of place, at least for those accustomed to the tightening tension of more overtly dramatic interpretations, like Bernstein/NYPO, Szell/RCO, or Barbirolli/RPO. I don't think it's bad...just different; but I can certainly see how a listener expecting a blazing statement of symphonic drama would be disappointed by that finale. Such listeners would definitely be better served by one of the three just mentioned--and they should definitely stay away from what is becoming my favorite recording of the second, Bernstein's last with the WP: a glorious example of everything wrong with the excessive, indulgent Lenny in his later years...and everything right as well--in spades!
You can call me Erik. ;)
Well, at least I know I'm making things up in my head. I'm encouraged that I'm not the only one who finds this performance to be, as you put if, flaccid.
You had some great points. Things sound rounder, cushier and more flowy as opposed to tense, moody and snappy. It is as if Segerstam is going for a more introspective approach...he is trying to get to the deep down soul of the music. But I don't think symphony is about the little nuances as much as, say, the 4th. I see this work as a more extroverted, Romantic piece, and it needs all of the sizzling energy you can bring to it. So focusing on its softer side is not the way to go. (It would be like trying to emphasize the softer side of Le Sacred du printemps...why on EARTH would you want a cushy, safe performance of that??)
Yeah, I agree about the ending. That great ending (one of the best in music, I think) has no momentum or profundity in Segerstam's hands. What a shame. It's just one weird, unappealing performance in general.
[/quote]
Speaking of the 4th, the first 4th I truly, deeply (insert melancholic violin solo) loved was Karajan - but not by any means the DG. It's the 1953 Philharmonia 4th on EMI, still my favourite. The DG version was too wall-of-sound for me to start with, although I do appreciate it now.
Quote from: Renfield on July 23, 2009, 05:08:09 PM
Speaking of the 4th, the first 4th I truly, deeply (insert melancholic violin solo) loved was Karajan - but not by any means the DG. It's the 1953 Philharmonia 4th on EMI, still my favourite. The DG version was too wall-of-sound for me to start with, although I do appreciate it now.
I was actually unimpressed with Kajaran's 4th the first time I heard it, but I have since warmed up to it. I know what you mean by too "wall of sound" like. Notwithstanding, Karajan keeps the momentum moving pretty well, and it is a fine performance.
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 23, 2009, 03:29:57 PM
Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?)
I owe you (and
Bruce—
bhodges, I mean) an apology for creating a certain amount of confusion,
Dave. I didn't remember
Erik's actual name, he being a new acquaintance, and me being awful at new-names-attached-to-new-user-IDs. So my referring to him as "new Bruce" was an allusion to the Philosophy Department at the University of Wollamaloo, where a chap named
Michael is called
Bruce just to keep it clear:
http://www.youtube.com/v/_f_p0CgPeyA
Hot enough to boil a monkey's bum, in here.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2009, 04:48:21 AM
I owe you (and Bruce—bhodges, I mean) an apology for creating a certain amount of confusion, Dave. I didn't remember Erik's actual name, he being a new acquaintance, and me being awful at new-names-attached-to-new-user-IDs. So my referring to him as "new Bruce" was an allusion to the Philosophy Department at the University of Wollamaloo, where a chap named Michael is called Bruce just to keep it clear:
Roight! Thanks for clearing that up, myte. Off to my sheep-dipping class, now. Today we're going to dip the sheep in a lovely dark chocolate sauce punctuated with raspberries and blanched almonds.
And apologies to new Bruce...er, Erik...for calling him "Bruce." It is a poofterish sort of name (excepting our own bhodges, of course!), and rules number 2, 5, and 7 of the Snowshoed Sibelius fan club, drill team, and sheep-dipping squad clearly state, "No poofters." (Not that there's anything wrong with that--but that's another iconic television program all together.)
Meanwhile, on topic (at last!) lest the off-topic post police banish this message to the outback: After listening to Segerstam's 2nd I later followed it with his 6th--and
loved it! (Capsule review on the "What's tickling your ears now?" thread)
Rubio - this is my favourite performance of Sibelius Symphony No 4:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5672992.jpg)
Found this offered by MDT at just under £20 yesterday, and I'm seriously considering it. Although I don't think I ever heard Barbirolli play any Sibelius, this comes from the era when I was discovering Sibelius, (and indeed attending some of Sir John's Halle concerts), so there are additional reasons for trying it, to see how it fits, today.
As far as I can discover, his version of the 1st is regarded as a cracker; and this might be a nice to way to get it - with the others thrown in effectively as bonuses.
I find the cycle to be fairly consistent, so if you like one you should like the rest. :)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 03, 2009, 12:18:39 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5672992.jpg)
Found this offered by MDT at just under £20 yesterday, and I'm seriously considering it. Although I don't think I ever heard Barbirolli play any Sibelius, this comes from the era when I was discovering Sibelius, (and indeed attending some of Sir John's Halle concerts), so there are additional reasons for trying it, to see how it fits, today.
As far as I can discover, his version of the 1st is regarded as a cracker; and this might be a nice to way to get it - with the others thrown in effectively as bonuses.
I have this set and recommend it warmly. Barbirolli was a great conductor especially in Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2009, 07:37:55 AM
I have this set and recommend it warmly. Barbirolli was a great conductor especially in Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.
I would recommend it for its great (as in: extraordinary, but also as in: very fine) personality. Not necessarily to set and Sibeliean standard.
At a good price, it's one of the 'essential supplemantary' Sibelius cycles.
Thanks for the comments, folks. Bearing your comments in mind, and my own Barbirolli-ish inclinations, I think at this price I'll be daft not to get it.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 03, 2009, 09:49:21 AM
Thanks for the comments, folks. Bearing your comments in mind, and my own Barbirolli-ish inclinations, I think at this price I'll be daft not to get it.
Barbiolli's foray in the the Sibelius Second with the Royal Phil on Chesky is often listed as the be-all-and-end-all recording of the work. I've not heard these Hallé recordings (believe it or not!), but if they are anything like his S2, Elgarian should be a happy camper.
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too! But the discs can be difficult to to get outside Japan.
Symphonies
4 & 5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/goodmusicguide-20), Less outrageously expensive in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD9C/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphony
2 & Tapiola, Swan of T. (UK) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0017OCMNQ/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
1 & 3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P0IB1U/goodmusicguide-20), in the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013GBD92/nectarandambrUK-21)
Symphonies
6 & 7, UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001B3HDJG/nectarandambrUK-21)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box.
Davis III (LSO live) has just been released as a box.
I've found the Sixten Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Thanks to Wurstwasser who also found the Ehling cycle on HMV (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/441019).
I'll include it once I find three more cycles to complete a row.
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/2/4/517.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO (Japan only)
Russia Ed. ~$26,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bmIYU5O7L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(Europe only) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LXQCbJedL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: jlaurson on October 16, 2009, 05:44:57 PM
Update: How about voting on favorite Versions of individual Symphonies, which I'll include here, too??
Don't think I have clear cut favorites for all symphonies, some I like:
#1 Berliner Sinfonie-Orchester / Kurt Sanderling
#3 Helsinki Festival Orchestra / Olli Mustonen
#4 Wiener Philharmoniker / Lorin Maazel
#7 Leningrad Philharmonic / Evgeny Mravinsky
p.s. Isn't it Sixten, and not Sixtus Ehrling?
Quote from: Drasko on October 17, 2009, 12:55:06 AM
p.s. Isn't it Sixten, and not Sixtus Ehrling?
Yep; he was Swedish, not Roman! ;)
Quote from: erato on October 17, 2009, 07:52:24 AM
Yep; he was Swedish, not Roman! ;)
IS Swedish - still going strong!
Quote from: matti on October 18, 2009, 10:45:55 AM
IS Swedish - still going strong!
As in new recordings? He has given us much valuable, but I admit to thinking he was dead since I cannot seem to remember stumbling across his name for a long time.
Quote from: erato on October 19, 2009, 12:12:51 AM
As in new recordings? He has given us much valuable, but I admit to thinking he was dead since I cannot seem to remember stumbling across his name for a long time.
No idea about his current recording projects, but rumours of his death are premature. He recently conducted a concert in Helsinki. http://yle.fi/rso/show_page.php?page=2199&cmd=series&ID=391&lang=eng
"If someone writes about my music and finds, let us say, a feeling of nature in it, all well and good. Let him say that, as long as we have it clear within ourselves, we do not become a part of the music's innermost sound and sense through analysis ... Compositions are like butterflies. Touch them even once and the dust of hue is gone. They can, of course, still fly, but are nowhere as beautiful..."
Very sound advice. ;D
I have never been much of a fan of Colin Davis's Sibelius symphony recordings (LSO or Boston SO) - finding them largely unengaging and overrated. However, the CD of tone poems below was an absolute revelation. I bought it very cheaply on Amazon UK (you can find it there for under £4) and I can't stop playing it. I would go so far as saying that these are top recommendations for all the works featured - wonderfully warm and atmospheric recordings and terrific performances from Davis and the LSO. I shall have to revise my views of this conductor! Even the ubiquitous 'Finlandia' gripped me and Karelia, Oceanides and Tapiola are all riveting:
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2009, 02:36:17 PM
I have never been much of a fan of Colin Davis's Sibelius symphony recordings (LSO or Boston SO) - finding them largely unengaging and overrated.
Reading this far, I was nodding emphatically. Among all my various box sets (I mean of anything, not just Sibelius), the Davis LSO/RCA set is probably the single biggest dud. So much so that it's almost left me with Davisibeliophobia: I'd cross the road to avoid going near a Colin Davis Sibelius CD. So these comments here ...
QuoteHowever, the CD of tone poems below was an absolute revelation. I bought it very cheaply on Amazon UK (you can find it there for under £4) and I can't stop playing it. I would go so far as saying that these are top recommendations for all the works featured - wonderfully warm and atmospheric recordings and terrific performances from Davis and the LSO. I shall have to revise my views of this conductor!
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=341.0;attach=22013;image)
... challenged all my prejudices. I read your comments and thought, no, surely not. Then I registered your enthusiasm and thought, but what if? So thanks for this stimulating (albeit unnerving) recommendation.
Does the Decca song set come with texts? At least the enclosure with the LP set was readable.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2009, 02:36:17 PMI have never been much of a fan of Colin Davis's Sibelius symphony recordings (LSO or Boston SO) - finding them largely unengaging and overrated. However, the CD of tone poems below was an absolute revelation. I bought it very cheaply on Amazon UK (you can find it there for under £4) and I can't stop playing it.
IIRC he was humming very loud in Finlandia?! Well, it's Colin Davis, so humming is very likely....
Quote from: Elgarian on November 15, 2009, 12:32:11 PM
Reading this far, I was nodding emphatically. Among all my various box sets (I mean of anything, not just Sibelius), the Davis LSO/RCA set is probably the single biggest dud. So much so that it's almost left me with Davisibeliophobia: I'd cross the road to avoid going near a Colin Davis Sibelius CD. So these comments here ...
... challenged all my prejudices. I read your comments and thought, no, surely not. Then I registered your enthusiasm and thought, but what if? So thanks for this stimulating (albeit unnerving) recommendation.
Interesting comments. The odd thing is that all the record guides etc seem to bubble over with enthusiasm for Davis' Sibelius symphony recordings - I agree with you - I never play them and I can say the same for his much praised recent LSO recording of Walton's First Symphony. But, worth trying those RCA Sibelius tone poems.
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius). ??? Ditto for Rattle (everything).
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 17, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius). ??? Ditto for Rattle (everything).
it's cyclical. overratedness is followed by taker-down-mania which is followed by 'daring reassessment' of greatness which is then... etc.
action & re-action... marx overreacted capitalism, ayn rand overreacted to socialism... that sort of thing. ;)
Quote from: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 01:00:40 PM
it's cyclical. overratedness is followed by taker-down-mania which is followed by 'daring reassessment' of greatness which is then... etc.
action & re-action... marx overreacted capitalism, ayn rand overreacted to socialism... that sort of thing. ;)
That's about it. And I'm not really fond of C. Davis' Sibelius, either. $:)
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 17, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius).
When I started to collect recordings, Davis/Boston was one of the few Sibelius cycles available. Perhaps for that reason critics overpraised it. We have so much choice now it's easy to dismiss that old classic set. But forty years on I still like his Boston Third and Seventh. It's hard to fault his Fourth too although there are several other versions I prefer. I've never heard a finer Sixth though. To me it's the definitive version. I also love his RCA/LSO
Kullervo. I can't defend that choice (he
Brucknerizes the music) but it works for me better than any of the other nine Kullervos I own.
Sarge
Most of the critics I've read agree that Davis/Boston and Davis/LSO Live are greatly superior to Davis/LSO RCA.
I ordered the Berglund box (EMI) the other day. I've discovered that I prefer my Sibelius to be classically charged, in the sense of being fleet and daring and abrupt rather than expansive. The exception is the finale of Symphony No 5, which I wish would never end ... I still haven't found a recording of this finale that's voluptuous enough for me. The unanimous E flat played by the strings in the last minute and a half seems to me not just to be a triumph against the symphony's own drama and doubts (I feel this is a symphony that doubts itself, until the end - maybe I'm expressing this inaccurately; will have to give it some thought) but an affirmation of tonality itself.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 18, 2009, 05:12:16 AM
I've never heard a finer Sixth though.
Have you heard Vanska? What are your thoughts comparing these two interpretations?
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 17, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius).
If it's backlash, it's not consciously so in my case. I was drawn to his RCA LSO Sibelius box set by its cheapness, and by the rave reviews and (naively) I expected to find it wonderful. I was dismayed to discover that I had never heard Sibelius sound so lifeless before. I understand his LSO Live Sibelius symphonies are much better, but I'm reluctant to invest further in that direction, particularly now that I have Vanska's recordings of the symphonies to explore.
Quote from: Elgarian on November 18, 2009, 07:20:24 AM
If it's backlash, it's not consciously so in my case. I was drawn to his RCA LSO Sibelius box set by its cheapness, and by the rave reviews and (naively) I expected to find it wonderful. I was dismayed to discover that I had never heard Sibelius sound so lifeless before. I understand his LSO Live Sibelius symphonies are much better, but I'm reluctant to invest further in that direction, particularly now that I have Vanska's recordings of the symphonies to explore.
This goes for me too. I heard Colin Davis do a very good live performance of Vaughan Williams' 6th Symphony and wish that he had recorded it.
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 17, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius). ??? Ditto for Rattle (everything).
Re Davis, I've found myself in possession of almost all of his Sibelius recordings, mostly on account of various offers.
And even though I
do not compare him to Vänskä at all, given how I'm not a 'there can only be one' (thanks
Drasko) kind of listener, I still find time to relish certain aspects of what he does with some of the symphonies, with his Boston 3rd in particular close to being my outright favourite, in purely musical (vs. atmospheric, cultural) terms. The LSO Live 2nd is another standout.
Between his cycles, I think the Boston one is the 'cleanest' and most focused, the LSO Live the most involved, and the RCA possibly the best-played one; IIRC, the 6th in that one was very good, as were indeed some of the tone poems. :)
Re Simon Rattle, I like, and to an extent
admire him as a conductor for much of his Birmingham (though not the Sibelius), and most of his Berlin work; in fact, I might say he's the best thing that happened to the BPO since Karajan.
So make what you will of my personal taste, compared to yours!
Quote from: Renfield on November 18, 2009, 03:36:28 PM
[...] given how I'm not a 'there can only be one' (thanks Drasko) kind of listener [...]
Ah, the Highlander kind! 8)
I have a wee soft spot for Davis RCA cycle mainly because it was a disc of his 3rd and 5th that was my first taste of Sibelius (well, aside from Finlandia on a compliation, so my first taste of real Sibelius). Though i've now, in my mind, superceded that cycle with my favourites Vanska and Blomstedt, I still don't think i've heard a Sibelius 3rd I like more than Davis's. And i'm still really fond of his Nightride, so I imagine i'll keep his boxset for the time being.
Don't get my started on the Boston cycle though. Lordy lordy no, no, no...
Happy birthday, Jean Sibelius!
Quote from: Brian on December 08, 2009, 07:23:30 AM
Happy birthday, Jean Sibelius!
Listening to the 7th! Thanks for letting us know, Brian. :)
Quote from: Brian on December 08, 2009, 07:23:30 AM
Happy birthday, Jean Sibelius!
Ah...that must be why I felt an overwhelming compulsion to hear
Tapiola this morning!
(And it was good.)
re: Davis-Cycles: Unfortunately lacking a "Wood Nymph" performance. I'm wondering why nobody performs the Nymph, it's such a powerful orchestral work. To my knowledge and very regrettable, there's still only Vänskä/Lahti and Sato/Kuopio.
BBC Discovering Music - Sibelius' Tapiola
"Stephen Johnson joins the BBC Philharmonic, conducted by Martyn Brabbins, for a workshop on the great Finnish composer's final orchestral work."
Not sure if I uploaded it. Now I did it, alongside with the web site, as maybe one day it will disappear. Realaudio sucks and BBC is changing to wma. So I decided to download the stream before it disappears, and converted it to mp3 and packed it together with the web page contents. Have fun.
Download (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/BBC%20Discovering%20Music%20-%20Sibelius%20-%20Tapiola.zip) - Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/pip/ftng8/)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 16, 2009, 09:02:22 AM
re: Davis-Cycles: Unfortunately lacking a "Wood Nymph" performance. I'm wondering why nobody performs the Nymph, it's such a powerful orchestral work. To my knowledge and very regrettable, there's still only Vänskä/Lahti and Sato/Kuopio.
The world's best looking conductor, Estonian Anu Tali, has recorded the melodrama version of the
Wood Nymph (for narrator, two horns, piano and strings) with the orchestra she and her twin sister founded:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/KadriAnuTali.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/d89ffbd5.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/Tuli.jpg)
I like it but it's only about half the length of the fully orchestrated tone poem.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2009, 06:55:05 AM
The world's best looking conductor, Estonian Anu Tali, has recorded the melodrama version of the Wood Nymph (for narrator, two horns, piano and strings) with the orchestra she and her twin sister founded:
a.) That's sexist.
b.) It is WRONG (http://www.riccardomuti.com/Immagini.aspx).
;)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 21, 2009, 06:55:05 AM
The world's best looking conductor
For your consideration: Sarah Ioannides, El Paso Symphony Orchestra.
(http://www.lubowphotography.com/_B1P4812.jpg)
Mr. Rock, I knew about that CD, but I really don't like the narrated version.
How I condemn the sexism amongst you guys :P
Alondra de la Parra.
(http://losconcertistassalvajes.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/alondra_de_la_parra.jpg)
My local orchestra is considering Ms de la Parra for the role of music director ... I think my vote may have just been cast (though Rossen Milanov is a terrific young conductor!).
Quote from: Brian on December 21, 2009, 12:19:12 PM
(though Rossen Milanov is a terrific young conductor!).
He is? He seems to do a lot of work with the RSNO here, but being rather picky about my concerts, I've yet to hear him in action.
Mental note made.
Quote from: Renfield on December 22, 2009, 07:49:08 AM
He is? He seems to do a lot of work with the RSNO here, but being rather picky about my concerts, I've yet to hear him in action.
Mental note made.
I saw him in the following program:
BORODIN | Polovtsian Dances (w/ chorus) - on the slow side, the very slow side, largely because choirs in San Antonio, TX can't sing in Russian
HAYDN | One of the London symphonies - obviously it didn't make much of an impression. No sign of knowledge of the HIP movement, FWIW
PROKOFIEV | Alexander Nevsky Cantata - totally thrilling, really brought out the very best in the orchestra. My mom professes to "hate modernism" and the 20th century generally, except Rachmaninov, but she got caught up in this and couldn't stop talking about it.
In terms of demeanor, Milanov is energetic, young, and pretty eager; he gave a little talk which was enthusiastic and all-smiles. The San Antonio Symphony isn't the number-one orchestra in the world, but they tried their best to be for him.
Quote from: Brian on December 21, 2009, 08:59:32 AM
(http://www.lubowphotography.com/_B1P4812.jpg)
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 21, 2009, 11:21:50 AM
(http://losconcertistassalvajes.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/alondra_de_la_parra.jpg)
Both very nice but being the sexist pig I am, I'll still take the twins >:D :D
Sarge
I recently listened to all of my recordings of Sibelius' Symphony No. 5. Here is my ranking in order of preference, with brief impressions of each recording:
1. Blomsted/SFS: Expansive, atmospheric and dynamic.
2. Maazel/VPO: The tempos are on the fast side, but they work well with the excellent playing.
3. Bernstein/NYPO (on Sony): Slow and dramatic. This has the slowest third movement I've heard.
4. Vanska/Lahti SO: Excellent sound quality.
5. Davis/LSO (on LSO Live): This one feels a little too heavy.
6. Davis/BSO: The first movement is too slow. The brass sound sloppy and harsh in the third movement.
Quote from: Keemun on December 24, 2009, 07:04:28 AM
I recently listened to all of my recordings of Sibelius' Symphony No. 5. Here is my ranking in order of preference, with brief impressions of each recording:
1. Blomsted/SFS: Expansive, atmospheric and dynamic.
2. Maazel/VPO: The tempos are on the fast side, but they work well with the excellent playing.
3. Bernstein/NYPO: Slow and dramatic. This has the slowest third movement I've heard.
4. Vanska/Lahti SO: Excellent sound quality.
5. Davis/LSO (on LSO Live): This one feels a little too heavy.
6. Davis/BSO: The first movement is too slow. The brass sound sloppy and harsh in the third movement.
Interesting. I would have the top three in your list completely reversed and have Vanska in there at second instead of Blomstedt, just for the sheer showmanship of the music. Blomstedt has a more classically hewn baton in everything he does and just sometimes I get waylaid by the beauty of the direction instead of the passion of the music.
Quote from: Keemun on December 24, 2009, 07:04:28 AM
3. Bernstein/NYPO: Slow and dramatic. This has the slowest third movement I've heard.
Sounds like I will need to hear that one. However, I like my first movement moderate, my second movement fast, and my third movement very slow. So far the closest to the mark for me has been Berglund/Helsinki (out of Davis/LSO Live, Vanska, Davis/Boston, Salonen/Verbier, Salonen/SRSO, and Segerstam/Helsinki).
Perhaps I like my finale so slow because I'm a totally hopeless romantic. It should begin at a quick tempo, step on the breaks when the horns enter with the "swan" theme, and then generally be measured until the conclusion. I like to be able to wallow in the rapturous, ecstatic E-flat unison strings of the last minute or so before the last chords. Segerstam was therefore jarring because he takes the movement very slowly until the final moment of rapture, then accelerates wildly, races to the finish, and delivers the last chords with little bitty silences. Felt robbed!
Quote from: Brian on December 26, 2009, 07:46:34 PM
to wallow in the rapturous, ecstatic E-flat unison strings of the last minute or so before the last chords.
You'll like the Bernstein, then.
(Assuming the one in question is the DG NYPO; the earlier version wallows less , and is noticeably less interventionist.)
Quote from: Renfield on December 26, 2009, 08:47:18 PM
You'll like the Bernstein, then.
(Assuming the one in question is the DG NYPO; the earlier version wallows less , and is noticeably less interventionist.)
I'd forgotten that there were two NYPO versions. The one in question is the earlier version (1961) on Sony. I've edited my original post accordingly. I haven't heard the later version on DG, but it definitely sound interesting.
Quote from: John on December 26, 2009, 06:59:56 PM
Interesting. I would have the top three in your list completely reversed and have Vanska in there at second instead of Blomstedt, just for the sheer showmanship of the music. Blomstedt has a more classically hewn baton in everything he does and just sometimes I get waylaid by the beauty of the direction instead of the passion of the music.
Vanska is good, but it just didn't have the same effect on me as the top three did. Blomstedt evokes the mystery that I associate with much of Sibelius' music. In comparison, I found Maazel to be more classically played with much warmer playing. Bernstein's overly slow third movement cost it a higher ranking. The drama was good, but its slowness still bothered me a little. I'm actually surprised by this because I usually like Bernstein's slow and dramatic readings. I guess it didn't work for me with Sibelius' 5th, but perhaps his later DG version would. There was nothing great about the two Davis recordings, and the third movement of Davis/BSO just sounds bad in my opinion.
Quote from: Keemun on December 27, 2009, 07:40:08 AM
. . . Bernstein's overly slow third movement cost it a higher ranking. The drama was good, but its slowness still bothered me a little.
Yes, just a little mannered.
Quote from: Keemun on December 27, 2009, 07:28:14 AM
I'd forgotten that there were two NYPO versions. The one in question is the earlier version (1961) on Sony. I've edited my original post accordingly. I haven't heard the later version on DG, but it definitely sound interesting.
Ouch! If the slowness bothers you in that version, maybe I should advise you to stay away from the DG at all costs. :P
It's one of the most bent-out-of-shape recordings Bernstein has ever done, though I absolutely love it; and I know
Sarge does too.
Quote from: Renfield on December 27, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
Ouch! If the slowness bothers you in that version, maybe I should advise you to stay away from the DG at all costs. :P
It's one of the most bent-out-of-shape recordings Bernstein has ever done, though I absolutely love it; and I know Sarge does too.
Thanks. Duly noted. :D
Quote from: Keemun on December 28, 2009, 07:16:45 AM
Thanks. Duly noted. :D
On the other hand, and on a totally unrelated note, you will love Lenny's slowed-down-and-immensely-improved Dvorak Seventh! The intervention isn't too dramatic [40:15 to Szell's 35:35, Suitner's 36:48 and Kubelik's 38:03], so one might not even consider it intervention at all, but it's certainly effective. A really dark, impassioned performance.
Local charity shops usually have unappealing choice of CDs - ie freebie which comes with Gramophone and 'Greatest Hits of 1982' etc, but delighted yesterday to pick up Kullervo Symphony (Colin Davis) for £1.00. I don't usually like Davis' Sibelius but this sounds good.
Quote from: Brian on December 21, 2009, 08:59:32 AM
For your consideration: Sarah Ioannides, El Paso Symphony Orchestra.
(http://www.lubowphotography.com/_B1P4812.jpg)
Bloody hell!
I wonder what her Sibelius is like? (on topic)
Quote from: Renfield on December 26, 2009, 08:47:18 PM
You'll like the Bernstein, then. (Assuming the one in question is the DG NYPO; the earlier version wallows less , and is noticeably less interventionist.)
Quote from: Renfield on December 27, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
It's one of the most bent-out-of-shape recordings Bernstein has ever done, though I absolutely love it; and I know Sarge does too.
I do love it. It's not quite as perversely bent-out-of-shape as his DG Second...but almost ;D One correction, though: Bernstein's DG Fifth is with the Vienna Phil, not New York.
Other Fifths I love: Berglund/Bournemouth and COE, Rattle/Philh.
Sarge
Quote from: vandermolen on January 31, 2010, 09:15:40 AM
...but delighted yesterday to pick up Kullervo Symphony (Colin Davis) for £1.00. I don't usually like Davis' Sibelius but this sounds good.
It is good, even great (I'm assuming you bought the LSO live recording). I still prefer (probably alone in this) his earlier performance on RCA. They are very different. Timings don't tell all but you'll notice the RCA is much slower. I think that works especially well in the first and last movements, perhaps not so well in the Allegro Vivace third movement.
RCA LSO LIVE
I 16.18 14.22
II 15.58 14.04
III 26.01 23.22
IV 10.27 10.18
V 11.53 9.46
The RCA really inspired Hurwitz poetically ;D "the drably rendered Lemminkäinen Suite and Fifth Symphony, which, along with the deadly dull Kullervo form the artistic nadir of the set." But he gave the new version 10/10
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9605
Sarge
Most interesting, Sarge.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 04:46:27 AM
It is good, even great (I'm assuming you bought the LSO live recording). I still prefer (probably alone in this) his earlier performance on RCA. They are very different. Timings don't tell all but you'll notice the RCA is much slower. I think that works especially well in the first and last movements, perhaps not so well in the Allegro Vivace third movement.
RCA LSO LIVE
I 16.18 14.22
II 15.58 14.04
III 26.01 23.22
IV 10.27 10.18
V 11.53 9.46
The RCA really inspired Hurwitz poetically ;D "the drably rendered Lemminkäinen Suite and Fifth Symphony, which, along with the deadly dull Kullervo form the artistic nadir of the set." But he gave the new version 10/10
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9605
Sarge
Very interesting and yes, it was the LSO live version I have. Generally I have been very disappointed by Davis' Sibelius symphony recordings but I really enjoyed the RCA CD of tone poems including Tapiola.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2010, 04:35:49 AM
I do love it. It's not quite as perversely bent-out-of-shape as his DG Second...but almost ;D One correction, though: Bernstein's DG Fifth is with the Vienna Phil, not New York.
Oops! I had his 'Pathetique' in mind when I wrote that (even though my comments did refer to the Sibelius).
Important message for us Sibelians: Finland is now on Google Street View.
Sibeliustalo/Sibelius Hall (http://bit.ly/96Rf0P)
Ainola (the house) must be here somewhere (http://bit.ly/d5DhOX)
EDIT: I think it can be seen from here: http://bit.ly/bnaCkc Haha, I'm peeing in my Järvenpääntie's.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 08, 2010, 09:43:17 PM
Important message for us Sibelians: Finland is now on Google Street View.
Sibeliustalo/Sibelius Hall (http://bit.ly/96Rf0P)
Ainola (the house) must be here somewhere (http://bit.ly/d5DhOX)
EDIT: I think it can be seen from here: http://bit.ly/bnaCkc Haha, I'm peeing in my Järvenpääntie's.
Nice! Looks like a whole other world...
So, since I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
Quote from: Greg on February 13, 2010, 06:37:09 PM
Nice! Looks like a whole other world...
So, since I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
Have you tried Tapiola? See if you can find Karajan or Maazel.
Sarge
Quote from: Greg on February 13, 2010, 06:37:09 PMI've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
I thought the same as Sarge, Greg--start with
Tapiola. (Can't recommend Karajan, however.) Keep at it and you'll eventually find that most of the symphonic poems (
Pohjola's Daughter, Luonnotar, En Saga, etc.) and symphonies 5, 6, 3, 1, and even 2 are also great--and so is most of the incidental music (i.e.
Pelleas & Melisande) and the violin concerto and much else, as well!
I listened to it this morning- had listened to it several times before, but it's probably been a couple years since my last listen, so I didn't remember a note of it.
So, upon listening, my opinion turned out very good in a deceptive way- I didn't feel like, "WHHHOOOOOOOOOAAA!!!!!! THIS IS AMAZING! BEST THING EVER! EXACTLY WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR!!!!" Instead, I felt like, "hmmm... nice... interesting... sounds good..." etc. which might not sound very favorable, but it's best to remember that practically all of my favorite music started off this way. Then, I just have the feeling that it would be nice to keep on listening whenever I want to, and it grows on me.
Just wondering... anyone else ever notice having first impressions which might be a little TOO favorable, and then the enthusiasm fizzles out over time? :D
Quote from: Greg on February 14, 2010, 05:24:48 PMJust wondering... anyone else ever notice having first impressions which might be a little TOO favorable, and then the enthusiasm fizzles out over time? :D
Yes, but that doesn't say anything. Everything happened. Bad became good. Good became bad. Bad stayed bad and good stayed good. Tapiola, it's a lot about the mood and the 1000 incarnations of the main theme. It'll probably grow on you; least I can say it works for many people :) For me, the Blomstedt SFSO is the one and only.
Easier and devastating: You want to get the Wood Nymph now! It's such a forgotten work I cannot understand why. Once again I read a sibelius book of a music professor, again the Wood nymph is not mentioned. Crazy.
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too! But the discs can be difficult to to get outside Japan.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(Europe only) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 15, 2010, 08:28:03 AM
Yes, but that doesn't say anything. Everything happened. Bad became good. Good became bad. Bad stayed bad and good stayed good. Tapiola, it's a lot about the mood and the 1000 incarnations of the main theme. It'll probably grow on you; least I can say it works for many people :) For me, the Blomstedt SFSO is the one and only.
Easier and devastating: You want to get the Wood Nymph now! It's such a forgotten work I cannot understand why. Once again I read a sibelius book of a music professor, again the Wood nymph is not mentioned. Crazy.
I'll check that one out. 8)
Quote from: Greg on February 13, 2010, 06:37:09 PM
So, since I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
At first, when I only knew Symphonies 2, 5 and 7, it seemed a lot to me as if the earlier symphonies were just preparations for the Seventh, that 7 unifies various ideas from the earlier ones in a Great way. Now, though I definitely still notice ways in which 7 condenses and unifies the previous six, I've fallen in love with ... well, all but No. 4. So maybe you shouldn't look to me for advice. ;D I do definitely see similarities between 4 and Tapiola for you to explore.
Quote from: Brian on February 15, 2010, 02:12:17 PM
At first, when I only knew Symphonies 2, 5 and 7, it seemed a lot to me as if the earlier symphonies were just preparations for the Seventh, that 7 unifies various ideas from the earlier ones in a Great way. Now, though I definitely still notice ways in which 7 condenses and unifies the previous six, I've fallen in love with ... well, all but No. 4. So maybe you shouldn't look to me for advice. ;D I do definitely see similarities between 4 and Tapiola for you to explore.
I think 4 is the only Sibelius symphony that does not come together for me. Oddly, it gets less and less convincing as I get more familiar with it. 3 keeps getting better and better. Tapiola, is a piece that only works in the right performance (for me). Karajan's circa 1982 recording on DG is the most convincing for me (particularly the apparent blizzard scene).
Quote from: Scarpia on February 15, 2010, 02:21:08 PM
I think 4 is the only Sibelius symphony that does not come together for me. [...]Tapiola, is a piece that only works in the right performance (for me).
Too bad. Both are at the summit of the repertoire, for me and many others who appreciate them. I had the pleasure of hearing Berglund's recording of the 4th with the COE just last night.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 15, 2010, 08:28:03 AMYou want to get the Wood Nymph now! It's such a forgotten work I cannot understand why.
Perhaps because it's an early work that doesn't begin to compare with his mature style? Too much of it sounds like the Karelia pageant muzak crossed with
Nightride & Sunrise--interesting for its proto-minimalist style, perhaps, but otherwise mostly dismissible. Sibelius himself seems to have dismissed it, as he never revised it into a coherent whole, as he did with some of his youthful works, nor did he publish it.
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
I have Berglund's on EMI (Helsinki) - got it for $30 - have heard the First (good), Second (good), Fifth (VERY good), Sixth (extraordinary).
I have also heard some from the Segerstam (Ondine) - Third (my preferred Third!), Fifth (slow opening, too fast in the final coda, great in between), Seventh (my preferred Seventh!), and the coupled Violin Concerto (pretty terrible, sadly).
And some from Vanska - Second (finale not as superexciting as I'd like, the rest is good), Fourth (though I'm not a fan of the symphony, this is a great recording), Fifth (VERY good).
Sanderling (Berlin Classics, Brilliant) has a miracle of a Sixth Symphony.
~~~~~~
DavidRoss - Karelia, pageant muzak? But it makes me happy :(
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
I have Vanska and it is nice to have it as an alternative but it is not my favorite by far. The Maazel/Pittsburgh is my choice overall (I prefer it to the earlier Maazel/VPO). There is also a nice set with the SFO.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HY4XKGH1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
There's also the Jarvi. I got it because I loved his recordings of the tone poems, haven't listened to the symphonies yet but I am optimistic.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Thanks for those suggestions, I forgot about the Blomstedt/SF, I had considered that one as well.
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
Thanks for those suggestions, I forgot about the Blomstedt/SF, I had considered that one as well.
Less "High voltage" than some others. But an interesting view of the music.
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
All are excellent. And so are Bernstein/NYPO and Blomstedt/SFS--my faves these days, along with Berglund's latest (with the COE).
Note: Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt are all on the leaner, cooler, more objective side, whereas Bernstein and especially Segerstam tend to warmer, bigger, more romanticized interpretations. Another in the latter category I admire is Maazel's first cycle with the WP--the set through which I first learned to appreciate and then to love Sibelius's symphonies.
If I had to choose just one from all of these as a good basic reference, it would be Blomstedt/SFS. Very good sound and orchestra play, Blomstedt's approach is neither too fat nor too thin, and better than any other I know he brings out the essentially Sibelian characteristics of the first two symphonies rather than approaching them as ersatz Tchaikovsky.
I would consider one of these. All that are not good
basic sets have been deleted.
This may include personal favorites (Barbirolli's set, for example), but with so many Sibelius sets out there that eschew introducing
an extraordinary amount of personal color while being absolutely first rate (rather than bland or boring--like either of Jaervi's sets, btw.),
there is no point in including them among recommendations for a first set. Perhaps count the Bernstein among those, actually... if I had to
reduce this list any more, I'd leave: Ashkenazy, Segerstam, Blomstedt, Sanderling.
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | | | | | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | | |
|
| | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | | | |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415dkb3WBNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | | | | | |
|
QuoteNote: Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt are all on the leaner, cooler, more objective side, whereas Bernstein and especially Segerstam tend to warmer, bigger, more romanticized interpretations.
This may be the most important dichotomy, and I tend towards the cooler more objective side. I am glad to have been told about these basic interpretative groups since I don't think I will go for Segerstam, which had previously been high on my list of choices. I never considered Bernstein, since I don't ever include his recordings among my favorites other than with his own music or other Americans.
Although I haven't heard any cycle that satisfies completely (I own 11), if I had to choose it would be Ashkenazy or Maazel/WP. Berglund/Bournemouth would be a first choice (and includes Kullervo) but it's been long oop. I love Maazel's Pittsburgh 4th and 5th. Now that the cycle is available cheaply, I've ordered it. Lookiong forward to further comparisons: Vienna vs Pittsburgh!
Sarge
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 07:58:05 AM
...I tend towards the cooler more objective side.
Well, forget everything I said :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 16, 2010, 08:04:03 AMI love Maazel's Pittsburgh 4th and 5th. Now that the cycle is available cheaply, I've ordered it.
Good decision. :D I'd say 3 and 6 are the brightest gems in that set.
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
I checked the rip I have and it too has a blemish at that exact time as well.
Thanks. I guess someone must have sneezed in the studio. >:D
In all seriousness, I don't usually mind blemishes - obviously, given how I go for 1930s recordings. But that one just lashed out at me from the creamy sound of the Vienna strings. If it's in the master, I wonder how it passed QC.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 16, 2010, 04:45:06 AMPerhaps because it's an early work that doesn't begin to compare with his mature style? Too much of it sounds like the Karelia pageant muzak crossed with Nightride & Sunrise--interesting for its proto-minimalist style, perhaps, but otherwise mostly dismissible. Sibelius himself seems to have dismissed it, as he never revised it into a coherent whole, as he did with some of his youthful works, nor did he publish it.
I enjoy the straightforward style pretty much and I think, the drama scene (starting at 16:45 on BIS) is too good not to be heard. This is how drama works :o
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PMI just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?
Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th. I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with
Tapiola. Neither has the flaw you describe.
There is a glitch audible at 1:49 on my CD, from the set.
Quote from: Franco on February 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
Berglund definitely yes, but get the early
EMI Helsinki PO set (not his later remakes) now issued on two budget priced EMI Gemini releases.......or pay more for the 8CD box and get very nice Kullervo and extra tone poems
Also as mentioned by a couple others the early
Maazel/Decca set is outstanding powerful sweeping performances with great sound. Also the Bernstein/Sony is cut from same cloth but with more Lenny exagerations, slight edge to Maazel/WP/Decca
I own the Vanska and new Segerstam/Ondine sets but not really thrilled by them, they are broader more restrained style of Sibelius performance......would not be top choices for me
If you want a cooler leaner less romantic Sibelius set the Blomstedt/Decca will fit the bill nicely
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBPAQNQQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WGP741RQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
I have the 3 disc London box and the London Jubilee incarnation: both have the pop although I really had to crank up the volume to hear it distinctly. Being an old school LP guy, that kind of thing doesn't usually bother me. I've heard worse ;D
Sarge
Sibelius in small doses, you should like it. One of my favourite pieces! "Canzonetta", from Kuolema, Op 62a. Lovely pizzicatti. Rather slow playing here. Järvi/Gothenburg plays it in 3:21.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZNwN2cD1Q8
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 17, 2010, 04:25:08 AM
Sibelius in small doses, you should like it. One of my favourite pieces! "Canzonetta", from Kuolema, Op 62a. Lovely pizzicatti.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZNwN2cD1Q8
Sounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.
Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2010, 04:27:58 AMSounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.
Oh this is deeply european; we love darkness, depression and tragedy :) I'll never understand people from Africa with all their drumming. :o
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 03:35:54 AM
Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th. I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with Tapiola. Neither has the flaw you describe.
Quote from: Drasko on February 17, 2010, 03:59:14 AM
There is a glitch audible at 1:49 on my CD, from the set.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2010, 04:18:50 AM
I have the 3 disc London box and the London Jubilee incarnation: both have the pop although I really had to crank up the volume to hear it distinctly. Being an old school LP guy, that kind of thing doesn't usually bother me. I've heard worse ;D
Sarge
Firstly, I should indeed have specified 'VPO' to begin with. I keep forgetting that he's done another cycle in Pittsburgh.
Secondly, your very useful (and most kind) observations clearly point to this being in the master, but perhaps not as intrusive when not on headphones, as was my case. I was just surprised at such an obvious blemish, in an otherwise fairly recent recording. I wouldn't think something recorded that late should 'pop' anywhere! Hence my bringing it up at all.
That said, it could be the CD transfer. Anyone have an LP? ;D
Excellent performance, otherwise. Quite 'straight', but very powerful. I'll be happy to hear more from that set.
Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 05:12:04 AM
...your very useful (and most kind) observations clearly point to this being in the master....
??? Not on either of my Decca discs.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 17, 2010, 04:18:12 AM
Berglund definitely yes, but get the early EMI Helsinki PO set (not his later remakes) now issued on two budget priced EMI Gemini releases.......or pay more for the 8CD box and get very nice Kullervo and extra tone poems
Also as mentioned by a couple others the early Maazel/Decca set is outstanding powerful sweeping performances with great sound. Also the Bernstein/Sony is cut from same cloth but with more Lenny exagerations, slight edge to Maazel/WP/Decca
I own the Vanska and new Segerstam/Ondine sets but not really thrilled by them, they are broader more restrained style of Sibelius performance......would not be top choices for me
If you want a cooler leaner less romantic Sibelius set the Blomstedt/Decca will fit the bill nicely
If you could find either of the OOP Berglund cycles, both are quite good, and the last with the COE is my favorite--but the Helsinki set is a bargain and it is quite good, even though the orchestra back then was rather ragged in comparison to the instrument Segerstam wielded 30 years later.
I and many others prefer Bernstein to Maazel--his set with the NYPO is not at all exaggerated (and the NYPO winds are to die for) but his later takes with the WP certainly are!
Vänskä is certainly on the more restrained side, but Segerstam (either with the Danes or the Finns) is far from it--much bigger and fuller and more romantic than either Bernstein/NYPO or Maazel.
Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 05:12:04 AM
That said, it could be the CD transfer. Anyone have an LP? ;D
I do, but my Thorens turntable is presently out of commission. But I'm not sure I could pick out that specific pop among the many ground in snap, crackle and pops I'm sure that record has acquired in forty years ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
With the Vienna Phil? It's not in my CD (so, not in the recording).
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 05:31:52 AM
??? Not on either of my Decca discs.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2010, 05:37:53 AM
With the Vienna Phil? It's not in my CD (so, not in the recording).
With just
David, I was assuming it might have been the equipment that made it less distinct, or some other circumstantial factor next to the slew of people who have noted the error; hence 'points to' vs. 'conclusively determines'.
But two seem unlikely to be 'noise'. Something is fishy (or 'unfishy') with certain CD printings, methinks.
(I presume
Sarge, at the very least, checked CDs directly, rather than rips - correct me if I'm wrong).
Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 07:05:11 AMWith just David, I was assuming it might have been the equipment that made it less distinct, or some other circumstantial factor next to the slew of people who have noted the error; hence 'points to' vs. 'conclusively determines'.
So little respect for me? I had thought you more observant than that.
Sigh.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 07:43:10 AM
So little respect for me? I had thought you more observant than that.
Sigh.
Respect and investigative methodology do not intermingle for me. When in doubt, I am taught to be as observant as to first question self-reported facts, especially when a plausible alternative explanation is readily available.
I've already questioned my own assertion, by seeking to confirm that the problem existed at all. Then I asserted the most likely case, after reviewing the evidence: mainly that the single contradictory observation was due to noise.
This is regardless of who made it, as long as it's directly comparable to the rest of them.
When new data became available via
Karl (
quantitatively: there were now two of you), I revised my hypothesis to account for it.
Respect does not factor in this; except, potentially, as regards my not taking your report as 'evidence from authority'. But again, that is a methodological choice, I don't use authority as evidence. I utilise it when assessing the evidence I do use, instead.
Bottom line: I did not mean to insult you. My apologies. But I did not mean to insult good practice, either. :)
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
I've just listened to my Decca Legends CD through headphones --
NO GLITCH AT 1:49 -- pop, snap, crackle or otherwise.
Quote from: Renfield on February 17, 2010, 07:58:54 AM
Respect does not factor in this; except, potentially, as regards my not taking your report as 'evidence from authority'. But again, that is a methodological choice, I don't use authority as evidence. I utilise it when assessing the evidence I do use, instead.
Bottom line: I did not mean to insult you. My apologies. But I did not mean to insult good practice, either. :)
You deceive yourself. It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness. This is not "good practice." Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice. There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.
Sigh.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 10:42:11 AM
You deceive yourself. It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness. This is not "good practice." Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice. There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.
Sigh.
Besides which, if you had not dismissed the evidence you would have spared yourself the hissy fit. ;D
Quote from: Scarpia on February 17, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Besides which, if you had not dismissed the evidence you would have spared yourself the hissy fit. ;D
Hissy fit? Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 17, 2010, 11:08:05 AM
Hissy fit? Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.
How many keyboard would I have worn out if I took issue every time someone ignored my helpful advice on a web site? ;D Although, I guess I'd be galled if someone suggested my stereo wasn't sufficiently refined to hear a loud "pop."
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
Not necessarily, a pop from hitting a scratch would not be a random error. Do you use secure mode when you rip?
Quote from: Scarpia on February 17, 2010, 11:09:53 AM
Although, I guess I'd be galled if someone suggested my stereo wasn't sufficiently refined to hear a loud "pop."
Yep. ;D
Is this the blip you hear (it occurs 8 seconds into this snip). ?? $:)
Quote from: John on February 17, 2010, 07:32:15 PM
Is this the blip you hear (it occurs 8 seconds into this snip). ?? $:)
I heard nothing at all.
Same, it was blank for me. 'dis is the bizzle:
http://www.zshare.net/audio/727103254248ad8f/
http://rapidshare.com/files/352264258/maazsib.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8DCNA7ON
(zShare will stream without requiring a DL, but might not work for all countries)
Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2010, 12:48:29 PM
Not necessarily, a pop from hitting a scratch would not be a random error. Do you use secure mode when you rip?
The thing to note is that the same 'pop' has been found by a number of people on the exact same spot.
That's why I dismissed random error. :)
David, I have already stated my point of view on this, and I am sorry it is offensive, as I will maintain it.
However, any consideration of empirical data towards establishing a conclusion is, as I am sure you know, subject to continuous revision. Basic inductive methodology, and I have deliberately avoided narrowing it down to 'scientific', dictates assessing both the effect of evidence on a possible conclusion, and the significance of of evidence against each other.
When a contradictory observation to the trend occurs, it might or might not be noise.
True, it is not a necessity to treat the sources of the self-reported observations under one label, e.g. 'agent'.
But it reduces complexity, when a model is still at a level when such complexity is not
necessarily needed, as was the case
before the evidence contradicting the 'simple' conclusion started to accumulate. It's a balancing act.
Forgive me if I chose not to go into the process of assessing the credibility of yourself as an agent, and then
Sarge, then
Lethe, and so on, simply to make a shorthand assessment of what is likely to be the case over an artifact in a classical recording.
If it does really matter so much how I integrate your opinions into models, then I shall refrain from doing so in the future. Which is a shame, as I do take account of your statements as much as Sarge's, Lethe's, and everyone else's.
And yes, that's the artifact - more like a 'click' than a 'pop' if we'll be technical: never said it was loud, just ugly! - in Lethe's samples.
Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 11:49:54 PM
Same, it was blank for me. 'dis is the bizzle:
http://www.zshare.net/audio/727103254248ad8f/
http://rapidshare.com/files/352264258/maazsib.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8DCNA7ON
(zShare will stream without requiring a DL, but might not work for all countries)
Sounds like data loss. Since numerous people report it, it could be that a damaged file was used when the CD was mastered, or there is a physical flaw in the lithographic master for the CD. I have the set at home and I'm curious to see if the glitch is there as well.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5100Gv1wLkL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WfY5DYjbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 11:06:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5100Gv1wLkL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WfY5DYjbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?
Well, there is no late EMI 7, which is my favorite of the 60's DG set. I probably prefer the EMI 5 and 6, to some extent because of dramatically better audio engineering.
Last Saturday night Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic played at Carnegie Hall, ending with the Sibelius Symphony No. 2, and as an encore, Valse Triste.
Tuesday night, Mariss Jansons and the Concertgebouw were also at Carnegie Hall, with the Sibelius Violin Concerto (with Janine Jansen) and ending with the Rachmaninov Symphony No. 2, and as an encore...Valse Triste.
I realize it's a popular encore, but still...after not having heard the piece for maybe, five years, it shows up twice in a week!
--Bruce
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:32:57 AM
Sounds like data loss. Since numerous people report it, it could be that a damaged file was used when the CD was mastered, or there is a physical flaw in the lithographic master for the CD. I have the set at home and I'm curious to see if the glitch is there as well.
The challenge to this is that David and Karl seem to not be reporting the flaw in their sets, and they are (presumably) from the same master. Unless they aren't, and Decca switched (re)masters at some point.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2010, 11:06:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5100Gv1wLkL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WfY5DYjbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?
I do feel that the EMI is better presented, sonically, and sometimes more consciously 'authoritative' in style, but I feel the DG versions generally have more atmosphere, when available. And I'm happy with less self-assured Sibelius.
In fact, my most favourite Sibelius from Karajan generally comes from the Philharmonia years. I consider his later Philharmonia 5th better than even the DG. And the 4th is not
necessarily worse: more like another angle.
Quote from: bhodges on February 18, 2010, 11:25:53 AM
I realize it's a popular encore, but still...after not having heard the piece for maybe, five years, it shows up twice in a week!
--Bruce
Ashkenazy doing the Sibelius 2nd and Nielsen Concerto with Fröst also played it, when I heard them three years ago.
It must be the 'it' encore for Sibelius. Frankly, I would approve of someone daring enough to do
Finlandia! 8)
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf. May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .
Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
It must be the 'it' encore for Sibelius. Frankly, I would approve of someone daring enough to do Finlandia! 8)
I would be delighted to witness that.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf. May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .
And I would be delighted to witness
that, as well!
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on February 18, 2010, 12:09:51 PM
And I would be delighted to witness that, as well!
Well, Bruce, I was just even whimsically considering adapting it for flute/clarinet/harpsichord . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 12:19:50 PM
Well, Bruce, I was just even whimsically considering adapting it for flute/clarinet/harpsichord . . . .
:D
--Bruce
Knowing a harpsichordist who just plain likes to play, has this effect . . . .
Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
The challenge to this is that David and Karl seem to not be reporting the flaw in their sets, and they are (presumably) from the same master. Unless they aren't, and Decca switched (re)masters at some point.
Typically these sets get manufactured in batches. When they run out a new batch is pressed, or it gets deleted from the catalog, depending on the whims of the record company execs. It could be that one batch has the problem, but not others.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 01:47:59 PM
Typically these sets get manufactured in batches. When they run out a new batch is pressed, or it gets deleted from the catalog, depending on the whims of the record company execs. It could be that one batch has the problem, but not others.
Indeed. And it would have to have been used for more than just the box, if
Sarge's report is accurate. Frustrating.
(To the extent that a minor sound artifact in one second of a whole symphony can be frustrating.)
Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 11:56:28 AMI do feel that the EMI is better presented, sonically, and sometimes more consciously 'authoritative' in style, but I feel the DG versions generally have more atmosphere, when available. And I'm happy with less self-assured Sibelius.
I prefer the EMI too. I thought there must be something wrong with me after I finally heard the DG set and thought "Is this it?" The EMI sound is just so much richer, warmer and more impactful, verily a "velvet steamroller". I like to compare the EMI S1 with Collins' old recording, for maximum contrast.
Quote from: Renfield on February 18, 2010, 01:59:25 PM
Indeed. And it would have to have been used for more than just the box, if Sarge's report is accurate.
The defect (a pop) sounds exactly the same on both my discs. The London Jubilee CD has a copyright date of 1989 (I purchased the disc then or in the early 90s) and was manufactured in the USA.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Sib14Maaz.jpg)
The box set has a date of 1998 (purchased just a few years ago) and was manufactured in Germany.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 03:00:13 AM
The defect (a pop) sounds exactly the same on both my discs. The London Jubilee CD has a copyright date of 1989 (I purchased the disc then or in the early 90s) and was manufactured in the USA.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Sib14Maaz.jpg)
The box set has a date of 1998 (purchased just a few years ago) and was manufactured in Germany.
Sarge
To add the second of my two schillings (Austrian) to this Sherlock Holmes mystery, I also have Sarge's disc and there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart than a genuine unadulterated pop. :D Adding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!
Folks, this "defect" is in no way a deterrent to enjoying this very fine performance of the great Sibelius No. 4.
However, apropos to the above discussion of Karajan's late Sibelius on EMI with the Berliners, I did find a
very obtrusive glitch on my EMI Encore disc of the Symphony No. 1. It pops up at around 3:40 of the fourth movement during a string fortissimo, sounding much like a slow ripping of duct tape -- quite disconcerting!
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
...there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart...
Yes, that's a good description ;D As I said in my first post, I had to turn up the volume beyond where I'd normally listen to hear it clearly (through a Denon CD player and Polk speakers). Renfield heard it through headphones which undoubtedly makes it more noticeable. Perhaps the ripping process exaggerates the defect too.
QuoteAdding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!
But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:02:17 AM
But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.
Sarge
That's right, no pop at 1:49. Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page. ;)
Nor any snap or crackle.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 19, 2010, 06:18:41 AM
Nor any snap or crackle.
...or otherwise. ;D
I do wonder if anyone else here has that EMI release of Karajan's Sibelius No. 1 and hears that slow ripping of duct tape at 3:40 of the finale. Believe me, it's no fly fart! >:(
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 06:18:06 AM
That's right, no pop at 1:49. Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page. ;)
Sorry, I must have read that yesterday but...senility, you know ;)
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 06:22:47 AM
I do wonder if anyone else here has that EMI release of Karajan's Sibelius No. 1 and hears that slow ripping of duct tape at 3:40 of the finale. Believe me, it's no fly fart! >:(
I don't have the EMI Encore but do have the EMI Studio version (1987, printed in Holland). Yes, there is a defect at 3:40-42, and yes, it is much louder, more intrusive than the pop on the Maazel.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:44:21 AM
I don't have the EMI Encore but do have the EMI Studio version (1987, printed in Holland). Yes, there is a defect at 3:40-42, and yes, it is much louder, more intrusive than the pop on the Maazel.
Sarge
Ah, therein lies the bigger scandal!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2010, 06:02:17 AMBut no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.
This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.
Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component. I trust those who know about such things will recognize that this equipment offers somewhat greater potential for sound fidelity than your average boombox or PC.
I heard no glitch--not even the faintest trace of a glitch. That is not to say there is no glitch there. My high frequency hearing at this stage of life is seriously compromised, falling off starting around 12.5kHz and vanishing completely by 16kHz. If this pop is an artifact occurring only at such extreme frequencies, then I would not be able to hear it. Those of you who hear the glitch should be able to tell whether it occurs only in this frequency range or not. (Note: 12kHz is approximately the 27th harmonic of A440, roughly 2 1/2 octaves higher than the highest fundamental note playable on a standard violin.)
The Decca Legends CD I have is the remastered 96kHz 24-bit "Super Digital Transfer," © 2000, manufactured by Universal Classic Group, 289 466 995-2.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 19, 2010, 07:14:26 AM
This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.
Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component. I trust those who know about such things will recognize that this equipment offers somewhat greater potential for sound fidelity than your average boombox or PC.
I heard no glitch--not even the faintest trace of a glitch. That is not to say there is no glitch there. My high frequency hearing at this stage of life is seriously compromised, falling off starting around 12.5kHz and vanishing completely by 16kHz. If this pop is an artifact occurring only at such extreme frequencies, then I would not be able to hear it. Those of you who hear the glitch should be able to tell whether it occurs only in this frequency range or not. (Note: 12kHz is approximately the 27th harmonic of A440, roughly 2 1/2 octaves higher than the highest fundamental note playable on a standard violin.)
The Decca Legends CD I have is the remastered 96kHz 24-bit "Super Digital Transfer," © 2000, manufactured by Universal Classic Group, 289 466 995-2.
I have the cycle, and the discs have the old style "London" markings so they are presumably not recent remasterings or pressings. I did hear a glitch of some sort at 1:49 (right channel primarily) and a smaller glitch in the left channel about 10 seconds earlier. Again, it sounded like data loss, rather than a legitimate noise. Not confined to particularly high frequency.
I don't think it is a physically defective disc because my CD sounded exactly the same as the rip Lethe posted. Even if there a bad spot on the lithographic master it would tend to sound different on every cd player, (every cd player has a different ability to track bad data and a different ability to fill in the gap unobtrusively). I suspect data loss in the digital master (i.e., a bad spot on the DAT tape that they were using to store the master before transfer to CD).
For my audiophile bona fides, I used a $25 CD-ROM drive in a Dell computer whose motherboard sound board was connected to a pair of $25 computer speakers, into which I plugged a 15 year old pair of Sennheiser HD340's with a broken headband. I would never consider listening to music this way, but it was perfectly adequate to hear the glitch.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 18, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf. May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .
Whilst planning a college-stage musical last year, I at one point anticipated adapting the
Valse triste for a scene where two lovers meet, using double bass, clarinet, flute and piano. The musical never happened, so I never actually did any of the work. ;D
QuoteConsequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component.
I'm envious of your Meridian - but prefer to listen with speakers. Reading this kind of comment reminds me of when I used to read and post to an espresso forum and after we'd describe our coffee making equipment someone quipped if it were possible to make a decent cup of coffee for less than $2,000.
Quote from: Franco on February 19, 2010, 10:26:56 AM
I'm envious of your Meridian - but prefer to listen with speakers.
So do I. The main system uses Gallo Reference 3.1s driven by a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated. Others had suggested this might not be up to snuff (or that I might not be up to snuff, or might simply be untrustworthy) and that cans might be required to hear the "pop"--so I gave it a shot.
Also, per Scarpia's reference, I just tried using my PC with built-in Realtek ALC1200 sound feeding my trusty 10+year old Labtec APX-4620 2.1 speakers--and then plugged in my Sennheiser HD590 cans just to be sure. Still no "pop." Even my wife, who's a few years younger and a woman to boot! --presumably still with better high frequency hearing than I
ever had--hears nothing wayward on the disc. Or maybe she's lying, too! :o
. . . [a man to reckon with] and a woman to boot.
No, don't boot that woman!
I played my copy of the Maazel this evening, and heard what I would otherwise take to be a extremely brief bit of CD noise in the proper place; but if I hadn't been listening for it, I probably would not have noticed it.
Audiophile information: GPX FM radio /alarm clock/ CD player with my very own ears :)
Quote from: Renfield on February 16, 2010, 09:55:07 PM
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?
Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?
I checked my Maazel 3CD Decca boxset, very faint click sound at 1:50.....not even worth a 2nd thought such minor a defect on my CD
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Moldyoldie on February 19, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
However, apropos to the above discussion of Karajan's late Sibelius on EMI with the Berliners, I did find a very obtrusive glitch on my EMI Encore disc of the Symphony No. 1. It pops up at around 3:40 of the fourth movement during a string fortissimo, sounding much like a slow ripping of duct tape -- quite disconcerting!
I also hear this defect, a slight background buzz from 3:40 fades out to 3:45......although more noticeable than the Maazel 4th defect above still pretty minor in my book, still should have been be edited out if possible
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K669V8XTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
[Pasted from WAYLT]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31K4JQR318L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Sibelius: Symphony No. 5*
Nielsen: Pan and Syrinx; Symphony No. 4 "The Inextinguishable"
Philharmonia Orchestra*
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Simon Rattle, cond.
EMI
The young Simon Rattle of pre-knighthood was seemingly the cat's meow among British music critics throughout the '80s, a sensitive and often dynamic conductor whose recordings endeavored toward new benchmarks in much of the basic early modern repertoire. Here from 1982 (the CD is a re-release from 1993) is Rattle's initial foray into recording Sibelius, the popular Symphony No. 5, and it became the most talked about recording of the work since Karajan's in the '60s. Here ends the requisite dispensable history lesson.
Rattle and the Philharmonia deliver a well-prepared and wonderfully understated interpretation that forces one to re-think this popular symphony in terms which are mostly extra-musical; i.e., cerebrally, as if inside the head of a dual-faced Janus consisting of the young conductor and the dourly disposed composer himself, only looking at each other instead of oppositely! Unlike Esa-Pekka Salonen's outright depressing recording with the same orchestra from a few years later, Rattle brings his own youthful intellect and optimism to bear on this fine music while effectively harnessing its more overtly dynamic attributes -- it's this latter consideration which may dissuade the novice listener and rebuff the seasoned one. A few listens, however, have brought me around. I've become particularly taken by the wonderful play (and interplay) of the woodwinds heard throughout, as well as the purposely blatty brass which evoke the large fowl flying overhead in the Sibelian realm. The big build in the coda to the first movement, one of the most thrilling moments in the entire repertoire for this listener, is rendered in a controlled manner and culminates not with a bang, not with a whimper, but merely as the end of the first part of a lengthier musical journey. The pianissimo strings in the finale are on the very threshold of audibility (even through headphones!), in itself an ear-catching technical feat, but it still remains temporally and emotionally consistent with this well-played, well-articulated, and sensitive performance. In my opinion, Bernstein and Karajan are the most effective in pulling out all the stops in all the right places in Sibelius No. 5 -- Rattle/Philharmonia is the antithesis, one I can now readily advocate as a fine alternative. I've read where Rattle's subsequent Sibelius No. 5 recording, part of his complete cycle with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, is appreciably different -- I've yet to hear it.
The Nielsen recordings here date from '85 during Rattle's prodigious stint with the Birmingham orchestra. Pan and Syrinx is a brief buffer between the main attractions --it's both evocative and powerful, especially the brooding cello and marvelous brass crescendo in the middle. In my limited experience with it, this is the most effective and entertaining performance I've heard.
Rattle's rendition of the Symphony No. 4 "Inextinguishable" invites a special scrutiny among those who love this work. I've read one critic describe the performance as "fussy", I suppose in reference to Rattle's tendency to deliberately fawn over certain details in sacrifice of momentum. As evidenced here, however, there's certainly much to love and fawn over. It's true that Rattle takes the middle two movements of this seamless symphony at a pace that elicits a great deal of both loving detail and charm. Where charm exists and flourishes, however, there's always a most effective countervailing aggression that follows -- this performance never wallows in sweetness and light. The culminating, all-consuming tympani battle in the final movement is brought to bear with resolute meaning and results in an equally powerful victory, putatively of Man's capacity for creative good over those forces which would usurp it. To my ears, Rattle's judgments and the orchestra's responses are much more effective than the likes of Karajan and Barbirolli in their likewise expansive and deliberative readings. Instead of "rattling" on, I'll conclude by saying that this lucid performance, as manifested by the young conductor's understanding of Nielsen's multi-fold wartime expression, is worth the "fuss"!
Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 09:10:04 AM
[Pasted from WAYLT]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31K4JQR318L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:
Gawd but I hate that recording! Or did when I first got it years ago. The dullest 5th since Davis/Boston. But perhaps I'll feel differently these days...especially since I was pleasantly surprised by Rattie's CBSO Sibelius, not one of my top choices but certainly respectable. Guess I'll make a cuppa and settle down for a mid-morning break with it. 8)
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 09:19:28 AM
Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:
Gawd but I hate that recording! Or did when I first got it years ago. The dullest 5th since Davis/Boston. But perhaps I'll feel differently these days...especially since I was pleasantly surprised by Rattie's CBSO Sibelius, not one of my top choices but certainly respectable. Guess I'll make a cuppa and settle down for a mid-morning break with it. 8)
Yeah, it's often a quandary as to where to post things, so I figure cover the bases. Have you heard the Salonen/Philharmonia No. 5? That's the one I can feel no love for.
Okay, I gave it a shot, and once again was flabbergasted by it. To me it is dull, lifeless, mushy, soft, and lackluster, almost completely devoid of energy and commitment, as if the entire orchestra is just going through the motions--and barely at that! Every entrance is spongy, the horns are distant, the timpani almost non-existent, the strings wimpy, and the winds often sound as if they're phoning it in. There's no attack, no edginess, no disquieting agitation in buzzing strings and questioning winds and braying horns, no power, no majesty, no sense of impending inevitability. Any other recording (at least among the 20 or so I've heard) is substantially better, even Salonen. Try Bernstein/NYPO, Maazel/WP, or any of Berglund's recordings to hear the difference--or Blomstedt/SFS, Rozhdestvensky, Sakari, Vänskä, or either of Segerstam's will do as well.
On the other hand, I do like the Nielsen Pan & Syrinx on the disc. ;D
edit: also posted on the WALYT thread.
I very much surprised myself when looking through my Sibelius discs and discovering that I did not have the Sixth Symphony and had probably never heard it! Most of my Sibelius is Karajan or Jarvi.
I just got hold of the Berglund EMI cycle with the Helsinki Phil. I was listening to the Sixth, enjoying it and then suddenly...it stopped.
Recently I had read that increasingly Sibelius eschewed the classical symphonic model, the Seventh is compressed into a single movement. But can any here tell me what Sibelius was doing with the shape of the Sixth? It sounded as though he decided not to go for a big finish, or to indicate that an end was nigh.
Obviously I can 'look it up', but thought it would be good to ask here to see what folks thought.
Mike
If it "just stopped," Mike, then you might have a defective disc. There should be a passionate, yearning extended climax in the strings, followed by the winds and strings gathering themselves and then just fading out, as if turning to face the great unknown. To me it's consistent with the disturbingly unexpected endings of all his symphonies from the 4th on.
Oh well, mystery solved and problem discovered. I have had a look at the timings of that movement and it is shown as 11.12, but stops at an opportune 2 mins 34 seconds short! Perhaps I am not as daft as I thought.
I still have the packaging.
Mike
Curiosity piqued, I dug out my copy of that recording (a 1996 edition) and listened. It ends at 11:12, following the pause indicated by the final fermata placed after the last note.
Love that cycle, by the way. And the 5th is great, let down only by the slightly weak and ragged brass of the HPO 20 years before Segerstam recorded his cycle with the orchestra--no such deficiency with that one!
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 12:54:38 PM
Oh well, mystery solved and problem discovered. I have had a look at the timings of that movement and it is shown as 11.12, but stops at an opportune 2 mins 34 seconds short! Perhaps I am not as daft as I thought.
I still have the packaging.
Mike
Check the disc, maybe there's a piece of schmutz.
I tried it again, can't see anything wrong. Well that confirms that the timing is not wrongly printed and on the disc the track shows up on the player as being 11.12; but gets off the bus before that last stop. I don't recall ever having a disc do that and especially odd as the ending I have is not a sudden juddering halt.
I might try it on another machine before I send it back.
Mike
Quote from: Scarpia on March 17, 2010, 01:13:09 PM
Check the disc, maybe there's a piece of schmutz.
Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem,
Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 01:18:22 PM
Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem, Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.
;D
BTW: Wow! Thanks, Mike, for calling attention to Berglund's HPO 6th. I hadn't heard this one for awhile, so started at the beginning after checking the end of the last track. It's terrific!
My pleasue, though I can hardly claim credit. I am now on headphones back on No 5.
I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.
At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:28:02 PM
I am now on headphones back on No 5.
I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.
At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.
Mike
Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 12:05:30 PM
Okay, I gave it a shot, and once again was flabbergasted by it. To me it is dull, lifeless, mushy, soft, and lackluster, almost completely devoid of energy and commitment, as if the entire orchestra is just going through the motions--and barely at that! Every entrance is spongy, the horns are distant, the timpani almost non-existent, the strings wimpy, and the winds often sound as if they're phoning it in. There's no attack, no edginess, no disquieting agitation in buzzing strings and questioning winds and braying horns, no power, no majesty, no sense of impending inevitability. Any other recording (at least among the 20 or so I've heard) is substantially better, even Salonen.
;D :D ;D David, you actually made me laugh out loud. I too own many versions (18) and I love Rattle's Fifths (own both the CBSO and Philh actually). There must be something
seriously wrong with your ears...or mine ;) I'm too lazy, and tired, now to explain why I like it so I'll let Gramophone have a few words here (this review written in 1984):
"Simon Rattle's account of the Fifth Symphony has been greeted with wide acclaim and has also been showered with awards. Its merits have been detailed at some length in these columns and elsewhere, and a further hearing in the CD format serves to reaffirm the strength of its claims on the allegiance of Sibelians. Quite simply it is the most impressive and satisfying account of the Symphony to have appeared since the Bernstein (CBS 61806, 8/77—nla) and Karajan accounts of the mid-1960s (DG) in a field that has always been highly competitive."
Of course that proves nothing since we all know British critics worship at The Church of Saint Simon ;) I'll try to get back to this topic tomorrow.
Sarge
Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 01:51:56 PM
Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.
I don't agree with here. I hate the way Karajan rushes the chords.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 01:58:54 PM
I don't agree with here. I hate the way Karajan rushes the chords.
Sarge
I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable. As in Karajan's
entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:28:02 PM
My pleasue, though I can hardly claim credit. I am now on headphones back on No 5.
I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.
At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.
Mike
I can imagine that it would work better in concert, since it would be apparent to the audience that the conductor is not finished conducting and that something more is going to happen. I first heard the piece on CD in Jarvi's BIS recording, and I recall I was trotting up to the player in anticipation of ejecting the disc when an isolated chord suddenly blared from the speakers, then some time later, another, and another. At least Karajan's old 60's recording has tape hiss between the chords to tip you off that it ain't over yet.
Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 02:20:12 PM
I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable. As in Karajan's entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.
We had a surprisingly lengthy discussion regarding this very subject recently: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11930.msg293793.html#msg293793
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?
I've been listening to it seriously for the first time. It's like Bruckner's String Quintet, the only mature chamber piece by a composer known for his orchestral work, and as such offers a fascinating X-ray-like view into the way he structures things when he doesn't have the resources of a full orchestra. The Sibelius style is so distinctive that I'd guess it was him even if I didn't know it.
My version is the one by the Oslo String Quartet on CPO, coupled with another fascinating "name" quartet, Berg's Lyric Suite.
Quote from: Velimir on March 18, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?
Absolutely, it's a gem. Along with Grieg's string quartet.
Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.
Take that baby to e-Bay, Mike!
Too late, Junius...to late, Too late!
Mike
Quote from: Velimir on March 18, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?
Yes. Still, I think he understood where his greatest gifts lay. Given the legacy, I'm glad he chose to concentrate his efforts on orchestral music. 8)
Thanks for the reminder. I haven't heard this piece for a while and it might be especially interesting after hearing Haydn's opus 20 for the past couple of days. Think I'll pop in the New Helsinki Quartet's recording right now.
addendum: As I listened to the New Helsinki's restrained, reflective performance, I was reminded of how unusually introspective this work was at the time--and after. The title he gave it,
Intimate Voices, may offer a key to richer appreciation of this under-appreciated masterpiece. Written in 1908-09, between the Third and Fourth Symphonies, it is the first formal expression of the turning inward wrought by confrontation with his own mortality.
Sibelius's early works were big and bold, full of the brash extroversion of youth and the era's infatuation with Romantic expressiveness. Following the success of his first two symphonies, early tone poems like
Finlandia, and the 1905 revision of his violin concerto, Sibelius had already begun turning toward the formal concerns that would subsequently inform what he called his "absolute" music. This preoccupation with form is first seen in his "neo-classical" Third Symphony of 1907. He later described it in the famous meeting that same year with Mahler, during which Sibelius expressed his interest in achieving a lean, pure style built on the internal logical cohesiveness among all of a work's formal elements. The next year he was diagnosed with cancer and a tumor was removed from his throat.
Voces Intimae followed.
Perhaps the title and the work describe his own internal voices during this pivotal time in his life. To me it also suggests a clear determination, reflected in this and his subsequent work, to heed his own muses and to follow his own path as a composer, regardless of the opinions of critics (the Third had been a flop) and regardless of the fashionable trends in Paris and Vienna. Instead of giving them the brightly colored cocktails they expected, he would offer the cool, clear spring water that nourished his own soul.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 18, 2010, 07:19:35 AM
addendum: As I listened to the New Helsinki's restrained, reflective performance, I was reminded of how unusually introspective this work was at the time--and after. The title he gave it, Intimate Voices, may offer a key to richer appreciation of this under-appreciated masterpiece. Written in 1908-09, between the Third and Fourth Symphonies, it is the first formal expression of the turning inward wrought by confrontation with his own mortality.
It stands out in a couple of ways. First, it has 5 movements, which makes it different from all of the symphonies. It also makes use of the arch form that Bartok liked to use (2 allegros-2 scherzos-1 slow movement).
Also, the slow movement is unusually long and complex for Sibelius. One can hear it pointing forward to the Largo of the 4th Symphony.
Aside from his symphonies, Sibelius' output is still strong and certainly demanding of attention. Kullervo is such a powerful work. Lemminkainen Suite is a beautiful work that I return to quite often. Tapiola, of course, is mesmerizing in its scope and vision. The Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter, En Saga, and the Violin Concerto are especially fine. I haven't heard a piece of music by Sibelius that I didn't enjoy in some way or another.
Someone here suggested Colin Davis' recordings of the Sibelius symphonies with the Boston Symphony on Philips. Well, I think I only have two discs of the Boston symphony in my entire collection, but I decided to try it, and listened to the Symphony No 7 today. There was a lot to like about it. The "perfume" of the opening was wonderfully done, those aggregations of dissonant notes from all parts of the orchestra that magically resolve. Wonderful. However, though Colin did a fine job, I can't help but feel that the BSO let him down. The brass, in particular, tended to sound very shrill whenever they were called upon to play with power. They just don't match the sound production of the truly first rate ensembles.
Quote from: Scarpia on August 04, 2010, 09:45:36 PM
Someone here suggested Colin Davis' recordings of the Sibelius symphonies with the Boston Symphony on Philips. Well, I think I only have two discs of the Boston symphony in my entire collection, but I decided to try it, and listened to the Symphony No 7 today. There was a lot to like about it. The "perfume" of the opening was wonderfully done, those aggregations of dissonant notes from all parts of the orchestra that magically resolve. Wonderful. However, though Colin did a fine job, I can't help but feel that the BSO let him down. The brass, in particular, tended to sound very shrill whenever they were called upon to play with power. They just don't match the sound production of the truly first rate ensembles.
I've never been a fan of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. The string section always disappoints me for that orchestra.
Colin Davis' best Sibelius cycle, in my opinion, was his LSO Live cycle. Here he has gained a lot of wisdom and even more personal insight into this music plus he had the great London Symphony at his command.
I'm not that enthralled with Davis' Sibelius anyway. I think too often he lacks the kind of power these symphonies need. He does better in the more introspective moments of the music, but I think he falls short on the climaxes.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 04, 2010, 09:58:06 PM
I'm not that enthralled with Davis' Sibelius anyway. I think too often he lacks the kind of power these symphonies need. He does better in the more introspective moments of the music, but I think he falls short on the climaxes.
You betcha. In the LSO Live cycle, the very last chord of No 2 sputters and fades - a hugely underwhelming ending, especially compared to something like Barbirolli/RPO, which feels like entering heaven. I haven't listened to 1 or 3 from that cycle, but 6 is good, if a bit speedy, and the Seventh is definitely one of my favorite recordings.
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?
These are the ones under consideration:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ceP1BUVHL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M3XT8QFYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VKN1VCeBL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bMpCHX4UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Top left says "The Orchestral Songs" - is this really all of them? There are arrangements on some other discs (I imagine they're orchestrations) - are any of these as good? I'm also wondering whether the box set (bottom right) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o
Quote from: Guido on August 11, 2010, 05:10:17 PM
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?
These are the ones under consideration:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M3XT8QFYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bMpCHX4UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I'm wondering whether the box set (the last one) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o)
A correction: Sibelius composed very little "unnecessary guff."
That said, if you're collecting BIS's Sibelius Editions, then that would be a very noteworthy set. The Ondine recording with Segerstam also looks quite tempting as I might even pick it up at some point.
I own a huge chunk of the BIS Sibelius recordings (a la The Essential Sibelius - 15-CD set), so I won't be picking up any more Sibelius BIS recordings anytime soon or unless something new comes out that looks interesting to me.
Quote from: Guido on August 11, 2010, 05:10:17 PM
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?
Top left says "The Orchestral Songs" - is this really all of them? There are arrangements on some other discs (I imagine they're orchestrations) - are any of these as good? I'm also wondering whether the box set (bottom right) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
Hey, Guido--you're in for a treat no matter which you choose. I have the three single disc albums and about half of the recordings included in the BIS compendium, the complete contents of which are listed here: http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/PDF/BIS-CD-1906-08_contents.pdf
My favorite is the Isokoski/Segerstam disc. This was Gramophone's CD of the year when it was released, for good reason. It includes several songs not usually heard in this context, as they were originally written for voice and piano only, then later orchestrated by Sibelius or his son-in-law, Jussi Jalas. I've split opinions regarding the other two single CDs. I like the CBSO under Oramo very much and admire Mattila, but her performances tend toward the theatrical, and nearly half the songs are by Grieg, not Sibelius, though they are very fine as well. The sound on the Panula disc is a touch strident, but Häggander is quite good--and so is Hynninen, but I really prefer the songs when performed by a soprano. The recordings on that disc are included in the BIS box, along with Vänskä's
Kullervo, worthwhile if you don't already own a good recording of it.
"M forever" and I swapped views about most of these discs a couple of years back, either here or on the old archived forum. If you're really interested in more detail, you could search for those posts.
I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them--each would serve as a fine introduction to Sibelius's vocal music, which is far less well known than deserved.
Edited to correct strangely incomplete sentence.
Thanks for the tips guys - I opted for the Isokoski for the time being - I'll think about expanding later. She has such a beautiful voice, though I am attracted to Mattila's more dramatic and as you say theatrical voice too - maybe that disc will have to follow one day!
Tangentially, I have the Isokoski disc of Hindemith's Das Marienleben (the revised version), and it is fabulous.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2010, 04:36:09 AM
Tangentially, I have the Isokoski disc of Hindemith's Das Marienleben (the revised version), and it is fabulous.
And on the same tangent, her Strauss
Four Last Songs is fine also, with sumptuous playing from the BRSO under Janowski.
Let us know how you like the disc, Guido!
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 12, 2010, 05:40:53 AM
And on the same tangent, her Strauss Four Last Songs is fine also, with sumptuous playing from the BRSO under Janowski.
Let us know how you like the disc, Guido!
I will. I have that disc also, it's very fine (although I think I prefer her performance of some of the other songs to the Vier Letzte. Has
Morgen! ever been so rapt and understated?)
Just ordered this for £5.00 - Erik Tuxen conducting Sibelius Symphony No 5 (Dutton) with the String Quartet. Looks like a really interesting release. Recordings from 1950-52. I like the atmosphere of these historical recordings:
What do people think of the string quartet? I can't decide if it's merely very good and beautiful, or truly profound and one of the great quartets...
Darn, I haven't heard it yet, Guido.
Lenny landed first today (before Rattle), so he's in the queue . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2010, 04:25:38 AM
Sibelius
Symphony № 2 in D, Opus 43 (1902-03)
Wiener Philharmoniker
Lenny
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pUBjpJgGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Leonard Bernstein – Sibelius
Complete recordings on Deutsche Grammophon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WGDXK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0001WGDXK)
|
Dave, I owe you hearty thanks for bringing me, by gradual stages, to acquisition of this box-let. First, some years ago, I "let you talk me into" picking up the Lenny/NY Phil Sibelius set, which I like very well. And that, over time, set my mind in a place where I could entertain the idea of revisiting these Wiener Philharmoniker recordings . . . which for years I had mentally "binned." In exactly the same way, I am enjoying these as entirely as I do his recording of the Leningrad with the CSO — if I were conducting it, it's not an approach which would be anywhere near my radar . . . it seems it ought to be a disaster . . . but he (& they) carry it off splendidly. You can't knock success, and shouldn't knock musical success! ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2010, 04:43:17 AM
Dave, I owe you hearty thanks for bringing me, by gradual stages, to acquisition of this box-let. First, some years ago, I "let you talk me into" picking up the Lenny/NY Phil Sibelius set, which I like very well. And that, over time, set my mind in a place where I could entertain the idea of revisiting these Wiener Philharmoniker recordings . . . which for years I had mentally "binned." In exactly the same way, I am enjoying these as entirely as I do his recording of the Leningrad with the CSO — if I were conducting it, it's not an approach which would be anywhere near my radar . . . it seems it ought to be a disaster . . . but he (& they) carry it off splendidly. You can't knock success, and shouldn't knock musical success! ; )
I posted this in the listening thread several days ago:
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 21, 2010, 06:21:51 AM
Karl, I'm waiting for your reaction to Lenny's Sibelius 2, the 18 minute long Andante ;D That's the movement that really divides opinions. In the yea column: Me, M, David Ross. In any case, I think you'll agree the Vienna brass are simply awesome.
Now with you, we're the Gang of Four ;D
Sarge
I did note that post, Sarge, and I did not mean to seem to neglect it!
Karl --I'm glad you like it, but must give credit to Sarge and Mike for likewise prompting me to give it a shot. ;D
Gladly!
Next month Naxos will inaugurate a new cycle of the Sibelius symphonies, with Pietari Inkinen and the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. The first volume contains symphonies 1 and 3.
(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572305.gif)
I learn that the cover art photograph was in fact taken in Canada, not Scandinavia. That seems like an unnecessary bit of outsourcing.
Hmm. The Ennzed orchestra certainly did a great job with the Copland Third.
Inkinen/NZSO's previous Sibelius recordings have been favorably reviewed and can be heard via Naxos streaming. Sakari/Iceland's Sibelius cycle is still in the Naxos catalog and is very good so ought we presume the new one's character will differ from the rough-hewn directness of the previous one...?
So I'm browsing through a selection of 'Bargains' on Amazon, and I stumble across this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rAufKxosL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
2 CDs for £6 (with free postage), and containing just the four symphonies that set me on fire, and omitting the three symphonies that put me to sleep. Looks like this pack was made for me. So I thought it was worth a shot at this price, and put the order in. However, reviews of these Jansons/Oslo recordings are hard to come by (tho' the few I've found are positive).
Anyone know these? Am I heading for delight, or disappointment?
Link to the bargain purchase here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1)
I have a different 2-disc set, w/2, 3, &5. Can't say it's one of my faves. Jansons gets a big, lush sound from his orchestra, but he tends toward extremes of tempo and what to me are ill-considered rubato and dynamic accents that are just too interventionist and make the music sound more like disjointed patchwork than organic growth, a sequence of romantic gestures rather than a unified whole built of related cells.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2010, 12:22:30 PM
I have a different 2-disc set, w/2, 3, &5. Can't say it's one of my faves. Jansons gets a big, lush sound from his orchestra, but he tends toward extremes of tempo and what to me are ill-considered rubato and dynamic accents that are just too interventionist and make the music sound more like disjointed patchwork than organic growth, a sequence of romantic gestures rather than a unified whole built of related cells.
Doesn't sound too good. But I still haven't yet found a Sibelius interpreter that makes me feel 'yes, finally, this is
it', so I'll continue to travel hopefully. It may be that I could be happy with a succession of disjointed romantic gestures, provided there were enough snow and ice and pine forests and cold winds and stuff.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 10, 2010, 12:30:49 PM
Doesn't sound too good. But I still haven't yet found a Sibelius interpreter that makes me feel 'yes, finally, this is it', so I'll continue to travel hopefully. It may be that I could be happy with a succession of disjointed romantic gestures, provided there were enough snow and ice and pine forests and cold winds and stuff.
Whom do you have in these symphonies, Alan?
Alan, just curious if you've heard any of Ashkenazy's with the Philharmonia, and whether that might do the trick. While I haven't heard the entire cycle, I have heard maybe half of the symphonies (along with some of the tone poems), and like the results enormously, especially in some of the more seldom-performed symphonies, e.g., Nos. 1, 4, and 7.
And just saw DavidRoss's query...
--Bruce
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2010, 12:36:42 PM
Whom do you have in these symphonies, Alan?
Sakari, Barbirolli, and Vanska. (I gave away my RCA set of Davis/LSO, as a total washout). And I get along with all of them fine, but feel that the ultimate Sibelius experience is still out there somewhere.
I'm thinking of getting the Rozhdestvensky set when I get back in funds after paying for all my Wagner extravagances. MDT have an offer on that box for the next few weeks.
[@Bruce]Haven't heard Ashkenazy so far, Bruce. Thanks for the suggestion.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 10, 2010, 12:49:48 PM
Sakari, Barbirolli, and Vanska. (I gave away my RCA set of Davis/LSO, as a total washout). And I get along with all of them fine, but feel that the ultimate Sibelius experience is still out there somewhere.
This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 10, 2010, 11:34:10 AM
So I'm browsing through a selection of 'Bargains' on Amazon, and I stumble across this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rAufKxosL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
2 CDs for £6 (with free postage), and containing just the four symphonies that set me on fire, and omitting the three symphonies that put me to sleep. Looks like this pack was made for me. So I thought it was worth a shot at this price, and put the order in. However, reviews of these Jansons/Oslo recordings are hard to come by (tho' the few I've found are positive).
Anyone know these? Am I heading for delight, or disappointment?
Link to the bargain purchase here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1)
I have that 2-for.
Neither disappointment nor delight. Some parts good, some parts merely okay. If the price was higher, you might have regretted the purchase; as it is, your quest for the perfect Sibelius will continue.
Does anyone have the set of symphonies recorded with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra? It was re-released on a buget label but is now infuriatingly expensive and EMI don't seem to want to re-issue it themselves (in competition with the above set, reissued a zillion times already).
If so, i'd be super grateful for a copy of the discs. I'd gladly pay materials and shipping costs and I promise i'm not the copyright police. :)
some reasonable prices are being asked for the set at these places:
amazon.co.uk (link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
amazon.de (link (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
Quote from: jlaurson on September 14, 2010, 01:02:15 PM
some reasonable prices are being asked for the set at these places:
amazon.co.uk (link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
amazon.de (link (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
Yeah I saw those but oh man your definition of reasonable must be different than mine! I'm still sore from forking out £30 for the Blomstedt 1st and 7th disc...which then came out as a ultra-bargain box set a few months later. :o
Quote from: Benji on September 13, 2010, 08:55:11 AM
Does anyone have the set of symphonies recorded with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra? It was re-released on a buget label but is now infuriatingly expensive and EMI don't seem to want to re-issue it themselves (in competition with the above set, reissued a zillion times already).
If so, i'd be super grateful for a copy of the discs. I'd gladly pay materials and shipping costs and I promise i'm not the copyright police. :)
I have it on LPs. Love it; my favorite cycle actually, and I too want the CDs. Since you seem to be passing it up, I just might hit the buy button on that offer from Amazon DE. Just don't tell Mrs. Rock ;) (Thanks for the links, Jens.)
Sarge
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2010, 12:22:30 PM
Jansons gets a big, lush sound from his orchestra, but he tends toward extremes of tempo and what to me are ill-considered rubato and dynamic accents that are just too interventionist and make the music sound more like disjointed patchwork than organic growth, a sequence of romantic gestures rather than a unified whole built of related cells.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rAufKxosL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
It arrived this morning and I listened to the first symphony. I wouldn't have been able to articulate my response as finely as you did here, Dave, but I think yours is a very telling description of it. It really does come over as a series of orchestral cameos, of flourishes that are attractive enough in themselves but don't seem quite to stick together somehow.
So I think
kishnevi was right:
QuoteNeither disappointment nor delight. Some parts good, some parts merely okay.
My quest for the ultimate Sibelian experiece will indeed continue.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 15, 2010, 10:52:04 AM
My quest for the ultimate Sibelian experiece will indeed continue.
Considering the cycles you own (or have discarded), you already have a very broad range of styles and interpretations (from Sakari to Barbirolli). I'm really at a loss as what to suggest next. In the symphonies that don't put you to sleep, I've found recordings that satisfy me completely (or nearly so):
1 - Maazel/Vienna
2 - Szell/Concertgebouw or Bernstein/Vienna (interpretive extremes)
3 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
5 - Rattle or Berglund/Bournemouth
Of course that won't help
you. You'd get a different list from everyone.
About the Sixth: have you heard Davis/Boston? He's so fast I guarantee you won't have time to nod off ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2010, 06:15:32 AM
About the Sixth: have you heard Davis/Boston? He's so fast I guarantee you won't have time to nod off ;D
Sarge
Oh how I despise that performance...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2010, 06:15:32 AM
Considering the cycles you own (or have discarded), you already have a very broad range of styles and interpretations (from Sakari to Barbirolli). I'm really at a loss as what to suggest next. In the symphonies that don't put you to sleep, I've found recordings that satisfy me completely (or nearly so):
1 - Maazel/Vienna
2 - Szell/Concertgebouw or Bernstein/Vienna (interpretive extremes)
3 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
5 - Rattle or Berglund/Bournemouth
Of course that won't help you. You'd get a different list from everyone.
I may be beyond help, Sarge. I'm chasing two impossible memories:
(1) The first time I heard a recording of Sibelius 1 at the age of about 16 (I don't know who the conductor was, and didn't know it mattered), there was something about the transition from the clarinet solo to the entry of the strings that blew my head off. I want that again, however unrealistic the desire may be.
(2) Shortly afterwards I bought a mono LP of Beecham conducting it - on Philips I think - and I played the grooves flat on that. Loved it. Today, I'd find the sound quality an obstacle.
As a result, some weird imperfectly remembered synthesised version - a sort of composite of those two - has acquired mythic status for me over the decades, and even though it doesn't exist, yet still it's the carrot that still pulls the donkey onwards.
So you see, I think there is no destination; just a road to be travelled hopefully.
QuoteAbout the Sixth: have you heard Davis/Boston? He's so fast I guarantee you won't have time to nod off
No, I've given up on 4, 6 and 7. I've tried them so many times over the years, really really wanting to get into them; but they leave me feeling bad-tempered and dissatisfied. I just can't hear any proper tunes. And what I want from Sibelius, what I most value him for, is a musical metaphor for clear distant skies, blue ice, wind-driven snow, shivering firs, and big,
big typically Sibelian
tunes.
Quote from: Benji on September 17, 2010, 06:40:45 AM
Oh how I despise that performance...
Funny how different we listeners are. I didn't get the Sixth at all until I heard that Davis recording. Suddenly, the entire work just snapped into focus. I love the way his speeds make the symphony feel Mozartean...and love the way the movements seem to end quite abrubtly, almost before they've begun...and always with a pleasant shock.
Sarge
Quote from: Elgarian on September 17, 2010, 06:53:24 AM
I may be beyond help, Sarge. I'm chasing two impossible memories:
(1) The first time I heard a recording of Sibelius 1 at the age of about 16 (I don't know who the conductor was, and didn't know it mattered), there was something about the transition from the clarinet solo to the entry of the strings that blew my head off. I want that again, however unrealistic the desire may be.
(2) Shortly afterwards I bought a mono LP of Beecham conducting it - on Philips I think - and I played the grooves flat on that. Loved it. Today, I'd find the sound quality an obstacle.
As a result, some weird imperfectly remembered synthesised version - a sort of composite of those two - has acquired mythic status for me over the decades, and even though it doesn't exist, yet still it's the carrot that still pulls the donkey onwards.
Clearly you need to hire an orchestra and conduct your own recording.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2010, 06:59:10 AM
Funny how different we listeners are. I didn't get the Sixth at all until I heard that Davis recording. Suddenly, the entire work just snapped into focus. I love the way his speeds make the symphony feel Mozartean...and love the way the movements seem to end quite abrubtly, almost before they've begun...and always with a pleasant shock.
And you love the way the brass section sounds like a high school band on a Monday morning at 8am?
Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 06:59:51 AM
Clearly you need to hire an orchestra and conduct your own recording.
Good idea. Could you be in charge of the emergency evacuation arrangements?
Quote from: Elgarian on September 17, 2010, 06:53:24 AM
As a result, some weird imperfectly remembered synthesised version - a sort of composite of those two - has acquired mythic status for me over the decades, and even though it doesn't exist, yet still it's the carrot that still pulls the donkey onwards.
The upside is: it's giving the donkey employment ; )
Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 07:00:49 AM
And you love the way the brass section sounds like a high school band on a Monday morning at 8am?
I clearly have a higher opinion of the Boston Symphony than you do. The brass is at least the equal of a high school band at midday.
Sarge
I'm crying here.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2010, 07:09:35 AM
I clearly have a higher opinion of the Boston Symphony than you do. The brass is at least the equal of a high school band at midday.
I have heard recordings where they play beautifully, but not in that one (which I've heard just recently). It truly struck me as the worst brass playing I have ever heard on a classical music recording.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2010, 07:13:09 AM
I'm crying here.
As much as I hate to agree with our friend Scarpia here, I do find the Boston brass a little crude in a few spots of that Davis Sibelius cycle...although not in the Sixth. I'm sure it's the fault of the recording team though.
Sarge
Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2010, 07:15:01 AM
I have heard recordings where they play beautifully, but not in that one (which I've heard just recently). It truly struck me as the worst brass playing I have ever heard on a classical music recording.
Ah. To that I cannot speak; I haven't heard the Davis/BSO Sibelius. (We crossed, Sarge!)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2010, 07:21:24 AM
Ah. To that I cannot speak; I haven't heard the Davis/BSO Sibelius.
If you want to maintain a high opinion of the BSO, I'd advise you don't hear it.
Ho capito.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2010, 12:57:05 PM
This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
I dallied with the idea of just buying two single CDs with symphonies 1, 3, 5 and 7, but they're by no means cheap, and for not much more one can get the whole box - so I plumped for the box.
Afterwards, I listened to the same movement performed by Vanska/Lahti, and by comparison found that I felt even more uneasy with it, the same sort of uneasiness as I've felt ever since I bought it. There are passages of tremendous power that are breathtaking, but he has a tendency to rush certain key bits. So the theme that enters just after the end of the clarinet solo - the one that goes
deyyy, dah dit, diddely-doh; dumdidee, dah dit, diddely-doh - seems squeezed too tight at the ends. The '
diddely-dohs' are played too fast, as though he's in a rush to get to the end of the phrase. Each time he does that, I find myself losing the thread because I'm wanting him to go back and do that bit again properly. Can't get past this somehow.
Anyway, Vanska's had his chance at winning my Perfect Sibelian award, and although he gets a 'Highly commended', he's blown it if the truth be told. Onward, to Segerstam, in high hopes.
♫ This is my Quest . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2010, 05:47:26 AM
♫ This is my Quest . . . .
You can laugh, Henning. But even when I find the perfect Sibelius CD, I still have to find my way to Mount Doom and chuck it in. It's not easy being on a Quest, y'know.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 18, 2010, 05:43:54 AM
I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
I haven't heard that in quite awhile. Think I'll play it after Ludwig van's op.110 is finished.
Sarge
Quote from: Elgarian on September 18, 2010, 05:50:23 AM
You can laugh, Henning. But even when I find the perfect Sibelius CD, I still have to find my way to Mount Doom and chuck it in. It's not easy being on a Quest, y'know.
Not much laughter here, and such as there is, is affectionate, lad.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 18, 2010, 05:43:54 AM
I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
Segerstam's 1 is so, so, so exciting. I also like Mark Elder's with Halle nearly as much (also on NML). You will need to listen to Segerstam's 3, too: the gorgeous recorded sound and Leif's genius for balance make the opening minute or two open up like a sunrise, because you hear every single instrument, every section, making its terraced entrance, like a staircase of musical layers rising up to the light. As you can tell, I love that recording. I also love Segerstam's Seventh to pieces, because he treats it as heroically and forcefully as the others, but it makes me very sad to see that you've given up on that symphony. :( I too don't understand the Fourth, but Six teases me endlessly like a beautiful but very moody girl, and Seven is the symphony I love most of all... no Five is... no wait maybe Three... or Six...
That's the thing about Sibelius symphonies. Picking a number-one favorite is like picking a favorite child.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2010, 06:00:51 AM
Not much laughter here, and such as there is, is affectionate, lad.
Oh, I know.
When I find the perfect Sibelius CD, you can join me on the trip to Mount Doom if you like. [
Thinks: that'll cheer him up.]
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2010, 06:29:10 AM
You will need to listen to Segerstam's 3, too: the gorgeous recorded sound and Leif's genius for balance make the opening minute or two open up like a sunrise, because you hear every single instrument, every section, making its terraced entrance, like a staircase of musical layers rising up to the light. As you can tell, I love that recording.
I shall do so with the greatest pleasure - just as soon as PrestoClassical get the box to me.
QuoteI also love Segerstam's Seventh to pieces, because he treats it as heroically and forcefully as the others, but it makes me very sad to see that you've given up on that symphony. :( I too don't understand the Fourth, but Six teases me endlessly like a beautiful but very moody girl, and Seven is the symphony I love most of all... no Five is... no wait maybe Three... or Six...
Well, I must never say never, because I've been listening to Vanska doing the 4th for the last half hour, and getting a lot more out of the experience than I usually do. So really I haven't given up on any of them. I just have a tendency to pretend to tear up my comics every now and then.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 18, 2010, 06:44:36 AM
Oh, I know.
When I find the perfect Sibelius CD, you can join me on the trip to Mount Doom if you like. [Thinks: that'll cheer him up.]
If I can wear iron mittens.
Hey! I just thought up a name for a band!
I agree with you guys about Segerstam's First. But I'm listening, for the first time, to Maazel's Pittsburgh First and, after hearing the first movement twice through, I'm prepared to declare it my new favorite :D It's not as powerful or muscular, and marginally less exciting, but more poignant in places (and slower by a minute in both the first and last movements which gives Maazel room for a bit of interventionist phrasing). As I wrote in the listening thead, after the clarinet solo, the strings steal in so quietly; it's as if they didn't wish to disturb the sad, mysterious atmosphere created by the opening. Segerstam's violins are jarring at that point...which is the point, I guess. Unfortunately, Maazel rushes the two final notes of the first movement. I prefer them stretched out like Segerstam does it.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2010, 07:22:25 AM
I agree with you guys about Segerstam's First. But I'm listening, for the first time, to Maazel's Pittsburgh First and, after hearing the first movement twice through, I'm prepared to declare it my new favorite :D It's not as powerful or muscular, and marginally less exciting, but more poignant in places (and slower by a minute in both the first and last movements which gives Maazel room for a bit of interventionist phrasing). As I wrote in the listening thead, after the clarinet solo, the strings steal in so quietly; it's as if they didn't wish to disturb the sad, mysterious atmosphere created by the opening. Segerstam's violins are jarring at that point...which is the point, I guess. Unfortunately, Maazel rushes the two final notes of the first movement. I prefer them stretched out like Segerstam does it.
Maazel/Pittsburgh is a magnificent cycle! I have to declare it my favorite overall (among 6 or so that I have).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/BlakeIwant.jpg)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2010, 07:22:25 AM
Segerstam's violins are jarring at that point...which is the point, I guess.
Lightning from a clear sky.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 18, 2010, 07:25:57 AM
Maazel/Pittsburgh is a magnificent cycle!
I'm
beginning to believe you...finally ;)
Sarge
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 18, 2010, 07:17:39 AM
If I can wear iron mittens.
Always. Sensible handwear is
important.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 18, 2010, 07:31:38 AM
Lightning from a clear sky.
Exactly. And a good example of why owning just one version simply won't do. Too many fascinating variables; too many interpretive choices. I want to hear them all :)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2010, 07:32:35 AM
I'm beginning to believe you...finally ;)
Sarge
The pinnacles of M/P are 3 and 6.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 18, 2010, 07:34:48 AM
The pinnacles of M/P are 3 and 6.
The Sixth I've heard and liked but I still prefer Davis's faster ride (despite the Boston brass ;) ) But it's an interesting alternative and one that will probably grow on me. The Third I'm looking forward to but I want Mrs. Rock to be there during the first listen. That's her favorite Sibelius symphony and one of the few classical works she's very picky about; must be played just so. Ashkenazy is her current favorite.
Sarge
Quote from: Scarpia on September 18, 2010, 07:25:57 AM
Maazel/Pittsburgh is a magnificent cycle! I have to declare it my favorite overall (among 6 or so that I have).
I've only heard Maazel/Pittsburgh's 2 and 6... I found the 2 eccentric, but then I like my 2 really fast and slimmed-down; the Maazel Pittsburgh 6, on the other hand, is my favorite, as I wrote here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg436264.html#msg436264). It confuses me that Sarge prefers faster here!
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2010, 10:46:10 AM
I've only heard Maazel/Pittsburgh's 2 and 6... I found the 2 eccentric, but then I like my 2 really fast and slimmed-down; the Maazel Pittsburgh 6, on the other hand, is my favorite, as I wrote here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg436264.html#msg436264). It confuses me that Sarge prefers faster here!
And it confuses me you like slower here. We're usually just the opposite :D
Sarge
P.S. Are you in London now?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2010, 07:42:23 AM
The Sixth I've heard and liked but I still prefer Davis's faster ride
The 6th should be a fast ride. It has the interesting distinction of being one of the few 4-mvt. symphonies without a slow movement. Some conductors try to make the 2nd mvt. into a de facto slow movement, even though it's marked
allegretto.
Me, I'm still reveling in Rozhdestvensky's set that I got recently. The 6th is one of the highlights. Above all, he gets the finale right, which often sounds kind of disjointed due to the various tempo changes.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2010, 10:49:09 AM
And it confuses me you like slower here. We're usually just the opposite :D
Sarge
P.S. Are you in London now?
Yes, I am! It's been a really interesting (read: crazy) few days. Just had some wonderful Persian kebabs near Queensway... mm!
On a side note, I'm not sure I like the Sixth too slow. Berglund's 11-minute finale drives me right up the wall (EMI/Helsinki). Colin Davis is pretty darn snappy in his new LSO Live and I like that one. But I do like the first movement to have space to relax and stretch out, and I like the beginning and ending of the symphony to be like sighs, the first a sigh of contentment after coming in from the cold, the last a sigh of loneliness or despair. Maazel gets it just right for me - crunchy on the inside, chewy on the outside. Or something like that. ;D
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2010, 01:22:35 PM
Yes, I am! It's been a really interesting (read: crazy) few days. Just had some wonderful Persian kebabs near Queensway... mm!
On a side note, I'm not sure I like the Sixth too slow. Berglund's 11-minute finale drives me right up the wall (EMI/Helsinki). Colin Davis is pretty darn snappy in his new LSO Live and I like that one. But I do like the first movement to have space to relax and stretch out, and I like the beginning and ending of the symphony to be like sighs, the first a sigh of contentment after coming in from the cold, the last a sigh of loneliness or despair. Maazel gets it just right for me - crunchy on the inside, chewy on the outside. Or something like that. ;D
For a Sibelius 6 finale with a lot of wonderful sensuality, there is Karajan's later recording on EMI with the Berlin Philharmonic. Perhaps not truly idiomatic Sibelius, but wonderful in its way.
Quote from: Velimir on September 18, 2010, 11:40:44 AM
Me, I'm still reveling in Rozhdestvensky's set that I got recently. The 6th is one of the highlights. Above all, he gets the finale right, which often sounds kind of disjointed due to the various tempo changes.
I bought the Rozh box seven weeks ago and haven't even opened it yet. This gives me incentive 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 19, 2010, 07:05:01 AM
I bought the Rozh box seven weeks ago and haven't even opened it yet. This gives me incentive 8)
Sarge
I'm very tempted by this set - a further attraction is Gallen-Kallela's painting of 'Lake Keitele' on the front cover - my favourite painting (and possible the most recent - 1904) in the National Gallery, London.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2010, 01:08:44 PM
I'm very tempted by this set - a further attraction is Gallen-Kallela's painting of 'Lake Keitele' on the front cover - my favourite painting (and possible the most recent - 1904) in the National Gallery, London.
Yeah,it's gorgeous...one of, I think, three versions he did of that scene:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/Gallen-Kallela_lake.jpg)
Sarge
Yuck--mine's an old Russian set that's about as pretty as yesterday's Pravda after it's been used to line the canary's cage.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 20, 2010, 06:26:31 PM
Yuck--mine's an old Russian set that's about as pretty as yesterday's Pravda after it's been used to line the canary's cage.
Melodiya really made it look good this time. In addition to the awesome painting, the CDs are made to look like old LPs, with fake grooves even. The essay by Rozh is interesting as a conductor's POV, tho' he doesn't discuss the symphonies individually.
The box says "first time on CD" but I think that's wrong - it was earlier on some label called "Venezia." Is that a pirate label?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2010, 01:13:08 PM
Yeah,it's gorgeous...one of, I think, three versions he did of that scene:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/Gallen-Kallela_lake.jpg)
Sarge
The wake trail in the picture is apparently the path of the river god - great mythological stuff.
Still waiting for Presto to send me the Segerstam/Helsinki set, and am very much in a Sibelius frame of mind right now, and having read these comments above, and having read the Gramophone review ... I've decided to order this (special offer at MDT):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CCJbrND2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
And while I'm on a Sibelian roll - does anyone out there have the earlier set with Segerstam and the Danish guys, on Brilliant? It's so cheap that it seems very tempting, unless the performances really aren't up to much.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 21, 2010, 07:47:08 AM
And while I'm on a Sibelian roll - does anyone out there have the earlier set with Segerstam and the Danish guys, on Brilliant? It's so cheap that it seems very tempting, unless the performances really aren't up to much.
Wow, $13 for a new 4 CD set (amazon marketplace seller). I had one disc from the original Chandos release and don't recall enjoying it much, except for the cover art.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61VRRt5ukZL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Velimir on September 20, 2010, 09:54:42 PM
Melodiya really made it look good this time. In addition to the awesome painting, the CDs are made to look like old LPs, with fake grooves even. The essay by Rozh is interesting as a conductor's POV, tho' he doesn't discuss the symphonies individually.
The box says "first time on CD" but I think that's wrong - it was earlier on some label called "Venezia." Is that a pirate label?
Nope. It's a commercial label from MOCKBA called V
EHEция.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 21, 2010, 07:47:08 AM
And while I'm on a Sibelian roll - does anyone out there have the earlier set with Segerstam and the Danish guys, on Brilliant? It's so cheap that it seems very tempting, unless the performances really aren't up to much.
I have the 5th & 7th--liked the 5th, not the 7th. Conception similar to his HPO set, a bit on the grand side. BRO had the whole set for about $12 a couple of years back. I considered it but passed.
(http://www.euro-cig.com/gal_images/20060405111947.jpg)
Quote from: MN Dave on September 21, 2010, 11:29:37 AM
(http://www.euro-cig.com/gal_images/20060405111947.jpg)
Did Sibelius supply the Marlboro theme song?
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 21, 2010, 11:25:24 AM
I have the 5th & 7th--liked the 5th, not the 7th. Conception similar to his HPO set, a bit on the grand side. BRO had the whole set for about $12 a couple of years back. I considered it but passed.
Thanks. Sounds like when my Helsinki set arrives, I probably have the best of Segerstam, then.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2010, 12:57:05 PM
This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
OK Dave, where are you? This box arrived this morning and I've listened to the 1st and 3rd symphonies so far.
The 1st is, surely, the finest (that is, closest approach to my dream version) I've ever heard. There's no shortage of what I want (ice, cold air, northern skies, windblown pines), and there's also a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. The sheer weight of the sweeping climaxes is staggering. I very much doubt that I'm going to hear a closer approach to what I seem to have been searching for than this.
The 3rd is very different - not so wild, the sense of control rather tighter. The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. I wondered how he'd tackle that somewhat 'classical' feeling that attaches itself to this symphony in places, and it seems to me that he's bang up to the job. When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. Not
wild, in this case - it's the dynamism of the approaching steam train rather than the leaping tiger - but my goodness, the hair on the neck is set a-prickling and no mistake.
This box is unbelievable, and I'm wondering at this point just how much dust my other Sibelius symphonies are going to gather from here on. Thanks Dave, for the recommendation - not the first recommendation of this that I've seen, but the most effective in terms of the end result.
Alan,
That post made me so, so very happy. Your description of those performances corresponds exactly with my own feelings - reading the post was one of those experiences which made me say to myself, "Hey, I feel exactly those same things too - I just didn't have the words." Especially these words...
Quote from: Elgarian on September 23, 2010, 01:19:29 PM[No 1] a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. [No 3] The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. ...When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. ... the dynamism of the approaching steam train
Yes, yes, yes! Yes! That's it! That's what I hear! I'm so glad you hear it too!
And as much as I dread to bring this up so quickly... it sounds to me like you are ready to give No 7 another try.
Approach it (with Segerstam, of course) from exactly the same direction you approach Nos 1 and 3. In this conductor's world, the First, Third, and Seventh are all on the same road; No 7 is just a few blocks down, in a new neighborhood. Actually, it may even be closer than that. The Seventh is the familiar territory of the old symphonies made harder to see, perhaps by the blanket of the night: by the light of the stars, one can sense the shapes of the previous symphonies out there somewhere, in the dark. The fleet heroism and characterful winds of No 3; the slowly mounting despair of No 1; the sleek beauty of No 6's outer edges; the spiritual triumph of No 5. All of them are passed by on Sibelius' little nighttime walk through his own past.
But...
You should of course judge for yourself! 8)
A side note: No 7 was my first Sibelius symphony (!), and initially I found it spectacularly boring; then I found it spiritual in a monastic sort of way, like fasting or praying all day in a cold cell, thanks to Petri Sakari on Naxos; now, thanks to Segerstam (and also Colin Davis on LSO Live), I hear it as a summary of all that came before, a return to Sibelius' old haunts, a nearly-defeated exorcism of all the demons.
As a side note, I am on another of my major Sibelius swings. Approximately three times a year, I go through a "Sibelius phase" where I listen to him almost compulsively, in fact almost exclusively, for a few weeks, then abruptly stop. For the rest of the year, his music goes almost completely unplayed by me. It lies dormant for months; this summer it was very nearly dead. I tried listening a few times and rejected the music each time, not in the mood, not ready, just not in Sibelius' frame of mind. From the outside, his is a strange mind, and one I dread entering. I try to put off the "phase" as long as possible. But that just makes it more intense when it takes me over.
To give you an idea of the intensity of my Sibelius phases, and the droughts in between, I glanced at my listening log.
In the last 12 days, I've listened to Sibelius 15 times. 12 of those listens were in the last 4 days, including the Violin Concerto and three symphonies on 21 September.
In the 120 days before this stretch, I listened to Sibelius 17 times, and that includes a MusicWeb assignment of "Finnish Orchestral Favorites."
Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2010, 01:51:40 PM
Yes, yes, yes! Yes! That's it! That's what I hear! I'm so glad you hear it too!
This is what makes a forum like this so valuable. There is no one in my circle of friends (some of whom are great music-lovers) and acquaintances who'd have understood what I was talking about.
QuoteAnd as much as I dread to bring this up so quickly... it sounds to me like you are ready to give No 7 another try.
You're right, Brian, it's certainly time, especially since I'm on a Sibelian roll, and since I'm willing to sell my soul to this Segerstam guy. I found myself listening to a bit of the 4th, actually, and thought 'hey, this is starting to be something I might be able to get into, at last' - but I'd already been thinking I'd have another go at the 7th and your comments will reinforce that determination. I'll carry your words (' the 7th is just a few blocks down') in there with me.
And likewise I will carry your words with me into the heart of the Fourth; I listened to the Fourth just a few days ago, for only the second time this year, and it is still a foreign land to me. It's like being trapped inside the belly of a terrifying beast, with a little torch that just lets me see the victims around me. If you'll head down the "street" of No 7, I'll try to make sense of the savage No 4. :)
Hey, Alan--I'm glad you're getting something out of the music. And I'm glad that Brian's plugging away at the fourth. It's well worth it.
Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.
Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2010, 02:12:49 PM
As a side note, I am on another of my major Sibelius swings. Approximately three times a year, I go through a "Sibelius phase" where I listen to him almost compulsively, in fact almost exclusively, for a few weeks, then abruptly stop. For the rest of the year, his music goes almost completely unplayed by me.
I experience similar swings myself, not just with Sibelius but with everything. My listening progresses in a series of quantum jumps, or something like Kuhn's paradigm shifts, but there's no predicting how long the gaps will be between shifts. If I get started on a Handel phase, then only Handel will do, and if in the meantime my wife sold off my entire collection of Elgar I might not notice for weeks. Or months.
It seems to be the way I'm wired up, so I just go with the flow. It's been years since I last listened to Sibelius. I tried him again some months ago but it generated just a damp squib rather than a real revival. This time it looks more promising, and while I'm sure Segerstam has a big part to play in that, it's interesting that I've had a big revival of Wagner in the meantime. My brain must be in search of more 'Northern-ness'.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2010, 08:10:56 PM
Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.
Noted - thanks!
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2010, 08:10:56 PM
Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.
Seconded! I love that disc - it is my favourite recording of
Tapiola. The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for
Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite
En Saga (it's a corker!).
Quote from: Benji on September 24, 2010, 02:11:56 AM
Seconded! I love that disc - it is my favourite recording of Tapiola. The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).
Actually I was listening to Segerstam's earlier Danish RSO recording of Tapiola this week (Chandos, with Symphony No 3) and I thought that it was the favourite of my multiple copies of Tapiola (my favourite work by Sibelius). The Helsinki version is also terrific
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2010, 03:02:45 AM
Actually I was listening to Segerstam's earlier Danish RSO recording of Tapiola this week (Chandos, with Symphony No 3) and I thought that it was the favourite of my multiple copies of Tapiola (my favourite work by Sibelius). The Helsinki version is also terrific
The earlier Segerstam set used to be very cheap, but no longer! (it does seem classical discs on Amazon marketplace have increased an awful lot recently, even used. Anyone else noticed this?)
I'll see if they have it on eMusic to download...
Quote from: Benji on September 24, 2010, 03:40:36 AM
The earlier Segerstam set used to be very cheap, but no longer! (it does seem classical discs on Amazon marketplace have increased an awful lot recently, even used. Anyone else noticed this?)
You call $14 for a Sibelius symphony cycle expensive?
Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2010, 04:55:58 AM
Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )
:'(
It still hurts...
(Also the Chandos Segerstam set is £30 on the UK site here - I didn't check Amazon US. At any rate an eMusic subscription is significantly cheaper and more convenient)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 24, 2010, 04:55:58 AM
Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )
Cross-post from something I wrote in another thread:
Amazon.co.uk has "1 new copy" of the Bernstein NYPO Sibelius cycle for £999.00. The seller's name is, wonderfully, "pridestuff."
Quote from: Benji on September 24, 2010, 05:03:48 AM
:'(
It still hurts...
(Also the Chandos Segerstam set is £30 on the UK site here - I didn't check Amazon US. At any rate an eMusic subscription is significantly cheaper and more convenient)
The Chandos cycle is long deleted from the catalog and may be considered a rare item. The same recordings have been issued by Brilliant classics, and those are quite cheap.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 24, 2010, 06:11:57 AM
The Chandos cycle is long deleted from the catalog and may be considered a rare item. The same recordings have been issued by Brilliant classics, and those are quite cheap.
Ohhhhhh yeah, so it has. I see it now - £10 - that's much more like it!
Thanks! :)
Quote from: Benji on September 24, 2010, 02:11:56 AM
The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).
Ditto! Best
En Saga by far and my favorite
Lemminkäinen. Wish we had more Sibelius from Franck.
Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2010, 02:17:03 PM
If you'll head down the "street" of No 7, I'll try to make sense of the savage No 4. :)
Oh Brian, I am struggling here. I listened to it once this morning, and as always, despite approaching it with optimism, I made almost nothing of it. So this evening I thought: "This is silly. How can a 20 minute piece of music, by a composer I admire so much, be so resistant that even after something approaching 20 listenings over a lifetime, it still defeats me?" So I tried again, and this time I listened in a way that I've never done before, with a piece of paper in front of me, jotting down notes as I listened to see if something coherent would emerge. I abandoned the experiment after 10 minutes, because I couldn't think of anything to write. Since I did make these notes, I'll reproduce them here, but they merely mark out my hopeless failure as a listener.
00.00 Slow sequence of rising notes
00.50 Light tune with pastoral flavour
01.20 Getting more serious. Growing in urgency.
02.00 Simple 4-note pattern begins
02.30 Hymn-like tune begins on strings. Intensity building up.
03.55 Strange fade-out?
04.00 More powerful again
04.20 And slackens off. Seems just like doodling.
04.45 Getting really good. Going somewhere at last!
05.00 Big climax. Really good.
05.30 Powerful strings
05.45 Drum! What's this?
06.00 6-note pattern on brass
06.20 More doodling
06.40 Building up again. But comes to nought
07.00 Folksy bit. Is this new movement? Doodling.
07.30 Big noise. Fades off.
08.00 Fast woodwind passages. Or is
this start of next movement?
08.45 Where's this going?
09.00 Zithery stuff. Is this angry?
10.00 Give up.
I just can't hear any coherence here apart from sounds of a vaguely Sibelian character making fleeting statements that evaporate as soon as they're made. I can't detect any connection between any given passage and any other passage. I just don't know what to do. I think I don't have whatever perceptive equipment is needed to get anything out of this.
Gosh Brian, I hope you had better luck with the 4th. This has certainly taken the wind out of
my sails!
Do you know, Alan, now I can hear the Seventh your way! Well, that's disingenuous: I'm not actually listening to it but playing it through in my head. It's not disjointed, but it is - darn, what's the word - well, I'll just start the sentence over. It's only got one theme, and that one theme appears only three and a half times, and only as a sort of bookend to the sections of the piece. And the sections... those flutes at 00.50, they come back at the very end, but that's it; the ascending figure of the beginning only really matters in that it hints at the fact that the big tune is also ascending; the hymn never comes back; you didn't even get to the most contained part, the very clearly defined scherzo. Hmmm.
The Fourth...
I can "get" and even admire the first four minutes of the first movement. It presages Gorecki or Metamorphosen, this insistent, depressive harping on the same thing over and over, building to a climax. But then the movement just sort of wanders. The scherzo wanders, even. The slow movement is as shapeless and tuneless and "home"-less as the high modernists. The finale wanders but "I get it": he's trying to make some sense of the first three movements, but he just can't.
I do think I've made a bit of headway. First, I recognize some continuities: solo cello bits all around, for instance. But then there's the solo oboe in the last minute of the piece, that has nothing to do with anything else.
The headway is this. Seems to me that previous composers all expressed confusion and desolation and frustration by taking a nice minor-key tune, developing it, and using it to wring the life out of you. Tchaikovsky Six. Sibelius here is making you feel all those adjectives, by writing music that is confused and frustrated, and confusing and frustrating. It's like Lost in Translation, where Sofia Coppola tries to convey how bored Bill Murray is by making the whole movie really boring.
So maybe the headway is that I'm starting to figure out what the strategy is. It's a broken jigsaw puzzle of a symphony. But then, I didn't like Lost in Translation either.
Quote from: Brian on September 24, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
the hymn never comes back;
That's a shame - I knew it didn't, and thought it was a shame. Seems like a waste of a really good hymn.
Quoteyou didn't even get to the most contained part, the very clearly defined scherzo. Hmmm.
I did this morning, of course - but this evening I stopped my note-writing before I got there.
QuoteThe Fourth...
I do think I've made a bit of headway. First, I recognize some continuities: solo cello bits all around, for instance. But then there's the solo oboe in the last minute of the piece, that has nothing to do with anything else.
The headway is this. Seems to me that previous composers all expressed confusion and desolation and frustration by taking a nice minor-key tune, developing it, and using it to wring the life out of you. Tchaikovsky Six. Sibelius here is making you feel all those adjectives, by writing music that is confused and frustrated, and confusing and frustrating. It's like Lost in Translation, where Sofia Coppola tries to convey how bored Bill Murray is by making the whole movie really boring.
Believe it or not, I find it quite encouraging seeing you struggle like this! Not because I want you to struggle, but because your description makes me feel I don't need to beat myself with a stick quite so hard. And furthermore, I sympathise with you over
Lost in Translation.Anyway, I'm going to try the 4th myself, next. I can't guarantee that I'll write notes as I go along, but I will report back.
Huh, odd that two of my favorite pieces ever seem so incomprehensible to some — but that's the wonderful and often frustrating thing about perception: nobody hears the same piece.
I was talking earlier today with a conductor friend and told her I didn't really get Bruckner. She described his appeal as alike to taking part in a ritual, as in a religious rite. Now I feel ready to reapproach Bruckner's music with that in mind.
With Sibelius I hear his music as a flow. I don't question what it is he's trying to do, or why he is doing it, but merely consider myself as along for the ride. Like being on a train heading for an unknown destination, but taking time to see the sights along the way.
Quote from: Corey on September 24, 2010, 02:44:22 PM
Huh, odd that two of my favorite pieces ever seem so incomprehensible to some — but that's the wonderful and often frustrating thing about perception: nobody hears the same piece.
I was talking earlier today with a conductor friend and told her I didn't really get Bruckner. She described his appeal as alike to taking part in a ritual, as in a religious rite. Now I feel ready to reapproach Bruckner's music with that in mind.
With Sibelius I hear his music as a flow. I don't question what it is he's trying to do, or why he is doing it, but merely consider myself as along for the ride. Like being on a train heading for an unknown destination, but taking time to see the sights along the way.
That's a wonderful way to appreciate Sibelius, or any composer really.
The 4th is a difficult nut to crack - I can sympathise with Brian. It wasn't until I heard Blomstedt conduct it that it I began to 'feel' it. It is a dark and painful work, written at a time of much doubt and trepidation for the composer. If you read up on what Sibelius was going through at the time, it may help to understand the intensity of the emotion he poured into the work. I think of your journey comment, Corey, and I think of the 3rd movement in particular - there is definitely a journey of discovery in the movement, as the austere theme is introduced on the clarinet, developed and expanded in what seems an almost improvisatory way, as if Sibelius is discovering it for himself. The word 'organic' is often used to describe Sibelius's compositional method and I think this movement is a good example. The powerful climax of the movement, the final and full expansion of that seed of a theme from the beginning, seems like it aught to be a resolution, but the closing bars quickly discount that I feel.
There is an enlightening and very thorough musical analysis of the 4th here: http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_04.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_04.htm).
The 4th is my favourite of Sibelius' symphonies, though perhaps the least frequently listened to. It has a powerful effect on me, especially if my mood is sympathetic to it - a sort of musical resonance effect.
Quote from: Corey on September 24, 2010, 02:44:22 PM
With Sibelius I hear his music as a flow. I don't question what it is he's trying to do, or why he is doing it, but merely consider myself as along for the ride. Like being on a train heading for an unknown destination, but taking time to see the sights along the way.
My feelings exactly, specially for 7th. I believe Sibelius originally titled it symphonic fantasy and likened it to a river. For me it best works if you just relax and float downstream on swelling of those crescendos/decrescendos, tempo and mood changes with the recurring trombone theme as something of an anchor point. Without dwelling too much on trying to discern formal structure. And sing along, I always sing along with 7th.
Quote from: Drasko on September 25, 2010, 03:25:10 AM
My feelings exactly, specially for 7th. I believe Sibelius originally titled it symphonic fantasy and likened it to a river. For me it best works if you just relax and float downstream on swelling of those crescendos/decrescendos, tempo and mood changes with the recurring trombone theme as something of an anchor point. Without dwelling too much on trying to discern formal structure.
In one sense I think that sounds very sensible, and my perception of it as something that might be titled 'A Doodle for Orchestra' seems to fit with that. But it's described as a
symphony - and that means one is invited to approach it in a certain kind of frame of mind, looking for something structural, a sense of interconnected unity. I think if he'd actually called it an orchestral doodle, I'd have been able to listen a few times, decide it wasn't my cup of tea, and move on. But precisely because it calls itself a symphony, I assume that there really is a structure there that I'm
missing. So I'm looking for an interwoven tapestry, but only finding a sequence of bits tied together along a length of string.
But there's another troubling aspect to this. It's not just described as a symphony: it's spoken of as a triumph of economical symphonic structure - a single-movement symphony. Other composers take at least half an hour and four separate chunks, but Sibelius the symphonic wizard wraps it all up in 20 minutes without a break and we all get home early for tea. So this makes me
even more troubled that I listen and listen for some identifiable pattern, but still the tapestry eludes me, and still I hear only the sequence of doodles along the length of the string. I must emphasise that I'm perfectly happy to accept that I'm a rubbish listener, that there is an ingenious structure there; and that I'm too dim to hear it. But if it were to turn out that there's just the string of doodles after all, and that all I need do is lay back and feel the flow, then I'd feel very hard done by, after all these years of trying.
There must be some mid-ground between a Symphony and a "doodle." ;D
I find the 7th and Tapiola to be similar in their mode of construction. They are symphonic fantasies which have a definite organic structure to them which does not fit with "standard" symphonic construction. I admire both, but find that they require a certain mood (in me) to make a satisfying impression.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 25, 2010, 08:14:27 AM
But there's another troubling aspect to this. It's not just described as a symphony: it's spoken of as a triumph of economical symphonic structure - a single-movement symphony. Other composers take at least half an hour and four separate chunks, but Sibelius the symphonic wizard wraps it all up in 20 minutes without a break and we all get home early for tea. So this makes me even more troubled that I listen and listen for some identifiable pattern, but still the tapestry eludes me, and still I hear only the sequence of doodles along the length of the string. I must emphasise that I'm perfectly happy to accept that I'm a rubbish listener, that there is an ingenious structure there; and that I'm too dim to hear it. But if it were to turn out that there's just the string of doodles after all, and that all I need do is lay back and feel the flow, then I'd feel very hard done by, after all these years of trying.
I'm not sure it's just string of doodles, unity, which there is, is just not achieved traditionally by thematic development or sonata form. I'm sure someone with more musical knowledge could explain it much better than me, but here's something I dug out for starters:
QuoteThe form of the Seventh symphony is startlingly original. Since the time of Joseph Haydn, a movement in a symphony would typically be unified by an approximately constant beat and would attain variety by use of contrasting themes in different keys. Sibelius turned this scheme on its head. The Seventh symphony is unified by the key of C (every significant passage in the work is in C major or C minor), and variety is achieved by an almost constantly-changing tempo, as well as by contrasts of mode, articulation and texture.
Barnett, Andrew (2007), Sibelius
Quote from: Drasko on September 25, 2010, 08:34:28 AM
I'm not sure it's just string of doodles, unity, which there is, is just not achieved traditionally by thematic development or sonata form. I'm sure someone with more musical knowledge could explain it much better than me, but here's something I dug out for starters:
QuoteThe Seventh symphony is unified by the key of C (every significant passage in the work is in C major or C minor), and variety is achieved by an almost constantly-changing tempo, as well as by contrasts of mode, articulation and texture
I'm worried here that I'll start to sound like a nit-picking grumbler - but the truth is that I don't understand, and I never did, and I
want to. I'm not knocking the symphony itself, but expressing my concern about my perception of it.
Let's take the two parts of that quotation -
(1)
It achieves unity because everything is in the key of C? But .. but ... so does almost any pop song. Where is the great symphonic breakthrough in achieving unity by sticking to the key of C?
(2)
It achieves variety by changing tempo, mode, articulation and texture? Well yes - I don't have any trouble perceiving the
variety. But if all that the bits have in common is the key of C, then ... is it surprising that it sounds like a string of variously different doodles? Doodles in C?
Surely there must be more to it than this?
Quote from: Elgarian on September 25, 2010, 10:47:45 AM(1) It achieves unity because everything is in the key of C? But .. but ... so does almost any pop song. Where is the great symphonic breakthrough in achieving unity by sticking to the key of C?
Very little of it is literally in the key of C. The claim is that it achieves unity by returning to the key of C at key moments, notably when the big trombone theme returns.
I don't necessarily agree that the "C" thing is such a great insight. I think of the piece as a succession of moods, of associations, that make reference to common element (the trombone theme).
Quote from: Scarpia on September 25, 2010, 11:26:19 AM
I think of the piece as a succession of moods, of associations, that make reference to common element (the trombone theme).
I see that. But what makes it a
symphony?So far, it's as if someone were to claim a poetic breakthrough in sonnet form by writing a new 'economical' sonnet of 9 lines in free verse. It might be a good poem, but why would anyone call it a sonnet?
It's okay to admit that you just don't enjoy it.
Quote from: Corey on September 25, 2010, 11:56:46 AM
It's okay to admit that you just just don't enjoy it.
No, no ... surely it's clear from my posts that that isn't the issue at all?
Quote from: Elgarian on September 25, 2010, 11:55:51 AM
I see that. But what makes it a symphony?
So far, it's as if someone were to claim a poetic breakthrough in sonnet form by writing a new 'economical' sonnet of 9 lines in free verse. It might be a good poem, but why would anyone call it a sonnet?
Who gets the right to define the word "symphony?" At first it was applied to brief instrumental interludes in baroque operas, cantatas or oratorios. In early Haydn it could be anything with no singing. By the time Haydn and Mozart were done and Beethoven was starting it was a four movement affair. Then it got applied to monstrous things like Mahler's 8th. I would define it for modern purposes as an extended piece of music in which form (long range organization) and thematic development play a central role. I think Sibelius 7 qualified. Sibelius' idea was to make the "form" a flexible thing that suited the musical purpose, rather than a pre-conceived set of rules. I think he achieved that in the 7th, although it is not really a symphony by 19th century standards.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 25, 2010, 11:55:51 AM
I see that. But what makes it a symphony?
I. Introduction -
II. Theme -
III. Adagio (pastorale) -
IV. Theme, in turbulent mood -
V. Scherzo -
VI. Theme, building to climax -
VII. Introduction (reprise) and apotheosis, with reminders of theme
For me the part of the symphony which could have been "tightened up" the most is III. A lot of times that little slow movement leaves me waiting for the rest of the piece.
Does anybody know where on the forum M forever (or someone of similar bent) argued that Every Conductor Conducts the Seventh Wrong? He was referring to the very last bars, where an important violin phrase goes unheard in every extant recording because of orchestral balances. If you know where that discussion is, please let me know. Heck, maybe it's in this thread. It's important to my conception of the "tightness" of the structure of the Seventh. I am partially responsible for leaving Alan in the fog because I view the symphony as quite concise, have said so in the past, and have not explained exactly what concise elements I'm going on about.
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 12:24:03 PM
I am partially responsible for leaving Alan in the fog because I view the symphony as quite concise, have said so in the past, and have not explained exactly what concise elements I'm going on about.
At last, someone I can
blame!!!Seriously though ... thanks Brian for that sequence. Would it - bearing in mind that you are dealing with someone who seems to be wired up all wrong for this work - would it be possible for you to give a rough
timing for those sections? (This may sound like a puerile request, but I can imagine sitting here becoming traumatised about whether I'm still in IV, or have made it to V.)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 25, 2010, 12:49:21 PM
At last, someone I can blame!!!
Seriously though ... thanks Brian for that sequence. Would it - bearing in mind that you are dealing with someone who seems to be wired up all wrong for this work - would it be possible for you to give a rough timing for those sections? (This may sound like a puerile request, but I can imagine sitting here becoming traumatised about whether I'm still in IV, or have made it to V.)
I was thinking of listening to it again later tonight - this will give me something to do. 8)
I tried your notation system while listening to the Fourth yesterday, but it's just too intensive! I have to applaud you for the concentrated listening it took to write down all those notes on the exact timings of new figures; all I could muster was "Okay, we're around minute five now, I think"!
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 01:07:32 PM
I have to applaud you for the concentrated listening it took to write down all those notes on the exact timings of new figures;
You're suffering under the delusion that I knew what I was doing, Brian. Those were the jottings of a drowning man.
Seriously though .... I mentioned in an earlier post how valuable this forum can be - and I have some hopes that your proposed structure is going to help me get my bearings. Many thanks for this.
I'm afraid I've divided the work into very few sections. I added one to those listed above, though, and created a few other cues.
My own introduction to the work, and still an extremely good one, is this essay (http://inkpot.com/classical/sibsym7.html) which helps explain some of the history as well as supplying a sort of "narrative."
"It is often thought that the essence of a symphony lies in its form, but this is certainly not the case. The content is always the primary factor, while form is secondary, the music itself determining its outward form." - Sibelius
[Segerstam/Helsinki]
00.00 I. Introduction -
04.56 II. Theme -
05.42 III. Adagio (pastorale with bumps) -
08.52 [transition to IV.] -
09.07 IV. Scherzo I (without trio)
10.00 V. Theme, absent confidence but with development -
11.37 [recollections of what had gone before] -
12.00 VI. Scherzo II (with nod to hymn theme at 12.14*) -
14.21 [second 'turn' of Scherzo - development in lieu of trio - it may be useful to think of the form of Beethoven VI.iii, in which the opening material comes round three times each with different results] -
15.06 [recap of Scherzo] -
16.10 [do the downward scales presage catastrophe? Yes: Remember the upward scale of the opening]
16.38 VII. Theme, building to climax -
17.36 [the material from 5.42 again] -
18.13 [climax]** -
19.22 [next-to-last appearance of the theme] -
19.40 VIII. Introduction (reprise) and apotheosis, with reminders of theme
20.41 [listen for the first notes of the theme, played by oboe and others]
The last two notes: ascending to C. What the scale at the opening failed to do.
*or possibly not. This was the first time I'd ever heard it.
**oh god. Now I am hearing echoes the hymn in the violin writing here. Don't strain your ears, though: it took me this many years... ;D
Reading over the essay I linked to, he doesn't say what the "one motif" of the symphony is. Somebody a few posts above said it was the key of C. Not true: I think, if anything, it is the note of C. The ascending scale at the beginning fails to reach C, stopping at A flat. The hymn makes it: da-da-daaa, da-da-C-etc (although after this it avoids C resolutely). The Theme makes it: it starts off D-C. I think it also avoids C for the rest of its course. I don't have a score, just my memory playing over the piece in my head, so somebody smarter, jump in. Scherzo II makes it: da, da da! da-da-C. But its second phrase also hangs in midair on a note that doesn't resolve things. This enables the countermelody, in the violins, which does reach C at the very end (and begins much like the hymn). And, of course, there are the final chords, after the flutes reprise their little birdcall (which I think leaves out C - the birds never "land").
The reason I was wondering where some argument had once happened on GMG, is that the last two notes are actually half of the picture. Immediately before them, behind the big scary trombone/timpani wall, the violins are playing D-C: the opening notes of the Theme. What got M Forever eternally pissed off was that most conductors had the trombones cut in at the very end so loudly and distractingly, that nobody ever heard the D-C. He used to insist that the end was two matching, interlocking phrases: first the strings play D-C, then the thing we all hear them play, the very last two notes: B-C. Two ways to get home.
Taking this way beyond any accepted musicology (which actually I left days ago ;D ), I view the fixation on C, and the "quest for C" motivating so much of the musical material, as Sibelius' response to modernism. I think he deliberately picked the key to celebrate the tonal idiom and affirm his loyalty to it. He knew he was being left behind by his contemporaries, in fact he had been left behind while he was writing No 5, and with the Seventh I think he sort of defiantly spat back: look, I can write something grand and bold and daring and distinctly modern using the "classic" key of the olden days, using the classic form, using everything you think old-fashioned to fashion something new.
Of course, I also said he was expelling personal demons a few pages ago. I think a lot of crazy things.
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 03:10:30 PM
. . . I think a lot of crazy things.
That's all right; we all need material to pass through the filtration ; )Thanks for your posts, Brian . . . at some point I should have some additive contribution . . . .
@Brian
Those posts are fresh bread to a starving man.
I've printed out your list and the recommended essay, and will return to the fray with new hope. It may take a while to absorb all this, and maybe several listenings, but I'll be back with a progress report eventually. Thank you.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 17, 2010, 06:53:24 AM
No, I've given up on 4, 6 and 7. I've tried them so many times over the years, really really wanting to get into them; but they leave me feeling bad-tempered and dissatisfied. I just can't hear any proper tunes.
I'm absolutely staggered by this discussion - these three have been my favourites (most of all no.7) since I first heard them - I sort of assumed that most people approximately thought that these three were the best ones (though all are incomparably valuable). The seventh is for me one of the most satisfying listening experiences in all of music, and I remember having the rare experience when I first heard it of a masterpiece of the highest order unfurling its glowing tendrils before my eyes... the return at the end of the horns and brass where the piece seems to come back into focus in a completely unexpected and totally satisfying way is a miracle every time I hear it.
Barber of coursed partially based his beautiful first symphony on Sibelius' 7th, and wrote himself a little analysis which I'll try and dig out. I'm sorry that I can't myself be more helpful to enjoying these wonderful pieces.
Here it is - I'm not sure how much sense you might make of it, but what it appears to be doing is tracing the development of these mottos (if not quite themes).
Barber is more economical in a sense in his symphony, in that everything stems from the single opening theme - its a sort of four in one structure, the opening Allegro ma non troppo theme becoming the scherzo theme with the same note order but different rhythms. Again, the same is true of the ravishing adagio that follows, which goes straight into the passacaglia finale, with you guessed it, the same theme as the passacaglia bass line, now hugely stretched out on the cellos and basses. I love this symphony, but it's not as superlative as the Sibelius of course.
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 12:24:03 PM
Does anybody know where on the forum M forever (or someone of similar bent) argued that Every Conductor Conducts the Seventh Wrong? He was referring to the very last bars, where an important violin phrase goes unheard in every extant recording because of orchestral balances. If you know where that discussion is, please let me know.
The discussion is in the "Sibelius' tricky 7th Symphony" thread in the Great Recordings and Review section:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5210.msg126624.html#msg126624
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 02:56:19 PM
My own introduction to the work, and still an extremely good one, is this essay (http://inkpot.com/classical/sibsym7.html) which helps explain some of the history as well as supplying a sort of "narrative."
Thanks for the link, Brian. The Inkspot Sibelius Nutcase and I have something in common:
"This [Berglund/Bournemouth] is my top recommendation...of the full cycle, bar none."
Sarge
Brian, I've just listened again with your list in front of me. I've still got a long way to go, but I can already say that I got more from this one listening that all the previous 20 listenings spread over the last lord-knows-how-many years. Most particularly, this is the first time ever that I've understood the ending.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 11:19:07 AM
Brian, I've just listened again with your list in front of me. I've still got a long way to go, but I can already say that I got more from this one listening that all the previous 20 listenings spread over the last lord-knows-how-many years. Most particularly, this is the first time ever that I've understood the ending.
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.
Perhaps it was foolish to listen yet again so quickly, but in terms of the result, I think not. This time I read the essay before listening, and then listened again with your list in front of me. Blimey. Brian, you've given me a huge leg up here: I 've never come close to getting this much from this music before, and I think from here on, I might even be able to resolve some of my remaining puzzles myself on further listens, having now acquired some firm base camps, as it were. By the way, there were two or three moments when I thought I caught transient quotations from the earlier symphonies - is that just me being over-imaginative, or are they really there?
But OK, OK, for the first time I'm getting some sort of grip on the structure of this, and I can hardly express the difference it's making.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2010, 11:23:49 AM
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.
The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!
Wow! Delightful to see the interest displayed in the past couple of days. The 4th & the 7th repay the effort (as do they all), but there may be such a thing as trying too hard. For me the 4th vies with the 5th as my fave, but that's not to slight the 7th, 6th, or 3rd. Perhaps my favorite 4th is Berglund's latest, with the COE.
Notes that may be of interest on symphony 4:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_04.htm
http://www.sfsymphony.org/music/ProgramNotes.aspx?id=38634
& re. symphony 7:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm
and here's the NPR Performance Today series on Sibelius with commentary on each of the symphonies from Michael Steinberg:
http://www.npr.org/programs/pt/features/sibeliussym.html
Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2010, 11:23:49 AM
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 12:00:29 PM
The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!
I do strongly encourage you guys to read the link Sergeant Rock kindly posted above, too: especially, do read the two posts by M Forever on that page, and then if you like, the discussion on the following page between M, Eyeresist, and Jezetha. As you will see ;D , that discussion was hugely helpful to my own scaling of the mountain - it was my base camp, to use Alan's words. :)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 11:57:57 AM
Perhaps it was foolish to listen yet again so quickly, but in terms of the result, I think not. This time I read the essay before listening, and then listened again with your list in front of me. Blimey. Brian, you've given me a huge leg up here: I 've never come close to getting this much from this music before, and I think from here on, I might even be able to resolve some of my remaining puzzles myself on further listens, having now acquired some firm base camps, as it were. By the way, there were two or three moments when I thought I caught transient quotations from the earlier symphonies - is that just me being over-imaginative, or are they really there?
But OK, OK, for the first time I'm getting some sort of grip on the structure of this, and I can hardly express the difference it's making.
So so glad to read this! I definitely think there are quotations from and allusions to the earlier symphonies (and the violin concerto). Last night while writing the notes, I heard a new one, though I can't remember where. As I've mentioned, the Seventh was my first Sibelius symphony (my first Sibelius anything!), and when I heard my second Sibelius symphony - No 5 - for the first time, I spent the whole first and second movements thinking, "This sounds like notes for the Seventh. That's just a rough draft version of X moment in the Seventh, the slow movement is notes for the pastorale...[etc.]" Then the swan hymn came up and my rational brain ceased functioning entirely.
This thread's made me very happy. I feel like it's one of the best most interesting discussions I've had on GMG. Will give the Fourth a few days before trying again - aided by DavidRoss' two exceptionally helpful links.
Oh, actually the essay David posted about the Seventh is really interesting. Now I'm starting to hear that opening ascending scale and flute tune all over the symphony. :o Oooh, and the comparison to the Third Symphony is really interesting. Thanks, Dave! This just keeps getting better!
What an entirely facinating journey this is proving to be. Forgive me if I ramble too much in my attempt to make sense of it.
Today I did two new things. I read the essay at Dave's link (most interesting - let's call it Essay X); and listened to Vanska's recording instead of Segerstam's, with Essay X in front of me. The result demonstrates just what a fragile beast this is that I'm grasping, here.
First, Vanska's timings are substantially different, so Brian's sketch becomes harder to follow. Second, with the timings up the creek, I found myself frequently losing the connection between what I was reading in Essay X, and what I was hearing in the music. Now I did not panic. No sir. Because now, you see, I have my base camps. If I got into a muddle, I just waited to arrive at the next base camp to sort things out. But so often I got lost, in between the camps. I arrived at the end feeling vaguely dissatisfied; Vanska seems to be a cool customer compared to Segerstam, and while I sometimes felt that Segerstam was showing me the mysteries of the universe, Vanska seemed to be telling me a theory about them. I exaggerate, to try to express the really quite subtle differences in feeling. Incidentally, I only hear the two notes at the end. I can't hear the other two that are mentioned in the M Forever discussion.
So next time I'm going to go back to Segerstam. But my main point in this interim ramble is just to express how insecure it all feels. Do you know what this experience reminds me of? Learning how to look at Cezanne. It's not hard to 'learn' how to look at Impressionist paintings, and when we come to Cezanne many of the same techniques are there: the fragmented colour; the use of clearly visible separate brushstrokes; the feeling of an enveloppe of atmospheric character. And yet, in Cezanne all these things are used to very different purpose and if we insist on looking at him through an Impressionist lens, we get it all wrong, and feel frustrated because there's so much there with which we feel familiar. It's like that with this Sibelius 7th. It has Sibelius written all over it. It has all his characteristic touches. But he's telling the tale in a completely different way, and it's taken me all this time to realise that it's no use listening to it as if it were 'old' Sibelius, even though superficially it sounds as if I might be able to. Hence the frustration. What a great lesson to learn. Well, partly learned, anyway. I fancy this is not a short road I'm on.
For anyone who wants to take a wee break from this fascinating seriousness...
http://www.therestisnoise.com/2010/09/sibelius-jean-sibelius.html (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2010/09/sibelius-jean-sibelius.html)
*tee hee*
Oh.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 27, 2010, 10:42:20 AM
Incidentally, I only hear the two notes at the end. I can't hear the other two that are mentioned in the M Forever discussion.
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2010, 03:06:48 AM
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.
Sarge
19! My, you are over the edge, dude! My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2010, 10:12:22 AM
19! My, you are over the edge, dude! My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!
Having only 12 on the shelf, I certainly feel like a bush leaguer. :(
8. I'm definitely still an amateur.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2010, 03:06:48 AM
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.
Sarge
If you strain your ears, you can hear the violins play D-C behind the brass intermittently, like a view from a train window that comes and goes between the trees, on the Sakari/Iceland recording.
Quote from: Brian on September 28, 2010, 11:21:59 AM
If you strain your ears, you can hear the violins play D-C behind the brass intermittently, like a view from a train window that comes and goes between the trees, on the Sakari/Iceland recording.
After the big discussion of this issue (driven by the former M forever) I remember listening for it and I didn't find it difficult to hear in any of the couple of recordings I tried, although it was often played in a way that seemed to assume that it was something you were not supposed to explicitly notice.
4 (plus one given away) and a fifth on order. Pitiful.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 28, 2010, 10:31:51 AM
Having only 12 on the shelf, I certainly feel like a bush leaguer. :(
Quote from: Brian on September 28, 2010, 11:20:26 AM
8. I'm definitely still an amateur.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 12:11:17 PM
4 (plus one given away) and a fifth on order. Pitiful.
Nah--you guys just aren't certifiable nutcases like some of us, at least where Sibelius is concerned. Bear in mind that some folks have collections of Beethoven sonatas or Bach's Goldbergs that make us all look like pikers...and that we used to have a fellow around here with 120+ recordings of the Rach 2!
Regarding M's point about the last four bars of the 7th: I'm not sure that I've ever heard it played quite the way I think it
should be played, which happily coincides with the way it's written, having that final drawn-out B to C in the strings expanding from forte to
fortissimo, and stopped cleanly at the very end to make what M calls a "musical exclamation point!" I'm with M all the way on this, seeing the ending as an emphatic affirmation of order and beauty rather than the half-hearted, ragged, giving-up-and-fading-into-the-ozone that most conductors offer us. Bernstein, bless his soul, got it as nearly right as anyone in his first recording with the NYPO. Few others even come close.
For
Alan: perhaps it would help if you were to open your attention to the organic, cellular nature of the work. Sibelius wasn't imposing a predetermined structure on his material, forcing it to fit his or anyone else's idea of how it should look or sound, but rather he worked to clear away extraneous impediments and let the material create its own essential form--like snowmelt dripping from sun-kissed firs trickling through the underbrush forms rivulets and then streams that join other waterways gliding inexorably down the mountain slopes until they meet in a mighty river that inevitably opens into the infinite depths of the sea.
Remember the old Beatles song,
Tomorrow Never Knows? "Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream...."
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2010, 02:54:59 PM
For Alan: perhaps it would help if you were to open your attention to the organic, cellular nature of the work. Sibelius wasn't imposing a predetermined structure on his material, forcing it to fit his or anyone else's idea of how it should look or sound, but rather he worked to clear away extraneous impediments and let the material create its own essential form--like snowmelt dripping from sun-kissed firs trickling through the underbrush forms rivulets and then streams that join other waterways gliding inexorably down the mountain slopes until they meet in a mighty river that inevitably opens into the infinite depths of the sea.
That last half is indeed a remarkably good evocation of aspects of the Sibelius Experience, regardless of which symphony one listens to!
I think I might be more able to do that drifting downstream, now. That's pretty much what I tried to do initially, and failed spectacularly, over years (I never needed to work hard at 1,2,3 and 5, you see - they just soaked into my bones, so 4, 6 and 7 always seemed so puzzlingly remote). Then at some point I started desperately looking for structure but couldn't find any. That was the (abandoned) state of play before Brian stepped in. Now that I actually have my base camps in place, I think I can afford to be more flexible in my approach.
David - so thankful for your spot-on description of the ending (and your recommendation of Bernstein). A lot of people on the forum (like the respected M) write that the last bars are like a weary, defeated man clutching a last twig of hope, but for me the ending of the symphony is one of enormous affirmation - not of triumph, because Sibelius was always too subtle for triumph (No 2 isn't even quite there), but of spiritual peace, at least. I really need to hear Lenny now. (And I will very gladly buy more and more recordings - this is one of those works, like the LvB symphonies, where I could imagine myself collecting obsessively.)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:08:38 PM4, 6 and 7 always seemed so puzzlingly remote). Then at some point I started desperately looking for structure but couldn't find any.
Now for my next task, apparently - because I have always thought of the Sixth as the most traditionally, classically structured of all the symphonies.
But it's past midnight, I have class in the morning, and that'll have to wait. :D
Quote from: Brian on September 28, 2010, 03:16:57 PM
Now for my next task, apparently - because I have always thought of the Sixth as the most traditionally, classically structured of all the symphonies.
Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it.
I want tunes in my Sibelius!
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it. I want tunes in my Sibelius!
I think the sixth is pretty tuneful. I could whistle a few of the best ones off the top of my head. The poco vivace has a great wee tune; totally memorable! 8)
Quote from: Benji on September 28, 2010, 03:49:22 PM
I think the sixth is pretty tuneful.
Depends on our personal wiring. Hence a conversation I had with a friend many years ago, which went something like this:
Him: What are you listening to these days?
Me: Wagner. I'm hooked on the
Ring.
Him: Good grief! But there aren't any decent tunes in Wagner.
Me: Oh come on, it's jam-packed full of brilliant tunes. What are you listening to, then?
Him: Verdi.
Me: Verdi? But I can't hear
any decent tunes in Verdi....
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:56:28 PM
Depends on our personal wiring. Hence a conversation I had with a friend many years ago, which went something like this:
Him: What are you listening to these days?
Me: Wagner. I'm hooked on the Ring.
Him: Good grief! But there aren't any decent tunes in Wagner.
Me: Oh come on, it's jam-packed full of brilliant tunes. What are you listening to, then?
Him: Verdi.
Me: Verdi? But I can't hear any decent tunes in Verdi....
Well whether there any
decent tunes is a matter of opinion, I agree. Maybe if you heard them isolated you could hear them when put back in to context. Get skype and i'll whistle them for you haha ;)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it. I want tunes in my Sibelius!
Ah...no wonder you're having trouble. The first and especially the second symphonies set you up for big, gushing tune-fests. He continued that--to some extent--with his symphonic poems and theatre music, but went another way entirely with the symphonies. The third is already veering off the romantic path and the fourth goes off-piste completely. (For some perverse reason I just imagined Jack Nicholson in that famous scene on the witness stand in A Few Good Men saying, "Tunes? You want the tunes?
You can't handle the tunes!")
I don't see the fourth as miserable at all. Dark in parts, yes, but not unremitting, not without beauty, grace, and joy. Grappling with mysteries and the great unknown, perhaps, with no real resolution of the ultimate uncertainty, but nevertheless finding peace in the acceptance of that uncertainty. Probing, indeed, but bleak and terrifying? Hardly!
As for the 6th--it's just so damned pleasant and effortless and sweetly melodic that it hardly seems possible for it be a great symphony. Where's the angst? The grand gestures? The sweeping themes? It just bubbles along, so perky yet well-mannered that it's easy to forget that it didn't just spring full-grown like Athena from the head of Zeus, but rather was honed and crafted by a master 'til no evidence of the sculptor's chisel remains.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:08:38 PM
......1,2,3 and 5, you see - they just soaked into my bones, so 4, 6 and 7 always seemed so puzzlingly remote).
While i like 1,2,3 and 5 I always found them reasonably conventional. My favroties have been; and this from early on in my Sibelius listening, 4, 6 and 7, because of their "mystery" and ability to let your own mind fill in the blanks; and these symphonies provides plenty of hooks upon which you can let your own mind expand....really mindblowing music - and occasionally very frightening as well, few works are able to scare the hell out of me when I'm in that mood like these!
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2010, 04:23:41 PM
I don't see the fourth as miserable at all. Dark in parts, yes, but not unremitting, not without beauty, grace, and joy. Grappling with mysteries and the great unknown, perhaps, with no real resolution of the ultimate uncertainty, but nevertheless finding peace in the acceptance of that uncertainty.
I'm ahead of myself here, because I intend to go back to the 4th with my new ears and I don't want to prejudge the result. But I've never experienced the peace you mention, here. The overall result seems disturbing and restless, and (of course) there's a significant tune problem too. Always after listening to the 4th I've emerged gloomy, puzzled, dissatisfied, and bad tempered - and that's a discouraging result as far as future listenings are concerned.
QuoteAs for the 6th--it's just so damned pleasant and effortless and sweetly melodic that it hardly seems possible for it be a great symphony. Where's the angst? The grand gestures? The sweeping themes? It just bubbles along, so perky yet well-mannered that it's easy to forget that it didn't just spring full-grown like Athena from the head of Zeus, but rather was honed and crafted by a master 'til no evidence of the sculptor's chisel remains.
Again, I intend to go back to it and see what I can find, though I feel as if I'll be doing it more from duty than pleasure. I can't help it. I want my Sibelius BIG. And I want his big tunes.
Quote from: erato on September 29, 2010, 12:09:11 AM
While i like 1,2,3 and 5 I always found them reasonably conventional.
Since I was sixteen, Sibelius has always stuck out like a great beacon among composers, for me, so that while I appreciate that those symphonies (1,2,3,5) may be described as
formally conventional, I've always found them unique. (People talk about the influence of Tchaikovsky, particularly in the 1st, but while I can hear that, Tchaikovsky never composed anything that blew my head off in the way Sibelius did.)
So whether they're conventional or not doesn't feature in my regard for them. I've never been able to find any other composer who could show me the things he shows me in 1,2,3 and 5, and that's enough, really.
Alan, what recordings of the Sixth do you have?
Quote from: Elgarian on September 29, 2010, 12:59:02 AMwhile I appreciate that those symphonies (1,2,3,5) may be described as formally conventional
The irony of this, of course, being that none of those symphonies are really formally conventional at all. There is the first, with its catastrophic "misfiring" ending (it obeys the letter of the Tchaikovskian law but loudly defies the spirit), the second with its bizarre first movement (six themes, none of them tunes), the third with its interrupted tempest of a finale, and the fifth, in which two of the movements are cast in forms of the composer's invention... ;) (I agree entirely with your second paragraph, by the way: Sibelius, even at his most "normal," does things nobody else even comes close to doing.)
~
This discussion is so good that I feel badly about not replying to everything. I have to go to class, but rest assured I'm containing a flood of words over here!
Quote from: Brian on September 29, 2010, 01:26:23 AM
Alan, what recordings of the Sixth do you have?
Same as the others - I just have 4 box sets: Sakari, Barbirolli, Vanska and Segerstam (Helsinki). Rozhdestvensky is on the way to join them, but MDT are waiting for new stock.
QuoteThe irony of this, of course, being that none of those symphonies are really formally conventional at all.
I can't really determine this for myself - I'm just quoting people who often seem to say it (with mildly disapproving Tchaikovsky references).
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2010, 02:54:59 PM
Remember the old Beatles song, Tomorrow Never Knows? "Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream...."
I forget just whence, but not long ago I read that Lennon copped that practically verbatim from something he was reading at the time.
Oh! And I remember what book to check to confirm that . . . .
Tibetan Book of the Dead innit?
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572305.jpg)
I've just listened to the first volume of Pietari Inkinen's new Sibelius cycle. I had mixed impressions. The First Symphony will not rank among my favorites: it is a little slow and soft-edged; the opening clarinet solo sounded a little too 'bright' (or at least not brooding enough), and then, once the strings get into a major key a few moments into the main allegro, they turn soft and Tchaikovskian with surprising ease. It's a general indicator of a performance that's not nearly as exciting as Segerstam, bleak as Berglund, or - well, you get the idea. It's one of the slowest performances I know: the scherzo's at 5:43 vs. 5:17 for Segerstam and Elder, 5:20 for Davis in Boston, and 5:01 for Berglund in Helsinki. The finale hits 13:00. I like slow, of course, but this didn't suit me.
Inkinen's Third is another story, though. It's very well-managed, with a first movement that hits all the right buttons, a wonderfully paced slow movement (9:50), and a finale which does indulge the Big Tune somewhat on its first arrival, but then hustles to the ending quite efficiently and with more than a little excitement.
It's all in terrific sound and I really cannot fault anything the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra does (except for the big clarinet solo in the First, and lower brass in the Third's final variations which don't make as big an impact as they could). I don't think the First had enough energy, and the Third was good but not necessarily individual or distinctive.
Somebody asked me if they thought this would be a lush, romantic cycle in contrast to Petri Sakari's chillier set, also on Naxos. The answer is "N/A." If by "romantic" you mean "slow," then yes, this first volume does tend towards the romantic side of things. But if by "romantic" you mean "impassioned," then the answer is "intermittently." I will listen again soon. Hopefully I'll like it better. I mean, I did like it. But I liked it passively, rather than enthusiastically.
EDIT: In defense of Inkinen's First, I should point out that in the first movement, the "outro" theme from the exposition (you know - the minor-key wind tune that leads back to the development/coda) is very sensitively played by the NZ winds, over those Sorcerer's Apprentice-like bassoons. (When the clarinets get the accompaniment they don't conjure up Mickey Mouse quite so easily...)
Just listened to Symphony No 2 in the new Melodiya Rozhdestvensky Moscow RSO box and thought it absolutely terrific - with braying soviet horns etc. This is by no means my favourite Sibelius symphony but this performance had me on the edge of my seat.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 30, 2010, 02:10:16 PM
Just listened to Symphony No 2 in the new Melodiya Rozhdestvensky Moscow RSO box and thought it absolutely terrific - with braying soviet horns etc. This is by no means my favourite Sibelius symphony but this performance had me on the edge of my seat.
Hey another convert :) I've been stuck on that set for over 2 weeks now. The 2nd Symphony isn't my favorite either, but they make the most of it.
Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2010, 01:17:09 PM
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572305.jpg)
I've just listened to the first volume of Pietari Inkinen's new Sibelius cycle. I had mixed impressions. The First Symphony will not rank among my favorites: it is a little slow and soft-edged; the opening clarinet solo sounded a little too 'bright' (or at least not brooding enough), and then, once the strings get into a major key a few moments into the main allegro, they turn soft and Tchaikovskian with surprising ease. It's a general indicator of a performance that's not nearly as exciting as Segerstam, bleak as Berglund, or - well, you get the idea. It's one of the slowest performances I know: the scherzo's at 5:43 vs. 5:17 for Segerstam and Elder, 5:20 for Davis in Boston, and 5:01 for Berglund in Helsinki. The finale hits 13:00. I like slow, of course, but this didn't suit me.
Inkinen's Third is another story, though. It's very well-managed, with a first movement that hits all the right buttons, a wonderfully paced slow movement (9:50), and a finale which does indulge the Big Tune somewhat on its first arrival, but then hustles to the ending quite efficiently and with more than a little excitement.
It's all in terrific sound and I really cannot fault anything the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra does (except for the big clarinet solo in the First, and lower brass in the Third's final variations which don't make as big an impact as they could). I don't think the First had enough energy, and the Third was good but not necessarily individual or distinctive.
Somebody asked me if they thought this would be a lush, romantic cycle in contrast to Petri Sakari's chillier set, also on Naxos. The answer is "N/A." If by "romantic" you mean "slow," then yes, this first volume does tend towards the romantic side of things. But if by "romantic" you mean "impassioned," then the answer is "intermittently." I will listen again soon. Hopefully I'll like it better. I mean, I did like it. But I liked it passively, rather than enthusiastically.
EDIT: In defense of Inkinen's First, I should point out that in the first movement, the "outro" theme from the exposition (you know - the minor-key wind tune that leads back to the development/coda) is very sensitively played by the NZ winds, over those Sorcerer's Apprentice-like bassoons. (When the clarinets get the accompaniment they don't conjure up Mickey Mouse quite so easily...)
I only just requested this CD for a MusicWeb assignment, when David Hurwitz at ClassicsToday posted a review which agrees with mine in nearly every assessment. Alas! This is a difficult assignment: to write an opinion when you've already written it on GMG, and somebody else has already written it on another website...
Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2010, 11:04:31 PM
I only just requested this CD for a MusicWeb assignment, when David Hurwitz at ClassicsToday posted a review which agrees with mine in nearly every assessment. Alas! This is a difficult assignment: to write an opinion when you've already written it on GMG, and somebody else has already written it on another website...
Difficult? It's called self-plagiarism, and it works like a charm. Required: Pen. (Keyboard). Confidence. A minimal modicum of writing ability. And shameless self-referentialism.
Quote from: jlaurson on October 14, 2010, 12:37:08 AM
Difficult? It's called self-plagiarism, and it works like a charm. Required: Pen. (Keyboard). Confidence. A minimal modicum of writing ability. And shameless self-referentialism.
Well my main concern is the mischievous temptation to write a PS saying "I know I said exactly the same things as Dave Hurwitz, but here's a link proving that I said them all first." ;D
Quote from: Brian on October 14, 2010, 01:01:35 AM
Well my main concern is the mischievous temptation to write a PS saying "I know I said exactly the same things as Dave Hurwitz, but here's a link proving that I said them all first." ;D
Or maybe you're..... pause for suspense.... the same person!
If I disappear now and forever, let it be known that I uncovered the shocking truth! :o
Ben? Ben? You still there? . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 14, 2010, 03:53:32 AM
Ben? Ben? You still there? . . .
Whether or not I am '
all there' is a matter for debate, but I am most definitely present. For now. :-X
Quote from: Benji on October 14, 2010, 01:38:31 AM
Or maybe you're..... pause for suspense.... the same person!
Based on our taste, I am very similar to D.H., but with less irrational mania for quasi-Mahlerian post-romantics. On the other hand, I AM the same person as Roger Ebert. When I was a film critic for my university paper, I always had to read Roger's review before submitting mine, to make sure that I hadn't come up with exactly the same opinions, insights, stresses, and jokes he had!
Quote from: Brian on October 14, 2010, 06:06:16 AM
Based on our taste, I am very similar to D.H., but with less irrational mania for quasi-Mahlerian post-romantics. On the other hand, I AM the same person as Roger Ebert. When I was a film critic for my university paper, I always had to read Roger's review before submitting mine, to make sure that I hadn't come up with exactly the same opinions, insights, stresses, and jokes he had!
You don't want to compare yourself to D.H., in any way. Trust me. You don't deserve that... no one does.
On the other hand you don't deserve to compare yourself to Roger Ebert. Yet. We'll talk in 20 years, after
a career's worth of Ebert-like insights, grace, wit, and skill. ;D
Quote from: jlaurson on October 14, 2010, 09:17:52 AM
You don't want to compare yourself to D.H., in any way. Trust me. You don't deserve that... no one does.
On the other hand you don't deserve to compare yourself to Roger Ebert. Yet. We'll talk in 20 years, after
a career's worth of Ebert-like insights, grace, wit, and skill. ;D
I just said that I agree with them in varying (but very large) percentages of cases, or that we have similar taste. You don't need insights, grace, wit or skill to like, say, Philip Seymour Hoffman better than Steven Seagal (though you probably need insight to like Berglund's Sibelius better than Inkinen's, or whatnot).
I'm crossposting this relevant post from the Listening Thread.
Today's listening log - as you can see, I have broken my week-long Sibelius fast (just 2 listens in the last 11 days) with a binge.
Sibelius: Symphony No 1. Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra; Leif Segerstam
Sibelius: Symphony No 2. Boston Symphony Orchestra; Colin Davis
Sibelius: Symphony No 3. Helsinki Festival Orchestra; Olli Mustonen
Sibelius: Symphony No 4. Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra; Paavo Berglund
Sibelius: Symphony No 5. Iceland Symphony Orchestra; Petri Sakari
Sibelius: Symphony No 6. Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra; Lorin Maazel
Sibelius: Symphony No 7. Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Thomas Beecham
A different conductor for each symphony - and not a dud in the lot! I'll have to write more later, but the significant discoveries are: I'm warming to Mustonen's eccentric Third, Sakari's reading is a shock new contender in my Quest for the Perfect Fifth, and I finally, finally enjoyed the Fourth Symphony for the first time today. Whew!
It's been an illuminating marathon. Maybe after dinner I should plunge into the tone poems. Or (I can't believe I'm saying this!) listen to the Fourth again.
Quote from: Brian on October 14, 2010, 09:35:37 AM
Sakari's reading is a shock new contender in my Quest for the Perfect Fifth
Interesting.
Quote from: Brian on October 14, 2010, 09:35:37 AM
...and I finally, finally enjoyed the Fourth Symphony for the first time today. Whew!
I'm very,
very happy for you. ;D 8)
heard a very ungainly 5th with the vienna so under fabio luisi. no wonder the composer continues to baffle continental audiences.
wonder how it might have been if mikko franck had conducted, as originally scheduled. was luisi's first time with the work, and from the sound of it, the orchestra's, too.
Listened to Segerstam's 7th with Helsinki (Ondine) today. A worthy performance, but sound which is a little too bright and forward for my taste. One of those recordings which allows you to hear every voice, but doesn't let all of the voices blend into a whole the way to would in a fine concert hall. Still, I enjoyed it quite a bit.
Listened to the piece twice in a row, and it is characteristic of Sibelius that more pleasure came from the second listening than the first. The structure of the music is complex from every point of view, and novelty is not necessary for pleasure. With Bax, for instance, I find the opposite is true. When I have listened to a piece of his twice in a row the effects that seem very deep the first time lose some of their luster on a second hearing. I'm far less familiar with Bax, so I will reserve judgement until I feel more confident that I am appreciating the music more fully.
Back to the Sibelius 7, at this point the two recordings that stand out in my mind are the recent Vanska on BIS and Karajan's wonderful recording from the 70s. The first is probably channeling the spirit of Sibelius more directly, but Karajan's recording was the first that allowed me to make sense of the music, and finds so many splendid sonorities in Sibelius' score.
Reposted here from the "What's spinning now" thread:
Quote from: Brian on October 18, 2010, 04:46:32 AM
Sibelius is not something you can try and get... it gets you. It's like a zombie. I spend months at a time not listening to Sibelius at all, and even not liking it, and thinking it's tacky and fake, and then it comes up behind me and bites me in the neck and I stagger around drunkenly for a month looking like the guy in the attached picture. I think what did it was that I saw No 5 live in concert knowing nothing about it or what to expect, and the finale sent my brain into the stratosphere and I've been trying to find that same level of rapture ever since and can't find it anywhere else. In other words, Sibelius is like crack. ;D
Much like my experience. Only in my case it took decades for me to appreciate him. I partly blame the music history idiots who don't get him and so call him a "nationalist" composer and offer
Finlandia as representative. I didn't care for the jingoistic
Finlandia and it gave me the wrong idea right off the bat.
I never heard him in concert and only rarely heard something on the radio that almost always seemed soporific. Somehow I bought Ormandy's 2nd and 5th and never warmed to them. They languished unplayed for years.
When our younger son fell in love with classical music, I started building a CD collection that would expose him to its breadth. Some folks I respected had so much admiration for Sibelius that I figured he should be included. I also figured there was a good chance that I was the one missing something. I bought Maazel's WP box set--mostly because it was cheap--and listened to the cycle several times over the next few weeks.
It began to get under my skin. Passages in the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, and the 7th especially began to haunt me. I pulled out the old Ormandy LPs and in the 5th I began to recognize the strange cellular buildup and to see in him the roots of minimalism. I started listening differently and wondered what else I was missing.
Because the later symphonies were the ones that began to bewitch me, I bought the Sony Royal Edition Bernstein/NYPO box of 4,5,6,& 7. The 5th gave me goosebumps...again and again, setting something in my soul astir that no other music had ever reached. I was hooked.
Crack is an apt analogy. Over the next few years I bought recording after recording, seeking the holy grail: that perfect set guaranteed to produce epiphanies every time I popped it into the CD player. I haven't found it...or maybe I've found several.
Your tale of hearing the 5th live reminds me of the last time I heard it, with the Pittsburgh (who had been schooled in it by Maazel) under Andrew Davis. It was a terrific performance, and after the last chord faded and Davis turned to the audience, my wife and I and a couple of dozen other folks jumped to our feet and applauded wildly while most of the people sitting nearby just looked at us strangely while applauding politely. I think they didn't get it, and I'm not surprised, since it took me so long to get it, too.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 18, 2010, 06:15:44 AM
Crack is an apt analogy. Over the next few years I bought recording after recording, seeking the holy grail: that perfect set guaranteed to produce epiphanies every time I popped it into the CD player. I haven't found it...or maybe I've found several.
Oh, didn't see that coming! Is it really apt? haha Are you selling your belongings and those of others. Are you stealing from your family to buy more Sibelius? Are we to look out for your book
What's eating David Ross? There is help available! ;)
(* chortle *)
And, Ben: check PM!
Quote from: Benji on October 18, 2010, 06:28:01 AM
Oh, didn't see that coming! Is it really apt? haha Are you selling your belongings and those of others. Are you stealing from your family to buy more Sibelius? Are we to look out for your book What's eating David Ross?
There is help available! ;)
Ha! From one fellow Sibelius junkie to another... ;D 8) :-* .
"And in a related story, today in Minneapolis a gang of crazed Sibelius junkies held Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra hostage for several hours, forcing them to play through the entire symphony cycle under threat of being forced to watch Lady Gaga videos."
Listened today to Segerstam's recording of Sibelius 1 (Ondine). This is a performance I have basically no reservations about, he seems to have hit the nail on the head at every juncture. The awe-inspiring sonorities at the very end of the finale are gorgeously performed, and quite a bit slower than I am accustomed, I think.
One contrast that stands out, having listened to the first symphony soon after having listened to the 7th, his how much more grand the gestures in the first symphony are, compared with the 7th. The 7th features continuously evolving themes, where the first symphony has themes that are introduced at well defined stages in the progression of the music. The first also has very striking harmonies, but often coming in a dramatic, sudden or unexpected transition. The thing that strikes me about harmonic progressions in the 7th is that the different voices or sections of the orchestra seem to come to them as though independently and discordantly, the scope of the event becoming clear only after the transition has rippled through the orchestra. Sibelius wrote wonderful music at every stage of his career, but the range of his development is impressive, and it is clear that the brilliant colors of his earlier music had to be sacrificed to create the more subtle hues of his late music.
Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2010, 01:17:09 PM
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572305.jpg)
Thanks for the review, Brian. Doesn't seem like a likely acquisition for me, but who knows?
Symphonies 1 & 3, now Symphony 2 from this set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphonies & Kullervo
Petri Sakari, Iceland SO
Naxos Wite Box (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20)
Still a few available for a good price (better than the clunky 4-disc version, actually!) on Amazon.
The slim White Box (with full booklet) is so much neater than the jewel-case mess. And the Kullervo not half bad.
Quote from: jlaurson on October 26, 2010, 07:00:43 AM
Symphonies 1 & 3, now Symphony 2 from this set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphonies & Kullervo
Petri Sakari, Iceland SO
Naxos Wite Box (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20)
Still a few available for a good price (better than the clunky 4-disc version, actually!) on Amazon.
The slim White Box (with full booklet) is so much neater than the jewel-case mess. And the Kullervo not half bad.
Underrated, methinks. One of my faves. More characterful than most, with a rugged rusticity that seems appropriate given JS's love for ancient epics and nature's sublimity.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 26, 2010, 07:17:15 AM
Underrated, methinks. One of my faves. More characterful than most, with a rugged rusticity that seems appropriate given JS's love for ancient epics and nature's sublimity.
The Kullervo or the whole set? I have Sakari's 4-7.
And as a side note which I also posted in the listening thread, for the Inkinen release's booklet, Keith Anderson simply copy-and-pasted his notes for Sakari, including a grammar mistake and a possible factual error (he claims Symphony No 8 was completed and destroyed in 1929). To his credit, there are two sentences of new material listing the instruments in each symphony. :P
The whole set.
Is that the same Kullervo which was one of the very first wave of Naxos recordings? I should revisit it . . . I really don't think I've listened to it since that year I first bought it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MycKLMGRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Released in 1997 and so not strictly in "the very first wave"...
DavidRoss: my physical copy of Sakari's 4/5 has arrived, so I'll now play No 5 in CD sound quality and see if it still stacks up as a "contender."
Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2010, 02:05:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MycKLMGRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Released in 1997 and so not strictly in "the very first wave"...
Well, one of my first ever Naxos purchases, anyway : )
Listened to Sibelius Symphony No 6 today (Segerstam's Helsinki recording on Ondine, but that is the subject of a different post). I was just reminded of what a wonderful work this is, and how the movements do not stand on their own, but contribute to a greater whole. The metaphor that came to mind is the symphony is like a railroad journey where each leg of the trip leaves you on a deserted station, waiting for the next train to come and take you to the next stop on your way. You are not at ease until all four legs of the symphonic journey are complete.
The first movement is really one of my favorite pieces in the symphonic repertoire. It begins with that marvelous counterpoint among the high strings, later joined by reeds and lower strings. But rather than building to the rich, sensuous climax you might expect if you were listening to something by Brahms, it is interrupted by more lively music, both happy and sad at the same time, that leads to those odd, repetitive figures on strings, tossing the same phrase back and forth, back and forth. It seems puzzling until strains of legato melody start to waft in and tie it all together. The end of the movement seems to be building to a dramatic finish, which becomes surprisingly halting, punctuated with mysterious silences. And the end, we are at a different place than when we started, but not "home" by any means. The next two movements are similar, in that they make me feel that we have gone to a different place, but that we are not at a resting place. Only the finale brings (ironically quiet) resolution.
In the end, the piece gives that wonderful feeling that "it doesn't get any better than this."
If you have M forever's email address, do PM it to me. I've only just today realized that the Seventh Symphony is built on a quote from Beethoven's Fifth and, although he has probably known this since he was 6, I want to share the excitement of discovery with him.
Quote from: Brian on December 05, 2010, 02:42:57 PM
If you have M forever's email address, do PM it to me. I've only just today realized that the Seventh Symphony is built on a quote from Beethoven's Fifth and, although he has probably known this since he was 6, I want to share the excitement of discovery with him.
It is?
Quote from: Scarpia on December 05, 2010, 05:56:20 PM
It is?
This morning I am having doubts. I heard it clearly at the Philharmonia last night (No 5 w/ Dohnanyi) but now I'm going to have to examine the scores to make sure it's not just a coincidence and there is enough evidence to back the claim up. More precisely, I know there is one quotation in the Seventh at a critical juncture which M discussed on this board (the final bars), but I would like to break down the basic themes and search for Beethoven links in each, because if they are not there, then it is likely to be a coincidental resemblance.
It's time to play who said that?
Who said this?
"An incalculable store of what is past proves immanently to be inadequate, though in its own time and for the consciousness of its own period this may not have been the case. It is the course of time that unmasks these deficiencies, yet they are objective in quality and not a matter of shifting taste. –Only the most advanced art of any period has any chance against the decay wrought by time. In the afterlife of works, however, qualitative differences become apparent ... Hopes for renaissances of Pfitzner and Sibelius, Carossa or Hans Thoma, say more about those who cherish the hope than about the enduring value of the works of such souls."
Quote from: Brian on January 19, 2011, 03:56:27 AM
It's time to play who said that?
Who said this?
"... Hopes for renaissances of Pfitzner and Sibelius, Carossa or Hans Thoma, say more about those who cherish the hope than about the enduring value of the works of such souls."
a bit too easy; pretty obviously from the same man who called Sibelius "the world's worst composer", no?
Quote from: jlaurson on January 19, 2011, 04:02:25 AM
a bit too easy; pretty obviously from the same man who called Sibelius "the world's worst composer", no?
No, but a fellow whom that man knew well, at least intellectually.
It is my understanding that the mystery man in question also said, though I don't have the direct quote, that Sibelius' symphonies were composed on the level of an amateur who refused to take music lessons.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2011, 04:22:23 AM
Theodore Adorno
Sarge
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_thumbup.gif) From
Aesthetic Theory.
Does anybody know of an English translation of Rene Leibowitz' book "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World"? The original French work is right here at the British Library, but I may not be the world's best translator.
Quote from: Brian on January 19, 2011, 04:35:03 AM
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_thumbup.gif) From Aesthetic Theory.
Does anybody know of an English translation of Rene Leibowitz' book "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World"? The original French work is right here at the British Library, but I may not be the world's best translator.
Oops. Meant Adorno. Quoted Leibowitz. It's been so long that I've seen someone quote Adorno to project intellectual prowess, I was completely thrown off. His writings on music must be my most disdained books on my shelves. A reasonably above-average intellect with a style unreasonably beyond-redemption. By the time you get to the modest kernel of meaning of any one of his obtuse sentences, you're so exhausted that you forget to question how insightful (or not) that very sentence just was. In any case, Adorno's opinion about Sibelius is as inane and childish as Gould's about Mozart. But at least Gould didn't damage Mozart (apart from his recordings. Ha!). Adorno's moronic statement probably plays some part in the reluctance of the continent to even consider Sibelius as a worthy composer. Even Karajan couldn't pierce the mantle of ignorance that still hangs over the ears of these audiences with regards to the great Finn.
Along with most of his chamber music and piano music, unfortunately there is also breath-taking Snöfrid op.29 what tends to be in shadows. Great orchestral colors and awesome singing!
Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2010, 02:05:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MycKLMGRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Released in 1997 and so not strictly in "the very first wave"...
DavidRoss: my physical copy of Sakari's 4/5 has arrived, so I'll now play No 5 in CD sound quality and see if it still stacks up as a "contender."
This is not a good quality
Kullervo to my ears. Here is one my favorite recordings of this massive work:
[asin]B000R3QZ22[/asin]
I also enjoyed Segerstam's recording on Ondine and Vanska's on BIS. Of course, Paavo Berglund blazed trails with his epic performance, so this shouldn't go without being mentioned.
Quote from: Elgarian on September 28, 2010, 03:44:16 PM
I want tunes in my Sibelius!
You don't notice tunes in 6th? :o What about tremendously bursting main theme of the finale?
Quote from: jlaurson on January 19, 2011, 06:12:11 AM
Oops. Meant Adorno. Quoted Leibowitz. It's been so long that I've seen someone quote Adorno to project intellectual prowess, I was completely thrown off. His writings on music must be my most disdained books on my shelves. A reasonably above-average intellect with a style unreasonably beyond-redemption. By the time you get to the modest kernel of meaning of any one of his obtuse sentences, you're so exhausted that you forget to question how insightful (or not) that very sentence just was. In any case, Adorno's opinion about Sibelius is as inane and childish as Gould's about Mozart. But at least Gould didn't damage Mozart (apart from his recordings. Ha!). Adorno's moronic statement probably plays some part in the reluctance of the continent to even consider Sibelius as a worthy composer. Even Karajan couldn't pierce the mantle of ignorance that still hangs over the ears of these audiences with regards to the great Finn.
It sounds like our experiences with him are similar. I was led to read Adorno by a quotation somewhere suggesting he held exactly the opposite views from mine, and digging through
Aesthetic Theory the suspicion was confirmed. We disagree on everything; his arguments take on an obtuse, foggy hocus-pocus of professedly irrefutable logic which nevertheless seems quite clearly wrong: in other words, I haven't seen anything quite like Adorno outside of religious apologetics. As for his style, it seems to snap in and out of focus: every page or so there will be a moment where he sums up all his strength and explains his ideas in short, aphoristic sentences, and then things will blow out of control again and he will return to near-incomprehensibility. I'm not sure which is worse, because the excessive verbiage is more philosophically precise, but the best-written sentences are plagued with dubious metaphors and irrational generalizations.
Of course, your dismissive remark about "someone quot[ing] Adorno to project intellectual prowess" is not appreciated; I was reading his book and taking notes, like I occasionally do when I think it useful to know my enemies, and just cut-and-pasted that quote from the Word file to GMG.
That said, my original question still stands. Does anyone know of an English-language copy of Rene Leibowitz' book "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World"? The original French work is right here at the British Library, and if no English version exists I may have to translate it myself with the aid of my Parisian flatmate.
I worry about Leibowitz, that he would go to the length of writing a book of that title . . . I thought it was just a remark . . . .
The Sibelius Fifth is on at Symphony this coming weekend!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2011, 05:58:00 AM
I worry about Leibowitz, that he would go to the length of writing a book of that title . . . I thought it was just a remark . . . .
The Sibelius Fifth is on at Symphony this coming weekend!
Envy, Karl, envy!
Also, reassurance: I now hold "Sibelius le plus mauvais compositeur du monde" in my hands, and it is not a book, as commonly reported, but rather a pamphlet. It's No 37 in a series of pamphlets called "Brimborions," or roughly, bonbons, useless bits, things of no value. Thankfully for my planned translation attempt, the text runs to a mere two pages in length.
http://www.antonin-serviere.com/site/Texts_files/Sibelius-Reception.pdf
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 07, 2011, 07:32:24 AM
http://www.antonin-serviere.com/site/Texts_files/Sibelius-Reception.pdf
Thanks, David, that's an interesting article, although I'm now sad to have missed the Sibelius Conference 2010 by a matter of weeks. :(
The word count on Leibowitz' pamphlet is a mere 695, of which the easiest to translate are possibly: "ces thèmes répparaissent, sans rime ni raison" ;D
Thank you for this pdf, very interesting, as is the Sibelius-Adorno thread. The author's suggestion (in A's defence, one must assume) that Adorno's comments were "clearly incidental" and "should not have been taken maybe so seriously" is however not very convincing - Adorno hated the way Sibelius was idolised in the USA (where he lived during the emigration) to the detriment of other more radical composers like Schoenberg, and later did everything he could to damage the composer's standing in Germany*, where another greater writer, artist and man, Busoni, had championed the Finnish composer in concerts back in the days of the Weimar Republic - as he did Bartoḱ's work, which Adorno considered promising but limited by folkloristic tendencies and thus compromised, which is similar to Leibowitz's criticism of the Hungarian composer.. The piece in which he dismissed Sibelius' whole oeuvre also cunningly chooses to concentrate on what may be S's most critically praised work, the 4th symphony, describing it as technically inept ant repetitive - hardly what one might consider an "incidental" criticism. Adorno's famous attack on jazz (""Life in the late capitalist era is a constant initiation rite. Everyone must show that he wholly identifies himself with the power which is belaboring him. This occurs in the principle of jazz syncopation, which simultaneously derides stumbling and makes it a rule") was also intended to shame music-lovers into shunning such music, as were his attacks on Stravinsky as "regressive". With respect to the latter, there is a revealing anecdote told by a contemporary witness whose name I have unfortunately forgotten: the latter was sitting at a concert some time in the 50s and realised that Adorno was in the next seat clapping enthusiastically after a performance of Stravinsky's Piano Concerto. He then asked Adorno, with whom he was acquainted, what had happened since his famous philippic against Stravinsky's work in The Philosophy of New Music - the latter said that such polemics were unnecessary now, since the imminent danger that he might supplant Schoenberg had passed, in other words serialism ruled OK...In any case, I can report that in the 60s and after there was almost complete ignorance of Sibelius among music lovers in Germany, where I have lived on and off since 1965, that the only two renowned German conductors to perform/record his work after WW2 were Karajan and Rosbaud - and that a leading music critic whom I know is still totally impervious to any criticism of his hero, Adorno...
*He also wished to discredit Sibelius for having lent his name to the Goebbels-organised artistic collaboration between Germany and other nations, I believe.
Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2011, 05:21:24 AM
Of course, your dismissive remark about "someone quot[ing] Adorno to project intellectual prowess" is not appreciated; I was reading his book and taking notes...
;D
Well, it's heartening (and appreciated) that you didn't seem to take it in too bad a spirit. :)
Cheerio from Westminster,
jfl
As a prominent member of the Frankfurt School, Adorno had an ideological axe to grind --- and to the totalitarian narrow-mindedness which is the inherent mark of any ideology fell victim not only Sibelius and Stravinsky, but also his own prose, as Brian testifies. His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all. They are however instructive about how even some of the finest minds can display a considerable and lamentable obtuseness.
Quote from: Florestan on February 09, 2011, 12:59:44 AM
...His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all...
The difference being: Schopenhauer is a pleasure to read. (Incidentally: where does Schopenhauer reject Wagner? I don't think I've read *that* part. He wouldn't have likely heard more than Rienzi, Flying D-Man, and Tannhaeuser, would he?)
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2011, 02:35:17 AM
The difference being: Schopenhauer is a pleasure to read.
Indeed, his prose is superb.
Quote
(Incidentally: where does Schopenhauer reject Wagner? I don't think I've read *that* part. He wouldn't have likely heard more than Rienzi, Flying D-Man, and Tannhaeuser, would he?)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZFMM80E9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU03_.jpg)
This very informative and well-written biography quotes from a Schopenhauer's letter to Wagner, written after the latter had sent the former the score of one of his works --- can't remember off the top of my head which one, but given the exchange took place around Schopenhauer's death in 1860, it could have been "Das Rheingold", "Die Walkure" or even "Tristan und Isolde". Schopenhauer wrote something to the effect that he thanked Wagner for sending his music but he remained faithful to the old masters, nominating Rossini and Mozart.
Will check the book these days and give you more details.
EDIT: It appears it's time to re-read that excellent biography --- I was wrong: Schopenhauer never replied personally to Wagner, but he did make very dismissive comments about
The Ring, and did prefer Rossini and Mozart over it.
See here (http://books.google.ro/books?id=ddmA12K0M3oC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=schopenhauer+wagner+rossini&source=bl&ots=O2h3yJn7i3&sig=fM9fE2aFf0TTSnan5IuXacZHAQs&hl=ro&ei=HYhSTeScMM2q8APv9IjVCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=schopenhauer%20wagner%20rossini&f=false) and here (http://www.wagnersite.nl/Schopenhauer/Arthur.htm).
Quote from: Florestan on February 09, 2011, 12:59:44 AM
As a prominent member of the Frankfurt School, Adorno had an ideological axe to grind --- and to the totalitarian narrow-mindedness which is the inherent mark of any ideology fell victim not only Sibelius and Stravinsky, but also his own prose, as Brian testifies. His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all. They are however instructive about how even some of the finest minds can display a considerable and lamentable obtuseness.
QFT ;D
And if that be true of even some of the finest minds . . . .
I think, though, despite my own disparaging remarks anent Adorno's polemical obduracy, that his writing cannot be easily dismissed as unreadable - and indeed (in German, at any rate) can offer both pleasure and instruction: I am thinking particularly of Dialektik der Aufklärung, Minima Moralia, the Mahler and Berg monographs and the long essays on Bach and Schoenberg. "Totalitarian" strikes me as a particularly obtuse epithet, applying as it does to state control or coercion; even if the term is understood metaphorically (not a good idea), Adorno doesn't usually make it easy for his reader to understand his thought whereas totalitarian government makes it perfectly clear what is prohibited or demanded, thus a fortiori the analogy is misplaced. My annoyance at Adorno's wilful crotchets does not permit me to write him off.
I guess I'm lost, looking for the Sibelius thread.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 12:20:19 PM
I guess I'm lost, looking for the Sibelius thread.
Lol...yeah really wish this thread would get back on topic. F*** Adorno!
I do admire the polished courtesy with which you are wont to broadcast your opinion.
Some of Sibelius's little known yet lovely works are included on this disc, which is overdue for another hearing:
[asin]B00006ANKD[/asin]
Quote from: mjwal on February 09, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
I do admire the polished courtesy with which you are wont to broadcast your opinion.
Never mind the Bolsheviks. 8) I started this tread and I see nothing wrong with how it's evolved lately. Now, if the thread had been lost in a
"Revolutionizing The Sugar Substitute Industry" tangent, well, then there would be a problem.
But no such threat as I see it. So, feel free to carry on...
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2011, 12:57:44 PM
Some of Sibelius's little known yet lovely works are included on this disc, which is overdue for another hearing:
[asin]B00006ANKD[/asin]
That's a great recording. I picked this one up many months ago and have enjoyed it.
Listened last night to Sibelius's first symphony and was again struck by how radical and original that plaintive clarinet opening seems. Are there antecedents, or was this extraordinarily daring for a young composer from a backwater duchy of a second-rate European power?
Hello Sibelians,
The "Bi-weekly Listening and Appreciation" thread gave me the idea to dive a bit deeper into Sibelius, and I would like to share a few short impressions of some interpretation comparisons of the first symphony:
1. Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RTVSO
I remember not liking it much, but I forgot the details. Also I might have been a bit tired while listening.
2. Barbirolli/Hallé Orchestra
Beautiful moments, atmospheric, but not convincing as a whole. Has the most beautiful realisation of what I call for myself the "seagulls floating downwards"-motif (track 1, 7:14). I think emotionally this interpretation for me is most "in tune" with the symphony.
3. Paavo Berglund/Helsinki PhO
Atmospheric, but a bit boneless and unclear to me.
4. Bernstein/NYPh
Strange! A totally different Sibelius, almost lighthearted, sometimes makes me think of a film soundtrack, quick tempi, miking focusing on detail rather than merging the sound into one, sounds nice and is pleasantly clear, but is it right for this symphony? For me the other interpretations above had a "blue", cold colour, "nature", outside. Bernstein's made me think of a warm brown, of (Gustav) Mahler, of "inside", psyche rather than nature. Intersting, but not matching in my opinion, also lacking depth, maybe?
5. Segerstam/Helsinki PhO
Instantly a feeling of "this is all making sense". But no beauty. No landscape painting, but meaningful and somehow feeling "true". Also more feeling "brown" than "blue" to me.
To find the position of the Barbirolli "seagulls" I listend to a bit again, and I liked the beauty and emotional appeal. I'd like to have the stuctured cohesion of Segerstam with some of the appealing skin of Barbirolli :)
There are still two more versions on my list: Colin Davis and Blomstedt, but I needed to write a bit down of what I thought so far.
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too! But the discs can be difficult to to get outside Japan.
Rozhdestvensky seems now (spottily) available in the West on Melodiya. (Thanks,
Elgarian)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.1 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BV/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l23NQzgQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006OA66/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4154NWJFSBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Philips v.2 ~$18,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041BW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c2/fb/a11db220dca044c269049010._AA190_.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
Royal Classics (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGLH/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Maazel,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
The Segerstam/Ondine set is available at 18 Euros on amazon.de.
Just ordered one. :D
Quote from: jlaurson on February 27, 2011, 03:19:59 AM
Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too! But the discs can be difficult to to get outside Japan.
Rozhdestvensky seems now (spottily) available in the West on Melodiya. (Thanks, Elgarian)
...
Thank you very much for this market survey :)
I have tickets to see Thomas Adès conduct the Boston Symphony in a few weeks and Sibelius' "The Tempest" (Suite No. 1) is on the program. I picked up a copy of the EMI Beecham/Royal Philharmonic CD to familiarize myself with the work and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. Any recommendations for other recordings? I understand the order of these short pieces varies from recording to recording. This one seems to have movements from Suite 1 and Suite 2 interspersed somewhat randomly.
Quote from: Szykneij on March 01, 2011, 02:29:11 PM
I have tickets to see Thomas Adès conduct the Boston Symphony in a few weeks and Sibelius' "The Tempest" (Suite No. 1) is on the program. I picked up a copy of the EMI Beecham/Royal Philharmonic CD to familiarize myself with the work and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. Any recommendations for other recordings? I understand the order of these short pieces varies from recording to recording. This one seems to have movements from Suite 1 and Suite 2 interspersed somewhat randomly.
For the suites, Segerstam/HPO, for the complete incidental music, Saraste/FRSO.
I'm undergoing a severe Sibelius drought so far this year. The last period of explosive activity in this thread, back when Elgarian and I conquered our fears of the Seventh and Fourth, respectively, was my last Sibelius "kick." I listened to the Fourth a couple times for the listening club, and saw the Fifth live yesterday - Philharmonia & Susanna Malkki - a wonderful experience! - but Nos 4 and 5 are the only Sibelius works I've heard at all in 2011. Averaging one listen to his music per week.
It feels really bizarre to go through such pronounced phases with a composer. In about 6 weeks, if the trend holds true, I'll be listening to him obsessively again.
Quote from: Brian on March 07, 2011, 03:07:26 AM
I'm undergoing a severe Sibelius drought so far this year. The last period of explosive activity in this thread, back when Elgarian and I conquered our fears of the Seventh and Fourth, respectively, was my last Sibelius "kick." I listened to the Fourth a couple times for the listening club, and saw the Fifth live yesterday - Philharmonia & Susanna Malkki - a wonderful experience! - but Nos 4 and 5 are the only Sibelius works I've heard at all in 2011. Averaging one listen to his music per week.
It feels really bizarre to go through such pronounced phases with a composer. In about 6 weeks, if the trend holds true, I'll be listening to him obsessively again.
My patterns aren't so erratic as yours, but I try to make time for the composers that I love at least every month. This month is Stravinsky, Bartok, and Villa-Lobos month for me so far. I think in April I'm going to try to catch up with some Sibelius, but I'm not going to listen to any of the symphonies, as much as I love them, but I have already explored them from top to bottom, inside and out. I'm going to focus my attention on the tone poems, choral works, and the incidental music he composed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2011, 03:18:22 PM
My patterns aren't so erratic as yours, but I try to make time for the composers that I love at least every month. This month is Stravinsky, Bartok, and Villa-Lobos month for me so far. I think in April I'm going to try to catch up with some Sibelius, but I'm not going to listen to any of the symphonies, as much as I love them, but I have already explored them from top to bottom, inside and out. I'm going to focus my attention on the tone poems, choral works, and the incidental music he composed.
Don't forget Voces intimae! And much of his less known chamber music for larger ensembles or violin/piano is really worth of listening and most of them are totally underrated.
Sorry, when it's about Sibelius's more less known compositions I can rarely keep my trap shut. ::)
The Grant Park Orchestra & Chorus performed Sibelius's Kullervo the other night and got some great write ups from locals.
Thought I would share these two reviews. :)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/ct-ent-0801-lintu-review-20110731,0,3217023.column
http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2011/07/sibelius%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Ckullervo%E2%80%9D-given-a-rousing-performance-by-lintu-grant-park-orchestra/
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 09, 2011, 03:18:22 PM
My patterns aren't so erratic as yours, but I try to make time for the composers that I love at least every month. This month is Stravinsky, Bartok, and Villa-Lobos month for me so far. I think in April I'm going to try to catch up with some Sibelius, but I'm not going to listen to any of the symphonies, as much as I love them, but I have already explored them from top to bottom, inside and out. I'm going to focus my attention on the tone poems, choral works, and the incidental music he composed.
For the male choir pieces, I recommend this excellent album
[asin]B001AE3F48[/asin]
The pronunciation is going to be atrocious if you get the works performed by non-Finnish choirs, I guarantee that. Then again, you might not notice it.
Quote from: North Star on August 01, 2011, 04:30:18 AM
For the male choir pieces, I recommend this excellent album
[asin]B001AE3F48[/asin]
The pronunciation is going to be atrocious if you get the works performed by non-Finnish choirs, I guarantee that. Then again, you might not notice it.
I'll have to check but if I'm not mistaken I already have this recording which is included in the
Essential Sibelius 15-CD BIS set I bought a year or so ago. I think it's out-of-print now.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 01, 2011, 03:59:13 PM
I'll have to check but if I'm not mistaken I already have this recording which is included in the Essential Sibelius 15-CD BIS set I bought a year or so ago. I think it's out-of-print now.
Yes, it very probably is, perhaps there are even two (not too well filled ones, though) CD's.
Quote from: North Star on August 02, 2011, 08:59:34 PM
Yes, it very probably is, perhaps there are even two (not too well filled ones, though) CD's.
Well choral work has never been that big of interest me when discussing Sibelius. His best work, in my opinion, are the symphonies and tone poems, though he has written some lovely pieces for violin/orchestra as well as some incidental music, but this is fairly minor Sibelius.
Quote from: North Star on August 01, 2011, 04:30:18 AM
For the male choir pieces, I recommend this excellent album
[asin]B001AE3F48[/asin]
The pronunciation is going to be atrocious if you get the works performed by non-Finnish choirs, I guarantee that. Then again, you might not notice it.
Nota bene: this group is the chorus on the Segerstam/Helsinki Philharmonic performance of Kullervo issued by Ondine.
Yes, YL (Ylioppilaskunnan Laulajat; Singers of the Students' Union) is the finest male choir in Finland, and is probably on every recording of Sibelius with a Finnish orchestra.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2008, 06:29:35 AM
Here are a few examples. I hope others will "chime" in with other performances:
Glockenspiel
Maazel/Vienna
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Berglund/COE
Vänskä/Lahti SO
Karajan/Berlin Phil (DG)
Karajan/Berlin Phil (EMI)
Segerstam/Helsinki
Beecham/RPO
Barbirolli/Hallé
Sakari/Iceland
Kegel/Dresden
Tubular Bells
Bernstein/NY Phil
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Blomstedt/San Francisco
Stokowski
Glockenspiel and Tubular Bells
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Davis/Boston
Järvi/Gothenburg
Szell and Reiner began with the glockenspiel, then added tubular bells, and ended with just bells.
I think the combination of instruments is the most effective. Davis, for example, begins with glockenspiel, uses bells only in the central climax, and has both appear near the symphony's end, which make those bars sound even more chaotic and disturbing than usual.
Sarge
Chiming in that
Ernest Ansermet is 'totally tubular' (as the California surfers used to say) in his version with
L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. And it creates a strange and beautiful effect, in my opinion.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 02, 2011, 09:09:59 PM
Well choral work has never been that big of interest me when discussing Sibelius. His best work, in my opinion, are the symphonies and tone poems, though he has written some lovely pieces for violin/orchestra as well as some incidental music, but this is fairly minor Sibelius.
Have you hear his Snofrid? It is in my top 5 favourite Sibelius works.
If one were toying with the idea of getting either the Blomstedt or the Maazel/Pitts cycle, what are the considerations that should push one in either direction?
Quote from: Amfortas on August 08, 2011, 10:26:42 AM
Chiming in that Ernest Ansermet is 'totally tubular' (as the California surfers used to say) in his version with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. And it creates a strange and beautiful effect, in my opinion.
Cool. I haven't heard Ansermet. I'll add it to the list.
Sarge
Quote from: Amfortas on August 08, 2011, 10:26:42 AM
Chiming in that Ernest Ansermet is 'totally tubular' (as the California surfers used to say) in his version with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. And it creates a strange and beautiful effect, in my opinion.
Ansermet's 4th (if that's indeed the one you're discussing) is pretty great, indeed.
'Strange and beautiful' might well apply for the whole performance.
Also, cross-posting from the Melodiya thread, regarding something I picked up this year:
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:16:15 PM
Speaking of which, should you find the Rozhdestvensky Sibelius cycle of offer, or even at a reasonable price, and you like Sibelius at all, it's one of those unexpected 24-carat diamonds of the Melodiya catalogue; or even the Sibelius catalogue.
Short of Vänskä's uber-'authentic' cycle, I can't think of any (complete) cycle I would have before Rozhdestvensky's, much to my surprise when I acquired it. No allowances for being 'Russian-style': it's just great Sibelius, including the best 3rd I know!
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies. The 1st is good, but not mind-blowing; and then you get to the second... And then that third. :o And then... Even the 6th!
It's as awe-inspiring as Svetlanov's Mahler, only more normal.
Quote from: John of Glasgow on August 08, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
Have you hear his Snofrid? It is in my top 5 favourite Sibelius works.
Seconded - such an ernest little cantata-thingy, and with enough big tunes to save the day.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 04:26:25 PM
Seconded - such an ernest little cantata-thingy, and with enough big tunes to save the day.
That sounds like most of pre-symphonic Sibelius: an earnest little cantata/tone-poem thing, plus nice tunes. ;D
Sibelius really is one of those cases where one can definitely feel the difference, once he started getting serious about his music as a formal venture, vs. 'nice things that describe Finland'. Not to say the nice things that describe Finland were bad music; however, I can never quite get over the compositional gulf between them and the late symphonies.
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
That sounds like most of pre-symphonic Sibelius: an earnest little cantata/tone-poem thing, plus nice tunes. ;D
Sibelius really is one of those cases where one can really feel the difference, once he started getting serious about his music as a formal venture, vs. 'nice things that describe Finland'. Not to say the nice things that describe Finland were bad music, however. Still, I can never quite get over the compositional gulf between them and the late symphonies.
Indeedie - I don't have much time for the minor/very early works, and Snöfrid is dangerously thin on material, but really grabs my attention. I like Sibelius' early maturity (Lemminkäinen Suite through Symphony No.3) as much as his later works - I always feel bad about that :P Even a few of the even earlier works like En Saga I find pretty essential, although I am pre-disposed to the tone poem medium.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 04:45:06 PM
Indeedie - I don't have much time for the minor/very early works, and Snöfrid is dangerously thin on material, but really grabs my attention. I like Sibelius' early maturity (Lemminkäinen Suite through Symphony No.3) as much as his later works - I always feel bad about that :P Even a few of the even earlier works like En Saga I find pretty essential, although I am pre-disposed to the tone poem medium.
I like parts of the Lemminkäinen Suite lots, and Rozhdestvensky (see above) really gave me a new perspective on the power of the 3rd symphony. But the moment I put on the 4th symphony, it's like it all fades away. :D
I suppose Sibelius would be happy.
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:48:51 PM
I like parts of the Lemminkäinen Suite lots, and Rozhdestvensky (see above) really gave me a new perspective on the power of the 3rd symphony. But the moment I put on the 4th symphony, it's like it all fades away. :D
I suppose Sibelius would be happy.
Does this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th? Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2011, 05:16:05 PM
Does this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th? Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?
The latter. It's like going from Aristotle's logic to Frege.
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies. The 1st is good, but not mind-blowing; and then you get to the second... And then that third. :o And then... Even the 6th!
It's as awe-inspiring as Svetlanov's Mahler, only more normal.
Yay, someone on my wavelength...Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius was my single best purchase of 2010. We had a thread on it last year:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480
What are the timings for Rozh's Second? I really want to hear someone do a mad charge through that piece and strip it of its cushy romantic flab.
Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2011, 02:15:52 AM
What are the timings for Rozh's Second?
9:36, 15:00, 5:52, 14:30
Quote from: Velimir on August 11, 2011, 08:09:52 AM
9:36, 15:00, 5:52, 14:30
Darn. I'm hoping to hear something closer to 7:30, 12:30, 6:00, 13:00. I think the music could take it if only someone would try. The outer movements would sound a lot like the Third Symphony.
Just searched Amazon MP3s for shortest Symphony 2 first movements:
8.25 Kajanus
8.51 Beecham
8.52 Berglund/Helsinki
8.56 Neeme Jarvi
8.58 Valek
9.10 Jansons
Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2011, 01:46:05 PM
Darn. I'm hoping to hear something closer to 7:30, 12:30, 6:00, 13:00. I think the music could take it if only someone would try. The outer movements would sound a lot like the Third Symphony.
Why would you want it to sound like that? If Sibelius ever wrote a big-boned Late Romantic symphony, it was the 2nd.
I wonder if Brian is looking to the precedent of Collins's 1st, which is very invigorating and I believe the fastest on record.
Quote from: Velimir on August 11, 2011, 01:58:29 AM
Yay, someone on my wavelength...Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius was my single best purchase of 2010. We had a thread on it last year:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480
:D
Amusingly, up until fairly recently I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead. It's a shame he doesn't seem to record much now.
Quote from: Renfield on August 13, 2011, 10:40:25 PM
Amusingly, up until fairly recently I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead. It's a shame he doesn't seem to record much now.
He's alive and well and still giving concerts, though not as frequently as I would like him to.
The guy turned 80 this year - give him a break!
Quote from: Renfield on August 13, 2011, 10:40:25 PM
I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead.
So did I. :o Glad to hear he isn't! :)
Quote from: eyeresist on August 14, 2011, 03:38:22 AM
The guy turned 80 this year - give him a break!
When I found out he was still alive, I commented something along the lines of "he must be a lich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich) by now!"
However, he is indeed 'only' 80. And yes, he probably deserves a break.
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
Also, cross-posting from the Melodiya thread, regarding something I picked up this year: "Speaking of which, should you find the Rozhdestvensky Sibelius cycle of offer, or even at a reasonable price, and you like Sibelius at all, it's one of those unexpected 24-carat diamonds of the Melodiya catalogue; or even the Sibelius catalogue.
Short of Vänskä's uber-'authentic' cycle, I can't think of any (complete) cycle I would have before Rozhdestvensky's, much to my surprise when I acquired it. No allowances for being 'Russian-style': it's just great Sibelius, including the best 3rd I know!"
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies.
I could say similar things myself. I thought I'd reached Sibelius nirvana when I bought the Segerstam set and at last thought I'd found the performance of the first symphony I'd been seeking for decades. The telling thing is, though, in a way it merely reinforced my existing Sibelius conditioning. I didn't actually make any progress to somewhere new.
But when I got the Rozhdestvensky box, mysterious things began to happen. At first I thought it was excitingly different - but probably offering no more than a quirky second string to my mainly Segerstamian bow. But then suddenly, the 4th and the 6th (which I'd never managed to get into, in decades of listening -
suddenly I say, I was listening to these with fascination; at times significantly moved; hearing aspects of them that I'd never heard before. I listened to the 4th on three successive days, keen to get at the heart of it: responding to it now as chiefly tragic, where once I'd found it merely dull and bleak. That would have been unthinkable without this Rozhdestvensky performance to lure me on.
I've been trying to understand what the big difference is - what caused the breakthrough. It must have something to do with the Russian-ness of it perhaps. But there's a kind of beautiful but dangerous raw crispness to the soundscape of it. The music sounds as if it were born from splintered ice. I think Ruskin's valuable term, 'savageness' (which describes the kind of imperfection one gets when art is operating at its limits, perhaps even hovering close to failure) might be helpful here. When I listen to my revered Segerstam after Rozhdestvensky, he sounds imprecise, blowsy, opulent, rounded off by comparison.
I can't think of a better bit of evidence for why it's worth seeking out multiple recordings of works that have never quite kicked in for us. Immerseel did it for me with Beethoven's symphonies. Rozhdestvensky's now done it for me with Sibelius 4 and 6. Listening to them now is an entirely different experience compared to the frustratingly disappointing listenings that have punctuated most of my adult life.
Brian'll be interested in this - I bet he's got a set by now - have you Brian?
I didn't notice your return proper, Alan, apart from a 'sighting' reported by Sara. It's good to have you back. :)
Quote from: Opus106 on August 15, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
I didn't notice your return proper, Alan, apart from a 'sighting' reported by Sara. It's good to have you back. :)
What a kind thing to say. Thanks Navneeth.
I slung a Welcome back on some thread or other, Alan : )
I've heard yet another Sibelius symphony on the radio, and I'm thinking that I really want to finally buy the Vanska cycle. :)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 15, 2011, 10:43:21 AM
Brian'll be interested in this - I bet he's got a set by now - have you Brian?
;D ;D ;D
I think I mentioned somewhere else that I was seriously considering it - added it to my shopping cart at MDT - put it back on my wishlist - read your post and when you got to the description of the Fourth started thinking "oh man, really need to hear this," and then when you ask this at the end I laughed. You bet I'm interested. ;D Was put off by a couple initial reports that the set was "just" blaring Soviet loudness but yours is a very hearty rebuttal.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2011, 11:35:25 AM
I slung a Welcome back on some thread or other, Alan : )
I got it Karl, and I slung some sort of thanks back at you, there. (Wherever it was.)
Quote from: Brian on August 15, 2011, 11:53:33 AMI think I mentioned somewhere else that I was seriously considering it - added it to my shopping cart at MDT - put it back on my wishlist - read your post and when you got to the description of the Fourth started thinking "oh man, really need to hear this," and then when you ask this at the end I laughed. You bet I'm interested. ;D Was put off by a couple initial reports that the set was "just" blaring Soviet loudness but yours is a very hearty rebuttal.
I can see why those reports would be made. When I first got it, and listened to the first, there were indeed moments when I wondered if the excitement was really just the result of blaringness (let's adopt the word as ours, just for the thrill of discarding it as not useful here), but those doubts fell away the more symphonies I listened to, and the more often I listened. The point is - doesn't matter which symphony I choose, I hear more detail, more nuance, more power subtly held in check. Tell you what it's like - one of those great Venetian painters - Veronese or Titian or someone like that. They could lay a brushstroke with immense power at a single stroke, and yet with, simultaneously, the utmost sparkling delicacy. These recordings give the same sort of feel.
In the 1st movement of the fourth there's a little four-note motif that turns up now and then, and for the very first time, with Rozhdestvensky, I recognised that it's the same four-note motif that Elgar uses to begin one of his 'Windflower' tunes (first four notes of the lower example in my avatar). You can tell me it's not quite the same if you like - it might be so, and I don't mind - the point is it gave me a way in. It's a plaintive little rising sequence that seems to require an answer. And knowing how Elgar answers it, with a kind of wistful sigh (see my avatar again for the remaining three notes) makes for a fabulous comparison with the way Sibelius tackles it - utterly, utterly different. Darker. Emphatic. Even with a hint of blaringness!
I mean, seriously Brian, I never thought there'd be a day when I would listen to the 4th with this degree of fascinated attentiveness. Shoot down all this stuff in flames if you like, and call it fanciful - doesn't matter. I'm in there digging, now, with everything admittedly provisional, but with everything to play for.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 15, 2011, 01:26:27 PM
I mean, seriously Brian, I never thought there's be a day when I would listen to the 4th with this degree of fascinated attentiveness. Shoot down all this stuff in flames if you like, and call it fanciful - doesn't matter. I'm in there digging, now, with everything admittedly provisional, but with everything to play for.
Lately, I just keep listening repeatedly to the 4th, and the 1st (disc 1 of Maazel/WP). Can't get enough of it! The only symphony on that set that I skip is the 7th (I don't find Maazel/WP do it justice). For this, I go to Davis/BSO's blistering rendition of the 7th.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 15, 2011, 01:26:27 PM
I mean, seriously Brian, I never thought there'd be a day when I would listen to the 4th with this degree of fascinated attentiveness. Shoot down all this stuff in flames if you like, and call it fanciful - doesn't matter. I'm in there digging, now, with everything admittedly provisional, but with everything to play for.
I'm not going to shoot it all down in flames and call it fanciful until I know you're back for good and can't be scared off. ;) Nah, no need to of course; since this thread was last bustling (again mostly your doing! That's why we needed you back), I've been slowly discovering the Fourth for myself, even listen absolutely gripped by it sometimes (Maazel/Pittsburgh, though I suspect his performance is not actually the best but just the one that's caught my fancy). I really want to hear how Rozhdestvensky does it; when finally coming around to the piece a few months ago it seemed that the more dramatic (faster, but coincidentally?) readings helped dissolve the clouded gloom and clarify the tragedy of the symphony, just as you say.
My goodness! Alan's back. ;D And folks are discussing Sibelius again. 8) And Brian, Alan, and Ray are all digging the 4th. Way 8) !
Dave, I've never regretted purchasing any of Vänskä's Sibelius recordings. His symphony set is one of my faves--and damn near the polar opposite of Rozhdestvensky's.
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 15, 2011, 03:40:08 PM
My goodness! Alan's back. ;D And folks are discussing Sibelius again. 8) And Brian, Alan, and Ray are all digging the 4th. Way 8) !
Dave, I've never regretted purchasing any of Vänskä's Sibelius recordings. His symphony set is one of my faves--and damn near the polar opposite of Rozhdestvensky's.
Awesome Dave! I think I'll pull the trigger. :)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 15, 2011, 10:43:21 AM
But when I got the Rozhdestvensky box, mysterious things began to happen. At first I thought it was excitingly different - but probably offering no more than a quirky second string to my mainly Segerstamian bow. But then suddenly, the 4th and the 6th (which I'd never managed to get into, in decades of listening - suddenly I say, I was listening to these with fascination; at times significantly moved; hearing aspects of them that I'd never heard before. I listened to the 4th on three successive days, keen to get at the heart of it: responding to it now as chiefly tragic, where once I'd found it merely dull and bleak. That would have been unthinkable without this Rozhdestvensky performance to lure me on.
Wow, I must get this now!
Quote from: DavidW on August 15, 2011, 03:55:39 PM
Awesome Dave! I think I'll pull the trigger. :)
It's my favorite set, too, Dave. Pull it! ;D
Quote from: DavidW on August 15, 2011, 11:41:25 AM
I've heard yet another Sibelius symphony on the radio, and I'm thinking that I really want to finally buy the Vanska cycle. :)
The Vanska cycle is outstanding. This cycle came in the 15-CD set on BIS I bought a year or so ago called
The Essential Sibelius. At the time it was cheaper to buy this 15-CD set than to buy the set separately. Go figure. ???
Isn't it interesting to see this variety of response to the various available recordings? I wonder what it is about Sibelius that generates such strong polarisations? It's easy to see why it happens - there's such a marked difference from one set of performances of the symphonies to another, that there are horses for every course. But quite how this variety of interpretation comes about is a mystery to me. To recap, so far my own journey during the last 10 years has taken me as follows:
1. Sakari and the Icelanders Lively and generally OK, but missing the heights.
2. Colin Davis/LSO on RCA. Never heard Sibelius sound so tedious. Gave the set away (and apologised to the recipient).
3. Barbirolli/Halle Again, generally OK but somehow not so sparkling as I'd hoped it would be.
4. Vanska/Lahti in the BIS Essentials box. I thought at first that this was going to be the best I could get. Precise and sparkling, and yet, and yet, somewhere inside I knew I was secretly hoping for something more.
5. Segerstam/Helsinki POW! I thought THIS was IT! Blew me away. Vast, sweeping, and huge, built upon caves of ice!
But all these responses were based on a lifelong love of the 1st, 2nd. 3rd, and 5th, and a lifelong failure to come to grips with the 4th, 6th, and (to a lesser extent thanks to Brian's recent help, the 7th). That's where Rozhdestvensky's cavalry comes in, brass blaring, to change all that. I can't ask more of a conductor than to reverse my perception of music that I'd largely given up on.
But looking back at that list, and thinking about the scale of the differences, I suppose it's not surprising that we get such variety of recommendation in this area.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 15, 2011, 10:43:21 AM
I've been trying to understand what the big difference is - what caused the breakthrough. It must have something to do with the Russian-ness of it perhaps. But there's a kind of beautiful but dangerous raw crispness to the soundscape of it. The music sounds as if it were born from splintered ice. I think Ruskin's valuable term, 'savageness' (which describes the kind of imperfection one gets when art is operating at its limits, perhaps even hovering close to failure) might be helpful here. When I listen to my revered Segerstam after Rozhdestvensky, he sounds imprecise, blowsy, opulent, rounded off by comparison.
With respect to the 4th and 6th specifically, one thing Rozh does with these symphonies is get the various tempi and their relationships right so that they hang together properly. Two problematic movements are the slow mvt. of the 4th and the finale of the 6th. Often they seem disjointed or episodic, but with Rozh at the helm they flow convincing from one episode to another and add up to a convincing whole. My mind doesn't wander during these mvts. as it often does under other conductors.
Otherwise, what you call "savageness" is something that strikes me as rusticity or a down-to-earth feeling, something that reminds me of Finno-Ugric folk music. Listen to 3/ii in Rozh's account, esp. the pizzicato strings: virtually the sound of the
kantele expressed in orchestration.
Hello Alan!
As everyone's said, it's good to have you back. I have myself just returned from a long absence, and it's nice to see another familiar 'face': particularly as your characteristically passionate advocacy for the Rozhdestvensky far surpassed my efforts. :D
Regarding tempi and their relationships - what I primarily refer to when I say 'form', in music, as in 'Vänskä is a formalist conductor' - I think Velimir identifies the 'Rozh effect' quite accurately: much like Giulini, he maintains his underlying tempi very precisely, like an iron scaffold; or a cake mold, that the musicians can then fill with all the gusto they can muster, without distorting the structure. This way, you get the best of both worlds: a very well-defined reading guiding (vs. competing with) a powerful performance from the orchestra from start to finish, in manner that feels entirely natural.
Clearly - again much like Giulini in his Brahms, Beethoven and Bruckner - there are drawbacks to this, as even this kind of 'sneakily monolithic' (vs. 'Klemperer monolithic' - a big old block of shapely sound) approach robs the music of that last ounce of mercurial fluidity that Vänskä, to name the most prominent example, imbues Sibelius with. And there's less mystique, less wavering: Rozhdestvensky's 4th feels noticeably less suffocating than, say, Karajan's. But like I suggested above, it remains a great performance, becoming a gateway into the symphony for people who don't desire symphonic suffocation.
Don, John ;D thanks I'll be sure to tell you what I think of Vanska when I listen.
Alan, Segerstam was a wow moment for me too, passionate performances! I think I liked the Barbirolli more than you did, but for the older performances I liked the Bernstein cycle on columbia.
Have not heard Rozhdestvensky but I like his Shostakovich and recently got to hear his Enescu which I thought was also first rate.
Quote from: DavidW on August 16, 2011, 04:51:39 AM
Don, John ;D
A subject that Sibelius never took up. Did he?
Moving on...
Quote from: Elgarian on August 16, 2011, 12:53:22 AM
4. Vanska/Lahti in the BIS Essentials box. I thought at first that this was going to be the best I could get. Precise and sparkling, and yet, and yet, somewhere inside I knew I was secretly hoping for something more.
I'd agree with your opinion of the Vanska set. The Fifth seems to embody my reaction to the whole cycle: it's extremely well-done, avoids every single mistake on my pitifully long check-list of reasons to consign a Fifth to the bin, and puts together a rousing finale, yet for some reason after it's finished a little part of me still says it wasn't satisfied. "Secretly hoping for more" expresses that. Of course, I feel exactly the same way about Vanska's Beethoven: my critical brain keeps saying, "good...good...correct" but my heart never joins in the chorus.
I felt the same way about
The King's Speech too, so I might just be a heartless bastard. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on August 16, 2011, 04:51:39 AM
Alan, Segerstam was a wow moment for me too, passionate performances! I think I liked the Barbirolli more than you did, but for the older performances I liked the Bernstein cycle on columbia.
I haven't had a Sibelius binge since the last time Alan was 'round, but Segerstam is still my top choice in 1, 3, and 7. I'm really looking forward to hearing Rozhdestvensky's Third based on Renfield's comment and an electrifying 30-second clip over at Presto. It sounds like the extraordinary, rhythmically unstoppable Mustonen reading, but at a more sensible/mainstream tempo.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2011, 05:13:37 AM
....I might just be a heartless bastard. ;D
Me too. I admire more than I love the Vänskä cycle.
Sarge
Is there anyone else who loves Davis/BSO, especially in 7th? Good grief, I should just succomb to the pressure and be a hater of Davis/Sibelius, Rattle/anything, Emerson SQ/everything and Quartetto Italiano/Beethoven SQs, Jochum/Bruckner.
Join the hate club Ray, join it.
My other unpopular choice is this: Couldn't stand Segerstam's Sibelius' 3rd. I found it duller than dishwasher. Shoot me. Bite me!
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 07:47:47 AM
Is there anyone else who loves Davis/BSO, especially in 7th? Good grief, I should just succomb to the pressure and be a hater of Davis/Sibelius, Rattle/anything, Emerson SQ/everything and Quartetto Italiano/Beethoven SQs, Jochum/Bruckner.
Having a bad day, Ray? If it helps, I love Davis in Sibelius (even the much maligned RCA cycle) but especially the Boston 3, 6, and 7. And I love the Emerson Quartet (especially their magnificent Op.135 which does attain cosmic significance in the last movement). And the Italiano...such gorgeous playing; no one quite like them (I heard them live shortly before they disbanded...still the best chamber concert I've ever heard).
And Jochum/Bruckner....well, he does suck ;D ;)
Sarge
I, too, like Davis' Sibelius. My order of preference would be Philips, RCA, LSO Live.
(And, er, Jochum's Bruckner. ;D His DG 7th in particular.)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2011, 07:57:43 AM
Having a bad day, Ray?
:D Yeah, that about sums it up. :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2011, 07:57:43 AM
And Jochum/Bruckner....well, he does suck ;D ;)
Sarge
;D 8)
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 08:07:33 AM
;D 8)
Actually I love Jochum's 2 (DG), 4 and 9 (EMI) and 5 (Tahra). And those Masses!!!
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2011, 07:57:43 AMAnd the Italiano...such gorgeous playing; no one quite like them (I heard them live shortly before they disbanded...still the best chamber concert I've ever heard).
I'll admit I don't follow the Beethoven SQ thread, but I'd never seen anyone here criticize the Italiano.
If you ever see the Pavel Haas Quartet live, your heart will flutter... though it may not be the music. ;)
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2011, 08:10:56 AM
If you ever see the Pavel Haas Quartet live, your heart will flutter... though it may not be the music. ;)
;D ...I know what you mean.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2011, 08:14:02 AM
;D ...I know what you mean.
Sarge
Oh, just checked Google images. Me too. :D
I should check out Davis/BSO . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2011, 09:04:11 AM
I should check out Davis/BSO . . . .
Don't Karl. It's total crap. Trust me, you are way out of your element here. ;D
Pfft!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2011, 09:14:10 AM
Pfft!
:D Retarded chimps could have done a better job with Sibelius than that 'chump' Davis. :D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2011, 09:04:11 AM
I should check out Davis/BSO . . . .
Before you do, what Sibelius symphony cycles have you heard?
Maazel/Wiener Philharmoniker
Blomstedt/SFSO
Berglund/Helsinki Phil (I think)
Bernstein/NY Phil
Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker (incomplete)
Anyway, I shall literally check the Davis/BSO out, for the CDs are available at the Boston Public Library . . . risk-free listening.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2011, 09:53:59 AM
Maazel/Wiener Philharmoniker
Blomstedt/SFSO
Berglund/Helsinki Phil (I think)
Bernstein/NY Phil
Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker (incomplete)
Anyway, I shall literally check the Davis/BSO out, for the CDs are available at the Boston Public Library . . . risk-free listening.
You haven't heard Vanska, Segerstam, or Ashkenazy yet? These are three of my favorite cycles. Yes, I would definitely checkout the Colin Davis BSO cycle just so you can hear it. I don't like Colin Davis in Sibelius, except for his LSO Live cycle. His early recordings lack a lot of the power I normally associate with Sibelius's music. Interestingly enough, Davis's BSO cycle was my first Sibelius set. :)
I've heard Ashkenazy in some of the tone-poems, and I'm not mad about them.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2011, 09:59:26 AM
I've heard Ashkenazy in some of the tone-poems, and I'm not mad about them.
For the tone poems, you can't get much better than Vanska or Segerstam in my opinion. I never really turned to Ashkenazy for his readings of these works. His symphony cycle, however, is quite fine.
On a special note about Segerstam's Helsinki Philharmonic cycle on Ondine, I never cared much for his reading of the 6th. The Vanska has him beat in this work. There's a certain clumsiness in Segerstam's reading that it doesn't get off the ground or gain momentum. Vanska's reading is like an icy breeze from a lake. It glides along with a controlled force that really coasts you along like a sailboat.
What a smashing thread this was, and still is. Could I please thank everyone who's contributed in this current round of the conversation? I've read and enjoyed everyone's comments, but haven't time at the moment to respond to each one. There's something about the variety of response - the fact that we're all coming to Sibelius with different preconceptions, different expectations, different hopes, and then having different responses - that makes it actually quite thrilling to follow it all unfolding. (Ray, I salute your passion for Davis's Sibelius, Sir, even though I don't share it!)
But what I wanted to say specifically, before it gets swept away in my personal tide of rapidly-changing Sibelian events, is that I've been testing out my newfound fascination for the 4th. I think I mentioned earlier that I'd gone from Rozhdestvensky's 4th to Segerstam's and been shocked by the difference. Well, today I listened to Vanska's 4th, confident that I'd make new headway. Well, more shocks. I actually laughed in bafflement after about 5 minutes, because I was so lost. The pointers I'd picked up from Rozhdestvensky seemed to slip by me, unnoticed. I found myself thinking what rubbish I must have been talking earlier, when I spoke of the four-note motif reminiscent of Elgar's 2nd windflower theme, because I didn't seem to be hearing it - hardly at all. Or perhaps it was slipping by unnoticed, because I was finding it hard to stay interested.
Anyway, when it ended I paced around the room telling myself off! I concluded that I just mustn't have been in the right mood or something, and maybe if I'd played Rozhdestvensky's 4th I'd have been just as restless. Well, there was one way to test that - listen to Rozhdestvensky's 4th! So I did. Straight after Vanska.
Heck! It was like someone opening a window in a stuffy room. You know how it is - you think it's OK until someone actually lets the fresh air in and you realise what air is really like! It's hard to imagine that this is the same score; it's like an alternative version, with space and air and a clearer balance between all the instruments. I was now hearing my four-note Elgarian motif in lots of places - and realising that I'd missed quite a few on previous listenings, and the different sequences that follow in response.
I'm a bit worried that I seem to be turning into some sort of Rozhdestvensky freak! It's possible that I'm being swept away by the vision of the conductor rather than that of the composer, I suppose. But even if that's so, I'm intrigued by what I'm hearing, and I won't rest now until I've listened to the other 4ths that I have, to see if the emerging pattern is consistent.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 16, 2011, 01:23:52 PM
I'm a bit worried that I seem to be turning into some sort of Rozhdestvensky freak! It's possible that I'm being swept away by the vision of the conductor rather than that of the composer, I suppose. But even if that's so, I'm intrigued by what I'm hearing, and I won't rest now until I've listened to the other 4ths that I have, to see if the emerging pattern is consistent.
Allan, have you heard the
Maazel/WP Sibelius 4th? It is outstanding! :) Well, for me it is. :D
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
Allan, have you heard the Maazel/WP Sibelius 4th? It is outstanding! :) Well, for me it is. :D
No I haven't Ray, but one day I promise I will. There's
lots I haven't heard, and too much happening right now for me to assimilate properly, really!
Quote from: Elgarian on August 16, 2011, 01:31:13 PM
No I haven't Ray, but one day I promise I will. There's lots I haven't heard, and too much happening right now for me to assimilate properly, really!
That recording is like an intravenous injection of liquid nitrogen. Meant in the best possible way!
Quote from: Renfield on August 16, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
That recording is like an intravenous injection of liquid nitrogen. Meant in the best possible way!
Right from the opening chords!!
Quote from: Renfield on August 16, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
That recording is like an intravenous injection of liquid nitrogen. Meant in the best possible way!
:D That is quite the description!
Quote from: Elgarian on August 16, 2011, 01:23:52 PM
I'm a bit worried that I seem to be turning into some sort of Rozhdestvensky freak! It's possible that I'm being swept away by the vision of the conductor rather than that of the composer, I suppose. But even if that's so, I'm intrigued by what I'm hearing, and I won't rest now until I've listened to the other 4ths that I have, to see if the emerging pattern is consistent.
I haven't given Rozh's cycle the attention it deserves but I tried today. Listened to 4, 5, 6, 7. I actively dislike the Fifth--the last movement anyway. The Swan theme is rushed and silly sounding. I wanted more speed in the Sixth's opening movement but was generally quite pleased with it. Unfortunately I got distracted during the Seventh and didn't give it a proper listen. But I listened attentively to the Fourth, twice. Yeah, a great performance (and the best sound). I don't think it will replace Maazel/WP at the top of my pile but it's the only other Fourth I've heard that has a chance to do so. I'll do a comparative listen between them tomorrow. Should be interesting.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2011, 01:53:39 PM
I haven't given Rozh's cycle the attention it deserves but I tried today. Listened to 4, 5, 6, 7. I actively dislike the Fifth--the last movement anyway. The Swan theme is rushed and silly sounding. I wanted more speed in the Sixth's opening movement but was generally quite pleased with it. Unfortunately I got distracted during the Seventh and didn't give it a proper listen. But I listened attentively to the Fourth, twice. Yeah, a great performance (and the best sound). I don't think it will replace Maazel/WP at the top of my pile but it's the only other Fourth I've heard that has a chance to do so. I'll do a comparative listen between them tomorrow. Should be interesting.
Sarge
Darn, now I need to hear Rozh AND Maazel/WP's Fourths. Liquid nitrogen, huh?
Also, shame on all conductors who rush the Swan Theme. That means you too, Davis/BSO >:(
Yeah the Maazel 4th is great. :)
I've been greatly enjoying the Maazel/Pittsburgh 4th, if the Vienna recording is even more intense that's... something I gotta hear!
Quote from: DavidW on August 16, 2011, 02:08:44 PM
Yeah the Maazel 4th is great. :)
I may just have to give myself an injection tonight!!! :D
I've never warmed to Maazel's Sibelius recordings. There's something wrongheaded about the way he approached the music. I think I heard the Maazel/VPO set all the way through twice on different occasions and felt something missing in the music. Perhaps just some honest conviction from Maazel who is a conductor I've never been able to take seriously anyway. There are better cycles available.
Quote from: Brian on August 16, 2011, 02:03:53 PM
Darn, now I need to hear Rozh AND Maazel/WP's Fourths. Liquid nitrogen, huh?
Maazel, Vienna, the Fourth: unbelievable in its icy spell. That's one recording (well, there were many actually) M and I agreed about completely. Also love the Vienna First (although its been surpassed by Segerstam now).
Sarge
Quote from: Elgarian on August 16, 2011, 01:23:52 PM
But what I wanted to say specifically, before it gets swept away in my personal tide of rapidly-changing Sibelian events, is that I've been testing out my newfound fascination for the 4th.
There must be something going around. I listened the Sibelius 4th at least 4 times over the weekend. Just can't get the music out of my mind now
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 16, 2011, 07:47:47 AM
Is there anyone else who loves Davis/BSO, especially in 7th?
Well hey, I like it too, but imprinting is a factor. It was my first and only Sibelius for many years.
I'm seeing much praise for Segerstam/Helsinki. Would someone care to give an overview of this set's virtues?
Quote from: Renfield on August 16, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
That recording is like an intravenous injection of liquid nitrogen. Meant in the best possible way!
OK. I always was a sucker for liquid nitrogen, so I've ordered a set of Maazel/WP. (The economics of buying the single CD of 1st/4th separately, compared to the whole set in a nice box didn't seem to make much sense.)
But look here - this is ABSOLUTELY the VERY LAST set of Sibelius symphonies I'm EVER going to buy! Right?
Quote from: Velimir on August 16, 2011, 11:35:14 PM
I'm seeing much praise for Segerstam/Helsinki. Would someone care to give an overview of this set's virtues?
Not a full overview, but this was my preliminary response to two of the symphonies from the set (see #661 in this thread and the discussion that followed).
QuoteThe 1st is, surely, the finest (that is, closest approach to my dream version) I've ever heard. There's no shortage of what I want (ice, cold air, northern skies, windblown pines), and there's also a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. The sheer weight of the sweeping climaxes is staggering. I very much doubt that I'm going to hear a closer approach to what I seem to have been searching for than this.
The 3rd is very different - not so wild, the sense of control rather tighter. The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. I wondered how he'd tackle that somewhat 'classical' feeling that attaches itself to this symphony in places, and it seems to me that he's bang up to the job. When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. Not wild, in this case - it's the dynamism of the approaching steam train rather than the leaping tiger - but my goodness, the hair on the neck is set a-prickling and no mistake.
This box is unbelievable, and I'm wondering at this point just how much dust my other Sibelius symphonies are going to gather from here on.
Velimir, I think I'll point out that from my point of view Elgarian heard and discussed two of the three best performances of Segerstam's set - the other being the Seventh. I agree with his descriptions of 1 and 3 entirely, especially third-finale-as-freight-train and the sense that he's only barely got the First on the leash, an account that manages to marry a big lavish orchestral sound to frantic, tragic pacing and a blunt, icy pathos. Still my favorite First. I haven't heard the Second and only heard the Fourth once, but No 6 was the slightest of disappointments and No 5 actually infuriates me: it's going perfectly until the final triumphant reappearance of the swan hymn, when Segerstam doubles the tempo to deprive me of my hard-earned bliss and to get to and through the Big Silences as quickly as possible.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 02:18:30 PM
There's something wrongheaded about the way [Maazel] approached the music.
Rubbish! There's something wrongheaded about your approach to recordings you don't care for. I've owned the Maazel/Vienna set more than a decade, and (the composer talking) I know the music tolerably well; there's hardly anything "wrongheaded" at any point in the seven symphonies. Strike that nonsensical objection.
QuoteChamberNut:
:D Retarded chimps could have done a better job with Sibelius than that 'chump' Davis. :D
WHHAAAATTTT???
I cannot believe that. Davis is one of the finest Sibelians I've ever heard. He brings something to Sibelius that fits perfectly (don't ask me what that is, though). Hmmm...what have I missed that is so bad?
Johnny, our Ray was having a bit of fun there!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 04:22:11 AM
Johnny, our Ray was having a bit of fun there!
Oh good, I thought Ray had lost his senses for a moment....alas, t'was I who lost his senses on seeing such words published..
After that roller coaster ride of Vanska's 1st I can't wait to hear his Finlandia!! Today for sure. :)
Quote from: John of Glasgow on August 17, 2011, 04:24:19 AM
Oh good, I thought Ray had lost his senses for a moment....alas, t'was I who lost his senses on seeing such words published..
I do lose my senses from time to time, John. Including, yesterday. :D
Karl was right though, I was just having some fun. I'm actually a huge Colin Davis fan in general, and was making fun at everyone who likes to poo-poo Davis.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 12:35:22 AM
OK. I always was a sucker for liquid nitrogen, so I've ordered a set of Maazel/WP. (The economics of buying the single CD of 1st/4th separately, compared to the whole set in a nice box didn't seem to make much sense.)
But look here - this is ABSOLUTELY the VERY LAST set of Sibelius symphonies I'm EVER going to buy! Right?
;D
I hope you'll enjoy it. Certainly, the rest of the set is quite good too; but the 4th is the main event.
Hmm...wow, Vänskä really hits home with me! My favorite Sibelius of all. What could possibly be "missing" from it I couldn't say.
Barbirolli is also wonderful, but of course nothing like Vänskä. It's more on the distended side, thicker, and warmer.
Also love Blomstedt and Ashkenazy.
Sergerstam's recent Helsinki 4th never got off the ground for me, and I gave it many attempts. I fount it too soft grained for my taste: smooth where it should have been chiseled.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 12:35:22 AM
But look here - this is ABSOLUTELY the VERY LAST set of Sibelius symphonies I'm EVER going to buy! Right?
Right ;D
I do think every Sibelian should have Maazel/WP in their collection. His interpretations are generally swift and objective, straight to the point. No romantic overindulgence. Gramophone says, "
Maazel just realizes the score, gives you what Sibelius put down and puts it over to you with burning conviction. It is passionate, exciting, and the Vienna orchestra enters into the spirit..." 1, 4, 7 are critically acclaimed. The others are more controversial but I personally like them all (especially the Sixth, which many consider the weak link but I love the swift pace...not as fast as Davis/Boston but close). You've been grooving on Rozhdestvensky. Maazel's tempos are roughly similar so if you like that approach you should like Maazel, at least in that respect. Whether the important details--important to you--are there, well...that I can't know or promise. About the sound quality: vintage Decca analogue. What's not to like? 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Velimir on August 16, 2011, 11:35:14 PM
I'm seeing much praise for Segerstam/Helsinki. Would someone care to give an overview of this set's virtues?
Generally lush and dramatic--but not overwrought--in very good sound and with the HP sounding world class--tight ensemble play with beautiful tone from the winds and full-bodied brass, far superior to the same orchestra many years before on Berglund's second cycle.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 12:35:22 AM
OK. I always was a sucker for liquid nitrogen, so I've ordered a set of Maazel/WP. (The economics of buying the single CD of 1st/4th separately, compared to the whole set in a nice box didn't seem to make much sense.)
But look here - this is ABSOLUTELY the VERY LAST set of Sibelius symphonies I'm EVER going to buy! Right?
Given your taste, I would expect you to like this set very much. As for the very last set you'll ever buy, well, I told myself that about a dozen cycles ago! FWIW, Maazel/WP was the first cycle I owned, previously having a smattering of symphony and tone poem recordings by Karajan and Ormandy and Davis. I bought it in an effort to understand why a number of folks whose taste I respected praised Sibelius so highly. It worked. By the third or fourth time through, everything started to snap into focus. One symphony after another became my favorite. And then--partly perhaps because I listened to them all in turn several times--I began to appreciate their cohesiveness as a complete body of work chronicling the artistic and spiritual growth of one of the most remarkable artists of his time, a phenomenal genius outside the mainstream with a singular voice that speaks to me, heart and soul, like no other.
I'm so glad that you (and others) are enjoying his music so much, Alan! And I hope that the Maazel set unlocks more treasure chests for you to enjoy. 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 04:22:11 AM
Johnny, our Ray was having a bit of fun there!
Just call him "Jimmie-Ray!"
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 17, 2011, 06:38:53 AM
Sergerstam's recent Helsinki 4th never got off the ground for me, and I gave it many attempts. I fount it too soft grained for my taste: smooth where it should have been chiseled.
Ooh, interesting. That was my impression too, though coming to the 4th after decades of a kind of turbulent indifference to it (I wonder what that means?),
then having recently had it ice-picked into life by Rozhdestvensky, and
then given my empassioned admiration of Segerstam's 1 and 3, I wondered what the heck was going on when Segerstam's 4th seemed vaguely unsatisfying. "Smooth where it should have been chiselled": that describes exactly what I thought I was hearing.
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 17, 2011, 06:49:10 AM
Given your taste, I would expect you to like this set very much. As for the very last set you'll ever buy, well, I told myself that about a dozen cycles ago! FWIW, Maazel/WP was the first cycle I owned, previously having a smattering of symphony and tone poem recordings by Karajan and Ormandy and Davis. I bought it in an effort to understand why a number of folks whose taste I respected praised Sibelius so highly. It worked. By the third or fourth time through, everything started to snap into focus. One symphony after another became my favorite. And then--partly perhaps because I listened to them all in turn several times--I began to appreciate their cohesiveness as a complete body of work chronicling the artistic and spiritual growth of one of the most remarkable artists of his time, a phenomenal genius outside the mainstream with a singular voice that speaks to me, heart and soul, like no other.
I'm so glad that you (and others) are enjoying his music so much, Alan! And I hope that the Maazel set unlocks more treasure chests for you to enjoy. 8)
I listened to some samples of the Maazel before buying, Dave - stupidly short of course, but what I could sense even in those short bursts was what Sarge describes above as 'to-the-pointness'. Most particularly the bits of the 1st and 4th that I heard promised the kind of crystalline iciness that I tend to like.
I didn't need any persuading about Sibelius in the first instance. I remember my earliest hearing of the first - in a school classroom, at lunchtime, in 1964. We'd set up a musical appreciation society (bursting at the seams with about 4 members) - we met at lunchtimes a couple of times a week, and worked our way steadily through the school's library of worn-out LPs; and one day from a clear, icy sky, came this clarinet solo, followed by strings, zithering down from snow-covered pines. That was Beecham, and he set the expectation for Sibelius from that point on, though I fancy my impression of it is so clouded by legend-built remembrance that it would disappoint me horribly if I heard it now.
But it's a remarkable thing that though I rapidly scooped up 2, 3 and 5 in rapid succession, 4, 6 and 7 have had to wait over 40 years for me to begin to tune in to them (and not at all for want of trying). Never say never, I guess. And here I am awaiting my personal delivery of Maazel's liquid nitrogen, having bought a box purely for the sake of the 4th! Who'd have thought it?
(I suppose the box arrives in a special insulated container?)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
. . . And here I am awaiting my personal delivery of Maazel's liquid nitrogen. I suppose the box arrives in a special insulated container?
That's how it caught my eye at Borders, Alan, back when there was still a Borders . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 08:54:42 AM
That's how it caught my eye at Borders, Alan, back when there was still a Borders . . . .
You caught me in mid-edit, Karl. I'll leave the two versions visible so as to create a sense of slight mystery.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
And here I am awaiting my personal delivery of Maazel's liquid nitrogen, having bought a box purely for the sake of the 4th! Who'd have thought it?
(I suppose the box arrives in a special insulated container?)
Allan, my set came in
this container. They sent me a special suit and gloves as well. :D
(http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20092/China_3_liters_Liquid_Nitrogen_Container20092181258430.jpg)
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 17, 2011, 08:57:40 AM
Allan, my set came in this container. They sent me a special suit and gloves as well. :D
(http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20092/China_3_liters_Liquid_Nitrogen_Container20092181258430.jpg)
I honestly don't see how they could do all this at the price I paid, Ray.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
I honestly don't see how they could do all this at the price I paid, Ray.
'Tis true, Allan. That Maazel/WP set is a mighty bargain.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
I honestly don't see how they could do all this at the price I paid, Ray.
Because it was made in China? 8)
It poses a heck of a storage problem though. I'm thinking maybe I'll discard the insulated container and keep the CDs in the freezer.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 09:06:23 AM
It poses a heck of a storage problem though. I'm thinking maybe I'll discard the insulated container and keep the CDs in the freezer.
:D
Quote from: nairB on August 16, 2011, 08:10:56 AM
If you ever see the Pavel Haas Quartet live, your heart will flutter... though it may not be the music. ;)
*....reminiscing....* ;D
....and while I am here I might as well ask a serious question 0:)
As far as Sibelius is concerned, I only have the Kurt Sanderling boxset with the Berliner Sinfonie Orchester (Brilliant classics). Bar the second symphony, nothing else really clicked with me.
Which set would be at the polar opposite of this one for me to take a new approach of this composer please ?
Quote from: Elgarian on August 17, 2011, 08:28:02 AM
Ooh, interesting. That was my impression too, though coming to the 4th after decades of a kind of turbulent indifference to it (I wonder what that means?), then having recently had it ice-picked into life by Rozhdestvensky, and then given my empassioned admiration of Segerstam's 1 and 3, I wondered what the heck was going on when Segerstam's 4th seemed vaguely unsatisfying. "Smooth where it should have been chiselled": that describes exactly what I thought I was hearing.
Hmm...that's some food for thought, Elgarian. Because if Segerstam's 4th is the weak link in his cycle I guess I stumbled on the wrong symphony with which to make judgements. But that doesn't make my situation any better...do I
need any more Sibelius...............??
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 17, 2011, 11:48:27 AM
....and while I am here I might as well ask a serious question 0:)
As far as Sibelius is concerned, I only have the Kurt Sanderling boxset with the Berliner Sinfonie Orchester (Brilliant classics). Bar the second symphony, nothing else really clicked with me.
Which set would be at the polar opposite of this one for me to take a new approach of this composer please ?
I haven't heard Sanderling in Sibelius, but knowing his Russian-ness, and knowing him in some Beethoven and Brahms, I can only guess he's on the 'big' side interpretively and gives some pretty romantic readings of the symphonies.
If that's the case then right off I can think of two cycles which would be poles apart from him: Vänskä and Blomstedt. Both play up the austere side of the music, with wind-swept frigid landscapes and whispery plays of light. But what's most important to me is the abundance of color these two conductors whip up, no matter the temperature. I might describe it along the lines of technicolor meets the north pole. Counterintuitive, no doubt, but that's the beauty of Sibelius.
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 17, 2011, 11:48:27 AM
....and while I am here I might as well ask a serious question 0:)
As far as Sibelius is concerned, I only have the Kurt Sanderling boxset with the Berliner Sinfonie Orchester (Brilliant classics). Bar the second symphony, nothing else really clicked with me.
Which set would be at the polar opposite of this one for me to take a new approach of this composer please ?
I'd say Berglund/Helsinki is a fine middle-of-the-road set to start with.
EDIT: Can anyone give us a comparison of Segerstam's
two Sibelius cycles? (Helsinki PO vs Danish National SO)
Hm, I suppose I am accustomed to MOR as a term of disparagement . . . .
Quote from: gn i n n e h lr a k on August 18, 2011, 04:10:03 AM
Hm, I suppose I am accustomed to MOR as a term of disparagement . . . .
What does MOR mean? ???
Middle of the Road.
Idea reaches back at least to the passage in the Acopalypse which is referenced at the beginning of Dostoyevsky's The Devils: You are neither hot nor cold, but because you are lukewarm, I shall spit you out
Well middle of the road is awesome in my book. Let the music speak for itself! Best way for the newbie, perhaps best way in general. 0:)
And, as if on cue . . . by chance my shuffle has just now lit on the opening of the Seventh, performed by the Helsinki Phil under Berglund's baton . . . I love it!
Quote from: gn i n n e h lr a k on August 18, 2011, 04:55:30 AMIdea reaches back at least to the passage in the Acopalypse
Acopalypse, eh? Suddenly I have a really good idea for an action movie...
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 17, 2011, 11:48:27 AM
As far as Sibelius is concerned, I only have the Kurt Sanderling boxset with the Berliner Sinfonie Orchester (Brilliant classics). Bar the second symphony, nothing else really clicked with me.
Which set would be at the polar opposite of this one for me to take a new approach of this composer please ?
That's good. Sanderling's approach is more appropriate for the second than the others.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 17, 2011, 07:39:45 PM
I haven't heard Sanderling in Sibelius, but knowing his Russian-ness, and knowing him in some Beethoven and Brahms, I can only guess he's on the 'big' side interpretively and gives some pretty romantic readings of the symphonies.
If that's the case then right off I can think of two cycles which would be poles apart from him: Vänskä and Blomstedt. Both play up the austere side of the music, with wind-swept frigid landscapes and whispery plays of light. But what's most important to me is the abundance of color these two conductors whip up, no matter the temperature. I might describe it along the lines of technicolor meets the north pole. Counterintuitive, no doubt, but that's the beauty of Sibelius.
I have heard Sanderling (have the set). Don's right. Sometimes less is more.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 17, 2011, 10:25:40 PM
I'd say Berglund/Helsinki is a fine middle-of-the-road set to start with.
EDIT: Can anyone give us a comparison of Segerstam's two Sibelius cycles? (Helsinki PO vs Danish National SO)
Except for the at times disappointingly weak brass, I think Berglund/HPO is a very fine cycle that's on the lean side and doesn't romanticize Sibelius into mush. Segerstam is lush and much more overtly dramatic, but he doesn't romanticize Sibelius into mush, either. I've not heard all the the DNSO set but what I have is similar to the HPO set. The Danes' 5th is one of my faves...but then, I have a
lot of faves. ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 18, 2011, 05:19:12 AM
. . . I've not heard all the the DNSO set but what I have is similar to the HPO set. The Danes' 5th is one of my faves...but then, I have a lot of faves. ;)
The only Segerstam/DNSO Sibelius I've heard is a disc of tone-poems (a very nice Tapiola is the highlight for me).
Quote from: Brian on August 18, 2011, 05:16:34 AM
Acopalypse, eh? Suddenly I have a really good idea for an action movie...
Cor, what a silly pyto!
Oh, and Brian's righted again . . . no need for me to remain in retrograde . . . .
Dyslexian Heaven!
Dyslexics are entitled to some happiness, too!
I really love the Andante Festivo. That, and the Spring Song.
I think they get short shrift,... they almost remind me of Finzi, they are so beautiful.
Quote from: Papy Oli on August 17, 2011, 11:48:27 AM
As far as Sibelius is concerned, I only have the Kurt Sanderling boxset with the Berliner Sinfonie Orchester (Brilliant classics). Bar the second symphony, nothing else really clicked with me.
Which set would be at the polar opposite of this one for me to take a new approach of this composer please ?
The recommendation of Vänskä or Blomstedt is good but Vänskä is expensive. Since nothing clicked but 2 (perhaps not coincidently his most popular symphony--the one many non-Sibelians tend to like--and even conduct ;D ) I'm not sure whether any other conductor will a make difference to you. In that case I'd recommend going for different
but cheap (so you won't be wasting your money): Maazel/WP can be had for as little as £10.99 from Amazon UK sellers. Blomstedt for a few pounds more. (Berglund/Helsinki is even cheaper but I don't know it so can't yay or nay it).
Sarge
Cannot go wrong with either the Maazel or the Blomstedt IMO.
Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2011, 06:46:42 AM
I really love the Andante Festivo. That, and the Spring Song.
I think they get short shrift,... they almost remind me of Finzi, they are so beautiful.
Apropos
Spring Song: Here's a Berglund twofour (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-Works-Berglund-Jean-Sibelius/dp/B000VL9XIS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1313679000&sr=1-2) I can recommend for Papy or anyone else interested in a real bargain. Includes my favorite
Luonnotar (DavidRoss likes it too, I think). They are giving it away!
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2011, 07:01:25 AM
Apropos Spring Song: Here's a Berglund twofour (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-Works-Berglund-Jean-Sibelius/dp/B000VL9XIS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1313679000&sr=1-2) I can recommend for Papy or anyone else interested in a real bargain. Includes my favorite Luonnotar (DavidRoss likes it too, I think). They are giving it away!
Sarge
FYI most or all (?) of those recordings are packaged with the Berglund/Helsinki symphony cycle in the big EMI box set... though the price isn't quite as handsome!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2011, 04:55:30 AM
Middle of the Road.
Idea reaches back at least to the passage in the Acopalypse which is referenced at the beginning of Dostoyevsky's The Devils: You are neither hot nor cold, but because you are lukewarm, I shall spit you out
That is for me one of the most annoying axioms to come from the New Testament, especially as it is often attributed to Jesus (Revelation actually written by some guy called John of Patmos). It is the creed of an extremist, that fanaticism of any kind is morally superior to moderation. How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek? My own opinion and experience is that the moderate position is usually the best.
[/massively off topic]
From a quick Google, it seems Segerstam's later Helsinki cycle is much preferred, but I can't find any direct comparison.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2011, 04:20:48 PM
How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek?
YEAH! It's high time the MEEK got something!! [
Shaking fist].
(I seem to have woken up in Pythonesque mode this morning.)
But seriously though - if I ask myself whether I want my Sibelius to be Middle-of-the-Road, I have to reply that I really don't.
Ice and snow? Yeah,
loads! Flurries of freezing wind?
Bring it on! If I think of Segerstam and Rozhdestvensky (my current top choices), they're each of them extreme, in their way. But I think of them as wholehearted and committed (that is, positive attributes), rather than fanatical (with its negative associations).
Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2011, 12:17:28 AM
But seriously though - if I ask myself whether I want my Sibelius to be Middle-of-the-Road, I have to reply that I really don't.
Well, I didn't mean MOR in the sense of "comfortably inoffensive". But Berglund is not overly quick and cool on one hand, or warm and wallowing on the other, which strikes me as a good place to start without developing possibly erroneous preconceptions.
David Hurwitz's comparisons between Segerstam/Denmark and Segerstam/Helsinki:
"Leif Segerstam recorded a strangely mannered, soft-edged Sibelius cycle for Chandos a few years ago with the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, but his superb Sibelius recordings with the Helsinki Philharmonic (most notably a remarkable Four Legends) held out the promise that he could do better--and there's no question that he certainly has."
"Leif Segerstam and the Helsinki Philharmonic, both here and in the Fourth Symphony, achieve that mysterious alchemy that produces great Sibelius: a perfect equilibrium between incidental detail and structural cogency. ... Segerstam has picked up his pace a bit, all to the good, in comparison with his soft-focus previous Danish Radio recording for Chandos; ...he once again manages to plumb the depths of the music's colors and textures without any sacrifice in momentum."
I've noticed that nobody seems to prefer Segerstam's Danish cycle. I find it hard to believe it's really that bad.
I'm curious now about the Blomstedt. I've read raves, and also some cool reviews. It is supposed to be austere and modernistic, which I might like.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 19, 2011, 12:27:52 AM
Well, I didn't mean MOR in the sense of "comfortably inoffensive". But Berglund is not overly quick and cool on one hand, or warm and wallowing on the other, which strikes me as a good place to start without developing possibly erroneous preconceptions.
Yes I know what you mean. I wasn't so much disagreeing with you, as picking up the ball you'd dropped and running off with it in my own direction. I could imagine a first-time Sibelius listener responding badly to something as upfront and 'taking-no-prisoners' as Rozhdestvensky.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 18, 2011, 04:20:48 PM
. . . How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek?
I suppose that one might not consider the meek lukewarm, actually. Depends on how one characterizes the axis.
Much of your rant reasonably well taken, BTW. Though, mind you, it was a rant.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 02:01:21 AM
Rubbish! There's something wrongheaded about your approach to recordings you don't care for. I've owned the Maazel/Vienna set more than a decade, and (the composer talking) I know the music tolerably well; there's hardly anything "wrongheaded" at any point in the seven symphonies.
Strike that nonsensical objection.
People can't like the same things and it's impossible really because we're all so different. If you don't agree with my opinion, then that's fine, you don't have to, but don't call my opinion rubbish when it's nothing more than a different view than your own. I have spent a lot of time with Sibelius's music, absorbing it, and studying about his life just as much as anyone on this thread has probably done. I love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we? Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of recordings you like that I dislike and vice versa.
On another note, I bought my 18th Sibelius symphony cycle a few days ago and I'm curious has anybody heard the Sakari Oramo set on Erato? The reviews seem to be quite mixed, but I was wondering if people, who have heard his Sibelius recordings, could tell me their own views of them?
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 19, 2011, 09:34:02 PM
People can't like the same things and it's impossible really because we're all so different. If you don't agree with my opinion, then that's fine, you don't have to, but don't call my opinion rubbish when it's nothing more than a different view than your own. I have spent a lot of time with Sibelius's music, absorbing it, and studying about his life just as much as anyone on this thread has probably done. I love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we? Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of recordings you like that I dislike and vice versa.
I have to say, John, that this is one of the greatest posts you have made, and I 100% agree with it.
This is difficult for me to express, as I admire both
Karl and your posts,
John. And I admire and appreciate both your opinions, knowledge and feedback on music.
:)
thank you all for the recommendations on the last 2 pages, i'll sample them and see how it goes :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 19, 2011, 09:34:02 PMI love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we?
But "I don't like Maazel's Sibelius" is a very different proposition from "Maazel's Sibelius is wrong-headed." We can respect and even want to understand the former, but the latter it's open season for arguing against.
I'm aware that I've come in on the end of this, but just to say I do like Segerstam's Danish RSO version of 'Tapiola' on Chandos - this is my favourite work by Sibelius. His Helsinki version on Ondine maybe my all time favourite version. I just have a new Brilliant set of 'Complete Symphonic Poems' with the Moscow PO conducted by Vassily Sinaisky, with a marvellously expansive and deeply felt Tapiola. I think that the most underrated sibelian was Sir Alexander Gibson.
Quote from: Brian on August 20, 2011, 12:34:36 AM
But "I don't like Maazel's Sibelius" is a very different proposition from "Maazel's Sibelius is wrong-headed." We can respect and even want to understand the former, but the latter it's open season for arguing against.
Brian (praise be to he) speaks the truth. Much of the bad temper that develops on internet forums is unnecessary, and arises from person B responding not to what person A actually meant, but to what he
thinks person A meant (either through misreading, or through A's imperfect expression of his thoughts). Here we have a classic example. Mirror Image's
most recent post (#948) is a model of reason and clarity, which few would disagree with and most would defend, including Karl!
Now, Ladies and (mostly) Gentlemen. I hope it won't be long now before my ordered Maazel set arrives, and THEN
we will know THE TRUTH ABOUT IT I shall find out whether I like it.
Meanwhile .....
I listened to Barbirolli's 4th yesterday (remember, I'm on a 4th symphony odyssey at present) and discovered how easy it is to confuse and bewilder myself. I was surprised to find that I got very involved with the first movement. I could hear all the detailed articulations that I'd so valued in Rozhdestvensky's account, admittedly with a good deal less ice and snow, and yet still this warmer kind of wildness seemed more than acceptable. It didn't last, unfortunately, and I found my attention drifting frequently before the symphony reached its end. But my goodness, I continue to be amazed by the very substantial differences to be perceived among these various recordings. With regard to the 4th, I shall soon be in the position of the art lover who knows a lot about art but doesn't know what he likes.
The 1st Symphony (my-best-and-longest-loved) was on the same CD, so I played that immediately afterwards, but it confirmed me in my existing view that Barbirolli's Sibelius, worthy though it is (and I'm sure the favourite of many and for good reason) isn't really what I'm after. Sometimes - this may sound foolish, but I'll say it - I think he makes parts of his Sibelius sound just a bit like Elgar or Vaughan Williams; that is, he does inject a kind of 'Northerness' into the feeling of the music (something I responded to very strongly when I was but a lad), but it's not quite an Arctic Northernness: the bleakness of Pennine moorland rather than Finnish snowfields.
But sometimes I just talk nonsense, don't I?
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2011, 10:38:22 PM
I have to say, John, that this is one of the greatest posts you have made, and I 100% agree with it.
This is difficult for me to express, as I admire both Karl and your posts, John. And I admire and appreciate both your opinions, knowledge and feedback on music.
:)
Thanks Ray, but I wasn't exactly stricken with joy when I wrote that response to Karl and more than anything I don't like getting into unnecessary arguments with other forum members, but I suppose that I was asking for it. So I understand Karl's position and he had every right to call me out on my opinion. The only thing I didn't agree with was him calling my opinion rubbish.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 20, 2011, 12:35:07 AMI just have a new Brilliant set of 'Complete Symphonic Poems' with the Moscow PO conducted by Vassily Sinaisky, with a marvellously expansive and deeply felt Tapiola..
I was wondering about this 3-CD set, Jeffrey. It's quite an inexpensive set. How is the rest of the set?
This, for those interested, is the set Jeffrey is taking about:
[asin]B004J80CZ2[/asin]
Quote from: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
it won't be long now before my ordered Maazel set arrives, and THEN we will know THE TRUTH ABOUT IT I shall find out whether I like it.
8)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 20, 2011, 01:19:17 AM
The 1st Symphony (my-best-and-longest-loved) was on the same CD, so I played that immediately afterwards, but it confirmed me in my existing view that Barbirolli's Sibelius, worthy though it is (and I'm sure the favourite of many and for good reason) isn't really what I'm after. Sometimes - this may sound foolish, but I'll say it - I think he makes parts of his Sibelius sound just a bit like Elgar or Vaughan Williams; that is, he does inject a kind of 'Northerness' into the feeling of the music (something I responded to very strongly when I was but a lad), but it's not quite an Arctic Northernness: the bleakness of Pennine moorland rather than Finnish snowfields.
My recollection of Barbirolli in the 1st (and it only a recollection, as I don't have the set to hand), is that the finale was strikingly Italianate! By which I mean operatic, by which I mean very 'songful'.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 21, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
My recollection of Barbirolli in the 1st (and it only a recollection, as I don't have the set to hand), is that the finale was strikingly Italianate! By which I mean operatic, by which I mean very 'songful'.
I think that's the most apt descriptor I've come across for Barbirolli's Sibelius. Seen that way, it's no wonder it tends to be a 'nice to experience every once in a while' kind of thing, but somehow not a first choice for many (any?) of us.
This recent article by Leon Botstein: The Transformative Paradoxes of Jean Sibelius (http://chronicle.com/article/The-Transformative-Paradoxes/128563)
I confess I don't know a lot about Sibelius's composition methods, but some of what Botstein says seems wrong to me:
Quote... Sibelius [emancipated] music from language. His work is strikingly architectural, rather than paralleling in music the syntax, semantics, and grammar of language.
Admittedly, Botstein is contrasting Sibelius with Mahler here, but still, it seems a bit much to say Sibelius was the first to use a non-verbal based musical grammar. Dare I mention a little thing called SONATA FORM? The symphonic form itself is quite architectural when contrasted with opera or lieder.
Quote[Sibelius's music] is concerned primarily with large forms and spaces, rather than melodic and harmonic variation and dialogue, much less outright literary inspiration.
Curiously, melodic and harmonic variation strike me as being essential to Sibelius's music. And he is of course known for using melodic "cells", contrasted against shifting harmonies.
What are these "large forms and spaces"? Is this a reference to Sibelius's use of suspended chords? Botstein seems here to be presenting vaguely expressed feeling as solid compositional fact.
As for rejection of literary inspiration, Botstein's very article ends with the poetic quotation appended to the score of Tapiola. Never mind that Sibelius wrote theatre music and a number of choral works including the Kullervo, and famously evoked a flight of swans in the finale of the 5th symphony.
QuoteFor Sibelius, aggregate sounds—as much as melodies and themes—become constituent elements of composition. Orchestration becomes a basic element, not something one completes after a work is written. The music is more atmospheric than discursive.
Since it is my understanding that Sibelius worked up his orchestral works in short score, surely he DID complete his orchestration AFTER writing the work. He was not one of these Johnny-come-latelies who spends most of his time creating sounds, and then tries to package the result as a completed work.
Thanks for letting me share :)
===
Addendum: I've been listening through Berglund's Helsinki cycle lately. To be honest, I find his 5th rather middling (Schmidt is my reference), and his 6th is not the one to convince me of this work. However, he really is terrific in the first three, especially the first two (his 3rd could be broader for my tastes). This 1st and 2nd could be benchmarks.
I haven't got around to his 4th and 7th yet.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 22, 2011, 06:18:00 PM...Berglund's 6th is not the one to convince me of this work.
You should hear Vanska and Karajan. Two completely valid approaches to the work and both knockout performances. I was never convinced of the 6th until I heard these two performances.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 22, 2011, 06:18:00 PM
Admittedly, Botstein is contrasting Sibelius with Mahler here, but still, it seems a bit much to say Sibelius was the first to use a non-verbal based musical grammar. Dare I mention a little thing called SONATA FORM?
You'd be depending on a distinction between verbal and rhetorical: sonata design does relate to rhetoric . . . [Thesis & Ant-thesis]:Exposition::Synthesis:Recapitulation. But overall, I think you have a good quarrel with Botstein.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 10:13:12 PM
You should hear Vanska and Karajan. Two completely valid approaches to the work and both knockout performances. I was never convinced of the 6th until I heard these two performances.
Must allow that HvK did a good job with the Sixth. Although, I like Berglund's better yet. Chacun à son goût . . . .
It should be noted that there are four Karajan studio 5ths in the catalogue (plus at least one live recording), and I think he was contemplating making another one, around the time he died. I presume most (all?) of you are talking about the DG. :)
My Maazel box arrived this morning. However, it finds me up to my knees, not in snow and ice, but in wallpaper paste and paint. (Ooooh, I hate redecorating, with a deep loathing.) Anyway, point is, I now have the box and will give the 4th a careful listen just as soon as I can find the hifi underneath all these wallpaper strippings....
Quote from: Elgarian on August 24, 2011, 12:48:34 PM
My Maazel box arrived this morning. However, it finds me up to my knees, not in snow and ice, but in wallpaper paste and paint. (Ooooh, I hate redecorating, with a deep loathing.) Anyway, point is, I now have the box and will give the 4th a careful listen just as soon as I can find the hifi underneath all these wallpaper strippings....
At least you have some 'friends' to keep you company. Now if only they would do some of the 'dirty work'... ;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 23, 2011, 04:42:11 AM
You'd be depending on a distinction between verbal and rhetorical: sonata design does relate to rhetoric . . . [Thesis & Ant-thesis]:Exposition::Synthesis:Recapitulation. But overall, I think you have a good quarrel with Botstein.
Validation!
I got out my Barbirolli set last night and listened to the disc of non-symphony orchestral. All very good stuff! Some of the Halle's better work.
Tonight my mom heard I'd been to a Prom concert of Sibelius, Nielsen, and Grieg, and she shuddered. "Ugh, the Nordics... their music is all so bloodless and cold." I immediately raced to my collection, whipped out a disc of Grieg's Piano Concerto and Symphonic Dances, and busted that myth.
...What Sibelius would be a similarly appropriate mythbuster? I'm contemplating the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. The opening of the Violin Concerto is a little frosty, I'll admit...
Listening to a ton of Sibelius lately I think the least frosty might be the Lemminkäinen Suite which has a wide range of emotion, and beautiful melodies it should be an easy win. Out of the symphonies only I would go with the 5th for least frosty.
And just wanted to add Brian I would be looking more at the tone poems than the symphonies.
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
The opening of the Violin Concerto is a little frosty, I'll admit...
IMHO usually not frosty
enough. The whole thing is usually given with too much warmth for my liking.
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
Tonight my mom heard I'd been to a Prom concert of Sibelius, Nielsen, and Grieg, and she shuddered. "Ugh, the Nordics... their music is all so bloodless and cold." I immediately raced to my collection, whipped out a disc of Grieg's Piano Concerto and Symphonic Dances, and busted that myth.
...What Sibelius would be a similarly appropriate mythbuster? I'm contemplating the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. The opening of the Violin Concerto is a little frosty, I'll admit...
Sorry, Brian, but your Mom needs to have her hearing checked. ;) Sibelius...bloodless? Cold? His music has a lot of warmth in it and the passion, although in some instances, subdued, but sometimes it's what isn't said in Sibelius that has more impact. Let your Mom hear
Pohjola's Daughter or
Kullervo. Nothing icy and frosty about these works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 24, 2011, 07:53:54 PM
Sorry, Brian, but your Mom needs to have her hearing checked. ;) Sibelius...bloodless? Cold? His music has a lot of warmth in it and the passion, although in some instances, subdued, but sometimes it's what isn't said in Sibelius that has more impact. Let your Mom hear Pohjola's Daughter or Kullervo. Nothing icy and frosty about these works.
Aw, I should defend her a little bit - she loves the Big Romantics and good tunes, good architecture, etc. Grieg's Piano Concerto knocked her out - though she'd heard it before and forgot it was Grieg. She usually prefers really emotionally 'profound' musical experiences to be in concert and home listening to be more on the 'pleasing' side, but that's a for wide definition of 'pleasing.' This is, after all, the same mom who sent me a glowing e-mail about how much she loved tuning in to the Proms performance of Havergal Brian's "Gothic."
I actually haven't heard the full Lemminkäinen in a long time. Karelia seems an all-too-obvious choice. Pohjola's Daughter is definitely a good one too.
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 07:57:34 PM
she loves the Big Romantics and good tunes
Wouldn't the second symphony fit the bill? It's so packed with great tunes, and they're such BIG tunes, that the frosting might seem more like marzipan once you're into it.
(You realise that I'm starting a drive to get Sibelius better-known in cake-decorating circles.)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 24, 2011, 07:53:54 PM
Sibelius...bloodless? Cold? His music has a lot of warmth in it and the passion, although in some instances, subdued, but sometimes it's what isn't said in Sibelius that has more impact. Let your Mom hear Pohjola's Daughter or Kullervo. Nothing icy and frosty about these works.
I like Glenn Gould's description of Sibelius: "a passionate but anti-sensual composer."
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
...What Sibelius would be a similarly appropriate mythbuster? I'm contemplating the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.
I'd go with the Third. And perhaps Night-Ride & Sunrise.
Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 07:57:34 PM
I actually haven't heard the full Lemminkäinen in a long time. Karelia seems an all-too-obvious choice. Pohjola's Daughter is definitely a good one too.
Yup Karelia and Pohjola's Daughter are great choices! :)
Maazel's 4th
Listened to this while having my lunch today; or rather, while repeatedly stopping eating my lunch in order to listen more intently.
I'd like to leave Rozhdestvensky's aside here. I haven't listened to them back to back (I don't think I want to), and the big point is that this Maazel performance is the only other except the Rozhdestvensky that has made a serious impact on me. I've no idea which is 'better'; I know I want both.
I remember thinking that Rozhdestvensky's recording was the first performance I'd ever heard that permitted me to experience the 4th as tragic, rather than merely bleak and depressing. Maazel's is something else again. Darker, I think; but also more like life as we live it in its starkest moments. I think, by the way, that one of the reasons why I couldn't click with the 4th when younger is that I hadn't experienced enough. The shock of listening to Maazel's performance was a shock of recognition - of knowing that I myself have lived an equivalent of this music. I'm thinking of those times when the light (for whatever reason - serious illness, loss, etc) seems to have gone out of life permanently. So we live against that backdrop, and yet there are times when we momentarily forget, and out of the darkness something rises - a fond memory, a fleeting hope - and we clutch at it, only for it to disintegrate when we remember that after all, everything is still desperate, nothing has changed, life can never be the same again after this. I'm reminded of CS Lewis's words after the death of his wife: 'No one ever told me that grief feels so much like fear.'
A kind of equivalent of that lived experience seems to be going on through the music. One thing that struck me was how sharply focused the musical 'incidents' are. They rise from darkness, or a kind of semi-vacant space, and then merge back into it. Nothing ever seems resolved, yet the hope of resolution is continually held out.
I can already see that I'm not doing a good job here, because first, I'm talking only about how I felt, not about the music; but also because I'm making it sound so dark that one might wonder why anyone would want to listen to it. But actually, it isn't depressing music. That's the message of Maazel (or of Rozhdestvensky). That's what makes the difference. It's the same kind of effect that Ted Hughes talks about when he writes poems about dead lambs: the aim is not to wallow in despair, but to learn from this dark experience and lift it into a realm where it can become healing and energising. Art can do that - that's the point.
And the only resolution possible in the 4th symphony is the one we get at the very end. No grand summing up. No bluster, no great Romantic gestures full of windiness and storm. Just open-ended. An acceptance that things are as they are, and life goes on. Well, I've never really understood that till now - which is a measure of Maazel's achievement, I guess.
My thanks to those who recommended it: Ray, Sarge, Karl, Renfield, and anyone else I might have missed. Even if everything else in the box is a dud, it's worth having it for this.
[Hey Brian - you need this one as well.]
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Alan, on Maazel's 4th. Did you enjoy the liquid nitrogen container it came in? :D
Happy to hear that you enjoyed the performance! :)
Quote from: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 06:34:48 AM
The shock of listening to Maazel's performance was a shock of recognition - of knowing that I myself have lived an equivalent of this music. I'm thinking of those times when the light (for whatever reason - serious illness, loss, etc) seems to have gone out of life permanently. So we live against that backdrop, and yet there are times when we momentarily forget, and out of the darkness something rises - a fond memory, a fleeting hope - and we clutch at it, only for it to disintegrate when we remember that after all, everything is still desperate, nothing has changed, life can never be the same again after this. I'm reminded of CS Lewis's words after the death of his wife: 'No one ever told me that grief feels so much like fear.'
[...]
And the only resolution possible in the 4th symphony is the one we get at the very end. No grand summing up. No bluster, no great Romantic gestures full of windiness and storm. Just open-ended. An acceptance that things are as they are, and life goes on.
That's it, those two paragraphs of yours nail it (as usual): that's the Sibelius 4th.
For what it's worth, that cold void at the symphony's heart that Maazel so intensifies (cf. 'liquid nitrogen') is something Karajan also puts me in touch with, in his way. For me, only he and Maazel have ever fully managed it.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 06:34:48 AM
My thanks to those who recommended it: Ray, Sarge, Karl, Renfield, and anyone else I might have missed. Even if everything else in the box is a dud, it's worth having it for this.
You're welcome. I'm just glad some good came out of that ludicrous liquid nitrogen metaphor! ;D But besides the joke, this is surely a small thing, next to all the (Elgar, and other) recordings you've helped many of us (re)discover. :)
I've just completed 50 pages of close analysis of the relevance of the liquid nitrogen metaphor, ready for posting. And now you tell me it was a joke?
Quote from: Renfield on August 25, 2011, 07:15:27 AM
For what it's worth, that cold void at the symphony's heart that Maazel so intensifies (cf. 'liquid nitrogen') is something Karajan also puts me in touch with, in his way. For me, only he and Maazel have ever fully managed it.
Yes, that cold void is there in the Karajan. I have always loved his interpretation. Alan's sensitive analysis is indeed excellent. I find the ending of the 4th not as neutrally open-ended, though. I have the sense of darkness closing in, with a bird crying a final cryptic farewell...
Nice to see Okko Kamu back doing Sibelius - I had not been aware of him for some time and rememember how highly regarded his DGG recording of Sibelius Symphony No 3 was (oddly Karajan never recorded this symphony, although he did all the rest I think).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Tempest-Lahti-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B0055ISAFE/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1314350299&sr=1-1
Quote from: vandermolen on August 26, 2011, 01:33:52 AM
Nice to see Okko Kamu back doing Sibelius - I had not been aware of him for some time and rememember how highly regarded his DGG recording of Sibelius Symphony No 3 was (oddly Karajan never recorded this symphony, although he did all the rest I think).
That Third was an important part of Mrs. Rock's development as a Sibelian. I bought her the DG Kamu/Karajan box of LPs shortly after we met. Kamu conducted the first three symphonies. She liked 1 and 2 but fell absolutely in love with the Third. Wore it out 8)
Sarge
More love for the Third, here. Curiously, it's one of the few Sibelius symphonies which we've heard the band play live at Symphony Hall here in Boston!
Quote from: Elgarian on August 25, 2011, 12:18:22 PM
I've just completed 50 pages of close analysis of the relevance of the liquid nitrogen metaphor, ready for posting. And now you tell me it was a joke?
Of
course it's a joke: everyone knows liquid helium is the new standard!
Re: the 3rd, I honestly wasn't too impressed by it until I heard Davis' Boston recording; now my 2nd favourite, after Rozh.
Quote from: Renfield on August 26, 2011, 08:32:55 AM
Of course it's a joke: everyone knows liquid helium is the new standard!
Headline: "Physicists ridicule suggestion that some performances of Sibelius's symphonies achieve musical temperatures below Absolute Zero."
Seriously though: it occurs to me that the purchase of multiple sets of Sibelius symphonies is paying off in ways I never contemplated. I
thought I was trying to find more satisfying interpretations of the symphonies I already loved (1, 2, 3, 5). I
didn't expect that by listening to alternative interpretations I'd actually find myself able to listen with deep satisfaction to symphonies that had remained impenetrable for several decades (4, 6, 7) . An elementary misconception, maybe - but better to learn it later than never.
Most gratifying, Alan.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 26, 2011, 11:35:21 AMI didn't expect that by listening to alternative interpretations I'd actually find myself able to listen with deep satisfaction to symphonies that had remained impenetrable for several decades (4, 6, 7) . An elementary misconception, maybe - but better to learn it later than never.
Lucky you. The one symphony still closed to me is 6. I
had the same problem with RVW 5 - no drama there, so nothing at stake.... It took me decades - aided by some
cognoscenti here on GMG - to discover the subtle tension that is actually there. I hope Sibelius 6 will reveal its secrets, too, one day!
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
I hope Sibelius 6 will reveal its secrets, too, one day!
I should explain that I haven't yet
seriously tackled the 6th, Johan. But I listened half-heartedly to Rozhdestvensky's 6th the other day, and I could tell (even though too often distracted at the time) that the revelations there were likely to be just as telling as they had been with his 4th. It just wasn't the work that I'd thought it was, it seemed!
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
Lucky you. The one symphony still closed to me is 6. I had the same problem with RVW 5 - no drama there, so nothing at stake.... It took me decades - aided by some cognoscenti here on GMG - to discover the subtle tension that is actually there. I hope Sibelius 6 will reveal its secrets, too, one day!
No 6 is one of my favourites - I also think that it was one of Vaughan Williams's favourites too. I first know it through Anthony Collins's fine old Decca Eclipse LP - a wonderful performance, so maybe worth trying to track it down - it has a unique atmosphere I think - I kind of wistful sadness (in places) I think and a wonderful sense of nature (like all Sibelius). Thanks Sarge and Karl for your comments about Symphony No 3. Sibelius becomes Sibelius in that symphony and I love the last movement.
I love the 6th also. But as with other listeners, it took me a while to figure out. It's a piece that gradually creeps up on you, not one that hits you over the head.
Sibelius wrote it under some early-music influence. He had been studying Renaissance polyphony (Palestrina in particular), and this shows up, above all in the opening several minutes. It's also one of those odd ducks, a multi-movement symphony without a real slow movement.
I think the 2nd mvt. of this symphony, with its shifting, mysterious, rippling character, is my all-time favorite Sibelius movement. On a trip to Karelia a few years ago, it kept popping into my head, almost as if springing from the landscape.
Quote from: Velimir on August 28, 2011, 11:21:14 PM
Sibelius wrote it under some early-music influence. He had been studying Renaissance polyphony (Palestrina in particular), and this shows up, above all in the opening several minutes. It's also one of those odd ducks, a multi-movement symphony without a real slow movement.
As far as I can tell, people never mention the obvious Classical character of the 3rd, which surprises me. You could easily pair it with a work of Mozart or Haydn.
Quote from: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 11:29:02 PM
As far as I can tell, people never mention the obvious Classical character of the 3rd, which surprises me. You could easily pair it with a work of Mozart or Haydn.
Yes. That's how I hear it: it's Sibelius' classical symphony. And perhaps it was no coincidence that the performance that finally opened up the Sixth to me was the Philips recording conducted by Colin Davis, a great, great conductor of Haydn and Mozart.
Sarge
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
Lucky you. The one symphony still closed to me is 6. I had the same problem with RVW 5...It took me decades...
Brothers in (not arms) but puzzlement. Those two symphonies eluded me for decades too as you know.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 06:48:02 AM
Brothers in (not arms) but puzzlement. Those two symphonies eluded me for decades too as you know.
Sarge
You're just full of confessions today Sarge! :D
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2011, 07:21:04 AM
You're just full of confessions today Sarge! :D
I know....I've had some worries lately about the future of my soul and decided to start making amends ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2011, 06:48:02 AM
Brothers in (not arms) but puzzlement. Those two symphonies eluded me for decades too as you know.
Sarge
Yes, I know. The pain of it still haunts me... ;D So you have 'cracked' No. 6?! Which performance?
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 10:39:32 AM
Yes, I know. The pain of it still haunts me... ;D So you have 'cracked' No. 6?! Which performance?
The answer appears in message 996 :)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2011, 07:14:51 AM
The answer appears in message 996
Sarge
Stupid of me. Was that my first 'senior moment' at 50, I wonder... I think that Colin Davis was my first Sibelius conductor, too. I remember a box of LPs I borrowed a few times from the library, a long time ago. But 2, 3, 5 and 7 were the symphonies I took to first. No. 4 came courtesy of Karajan. And the Sixth still bores me... I notice I haven't mentioned the First. I like it, but I don't listen to it very often. My FFF (four firm favorites, acronym by me) are 3, 4, 5 and 7...
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 07:30:37 AM
Stupid of me. Was that my first 'senior moment' at 50, I wonder...
The first of many...you have much to look forward to :D
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 07:30:37 AM
I think that Colin Davis was my first Sibelius conductor, too. I remember a box of LPs I borrowed a few times from the library, a long time ago. But 2, 3, 5 and 7 were the symphonies I took to first. No. 4 came courtesy of Karajan. And the Sixth still bores me... I notice I haven't mentioned the First. I like it, but I don't listen to it very often. My FFF (four firm favorites, acronym by me) are 3, 4, 5 and 7...
Well, if the Sixth bores you, Davis has the advantage of getting through it faster than anyone except Maazel/Vienna (faster than anyone in my collection, anyway). At least you won't be bored quite so long ;D
Davis/Boston 7:51 4:30 3:45 8:21 (24:27)
Berglund/COE 7:54 6:09 4:10 10:04
Bernstein/New York 8:03 5:32 3:54 8:57
Järvi/Gothenburg 8:05 6:02 3:44 9:15
Maazel/Vienna 8:24 4:03 3:02 8:42 (24:11)
Davis/LSO (Live) 8:27 4:50 3:41 8:49
Vänskä/Lahti 8:28 6:29 3:23 8:19
Davis/LSO (RCA) 8:36 4:40 3:36 9:03
Inkinen/New Zealand 8:43 6:19 3:46 10:20
Sanderling/Berlin RSO 9:02 7:02 3:25 9:50
Sarkari/Iceland 9:10 6:59 3:40 10:33
Maazel/Pittsburgh 9:20 5:22 3:28 9:11
Barbirolli/Hallé 9:22 6:55 3:43 9:52
Askenazy/Philharmonia 9:23 5:42 3:54 9:17
Blomstedt/San Francisco 9:24 6:28 3:33 10:23
Segerstam/Helsinki 9:27 6:08 3:57 10:39
Berglund/Bournemouth 9:33 6:23 4:04 11:31
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow 9:51 4:46 3:51 9:24
What grabbed my attention when I finally listened to Davis was how he played the final bars exactly as Sibelius asked (no grand slowing down like many conductors) with a return to Tempo I, making the sudden end even more startling, making it sound even stranger than usual (I like MI's use of enigmatic). And then he plays the Allegretto at a swift clip. For me that sounds perfect: there is no real slow movement even though many conductors insist on one (Blomstedt, Sanderling Berglund, Vänskä, etc). Davis integrates the four movements better than anyone, I think.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
The first of many...you have much to look forward to :D
Happy days are here again... ;D
QuoteWell, if the Sixth bores you, Davis has the advantage of getting through it faster than anyone except Maazel/Vienna (faster than anyone in my collection, anyway). At least you won't be bored quite so long ;D
(...)
What grabbed my attention when I finally listened to Davis was how he played the final bars exactly as Sibelius asked (no grand slowing down like many conductors) with a return to Tempo I, making the sudden end even more startling, making it sound even stranger than usual (I like MI's use of enigmatic). And then he plays the Allegretto at a swift clip. For me that sounds perfect: there is no real slow movement even though many conductors insist on one (Blomstedt, Sanderling Berglund, Vänskä, etc). Davis integrates the four movements better than anyone, I think.
Very illuminating, Sarge. Thanks!
I know what to do now - get the Davis on vinyl and play it at 45 rpm. :D (Just kidding)
The Kamu Sibelius CD is very good - a great programme (The Tempest overtures and suites together with The Bard and Tapiola). I loved the 'Berceuse' from The Tempest Suite No 1 - the BIS recording is excellent and I enjoyed all the performances - Tapiola, all the more affecting for being slightly understated.
[asin]B0055ISAFE[/asin]
Enjoying this No. 2 tonight:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416wPP0x5nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Just hacking around on the net and it looks like Toscanini only tackled the 2nd and 4th of the cycle, but the 2nd he recorded three times.:
http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~toshome/main/Discographyfrm5.htm
MusicWeb just published one of my favorites of the CD reviews I have written. It's a solo piano arrangement of Symphonies 2 and 5 and I took a few words to discuss why, exactly, I feel the piano arrangements are such failures (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Sibelius_sys25_ODE11792.htm). In short: because Sibelius is a genius.
Quoted below are a few of the most relevant excerpts.
QuoteWithout the orchestral forces for which they were written, the Sibelius symphonies fail. That's an awe-inspiring testament to the far-sighted brilliance of the composer's scoring, but it's bad news for this CD....
There's no better example of this than the first movement of the Fifth Symphony. The movement presents a theme, four notes long, in the first bars, then echoes, rearranges, extends, and trims those four notes for a near-endless series of variations. In the first minute alone the theme is traded between French horns, flutes, clarinets, oboes, and back to the clarinets and flutes again. After the massive transition point to the scherzo, the trumpets take the theme, then pass it to the flutes and violins, then to all the winds again, back to the trumpet, over to the horns, then the violins and flutes again. It's the subtle variations which power the drama, and it's the changes in instrumentation which allow the variations to work. The conversation among orchestra members, all speaking the same words in different ways, is what makes this movement both odd and gripping: it's almost like a Beckett experiment, a single sentence spoken a hundred times in a hundred ways.
What we'd expect, then, is that if all of these statements of the motto theme were played on a piano, more or less in the same register most of the time, then the whole movement would fall flat on its face. And indeed this is exactly what happens. On a piano, with all the winds being transcribed to the same stretch of keys, hearing the same motif over and over is achingly boring.
Another example of the orchestral essence of the score is more surprising: the transition to the scherzo makes no musical sense on the piano. Why does it happen then, and not earlier or later? Sibelius, in his original score, uses two tricks here: (a) dramatic crescendo from the bassoon solo to the subsequent turbulence, which signals to us that a major change is about to occur, and (b) long sustained notes in the strings which heighten the tension and "tie" the brass chords together. The sudden uptick in tempo and return of the original theme, blazing forth on trumpets, feels natural rather than forced because it dissolves an incredible amount of tension. On the piano, the buildup is largely absent - the crescendo doesn't have much room to grow since Sigfridsson can't play quietly anyway - and the sense of continuity is disrupted by the piano's inability to sustain those string notes. As a result the moment actually doesn't make sense: it feels like an unnatural lurch backwards, the change in tempo an unconvincing rupture, the new start arbitrary. The formal innovation of this moment is predicated on the capabilities of a symphony orchestra; reduced to piano, the movement is a failure.
The necessity of the orchestra isn't surprising for the daring, original Fifth Symphony, but [pianist-arranger Henri] Sigfridsson also conclusively demonstrates that the more overtly romantic Second is irreconcilably orchestral at its roots. Listen to the opening of the finale: with a full orchestra, we have a tuba scooping out low notes and trumpets on high, creating a massive spatial differentiation: the music feels like a tall building with different sounds coming from different floors. The silence of much of the orchestra also gives us a sense of emptiness or hollowness. All of this is lost on the piano, of course, because both hands are at work, they're not in extremely high and low registers, and therefore the passage doesn't sound at all out of the ordinary.
The booklet notes write that Jean Sibelius conceived of his music in purely orchestral terms, writing for orchestra in his head, rather than composing at the piano in the style of, say, Brahms. The booklet writers, as well as arrangers Sigfridsson and Karl Ekman, appear to believe that Sibelius' bypass around the piano results in vivid, colorful orchestration which is hard for a piano to replicate. What they fail to understand is that Sibelius's writing for orchestra also has structural, rhetorical implications which are hard for a piano to replicate. The sound of the orchestra is not the clothing in which Sibelius dresses his musical ambition: it is a vital organ. It is the heart.
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2011, 12:40:36 PM
MusicWeb just published one of my favorites of the CD reviews I have written. It's a solo piano arrangement of Symphonies 2 and 5 and I took a few words to discuss why, exactly, I feel the piano arrangements are such failures (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Sibelius_sys25_ODE11792.htm). In short: because Sibelius is a genius.
Quoted below are a few of the most relevant excerpts.
Right on, Brian. I particularly like this summation:
QuoteSibelius's writing for orchestra also has structural, rhetorical implications which are hard for a piano to replicate. The sound of the orchestra is not the clothing in which Sibelius dresses his musical ambition: it is a vital organ. It is the heart.
And not only did he write specifically and irreducibly for orchestra "in his head," but after he'd been lionized in Finland he often had the forerunner of the HPO at his disposal to help him fine tune his music and work out the details before sending a piece to the publisher.
The idea to arrange Sibelius's orchestral works for piano is just about as ridiculous as it gets. Even Stravinsky's music is somewhat possible to arrange for solo piano, but Sibelius's genius is so much in the use of the orchestra, and it can't be reproduced with a piano. The Finnish classical music magazine Rondo reviewed the Sigfridsson's album some time ago - and it wasn't pretty.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 18, 2011, 12:48:59 PMAnd not only did he write specifically and irreducibly for orchestra "in his head," but after he'd been lionized in Finland he often had the forerunner of the HPO at his disposal to help him fine tune his music and work out the details before sending a piece to the publisher.
Did not know that!
Another note: BIS' Sibelius edition is complete.
Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2011, 08:07:01 AM
Did not know that!
Another note: BIS' Sibelius edition is complete.
You can get the 13th box from here (although it's cheaper at Amazon, if you can wait a week ;) )
http://www.naxosdirect.fi/4CD-BOX-Sibelius-Edition-Vol-13---Miscellaneous-Works/title/BIS%201936/
CD 1 - Organ music; liturgic Music (eg. Music for Freemasons, Op 113)
CD 2 - Sketches for piano, organ and orchestra, unfinished works
CD 3 - Alternative versions of organ works and Music for Freemasons
CD 4 - Music by Sibelius's students and contemporaries
I'm not feeling a terrible urge to buy this.
Reviewer Fight! My MusicWeb colleague Dominy Clements has just reviewed the Henri Sigfridsson CD of Symphonies 2 and 5 arranged for piano, and he calls it "a magnificent success" (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Sibelius_ODE11792.htm)! Looks like the good Sibelius-lovers of the world will have to decide... 8)
Quote from: Brian on September 18, 2011, 12:40:36 PM
MusicWeb just published one of my favorites of the CD reviews I have written. It's a solo piano arrangement of Symphonies 2 and 5 and I took a few words to discuss why, exactly, I feel the piano arrangements are such failures (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Sibelius_sys25_ODE11792.htm).
I now have read both reviews. On this side you have the piano's 'honesty' in stripping the music of its spectacle, in the other conclusive proof of Sibelius's orchestral genius in passages that make no pianistic sense at all.
If I'd buy the CD, it would be for its instructive value only.
Anyone familiar with this?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61mwN--2hSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
For those who remember M forever's complaint about the way that conductors misshape the final bars of Sibelius' Seventh (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5210.msg126624.html#msg126624), good news: Pietari Inkinen on Naxos gets it absolutely right. I haven't been a fan of his symphony series, but his Seventh's coda is absolutely perfect, and really puts a lot of bigger-name readings - Berglund/EMI, Segerstam, Vanska - to shame. What clarity!
Abravanel: much too lightfooted, subdued, classicist and pointless IMO, sold the set.
Some might like it; I find many of Berglund´s famous Sibelius issues I´ve heard too much
like that as well (though certainly not the digital "Kullervo", for instance).
The Rozhdestvensky/melodiya set is now available on 3CD, much more to my taste,
especially 1 & 6. Well-articulated and very impressive, without the more absent-minded routine
in some of his chandos-issues.
thread haas been quiet for a while...
but sketches of the 8th symphony have been discovered -
see http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Is+this+the+sound+of+Sibeliuss+lost+Eighth+Symphony/1135269867060
Very interesting...that might wake the thread up a bit!
Doc Emmett Brown sez, "Unbelievable!"
Blimey.
Can anyone get the video to play?
I watched it earlier.
http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/Soiko+HSfin+videolla+Sibeliuksen+kadonnut+sinfonia/a1305548269034 (http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/Soiko+HSfin+videolla+Sibeliuksen+kadonnut+sinfonia/a1305548269034)
Simply click on the rectangle under the photo.
Cool stuff, pity it wasn't a whole symphony. In the interview, Timo Virtanen says that it's estimated to be from the end of 1920s or the 1930s.
Where's Deryck Cooke when you need him?
BBC4 tonight carried a performance of "Kullervo" with the London Symphony Orchestra under Sir Colin Davis.
Well worth catching up with on BBC IPlayer if you are in the UK. Davis is, of course, a superb Sibelian :)
I have always loved "Kullervo" for its sweep and passion and could never understand Sibelius's own apparent disdain for this work of his relative youth, especially given that he penned some pretty ordinary, actually pretty banal, choral music in later life.
The November 25th Wall Street Journal has an article about unfinished artworks called The Romance of Unfulfillment by Terry Teachout.
It contains a link to a Finnish performance of what might be sketches of the destroyed Eighth Symphony.
http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/Soiko%20HSfin%20videolla%20Sibeliuksen%20kadonnut%20sinfonia/a1305548269034 (http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/Soiko%20HSfin%20videolla%20Sibeliuksen%20kadonnut%20sinfonia/a1305548269034)
For the article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203611404577046104131124334.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203611404577046104131124334.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5)
Nice timing . . . my mp3 player just shuffled onto Night Ride & Sunrise, Op.55 played by the LSO led by Antal Doráti.
The Segerstam/Helsinki Phil is another beauty of a performance . . . must load that one up, too, at some point . . . .
Salonen conducting Sibelius 4 on YouTube:
NIIICE!! Salonen's granitic and slightly 'evil' facade as his hands sweep out the tempo,... NIIICE!!
Quote from: snyprrr on November 30, 2011, 07:53:50 AM
Salonen conducting Sibelius 4 on YouTube:
What, not even a link? . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 09:14:37 AM
What, not even a link? . . .
http://www.youtube.com/v/60PGX0RzUvU
IIRC, youtube has Salonen conducting the SRSO in most if not all the symphonies.
Thanks, Dave!
EDIT :: And very nice.
I finally found a Sibelius Second that's propulsive enough and hard-driving enough to satisfy me. Szell/NYPO, a live radio broadcast on Naxos Music Library, clocking in at 39:56... finally an account with the momentum and inevitability I was looking for. A pity about the mono radio sound though.
Does anybody know of a stereo account that's similarly bracing in its pulse?
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2011, 02:51:18 PM
I finally found a Sibelius Second that's propulsive enough and hard-driving enough to satisfy me. Szell/NYPO, a live radio broadcast on Naxos Music Library, clocking in at 39:56... finally an account with the momentum and inevitability I was looking for. A pity about the mono radio sound though.
Does anybody know of a stereo account that's similarly bracing in its pulse?
If you respond to Sibelius like that, I urge you NEVER to get into porn.
Quote from: jlaurson on December 11, 2011, 04:55:38 PM
If you respond to Sibelius like that, I urge you NEVER to get into porn.
Hah!
Perversely, as Sarge will tell you, my taste in Sib 2 is for 'extremely fast' while my taste for Sib 5/6 is 'extremely slow.' Something about the inertia and faux-pastorality of the Second's first movement, as it is usually played, got me wondering a long time ago what the movement would sound like if it were played with the neoclassical coolness and briskness of the Third Symphony, and that curiosity has yet to abate. For some reason no performers seem keen to see it in that cooler but more volatile light.
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2011, 02:51:18 PM
I finally found a Sibelius Second that's propulsive enough and hard-driving enough to satisfy me. Szell/NYPO, a live radio broadcast on Naxos Music Library, clocking in at 39:56... finally an account with the momentum and inevitability I was looking for. A pity about the mono radio sound though.
Does anybody know of a stereo account that's similarly bracing in its pulse?
The other Szell recordings are a bit slower but they do have drive, momentum and inevitability. Check out Järvi, too, whose last movement is particularly bracing.
I II III IV TOTAL
Szell with the Cleveland, live from Toyko 9:17 12:53 5:52 14:18 42:20
Szell with the Concertgebouw 9:24 12:40 5:45 13:41 41:30
Jarvi Gothenburg 8:48 13:54 5:57 12:59 41:38
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2011, 10:32:23 AM
I II III IV TOTAL
Szell with the Cleveland, live from Toyko 9:17 12:53 5:52 14:18 42:20
Szell with the Concertgebouw 9:24 12:40 5:45 13:41 41:30
Jarvi Gothenburg 8:48 13:54 5:57 12:59 41:38
Berglund (Helsinki cycle): 8:53, 12:43, 5:50, 12:25 = 39:51
Quote from: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 08:22:40 PM
Berglund (Helsinki cycle): 8:53, 12:43, 5:50, 12:25 = 39:51
And I'd love it, only my disc is defective and stops in the final coda :(
Quote from: Brian on December 14, 2011, 09:21:26 PM
And I'd love it, only my disc is defective and stops in the final coda :(
Very sorry to hear that, though I'm sure you can "remedy" the situation *nudge nudge*
Berglund's is my favourite recording, and I don't think it's especially fast - it's just that everyone else is too slow.
January 4, 2011 - The Swedish label BIS Records is set to release the first recording of the Minnesota Orchestra's Sibelius symphonies series, featuring the Finnish composer's stirring Second and Fifth Symphonies. Conducting the recording is Music Director Osmo Vänskä, whose Sibelius interpretations have earned international acclaim. The disc, the newest chapter of the highly-praised collaboration between BIS, Mr. Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra, is available starting January 13 through the Orchestra's website, minnesotaorchestra.org. It will also be available in stores and as a download on major online music sites.
(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sibelius_BIS_Minnesota.jpg)
Side Notes: Paavo Berglund & Sibelius Meet Again
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/01/side-notes-paavo-berglund-sibelius-meet.html#more
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9Cw8SIt3YW0/TyQKkRf_CtI/AAAAAAAAByg/eb6AKGD0EuU/s1600/Paavo_Berglund_jfl.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/01/side-notes-paavo-berglund-sibelius-meet.html#more)
A very adorable Tapiola seems to be on this one. I need a further full listen. It may compete with my currently favourite one, w. Blomstedt and the SF Symphony Orchestra. It's pretty thrilling and intensive, timing is similar to Blomstedt, sometimes feels slightly slower. Good quality (it's a 1968 recording).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61G5857FEZL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
Must say, adorable isn't an adjective which comes to my mind w/r/t Tapiola at all, at all : )
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 02:49:51 AM
A very adorable Tapiola seems to be on this one. I need a further full listen. It may compete with my currently favourite one, w. Blomstedt and the SF Symphony Orchestra. It's pretty thrilling and intensive, timing is similar to Blomstedt, sometimes feels slightly slower. Good quality (it's a 1968 recording).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61G5857FEZL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
How's the 7th?
I'm itching to get that Gibson set of Tone Poems, which I used to have. I need those melodies!
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 02:49:51 AM
A very adorable Tapiola seems to be on this one. I need a further full listen. It may compete with my currently favourite one, w. Blomstedt and the SF Symphony Orchestra. It's pretty thrilling and intensive, timing is similar to Blomstedt, sometimes feels slightly slower. Good quality (it's a 1968 recording).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61G5857FEZL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
How's the Fourth?
Quote from: karlhenning on March 14, 2012, 04:28:31 AMMust say, adorable isn't an adjective which comes to my mind w/r/t Tapiola at all, at all : )
This is a problem, Karl. I feel so sorry for you. If I were you, I'd take this very seriously :P. Everyone loves Tapiola. Say afetr me: EV-REEE-ONE!
snyprrr, I haven't even listened to that seventh. Amazon.com reviews are very positive. Same for the 4th. I'm not too familiar with Sibelius #7, it didn't work for me, no idea why. But I didn't try hard yet.
Also no listen for the 4th yet. Will do. My favourite one will be hard to beat anyway (Segerstam/Helsinki)
Oh, I like Tapiola a great deal, fella! It's just that adjective which doesn't strike me as appropriate. Adorable is more like Kimi. : )
Ah I see, maybe I haven't got the perfect feeling for the english language. Well, we all know Kimi is generally something overall positive, therefore I can say:
Blomstedts and Maazels Tapiola are perfectly kimiistic!
Pow!
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 14, 2012, 07:22:37 AM
snyprrr, I haven't even listened to that seventh. Amazon.com reviews are very positive. Same for the 4th. I'm not too familiar with Sibelius #7, it didn't work for me, no idea why. But I didn't try hard yet.
Also no listen for the 4th yet. Will do. My favourite one will be hard to beat anyway (Segerstam/Helsinki)
Oh! And actually I know (and very much enjoy) that recording of the Fourth and Seventh . . . I just don't have the recording from that generation of release.
Perhaps this is the best place to confess to a deep dark secret:
Everytime I see the word "Tapiola" my brain instantly transforms the spelling, and insists that it's a pudding.*
(*Tapioca, if that's not instantly obvious.)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 14, 2012, 05:21:29 PMEverytime I see the word "Tapiola" my brain instantly transforms the spelling, and insists that it's a pudding.
You're not the only one! Though it's years since I've eaten a big bowl of sago....
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 14, 2012, 05:21:29 PM(*Tapioca, if that's not instantly obvious.)
Yeah, not obvious for me and I think widely unknown in Germany.
Quote from: Tapio Kimitriyevich Shostakovich on March 15, 2012, 03:56:23 AM
Yeah, not obvious for me and I think widely unknown in Germany.
No need to worry. I've never mistaken YOU for a pudding :)
Just popped in to say, "Highly recommended!"
[asin]B006UTDETE[/asin]
I heard it through Mog on Thursday. Halfway through the 2nd, I placed my Amazon order. Try it on Mog and judge for yourself. I look forward to receiving the CD so I can hear it in good sound. My initial response to the 2nd (the 5th was good but didn't blow me away like the 2nd) was so favorable that I thought my old Sibelius-loving friends at CMG might like to give it a try.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 31, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Just popped in to say, "Highly recommended!"
[asin]B006UTDETE[/asin]
I heard it through Mog on Thursday. Halfway through the 2nd, I placed my Amazon order. Try it on Mog and judge for yourself. I look forward to receiving the CD so I can hear it in good sound. My initial response to the 2nd (the 5th was good but didn't blow me away like the 2nd) was so favorable that I thought my old Sibelius-loving friends at CMG might like to give it a try.
I just posted a couple days ago about possibly getting the Essential Sibelius, which contains these performances. It wasn't my first choice, but I am slowly coming around to making it the first choice. Good to see you around after a bit of a hiatus.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 31, 2012, 05:56:41 AM....I thought my old Sibelius-loving friends at CMG might like to give it a try.
This is GMG, dude...you've been gone so long I guess you forgot ;D :)
Seriously, good to see you again, David.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 31, 2012, 06:02:01 AM
I just posted a couple days ago about possibly getting the Essential Sibelius, which contains these performances.
Actually not. These are new. The performances in the Essentials box are with the Lahti SO.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2012, 06:05:25 AM
This is GMG, dude...you've been gone so long I guess you forgot ;D :)
Seriously, good to see you again, David.
Ack! My bad! Thanks, Sarge.
If the rest of the Minnesota Sibelius recordings are this good, I will be collecting yet another cycle -- and
loving it!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2012, 06:05:25 AM
Actually not. These are new. The performances in the Essentials box are with the Lahti SO.
Sarge
Oh. He made two? I hadn't realized. How are they different (if you have heard both)?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 31, 2012, 06:22:50 AM
Oh. He made two?
I guess Vänskä is trying to emulate Berglund, Saraste and Segerstam by producing multiple cycles :D
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 31, 2012, 06:22:50 AM
I hadn't realized. How are they different (if you have heard both)?
I haven't heard the Minnesota performances yet.
Sarge
This here Vänska/Lahti Fourth is my new favorite Op.63.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 31, 2012, 06:22:50 AM
Oh. He made two? I hadn't realized. How are they different (if you have heard both)?
Lahti put Sibelius on a cardio-machine and had him do Swedish exercises. Out came a surprisingly lean beast, matched only by Sakari and Iceland (Naxos). Minnesota, he grew with age, as the offerings where rich and the exercise less manic, but it's still a nimble fellow in the well filled suit, and he walketh in stride. If that helps.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 31, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Just popped in to say, "Highly recommended!"
[asin]B006UTDETE[/asin]
Seconded.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
I've got 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies, do I really need to add Berglund/Bournemouth?
Of course not. Not
need.
Wantz! With 18 cycles, you've shown a history of zero ability to resist a temptation... so that's a pretty good indication you'll get this one, too. Which ones do you
not have, in any case? ;)
I've updated for the Berglund below...
Better viewed her: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
- - - -
Survey of Sibelius Symphony CyclesTime to update: New version of Maazel II, first boxed CD incidence of Davis I.
The spot freed up by the formerly necessary second volume of Davis is taken by Sixtus Ehrling's Stockholm cycle that had not been included previously.
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| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | *V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hY7ajufkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Decca ~$25,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACXcbxwSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51USmBPt2DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | S. Ehrling,
Royal Stockholm PO
Finlandia $50,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | *L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/7/9736002.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
EMI (back in print!) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | *O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel I,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | *K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | *Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | *H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | *P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | *S. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | *P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
"Make no mistake, Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius symphony cycle is a crime against humanity." - David Hurwitz
Well, consider me interested.
Hah!
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 05:35:24 AM
"Make no mistake, Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius symphony cycle is a crime against humanity." - David Hurwitz
Well, consider me interested.
It's not to my taste and the sound is not very good, but it may be the most interesting and compelling alternate take I know. If you want heat, Rozhdestvensky is the anti-Vänskä! Is it available again?
BTW, Hurwitz is an ass. (No surprise, I know! ;) ) See for instance his reviews panning Haitink's Mahler 2, 3, & 6 with the CSO and his 4 with Schäfer -- all among the best recent Mahler recordings I've heard and strong contenders to make my ever-growing Mahler symphony favorites list. (On the other hand, I pretty much agree with his assessment of the CSO 1st, though he flogs it more than it deserves. It's not that bad, it's just dull and no better than dozens of other mediocre firsts.)
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 05:35:24 AM
"Make no mistake, Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius symphony cycle is a crime against humanity." - David Hurwitz
Well, consider me interested.
When I first listened to my Rozhdestvensky box, I found it a fascinating alternative (raw, brassy, and exciting) take, having believed that I'd already found Sibelius Nirvana in Segerstam's box. Now, a year or two down the line, it's Rozhdestvensky that I tend to reach for when I want my Sibelius fix. I think it's daring, it's utterly engaging, and it's changed my Sibelian expectations. That sort of thing doesn't often happen.
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 05:35:24 AM
"Make no mistake, Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius symphony cycle is a crime against humanity." - David Hurwitz
Well, consider me interested.
All sarcasm aside, I
am interested. When I read that headline at Classics Today, it almost made me buy a subscription. When the Hurwitzer is wrong, he's even more entertaining than usual ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2012, 08:30:45 AM
All sarcasm aside, I am interested. When I read that headline at Classics Today, it almost made me buy a subscription. When the Hurwitzer is wrong, he's even more entertaining than usual ;D
Sarge
And record companies love those pans. I've been told by different label owners, repeatedly, that a good pan will usually result in greater sales than a hymn.
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2012, 08:59:07 AM
And record companies love those pans. I've been told by different label owners, repeatedly, that a good pan will usually result in greater sales than a hymn.
Works on me ;D For example, Hurwitz destroyed (or tried to destroy) Ozawa's Prokofiev cycle. (I think he gave it a 2 for performance and not much higher for the sound). I
had to hear it after reading that review.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2012, 09:02:39 AM
Works on me ;D For example, Hurwitz destroyed (or tried to destroy) Ozawa's Prokofiev cycle. (I think he gave it a 2 for performance and not much higher for the sound). I had to hear it after reading that review.
Sarge
...and? I don't have a Prokofiev cycle, and when considering Ozawa it's GMG v. The Dave.
@Jens: I presume there's a fine line, in sales results, between the "this artist is insane" pan and the "this artist is simply incompetent" pan?
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 09:17:03 AM
...and? I don't have a Prokofiev cycle, and when considering Ozawa it's GMG v. The Dave.
@Jens: I presume there's a fine line, in sales results, between the "this artist is insane" pan and the "this artist is simply incompetent" pan?
No, apparently no fine line at all. Any pan will do, as long as it's gruesome. (Although admittedly I've not talked to producers who have committed such atrocities where the latter would have really, ultimately rung true to those intrigued customers.)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2012, 09:02:39 AM
Works on me ;D For example, Hurwitz destroyed (or tried to destroy) Ozawa's Prokofiev cycle. (I think he gave it a 2 for performance and not much higher for the sound). I had to hear it after reading that review.
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 09:17:03 AM
...and? I don't have a Prokofiev cycle, and when considering Ozawa it's GMG v. The Dave.
Ozawa's Proky cycle is first-rate. And the BP sounds terrific -- much better than under Herbie!
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2012, 09:17:03 AM
...and? I don't have a Prokofiev cycle, and when considering Ozawa it's GMG v. The Dave.
I wasn't even expecting to like it but in fact I love it. The sound doesn't bother me (the multi-mike spotlighting that produces what Hurwitz memorably calls "Jumbo the Killer Oboe" ), it's the kind of sound I grew up with, the kind of sound Columbia was infamous for. I agree the readings are relatively mellow and perhaps lacking Russian rhythmic bite, but hey, I'm old. I rather like mellow these days 8)
Sarge
Speaking of the
bloviator Hurwitzer, Minnesota Classical Radio says he didn't like Vänskä's Minnesota Sibelius:
QuoteLet's put this right up front: numerical ratings of record reviews are specious at best. But relatively speaking here's a not-so-perfect 7 for the new Sibelius recording by Osmo Vanska and the Minnesota Orchestra. And it comes from a critic who, in fairness, has in the past awarded many perfect 10's to Osmo's recordings.
Say what you will about critics, but I will credit David Hurwitz with giving very specific details about WHY he feels Osmo's performance doesn't work. Hurwitz even goes so far as to explain why Bernstein's recording is superior -- even tho Hurwitz doesn't like that one either. Point being, this review contains real insight and nuance. :o
Osmo has said the new CD is the best he's ever done, and Osmo is one of the most thoughtful musicians around. I'd love to sit Osmo and Hurwitz down at a table to hear them discuss the merits of this Sibelius. THAT would be really interesting.
emphases added
I liked it. I'm waiting eagerly for the next installment. And if it's as good as the last (why wouldn't it be?) then I'll probably be adding cycle number 18 to my collection.
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 22, 2012, 11:24:21 AM
Speaking of the bloviator Hurwitzer, Minnesota Classical Radio says he didn't like Vänskä's Minnesota Sibelius:
emphases added
I liked it. I'm waiting eagerly for the next installment. And if it's as good as the last (why wouldn't it be?) then I'll probably be adding cycle number 18 to my collection.
Hurwitz did like the 5th. I assume it would have rated a 9 or 10 if reviewed by itself. The lower mark, 7, reflects his dislike of the Second which he calls mannered (and backs up his claim with examples). Since I like Bernstein DG I might like this new Vänskä too. But, you know, I think I have to agree with the reviewer here. So much music waiting to be recorded. Do we need another Sibelius cycle? I don't (already have 18).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 23, 2012, 06:35:13 AM
Hurwitz did like the 5th. I assume it would have rated a 9 or 10 if reviewed by itself. The lower mark, 7, reflects his dislike of the Second which he calls mannered (and backs up his claim with examples). Since I like Bernstein DG I might like this new Vänskä too. But, you know, I think I have to agree with the reviewer here. So much music waiting to be recorded. Do we need another Sibelius cycle? I don't (already have 18).
It's the second that I particularly like on this disc -- and I'm not normally a big fan of the second, liking it least of the seven.
Couldn't resist and bought Sibelius 2/5 Vänskä/Minnesota now at http://www.eclassical.com/conductors/vanska-osmo/sibelius-symphonies-nos-2-5.html
This is the way I want it. You get booklet PDFs there (also as a non-customer) and 96khz Studio Master if you wish.
Wow. Just made acquaintance with this wonderful recording of the violin concerto:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4108O4wKrJL.jpg)
The violinist is Ida Haendel accompanied by Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth SO. Originally released on EMI but in this edition it's been licensed by Disky and released under the Unesco Classics moniker. Recording date is 1976.
Up till now Sibelius's VC had proved elusive for me on disc, with the two recordings I have being not so satisfactory. This one though triumphs in all respects.
What sound! Recording-wise it trumps the other two recordings I have by miles and they'd been recorded a generation later (1993 & 2001). The recording engineers here aren't named but no question they know their business, at least in Sibelius. The sound is rich and almost, well, "rugged". Outdoorsy I suppose, almost as if recorded in a deep, shadowy nordic forest. You can almost taste it.
The sound is ideal for the interpretation of Haendel, Berglund and the Bournemouth SO. They too are forceful, intuitive...balancing the frosty woods aspects of the score with a reflectiveness that highlights the strong architectural underpinnings of Sibelius's vision.
There's power and whispery pirouettes in abundance and all-in-all this is one stunner of a performance.
I've yet to listen to the fifth symphony on this disc but I can tell you I'm damn anxious to!
That's a great one, Don, and the 5th is splendid, too -- a bit more full-bodied than Berglund's later ones and gives Bernstein's NYPO 5th a run for the roses!
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 25, 2012, 08:15:00 PM
That's a great one, Don, and the 5th is splendid, too -- a bit more full-bodied than Berglund's later ones and gives Bernstein's NYPO 5th a run for the roses!
Definitely, Dave. Any thoughts on Berglund's Bournemouth cycle as a whole? I'm really enjoying uniqueness of the interpretations: rugged, woodsy, yet with no lack of sophistication.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 25, 2012, 08:46:28 PM
Definitely, Dave. Any thoughts on Berglund's Bournemouth cycle as a whole? I'm really enjoying uniqueness of the interpretations: rugged, woodsy, yet with no lack of sophistication.
The Bournemouth 5th is typical of the set--a bigger, more romanticized approach to the symphonies than Berglund took in later years. Not as "hot" as Maazel/WP, nor as lush as Segerstam. More like Bernstein/NYPO ... or Rattle/CBSO. If I had to pick one of those three, it would be Lenny, for sure, but the Bournemouth set is nevertheless quite good, though not as distinctive as Berglund's last outing with the ECO. That, too, has been inexplicably OOP since shortly after it was issued on Finlandia (label madness, perhaps, with Warner focused on Teldec & Erato reissues?).
Hmmm. Just thinking about these cycles kindles my interest in breaking out the Sibelius sets again!
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 26, 2012, 03:28:20 AM
The Bournemouth 5th is typical of the set--a bigger, more romanticized approach to the symphonies than Berglund took in later years. Not as "hot" as Maazel/WP, nor as lush as Segerstam. More like Bernstein/NYPO ... or Rattle/CBSO.
Agree. And when I see it put this way, I'm not surprised my three favorite Fifths are Bernstein/NY, Berglund/Bournemouth and Rattle (although I lean more towards the Philharmonia performance).
Sarge
The symphonies are definitely outstanding music, I really love them, especially No.2, 4, 5 and 7. ;D
Sibelius' music is extremely beautiful; so evocative, poetical and powerfully emotional, with a very original harmonic language, more restrained compared to that one of his contemporaries, but equally intense and expressive. It also has a superb orchestration (Sibelius was really a master of that, in my opinion) and absolutely brilliant melodic structures which evolve themselves during the piece, often bursting out and fading awayin the flow of music. This is particularly clear in the symphonies, which are certainly masterpieces, but they aren't the only remarkable works Sibelius composed: Karelia Suite, Finlandia, The Swan of Tuonela, Valse Triste, Tapiola, Kullervo and the Violin Concerto in D minor are all gorgeous, impressive compostions; the beauty and the genius of Sibelius' creative power are showed there as well.
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 26, 2012, 03:28:20 AM
but the Bournemouth set is nevertheless quite good, though not as distinctive as Berglund's last outing with the ECO. That, too, has been inexplicably OOP since shortly after it was issued on Finlandia (label madness, perhaps, with Warner focused on Teldec & Erato reissues?).
The latter is some weird Finlandia-Warner distribution issue -- because in Germany the set is still available (i.e. Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00002472T/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00002472T&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-21), but also stores, ditto UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00002472T/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B00002472T&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21), but in the US (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002472T/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00002472T&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-20) only through third parties that import). Got it after Berglund passed away and fell in love at once... inadequately described, it combines the intensity of Segerstam II with the leanness of Vanska.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 04, 2012, 07:00:40 AM
Got it after Berglund passed away and fell in love at once... inadequately described, it combines the intensity of Segerstam II with the leanness of Vanska.
A reasonable description, inadequate though it may be. It's very concentrated--Berglund had probably thought and felt more deeply about Sibelius than any other conductor and this final cycle is the result of some 60 years of experience. I'm not surprised that you, too, appreciate its virtues. The 4th in this set may be my favorite recording of that symphony (out of the 20+ versions in my collection), and the others are all quite fine as well, standing not only with Berglund's earlier efforts, but holding their own with any other cycle in the discography and a darned sight better than most!
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 04, 2012, 06:52:33 AM
The symphonies are definitely outstanding music, I really love them, especially No.2, 4, 5 and 7. ;D
Sibelius' music is extremely beautiful; so evocative, poetical and powerfully emotional, with a very original harmonic language, more restrained compared to that one of his contemporaries, but equally intense and expressive. It also has a superb orchestration (Sibelius was really a master of that, in my opinion) and absolutely brilliant melodic structures which evolve themselves during the piece, often bursting out and fading awayin the flow of music. This is particularly clear in the symphonies, which are certainly masterpieces, but they aren't the only remarkable works Sibelius composed: Karelia Suite, Finlandia, The Swan of Tuonela, Valse Triste, Tapiola, Kullervo and the Violin Concerto in D minor are all gorgeous, impressive compostions; the beauty and the genius of Sibelius' creative power are showed there as well.
Well said, Ilaria, especially the 'bursting out and fading away' bit.
I'd add En saga, Lemminkäinen suite and Luonnotar to the list, and maybe Pohjola's daughter (don't remember this one too well).
I love Sibelius's use of the winds, and the string and percussion writing are gorgeous, too.
Quote from: North Star on July 04, 2012, 09:02:05 AM
Well said, Ilaria, especially the 'bursting out and fading away' bit.
I'd add En saga, Lemminkäinen suite and Luonnotar to the list, and maybe Pohjola's daughter (don't remember this one too well).
I love Sibelius's use of the winds, and the string and percussion writing are gorgeous, too.
So do I, absolutely; also Sibelius' brass chords are marvelous.
Oh, yes, how could I forget them....I adore
En Saga and
Luonnotar, Ashkenazy made a wonderful recording of both those tone poems; I really appreciate Lemminkäinen too. Instead I haven't listened to
Pohjola's daughter yet.
i just had to say that nigel kennedy's version of the violin concerto just moved me like few things in music
I don't know Tapiola very well, and usually default to the late Karajan EMI recording. But the other night I pulled out the disc from EMI's big Berglund box and found something definitely better: while Berglund has a grandness comparable to K, this interpretation is more focused and driven, and the sound is more atmospheric and has more texture. My new default recording.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 25, 2012, 05:48:16 PM
I don't know Tapiola very well, and usually default to the late Karajan EMI recording. But the other night I pulled out the disc from EMI's big Berglund box and found something definitely better: while Berglund has a grandness comparable to K, this interpretation is more focused and driven, and the sound is more atmospheric and has more texture. My new default recording.
Really? I haven't heard Berglund's recording yet, but I would like to have a listen to it; I've got only Karajan and Ashkenazy for
Tapiola.
The Berglund & Helsinki Tapiola is certainly a great, and atmospheric, recording.
The proof of a great Tapiola likes in the (eating of the) pudding!
Berglund Bournemouth I get, but Berglund Helsinki I don't. Too bad there isn't one with the European Chamber Orchestra, because that, too, is a leaner approach to Sibelius by Berglund, and there I totally get it, as far as the symphonies are concerned. Then there is the Berglund Finnish RSO Tapiola (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025Q5P/goodmusicguide-21), but I don't know it.
I also like Saraste / Finnish RSO (RCA), and Rosbaud / Berlin -- but that could be an emotional attachment that hasn't been checked against the reality of the performance in a long time.
By the way: The Saraste Finlandia and RCA cycles with the Finnish RSO -- they are identical?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000B668Y0.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Tapiola
Berglund / Helsinki
EMI
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000B668Y0/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000PGTHRG/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000B668Y0/goodmusicguide-21) |
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004Z34P.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Tapiola
Berglund / Bournemouth
EMI
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z34P/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z34P/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z34P/goodmusicguide-21) |
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005TP0P.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Tapiola
Saraste / Finnish RSO
RCA
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E6FI/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005TP0P/goodmusicguide-21) |
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4170P2ZXJSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Tapiola
Rosbaud / Berlin Phil.
DG
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GR3/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GR3/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GR3/goodmusicguide-21) |
Berglund rocks Tapiola.
Hmm, I suppose I must fetch in that Bournemouth two-fer.
That rec, Jens, makes me realize: gaaah, it's a decade and more since last I listened to Kullervo . . . .
Quote from: jlaurson on July 26, 2012, 03:21:43 AM
The proof of a great Tapiola likes in the (eating of the) pudding!
I also like....Rosbaud / Berlin -- but that could be an emotional attachment that hasn't been checked against the reality of the performance in a long time.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4170P2ZXJSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Tapiola
Rosbaud / Berlin Phil.
DG
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GR3/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GR3/goodmusicguide-21) -
I have that Tapiola in the DG Rosbaud box and it's no illusion. First-rate Sibelius.
Surprise! A new recording of Paavo Berglund doing Sibelius 5 and 6 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/LPO/LPO0065#listen) has turned up. These are live London Philharmonic performances from 2003, now on the LPO's own label.
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/lpolpo0065.jpg)
Believe only me ;D I've listened to 10000s of Tapiolas - and to sum it up:
BLOMSTEDT/SFSO ROCK TAPIOLA. PERIOD. The best Tapiola the world has ever heard and will ever hear. PERIOD.
[asin]B000FOQ1EA[/asin]
Well, I have to mention: another Tapiola is maybe en par (older recording, but very good quality):
[asin]B00004TTX3[/asin]
Thanks. That Blomstedt set looks very nice, and, IIRC, has received praise here before. (and, for the record, I somehow thought that you were sarcastic about Tapiola in the pm a while ago)
Quote from: North Star on September 01, 2012, 12:00:25 PMThanks. That Blomstedt set looks very nice, and, IIRC, has received praise here before. (and, for the record, I somehow thought that you were sarcastic about Tapiola in the pm a while ago)
At least Tapiola from Blomstedt receives a lot of praise pretty often... Cannot check what I wrote in the pm because hmmm... my "sent items" is empty...
This was broadcast on UK Radio 3 last November. 50 seconds of Sibelius 8th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96826210/201.mp3 (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96826210/201.mp3) Right click, etc...
It was on a show called Symphony Question time (about 8 mins into the show here...http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b017msyl?t=12.045
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b017msyl?t=12.045)
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 11:41:14 PMThis was broadcast on UK Radio 3 last November. 50 seconds of Sibelius 8th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96826210/201.mp3 (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/96826210/201.mp3) Right click, etc...
It was on a show called Symphony Question time (about 8 mins into the show here...http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b017msyl?t=12.045 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b017msyl?t=12.045)
Is is real? The recording sounds quite old, and the music itself sounds suspiciously American $:)
Ok, maybe my last post jumped the gun....
QuoteSymphony No. 8 (Sibelius) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Sibelius))
For years it was believed that the only traces of the symphony that had survived were some marginalia in a copy of his Seventh Symphony, some sketches of the symphony found in the library of Helsinki University, and Surusoitto, Op. 111b, which Aino claimed was based on material from the symphony.
However, according to Tino Virtanen, the editor-in-chief of the collected edition of Sibelius, the archives donated by Sibelius's family to the University of Helsinki contain extensive drafts which are likely to relate to the missing symphony. Extracts from these were given an orchestral rehearsal in October 2011, and a reconstruction of all or part of the symphony may be possible from them.
Just listened to the 7th (Maazel/VPO). It's taken me years to appreciate it, but now I find it incredibly moving. The ending is devastating! I have tears in my eyes....
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 12:53:23 AM
Just listened to the 7th (Maazel/VPO). It's taken me years to appreciate it, but now I find it incredibly moving. The ending is devastating! I have tears in my eyes....
Outstanding!
Another cycle, but on single discs available with all the bonus pieces (all but the Night Ride not with Saraste, btw.).
Interesting early appearances by artists... like Anu Tali, Leonidas Kavakos... but also Sibelius veterans like Okko Kamu and Paavo Berglund (who conducts one of his Tapiolas here).
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRR.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphonies No. 1 & 7
Serenades 1 & 2, Valse triste
J-P.Saraste / Finnish RSO
L.Kavakos, J.Lamminmäki, R.Stockholm PO, A.Davis, Kuoppio SO, A.Almila
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRR/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRR/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRR/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRS.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphony No. 2
Six Humoresques, Oceanides, Wedding March
J-P.Saraste / Finnish RSO
J.Kuusisto, Kuopio SO, A.Almila, NRK SO (KORK), A.Rasilainen
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRS/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRS/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRS/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRT.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphony No. 3
Romance, Karelia Suite, Tapiola, Impromptu, Presto
J-P.Saraste, P.Berglund / Finnish RSO
Helsinki Strings, G.Szilvay, Ostrobothnian CO, J.Kangas, Helsinki PO, O.Kamu
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRT/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRT/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRT/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRU.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphony No. 4
Suite for Violin & Strings, En Saga, Rakastava, Finlandia
J-P.Saraste / Finnish RSO
Jari Valo, Ostrobothnian CO, J.Kangas, R.Stockholm PO, A.Davis, Helsinki PO, O.Kamu
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRU/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRU/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRU/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRV.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphony No. 5
Andante Festivao, Violin Concerto, Swan of Tuonela
J-P.Saraste / Finnish RSO / Miriam Fried
Helsinki Strings, G.Szilvay, Helsinki PO, O.Kamu, Estonian-Finnish SO, Anu Tali
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRV/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRV/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRV/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LSRW.01.L.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphony No. 6
Scene with Cranes, Swanwhite (Concert Suite), Night Ride & Sunrise
J-P.Saraste* / Finnish RSO
Finlandia Sinfonietta, P.Helasvuo, NRK SO (KORK) A.Rasilainen, Toronto SO*
Finlandia
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRW/goodmusicguide-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRW/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRW/goodmusicguide-21)
European Amazon only
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 12:53:23 AM
Just listened to the 7th (Maazel/VPO). It's taken me years to appreciate it, but now I find it incredibly moving. The ending is devastating! I have tears in my eyes....
Yes! The 7th is one of the greatest symphonic pieces ever written. It really is an amazing piece for such a short work - what a way for Sibelius to finish things off before his musical silence. I am inspired now to put it on....
I have the Saraste box set of symphonies but have never heard the recordings of the companion pieces on these discs. Some not-so-usual suspects and some surprising tone poem omissions from the usual accompanying pieces. Quite an array of fiddlers as well! Kuuisisto, Kavakos, Fried,
Did Amazon EU discover a stash of these old Finlandia discs in the warehouse, or is Warner reviving the label, I wonder...? And couldn't they find anything more photogenic for the covers than those snaps of the Sibelius monument? No wonder they didn't sell!
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 06:58:33 AM
Did Amazon EU discover a stash of these old Finlandia discs in the warehouse, or is Warner reviving the label, I wonder...?
Certainly not reviving the label. Warner only acquired the Finlandia label because it came along with what Warner really wanted, the Fazer music publishing company. The label was generally considered a nuisance to its new owner, and except for a few recordings re-released in the Apex budget line, it was abandoned remarkably fast.
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on September 02, 2012, 06:19:02 PM
At least Tapiola from Blomstedt receives a lot of praise pretty often... Cannot check what I wrote in the pm because hmmm... my "sent items" is empty...
Many of us praise the Blomstedt set (sift back through this thread and on the old forum archive as well). Perhaps we can thank one of our former members for its release, which happened a few weeks after Benji finally found and paid something like ₤30 for a used copy of the last single issue he needed to complete the cycle. If I could take only one symphony cycle to the desert island--and weren't allowed all the extras in the BIS "Essential Sibelius"--I would choose this one.
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 12:53:23 AM
Just listened to the 7th (Maazel/VPO). It's taken me years to appreciate it, but now I find it incredibly moving. The ending is devastating! I have tears in my eyes....
As Karl noted, "Outstanding!"
It took me years, too, (decades, actually) to appreciate Sibelius, but when his music finally clicked, my world changed. Repeated listening to Maazel's WP cycle in an effort to understand why some regard Sibelius so highly is what finally did the trick. That, and whatever spiritual growth I needed before I was able to appreciate his music.
Heard casually, pieces like the 7th seem little more than sonic bon-bons. Heard deeply, they're like smooth granite stones plunging through the surface of our consciousness and stirring waves that ripple endlessly through the marrow of our souls.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 07:28:23 AMHeard deeply, they're like smooth granite stones plunging through the surface of our consciousness...
That sounds painful :D
Sarge
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 07:28:23 AM
....
Heard casually, pieces like the 7th seem little more than sonic bon-bons. Heard deeply, they're like smooth granite stones plunging through the surface of our consciousness and stirring waves that ripple endlessly through the marrow of our souls.
That kind of writing on the 7th is a brilliant capture of it. I wish I wrote that. 8)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2012, 07:32:10 AM
That sounds painful :D
Not if they're smooth. ;) Think curling stones rather than jagged shards of granite splitting off the face of El Capitan after a freeze.
Quote from: Scots John on September 06, 2012, 07:33:54 AM
That kind of writing on the 7th is a brilliant capture of it. I wish I wrote that. 8)
Gosh, thanks, John.
(* pounds the smooth granite table with a rubber mallet *)
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 07:28:23 AMHeard casually, pieces like the 7th seem little more than sonic bon-bons. Heard deeply, they're like smooth granite stones plunging through the surface of our consciousness and stirring waves that ripple endlessly through the marrow of our souls.
For me the 7th is like a journey. The traveller sets out across land both rough and smooth, droughts and storms, past love scenes and cataclysms, noting all but proceeding past, until finally the ultimate ending is achieved - reaching something ultimately unknowable but certainly final.
Anyone have any thoughts on Kletzi's 2nd with the Philharmonia, from the mid-50s and recorded in stereo?
[asin]B000002SC4[/asin]
Quote from: Scots John on August 08, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
Have you heard his Snofrid? It is in my top 5 favourite Sibelius works.
Sorry I missed this post, Johnny Boy. Yes, I've heard
Snofrid many times. I have several performances of it. I think my favorite is Paavo Jarvi's on Virgin Classics. It's certainly been quite some time since I've heard this work.
Finally, the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle appears set to be reissued. So far UK only, apparently. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Tapiola-Finlandia/dp/B0091JQH2Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349322135&sr=1-1)
I have nothing but the 5th from this cycle (along with the violin concerto) but if the rest is as gloriously recorded as this one (which I don't have on the original EMI) I'd say it's almost a must-buy.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 03, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Finally, the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle appears set to be reissued. So far UK only, apparently. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Tapiola-Finlandia/dp/B0091JQH2Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349322135&sr=1-1)
I have nothing but the 5th from this cycle (along with the violin concerto) but if the rest is as gloriously recorded as this one (which I don't have on the original EMI) I'd say it's almost a must-buy.
That's great news, Don! It's a terrific cycle, a must-buy for Sibelius addicts, with a broader, more full-bodied approach than Berglund took in later years. I have the old Royal Classics reissue (licensed from EMI) but at the price listed on AmazonUK I'll probably get a copy of this reissued reissue, too!
Edit: I just pre-ordered it, scheduled for release in January
Blomstedt didn't do a 7th, did he?
Quote from: snyprrr on October 04, 2012, 07:38:24 AM
Blomstedt didn't do a 7th, did he?
Yes he did, and like all the rest of his Sibelius recordings, it's terrific.
See this:
[asin]B000FOQ1EA[/asin]
Perhaps the best cycle on record of them all.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 08:20:32 AMPerhaps the best cycle on record of them all.
Listening to it over the past month or so, I'm coming around to this position. I haven't heard the First yet, but he nails the finale of 2, and although 5 is not my favorite (Lenny), 3-6 are collectively as outstanding as anybody's ever done them. I'm impressed.
Flying Inkpot (remember him?) ranked Bournemouth-Berglund his favorite Seventh, I think, and I've been dying to hear that cycle. Will eagerly snap it up in spring 2013 when the price drops to "you're kidding" levels.
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 08:31:28 AM
Flying Inkpot (remember him?) ranked Bournemouth-Berglund his favorite Seventh, I think, and I've been dying to hear that cycle. Will eagerly snap it up in spring 2013 when the price drops to "you're kidding" levels.
I do remember the site and the self-described "Sibelius Nut." He loved the whole cycle, as I recall.
If you get tired of waiting, you could always spring for the Royal Classics edition on the secondhand market. Amazon Marketplace offers it for as little as $139.99, or about as much as some individual issues of Blomstedt's San Francisco cycle before it was finally reissued as a box set.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 08:48:30 AM
If you get tired of waiting, you could always spring for the Royal Classics edition on the secondhand market. Amazon Marketplace offers it for as little as $139.99, or about as much as some individual issues of Blomstedt's San Francisco cycle before it was finally reissued as a box set.
:D :D
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 08:20:32 AM
Yes he did, and like all the rest of his Sibelius recordings, it's terrific.
See this:
[asin]B000FOQ1EA[/asin]
Perhaps the best cycle on record of them all.
I own 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies and Blomstedt, along with all three of Colin Davis' cycles, are my least favorites, although Inkinen on Naxos isn't that exciting either. The Petri Sakari performances, on Naxos, were better than Inkinen's. :-\ Don't know why, but they were. Blomstedt suffers from the same lack of power and drive that plagues all of Colin Davis' cycles. Drab, lifeless performances that go nowhere. For me, it doesn't get much better than Bernstein, Vanska, or Berglund (Helsinki cycle is my favorite). I even like Barbirolli's cycle better than Blomstedt. At least Barbirolli's has some character and edge to the performances.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
. . . Drab, lifeless performances that go nowhere.
Dude, you need a new pair of ears ; )
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
I own 18 cycles of Sibelius' music and Blomstedt, along with all three of Colin Davis' cycles, are my least favorites, although Inkinen on Naxos isn't that exciting either. The Petri Sakari performances, on Naxos, were better than Inkinen's. :-\ Don't know why, but they were. Blomstedt suffers from the same lack of power and drive that plagues all of Colin Davis' cycles. Drab, lifeless performances that go nowhere. For me, it doesn't get much better than Bernstein, Vanska, or Berglund (Helsinki cycle is my favorite). I even like Barbirolli's cycle better than Blomstedt. At least Barbirolli's has some character and edge to the performances.
Sakari is superior to Inkinen everywhere, though I like Inkinen's Seventh. Of course, that's no surprise, as Sakari is in fact an interesting, non-standard approach - very icy and chamberlike. I really don't hear the "lack of power and drive" in Blomstedt; quite the reverse actually: I fault 5.ii for being too fast, and I like the force he brings to places like #2's finale.
I recently acquired Bernstein - only have heard 4 and 5, but am very excited by how closely they align with my taste. Lenny's 5 is my top choice.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AMBlomstedt suffers from the same lack of power and drive that plagues all of Colin Davis' cycles.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
Dude, you need a new pair of ears ; )
No shit ;D Has MI even heard Davis's Boston Sixth? That's as driven as a Ferrari 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 10:36:55 AM
Lenny's 5 is my top choice.
We've been on the same quest, and have arrived at the same destination. Still, I'm anxious for you to hear the Berglund/Bournemouth Fifth.
Sarge
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
Dude, you need a new pair of ears ; )
I've just never been impressed with Colin Davis' Sibelius performances. It's interesting that Davis' first cycle with the BSO was my first Sibelius cycle and then I heard Bernstein's cycle with the NY Philharmonic and thought "Oh, so that's what Davis was missing." :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 10:43:01 AM
No shit ;D Has MI even heard Davis's Boston Sixth? That's as driven as a Ferrari 8)
Sarge
No, Sarge. I haven't heard any Colin Davis' performances and I gave my opinion purely on assumption. ::) Yes, I have heard
ALL of Davis' cycles. Davis' 6th with the BSO doesn't come close to Vanska's. Sorry.
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 10:36:55 AM
Sakari is superior to Inkinen everywhere, though I like Inkinen's Seventh. Of course, that's no surprise, as Sakari is in fact an interesting, non-standard approach - very icy and chamberlike. I really don't hear the "lack of power and drive" in Blomstedt; quite the reverse actually: I fault 5.ii for being too fast, and I like the force he brings to places like #2's finale.
I recently acquired Bernstein - only have heard 4 and 5, but am very excited by how closely they align with my taste. Lenny's 5 is my top choice.
Nah, I don't like Blomstedt. He's just incredibly boring to me and lacks excitement. Give me any of the conductors' cycles that I mentioned that I enjoy any day.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
I own 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies and Blomstedt, along with all three of Colin Davis' cycles, are my least favorites, although Inkinen on Naxos isn't that exciting either. The Petri Sakari performances, on Naxos, were better than Inkinen's. :-\ Don't know why, but they were. Blomstedt suffers from the same lack of power and drive that plagues all of Colin Davis' cycles. Drab, lifeless performances that go nowhere. For me, it doesn't get much better than Bernstein, Vanska, or Berglund (Helsinki cycle is my favorite). I even like Barbirolli's cycle better than Blomstedt. At least Barbirolli's has some character and edge to the performances.
As if it were needed, your disapproval only confirms the wisdom of my judgment, supported by your laughable claim that Blomstedt's performances lack character and edge. Sakari is damned good, too--colorful, characterful, lean and mean and impassioned. Given your track record it's not surprising that you don't recognize its virtues, either. And judging Colin Davis as similar to Blomstedt is like judging a Buick LeSabre as similar to an Audi A8.
Question--you say Berglund's Helsinki cycle is your favorite. Do you know (
know, not just know of) Berglund's other cycles? Or is this just another "opinion" based on prejudice unleavened by considered experience?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
Drab, lifeless performances that go nowhere.
:o
I agree with Karl. Get yer ears cleaned oot laddie. Bernstein is probably last on my list of Sibelius interpreters. How awful to think him a great Sibelian. :( May I ask, what is it you're listening for / to in Sibelius? It has come as quite a shock to me that you have completely dismissed one of the finest Sibelian interpreters out there, Davis. I used to have Bernsteins Sibelius, but thought it so off the mark it never got played, and when it was lost in a fire I couldn't have cared less about that.
The thing about Sibelius is giving him an 'exciting' edge is just not on. A Sibelius played by a dynamic and lonely Orchestra on a glacier near the top of a mountain with nymph infested pine trees as its only audience on either side under a darkening clear blue sky, white moon and Venus on the horizon... :-\ er...thats the way I want to hear
in 'em anyway. Something like that. :-\ :P Bernstein is as far removed from that as hell as can be, Blomstedt
is there, so is Davis and Ashkenazy.
Ashkenazy is often described as too 'warm' - something I find hard to hear when his Sibelius ice cubes are dropping into my glass of satisfaction. ???
Oh dear. Looks like I've went somewhat daft...but honest, it is such a surprise to hear Davis and Blomstedt described as lacking 'power and drive'. Power and Drive are the natural result of Sibelius played well, they should not be pushed as the main feature ala Bernstein - he misses the point with Sibelius.
Oh well... :-\
Quote from: Scots John on October 04, 2012, 12:00:36 PM
... I used to have Bernsteins Sibelius, but thought it so off the mark ...
yes!
So am I the only Sibelian who thinks both Davis and Bernstein are terrific? ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 11:10:50 AM
No, Sarge. Davis' 6th with the BSO doesn't come close to Vanska's. Sorry.
Davis doesn't come close to Vänskä because Davis is so far ahead! Sorry ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
So am I the only Sibelian who thinks both Davis and Bernstein are terrific? ;D
Sarge
Hah!
I should revisit the Davis/BSO Sixth. I certainly think highly of both Blomstedt and Lenny.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 10:44:33 AM
We've been on the same quest, and have arrived at the same destination. Still, I'm anxious for you to hear the Berglund/Bournemouth Fifth.
Sarge
I'm anxious for me to hear it too!
Count me a big fan of Blomstedt, Bernstein, and... no, I'm pretty mixed in my views on Davis. But I like Berglund/Helsinki and Sakari and some Vanska too.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
So am I the only Sibelian who thinks both Davis and Bernstein are terrific? ;D
Sarge
I can't imagine you are... both are saccharine, heart-on-sleeve, and superficial in Sibelius. >:D ;) It works, of course, and I, too, find Lennies' Fifth (Sony) very fine... and actually his Fourth, among the most radical Fourths there are ("Wagner without Strings"), is - if nothing else - ear-opening. Davis-Boston is great AND overrated... and in a way I feel guilty listening to it... because it strikes me as great for all the wrong reasons... for making Sibelius into a kind of Nordic Strauss he simply isn't.
As per Fifth that I love: the soapstone-like organic Fifth of Celibidache with Stuttgart is amazing... he really gets how the various lines of the music are to emerge from another in a completely organic way.
I'll be interested in Berglund I... although I don't think it likely I'll enjoy it as much as Berglund III (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00002472T/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00002472T&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-21). Perhaps he'll be a bit like Segerstam II -- another, very different take on Sibelius (bit more like Davis, actually) that I very much like.
Blomstedt, Berglund, Bernstein, Vänskä, Sakari, Segerstam, Rozhdestvensky, Maazel, and, yes, Barbirolli, too! are all favorites of mine, each with much to "say" about this splendid music, and each with deeply felt and uniquely characteristic approaches to it that speak to my sensibilities. That is not to say that other gifted musicians who love Sibelius--say, Colin Davis or Ashkenazy or Rattle, Järvi, Karajan, Sanderling, et al--don't also have something special to say, just that whatever it is hasn't spoken to me ... yet!
Quote from: jlaurson on October 04, 2012, 01:10:00 PM
... both [Davis and Bernstein] are saccharine, heart-on-sleeve, and superficial in Sibelius. >:D ;) It works, of course, and I, too, find Lennies' Fifth (Sony) very fine... and actually his Fourth, among the most radical Fourths there are ("Wagner without Strings"), is - if nothing else - ear-opening. Davis-Boston is great AND overrated... and in a way I feel guilty listening to it... because it strikes me as great for all the wrong reasons... for making Sibelius into a kind of Nordic Strauss he simply isn't.
As per Fifth that I love: the soapstone-like organic Fifth of Celibidache with Stuttgart is amazing... he really gets how the various lines of the music are to emerge from another in a completely organic way.
I'll be interested in Berglund I... although I don't think it likely I'll enjoy it as much as Berglund III (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00002472T/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00002472T&linkCode=as2&tag=goodmusicguide-21). Perhaps he'll be a bit like Segerstam II -- another, very different take on Sibelius (bit more like Davis, actually) that I very much like.
Well, Lenny's definitely heart-on-sleeve, but I think neither saccharine nor superficial--and I agree with your characterization of Davis's BSO Sibelius as "a kind of Nordic Strauss." I would probably think it lovely and wonderful if I didn't know others I like much better.
Your supposition regarding Berglund I is right on the money. Not quite as lush or virtuosic as Segerstam II, but more along those lines--big and romantic compared to Berglund II and especially Berglund III. I like Segerstam II because if you're going to go in that direction, then you might as well go all the way--which he does and splendidly. Berglund I is not that extreme--more like Lenny I, but more from the inside-out rather than the outside-in, if you know what I mean. (I think that's what you regard as "superficial" in Lenny I.) ;)
As for Celi's 5th, I've never heard it. But if you like it that much, then I imagine it's worth hearing! (even if I end up not agreeing with you ;D )
Quote from: jlaurson on October 04, 2012, 01:10:00 PM
As per Fifth that I love: the soapstone-like organic Fifth of Celibidache with Stuttgart is amazing...
Stuttgart? Or do you mean the Swedish RSO? I'm hoping there
is a Stuttgart Fifth because the Swedish performance, which I had high hopes for, was, in the end, disappointing.
Quote from: jlaurson on October 04, 2012, 01:10:00 PMPerhaps he'll be a bit like Segerstam II -- another, very different take on Sibelius (bit more like Davis, actually) that I very much like.
Of the 18 sets I own, which do I love the most? The problem is, no single set is perfect as a whole. When I make a list of favorite performances, one for each symphony, I end up with seven different conductors ;D I suppose Segerstam II makes the cut along with Berglund/Bournemouth and Davis/Boston. And the two,
very different, Maazels. Lenny would have to be a combination of Sony and DG recordings. Vänskä and Blomstedt, favorites around these parts, don't make the cut. I haven't warmed to either. Maybe I'm not supposed to :D
Sarge
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
As if it were needed, your disapproval only confirms the wisdom of my judgment, supported by your laughable claim that Blomstedt's performances lack character and edge. Sakari is damned good, too--colorful, characterful, lean and mean and impassioned. Given your track record it's not surprising that you don't recognize its virtues, either. And judging Colin Davis as similar to Blomstedt is like judging a Buick LeSabre as similar to an Audi A8.
Question--you say Berglund's Helsinki cycle is your favorite. Do you know (know, not just know of) Berglund's other cycles? Or is this just another "opinion" based on prejudice unleavened by considered experience?
I said Berglund's Helsinki cycle is
one of my favorites and, no, I have not heard nor do I own Berglund's other two cycles. I want them though. As for my own opinion, I think it's funny when I express a dislike for something that doesn't coincide with your own opinion, I'm told my opinion is laughable. You disagree fine, but don't get all bent out of shape about it. Saying something like "Given your track record it's not surprising that you don't recognize its virtues" also, for me, only reinforces my point: you can't stand to be challenged by a different opinion and the only way you can get your point across is by insults.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 01:35:13 PM
Vänskä and Blomstedt, favorites around these parts, don't make the cut. I haven't warmed to either. Maybe I'm not supposed to :D
Given your predilections, I suppose you're right. ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 01:28:40 PM
...Segerstam, Rozhdestvensky, Maazel...
Rozhdestvensky - aye. Rarely quoted in Sibelius, but brilliant.
Quote from: Scots John on October 04, 2012, 12:00:36 PM
:o
I agree with Karl. Get yer ears cleaned oot laddie. Bernstein is probably last on my list of Sibelius interpreters. How awful to think him a great Sibelian. :( May I ask, what is it you're listening for / to in Sibelius? It has come as quite a shock to me that you have completely dismissed one of the finest Sibelian interpreters out there, Davis. I used to have Bernsteins Sibelius, but thought it so off the mark it never got played, and when it was lost in a fire I couldn't have cared less about that.
The thing about Sibelius is giving him an 'exciting' edge is just not on. A Sibelius played by a dynamic and lonely Orchestra on a glacier near the top of a mountain with nymph infested pine trees as its only audience on either side under a darkening clear blue sky, white moon and Venus on the horizon... :-\ er...thats the way I want to hear in 'em anyway. Something like that. :-\ :P Bernstein is as far removed from that as hell as can be, Blomstedt is there, so is Davis and Ashkenazy.
Ashkenazy is often described as too 'warm' - something I find hard to hear when his Sibelius ice cubes are dropping into my glass of satisfaction. ???
Oh dear. Looks like I've went somewhat daft...but honest, it is such a surprise to hear Davis and Blomstedt described as lacking 'power and drive'. Power and Drive are the natural result of Sibelius played well, they should not be pushed as the main feature ala Bernstein - he misses the point with Sibelius.
Oh well... :-\
I think Blomstedt's and Davis' Sibelius are well-played, but wrong-headed and just not to my liking. I like Bernstein's Sibelius because he goes for those huge climaxes and he brings a fiery, emotional persistence to the music that I find overwhelmingly powerful.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
I said Berglund's Helsinki cycle is one of my favorites and, no, I have not heard nor do I own Berglund's other two cycles. I want them though. As for my own opinion, I think it's funny when I express a dislike for something that doesn't coincide with your own opinion, I'm told my opinion is laughable. You disagree fine, but don't get all bent out of shape about it. Saying something like "Given your track record it's not surprising that you don't recognize its virtues" also, for me, only reinforces my point: you can't stand to be challenged by a different opinion and the only way you can get your point across is by insults.
Ah. When you specifically singled out Berglund's Helsinki cycle as your favorite in this context:
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
For me, it doesn't get much better than Bernstein, Vanska, or Berglund (Helsinki cycle is my favorite).
your statement suggested not only that it is one of your favorites, along with Bernstein and Vänskä, but also that it is your favorite among Berglund's cycles. So thank you for clearing that up. When people express judgments intending others to be guided by them, it's always helpful to know their context.
Your other comments are typically wrongheaded and obviously intended as personal attacks, thus:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q4Ytzh0ln9I/UEYyH77iu9I/AAAAAAAAQCc/ktzts8Kbz7s/s1600/implied-facepalm1.jpg)
I think Jansons is a brilliant interpreter of Sibelius' music too, I've listened to some beautiful, expressive performances by him (Symphony No.1, Violin Concerto, Valse Triste, Finlandia, Andante Festivo, Intermezzo from Karelia Suite).
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2012, 01:49:19 PM
I think Blomstedt's and Davis' Sibelius are well-played, but wrong-headed and just not to my liking. I like Bernstein's Sibelius because he goes for those huge climaxes and he brings a fiery, emotional persistence to the music that I find overwhelmingly powerful.
Work day's over, going to listen to Blomstedt's Third in the car to see what I think in light of all this.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 04, 2012, 02:00:08 PM
Ah. When you specifically singled out Berglund's Helsinki cycle as your favorite in this context:your statement suggested not only that it is one of your favorites, along with Bernstein and Vänskä, but also that it is your favorite among Berglund's cycles. So thank you for clearing that up. When people express judgments intending others to be guided by them, it's always helpful to know their context.
Your other comments are typically wrongheaded and obviously intended as personal attacks, thus:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q4Ytzh0ln9I/UEYyH77iu9I/AAAAAAAAQCc/ktzts8Kbz7s/s1600/implied-facepalm1.jpg)
Still with the personal attacks I see. :-\ Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 02:04:18 PM
Work day's over, going to listen to Blomstedt's Third in the car to see what I think in light of all this.
Ah...nice choice. His 3rd is one of my favorites. In keeping with his approaches to the 1st and 2nd, too, he elucidates the links to the radical later Sibelius symphonies better than anyone else. The 4th, thus, is understood not as a radical departure, but as a continuation and refinement of the singular process announced with the beginning of the first movement of the first symphony.
Quote from: Scots John on October 04, 2012, 01:43:43 PM
Rozhdestvensky - aye. Rarely quoted in Sibelius, but brilliant.
Again I agree :)
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 02:04:18 PM
Work day's over, going to listen to Blomstedt's Third in the car to see what I think in light of all this.
I'll give it an 8/10. The first movement has a lot of bustle and energy, except the beginning of the development (w/ flute solo), which is very relaxed indeed. The variations are unusually nocturnal, solemn, but also fluid; the finale goes very well but I think I'm used to slightly more pride and swagger from the brass at the very end. I took a point off for a few places in the first movement where I had very tiny issues with specific details - mostly the attacks/phrasings of the wind players. Still a satisfying reading.
My reference Third is Segerstam/Helsinki, and my reference "wacky" Third is Olli Mustonen's crazy-fast, muscle-bound "invention of neoclassicism" approach, which REALLY points forward to the composer's late style.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 01:35:13 PM
Stuttgart? Or do you mean the Swedish RSO? I'm hoping there is a Stuttgart Fifth because the Swedish performance, which I had high hopes for, was, in the end, disappointing.
Of the 18 sets I own, which do I love the most? The problem is, no single set is perfect as a whole. When I make a list of favorite performances, one for each symphony, I end up with seven different conductors ;D I suppose Segerstam II makes the cut along with Berglund/Bournemouth and Davis/Boston. And the two, very different, Maazels. Lenny would have to be a combination of Sony and DG recordings. Vänskä and Blomstedt, favorites around these parts, don't make the cut. I haven't warmed to either. Maybe I'm not supposed to :D
Sarge
I'm afraid you're right -- Swedish RSO, not Stuttgart. But fortunately I heard it differently than you. Although it's been a while and I'm separated from the disc.
And by the way: Here's to Sibelius, greatest Symphonist after Haydn and Beethoven. F&#@ Mahler. :)
Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2012, 02:52:07 AM
I'm afraid you're right -- Swedish RSO, not Stuttgart. But fortunately I heard it differently than you. Although it's been a while and I'm separated from the disc.
And by the way: Here's to Sibelius, greatest Symphonist after Haydn and Beethoven. F&#@ Mahler. :)
Ha! ;D
My personal holy trinity is Sibelius-Beethoven-Mahler. Though I recognize the path-breaking brilliance of Haydn, he doesn't reach the core of my soul like those three, or indeed like select works by many another symphonist.
Quote from: Brian on October 04, 2012, 05:55:46 PM
My reference Third is Segerstam/Helsinki, and my reference "wacky" Third is Olli Mustonen's crazy-fast, muscle-bound "invention of neoclassicism" approach, which REALLY points forward to the composer's late style.
I'll have to give Mustonen's Speed Racer Sibelius 3 another listen, it's been awhile! ;) And I agree that both it and Segerstam's third are quite good, and at opposite extremes on the interpretive scale!
Quote from: Scots John on October 04, 2012, 12:00:36 PM
:o
I agree with Karl. Get yer ears cleaned oot laddie. Bernstein is probably last on my list of Sibelius interpreters. How awful to think him a great Sibelian. :( May I ask, what is it you're listening for / to in Sibelius? It has come as quite a shock to me that you have completely dismissed one of the finest Sibelian interpreters out there, Davis. I used to have Bernsteins Sibelius, but thought it so off the mark it never got played, and when it was lost in a fire I couldn't have cared less about that.
The thing about Sibelius is giving him an 'exciting' edge is just not on. A Sibelius played by a dynamic and lonely Orchestra on a glacier near the top of a mountain with nymph infested pine trees as its only audience on either side under a darkening clear blue sky, white moon and Venus on the horizon... :-\ er...thats the way I want to hear in 'em anyway. Something like that. :-\ :P Bernstein is as far removed from that as hell as can be, Blomstedt is there, so is Davis and Ashkenazy.
Ashkenazy is often described as too 'warm' - something I find hard to hear when his Sibelius ice cubes are dropping into my glass of satisfaction. ???
Oh dear. Looks like I've went somewhat daft...but honest, it is such a surprise to hear Davis and Blomstedt described as lacking 'power and drive'. Power and Drive are the natural result of Sibelius played well, they should not be pushed as the main feature ala Bernstein - he misses the point with Sibelius.
Oh well... :-\
I quote myself just to reveal how far off the mark I can be - on this occasion, I can perhaps blame it on the poorer equipment I had at the time..or something...or just myself basically... :-\ ...I have got my paws on Bernstein's Sibelius with the NYPO, and I now cannot understand what the tapiolas I was on about in the above post.
A man can change his mind.
I cannot remember Bernstein's Sibelius sounding this good and I am wondering about my misplaced hostility towards it because of a listening years ago. I apologise to whomsoever I may have offended with such nonsense. I find this to be eminent Sibelius, but for some reason which baffles me, I did not find this when I had this set in the past.
It's GREAT.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415gRJ4b5KL._SS400_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 07:16:09 AM
Ha! ;D
My personal holy trinity is Sibelius-Beethoven-Mahler. Though I recognize the path-breaking brilliance of Haydn, he doesn't reach the core of my soul like those three...
He does, I'd like to postulate patronizingly (if you forgive me) -- you may just not notice. To be pampered with such genius and wit and invention... even when it's not obvious. It's like a spa-treatment for the ears and for the soul. It may not stir, but it nourishes and prepares for everything else.
Quote from: Scots John on October 07, 2012, 04:39:40 AM
I quote myself just to reveal how far off the mark I can be - on this occasion, I can perhaps blame it on the poorer equipment I had at the time..or something...or just myself basically... :-\ ...I have got my paws on Bernstein's Sibelius with the NYPO, and I now cannot understand what the tapiolas I was on about in the above post.
A man can change his mind.
I cannot remember Bernstein's Sibelius sounding this good and I am wondering about my misplaced hostility towards it because of a listening years ago. I apologise to whomsoever I may have offended with such nonsense. I find this to be eminent Sibelius, but for some reason which baffles me, I did not find this when I had this set in the past.
It's GREAT.
I'm not surprised you've come around, John, especially since Lenny's proclivity to overt romantic emotionalism seems right up your alley...and since the NYPO's playing in these recordings is phenomenally good - especially the winds, so important in Sibelius's symphonies.
I appreciate your example of willingness to keep investigating and to sweep prejudice aside so you can see/hear things anew. Don't beat yourself up for having misjudged something in the past. None of us can see or hear what we're not prepared to see or hear. Instead, give yourself a pat on the back for continuing to learn and grow ... and be grateful for the blessing of enjoying another set of performances of these great symphonies!
Heck, until I was in my late
40s I dismissed Sibelius (RVW, too) as just a pleasantly bland and rather boring late-Romantic, having formed that impression in my teens when I was taken with Stockhausen and Varèse and regarded even Stravinsky as passé. :o
If I hadn't eventually grown up enough to learn the benefit of seeing how others might be right instead of seeking only to reinforce my own prejudices, I probably never would have opened my mind to enjoying this astonishing music. Happily, the continuing advocacy for Sibelius by people I respected who were far more musically astute than I eventually persuaded me to make an earnest attempt to hear what they heard. It took awhile, but eventually I found gold!
And I benefited not only from being able to enjoy Sibelius's music, but also from learning a powerful first-hand lesson in the virtue of distinguishing between my opinions (i.e. Sibelius = soothing pretty music for boring old people) and facts (i.e. Sibelius seems bland and old fashioned
to me at this time in comparison with the celebrated avant-gardism of Stockhausen).
Quote from: jlaurson on October 07, 2012, 05:40:51 AM
[Haydn] does [reach the core of your soul like Sibelius, Mahler, and Beethoven], I'd like to postulate patronizingly (if you forgive me) -- you may just not notice. To be pampered with such genius and wit and invention... even when it's not obvious. It's like a spa-treatment for the ears and for the soul. It may not stir, but it nourishes and prepares for everything else.
No forgiveness necessary, Jens. I well understand that your corrections are intended to benefit me by offering insights to which I seem unaware! And they usually do, when I make the effort necessary to understand your point of view instead of ... well ... enough said. ;)
I'm reminded that I went through a phase just a couple of years ago when I was head over heels in love with Haydn, especially his chamber music, and particularly his quartets. Haydn's music at that time offered exactly the nourishing spa treatment for the soul that you speak of -- and which much of Sibelius's music also offers. It was a gateway to an inner garden of serenity. Less obvious, perhaps, than the more overtly dramatic soul stirring of others, but perhaps no less profound. :)
Quote from: Scots John on October 07, 2012, 04:39:40 AM
I quote myself just to reveal how far off the mark I can be - on this occasion, I can perhaps blame it on the poorer equipment I had at the time..or something...or just myself basically... :-\ ...I have got my paws on Bernstein's Sibelius with the NYPO, and I now cannot understand what the tapiolas I was on about in the above post.
A man can change his mind.
I cannot remember Bernstein's Sibelius sounding this good and I am wondering about my misplaced hostility towards it because of a listening years ago. I apologise to whomsoever I may have offended with such nonsense. I find this to be eminent Sibelius, but for some reason which baffles me, I did not find this when I had this set in the past.
It's GREAT.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415gRJ4b5KL._SS400_.jpg)
Well, I'm certainly glad you've come around to this set, John. It's one of my favorite Sibelius cycles for the reason that it goes
against what many would say is too hot-headed and emotionally intense for Sibelius. For me, this fire and ice approach to Sibelius works incredibly well. This was
the Sibelius set that made me love this composer's music. It was one of those "lightbulb" moments. Everything made much more sense with Lenny at the helm. Bernstein had a special affinity for Nordic composers and his Nielsen recordings are just as inspired as his Sibelius. Hope you enjoy this set for many more years to come.
There's hope: John's (MI) ears may yet come around to the Blomstedt/SFSO set : )
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2012, 02:53:57 AM
There's hope: John's (MI) ears may yet come around to the Blomstedt/SFSO set : )
You never know, Karl. I think I'll have a listen to it later on in the week. Refresh my memory of it.
Well, John, and the beauty of it is, there's no rush. Blomstedt will always be there.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2012, 07:26:37 AM
Well, John, and the beauty of it is, there's no rush. Blomstedt will always be there.
This is true. I do want to revisit the cycle at some point though. I would like to revisit all three of Davis' cycles as well just to see if my opinion has changed at all.
Do you ever have one of those days where you wake up and think, "I should listen to all of Alexander Gibson's Sibelius recordings today"? I had one yesterday, but Naxos Music Library was down. I had another one today. Hopefully its servers can handle my demands!
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 05:21:51 AM
Do you ever have one of those days where you wake up and think, "I should listen to all of Alexander Gibson's Sibelius recordings today"? I had one yesterday, but Naxos Music Library was down. I had another one today. Hopefully its servers can handle my demands!
Scottish National or Royal Philharmonic? Or really ALL?
Quote from: jlaurson on October 09, 2012, 05:41:51 AM
Scottish National or Royal Philharmonic? Or really ALL?
I'm starting with the RPO Karelia Suite, Swan of Tuonela, and Finlandia in a hazy attempt to go in chronolog-ish order. I haven't yet decided what to do for the symphonies he recorded with both orchestras (including #1); thoughts?
I like the idea of a Sibelius-fest today at Casa de Dave!
Gibson would not be my choice, however. Who would? Hmmmm....
I know! Let's start with the oldest (earliest recorded) complete cycle I own.
Not this: (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S7xAmc2KL._AA300_.jpg)
Nor this: (http://img1.garitto.com/data/shop/44647/product/_/f8b1f66bcc565c97f54de821f6cf23c0.C317.jpg)
Nor even this: (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wgnyeUA2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
But this! (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61syKE6mNyL._AA300_.jpg)
(Recordings date from 1960 to 1967)
Oh, my. Just heard Lenny's NYPO Sibelius 1 for the first time in ... oh ... probably 2 or 3 years.
Although this set has ranked high in my estimation ever since I first heard it, I still forget just how good it is, how great the NYPO was, and how good recording technology was back in the '60s.
This is just splendid. Even though Lenny's emotionally charged, fast and furious, full-tilt 1st hardly embodies my preferred performance approach, it's just so damned good and committed and well-played that I love it!
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 07:03:30 AM
Oh, my. Just heard Lenny's NYPO Sibelius 1 for the first time in ... oh ... probably 2 or 3 years.
Although this set has ranked high in my estimation ever since I first heard it, I still forget just how good it is, how great the NYPO was, and how good recording technology was back in the '60s.
This is just splendid. Even though Lenny's emotionally charged, fast and furious, full-tilt 1st hardly embodies my preferred performance approach, it's just so damned good and committed and well-played that I love it!
And I see Amazon has a new copy of the set for the reasonable price of $552.94. I'd better snap it up before someone here spots it.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 07:03:30 AM
Oh, my. Just heard Lenny's NYPO Sibelius 1 for the first time in ... oh ... probably 2 or 3 years.
Although this set has ranked high in my estimation ever since I first heard it, I still forget just how good it is, how great the NYPO was, and how good recording technology was back in the '60s.
This is just splendid. Even though Lenny's emotionally charged, fast and furious, full-tilt 1st hardly embodies my preferred performance approach, it's just so damned good and committed and well-played that I love it!
I am glad I came round to it in a BIG way recently.
QuoteLenny's emotionally charged, fast and furious, full-tilt 1st hardly embodies my preferred performance approach...
Yes, this is most definitely something we do not want to hear in Sibelius at all...but Lenny has a way with it, and makes big audio for such an old recording, some of them older than my physical being sounding like they were recorded next month.
Davis and Ashkenazy, my two top Sibelians, completely different from Lenny as they are to each other - they would never get away with playing it like Lenny does, and Lenny is the only conductor who probably
has got away with it.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 09, 2012, 07:06:18 AM
And I see Amazon has a new copy of the set for the reasonable price of $552.94. I'd better snap it up before someone here spots it.
;D
Just goes to show how underappreciated Sibelius still is. New Mahler cycles appear almost every month, it seems, and both DGG & Sony keep reissuing Bernstein's Mahler cycles in new packaging/remasterings. Sony's issued 3 different sets of the NYPO cycle in the past 11 years. Yet distribution of the "Columbia Legends" Sibelius cycle pictured above was spotty back in 2003 and it went OOP PDQ.
For them to reissue it wouldn't even require remastering, as this set was just repackaged from the "Royal Edition" boxes that were remastered in good 20-bit sound back in the '90s after the industry learned to do away with that "digitalis" glare that made early CDs so awful.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 07:20:42 AM
;D
Just goes to show how underappreciated Sibelius still is. New Mahler cycles appear almost every month, it seems, and both DGG & Sony keep reissuing Bernstein's Mahler cycles in new packaging/remasterings. Sony's issued 3 different sets of the NYPO cycle in the past 11 years. Yet distribution of the "Columbia Legends" Sibelius cycle pictured above was spotty back in 2003 and it went OOP PDQ.
They did a whole series of Columbia Legends with that kind of cover. I think the package design is bloody dreadful, and may have weighted bad sales.
Quote from: Scots John on October 09, 2012, 07:24:54 AM
They did a whole series of Columbia Legends with that kind of cover. I think the package design is bloody dreadful, and may have weighted bad sales.
Yeah. All those pictures of Lenny probably turned most folks off. If they want to boost sales, they need to go with a cover photo like this:
(http://ukrmedia.biz/images/products/Tape%20Five_Tonight%20Josephine_2011.jpg)
;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 07:30:27 AM
Yeah. All those pictures of Lenny probably turned most folks off. If they want to boost sales, they need to go with a cover photo like this:
(http://ukrmedia.biz/images/products/Tape%20Five_Tonight%20Josephine_2011.jpg)
;D
I'm not sure whether Lenny dressed like this would sell so well.
Quote from: Sadko on October 09, 2012, 07:44:50 AM
I'm not sure whether Lenny dressed like this would sell so well.
;D
These days you never know.... ;)
"I feel pretty ... oh so pretty ...."
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 07:30:27 AM
Yeah. All those pictures of Lenny probably turned most folks off. If they want to boost sales, they need to go with a cover photo like this:
(http://ukrmedia.biz/images/products/Tape%20Five_Tonight%20Josephine_2011.jpg)
;D
Or a more culturally appropriate equivalent
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61VRRt5ukZL._SS500_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613PHbRseRL._SS500_.jpg)
I don't have either of those (though I do have some of Segerstam's DRSO Sibelius, I can't recall the cover art).
No doubt they feature prominently in Sarge's collection! ;)
Now I'm regretting that my Sibelathon is at work, guys!
So far, from Gibson and the RPO: Karelia suite, Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia, En Saga, Symphonies 1 and 2. I tried the Scottish Symphony No 1 but the first three minutes were just appalling. Overall, a bit speed demony and gritty with great brass but otherwise not fantastic playing. Sort of like the vodka-on-ice of Sibelius cycles. Finlandia one of the best I've ever heard, actually I should say one of the tiny handful I could ever listen to for pleasure, En Saga quite enjoyable, but not exactly five stars all around.
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 08:30:32 AM
Now I'm regretting that my Sibelathon is at work, guys!
So far, from Gibson and the RPO: Karelia suite, Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia, En Saga, Symphonies 1 and 2. I tried the Scottish Symphony No 1 but the first three minutes were just appalling. Overall, a bit speed demony and gritty with great brass but otherwise not fantastic playing. Sort of like the vodka-on-ice of Sibelius cycles. Finlandia one of the best I've ever heard, actually I should say one of the tiny handful I could ever listen to for pleasure, En Saga quite enjoyable, but not exactly five stars all around.
I'll have to try that
Finlandia, Brian. Probably my least favorite Sibelius composition for orchestra.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 08:38:42 AM
I'll have to try that Finlandia, Brian. Probably my least favorite Sibelius composition for orchestra.
Easily my least favorite. Maybe Gibson's my favorite performance because it's over the fastest ;D
Sounds like a fun thread ;D
Listening to the violin concerto for the first time in ages right now, really great, beautiful work. I feel that I could easily go into a Sibelius phase!
Laure (the dedicatee of my upcoming violin concerto) has already performed the Sibelius Violin Concerto, studying it with Vengerov for a week last summer in Switzerland, I really hope to hear that performance soon!! :)
I'm really looking forward to listening to more Sibelius now. I still have the Karajan DG 4-7 which I still haven't listened to, which I'll probably start with. :)
Bought some Sibelius with Salonen that I didn't own:
[asin]B0000027U8[/asin]
[asin]B0000028MW[/asin]
Can't wait to hear these.
Also bought these Berglund LPO recordings:
[asin]B000B865B4[/asin]
[asin]B008P76VTE[/asin]
Berglund is one of my favorites in Sibelius. Will be anxious to hear more from him in this music.
I listened to the following from Alexander Gibson today (in order):
Karelia suite, Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia, En Saga, Symphony No 1, Symphony No 2 [Royal Philharmonic]
Rakastava, Night Ride and Sunrise, Lemminkainen Suite, Luonnotar (w/ Phyllis Bryn-Julson), The Bard, Symphony No 3, Pohjola's Daughter, Symphony No 6, Tapiola [Scottish National Orch]
Conclusions? Gibson is brusque, bumpy, and speedy, and his orchestras are not always the finest to be heard in this music. He can whip up excitement and great brass playing while still feeling chilly. The best performances - Finlandia, the Lemminkainen Suite, En Saga, Night Ride and Sunrise, the Sixth Symphony - shear off other conductors' mystique and heavy profundity. Gibson isn't sentimental, he isn't nostalgic, he isn't a starry-eyed romantic, and that has the effect of making both performances of 'Swan of Tuonela,' which is fairly sentimental, even more powerful. I love his Lemminkainen Suite, and know it's unusually fast at 44'. His Night Ride and Sunrise and Finlandia are probably my all-time favorites for those works.
The worst performance I heard was the Scottish Symphony No 1, which was so lumpy and bizarre I turned it off after three minutes. The Scottish Third's unsteady horns are a surprise since the RSNO now possesses one of the best horn sections on the planet (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.570245). And the only reason I'm not raving about Gibson's Luonnotar is that nobody can top Soile Isokoski.
Generally pretty decent but unimpressive sonics, though the Scottish albums are not Chandos' boomiest by any means. This marathon had its very satisfying moments, but I generally was aware that better can be had.
-
State of play update. Here are my favorite recordings for a dozen Sibelius orchestral works.
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 3: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: San Francisco/Blomstedt (alt. Philharmonia/Ashkenazy)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling)
Symphony 7: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. San Francisco/Blomstedt, maybe New Zealand/Inkinen?)
Finlandia: RPO/Gibson
Violin Concerto: Heifetz/LPO/Beecham
Luonnotar: Isokoski/Helsinki/Segerstam
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein
Oceanides: Iceland/Sakari
Karelia Suite: Philadelphia/Ormandy
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 08:38:42 AM
I'll have to try that Finlandia, Brian. Probably my least favorite Sibelius composition for orchestra.
I seem to remember that
Finlandia is actually part of a larger work and originally includes a choral part. I can't remember the name of the big work though. Perhaps within this context it will be more appealing to you.
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 05:17:51 PM
I listened to the following from Alexander Gibson today (in order):
Karelia suite, Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia, En Saga, Symphony No 1, Symphony No 2 [Royal Philharmonic]
Rakastava, Night Ride and Sunrise, Lemminkainen Suite, Luonnotar (w/ Phyllis Bryn-Julson), The Bard, Symphony No 3, Pohjola's Daughter, Symphony No 6, Tapiola [Scottish National Orch]
Conclusions? Gibson is brusque, bumpy, and speedy, and his orchestras are not always the finest to be heard in this music. He can whip up excitement and great brass playing while still feeling chilly. The best performances - Finlandia, the Lemminkainen Suite, En Saga, Night Ride and Sunrise, the Sixth Symphony - shear off other conductors' mystique and heavy profundity. Gibson isn't sentimental, he isn't nostalgic, he isn't a starry-eyed romantic, and that has the effect of making both performances of 'Swan of Tuonela,' which is fairly sentimental, even more powerful. I love his Lemminkainen Suite, and know it's unusually fast at 44'. His Night Ride and Sunrise and Finlandia are probably my all-time favorites for those works.
The worst performance I heard was the Scottish Symphony No 1, which was so lumpy and bizarre I turned it off after three minutes. The Scottish Third's unsteady horns are a surprise since the RSNO now possesses one of the best horn sections on the planet (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.570245). And the only reason I'm not raving about Gibson's Luonnotar is that nobody can top Soile Isokoski.
Generally pretty decent but unimpressive sonics, though the Scottish albums are not Chandos' boomiest by any means. This marathon had its very satisfying moments, but I generally was aware that better can be had.
-
State of play update. Here are my favorite recordings for a dozen Sibelius orchestral works.
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 3: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: San Francisco/Blomstedt (alt. Philharmonia/Ashkenazy)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling)
Symphony 7: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. San Francisco/Blomstedt, maybe New Zealand/Inkinen?)
Finlandia: RPO/Gibson
Violin Concerto: Heifetz/LPO/Beecham
Luonnotar: Isokoski/Helsinki/Segerstam
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein
Oceanides: Iceland/Sakari
Karelia Suite: Philadelphia/Ormandy
You and I definitely have different tastes in Sibelius, but I suppose this is always a good thing. :) You seem to rate Segerstam's Helsinki cycle quite highly. I think there are some positives about the set, but I did not enjoy his performance of one of my favorite Sibelius symphonies: the 6th. Without going into detail, and boring everybody here, I do think highly of Segerstam. His is still the BEST
Pohjola's Daughter I've heard on record. Have you heard it, Brian? You can probably listen to it on NML. I'm not a great admirer of the VC, but I still think Cho-Liang Lin/Salonen is one of the best I've heard. It has a great balance of chilliness and warmth. I also get the idea that Lin isn't about trying to impress anyone, but rather trying to give the work a musical narrative, which all violinists should do I think. Speaking of Segerstam, have you heard his
Lemminkainen Suite yet? Man, what a performance! Absolutely incredible. It was coupled with an equally great reading of
Tapiola, which is also included in the Segerstam Ondine set.
Anyway, I could talk about Sibelius all day long. I have quite an extensive collection of his music. Oh, and I bought Gibson's cycle, which will make my 19th symphony cycle. Really excited about hearing it despite what you wrote about it. I heard some of the performances were a little rough. This is my kind of Sibelius!
Quote from: Catison on October 09, 2012, 07:21:03 PM
I seem to remember that Finlandia is actually part of a larger work and originally includes a choral part. I can't remember the name of the big work though. Perhaps within this context it will be more appealing to you.
I don't think Finlandia at all bad, though probably it is my least favorite Sibelius work, too. In the ranks of such works as the Prokofiev March from The Love for Three Oranges, Shostakovich's Golden Age Polka and Ravel's Boléro — i.e., the perennially programmed tit-bits which make you want to shake someone by the collar and say, "He's written tons of fabulous real music, you know!" — Finlandia is probably dead center: neither Best in Show nor The Outright Enbarrassment.
We played it once, in Wooster, you know. I didn't mind.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 02:24:31 AM
We played it once, in Wooster, you know. I didn't mind.[/font]
We played it too, my high school band, a few miles north of Wooster 8) My first Sibelius, I think. It's one popular short warhorse I've not grown tired of.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 02:59:26 AM
We played it too, my high school band, a few miles north of Wooster 8) My first Sibelius, I think. It's one popular short warhorse I've not grown tired of.
Sarge
If you ever think you are tired of it, imagine being Finnish and hearing it at every official function in cheesy arrangements.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 09, 2012, 08:22:31 AM(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613PHbRseRL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 08:27:37 AM
No doubt they feature prominently in Sarge's collection! ;)
I wish. I bought the cheap edition of Lemminkainen and got screwed...and not in a good way >:(
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/sep2012/sibeliuslemmgibson.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Catison on October 10, 2012, 03:10:35 AM
If you ever think you are tired of it, imagine being Finnish and hearing it at every official function in cheesy arrangements.
Aye, it's
Sibelius's "We Are the Champions"
; )
Quote from: Catison on October 10, 2012, 03:10:35 AM
If you ever think you are tired of it, imagine being Finnish and hearing it at every official function in cheesy arrangements.
That is a horror I refuse to contemplate. I know at least one of our Finnish members can't listen with pleasure to
any Sibelius now.
Sarge
That Gibson/SNO recording was on a "Gemini" reissue, non è vero?
I've heard Finlandia often enough, obviously.
And, although I don't think it's a bad piece, it would be hard to come up with a piece by Sibelius that I like less.
Quote from: Catison on October 10, 2012, 03:10:35 AM
If you ever think you are tired of it, imagine being Finnish and hearing it at every official function in cheesy arrangements.
Cheesy arrangements? Now that I searched the web for them, I
did find a ukulele arrangement ::)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 03:15:20 AM
Aye, it's Sibelius's "We Are the Champions" ; )
;D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 03:15:56 AM
That is a horror I refuse to contemplate. I know at least one of our Finnish members can't listen with pleasure to any Sibelius now.
Sarge
I don't think that "at least" is necessary, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 03:21:09 AM
That Gibson/SNO recording was on a "Gemini" reissue, non è vero?
Which work are you referring to?
King Christian II and a few bits and pieces were on a gEMIni once... (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001RVRH2/nectarandambr-20)
But most of Gibson's Sibelius is on Chandos and was re-issued (incl. Lemminkainen Suite, Luonnotar, The Bard (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00119O3OS/nectarandambr-20) [also on the EMI], Night Ride, Spring Song (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A8O/nectarandambr-20), the symphonies [although I can't find them anywhere on Amazon anymore... 1/4, 3/6/7, and 2/5 were the couplings, I thing]) on Chandos' "collect" edition and then again on the Chandos 2-for-1 edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006AZQ0I/nectarandambr-20).
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 05:17:51 PM
State of play update. Here are my favorite recordings for a dozen Sibelius orchestral works.
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 3: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: San Francisco/Blomstedt (alt. Philharmonia/Ashkenazy)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling)
Symphony 7: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. San Francisco/Blomstedt, maybe New Zealand/Inkinen?)
Finlandia: RPO/Gibson
Violin Concerto: Heifetz/LPO/Beecham
Luonnotar: Isokoski/Helsinki/Segerstam
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein
Oceanides: Iceland/Sakari
Karelia Suite: Philadelphia/Ormandy
No favorite Second yet?....or Kullervo, En Saga, Night Ride, Tapiola or Lemminkainen? Anyway, I enjoy lists 8) We converge at a few points (in bold):
Symphony 1:
Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Vienna/Maazel)
Symphony 2: Cleveland/Szell (alt. Vienna/Bernstein)
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy (alt.
Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Symphony 5:
New York/Bernstein (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis (alt.
Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt.
New Zealand/Inkinen)
Kullervo: LSO/Davis (RCA) (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Lemminkainen: Swedish RSO/Franck
En Saga: Suisse Romande/Stein (alt: Berlin SO/Sanderling; LSO/Davis)
Night Ride and Sunrise: Philharmonia/Rattle (alt. Suisse Romande/Stein)
Finlandia: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling; Boston/Davis)
Violin Concerto: Mullova/Boston/Ozawa (alt. Kavakos/Lahti/Vänskä)
Luonnotar: Valjakka/Bournemouth/Berglund (alt. Curtin/New York/Bernstein)
Pohjola's Daughter:
New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Oceanides: Lahti/Vänskä
Karelia Suite: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Tapiola: Vienna/Maazel
Sarge
Quote from: jlaurson on October 10, 2012, 03:59:26 AM
Which work are you referring to?
King Christian II and a few bits and pieces were on a gEMIni once... (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001RVRH2/nectarandambr-20)
But most of Gibson's Sibelius is on Chandos and was re-issued (incl. Lemminkainen Suite, Luonnotar, The Bard (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00119O3OS/nectarandambr-20) [also on the EMI], Night Ride, Spring Song (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A8O/nectarandambr-20), the symphonies [although I can't find them anywhere on Amazon anymore... 1/4, 3/6/7, and 2/5 were the couplings, I thing]) on Chandos' "collect" edition and then again on the Chandos 2-for-1 edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006AZQ0I/nectarandambr-20).
Thanks for the clarification, Jens! In fact, I hadn't specifically recalled which pieces on that potpourri of a gEMIni two-fer were Gibson/SNO.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
No favorite Second yet?....or Kullervo, En Saga, Night Ride, Tapiola or Lemminkainen? Anyway, I enjoy lists 8) We converge at a few points (in bold):
*realizing what he is about to say is utterly horrifying*
I've not yet even HEARD Kullervo!
*goes back to being less horrifying*
So far my favorite Tapiola is Blomstedt's, but my acquaintance is recent. I've only heard the full Lemminkainen twice ever. Hey, Sibelius is like a series of presents... can't unwrap 'em all at once. :) I'd put Gibson down for Night Ride.
Now about the Second Symphony. There are some performances that nail the last two movements for me (see: Bernstein, Barbirolli) but I have some very, very strange ideas about how the symphony should be played, possibly lunatic ideas, and nobody's even tried them yet, to my knowledge.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Vienna/Maazel)
Symphony 2: Cleveland/Szell (alt. Vienna/Bernstein)
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis (alt.Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. New Zealand/Inkinen)
I've never heard these cycles from your list: Bournemouth/Berglund, Vienna/Maazel. Own all the others (edit: that are complete sets anyhow), just maybe haven't sampled them 100% or remember my thoughts on every performance. I DO remember Ashkenazy's Third however: it is a crackling good performance, but my main memory of it is of putting it on in the car and having those loud brass bits in the first movement beat the daylights out of my eardrums. ;D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Violin Concerto: Mullova/Ozawa/Boston (alt. Kavakos/Lahti/Vänskä)
Luonnotar: Valjakka/Berglund/Bournemouth (alt. Curtin/New York/Bernstein)
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam
Oceanides: Lahti/Vänskä
Karelia Suite: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Tapiola: Vienna/Maazel
Sarge
I really need to branch out and find more recordings of the Violin Concerto. It's hard, because generally if the first movement is > 16' the performance will drive me bonkers. The Curtin/Bernstein Luonnotar is my second choice too.
Also for John: I HAVE heard the Segerstam Pohjola's Daughter, but it was a few years ago. I'll add it to today's NML list.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2012, 07:34:27 PM
You and I definitely have different tastes in Sibelius, but I suppose this is always a good thing. :) You seem to rate Segerstam's Helsinki cycle quite highly. I think there are some positives about the set, but I did not enjoy his performance of one of my favorite Sibelius symphonies: the 6th.
Heh...I didn't like him in that symphony either. Nor the Fifth (well, he's fine until the last 90 seconds).
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2012, 07:34:27 PM
Oh, and I bought Gibson's cycle, which will make my 19th symphony cycle. Really excited about hearing it despite what you wrote about it. I heard some of the performances were a little rough. This is my kind of Sibelius!
Hey now, I was pretty positive about Gibson overall. Liked it, thought it refreshing, didn't love it. The tone poem 2-for-1 CD Jens linked to is probably my favorite part of the Gibson legacy, so far.
"Possibly lunatic ideas": well, if this ain't the right place for those, I don't know where is.
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2012, 05:56:17 AM
*realizing what he is about to say is utterly horrifying*
I've not yet even HEARD Kullervo!
*goes back to being less horrifying*
When you are ready to tackle Kullervo, I suggest Segerstam, Berglund/Bournemouth or Davis/LSO Live (I prefer the RCA Davis/LSO but I'm apparently the only person in the world who does. It's Sibelius Brucknerized).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 06:05:11 AM
When you are ready to tackle Kullervo, I suggest Segerstam, Berglund/Bournemouth or Davis/LSO Live (I prefer the RCA Davis/LSO but I'm apparently the only person in the world who does. It's Sibelius Brucknerized).
Sarge
I have Segerstam and Davis/LSO Live. The Segerstam is, to my ears, much better. (Although, to be perfectly honest, those are the only two performances of Kullervo I have, and I have no immediate motivation to increase their number. 19 Cycles of Beethoven and Mahler are a rational necessity; 19 cycles of Sibelius are the mark of a true Sibelian. (Although actually I don't have 19 cycles of anyone, at least not yet.)
I've not listened to it in many a year, but my initial listen to the Naxos recording of Kullervo was certainly a positive experience.
Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 06:48:51 AM
I've not listened to it in many a year, but my initial listen to the Naxos recording of Kullervo was certainly a positive experience.
Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )
Exceed in which direction? If you have faster recordings let me know so I can try them!
I'm doing Segerstam tone poems this morning.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 10, 2012, 06:25:50 AMI have Segerstam and Davis/LSO Live. The Segerstam is, to my ears, much better. (Although, to be perfectly honest, those are the only two performances of Kullervo I have, and I have no immediate motivation to increase their number. 19 Cycles of Beethoven and Mahler are a rational necessity; 19 cycles of Sibelius are the mark of a true Sibelian. (Although actually I don't have 19 cycles of anyone, at least not yet.)
I like
Kullervo. It's essentially a symphony in all but a name. I own many performances of it: Segerstam (Ondine), Paavo Jarvi, Vanska, Berglund, Spano, both of Davis', and I just recently bought Salonen.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2012, 08:16:46 AM
I like Kullervo. It's essentially a symphony in all but a name. I own many performances of it: Segerstam (Ondine), Paavo Jarvi, Vanska, Berglund, Spano, both of Davis', and I just recently bought Salonen.
It's been argued, by the way, that between Kullervo and Lemminkainen, Sibelius really wrote nine symphonies.
Hm, doesn't exceed imply one direction? : )
The Heifetz recording I have clocks in under 14 mins.
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2012, 08:17:29 AM
It's been argued, by the way, that between Kullervo and Lemminkainen, Sibelius really wrote nine symphonies.
No argument from me since I love both works. :) You
need to seriously listen to
Kullervo. Preferrably Vanska or Segerstam (Ondine --- he recorded it twice). I think you'll really enjoy it.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 06:48:51 AM
Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )
Hadn't thought of it before but of the three VC recordings I have two exceed 16 minutes in the first movement, one is shy of it. But as they say, timing is merely an outline, and loosely defined at that.
With the < 16 minute recording I sense a certain lack of gravitas, not exactly what I would call skimming the surface, but lacking weight which I desire.
Yet interestingly with the first of the > 16 minute recordings the
same holds true. Pacing is broader yet once again weight (grandeur?) is missing.
Enter the second of the > 16 minute recordings. Bingo! Though slowest of all (16'28") the movement has requisite conciseness and splendor. Seemingly effortless. Wonderful.
I've never fully warmed to Kullervo (just as I've never fully warmed to RVW's Sea Symphony). Thus I haven't a favorite among the half-dozen or more recordings I own. I must be due for a Kullervo-thon.
On the other hand, I fell in love with the Lemminkäinen Legends the first time I heard it (Neeme Järvi). I bought it the same day. Segerstam's big, lush approach suits it, but so does Vänskä's leaner approach and Sakari's raw one. My favorite, however, is Franck -- hands down!
19 Sibelius cycles seems excessive. I'm more than content with 18 plus a couple of near cycles. ;) Every bit as essential as Mahler and Beethoven, if your heart resonates to Sibelius's music like it does to no other.
Luonnotar is great and I love Isokoski's recording of it (and everything else on that disc), but my favorite is still Valjakka with Berglund/Bournemouth. There's a rawness to her approach that really does it for me. Another special one is Häggander with Panula. "M" and I had a rather lengthy discussion about the merits of these recordings a few years ago -- maybe on the old forum? Perhaps I should look it up to see what I said!
A few years ago when I was still participating on CMG I did a round of comparative listening to the violin concerto for a thread there. I was shocked to find how much I loved Mutter's recording. But it made sense afterwards when I considered that her broadly romantic bent coupled with extraordinary tone and finesse perhaps suit her ideally for this most romantic of Sibelius's works.
As for the symphonies, there are too many fine recordings of each for me to have but one or two favorites. Just as with Mahler even narrowing my choices to half a dozen or so is tough. Off the top of my head, I wouldn't want to be without any of Berglund's, Bernstein's, Blomstedt's, Vänskä's, Segerstam/HPO, or Sakari's complete cycles. If I had to make do with three, Blomstedt, Bernstein, and Berglund/COE would make the cut. But I wouldn't part easily with Maazel/WP, either.
And the tone poems and incidental theatre music, Voces Intimae, the songs, many of the later salon piano sets ... there's so much great music by him that's even less appreciated than his symphonies but well worth exploring! It's nice to see some love for old baldy expressed here again! 8)
Maybe I'll do a little thinking about and listening to individual symphonies and see how I feel about some old favorites these days.
I can't tell you guys how much I love the Lemminkäinen Suite. What a fantastic work. Outside the symphonies, one of Sibelius' most substantial compositions IMHO. He composed so much good music that it's hard to take it all in sometimes. From the symphonies to the tone poems to the works for violin/orchestra to the choral works, there's a whole plethora of remarkable music to be heard. As a hardcore Sibelian, I just can't get enough. I'm really looking forward to listening to Gibson's symphony cycle. I've heard most of his tone poem performances as I own the 2-CD set on Chandos, but I bought two more Gibson recordings today that I didn't own. One with Lemminkäinen Suite and the other with lesser known works like Scenes Historiques and Rakastava. Also Dave Ross' comment about Mutter's Sibelius performance prompted me to finally buy it.
Sibelius is one of my favorite composer, and I have quite number recordings (though far from what Sarge, DavidRoss and many GMGers have). As far I know, my favorite cycle is Segerstam or Maazel (Decca) though I like Bernstein, Karajan, Berglund and Barbirolli, Sanderling (in the early symphonies) much (I have not heard Vanska or Ashkenazy). I only can not be convinced by three cycle, Berglund (COE), Blomstedt and Jarvi. I don't know what happens when Berglund reversed his acclaimed approach with HSO to the lean, clear but dry, lacks the tension with the COE. Blomstedt is always Blomstedt, good and clear playing but nothing special or unique vision happens. Jarvi is even worse.
I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?
Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?
Edit: That might have seemed a bit flip--though it's an accurate characterization of Roz's approach: guns blazing (well, brass blazing, actually), powerful, and intense. Ain't no namby-pamby subtlety about this one. The sound is pretty poor in relation to the standards of Western Europe and North America in those days--at least on my old copy, can't speak about the new one. If it hasn't been remastered, expect somewhat cavernous sound (was some of it recorded in an airplane hangar?) I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice, but if you already have two or three reference cycles then it's an interesting alternative.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?
I remember the Mel Brooks musical ....
Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PMBlomstedt is always Blomstedt, good and clear playing but nothing special or unique vision happens.
+1 :)
I'm beginning to favor Colin Davis' LSO Live cycle though even though I spoke of my personal disdain for his previous cycles.
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?
Edit: That might have seemed a bit flip--though it's an accurate characterization of Roz's approach: guns blazing (well, brass blazing, actually), powerful, and intense. Ain't no namby-pamby subtlety about this one. The sound is pretty poor in relation to the standards of Western Europe and North America in those days--at least on my old copy, can't speak about the new one. If it hasn't been remastered, expect somewhat cavernous sound (was some of it recorded in an airplane hangar?) I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice, but if you already have two or three reference cycles then it's an interesting alternative.
Thank you for your advice. Your description convinces me to buy it. The intense, hot-blooded, Soviet-like seems a good vision when approaching Sibelius.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2012, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2012, 12:14:24 PM
So am I the only Sibelian who thinks both Davis and Bernstein are terrific? ;D
Sarge
Hah!
I should revisit the Davis/BSO Sixth. I certainly think highly of both Blomstedt and Lenny.
Now at last I've seen to this. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg667564.html#msg667564)
Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?
I love that set. It wouldn't be my first or only cycle, but it is fascinating for Rozh's super-dramatic approach and the sound of the orchestra. Russian orchestras don't really sound like that anymore. The set divides people: some love it, some hate it.
Here's an earlier thread on it:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480
Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?
I bought it as an experiment a while ago when I was on a big Sibelius binge, and loved it. It's idiosyncratically Russian, but it immediately made an impact on me; and at the end of my binge I decided that top of my pile of Sibelius was Segerstam's cycle, and if I only had that, plus the Rozhdestvensky as a stark contrast, I probably had nailed all the Sibelius symphonies I needed.
But then funny things happened. More and more I found myself I reaching for Rozhdestvensky when I wanted a Sibelius symphony, and Segerstam (wonderful though he is) started to seem a bit too ...
lush, I think is the word I'm after. And here today, hand on heart, I think I'd put Rozhdestvensky at the top of my pile. This is all very personal of course, and it all depends on what you want from your Sibelius (I want ice, and crisp white snow, and wind whirling through firs, and vast blue frozen skies); but I'd say that even if it turned out
not to be a favourite cycle for you, it's unlikely that you'd ever regret the purchase - so interesting would be the journey of discovery.
Thank you for all recommend, Velimir, Elgarian. My taste in music after Mozart is always something intense, hot-blood, profound no matter its interventionist or not (that why I love Bernstein's, Tennstedt's, Karajan's, Solti's, Klemperer's Mahler but don't really like Tilson Thomas though his approaching in Mahler is subjective and interventionist). So possibly I love Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius.
Quote from: trung224 on October 15, 2012, 01:41:22 PM
Thank you for all recommend, Velimir, Elgarian. My taste in music after Mozart is always something intense, hot-blood, profound no matter its interventionist or not (that why I love Bernstein's, Tennstedt's, Karajan's, Solti's, Klemperer's Mahler but don't really like Tilson Thomas though his approaching in Mahler is subjective and interventionist). So possibly I love Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius.
You switched from Mozart to Mahler there. Are they interchangeable?
Quote from: Scarpia on October 15, 2012, 01:44:12 PM
You switched from Mozart to Mahler there. Are they interchangeable?
I want to clarify my taste about music from Beethoven to Mahler. Mahler is only an example :D
Quote from: trung224 on October 15, 2012, 01:56:39 PM
I want to clarify my taste about music from Beethoven to Mahler. Mahler is only an example :D
Ooops, I see. But Mozart should not be intense?
Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies :P So I can not make a statement based on minority :). Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart
Quote from: trung224 on October 15, 2012, 02:10:32 PM
Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies :P So I can not make a statement based on minority :). Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart
Don't forget the
Sturm und Drang No. 25.
Quote from: trung224 on October 15, 2012, 02:10:32 PM
Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies :P So I can not make a statement based on minority :). Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart
Ever listened to Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw?
No, I have only heard Harnoncourt's effort with COE, which can not be describe as intense. Thanks for mention, Scarpia, I'm sure I consider it
Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.
Thread duty: It's an age since I've listened to it, but the Sibelius Sixth was indeed one of HvK's successes, I should think.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 02:16:35 AM
Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.
Thread duty: It's an age since I've listened to it, but the Sibelius Sixth was indeed one of HvK's successes, I should think.
Unfortunately I agree with this. I have never heard any 'intensity' from Mozarts orchestral works at all, though Don Giovanni and some others can be said to hold
some intensity. Intense in a great word, but certainly not for Mozart. Maybe things like Berlioz's famous symphony, much of Mahlers works, Sibelius 7th, Bruckner 9th, this kind of thing...that is intensity for me.
My favourite composer, Kurt Atterberg, also lacks 'intensity', but is such a romp he can be well forgiven.
Mind you, of course I do not consider this any "failing" on Mozart's part. It's just the wrong word; by and large, that's not what his work is about.
Back to Sibelius... color me slow, but I didn't realize at first that Sarge's chart is in ascending order of duration of the first movement ... and therefore that Colin Davis conducts the briefest, from this sampling.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 03:23:17 AM
Back to Sibelius... color me slow, but I didn't realize at first that Sarge's chart is in ascending order of duration of the first movement ... and therefore that Colin Davis conducts the briefest, from this sampling.
He's also the second briefest overall (only Maazel/Vienna takes less time and he accomplishes that primarily with incredibly fast inner movements). The Sixth was my Sibelius problem child, a symphony I simply didn't get for many years. Not until I heard Davis. His tempos make the conclusion of each movement sound surprising and quite abrupt but strangely enigmatic also. It also gives Sibelius a Mozartian lightness (and Davis is a fine conductor of Mozart). That appealed to me...appeals to me. It's still my favorite Sixth although I enjoy slower versions now too.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2012, 04:13:57 AM
He's also the second briefest overall (only Maazel/Vienna takes less time and he accomplishes that primarily with incredibly fast inner movements). The Sixth was my Sibelius problem child, a symphony I simply didn't get for many years. Not until I heard Davis. His tempos make the conclusion of each movement sound surprising and quite abrupt but strangely enigmatic also. It also gives Sibelius a Mozartian lightness (and Davis is a fine conductor of Mozart). That appealed to me...appeals to me. It's still my favorite Sixth although I enjoy slower versions now too.
Sarge
Yes! I think of the Sixth as having a kammermusiklich lightness (though that is another reason why I am curious to revisit HvK here, more on which presently). And as to the enigmatical conclusions of the movements . . . from early on, I think I must have intuitively taken the symphony as trending towards the symphony-in-one-movement, sinfonia quasi una fantasia conception of the Seventh. I had already fallen for the piece, and listened to it, transfixed, a dozen times, before I concerned myself with Where does the second movement begin? e.g.
Which brings me to [re-]acknowledgement that it was in the HvK recording (the same disc with the Fourth which left me so entirely unconvinced of that great work) that the Sixth initially enchanted me. From a number of angles (revisitation of that account of the Fourth, e.g.) I've grown curious to listen afresh to the Herbster here. Cheap though it is, I've not reeled in the Trio . . . insufficiently interested in a set filled out by Okko Kamu (not to speak him at all ill). I liked better the idea of the Originals two-fer, including Tapiola, I discovered, and so at last I've pulled the trigger on that 'un.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 02:16:35 AM
Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 03:23:17 AM
Mind you, of course I do not consider this any "failing" on Mozart's part. It's just the wrong word; by and large, that's not what his work is about.
Aside from my relief that you deem Mozart of some value, despite the lack of intensity, I find this puzzling. Is there any music of the period more 'intense' than the close of Don Giovanni, where the Don is dragged to the horrors of hell? The two minor-key piano concerti also contain passages of harrowing intensity, to my ears. The fuge on Kyrie eleison from the Requiem is another place where I hear an intensity in Mozart's transformation of the 'academic' style of Bach. And aside from these broad examples, what I find thrilling about Mozart is that an intense moment can spring up in the most unexpected place. For instance, the exposition of the symphony No 41, 1st movement, ends with a charming tune that suddenly become the subject of an intense fugato as the development section begins.
Aside from these considerations, my remark about intensity mainly dealt with performance practice. Harnoncourt's Mozart style changed in later recordings, but in the Concertgebouw recordings he cultivated a more aggressive style. They are the opposite of the stereotypical polite Mozart style (think Neville Marriner). Strings play with bite. Brass and horns, instead of providing gently accompaniment with rounded tones, bark agressively. Large modern timpani played gently with soft mallets are replaced by the twack of smaller drums played with hard mallets. Hearing these recordings completely changed my view of Mozart. Recent recordings by Minkowski and Rene Jacobs have brought a similar energy to performance of Mozart's late symphonies, but I do not think they exceed what Harnoncourt accomplished in those Concertgebouw recordings from the 80's.
New release.
Great old performances of Pohjola's Daughter and Tapiola.
[asin]B00925TBR2[/asin]
My favourite Sibelius symphony keeps changing!! :D
Currently, it's now the 6th (for the 1st time).
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2012, 02:05:18 PM
My favourite Sibelius symphony keeps changing!! :D
Currently, it's now the 6th (for the 1st time).
Cool,
Ray!
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2012, 02:05:18 PM
My favourite Sibelius symphony keeps changing!! :D
Currently, it's now the 6th (for the 1st time).
The 6th is my current favorite too! :) This symphony is sometimes referred to as Sibelius' "pastoral symphony." I love the understated tone of this work. It took me multiple listening to fully appreciate it's alluring nature.
I dunno . . . I almost think the Third more pastoral than the Sixth . . . .
The 6th is possibly my favourite too. Vaughan Williams greatly admired it.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 04:23:16 PM
I dunno . . . I almost think the Third more pastoral than the Sixth . . . .
The 3rd is such a fascinating symphony! Highly underrated too I think. Honestly, I love all of Sibelius' symphonies and wouldn't be without any of them.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2012, 12:36:53 PM
The 6th is possibly my favourite too. Vaughan Williams greatly admired it.
It's easy to hear a little Sibelius in Vaughan Williams. It's hard to explain but there's just something about the harmonic language of RVW that sometimes reminds me of Sibelius. Maybe, GMG composer-in-residence, Dr. Henning can explain this?
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 02:16:35 AMOkay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.
Wow, a forumite who's never heard the requiem!
Quote from: CriticalI on October 17, 2012, 07:37:13 PM
Wow, a forumite who's never heard the requiem!
I don't find WAM's Requiem to be emotionally intense. Spiritually uplifting and solemn, perhaps, but not intense. For comparison, think of Cherubini's Requiem, a generation or so later.
However, I think emotional intensity is a good way to describe several of the later symphonies and a number of the piano concertos--especially Symphony no. 40. In the operas, I think Clemenza di Tito and Zauberflote both achieve emotional intense moments (or at least, are able to, in the hands of the right performers), and Don Giovanni does not. There's a sense of vaudeville or Grade B movies in Don Giovanni; the only emotionally intense moments are at the very beginning, with the murder of the Commandante and the scena with Donna Anna which immediately follows, and in Donna Elvira's 'big number". All the other scenes that might have an emotional impact are undercut by the comedy. Even the Don being dragged into Hell is undercut by Leporello's comic fright.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2012, 07:56:41 PMI don't find WAM's Requiem to be emotionally intense. Spiritually uplifting and solemn, perhaps, but not intense. For comparison, think of Cherubini's Requiem, a generation or so later.
Sorry, are you saying Cherubini is more intense than Mozart? Wow. I nonetheless find the Mozart intense - it's not Prokofiev's 20th Anniversary cantata (!), but still a high point of darkness and drama for me (obviously it also has uplifting parts).
From merriam-webster.com:
Definition of INTENSE
1a : existing in an extreme degree <the excitement was intense> <intense pain>
b : having or showing a characteristic in extreme degree <intense colors>
2: marked by or expressive of great zeal, energy, determination, or concentration <intense effort>
3a : exhibiting strong feeling or earnestness of purpose <an intense student>
b : deeply felt
Quote from: CriticalI on October 17, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
Sorry, are you saying Cherubini is more intense than Mozart? Wow. I nonetheless find the Mozart intense - it's not Prokofiev's 20th Anniversary cantata (!), but still a high point of darkness and drama for me (obviously it also has uplifting parts).
Cherubini's Requiem is less restrained in its emotional expression than Mozart's, and less optimistic in tone.
If you don't need to stick to Requiems, think of the contrast between Mozart's Requiem and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.
To keep this on thread topic, I'll suggest a parallel comparison, although it doesn't apply across the board to the music of both men--Sibelius's music can be more intense and darker than Bruckner's.
BTW, if you are interested there was some continuation of this discussion on the Mozart thread.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
BTW, if you are interested there was some continuation of this discussion on the Mozart thread.
What? Discussing Mozart on the Mozart thread!!!! Shocking! What is the world coming to.
(Thanks for the pointer. I normally don't read the Mozart thread....)
::)
How about we all get back to Sibelius since this is his thread and talk about Mozart on the Mozart thread? Sound good?
Anyway, back to Sibelius...
I was surprised to read that Sarge does not own Berglund's Helsinki set. My question to Sarge: is there any particular reason you've been avoiding these performances?
Quote from: Scots John on October 16, 2012, 03:15:46 AM
My favourite composer, Kurt Atterberg, also lacks 'intensity', but is such a romp he can be well forgiven.
Not even in the Fifth? I do see what you mean, though. Mozart achieves that in a few piano concerto movements.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 16, 2012, 08:43:55 AMRecent recordings by Minkowski and Rene Jacobs have brought a similar energy to performance of Mozart's late symphonies, but I do not think they exceed what Harnoncourt accomplished in those Concertgebouw recordings from the 80's.
My preference, over Jacobs even, is Mackerras/Scottish CO on Linn.
Back on subject:
For some reason, this month my thoughts have been more and more with Sibelius' First. Like Ray, I find myself preoccupied with a symphony that didn't demand this much attention from me at any time in the past!
Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 04:42:10 AM
Yes! I think of the Sixth as having a kammermusiklich lightness (though that is another reason why I am curious to revisit HvK here, more on which presently). And as to the enigmatical conclusions of the movements . . . from early on, I think I must have intuitively taken the symphony as trending towards the symphony-in-one-movement, sinfonia quasi una fantasia conception of the Seventh. I had already fallen for the piece, and listened to it, transfixed, a dozen times, before I concerned myself with Where does the second movement begin? e.g.
Which brings me to [re-]acknowledgement that it was in the HvK recording (the same disc with the Fourth which left me so entirely unconvinced of that great work) that the Sixth initially enchanted me. From a number of angles (revisitation of that account of the Fourth, e.g.) I've grown curious to listen afresh to the Herbster here. Cheap though it is, I've not reeled in the Trio . . . insufficiently interested in a set filled out by Okko Kamu (not to speak him at all ill). I liked better the idea of the Originals two-fer, including Tapiola, I discovered, and so at last I've pulled the trigger on that 'un.
Interesting. Past symphonies 1-2, opinions differ so very wildly, about the real nature of Sibelius. Some hear it in the 4th, others in the 7th, yet some others hear it in the 5th, his most
public symphony. Few hear it in the 3rd or the 6th. The latter is definitely the Cinderella among the symphonies. Will the real princess step forward and fit the crystal shoe?
Transcribed into modern musical linguo, that would suggest a very special set of musical attributes: cool timbres, expansive tempo allied to taut phrasing, translucent sound.
IMHO no version has caught the true nature of the 6th as Karajan has. Esp. In the DG recording. Davis BSO and Rozhdestvensky are also quite good. But do give Karakan a try. It's among his half dozen best-ever recordings.
Quote from: André on October 19, 2012, 06:43:17 PM
IMHO no version has caught the true nature of the 6th as Karajan has. Esp. In the DG recording. Davis BSO and Rozhdestvensky are also quite good. But do give Karakan a try. It's among his half dozen best-ever recordings.
I agree Karajan's 6th on DG is outstanding, but it doesn't completely clear my mind of Vanska's performance which I rate equally.
Cross-post from the Grumble:Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2012, 08:25:33 AM
Enjoying the inherent oxymoron in the tempo designation (used more than once by Sibelius) of Allegro molto moderato . . . .
Just heard Finlandia (Saraste) on the car radio. I have not really listened to it (like 'Freebird', y'know?), but here it just came across as grantitic and melodic Sibelius the way I like it. I shouldn't shy away from it any more,... but, that said, Saraste was good and all, but I'd like some Top Recommendations. I've always been partial to Gibson, but I'm sure the sound could be improved upon.
There was one moment, early on, when it seemed like a certain minor-ish melody popped into relief for a moment,... that classic Sibelius chord that I'm supposing is the one that sends the shivers up everyone's leg like it does for me.
Actually I don't remember Finlandia all that well. Oh well, in seven weeks I've heard it enough times for another year.
Personally, I like Finlandia. I know a Finnish person must get tired of hearing it, but to these American ears it still sounds fresh and exciting. I really like Segerstam's performance of this work on Ondine. I do recall enjoying Ashkenazy's as well. Barbirolli and Berglund (Helsinki) also had good performances of this popular classic. I'm one of those listeners who doesn't wear out well-known works and sometimes even purposely avoids them. A great example would be Debussy's Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune. I knew this was a popular work, but I was careful not to overplay it. To be honest, I wasn't a big fan of the work until I recently heard Abbado's performance of it with the Berliners on DG. I have Abbado to thank for making this work finally click for me.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 23, 2012, 09:59:02 AM
Just heard Finlandia (Saraste) on the car radio. I have not really listened to it (like 'Freebird', y'know?), but here it just came across as grantitic and melodic Sibelius the way I like it. I shouldn't shy away from it any more,... but, that said, Saraste was good and all, but I'd like some Top Recommendations. I've always been partial to Gibson, but I'm sure the sound could be improved upon.
There was one moment, early on, when it seemed like a certain minor-ish melody popped into relief for a moment,... that classic Sibelius chord that I'm supposing is the one that sends the shivers up everyone's leg like it does for me.
Get Horst Stein (if you want a version without chorus). He's rather cool emotionally (he doesn't milk the hymn). The CD has a great En Saga too. It can be had for 37 cents (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000E3B7/ref=sr_1_5_up_1_main_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1351078222&sr=1-5&condition=used) ;D
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/sibeliussteinSR.jpg)
My favorites are Segerstam (with chorus) and Vänskä but I don't think Vänskä is available outside of box sets. I couldn't find a single CD anyway.
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
I'm one of those listeners who doesn't wear out well-known works and sometimes even purposely avoids them.
yupster! ;)
Driving through the concrete, steel, and glass heart of a major city, at night, alone, with Sibelius' Seventh on your car stereo is a truly humbling spiritual experience.
That said, getting to your place in only fifteen minutes and having to drive around some more waiting for the symphony to end is a little annoying.
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
Driving through the concrete, steel, and glass heart of a major city, at night, alone, with Sibelius' Seventh on your car stereo is a truly humbling spiritual experience.
That said, getting to your place in only fifteen minutes and having to drive around some more waiting for the symphony to end is a little annoying.
I usually park and just settle back in the car. I've done that parked outside my office at work and even sitting in the driveway at home!
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
Driving through the concrete, steel, and glass heart of a major city, at night, alone, with Sibelius' Seventh on your car stereo is a truly humbling spiritual experience.
I once listened to it driving through a snowstorm. I think that's more appropriate than a modern city, especially if it's someplace hot like Houston.
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
Driving through the concrete, steel, and glass heart of a major city, at night, alone, with Sibelius' Seventh on your car stereo is a truly humbling spiritual experience.
...
Yes, I can imagine that. Somehow your words evoked a beautiful cinematic image in my mind, like setting the atmosphere for an interesting film ...
Quote from: Velimir on October 25, 2012, 01:38:44 PM
I once listened to it driving through a snowstorm.
Heh, yes, Dallas, about 75 outside. That sounds like an incredible experience as well (the Seventh would also work while stargazing I think). Do you know what I would love to listen to in a snowstorm? Luonnotar - those first bars, the swirling strings. If the snow gets heavier, Tapiola... when it stops falling, Symphony No 6.
Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2012, 01:54:36 PM
... when it stops falling, Symphony No 6.
A few years back I was in Karelia (the Russian part, around Lake Onega) for several days in the late summer. I kept hearing the 6th Symphony in my head, especially its 2nd movement. All the flowing water around (rivers, creeks, falls) and the mysterious (but not scary) feeling of the deep woods seemed to be encapsulated in that movement.
Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
Driving through the concrete, steel, and glass heart of a major city, at night, alone, with Sibelius' Seventh on your car stereo is a truly humbling spiritual experience.
That said, getting to your place in only fifteen minutes and having to drive around some more waiting for the symphony to end is a little annoying.
In my youth I did a stint of photographic darkroom work. Listening to Sibelius in the dark was downright scary.
The great thing about Sibelius' symphonies, is that when I listen to them, I have to listen to all 7! :) Hard to pick a favourite, and it changes all the time.
However, lately, my favourite has to be the ethereal 6th! :)
That's funny, because very rarely I'll feel that, but most of the time I only really want to listen to one or two. Like, right now, I'm only in a mood to hear the Third. There are also times where I only have ears for the Sixth, or the Second. It's only really on my yearly Sibelius binge that I'll want to hear many of the symphonies in the same time frame.
Quote from: The new erato on October 25, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
In my youth I did a stint of photographic darkroom work. Listening to Sibelius in the dark was downright scary.
A long time ago, when I was young and more impulsive and still lived in Scotland, I drove up to a forested part of the Trossachs on a clear, moonlit winter night so as to listen to
Tapiola in a truly appropriate location. Sitting in the forest with Sibelius' music was both a humbling experience and a pretty scary one--it didn't take too long for my eyes to keep spotting movement at the edge of my field of vision.
Honestly, it's an experience I'd recommend to everyone, though. Just bring a friend. :)
It's back!!!
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2013, 06:26:49 AM
It's back!!!
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
(* pounds the table *)
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2013, 06:26:49 AM
It's back!!!
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)
And only €13.99 at Amazon DE 8)
Edit: And even cheaper from Amazon US.
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2013, 06:26:49 AM
It's back!!!
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
And only £9 post free on Amazon.uk.
£9? If I wait a bit longer, will they pay me to take one off their hands?
I've got 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies, do I really need to add Berglund/Bournemouth?
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
I've got 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies, do I really need to add Berglund/Bournemouth?
Of course not. Not
need.
Wantz! With 18 cycles, you've shown a history of zero ability to resist a temptation... so that's a pretty good indication you'll get this one, too. Which ones do you
not have, in any case? ;)
I've updated for the Berglund below...
Better viewed her: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
- - - -
Survey of Sibelius Symphony CyclesTime to update: New version of Maazel II, first boxed CD incidence of Davis I.
The spot freed up by the formerly necessary second volume of Davis is taken by Sixtus Ehrling's Stockholm cycle that had not been included previously.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | *V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hY7ajufkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Decca ~$25,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACXcbxwSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51USmBPt2DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | S. Ehrling,
Royal Stockholm PO
Finlandia $50,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | *L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/7/9736002.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
EMI (back in print!) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | *O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel I,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | *K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | *Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | *H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | *P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | *S. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | *P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: jlaurson on January 04, 2013, 08:38:07 AM
Of course not. Not need. Wantz! With 18 cycles, you've shown a history of zero ability to resist a temptation... so that's a pretty good indication you'll get this one, too. Which ones do you not have, in any case? ;)
I've updated for the Berglund below...
Better viewed her: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
- - - -
Survey of Sibelius Symphony CyclesTime to update: New version of Maazel II, first boxed CD incidence of Davis I.
The spot freed up by the formerly necessary second volume of Davis is taken by Sixtus Ehrling's Stockholm cycle that had not been included previously.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | *V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hY7ajufkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Decca ~$25,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACXcbxwSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51USmBPt2DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | S. Ehrling,
Royal Stockholm PO
Finlandia $50,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | *L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/7/9736002.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
EMI (back in print!) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | *O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel I,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | *K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | *Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | *H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | *P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | *S. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | *P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
There are several from your list that I do not own: Berglund I, Berglund III, Saraste, Jarvi I, Collins, Watanabe, Segerstam I, and Ehrling.
QuoteQuote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
I've got 18 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies, do I really need to add Berglund/Bournemouth?
Of course not. Not need. Wantz! With 18 cycles, you've shown a history of zero ability to resist a temptation... so that's a pretty good indication you'll get this one, too. Which ones do you not have, in any case? ;)
I've updated for the Berglund below...
Better viewed here
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
- - - -
Survey of Sibelius Symphony CyclesTime to update: New version of Maazel II, first boxed CD incidence of Davis I.
The spot freed up by the formerly necessary second volume of Davis is taken by Sixtus Ehrling's Stockholm cycle that had not been included previously.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | *V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hY7ajufkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Decca ~$25,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACXcbxwSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51USmBPt2DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | S. Ehrling,
Royal Stockholm PO
Finlandia $50,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | *L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/7/9736002.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
EMI (back in print!) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | *O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel I,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | *K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | *Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | *H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | *P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | *S. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | *P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2013, 09:28:05 AM
There are several from your list that I do not own: Berglund I, Berglund III, Saraste, Jarvi I, Collins, Watanabe, Segerstam I, and Ehrling.
I'm just getting started on the first half of Collins... Saraste is fine, but not crazy-good. But Berglund III! That's friggin' awesome stuff. I LOVE that cycle... so different from the others I love. Very light, transparent, no emoting... yet profoundly touching.
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2013, 11:26:49 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=341.msg685658#msg685658)
It's back!!!
>(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
Yes!! - I've had this one on pre-order for about a month, really looking forward to recieving it! :D
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2013, 06:26:49 AM
It's back!!!
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/5099997360056.jpg)
I brought this news home three months ago!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 03, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Finally, the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle appears set to be reissued. So far UK only, apparently. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Tapiola-Finlandia/dp/B0091JQH2Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349322135&sr=1-1)
I have nothing but the 5th from this cycle (along with the violin concerto) but if the rest is as gloriously recorded as this one (which I don't have on the original EMI) I'd say it's almost a must-buy.
But yes, eagerly awaiting myself. :)
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
Updated, completed, internationalized, and prettified!
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: Fafner on January 19, 2013, 07:13:03 AM
Jean Sibelius - Symphony No. 1
Lahti Symphony Orchestra, orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
[asin]B004UJ2KC8[/asin]
I must admit to a terrible black hole in my classical education: this is the
first time I have heard anything by Sibelius (Well, except Finlandia) and it seems I have a new favourite composer. It's a whole new world. :o
Quote from: Fafner on January 19, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
I must admit to a terrible black hole in my classical education: this is the first time I have heard anything by Sibelius (Well, except Finlandia) and it seems I have a new favourite composer. It's a whole new world. :o
That's how black holes work, they suck you in :)
Quote from: Fafner on January 19, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
I must admit to a terrible black hole in my classical education: this is the first time I have heard anything by Sibelius (Well, except Finlandia) and it seems I have a new favourite composer. It's a whole new world. :o
What? Wow, seriously? Well, I've certainly heard a lot more surprising things, but I figured for a guy who's into 20th Century music much like yourself that Sibelius would have been unexplored territory for you. Anyway, welcome to the incredibly beautiful world of Sibelius! :D
Incidentally, I do own this CD:
[asin]B000025O3A[/asin]
I once grabbed it in a bargain bin with lots of other stuff and I never listened to it in all those years. ::)
Quote from: Fafner on January 19, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
I must admit to a terrible black hole in my classical education: this is the first time I have heard anything by Sibelius (Well, except Finlandia) and it seems I have a new favourite composer. It's a whole new world. :o
Oh my gosh! I envy you now. Keep your ears open... it gets better, it gets transcendent! Tell us about it. :)
Quote from: jlaurson on January 04, 2013, 10:15:18 AM
Berglund III! That's friggin' awesome stuff. I LOVE that cycle...
That makes two of us, at least. I still shake my head at the lukewarm or even dismissive reviews this cycle received from many critics when issued. But as recent history continues to demonstrate, there is no limit to human stupidity. ;)
Quote from: Fafner on January 19, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
I must admit to a terrible black hole in my classical education: this is the first time I have heard anything by Sibelius (Well, except Finlandia) and it seems I have a new favourite composer. It's a whole new world. :o
:o
There are awesome things awaiting you - from Lemminkäinen, Luonnotar, Pohjola's daughter, Night Ride & Sunrise, and Tapiola to the rest of the Symphonies and the Violin Concerto.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zes8Rv8CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ouswuwwkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I am quite psyched to have this Bournemouth set back and so affordable; I heard one comment elsewhere that it's all been newly remastered. Since EMI seems to have history of worsening some recordings with its remastering---this is true, no?---I would enjoy hearing an account of the sound from those of you who knew these recordings before.
By the way, I am assuming the non-symphonic extras in the new Bournemouth collection are the same performances as were included in the old EMI 'powder blue' 8cd Berglund/Sibelius box (above, right)? Of course, all of this is academic, because I'm going to buy this new one anyway...
Quote from: Octave on January 26, 2013, 08:46:56 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zes8Rv8CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ouswuwwkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I am quite psyched to have this Bournemouth set back and so affordable; I heard one comment elsewhere that it's all been newly remastered. Since EMI seems to have history of worsening some recordings with its remastering---this is true, no?---I would enjoy hearing an account of the sound from those of you who knew these recordings before.
By the way, I am assuming the non-symphonic extras in the new Bournemouth collection are the same performances as were included in the old EMI 'powder blue' 8cd Berglund/Sibelius box (above, right)? Of course, all of this is academic, because I'm going to buy this new one anyway...
Im not sure about the remasterings but I do think the re-issue BSO set sounds well good. The tone poems from the new box are the same as those in the big blue box for sure so there is some duplication.
I think the BSO set is really good and even think it is a bit better than the HPO versions :)
Quote from: Octave on January 26, 2013, 08:46:56 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zes8Rv8CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I am quite psyched to have this Bournemouth set back and so affordable; I heard one comment elsewhere that it's all been newly remastered. Since EMI seems to have history of worsening some recordings with its remastering---this is true, no?---I would enjoy hearing an account of the sound from those of you who knew these recordings before.
Newly remastered? Oh, no! Now I just might have to break my vow and buy more CDs after all! (Even though the older edition is no worse than most CDs of the time.)
I have the Disky Royal Classics edition on CD. There's no information in the packaging about the digital conversion, but since the sound doesn't suffer the shrill digital glare so common among CDs of the '80s, I presume it was done in the '90s by someone who more-or-less knew what he was doing.
The sound quality doesn't bother me. It's a bit recessed, almost as if you were hearing the orchestra from a doorway tunnel leading to the back of the orchestra seating section. It's not a good choice to demonstrate the "sound stage" of your hi fi rig. ;)
It's also just a bit muddy or muffled, but I think that's due to the orchestra, which performs well enough for a third-tier band but they're hardly as tight as the BP. They're very soft-edged, even a bit mushy: attacks are more like a kid's soccer team ambling to their positions on the field than a precisely executed cavalry charge.
Hint: The upcoming second disc of the new Vänskä cycle with Minnesota Orchestra (symphonies 1 & 4) is currently available to download on eClassical.com, and it's discounted -50% along with all of the Minnesota Orchestra BIS releases. It's only available till this friday and then, as far as I understand, is withdrawn until the actual release date in March.
http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html (http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html)
http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/ (http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/)
Quote from: radi on January 30, 2013, 04:07:06 AM
Hint: The upcoming second disc of the new Vänskä cycle with Minnesota Orchestra (symphonies 1 & 4) is currently available to download on eClassical.com, and it's discounted -50% along with all of the Minnesota Orchestra BIS releases. It's only available till this friday and then, as far as I understand, is withdrawn until the actual release date in March.
http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html (http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html)
http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/ (http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/)
Good news plus bad: Looking forward to the recording, but I'll have to wait until March, I guess. ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 30, 2013, 08:04:48 AM
Good news plus bad: Looking forward to the recording, but I'll have to wait until March, I guess. ;)
Are those MINORS in your avatar?!?!? :o CPS CPS CPS
Quote from: snyprrr on January 30, 2013, 06:46:53 PM
Are those MINORS in your avatar?!?!? :o CPS CPS CPS
Surely they were paid-for-models of age (not that it really matters). Perhaps the same models that assisted him (Georges Seurat) paint "A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte", which is in the background, and makes this one of the great self-referential ("meta", if you will) paintings. The "8 1/2" of its time.
Quote from: snyprrr on January 30, 2013, 06:46:53 PM
Are those MINORS in your avatar?!?!? :o CPS CPS CPS
No, snips -- that's what women looked like before silicone (and Big Macs). :D
There was a time . . . before Big Macs©?
Quote from: radi on January 30, 2013, 04:07:06 AM
Hint: The upcoming second disc of the new Vänskä cycle with Minnesota Orchestra (symphonies 1 & 4) is currently available to download on eClassical.com, and it's discounted -50% along with all of the Minnesota Orchestra BIS releases. It's only available till this friday and then, as far as I understand, is withdrawn until the actual release date in March.
http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html (http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html)
http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/ (http://www.eclassical.com/orchestras/minnesota-orchestra/)
Take note, eClassical's thirty-second sample can be extended if you simply press play again. I listened to about two minutes of Symphony 1, movement 1, and the main allegro is the fastest I've ever heard. The scherzo is also shockingly fast. By contrast, the Fourth sample clips indicated one of the
slowest readings I know. An unusual interpretive contrast!
Letting some Herbie dominate my system with this 180 gram hunk of wax. Man, this Hi-Q label truly delivers in sound. I bought it months ago, but am just now giving it a first spin. This is the September 1960 recording that I believe EMI has on disc. Anyone else here enjoy this 5th from Karajan? In your book, here does it rank in the three? recordings of the 5th that he did?
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AHIR_010__77130__08242011093318-2445.jpg)
Any comments on the below performance are most welcome, as this lp is available for preorder and under consideration at this end:
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AHIR_026__89306__01232013043120-5082.jpg)
Any difference between the first two sets save the price?
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11179&name_role1=1&name_id2=7449&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=2777
Quote from: Bogey on January 31, 2013, 06:36:13 PM
Any difference between the first two sets save the price?
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11179&name_role1=1&name_id2=7449&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=2777
No difference I'm aware of, Bill. Should be safe with the cheap one.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 31, 2013, 07:36:04 PM
No difference I'm aware of, Bill. Should be safe with the cheap one.
Thanks, Don. Any opinion on that Kletzki above?
Quote from: Bogey on January 31, 2013, 05:55:20 PM
Anyone else here enjoy this 5th from Karajan? In your book, here does it rank in the three? recordings of the 5th that he did?
Karajan's Fifths are not among my favorites. He ignores the score, ignores what Sibelius asks for, and rushes the final chords. He does it on all his recordings. I've never directly compared the three I have...the live '57 Sony, the EMI (both CDs) and a LP with the DG Fifth...but suspect the live performance would edge out the two studio recordings.
Sarge
Quote from: Bogey on February 01, 2013, 03:51:58 AM
Thanks, Don. Any opinion on that Kletzki above?
Unfortunately I don't know anything about the Kletzki, Bill, but it's funny you should ask since I actually asked about this very recording just a few months ago - but the CD, not the LP. But I got no answer, either. I guess it's something of a mystery recording.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 16, 2012, 09:35:06 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on Kletzi's 2nd with the Philharmonia, from the mid-50s and recorded in stereo?
[asin]B000002SC4[/asin]
Thanks, Sarge.
OK, went to the local record shop where they have hundreds of classical lps gathering dust. I thought, hey, why not see if they have any Sibelius in the stacks. I was not expecting a Mozartian or Beethovian landslide of Sibelian vinyl, but I only found one record dedicated to his music and only another on a compilation album. I know they are out there....ebay has almost 2000 of them. However, my question is this. What were the peak years of this composer as far as popularity goes? Did he have any dips like Bach? Etc.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 01, 2013, 03:24:41 PM
Unfortunately I don't know anything about the Kletzki, Bill, but it's funny you should ask since I actually asked about this very recording just a few months ago - but the CD, not the LP. But I got no answer, either. I guess it's something of a mystery recording.
Time to dig around a bit more then. Did you already try to gather info on your own, Don? How about the liner notes....any help there?
Quote from: Bogey on February 01, 2013, 03:30:28 PM
Time to dig around a bit more then. Did you already try to gather info on your own, Don? How about the liner notes....any help there?
I never did buy the CD, unfortunately. So I'm still in the dark about the recording. :(
If you scroll through here, Don, it at least gives you a bit of insight into what he recorded, which might help.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=gould+bach+variations+uk&_ipg=50&_sadis=200&_adv=1&_sop=3&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_osacat=176985&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&_dmd=1&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=kletzki&_sacat=176985
including backing Pollini on early Chopin:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=kletzki&_ipg=50&_sadis=200&_adv=1&_sop=3&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_osacat=176985&_from=R40&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=kletzki+chopin&_sacat=176985
FWIW, the original pressing of the No 2 above from Kletzki went for $170, so $35 seems more reasonable.
Quote from: Bogey on February 01, 2013, 03:28:53 PM
What were the peak years of this composer as far as popularity goes? Did he have any dips like Bach? Etc.
We're in 'em, Bill, judging from the number of recordings issued in the past couple of decades and the increasing frequency of performances. No doubt his popularity will continue to grow over the next century or two as more people catch on to him. He was highly regarded in America and the UK in the early 20th Century, but aside from Finland & Scandinavia (where he has always had a significant following), he's been little appreciated elsewhere...but that, I think, is starting to change.
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 01, 2013, 08:47:13 PM
We're in 'em, Bill, judging from the number of recordings issued in the past couple of decades and the increasing frequency of performances. No doubt his popularity will continue to grow over the next century or two as more people catch on to him. He was highly regarded in America and the UK in the early 20th Century, but aside from Finland & Scandinavia (where he has always had a significant following), he's been little appreciated elsewhere...but that, I think, is starting to change.
Sibelius was hugely appreciated up to and throughout WWII (most performed foreign composer under the Nazis, I think, though not because of his politics). Needless to say, that (and his consonant style) didn't help his reception post WWII which is when he was almost eradicated from the continental European concert scene. Since then it's been England and by extension (!) the US -- apart from the Northern Countries -- that have upheld his legacy.
If anyone is interested I have just made a transfer of the Waverley/Saga LP of Gibson's Sibelius 3 and 7 from 1965. It's very good and well worth a listen. This transfer is being fully restored by Klassic Haus in the USA and should be available in March. I recommend the download version - they are always good quality from this source including artwork. Here's the link:
http://www.klassichaus.us/
Quote from: Bogey on February 01, 2013, 03:42:44 PM
If you scroll through here, Don, it at least gives you a bit of insight into what he recorded, which might help.
including backing Pollini on early Chopin:
Quite a nice discography. Thanks, Bill. He's been around!
I only know Kletzki from his standout Beethoven symphony cycle with the Czech Philharmonic. One of these days I'm gonna have to investigate more from him.
I recently got to know the relatively neglected 4th symphony and was absolutely spellbound by it....I realise that it is a masterfully constructed work, but what captivated me about it was the sense of the dark impenetrable nordic forest haunted my mystery and deep foreboding as well as a certain majesty....WONDERFUL....-:)
Quote from: dayveedh on February 04, 2013, 05:56:31 AM
I recently got to know the relatively neglected 4th symphony and was absolutely spellbound by it....I realise that it is a masterfully constructed work, but what captivated me about it was the sense of the dark impenetrable nordic forest haunted my mystery and deep foreboding as well as a certain majesty....WONDERFUL....-:)
It's often interesting to learn about the extra-musical associations some listeners have with certain pieces. I love the 4th. It might be my favorite Sibelius symphony, with no more than half a dozen other contenders for the title. ;) I've heard it said that for conductors trained at the Sibelius Academy, the 4th Symphony is like their Bible.
Which recording did you hear? Or were you fortunate enough to encounter it in a live performance?
And welcome to GMG!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 02, 2013, 08:53:21 PM
Quite a nice discography. Thanks, Bill. He's been around!
I only know Kletzki from his standout Beethoven symphony cycle with the Czech Philharmonic. One of these days I'm gonna have to investigate more from him.
I think his Sibelius is probably worth visiting. I've not heard it in a long time but I recall it as being very much on the Romantic end of Sibelius interpretations, though with generally brisker tempi than most people taking this route. I'd imagine this would suit the first two, in particular, down to the ground.
With so many Sibelius cycles out there, past and present, it is darn difficult to pin down a personal favourite. A while back (late last year) I got hooked up with Bernstein's cycle with the NYPO, and it quickly swept everything aside for me...at that time. Before this, I advocated Davis as the real Sibelian champion, and before that I had Ashkenazy and the Philharmonia on a plinth so high that Sibelius was to be voted in as the next Prime Minister of Finland (and the first posthumous one) and all musical matters should first be referenced to Johan Julius Christian Sibelius in writing, and furthermore he should be crowned King of Finland and damn near everything else.
:o
Anyhow, I have been jostling around with a number of Sibelius stuffs over the past few days, in between other stuff including making coffee, and I have discovered that, in fact, Davis is STILL the champion, and Ashkenazy is good but not that good. I did some hefty balancing acts between Lenny, Ash and Davis, and found Davis with the BSO to be the most brilliantly executed with appropriate and not over measured expression. To explain this better I suppose I could summarize it as I've found both Lenny and Davis to have it all, every acoustic ounce brilliant unto my ears, but Lenny has a bit too much of it. Just a wee bit. And Davis 'shapes' the music to more dazzling and less oppressive effect. HOWEVER, I still have not tried the latest Davis LSO set...I wonder if it will be even better. :-\
:-X
I will now go and take an asprin.
This one, etc..
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M7%2B98uNFL._SL500_.jpg)
I've just been lsitening to a recording of the original version of the Fifth Symphony and was amazed by it. I was expecting a sort of less-polished Fifth with the first movement spilt in to two. In fact that is what it is but 'less-polished' means a completely different sound-world. In place of the very crystalline sound of the final version of the fifth, the early version is foggy, with pervasive and quite unsettling dissonances. It's not like the fourth, which is dark and where the tritone is tearing the music apart (particularly in the finale), but it's a question of dissonances in the texture of the music which are persistant, and never resolved. In the final version these are cleaned away. Also in the first version the finale is much longer and almost Brucknerian, the famous Thor's hammer theme swings away, but, as it were, though this fog.
It occurs to me that in the earlier version of the fifth Sibelius is exploring sounds that he doesn't touch again until his very last music, the music for the Tempest.
Must listen to both versions some more.
Anyone else have a view of this version of the fifth?
Quote from: Scots John on February 21, 2013, 07:07:18 AM
With so many Sibelius cycles out there, past and present, it is darn difficult to pin down a personal favourite.
One of my favorite cycles now is Sanderling with the Berlin Symphony Orchestra (they were in East Berlin at the time). This orchestra plays beautifully, the acoustic is intimate, the recording very present and immediate.
Quote from: Scots John on February 21, 2013, 07:07:18 AM
With so many Sibelius cycles out there, past and present, it is darn difficult to pin down a personal favourite.
Johnnie, I'd modify this only slightly to say, with so many good Sibelius cycles out there, past and present, it is darn difficult to pin down a personal favourite.
[I've edited this post like six times over several hours. I cannot state the question the way I'd like to, and I also have no idea why it's vexing me so. A dull mystery. I'll just leave it as it finally is.]JFL from the 'New Purchases' thread, re: the Barbirolli-EMI collection:
Quote from: jlaurson on March 31, 2013, 01:30:30 PM
However, if you want help in restraint: Barbirolli, for all its charms, is decidedly NON-essential.
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Recommended, yes... but only in a weird "you already have three, four other cycles" kind of way. Be strong!
Or: support the classical economy! Indulge!
And yet: you shortlist the Barbirolli as an "ionarts' choice", among only six out of thirty-six listed cycles.
Whence all this qualification? Why doesn't it appear at your blog?
I guess I wonder what the difference is between an "essential" recording and an "ionarts' choice"; I'm guessing the issue is just that Barbirolli puts so much of himself on top of the score that the resulting music isn't "just Sibelius" anymore, whatever the interest for the listener and Sibelius lover?
Is it the essence of work that you mean by "essential", relatively uncolored by personalization, as you say here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg393382/topicseen.html#msg393382), so that there is not a confusion of "Essential Barbirolli" (or Bernstein, or whoever) with "Essential [Composer]"? I find it strange that you'd call Barbirolli NON-essential, then link to a post where he is singled out as a choice, without comment. Your comments are qualified and guarded, covered, as when you say: (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg340764/topicseen.html#msg340764)
QuoteI would recommend it for its great (as in: extraordinary, but also as in: very fine) personality. Not necessarily to set and Sibeliean standard.
At a good price, it's one of the 'essential supplemantary' Sibelius cycles.
But when you shortlist the cycle from a total list of 36, I wonder if it's special
at any price? Is there concern about a critical consensus that casts a cold eye at Barbirolli's Sibelius?
I personally like Barbirolli's Sibelius but have a bit of problem with the audio quality. I thought some of the brass parts, especially in the performance of Symphony No. 2, were incredibly harsh on my ears, but I plan to revisit this set as I see you've purchased it. I still think highly of the performances overall.
John-MI, I believe you about the sound quality esp. re: edgy brass; a little of that is evident even from my streaming and sampling (though it is still hard for me to know until I am spinning a disc on my real speakers). Also, my memory of your harsh assessment of this set at Amazon was false; you were measured but did not mince words regarding your choices for stronger cycles, overall and in particular. I think I might very well join you in this opinion; but a big motivation for me getting this was the 'controversy' around it. I guess it's same thing that makes me reach for my credit card when I think about the Sinopoli Mahler recordings, after hearing some (considerately, empathetically, economically) qualified praise for it from Sarge and Jens etc
after hearing so much shit talked about it [the Sinopoli] prior to my coming to GMG. I'm not a fan of conductors' egos on parade, but the prospect of this wonderful music being suddenly revealed as an alien landscape----
again, even stranger----is something I can't resist. Also, when critics get mean, I tend to take notice, and perhaps not the way the critic would prefer; to wit, Roger Dettmer (I am assuming, as he signs himself 'R.D.') from an online review:
QuoteHowever, just 15 months later, he looked ravaged physically and sounded near death expressively at the inauguration of Houston's Jones Hall. His music-making had slowed-down alarmingly (a violist on my left whispered during Elgar's "Nimrod" Variation that the cellists' arms were going to fall off if Sir John didn't move on soon). Backstage he needed a tilt board and a sizeable tumbler of scotch to seem even marginally alive—crotchety, but still among the breathing.
[....]
Enervation prevails; tempi, with a single exception, are stretched to the breaking point. Paradoxically, though, Barbirolli could still make the finale of Symphony No. 3 sound authentically conclusive, the only conductor I've ever heard do so. Even Robert Kajanus (see the last paragraph) seemed simply to stop, leaving the listener hungry for a few more bars. But Lord, how long it took the ill and aged Barbirolli to get there! His first movement lasts an interminable 12 minutes, about three longer than average, and the second ambles and dawdles aimlessly.
This is a sorry pattern almost everywhere else, the lone exception being the Vivacissimo third movement of Symphony No. 2, which JB recorded notably in 1962 (but not for EMI). Here it is too fast, with the Hallé strings scrambling to prevent anarchy.[...]
[after admitting he'd grown tired of audiophile problems with the recorded sound and basically stopped paying full attention to the recording] Of course I wasn't paying strict attention; but this, believe me, is music in my bones as well as my ears. [....]
Better brisk, though, than "glorious John's" terminal foot-dragging in a seriously unkind reissue.
from here (http://www.classicalcdreview.com/sibbarbirolli.htm).
But the Anton Ego revenge-tone of the review (it brings to mind a comment by our Cato about soulless editors) doesn't mean he is wrong about all the details, or even any of them; maybe just "all" of them. I think there's lots of evidence that you are right about the sound of the recording, John; so I am already wondering if this will be better compressed, as mp3-320s, on small computer speakers?
FwhateverIW, most of my time has been spent with Vanskaa/Lahti, Berglund/Helsinki, and Ashkenazy/Phil, the ones I own so far; I've heard another ~5 cycles by borrowing. I am most keen, I think, on getting and living with the Rozhdestvensky and Segerstam/Helsinki (though I am waiting to run across a cheaper price of the, esp. the Rozh which oddly I could not find at all on the Presto site, with their Melodiya sale in effect, alas), the Berglund/Bournemouth, and probably the Maazel/Vienna (which I know you are not too crazy about, John). That doesn't even begin to touch the non-cycle, single-work issues I want. Reading through the thread discussion is super helpful, everyone's contributions; but it does not make decisions 'easier'.
My own modest Sibelius plans are already starting to feel like unhappy compulsion to me. But we collect to hear new things, even in 'familiar' territory that's 'in our bones', right? If our bones aren't made strange to us, why on earth would we accumulate so many recordings of the same music?
Wait, John Barbirolli inaugurated Houston's Jones Hall? I'll have to very slightly recalibrate my opinion of that modernist acoustical death-trap.
I wrote a rather negative review of Barbirolli's Sibelius on Amazon, but I think, in hindsight, I was rather abrasive in some of my views of his cycle. I think he has the full measure of this music. I prefer him vastly to Colin Davis. I never have cared much for Davis' Sibelius, but his earlier BSO cycle is the best of the three he made IMHO. Anyway, Barbirolli's interpretations are deeply felt and passionate. You can hear it in the performances no question about it. It's been quite some time since I've made my way through his cycle. I'm with you on the Vanska, Berglund, and Ashkenazy. Those are probably my favorite cycles with Segerstam's on Ondine trailing not too far behind. I own 19 Sibelius cycle total. Some I have forgot, others have been burnt into my memory. The whole point of having different performances of the same works is to get fresher perspectives on the music. It can be something positive or negative. Some performances may not do a damn thing for you, but even from hearing these performances, you learn something. In the end, you learn about your own tastes and what you're looking for in the music.
All of this said, I'm still very much a classical novice in the grand scheme of things. I don't know much, but I'm still learning everyday.
@John-MI: you know, I remembered your Sibelius/Barbirolli review being very negative, but when I read it before posting above, it did not actually seem intemperate at all. In fact I am already eyeing your preferred alternatives, namely the Segerstam, pace Elgarian's comment here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg547602/topicseen.html#msg547602):
Quote3. Barbirolli/Halle Again, generally OK but somehow not so sparkling as I'd hoped it would be.
[....]
5. Segerstam/Helsinki POW! I thought THIS was IT! Blew me away. Vast, sweeping, and huge, built upon caves of ice!
which gives me this kind of Black Metal feeling. I want to hear
that Sibelius!
I paraphrase:
Quote from: Octave on March 31, 2013, 07:49:00 PM
You seem to hedge and obfuscate and possibly contradict yourself in claiming that Barbirolli's Sibelius Cycle is at once "Not essential" and yet a personal favorite. ("Ionarts' Choice").
What's the deal?
Well, you answered it pretty well yourself: This is not how I'd recommend anyone begin their Sibelius journey... it's not the kind of template-Sibelius that I think will as likely encourage further exploration in different intepretative directions as others.
Or yet more simply: If you dislike this cycle, it may not be Sibelius fault. But if you *do* like Sibelius, and have no qualms with personality-driven interpretations, then this is so unique (not unlike the Rozhdestvensky cycle, actually) that you'll want to listen to it...
What pushes it over the edge to "personal favorite" is that I happen to rather like B's way with Sibelius. I just acknowledge that this is not necessarily a universal appreciation.
In other words: The discrepancy between "Non-Essential" and "Favorite" reflects the extent to which I am aware of my own subjectivity.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 01, 2013, 01:43:10 PM
I paraphrase:
Well, you answered it pretty well yourself: This is not how I'd recommend anyone begin their Sibelius journey... it's not the kind of template-Sibelius that I think will as likely encourage further exploration in different intepretative directions as others.
Or yet more simply: If you dislike this cycle, it may not be Sibelius fault. But if you *do* like Sibelius, and have no qualms with personality-driven interpretations, then this is so unique (not unlike the Rozhdestvensky cycle, actually) that you'll want to listen to it...
What pushes it over the edge to "personal favorite" is that I happen to rather like B's way with Sibelius. I just acknowledge that this is not necessarily a universal appreciation.
In other words: The discrepancy between "Non-Essential" and "Favorite" reflects the extent to which I am aware of my own subjectivity.
Barbirolli does have his followers, however. Not apologists, but followers. Enough so that he's earned more than just a cult following for his Sibelius. At least that's how I view it after over two decades of reading the classical biz literature.
I'm a believer. Yes he's slow but I've never experienced Sibelius with such internal access to the complexities of each score. That in itself is worth the price of admission...for me.
I have that Barbirolli set and haven't listened to any of it for year and years. I think it may be time to revisit it.
I think Sibelius's symphonic works are remarkable in the variety of interpretations they admit. Recently, I have been listening to the Berglund set, the first EMI set with the Bournmouth Symphony Orchestra. I must say, it was something of a revelation, even after listening to a variety of other sets over the years. Berglund does a superb job of bringing out the structure of the late symphonies, and I think the key to his success is making the orchestral texture sufficiently transparent that you can hear everything that is going on, the undercurrents of the music, so to speak. The main weakness of the set, to my ears, is the somewhat shrill audio engineering, particularly when the recording venue is Abbey Road.
Quote from: Octave on March 31, 2013, 08:32:20 PMAlso, when critics get mean, I tend to take notice, and perhaps not the way the critic would prefer; to wit, Roger Dettmer (I am assuming, as he signs himself 'R.D.') from an online review...
While his description of Barbirolli's Third is accurate, his conclusion isn't. I think Sir John's Third is "glorious" (pun intended) and a must-have (although not a first choice) for a Sibelius collection because it's such an extreme interpretation. It shows how far the music can be pushed. The rest of his Sibelius can be on the broad side too (especially the slow movements) but nothing out of the ordinary. Slowness in Sibelius is not unusual today. Here are the timings for the Sixths in my collection. You see his tempos are in good company (Segerstam, Sanderling, Berglund, Blomstedt).
Maazel/Vienna 8:24 4:03 3:02 8:42 (24:11)
Davis/Boston 7:51 4:30 3:45 8:21 (24:27)
Davis/LSO (Live) 8:27 4:50 3:41 8:49 (25:47)
Davis/LSO (RCA) 8:36 4:40 3:36 9:03 (25:55)
Bernstein/New York 8:03 5:32 3:54 8:57 (26:26)
Vänskä/Lahti 8:28 6:29 3:23 8:19 (26:39)
Karajan/Berlin (EMI) 8:32 6:05 3:20 9:19 (27:16)
Järvi/Gothenburg 8:05 6:02 3:44 9:15 (27:17)
Maazel/Pittsburgh 9:20 5:22 3:28 9:11 (27:21)
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow 9:51 4:46 3:51 9:24 (27:52)
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia 9:23 5:42 3:54 9:17 (28:16)
Berglund/COE 7:54 6:09 4:10 10:04 (28:17)
Karajan/Berlin (DG) 9:12 6:18 3:26 9:40 (28:36)
Saraste/Finnish RSO (Finlandia) 8:57 6:10 3:41 9:55 (28:43)
Berglund/Helsinki 8:14 5:31 3:55 11:11 (28:51)
Inkinen/New Zealand 8:42 6:19 3:46 10:20 (29:07)
Sanderling/Berlin RSO 9:02 7:02 3:25 9:50 (29:19)
Berglund/LPO 8:47 6:19 3:52 10:46 (29:44)
Blomstedt/San Francisco 9:24 6:28 3:33 10:23 (29:48)
Barbirolli/Hallé 9:22 6:55 3:43 9:52 (29:52)
Segerstam/Helsinki 9:27 6:08 3:57 10:39 (30:11)
Sarkari/Iceland 9:10 6:59 3:40 10:33 (30:22)
Berglund/Bournemouth 9:33 6:23 4:04 11:31 (31:31)
Quote from: Octave on March 31, 2013, 08:32:20 PM
FwhateverIW, most of my time has been spent with Vanskaa/Lahti, Berglund/Helsinki, and Ashkenazy/Phil, the ones I own so far; I've heard another ~5 cycles by borrowing. I am most keen, I think, on getting and living with the Rozhdestvensky and Segerstam/Helsinki (though I am waiting to run across a cheaper price of the, esp. the Rozh which oddly I could not find at all on the Presto site, with their Melodiya sale in effect, alas), the Berglund/Bournemouth, and probably the Maazel/Vienna (which I know you are not too crazy about, John). That doesn't even begin to touch the non-cycle, single-work issues I want. Reading through the thread discussion is super helpful, everyone's contributions; but it does not make decisions 'easier'.My own modest Sibelius plans are already starting to feel like unhappy compulsion to me.
If you're going to be compulsive about any composer, Sibelius is a good choice, maybe even the best. We welcome you to the asylum ;) Like MI, I have 19 sets of symphonies (not sure how many Jens actually owns). My favorites: Maazel/Vienna, Maazel/Pittsburgh (could be a different conductor, so different are these performances from the earlier Vienna), Segerstam/Helsinki, Bernstein/New York (plus his Vienna Second), Berglund/Bournemouth, Davis/Boston, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Barbirolli/Hallé.
Sarge
Thanks for the info, Sarge. I'm trying to expand my Sibelius symphony sets (currently sitting at one with Blomstedt/SFS), and all the talk of Barbirolli has me intrigued. Currently interested in Berglund/Bournemouth, Segerstam/Helsinki and Ashkenazy/Phil. Although starting to pull away from Ashkenazy, impressed with his 1st, 3rd and 6th, but not so much with the rest, or at least my first impressions weren't very strong.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 05:25:16 AM
Thanks for the info, Sarge. I'm trying to expand my Sibelius symphony sets (currently sitting at one with Blomstedt/SFS) . . . .
Although, if you only had one (I do not) that's a strong claimant IMO : )
Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2013, 05:33:22 AM
Although, if you only had one (I do not) that's a strong claimant IMO : )
Agreed, it has been my only one for almost two decades now so I guess that says something about my appreciation for it. :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 05:25:16 AM
Thanks for the info, Sarge. I'm trying to expand my Sibelius symphony sets (currently sitting at one with Blomstedt/SFS), and all the talk of Barbirolli has me intrigued. Currently interested in Berglund/Bournemouth, Segerstam/Helsinki and Ashkenazy/Phil. Although starting to pull away from Ashkenazy, impressed with his 1st, 3rd and 6th, but not so much with the rest, or at least my first impressions weren't very strong.
My top three would be Segerstam II (Ondine), Berglund/Bournemouth and Maazel/Vienna....so I have no trouble encouraging you to spend your hard-earned bucks :D Berglund is half the price of Segerstam (at Amazon): that would be painless a purchase. But Segerstam is jaw-droppingly good. Worth the price. A pity, though, that their Kullervos aren't included.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2013, 05:08:26 AM...Like MI, I have 19 sets of symphonies (not sure how many Jens actually owns). My favorites: Maazel/Vienna, Maazel/Pittsburgh (could be a different conductor, so different are these performances from the earlier Vienna), Segerstam/Helsinki, Bernstein/New York (plus his Vienna Second), Berglund/Bournemouth, Davis/Boston, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Barbirolli/Hallé.
Sarge
19, like you, though perhaps not the same one and not counting incomplete cycles. (All the Karajan on EMI and DG nearly make a cycle... I have several Berglund performances from the earlier cycles but neither I nor II in toto etc.)
In alphabetical order:
Ashkenazy (4)
BarbirolliBerglund III (2)
Bernstein I
Blomstedt
Collins
Davis I
Davis III
Maazel I (3)
Maazel II
Oramo
Rattle
Rozhdestvensky SanderlingSakari
Saraste
Segerstam I
Segerstam II (1)
VanskaAmazingly, there's not a single one I really don't like... even the ones I am least attracted to (Rattle, Maazel II, and the wrongheaded Davis I) offer plenty joy and wonder at the miracle that is Sibelius.
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 02, 2013, 06:21:58 AM
19, like you, though perhaps not the same one and not counting incomplete cycles. (All the Karajan on EMI and DG nearly make a cycle
I have the Kamu/Karajan DG box but don't count it as a cycle either. My sets:
DAVIS I/BOSTON
DAVIS II/LSO (RCA)
DAVIS III/LSO (Live)
JÄRVI/GOTHENBURG
BERNSTEIN/NY PHIL
VÄNSKÄ/LAHTI SO
SANDERLING/BERLIN SO
MAAZEL I/VIENNA PHIL
MAAZEL II/PITTSBURGH
BERGLUND I/BOURNEMOUTH
BERGLUND III/COE
ASHKENAZY/PHILHARMONIA
ROZHDESTVENSKY/MOSCOW RSO
SEGERSTAM II/HELSINKI PHIL
RATTLE/CBSO
BLOMSTEDT/SAN FRANCISCO
SAKARI/ICELAND SO
BARBIROLLI/HALLÉ
SARASTE/FINNISH RSO (Finlandia)
I'm missing your Segerstam I, Collins, Oramo.
Sarge
The 19 cycles of Sibelius I own:
Davis/LSO Live
Davis/LSO - RCA
Davis/BSO
Berglund/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
Vanska/Lahti SO
Jarvi/Gothenberg
Maazel/VPO
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Oramo/CBSO
Barbirolli/Halle
Rattle/CBSO, Philharmonia
Blomstedt/SFSO
Segerstam/Helsinki
Bernstein/NY Phil.
Inkinen/NZSO
Sanderling/Berlin SO
Gibson/RSNO
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
What a minute...I own 20!
Sakari/Iceland SO
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 02, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
The 19 cycles of Sibelius I own:
Inkinen/NZSO
I didn't realize Inkinen was complete now. I like his Seventh. I think I'll order the Fifth (can't have too many Fifths).
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
I didn't realize Inkinen was complete now. I like his Seventh. I think I'll order the Fifth (can't have too many Fifths).
Sarge
His Seventh was the best part of his cycle, by a long shot. Here's my MW review of his Fifth:
"The Fifth, as I said, is awkward. It feels like a teenage boy who is a full head taller than his classmates and not yet sure how to use his bulk. What do I mean? The first movement moves strangely, clumsily, across its landscape; some moments are fast when they should be slow (2:38, 3:50), or slow when they should be fast (12:48-13:13); heroic when they should be cowed (7:30-8:05), or tender when they should be heroic (the chord at 4:51, the strings after 10:10). Where are the timpani and brass at the big transition point? Why is the coda so unexciting? Actually, I can answer that: timid horns at 13:12, lack of presence for the timpani, and the fact that the build-up beginning around 12:00 is unusually dull. The slow movement, at 9:39, feels almost like a nocturne, still and solemn: Inkinen is actually slower than Celibidache (9:21) here, let alone Davis/LSO (8:08) or Vänskä (8:47). The nocturnal feel really works, though it forces the oboist into a solo (after 8:00) that sounds forced.
"In the finale, something quite shocking happens: while delivering the glorious "swan hymn", the French horns sound ugly. I didn't think it possible! But they have a nasty bite, a muted harshness, which boggles the mind. Intonation is suspect and the phrasing, with certain notes "pointed" and the graceful flow of the notes made clunky and fitful, is grating to the ears. Then the trumpets cut in too quickly at 6:30 and the final orchestral build-up fails to bring euphoria or a sense of entry into the heavens. Add to this the ponderous first movement, the poorly-timed final chords (too, too fast!), and slightly charmless recorded sound."
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Mar11/Sibelius_sy45_8572227.htm
Oof. A bad horn section is one of the direst flaws an orchestra can suffer from.Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
(can't have too many Fifths).
Overheard a fellow in a liquor store once . . . .
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
I didn't realize Inkinen was complete now. I like his Seventh. I think I'll order the Fifth (can't have too many Fifths).
Sarge
Yeah, it's been complete for quite some time now.
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2013, 08:57:15 AM
His Seventh was the best part of his cycle, by a long shot. Here's my MW review of his Fifth:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Mar11/Sibelius_sy45_8572227.htm
The Hurwitzer thinks more highly of it (rated it 9). You say that "Pietari Inkinen conducts the Symphony No. 5 with [...]laid-back, clarity-first prettiness"--a negative assessment while Hurwitz, seeing the glass half full, says "Pietari Inkinen's emphasis on lucidity gives the music a contrapuntal interest you might not have suspected that it had, and that compensates for the lack of sheer power."
With the Fifth you and I usually think alike so it'll probably be a CD I love to hate ;)
Sarge
Thanks for the clarification, Jens; and for all this recent conversation about favorites etc, everybody.
I'm certain I will have gotten a few more Sibelius cycles before summer's end, absolutely no doubt. I'd like to start exploring a lot of the non-symphonic music as well; for that, I've relied almost entirely upon the Bis ESSENTIAL box and extra material appended to the sets I've gotten (most generously the Berglund/Helsinki/Bournemouth EMI 8cd "blue box", about a disc of which ended up in that recent 4cd Bournemouth cycle reissue).
Out of the sets I've been listening to via Spotify, the one that continues to stick in my mind is Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SY300_.jpg)
I love the way that Segerstam concludes many of these works, especially the handling of the 4th's final minutes. It becomes so desolate, so tragic, more so than any other recording I've heard (so far). With just over a minute left, starting with the question and answering between the flute and oboe, Segerstam builds patience, with stretched pauses, allowing these darker moments to sink in longer.
Plus, the balancing seems just right. The ending if the 7th is perfect example, the increasing wave of sound leading up to the final "amen" chords, the trombones followed by the lower strings has never sounded so pure.
One factor I'm high on with the Berglund/Bournemouth set is the power it conveys. Perhaps it's the way it's recorded, but at times it sounds like a much larger orchestra, I've never thought of Sibelius as a very muscular composer, but these performances attempt to alter that view.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 03:59:22 PM
Out of the sets I've been listening to via Spotify, the one that continues to stick in my mind is Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SY300_.jpg)
If I could have only one I think I'd also choose this one.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 03:59:22 PM
Out of the sets I've been listening to via Spotify, the one that continues to stick in my mind is Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SY300_.jpg)
I've never thought of Sibelius as a very muscular composer, but these performances attempt to alter that view.
This is surprising! Not very muscular? I have an idea of what you mean, but no idea whatever made you think such a thing ??? I've
always thought of Sibelius as 'robust' and 'muscular' in his compositions. We are at opposite ends of the scale. Maybe there is some middle ground, or perhaps your new listening will indeed alter you into hearing the Sibelius 'muscular' side. Interesting...
It really doesn't matter whether Sibelius' music is muscular or not, this doesn't alter or hinder my enjoyment of his music. His music is what it is and doesn't need to be anything else, but I don't think Monkey Greg meant his comment in a derogatory way.
If you want some Sibelian muscle, just listen to the last movement of Symphony No. 2 or listen to Tapiola or Kullervo.
Quote from: Scots John on April 02, 2013, 04:22:26 PM
This is surprising! Not very muscular? I have an idea of what you mean, but no idea whatever made you think such a thing ??? I've always thought of Sibelius as 'robust' and 'muscular' in his compositions. We are at opposite ends of the scale. Maybe there is some middle ground, or perhaps your new listening will indeed alter you into hearing the Sibelius 'muscular' side. Interesting...
Hi, Scots John,
I'll agree that his compositional writing is very
robust, very full-bodied.
And John (M.I.) is right, me not seeing Sibelius as "muscular" was in no way derogatory, and it also doesn't mean that his
fortissimos are any less
fortissimo than other composers. Perhaps it's because the lighter and softer moments from Sibelius' symphonies have affected me more, like the second movement of his
3rd, or the ending of the
4th and
6th.
And that's what I am crediting Berglund/Bourenmouth with, for opening my ears to this brawniness, not just within his writing, but with its projections.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 04:43:03 PM
Hi, Scots John,
I'll agree that his compositional writing is very robust, very full-bodied.
And John (M.I.) is right, me not seeing Sibelius as "muscular" was in no way derogatory, and it also doesn't mean that his fortissimos are any less fortissimo than other composers. Perhaps it's because the lighter and softer moments from Sibelius' symphonies have affected me more, like the second movement of his 3rd, or the ending of the 4th and 6th.
And that's what I am crediting Berglund/Bourenmouth with, for opening my ears to this brawniness, not just within his writing, but with its projections.
***Flexes muscles***
I sure hope I didn't sound pushy or offensive in my last post. :( I'm just surprised that such a view exists! It is wonderful to hear things like this, it completely challenges me to reassess what I hear. Great stuff.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 04:43:03 PMAnd that's what I am crediting Berglund/Bourenmouth with, for opening my ears to this brawniness, not just within his writing, but with its projections.
Oddly, Berlund/Bournmouth struck me for its transparency of texture and clarity in elucidating form, which I suppose would be the opposite of "brawniness", to the extent to which I know what you mean by "brawniness." The only two symphonies of Sibelius that I might be tempted to characterize as "brawny" would be the Tchaikovskyesq first and second, and I found Berglund's performances of those unsatisfactory, for lack of a sufficiently hefty orchestral sound. Interesting that the same recordings could create such different impressions in different listeners.
Quote from: Scots John on April 02, 2013, 04:47:22 PM
***Flexes muscles***
I sure hope I didn't sound pushy or offensive in my last post. :( I'm just surprised that such a view exists! It is wonderful to hear things like this, it completely challenges me to reassess what I hear. Great stuff.
How dare you push me! >:D :P ;D
A great aspect of music is being able to hear different things, reading through this Sibelius thread has given me more appreciation to his music. I've had the Blomstedt set for many years now, still pleased with it, but Berglund, Segerstam, Ashkenazy and Bernstein all offer a unique insight that I may have been unaware of.
I did some across a Sibelius site that I think I saw you on. Some pretty good info to be found there also.
Quote from: Parsifal on April 02, 2013, 04:56:23 PM
Oddly, Berlund/Bournmouth struck me for its transparency of texture and clarity in elucidating form, which I suppose would be the opposite of "brawniness", to the extent to which I know what you mean by "brawniness." The only two symphonies of Sibelius that I might be tempted to characterize as "brawny" would be the Tchaikovskyesq first and second, and I found Berglund's performances of those unsatisfactory, for lack of a sufficiently hefty orchestral sound. Interesting that the same recordings could create such different impressions in different listeners.
I wasn't too impressed with Berglund's Bournemouth cycle. His Helsinki is still my favorite among those two cycles. Haven't heard his Chamber Orchestra of Europe cycle, but given I like a large orchestra for Sibelius, I doubt I would be thrilled with those performances.
Quote from: Parsifal on April 02, 2013, 04:56:23 PM
Oddly, Berlund/Bournmouth struck me for its transparency of texture and clarity in elucidating form, which I suppose would be the opposite of "brawniness", to the extent to which I know what you mean by "brawniness." The only two symphonies of Sibelius that I might be tempted to characterize as "brawny" would be the Tchaikovskyesq first and second, and I found Berglund's performances of those unsatisfactory, for lack of a sufficiently hefty orchestral sound. Interesting that the same recordings could create such different impressions in different listeners.
And as I mentioned before, it (Berglund) may be the way it was recorded, but the way it came through on my headphones was heftier than others I was listening to.
My new found interest in Sibelius' symphonies is definitely giving me new perspective, and perhaps the more I discover, the more I'll see Berglund the way you do, Parsifal. Thanks for the post. :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2013, 05:00:51 PM
And as I mentioned before, it (Berglund) may be the way it was recorded, but the way it came through on my headphones was heftier than others I was listening to.
My new found interest in Sibelius' symphonies is definitely giving me new perspective, and perhaps the more I discover, the more I'll see Berglund the way you do, Parsifal. Thanks for the post. :)
Well, there are some things in a musical performance or composition that can be objectively defined, and others that are quite subjective, and we've wandered into the latter area. I'm quite anxious to listen to Berlund's last Sibelius cycle, with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. His middle cycle, with Helsinki for EMI, did little for me, though the consensus seems to be that it is one of the more worthwhile cycles available.
It's funny that Segerstam gets singled out here for the excellence of his endings when - although I love the cycle very much and his First and Seventh are my all-time #1 choices (his Third is co-#1) - the thing I think about most with Segerstam is, why did he ruin the ending of the Fifth?!?!?! If it weren't for his needless rush through the last 60 seconds of #5, I'd be very very happy with Segerstam as my "desert island" cycle. As is, I can't choose him.
Good call, Brian. I don't recall liking Segerstam's 5th too much nor do I care much for his 6th. My favorite 5th is a toss-up between Vanska/Lahti and Bernstein/NY Phil. My favorite 6th is Vanska/Lahti. Since the 5th is so popular and seems to be ingrained into so many classical listeners' minds, this symphony is quite possibly the most critiqued of the seven. I need to spend more time with the 5th myself. I always seem to flock to the 4th, 6th, and 7th.
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2013, 07:52:42 PM
It's funny that Segerstam gets singled out here for the excellence of his endings when - although I love the cycle very much and his First and Seventh are my all-time #1 choices (his Third is co-#1) - the thing I think about most with Segerstam is, why did he ruin the ending of the Fifth?!?!?! If it weren't for his needless rush through the last 60 seconds of #5, I'd be very very happy with Segerstam as my "desert island" cycle. As is, I can't choose him.
I've heard the ending of the 5th taken in different tempos. The brief final build up leading to the separated 'button' chords is marked
un pochettino stretto in the score.
Quote from: Sadko on April 02, 2013, 04:06:18 PM
If I could have only one I think I'd also choose this one.
You guys!
Wish-listed . . . .
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 02:57:35 AM
I've heard the ending of the 5th taken in different tempos. The brief final build up leading to the separated 'button' chords is marked un pochettino stretto in the score.
Segerstam is more like
stretto muchissimo... but then, I prefer no speed-up at all, which I s'pose is inaccurate.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 02, 2013, 09:05:29 PM
Good call, Brian. I don't recall liking Segerstam's 5th too much nor do I care much for his 6th. My favorite 5th is a toss-up between Vanska/Lahti and Bernstein/NY Phil. My favorite 6th is Vanska/Lahti. Since the 5th is so popular and seems to be ingrained into so many classical listeners' minds, this symphony is quite possibly the most critiqued of the seven. I need to spend more time with the 5th myself. I always seem to flock to the 4th, 6th, and 7th.
For me it's not so much the popularity - I believe the 2nd roundly beats it - as the combination of (a) a huge emotional charge, and (b) being very difficult to bring off. The emotional charge is very strongly positive, so I at least partly judge a Sib 5 recording on the "high" it induces. Nobody gets high off the Fourth!
I agree with you, for what it's worth: Bernstein/NY Phil is my "dream" performance, with Vanska not far behind. Blomstedt is around there too, and weirdly enough Sakari delivers the goods, but I don't return to Davis/BSO, Segerstam, Berglunds, Oramo, Barbirolli, Gibson, Celibidache, or Inkinen, for a variety of reasons, mostly ridiculous nit-picks. Can't remember my impressions of Maazel/Pitts or Ashkenazy.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2013, 04:36:00 AM
. . . but then, I prefer no speed-up at all, which I s'pose is inaccurate.
Un poco stretto sounds moderating on its own; in un pochettino stretto, the poco is diminished by two degrees (poco - pochetto - pochettino), so the composer seems to be stressing a minimal effect.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2013, 04:36:00 AM
Segerstam is more like stretto muchissimo... but then, I prefer no speed-up at all, which I s'pose is inaccurate.For me it's not so much the popularity - I believe the 2nd roundly beats it - as the combination of (a) a huge emotional charge, and (b) being very difficult to bring off. The emotional charge is very strongly positive, so I at least partly judge a Sib 5 recording on the "high" it induces. Nobody gets high off the Fourth!
I agree with you, for what it's worth: Bernstein/NY Phil is my "dream" performance, with Vanska not far behind. Blomstedt is around there too, and weirdly enough Sakari delivers the goods, but I don't return to Davis/BSO, Segerstam, Berglunds, Oramo, Barbirolli, Gibson, Celibidache, or Inkinen, for a variety of reasons, mostly ridiculous nit-picks. Can't remember my impressions of Maazel/Pitts or Ashkenazy.
Blomstedt is solid from 1 - 7, I still love that set, even if his interpretations are bland at times compared to others, he never distracts the focus from the music, and it helps he has the amazing timbre of the SFS.
Ashkenazy is a bit cold for me, although I think it helps with his 3rd and 6th recordings, which are quite intense, mainly the speedy finale of the 6th.
And the 4th's dour is why gets me high. :D
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2013, 04:46:44 AM
Un poco stretto sounds moderating on its own; in un pochettino stretto, the poco is diminished by two degrees (poco - pochetto - pochettino), so the composer seems to be stressing a minimal effect.
That's because "un pochetto stretto" just sounds silly. ;)
Is "muchissimo" Itaenglian or Spanitalian?
Ashkenazy's contributions to the Christopher Nupen Sibelius biography, btw., are also outstanding.
Cried several times during those two films, I'm not ashamed to admit.
(And what a nice guy that C.Nupen is, btw..)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000M2EBWO.01.L.jpg)
C. Nupen
Two Films about Sibelius
Early Years
Maturity & Silence
w/V.Ashkenazy & Swedish RSO
C.Nupen Films (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2013, 05:26:23 AM
That's because "un pochetto stretto" just sounds silly. ;)
Oh, yeah? Try strettino ; )
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2013, 05:26:23 AM
Ashkenazy's contributions to the Christopher Nupen Sibelius biography, btw., are also outstanding.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000M2EBWO.01.L.jpg)
C. Nupen
Two Films about Sibelius
Early Years
Maturity & Silence
w/V.Ashkenazy & Swedish RSO
C.Nupen Films (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21)
For anyone interested, thes films were made at the time of Ashkenazys recording of his first Sibelius cycle with the Philharmonia, circa 1984ish, altough the featured Orchestra is the SRSO. I too highly recommend these to anyone finding out / exploring Sibelius. Great post. In fact, I'm inspired to watch again for the first time in about 3 years... ::)
They do look like tasty films!
Appreciation of Sir Colin Davis through a selection of recordings:
"To pick a dozen recordings from Sir Colin Davis' discography that do his life, work, and art justice is either terribly easy (because there are so many) or terribly difficult (because twelve are so few)..."
In Memoriam: Hearing Sir Colin Davis (1927 - 2013)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HMrfn8zUN6E/UMfnvXtw4UI/AAAAAAAAE4U/JnYQZa5hczQ/s1600/Colin_Davis_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/in-memoriam-hearing-sir-colin-davis.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/04/in-memoriam-hearing-sir-colin-davis.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2013, 05:26:23 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000M2EBWO.01.L.jpg)
C. Nupen
Two Films about Sibelius
Early Years
Maturity & Silence
w/V.Ashkenazy & Swedish RSO
C.Nupen Films (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000M2EBWO/goodmusicguide-21)
That's quite a good documentary. One of the film's biggest flaws is not the discussion of
Symphony No. 6, which, for me, is one of Sibelius' best.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 23, 2013, 07:49:58 AM
it would be longer certainly, maybe better... but it's not a flaw, as far as i'm concerned, since the films are so good to begin with. there could always be more in most cases...
totally agree about the sixth symphony, though:
Perhaps flaw wasn't the right word but I just thought the way the film skipped right over the 6th in favor of the 7th was odd. The film was great though and I plan on revisiting it again at some point since my inner Sibelian has come to the fore. I own more symphonic cycles by Sibelius than any other composer. I really hope Vanska completes his Minnesota cycle. I'm one of those people that are in favor of Vanska making another Sibelius cycle. Hurwitz didn't think he needed to but it's 'okay' for Colin Davis or Berglund to record three of them. ::) Sorry, but I prefer Vanska in Sibelius to Colin Davis.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2013, 08:00:58 AM
Perhaps flaw wasn't the right word but I just thought the way the film skipped right over the 6th in favor of the 7th was odd. The film was great though and I plan on revisiting it again at some point since my inner Sibelian has come to the fore. I own more symphonic cycles by Sibelius than any other composer. I really hope Vanska completes his Minnesota cycle. I'm one of those people that are in favor of Vanska making another Sibelius cycle. Hurwitz didn't think he needed to but it's 'okay' for Colin Davis or Berglund to record three of them. ::) Sorry, but I prefer Vanska in Sibelius to Colin Davis.
Actually, Hurwitz never said it was okay for Colin Davis to record multiple cycles - Davis/RCA is his least-favorite cycle ever.
I listened to the new Vanska First and Fifth yesterday; found the First interesting in a "connoisseur appreciating an unusual reading" kind of way, but the Fifth totally disposable.
Well, regardless of the naysayers, I'm onboard for Vanksa's Minnesota cycle. He's truly one our finest living Sibelians.
Quote from: Brian on April 23, 2013, 08:11:13 AM
I listened to the new Vanska First and Fifth yesterday; found the First interesting in a "connoisseur appreciating an unusual reading" kind of way, but the Fifth totally disposable.
You mean 1st & 4th, don't you? This issue probably falls into the "hear before purchasing" class for me; it's certainly not something I need, and without hearing it thoughtfully there's no way to tell whether it's something I want. Their 2nd & 5th were good -- the 2nd especially -- but I need more Sibelius recordings like I need a hysterectomy.
Remind me how many cycles you've got, Dave? You know I ask with all respect : )
Quote from: karlhenning on April 23, 2013, 09:00:37 AM
Remind me how many cycles you've got, Dave? You know I ask with all respect : )
Gosh, I'm not sure, Karl. 17, per my CD catalog, plus lots of single issues of my favorites (numbers 1 through 7 ;) ).
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2013, 08:54:58 AM
You mean 1st & 4th, don't you? This issue probably falls into the "hear before purchasing" class for me; it's certainly not something I need, and without hearing it thoughtfully there's no way to tell whether it's something I want. Their 2nd & 5th were good -- the 2nd especially -- but I need more Sibelius recordings like I need a hysterectomy.
Not at all, friend - I was on Naxos Music Library and jumped discs. 1 and 5 it was.
Quote from: Brian on April 23, 2013, 09:18:48 AM
Not at all, friend - I was on Naxos Music Library and jumped discs. 1 and 5 it was.
Ahh ... I see. Thought you were referring to the new disc coupling 1 & 4. Have you heard the new 4 yet? (Guess a visit to the Naxos site is on my agenda!)
Re. last years coupling of 2 & 5, I thought the Minnesota 2nd was among the best on record (offered a capsule review somewhere on this site, IIRC), but their 5th was just another very competent, well-played, fairly conventional performance like a dozen or more others.
Looks like a great historical release. I don't think that I have heard the Stokowski recording before:
[asin]B00B5UBEMW[/asin]
I recently had the opportunity to audition Vänskä's new 1st & 4th with Minnesota. Way different from his previous outing with Lahti! Whereas those recordings were restrained and relatively austere -- cool -- these are romantically interventionist, not just warm but hot -- much like the 2nd in V/M's previous Sibelius pairing. In both cases the vision presented is sufficiently strange that it may take a few hearings for me to come to grips with it.
The 1st is fast instead of mysterious and the 4th is blythe instead of bleak. It uses the dreaded glockenspiel instead of glocken, which is one of my biggest peeves with Sibelius performances. He wrote glocken in the score, he conducted the premiere performance with glocken, and I'm utterly baffled how anyone with any sensitivity to this music could possibly think that a tinkly little glockenspiel's character is appropriate. And the ending sounds almost blythe and inconsequential instead of tapering off into bleak, unresolved mystery.
Yet the orchestra sounds great and the recording seems up to BIS's usual high quality, and my respect for Vänskä's Sibelius credentials commands open-minded attentiveness ... and though both performances seem a bit weird at first, they are consistent with his "new" vision and not at all wayward or willful, and I suspect I might end up liking them very much.
My main question is, "what possessed Vanska to go to Minneapolis?" The Beethoven cycle he did there is a cure for insomnia. The latest news I've read is that the lockout or the orchestra continues, an entire season has been canceled, including recording sessions, and Vanska has announced he will resign unless it is resolved immediately.
Quote from: Parsifal on May 11, 2013, 12:01:18 PM
My main question is, "what possessed Vanska to go to Minneapolis?" The Beethoven cycle he did there is a cure for insomnia. The latest news I've read is that the lockout or the orchestra continues, an entire season has been canceled, including recording sessions, and Vanska has announced he will resign unless it is resolved immediately.
Recording sessions have been postponed and Vanska said he'll resign if they can't keep (or are uninvited from) the scheduled Carnegie Hall appearances and subsequent recording sessions.
Sad clusterf#@* that is taking down (I disagree, obviously, with your assessment of the Beethoven) an orchestra from having worked its way to the American Top 5 and may ensure its provincial status for the next 40 years (and who knows what happens to orchestras in minor markets after that!)
Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2013, 09:46:58 AM
Recording sessions have been postponed and Vanska said he'll resign if they can't keep (or are uninvited from) the scheduled Carnegie Hall appearances and subsequent recording sessions.
Sad clusterf#@* that is taking down (I disagree, obviously, with your assessment of the Beethoven) an orchestra from having worked its way to the American Top 5 and may ensure its provincial status for the next 40 years (and who knows what happens to orchestras in minor markets after that!)
His Beethoven is just as good as most other Beethoven cycles out there. But why record Beethoven
again unless there is a really compelling reason. (For some reason, my CD collection obsession does not seem to extend to Beethoven. Karajan '63, Imerseel, Barenboim, Schuricht. Katsaris, Why do I need another?)
Quote from: Parsifal on May 12, 2013, 10:01:53 AM
His Beethoven is just as good as most other Beethoven cycles out there. But why record Beethoven again unless there is a really compelling reason. (For some reason, my CD collection obsession does not seem to extend to Beethoven. Karajan '63, Imerseel, Barenboim, Schuricht. Katsaris, Why do I need another?)
That's not a question anyone can answer for you. If that's the way you feel, which is more than reasonable (most people would stop at 1 cycle; albeit not in GMG territory -- and I think they're a wonderful fouresome (fivesome) that covers a great breadth of interpretative styles), then you
don't need another... and other people's perceived needs wouldn't change that.
The more general answer is that every generation needs "it's" Beethoven, which is why we keep interpreting and keep performing and keep recording and keep listening. But of course anything of our generation will have to face the best of the past... and perhaps that "need" isn't a fix, definable thing, anyway.
I just happen to have come across Vanska (spearheaded by his Fourth) and had similar questions beforehand... and then had these questions all answered by a Fourth like I thought I had never quite heard before. Much like not long after it happened with Jaervi's Third.
Quote from: Parsifal on May 12, 2013, 10:01:53 AM
His Beethoven is just as good as most other Beethoven cycles out there. But why record Beethoven again unless there is a really compelling reason. (For some reason, my CD collection obsession does not seem to extend to Beethoven. Karajan '63, Imerseel, Barenboim, Schuricht. Katsaris, Why do I need another?)
I could probably be happy with Blomstedt's SFS Sibelius cycle alone. Along with Bernstein's NYPO one. And Berglund's COE cycle. Maybe together with his Bournemouth cycle or Segerstam's HPO one as well.
Oh ... wait: we're discussing Beethoven. Well, in that case, I wouldn't want to be without Brüggen's first cycle, or Abbado's last one, but those two would suffice to make the other dozen I've acquired superfluous. (Yet I like hearing them from time to time.) ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 12, 2013, 10:21:01 AM
I could probably be happy with Blomstedt's SFS Sibelius cycle alone. Along with Bernstein's NYPO one. And Berglund's COE cycle. Maybe together with his Bournemouth cycle or Segerstam's HPO one as well.
Oh ... wait: we're discussing Beethoven. Well, in that case, I wouldn't want to be without Brüggen's first cycle, or Abbado's last one, but those two would suffice to make the other dozen I've acquired superfluous. (Yet I like hearing them from time to time.) ;)
I wouldn't want to be without Brüggen's first cycle, but I am. I'm hoping that when he turns 80 next year they will release some portion of his vast out-of-print catalog. And, ooop, I forgot, I have Harnoncourt's Beethoven too.
Went on a Sibelius 6th binge in June. Listen to it 6 times.
That's 6-6-6! >:D :laugh:
Recording: Maazel/VPO
Go, Ray! Happy Canada Day! :)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2013, 07:17:09 AM
Go, Ray! Happy Canada Day! :)
A grim reminder that if not for our glorious revolution celebrated on the 4th of July, we in the US would still be suffering under grinding tyranny and oppression, such as our neighbors in Canada continue to suffer to this day.
:)
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
A grim reminder that if not for our glorious revolution celebrated on the 4th of July, we in the US would still be suffering under grinding tyranny and oppression, such as our neighbors in Canada continue to suffer to this day.
:)
I have on occasion visited Canada but I am not aware of grinding tyranny and oppression either from my personal experience or the news. Would you care to elaborate?
Quote from: Johnll on July 01, 2013, 02:21:17 PM
I have on occasion visited Canada but I am not aware of grinding tyranny and oppression either from my personal experience or the news. Would you care to elaborate?
Just look at the Canadian 20$ bill! Grinding tyranny and oppression
gleams right at you!
Quote from: Johnll on July 01, 2013, 02:21:17 PM
I have on occasion visited Canada but I am not aware of grinding tyranny and oppression either from my personal experience or the news. Would you care to elaborate?
This is what is sometimes called a "joke." Around July 4, we will be inundated with unceasing testimonials to the founding fathers and how they fought against insufferable tyrany. Well, our neighbors to the north did not rebel, and at this point they seem to enjoy more wealth and prosperity and have a government that better serves their needs and respects their rights. Perhaps we's have been better off it the Lobster-backs had successfully put down John Adams' little rebellion.
But, then again, I'm getting off topic.
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 01, 2013, 07:02:28 AM
Went on a Sibelius 6th binge in June. Listen to it 6 times.
That's 6-6-6! >:D :laugh:
Recording: Maazel/VPO
You could do far worse, but I prefer Maazel/Pittsburgh.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2013, 02:55:45 PM
This is what is sometimes called a "joke." Around July 4, we will be inundated with unceasing testimonials to the founding fathers and how they fought against insufferable tyrany. Well, our neighbors to the north did not rebel, and at this point they seem to enjoy more wealth and prosperity and have a government that better serves their needs and respects their rights. Perhaps we's have been better off it the Lobster-backs had successfully put down John Adams' little rebellion.
But, then again, I'm getting off topic.
You could do far worse, but I prefer Maazel/Pittsburgh.
I get the joke now. The Canadians, I think, deposed the King and House of Lords a some decades ago but they may or not be better for it.
Once Europe collapses, the US and Canada will be third-world countries. Nobody gives a damn about either one of these countries now. Sorry my fellow Americans and my Canadian neighbors, but it's true. F****** European Union. Yeah, what a good idea that was....NOT!
In another scenario: it also doesn't help that the Chinese are buying up the US real estate market and once they've wiped us out from the inside out, they'll move onto Canada, Mexico, and South America.
I am off to visit friends in Finland at the end of this month and hope to visit the home of Sibelius - I will report back.
I don't think I've ever done a back-to-back comparison of Maazel's Vienna & Pittsburgh takes of the marvelous Op.104.
I'm in!
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2013, 04:44:03 AM
I am off to visit friends in Finland at the end of this month and hope to visit the home of Sibelius - I will report back.
Nice! I should visit Ainola some day, too. Are you going to stay near Järvenpää the whole time, or are you planning to also visit Madetoja's home town? ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 02, 2013, 04:57:14 AM
I don't think I've ever done a back-to-back comparison of Maazel's Vienna & Pittsburgh takes of the marvelous Op.104.
I'm in!
I have not heard Maazel's Pittsburgh Sibelius. Many people seem to enjoy it as much, or more than the Maazel/VPO.
Quote from: jlaurson on April 03, 2013, 05:26:23 AMAshkenazy's contributions to the Christopher Nupen Sibelius biography, btw., are also outstanding.
Cried several times during those two films, I'm not ashamed to admit.
Hmm I've got those DVDs, need to watch again.
Just realized, the german language documentary "Sibelius - Musikgigant aus dem Norden" finally is available online :) :) :) I loved it but forgot to record it... Now it's on YT..:
It has a lot of information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumnUw0ydws
Now, time for some fine music. The best of the bestest music of the bestestest interpreters. Tonight: Wood Nymph with Vänskä and Tapiola with Blomstedt.
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/32926695/SIBELIUS+The+WoodNymph.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaVkvXmZJ6jY6h8DRG7HFazZAVRGP4FZqUovGDh7MPBXRLyDAc)
Bought Vänskä/Minnessota Sym 1, 4 from 2013 (http://www.eclassical.com/vanska-osmo-1/sibelius-symphonies-nos-1-4.html), but only listened to the 4th yet. Well it seems like I will stay with Segerstam.
Quote from: North Star on July 02, 2013, 04:58:50 AM
Nice! I should visit Ainola some day, too. Are you going to stay near Järvenpää the whole time, or are you planning to also visit Madetoja's home town? ;)
I have friends in Espoo who are kindly arranging the Sibelius pilgrimage for me. I would love to visit Madetoja's home town (have been listening to his great 2nd Symphony). Where is it? I have never been to Finland before and have always wanted to visit.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 02, 2013, 12:48:32 PM
I have friends in Espoo who are kindly arranging the Sibelius pilgrimage for me. I would love to visit Madetoja's home town (have been listening to his great 2nd Symphony). Where is it? I have never been to Finland before and have always wanted to visit.
Here in Oulu. :)
He went to school here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulun_Lyseon_Lukio)
And here's a picture of the Madetoja Concert Hall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulu_Symphony_Orchestra
I can't say there is anything worth seeing here, especially since Espoo is quite far - it's almost 10 hours' drive from there. Plenty to see in the vicinity of Espoo and Helsinki.
Quote from: North Star on July 02, 2013, 01:03:50 PM
Here in Oulu. :)
He went to school here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulun_Lyseon_Lukio)
And here's a picture of the Madetoja Concert Hall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oulu_Symphony_Orchestra
I can't say there is anything worth seeing here, especially since Espoo is quite far - it's almost 10 hours' drive from there. Plenty to see in the vicinity of Espoo and Helsinki.
Many thanks. I doubt whether I'll get to Oulo, although I like the architecture of both your school and the Concert Hall. Maybe I'll get to see a building by Alvar Aalto when I'm in Finland.
Thanks again.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2013, 12:21:48 AM
Many thanks. I doubt whether I'll get to Oulo, although I like the architecture of both your school and the Concert Hall. Maybe I'll get to see a building by Alvar Aalto when I'm in Finland.
Thanks again.
Well
I didn't go to that school. :)
Plenty of architecture to be seen in Helsinki:
Finlandia Hall by Aalto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandia_Hall
Engel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ludvig_Engel) had a large role in rebuilding Helsinki in the first half of the 19th century
There's also Eliel Saarinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliel_Saarinen), whose son Eero had a major international career
And Lars Sonck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Sonck), who designed Ainola.
Two Serious Melodies for Cello.
Stick a fork in me, I am done.
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on July 02, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
Just realized, the german language documentary "Sibelius - Musikgigant aus dem Norden" finally is available online :) :) :) I loved it but forgot to record it... Now it's on YT..:
It has a lot of information.
But, but... it is in German... >:(
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on July 02, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
Just realized, the german language documentary "Sibelius - Musikgigant aus dem Norden" finally is available online :) :) :) I loved it but forgot to record it... Now it's on YT..:
It has a lot of information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumnUw0ydws
Hmmm... a
German documentary singing Sibelius' praises? That sounds almost oxymoronic. Must check out.
Totally bummed right now.
Was making a puzzle with my son in the living room, decided we needed some music, turned on DrectTV's satellite radio station "Symphonic" that just started the second movement to Sibelius' 3rd. The second movement was at a very relaxed tempo, very smooth, slower than I'm used to, but with beautiful sound. The final third movement started at a moderate tempo but picked up steam as it reached its final minutes, right about the time the low brass takes the melody it had reached a level of intensity I haven't heard from any 3rd performance.
Then, realized that these stations don't give info on performers, only composer and piece :o NOOOOOOO!!
Hey, does that sound like a performance any of you have heard? :D
These are the folks who supply the recordings. (http://www.sonictap.com/) Check the listings or we can research what labels they license from?
It may be Naxos so I will give Inkinen a listen momentarily.
Quote from: Brian on July 31, 2013, 10:38:16 AM
These are the folks who supply the recordings. (http://www.sonictap.com/) Check the listings or we can research what labels they license from?
It may be Naxos so I will give Inkinen a listen momentarily.
there's a pragmatic hypothesis!! jolly good work
It was wonderful to visit Sibelius's house 'Ainola' in Jarvenpaa outside Helsinki - a most moving experience as the house is full of echoes of Sibelius and the graves of Sibelius and his wife are located in the garden. I especially liked the seven ashtrays located on a table, ready for his cigars and the excellent guide (a music student) told us that the family could tell what mood Sibelius was in according to which ashtray he used! I also saw his famous white jacket, walking stick and the bed in which he passed away. Most poignant of all was a painting of a weeping mother with a dead child, above the piano in Sibelius's living room. I wonder what influence the death of one of his daughters at two years old had on his music. When I return to the UK and have my films developed (I am very low-tech) I may post some photos if they come out well.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 12:57:47 PM
It was wonderful to visit Sibelius's house 'Ainola' in Jarvenpaa outside Helsinki - a most moving experience as the house is full of echoes of Sibelius and the graves of Sibelius and his wife are located in the garden. I especially liked the seven ashtrays located on a table, ready for his cigars and the excellent guide (a music student) told us that the family could tell what mood Sibelius was in according to which ashtray he used! I also saw his famous white jacket, walking stick and the bed in which he passed away. Most poignant of all was a painting of a weeping mother with a dead child, above the piano in Sibelius's living room. I wonder what influence the death of one of his daughters at two years old had on his music. When I return to the UK and have my films developed (I am very low-tech) I may post some photos if they come out well.
I trust you know this site? (I don't know if there are any signs of the death of Sibelius's child in 1900 affecting the music, though he did score the play
Kuolema (Death) shortly afterwards...)
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/ainola/ainola_sali.html
Quote from: North Star on August 09, 2013, 01:14:17 PM
I trust you know this site? (I don't know if there are any signs of the death of Sibelius's child in 1900 affecting the music, though he did score the play Kuolema (Death) shortly afterwards...)
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/ainola/ainola_sali.html
Great site - which I did not know. I guess that the area around Ainola is less remote now than when Sibelius lived there. A pity that the view of the nearby lake from Ainola is now obscured by trees.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 01:20:28 PM
Great site - which I did not know. I guess that the area around Ainola is less remote now than when Sibelius lived there. A pity that the view of the nearby lake from Ainola is now obscured by trees.
Oh, it was even more remote then, I believe! The Sibeliuses were quite isolated there, and, IIRC, that suited Sibelius's work - though he had to occasionally go to Helsinki, and apparently drank quite a bit on those trips. And I suspect that the lake view has been obscure from the house then, too. Finns tend to like that sort of thing ;) - you can always walk to the shore or row on the lake. :)
Quote from: North Star on August 09, 2013, 01:30:15 PM
Oh, it was even more remote then, I believe! The Sibeliuses were quite isolated there, and, IIRC, that suited Sibelius's work - though he had to occasionally go to Helsinki, and apparently drank quite a bit on those trips. And I suspect that the lake view has been obscure from the house then, too. Finns tend to like that sort of thing ;) - you can always walk to the shore or row on the lake. :)
Interesting point. I think that Aino was devoted but long suffering. According to the guide she hardly spoke to Sibelius for a year!
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Interesting point. I think that Aino was devoted but long suffering. According to the guide she hardly spoke to Sibelius for a year!
Did they tell when this was - perhaps before he burnt a bunch of the scores, and Aino couldn't bare to witness it - after doing that, Sibelius was much more easygoing.
Quote from: North Star on August 09, 2013, 01:49:36 PM
Did they tell when this was - perhaps before he burnt a bunch of the scores, and Aino couldn't bare to witness it - after doing that, Sibelius was much more easygoing.
Possibly due to his drinking.
In response to her asking Sibelius when he would be home (presumably from a drinking excursion), he replied:
'I'm a composer, not a fortune-teller'.
I don't blame her for not talking to him!
Must remember to try this one on my wife when she next asks me when I will be home.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 01:59:52 PM
Possibly due to his drinking.
In response to her asking Sibelius when he would be home (presumably from a drinking excursion), he replied:
'I'm a composer, not a fortune-teller'.
I don't blame her for not talking to him!
Must remember to try this one on my wife when she next asks me when I will be home.
Hm. I guess this was too obvious for me to think of. ::)
If you do try that, be sure to first check that she hasn't got a handbag or anything like that near :laugh:
Anyway... I should get the complete tone poem set from BIS, as there are some things like the
Wood Nymph that I don't have on disc, and have actually quite recently got to know :-[
Same goes for much of the theatre music.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Interesting point. I think that Aino was devoted but long suffering. According to the guide she hardly spoke to Sibelius for a year!
Not clear that she was devoted rather than simply dependent, as women typically were in that era. I adore the music of Sibelius but I don't see how that requires me to adore or even admire the man himself. He sounds like a mean drunk. Common enough.
Quote from: Scarpia on August 09, 2013, 02:18:12 PM
Not clear that she was devoted rather than simply dependent, as women typically were in that era. I adore the music of Sibelius but I don't see how that requires me to adore or even admire the man himself. He sounds like a mean drunk. Common enough.
Yes, you may well be right, although other accounts suggest a generally united family and don't suggest that Sibelius was that bad. I got the impression that in the early years he was, to some extent, dependent on Aino.
Quote from: North Star on August 09, 2013, 02:07:28 PM
Hm. I guess this was too obvious for me to think of. ::)
If you do try that, be sure to first check that she hasn't got a handbag or anything like that near :laugh:
Anyway... I should get the complete tone poem set from BIS, as there are some things like the Wood Nymph that I don't have on disc, and have actually quite recently got to know :-[
Same goes for much of the theatre music.
I won't be trying it on my wife. I would not survive the ordeal ???
I like The Wood Nymph and the original Karelia Music (Ondine and BIS) was a great discovery, which I strongly recommend.
Did Billy Crystal get this one correct? Listen to the interview for his Sibelius take:
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/07/219746325/billy-crystals-foolin-full-of-fun-and-feeling
Quote from: Bogey on September 08, 2013, 06:41:52 AM
Did Billy Crystal get this one correct? Listen to the interview for his Sibelius take:
http://www.npr.org/2013/09/07/219746325/billy-crystals-foolin-full-of-fun-and-feeling
Yes - he got that voice just perfect. We always used to joke about it my house too (we had WQXR).
Quote from: Bogey on September 08, 2013, 06:41:52 AM
Did Billy Crystal get this one correct? Listen to the interview for his Sibelius take:
Is your dog getting enough cheese? ;D
Sarge
Sibelius certainly seems to be popular! I'm afraid I didn't read through this entire thread, so I'm not sure if in fact more people are in agreement with me than I suspect, but my experience of Sibelius hasn't really been congruent with what I was led to expect from reading and a very casual acquaintance with his more "pops" pieces (Finlandia, Valse triste). Was just wondering if anyone had had a similar experience.
What I'm mostly familiar with is the symphonies, especially 2 through 6, so that's where my comments will focus. Nos. 1 and 7 I only got acquainted with later so they didn't make as much of an impression on me, I think. But No. 2 was the first one I heard and it is, I think, the only really "Sibelian" symphony in the sense I understood the term. It has the various stylistic hallmarks you also see in the work of later "Sibelian" composers like Atterberg and Rubbra, lush Wagnerian textures and harmonies and then these massive brass outbursts that come out of nowhere, and "elemental" bits like the opening of the slow movement (in fact quite a lot of the slow movement) that suggest natural features, the quiet contemplation of and so forth. So far, so expected.
Then he came to No. 3 which was and perhaps still is my favourite Sibelius symphony. People seem to talk about it as having a neoclassical lightness that sets it apart from the others, which sounds to me as though they never bothered to listen past the first two or three minutes. Certainly the first theme has a dance-like character that draws one into the work (although there is another of those brass outbursts, less explicable here, just a few dozen bars in). But the whole development section of this ostensibly "sonata form" movement is something else—just an endless stream of pianissimo semiquavers, through which fragments of the first theme occasionally surface. The music doesn't "develop", it just drifts. It's perhaps the first incidence of the unique bleakness that will come to dominate the 4th and 6th symphonies as well—a profoundly empty passage that manages to regain its footing. The remainder of the movement is more normal, but the concluding chorale has an unexpected austerity which retrospectively casts the rest of the movement in a more sombre light, I feel.
The slow movement starts out like light music, a folk-like waltz melody and traditional accompaniment. In a normal slow movement this melody would perhaps alternate with a couple of other melodies, end peacefully and be utterly forgettable. In Sibelius, this never happens. The melody just circles round and round, never developing, never changing. The few episodes never leave the home key and are over almost before they've begun, and in the end the whole thing just breaks down. It's some of the most profoundly unsettling music in the repertoire, and this is coming from someone who's a big fan of Schoenberg, Radulescu, Ferneyhough and Schnittke. >.> This unsettled mood continues in the third movement, which starts with a scherzo Sibelius described as distilled chaos—a very accurate description, I'm still not sure what's going on in that scherzo—that gradually metamorphoses into a triumphant finale. For me, the triumph isn't wholly convincing; like in the slow movement, the melody just goes round and round before coming to an abrupt, over-emphatic conclusion. It doesn't feel like a triumph, more like a mantra, a gradual closing off of one's mind from the highly disturbed textures of the previous part of the movement. The protagonist of the Third Symphony has "triumphed" only by withdrawing. Not the first enigmatic ending in Sibelius's œuvre, nor the last, I suppose.
The Fourth is a "dark" work. In fact it may be the grimmest, bleakest piece of music in which the umbilical cord to tonality is not severed—perhaps Mahler's Sixth is comparable, though I've never warmed to Mahler, but very little else in the earlier repertoire, and later one has to look ahead to Schnittke and Pettersson (whose music incorporates a significantly greater degree of modernism—there is no modernism in Sibelius) to find its equal. Yet it is not unreletingly dark; there are traces of the burnished orchestral warmth of the Second and Finlandia (particularly in the brass writing) and both of its adagios end with a glimmer of major-key hope. It is the allegros that actually make the more disturbing impression, both starting out sunny and untroubled and then rapidly degenerating. Much of my listening activity is determined by iTunes DJ and the "Shuffle Songs" feature on my iPod; the scherzo from No. 4 once came on whilst I was in a car on a lonely road at night and about halfway through (not consciously paying attention to the music) I suddenly became very aware that I was a small person in a fragile car, there was a lot of empty road in front and behind and it was very dark outside. I kept looking over my shoulder through the back window, trying to shake the inexplicable sense of foreboding that had come over me. It was all Sibelius—disappeared quickly once I switched to some Bach. Like the 2nd, 6th and first movement of the 3rd this symphony ends with a chorale—or fragments of one. It doesn't give a sense of closure; it raises more questions.
The Fifth is, I suppose, the "popular" one, the brightest, most triumphant et cetera. Yet though it starts out in a pastoral mood the overriding mood of the first five or ten minutes is the aimless drifting from the first movement of the 3rd (and some sections of the first movement of the 4th), long stretches of undifferentiated pianissimo for the strings that occasionally boil over into mini-climaxes before being quickened into the huge composed accelerando that raises the music to fever pitch by the end. The first movement is almost a symphony on its own. The second movement is essentially the slow movement of the Third, sped up slightly and in a major key. Yet the effect is entirely different—in spite of a few passages of overt menace, absent from the 3rd, the piece is lighter, more like an intermezzo. It is not a prism that turns order into chaos; it is an island of order between two very different chaotic forces. The finale is like a more carefully planned out version of the last movement of the 3rd, and its triumph is more believable—closer in spirit to the finale of the 2nd. Yet there is still that ending, breathless and fragmented; sometimes imitated, but never in a way that manages to capture its ambiguous quality.
If any piece can be called such the Sixth is probably Sibelius's masterpiece. It's also perhaps the emptiest piece of music I've ever heard. This is not meant as a negative criticism. I've heard it described as light and fluffy, Sibelius himself said something about the scent of fresh snow, but for me at least, it hits hard. There's very little development once again, most of the melodic material is completely diatonic and consists of scales or very basic figures that are repeated endlessly. A good deal of the first and second movements are filled with the "aimless pianissimo" trope of the Third Symphony, whose surface activity has usually been a catalyst for drama, but there is very little drama in this piece—certainly rage and passion along with calm and grief, but they are not a source of conflict; they merely exist, are allowed to spend themselves and dissipate. The first movement is very close in spirit to Vaughan Williams's almost exactly contemporary Pastoral Symphony, which served an overtly memorial purpose (commemorating the dead of the Great War), but without the warmth of that work. Then there is another disquieting "slow" movement (which actually feels faster than the first movement) with a very abrupt ending—in fact the only slow movement in Sibelius's symphonies that does not have an air of at least suppressed menace is that of the Fourth, oddly—and a lumbering scherzo that never quite gets off the ground despite its attempts to dance.
The last movement is in many ways the heart of the piece (for me at least) and is another fast movement that feels like a slow movement in disguise. There are chorales bookending the movement, lending it a religious sort of asceticism, and then a lengthy middle section that brings the passions that have been a constant undercurrent to the fore. I think the treatment of "rage and passion" in this movement—if that is what it is—is more true to life than in works where it leads to transcendence and transfiguration, or violent all-consuming fury, or dramatic tragedy. It appears; it dominates for a time; it hammers at the same few ideas repeatedly; then it is over. One is left exhausted, but unchanged. The return of the chorales brings about the epilogue, where the music briefly seems to have gained a kind of distance from all signs of humankind; then the chorale returns as a final heartrending cry and the strings bring the music back around to the pure diatonic Dorian mode where the whole symphony began. This is, for me, the coda to Sibelius's life's work. He wrote another coda in Tapiola and perhaps there would have been others had he written more, but by this point, I think he already knew the end was coming.
For quite some time I avoided the Seventh because the Sixth finished with such a sense of closure that I couldn't help thinking of it as Sibelius's last. I wasn't quite ready for an even emptier and more depressing sound-world, and could only imagine what the Eighth must have been like (I think my mental picture of it was something along the lines of the orchestra holding a D minor triad pp for 45 minutes :P), but as it turned out the Seventh is more like a new beginning, which makes the Eighth that much more intriguing. It shows signs of the weakening umbilical cord to tonality and while Sibelius contributed no further music, the Seventh starts a rejuvenated line through later Vaughan Williams, Holmboe, Simpson and others.
I don't know if these perspectives on Sibelius are really shared by anyone else—perhaps I just haven't listened to him enough—but hopefully they don't sound completely stupid. Anyway, I've gone on for a while and have no idea if anyone's still reading by this point, so without further ado, I bid you blargtiflargwargle.
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 08, 2013, 05:14:41 AM
Wow, I will have to explore. I wasn't aware that Sibelius had written so much solo piano music. Thumbs up! :)
Some choice YT videos to get you started :)
http://www.youtube.com/v/G6rBwqrMvgE http://www.youtube.com/v/U-cFu6RIgDw
http://www.youtube.com/v/nvwO-GMoBCw http://www.youtube.com/v/KMc78xutP6Y
Many thanks, North Star! :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 08, 2013, 05:46:56 AM
Many thanks, North Star! :)
You're very welcome!
A new male choir version of
Sibelius'
Ej med klagan (Not with complaint) has been found (Sep. 30th) (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ts.fi%2Fkulttuuri%2F540999%2FSuomalaistutkija%2Bloysi%2Buuden%2BSibeliuskuoroteoksen&act=url)
Quote from: amw on September 27, 2013, 01:10:48 AM
Anyway, I've gone on for a while and have no idea if anyone's still reading by this point, so without further ado, I bid you blargtiflargwargle.
I read the entire post. Do I get a Gold Star? Or at least a pat on the back? :D ;)
Seriously, a good read, and one I'm going to read again and maybe even comment on. But right now, with dinner looming, I have no time except to say about this:
Quote from: amw on September 27, 2013, 01:10:48 AM
Then he came to No. 3.... People seem to talk about it as having a neoclassical lightness that sets it apart from the others, which sounds to me as though they never bothered to listen past the first two or three minutes.
I've always considered the 6th to be the neoclassical Sibelius. Sir Colin rather confirms that (in my mind) by being both a great Mozartian and Haydnista and one of the few Sibelius conductors who I feel gets the symphony right (especially his Boston Sixth). More later.
Sarge
Yes, an excellent post, amw!
The performance of Symphony No 6 by Hans Rosbaud is the best I know. Terribly moving from the start, conveying much more feeling than any other recording I know (1952/ ICA Classics).
Winter Solstice Listen - two performances.
Of the seven symphonies, the 2nd most reminds me of a cold Finnish landscape (or Canadian one, for that matter) :)
Sibelius
Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 43
Maazel
Vienna Philharmonic
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Kamu
Berlin Philharmonic
[asin]B00DY9WYSA[/asin]
Greatly enjoying these historic recordings (1949-1957), played with greater urgency I think than the later, more expansive EMI set. I have never heard a greater performance of Symphony No, 1 with the harp more prominent than usual. Some of these recordings were made for Pye. I found the double CD set for £5.00 on Amazon UK:
[asin]B00004TQPX[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2013, 01:59:52 PM
In response to her asking Sibelius when he would be home (presumably from a drinking excursion), he replied:
'I'm a composer, not a fortune-teller'.
I don't blame her for not talking to him!
Must remember to try this one on my wife when she next asks me when I will be home.
As far as I know (as a Finn myself) that was not a real occurrence but just a joke invented maybe years after Sibelius's death. Biographies I have read paint Sibelius as someone very considerate to other people's feelings (although of course he was not a saint). At least those By Erik Tawastjerna.
Quote from: Alberich on April 07, 2014, 03:51:03 AM
As far as I know (as a Finn myself) that was not a real occurrence but just a joke invented maybe years after Sibelius's death. Biographies I have read paint Sibelius as someone very considerate to other people's feelings (although of course he was not a saint). At least those By Erik Tawastjerna.
Thank you - that is worth knowing and fits in more with what I have read about Sibelius.
On a separate note it is a pity that Sir John Barbirolli never, to my knowledge, recorded Tapiola - as I have been greatly enjoying his recordings of the symphonies, mentioned above.
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2014, 12:37:44 PM
I recently had a dream that every recording in this new set was perfect, and in the dream I listened to it with rapturous delight (although the music was my dream-brain's own invention, and clearly not Sibelius):
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/CHAN10809-11.jpg)
Trying out #1 to see if it was a premonition.
Storgards is too interesting a conductor to turn in bad performances, and so far (I've listened to #1 and am halfway through #3) his readings are very interesting. Powerful hard-stick timpani, and some nice interpretive touches in places which could make this a distinctive cycle. The biggest eccentricity in the First is an extremely slow final coda which almost falls to pieces (on purpose) - think of how Kreizberg or Petrenko conduct the ending of Shostakovich's Fifth. On the other hand, the Third takes off like a crisp clean neoclassical rocket.
The BBC Philharmonic, which is certainly not one of the UK's top five orchestras and might not even be in the top ten, has almost never sounded better. In the First, the strings lag a little behind the brass and percussion, commitment-wise, but the Third does not have that problem.
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2014, 01:53:29 PM
Storgards is too interesting a conductor to turn in bad performances, and so far (I've listened to #1 and am halfway through #3) his readings are very interesting. Powerful hard-stick timpani, and some nice interpretive touches in places which could make this a distinctive cycle. The biggest eccentricity in the First is an extremely slow final coda which almost falls to pieces (on purpose) - think of how Kreizberg or Petrenko conduct the ending of Shostakovich's Fifth. On the other hand, the Third takes off like a crisp clean neoclassical rocket.
The BBC Philharmonic, which is certainly not one of the UK's top five orchestras and might not even be in the top ten, has almost never sounded better. In the First, the strings lag a little behind the brass and percussion, commitment-wise, but the Third does not have that problem.
Do you think it's worth buying this set? I have nearly been going broke lately duplicating recordings that I already have. But but this one looks really good.
Help me, please.... :'( Two weekends ago I heard on our classical radio a performance of Sibelius's 6th. I had tuned-in mid-course, recognized it as Sibelius, of course, didn't know precisely what, but was bewitched, bothered and bewildered. For decades I have listened to every Sibelius symphony many hundreds of times over but hardly ever the sixth). Now I am as if transfixed, addicted. I cannot listen to anything else but. It contains, I believe, some of his happiest moments and also some of the gravest and most haunting and certainly passages that rate among his most transcendent. Music critics run the gamut from thinking it haunting and troubling to one of his lightest, most carefree works! The ending is certainly troubling, like a death that comes unseen and for which one is unprepared (inspired by the death of his brother, perhaps? Or a premonition of his long silence to come?). And yet, the whole seems so elusive, rather like a snack that you must keep on eating, precisely because it doesn't quite satisfy...
And . . . how may we help? ;)
For years, the Sixth has been my favorite of the seven. I love 'em all, but the Sixth is easily my favorite.
I agree, sixth is awesome, along with 2nd symphony it is my favorite as well! The last movement's stormy low string melody is pure badass. If I had to choose between 2nd and 6th I would probably pick the 6th. Funny, I remember that the first time I listened to it I didn't like it much, couldn't recall a single melody. After relistening it again much later I was overwhelmed by how much awesome melodies it had and how strong structure the work had. I guess I was deaf during my first listening.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
And . . . how may we help? ;)
For years, the Sixth has been my favorite of the seven. I love 'em all, but the Sixth is easily my favorite.
I love all of them, but the
Sixth has also become my favourite over the last year or so.
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on April 30, 2014, 10:21:06 AM
Now I am as if transfixed, addicted. I cannot listen to anything else but. It contains, I believe, some of his happiest moments and also some of the gravest and most haunting and certainly passages that rate among his most transcendent. Music critics run the gamut from thinking it haunting and troubling to one of his lightest, most carefree works! The ending is certainly troubling, like a death that comes unseen and for which one is unprepared (inspired by the death of his brother, perhaps? Or a premonition of his long silence to come?). And yet, the whole seems so elusive, rather like a snack that you must keep on eating, precisely because it doesn't quite satisfy...
What do you need our help for? It seems to me that you are having a great time! You describe this piece perfectly - but then, a few years ago I got in a big debate with someone, on this thread, because I described the symphony as a tragedy. Your last sentence is perfect.
Oh, did we argue, Brian? Because, well, I don't know that I see it as a tragedy.
But, mine is not the only possible perspective here . . . .
8)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
And . . . how may we help? ;)
To begin with, Karl, you've provided some comfort - thanks! - by noting it's your favorite of the seven. The sixth quite confounds and
compels me - I feel like I could comfortably describe what Sibelius is up to or wants to convey or depict in his other works (rightly or wrongly! :D - it's the comfort level that's key!). But I don't feel like I understand what he's up to in the 6th and yet the work strikes me as being important, perhaps the most personal of his work. All of this is terribly subjective, of course. I listened to it four times today (so far). Maybe a nice reassuring dose of Martinu or Poulenc will help.
Quote from: Brian on April 30, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
What do you need our help for? It seems to me that you are having a great time! You describe this piece perfectly - but then, a few years ago I got in a big debate with someone, on this thread, because I described the symphony as a tragedy. Your last sentence is perfect.
Thanks, Brian - I can't describe it as a great time - but it's an intriguing one. Some listeners seek this kind (or comparable ones) of experience in music, but I can say for me this time it's a source of suffering - perhaps it's the tragic element you discern. [Deleted rampant subjectivity]
Quote from: Brian on April 30, 2014, 11:23:07 AM
a few years ago I got in a big debate with someone, on this thread, because I described the symphony as a tragedy.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2014, 11:31:23 AM
Oh, did we argue, Brian? Because, well, I don't know that I see it as a tragedy.
No, Karl, it was I who debated with Brian. :) Can't find the whole thing, though.
Well, I am glad that it is not the case that I got into a Sibelian tussle with Brian, and it passed entirely from my awareness :)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2014, 03:38:03 AM
Well, I am glad that it is not the case that I got into a Sibelian tussle with Brian, and it passed entirely from my awareness :)
Found it. Actually, tussle is not the proper word. The whole thing was as gentle as a May breeze ;)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426745.html#msg426745 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426745.html#msg426745)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426750.html#msg426750 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426750.html#msg426750)
Thanks for the link, partly on its own merits, partly because it brought back into view this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426766.html#msg426766) 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2014, 04:38:43 AM
Thanks for the link, partly on its own merits, partly because it brought back into view this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426766.html#msg426766) 8)
...If
Shostakovich fades, so too can
Henning...
Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2014, 04:38:43 AM
Thanks for the link, partly on its own merits, partly because it brought back into view this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16746.msg426766.html#msg426766) 8)
Ah, yes. Well, I do miss a good tussle now and then. :D
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on April 30, 2014, 12:17:56 PM
To begin with, Karl, you've provided some comfort - thanks! - by noting it's your favorite of the seven. The sixth quite confounds and compels me - I feel like I could comfortably describe what Sibelius is up to or wants to convey or depict in his other works (rightly or wrongly! :D - it's the comfort level that's key!). But I don't feel like I understand what he's up to in the 6th and yet the work strikes me as being important, perhaps the most personal of his work. All of this is terribly subjective, of course. I listened to it four times today (so far). Maybe a nice reassuring dose of Martinu or Poulenc will help.
from: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html)
QuoteThe Sixth Symphony was the most appreciated item on the bill: It's a much less often performed work than Symphonies Two, Five, and Seven, but every bit as moving. Its deceptive four movement outline suggests something relatively orthodox where there is no symphonic orthodoxy at all. The work barely has beginnings and it has even fewer ends. Between movements, there is scarcely enough of a signal to audience to start their coughing-cascades. The work has an aim, but the target of it never seems to be revealed; its principal feature might be the strange, intriguing attractiveness in an inverse Marilyn Monroe way: Very beautiful, but not at all pretty. Vanska, a Sibelian semaphore of astounding exactitude, led the LSO in a performance of perfect clarity and of a seamless, organic fit. Or at least perfect compared to the dog's breakfast most continental European orchestras make of Sibelius' intertwining lines of thought. The brief third movement was juicy, the finale fleet and of irresistible wit and detail.
I was in the local score library today, looking at Sibelius' Fifth Symphony. Interestingly, the title page specified that this was a "symphony in one movement"! I suppose that means that the various sections are to be played without pause--not just between the Tempo molto moderato and the Allegro moderato, but no pauses at all. I've heard recordings where there is no break other than the written rests between the Andante mosso and the Allegro molto, but for acoustical reasons it's almost impossible to start the Andante immediately after the Piu presto ends; the Presto ends fff with the full orchestra, while the Andante begins pp with only woodwinds and horns. One couldn't even hear the first bar or so of the Andante if there were no break!
What kind of breaks do the various recordings make? Are there recordings where the break between Presto and Andante is minimal?
Quote from: jochanaan on May 16, 2014, 07:24:33 PM
What kind of breaks do the various recordings make? Are there recordings where the break between Presto and Andante is minimal?
I can't recall a recording that had little or no break between those two movements. I haven't checked all my Fifths but the ones I did check just now had at least a five second break (both Maazel's, Berglund/COE, Blomstedt, Sakari, Segerstam, Järvi). I think it would sound very odd played attacca.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2014, 03:41:41 AM
I can't recall a recording that had little or no break between those two movements. I haven't checked all my Fifths but the ones I did check just now had at least a five second break (both Maazel's, Berglund/COE, Blomstedt, Sakari, Segerstam, Järvi). I think it would sound very odd played attacca.
Sarge
I agree. It takes at least five seconds for the echoes to fade!
In which case, I should interpret the attacca mark not as playing through the echo, but picking up just ahead af the echoes' quite dying out. The music then has the feeling of moving on; you don't have an Audience, start your coughing! break.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2014, 04:06:31 AM
In which case, I should interpret the attacca mark not as playing through the echo, but picking up just ahead af the echoes' quite dying out. The music then has the feeling of moving on; you don't have an Audience, start your coughing! break.
True. And if it's a live setting, the conductor and orchestra can stand or sit still without "breaking" their poses for the short pause (not break).
Some will ask, "What if they have page turns?" Well, turning pages quickly and silently is a skill that orchestra players had better develop! :o I know from experience that one can turn a page silently without breaking a pose.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2014, 09:14:45 AM
Some will ask, "What if they have page turns?" Well, turning pages quickly and silently is a skill that orchestra players had better develop! :o
One of my "to-do's" for my choir next year, is to teach them this skill!
I have been listening to this set for a while. It has some pretty interesting historical recordings. Well worth investigating if one likes to wander in the Sibelius soundscape!
review at: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Sibelius_233314.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Sibelius_233314.htm)
[asin] B004VRO7ES[/asin]
Following a Sibelius trajectory..
Sibelius: The Wood Nymph Lahti SO/Vänskä
Sibelius: Lemminkäinen Suite Lahti SO/Vänskä
From
[asin] B000KC849W[/asin]
I really enjoy "The Wood-Nymph" and find it surprising that it is not more prevalent in the repertoire when it comes to Sibelius. I very much enjoy dipping into the BIS set as it provides such a different spectrum of Sibelius' compositions. The Sibelius discography seems so extremely focused on the symphonies and at times some of the more well-known tone poems. I know that BIS has released single issues of Sibelius covering all (?) of his compositions, but they are a tad expensive at this point. Could anybody here suggest larger compilations (like the BIS set above or the Membran set in the previous post) that provides access to additional versions of some of his more peripheral works?
I have to confess I have never heard Wood-nymph. Lemminkäinen suite on the other hand is along with Pohjola's daughter my favorite Sibelius tone poem (or tone poems).
Quote from: Alberich on May 28, 2014, 01:57:04 AM
I have to confess I have never heard Wood-nymph. Lemminkäinen suite on the other hand is along with Pohjola's daughter my favorite Sibelius tone poem (or tone poems).
Definitely a video
Sarge should watch, too 8)
https://www.youtube.com/v/M7tLqZXFMNo
Quote from: Moonfish on May 27, 2014, 12:09:33 PM
I have been listening to this set for a while. It has some pretty interesting historical recordings. Well worth investigating if one likes to wander in the Sibelius soundscape!
review at: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Sibelius_233314.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/June11/Sibelius_233314.htm)
[asin] B004VRO7ES[/asin]
I'm crying that the
Sixth Symphony is lacking!
Quote from: jlaurson on May 06, 2014, 05:56:53 AM
from: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html)
THANK YOU, Jlaurson, albeit belatedly. I feel much better now, even a bit cock-of-the-walky to realize my very own patented Sibelius Infundibulator was working correctly, even though sputtering with self-doubt.
Greatly enjoying this set:
[asin]B00000C3Q8[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on May 28, 2014, 09:53:26 AM
Greatly enjoying this set:
[asin]B00000C3Q8[/asin]
I have not heard much of Boult performing Sibelius. How do these recordings of the tone poems (mono I presume) compare with others that you own (or have listened to). Thanks for bringing Boult forward Vandermolen! :)
I wonder if a few of these tone poems (in vol 1 & 2) are the ones found on CD 10 in the Brilliant set above..?
Peter
Quote from: Moonfish on May 28, 2014, 10:27:37 AM
I am have not heard much of Boult performing Sibelius. How do these recordings of the tone poems (mono I presume) compare with others that you own (or have listened to). Thanks for bringing Boult forward Vandermolen! :)
I wonder if a few of these tone poems (in vol 1 & 2) are the ones found on CD 10 in the Brilliant set above..?
Peter
Prob the same in view of the 1950s recording dates. The CD above features a letter from Sibelius saying that Boult's recordings are 'very good indeed' and on the box feature two review extracts: 'Sir Adrian Boult conducts as though he loves every note' (New York Times) and 'The playing is noble and exciting, the sound big and bright' (The Washington Post) and I would agree with these, although this is now obviously a historical recording. Boult's performances demonstrate a great integrity of approach, no exaggerated distortions and are all the more moving (as in 'Tapiola') for being slightly understated, as in the storm sequence towards the end of Tapiola. I also very much like the Volume 2 programme of works, notwithstanding the ubiquitous 'Finlandia'. Boult's recordings of the 1950s including his Vaughan Williams cycle and 'Job', Bax's 'Tintagel' and Walton's First Symphony are my favourite versions of these works.
Quote from: Moonfish on May 28, 2014, 10:27:37 AM
I have not heard much of Boult performing Sibelius. How do these recordings of the tone poems (mono I presume) compare with others that you own (or have listened to). Thanks for bringing Boult forward Vandermolen! :)
I wonder if a few of these tone poems (in vol 1 & 2) are the ones found on CD 10 in the Brilliant set above..?
Peter
Actually it is only Boult's 'Prelude to The Tempest', which features in the Brilliant box, which incudes Hans Rosbaud's equally fine version of 'Tapiola' and other tone poems.
Now listening to Snöfrid and Sibelius's only opera The maiden in the tower. I love both of these works passionately and I think they are an excellent proof that Sibelius can write rather impressively for human voice. It's shame these are not perfomed very often: for Sibelius's first (and unfortunately only) opera project this is very convincing work, even if rather small in scale both in length and in orchestra, you could almost call it a chamber opera. The libretto of course is almost pure crap but excellent music saves a lot. It's really too bad that nothing came of Sibelius's Wagnerian Kalevala opera "Veneen luominen" or opera based on Juhani Aho's Juha. Although much of musical material in Veneen luominen that Sibelius finished ended up in Lemminkäinen suite which I adore. If I recall correctly, The swan of Tuonela was originally supposed to be a prelude.
As for Snöfrid, it just blows my mind. The use of orchestra is extremely colorful and impressive, almost Straussian. I actually regard this work higher than some of his more well-known masterpieces. To some extent, the maiden in the tower too although Snöfrid is to me a far greater work. Sibelius is to me one of those composers who has several hidden gems outside of his main repertory.
Quote from: Alberich on May 30, 2014, 03:21:21 AM
Now listening to Snöfrid and Sibelius's only opera The maiden in the tower. I love both of these works passionately and I think they are an excellent proof that Sibelius can write rather impressively for human voice. It's shame these are not perfomed very often: for Sibelius's first (and unfortunately only) opera project this is very convincing work, even if rather small in scale both in length and in orchestra, you could almost call it a chamber opera. The libretto of course is almost pure crap but excellent music saves a lot. It's really too bad that nothing came of Sibelius's Wagnerian Kalevala opera "Veneen luominen" or opera based on Juhani Aho's Juha. Although much of musical material in Veneen luominen that Sibelius finished ended up in Lemminkäinen suite which I adore. If I recall correctly, The swan of Tuonela was originally supposed to be a prelude.
As for Snöfrid, it just blows my mind. The use of orchestra is extremely colorful and impressive, almost Straussian. I actually regard this work higher than some of his more well-known masterpieces. To some extent, the maiden in the tower too although Snöfrid is to me a far greater work. Sibelius is to me one of those composers who has several hidden gems outside of his main repertory.
And don't forget
Luonnotar!!
Quote from: North Star on June 01, 2014, 12:06:10 PM
And don't forget Luonnotar!!
Of course, how clumsy of me to forget that masterpiece!
Just heard for the first time Monteux's recording of Symphony #2 and it bowled me over (on a very good LP I picked-up recently). Perhaps over-the-top romanticism, and there are some peculiar moments that I am going to go back to in an attempt to discern just what he is doing, but the finale had me weeping, yes, weeping for joy. Just when the 6th had taken over as my favorite Sibelius symphony. Can anyone comment on how good the CD transfer is?
Edit: Sorry for my "post first, research later" mentality; there's considerable support for this recording here.
Quote from: North Star on May 28, 2014, 04:07:45 AM
Definitely a video Sarge should watch, too 8)
https://www.youtube.com/v/M7tLqZXFMNo
Thank you...I enjoyed that. The music wasn't bad either.
Sarge
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on June 03, 2014, 05:32:44 AM
Just heard for the first time Monteux's recording of Symphony #2 and it bowled me over (on a very good LP I picked-up recently). Perhaps over-the-top romanticism, and there are some peculiar moments that I am going to go back to in an attempt to discern just what he is doing, but the finale had me weeping, yes, weeping for joy. Just when the 6th had taken over as my favorite Sibelius symphony. Can anyone comment on how good the CD transfer is?
Edit: Sorry for my "post first, research later" mentality; there's considerable support for this recording here.
Yes, it's a wonderfully moving and poetic performance, as good as any I know. Played it in the car on my way to work today.
Time for some Sunday Sibelius!
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 08, 2014, 04:38:47 AM
Time for some Sunday Sibelius!
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Great set! I have this CD which is terrific and includes a great 'Tapiola':
[asin]B00004TTX3[/asin]
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 08, 2014, 04:38:47 AM
Time for some Sunday Sibelius!
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Chambernut,
Have you heard Maazel's Sibelius with the Pittsburgh SO? I just wonder how they compare? :-X
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2014, 12:16:01 PM
Chambernut,
Have you heard Maazel's Sibelius with the Pittsburgh SO? I just wonder how they compare? :-X
I have not, but many people have and view it favourably. Many prefer Maazel's recording with the Pittsburgh SO over the Vienna.
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2014, 12:16:01 PM
I just wonder how they compare?
Like night and day. It could be two conductors so different are they. The Vienna performances are swift, craggy and given an in-your-face sound stage. Hearing this Fourth is like being stabbed with an icicle. The Pittsburgh perfomances are comparitively soft-focused, very beautiful and, except for the Third, much slower. He wallows in the music--which isn't bad if one is in the mood for wallowing. As an example, here are the timings for the Seventh:
Maazel/Pittsburgh 25:53
Maazel/Vienna 21:18
Favorites: the Vienna 1, 4 and 7; Pittsburgh 3, 5 and 6.
Sarge
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 09, 2014, 03:53:06 AM
I have not, but many people have and view it favourably. Many prefer Maazel's recording with the Pittsburgh SO over the Vienna.
Dang, and you have to post this just as I am listening to Nos. 4 & 5 from the Vienna cycle. >:( 8)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2014, 04:18:02 AM
Like night and day. It could be two different conductors so different are they. The Vienna performances are swift, craggy and given an in-your-face sound stage. Hearing this Fourth is like being stabbed with an icicle. The Pittsburgh perfomances are comparitively soft-focused, very beautiful and, except for the Third, much slower. He wallows in the music--which isn't bad if one is in the mood for wallowing. As an example, here are the timings for the Seventh:
Maazel/Pittsburgh 25:53
Maazel/Vienna 21:18
Favorites: the Vienna 1, 4 and 7; Pittsburgh 3, 5 and 6.
Sarge
I enjoy quick tempos for # 2 and # 5. I think it was Renfield who described the Maazel/Vienna 4th as being 'liquid nitrogen'. :D
There is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 05:44:08 AM
There is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
Yes, give it more time. If you need incentive, the Seventh received the most votes in the poll. It's a definite favorite around here.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20200.msg611350.html#msg611350
Sarge
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 05:44:08 AM
There is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
???
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 05:44:08 AMThere is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
Just the kind of comment I want to read while I'm listening to Maazel & VPO's recording of it..
It might not be my favourite - then again, it might be.
Keep listening. :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2014, 05:50:00 AM
Yes, give it more time. If you need incentive, the Seventh received the most votes in the poll. It's a definite favorite around here.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20200.msg611350.html#msg611350
Sarge
Why so little love for third in that poll? ??? That symphony is one of the greatest no. 3 symphonies ever made, right there with Eroica, Mahler's and Bruckner's ambitious ones, Brahms's tender one, Saint-Saëns's Organ symphony and Schumann's magnificent work.
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 08:48:56 AM
Why so little love for third in that poll? ??? That symphony is one of the greatest no. 3 symphonies ever made, right there with Eroica, Mahler's and Bruckner's ambitious ones, Brahms's tender one, Saint-Saëns's Organ symphony and Schumann's magnificent work.
I love the third, too - but the later ones are more, I don't know... pure, distilled
Sibelius. The early ones must have gotten votes from those who prefer their romanticism to the sparseness of the later ones.
The Third is one of those quiet beauties.
I like the Third a lot. The problem with it, as far as I'm concerned, is that when I'm thinking of subtly understated symphonic writing, I've probably already queued up the Sixth...
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 08:48:56 AM
Why so little love for third in that poll? ??? That symphony is one of the greatest no. 3 symphonies ever made, right there with Eroica, Mahler's and Bruckner's ambitious ones, Brahms's tender one, Saint-Saëns's Organ symphony and Schumann's magnificent work.
Sibelius' 3rd is one of my least favorites along with his 1st, 2nd, and 5th. For me, it doesn't get any better than the 4th, 6th, and 7th.
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 05:44:08 AM
There is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
Blasphemer! :)
That is the greatest piece of music ever written. :blank:
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2014, 05:44:08 AM
There is one symphony of Sibelius that I don't like much (maybe I need to hear it more often) and that is the seventh. All other symphonies I love unconditionally.
Give it more time. When it finally clicks you'll be happy you persevered.
Quote from: Wanderer on June 10, 2014, 04:48:11 AM
Give it more time. When it finally clicks you'll be happy you persevered.
Amen brother, amen.
Quote from: North Star on June 30, 2014, 03:06:44 PM
Thanks! Berglund & Helsinki are obviously a legendary team in Sibelius. Fitting time for listening to Berglund's recordings now, since he was a soccer fanatic, btw, spending rehearsal breaks in Bournemouth outside kicking the ball.
That live recording of Storgårds & BBC SO was very good, too - although I recall a percussionist being a bit too enthusiastic at one point. :)
Tangentially, this listening has been the happy, serendiptitous inspiration of a co-worker telling me that she was listening to the
Fifth Symphony, and really enjoying the whole . . . except for those last chords. Although she is quite a lover of classical music, regularly goes to the
Rhode Island Philharmonic concerts, I think this year may be her first go at the mighty
Op.82. Naturally, I asked her who the performers were . . . later that day she shot me a text message,
Paavo Berglund [!!!]
When I saw her in the office next day, I gingerly asked,
Do you recall which orchestra? (It's the
Bournemouth Symphony, and she has since lent me the CD, and in fact, I think the performance perfectly convincing.) Anyway, I mentioned that I've heard
Berglund with the
Helsinki Phil . . . as a rule, she doesn't care to hear all that many different recordings of the same piece, but she did accept my offer to bring her "a couple" (I brought her four:
Berglund/Helsinki Phil,
Lenny/NY Phil,
Rattle/CBSO, &
Blomstedt/SFSO.) Of course, I am giving her ample time to listen at her own pace.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2014, 07:22:35 AM
Tangentially, this listening has been the happy, serendiptitous inspiration of a co-worker telling me that she was listening to the Fifth Symphony, and really enjoying the whole . . . except for those last chords. Although she is quite a lover of classical music, regularly goes to the Rhode Island Philharmonic concerts, I think this year may be her first go at the mighty Op.82. Naturally, I asked her who the performers were . . . later that day she shot me a text message, Paavo Berglund [!!!] Jarvi
Ahem, edited by:
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Jarvi-Paavo-12%5BMathias-Bothor%5D.jpg)
:)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 01, 2014, 07:22:35 AM
Tangentially, this listening has been the happy, serendiptitous inspiration of a co-worker telling me that she was listening to the Fifth Symphony, and really enjoying the whole . . . except for those last chords. Although she is quite a lover of classical music, regularly goes to the Rhode Island Philharmonic concerts, I think this year may be her first go at the mighty Op.82. Naturally, I asked her who the performers were . . . later that day she shot me a text message, Paavo Berglund [!!!]
When I saw her in the office next day, I gingerly asked, Do you recall which orchestra? (It's the Bournemouth Symphony, and she has since lent me the CD, and in fact, I think the performance perfectly convincing.) Anyway, I mentioned that I've heard Berglund with the Helsinki Phil . . . as a rule, she doesn't care to hear all that many different recordings of the same piece, but she did accept my offer to bring her "a couple" (I brought her four: Berglund/Helsinki Phil, Lenny/NY Phil, Rattle/CBSO, & Blomstedt/SFSO.) Of course, I am giving her ample time to listen at her own pace.
While we're waiting her comments on the performances, I'd be interested to read what you think of that group of recordings, both from Berglund included.
(I'm listening to
Berglund &
Helsinki Phil now, the brass in the first movement :) :))
Quote from: North Star on July 01, 2014, 09:54:39 AM
(I'm listening to Berglund & Helsinki Phil now, the brass in the first movement :) :) )
I love that set!
Separately:
Quote from: Guy RickardsIn January 1916 he began to prepare the [Fifth] symphony for publication. As he did so, he became increasingly dissatisfied with its structure, noting on 26 January, 'I am wrestling with God. I'd like to give my new symphony another, more human form. Something closer to the earth, something more alive. The problem is that during the course of the work I have changed.' A full recomposition was a daunting task and Sibelius's diary records no work on it from mid February until the beginning of October, when the necessity of finalizing the changes in time for a re-première on his fifty-first birthday was of increasing urgency.
From the
Sibelius volume of the Phaidon series, pp. 134-135.
Sibelius and the tone poem/occasional piece are no strangers of course but up till now some of the rarities on this absolutely fabulous Sibelius/Groves disc had slipped right past me. Happy to say I've amended that.
A shortlist:
In Memoriam, Op.59
Canzonetta, Op.62a
Valse Romantique, Op.62b
Suite Mignonne, Op.98a
Suite Champetre, Op.98b
What a fabulous imagination Sibelius had. Even in some of the shortish works here his sense of proportion is dead-on. Not a note is wasted.
From the sound of it Sir Charles Groves and the Royal Liverpool PO give it their all in these performances, aided in no small measure by the dedicated sonics - that is, rich, punchy, warm, and wonderfully transparent (from 1973-75!).
[asin]B0000CGP1U[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 03, 2014, 06:18:52 PM
Sibelius and the tone poem/occasional piece are no strangers of course but up till now some of the rarities on this absolutely fabulous Sibelius/Groves disc had slipped right past me. Happy to say I've amended that.
A shortlist:
In Memoriam, Op.59
Canzonetta, Op.62a
Valse Romantique, Op.62b
Suite Mignonne, Op.98a
Suite Champetre, Op.98b
What a fabulous imagination Sibelius had. Even in some of the shortish works here his sense of proportion is dead-on. Not a note is wasted.
From the sound of it Sir Charles Groves and the Royal Liverpool PO give it their all in these performances, aided in no small measure by the dedicated sonics - that is, rich, punchy, warm, and wonderfully transparent (from 1973-75!).
[asin]B0000CGP1U[/asin]
I had the original LP release of Groves's 'The Tempest' my introduction to this fine work. I think that it was coupled with The Bard and In Memoriam, both great discoveries for me. Symphony No. 3 is one of my favourites. I think that it is the symphony in which Sibelius becomes Sibelius.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2014, 10:45:20 PM
I had the original LP release of Groves's 'The Tempest' my introduction to this fine work. I think that it was coupled with The Bard and In Memoriam, both great discoveries for me. Symphony No. 3 is one of my favourites. I think that it is the symphony in which Sibelius becomes Sibelius.
Yes, agree about the third symphony.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 03, 2014, 10:45:20 PMSymphony No. 3 is one of my favourites. I think that it is the symphony in which Sibelius becomes Sibelius.
More or less, although the slow movement of the Second Symphony also qualifies (esp. those brass outbursts).
The Third is probably my favourite overall, though the 4th and 6th are close behind (I'm not sure I could listen to the 6th everyday though, I'd probably kill myself within a month, or move to Finland and spend the rest of my life staring at the snow). I've never been as strongly moved by the 7th for some reason, though I "know" it's a great work—perhaps because I didn't get to know it during the same, extremely vulnerable, period of my life. 2 through 6 is pretty much Sibelius for me.
Quote from: amw on July 04, 2014, 08:41:06 PM
More or less, although the slow movement of the Second Symphony also qualifies (esp. those brass outbursts).
The Third is probably my favourite overall, though the 4th and 6th are close behind (I'm not sure I could listen to the 6th everyday though, I'd probably kill myself within a month, or move to Finland and spend the rest of my life staring at the snow). I've never been as strongly moved by the 7th for some reason, though I "know" it's a great work—perhaps because I didn't get to know it during the same, extremely vulnerable, period of my life. 2 through 6 is pretty much Sibelius for me.
7 has a remarkable emotional flow and logic to it, unlike any other, which is why I respond to it so much. All of his mature symphonies have their own moods though: something, if not for everyone, at least for a lucky few of us.
I am planning to revisit Sibelius's symphonies at some point in the not-too-distant future, I don't even own a complete set. The summer of 2008 was a long time ago (if you're my age). My impressions are almost certain to be different this time around.
Thank god I'm not the only one who doesn't like 7th much. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it but it neither sends much of those shivers going down my back that say the "Christ theme" in slow movement of 2nd symphony does. I may sound shallow, but if I were shallow, I wouldn't love 4th symphony, right? Which I absolutely adore. That 3rd movement is equal in power to funeral march in eroica or Götterdämmerung. IIRC Sibelius asked that they play this movement at his funeral.
Currently, as of this minute :D, these are my following favourites in order:
1. Symphony No. 6
2. Symphony No. 2
3. Symphony No. 4, 5 and 7.
4. Symphony No. 3
5. Symphony No. 1 (and I love this symphony, it is just that I love the others even more at the moment.)
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 05, 2014, 06:56:44 AM
[...]
5. Symphony No. 1 (and I love this symphony, it is just that I love the others even more at the moment.)
Yes, yes, and yes.
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 05, 2014, 06:56:44 AM
Currently, as of this minute :D, these are my following favourites in order:
1. Symphony No. 6
2. Symphony No. 2
3. Symphony No. 4, 5 and 7.
4. Symphony No. 3
5. Symphony No. 1 (and I love this symphony, it is just that I love the others even more at the moment.)
I find Sibelius had the good graces to improve with each attempt.
Quote from: Ken B on July 05, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
I find Sibelius had the good graces to improve with each attempt.
That's the way you do it.
In memory of the late Maestro Maazel
Symphony No. 5, 6 and 7.
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
I'm back in Sibelius symphony mode and falling in love with them all over again. Can't believe I haven't listened to any of them in about 3.5 years! For symphonies 1 & 2 it's been 5 years, and for 5 through 7 it's even longer. What the hell was I thinking?!
I absolutely need to get some more works - all I have is 2 Double Deccas of Ashkenazy performing the symphonies, which has a handful of other works. En Saga is great (I've recently seen a serious Sibelian say Ashkenazy's version is particularly good). I now love the Swan of Tuonela and definitely want all 4 legends.
I shall start scouring this thread for recommendations...
Quote from: orfeo on July 15, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
I'm back in Sibelius symphony mode and falling in love with them all over again. Can't believe I haven't listened to any of them in about 3.5 years! For symphonies 1 & 2 it's been 5 years, and for 5 through 7 it's even longer. What the hell was I thinking?!
I absolutely need to get some more works - all I have is 2 Double Deccas of Ashkenazy performing the symphonies, which has a handful of other works. En Saga is great (I've recently seen a serious Sibelian say Ashkenazy's version is particularly good). I now love the Swan of Tuonela and definitely want all 4 legends.
I shall start scouring this thread for recommendations...
Segerstam (Ondine) is excellent in Lemminkäinen, but I bet this, released last month, is superb, too. On a general level, you can't go wrong with Berglund & Helsinki or Vänskä & Lahti.
[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
Quote from: North Star on July 15, 2014, 03:17:53 AM
Segerstam (Ondine) is excellent in Lemminkäinen, but I bet this, released last month, is superb, too. On a general level, you can't go wrong with Berglund & Helsinki or Vänskä & Lahti.
[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
Yes, I saw that one with interest.
I'm actually finding myself quite irritated with the Sibelius discography, because it tends to be so very symphony-focused. With the same fillers cropping up more often than not.* One wonders if that's just a consequence of a composer writing a group of symphonies that tend to fit 2-to-a-disc quite neatly...
...and currently I have some allergic reaction to Vanska's name thanks to the complete Sibelius set and all its sub-permutations. An awful lot of discs from that series come across as "here's one thing we know you'll all want, coupled with first thoughts/alternate versions/youthful works that the composer didn't actually want and most of you won't either". But thankfully, that new Vanska disc doesn't fall into that category. One major, well-known opus coupled with an interesting yet sensible filler is what I'm after.
The Charles Groves 2-disc set that was recently mentioned looks interesting, I've not seen that until now.
Another set that caught my eye was this one:
[asin]B0009W4LLI[/asin]
However I've seen a curious mix of views regarding Jarvi's performances. Some seem to like them a great deal, others seem to find them rather 'safe'. I don't know what I'm looking for, though... all I can tell you is that I do enjoy Ashkenazy's symphonies, but I don't really have anything to compare them to.
There's also a set of Legends by Jarvi on BIS, I'm guessing they're different performances? The Penguin Guide seems to like the BIS one, but again I've seen a lot of comments suggesting Jarvi is a bit staid.
* I know I'm far from typical around here (nor, judging from the market supply, am I typical in the market!) but I'd much rather have good-quality performances of a dozen different works than own a dozen performances of the same work in the quest for the 'perfect' version. For any composer worth their salt I'm more interested in getting a picture of their body of work. And I find it hard to credit that a composer of the quality demonstrated in Sibelius' symphonies didn't write a very large amount of excellent music. I like his symphonies for much the same reasons I like Holmboe's (in fact, comparisons to Sibelius are one of the main reasons I ever tried Holmboe), and this forum is witness to the effect that the latter composer has had on me!
I've just had a look at some reviews of that 'new' Vanska Legends. It turns out that the recordings aren't brand new, some of them have appeared on other discs, but never all together!
(That's what I mean, the way BIS has handled this material has been annoying. Looks like they're finally fixing it?)
All of the 3 or 4 reviews I found were very positive.
In memory of the late Maestro Maazel
Symphony No. 2 & 3
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Also curious if anyone has heard any of the recordings of Inkinen with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra? As well as the symphonies, there are these 2 discs...
[asin]B000ZJVI4I[/asin]
[asin]B001JNCOF6[/asin]
Quote from: orfeo on July 15, 2014, 05:41:28 AM
Also curious if anyone has heard any of the recordings of Inkinen with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra? As well as the symphonies, there are these 2 discs...
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000ZJVI4I.01.L.jpg)
Sibelius, Tone Poems I
NZSO / Inkinen (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000ZJVI4I/goodmusicguide-20)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001JNCOF6.01.L.jpg)
Sibelius, Tone Poems II
NZSO / Inkinen (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001JNCOF6/goodmusicguide-20)
Very good recordings, indeed... good enough, certainly, to have made Inkinen's name. Go-to stuff.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 15, 2014, 05:58:11 AM
Very good recordings, indeed... good enough, certainly, to have made Inkinen's name. Go-to stuff.
Thanks. I did seem to be finding a lot of positive remarks about them.
I'd be interested if you had any thoughts on Jarvi (either DG or BIS recordings), as you seem to be rather well-versed on matters Sibelian.
In memory of the late Maestro Maazel
Symphony No. 1st & 4th - 'The Liquid Nitrogen Symphony'
[asin]B0000041Z3[/asin]
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 15, 2014, 08:24:00 AM
4th - 'The Liquid Nitrogen Symphony'
?? I'm not familiar enough with this piece to get the reference,
Ray. But I'm intrigued. 8)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2014, 05:32:39 PM
?? I'm not familiar enough with this piece to get the reference, Ray. But I'm intrigued. 8)
Someone called Maazel & VPO's
S4 interpretation liquid nitrogen on this forum ages ago.
Quote from: North Star on July 15, 2014, 05:38:02 PM
Someone called Maazel & VPO's S4 interpretation liquid nitrogen on this forum ages ago.
Ahh, thanks,
Karlo. Perhaps I'll give this performance a listen.
Was it Elgarian?
Renfield:
Quote from: Renfield on August 16, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
That recording is like an intravenous injection of liquid nitrogen. Meant in the best possible way!
Thanks!
This is another disc that's caught my eye now, somehow didn't the other day:
[asin]B000068R26[/asin]
Another Vanska disc with a tracklist that isn't random bits-and-pieces. A couple of glowing reviews, and only a low-level grumble from the Hurwitzer. Possibly a bit harder to get a hold of, though.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 15, 2014, 05:32:39 PM
?? I'm not familiar enough with this piece to get the reference, Ray. But I'm intrigued. 8)
Re: Sibelius 4th - Maazel/VPO - as mentioned already, it was Renfield who came up with the reference. It is a corker! :)
Quote from: orfeo on July 15, 2014, 06:08:06 AM
Thanks. I did seem to be finding a lot of positive remarks about them.
I'd be interested if you had any thoughts on Jarvi (either DG or BIS recordings), as you seem to be rather well-versed on matters Sibelian.
The Papa Järvi recordings of the tone poems on DG was my first collection of these pieces -- and it has served me well... but I cannot say that it bowled me over, there and then. Then again that doesn't mean that it's not up to Inkinnen, because when I heard the latter, my ears were at a much more appreciative state... thanks to the wisdom old age had brought me by then. ;)
His BIS recordings... well, actually, I probably have SOME of them in that amazing "Essential Sibelius" box of BIS'... But again, off the top of my head, I find myself unable to make any reasonable value judgement that would give you anything substantial to go by.
I absolutely love the Maazel/Vienna Phil recordings of Sibelius' symphonies. I am indeed curious about the Maazel/Pittsburgh set, also. However, I seem to prefer Sibelius on the quick side 'brisk tempos'. The Maazel/Vienna and Maazel/Pittsburgh sets differ vastly in this regard. Maybe that is not a bad thing for me, just fearful the differences may be too stark? ???
I am not enthusiastic about the composer, but someone who is recommended Maazel/Pittsburg for the 3rd symphony. At least the middle movement is rather fast, so I don't think the tempi are all slower. (I have not heard the Decca/Vienna recordings, as mentioned, I am not a fan).
I absolutely cannot stop listening to Symphony No.2. I'm obsessed.
[asin] B0000042GV[/asin]
The first movement just astounds me. It's like an anti-sonata form. All the bits and pieces are there, but it sounds like an introduction... until eventually your brain realises that there isn't a big theme coming along, and that WAS the exposition.
And then there's all the drama of the second movement.
In both movements, the use of space and silence is just amazing.
Quote from: orfeo on July 17, 2014, 06:32:43 AM
I absolutely cannot stop listening to Symphony No.2. I'm obsessed.
It is an amazing symphony, isn't it? :) I am particularly fond of the opening movement, and the triumphant 4th movement. Glad you are enjoying it!
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 17, 2014, 06:41:22 AM
It is an amazing symphony, isn't it? :) I am particularly fond of the opening movement, and the triumphant 4th movement. Glad you are enjoying it!
Well, they're all amazing (although I struggle with a couple of individual movements - not sure how much of it's me, how much of it's Ashkenazy, how much of it's Sibelius). Any time I start listening to the symphonies, I end up deciding that this is one of the greatest cycles of any composer. On a level with Beethoven.
There's actually a book on the Beethoven and Sibelius cycles, making comparisons and drawing parallels, but from what I've seen of a library copy it's extremely analytical and likely to be very heavy going. The kind of thing one could only read a few pages of in each session before one's head would start spinning.
Quote from: orfeo on July 17, 2014, 06:59:29 AM
Well, they're all amazing (although I struggle with a couple of individual movements - not sure how much of it's me, how much of it's Ashkenazy, how much of it's Sibelius). Any time I start listening to the symphonies, I end up deciding that this is one of the greatest cycles of any composer. On a level with Beethoven.
Yes, with Sibelius symphonies, I find I'm often changing my mind as to which is my favourite Sibelius symphony. It's a merry-go-round. :)
It is only recently that I have learnt to love Symphony No. 2, especially the wonderfully inspiriting finale. My ideal CD coupling is Symphony No. 2 and Tapiola and I have tracked down a couple of CDs which do feature both works.
No. 2 gets so much radio & concert play here in Finland that I would like to stop listening to it occasionally.. Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 & Tapiola I listen to much more often. :)
My ears definitely required a break from the Second for a good while. And I am careful to treat it with respect, so that my affection may be undimmed 8)
Ah well, as previously mentioned it's about 5 years since I last listened to the Second, before binging in recent days, so I guess I was about ready for it. And for the First last week, which also got multiple listens.
It's the Fifth where I've tended to stumble in the past. I don't know that Ashkenazy is as highly regarded in that one as he is many of the others.
At first I liked 2nd symphony's 1st and 4th movements best but nowadays I prefer Second movement. It is so immensely powerful and moving.
Quote from: North Star on July 17, 2014, 07:51:02 AM
No. 2 gets so much radio & concert play here in Finland that I would like to stop listening to it occasionally.. Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 & Tapiola I listen to much more often. :)
I feel the same about Vaughan Williams's 'The Lark Ascending' which is done to death over here, especially on Classic FM.
Quote from: Alberich on July 17, 2014, 09:53:26 AM
At first I liked 2nd symphony's 1st and 4th movements best but nowadays I prefer Second movement. It is so immensely powerful and moving.
I do and still do today! :)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 17, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
I feel the same about Vaughan Williams's 'The Lark Ascending' which is done to death over here, especially on Classic FM.
A pity, as it is such a beautiful miniature!
Quote from: North Star on July 17, 2014, 07:51:02 AM
No. 2 gets so much radio & concert play here in Finland that I would like to stop listening to it occasionally.. Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 & Tapiola I listen to much more often. :)
True! I guess one's ears get jaded after a while. Why do you think that the Finnish radio stations put less emphasis on the other symphonies/works?
Quote from: karlhenning on July 17, 2014, 10:34:35 AM
A pity, as it is such a beautiful miniature!
I agree
Karl and I used to really love it and still recognise it as you say a beautiful miniature but it is on the radio all the time here. I'm sure that my appreciation of it will return.
Quote from: Moonfish on July 17, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
True! I guess one's ears get jaded after a while. Why do you think that the Finnish radio stations put less emphasis on the other symphonies/works?
Well it's not that they play the others less than some other classical radio station, say in the US, but those more 'national romantic' & 'heroic' things like the
2nd Symphony &
Lemminkäinen's Return (and
Finlandia, although even the radio guys seem to get saturated by that, and it's mostly played close to the Independence Day) are what is popular, although of course the later symphonies & tone poems are played on the radio (and in concert halls) too, just not quite as often.
Quote from: orfeo on July 17, 2014, 06:32:43 AM
I absolutely cannot stop listening to Symphony No.2. I'm obsessed.
[asin] B0000042GV[/asin]
The first movement just astounds me. It's like an anti-sonata form. All the bits and pieces are there, but it sounds like an introduction... until eventually your brain realises that there isn't a big theme coming along, and that WAS the exposition.
And then there's all the drama of the second movement.
In both movements, the use of space and silence is just amazing.
Sibelius was known for his mastery and innovation of form, but to me what makes his music special is the forward motion and the emotional logic. Anyway the great thing about liking #2 is ... They just keep getting better from there. Each symphony is even better than its predecessor.
Quote from: Ken B on July 17, 2014, 08:46:46 PM
They just keep getting better from there. Each symphony is even better than its predecessor.
It's true. And of course, he started off with a good
First.
Quote from: Ken B on July 17, 2014, 08:46:46 PM
Sibelius was known for his mastery and innovation of form, but to me what makes his music special is the forward motion and the emotional logic.
No argument there. And indeed, that's a large part of why I see Holmboe as a successor. I definitely need to get more Sibelius outside the symphonies and see what kind of response I have. 3 discs are on the shopping list... but so are a lot of other things!
Quote from: orfeo on July 18, 2014, 05:16:51 AM
No argument there. And indeed, that's a large part of why I see Holmboe as a successor.
+ 1
Quote from: orfeo on July 18, 2014, 05:16:51 AM
No argument there. And indeed, that's a large part of why I see Holmboe as a successor. I definitely need to get more Sibelius outside the symphonies and see what kind of response I have. 3 discs are on the shopping list... but so are a lot of other things!
I really like Holmboe, except the quartets. He's very inconsistent, but at his best, like symphony 8, he's very good indeed. His chamber music for brass is outstanding.
This piece relates a visit I recently made to the house of Sibelius. I visited with my friend Juha and his colleague Arja. They have been engaged to produce the first translation from Swedish into Finnish of the diaries of Sibelius.
The highlight of this year's visit to Finland lay just outside Helsinki. Juha and Arja wanted to visit the Sibelius house, to marinade in the atmosphere of the man who has preoccupied them for very many months. I enjoyed the visit a great deal; we were fortunate that there was almost no one else there to disturb the domesticity of the house. When Arja told the guide that she and Juha were translating the Sibelius diaries into Finnish for the 150th Anniversary, we got to see rooms that are off limits. In the upstairs study, where he did a lot of his composing, there are still boxes and boxes of his Cuban cigars. He never composed at the piano, but wrote laboriously once the music was complete in his head. He makes reference in the diaries to having a sore arse from composing and that whereas he loves tables for bottles and glasses and booze, he hates them for his laborious work.
Standing in the kitchen we had a long discussion about the composer, very interesting; with me acting as Dr Watson to two versions of Sherlock Holmes. The translation has been a huge undertaking and it has been fascinating to get some insights into the process. Although one generation back, Sibelius came from a very comfortable middle class professional background; he hoped that research into the deeper roots of his family would expose a more exalted lineage. However, it discovered that he came from a line of farmers. This seemed to cause much public and disconcerting comment, even ridicule. He had married into Russian aristocracy and his humble ancestors caused him a deal of embarrassment and insecurity. Juha obtained Swedish/Finnish dictionaries from 1903 and 1911. Even though Sibelius was still quite young then, he was deploying an older, more formal, style of language and word usage than was in those dictionaries. I guess this may have been a subconscious way of trying to bolster the respect of the community in which he felt undermined. Some parallels here with the insecurities of Elgar.
He insisted on a deep green glazed brick fireplace in the lounge; as that colour denoted a specific musical key, as did brown. So little has been changed, despite the family living in the house until, I think, the 1970s. We then went to a very different house of a painter friend of Sibelius, huge with vast windows to ensure good light and roof beams made out of logs that had been dragged across the ice.
Even before Juha got involved with this project, I almost continually heard Sibelius in my head when I traveled about Finland. The air is so clean and the northern light is distinctive, the music catches the light here in a remarkable way.
It was also interesting to see how he lived very well for many years utterly without money. Sibelius lived largely off the generosity of patrons, money from his wife's aristocratic family, of Russian origin, and by obtaining loans and loans to pay loans. He produced piano exercises and small pieces he thought little of. The best known of them now is 'Valse Triste' which would on its own have kept him comfortably afloat in royalties had he not sold the piece for a pittance, copyright and all.
His main compositions did not enable him to live well. However, unlike Wagner, Sibelius kept a meticulous track of all the money borrowed and he tried to pay it back, there are lists of the loans in the diaries. It was only in the last 10 years of his life, when lauded nationally, that he became wealthy, seriously wealthy. A great preoccupation of the writings is the lack of money. But even in seeming penury there was a housekeeper and a maid, suits from Paris, Cuban cigars by the box etc. The house is wonderfully comfortable in a down to earth way, one could move straight in and live happily in it. This is in contrast to the artist's house close by, mentioned above, where the furniture looks exceptionally uninviting and people must have sat stiffly or basically gone to bed to obtain some comfort.
Latterly as Sibelius' knees gave out, he lived downstairs in a bedroom produced from the nursery and used the library; no longer writing in the tiny room next to the main bedroom upstairs. That upper study has evidence of one other composer, a painted bust of Beethoven. Sibelius played the violin, the battered case is lying there and his granddaughter presently uses the violin professionally. For the 150th anniversary she will make a recording in the house using that violin.
There is a Steinway grand piano in the drawing room, a birthday gift to him, over which tension arises as to whether it should be kept intact or the innards pulled out for display in Helsinki. As he almost never touched it and composed in his head, this kind of thing makes me roll my eyes. The house seems quite dark now, as there are mature trees close to it which block the light in a way that they would not have even 60 years ago. The garden is lovely and both Sibelius and his wife are buried under a large very plain stone in the garden. The outlook is into the woods in one direction and across fields in the other direction. Rather like Beethoven, he took long walks to work out his ideas and refers to them in the diary as growing like a baby inside him, not to be written down until arriving at full term.
He was a sort of manic depressive, perhaps bi-polar. One entry in the diaries has him relating how very closed in he is, he walks to no good end, then he sees a group of swans rising and flying right over his head. He watches them wheel in the air and fly away. His mood transformed, he suddenly has a piece ready to write, yes that very one. He could be petty and then berate himself for it, as he did after an entry where he suspects the staff, who were with him for over 30 years, were pilfering the housekeeping. He was aware of his defects and fought against alcoholism, being dry for well over a decade.
The diary was written for him and his wife only to read, so there are many entries that cannot really be fully understood and seemingly some where he was certainly drunk. Luckily, both Juha and Arija very much like the maddening, rambling, self doubting man they encounter in his fractured writings. Due to the private nature of them, the diaries were only published in Swedish, (Sibelius' mother tongue), in 2005. The musicologist who prepared the original publication and whose footnotes are encyclopedic is now over 80. But he has been eager to re-explore and update his notes for this edition and has seemingly made many changes arising from conclusions suggested by Juha.
Although I did not sense the music of Sibelius in his house, again when travelling and down at the lake where we stayed with Juha's family, my head was filled with it, and in the peace here I have mulled over and written about the visit my head loud with that music and keen understand more.
Mike
Thanks for the write-up, Mike!
Aye, a most edifying read, thank you!
I think I'm finally coming to terms with the finale of the Third Symphony. Letting the initial chaos wash over me... letting it be chaotic before it comes together and finds direction in that obsessive hymn/chorale tune.
Which is good, because the first movement is one of my favourite things by anybody, ever, and it's been kind of awkward having a symphony where I'm in raptures to begin with and going 'huh?' later on.
Fascinating posting Mike. I was at the Sibelius house last summer myself, also with a Finnish friend called Juha (but not the one translating the diaries). I am jealous of you being admitted to rooms that are usually closed to visitors - however it was a wonderful experience, surpassing expectations and fulfilling a long-term ambition. I think I probably posted some photos somewhere in this thread.
Jeffrey
Am I nuts or is Hurwitz and all the critics I read?
I am listening to Colin Davis's RCA Third Symphony. It is freaking magnificent.
QuoteColin Davis and the LSO ... Their previous cycle for RCA was very spotty indeed, slackly played and not at all well recorded, particularly in the Third Symphony ... a blot on [Davis's] career
Thanks guys. Jeffrey, quite a coincidence. I know that going round on my own I would only have got 10% of the enrichment that I did. When we were there the entire upstairs had been shut as a fire precaution! I thought it was more to do with staffing. But it was upstairs we were shown privately and the very young guide had an in depth knowledge of every artefact. When Juha remarked that the dining set as being somehow out of place, the guide confirmed that it had been brought from the family's Helsinki flat and was not the old set they had used until the 1940s he even knew that sort of detail.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on July 21, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Thanks guys. Jeffrey, quite a coincidence. I know that going round on my own I would only have got 10% of the enrichment that I did. When we were there the entire upstairs had been shut as a fire precaution! I thought it was more to do with staffing. But it was upstairs we were shown privately and the very young guide had an in depth knowledge of every artefact. When Juha remarked that the dining set as being somehow out of place, the guide confirmed that it had been brought from the family's Helsinki flat and was not the old set they had used until the 1940s he even knew that sort of detail.
Mike
Mike, how interesting! We also had a very young and very well informed guide - I wonder if it was the same one. My Finnish friend, Juha, being a sauna fanatic, was very interested to see Sibelius's sauna, in the garden. It was indeed moving to see the grave of Sibelius and Aino in the garden. I take it that you also saw the sculpture/memorial to Sibelius in a park in Helsinki. I enjoyed our visit very much, thought Helsinki to be a very attractive city and found the Finns to be really friendly and helpful, especially when we got lost! The Helsinki-Stockholm Ferry was also a great experience, especially going through the archipelago early in the morning. My Finnish friends took us to their summer cottage on a large lake. When we arrived both my brother and I thought independently of the opening of Sibelius's Second Symphony!
Best wishes,
Jeffrey
I am glad you also had the lake experience. I have been visiting annually for about 10 years I think. I was amazed by the sauna. It was like another cottage, beautiful wood. I have still never heard a concert in Finland, though there is a younish busker in Helsinki who plays the Sibelius Violin concerto very beautifully.
Mike
Quote from: Ken B on July 21, 2014, 04:43:29 PM
Am I nuts or is Hurwitz and all the critics I read?
I am listening to Colin Davis's RCA Third Symphony. It is freaking magnificent.
I've not heard the
Davis/BSO recording of the
Op.52 . . . but in principle, from those syphonies which I
have heard from that set, I might agree that it is "spotty." But there are those whose ears I respect who feel otherwise.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2014, 04:47:36 AM
I've not heard the Davis/BSO recording of the Op.52 . . . but in principle, from those syphonies which I have heard from that set, I might agree that it is "spotty." But there are those whose ears I respect who feel otherwise.
Sarge just posted it on Listening. What say you
Sarge?
Quote from: Ken B on July 22, 2014, 04:49:52 AM
Sarge just posted it on Listening. What say you Sarge?
I like the RCA cycle with the LSO--and very much like the Third. It's certainly the equal of his justly admired Boston Third. I do cringe at the timpani disaster in the Fifth's first movement coda. Surely someone at the recording session must have noticed. Why wasn't there another take? Otherwise I think the set a fine one overall and well recorded too. The
Kullervo is simply magnificent, my favorite of the 11 I own. Sure, Davis does Brucknerize the first movement--but that's why I love it 8)
Sarge
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 15, 2014, 08:24:00 AM
In memory of the late Maestro Maazel
Symphony No. 1st & 4th - 'The Liquid Nitrogen Symphony'
Dig the groovy specs on Tony, Ray!
Haven't listened much to Sibelius the past couple of years. Shocked to see he's buried on page 5 of the composer discussion board! Ah, well, he's in good company with the other JS (Bach), Bax, Villalobos, Strauss, & Schumann. Thought I'd break out the last Sibelius recording I purchased and give it a spin. Disc #2 of the aborted Vänskä/Minnesota cycle (pretty good, even if it did win a Grammy). Let's hope with Osmo driving again in the Twin Cities that there's more of his big band (but
brisk!) cycle to come!
(Must ... resist ...
compulsion to play Berglund/COE immediately after!)
Has anyone heard Storgards' cycle of the symphonies yet? Would curious to know opinions on this one. May had it to the Christmas wish list.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2014, 06:50:05 PM
Has anyone heard Storgards' cycle of the symphonies yet? Would curious to know opinions on this one. May had it to the Christmas wish list.
I listened to parts of it. I remember it generally being very good, with interesting/novel interpretive decisions that had about an 80% success rate (but a couple ideas that just didn't work). For a true Sibelius fan, certainly worth listening and pondering. He leads a typically average orchestra to great heights. Let me see if I can dig up my more detailed post on this cycle.
Found it. Okay, it looks like I only listened to two of the symphonies. Guess I need to hear the rest now! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg790777/topicseen.html#msg790777)
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2014, 06:57:51 PM
I listened to parts of it. I remember it generally being very good, with interesting/novel interpretive decisions that had about an 80% success rate (but a couple ideas that just didn't work). For a true Sibelius fan, certainly worth listening and pondering. He leads a typically average orchestra to great heights. Let me see if I can dig up my more detailed post on this cycle.
Found it. Okay, it looks like I only listened to two of the symphonies. Guess I need to hear the rest now! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg790777/topicseen.html#msg790777)
Thanks, Brian. I have about 18 or 19 Sibelius cycles. I think I'm about done. It seems these performances aren't unique enough to warrant buying another cycle.
Is it fair to a composer to label one work as his BEST work? Probably not. Especially when it's a composer (e.g., Beethoven) whose stockpile of works stretches to the ionosphere.
And honestly I'd never given the idea much thought...until just this evening.
And that's only because of the titanic dissecting job that Haendel/Berglund/Bournemouth have done on Sibelius's violin concerto in the recording below. It's rare for me to find a recording that manages to unlock every single door, window, gate, lid, etc...into a composer's psyche. But that's just what happens here.
With all this "unlocking" going on I get this nagging feeling that somehow pinpointing a single work as a composer's best can actually be an obtainable goal. Although for now one composer at a time is about all I can muster.
So Sibelius's best work = the violin concerto.
(The Unesco Classics disc is the recording I have licensed from the EMI...and, brother, what glorious sonics here!)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CtvR3CH%2BL._SL1500_.jpg)
[asin]B000067DNX[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2014, 08:25:01 PMSo Sibelius's best work = the violin concerto.
Not for me. If I had to pick a favorite work it would
Symphony No. 4. It's turbulent, but completely bold and genuine in its directness. It also shows a transition from darkness to light and all of the conflicts and confrontations in-between. Truly a masterpiece.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2014, 08:41:02 PMIt also shows a transition from darkness to light
I have to say this comes across as a bizarre description of the Sibelius 4th. It's more like a transition from darkness to light... to darkness again... to complete insanity... >.>
Quote from: amw on September 18, 2014, 08:51:56 PM
I have to say this comes across as a bizarre description of the Sibelius 4th. It's more like a transition from darkness to light... to darkness again... to complete insanity... >.>
Well, my description is pretty vague because, for me, it's truly impossible to sum up in words what this masterwork actually sounds like. All I know is I think it's bloody brilliant!
I have several favorites. It is almost impossible to me to pick one. I appreciate several neglected works of his like Snöfrid or Jungfrun i tornet or many his chamber music works. More popular compositions like violin concerto, symphonies 2 and 6 and Pohjola's daughter are among my favorites as well.
Quote from: amw on September 18, 2014, 08:51:56 PM
I have to say this comes across as a bizarre description of the Sibelius 4th. It's more like a transition from darkness to light... to darkness again... to complete insanity... >.>
Yeah, to me, the light in Sibelius' Fourth is like when the sky is filled with storm clouds, but way off in a corner you see a tiny patch of sunshine, and then it disappears. That horn call in the first movement has always reminded me of the horn calls in the Fifth.
Tough to single out a masterpiece for Sibelius. The Violin Concerto certainly would never be a bad choice, in my opinion.
My personal bias brings me to Symphony No. 6. My more objective choice would be Symphony No. 2 or No. 5, or the Violin Concerto.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 19, 2014, 05:08:50 AM
My personal bias brings me to Symphony No. 6.
Much as I like so many of his works, my hunger for the
Op.104 is never sated.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 19, 2014, 05:39:54 AM
Much as I like so many of his works, my hunger for the Op.104 is never sated.
+1, mmm, I concur. Good day,
Karl! 8)
Have just realised how good the 'Wood Nymph' is. My other recommendation is the complete Karelia Music (Ondine and BIS):
[asin]B0007IP5OG[/asin]
Which one is the OP 104?
Quote from: karlhenning on September 19, 2014, 08:38:28 AM
Sixth Symphony, sorry!
Thanks. I tend to read this thread in batches, so I had many peices in mind (from reading all the different works being discussed), but now I realize you were answering a direct comment about that piece. On the other hand, I don't know the Opus numbers for any Sibelius pieces.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
Not for me. If I had to pick a favorite work it would Symphony No. 4. It's turbulent, but completely bold and genuine in its directness. It also shows a transition from darkness to light and all of the conflicts and confrontations in-between. Truly a masterpiece.
The fourth symphony is definitely up there. A perfect sidekick to the violin concerto.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2014, 04:17:10 PM
The fourth symphony is definitely up there. A perfect sidekick to the violin concerto.
Another Sibelius work which just completely mesmerizes me is
The Oceanides. I simply can't believe my ears each time I listen to it.
Can someone recommend a recording of the "symphonic poems" besides Finlandia and Tapiola? I think I haven't even heard most of them.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 20, 2014, 01:25:32 AM
Can someone recommend a recording of the "symphonic poems" besides Finlandia and Tapiola? I think I haven't even heard most of them.
Here's a recent thread on the subject:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23518.msg827323.html#msg827323
Sarge
Quote from: Jo498 on September 20, 2014, 01:25:32 AM
Can someone recommend a recording of the "symphonic poems" besides Finlandia and Tapiola? I think I haven't even heard most of them.
Yes, try this recording:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/058/MI0001058868.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm not sure of this recording's availability nowadays, but it will definitely get your foot into the door. Fine performances from Vanska/Lahti all-around.
What do you think is Sibbe's best symphonic poem? Most people answer Finlandia (from which I've heard that, considering it's origins, it isn't symphonic poem technically at all), Swan of Tuonela (which was intended as overture for his wagnerian opera project) or Tapiola which I like all but there are so many other high-quality symphonic poems. Even smaller ones such as The Dryad. If I had to say one it is without a question Pohjola's daughter. It is overwhelming. I find it kind of sad that Sibelius never composed tone poem about Sampo in Kalevala.
And some people here seem to really like The Wood Nymph.
Quote from: Alberich on September 20, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
What do you think is Sibbe's best symphonic poem? Most people answer Finlandia...
I'd hate to be most people.
Quote...(from which I've heard that, considering it's origins, it isn't symphonic poem technically at all), Swan of Tuonela (which was intended as overture for his wagnerian opera project) or Tapiola which I like all but there are so many other high-quality symphonic poems. Even smaller ones such as The Dryad. If I had to say one it is without a question Pohjola's daughter. It is overwhelming. I find it kind of sad that Sibelius never composed tone poem about Sampo in Kalevala.
And some people here seem to really like The Wood Nymph.
Wood Nymph is great, sure. So is the whole of
Lemminkäinen Suite, and
En Saga, and
Pohjola's Daughter, and
Oceanides.
Luonnotar definitely, if it counts. But
Tapiola is probably my favourite, very late and very sparse.
Is there a tone poem (or two..) by
Sibelius that anyone thinks is somehow less brilliant than the others?
Lemminkäinen suite and En Saga are probably my favorites after Pohjola's daughter. Case could be made for Luonnotar as well.
Less brilliant than others? Well, Nightride and sunrise is pretty monotonic. I like the very beginning most.
Quote from: Alberich on September 20, 2014, 10:39:02 AM
Lemminkäinen suite and En Saga are probably my favorites after Pohjola's daughter. Case could be made for Luonnotar as well.
Less brilliant than others? Well, Nightride and sunrise is pretty monotonic. I like the very beginning most.
And not everyone will agree with that. :)
I think it's time I revisited the work.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2007, 11:08:45 AM
Lounnotar, Opus 70
Barden, Opus 64
Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu (Nightride & Sunrise), Opus 55
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2014, 10:25:09 AM
I'd hate to be most people.Wood Nymph is great, sure. So is the whole of Lemminkäinen Suite, and En Saga, and Pohjola's Daughter, and Oceanides. Luonnotar definitely, if it counts. But Tapiola is probably my favourite, very late and very sparse.
Is there a tone poem (or two..) by Sibelius that anyone thinks is somehow less brilliant than the others?
Very much agree with this although I also like 'The Bard'.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2014, 01:15:48 PM
Very much agree with this although I also like 'The Bard'.
Well, one can't be expected to remember them all. 8)
Barden is a gem too, for sure.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 20, 2014, 01:25:32 AM
Can someone recommend a recording of the "symphonic poems" besides Finlandia and Tapiola? I think I haven't even heard most of them.
I mentioned this set a few pages back. It's great for some tone poem rarities, although it's no longer in print (yet again).
[asin]B0000CGP1U[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 20, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
I mentioned this set a few pages back. It's great for some tone poem rarities, although it's no longer in print (yet again).
Hm, I don't know... If
Bernard Michael O'Hanlon likes something, it's usually a bad sign. Or at least him disliking something is a very good sign indeed. :P
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2014, 07:08:54 AM
Yes, try this recording:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/058/MI0001058868.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm not sure of this recording's availability nowadays, but it will definitely get your foot into the door. Fine performances from Vanska/Lahti all-around.
Second this one.
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2014, 04:33:16 PM
Hm, I don't know... If Bernard Michael O'Hanlon likes something, it's usually a bad sign. Or at least him disliking something is a very good sign indeed. :P
;D Try to just forget you ever saw O'Hanlon's review. That might help. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2014, 07:08:54 AM
Yes, try this recording:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/058/MI0001058868.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm not sure of this recording's availability nowadays, but it will definitely get your foot into the door. Fine performances from Vanska/Lahti all-around.
That's the one I bought only 2 months ago! From Presto Classical, although I wouldn't be surprised if it could still be obtained elsewhere as well.
Quote from: Alberich on September 20, 2014, 10:07:06 AM
What do you think is Sibbe's best symphonic poem? Most people answer Finlandia (from which I've heard that, considering it's origins, it isn't symphonic poem technically at all), Swan of Tuonela (which was intended as overture for his wagnerian opera project) or Tapiola which I like all but there are so many other high-quality symphonic poems. Even smaller ones such as The Dryad. If I had to say one it is without a question Pohjola's daughter. It is overwhelming. I find it kind of sad that Sibelius never composed tone poem about Sampo in Kalevala.
And some people here seem to really like The Wood Nymph.
The Oceanides,
Pohjola's Daughter, and
Luonnotar remain three absolute favorites of mine. I simply could not choose between them.
Tapiola is another favorite that deserves all the praise it can get, but I like it less than the afore mentioned works. I would probably pick it next after those three favorites, but Sibelius' orchestral oeuvre is so strong and diverse that it seems almost silly of me to even pick any favorites at all.
Quote from: orfeo on September 20, 2014, 05:09:36 PM
That's the one I bought only 2 months ago! From Presto Classical, although I wouldn't be surprised if it could still be obtained elsewhere as well.
I wouldn't mind owning the whole
Sibelius Edition from BIS. Maybe one day!
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2014, 01:18:06 PM
Well, one can't be expected to remember them all. 8)
Barden is a gem too, for sure.
Just bought this for 5p + postage on Amazon UK:
[asin]B00005NKRI[/asin]
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2014, 04:54:43 AM
BIS...they just did a Vanska/Lahti Sibelius album that had been half-released already...
Are you referring to this one?[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
I have been meaning to ask if this is a new recording of the Wood-Nymph.
I probably mentioned this before, but this is currently the complete extent of my Sibelius collection:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AP9WJHSPL.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EBauOZE6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BuiwRIwVL._SL500_.jpg) + (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S-%2BTEslXL.jpg) (as download, haven't listened to the whole thing yet)
I'm not currently planning to buy any more, but a discussion on another board piqued my interest, so I'm curious as to what people's favourite recordings are of each of the symphonies, and why. (also what complete sets are generally recommended, etc—the most frequent recommendation there was Vänskä/Lahti) Also curious as to what the chamber music is like.
I am not an expert (neither a great fan), but the chamber music seems not so important to me, except for the "voces intimae" string quartet. There are 2? or so more early quartets and a pleasant piano quintet (also early, written around 1890). I doubt that even Sibelians would consider these early pieces important.
Quote from: Wanderer on September 24, 2014, 10:00:35 PM
Are you referring to this one?[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
I have been meaning to ask if this is a new recording of the Wood-Nymph.
That's the one I bought recently. Some of it has indeed been released before - The Wood-Nymph, Swan of Tuonela and Lemminkainen's Return, recorded in 2006, were all on a disc called 'Sound of Sibelius' apparently. The other 2 legends were recorded in 2007 but not released - Lord knows why. Perhaps the plan was always to bring them back together.
The disc does say the previously released recordings have been remastered.
Quote from: amw on September 24, 2014, 11:19:08 PM
I'm not currently planning to buy any more, but a discussion on another board piqued my interest, so I'm curious as to what people's favourite recordings are of each of the symphonies, and why. (also what complete sets are generally recommended
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam, Vienna/Maazel, Lahti/Vänskä
Symphony 2: Vienna/Bernstein, Cleveland/Szell, Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy, Pittsburgh/Maazel, Davis/LSO
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel, Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein, Bournemouth/Berglund, Philharmonia/Rattle
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis, Pittsburgh/Maazel
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
Kullervo: LSO/Davis (RCA)
Why? My first choices tend to be grandly Romantic readings, sometimes very slow, sometimes over-the-top emotionally (Bernstein's Second) and dangerously electrifying (Segerstam's First). The exceptions are the Davis Sixth, which is fleet and classically restrained, almost likes he's playing Mozart, and Maazel Fourth, the "Liquid Nitrogen", all icy doom. My alternatives tend to be faster, leaner readings or, in the case of Maazel's Pittsburgh Sixth, opulent and broad.
Complete sets, I have 19. Ones I'd refuse to part with: Maazel/Vienna, Maazel/Pittsburgh, Davis/Boston, Berglund/Bournemouth, Bernstein/New York, Segerstam/Helsinki, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia. But not all those are "generally recommended" in this forum ;)
Sarge
Nice to see that Maazel/Pbgh set so well represented in there, Sarge!
Quote from: Wanderer on September 24, 2014, 10:00:35 PM
I have been meaning to ask if this is a new recording of the Wood-Nymph.
According to the notes, Wood-Nymph was previously released on BIS CD 1645. (http://www.bis.se/images/covers/BIS-SACD-1645_72_150.jpg)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2014, 06:52:35 AM
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam, Vienna/Maazel, Lahti/Vänskä
Symphony 2: Vienna/Bernstein, Cleveland/Szell, Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy, Pittsburgh/Maazel, Davis/LSO
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel, Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein, Bournemouth/Berglund, Philharmonia/Rattle
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis, Pittsburgh/Maazel
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
Kullervo: LSO/Davis (RCA)
Complete sets, I have 19. Ones I'd refuse to part with: Maazel/Vienna, Maazel/Pittsburgh, Davis/Boston, Berglund/Bournemouth, Bernstein/New York, Segerstam/Helsinki, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia. But not all those are "generally recommended" in this forum ;)
Man, that's like Sibelius heaven there, Sarge. :)
Interestingly, of the complete sets on your list the only common ground between you and I is the Ashkenazy. I, too, love it but am aware at least one prominent Sibeliusaur hates it. Too "hot" for him. But for me anyway I love the "hotness".
After Ashkenazy my complete sets are Blomstedt, Barbirolli, and Vänskä. Keepers, all. In fact, Barbirolli's fifth symphony might just be the one single performance that I'd rate as my favorite Sibelius performance of all, despite the idiosyncrasies of his cycle as a whole (a general slowness).
I used to have a Maazel/Pittsburgh disc with the second and sixth symphonies and very much enjoyed it (accidentally culled). Their cycle is forever on my radar.
Berglund/Bournemouth is good in the fifth I have although I'm more a fan of the these forces with Ida Haendel in the violin concerto (though the fact that the VC is MUCH better sonically could play a part in this perception).
Unfortunately I had problems with Segerstam/Helsinki in the fourth. With all the glowing accolades heaped on this performance I felt there shouldn't be any reason in the world to dislike it but try as I might I couldn't make any headway. I let out a big sigh and eventually gave it up.
Overall though I can't say as I'm disappointed in any of the cycles I have. Vänskä is definitely the one I reach for most, though. So it gets my vote as the "go-to".
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 25, 2014, 10:49:32 AM
Man, that's like Sibelius heaven there, Sarge. :)
Interestingly, of the complete sets on your list the only common ground between you and I is the Ashkenazy. I, too, love it but am aware at least one prominent Sibeliusaur hates it. Too "hot" for him. But for me anyway I love the "hotness".
After Ashkenazy my complete sets are Blomstedt, Barbirolli, and Vänskä. Keepers, all. In fact, Barbirolli's fifth symphony might just be the one single performance that I'd rate as my favorite Sibelius performance of all, despite the idiosyncrasies of his cycle as a whole (a general slowness).
I used to have a Maazel/Pittsburgh disc with the second and sixth symphonies and very much enjoyed it (accidentally culled). Their cycle is forever on my radar.
Berglund/Bournemouth is good in the fifth I have although I'm more a fan of the these forces with Ida Haendel in the violin concerto (though the fact that the VC is MUCH better sonically could play a part it this perception).
Unfortunately I had problems with Segerstam/Helsinki in the fourth. With all the glowing accolades heaped on this performance I felt there shouldn't be any reason in the world to dislike it but try as I might I couldn't make any headway. I let out a big sigh and eventually gave it up.
Overall though I can't say as I'm disappointed in any of the cycles I have. Vänskä is definitely the one I reach for most, though. So it gets my vote as the "go-to".
Sargent's Sibelius 5 is my favourite along with Beecham's No. 4.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2014, 06:52:35 AM
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam, Vienna/Maazel, Lahti/Vänskä
Symphony 2: Vienna/Bernstein, Cleveland/Szell, Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy, Pittsburgh/Maazel, Davis/LSO
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel, Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein, Bournemouth/Berglund, Philharmonia/Rattle
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis, Pittsburgh/Maazel
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
Kullervo: LSO/Davis (RCA)
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 2: New York/Bernstein, RPO(?)/Barbirolli
Symphony 3: Helsinki/Segerstam, LSO/Davis (live, not RCA), Helsinki/Mustonen
Symphony 4: not sure
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein, New York/Bernstein, New York/Bernstein
Symphony 6: LSO/Davis (live, not RCA), Pittsburgh/Maazel
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
I really like Ashkenazy most of the time. Blomstedt is great throughout, and has no weak links. The best of the three Naxos cycles is Sakari, which features a surprisingly great Fifth and Seventh; Inkinen is good in 2, 3, and 7 but disastrous elsewhere. Segerstam and Mustonen are polar opposites in #3 (romantic vs. neo-classical), with Davis in the middle ground. I am not nearly as keen on Vanska as many other people; his violin concerto with Kavakos, especially, annoys the crap out of me.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
Sargent's Sibelius 5 is my favourite along with Beecham's No. 4.
I need to check those two out. Hopefully
AdTube YouTube will have them.
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2014, 11:25:11 AM
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein, New York/Bernstein, New York/Bernstein
Studio, live, and bootleg? Or is this a single performance/triple the pleasure type of thing?
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 25, 2014, 11:30:19 AM
I need to check those two out. Hopefully AdTube YouTube will have them.
[asin]B00KMHV66I[/asin]
[asin]B00008ZZ2F[/asin]
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2014, 06:52:35 AM
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2014, 11:25:11 AM
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel, New Zealand/Inkinen, Helsinki/Segerstam
8) 8) 8)
Sarge
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
Sargent's Sibelius 5 is my favourite along with Beecham's No. 4.
I haven't heard those...maybe that's where the Sibelian Holy Grail resides ;)
Sarge
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 25, 2014, 11:50:47 AM
Studio, live, and bootleg? Or is this a single performance/triple the pleasure type of thing?
Well, the truth is that my top three is actually
New York/Bernstein, San Francisco/Blomstedt, Iceland/Sakari (hon. mention for Lahti/Vanska)
but the Columbia Lenny recording is my platonic ideal and unbeatable, so I planted tongue in cheek and listed it thrice. :)
Oh, Pittsburgh/Maazel is great in #3 as well.
Let me ask you Sibelians some questions regarding an incomplete cycle: what you think of HvK's partial cycle on EMI? I already own his DG partial cycle and love it but was wondering how his earlier performances fare and how is the audio quality of those recordings? Thanks in advance.
Quote from: orfeo on September 25, 2014, 03:44:59 AM
That's the one I bought recently. Some of it has indeed been released before - The Wood-Nymph, Swan of Tuonela and Lemminkainen's Return, recorded in 2006, were all on a disc called 'Sound of Sibelius' apparently. The other 2 legends were recorded in 2007 but not released - Lord knows why. Perhaps the plan was always to bring them back together.
The disc does say the previously released recordings have been remastered.
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2014, 08:12:34 AM
According to the notes, Wood-Nymph was previously released on BIS CD 1645. (http://www.bis.se/images/covers/BIS-SACD-1645_72_150.jpg)
Already part of the Sibelius Edition, then. An excellent rendition. Thanks!
In all the tone-poem talk earlier I forgot all about Hans Rosbaud's wonderful disc with the Berlin Philharmonic. It's mono but sonically it's not at all on the emaciated side.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416uLGk0YyL.jpg)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 26, 2014, 04:37:33 PM
In all the tone-poem talk earlier I forgot all about Hans Rosbaud's wonderful disc with the Berlin Philharmonic. It's mono but sonically it's not at all on the emaciated side.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416uLGk0YyL.jpg)
Yes, great performance of Tapiola.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2014, 11:00:59 PM
Just bought this for 5p + postage on Amazon UK:
[asin]B00005NKRI[/asin]
This is the best performance I know of the Four Legends - an intensely poetic performance which made me realise how great this work is. Up until now Thomas Jensen's Danish RSO version was my favourite, for its intense atmosphere but the Colin Davis version has the same intensity but a far more modern recording. I am not a great fan of Colin Davis but this is undoubtedly a great performance.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 04, 2014, 10:29:45 AM
This is the best performance I know of the Four Legends - an intensely poetic performance which made me realise how great this work is. Up until now Thomas Jensen's Danish RSO version was my favourite, for its intense atmosphere but the Colin Davis version has the same intensity but a far more modern recording. I am not a great fan of Colin Davis but this is undoubtedly a great performance.
Are you familiar with the Segerstam/Helsinki PO performance, Jeffrey? This is my go-to
Lemminkäinen.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2014, 05:31:51 AM
Are you familiar with the Segerstam/Helsinki PO performance, Jeffrey? This is my go-to Lemminkäinen.
Oddly enough John I was playing that today. It is terrific too, although I prefer the Swan coming second. The accompanying Tapiola is possibly the greatest version of that great work.
Sibelius's complete Tempest music (BIS) has been an absolute revelation to me. I am especially moved by the 'Prospero' theme that I don't recall from either of the suites (from c. 1.35 mins into the extract below):
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLHtjlre01E
[asin]B000027E3T[/asin]
I love this photo of Sibelius! :)
(http://38.media.tumblr.com/62757c85583c38696ac5d213f7799ec5/tumblr_ndx6ofpJNZ1t06hqzo1_500.jpg)
Yes, it's terrific. Never seen it before.
Fell in love with nightride and sunrise again, not monotonic at all, what the hell was I thinking.
Possibly my very favorite among the tone-poems.
Referring to one of my earlier posts about how Sibelius never composed tone poem about Sampo in Kalevala: in the beginning of 20s he made some sketches titled "The forging of the Sampo". I would really like to see that melody he wrote next to that title, even though it was possibly far from how it would have appeared had he ever actually composed it. He mentioned that he was intrigued by how you never actually know what Sampo is and how the forging should be played pianissimo, like from very far away. I usually think Pohjola's daughter tone poem as equivalent to Sampo, the music makes me think as much of Sampo and its grinding of riches as of Väinämöinen wooing Pohjola's daughter. That tone poem of course was composed around 15 years before remarking anything about Sampo project and it certainly isn't pianissimo all the time.
GOOD OLD WOOD NYMPH DRAGS ME FULLY BACK TO CLASSICAL MODE
Hey guys, as a consumer, I am currently in a heavy Radiohead mode, also back to my old love IDM. Just a few classical music this whole year. Now I incidentally saw this recording of the Wood Nymph and immediately bought from eclassical. Because every nymph has to be bought. Will have to listen closely to what the differences are in the critical? edition...
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h9689/4839689-origpic-6b7e8a.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg) (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/sibelius-lemminkainen-suite-the-wood-nymph.html)
In the end, I'll probably listen to the one and only recording. I'm not searching in the nymph department. Because the very first one, also Vänskä/Lahti, already is perfect to my ears. Oh, how I love this piece; all the good feelings are back. That power and drama.
(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h6857/4906857-origpic-9c2b09.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg) (http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/sibelius-the-wood-nymph-1.html)
After Tapiola, Wood Nymph is by far my favourite Sibelius piece of music. And its really time to give Lemminkainen a closer listen.
I just noticed how much Sibelius's Andante Festivo sounds like Liszt's Les Preludes. And not just Andante festivo, some of the melodies in 1st and 2nd symphony, as well! Probably much more examples as well.
The stronger the roots, the taller the tree.
Just curious Karl: when you said that nightride and sunrise is possibly your favorite tone poem, did you mean of all the tone poems you've heard or merely by Sibelius?
Excellent work no doubt and among my very favorites. It is very difficult to me to say just one work, though.
I meant of Sibelius. It's something of a sentimental favorite, I still remember my first listen of Segerstam/Helsinki bowling me over with this 'un:
[asin]B00000DMKY[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on November 24, 2014, 07:37:41 AM
I meant of Sibelius. It's something of a sentimental favorite, I still remember my first listen of Segerstam/Helsinki bowling me over with this 'un:
[asin]B00000DMKY[/asin]
It's certainly a fine recording and a favorite of mine as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 24, 2014, 11:33:49 AM
It's certainly a fine recording and a favorite of mine as well.
+1
Well, as it happens I'm about to listen to Night Ride and Sunrise for the very first time. Not that recording though. Vanska.
I've not heard that one, but I have confidence.
Well, without having a comparator, I'm impressed.
Very, very Sibelian.
One of the first reviews about this tone poem for some reason amuses me even though I disagree with it. I don't have the official translation so I'll try translating it myself from how I read it in finnish:
"It is difficult to understand who is riding and where and for what reason."
Quote from: Alberich on November 28, 2014, 08:15:17 AM
"It is difficult to understand who is riding and where and for what reason."
This is up to the listener of course. Does anyone know what Sibelius thought about it or what kind of program (if any) that's attached to it?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 28, 2014, 07:27:21 PM
This is up to the listener of course. Does anyone know what Sibelius thought about it or what kind of program (if any) that's attached to it?
Well, the material I was reading the other day seemed to indicate that this
wasn't a piece with a specific mythological inspiration or specified program, unlike many of Sibelius' other works.
Quote"Night ride and sunrise. On horseback from Suojärvi to Värtsilä through the moonlit forest."
This is how conductor Jussi Jalas wrote in his noteslip in July 1942 Sibelius' revelation of the programmatic roots of his tone poem that received it's premiere in 1909. Sibelius had ridden to Värtsilä in the summer of 1892 on his travels collecting poetry in Karelia. The nocturnal mood had infested his subconscious for a long while. The ride from Suojärvi to Värtsilä would have been extremely long, though, and researcher Markku Hartikainen has suggested that Sibelius might have actually ridden from Soanlahti to Värtsilä.
There might have been other sources of inspiration, as well. Sibelius sketched the themes of the composition already in Rome in the spring of 1901, according to his recollections after seeing the Coliseum in the moonlight. Sibelius' secretary Santeri Levas thought that the composition was also related to a nightly horse ride from Kerava to Helsinki in the turn of the century. Sibelius reminisced in 1953 that the sunrise during that ride was sublime, with the sky bathing in colours.
Most important could be the idea the composer pointed out to Rosa Newmarch. According to Sibelius, music concerns 'the internal sensations of a regular human being while riding alone through a dusky forest, altering between states of happiness about being alone in the nature, and frightened by the silence or sounds breaking it - not with unnecessary omens, but grateful and glad of the dawn.
http://www.sibelius.fi/suomi/musiikki/ork_oinen_ratsastus.htm
Translated by me.
BIS CEO Robert von Bahr explains why he recorded the complete Sibelius.
"It is with a feeling of immense pride and happiness that I am in the position to offer you this. Please consider the following so that you understand what Sibelius has meant to my family: My Great-great-grandfather was a cantor and luthier who actually tended to Sibelius's violin in his early years, his son was a violist, music critic (with the pen-name "bis"), who premièred several works by Sibelius and, on top of that, became Sibelius's first music publisher! His son, my Grandfather, was solo cellist in the Helsinki Phil and also premièred several works by Sibelius (and often went on drinking bouts with him), and his daughter, my Mother, being prima ballerina assoluta at the Finnish Opera, several times danced for him, incl. the Valse Triste.
"And I hereby close the circle with this Edition. So this isn't just editorial, it is also deeply personal and I am proud that the Sibelius Family has put to my disposal absolutely all material they have access to."
And RvB also explains that over at eClassical.com, each of the Big Sibelius Edition Boxes will roll out as a download version, one per month, until December 2015.
"The first Box/Bundle is here. In the Anniversary Year (150 years since he was born) of 2015 you will be treated to another Box every month up to the last one in December 2015. Pricewise this is how it goes: we will price every Box so that those who buy all 13 Boxes in the month of the release will pay together $363 for the whole thing - that is actually the same price as the Daily Deal, which means $4:50 per hour of music or half the usual price for single CDs!! Every month, at the change of Box, the previous Box will increase in price with 20% to its official listed price."
A new disc of Sibelius No 2 with Andris Nelsons conducting the Boston SO is due out tomorrow on their own label. It is a live recording from a very enthusiastically reviewed concert. Best make the best of him while he is with you Bostonians, the rumours are that Berlin would like him to follow Rattle.
As an aside, he is in a new live concert version of Wagner's Dutchman, again ecstatically reviewed.
Mike
Updated (on the website) with John Storgårds' new cycle, recorded live with the BBC Philharmonic on Chandos and the new edition of Rattle's cycle.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on January 04, 2013, 08:38:07 AM
Of course not. Not need. Wantz! With 18 cycles, you've shown a history of zero ability to resist a temptation... so that's a pretty good indication you'll get this one, too. Which ones do you not have, in any case? ;)
I've updated for the Berglund below...
Better viewed her: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
- - - -
Survey of Sibelius Symphony CyclesTime to update: New version of Maazel II, first boxed CD incidence of Davis I.
The spot freed up by the formerly necessary second volume of Davis is taken by Sixtus Ehrling's Stockholm cycle that had not been included previously.
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| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GiQiFqadL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | *V. Ashkenazy I,
Philharmonia
Decca ~$40,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hY7ajufkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | C. Davis I,
Boston SO
Decca ~$25,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007CW2FFM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CAP78YVWL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Gibson,
Royal ScO
Chandos (oop) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000A9D/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513gkv4W8EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | L. Segerstam I,
Danish NSO
Chandos/Brilliant ~$46,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0010SU4UW/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V3F35G0BL._SL500_AA132_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Jaervi I,
Gothenburg SO
BIS ~$62,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016JY/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5185H-P2E4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | A. Collins,
LSO
Decca (Japan) ~$44,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ACXcbxwSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel II,
Pittsburg SO
Sony ~$25,-
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004H6P2O2/goodmusicguide-20) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8447B7VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Segerstam II,
Helsinki PO
Ondine ~$54,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQNVSU/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51USmBPt2DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | S. Ehrling,
Royal Stockholm PO
Finlandia $50,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/goodmusicguide-21) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HRVE76QBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | H.v. Karajan / Kamu,
Berlin Phil
DG ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008CLIG/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KWV2RBDQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/nectarandambr-20) | *L. Bernstein,
NY Phil
Sony ~$50,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008PW43/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/7/9736002.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund I,
Bournemouth SO
EMI (back in print!) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0091JQH2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MGV75JENL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | J.P. Saraste,
Finnish RSO
Finlandia (oop) ~$60,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009L6O/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003GT37LG.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003GT37LG/goodmusicguide-20) | G. Rozhdestvensky,
Moscow RSO
Melodyi. ~$45,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517) |
|
| (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212K0QHVRAL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | *O. Vanska,
Lahti SO
BIS ~$65,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q450/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qB4N9j12L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | *L. Maazel I,
Vienna Phil.
Decca ~$24,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041Z3/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YBXARJNCL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | *K. Sanderling,
Berlin
Berlin Cl. ~$33,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000035OJ/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414Y1JM39XL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | *Sir J. Barbirolli,
Hallé Orchestra
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003ZKRM/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NQ1JMEBEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | P. Berglund II,
Helsinki PO
EMI ~$35,- (sale) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIZT/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B002LTJ30G.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LTJ30G/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis III,
LSO v.1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001HK2AK/nectarandambr-20)-v.2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00026KGX8/goodmusicguide-20)-v.3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000O78IWQ/nectarandambr-20)-v.4 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001IC59JG/nectarandambr-20)
LSO live (4 à ~$16,-) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4127TXBJV9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) | S. Oramo,
CoBirm.O
Erato ~£30,-
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000SYABW/nectarandambr-21) |
|
| (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000FOQ1EA.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | *H. Blomstedt,
S.F.SO
Decca ~$31,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FOQ1EA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | *P. Sakari,
Iceland SO
Naxos ~$36,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xDPCRN07L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | N. Järvi II,
Gothenburg SO
DG ~$56,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000SSPL2Q/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOXxcZpHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | *S. Rattle,
Birmingh.SO
EMI ~$34,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000UPQFEA/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TE3rEBl%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | *P. Berglund III,
Chamber OoE
Finlandia ~$40,-
(Germany only) (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002472T/nectarandambr-21) | | (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00011KOF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | *C. Davis II,
LSO
RCA ~$41,- (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00011KOF4/goodmusicguide-20) | | (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/25/4/0/725.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) | A. Watanabe,
Japan PhilO
(Japan only)
Denon ~$31,- (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2540725) |
|
Quote from: jlaurson on December 02, 2014, 08:03:18 AM
Updated (on the website) with John Storgårds' new cycle, recorded live with the BBC Philharmonic on Chandos and the new edition of Rattle's cycle.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Love your survey/compilation of Sibelius cycles! Thank you for all the work! (http://www.giraffeboards.com/images/smilies/thumbs_up_smiley.gif)
Quote from: Moonfish on December 02, 2014, 09:15:06 AM
Love your survey/compilation of Sibelius cycles! Thank you for all the work! (http://www.giraffeboards.com/images/smilies/thumbs_up_smiley.gif)
Thanks kindly! Much appreciated and gratifying to hear that it's being thought of as useful.
Are any of Sibelius's symphonic poems (outside of Finlandia, Swan of Tuonela and Tapiola) part of standard repertoire in other countries? It probably depends on the country, I've read Jean wasn't that well liked in German-speaking countries opposed to more favorable reception in english ones. And that one french dude even called Sibelius the worst composer in the world. Sorry for being ignorant, I've heard very different opinions about Sibelius abroad, I know many foreign classical music fans who barely even know who the guy is, but also many who think of him as one of the greatest composers ever. Of course every composer has its critics but are his works (Symphonies, symphonic poems, Violin concerto, Tempest, maybe even Voces intimae etc.) , generally speaking, well known/liked in Europe or USA for ex.? Hell, in Finland many people can't say any works from him outside of Finlandia, Valse triste, violin concerto and The Swan of Tuonela.
I think we might see Pohjola's Daughter more than Finlandia in the USA...maybe. But he is not especially popular overall: probably, in order, Second Symphony, Violin Concerto, First Symphony, a short work like PD or Valse triste, and very rarely you will see Symphony 5 or 7, but that's all, except in the largest and most adventurous American symphonies.
I have seen Nos. 1, 5, and 7 live in Texas, but personally haven't seen any tone poems live here.
Thank you for answering! Shame no love shown to other symphonic poems or 4th symphony which IIRC Tawastjerna thinks is his supreme masterpiece. Of course, whether or not composition is masterpiece or not, does not necessarily mean that it is performed frequently and known by everyone.
I've heard the BSO play The Bard and the Third Symphony in Symphony Hall.
Currently, I think Bard is that one symphonic poem by Sibelius that I don't really love. It may be I haven't heard it enough times. Dryad is very nice, though.
Am enjoying the Ehrling cycle.
Quote from: Alberich on December 03, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
Currently, I think Bard is that one symphonic poem by Sibelius that I don't really love. It may be I haven't heard it enough times. Dryad is very nice, though.
It is a bit of an oddly uneventful piece; but that's partly why I like it. Sibelius is very good at music that doesn't do quite what you expect it to.
Yes, I'm very appreciative for what Jens has done for ol' Jean. Great and informative survey. Keep up the good work my man!
Quote from: Alberich on December 03, 2014, 07:20:43 AM
Are any of Sibelius's symphonic poems (outside of Finlandia, Swan of Tuonela and Tapiola) part of standard repertoire in other countries? It probably depends on the country, I've read Jean wasn't that well liked in German-speaking countries opposed to more favorable reception in english ones. And that one french dude even called Sibelius the worst composer in the world. Sorry for being ignorant, I've heard very different opinions about Sibelius abroad, I know many foreign classical music fans who barely even know who the guy is, but also many who think of him as one of the greatest composers ever. Of course every composer has its critics but are his works (Symphonies, symphonic poems, Violin concerto, Tempest, maybe even Voces intimae etc.) , generally speaking, well known/liked in Europe or USA for ex.? Hell, in Finland many people can't say any works from him outside of Finlandia, Valse triste, violin concerto and The Swan of Tuonela.
Outside the nordic and anglophone countries, Sibelius has taken a considerable dive since WWII. Not all the blame goes to Adorno & René Leibowitz ("Sibelius, le plus mauvais compositeur du monde"), but some.
(http://www.auction-in-europe.com/aie-datas/photos/_3/df35fc9e3d295dfe789f023c0d42a18a.jpg)
That's incredibly unfortunate, not because he had actually been a much-played superstar in pre-war Germany, but because continental audiences are being denied (or are denying themselves) the work of one of the best symphonists. Never mind the tone poems... even the symphonies are rarely played and often badly, when at all. Only the violin concerto and maybe symphony no.2 have more than a toe in the repertoire.
The challenge of catching up with a malicious rumor . . . .
Quote from: Brian on December 03, 2014, 07:51:19 AM
But he is not especially popular overall: probably, in order, Second Symphony, Violin Concerto, First Symphony ...
This pretty much mirrors my experience. Here's what Sibelius Belgrade Philharmonic played over last 12 seasons:
2003/04 Symphony No.6 (Dorian Wilson), Violin Concerto (Ilya Gringoltz, Andres Orosco-Estrada)
2004/05 /
2005/06 /
2006/07 /
2007/08 Symphony No.2 (Peter Leonard)
2008/09 /
2009/10 Violin Concerto (Hagai Shaham, Uros Lajovic), Lemminkainen Legends (Fabrice Bollon), Tapiola (Jaakko Kuusisto), Symphony No.5 (Ronald Zollman), Symphony No.1 (Uros Lajovic)
2010/11 /
2011/12 /
2012/13 Finlandia, Symphony No.1 (Vladimir Kulenovic), Violin Concerto (Siao Ming Vang (sp?), Muhai Tang), Symphony No.2 (Daniel Raiskin)
2013/14 Karelia, Symphony No.5 (Kristiina Poska)
2014/15 Symphony No.2 (Muhai Tang)
Three programmings for VC and 2nd Symphony (they even toured with 2nd), two for 1st & 5th, what else is played once. In brackets are conductors and violinists.
So I got ALL the Gibson Sibelius Tone Poems on Chandos, which includes the 'Tone Poems' proper, the 2CD set with
En Saga............................not sure this is something for me, eh...
Luonnatar
Finlandia
Spring Song
The Bard
The Dryad
Pohjola's Daughter.............I'm not sure I like the next two pieces...
Night Ride and Sunrise
Tapiola..............................I responded better to this than I have in the past
and the two discs including:
Lemminkainen and the Maidens of Saari
The Swan of Tuonela.......................................the two inner movements are quite dark, but the whole thing is wonderful.
Lemminkainen in Tuonela
Lemminkainen's Homeward Journey
Scenes Historiques 1-2............altogether a quite light, yet extremely good Sibelius recital.
Rakastava...............................like this one
Valse Lyrique
and then Jarvi with Andante Festivo.......ahhhhhhh....
What are some other non-Symphony Sibelius I'd like? I don't know if Swanwhite/King Christian will put me to sleep?
Quote from: snyprrr on January 17, 2015, 10:31:51 PM
So I got ALL the Gibson Sibelius Tone Poems on Chandos, which includes the 'Tone Poems' proper, the 2CD set with
En Saga............................not sure this is something for me, eh...
Luonnatar
Finlandia
Spring Song
The Bard
The Dryad
Pohjola's Daughter.............I'm not sure I like the next two pieces...
Night Ride and Sunrise
Tapiola..............................I responded better to this than I have in the past
and the two discs including:
Lemminkainen and the Maidens of Saari
The Swan of Tuonela.......................................the two inner movements are quite dark, but the whole thing is wonderful.
Lemminkainen in Tuonela
Lemminkainen's Homeward Journey
Scenes Historiques 1-2............altogether a quite light, yet extremely good Sibelius recital.
Rakastava...............................like this one
Valse Lyrique
and then Jarvi with Andante Festivo.......ahhhhhhh....
What are some other non-Symphony Sibelius I'd like? I don't know if Swanwhite/King Christian will put me to sleep?
Try the complete Karelia music - a revelation to me, recommended by a friend. I prefer the Ondine CD to the BIS but they are both cheap on UK Amazon and both excellent:
[asin]B0007IP5OG[/asin]
PS it is certainly not cheap on US Amazon, so don't follow the link with the photo. :o
It is available second hand at under £4.00 on the UK site.
Here is the BIS:
[asin]B0000267FX[/asin]
Sibelius: Violin Concerto Wicks/The SO of Radio Stockholm/Ehrling
I came across a reference to Camilla Wicks a few months ago, heard her Sibelius VC on YouTube and realized that I really wanted this recording. I find her Sibelius performance magnificent! Camilla Wicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camilla_Wicks) plays like a goddess! The first movement is truly magical! Hahn used to be my top choice here, but I am afraid that Wicks' passionate playing wins me over! I wish she recorded many more of the "famous" violin concertos......
I understand that Ehrling's recordings of the symphonies are well regarded but OOP. :'( Do you think they ever will be re-issued?
[asin] B007TB4766[/asin]
Camilla Wicks with Bruno Walter:
(http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1160.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/v/oEEStY8gBco
Sibelius: Symphonies Nos 1 and 4 WP/Maazel
Do you have a preference for Maazel's WP cycle over the one with the Pittsburgh SO?
from
[asin] B0000041Z3[/asin]
Quote from: Moonfish on January 21, 2015, 02:25:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/oEEStY8gBco
That sounds very nice! It's a great concerto, for sure.
I'm fond of Ida Haendel's recording licensed from EMI in a superior transfer below.
Haendel literally gobbles the work whole:
[asin]B000058UTF[/asin]
In this transfer (as opposed to the EMI) you can really hear what the orchestra is up to, which is obviously a plus. And the sonics overall make a statement! Fine, fine recorded sound...from 1976! Here's the cover from the above Amazon link. Click to super-enlarge:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CtvR3CH%2BL._SL1414_.jpg)
One thing I like about Haendel as opposed to Wicks is - from the sound of it - Wicks likes to slide into a note whereas Haendel hits it squarely. Both approaches have their merits, obviously.
On this German Amazon page (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Violinkonzert-Serenaden-Ida-Haendel/dp/B0000658QC/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_1)are samples from all three movements from Haendel's recording (from the EMI, alas, which doesn't do justice to the orchestra) but the track samples are mislabeled: the first three samples are all from the VC.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 23, 2015, 07:09:47 PM
That sounds very nice! It's a great concerto, for sure.
I'm fond of Ida Haendel's recording licensed from EMI in a superior transfer below.
Haendel literally gobbles the work whole:
In this transfer (as opposed to the EMI) you can really hear what the orchestra is up to, which is obviously a plus. And the sonics overall make a statement! Fine, fine recorded sound...from 1976! Here's the cover from the above Amazon link. Click to super-enlarge:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CtvR3CH%2BL._SL1414_.jpg)
One thing I like about Haendel as opposed to Wicks is - from the sound of it - Wicks likes to slide into a note whereas Haendel hits it squarely. Both approaches have their merits, obviously.
On this German Amazon page (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Violinkonzert-Serenaden-Ida-Haendel/dp/B0000658QC/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_1)are samples from all three movements from Haendel's recording (from the EMI, alas, which doesn't do justice to the orchestra) but the track samples are mislabeled: the first three samples are all from the VC.
Thanks DD! I haven't heard Haendel performing Sibelius although I was quite impressed the other week with her rendition of Elgar's VC. I understand your point about "sliding" versus "hitting" the notes. Perhaps I am a "slider" by nature? ::) :P I definitely need to listen to Haendel's Sibelius!!!
Quote from: Moonfish on January 24, 2015, 10:49:33 AM
Thanks DD! I haven't heard Haendel performing Sibelius although I was quite impressed the other week with her rendition of Elgar's VC. I understand your point about "sliding" versus "hitting" the notes. Perhaps I am a "slider" by nature? ::) :P I definitely need to listen to Haendel's Sibelius!!!
;D "Sliders" aren't looked on too kindly by us "Hitters". Be expecting a visit from my boys shortly.....
Actually I probably shouldn't make too much of the "sliding" thing. Wicks
obviously is well equipped to take on this work.
Quote from: Moonfish on January 22, 2015, 12:38:17 PM
Sibelius: Symphonies Nos 1 and 4 WP/Maazel
Do you have a preference for Maazel's WP cycle over the one with the Pittsburgh SO?
from
[asin] B0000041Z3[/asin]
On the whole, yes.
Whereas in Vienna Maazel takes a fresh, youthful, and impulsive approach, showing a tendency to attack and forge ahead, in Pittsburgh he gives us an older man's Sibelius (especially in the first two symphonies), with slower tempi and a pronounced tendency to micromanage and underline. Barbirolli could pull that sort of approach off most of the time and sound natural doing it; but when Maazel attempts this sort of thing, it all too often sounds mannered and contrived.
Maazel/ Pittsburgh emphasizes lots of small details in the music that you don't notice in his Vienna interpretations, which adds to the interest; but often (to my ears) this is at the expense of the music itself. In a way, the difference between the young Maazel and the older Maazel has some parallels with Bernstein's young and older selves: Think of the contrast between Bernstein's aggressive, extroverted Beethoven or Mahler with the NYPO in the 1960s, and his later recordings of those same works for DG in the 1980s, where things are usually significantly slower and more emotionally overblown. Or, indeed, Bernstein's energetic NYPO Sibelius from the 1960s vs. those recorded performances of symphonies 1, 2, 5, and 7 from Vienna some 20 or 25 years later.
The Pittsburgh set does benefit from richer recorded sound, with a wide dynamic range. And the set has the advantage of an excellent performance of the violin concerto.
Bottom line: Although I don't love everything in the Vienna set equally--Maazel seems to skim the surface in symphonies 5 & 6 there--I am happy to listen to most of those recordings again and again. By contrast, there are things in the Pittsburgh set that are worth hearing once and that will make you sit up and take notice and say to yourself,
Hmm, that's different; but, having heard them once, I'm not in a hurry to listen to them again.
Any thoughts on Goss' Sibelius biography? Has anybody here read it by any chance?
Found a mixed review in THE. (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/books/sibelius-a-composers-life-and-the-awakening-of-finland/409846.article)
[asin] 022600547X[/asin]
Quote from: jfdrex on January 27, 2015, 02:04:02 PM
On the whole, yes.
Whereas in Vienna Maazel takes a fresh, youthful, and impulsive approach, showing a tendency to attack and forge ahead, in Pittsburgh he gives us an older man's Sibelius (especially in the first two symphonies), with slower tempi and a pronounced tendency to micromanage and underline. Barbirolli could pull that sort of approach off most of the time and sound natural doing it; but when Maazel attempts this sort of thing, it all too often sounds mannered and contrived.
Maazel/ Pittsburgh emphasizes lots of small details in the music that you don't notice in his Vienna interpretations, which adds to the interest; but often (to my ears) this is at the expense of the music itself. In a way, the difference between the young Maazel and the older Maazel has some parallels with Bernstein's young and older selves: Think of the contrast between Bernstein's aggressive, extroverted Beethoven or Mahler with the NYPO in the 1960s, and his later recordings of those same works for DG in the 1980s, where things are usually significantly slower and more emotionally overblown. Or, indeed, Bernstein's energetic NYPO Sibelius from the 1960s vs. those recorded performances of symphonies 1, 2, 5, and 7 from Vienna some 20 or 25 years later.
The Pittsburgh set does benefit from richer recorded sound, with a wide dynamic range. And the set has the advantage of an excellent performance of the violin concerto.
Bottom line: Although I don't love everything in the Vienna set equally--Maazel seems to skim the surface in symphonies 5 & 6 there--I am happy to listen to most of those recordings again and again. By contrast, there are things in the Pittsburgh set that are worth hearing once and that will make you sit up and take notice and say to yourself, Hmm, that's different; but, having heard them once, I'm not in a hurry to listen to them again.
Thanks Jdfrex! A very thoughtful and comprehensive comparison. I certainly have plenty of food for thought. Interesting aspects of the slower detailed Pittsburgh cycle. Perhaps these detailed interpretations (although not listened to very often) provides a new perspective as one listens to the faster more compressed performances. I will certainly pay more attention after reading your impressions.
Do you think that BIS's Sibelius edition will be issued as a larger complete set in the near future (2015-16)? I am considering jumping into some of these releases/volumes, but hesitate in the anticipation of a major set.
http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/bis_sibelius-edition.php (http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/bis_sibelius-edition.php)
(http://www.bis.se/images/bis_pages/bgr-2.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on January 28, 2015, 07:42:36 AM
Do you think that BIS's Sibelius edition will be issued as a larger complete set in the near future (2015-16)? I am considering jumping into some of these releases/volumes, but hesitate in the anticipation of a major set.
I'd guess there won't be a single release combining them all. Of course, this
is the 150th anniversary year for
Sibelius, but it doesn't seem like something BIS would do.
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2015, 08:35:56 AM
I'd guess there won't be a single release combining them all. Of course, this is the 150th anniversary year for Sibelius, but it doesn't seem like something BIS would do.
You have to excuse me. I am still drooling over the BIS Sibelius Edition... :P
Nice write-up for volumes 1-5 at Musicweb! (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Feb09/Sibelius_Edition_BIS_I-V.htm)
Sibelius:
Spring Song Op 16
Lemminkäinen Suite Op 22
Romance Op 42
The Dryad Op 45.1
Dance Intermezzo Op 45.2
Pan and Echo Op 53a
Royal Liverpool PO/Groves
Ah, I had such a great morning with these tone poems. Grove's renditions surprised me with the mystery and warm sound (I expected worse). Interestingly, I was fascinated by Sibelius's early Spring Song which I never had heard before.
I am trying to revisit the symphonies at the same time as I wish to explore Sibelius's more unknown works. Not surprisingly I am quite interested in the BIS Sibelius Edition that I so far have avoided due to the relatively high cost (I guess it is not that bad per cd, but still). What are some early works worth pondering/experiencing?
*I think I am coming down with a combined Elgar/Sibelius "bug" that will ultimately become chronic.....*
cd 1 from:
[asin] B0000CGP1U[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IT4H6oyzL.jpg)
Moonfish,
1. I haven't heard Maazel in Vienna, but the Pittsburgh cycle is wonderful, for many reasons outlined above. I'd like to say that 3 and 6 are particular favorites, against all the stiff competition. There are some excellent fillers too, and the cycle is available for around $15. I'd say it is a "different" Sibelius vision from the mainstream, but in the opposite direction from Maazel/Vienna. Very interesting that one conductor can do such different things.
2. The BIS box sets are meant to form the complete set together! That's why when you collect them all, the spines form a new artwork.
I pound the table for the Maazel/Pbgh set.
Maazel's Pittsburgh set certainly has more than its share of detractors.
For example... James Leonard is utterly scathing: Whatever comprehension Maazel once had has turned to disdain: his conducting almost completely lacks any sense of forward momentum whatsoever and his performances are among the most torpid and turgid ever recorded. Whatever compassion Maazel once had has turned to dismissal: his capricious disregard of balances and tempos, his finicky fiddling with phasing and dynamics, his blithe indifference to the letter and the spirit of the scores bespeaks a conductor who thinks himself better than the music he conducts.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/sibelius-orchestral-works-limited-edition-box-set-mw0001385059 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/sibelius-orchestral-works-limited-edition-box-set-mw0001385059)
Not to be outdone in his scorn for this set, "The Man in the Hathaway Shirt" (on Amazon) opines: Chronic and severe constipation. That's the only reason I can imagine that Maazel conducted Sibelius like this with the Pittsburgh Symphony... The present issue has glorious sound--it may be the best *sounding* Sibelius cycle I've ever heard--but Maazel says nothing in this music, and he says it so slowly and de-lib-er-ate-ly... At times it almost sounds like a rehearsal with Maazel having the orchestra play slowly to illustrate a point. I'm not unsympathetic to an "objective" or "bird's eye" view of the music--indeed, I feel this is how it works best... But objective doesn't have to mean devoid of personality--listen to Boulez at his best. What I miss in the Maazel performances is any understanding of build, of structure. Phrases are unconnected. When a phrase or section returns later in the movement, it is played the same way as the first time; there is no metamorphosis--fatal in Sibelius. And the tempi are incredibly slow. Some white-hot sections of the 7th, some of the most intense music ever written, are played for the most part with underemphasized accents, moderate dynamics and a dragging, plodding feeling. There are a few great moments, but they're so far and in-between that you'll have to set your alarm to wake you just before they come. One can be "icy hot," one can even be "icy cold," but Maazel just sounds *bored,* despite having the wonderful Pittsburgh Symphony at his disposal...
And "Santa Fe Listener" is typically acerbic when he weighs in on Maazel's way with the Second Symphony in Pittsburgh: Certainly this is a dispirited (and dispiriting) Sym. #2 -- loggy, lacking in rhythmic bite, and noncommittal where it needs to be epic and heroic. I wonder why Maazel bothers to conduct works in which he basically sits on the sidelines and watches the scenery go by? ... In all, this isn't a CD any lover of Sibelian should bohter with.
I suppose I tend toward the conventional view of this set--I find it intriguing and frustrating at the same time. In symphonies 1 & 2, Maazel wanders into Celibidache Land, and you wonder if he'll ever find his way out. (But is my reaction to Maazel's interpretations here colored by my previous exposure to more surging, high-powered performances?) On the other hand, I do find this deliberate approach works much better in the later symphonies; there, for the most part, I can appreciate Maazel's detailed examinations of the scores even when this isn't my preferred way of hearing these works.
So... Those of you who are more highly disposed to this set than I am: What am I missing? And how does one account for such scathing reactions as those cited above?
Quote from: jfdrex on January 29, 2015, 08:58:54 AM
So... Those of you who are more highly disposed to this set than I am: What am I missing? And how does one account for such scathing reactions as those cited above?
Not everything is ultra slow (the Third is certainly swift and "high-powered")...but, in fact, it is the far-from-the-mainstream tempos that make this set appealing to me. I've never associated high speed with "forward momentum"...Maazel always makes it home ;) and the view along the way utterly gorgeous. Works especially well, I think, in 4, 6 and 7.
Sarge
"
Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, and 6, while still on the slow side at times, are generally excellent, and the Third may well be the finest version on disc, bar none." --Classics Today, the Hurwitzer
Quote from: jfdrex on January 29, 2015, 08:58:54 AM
And how does one account for such scathing reactions as those cited above?
Lack of sympathy for the performances under advisement, combined with an intemperate enthusiasm for giving free rein to scorn.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2015, 09:46:54 AM
Lack of sympathy for the performances under advisement, combined with an intemperate enthusiasm for giving free rein to scorn.
Yes, the latter quality certainly seems to be a common denominator among these three reviewers. (Indeed, a
spécialité de la maison for at least one of them. ;))
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2015, 09:44:07 AM
Not everything is ultra slow (the Third is certainly swift and "high-powered")...but, in fact, it is the far-from-the-mainstream tempos that make this set appealing to me. I've never associated high speed "forward momentum"...Maazel always makes it home ;) and the view along the way utterly gorgeous. Works especially well, I think, in 4, 6 and 7.
Sarge
"Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, and 6, while still on the slow side at times, are generally excellent, and the Third may well be the finest version on disc, bar none." --Classics Today, the Hurwitzer
Yes, you're certainly right about the Maazel/ Pittsburgh 3rd. Maazel's briskness here almost comes as a shock after hearing some of his tempi in the 2nd.
Ah, the Hurwitzer... As I recall, he was not this enthusiastic about Colin Davis's RCA set. ;) (
"Lemminkäinen obviously needs a dose–hell, a whole bottle–of Viagra. The Swan of Tuonela, at nearly 11 minutes, does more than evoke the mythological dwelling place of the dead: it sounds as if both conductor and orchestra studied music there. And speaking of the dead, Lemminkäinen in Tuonela, at more than 18 minutes, seems to go on forever." --DH) Ouch! Talk about giving free rein to scorn. ;D
Sibelius: Symphony No 4 Pittsburgh SO/ Maazel
I am starting to understand the earlier posts about Maazel's Pittsburgh SO cycle. The 4th symphony moved in a pace I could barely have imagined. It almost seemed to be a joke. The slug-like pace seemed to remove some of the darkness and mystery within the 4th - it was just so slow (in my ears) that the wonder of the 4th quickly dissipated. Surely the purpose must have been to emphasize the wonder, but the glacial approach seems to have the opposite effect. I am not even sure if I can handle another exposure to this recording.....
from
[asin] B004H6P2O2[/asin]
Sibelius:
Kung Kristian II Op 27 /Laukka
Kuolema JS 113 /Laukka/Tiihonnen
Svanevit JS 189 /Tepponen/Pietiläinen
Lahti SO/Vänskä
I have started to explore some of the more peripheral music composed by Sibelius with the help of BIS' project. I am so impressed with these pieces.
At first I was a bit apprehensive, but the orchestral arrangements in Kung Christian were delightful (especially the strings). Laukka and Tiihonnen's voices were beautiful and seemingly perfectly attuned to the pieces. "Svanevit" in particular was poignant and very beautiful. This recording was engaging throughout and I cannot wait to explore this set further. Overall, this makes me very interested in the BIS SIbelius project. It appears as if much of this music has been neglected (perhaps for good reason?), but my interest and curiosity are growing after encountering these performances. The recording itself is crystal clear in warm sound. I am in awe at the moment! I feel like I just stumbled across a fragment of delicate and fragile beauty from the past.
Here is a review of the first five volumes of the BIS Sibelius project from Music Web (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Feb09/Sibelius_Edition_BIS_I-V.htm).
from Vol 5 of the BIS Sibelius Edition
[asin] B001C58M9I[/asin]
OK, so which is the best performance of the Kullervo Symphony?
I've only heard one, so I cannot offer; but I am curious to hear opinions, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2015, 09:08:28 AM
I've only heard one, so I cannot offer; but I am curious to hear opinions, too.
+1. I'd imagine that Vänskä (BIS), Berglund (EMI), Segerstam (Ondine), Segerstam (Chandos), Panula (Naxos, as reviewed by Karl Henning on Amazon), Saraste (Finlandia), and Paavo Järvi (Virgin) are in the running..
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
OK, so which is the best performance of the Kullervo Symphony?
A toss-up between Vanska and Segerstam (Ondine). Can't go wrong with either performance IMHO.
I read somewhere just a few days ago that Kullervo is pretty well served on disc, with lots of decent versions.
;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
A toss-up between Vanska and Segerstam (Ondine). Can't go wrong with either performance IMHO.
Thanks John, Karl, Orfeo and North Star for replies. Vanska and Segerstam are about the only versions that I don't have ( ::)). I've heard that Segerstam is very good and I do like his Four Legends and Tapiola on a fine Ondine CD. Vanska is invariably excellent - so must look out for those versions. Apart from the versions already mentioned I like the Berglund, Bournemouth version and the later Helsinki one. By the way BBC Music Magazine has a very good Sibelius related issue this month with a CD of Symphony 4 attached.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
OK, so which is the best performance of the Kullervo Symphony?
Quote from: North Star on February 17, 2015, 09:29:21 AM
I'd imagine that Vänskä (BIS), Berglund (EMI), Segerstam (Ondine), Segerstam (Chandos), Panula (Naxos, as reviewed by Karl Henning on Amazon), Saraste (Finlandia), and Paavo Järvi (Virgin) are in the running..
I have all of the above (except Panula) and several others I can't recall at the moment (I really need to start cataloguing the collection); Vänskä (BIS), Segerstam (Ondine) and Saraste (Finlandia) are my top favourites.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 10:40:56 PM
I like the Berglund, Bournemouth version
Another excellent one! I don't think I've heard the Berglund Helsinki PO rendition.
Quote from: Wanderer on February 18, 2015, 12:23:46 AM
I have all of the above (except Panula) and several others I can't recall at the moment (I really need to start cataloguing the collection); Vänskä (BIS), Segerstam (Ondine) and Saraste (Finlandia) are my top favourites.
Another excellent one! I don't think I've heard the Berglund Helsinki PO rendition.
Many thanks Wanderer. I like the Sarastate CD with Symphony 5, Tapiola and En Saga on.
I'm curious, does anyone have much experience with recordings of the songs?
I've been trying out Anne Sofie von Otter/Bengt Forsberg online, and quite liking it.
Quote from: orfeo on February 18, 2015, 02:02:54 AM
I'm curious, does anyone have much experience with recordings of the songs?
I've been trying out Anne Sofie von Otter/Bengt Forsberg online, and quite liking it.
I've always found them worthwhile. The 7th volume of the BIS Sibelius Edition is devoted to the songs (von Otter/Forsberg et al. - very good). I also quite like these:
[asin]B00FBG7NNA[/asin][asin]B000FBHSHC[/asin]
Off-topic PS: von Otter/Forsberg have also recorded some quite splendid Korngold songs/lieder for DG.
Quote from: Wanderer on February 18, 2015, 03:20:55 AM
I also quite like these:
[asin]B000FBHSHC[/asin]
Yes, I have read (somewhere!) some quite positive things about this one, with the orchestral arrangements as well as the couple of original orchestral songs.
I'm not inclined to the Sibelius edition, would rather get the individual discs I think. The songs box is not as bad as some of the others, but again there's this desire to record every possible arrangement and version - do I really need to hear songs labelled as "early draft copies" alongside the finished product? I'm not a musicologist.
Sorry, I know I keep commenting on it, but it just seems to me that BIS has intentionally organised the boxes, and indeed some of the individual discs that preceded them, with 'filler' that hardly anyone is likely to want to listen to.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 17, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
OK, so which is the best performance of the Kullervo Symphony?
The one no one has mentioned yet: Davis/LSO. Actually there are two: one studio (RCA), one live on the LSO Live label. I prefer the RCA for its massive first movement (yeah, Sibelius Brucknerized but I think it works).
But as noted already, there are few Kullervos that aren't good. Of the eleven versions I own, the only disappointing performances are P. Järvi (contrary to Davis' slow first movement, Paavo's slow last movement just doesn't work, robbing the music of a satisfying conclusion) and Rasilainen with my hometown band (let down by a poor mezzo and a reading that lacks excitement in the first movement).
Davis (RCA) 16:18 15:58 26:01 10:27 11:53
Davis (LSO Live) 14:22 14:04 23:22 10:18 9:46
Segerstam (Ondine) 14:16 16:32 24:38 9:46 12:40
Rasilainen 13:59 14:43 24:52 10:01 9:15
Järvi, Paavo 14:00 15:56 24:19 9:38 14:32
Berglund (Bournemouth) 13:55 14:02 24:55 8:52 10:00
Vänskä 12:57 19:23 25:38 10:13 12:32
Berglund (Helsinki) 12:45 14:08 25:06 10:03 9:46
Saraste 12:45 14:18 23:42 9:24 9:48
Salonen 12:43 15:02 22:55 9:38 9:53
Järvi, Neeme 11:50 13:50 23:11 10:16 9:39
Sarge
Sarge comes through! :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2015, 06:12:52 AM
Vänskä 12:57 19:23 25:38 10:13 12:32
Vänskä's second movement sure stands out from the crowd!
Quote from: North Star on February 18, 2015, 06:20:09 AM
Vänskä's second movement sure stands out from the crowd!
Here's what the Hurwitzer has to say about that second movement tempo:
"
When Vänskä's version was released more than a decade ago, it struck me as so different from the other available performances as to be slightly disconcerting in spots, particularly the second movement ("Kullervo's Youth"), with its drastically slow tempo as compared to Berglund (and everyone else). The two sound samples below allow you to make the comparison yourself. Now that the discography for the symphony is significantly larger, and having lived with this performance for a good ten years, it strikes me that any reservations I expressed on account of Vänskä's interpretive choices were unfounded. The performance has grown in stature as its distinctive qualities have separated it from the pack. Accordingly, I have bumped up the rating to a "10" and am comfortable listing this version as a reference recording alongside Berglund's Bournemouth outing, or any of the other highly recommendable performances that have appeared over the past few years." See more at: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6008/?search=1#sthash.1hbIeYtl.dpuf
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2015, 06:33:58 AM
Here's what the Hurwitzer has to say about that second movement tempo:
Thanks,
Sarge.
Sibelius: Piano Music Vol 2
Six Finnish Folk Songs
Ten Bagatelles Op 34
Pensees lyriques Op 40
Kyllikki Op 41
Håvard Gimse
I am venturing into Sibelius' piano pieces and it turns out that the experience is delightful. The general consensus seems to be that these works are forgettable, but I have to disagree. Obviously these works are very different compared to the symphonies and tone poems. They are light pieces for the solo piano, but they provide a poetic and graceful listening experience. At this point I am eager to explore additional compositions for the piano in Sibelius' soundscape.
(http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.554808.jpg)
The Feb 2015 issue of BBC Music had a focus on Sibelius including a cd with the 4th symphony (BBC Scottish SO/Manze):
(http://magazines.magazineclonercdn.com/covers/94149.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on February 23, 2015, 07:11:55 AM
The Feb 2015 issue of BBC Music had a focus on Sibelius including a cd with the 4th symphony (BBC Scottish SO/Manze):
(http://magazines.magazineclonercdn.com/covers/94149.jpg)
I'm definitely going to pick this magazine up once it becomes a 'back issue' which won't be too long from now. :)
Quote from: Moonfish on February 23, 2015, 07:11:55 AM
The Feb 2015 issue of BBC Music had a focus on Sibelius including a cd with the 4th symphony (BBC Scottish SO/Manze):
(http://magazines.magazineclonercdn.com/covers/94149.jpg)
I have it and it is a really good issue. I like the CD with Symphony 4 and there is a great photo of a Sibelius taken a few days before he died. I also liked the painting of Sibelius, Kajanus and Gallen Kallela (painter) all clearly intoxicated as young men. Also, the travelogue of locations associated with Sibelius is very poignant for me as I went to Finland in 2013 with my brother, shortly after my much loved sister-in-law passed away unexpectedly. We visited many of the sites associated with Sibelius, including Ainola where Sibelius and his wife are buried. To visit his house was quite wonderful and my brother played the piano in the Sibelius house cafe. Then my wife joined Us for a few days in Helsinki. My Finnish friends were very kind to us although I am not sure that I would want to repeat the 'Finnish Sauna Experience'. ???
Does anybody know if any major Sibelius compilation will be released this year (150th anniversary of his birth)? Perhaps it is timed for December to be in sync with his actual birth date as well as the Christmas buying frenzy? Regardless, are there any rumors out there...?
Quote from: vandermolen on February 23, 2015, 10:38:51 AM
I have it and it is a really good issue. I like the CD with Symphony 4 and there is a great photo of a Sibelius taken a few days before he died. I also liked the painting of Sibelius, Kajanus and Gallen Kallela (painter) all clearly intoxicated as young men. Also, the travelogue of locations associated with Sibelius is very poignant for me as I went to Finland in 2013 with my brother, shortly after my much loved sister-in-law passed away unexpectedly. We visited many of the sites associated with Sibelius, including Ainola where Sibelius and his wife are buried. To visit his house was quite wonderful and my brother played the piano in the Sibelius house cafe. Then my wife joined Us for a few days in Helsinki. My Finnish friends were very kind to us although I am not sure that I would want to repeat the 'Finnish Sauna Experience'. ???
Ha ha! Did you have a "snow cooling" as part of the sauna experience? I actually like saunas, but it has been a while. ;)
Quote from: Moonfish on March 07, 2015, 04:48:08 PM
Ha ha! Did you have a "snow cooling" as part of the sauna experience? I actually like saunas, but it has been a while. ;)
Not sure what that is but fortunately my Finnish friend gave us so much to drink beforehand that my brother and I were usually drunk before we went into the sauna. You need to understand that we inhibited Brits find this kind of think difficult although I am sure that there are many health benefits. My dear Finnish friend's father was something like the President of the Finnish Sauna Association so it is a matter of principle to my friend to use the sauna every day ( I usually have a glass of wine when I get back from work). Still, I did like the swimming in the lake by his summer cottage and bringing it back on topic enjoyed seeing Sibelius's sauna at Ainola. Currently enjoying Maurice Abranel's Utah set of the Sibelius symphonies which I picked up second hand for about £5.00 which is amazing value. So far I have liked the versions of symphonies 1 and 4 and read somewhere that that of No.3 is excellent too.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 08, 2015, 01:20:16 AM
Not sure what that is but fortunately my Finnish friend gave us so much to drink beforehand that my brother and I were usually drunk before we went into the sauna. You need to understand that we inhibited Brits find this kind of think difficult although I am sure that there are many health benefits. My dear Finnish friend's father was something like the President of the Finnish Sauna Association so it is a matter of principal to my friend to use the sauna every day ( I usually have a glass of wine when I get back from work). Still, I did like the swimming in the lake by his summer cottage and bringing it back on topic enjoyed seeing Sibelius's sauna at Ainola. Currently enjoying Maurice Abranel's Utah set of the Sibelius symphonies which I picked up second hand for about £5.00 which is amazing value. So far I have liked the versions of symphonies 1 and 4 and read somewhere that that of No.3 is excellent too.
It does sound like you had a great time. Personally I think I would avoid any major alcohol before hitting the sauna as it certainly is hot enough. The winter saunas are the ones with the crazy roll-in-the-snow cooling sessions... >:D It seems like you passed through during the serene summer days!
Any fans of Sibelius' songs? I just listened to a recording with Flagstad - (Var det en dröm? Op. 37, No.4 [Was it a dream?]). London Philharmonic Orchestra/ Øivin Fjeldstad. The poem by Wecksell is actually very beautiful!
https://www.youtube.com/v/xUSry-oB7CM
Var det en dröm, att ljuvt en gång
jag var ditt hjärtas vän?
Jag minns det som en tystnad sång,
då strängen darrar än.
Jag minns en törnros av dig skänkt,
en blick så blyg och öm;
jag minns en avskedstår, som blänkt.
Var allt, var allt en dröm?
En dröm lik sippans liv så kort
uti en vårgrön ängd,
vars fägring hastigt vissnar bort
för nya blommors mängd.
Men mången natt jag hör en röst
vid bittra tårars ström:
göm djupt dess minne i ditt bröst,
det var din bästa dröm!
translated (http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=17297): [although I disagree with quite a bit of it]
Was it a dream that once, in a wonderful time,
I was your heart's true love?
I remember it as a song fallen silent,
of which the strains still echo.
I remember a rose you tossed,
a glance so shy and tender;
I remember a sparkling tear when we parted.
Was it all, all a dream?
A dream as brief as the life of a cowslip
in a green meadow in springtime,
whose beauty soon withers away
before a crowd of new flowers.
But many a night I hear a voice
through the flood of my bitter tears:
hide this memory deep in your heart,
it was your best dream!
I am of Tawastjerna's opinion that Sibelius's best songs often are those with the best lyrics, such as those set to Runeberg's words. Hadn't heard that one you mentioned, though.
Updated
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B003UNYWYY.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s0Jgx7YBgik/VP4a7l9pKVI/AAAAAAAAIF4/boFZKgO24tg/s1600/HvKarajan_EMI_BPh_SIBELIUS_Symphony-Cycle-Survey_Discography_ionarts_jens-f-laurson.png)
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
I just heard the song Teodora, op.35/2. :o Absolutely amazing. The music is basically this series of low rumblings for 4 minutes.
Quote from: orfeo on March 15, 2015, 12:58:39 AM
I just heard the song Teodora, op.35/2. :o Absolutely amazing. The music is basically this series of low rumblings for 4 minutes.
That's
exactly the thing I love about Sibelius. He can exist on a slow simmer like nobody I know. What might be an exercise in futility for others is a strength for Sibelius.
I'm listening to the Robert Kajanus recordings for the first time, to see how Sibelius' alleged favorite fares in the symphonies.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.111395.jpg)
No. 3 is a pretty good performance by the London Symphony. The slow movement is the most unusual interpretation: over 11 minutes long, but it works, or at least it's pretty interesting. My listening to the disc was inspired by a recent GMG debate over the proper tempo for this movement; a couple people said Kajanus is similar to Sibelius' own preference. It's definitely not wrong.
Speaking of wrong, the first movement of the Fifth descends into dreadful wrongness halfway through. The big lurching transition from slow passage to scherzo is completely botched, and very messily played, and then the last few chords are so badly played that different sections of the orchestra are literally seconds apart. It might be the worst "professional" playing I've heard on record.
Right now my ears are in the slow movement, which is going just fine. Maybe a teensy bit fast.
For years I eschewed his sixth symphony, then became intoxicated with it (Britten thought that Sibelius must have been drunk when he wrote it) and it became my favorite of them all. Still, it's enigmatic to me, peculiar, troubling, even. I'm not alone : see Tom Service's interesting article in the Guardian from a year and a half ago: http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/nov/26/symphony-guide-sibelius-sixth-tom-service I think Service exaggerates the "self-effacing" nature of the work, but he has some insights.
Half the time, the Sixth is my favorite Sibelius symphony. (Wish I didn't know Britten had said that; what an ass.)
Even though the 4th is my favorite of the cycle, the 6th really is something else. Certainly an amazing work.
A quick sidebar: I find it quite strange that the 6th gets no mention in this documentary:
[asin]B000M2EBWO[/asin]
Quote from: karlhenning on April 07, 2015, 04:47:15 AM
Half the time, the Sixth is my favorite Sibelius symphony. (Wish I didn't know Britten had said that; what an ass.)
Yes, that's a comment on Britten and not on Sibelius. Vaughan Williams rated Sibelius's 6th Symphony as one of his very greatest works. It is a wonderful score.
The 6th was Robert Simpson's favourite Sibelius symphony.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 07, 2015, 04:47:15 AM
Half the time, the Sixth is my favorite Sibelius symphony. (Wish I didn't know Britten had said that; what an ass.)
Ditto.
Of course, Britten disliked a lot of good music, vocally.
Quote from: North Star on April 07, 2015, 10:37:37 PM
Ditto.
Of course, Britten disliked a lot of good music, vocally.
Well, and of course, one allows an artist his dislikes. Not that one need applaud him in those 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on April 08, 2015, 04:02:39 AM
Well, and of course, one allows an artist his dislikes. Not that one need applaud him in those 8)
Indeed.
thanks VdM and Cockatoo!: all news to me and must say VW and Simpson's and Meister Henning's views carry some weight with me.
You are kind!
6th symphony has for long time been my favorite from Jean. Yet at the first time I didn't get it, I preferred "larger" and "more ambitious" symphonies no. 1 and 2. But after one relistening, bang! I was sold. Its classicism-almost rococo-like style is so refreshing (kind of like 3rd symphony which I've read, is along with 6th one of his most neglected ones). This sounds silly but some of the movements have kind of the same effect to me than drinking ice cold Coke or Pepsi after working hard on a hot day. Yes, I did just compare one of the greatest symphonies of 20th century to drinking soda. Sibelius probably would have preferred water (at least that's what he said about cocktails when people complained about his use of orchestra).
Yes, a Wagner fan likes the light touch of 6th symphony. 8)
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on April 08, 2015, 05:28:38 AM
thanks VdM and Cockatoo!: all news to me and must say VW and Simpson's and Meister Henning's views carry some weight with me.
+1 :)
Quote from: Alberich on April 08, 2015, 06:26:20 AM
Sibelius probably would have preferred water vodka on the rocks.
Fixed.
From "What are you listening to now"
Sibelius:
Concerto in D minor for violin and orchestra Op 47 (original version 1903-04) transcribed for violin and piano
Sato/Gräsbeck
Sibelius did a fantastic job in his transcription. I certainly prefer the original Violin Concerto, but this is delicately performed by Sato and Gräsbeck. Beautiful! A bit more low key compared to the "real" thing.
from
[asin] B001FNBDT8[/asin]
Quote from: North Star on April 26, 2015, 02:46:46 PM
Is there more information on this in the booklet? Elsewhere I saw that Kalevi Aho had done some finishing touches to the transcription.
It states that Sibelius did all the work on the final version (1905). In this 'original version' (1903-04) it is a blend depending on the movement. From the booklet:
"It is clear that Sibelius planned to make a transcription after the first performances with the orchestra: a manuscript in the National Library of Finland contains his own adaptation of parts of the first movement in which a few details of the violin part have already been modified. The transcription is fragmentary and the piano part was completed by the composer Kalevi Aho in 2007, with reference to the complete orchestral score of the first version and the published transcription of the definitive version. The Sibelius Museum in Turku possesses manuscripts of the second and third movements, but the second movement is already in its revised 1905 form and so, in order to avoid creating a spurious 'hybrid' version, we have used the violin part from the orchestral original for this recording. The third movement of the 1903-04 version, on the other hand, was transcribed in its entirety by Sibelius; to judge the confusingly laid out manuscript, he used his transcription when planning which passages to cut in the revision." [Andrew Barnett]
I was thrilled to see all of the Sibelius listening and discussions today. That is all for now. 8)
Sibelius:
Belsazars gästabud Lahti SO/Vänskä
Kung Kristian II Gothenburg SO/Järvi
Svanevit Gothenburg SO/Järvi
I listened to this cd twice (last night as well as this morning) and was struck by how endearing the music was. All three of these works possess both charm and power. The soundscape is whispering, alluring and invokes a dreamy feeling within me. Surprisingly, the quality of the compositions is high throughout. It seems like there is a certain stigma attached to the "not-so-famous" works composed by Sibelius. This volume of the Sibelius Edition certainly contradicts such opinions to a very high degree. This is a cd I will return to over and over. I wonder what else is hidden in the valiant BIS project?
cd 4 from
[asin] B001AX69C4[/asin]
Have you heard Origin Of Fire (Original Version) from the Voice & Orchestra set yet, Peter? Absolutely brilliant work. If I hadn't already picked five favorite Sibelius works, this one would have been a serious contender.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 06, 2015, 07:17:26 PM
Have you heard Origin Of Fire (Original Version) from the Voice & Orchestra set yet, Peter? Absolutely brilliant work. If I hadn't already picked five favorite Sibelius works, this one would have been a serious contender.
Not yet! Too many yummy auditory chocolates in these boxes. I also have a tendency to listen to the disks twice for some reason. ;)
Quote from: Moonfish on May 06, 2015, 07:29:32 PM
Not yet! Too many yummy auditory chocolates in these boxes. I also have a tendency to listen to the disks twice for some reason. ;)
So do I. Saves getting off the couch ;)
When I go through a new box I almost always listen to each disc twice before moving on to the next.
La Mer recordings excepted.
Quote from: Moonfish on May 06, 2015, 07:29:32 PM
Not yet! Too many yummy auditory chocolates in these boxes. I also have a tendency to listen to the disks twice for some reason. ;)
Man! You've got to hear this work! I was just going through this
Voice & Orchestra set and my buddy, Karlo (North Star), suggested to me that I need to listen to this work ASAP and so I listened. I'm glad I did, too. What's ingenious about this particular work is the range of emotions it goes through in a mere 11 and half minutes. It's for baritone, male choir, and orchestra. The beginning sounds like something Shostakovich would have written which seems to invoke a darkened landscape. When the baritone enters, it kind of reminded me of Shostakovich's
Symphony No. 14 or should I say the other way around since this predates any Shostakovich by many years. What's also interesting and worth pointing out is even in such an early work such as
Origin Of Fire, the music is quite mature. Superb orchestration abound and the way the piece climaxes is absolutely gripping. Have I piqued your interest yet? ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 06, 2015, 07:44:36 PM
Man! You've got to hear this work! I was just going through this Voice & Orchestra set and my buddy, Karlo (North Star), suggested to me that I need to listen to this work ASAP and so I listened. I'm glad I did, too. What's ingenious about this particular work is the range of emotions it goes through in a mere 11 and half minutes. It's for baritone, male choir, and orchestra. The beginning sounds like something Shostakovich would have written which seems to invoke a darkened landscape. When the baritone enters, it kind of reminded me of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 14 or should I say the other way around since this predates any Shostakovich by many years. What's also interesting and worth pointing out is even in such an early work such as Origin Of Fire, the music is quite mature. Superb orchestration abound and the way the piece climaxes is absolutely gripping. Have I piqued your interest yet? ;)
Ha ha! As always.... 0:)
It does sound like a piece one would keep listening to over and over though! 8)
Quote from: Moonfish on May 06, 2015, 07:47:23 PM
Ha ha! As always.... 0:)
It does sound like a piece one would keep listening to over and over though! 8)
It's certainly worth your time (whenever you get the opportunity). You won't be sorry. :)
What is everyone's favorite performance(s) of the Violin Concerto? Mine is a tie between: Hahn/Salonen and Kuusisto/Segerstam. I also really like the Mullova/Ozawa but it's in a distant running with the afore mentioned performances.
And has our Karl heard The Origin Of Fire yet? If not, listen to both versions (when you get the chance), the differences between them gives you a glimpse into Sibelius' revision process, but both versions further demonstrate his compositional mastery even at such an early stage in his development.
I don't have a favorite violin concerto recording. :( I prefer "hotter", fiery-er, more romantic interpretations, with livelier tempos. (Any first movement longer than 16' will probably be a reject.) I'd really love to hear a more mannered, old-school performance with vibrato that leaves scorch marks in the first 2 minutes and the slow movement. Strongly dislike Kuusisto and Kavakos/Vanska.
Right now the closest to what I'm looking for are Heifetz, Shaham, and Adele Anthony, but I'm searching for my white whale.
This is sort of like how my ideal Second Symphony recording - with a brisk, neoclassical reading of the first movement that clocks in around 7:45-8:00 - does not and likely will never exist.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 05:57:23 PM
What is everyone's favorite performance(s) of the Violin Concerto? Mine is a tie between: Hahn/Salonen, Kuusisto/Segerstam, and Kavakos/Vanska. I also really like the Mullova/Ozawa but it's in a distant running with the afore mentioned performances.
It seems I'm on repeat mode about my fave but once again I plump for the Haendel/Berglund/Bournemouth recording. :) Haendel's playing is loaded with confidence. She has flair, vision, chops to tackle every hairpin twist, with daredevil stabs glued to a wonderful overarching long-view of the piece. EVERYTHING has a place and purpose. And symmetry...plenty of symmetry.
PLUS...this is one of the finest examples of recorded sound I've heard. Spacious, multi-layered, burly, and very characterful.
It pops up for cheapish on Amazon from time to time so waiting for opportunity is key. Right now it's on the expensive side.
[asin]B000058UTF[/asin]
Crap...here's the pic:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CtvR3CH%2BL._SL1414_.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2015, 06:34:35 PM
I don't have a favorite violin concerto recording. :( I prefer "hotter", fiery-er, more romantic interpretations, with livelier tempos. (Any first movement longer than 16' will probably be a reject.) I'd really love to hear a more mannered, old-school performance with vibrato that leaves scorch marks in the first 2 minutes and the slow movement.
One word: Haendel. Brian-qualifiers: her first movement is 16:28...but forget about it. Her vibrato isn't excessive...but forget about it. She's "mannered" only in the sense that her style is bathed in personality. But she's never the charlatan. And the sound she produces...and the sound the
Bournemouth produces. Distinct. Individual. Making a meal of the piece.
Good stuff.
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2015, 06:34:35 PMI prefer "hotter", fiery-er, more romantic interpretations, with livelier tempos. (Any first movement longer than 16' will probably be a reject.) I'd really love to hear a more mannered, old-school performance with vibrato that leaves scorch marks in the first 2 minutes and the slow movement.
Of the recordings I've heard you might enjoy Mullova, who's definitely quite romantic but doesn't linger.
I don't have a fave cos I don't actually like the concerto that much, lol
Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2015, 06:34:35 PM
I don't have a favorite violin concerto recording. :( I prefer "hotter", fiery-er, more romantic interpretations, with livelier tempos. (Any first movement longer than 16' will probably be a reject.) I'd really love to hear a more mannered, old-school performance with vibrato that leaves scorch marks in the first 2 minutes and the slow movement. Strongly dislike Kuusisto and Kavakos/Vanska.
Right now the closest to what I'm looking for are Heifetz, Shaham, and Adele Anthony, but I'm searching for my white whale.
This is sort of like how my ideal Second Symphony recording - with a brisk, neoclassical reading of the first movement that clocks in around 7:45-8:00 - does not and likely will never exist.
I can't stand Heifetz and Shaham is decent, but not what I prefer to hear in this VC. I like the icy, desolate landscape approach. :) I have not heard Adele Anthony but I remain rather pessimistic about other performances. Kyung Wha Chung/Previn is a performance I bought recently, but haven't heard yet. I'm open to all kinds of interpretations, but I don't want anything to do with 'a more mannered, old-school performance'. That's just a turn-off for me. 8)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2015, 06:56:27 PM
It seems I'm on repeat mode about my fave but once again I plump for the Haendel/Berglund/Bournemouth recording. :) Haendel's playing is loaded with confidence. She has flair, vision, chops to tackle every hairpin twist, with daredevil stabs glued to a wonderful overarching long-view of the piece. EVERYTHING has a place and purpose. And symmetry...plenty of symmetry.
PLUS...this is one of the finest examples of recorded sound I've heard. Spacious, multi-layered, burly, and very characterful.
It pops up for cheapish on Amazon from time to time so waiting for opportunity is key. Right now it's on the expensive side.
[asin]B000058UTF[/asin]
Crap...here's the pic:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CtvR3CH%2BL._SL1414_.jpg)
I haven't heard this recording (way too expensive) but I've never been fond of Haendel's playing. I have only heard her performances of the Britten and Elgar VCs but this was enough for me to not ever listen to anything else she's done. A lot of it is just her tone and her general approach to the instrument that rubs me the wrong way.
My favorite performance of the Sibelius Violin concerto definitely is:
Sibelius: Violin Concerto Wicks/The SO of Radio Stockholm/Ehrling
This is a fantastic recording! :P
[asin] B007TB4766[/asin]
https://www.youtube.com/v/oEEStY8gBco
(http://cdn.discogs.com/lPpkPs9Z4RBJhItolJ0yNzB7sDQ=/600x816/smart/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/A-1753673-1425559867-1756.jpeg.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on May 11, 2015, 07:53:13 PM
My favorite performance of the Sibelius Violin concerto definitely is:
Sibelius: Violin Concerto Wicks/The SO of Radio Stockholm/Ehrling
This is a fantastic recording! :P
[asin] B007TB4766[/asin]
https://www.youtube.com/v/oEEStY8gBco
(http://cdn.discogs.com/lPpkPs9Z4RBJhItolJ0yNzB7sDQ=/600x816/smart/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/A-1753673-1425559867-1756.jpeg.jpg)
But how many other performances have you heard, Peter?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 07:55:04 PM
But how many other performances have you heard, Peter?
A bunch (10 or so), but definitely not all (and not too many recent ones). I still like Wicks. One cannot hear them all, you know, unless there is a big pile of cash hidden under the bed. 0:) You asked which one was our favorite version - not to list zillions of renditions! >:D
I always tend to return to Wicks as well as Hahn on a consistent basis.
Quote from: Moonfish on May 11, 2015, 08:00:05 PM
A bunch (10 or so), but definitely not all (and not too many recent ones). I still like Wicks. One cannot hear them all, you know, unless there is a big pile of cash hidden under the bed. 0:) You asked which one was our favorite version - not to list zillions of renditions! >:D
I always tend to return to Wicks as well as Hahn on a consistent basis.
Fair enough, Peter. I just wasn't sure how many performances you've heard. BTW, Hahn is unbelievable in this concerto. It also helps to have Salonen on the podium. You can almost feel the frostbite. ;)
I wonder where our Karl stands in the grand Violin Concerto sweepstakes? Will be curious to read his response since he's a hardcore Sibelian like me. 8)
Really looking forward to this release:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Z0RBGAjjL._SL1429_.jpg)
Of course, all of this music is fantastic. I really wish this part of Sibelius' oeuvre would get more attention, especially in the concert hall. It's also nice to have Segerstam back conducting Sibelius as it's been awhile since his last recordings. Segerstam, of course, is one of my favorite Sibelians along with Vanska, HvK, Bernstein, and Berglund.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 07:47:42 PM
I haven't heard this recording (way too expensive) but I've never been fond of Haendel's playing. I have only heard her performances of the Britten and Elgar VCs but this was enough for me to not ever listen to anything else she's done. A lot of it is just her tone and her general approach to the instrument that rubs me the wrong way.
Her "tone" and "general approach" are the very things a work like this needs!! Too often violinists either can't handle (no pun) the terrain in this work or are afraid to take chances. Ms. Haendel takes to plundering and never looks back.
And her Britten recording is in the same league!!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2015, 08:24:35 PM
Her "tone" and "general approach" are the very things a work like this needs!! Too often violinists either can't handle (no pun) the terrain in this work or are afraid to take chances. Ms. Haendel takes to plundering and never looks back.
And her Britten recording is in the same league!!
I just don't like the way she plays. Going to play the Hahn/Salonen performance in a bit which I absolutely love. Very characteristic and unique playing that takes plenty of chances.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 08:29:29 PM
I just don't like the way she plays. Going to play the Hahn/Salonen performance in a bit which I absolutely love. Very characteristic and unique playing that takes plenty of chances.
Err...then why are you asking us to list our favorites?
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2015, 08:38:58 PM
Err...then why are you asking us to list our favorites?
Because I'm curious to know what members' favorites are, but I'm just sharing my likes/dislikes like we're supposed to do on a forum. I mean Brian felt the need to say he strongly dislikes this or that performance, so I'm just following the leader. :) But I'm not about to get into an argument with anyone over their choices --- life's too short.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
Because I'm curious to know what members' favorites are, but I'm just sharing my likes/dislikes like we're supposed to do on forums. Brian felt the need to say he strongly dislikes this or that performance, so I'm just following the leader. :) But I'm not about to get into an argument with anyone over their choices --- life's too short.
Then try actually LISTENING to a recording before dismissing it, especially since you asked. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 08:10:35 PM
Karl ... he's a hardcore Sibelian like me.
Not at all! Karl will still like Sibelius next week!
>:D :P
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2015, 08:47:04 PM
Then try actually LISTENING to a recording before dismissing it, especially since you asked. ;)
If you're referring to the Haendel, I would if I didn't have to take out a small loan from the bank to buy it. :)
Quote from: Ken B on May 11, 2015, 08:49:20 PM
Not at all! Karl will still like Sibelius next week!
>:D :P
Well I've always loved Sibelius whether he's climbed into my Top 5 or Top 10 or not at all. My love of his music goes back to beginning of my classical listening and so does Nielsen actually.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 08:49:54 PM
If you're referring to the Haendel, I would if I didn't have to take out a small loan from the bank to buy it. :)
It actually does pop up for cheaper on Amazon, it just takes patience. :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2015, 08:53:04 PM
It actually does pop up for cheaper on Amazon, it just takes patience. :)
I'll definitely keep my eye on it since you rate it so highly. Plus, it's got Berglund on the podium. Can't go wrong there.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2015, 05:57:23 PM
What is everyone's favorite performance(s) of the Violin Concerto? Mine is a tie between: Hahn/Salonen and Kuusisto/Segerstam. I also really like the Mullova/Ozawa but it's in a distant running with the afore mentioned performances.
Kavakos is, in my opinion, unsurpassed so far. It's
his concerto and he inhabits its sound world perfectly. Reserve and abandon, fierceness and tenderness in striking combination. I saw him performing it live with the BPO recently and he was even more astonishing. He clearly knows the work inside out and has honed his interpretation to perfection, a fire that burns like ice. Don't miss this year's BPO
Europakonzert when it makes it on DVD/BD and don't miss any chance you get to hear him in concert.
I'm a hardcore Sibelian but I really don't have favorite recording of VC, since I have never been that selective with recordings. As long as they don't completely f*ck it up, I'm usually satisfied.
But I think this is a pretty good one:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130451.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: Wanderer on May 12, 2015, 12:32:05 AM
Kavakos is, in my opinion, unsurpassed so far. It's his concerto and he inhabits its sound world perfectly. Reserve and abandon, fierceness and tenderness in striking combination. I saw him performing it live with the BPO recently and he was even more astonishing. He clearly knows the work inside out and has honed his interpretation to perfection, a fire that burns like ice. Don't miss this year's BPO Europakonzert when it makes it on DVD/BD and don't miss any chance you get to hear him in concert.
I like the Kavakos performance with Vanska, but I don't like the recorded sound, which is why I deleted it from my initial list. He's placed way too far back in the mix while the orchestra is brought way too forward. It's not an ideal balance to my ears.
Quote from: Alberich on May 12, 2015, 03:36:29 AM
I'm a hardcore Sibelian but I really don't have favorite recording of VC, since I have never been that selective with recordings. As long as they don't completely f*ck it up, I'm usually satisfied.
But I think this is a pretty good one:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130451.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Haven't heard of this one before, but it has Kamu on the podium, so this should mean something, right? :) I'll look for this recording. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Alberich.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2015, 07:06:03 AM
I like the Kavakos performance with Vanska, but I don't like the recorded sound, which is why I deleted it from my initial list. He's placed way too far back in the mix while the orchestra is brought way too forward. It's not an ideal balance to my ears.
Sounds like my kind concerto recording. Haven't heard it in years but I'll make a point to listen to it soon.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2015, 07:26:48 AM
Sounds like my kind concerto recording.
Sarge
+1, especially the Sibelius VC works well when the soloist isn't unnaturally forward in the mix.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2015, 07:26:48 AM
Sounds like my kind concerto recording. Haven't heard it in years but I'll make a point to listen to it soon.
Sarge
So you prefer the orchestra itself drowning out the violin? Defeats the purpose of a concerto IMHO.
Quote from: Ken B on May 11, 2015, 08:49:20 PM
Not at all! Karl will still like Sibelius next week!
>:D :P
Hah!
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2015, 07:57:16 AM
So you prefer the orchestra itself drowning out the violin?
No, I prefer a realistic, concert hall balance with the soloist integrated not spotlit or jumbo-sized.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2015, 05:38:51 AM
No, I prefer a realistic, concert hall balance with the soloist integrated not spotlit or jumbo-sized.
Sarge
I do, too, which is why I spoke negatively about the audio quality on the Kavakos/Vanska recording. Kavakos is just buried in the mix while the orchestra in the crescendo passages leaves him in the dust sonically speaking. That's not an ideal balance IMHO.
Lemminkäinen Suite
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YxWJwkIYaQI/VMdZ2iZ_ITI/AAAAAAAAGVI/TT550wEQwTU/s1600/Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg)
The Lemminkäinen Suite (also called the Four Legends, or Four Legends from the Kalevala) is a work written by the Finnish composer Jean Sibelius in the early 1890s which forms his opus 22. Originally conceived as a mythological opera, Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat), on a scale matching those by Richard Wagner, Sibelius later changed his musical goals and the work became an orchestral piece in four movements. The suite is based on the character Lemminkäinen from the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala. The piece can also be considered a collection of symphonic poems. The second/third section, The Swan of Tuonela, is often heard separately (the work's inner movements are often reversed as their order is a subject of disagreement among scholars).
Lemminkäinen and the Maidens of the Island: this is based on Runo 29 ("Conquests") of the Kalevala, where Lemminkäinen travels to an island and seduces many of the women there, before fleeing the rage of the men on the island.
The Swan of Tuonela: this is the most popular of the four tone poems and often is featured alone from the suite in orchestral programs. It has a prominent cor anglais solo. The music paints a gossamer, transcendental image of a mystical swan swimming around Tuonela, the island of the dead. Lemminkäinen has been tasked with killing the sacred swan, but on the way he is shot with a poisoned arrow, and dies himself.
Lemminkäinen in Tuonela: this is based on Runos 14 ("Elk, horse, swan") and 15 ("Resurrection"). Lemminkäinen is in Tuonela, the land of the dead, to shoot the Swan of Tuonela to be able to claim the daughter of Louhi, mistress of the Northland, in marriage. However, the blind man of the Northland kills Lemminkäinen, whose body is then tossed in the river and then dismembered. Lemminkäinen's mother learns of his death, travels to Tuonela, recovers his body parts, reassembles him and restores him to life.
Lemminkäinen's Return: the storyline in the score roughly parallels the end of Runo 30 ("Jack Frost"), where after his adventures in battle, Lemminkäinen journeys home.
The above order of the movements matches their numbering within opus 22. However, Sibelius revised the order in 1947, transposing the middle two movements, which is the order in which most concert performances are played.
The suite is scored for two flutes (one doubling on the piccolo), two oboes (one doubling on the cor anglais), two clarinets (in B) (one doubling on bass clarinet), two basoons, four horns (in E and F), three trumpets (in E and F), three trombones, tuba, timpani, triangle, bass drum, cymbals, tambourine, harp, and strings.
[Article taken from Wikipedia]
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I just wanted to post something of an enthusiastic post about this work. What is everyone's favorite performance? I seem to prefer Segerstam, but I really like the new Lintu/Finnish RSO recording on Ondine, which has an almost Boulezian clarity and sharpness to it. Segerstam's approach is bit more Celibidache-like but with a majestic sweep and a thought-provoking Swan of Tuenola movement that often sends chills down my spine.
Link to the Segerstam performance:
[asin]B00000378L[/asin]
Well, I only have one performance - the Vanska one you just bought.
And I'm very happy with it.
I do have another Swan of Tuonela somewhere on a Naxos compilation, but that's it.
Quote from: orfeo on May 18, 2015, 05:23:45 AM
Well, I only have one performance - the Vanska one you just bought.
And I'm very happy with it.
I do have another Swan of Tuonela somewhere on a Naxos compilation, but that's it.
The Vanska is an excellent performance, but I still can't shake Segerstam from my memory. Colossal performance.
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2778/4334649125_6ea7d62a33_z.jpg?zz=1) (http://www.aarography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Finland-Scenic-Landscape-Nature-19.jpg)
Op. 63 Symphony no. 4 in A minor
1. Tempo molto moderato, quasi adagio, 2. Allegro molto vivace, 3. Il tempo largo, 4. Allegro. Completed in 1911; first performance in Helsinki on 3rd April 1911 (Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius).
The fourth symphony was once considered to be the strangest of Sibelius's symphonies, but today it is regarded as one of the peaks of his output. It has a density of expression, a chamber music-like transparency and a mastery of counterpoint that make it one of the most impressive manifestations of modernity from the period when it was written.
Sibelius had thoughts of a change of style while he was in Berlin in 1909. These ideas were still in his mind when he joined the artist Eero Järnefelt for a trip to Koli, the emblematic "Finnish mountain" in Karelia, close to Joensuu. The landscape of Koli was for Järnefelt an endless source of inspiration, and Sibelius said that he was going to listen to the "sighing of the winds and the roar of the storms". Indeed, the composer regarded his visit to Koli as one of the greatest experiences of his life. "Plans. La Montagne," he wrote in his diary on 27th September 1909.
The following year Sibelius was again travelling in Karelia, in Vyborg and Imatra, now acting as a guide to his friend and sponsor Rosa Newmarch. Newmarch later recollected how Sibelius eagerly strained his ears to hear the pedal points in the roar of Imatra's famous rapids and in other natural sounds.
The trip also had other objectives. On his return Sibelius wanted to develop his skills in counterpoint, since, as he put it, "the harmony is largely dependent on the purely musical patterning, its polyphony." His observations contained many ideas on the need for harmonic continuity. Since the orchestra lacked the pedal of the piano, Sibelius wanted to compensate for this with even more skilful orchestration.
Yet one more natural phenomenon – a storm in the south-eastern archipelago – was needed to get the symphonic work started. In addition, in November 1910 he was preparing the symphony at the same time as he was working on music for Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven, which he had promised to Aino Ackté. The Raven was never finished, but its atmosphere and sketches had an effect on the fourth symphony.
The symphony was performed for the first time on 3rd April 1911, in Helsinki. Its tone was both modern and introspective, and it confused the audience so much that the applause was subdued. "Evasive glances, shakes of the head, embarrassed or secretly ironic smiles. Not many came to the dressing room to deliver their congratulations," Aino Sibelius recollected later. The critics, too, were at a loss. "Everything was so strange," was how Heikki Klemetti described the atmosphere. In the years that followed audiences in many parts of the world reacted the same way.
However, Sibelius remained happy with the symphony and after the first public performance he prepared it for publication. Nowadays, the fourth symphony has come to be recognised as one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century and one of Sibelius's most magnificent achievements. It was, after all, contemporary music of the utmost modernity, a work from which all traces of aesthetisation or artificiality had been eliminated.
A kind of motto for the work is the augmented fourth, or tritone, which creates tension in all the four movements of the symphony. The atmosphere of the work varies from joyfulness to austere expressionism. Every movement fades into silence. We are as far as we could be from the triumphant finales of the second and third symphonies.
Indeed, the fourth symphony often seems to shock listeners, and analysis of the work can turn into philosophising. It is as if Sibelius were directly penetrating the merciless core of life, laying it bare without offering any kind of false consolation. He himself had felt close to death a few years earlier, when a tumour had been removed from his throat in an operation.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
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Quite simply a masterpiece (of many) for Sibelius. The brooding, ominous clouds create an overcast in this enigmatic symphony. I remember the first time I heard it (Colin Davis/BSO) and I thought to myself "Okay, what the heck is this supposed to be or what is it trying to convey? Why is this music so gloomy?" It took me some time to fully appreciate the work. I think my 'breakthrough' with the work was HvK's excellent account (w/ the Berliners) on Deutsche Grammophon. From that time forward, it just started really sinking in for me. Of course, I now have many favorites besides HvK: Segerstam/Helsinki, Vanska/Lahti, Berglund/Helsinki, etc.
Please discuss your favorite performances and why this symphony is so enjoyable for you.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 10:20:32 AM
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2778/4334649125_6ea7d62a33_z.jpg?zz=1) (http://www.aarography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Finland-Scenic-Landscape-Nature-19.jpg)
Op. 63 Symphony no. 4 in A minor
1. Tempo molto moderato, quasi adagio, 2. Allegro molto vivace, 3. Il tempo largo, 4. Allegro. Completed in 1911; first performance in Helsinki on 3rd April 1911 (Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius).
The fourth symphony was once considered to be the strangest of Sibelius's symphonies, but today it is regarded as one of the peaks of his output. It has a density of expression, a chamber music-like transparency and a mastery of counterpoint that make it one of the most impressive manifestations of modernity from the period when it was written.
Sibelius had thoughts of a change of style while he was in Berlin in 1909. These ideas were still in his mind when he joined the artist Eero Järnefelt for a trip to Koli, the emblematic "Finnish mountain" in Karelia, close to Joensuu. The landscape of Koli was for Järnefelt an endless source of inspiration, and Sibelius said that he was going to listen to the "sighing of the winds and the roar of the storms". Indeed, the composer regarded his visit to Koli as one of the greatest experiences of his life. "Plans. La Montagne," he wrote in his diary on 27th September 1909.
The following year Sibelius was again travelling in Karelia, in Vyborg and Imatra, now acting as a guide to his friend and sponsor Rosa Newmarch. Newmarch later recollected how Sibelius eagerly strained his ears to hear the pedal points in the roar of Imatra's famous rapids and in other natural sounds.
The trip also had other objectives. On his return Sibelius wanted to develop his skills in counterpoint, since, as he put it, "the harmony is largely dependent on the purely musical patterning, its polyphony." His observations contained many ideas on the need for harmonic continuity. Since the orchestra lacked the pedal of the piano, Sibelius wanted to compensate for this with even more skilful orchestration.
Yet one more natural phenomenon – a storm in the south-eastern archipelago – was needed to get the symphonic work started. In addition, in November 1910 he was preparing the symphony at the same time as he was working on music for Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven, which he had promised to Aino Ackté. The Raven was never finished, but its atmosphere and sketches had an effect on the fourth symphony.
The symphony was performed for the first time on 3rd April 1911, in Helsinki. Its tone was both modern and introspective, and it confused the audience so much that the applause was subdued. "Evasive glances, shakes of the head, embarrassed or secretly ironic smiles. Not many came to the dressing room to deliver their congratulations," Aino Sibelius recollected later. The critics, too, were at a loss. "Everything was so strange," was how Heikki Klemetti described the atmosphere. In the years that followed audiences in many parts of the world reacted the same way.
However, Sibelius remained happy with the symphony and after the first public performance he prepared it for publication. Nowadays, the fourth symphony has come to be recognised as one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century and one of Sibelius's most magnificent achievements. It was, after all, contemporary music of the utmost modernity, a work from which all traces of aesthetisation or artificiality had been eliminated.
A kind of motto for the work is the augmented fourth, or tritone, which creates tension in all the four movements of the symphony. The atmosphere of the work varies from joyfulness to austere expressionism. Every movement fades into silence. We are as far as we could be from the triumphant finales of the second and third symphonies.
Indeed, the fourth symphony often seems to shock listeners, and analysis of the work can turn into philosophising. It is as if Sibelius were directly penetrating the merciless core of life, laying it bare without offering any kind of false consolation. He himself had felt close to death a few years earlier, when a tumour had been removed from his throat in an operation.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
James would be proud of your copy-paste skills... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2015, 01:00:44 PM
James would be proud of your copy-paste skills... ;D ;D ;D
:P At least, I add my own comments at the end of these articles. He just posted pictures and commentary from someone else with none of his own.
Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2015, 01:00:44 PM
James would be proud of your copy-paste skills... ;D ;D ;D
At least MI acknowledges it. :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 18, 2015, 04:27:36 PM
At least MI acknowledges it. :)
;D
So what is your favorite performance of
Symphony No. 4 in A minor and why, DD?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 05:10:01 PM
;D
So what is your favorite performance of Symphony No. 4 in A minor and why, DD?
Mine is probably Herbie. It's bleak without sounding likes it's trying to be bleak. I credit Karajan's usual mastery of the architecture of a piece. Because of this it flows and coheres, so it never sounds like, hmmm let's make some bleak sounds here.
Like Karl Amadeus Hartmann does.
Quote from: Ken B on May 18, 2015, 06:15:54 PM
Mine is probably Herbie. It's bleak without sounding likes it's trying to be bleak. I credit Karajan's usual mastery of the architecture of a piece. Because of this it flows and coheres, so it never sounds like, hmmm let's make some bleak sounds here. Like Karl Amadeus Hartmann does.
That's pretty much what I've gathered from the many listens of HvK's performance. Again, the Finns are spectacular for me as well: Vanska/Lahti, Segerstam/Helsinki, and Berglund/Helsinki.
The Oceanides, Op. 73
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1c/cd/9d/1ccd9d5eb12f6c232761ebf1e3e18427.jpg) (http://uploads8.wikiart.org/images/isaac-levitan/sea-by-the-coasts-of-finland-1896.jpg)
Op. 73 Aallottaret (The Oceanides), symphonic poem. Version 1, 1913 (?).
First movement of 1st version missing. First public performance of the 2nd and 3rd movements in Lahti 19th and 20th September 2002.
2nd version in 1914; first performance in Lahti 24th October 2002 (Lahti Symphony Orchestra under Osmo Vänskä). Version 2 (in D flat major), April 1914. First performance in Lahti, 24th October 2002 (Lahti Symphony Orchestra under Osmo Vänskä). Final version (in D major), May 1914. First performance in Norfolk (USA), 4th June 1914 (conducted by Jean Sibelius).
The Oceanides ("sea nymphs"; in Finnish Aallottaret or "nymphs of the waves") was written for the Norfolk Music Festival in the United States. It resulted from a commission by Horatio Parker, who was acting on the authorisation of the millionaire and festival promoter Carl Stoeckel and his wife. In 1913 Sibelius started to prepare the work, initially as a suite in three movements. The first movement of the suite has not survived but the second and third movements were performed for the first time as unexpected encores in the autumn of 2002, at the Lahti Sibelius festival under Osmo Vänskä.
The movements are sketchy and their orchestration may be incomplete. The thematic material of The Oceanides is clearly recognisable in the third movement. The second movement is more heterogeneous, and material from it ended up in other compositions. Sibelius wrote on the sketches: "Fragments of a suite for orchestra (Precursor to 'The Oceanides')". Nevertheless, the sketch-like movements are good and interesting music in their own right.
In the spring of 1914 Sibelius prepared a one-movement orchestral work in D flat major from the material. He sent it to the United States on 3rd April. Sibelius considered giving the composition a German title, but in a copyist's receipt from 3rd April the name is already Aallottaret (The Oceanides). Along with the score Sibelius sent a brief explanation in German of what Aallottaret means in Finnish mythology.
Only a few days later Sibelius was asked, if he could come to the United States and conduct the work. He answered in the affirmative. At the same time, he decided to revise the composition, as we know from Aino Sibelius's diary. She writes as follows:
"I am very nervous about that journey, although I see how Janne can benefit from it. And it may be such fun! Janne is rewriting the whole American composition, Aallottaret, as it is called at least for the time being. It is so exhausting for me, but I understand him.Today we have been thinking of adding to the programme for America. Half of the concert programme falls to Janne."
In May the composition temporarily had a German name once again. Aino Sibelius describes the feverish process of copying the music:
"(14th May) The journey to America is approaching. Rondeau der Wellen is not yet completed. Feverish hurry. The journey has been scheduled for Saturday. The score is still unfinished. The copyist, Mr. Kauppi, lives with us and writes day and night. Yesterday we learnt that he has to leave already on Friday evening. It's indescribable. It was a question of using every last hour. Besides, the whole practical side is completely unprepared. This can work only with Janne's energy. Otherwise the journey would be completely out of question. (...)
"Yesterday evening we couldn't accomplish anything practical anymore, but then Janne forced himself to work with his great strength. There are still about twenty pages missing. We lit the lamps in the dining-room, the chandelier in the drawing room, it was a solemn moment. I did not dare to say anything. I just tried to create a pleasant environment. Then I went to bed and Janne stayed awake. All night long I kept hearing his steps, sometimes quiet playing. Towards morning he had moved upstairs. The copyist was awake in his own chamber. It is morning now. The tension continues, there are many things to be done today. If I just could stay very calm, it is the only way in which I can now be of any use."
Sibelius was able to take the new score in D major with him on the journey. He made a few corrections to it, inspired by the sea voyage. But why was it necessary to change the fully prepared D flat major version into a version in D major? The composer Kalevi Aho believes that the reasons were connected with the practicalities of performance and technique:
"In D flat major the string players can hardly use any open strings at all, and because the work is very swift-moving in places, it is very difficult for the strings, both technically and in terms of getting a clear tone. In contrast, D major is a very rewarding key for the violins because you can always use open strings in the swift figures. On the other hand, the orchestral tone in D flat major is veiled, somehow mysterious and impressionistic. Compared with it D major sounds clearer, but also more matter-of-fact. Maybe Sibelius was afraid of the reaction of the musicians to technically difficult music in D flat major and that was why he changed the key and rewrote the work once again. I don't think that purely musical weaknesses would have required a new version in this case."
In Aho's opinion the change of key and the simplification of a few details made the work easier to perform, but at the same time the composition lost "something essential" as regards the sound quality.
In the United States Sibelius realised at the rehearsals that the work was demanding enough for the musicians even in D major. According to Carl Stoeckel The Oceanides was very different from anything the musicians had played previously.
Nevertheless, the concert was a splendid success. Indeed, the audience wept with emotion during Finlandia and Valse triste. The critics, too, were exultant and the composer himself was enthusiastic:
"Up till now I have never (...) conducted another orchestra made up of so many skilful musicians as that orchestra of a hundred players that Mr. Stoeckel got together from Boston and from the New York Metropolitan Opera. For example, in The Oceanides I achieved a build-up that, to a very great degree, surprised even myself.
In The Oceanides Sibelius utilises Debussy's impressionist tone world. It should be remembered, however, that this aspect had already become apparent in the musical language of Sibelius, in such early orchestral works as Kullervo and Lemminkäinen in Tuonela.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
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If you've followed the few posts I've made, I'm simply posting about my 'Top 5 Favorite Sibelius' works. ;) Anyway, I love The Oceanides and I think it catches the composer in a different kind of compositional mood. The shimmering waves and undercurrent of the ocean are deeply felt in this work. One of the most exquisite works of tone-painting I've ever heard. I would say my current favorite performance is Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine for the reason that I think he allows the music to speak for itself. He flexes out some of the tempi here and there, but this is an incredible performance. I also love Vanska's with the Lahti SO on BIS.
What about you guys?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 05:10:01 PM
So what is your favorite performance of Symphony No. 4 in A minor and why, DD?
Vanska with Barbirolli a surprisingly close second. Vanska for his ability to zero in on the electrifyingly cold heart of the piece and Barbirolli for the way he lures us right out onto the plank but keeps us blindly oblivious to the doom that lies ahead.
Both are extremely well played, too.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 18, 2015, 09:37:51 PM
Vanska with Barbirolli a surprisingly close second. Vanska for his ability to zero in on the electrifyingly cold heart of the piece and Barbirolli for the way he lures us right out onto the plank but keeps us blindly oblivious to the doom that lies ahead.
Both are extremely well played, too.
I really need to revisit Barbirolli's Sibelius cycle. I initially didn't enjoy it, but it's been ages since I've heard a single note from it. Vanska is obviously a fave of mine, too. Nice descriptions of the two interpretations.
I still think Sibelius's greatest tone poem (and composition for that matter) is Pohjola's daughter. Glittering like a vein or nugget of pure gold, achieving extremely much in a quarter of an hour. Even Richard Strauss could learn from that! Not that I am against giant tone poems in any way. It's just, my God, this work more than anything else fits Sibelius's comment "One must live every note". There is not a single note in that work that shouldn't be there.
Quote from: Ken B on May 18, 2015, 06:15:54 PM
Mine is probably Herbie. It's bleak without sounding likes it's trying to be bleak. I credit Karajan's usual mastery of the architecture of a piece. Because of this it flows and coheres, so it never sounds like, hmmm let's make some bleak sounds here. Like Karl Amadeus Hartmann does.
In the spirit of
it would be a funny world if we all heard music the same . . . and understanding, too, that I cannot necessarily retrace my ear's steps, to mix metaphors . . . the first recording I ever heard of the
Fourth was the
HvK, and I came away from that experience thinking the worst of the piece. The
Maazel/Vienna recording fully "rehabilitated" the piece in my ears, and I have since gone back to the
HvK without minding it much 8)
My favorites would probably be
Maazel/Vienna,
Blomstedt/SFSO,
Lenny/NY Phil. But at this stage, I almost never hear a recording of the
Op.63 that I don't like.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 09:30:45 PM
If you've followed the few posts I've made, I'm simply posting about my 'Top 5 Favorite Sibelius' works. ;) Anyway, I love The Oceanides and I think it catches the composer in a different kind of compositional mood. The shimmering waves and undercurrent of the ocean are deeply felt in this work. One of the most exquisite works of tone-painting I've ever heard. I would say my current favorite performance is Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine for the reason that I think he allows the music to speak for itself. He flexes out some of the tempi here and there, but this is an incredible performance. I also love Vanska's with the Lahti SO on BIS.
What about you guys?
Segerstam/Helsinki was my
entrée to the piece . . . I was going to add "and still my favorite," but now I wonder if in fact I have heard any other recording . . . true it is, I've felt no need for another.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2015, 03:37:06 AM
In the spirit of it would be a funny world if we all heard music the same . . . and understanding, too, that I cannot necessarily retrace my ear's steps, to mix metaphors . . . the first recording I ever heard of the Fourth was the HvK, and I came away from that experience thinking the worst of the piece. The Maazel/Vienna recording fully "rehabilitated" the piece in my ears, and I have since gone back to the HvK without minding it much 8)
My favorites would probably be Maazel/Vienna, Blomstedt/SFSO, Lenny/NY Phil. But at this stage, I almost never hear a recording of the Op.63 that I don't like.
Have you heard
Vänskä/Lahti,
Karl? Along with
Maazel/Vienna, it's my favourite recording of the piece.
I will need to hear the original version of
Oceanides.
Quote from: North Star on May 19, 2015, 04:25:52 AM
Have you heard Vänskä/Lahti, Karl?
Not yet,
Karlo, but there's no reason not to give it a spin this Boston morning!
Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2015, 04:40:44 AM
Not yet, Karlo, but there's no reason not to give it a spin this Boston morning!
Excellent, looking forward to your comments. :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2015, 05:38:51 AM
No, I prefer a realistic, concert hall balance with the soloist integrated not spotlit or jumbo-sized.
Ditto.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2015, 07:38:03 AM
...the orchestra in the crescendo passages leaves him in the dust sonically speaking.
That's what having a
realistic, concert hall balance means. That's how it sounds like in the concert hall. A realistically recorded violin concerto does not have the violin grotesquely amplified and able to rise above the whole brass section. Furthermore, the dynamic range of this recording is huge and that's where the listening equipment also becomes an issue. Tinny computer speakers or headphones, for instance, are not ideal; a good pair of loudspeakers is what's really needed to appreciate its awesome soundscape.
Quote from: Wanderer on May 19, 2015, 05:16:58 AM
That's what having a realistic, concert hall balance means. That's how it sounds like in the concert hall. A realistically recorded violin concerto does not have the violin grotesquely amplified and able to rise above the whole brass section. Furthermore, the dynamic range of this recording is huge and that's where the listening equipment also becomes an issue. Tinny computer speakers or headphones, for instance, are not ideal; a good pair of loudspeakers is what's really needed to appreciate its awesome soundscape.
And etymologically, the Italian
concerto includes an element of struggle, strife . . . one could argue that the Romantics later overdid the matter, but the soloist should not perhaps expect to coast to an easy victory 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2015, 05:19:13 AM
And etymologically, the Italian concerto includes an element of struggle, strife . . . one could argue that the Romantics later overdid the matter, but the soloist should not perhaps expect to coast to an easy victory 8)
Exactly. 8)
Quote from: Alberich on May 19, 2015, 03:22:13 AM
I still think Sibelius's greatest tone poem (and composition for that matter) is Pohjola's daughter. Glittering like a vein or nugget of pure gold, achieving extremely much in a quarter of an hour. Even Richard Strauss could learn from that! Not that I am against giant tone poems in any way. It's just, my God, this work more than anything else fits Sibelius's comment "One must live every note". There is not a single note in that work that shouldn't be there.
That's how I feel about
Pohjola's Daughter minus I think it's his 'greatest' over all the others. Every note has purpose in Sibelius' music and I've really come to appreciate this aspect of his music. What's your favorite performance of
Pohjola's Daughter?
Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2015, 03:37:06 AM
In the spirit of it would be a funny world if we all heard music the same . . . and understanding, too, that I cannot necessarily retrace my ear's steps, to mix metaphors . . . the first recording I ever heard of the Fourth was the HvK, and I came away from that experience thinking the worst of the piece. The Maazel/Vienna recording fully "rehabilitated" the piece in my ears, and I have since gone back to the HvK without minding it much 8)
My favorites would probably be Maazel/Vienna, Blomstedt/SFSO, Lenny/NY Phil. But at this stage, I almost never hear a recording of the Op.63 that I don't like.
I should revisit Maazel's Vienna cycle and Blomstedt's as well. As for the never hearing a recording of the 4th that I don't like, as long as the conductor is attuned to the music as well as the orchestra --- it'd be hard for me to disagree with that statement.
Quote from: Wanderer on May 19, 2015, 05:16:58 AMThat's what having a realistic, concert hall balance means. That's how it sounds like in the concert hall. A realistically recorded violin concerto does not have the violin grotesquely amplified and able to rise above the whole brass section. Furthermore, the dynamic range of this recording is huge and that's where the listening equipment also becomes an issue. Tinny computer speakers or headphones, for instance, are not ideal; a good pair of loudspeakers is what's really needed to appreciate its awesome soundscape.
I do a lot of headphone listening, so perhaps I should give the Kavakos/Vanska performance a listen through my stereo at some point.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2015, 06:24:34 AM
What's your favorite performance of Pohjola's Daughter?
Segerstam gives a magnificent one in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hbNeq0qy8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hbNeq0qy8)
Pohjola's daughter is actually one of Sibelius's longer tone poems, contrary what I may have implied, about 15 minutes, like I said. But still, at 15 minutes, all that. Wow. Of course most of Strauss's tone poems are longer, at least his later ones. Yet Sibelius manages to completely satisfy me, even though Daughter is barely one third of a length of Alpensinfonie. Sibelius and Strauss are among the greatest in the field of tone poem. Pohjola's daughter often is called that one Sibelius work closest to Strauss's musical language.
And lets post these (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3398.msg894410.html#msg894410) here as well:
Quote from: The Cambridge Companion to SibeliusFeldman raised Sibelius in connection with one specific work of his own, the orchestral piece Coptic Light (1985). His programme note explains that 'An important aspect of the composition was prompted by Sibelius's observation that the orchestra deffers mainly from the piano in that it has no pedal. With this in mind, I set to work to create an orchestral pedal continually varying in nuance. [...] Thus the whole form of Coptic Light could be seen as an illustration of Hepokoski's definition of rotational forms in Sibelius as a set of varied restatements around a central material, the last of which links up with the harmonic area of the openng. At once static and continuously evolving, Coptic Light is an unexpected instance of Sibelius's effect on one of the most unusual and innovative recent works composed for orchestral in the last two decades.
Quoted in the same book:
Quote from: Magnus LindbergI have often said that it is a pity that Sibelius was Finnish! His music has been deeply misunderstood. While his language was far from modern, his thinking, as far as form and treatment of materials is concerned, was ahead of its time. While Varèse is credited with opening the way for new sonorities, Sibelius has himself pursued a profound reassessment of the formal and structural problems of composition. I do not think it is fair that he has been considered as a conservative . . His harmonies have a resonant, almost spectral quality. You find an attention to sonority in Sibelius works which is actually not so far removed from that which would appear long after in the work of Grisey or Murail . . . For me, the crucial aspect of his work remains his conception of continuity. In Tapiola, above all, the way genuine processes are created using very limited materials is pretty exceptional.
Quote from: North Star on May 19, 2015, 04:51:06 AM
Excellent, looking forward to your comments. :)
Delicious, especially the oboes in the
Il tempo largo. More comment later!
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32
(http://www.thisfamilytree.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/forest_fire.jpg) (http://www.topnews.in/files/crown_fire.jpg)
Op. 32 Tulen synty (The Origin of Fire) for baritone, male choir and orchestra; words from Kalevala. First version 1902; first performance in Helsinki, 9th February 1902 (Abraham Ojanperä, "Jubilee Choir", Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius). Final version 1910, piano score 1910.
The Origin of Fire was Sibelius's contribution to the opening of the National Theatre in 1902. It is definitely one Sibelius's best works for choir and orchestra since Kullervo, which had been completed ten years earlier.
The 47th rune of Kalevala stirred Sibelius's patriotic feelings. It mentioned a dark night, which could be understood to reflect the feelings of the people under the rule of Governor-General Bobrikov. The rune ends with a description of the origin of fire. This was seen to symbolise the awakening of the people.
The first public performance on 9th April 1902 was only part of a very long Christmas programme. Päivälehti published the lyrics of the work the following day, commenting only that "the magnificent work made a powerful impact on the audience"..
The work remained in the repertoire and was performed regularly in Finland in the years that followed. Sibelius understood the value of his work and revised it eight years later. The dark and severe composition shows considerable skill in the baritone, choir and orchestral parts, although Erik Tawaststjerna thought their were some stereotypical elements in the solutions the composer arrived at. The work shows a side of Sibelius that combines patriotism with real compositional interest.
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For me, this is a mature Sibelius work even though it's still relatively early in his oeuvre. There are two versions of this work. I prefer the original version due to the longer introduction which really adds to the grim atmosphere. The orchestration is also more sparse, which gives more of an impression of a desolate landscape. The baritone part, IMHO, predates what sounds like many parts of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 14. The revised version features some different orchestration and bit of a different structure, but I think some of the original sound was lost, but, still, this is prime Sibelius and anyone who loves this composer should definitely check this work out. It only exists in two recordings (if I'm not mistaken): Vanska and Berglund. I haven't heard the Berglund.
Tulen Synty is one of many Sibelius's works that deserves to be much better known. Here's the revised version on YT, as unfortunately I don't think the original is there.
(In the article quoted by MI John, 'rune' is an appalling mistranslation of 'runo', which is Finnish for 'poem'.)
https://www.youtube.com/v/3S_ItXpjWNE
And I'll also repost this from the
Mahler vs.
Sibelius thread here:
Quote from: Luke on May 19, 2015, 12:52:00 PMBut I think you are downplaying the importance of the textures in Sibelius/Feldman here - by saying 'the point is what the music is doing' there is the implication that the textures are merely the dressing draped over what you rightly diagnose as vitally important approach to development (Sibelius) or otherwise (Feldman).
IMO in Sibelius the orchestral textures - so unlike anything else composed before him - are an integrated part of that special way he has of keeping the music moving forward, of binding momentum with cohesion, development with stasis; the inevitable, glacial, elemental nature of the development is derived to a large extent through the way it plays out texturally, the way these frozen blocks of sound somehow manage to be both static and evolving... These textures are vital, then, IMO - as much 'the point' of the music as the developments which work their way through them and which depends upon them. So the fact that Feldman's textures are often similar to Sibelius's whilst the development is stripped away seems to me rather interesting.
Hear, hear, and here are some more bits from the
The Cambridge Companion to Sibelius - also touching on the static nature in some of the music.
Quote from: p. 198"The other factor in Sibelius that attracted the spectral composers was his strangely distended timing. The passage from Tapiola cited in Ex. 13.1 lasts an abnormally long time -nearly a whole minute. The rotating chromatic storm near the end of the same work lasts even longer. The Tempest prelude lasts over three minutes. During all such textures, any clear sense of harmonic direction is virtually suspended in a manner not found in any other music prior to 1960. Furthermore, Sibelius's habit, even in supposedly developmental setions, of simply letting a melodic-rhythmic cell grow progressively by gradual changes - bypassing the dialectical tension of developing variation - also results in a sense of organic transformation through large areas of time. Whilst not static (unlike the 'sound sheets'), these passages convey to the listener a keen sense of time being stretched out as the transformations take on a life of their own, heedless of traditional symphonic rhetoric. Such passages are found very frequently in the last three symphonies and Tapiola (which, in any case, reduces all melodic activity to the curvilinear oscillation stated at its opening).
Quote from: p. 200The percussion writing in Saturne might superficially remind one of Varèse - but close listening reveals quite readily that it consists of detailed, quasi-canonic figures which are nearer in their sequential, propulsive effect to a Sibelius string tremolo texture. The harmonic substance of the music - on the electronic instruments - is crammed into the extreme treble and bass without any secure middle-range writing. Here the electronic instruments create a mixture of harmony and timbre which is strongly reminiscent of the dense screen of sound from Tapiola in Ex. 13.1.11
Such slowly transforming aural screens are common in the works of other Itinéraire composers, notably Grisey, who was also interested in Sibelius at this period.12 This can clearly be detected in the second section of Partiels (1975), which forms a very gradual transition from the extreme bass instruments of the ensemble to octave Es in the middle and high register, dominated by string harmonies (another Tapiola texture). The parallel second section in Grisey's orchestral work Transitoires (1981) is even more radically dark in spacing and scoring, and its timing still more distended. Sibelius helped to de-gallicise the sound world of the spectralists, opening their ears to a rougher kind of orchestration as well as pointing away from the established habits of thinking in isolated blocs sonores prevalent in Messiaen and Boulez.
Murail's orchestral work Gondwana (1980) even incorporates a substantial passage directly modelled upon a Sibelius piece [...] Lemminkäinen in Tuonela from [...] Op. 22 (1896). The principal texture of the piece consists of wave-like ascending string tremolos answered by circuitously descending woodwind lines, the two meeting in a culminating brass and drumm chord in the middle register; this sequence is repeated many times with variations in the duration of each part as the piece works up to a main climax. This procedure was borrowed, with obvious differences in harmonic and orchestrational syntax, for the central development section of Gondwana, starting at bar 50, pp. 27-30 (which leads to the climax of the work). Murail took both the wave-patterning and the orchestration from Sibelius's piece and recreated them in his own terms; the complex harmony is derived from the sum and difference tones of frequency modulation, incorporating quarter-tones, and the rhythmic language is more irregular and fluid in its details. The effect, however, is clearly analoguous, whist not superficially Sibelian to the innocent.
Quote from: pp. 214-15George Benjamin's At First Light (1982) for chamber orchestra reflects his own enthusiasm for Sibelius's bass writing by making reference to Tapiola at the violent opening of his own work's second movement. The passage being referred to here is just before the the brief Mendelssohnian scherzo of the work, at Fig. F in Tapiola, a slow, chromatically winding progression scored for low clarinets, bass clarinet, bassoons, contrabassoons and timpani. These extremely dark chords are magnified in Benjamin's piece into a series of crushed, harsh progressions for bass clarinet, bassoon, low horn, trombone, cello and double bass emphasizing similar intervals to the Sibelius - low tritones, fourths and fifths. The chord progressions between these are similarly a semitone apart, here emphasized by numerous glissandi between them, and at one point they almost quote the lower voice progressions of the passage in Tapiola. The effect is an exaggeration of the Sibelius, bringing it closer to the world of Varèse and, indeed, electro-acoustic music. Not coincidentally, At First Light also marks the closest Benjamin has ever come to writing spectral music.
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5145/5689959596_90a956a42d_z.jpg)
The Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52, by Jean Sibelius is a symphony in three movements composed in 1907. Coming between the romantic intensity of Sibelius's first two symphonies and the more austere complexity of his later symphonies, it is a good-natured, triumphal, and deceptively simple-sounding piece. The symphony's first performance was given by the Helsinki Philharmonic Society, conducted by the composer, on 25 September 1907. In the same concert, his suite from the incidental music to Belshazzar's Feast, Op. 51, was also performed for the first time.
The first recording featured the Finnish conductor Robert Kajanus and the London Symphony Orchestra, for the HMV label in January 1934.
The Third symphony represents a turning point in Sibelius's symphonic output. His First and Second symphonies are grandiose Romantic and patriotic works. The Third, however, shows a distinct, almost Classical desire to contain the largest amount of musical material in the fewest possible melodic figures, harmonies, and durations. This musical economy is most apparent in the first movement, almost reminiscent of Beethoven in its clear and cleanly developed sections. A typical performance runs slightly under half an hour. The piece is scored for an orchestra including 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets (in Bb and A), 2 bassoons, 4 horns (in F), 2 trumpets (in Bb), 3 trombones, timpani, and strings.
I. Allegro moderato
II. Andantino con moto, quasi allegretto
III. Moderato – Allegro ma non tanto
The symphony opens with a strident and rhythmic melody in the cellos and double basses, after the announcement of which the brass and the remaining strings enter the scene in turn. The C-F♯ tritone, which plays such an important role in both this and the next symphony, is clearly articulated and emphasised as early as the beginning of bar 15 by a rinforzando marking. A lilting, almost folk-like flute solo gives way to a triumphant horn call over brush-like strings in the first of three major climaxes in the first movement. After this rush of sound, the gentle serenity of the opening is recalled by the cellos once again, but this time in a more vulnerable and sostenuto manner in the more remote key of B minor.
From this point, the music gently winds down. Then, a succession of woodwind instruments recall the second cello melody over soft string scales, which repeatedly recall the opening of the movement. The tension grows and finally explodes into the opening theme, underscored by timpani, and the violins flit their way over a pulsating cushion of brass-and-woodwind chorales and offbeat pizzicatos in the cellos. The flute theme is once again recalled, and the second cello theme is finally brought to life by the entire orchestra; played in the string section, the timpani and woodwind provide rhythmic material while more brass chorales are sustained throughout the section.
The music once again winds down, but this time, before it is let go completely, a glorious flute and horn chorale lead into more recollections of past themes, which have the last word before this phenomenal movement closes in a manner that is brilliant in its simplicity: two two-chord "Amen" cadences (plagal cadences) in E minor (a chord of A minor followed by a chord of E minor), which, because there is no F in either chord, leave the F-F♯ dichotomy (set up by the C-F♯ tritone near the beginning of the work) unresolved; this dichotomy is then finally resolved (for the time-being at least) by a single plagal cadence in C (F major, then C major).
The opening of the second movement is a nocturne, a movement of supreme clarity and austere romantics, seemingly contradictory, but immediately accessible; the first section almost waltzes out of the pervading darkness, but, in a constrained manner, the music refuses to do so. Commentators disagree over exactly what form the structure of this movement represents; however the four appearances of the theme with developmental episodes suggest a kind of rondo. After the extended introduction, a brief moment of lightness gives way to the string section taking over the theme, with woodwinds and horns providing masterful, touching comments. The music is propelled to the end by perpetual cello pizzicatos, and then the second movement ends in several string pulses where the midnight waltz grinds to a halt in which the tune is still almost recognizable.
The last movement is really two movements compacted into a single finale. Sibelius described it as 'the crystallisation of chaos'. The opening contains thematic fragments from previous material and of material yet to come. A hushed, tense scherzo breaks into a triumphant chorale (with prominent C-F♯ tritone) which is repeated several times. The coda brings the chorale-type theme into greater and greater expanses, until at long last the symphony concludes in a compendium of the chorale theme and a rush of string figures and woodwind scales. The cadence brings the piece to an almost abrupt halt with a single, arpeggiated C major triad in the brass. The piece is relatively short, usually lasting about 31 minutes.
[Article taken from Wikipedia]
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The more I listen to Symphony No. 3, the more I love it. It's certainly underrated amongst the symphony cycle. I don't know why, but I always associate sunrise and just the general feeling of morning time with this work. It has quite a majestic sweep to it and the rhythmic vitality of the introduction never fails to impress me on a visceral level. As for performances: any of the Finns will do, especially Vanska, Berglund, and Segerstam.
What do you guys think of this symphony?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2015, 03:10:37 PMThe more I listen to Symphony No. 3, the more I love it. It's certainly underrated amongst the symphony cycle. I don't know why, but I always associate sunrise and just the general feeling of morning time with this work. It has quite a majestic sweep to it and the rhythmic vitality of the introduction never fail to impress me just on a visceral level. As for performances: any of the Finns will do, especially Vanska, Berglund, and Segerstam.
What do you guys think of this symphony?
There's another Finn who does well in this symphony: Olli Mustonen. The Helsinki Festival Orchestra lacks the heft of larger orchestras but it isn't exactly scrawny, either. It's sort of a hybrid sound. Hybrid or whatever the sound is distinctive and it seems a good fit for Sibelius's "sun" symphony (great description). (And the Hindemith gets high marks, too).
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Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 19, 2015, 06:48:51 PM
There's another Finn who does well in this symphony: Olli Mustonen. The Helsinki Festival Orchestra lacks the heft of larger orchestras but it isn't exactly scrawny, either. It's sort of a hybrid sound. Hybrid or whatever the sound is distinctive and it seems a good fit for Sibelius's "sun" symphony (great description). (And the Hindemith gets high marks, too).
[asin]B00009IAY3[/asin]
Thanks, DD. :) I've seen this performance for many years but never bought for one reason or another. I suppose the main one is I seem to collect complete, or partial, cycles of these symphonies rather than individual releases. I'll have to check it out at some point. I'm going to take a break from posting about individual works, as my buddy Karlo (North Star), suggested I do --- that way these posts don't get 'lost'.
So far I've posted about:
Lemminkainen Suite,
Symphony No. 4,
The Oceanides,
The Origin of Fire, and
Symphony No. 3. I think what I'll try to do is post about one work per week. I must keep my James copy-and-paste skills in-check. ;) ;D
Mustonen is one of the best musician around today, as pianist, conductor and composer.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 19, 2015, 06:48:51 PM
There's another Finn who does well in this symphony: Olli Mustonen. The Helsinki Festival Orchestra lacks the heft of larger orchestras but it isn't exactly scrawny, either. It's sort of a hybrid sound. Hybrid or whatever the sound is distinctive and it seems a good fit for Sibelius's "sun" symphony (great description). (And the Hindemith gets high marks, too).
This is an extraordinary performance! It's like no other in its bright, snappy, neoclassical bent: the first movement is almost motoric. Exciting, too. One of the most original interpretations out there.
Quote from: springrite on May 19, 2015, 07:01:28 PM
Mustonen is one of the best musician around today, as pianist, conductor and composer.
Yes, agreed. I know him almost exclusively through his solo piano recordings (this Sibelius disc excepted) and he is a thrillingly individual artist. Wish he'd record more solo piano....*sigh*....
Quote from: Brian on May 19, 2015, 07:05:16 PM
This is an extraordinary performance! It's like no other in its bright, snappy, neoclassical bent: the first movement is almost motoric. Exciting, too. One of the most original interpretations out there.
Spot-on, Brian!
I think that 'Sibelius becomes Sibelius' in Symphony 3. I love the last movement, especially as conducted by Simon Rattle on EMI. I love the photo in John's post - reminds me of my wonderful visit to Finland in 2013 and, not least, the unforgettable visit to Sibelius's house.
Still loving the third and I've always defended it, as well as sixth symphony, according To sibelius.fi those two Are the least performed. Glad To see you appreciate the origin of fire. It has been recorded only twice? ???
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2015, 01:26:59 AM
Still loving the third and I've always defended it, as well as sixth symphony, according To sibelius.fi those two Are the least performed. Glad To see you appreciate the origin of fire. It has been recorded only twice? ???
Most of the time, the
Sixth is my favorite of the seven. I do like all the seven, though, and a great deal. Curiously, we had the pleasure of hearing the
Third played here in
Symphony Hall (and I have not by any means heard all seven in live performance).
I still have a funny relationship with the third. The finale is still something I don't entirely get, although I'm progressing. I don't know whether it's because I struggle with the form, or whether the only performance I have (Ashkenazy) struggles.
Whereas the first movement is one of my very favourite individual movements by anyone, ever. It is so perfectly, logically formed. And everything that's been quoted in recent posts about Sibelius' handling of pace - which is one of the things that makes him such a special composer - is beautifully illustrated for me in that first movement.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 19, 2015, 10:49:28 PM
I think that 'Sibelius becomes Sibelius' in Symphony 3. I love the last movement, especially as conducted by Simon Rattle on EMI. I love the photo in John's post - reminds me of my wonderful visit to Finland in 2013 and, not least, the unforgettable visit to Sibelius's house.
I agree that the 3rd
feels like Sibelius is reaching for his later style. This symphony was completed in 1907 and just think the 4th would be completed four years later. I bet that trip to Finland was memorable and visiting Ainola must have been a dream come true.
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2015, 01:26:59 AM
Still loving the third and I've always defended it, as well as sixth symphony, according To sibelius.fi those two Are the least performed. Glad To see you appreciate the origin of fire. It has been recorded only twice? ???
No, I'm wrong (per usual),
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32 has been recorded three times: Jarvi/Gothenburg, Vanska/Lahti, and Berglund/Helsinki PO.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2015, 01:32:42 AM
Most of the time, the Sixth is my favorite of the seven. I do like all the seven, though, and a great deal. Curiously, we had the pleasure of hearing the Third played here in Symphony Hall (and I have not by any means heard all seven in live performance).
I like all seven as well with the 3rd through the 7th being absolute favorites. I bet the 3rd sounded fantastic with the BSO. Do you remember who the conductor was, Karl?
Quote from: orfeo on May 20, 2015, 05:36:59 AM
I still have a funny relationship with the third. The finale is still something I don't entirely get, although I'm progressing. I don't know whether it's because I struggle with the form, or whether the only performance I have (Ashkenazy) struggles.
Whereas the first movement is one of my very favourite individual movements by anyone, ever. It is so perfectly, logically formed. And everything that's been quoted in recent posts about Sibelius' handling of pace - which is one of the things that makes him such a special composer - is beautifully illustrated for me in that first movement.
Vanska, Berglund, and Segerstam conduct this symphony beautifully. I haven't heard Ashkenazy in quite some time. I can't say I've ever struggled with a Sibelius symphony except for the 6th, which, for the longest time, remained a complete mystery to me. Now, of course, I consider it a masterpiece.
Remember when I said the only symphony of Jean that I didn't like that much, was the 7th? Well, I may have started to slowly grow more fond of it. On the other hand, I am not that much into 5th nowadays. The pendulum swinging is gorgeous, but on the other hand it feels "artificial", criticism sometimes directed at Bach. Maybe I need to relisten that one more. Or perhaps I've listened to it too often...
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2015, 06:50:46 AM
Remember when I said the only symphony of Jean that I didn't like that much, was the 7th? Well, I may have started to slowly grow more fond of it. On the other hand, I am not that much into 5th nowadays. The pendulum swinging is gorgeous, but on the other hand it feels "artificial", criticism sometimes directed at Bach. Maybe I need to relisten that one more. Or perhaps I've listened to it too often...
What's wrong with artificial? This reminds me of Simon Rattle in his TV series about 20th C music, when he talked how
Ravel saw a fake stone (IIRC), picked it up and said 'It's a fake stone, how wonderful!'. Artificial is what art is. You may well need a break from the piece, though.
Quote from: North Star on May 20, 2015, 07:04:51 AM
What's wrong with artificial?
Maybe the fact that artificial often seems equal to "devoid of true feeling".
FWIW, I don't find Sibelius' 5th 'artificial' at all, in fact, I find it to be passionate and heartfelt. It's a 'heart-on-sleeve' testimonial IMHO. I think the final movement is like a final parting between lovers while one person is waving goodbye from the docks while the other is sailing off into the sunset.
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
Maybe the fact that artificial often seems equal to "devoid of true feeling".
We should remember that emotions are not innate properties of works of art, but that they are felt by someone experiencing a work of art, and thus music can't really be said to have 'true feelings'. Music works or it doesn't, triggers an emotional response or doesn't (based on learned, culture-dependent responses) and there are various reasons for that, in the music, performance, acoustics, and the psychological condition of the listener.
That said, you may feel that the music doesn't work, of course. I would take a break from it and listen to something else - maybe some of the music mentioned in those
Cambridge Companion to Sibelius quotations. :)
Quote from: Alberich on May 20, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
Maybe the fact that artificial often seems equal to "devoid of true feeling".
Don't swallow the Romanticist Kool-Aid! 8)
And I always think of Ravel's remark, to the effect of, Don't these people realize that I may be artificial by nature?
And on a personal note, I've had it up to here with people here in town who speak of the abstraction of any of my music as some sort of liability.
Quote from: North Star on May 20, 2015, 07:32:30 AM
We should remember that emotions are not innate properties of works of art, but that they are felt by someone experiencing a work of art, and thus music can't really be said to have 'true feelings'. Music works or it doesn't, triggers an emotional response or doesn't (based on learned, culture-dependent responses) and there are various reasons for that, in the music, performance, acoustics, and the psychological condition of the listener.
We´ve had this discussion before.
Emotions are not innate properties of works of art, they are felt by someone experiencing a work of art --- very true, but the artist creating a work of art uses tools and elements which are specifically designed, or intended, to induce emotions, passions and feelings (I mean, those artists who are taking themselves seriously; those who are just into cold intellectual games or hot emotional histrionics for the sake of them should not even be counted in as artists). Now, there are basically two types of emotions, passions and feelings that a work of art can induce: (1) those of the one who listens, reads or watches or (2) those of the artist creating the work of art. Prior to the advent of Romanticism, the former was the norm: Romanticism turned the whole thing upside down and made a norm of the latter. Whether one likes one or the other is a matter of personal taste. Best of all is to enjoy both --- just as I do. :D :D :D
Quote from: Florestan on May 20, 2015, 09:34:09 AM
We´ve had this discussion before.
Lets take it outside (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13493.msg894707.html#msg894707).
Quote from: North Star on May 20, 2015, 11:54:31 AM
Lets take it outside (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13493.msg894707.html#msg894707).
Agreed. See you there.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2015, 06:09:13 AM
No, I'm wrong (per usual)
Ordered yet another
Turangalila have we?
Let's get back to Sibelius, shall we?
Okay, so I've posted about Symphony No. 3 & 4, The Origin of Fire, The Oceanides, and Lemminkainen Suite. Not many of fellow Sibelians commented on these works. I would love to hear from those who love these particular works like I do and also what your favorite recorded performance is of these works. Thanks!
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52 - performance of choice: Segerstam/Helsinki (Ondine)
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice: Vanska/Lahti (BIS)
The Oceanides, Op. 73 - performance of choice: Segerstam/Helsinki (Ondine)
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32 (Original Version) - performance of choice: Vanska/Lahti (BIS)
Lemminkainen Suite, Op. 22 - performance of choice: Segerstam/Helsinki (Ondine)
Of course, I have many more favorite performances but these are the ones that really stand out to me and have impressed me the most.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2015, 06:20:26 PM
Not many of fellow Sibelians commented on these works. I would love to hear from those who love these particular works like I do and also what your favorite recorded performance is of these works.
I love almost every single work of Jean, including those you mentioned. Even those few works that I am not worshipping (symphonies 5 and 7, the bard) are still far from dislike. And I change my mind about music works often enough, some day those three may be my top3, who knows. And like I said, I am not good with recordings. But interestingly with Sibelius, I usually find the ones by finnish conductors the best sounding. Maybe it's just a spark of nationalism in me... 0:)
Quote from: Alberich on May 21, 2015, 02:28:00 AM
I love almost every single work of Jean, including those you mentioned. Even those few works that I am not worshipping (symphonies 5 and 7, the bard) are still far from dislike. And I change my mind about music works often enough, some day those three may be my top3, who knows. And like I said, I am not good with recordings. But interestingly with Sibelius, I usually find the ones by finnish conductors the best sounding. Maybe it's just a spark of nationalism in me... 0:)
I think, in time, you'll come around to
Symphonies 5 & 7. I would be curious to know what your Sibelius collection looks like. I have many individual recordings, but I also have many cycles of the symphonies or so it seems I do now. Here are the cycles I own:
Vanska/Lahti SO
Segerstam/Helsinki
Berglund/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
C. Davis/BSO
C. Davis/LSO
C. Davis/LSO Live
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Maazel/VPO
Bernstein/NY Phil.
Oramo/CBSO
Storgards/BBC Phil.
Blomstedt/SFSO
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Jarvi/Gothenburg SO
Barbirolli/Halle
Gibson/Royal Scottish Orch.
Rattle/CBSO
Inkinen/NZ SO
Sakari/Iceland SO
Sanderling/Berlin SO
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
I also own several partial cycles: Vanska/Minnesota, HvK/Berliners (DG), Bernstein/VPO (DG), Kamu (DG), Berglund/LPO.
Here's a shocker: I mostly use Spotify. Good conductors are for ex. Osmo Vänskä, Segerstam, Neeme Järvi... and of course there is gorgeous recording of complete tone poems of Sibelius by Vassily Sinaisky, conducting the Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra.
Quote from: Alberich on May 21, 2015, 07:28:20 AM
Here's a shocker: I mostly use Spotify. Good conductors are for ex. Osmo Vänskä, Segerstam, Neeme Järvi... and of course there is gorgeous recording of complete tone poems of Sibelius by Vassily Sinaisky, conducting the Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra.
:o Well, it's not too surprising as many people nowadays prefer to have their music streamed. I've always preferred owning the hard copies of recordings as I like having something to show for my purchase. Of course, I have CDCDCD, which only further complicated matters. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 21, 2015, 07:40:55 AM
:o Well, it's not too surprising as many people nowadays prefer to have their music streamed. I've always preferred owning the hard copies of recordings as I like having something to show for my purchase. Of course, I have CDCDCD, which only further complicated matters. ;D
Don't worry, there was a time when I borrowed like thirty recordings from library at once, but nowadays Spotify seems so much better in that you don't have to carry around so much fragile material.
Call off the search! I've found The One: the concerto of (at-least-being-pretty-close-to) my personal dreams.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/884977911558.jpg)
Shoulda known it would be Oistrakh in the end. It almost always is Oistrakh or Kogan.
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2015, 01:09:18 PM
Call off the search! I've found The One: the concerto of (at-least-being-pretty-close-to) my personal dreams.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/884977911558.jpg)
Shoulda known it would be Oistrakh in the end. It almost always is Oistrakh or Kogan.
What's so great about it, Brian?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 21, 2015, 07:08:20 PM
What's so great about it, Brian?
Well I think a few pages ago I must have explained my personal preferences for this concerto: quick(ish) outer movements, a white-hot violin soloist, romantic playing (intelligent use of vibrato, occasional portamenti), warmth rather than arctic chill. Oistrakh delivers the goods.
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2015, 07:43:47 PM
Well I think a few pages ago I must have explained my personal preferences for this concerto: quick(ish) outer movements, a white-hot violin soloist, romantic playing (intelligent use of vibrato, occasional portamenti), warmth rather than arctic chill. Oistrakh delivers the goods.
Pepsi, not pure cold water? >:D 8)
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2015, 07:43:47 PM
Well I think a few pages ago I must have explained my personal preferences for this concerto: quick(ish) outer movements, a white-hot violin soloist, romantic playing (intelligent use of vibrato, occasional portamenti), warmth rather than arctic chill. Oistrakh delivers the goods.
Oh, I see. Sounds like a miss for me. I prefer a combination of both emotional extremes.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2015, 06:20:26 PM
....your favorite recorded performance is of these works. Thanks!
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52 - performance of choice:
Ashkenazy/PhilharmoniaSymphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice:
Maazel/ViennaThe Oceanides, Op. 73 - performance of choice:
Vänskä/LahtiThe Origin of Fire, Op. 32 (Original Version) - performance of choice:
Vänskä/LahtiLemminkainen Suite, Op. 22 - performance of choice:
Franck/Swedish RSOSarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2015, 04:22:45 AM
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice: Maazel/Vienna
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2015, 05:11:12 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)
:)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2015, 04:22:45 AM
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52 - performance of choice: Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice: Maazel/Vienna
The Oceanides, Op. 73 - performance of choice: Vänskä/Lahti
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32 (Original Version) - performance of choice: Vänskä/Lahti
Lemminkainen Suite, Op. 22 - performance of choice: Franck/Swedish RSO
Sarge
Very nice, Sarge. 8) I'll have to listen to that Franck/Swedish RSO recording. It's in my collection but still sealed. :-\
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 20, 2015, 06:20:26 PM
Okay, so I've posted about Symphony No. 3 & 4, The Origin of Fire, The Oceanides, and Lemminkainen Suite. Not many of fellow Sibelians commented on these works. I would love to hear from those who love these particular works like I do and also what your favorite recorded performance is of these works. Thanks!
So many choices... How do I pick just one recording of each work? Well, here goes:
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52 - performance of choice:
Sanderling/ Berlin SO (Brilliant/ Berlin Classics/ Edel)
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice:
Ansermet/ OSR (Decca)
The Oceanides, Op. 73 - performance of choice:
Ormandy/ Philadelphia (RCA)
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32 (Original Version) - performance of choice:
Yikes! I don't have any recordings of this! How can that be? ??? ??? ???
Lemminkainen Suite, Op. 22 - performance of choice:
Ormandy/ Philadelphia (RCA)
Quote from: jfdrex on May 23, 2015, 10:14:17 AM
So many choices... How do I pick just one recording of each work? Well, here goes:
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52 - performance of choice: Sanderling/ Berlin SO (Brilliant/ Berlin Classics/ Edel)
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63 - performance of choice: Ansermet/ OSR (Decca)
The Oceanides, Op. 73 - performance of choice: Ormandy/ Philadelphia (RCA)
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32 (Original Version) - performance of choice: Yikes! I don't have any recordings of this! How can that be? ??? ??? ???
Lemminkainen Suite, Op. 22 - performance of choice: Ormandy/ Philadelphia (RCA)
Nice list, but admittedly I don't know Ansermet's recording of the 4th. This will have to change. As for
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32, this shouldn't be too big of a surprise as this work isn't well known, but it's certainly worth your time, jfdrex. Do check it out or better yet listen to the revised version here first and tell us what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/v/4jXgLSYo2Ko
Enjoy my friend! 8)
Edit: Actually, I was wrong (unsurprisingly). I shamefully don't know any of Ormandy's Sibelius recordings. I haven't read about people talking about Ormandy's Sibelius very much but you certainly have me curious as to what he would sound like in this music.
Edit #2: I bought a 3-CD set last night of Ormandy conducting Sibelius that's a Japanese issue. Looking forward to hearing these performances.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2015, 06:24:32 PM
Nice list, but admittedly I don't know Ansermet's recording of the 4th. This will have to change.
It's available on an Eloquence two-fer, as well as in a large-ish Decca box set of Ansermet recordings. In the meantime, you can hear it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/kei9TpGhDZU
(Each movement is posted in a separate video, but you should be able to find the other three movements easily enough.)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2015, 06:24:32 PMAs for The Origin of Fire, Op. 32, this shouldn't be too big of a surprise as this work isn't well known, but it's certainly worth your time, jfdrex. Do check it out or better yet listen to the revised version here first and tell us what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/v/4jXgLSYo2Ko
Enjoy my friend! 8)
Many thanks. I did enjoy this. Come to think of it, I'm pretty certain I do have this on a Neeme Jarvi CD, with the Gothenburg SO on BIS, but I haven't listened to it in a long time. The general tenor (or should I say, bass-baritone?:D) of the piece puts me in mind of
Boris Godunov... But I also noticed that at around 3:32-3:42, Sibelius uses a melody almost identical to a motif in the second movement of his 2nd symphony. The same motif returns at 4:13-4:23.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 23, 2015, 06:24:32 PM
Edit: Actually, I was wrong (unsurprisingly). I shamefully don't know any of Ormandy's Sibelius recordings. I haven't read about people talking about Ormandy's Sibelius very much but you certainly have me curious as to what he would sound like in this music.
Edit #2: I bought a 3-CD set last night of Ormandy conducting Sibelius that's a Japanese issue. Looking forward to hearing these performances.
It is fashionable in some quarters to denigrate Ormandy as a mediocre middle-of-the-road conductor who used the great Philadelphia Orchestra to produce splashy, colorful performances of Russian romantic music but who was devoid of subtlety and original interpretive ideas when it came to the classics. Be that as it may, EO was a long-time devotee of the music of Sibelius; he recorded Sym 1 four times, and all the others at least once (except Nos. 3 & 6, which he said he didn't understand). Ormandy met Sibelius twice, and wrote a fascinating personal reminiscence of the composer and his music:
http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/ (http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/)
Some of EO's Sibelius recordings are reviewed on MusicWeb and on ClassicsToday, among others. (For what it's worth, Hurwitz is a big fan.) Richard Kaplan has very high praise for EO's recordings in his "Sibeliusaurus" in
Fanfare 30:3 (January/February 2007).
Cheers,
John
Quote from: jfdrex on May 26, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
It's available on an Eloquence two-fer, as well as in a large-ish Decca box set of Ansermet recordings. In the meantime, you can hear it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/kei9TpGhDZU
(Each movement is posted in a separate video, but you should be able to find the other three movements easily enough.)
Many thanks. I did enjoy this. Come to think of it, I'm pretty certain I do have this on a Neeme Jarvi CD, with the Gothenburg SO on BIS, but I haven't listened to it in a long time. The general tenor (or should I say, bass-baritone?:D) of the piece puts me in mind of Boris Godunov... But I also noticed that at around 3:32-3:42, Sibelius uses a melody almost identical to a motif in the second movement of his 2nd symphony. The same motif returns at 4:13-4:23.
It is fashionable in some quarters to denigrate Ormandy as a mediocre middle-of-the-road conductor who used the great Philadelphia Orchestra to produce splashy, colorful performances of Russian romantic music but who was devoid of subtlety and original interpretive ideas when it came to the classics. Be that as it may, EO was a long-time devotee of the music of Sibelius; he recorded Sym 1 four times, and all the others at least once (except Nos. 3 & 6, which he said he didn't understand). Ormandy met Sibelius twice, and wrote a fascinating personal reminiscence of the composer and his music:
http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/ (http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/)
Some of EO's Sibelius recordings are reviewed on MusicWeb and on ClassicsToday, among others. (For what it's worth, Hurwitz is a big fan.) Richard Kaplan has very high praise for EO's recordings in his "Sibeliusaurus" in Fanfare 30:3 (January/February 2007).
Cheers,
John
Cool, thanks John (this is your name as well?). Yeah, it does seem that Ormandy gets degraded among some circles as being a conductor of unsubtle music which have not real interpretative value. I say piss on them. :) Who gives a rat's ass what a critic thinks? Remember the Sibelius quote? These people are a dime a dozen and get their kicks by constantly talking trash about composers and conductors and what makes it even more interesting is they get paid for it (or at least the professional ones do). Anyway, stepping off my soapbox, I'll have to get around to Ansermet's Sibelius at some point. It's pretty unusual to hear a Swiss conductor in Sibelius. Thanks for the feedback.
Quote from: jfdrex on May 26, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
It's available on an Eloquence two-fer, as well as in a large-ish Decca box set of Ansermet recordings. In the meantime, you can hear it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/kei9TpGhDZU
(Each movement is posted in a separate video, but you should be able to find the other three movements easily enough.)
Many thanks. I did enjoy this. Come to think of it, I'm pretty certain I do have this on a Neeme Jarvi CD, with the Gothenburg SO on BIS, but I haven't listened to it in a long time. The general tenor (or should I say, bass-baritone?:D) of the piece puts me in mind of Boris Godunov... But I also noticed that at around 3:32-3:42, Sibelius uses a melody almost identical to a motif in the second movement of his 2nd symphony. The same motif returns at 4:13-4:23.
It is fashionable in some quarters to denigrate Ormandy as a mediocre middle-of-the-road conductor who used the great Philadelphia Orchestra to produce splashy, colorful performances of Russian romantic music but who was devoid of subtlety and original interpretive ideas when it came to the classics. Be that as it may, EO was a long-time devotee of the music of Sibelius; he recorded Sym 1 four times, and all the others at least once (except Nos. 3 & 6, which he said he didn't understand). Ormandy met Sibelius twice, and wrote a fascinating personal reminiscence of the composer and his music:
http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/ (http://dustofhue.com/2013/09/those-few-minutes-on-the-porch-sibelius-eugene-ormandy/)
Some of EO's Sibelius recordings are reviewed on MusicWeb and on ClassicsToday, among others. (For what it's worth, Hurwitz is a big fan.) Richard Kaplan has very high praise for EO's recordings in his "Sibeliusaurus" in Fanfare 30:3 (January/February 2007).
Cheers,
John
That's a wonderful story about Ormandy and his orchestra meeting Sibelius. I found it very moving and was thrilled to see the house myself when I was in Finland in 2013. Thanks very much for posting it.
I find this rather moving too:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b9pIftsHVHU
Have you heard The Tempest, Op. 109 in it's complete form before, Jeffrey? Check out Vanska's recording (if you haven't already).
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2015, 01:02:38 PM
Have you heard The Tempest, Op. 109 in it's complete form before, Jeffrey? Check out Vanska's recording (if you haven't already).
Coincidentally am listening to that CD now John! (Great minds etc :))
I love track 8: 'Interlude (Prospero)' with its lovely noble theme - I'm sorry that Sibelius did not include it in one of the suites from the Tempest as it deserves to be better known. There is also a fine BIS CD with the two Tempest suites, The Bard and Tapiola conducted by Okko Kamu:
[asin]B0055ISAFE[/asin]
Do you, or anyone else here, know the complete Karelia music? A friend recommended it to me and it was one of my best recent Sibelius discoveries. There is so much great music beyond what is in the famous Karelia Suite. There is a BIS version too but the Ondine is my recommendation (under £5.00 on UK Amazon). You have to hear it if you don't already know it:
[asin]B000007TR9[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on May 27, 2015, 12:09:39 AM
Coincidentally am listening to that CD now John! (Great minds etc :))
I love track 8: 'Interlude (Prospero)' with its lovely noble theme - I'm sorry that Sibelius did not include it in one of the suites from the Tempest as it deserves to be better known. There is also a fine BIS CD with the two Tempest suites, The Bard and Tapiola conducted by Okko Kamu:
[asin]B0055ISAFE[/asin]
Do you, or anyone else here, know the complete Karelia music? A friend recommended it to me and it was one of my best recent Sibelius discoveries. There is so much great music beyond what is in the famous Karelia Suite. There is a BIS version too but the Ondine is my recommendation (under £5.00 on UK Amazon). You have to hear it if you don't already know it:
[asin]B000007TR9[/asin]
Yep, great minds...:) That Kamu recording you linked is very good. I think I may have only listened to the recording once, though. Need to revisit it at some point. Yes, I know the complete
Karelia pretty well as it was included in the one of the
Sibelius Edition sets I bought. I believe it's in the
Orchestral Music set. Anyway, it's a great work for sure and completely enchanting like so many of his works.
Do you know the complete
Swanwhite or
Pelleas and Melisande, Jeffrey? I highly recommend these works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 27, 2015, 06:09:06 AM
Yep, great minds...:) That Kamu recording you linked is very good. I think I may have only listened to the recording once, though. Need to revisit it at some point. Yes, I know the complete Karelia pretty well as it was included in the one of the Sibelius Edition sets I bought. I believe it's in the Orchestral Music set. Anyway, it's a great work for sure and completely enchanting like so many of his works.
Do you know the complete Swanwhite or Pelleas and Melisande, Jeffrey? I highly recommend these works.
I do have Swanwhite but will listen again following your recommendation. I know the Pelleas music better as Beecham recorded it. Also, the opening 'At the Castle Gate' was used over here as the theme music for an incredibly long-running (1950s +) astronomy TV programme 'The Sky at Night' presented by a mad but much loved astronomer.
This extract from the Ondine recording of the complete Karelia Music is one of the most unusual pieces of Sibelius I have heard. The central section with the singing sounds a bit like a folk-based pop song; maybe Finland's next entry for Eurovision. 8):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZuxG5B_XBU
Interestingly (well, I find it interesting) I have just received this nice two CD set which was inexpensive. I haven't listened to the music yet but the reason I ordered it is because my version, on the front cover says 'Orchestral Favourites with Photo Album' and it does indeed include a super 51 page booklet containing many previously unpublished photos of Sibelius and his family. Maybe it's a limited edition of some kind but it's worth looking out for. It has an added appeal to me as I was lucky that my Finnish friends took me to see Sibelius's house two years ago.
[asin]B00NWZIR32[/asin]
Damn it, I can't find my favorite Sibelius quote in english anywhere. IIRC, it was about performance of his violin concerto (no idea where) and he said that the concerto is going to be butchered by critics, or, even worse, mentioned with pity.
Quote from: Alberich on May 30, 2015, 09:47:08 AM
Damn it, I can't find my favorite Sibelius quote in english anywhere. IIRC, it was about performance of his violin concerto (no idea where) and he said that the concerto is going to be butchered by critics, or, even worse, mentioned with pity.
Well where is it in Finnish? ;)
Quote from: North Star on May 30, 2015, 09:50:52 AM
Well where is it in Finnish? ;)
I read it in Tawastierna's biography, possibly part 2 or 3. Unfortunately, I don't have an english copy and at the moment not even the finnish one.
Quote from: Alberich on May 30, 2015, 10:00:19 AM
I read it in Tawastierna's biography, possibly part 2 or 3. Unfortunately, I don't have an english copy and at the moment not even the finnish one.
Alright. I might see during the summer if it's in the shorter edition by Erik T. Tawastjerna. You don't have the gist of the Finnish original either, then?
Quote from: vandermolen on May 27, 2015, 10:39:05 AM
I do have Swanwhite but will listen again following your recommendation. I know the Pelleas music better as Beecham recorded it. Also, the opening 'At the Castle Gate' was used over here as the theme music for an incredibly long-running (1950s +) astronomy TV programme 'The Sky at Night' presented by a mad but much loved astronomer.
This extract from the Ondine recording of the complete Karelia Music is one of the most unusual pieces of Sibelius I have heard. The central section with the singing sounds a bit like a folk-based pop song; maybe Finland's next entry for Eurovision. 8):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZuxG5B_XBU
Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey (so many posts to look through these past couple of days).
Swanwhite has to be one of Sibelius' most luscious works. Just one gorgeous moment after another. Almost sugary sweet, but there still a chance of frostbite even in this music. ;)
Karelia is a fun work. I listened to it several nights ago. Very enjoyable. Will have to make a mental of note of your observations next time I listen to it.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 30, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
Interestingly (well, I find it interesting) I have just received this nice two CD set which was inexpensive. I haven't listened to the music yet but the reason I ordered it is because my version, on the front cover says 'Orchestral Favourites with Photo Album' and it does indeed include a super 51 page booklet containing many previously unpublished photos of Sibelius and his family. Maybe it's a limited edition of some kind but it's worth looking out for. It has an added appeal to me as I was lucky that my Finnish friends took me to see Sibelius's house two years ago.
[asin]B00NWZIR32[/asin]
That's a beautiful set, Jeffrey. I bought just for that booklet and the idea that this could very be a collector's item at some point. I already had the Segerstam performances on other recordings.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2015, 06:53:46 PM
Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey (so many posts to look through these past couple of days). Swanwhite has to be one of Sibelius' most luscious works. Just one gorgeous moment after another. Almost sugary sweet, but there still a chance of frostbite even in this music. ;) Karelia is a fun work. I listened to it several nights ago. Very enjoyable. Will have to make a mental of note of your observations next time I listen to it.
Thanks John, I will look out Swanwhite as I certainly have not heard it recently. Yes, the Sibelius booklet on Ondine is great.
I have Swanwhite on this CD of Sibelius's 90th birthday concert from London in 1955. It is a great CD with Tapiola, Pelleas and Melisande and Symphony 4 and 7. It also includes an entertaining talk by Beecham on his visit to see Sibelius in Finland. Apparently Sibelius had his music on so loudly on his gramophone that his daughters had to rush out the house into the garden with their hands covering their ears:
[asin]B000042NZB[/asin]
There is no actual difference between the Maazel/Vienna 4 and 7 on the standalone disc with Tapiola and the ones in the Decca box, correct?
Quote from: amw on June 02, 2015, 03:23:34 AM
There is no actual difference between the Maazel/Vienna 4 and 7 on the standalone disc with Tapiola and the ones in the Decca box, correct?
Correct, same performances...although they might be different remasterings.
Sarge
Quote from: vandermolen on May 30, 2015, 10:00:30 PM
Thanks John, I will look out Swanwhite as I certainly have not heard it recently. Yes, the Sibelius booklet on Ondine is great.
I have Swanwhite on this CD of Sibelius's 90th birthday concert from London in 1955. It is a great CD with Tapiola, Pelleas and Melisande and Symphony 4 and 7. It also includes an entertaining talk by Beecham on his visit to see Sibelius in Finland. Apparently Sibelius had his music on so loudly on his gramophone that his daughters had to rush out the house into the garden with their hands covering their ears:
[asin]B000042NZB[/asin]
You should definitely see out Vanska's recording of
Swanwhite, Jeffrey. Those
Sibelius Edition sets are worth every penny. That's a funny anecdote about Beecham and Sibelius. How is the sound in this 1955 recording of Beecham? I tend to shy away from 50s recordings of classical as the dynamic range isn't quite up to par.
Quote from: amw on June 02, 2015, 03:23:34 AM
There is no actual difference between the Maazel/Vienna 4 and 7 on the standalone disc with Tapiola and the ones in the Decca box, correct?
The only difference is in the remastering, but they're the same performances from his Vienna cycle.
where is Cato when you need him? Surely this thread should be the Snowshod Sibelius.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 02, 2015, 07:04:29 AM
The only difference is in the remastering, but they're the same performances from his Vienna cycle.
Cool. I'm only interested in Nitro-4 so I'll stick with the individual.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 30, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
Interestingly (well, I find it interesting) I have just received this nice two CD set which was inexpensive. I haven't listened to the music yet but the reason I ordered it is because my version, on the front cover says 'Orchestral Favourites with Photo Album' and it does indeed include a super 51 page booklet containing many previously unpublished photos of Sibelius and his family. Maybe it's a limited edition of some kind but it's worth looking out for. It has an added appeal to me as I was lucky that my Finnish friends took me to see Sibelius's house two years ago.
[asin]B00NWZIR32[/asin]
From LISTEN Mag (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/):
QuoteThe Sibelius Lure
Jean Sibelius
The Essential Orchestral Favorites
Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Leif Segerstam (conductor)
(Ondine)
Reducing "Essential Sibelius" to the Violin Concerto, tone poems, and one Symphony will make hardened Sibelius-fans wince. But then Ondine's "The Essential Orchestral Favorites" intends not to please the hardened Sibelius-fan, it aims at making hardened Sibelius-fans out of the uninitiated. The 2-CD set does this splendidly: The Violin Concerto is the only Sibelius-work that's permanently in the repertoire. The Second Symphony, Sibelius' most conventional, is the ideal first symphonic exposure. And the tone poems, Karelia Suite, and three movements from The Tempest make a perfect Sibelius-starter—especially with Leif Segerstam and the Helsinki Philharmonic, whose soft-lit brawn is dream-boat stuff. Add Sibelius' own performance of his Andante festivo and a 50-page booklet with oodles of photos of Sibelius, a timeline, and condensed biography. Start here and fall in love.
The Tempest, Op. 109
(http://uploads4.wikiart.org/images/ivan-aivazovsky/the-tempest-1899-1.jpg) (http://www.artfund.org/assets/what-to-see/exhibitions/2014/peder%20balke/X7039.jpg)
Sibelius: Music for "The Tempest" by William Shakespeare, op. 109 (1925-26)
Sibelius's late period has puzzling aspects. When the composer approached the age of 60, he found it more and more difficult to work. "Self-criticism is increasing to the point of impossibility," he commented. Yet there is no trace of these problems in the compositions dating from the start of the 1920s. The writing of the sixth and the seventh symphony (1923, 1924), and the music for The Tempest (1925-26) and Tapiola (1926) seem to have been rather easy for Sibelius compared to the difficult composition process of the fifth symphony (1915-19). Most importantly: in the same way as Sibelius in his last symphony perfected a genre which was vitally important to him, Tapiola is a masterly conclusion to his series of symphonic poems and The Tempest is his most magnificent work of incidental music.
The immediate impetus for The Tempest was an inquiry from Sibelius's Danish publisher Wilhelm Hansen, who asked in May 1925: "Have you composed music for The Tempest? Det Kongelige Teater in Copenhagen is going to perform this play and would like to use your music."
Interestingly enough, as early as 1901 Sibelius's friend and patron Axel Carpelan (died 1919) had suggested: "Now look here Mr S., shouldn't you someday direct your interest to the dramas of Shakespeare ... The Tempest should be very appropriate for you: Prospero (magician), Miranda, spirits of the earth and air etc." Given that Sibelius would shortly (1926) compose another work that had been suggested by Carpelan, a "Waldsymphonie" (realised as Tapiola), one could speculate that the subject-matter of The Tempest had been in his mind for a long time. The fate of another aging artist, Prospero, may have been one that he felt he could identify with.
The score of the new stage work began to take shape surprisingly quickly, during the autumn of 1925, and possibly also at the beginning of the following year. The incidental music lasts for over an hour. It is composed for vocalists, mixed-voice choir, harmonium and a large orchestra. The music comprises 36 pieces in all.
The first public performance took place in Copenhagen on 15th March 1926, and the music of the play was considered particularly successful.
"Shakespeare and Sibelius, these two geniuses, have found each other," was one comment.
Immediately after the premiere Sibelius wrote: "The Tempest music has many themes which I would like to deal with more thoroughly. Because of the drama I have only been able to outline them." It appears that the climax of Tapiola and its whole-tone and chromatic textures do indeed develop from the overture to The Tempest. Unfortunately, the composer gave up his intentions in other respects. The two orchestral suites prepared from the incidental music, plus the overture (published as a separate piece) comprise 19 pieces in all. In these Sibelius actually condensed and combined items from the stage music, sometimes in somewhat strange ways which obscured the drama. Consequently, restoration of the original incidental music for concert performance is completely justified, especially since many of the pieces that Sibelius left out of the suites are of high musical excellence. The restored (i.e. the original) version is described below.
In The Tempest Sibelius's orchestral genius is at its most splendid. His ingenuity, his talent for creating utterly new orchestral colours seems inexhaustible. The magical sonorities of the pieces - which are familiar from the suites – are revitalised when we hear them in their original form. A dreamlike, intoxicating atmosphere is conjured up by the harp and harmonium in the Chorus of the Winds (No. 4) and by the combination of harp and harmonium with high muted strings and solo flute in The Oak (no. 9).
Moreover, in the reconstituted version certain pieces strike home with full force. These include the short, recurrent phrases depicting the flight of Ariel (nos. 3, 5, 21, 28-30), and various items that are pruned to a torso in the suites but which are allowed their full extent in the incidental music - the characterisation of the villainous Antonio (no. 17) and the thrillingly dissonant portrait of Prospero (no. 32). In addition, the interlude depicting Caliban (no. 11) and the powerful baroque portrait of Prospero (no. 8) are both much more impressive in their original length.
Above all one is grateful for ten entirely new pieces, among them a few delightful songs. These include Ariel's Third Song (no. 10) and the wild Stefano's Song (No. 12). In waltz rhythm we have Iris's Recitation (no. 24) and the gallant Juno's Song (no. 25). Finally, we have the splendid Cortège (no. 34) and, to conclude, the questioning Epilogue (no. 34 bis).
In the original music for The Tempest Sibelius proves to be a tone poet at the height of his creative powers. The music ranges from Baroque in the style of Corelli and Purcell to Stravinskian Neoclassicism (Scene, no. 31) and Prokofievian brashness (Caliban pieces 11 and 13). Despite the range of styles he manages to keep the music together. He combines the grossest commedia dell'arte (Stephano's and Caliban's songs, and The Drinking Companions' Canon, no. 16) with the most elevated tragedy (the Prospero pieces) – and in a genuinely Shakespearean spirit. In The Tempest Sibelius created one of his most ingenious orchestral scores.
Synopsis
With the help of Alonso, King of Naples, Antonio has seized power from his brother Prospero, Duke of Milan. With his daughter Miranda, Prospero
has settled down on a desert island, whose inhabitants - Ariel, a spirit of the air, and Caliban, a monster - he rules over by means of his magic powers. After several years a ship sails past the island. On board are Antonio and also Alonso, together with his son Ferdinand, his brother Sebastian and the courtier Gonzalo. The musical pieces start from this point (1-34bis.):
No. 1, Overture (later the ninth piece of the first concert suite, = I/9 The Tempest).
The ship sinks in a tempest raised by Prospero.
Act 1
No. 2, Miranda Falls Asleep (I/7b: Berceuse). Miranda is shocked at seeing the shipwreck. Prospero tells her about his past, then uses his magic to make her fall asleep.
No. 3, Ariel Flies In. Prospero calls on Ariel's help. (Note: Being a spirit, Ariel is asexual. On the stage the role is usually played by a man or a young boy, but Sibelius gave the role to a female vocalist.)
No. 4, Chorus of the Winds (II/1: Chorus of the Winds). Ariel tells how he sank the ship; the music depicts the gentle winds after the tempest.
No. 5, Ariel Hurries Away. Prospero tells Ariel to leave, and to turn into a mermaid whom only Prospero can see.
No. 6, Ariel's First Song with introduction and chorus (II/8: The Naiads). After an exchange of words between Prospero and Caliban, Ariel returns as an invisible mermaid, playing and singing, accompanied by the barking of dogs and the crowing of cocks.
No. 7, Ariel's Second Song (I/8b: Ariel's song). Ferdinand is sitting on the beach mourning his father, whom he believes to be dead. Ariel confirms the death in his song.
Act 2
No. 8, Interlude (II/4: Prospero). The music paints a portrait of the noble Prospero, after which we move to the characters from the shipwreck.
No. 9, The Oak Tree; Ariel plays the flute (I/1: The Oak). Alonso is grieving, believing his son to be dead. The others curse their fate, that they have ended up on a desert island. Ariel comes to play the flute, whereupon some members of the groupfall asleep.
No. 10, Ariel's Third Song. After the others have fallen asleep, Antonio and Sebastian intend to kill Alonso and Gonzalo, but Ariel returns to hinder the plans.
No. 11, Interlude [Caliban] (I/6: middle part of Scène). This is a portrait of the monster Caliban, whom Prospero has enslaved.
Nro 12, Stephano' Song. Caliban meets the jester Trinculo, who was saved from the shipwreck, and the hard-drinking cup-bearer Stephano, who sings with a bottle in his hand.
No. 13, Caliban's Song (I/3 Caliban's song). When Caliban gets his "heavenly drink" he thinks Stephano is a god and regards him as his new master.
Act 3
No. 14, Interlude [Miranda] (II/7: Miranda). The act begins with an interlude which portrays the charming girl Miranda; with the help of Prospero, Miranda and Ferdinand have found each other.
No. 15 (I/2: Humoreske). Stephano, Trinculo and Caliban squabble with each other.
No. 16, Canon (I/5: Canon). The companions plan to kill Prospero, sing a canon and march off, guided by Ariel's music.
No. 17, Devil's Dance (II/9: Dance Episode). Antonio and Sebastian once again plan to murder Alonso; a Spanish dance portrays Antonio.
No. 18, Ariel as a Harpy (I/1: The Oak, only the first chords). Devilish creatures set a table for the survivors, but the feast ends when Ariel arrives in the guise of a harpy and wipes the table clean with his wings.
No. 19, Dance II [The Devils Dance Away] (I/4:The Harvesters, final sequence). Strange creatures carry away the table and disappear, dancing.
No. 20, Intermezzo (II/2: Intermezzo). Alonso repents of his deeds, believing that Prospero has caused his son's death as revenge; the music between the third and fourth acts depicts Alonso's grief.
Act 4
No. 21, Ariel Flies In [= No. 3]. Prospero admits that he has tested Ferdinand. But now he grants Miranda to Ferdinand and summons Ariel.
No. 22, Ariel's Fourth Song (II/5: Song). At the request of Prospero, Ariel conjures up a harvest feast from antiquity, complete with goddesses, to celebrate the engagement of the young couple.
No. 23, The Rainbow (I/8a: Interlude). A rainbow illuminates a feast held in honour of Iris, the goddess of the rainbow.
No. 24, Iris's Recitation. Iris's recitation is accompanied by a waltz rhythm.
No. 25, Juno's Song. In her waltz song the supreme goddess Juno wishes the young couple "riches, love, long life, kindness, happiness and honour".
No. 26, Dance Of The Naiads (II/3: Dance of the Nymphs). The mermaids dance a charming minuet.
No. 27, The Harvester (I/4: The Harvesters). The harvesters join in the dance.
No. 28, Ariel Flies In [= No. 3]. Prospero remembers Caliban's deceitful plan and summons Ariel again.
No. 29, Ariel Flies Off [= No. 5]. Prospero commands Ariel to fetch fine garments to lure the thieves, and Ariel hurries away.
No. 30, Ariel flies In. Ariel returns immediately after carrying out the command.
No. 31, The Dogs (I/6: Scéne). Caliban, Stephano and Trinculo intend to kill Prospero, but are charmed by the garments.
They try them on, until spirits in the shapes of dogs - summoned by Prospero - drive the villains away.
Act 5
No. 31bis, Overture (II/6: Song II). As an introduction we hear an Overture. This is the same music as Ariel's 5th song which comes a little later.
No. 32 Intrada (I/7a: Intrada). Prospero in his magician's robe commands Ariel to go and free those he has practised his magic on; his decision to give up his magic powers is characterised by "mindless chords followed by festive music".
No. 33, Ariel's Fifth Song (II/6: Song II). Prospero once again dresses in the apparel of the Duke of Milan and sets Ariel free. Ariel rejoices.
No. 34, Cortège. Both the virtuous characters and those who had fallen into error come to Prospero. He pardons everybody. After the amnesty and a happy reunion the whole party proceeds to Prospero's cabin to the rhythm of a festive polonaise.
No. 34bis, Epilogue.
For a performance in Helsinki in 1927 Sibelius wrote this additional concluding piece, full of majestic resignation, in the spirit of Prospero's music
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is certainly one of my favorite Sibelius works outside the symphonies, tone poems, and VC. It has such an ethereal atmosphere to it, but not without moments of intensity and burning passion. I've only heard one performance of the complete Tempest, but also own several of the Suites 1 & 2 (Segerstam is especially good here). So what do you guys think about the work? I know this is one of Karl's favorite works from Sibelius (as indicated by his 'Top 5 Favorites' list).
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 02, 2015, 06:44:38 AM
You should definitely see out Vanska's recording of Swanwhite, Jeffrey. Those Sibelius Edition sets are worth every penny. That's a funny anecdote about Beecham and Sibelius. How is the sound in this 1955 recording of Beecham? I tend to shy away from 50s recordings of classical as the dynamic range isn't quite up to par.
The sound is obviously constricted compared with modern recordings but I love historical recordings ( I am a History teacher after all!) - but I will look out for Vanska. Am tempted to get symphs 6 and 7 and Tapiola. What do you think? Your Tempest post is very interesting. I have been repeatedly playing the complete Tempest music (Vanska). I played the 'Interlude, Prospero' segment to a friend the other day - it is my favourite moment in the work. My friend enjoyed it although he said it had echoes of 'The Shire' from Lord of the Rings. ::)
In answer to your question John, I love the complete Tempest Music but also the complete Karelia Music. You are right that the complete Tempest does have an ethereal atmosphere which is captivating. I wonder if you know William Alwyn's 'The Magic Island' also inspired by the Tempest. It is very short but poetic and haunting too.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 02, 2015, 11:23:49 AM
The sound is obviously constricted compared with modern recordings but I love historical recordings ( I am a History teacher after all!) - but I will look out for Vanska. Am tempted to get symphs 6 and 7 and Tapiola. What do you think? Your Tempest post is very interesting. I have been repeatedly playing the complete Tempest music (Vanska). I played the 'Interlude, Prospero' segment to a friend the other day - it is my favourite moment in the work. My friend enjoyed it although he said it had echoes of 'The Shire' from Lord of the Rings. ::)
In answer to your question John, I love the complete Tempest Music but also the complete Karelia Music. You are right that the complete Tempest does have an ethereal atmosphere which is captivating. I wonder if you know William Alwyn's 'The Magic Island' also inspired by the Tempest. It is very short but poetic and haunting too.
I can't say I'm fond of historic recordings, but Beecham is usually excellent in whatever he conducts.
The Tempest is just an incredible piece of music. Yes, I would most definitely get the Vanska recording (which can be bought rather cheaply second-hand I imagine). I do know the Alwyn work, but it's been ages since I've listened to any of his music. May have to plan a revisit at some juncture.
A transcription of the interview online:
QuoteIn 2005, Finnish composer Osmo Tapio Räihälä (b.1964) and Sir Colin Davis (1927 – 2013) visited Ainola. In a 56-minute interview filmed by YLE, the Finnish public service television station, Räihälä and the late conductor discuss Sibelius. (http://dustofhue.com/2013/07/special-voice-that-nobody-can-silence-sir-colin-davis-sibelius/)
Quote from: Ken B on June 02, 2015, 07:05:29 AM
where is Cato when you need him? Surely this thread should be the Snowshod Sibelius.
After a particularly rowdy Ken B opium binge a new title hits the stores.......
We shall not stand for none-sense! Tsk tsk.
Quote from: Ken B on June 02, 2015, 07:05:29 AM
where is Cato when you need him? Surely this thread should be the Snowshod Sibelius.
Would that mean his feet were shod with snow?
And–where did the snowshoes go?!
Snowshoes are here to stay.
I've just been reading, via Google Books previews, a bit of material about exactly how Sibelius made such an chronological mess of his opus numbers.
Turns out his original list in 1909 was actually fairly orderly, but then he started second-guessing himself about which earlier pieces 'deserved' opus numbers. And then he started moving things around to fill gaps.
Apparently there's a whole mass of edits and jottings about what to put where - pieces to revise, new pieces to write. I want to reach through time to 1911 and say "NO! Leave it ALONE! It's fine!"
Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2015, 04:03:16 AM
Would that mean his feet were shod with snow?
Could be. I defer to your expertise in shoddy usage. ;)
Even though I have seen his sauna room I cannot imagine Sibelius 'scantly clad' ???
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 11:57:42 AM
Even though I have seen his sauna room I cannot imagine Sibelius 'scantly clad' ???
Nor do you WANT to imagine it.
I miss the old title of this thread..... :'( :'( :'( :'(
No more scantily clad...anybody. Sibelius is kicking up the snow again. :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 03, 2015, 03:48:51 PM
No more scantily clad...anybody. Sibelius is kicking up the snow again. :)
Well,
Aino is still scantily clad, of course 8)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg/300px-Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg)
Quote from: North Star on June 03, 2015, 04:05:39 PM
Well, Aino is still scantily clad, of course 8)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg/300px-Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg)
:D :D
Now we are all picturing him in nothing but snowshoes.
That's not an avatar suggestion John!
???
Oh dear...let's get back to the music guys. ::)
I did find a cheapish second hand copy of Vanska's recording of symphony 6, 7 and Tapiola. Am greatly looking forward to hearing this:
[asin]B00002681Z[/asin]
I think that it is very important for CDs of 'Tapiola' to have cover images of gloomy forests. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 09:45:25 PM
I did find a cheapish second hand copy of Vanska's recording of symphony 6, 7 and Tapiola. Am greatly looking forward to hearing this.
It's certainly an excellent recording of all three. Listened to it last night actually. 8)
Quote from: North Star on June 03, 2015, 09:48:02 PM
It's certainly an excellent recording of all three. Listened to it last night actually. 8)
Great to hear - thanks. Have posted the cover image above.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 09:45:25 PM
I did find a cheapish second hand copy of Vanska's recording of symphony 6, 7 and Tapiola. Am greatly looking forward to hearing this:
I think that it is very important for CDs of 'Tapiola' to have cover images of gloomy forests. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 09:50:12 PM
Great to hear - thanks. Have posted the cover image above.
Well that image isn't gloomy at all to me. Reminds me more of the blinding, shimmering light Sir Colin Davis talked about in the interview I posted yesterday here, and suits the
Sixth Symphony more in my opinion than the dark sound world of
Tapiola. The only downside of that single disc is - I don't know how much of other Vänskä & Lahti Sibelius recordings you had already, but you will want them all. 8)
Quote from: North Star on June 03, 2015, 09:58:27 PM
Well that image isn't gloomy at all to me. Reminds me more of the blinding, shimmering light Sir Colin Davis talked about in the interview I posted yesterday here, and suits the Sixth Symphony more in my opinion than the dark sound world of Tapiola. The only downside of that single disc is - I don't know how much of other Vänskä & Lahti Sibelius recordings you had already, but you will want them all. 8)
Yes, I now see what you mean about the image!
I have been listening to Vanska's complete Tempest music which is wonderful. I have gradually been picking up second hand copies of his cycle and recently found symphonies 2 and 3 (another great cover image):
[asin]B0000266EW[/asin]
A friend also kindly bought me a box set of lesser-known works too. I have the original version of Symphony 5 and the final version and very recently the original and final version of the Violin Concerto - these performances, especially of the original version of the VC made me appreciate these works properly for the first time.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 10:10:18 PM
Yes, I now see what you mean about the image!
I have been listening to Vanska's complete Tempest music which is wonderful. I have gradually been picking up second hand copies of his cycle and recently found symphonies 2 and 3 (another great cover image):
A friend also kindly bought me a box set of lesser-known works too. I have the original version of Symphony 5 and the final version and very recently the original and final version of the Violin Concerto - these performances, especially of the original version of the VC made me appreciate these works properly for the first time.
That is indeed a lovely cover image. The Kavakos disc with both versions of the VC is wonderful. I have heard the original version of Symphony no. 5 but don't really remember much of it apart from the impression that the revision is a huge improvement.
Quote from: North Star on June 03, 2015, 10:24:55 PM
That is indeed a lovely cover image. The Kavakos disc with both versions of the VC is wonderful. I have heard the original version of Symphony no. 5 but don't really remember much of it apart from the impression that the revision is a huge improvement.
Yes, it was the original, somewhat darker version, of the Violin Concerto that I preferred. Like the original version of Vaughan Williams's 'A London Symphony' which I prefer to the final revision of the work.
Forgive my ignorance (I am no expert in musical forms), but are there any symphony movements by Sibelius that could be defined as a variation form? I know Sibelius has that student years composition for solo cello but are there any to be found in his mature masterpieces? I am especially fond of variations and thus I would like to know if Sibelius had any skill in this.
Hell, I'm so green I have hard time explaining the difference between development and variation.
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 06:05:36 AM
Hell, I'm so green I have hard time explaining the difference between development and variation.
No, that is no deficiency on your part. The classic distinction only works for back when variations plainly retained the phrase structure and harmonic underpinnings of the theme being varied; over time, as the idea of varying a theme grew freer, the "border" between development and variations got rather blurry.
Of all the composers to ask such a question about... debates can rage about just what form Sibelius was using sometimes.
Nevertheless, a quick google confirmed that the 2nd movement of Symphony No.5 has been labelled as variation form, if only on Wikipedia...
I've read Tawastierna considered the possibility of the middle movement of symphony 3 being a variations of a theme, but ultimately, the theme really stays the same all the time.
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 06:05:36 AM
Forgive my ignorance (I am no expert in musical forms), but are there any symphony movements by Sibelius that could be defined as a variation form?
Personally I would categorize the second movements of Symphonies 3, 5, and 6 as variations. (6/ii might be the least "literal," that is, the theme changes the most.) The finale of 6 also has a short variation section.
Part of the hybrid form of the first movement of No. 5 is that every single passing moment is a variation on the first four notes, that upward soaring French horn call. This is too short to be a conventional "theme", but nevertheless, as you listen, it is presented in different ways almost every second.
Sibelius' genius is that he invented whole new movement forms, which are similar to theme-and-variations but not quite. The first movement of No. 5 is one such totally unique invention; the slow movement of No. 4 is another. That's not a T&V, but it does behave like one.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 09:45:25 PM
I did find a cheapish second hand copy of Vanska's recording of symphony 6, 7 and Tapiola. Am greatly looking forward to hearing this:
[asin]B00002681Z[/asin]
I think that it is very important for CDs of 'Tapiola' to have cover images of gloomy forests. :)
That's an excellent recording. I still maintain that Vanska's 6th was my 'breakthrough' with the symphony. A lighter feel and not so heavy-handed is the way this symphony should be performed IMHO. Also, those are awesome performances of
Tapiola and
Symphony No. 7. Do you own the whole symphony series from Vanska yet, Jeffrey?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2015, 06:47:48 AM
That's an excellent recording. I still maintain that Vanska's 6th was my 'breakthrough' with the symphony. A lighter feel and not so heavy-handed is the way this symphony should be performed IMHO. Also, those are awesome performances of Tapiola and Symphony No. 7. Do you own the whole symphony series from Vanska yet, Jeffrey?
Read the rest of the conversation,
John. 8)
Quote from: North Star on June 04, 2015, 06:58:29 AM
Read the rest of the conversation, John. 8)
Okay, I see he owns
Symphonies 2, 3, 5 (Original Version), 6, and 7. I still would like hear what exactly he owns, though as I'm unclear if he just owns
Symphony No. 5 in the original version and if also owns the revised version?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2015, 07:02:45 AM
Okay, I see he owns Symphonies 2, 3, 5 (Original Version), 6, and 7. I still would like hear what exactly he owns, though as I'm unclear if he just owns Symphony No. 5 in the original version and if also owns the revised version?
Quote from: vandermolen on June 03, 2015, 10:10:18 PMA friend also kindly bought me a box set of lesser-known works too. I have the original version of Symphony 5 and the final version and very recently the original and final version of the Violin Concerto - these performances, especially of the original version of the VC made me appreciate these works properly for the first time.
Okay, kudos, Karlo. :) Now, all he's lacking is the 1st and 4th. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2015, 07:29:09 AM
Now, all he's lacking is the 1st and 4th. ;D
Tsk, tsk. How is it possible to lack those two?
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 07:36:28 AM
Tsk, tsk. How is it possible to lack those two?
Briefly, I hope. 8)
[asin]B0000265CH[/asin]
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 07:36:28 AM
Tsk, tsk. How is it possible to lack those two?
If a person is collecting the individual recordings from the Vanska series, it's very likely to be missing something. :)
ATTENTION JEFFREY:
Check and see if you own this recording:
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-CD-1225.jpg)
Because if you do not, you should buy it ASAP. :) It's a marvelous collection and everything, as expected, is performed to perfection. This particular recording was a disc featured in my
Sibelius Edition: Tone Poems set and I liked it so well that I bought my dad a copy second-hand from an Amazon MP seller for dirt cheap. Needless to say, he LOVED the recording.
Who do you think is greater tone poet, R. Strauss or Sibelius?
I'll have to say: a tie. Those two have greatest tone poems of all time and it seems impossible for me to prefer one over another. Both have one tone poem I'm not that much into yet, though (The Bard, Symphonia domestica).
Equally hard question is: who is a greater composer? They certainly had a good opinion of each other, Strauss confessing Sibelius is only Scandinavian composer whose music has depth, and, reportedly, said that Sibelius is greater, even though Strauss has "more skill". And when Sibelius was asked which are the greatest composers of 20th century, he answered "Richard Strauss, Bartok and Schostakovich".
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 07:36:28 AM
Tsk, tsk. How is it possible to lack those two?
Well, this does invite a philosophical question: Isn't it okay not to know the
First (can one still "be a fan of
Sibelius")?
;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2015, 06:47:48 AM
That's an excellent recording. I still maintain that Vanska's 6th was my 'breakthrough' with the symphony. A lighter feel and not so heavy-handed is the way this symphony should be performed IMHO. Also, those are awesome performances of Tapiola and Symphony No. 7. Do you own the whole symphony series from Vanska yet, Jeffrey?
Not yet John. I am assembling them in bits and pieces.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 04, 2015, 07:41:24 AM
If a person is collecting the individual recordings from the Vanska series, it's very likely to be missing something. :)
ATTENTION JEFFREY:
Check and see if you own this recording:
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-CD-1225.jpg)
Because if you do not, you should buy it ASAP. :) It's a marvelous collection and everything, as expected, is performed to perfection. This particular recording was a disc featured in my Sibelius Edition: Tone Poems set and I liked it so well that I bought my dad a copy second-hand from an Amazon MP seller for dirt cheap. Needless to say, he LOVED the recording.
Thank you John. I have been considering this CD for some time. My only reservation was that it did not include Tapiola, but as I have now ordered that with symphonies 6 and 7; so I'm sure that this will enter my collection very soon. :)
Well, and that does look very nice.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2015, 08:01:41 AM
Well, this does invite a philosophical question: Isn't it okay not to know the First (can one still "be a fan of Sibelius")?
;)
The recurring suggestion in some quarters that the first two symphonies are somehow not "Sibelian", as if they're immature works, absolutely bewilders me. There are extraordinary, masterful things in both of them.
PS I actually have the tone poems disc that Mirror Image is now spruiking. I don't generally have any versions to compare it to... I'd have to say, I prefer Ashkenazy's
En Saga to Vanska's but it's not as if I'm unhappy with anything on the CD.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 04, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
Thank you John. I have been considering this CD for some time. My only reservation was that it did not include Tapiola, but as I have now ordered that with symphonies 6 and 7; so I'm sure that this will enter my collection very soon. :)
Yes, you'll have
Tapiola with that recording of
Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7. This tone poems recording is just fantastic. Superb from start to finish.
Quote from: orfeo on June 04, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
The recurring suggestion in some quarters that the first two symphonies are somehow not "Sibelian", as if they're immature works, absolutely bewilders me. There are extraordinary, masterful things in both of them.
+1
Quote from: orfeo on June 04, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
The recurring suggestion in some quarters that the first two symphonies are somehow not "Sibelian", as if they're immature works, absolutely bewilders me. There are extraordinary, masterful things in both of them.
I don't think there is anything
immature about the
First; I rather like the
First. But it does not tug at my affections with anything like the strength of the later symphonies.
Quote from: Alberich on June 04, 2015, 07:52:31 AM
Who do you think is greater tone poet, R. Strauss or Sibelius?
I'll have to say: a tie. Those two have greatest tone poems of all time and it seems impossible for me to prefer one over another. Both have one tone poem I'm not that much into yet, though (The Bard, Symphonia domestica).
Equally hard question is: who is a greater composer? They certainly had a good opinion of each other, Strauss confessing Sibelius is only Scandinavian composer whose music has depth, and, reportedly, said that Sibelius is greater, even though Strauss has "more skill". And when Sibelius was asked which are the greatest composers of 20th century, he answered "Richard Strauss, Bartok and Schostakovich".
I don't know about 'greater' but I prefer Sibelius to Strauss by a country mile even though I do love many of Strauss' works. I've thought about that quote from Strauss where he said "He (Sibelius) is great but I have more skill" and I disagree with it. Sibelius had just as much skill, perhaps even more so, than Strauss or any composer. Sibelius was a remarkable orchestrator and
knew exactly how to pull the sounds he was going for from the orchestra.
Not entirely random observation while trying to piece together a more sensible chronology of works for my own use.
It would seem that the much talked-about Origin of Fire, op.32 is actually a kind of pair with Impromptu, op.19.
Of course you wouldn't think this from the damn opus numbers. However, both were originally composed and performed in 1902, and both were revised in 1910. One is for male choir and orchestra, the other for female choir and orchestra.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2015, 06:32:40 AM
Sibelius was a remarkable orchestrator and knew exactly how to pull the sounds he was going for from the orchestra.
+1
I never really understood why Sibelius's music is often described as joyless, depressing, grey etc. Have they listened to his compositions really at all?
Quote from: orfeo on June 05, 2015, 07:08:19 AM
Not entirely random observation while trying to piece together a more sensible chronology of works for my own use.
It would seem that the much talked-about Origin of Fire, op.32 is actually a kind of pair with Impromptu, op.19.
Of course you wouldn't think this from the damn opus numbers. However, both were originally composed and performed in 1902, and both were revised in 1910. One is for male choir and orchestra, the other for female choir and orchestra.
The only problem I'm having with Sibelius and trying to get some kind of grip on him is his maddening chronology of opuses and trying to tie them together in my own mind in the correct order. I'll have to re-listen to
Impromptu, Op. 19, I'm sure I've heard heard it before, but a refresher wouldn't hurt.
Quote from: Alberich on June 05, 2015, 07:13:46 AM
+1
I never really understood why Sibelius's music is often described as joyless, depressing, grey etc. Have they listened to his compositions really at all?
It does make a person wonder. Anyone with any kind of familiarity with Sibelius' music knows that this isn't the case at all.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2015, 06:32:07 AM
I don't think there is anything immature about the First; I rather like the First. But it does not tug at my affections with anything like the strength of the later symphonies.
I don't think I'd know what an immature symphony sounds like, but I do know the impact the first symphony had on me when I was nobbut a lad, hearing Sibelius for the first time.
Kapow!, it was. The others are wonderful of course, but the first is still my tiptop favourite of the seven, immature or not.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2015, 07:26:53 AM
The only problem I'm having with Sibelius and trying to get some kind of grip on him is his maddening chronology of opuses and trying to tie them together in my own mind in the correct order.
Yes, well, this is why I'm going through the process of writing it out.
www.sibelius.fi is pretty comprehensive when it comes to setting out original versions, revisions, arrangements and the times when Sibelius was just being a bit of a pain with the numbering (like the Arioso, op.3, which is way out of kilter but I've seen speculation he was trying to pass it off as an early work because he wasn't giving it to his usual publisher!)
The original versions of
The Origin of Fire and
Impromptu belong between the 1st and 2nd symphonies, if that helps. They just predate the 2nd symphony.
Quote from: orfeo on June 05, 2015, 07:36:29 AM
Yes, well, this is why I'm going through the process of writing it out.
www.sibelius.fi is pretty comprehensive when it comes to setting out original versions, revisions, arrangements and the times when Sibelius was just being a bit of a pain with the numbering (like the Arioso, op.3, which is way out of kilter but I've seen speculation he was trying to pass it off as an early work because he wasn't giving it to his usual publisher!)
The original versions of The Origin of Fire and Impromptu belong between the 1st and 2nd symphonies, if that helps. They just predate the 2nd symphony.
That's a great site! My buddy Karlo (North Star) turned me onto the site which I had no prior knowledge of. It's nicely laid out, too, and if you go through the works like the symphonies for example, the site takes you through the work with audio samples. Very cool! 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 05, 2015, 06:22:47 AM
Yes, you'll have Tapiola with that recording of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7. This tone poems recording is just fantastic. Superb from start to finish.
Have ordered it!
Quote from: Elgarian on June 05, 2015, 07:29:51 AM
I don't think I'd know what an immature symphony sounds like, but I do know the impact the first symphony had on me when I was nobbut a lad, hearing Sibelius for the first time. Kapow!, it was. The others are wonderful of course, but the first is still my tiptop favourite of the seven, immature or not.
Well, had I been kapowed, that were another matter!
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2015, 06:53:46 PM
Sorry for the late reply, Jeffrey (so many posts to look through these past couple of days). Swanwhite has to be one of Sibelius' most luscious works. Just one gorgeous moment after another. Almost sugary sweet, but there still a chance of frostbite even in this music. ;) Karelia is a fun work. I listened to it several nights ago. Very enjoyable. Will have to make a mental of note of your observations next time I listen to it.
Hello John - I thoroughly enjoyed the lovely 'Swanwhite' which I found on this super Sibelius collection, going very cheaply, second-hand, on Amazon UK. Thanks very much for the recommendation:
[asin]B000000ARM[/asin]
I've concluded that from about the Violin Concerto (op.47) onwards the opus numbers have some rational basis, maybe as far back as op.41. Occasionally it's tricky with a collection of pieces (eg small piano works) or with incidental music that was refashioned to stand alone, but it's at least possible to see why a number was assigned.
Numbers up to 40 are sometimes accurate, sometimes off by a decade or two.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2015, 01:13:20 PM
Hello John - I thoroughly enjoyed the lovely 'Swanwhite' which I found on this super Sibelius collection, going very cheaply, second-hand, on Amazon UK. Thanks very much for the recommendation:
[asin]B000000ARM[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
Have ordered it!
Great to hear, Jeffrey! Yes, that Sakari/Iceland SO recording does look rather like. I may end up buying it at some point. Thanks for the recommendation as well. ;) Happy to hear you enjoyed
Swanwhite! It's a gorgeous work.
That new Naxos disc with Leif Segerstam conducting a Sibelius miscellany? It's the first in a 6-volume series "of orchestral works by Jean Sibelius falling outside his symphonies, violin concerto and tone poems." The headliner for Volume 2 (July) will be Belshazzar's Feast. Segerstam will be in charge of the full series. Good complement to his celebrated symphony cycle, I guess!
Quote from: Brian on June 06, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
That new Naxos disc with Leif Segerstam conducting a Sibelius miscellany? It's the first in a 6-volume series "of orchestral works by Jean Sibelius falling outside his symphonies, violin concerto and tone poems." The headliner for Volume 2 (July) will be Belshazzar's Feast. Segerstam will be in charge of the full series. Good complement to his celebrated symphony cycle, I guess!
Ooh. Well that might fill
my library nicely.
Quote from: Brian on June 06, 2015, 08:11:25 AM
That new Naxos disc with Leif Segerstam conducting a Sibelius miscellany? It's the first in a 6-volume series "of orchestral works by Jean Sibelius falling outside his symphonies, violin concerto and tone poems." The headliner for Volume 2 (July) will be Belshazzar's Feast. Segerstam will be in charge of the full series. Good complement to his celebrated symphony cycle, I guess!
Wow! Six volumes?!?!? Sounds awesome! I can't wait. Of course, I'll be collecting them all as Segerstam is one my favorite Sibelians.
Bernstein's Sibelius. Mainly the DG series with Vienna. What say you bunch of the Snowshoed?
I've been rediscovering this mini-cycle, all four symphonies are superbly performed, but the 2nd is as majestic as they come. I don't think I've heard the 2nd so grand. It really is exhilarating.
I really need to give Bernstein's DG partial cycle another listen as it's been years. I love his cycle on Columbia (Sony), so it will be interesting to hear how his approach has changed.
I actually own the Bernstein DG Sibelius in this incarnation:
[asin]B0001WGDXK[/asin]
The Vanska BIS CD of symphonies 6,7 and Tapiola is indeed sensational in all respects. These are as fine a version as I have heard of all three works.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2015, 08:34:09 AM
The Vanska BIS CD of symphonies 6,7 and Tapiola is indeed sensational in all respects. These are as fine a version as I have heard of all three works.
Thumbs up, Jeffrey. Indeed, sensational performances.
And now I am once again love with 5th. That swan theme's golden glow is glorious in the last movement. The Bard doesn't sound bad, either. Strange how easily I change my mind. Maybe it's the recording that counts.
Quote from: Alberich on June 08, 2015, 05:17:29 AM
And now I am once again love with 5th. That swan theme's golden glow is glorious in the last movement. The Bard doesn't sound bad, either. Strange how easily I change my mind. Maybe it's the recording that counts.
Good to hear and I never thought
The Bard sounded
bad. I take it you did? ???
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 06:29:23 AM
Good to hear and I never thought The Bard sounded bad. I take it you did? ???
Well, not bad but it was for a long time the only tone poem by Sibelius that I didn't consider particularly impressive. I was baffled by how it didn't really seem to go anywhere. But I no longer consider that a bad attribute and I may have been mistaken, in any case. I may have listened to a bad recording, my taste may have improved, or maybe I hadn't listened to it often enough. Whatever the reasons, I like it considerably more now.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 07, 2015, 07:37:47 PM
Thumbs up, Jeffrey. Indeed, sensational performances.
And thanks for your recommendation John. Although I know these works so well I was riveted from the opening of Symphony 6.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 08, 2015, 07:57:31 AM
And thanks for your recommendation John. Although I know these works so well I was riveted from the opening of Symphony 6.
You're welcome, Jeffrey. I knew these symphonies incredibly well before ever venturing into the Vanska cycle, but Vanska certainly helped cement my love of these symphonies.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 06:44:25 AM
Many people prefer Maazel's Vienna cycle to his Pittsburgh one, but I'm not completely onboard with either cycle. I may need to plan a revisit of the Vienna one. What other cycles do you own, Peter?
Yes, I have yet to get a feel for Maazel's recordings overall. He seems to have a reputation for being uneven. I am curious about his early recordings on DG (http://www.amazon.com/Maazel-Complete-Recordings-Deutsche-Grammophon/dp/B00P35231G). Have you heard any of those recordings? Sibelius: If I recall correctly the Pittsburgh cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Lorin-Maazel-conducts-Sibelius-Jean/dp/B004H6P2O2) is a bit glacial for me, but some listeners argue that it brings out new aspects in the music. Perhaps Maazel's Pittsburgh cycle is the Celibidache version of Sibelius? At this point I prefer the Wiener Philharmoniker cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0000041Z3) out of the two. In terms of Sibelius cycles - way too many at about 15/16, but few compared to your 25 cycles (or is it 26 now? ;)). In my mind Lahti/Vänskä (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Vol-Lahti-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B004UJ2KC8) rules although I would like to hear the Minnesota recordings (1/4 (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-1-4/dp/B00B7B0W7W) & 2/5 (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-2-5)). :) Still, it is hard to choose among so many great cycles (as I am sure you are well aware).
Quote from: Alberich on June 08, 2015, 06:57:07 AM
Well, not bad but it was for a long time the only tone poem by Sibelius that I didn't consider particularly impressive. I was baffled by how it didn't really seem to go anywhere. But I no longer consider that a bad attribute and I may have been mistaken, in any case. I may have listened to a bad recording, my taste may have improved, or maybe I hadn't listened to it often enough. Whatever the reasons, I like it considerably more now.
The Bard just kinda lies there. Like a blanc-mange.
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 09:32:43 AM
Yes, I have yet to get a feel for Maazel's recordings overall. He seems to have a reputation for being uneven. I am curious about his early recordings on DG (http://www.amazon.com/Maazel-Complete-Recordings-Deutsche-Grammophon/dp/B00P35231G). Have you heard any of those recordings? Sibelius: If I recall correctly the Pittsburgh cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Lorin-Maazel-conducts-Sibelius-Jean/dp/B004H6P2O2) is a bit glacial for me, but some listeners argue that it brings out new aspects in the music. Perhaps Maazel's Pittsburgh cycle is the Celibidache version of Sibelius? At this point I prefer the Wiener Philharmoniker cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0000041Z3) out of the two. In terms of Sibelius cycles - way too many at about 15/16, but few compared to your 25 cycles (or is it 26 now? ;)). In my mind Lahti/Vänskä (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Vol-Lahti-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B004UJ2KC8) rules although I would like to hear the Minnesota recordings (1/4 (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-1-4/dp/B00B7B0W7W) & 2/5 (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-2-5)). :) Still, it is hard to choose among so many great cycles (as I am sure you are well aware).
It's 25 cycles now. :) Yeah, I've just never been too keen on Maazel's Sibelius. I actually prefer the Finns when it comes to Sibelius, although, as I've mentioned somewhere, Bernstein and HvK are quite good in this music as well. One of my least favorite cycles amongst my collection are the Colin Davis. I think I'm probably in the minority here, but that's okay, I think he misses many of the music's great climaxes as they seem underpowered in his three cycles with perhaps the BSO being the strongest of the three. His grunting is quite prominent on the LSO Live cycle thus making it unlistenable. I mean I could be more tolerate of these kinds of things but it's as if he's huffing and puffing and humming every chance he gets. Anyway, it comes down to three cycles for me: Vanska, Berglund (Helsinki), and Segerstam (Helsinki). I have not listened to Saraste's cycle yet, but I'm in the process of listening to it now. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 11:34:46 AM
It's 25 cycles now. :) Yeah, I've just never been too keen on Maazel's Sibelius. I actually prefer the Finns when it comes to Sibelius, although, as I've mentioned somewhere, Bernstein and HvK are quite good in this music as well. One of my least favorite cycles amongst my collection are the Colin Davis. I think I'm probably in the minority here, but that's okay, I think he misses many of the music's great climaxes as they seem underpowered in his three cycles with perhaps the BSO being the strongest of the three. His grunting is quite prominent on the LSO Live cycle thus making it unlistenable. I mean I could be more tolerate of these kinds of things but it's as if he's huffing and puffing and humming every chance he gets. Anyway, it comes down to three cycles for me: Vanska, Berglund (Helsinki), and Segerstam (Helsinki). I have not listened to Saraste's cycle yet, but I'm in the process of listening to it now. 8)
Davis' second cycle was my first one, but it was certainly good enough to make me fall for Sibelius. How do you like Segerstam's cycle with the Danish National SO? If you've heard it - how do you think it compares to his Helsinki cycle?
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 11:45:55 AM
Davis' second cycle was my first one, but it was certainly good enough to make me fall for Sibelius. How do you like Segerstam's cycle with the Danish National SO? If you've heard it - how do you think it compares to his Helsinki cycle?
Segerstam's Danish cycle (on Chandos) is one I'm missing. I'd love to get it, but acquiring it has proven quite difficult.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 11:47:05 AM
Segerstam's Danish cycle (on Chandos) is one I'm missing. I'd love to get it, but acquiring it has proven quite difficult.
The Brilliant C release is currently very affordable at Amazon.de...... 0:)
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0010SU4UW (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0010SU4UW)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 11:49:46 AM
The Brilliant C release is currently very affordable at Amazon.de...... >:D
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0010SU4UW (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0010SU4UW)
Yeah and this is the problem I've been running into. It's just too expensive plus I would rather own the recordings individually since many of them came with other works coupled with whatever symphony is featured.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 11:52:16 AM
Yeah and this is the problem I've been running into. It's just too expensive plus I would rather own the recordings individually since many of them came with other works coupled with whatever symphony is featured.
Ah, I didn't see that it was an MP seller. Ooops! Otherwise 16 euros would be a good deal. I would spend way too much money if I was buying individual releases. The magical "boxes" have seriously invaded my house. It is certainly tempting to get individual releases, but very expensive.
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 11:55:48 AM
Ah, I didn't see that it was an MP seller. Ooops! Otherwise 16 euros would be a good deal. I would spend way too much money if I was buying individual releases. The magical "boxes" have seriously invaded my house. It is certainly tempting to get individual releases, but very expensive.
In this regard, the individual releases are preferable to the box set due to the tone poems/misc. orchestral works that were coupled with the symphonies, otherwise, I would probably just buy that Brilliant set. Let me tell you how much of a completist I am: I actually bought this recording just to get Segerstam's
Pohjola's Daughter since it wasn't apart of his Helsinki box set:
[asin]B0007Y0DCO[/asin]
But I had bought this recording + the Helsinki set on Ondine years ago. Of course, the above recording was voided once I bought this 2-CD set:
[asin]B00NWZIR32[/asin]
:)
I like this CD:
[asin]B000000AQ0[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on June 08, 2015, 01:02:45 PM
I like this CD:
[asin]B000000AQ0[/asin]
I really wish Chandos would reissue this Segerstam cycle.
I am surprised that there are no major efforts to releases a Sibelius set on the 150th anniversary of his birth (apart from BIS completing their valiant crusade). Is this because BIS rules with the Sibelius edition? It seems like there are so many other recordings hiding in the vaults waiting to be dug up. Any news of such efforts for 2015? :(
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 01:40:26 PM
I am surprised that there are no major efforts to releases a Sibelius set on the 150th anniversary of his birth (apart from BIS completing their valiant crusade). Is this because BIS rules with the Sibelius edition? It seems like there are so many other recordings hiding in the vaults waiting to be dug up. Any news of such efforts for 2015? :(
As been posted before, Segerstam is embarking on a 6-disc series on Naxos of the theatre/misc. music. Also, there was a new recording of
Lemminkainen Suite (coupled with
Pohjola's Daughter) that came out earlier with Lintu/Finnish RSO on Ondine. Other than this, I'm not sure what efforts are being made to promote this milestone.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 02:55:27 PM
As been posted before, Segerstam is embarking on a 6-disc series on Naxos of the theatre/misc. music. Also, there was a new recording of Lemminkainen Suite (coupled with Pohjola's Daughter) that came out earlier with Lintu/Finnish RSO on Ondine. Other than this, I'm not sure what efforts are being made to promote this milestone.
I wish for a mega archive Sibelius box :P.... (*wishful thinking*)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 03:02:03 PM
I wish for a mega archive Sibelius box :P.... (*wishful thinking*)
You mean like BIS'
Sibelius Edition all collected and presented in one mega box set? I'm sure many other labels could jump onboard with this idea as many of them have a substantial Sibelius catalog.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 03:11:11 PM
You mean like BIS' Sibelius Edition all collected and presented in one mega box set? I'm sure many other labels could jump onboard with this idea.
Well, not as complete as that, but some type of set with historical recordings (and newer ones) compiled (from the 40s-80s). There must be tons of OOP recordings that deserve to see the light!
Quote from: Moonfish on June 08, 2015, 03:13:17 PM
Well, not as complete as that, but some type of set with historical recordings (and newer ones) compiled (from the 40s-80s). There must be tons of OOP recordings that deserve to see the light!
I'm sure there are many OOP recordings that deserve to be reissued, which, one of them, I'm thinking is one which were just just talking about: Segerstam's Danish cycle. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 03:25:58 PM
I'm sure there are many OOP recordings that deserve to be reissued, which, one of them, I'm thinking is one which were just just talking about: Segerstam's Danish cycle. :)
8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 01:20:29 PM
I really wish Chandos would reissue this Segerstam cycle.
Brilliant did.
Quote from: Ken B on June 08, 2015, 05:06:42 PM
Brilliant did.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 08, 2015, 11:52:16 AM
Yeah and this is the problem I've been running into. It's just too expensive plus I would rather own the recordings individually since many of them came with other works coupled with whatever symphony is featured.
The world outside this thread believes that Sibelius wrote 7 symphonies and nothing else.
Quote from: orfeo on June 08, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
The world outside this thread believes that Sibelius wrote 7 symphonies and nothing else.
And I'm certainly glad I'm not one of
those people. :)
Quote from: orfeo on June 08, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
The world outside this thread believes that Sibelius wrote 7 symphonies and nothing else.
Yes, and that's sad because he was a masterful tone poet, could write effectively for both human voice and chamber ensembles, magnificent incidental music etc. Piano writing was maybe not his strongest point, but it has several gems as well (Kyllikki and op. 75 for ex.).
Quote from: Alberich on June 09, 2015, 02:05:30 AM
Yes, and that's sad because he was a masterful tone poet, could write effectively for both human voice and chamber ensembles, magnificent incidental music etc. Piano writing was maybe not his strongest point, but it has several gems as well (Kyllikki and op. 75 for ex.).
I don't know about 'maybe not his strongest point', especially when comparing to e.g. his overall chamber output.
https://www.youtube.com/v/eL6DAKBiHUU https://www.youtube.com/v/oMju7bu4CWU https://www.youtube.com/v/-ImwDht3fPs
The Wood-Nymph, Op. 15
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/00/19/04/001904c297ec4e33f9622b239a208009.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/John_Bauer_-_Princess_Tuvstarr_gazing_down_into_the_dark_waters_of_the_forest_tarn._-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)
Op. 15 Skogsrået (The Wood Nymph), symphonic poem (ballad); based on a poem by Viktor Rydberg of the same name. Completed 1894-95; first public performance in Helsinki, 17th April 1895 (Orchestra of Helsinki Orchestral Society under Jean Sibelius). Arrangement as a play with music (for narrator, piano, two French horns and strings), first public performance in the premises of the Helsinki Club, 9th March 1895; piano arrangement of the final sequence (Ur "Skogsrået") 1895.
An early sketch of Skogsrået or The Wood Nymph may have been included in the plan for an opera in the summer of 1894. In addition to the opera (The Building of the Boat), Sibelius was planning a stage work about an unfaithful student. According to a theory presented by the musicologist Veijo Murtomäki, the "march-like musical piece" which Sibelius mentioned in a letter of 10th August 1894 could be the opening sequence of The Wood Nymph, while the trip to the forest would be the second sequence, the descriptions of unfaithfulness and sensual love the third sequence and the funeral march the finale of the work.
However, towards the end of 1894 the plan became more specific, and Sibelius decided to base the work on Viktor Rydberg's Skogsrået. In March 1895 Sibelius completed "the first sketch" of The Wood Nymph – a play with music, for narrator, strings, two French horns and piano. It was performed on the occasion of a lottery at the premises of the Helsinki Club, on 9th March 1895.
Viktor Rydberg's text related the adventures of the hero Björn in the forest, where evil dwarfs are carrying out their malicious schemes and a curvaceous wood nymph lures Björn into making love to her. The spell he is under cannot be broken: Björn can no longer love his wife. Nor does he feel like working. He dies alone and full of yearning.
The orchestral version of The Wood Nymph was performed on 17th April 1895. The Wagnerian features of this erotically charged work were now more obvious than before. According to Merikanto The Wood Nymph included strange and enchanting colours, but one had to know the content of the poem to understand it. "And indeed, the audience were very attentive in following the content of the composition from the programme notes," he wrote.
In his opinion Sibelius's music had changed: it had gained in clarity as compared with its earlier "excessively passionate and incoherent fumbling".
The Wood Nymph remained in Sibelius's concert programmes for years. For instance, it was performed in 1899 when the first symphony had its first public performance. Although the piece was basically well worked-out, Sibelius never prepared the manuscript for publication. It gradually sank into oblivion with the exception of a single performance in 1936. Then, in the late 1990s, the work was again thrust into the international spotlight after the Lahti Symphony Orchestra had played and recorded it.
Opinions of the work have varied. Erik Tawaststjerna did not regard the composition as "central" to Sibelius's output, arguing that the composer "did not succeed in merging the different materials into a coherent whole". The composer Kalevi Aho took the same view: "An interesting work which would have needed more polishing."
The Sibelius scholar Veijo Murtomäki has defended The Wood Nymph: "One of the finest moments in the work is the modal-diatonic sound field which starts after the majestic opening and lasts for several minutes, bringing to mind Gorecki's third symphony!"
The opening is is indeed majestic, with an impressive theme in C major portraying Björn. After that we experience that long, almost minimalist "sound field", which ends with the return of the heroic theme. In the third episode we witness the meeting of Björn and the Wood Nymph. The long instrumental line from the cellos produces an extremely erotic atmosphere. However, the atmosphere changes to melancholy in the final episode, which depicts the hopeless yearning of the hero.
In The Wood Nymph, the listener can admire the young Sibelius's sensual orchestration and glowing tone colours.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does everyone think of The Wood-Nymph? For me, it's simply magical. I really enjoy these folklore-based works (Tveitt's Nykken springs to mind here as well) Of course, Vanska rules the day here since his recording in the mid-90s (?) was one that caught many listeners' ears for the first-time.
Honestly, the forest-riding sequence in The Wood-Nymph (aka "the modal-diatonic sound field") is one of the most amazing things I've ever heard. When I first heard it (on the Vanska disc with the Legends) I was just... transported might be a good word for it.
I do like the piece as a whole, but as soon as anyone mentions it it's that particular (quite extended) sequence that I immediately think of. As much as anything, it's a perfect early demonstration of Sibelius' manipulation of tempo/pulse.
Quote from: orfeo on June 09, 2015, 07:13:15 AM
Honestly, the forest-riding sequence in The Wood-Nymph (aka "the modal-diatonic sound field") is one of the most amazing things I've ever heard. When I first heard it (on the Vanska disc with the Legends) I was just... transported might be a good word for it.
I do like the piece as a whole, but as soon as anyone mentions it it's that particular (quite extended) sequence that I immediately think of. As much as anything, it's a perfect early demonstration of Sibelius' manipulation of tempo/pulse.
Awesome! Would you mind enlightening me on the 'forest-riding sequence'? Where does this occur in the work? I'm planning a revisit of this tone poem very soon.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2015, 07:38:10 AM
Awesome! Would you mind enlightening me on the 'forest-riding sequence'? Where does this occur in the work? I'm planning a revisit of this tone poem very soon.
On the Vanska recording it really technically starts around the 2-minute mark, but keeps building and building for a LONG time after that, not breaking down until the 7.5 or 8-minute mark.
It can take a couple of minutes to realise that something rather odd is happening as the music refuses to "develop" in a conventional way.
[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
Quote from: orfeo on June 09, 2015, 07:54:50 AM
On the Vanska recording it really technically starts around the 2-minute mark, but keeps building and building for a LONG time after that, not breaking down until the 7.5 or 8-minute mark.
It can take a couple of minutes to realise that something rather odd is happening as the music refuses to "develop" in a conventional way.
[asin]B00IU5PVQA[/asin]
Thanks, orfeo. I'll listen out for this sequence. I'm sure I've heard it hundred times, but didn't realize how unconventional this particular section sounded.
Quote from: Alberich on May 12, 2015, 03:36:29 AM
I'm a hardcore Sibelian but I really don't have favorite recording of VC, since I have never been that selective with recordings. As long as they don't completely f*ck it up, I'm usually satisfied.
But I think this is a pretty good one:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130451.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I'm enjoying Fried's performance right now. Of course, Kamu is in top-form. Fried sounds quite good. Almost closer to Kyung Wha Chung, but without the edginess in her attack. I've read a good bit about Miriam Fried earlier and I wonder why she hasn't caught on as a major soloist? I suppose it might have to do with her not being a supermodel. ::) I have nothing negative to say about this performance. This one could be one of those 'sleeper' performances I've read about.
Quote from: Ken B on June 08, 2015, 10:13:28 AM
The Bard just kinda lies there. Like a blanc-mange.
Don't they jiggle rather, if made properly?
Quote from: orfeo on June 08, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
The world outside this thread believes that Sibelius wrote 7 symphonies and nothing else.
Never true, even if considering only the
Violin Concerto,
Finlandia, and the
Valse triste.
Why, the tune from
Finlandia is part of many a hymnal.
Little else, then. The point - and it's a point I' ve seen made in at least one article - is that there is a vast supply of symphony recordings and performances, and that the rest of Sibelius' output is usually reduced to "oh, there's a bit of room on the CD after the symphonies, what can we squeeze in?"
The only work that seems to escape this fate is the Violin Concerto, which of course goes quite nicely on a recording with someone else's Violin Concerto. Tchaikovsky seems to be a popular pairing.
Quote from: orfeo on June 11, 2015, 02:30:24 PM
Little else, then.
Emendation accepted 8)
But in a way it follows, since
Sibelius's international reputation was built on the proliferation of the orchestral works.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2015, 08:56:50 AM
Don't they jiggle rather, if made properly?
Yes, rather like Sibelius himself when he snowshoes butt naked.
wobble wobble
Listened to the 3rd Symphony on the way home today (Davis/LSO - LSO Live). Such an interesting piece structurally and I've always found it to be one of Jean's best. I love how the second mvt. seems to be struggling with its direction, and I don't mean this as the composer himself being confused. The opening tone begins mysteriously, then slowly into a lovely waltz that never seems to complete itself, always succumbing to the mysteries. And the final bars take me by surprise as I always expect the waltz theme to finally prevail and end us on a major chord. But that doesn't happen, we are left with a powerful minor chord progression from the strings. It consistently feels quite sudden for me, but it's very compelling.
The 3rd movement also seems to sway back and forth between light and dark. But this time the middle of the movement is taken over by a jubilant chorale that sprints its way into the final chord.
Listened to Davis/LSO on RCA earlier performing the 2nd Symphony as well. I love how broadly Davis presents the finale Allegro Moderato, he allows plenty of breathing room for the beautiful melodies and harmonies to take shape. Although I do equally appreciate the quick intensity of Monteux/LSO's recording of the 2nd. I will add that the brass on the Davis/LSO/RCA recording is top notch, they play fantastically with such confidence.
About to hit up The Wood Nymph for a first time. (the music that is, I don't know any wood nymphs in real life. I think. :-X )
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 11, 2015, 06:23:32 PM
Listened to the 3rd Symphony on the way home today (Davis/LSO - LSO Live). Such an interesting piece structurally and I've always found it to be one of Jean's best. I love how the second mvt. seems to be struggling with its direction, and I don't mean this as the composer himself being confused. The opening tone begins mysteriously, then slowly into a lovely waltz that never seems to complete itself, always succumbing to the mysteries. And the final bars take me by surprise as I always expect the waltz theme to finally prevail and end us on a major chord. But that doesn't happen, we are left with a powerful minor chord progression from the strings. It consistently feels quite sudden for me, but it's very compelling.
The 3rd movement also seems to sway back and forth between light and dark. But this time the middle of the movement is taken over by a jubilant chorale that sprints its way into the final chord.
Listened to Davis/LSO on RCA earlier performing the 2nd Symphony as well. I love how broadly Davis presents the finale Allegro Moderato, he allows plenty of breathing room for the beautiful melodies and harmonies to take shape. Although I do equally appreciate the quick intensity of Monteux/LSO's recording of the 2nd. I will add that the brass on the Davis/LSO/RCA recording is top notch, they play fantastically with such confidence.
About to hit up The Wood Nymph for a first time. (the music that is, I don't know any wood nymphs in real life. I think. :-X )
The 3rd has really become a favorite these past few months. I've definitely warmed up to it, although I've always liked it, but I love it now.
A new minibox from Decca (4 cds) with Sibelius's songs will be released in August.
http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Lieder-Ltd-Edt-Krause/dp/B00YQIFXWW (http://www.amazon.de/S%C3%A4mtliche-Lieder-Ltd-Edt-Krause/dp/B00YQIFXWW)
The MP3 version seems to have been released (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-The-Complete-Songs-CDs/dp/B00P1DAX0I/ref=mb_oe_o) last year.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81NaVhcY5yL._SX425_.jpg)
Ooh, nice to know. Though as you can see from that second link, it actually dates all the way back to the 1980s. Still, a new edition of it might mean a better price?
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2015, 08:59:45 AM
Never true, even if considering only the Violin Concerto, Finlandia, and the Valse triste.
Why, the tune from Finlandia is part of many a hymnal.
I was under the impression that from tone poems Tapiola, Swan of Tuonela and Pohjola's daughter are relatively well-known as well. From other compositions, Karelia suite.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 11, 2015, 06:40:23 PM
The 3rd has really become a favorite these past few months. I've definitely warmed up to it, although I've always liked it, but I love it now.
When I was dating the future Mrs. Rock, I bought her a LP box set of Sibelius Symphonies (DG, Karajan and Kamu). She decided to listen to them in order. She liked 1 & 2 but totally fell in love with 3. She loved it so much she never progressed beyond 3 ;D Of course over the years, she eventually heard the rest (being married to me) but on her own she only listens to the Third.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2015, 04:59:14 AM
When I was dating the future Mrs. Rock, I bought her a LP box set of Sibelius Symphonies (DG, Karajan and Kamu). She decided to listen to them in order. She liked 1 & 2 but totally fell in love with 3. She loved it so much she never progressed beyond 3 ;D Of course over the years, she eventually heard the rest (being married to me) but on her own she only listens to the Third.
Sarge
The
Third truly has a kind of enchanting quality.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2015, 04:59:14 AM
When I was dating the future Mrs. Rock, I bought her a LP box set of Sibelius Symphonies (DG, Karajan and Kamu).
Sarge
I advise against telling this to the current Mrs Rock 😉
YHSM, Karlo ("Sibelius mail") 0:)
Quote from: North Star on June 12, 2015, 05:06:55 AM
I advise against telling this to the current Mrs Rock 😉
;D :D ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2015, 04:59:14 AM
When I was dating the future Mrs. Rock, I bought her a LP box set of Sibelius Symphonies (DG, Karajan and Kamu). She decided to listen to them in order. She liked 1 & 2 but totally fell in love with 3. She loved it so much she never progressed beyond 3 ;D Of course over the years, she eventually heard the rest (being married to me) but on her own she only listens to the Third.
Sarge
Yeah, it's hard not to fall under the spell of this symphony. It's pretty downright infectious. :)
Seemingly there is some "Sibelius" activity in the works this year. :)
I have no idea of what this DG edition will contain at this point in time.
Sibelius Edition [Sept 4, 2015]
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Edition-Bernstein/dp/B00ZB7UYF8 (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Edition-Bernstein/dp/B00ZB7UYF8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MmK9QgZCL.jpg)
There is another box from Decca (11 cds) as well with Flagstad, Nilsson, Collins, Rosbaud, and Van Beinum listed as artists/conductors.
Sibelius: Great Performances (Aug 7, 2015) - no image yet
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Great-Performances-Flagstad/dp/B00YG7W8EO (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Great-Performances-Flagstad/dp/B00YG7W8EO)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 12, 2015, 06:57:13 PM
Seemingly there is some "Sibelius" activity in the works this year. :)
Doh. Of course. 150th birthday coming up.
Quote from: orfeo on June 12, 2015, 07:03:54 PM
Doh. Of course. 150th birthday coming up.
Yes, all of us in this thread already knew that Orfeo! ;)
The question is why it took them so long...?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg899365.html#msg899365 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg899365.html#msg899365)
And now the box sets are flooding in. ;) ;D (Not that I need any of them.)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 12, 2015, 07:04:59 PM
Yes, all of us in this thread already knew that Orfeo! ;)
The question is why it took them so long...?
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg899365.html#msg899365 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg899365.html#msg899365)
Maybe because Sibelius' birthday isn't until Dec. 8th? If anything, we're getting these sets
earlier. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2015, 07:14:25 PM
Maybe because Sibelius' birthday isn't until Dec. 8th? If anything, we're getting these sets earlier. ;)
Good point. At least BIS started VERY early! 8)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 12, 2015, 07:04:59 PM
Yes, all of us in this thread already knew that Orfeo! ;)
Well some of us might have forgotten! :-[
Symphony No. 5 in E flat major, Op. 82
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8637/15328395424_4915925039_z.jpg) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3656/3530936995_720ca9393f.jpg)
First version 1915: 1. Tempo moderato assai, 2. Allegro commodo, 3. Andante mosso, 4. Allegro commodo - Largamente molto; first performance in Helsinki on 8th December 1915 (Helsinki City Orchestra under Jean Sibelius).
Second version 1916: 1. Tempo molto moderato, 2. Andante mosso, 3. Allegro molto - Largamente assai; first performance in Turku on 8th December 1916 (Orchestra of Turun Soitannollinen Seura under Jean Sibelius).
Final version 1919: 1. Tempo molto moderato - Allegro moderato (ma poco a poco stretto), 2. Andante mosso, quasi allegretto, 3. Allegro molto; first performance in Helsinki, 24th November 1919 (Helsinki City Orchestra under Jean Sibelius).
The second and fifth symphonies compete for the title of Sibelius's most popular symphony. Both sound splendid and end in a blaze of glory.
The sovereign mastery of the fifth symphony gives no hint of the years of hard decision-making that went into it. Ideas were conceived initially, then discarded, then rewritten, then finally taken up again in a new form.
During the First World War Sibelius as a composer led his life "on two levels". His contacts with the outside world were sparse because of the war, and financial pressures forced him to produce a great number of small pieces for Finnish publishers. At the same time he was planning an entirely new kind of symphony. He would write three different versions of it before he was satisfied with the result.
Sibelius had been thinking about the fifth symphony, at least since the spring of 1912 when he was working on other pieces. In the summer of 1914, just after the outbreak of the First World War, he wrote that he had got an idea for "a lovely theme". Then in the autumn of 1914 he wrote a prophecy to his friend Axel Carpelan: "Another depth of misery. But I can already make out the mountain that I shall ascend (...) God is opening his doors for a moment, and his orchestra is playing the fifth symphony."
While Sibelius's diary notes show that his mood during the fourth symphony was one of determination, the initial stages of the fifth symphony seemed to be filled with ecstasy. "The autumn sun is shining. Nature in its farewell colours. My heart is singing sadly – the shadows grow longer. The Adagio of my fifth symphony? That I, poor fellow that I am, can have moments of such richness!!" he wrote on 10th October 1914. And in November the sentiment grew even stronger: "I have a lovely theme. An adagio for the symphony – earth, worms and misery, fortissimo and sordinos [mutes], lots of sordinos. And the melodies are divine!!"
In another diary entry (April 1915) Sibelius wrote: "In the evening, working on the symphony. This important task which strangely enchants me. As if God the Father had thrown down pieces of a mosaic from the floor of heaven and asked me to work out the pattern." Indeed, he produced a "mosaic" of drafts during the autumn and winter of 1914. But from such an assembly of material can we know which draft belonged to which movement, or even to which work?
In addition to the symphony Sibelius was planning a violin concerto, which he also discussed with Breitkopf & Härtel. And this plan began to develop into yet another work, the sixth symphony. Themes were moved from one draft to another. Part of the first drafts for the sixth symphony finally ended up in the fifth symphony - and the second theme of the finale of the sixth symphony can first be found among the drafts for the fifth symphony!
On the 21st April Sibelius saw sixteen swans. In his diary he immediately wrote a magnificent thematic sequence, which ended up in the finale of the fifth symphony. "One of the great experiences of my life! God, how beautiful," he wrote in his diary.
Erik Tawaststjerna made an in-depth analysis of the way in which Sibelius developed the ideas in his sketchbook into his fifth symphony. Tawaststjerna divided the motifs (those that passed the self-criticism stage) into those generated by a "stepping impulse" and those generated by a "rocking impulse".
Both of these impulses are clearly present in the first version of the fifth symphony, which was performed in Helsinki on the composer's 50th birthday, 8th December 1915. It achieved enormous and immediate success. Sibelius was already a national hero, and the reception was overwhelming: the composer had to receive delegations for hours before the concert, the audience shrieked for joy during the concert, and the celebrations continued over several days and many performances.
The reception of the first version is reflected in Otto Kotilainen's review in Helsingin Sanomat. The symphony was still in four movements, and Kotilainen noted quite correctly that the second movement stood in a very close relation to the first. In the first version the first movement ends in an oddly inconclusive manner, as if it were an introduction to the second movement. Kotilainen regarded the third, slow movement as "one of the strangest andante movements ever written", describing it in terms of "simplicity, depth, beauty" (and soon Sibelius discovered that the slow movement was still too simple in this form).
According to Kotilainen the finale was like the raging of the forces of nature. In the canon at the end Kotilainen heard the "wildest dissonances" as the theme criss-crossed from one instrument to another. "True musical magic," the critic marvelled. He declared the fifth symphony to be a masterpiece.
The review shows how much the first version differed from the final version. The original version is clearly longer, and the scherzo episode at the end of the first movement is still a separate movement. In the finale of the first version there are exciting dissonant features, which look back to the fourth symphony, and which Sibelius later smoothed out. Even the famous final strokes were still ligatured to each other with the timpani. In 1995, the first version attracted international attention, when Osmo Vänskä recorded it with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra.
Sibelius was preparing the symphony for publication in January 1916, but he was not satisfied with its form. Now began the revision in which the two first movements of the symphony were joined together by means of an ingenious bridge passage – moreover, this was done in a way that revealed the connections between the movements; thus the first two movements now form an organic whole.
In the version which was completed in 1916 the slow movement was apparently – to judge by the parts of the score that have survived – an intermediate form of the versions from the years 1915 and 1919. The same applies to the finale: in this, part of the original material had been temporarily discarded and replaced with ideas which were eventually cut from the 1919 version. The precise revisions of the second (December 1916) version are not entirely clear, as the critics did not make detailed comparisons with the previous version.
The third version was the only version that Sibelius was satisfied with. The beginning was not far from its original form, but the slow movement had become a more versatile movement with rich and ambiguous variations of its theme. In the finale some loosely-connected episodes were eliminated, but the splendid largamente section of the 1915 version was restored.
On the 22nd April Sibelius wrote: The fifth symphony – mirabile, [not] to say horribile dictu: completed in its final form. Been struggling with God." Six days later he was already striking out the second and third movements! However, after one more revision of the finale the whole work was at last ready. "Now it is good," Sibelius wrote.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
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This is a symphony that took me awhile to understand and actually come around to enjoying (not that it was ever displeasing to my ears). The 5th has long fascinated me especially coming after the rather austere 4th (my personal favorite Sibelius symphony). A heartfelt farewell and the idea of transience are themes that I personally associate with the 5th. As I mentioned several times, the final movement, for me, is like the parting of two lovers who perhaps know it's time to move on while one is on the dock waving goodbye to the other who is on a boat that's sailing off into the sunset. As for performances, I love Vanska's Lahti performance with Segerstam's Helsinki performance coming into second place. It doesn't get much better then these two performances for me.
What do you guys think of this symphony? Any favorite performances?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2015, 06:49:26 AM
This is a symphony that took me awhile to understand and actually come around to enjoying
For me it was the Symphony that made me fall in love with Sibelius (well, I liked
Finlandia when I was a teen but I never got beyond that piece until I heard Maazel and Cleveland perform the Fifth in 1971.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2015, 06:49:26 AM
What do you guys think of this symphony? Any favorite performances?
It's one of my Top 5 Symphonies of All Time (Mahler 6, Brahms 4, Nielsen 3, RVW4 are the others).
Favorite versions: Rattle/Philharmonia, Bernstein/NY, Berglund/Bournemouth. I like the hammerblows at the end to be stretched out to the max 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
For me it was the Symphony that made me fall in love with Sibelius (well, I liked Finlandia when I was a teen but I never got beyond that piece until I heard Maazel and Cleveland perform the Fifth in 1971.
It's one of my Top 5 Symphonies of All Time (Mahler 6, Brahms 4, Nielsen 3, RVW4 are the others).
Favorite versions: Rattle/Philharmonia, Bernstein/NY, Berglund/Bournemouth. I like the hammerblows at the end to be stretched out to the max 8)
Sarge
It's certainly a fine work, Sarge. Like I mentioned, I never disliked the 5th, it's impact just didn't register with me immediately. Now, of course, I find it to be absolutely incredible in every way imaginable. Yeah, I figured you'd like the hammer blows to be cranked up to 10. ;) ;D
I recall a critic who said that Sibelius had ruined the entire symphony with those ending chords...
Quote from: Alberich on June 14, 2015, 07:52:20 AM
I recall a critic who said that Sibelius had ruined the entire symphony with those ending chords...
There's a critic you don't need to listen to ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Alberich on June 14, 2015, 07:52:20 AM
I recall a critic who said that Sibelius had ruined the entire symphony with those ending chords...
Well we all know what Sibelius thought of critics and I feel the same way. :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2015, 06:49:26 AM
In the finale of the first version there are exciting dissonant features, which look back to the fourth symphony, and which Sibelius later smoothed out. Even the famous final strokes were still ligatured to each other with the timpani.
I much prefer it that way. The revision did indeed greatly enhance the work... except in the finale. IMO of course.
Collins' Sibelius cycle on vinyl [Aug 7]
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-S%C3%A4mtliche-Sinfonien-Ltd-Edt-Vinyl/dp/B00WRVMH7E (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-S%C3%A4mtliche-Sinfonien-Ltd-Edt-Vinyl/dp/B00WRVMH7E)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81VsNcY-Q8L._SL1500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/818axg%2BgysL._SL1500_.jpg)
That set looks pretty cool, Peter. I can't say I'm familiar with Collins at all. I've heard the name of course.
Time to regroup some past postings about works:
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
Lemminkäinen Suite, Op. 22
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YxWJwkIYaQI/VMdZ2iZ_ITI/AAAAAAAAGVI/TT550wEQwTU/s1600/Gallen_Kallela_The_Aino_Triptych.jpg)
The Lemminkäinen Suite (also called the Four Legends, or Four Legends from the Kalevala) is a work written by the Finnish composer Jean Sibelius in the early 1890s which forms his opus 22. Originally conceived as a mythological opera, Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat), on a scale matching those by Richard Wagner, Sibelius later changed his musical goals and the work became an orchestral piece in four movements. The suite is based on the character Lemminkäinen from the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala. The piece can also be considered a collection of symphonic poems. The second/third section, The Swan of Tuonela, is often heard separately (the work's inner movements are often reversed as their order is a subject of disagreement among scholars).
Lemminkäinen and the Maidens of the Island: this is based on Runo 29 ("Conquests") of the Kalevala, where Lemminkäinen travels to an island and seduces many of the women there, before fleeing the rage of the men on the island.
The Swan of Tuonela: this is the most popular of the four tone poems and often is featured alone from the suite in orchestral programs. It has a prominent cor anglais solo. The music paints a gossamer, transcendental image of a mystical swan swimming around Tuonela, the island of the dead. Lemminkäinen has been tasked with killing the sacred swan, but on the way he is shot with a poisoned arrow, and dies himself.
Lemminkäinen in Tuonela: this is based on Runos 14 ("Elk, horse, swan") and 15 ("Resurrection"). Lemminkäinen is in Tuonela, the land of the dead, to shoot the Swan of Tuonela to be able to claim the daughter of Louhi, mistress of the Northland, in marriage. However, the blind man of the Northland kills Lemminkäinen, whose body is then tossed in the river and then dismembered. Lemminkäinen's mother learns of his death, travels to Tuonela, recovers his body parts, reassembles him and restores him to life.
Lemminkäinen's Return: the storyline in the score roughly parallels the end of Runo 30 ("Jack Frost"), where after his adventures in battle, Lemminkäinen journeys home.
The above order of the movements matches their numbering within opus 22. However, Sibelius revised the order in 1947, transposing the middle two movements, which is the order in which most concert performances are played.
The suite is scored for two flutes (one doubling on the piccolo), two oboes (one doubling on the cor anglais), two clarinets (in B) (one doubling on bass clarinet), two basoons, four horns (in E and F), three trumpets (in E and F), three trombones, tuba, timpani, triangle, bass drum, cymbals, tambourine, harp, and strings.
[Article taken from Wikipedia]
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 10:20:32 AM
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2778/4334649125_6ea7d62a33_z.jpg?zz=1) (http://www.aarography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Finland-Scenic-Landscape-Nature-19.jpg)
Op. 63 Symphony no. 4 in A minor
1. Tempo molto moderato, quasi adagio, 2. Allegro molto vivace, 3. Il tempo largo, 4. Allegro. Completed in 1911; first performance in Helsinki on 3rd April 1911 (Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius).
The fourth symphony was once considered to be the strangest of Sibelius's symphonies, but today it is regarded as one of the peaks of his output. It has a density of expression, a chamber music-like transparency and a mastery of counterpoint that make it one of the most impressive manifestations of modernity from the period when it was written.
Sibelius had thoughts of a change of style while he was in Berlin in 1909. These ideas were still in his mind when he joined the artist Eero Järnefelt for a trip to Koli, the emblematic "Finnish mountain" in Karelia, close to Joensuu. The landscape of Koli was for Järnefelt an endless source of inspiration, and Sibelius said that he was going to listen to the "sighing of the winds and the roar of the storms". Indeed, the composer regarded his visit to Koli as one of the greatest experiences of his life. "Plans. La Montagne," he wrote in his diary on 27th September 1909.
The following year Sibelius was again travelling in Karelia, in Vyborg and Imatra, now acting as a guide to his friend and sponsor Rosa Newmarch. Newmarch later recollected how Sibelius eagerly strained his ears to hear the pedal points in the roar of Imatra's famous rapids and in other natural sounds.
The trip also had other objectives. On his return Sibelius wanted to develop his skills in counterpoint, since, as he put it, "the harmony is largely dependent on the purely musical patterning, its polyphony." His observations contained many ideas on the need for harmonic continuity. Since the orchestra lacked the pedal of the piano, Sibelius wanted to compensate for this with even more skilful orchestration.
Yet one more natural phenomenon – a storm in the south-eastern archipelago – was needed to get the symphonic work started. In addition, in November 1910 he was preparing the symphony at the same time as he was working on music for Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven, which he had promised to Aino Ackté. The Raven was never finished, but its atmosphere and sketches had an effect on the fourth symphony.
The symphony was performed for the first time on 3rd April 1911, in Helsinki. Its tone was both modern and introspective, and it confused the audience so much that the applause was subdued. "Evasive glances, shakes of the head, embarrassed or secretly ironic smiles. Not many came to the dressing room to deliver their congratulations," Aino Sibelius recollected later. The critics, too, were at a loss. "Everything was so strange," was how Heikki Klemetti described the atmosphere. In the years that followed audiences in many parts of the world reacted the same way.
However, Sibelius remained happy with the symphony and after the first public performance he prepared it for publication. Nowadays, the fourth symphony has come to be recognised as one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century and one of Sibelius's most magnificent achievements. It was, after all, contemporary music of the utmost modernity, a work from which all traces of aesthetisation or artificiality had been eliminated.
A kind of motto for the work is the augmented fourth, or tritone, which creates tension in all the four movements of the symphony. The atmosphere of the work varies from joyfulness to austere expressionism. Every movement fades into silence. We are as far as we could be from the triumphant finales of the second and third symphonies.
Indeed, the fourth symphony often seems to shock listeners, and analysis of the work can turn into philosophising. It is as if Sibelius were directly penetrating the merciless core of life, laying it bare without offering any kind of false consolation. He himself had felt close to death a few years earlier, when a tumour had been removed from his throat in an operation.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 09:30:45 PM
The Oceanides, Op. 73
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1c/cd/9d/1ccd9d5eb12f6c232761ebf1e3e18427.jpg) (http://uploads8.wikiart.org/images/isaac-levitan/sea-by-the-coasts-of-finland-1896.jpg)
Op. 73 Aallottaret (The Oceanides), symphonic poem. Version 1, 1913 (?).
First movement of 1st version missing. First public performance of the 2nd and 3rd movements in Lahti 19th and 20th September 2002.
2nd version in 1914; first performance in Lahti 24th October 2002 (Lahti Symphony Orchestra under Osmo Vänskä). Version 2 (in D flat major), April 1914. First performance in Lahti, 24th October 2002 (Lahti Symphony Orchestra under Osmo Vänskä). Final version (in D major), May 1914. First performance in Norfolk (USA), 4th June 1914 (conducted by Jean Sibelius).
The Oceanides ("sea nymphs"; in Finnish Aallottaret or "nymphs of the waves") was written for the Norfolk Music Festival in the United States. It resulted from a commission by Horatio Parker, who was acting on the authorisation of the millionaire and festival promoter Carl Stoeckel and his wife. In 1913 Sibelius started to prepare the work, initially as a suite in three movements. The first movement of the suite has not survived but the second and third movements were performed for the first time as unexpected encores in the autumn of 2002, at the Lahti Sibelius festival under Osmo Vänskä.
The movements are sketchy and their orchestration may be incomplete. The thematic material of The Oceanides is clearly recognisable in the third movement. The second movement is more heterogeneous, and material from it ended up in other compositions. Sibelius wrote on the sketches: "Fragments of a suite for orchestra (Precursor to 'The Oceanides')". Nevertheless, the sketch-like movements are good and interesting music in their own right.
In the spring of 1914 Sibelius prepared a one-movement orchestral work in D flat major from the material. He sent it to the United States on 3rd April. Sibelius considered giving the composition a German title, but in a copyist's receipt from 3rd April the name is already Aallottaret (The Oceanides). Along with the score Sibelius sent a brief explanation in German of what Aallottaret means in Finnish mythology.
Only a few days later Sibelius was asked, if he could come to the United States and conduct the work. He answered in the affirmative. At the same time, he decided to revise the composition, as we know from Aino Sibelius's diary. She writes as follows:
"I am very nervous about that journey, although I see how Janne can benefit from it. And it may be such fun! Janne is rewriting the whole American composition, Aallottaret, as it is called at least for the time being. It is so exhausting for me, but I understand him.Today we have been thinking of adding to the programme for America. Half of the concert programme falls to Janne."
In May the composition temporarily had a German name once again. Aino Sibelius describes the feverish process of copying the music:
"(14th May) The journey to America is approaching. Rondeau der Wellen is not yet completed. Feverish hurry. The journey has been scheduled for Saturday. The score is still unfinished. The copyist, Mr. Kauppi, lives with us and writes day and night. Yesterday we learnt that he has to leave already on Friday evening. It's indescribable. It was a question of using every last hour. Besides, the whole practical side is completely unprepared. This can work only with Janne's energy. Otherwise the journey would be completely out of question. (...)
"Yesterday evening we couldn't accomplish anything practical anymore, but then Janne forced himself to work with his great strength. There are still about twenty pages missing. We lit the lamps in the dining-room, the chandelier in the drawing room, it was a solemn moment. I did not dare to say anything. I just tried to create a pleasant environment. Then I went to bed and Janne stayed awake. All night long I kept hearing his steps, sometimes quiet playing. Towards morning he had moved upstairs. The copyist was awake in his own chamber. It is morning now. The tension continues, there are many things to be done today. If I just could stay very calm, it is the only way in which I can now be of any use."
Sibelius was able to take the new score in D major with him on the journey. He made a few corrections to it, inspired by the sea voyage. But why was it necessary to change the fully prepared D flat major version into a version in D major? The composer Kalevi Aho believes that the reasons were connected with the practicalities of performance and technique:
"In D flat major the string players can hardly use any open strings at all, and because the work is very swift-moving in places, it is very difficult for the strings, both technically and in terms of getting a clear tone. In contrast, D major is a very rewarding key for the violins because you can always use open strings in the swift figures. On the other hand, the orchestral tone in D flat major is veiled, somehow mysterious and impressionistic. Compared with it D major sounds clearer, but also more matter-of-fact. Maybe Sibelius was afraid of the reaction of the musicians to technically difficult music in D flat major and that was why he changed the key and rewrote the work once again. I don't think that purely musical weaknesses would have required a new version in this case."
In Aho's opinion the change of key and the simplification of a few details made the work easier to perform, but at the same time the composition lost "something essential" as regards the sound quality.
In the United States Sibelius realised at the rehearsals that the work was demanding enough for the musicians even in D major. According to Carl Stoeckel The Oceanides was very different from anything the musicians had played previously.
Nevertheless, the concert was a splendid success. Indeed, the audience wept with emotion during Finlandia and Valse triste. The critics, too, were exultant and the composer himself was enthusiastic:
"Up till now I have never (...) conducted another orchestra made up of so many skilful musicians as that orchestra of a hundred players that Mr. Stoeckel got together from Boston and from the New York Metropolitan Opera. For example, in The Oceanides I achieved a build-up that, to a very great degree, surprised even myself.
In The Oceanides Sibelius utilises Debussy's impressionist tone world. It should be remembered, however, that this aspect had already become apparent in the musical language of Sibelius, in such early orchestral works as Kullervo and Lemminkäinen in Tuonela.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2015, 12:51:02 PM
The Origin of Fire, Op. 32
(http://www.thisfamilytree.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/forest_fire.jpg) (http://www.topnews.in/files/crown_fire.jpg)
Op. 32 Tulen synty (The Origin of Fire) for baritone, male choir and orchestra; words from Kalevala. First version 1902; first performance in Helsinki, 9th February 1902 (Abraham Ojanperä, "Jubilee Choir", Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius). Final version 1910, piano score 1910.
The Origin of Fire was Sibelius's contribution to the opening of the National Theatre in 1902. It is definitely one Sibelius's best works for choir and orchestra since Kullervo, which had been completed ten years earlier.
The 47th rune of Kalevala stirred Sibelius's patriotic feelings. It mentioned a dark night, which could be understood to reflect the feelings of the people under the rule of Governor-General Bobrikov. The rune ends with a description of the origin of fire. This was seen to symbolise the awakening of the people.
The first public performance on 9th April 1902 was only part of a very long Christmas programme. Päivälehti published the lyrics of the work the following day, commenting only that "the magnificent work made a powerful impact on the audience"..
The work remained in the repertoire and was performed regularly in Finland in the years that followed. Sibelius understood the value of his work and revised it eight years later. The dark and severe composition shows considerable skill in the baritone, choir and orchestral parts, although Erik Tawaststjerna thought their were some stereotypical elements in the solutions the composer arrived at. The work shows a side of Sibelius that combines patriotism with real compositional interest.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52
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The Symphony No. 3 in C major, Op. 52, by Jean Sibelius is a symphony in three movements composed in 1907. Coming between the romantic intensity of Sibelius's first two symphonies and the more austere complexity of his later symphonies, it is a good-natured, triumphal, and deceptively simple-sounding piece. The symphony's first performance was given by the Helsinki Philharmonic Society, conducted by the composer, on 25 September 1907. In the same concert, his suite from the incidental music to Belshazzar's Feast, Op. 51, was also performed for the first time.
The first recording featured the Finnish conductor Robert Kajanus and the London Symphony Orchestra, for the HMV label in January 1934.
The Third symphony represents a turning point in Sibelius's symphonic output. His First and Second symphonies are grandiose Romantic and patriotic works. The Third, however, shows a distinct, almost Classical desire to contain the largest amount of musical material in the fewest possible melodic figures, harmonies, and durations. This musical economy is most apparent in the first movement, almost reminiscent of Beethoven in its clear and cleanly developed sections. A typical performance runs slightly under half an hour. The piece is scored for an orchestra including 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets (in Bb and A), 2 bassoons, 4 horns (in F), 2 trumpets (in Bb), 3 trombones, timpani, and strings.
I. Allegro moderato
II. Andantino con moto, quasi allegretto
III. Moderato – Allegro ma non tanto
The symphony opens with a strident and rhythmic melody in the cellos and double basses, after the announcement of which the brass and the remaining strings enter the scene in turn. The C-F♯ tritone, which plays such an important role in both this and the next symphony, is clearly articulated and emphasised as early as the beginning of bar 15 by a rinforzando marking. A lilting, almost folk-like flute solo gives way to a triumphant horn call over brush-like strings in the first of three major climaxes in the first movement. After this rush of sound, the gentle serenity of the opening is recalled by the cellos once again, but this time in a more vulnerable and sostenuto manner in the more remote key of B minor.
From this point, the music gently winds down. Then, a succession of woodwind instruments recall the second cello melody over soft string scales, which repeatedly recall the opening of the movement. The tension grows and finally explodes into the opening theme, underscored by timpani, and the violins flit their way over a pulsating cushion of brass-and-woodwind chorales and offbeat pizzicatos in the cellos. The flute theme is once again recalled, and the second cello theme is finally brought to life by the entire orchestra; played in the string section, the timpani and woodwind provide rhythmic material while more brass chorales are sustained throughout the section.
The music once again winds down, but this time, before it is let go completely, a glorious flute and horn chorale lead into more recollections of past themes, which have the last word before this phenomenal movement closes in a manner that is brilliant in its simplicity: two two-chord "Amen" cadences (plagal cadences) in E minor (a chord of A minor followed by a chord of E minor), which, because there is no F in either chord, leave the F-F♯ dichotomy (set up by the C-F♯ tritone near the beginning of the work) unresolved; this dichotomy is then finally resolved (for the time-being at least) by a single plagal cadence in C (F major, then C major).
The opening of the second movement is a nocturne, a movement of supreme clarity and austere romantics, seemingly contradictory, but immediately accessible; the first section almost waltzes out of the pervading darkness, but, in a constrained manner, the music refuses to do so. Commentators disagree over exactly what form the structure of this movement represents; however the four appearances of the theme with developmental episodes suggest a kind of rondo. After the extended introduction, a brief moment of lightness gives way to the string section taking over the theme, with woodwinds and horns providing masterful, touching comments. The music is propelled to the end by perpetual cello pizzicatos, and then the second movement ends in several string pulses where the midnight waltz grinds to a halt in which the tune is still almost recognizable.
The last movement is really two movements compacted into a single finale. Sibelius described it as 'the crystallisation of chaos'. The opening contains thematic fragments from previous material and of material yet to come. A hushed, tense scherzo breaks into a triumphant chorale (with prominent C-F♯ tritone) which is repeated several times. The coda brings the chorale-type theme into greater and greater expanses, until at long last the symphony concludes in a compendium of the chorale theme and a rush of string figures and woodwind scales. The cadence brings the piece to an almost abrupt halt with a single, arpeggiated C major triad in the brass. The piece is relatively short, usually lasting about 31 minutes.
[Article taken from Wikipedia]
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 02, 2015, 09:46:11 AM
The Tempest, Op. 109
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Sibelius: Music for "The Tempest" by William Shakespeare, op. 109 (1925-26)
Sibelius's late period has puzzling aspects. When the composer approached the age of 60, he found it more and more difficult to work. "Self-criticism is increasing to the point of impossibility," he commented. Yet there is no trace of these problems in the compositions dating from the start of the 1920s. The writing of the sixth and the seventh symphony (1923, 1924), and the music for The Tempest (1925-26) and Tapiola (1926) seem to have been rather easy for Sibelius compared to the difficult composition process of the fifth symphony (1915-19). Most importantly: in the same way as Sibelius in his last symphony perfected a genre which was vitally important to him, Tapiola is a masterly conclusion to his series of symphonic poems and The Tempest is his most magnificent work of incidental music.
The immediate impetus for The Tempest was an inquiry from Sibelius's Danish publisher Wilhelm Hansen, who asked in May 1925: "Have you composed music for The Tempest? Det Kongelige Teater in Copenhagen is going to perform this play and would like to use your music."
Interestingly enough, as early as 1901 Sibelius's friend and patron Axel Carpelan (died 1919) had suggested: "Now look here Mr S., shouldn't you someday direct your interest to the dramas of Shakespeare ... The Tempest should be very appropriate for you: Prospero (magician), Miranda, spirits of the earth and air etc." Given that Sibelius would shortly (1926) compose another work that had been suggested by Carpelan, a "Waldsymphonie" (realised as Tapiola), one could speculate that the subject-matter of The Tempest had been in his mind for a long time. The fate of another aging artist, Prospero, may have been one that he felt he could identify with.
The score of the new stage work began to take shape surprisingly quickly, during the autumn of 1925, and possibly also at the beginning of the following year. The incidental music lasts for over an hour. It is composed for vocalists, mixed-voice choir, harmonium and a large orchestra. The music comprises 36 pieces in all.
The first public performance took place in Copenhagen on 15th March 1926, and the music of the play was considered particularly successful.
"Shakespeare and Sibelius, these two geniuses, have found each other," was one comment.
Immediately after the premiere Sibelius wrote: "The Tempest music has many themes which I would like to deal with more thoroughly. Because of the drama I have only been able to outline them." It appears that the climax of Tapiola and its whole-tone and chromatic textures do indeed develop from the overture to The Tempest. Unfortunately, the composer gave up his intentions in other respects. The two orchestral suites prepared from the incidental music, plus the overture (published as a separate piece) comprise 19 pieces in all. In these Sibelius actually condensed and combined items from the stage music, sometimes in somewhat strange ways which obscured the drama. Consequently, restoration of the original incidental music for concert performance is completely justified, especially since many of the pieces that Sibelius left out of the suites are of high musical excellence. The restored (i.e. the original) version is described below.
In The Tempest Sibelius's orchestral genius is at its most splendid. His ingenuity, his talent for creating utterly new orchestral colours seems inexhaustible. The magical sonorities of the pieces - which are familiar from the suites – are revitalised when we hear them in their original form. A dreamlike, intoxicating atmosphere is conjured up by the harp and harmonium in the Chorus of the Winds (No. 4) and by the combination of harp and harmonium with high muted strings and solo flute in The Oak (no. 9).
Moreover, in the reconstituted version certain pieces strike home with full force. These include the short, recurrent phrases depicting the flight of Ariel (nos. 3, 5, 21, 28-30), and various items that are pruned to a torso in the suites but which are allowed their full extent in the incidental music - the characterisation of the villainous Antonio (no. 17) and the thrillingly dissonant portrait of Prospero (no. 32). In addition, the interlude depicting Caliban (no. 11) and the powerful baroque portrait of Prospero (no. 8) are both much more impressive in their original length.
Above all one is grateful for ten entirely new pieces, among them a few delightful songs. These include Ariel's Third Song (no. 10) and the wild Stefano's Song (No. 12). In waltz rhythm we have Iris's Recitation (no. 24) and the gallant Juno's Song (no. 25). Finally, we have the splendid Cortège (no. 34) and, to conclude, the questioning Epilogue (no. 34 bis).
In the original music for The Tempest Sibelius proves to be a tone poet at the height of his creative powers. The music ranges from Baroque in the style of Corelli and Purcell to Stravinskian Neoclassicism (Scene, no. 31) and Prokofievian brashness (Caliban pieces 11 and 13). Despite the range of styles he manages to keep the music together. He combines the grossest commedia dell'arte (Stephano's and Caliban's songs, and The Drinking Companions' Canon, no. 16) with the most elevated tragedy (the Prospero pieces) – and in a genuinely Shakespearean spirit. In The Tempest Sibelius created one of his most ingenious orchestral scores.
Synopsis
With the help of Alonso, King of Naples, Antonio has seized power from his brother Prospero, Duke of Milan. With his daughter Miranda, Prospero
has settled down on a desert island, whose inhabitants - Ariel, a spirit of the air, and Caliban, a monster - he rules over by means of his magic powers. After several years a ship sails past the island. On board are Antonio and also Alonso, together with his son Ferdinand, his brother Sebastian and the courtier Gonzalo. The musical pieces start from this point (1-34bis.):
No. 1, Overture (later the ninth piece of the first concert suite, = I/9 The Tempest).
The ship sinks in a tempest raised by Prospero.
Act 1
No. 2, Miranda Falls Asleep (I/7b: Berceuse). Miranda is shocked at seeing the shipwreck. Prospero tells her about his past, then uses his magic to make her fall asleep.
No. 3, Ariel Flies In. Prospero calls on Ariel's help. (Note: Being a spirit, Ariel is asexual. On the stage the role is usually played by a man or a young boy, but Sibelius gave the role to a female vocalist.)
No. 4, Chorus of the Winds (II/1: Chorus of the Winds). Ariel tells how he sank the ship; the music depicts the gentle winds after the tempest.
No. 5, Ariel Hurries Away. Prospero tells Ariel to leave, and to turn into a mermaid whom only Prospero can see.
No. 6, Ariel's First Song with introduction and chorus (II/8: The Naiads). After an exchange of words between Prospero and Caliban, Ariel returns as an invisible mermaid, playing and singing, accompanied by the barking of dogs and the crowing of cocks.
No. 7, Ariel's Second Song (I/8b: Ariel's song). Ferdinand is sitting on the beach mourning his father, whom he believes to be dead. Ariel confirms the death in his song.
Act 2
No. 8, Interlude (II/4: Prospero). The music paints a portrait of the noble Prospero, after which we move to the characters from the shipwreck.
No. 9, The Oak Tree; Ariel plays the flute (I/1: The Oak). Alonso is grieving, believing his son to be dead. The others curse their fate, that they have ended up on a desert island. Ariel comes to play the flute, whereupon some members of the groupfall asleep.
No. 10, Ariel's Third Song. After the others have fallen asleep, Antonio and Sebastian intend to kill Alonso and Gonzalo, but Ariel returns to hinder the plans.
No. 11, Interlude [Caliban] (I/6: middle part of Scène). This is a portrait of the monster Caliban, whom Prospero has enslaved.
Nro 12, Stephano' Song. Caliban meets the jester Trinculo, who was saved from the shipwreck, and the hard-drinking cup-bearer Stephano, who sings with a bottle in his hand.
No. 13, Caliban's Song (I/3 Caliban's song). When Caliban gets his "heavenly drink" he thinks Stephano is a god and regards him as his new master.
Act 3
No. 14, Interlude [Miranda] (II/7: Miranda). The act begins with an interlude which portrays the charming girl Miranda; with the help of Prospero, Miranda and Ferdinand have found each other.
No. 15 (I/2: Humoreske). Stephano, Trinculo and Caliban squabble with each other.
No. 16, Canon (I/5: Canon). The companions plan to kill Prospero, sing a canon and march off, guided by Ariel's music.
No. 17, Devil's Dance (II/9: Dance Episode). Antonio and Sebastian once again plan to murder Alonso; a Spanish dance portrays Antonio.
No. 18, Ariel as a Harpy (I/1: The Oak, only the first chords). Devilish creatures set a table for the survivors, but the feast ends when Ariel arrives in the guise of a harpy and wipes the table clean with his wings.
No. 19, Dance II [The Devils Dance Away] (I/4:The Harvesters, final sequence). Strange creatures carry away the table and disappear, dancing.
No. 20, Intermezzo (II/2: Intermezzo). Alonso repents of his deeds, believing that Prospero has caused his son's death as revenge; the music between the third and fourth acts depicts Alonso's grief.
Act 4
No. 21, Ariel Flies In [= No. 3]. Prospero admits that he has tested Ferdinand. But now he grants Miranda to Ferdinand and summons Ariel.
No. 22, Ariel's Fourth Song (II/5: Song). At the request of Prospero, Ariel conjures up a harvest feast from antiquity, complete with goddesses, to celebrate the engagement of the young couple.
No. 23, The Rainbow (I/8a: Interlude). A rainbow illuminates a feast held in honour of Iris, the goddess of the rainbow.
No. 24, Iris's Recitation. Iris's recitation is accompanied by a waltz rhythm.
No. 25, Juno's Song. In her waltz song the supreme goddess Juno wishes the young couple "riches, love, long life, kindness, happiness and honour".
No. 26, Dance Of The Naiads (II/3: Dance of the Nymphs). The mermaids dance a charming minuet.
No. 27, The Harvester (I/4: The Harvesters). The harvesters join in the dance.
No. 28, Ariel Flies In [= No. 3]. Prospero remembers Caliban's deceitful plan and summons Ariel again.
No. 29, Ariel Flies Off [= No. 5]. Prospero commands Ariel to fetch fine garments to lure the thieves, and Ariel hurries away.
No. 30, Ariel flies In. Ariel returns immediately after carrying out the command.
No. 31, The Dogs (I/6: Scéne). Caliban, Stephano and Trinculo intend to kill Prospero, but are charmed by the garments.
They try them on, until spirits in the shapes of dogs - summoned by Prospero - drive the villains away.
Act 5
No. 31bis, Overture (II/6: Song II). As an introduction we hear an Overture. This is the same music as Ariel's 5th song which comes a little later.
No. 32 Intrada (I/7a: Intrada). Prospero in his magician's robe commands Ariel to go and free those he has practised his magic on; his decision to give up his magic powers is characterised by "mindless chords followed by festive music".
No. 33, Ariel's Fifth Song (II/6: Song II). Prospero once again dresses in the apparel of the Duke of Milan and sets Ariel free. Ariel rejoices.
No. 34, Cortège. Both the virtuous characters and those who had fallen into error come to Prospero. He pardons everybody. After the amnesty and a happy reunion the whole party proceeds to Prospero's cabin to the rhythm of a festive polonaise.
No. 34bis, Epilogue.
For a performance in Helsinki in 1927 Sibelius wrote this additional concluding piece, full of majestic resignation, in the spirit of Prospero's music
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2015, 07:02:58 AM
The Wood-Nymph, Op. 15
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Op. 15 Skogsrået (The Wood Nymph), symphonic poem (ballad); based on a poem by Viktor Rydberg of the same name. Completed 1894-95; first public performance in Helsinki, 17th April 1895 (Orchestra of Helsinki Orchestral Society under Jean Sibelius). Arrangement as a play with music (for narrator, piano, two French horns and strings), first public performance in the premises of the Helsinki Club, 9th March 1895; piano arrangement of the final sequence (Ur "Skogsrået") 1895.
An early sketch of Skogsrået or The Wood Nymph may have been included in the plan for an opera in the summer of 1894. In addition to the opera (The Building of the Boat), Sibelius was planning a stage work about an unfaithful student. According to a theory presented by the musicologist Veijo Murtomäki, the "march-like musical piece" which Sibelius mentioned in a letter of 10th August 1894 could be the opening sequence of The Wood Nymph, while the trip to the forest would be the second sequence, the descriptions of unfaithfulness and sensual love the third sequence and the funeral march the finale of the work.
However, towards the end of 1894 the plan became more specific, and Sibelius decided to base the work on Viktor Rydberg's Skogsrået. In March 1895 Sibelius completed "the first sketch" of The Wood Nymph – a play with music, for narrator, strings, two French horns and piano. It was performed on the occasion of a lottery at the premises of the Helsinki Club, on 9th March 1895.
Viktor Rydberg's text related the adventures of the hero Björn in the forest, where evil dwarfs are carrying out their malicious schemes and a curvaceous wood nymph lures Björn into making love to her. The spell he is under cannot be broken: Björn can no longer love his wife. Nor does he feel like working. He dies alone and full of yearning.
The orchestral version of The Wood Nymph was performed on 17th April 1895. The Wagnerian features of this erotically charged work were now more obvious than before. According to Merikanto The Wood Nymph included strange and enchanting colours, but one had to know the content of the poem to understand it. "And indeed, the audience were very attentive in following the content of the composition from the programme notes," he wrote.
In his opinion Sibelius's music had changed: it had gained in clarity as compared with its earlier "excessively passionate and incoherent fumbling".
The Wood Nymph remained in Sibelius's concert programmes for years. For instance, it was performed in 1899 when the first symphony had its first public performance. Although the piece was basically well worked-out, Sibelius never prepared the manuscript for publication. It gradually sank into oblivion with the exception of a single performance in 1936. Then, in the late 1990s, the work was again thrust into the international spotlight after the Lahti Symphony Orchestra had played and recorded it.
Opinions of the work have varied. Erik Tawaststjerna did not regard the composition as "central" to Sibelius's output, arguing that the composer "did not succeed in merging the different materials into a coherent whole". The composer Kalevi Aho took the same view: "An interesting work which would have needed more polishing."
The Sibelius scholar Veijo Murtomäki has defended The Wood Nymph: "One of the finest moments in the work is the modal-diatonic sound field which starts after the majestic opening and lasts for several minutes, bringing to mind Gorecki's third symphony!"
The opening is is indeed majestic, with an impressive theme in C major portraying Björn. After that we experience that long, almost minimalist "sound field", which ends with the return of the heroic theme. In the third episode we witness the meeting of Björn and the Wood Nymph. The long instrumental line from the cellos produces an extremely erotic atmosphere. However, the atmosphere changes to melancholy in the final episode, which depicts the hopeless yearning of the hero.
In The Wood Nymph, the listener can admire the young Sibelius's sensual orchestration and glowing tone colours.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 14, 2015, 06:49:26 AM
Symphony No. 5 in E flat major, Op. 82
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First version 1915: 1. Tempo moderato assai, 2. Allegro commodo, 3. Andante mosso, 4. Allegro commodo - Largamente molto; first performance in Helsinki on 8th December 1915 (Helsinki City Orchestra under Jean Sibelius).
Second version 1916: 1. Tempo molto moderato, 2. Andante mosso, 3. Allegro molto - Largamente assai; first performance in Turku on 8th December 1916 (Orchestra of Turun Soitannollinen Seura under Jean Sibelius).
Final version 1919: 1. Tempo molto moderato - Allegro moderato (ma poco a poco stretto), 2. Andante mosso, quasi allegretto, 3. Allegro molto; first performance in Helsinki, 24th November 1919 (Helsinki City Orchestra under Jean Sibelius).
The second and fifth symphonies compete for the title of Sibelius's most popular symphony. Both sound splendid and end in a blaze of glory.
The sovereign mastery of the fifth symphony gives no hint of the years of hard decision-making that went into it. Ideas were conceived initially, then discarded, then rewritten, then finally taken up again in a new form.
During the First World War Sibelius as a composer led his life "on two levels". His contacts with the outside world were sparse because of the war, and financial pressures forced him to produce a great number of small pieces for Finnish publishers. At the same time he was planning an entirely new kind of symphony. He would write three different versions of it before he was satisfied with the result.
Sibelius had been thinking about the fifth symphony, at least since the spring of 1912 when he was working on other pieces. In the summer of 1914, just after the outbreak of the First World War, he wrote that he had got an idea for "a lovely theme". Then in the autumn of 1914 he wrote a prophecy to his friend Axel Carpelan: "Another depth of misery. But I can already make out the mountain that I shall ascend (...) God is opening his doors for a moment, and his orchestra is playing the fifth symphony."
While Sibelius's diary notes show that his mood during the fourth symphony was one of determination, the initial stages of the fifth symphony seemed to be filled with ecstasy. "The autumn sun is shining. Nature in its farewell colours. My heart is singing sadly – the shadows grow longer. The Adagio of my fifth symphony? That I, poor fellow that I am, can have moments of such richness!!" he wrote on 10th October 1914. And in November the sentiment grew even stronger: "I have a lovely theme. An adagio for the symphony – earth, worms and misery, fortissimo and sordinos [mutes], lots of sordinos. And the melodies are divine!!"
In another diary entry (April 1915) Sibelius wrote: "In the evening, working on the symphony. This important task which strangely enchants me. As if God the Father had thrown down pieces of a mosaic from the floor of heaven and asked me to work out the pattern." Indeed, he produced a "mosaic" of drafts during the autumn and winter of 1914. But from such an assembly of material can we know which draft belonged to which movement, or even to which work?
In addition to the symphony Sibelius was planning a violin concerto, which he also discussed with Breitkopf & Härtel. And this plan began to develop into yet another work, the sixth symphony. Themes were moved from one draft to another. Part of the first drafts for the sixth symphony finally ended up in the fifth symphony - and the second theme of the finale of the sixth symphony can first be found among the drafts for the fifth symphony!
On the 21st April Sibelius saw sixteen swans. In his diary he immediately wrote a magnificent thematic sequence, which ended up in the finale of the fifth symphony. "One of the great experiences of my life! God, how beautiful," he wrote in his diary.
Erik Tawaststjerna made an in-depth analysis of the way in which Sibelius developed the ideas in his sketchbook into his fifth symphony. Tawaststjerna divided the motifs (those that passed the self-criticism stage) into those generated by a "stepping impulse" and those generated by a "rocking impulse".
Both of these impulses are clearly present in the first version of the fifth symphony, which was performed in Helsinki on the composer's 50th birthday, 8th December 1915. It achieved enormous and immediate success. Sibelius was already a national hero, and the reception was overwhelming: the composer had to receive delegations for hours before the concert, the audience shrieked for joy during the concert, and the celebrations continued over several days and many performances.
The reception of the first version is reflected in Otto Kotilainen's review in Helsingin Sanomat. The symphony was still in four movements, and Kotilainen noted quite correctly that the second movement stood in a very close relation to the first. In the first version the first movement ends in an oddly inconclusive manner, as if it were an introduction to the second movement. Kotilainen regarded the third, slow movement as "one of the strangest andante movements ever written", describing it in terms of "simplicity, depth, beauty" (and soon Sibelius discovered that the slow movement was still too simple in this form).
According to Kotilainen the finale was like the raging of the forces of nature. In the canon at the end Kotilainen heard the "wildest dissonances" as the theme criss-crossed from one instrument to another. "True musical magic," the critic marvelled. He declared the fifth symphony to be a masterpiece.
The review shows how much the first version differed from the final version. The original version is clearly longer, and the scherzo episode at the end of the first movement is still a separate movement. In the finale of the first version there are exciting dissonant features, which look back to the fourth symphony, and which Sibelius later smoothed out. Even the famous final strokes were still ligatured to each other with the timpani. In 1995, the first version attracted international attention, when Osmo Vänskä recorded it with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra.
Sibelius was preparing the symphony for publication in January 1916, but he was not satisfied with its form. Now began the revision in which the two first movements of the symphony were joined together by means of an ingenious bridge passage – moreover, this was done in a way that revealed the connections between the movements; thus the first two movements now form an organic whole.
In the version which was completed in 1916 the slow movement was apparently – to judge by the parts of the score that have survived – an intermediate form of the versions from the years 1915 and 1919. The same applies to the finale: in this, part of the original material had been temporarily discarded and replaced with ideas which were eventually cut from the 1919 version. The precise revisions of the second (December 1916) version are not entirely clear, as the critics did not make detailed comparisons with the previous version.
The third version was the only version that Sibelius was satisfied with. The beginning was not far from its original form, but the slow movement had become a more versatile movement with rich and ambiguous variations of its theme. In the finale some loosely-connected episodes were eliminated, but the splendid largamente section of the 1915 version was restored.
On the 22nd April Sibelius wrote: The fifth symphony – mirabile, [not] to say horribile dictu: completed in its final form. Been struggling with God." Six days later he was already striking out the second and third movements! However, after one more revision of the finale the whole work was at last ready. "Now it is good," Sibelius wrote.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
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Oh jeez...Ken.... ::) ;D
Quote from: Moonfish on June 12, 2015, 06:57:13 PM
There is another box from Decca (11 cds) as well with Flagstad, Nilsson, Collins, Rosbaud, and Van Beinum listed as artists/conductors.
Sibelius: Great Performances (Aug 7, 2015) - no image yet
http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Great-Performances-Flagstad/dp/B00YG7W8EO (http://www.amazon.de/Sibelius-Great-Performances-Flagstad/dp/B00YG7W8EO)
Now with added art.. :)
The Collins cycle (currently available separately on Eloquence) is included in this release.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91581ktvD4L._SL1500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZAq112jQL._SL1417_.jpg)
Cool, but what about a tracklisting? I don't own Collins' symphony cycle, so this may be a worthy addition to my collection. I'm just a bit put off by the fact that the Collins is in antique sound quality, which could actually be why I don't own his cycle already.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
I don't own Collins' symphony cycle, so this may be a worthy addition to my collection....
...or not. The two twofers are Classics Today CDs from Hell:
"...these mid-1950s performances are mediocre and irrelevant, compromised by Anthony Collins' lack of distinctive insights (other than basically correct tempos) and the orchestra's often miserable response. Most awful is the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, with horrible woodwinds in the first half, perhaps the flabbiest non-happening of a transitional climax ever recorded, and a coda missing its timpani solo and featuring vile trumpet tone. Symphony No. 6 suffers from really scruffy string playing, and where the playing isn't bad the performance is simply boring, particularly in the finale.
"The Second and Fourth Symphonies are both pretty dreadful. The first movement of the former and the finale of the latter stand among the dullest on disc, resolutely flat and under-inflected."
"...there isn't a bar here that hasn't been realized more effectively, in much finer sound, from the likes of Colin Davis, Bernstein, Ormandy, Karajan, Blomstedt, Vänskä, Segerstam, Gibson, Berglund, and perhaps a dozen other conductors of greater or lesser repute."
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2015, 01:13:04 PM
...or not. The two twofers are Classics Today CDs from Hell:
"...these mid-1950s performances are mediocre and irrelevant, compromised by Anthony Collins' lack of distinctive insights (other than basically correct tempos) and the orchestra's often miserable response. Most awful is the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, with horrible woodwinds in the first half, perhaps the flabbiest non-happening of a transitional climax ever recorded, and a coda missing its timpani solo and featuring vile trumpet tone. Symphony No. 6 suffers from really scruffy string playing, and where the playing isn't bad the performance is simply boring, particularly in the finale.
"The Second and Fourth Symphonies are both pretty dreadful. The first movement of the former and the finale of the latter stand among the dullest on disc, resolutely flat and under-inflected."
"...there isn't a bar here that hasn't been realized more effectively, in much finer sound, from the likes of Colin Davis, Bernstein, Ormandy, Karajan, Blomstedt, Vänskä, Segerstam, Gibson, Berglund, and perhaps a dozen other conductors of greater or lesser repute."
I knew there was a reason why I haven't bought Collins' cycle yet. ;) ;D
Listened again to Collins (it has been a year or so)..
Sibelius: Symphony No 1 London SO/Collins
Middle-of-the road performance impaired by the recording engineers.
Every time I listen to this performance I am struck by the hollow metallic sound in the recording. I immediately reach for the bass (more) and treble (less) to improve the soundscape. There is a metallic emptiness that resides within the first movement that I have a difficult time with. The soundscape does not seem complete in my ears. The orchestra is detailed enough but somehow never reaches the levels I expect in Sibelius' works. Things improve in the second movement in this regard. However, I don't think the performance stands a chance against the fierce competition in the Sibelius realm (e.g. Vänskä or Segerstam - heck, I even prefer all the Davis cycles renditions of the first symphony over this one).
[asin] B00104CIPK[/asin]
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2015, 01:13:04 PM
...or not. The two twofers are Classics Today CDs from Hell:
"...these mid-1950s performances are mediocre and irrelevant, compromised by Anthony Collins' lack of distinctive insights (other than basically correct tempos) and the orchestra's often miserable response. Most awful is the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, with horrible woodwinds in the first half, perhaps the flabbiest non-happening of a transitional climax ever recorded, and a coda missing its timpani solo and featuring vile trumpet tone. Symphony No. 6 suffers from really scruffy string playing, and where the playing isn't bad the performance is simply boring, particularly in the finale.
"The Second and Fourth Symphonies are both pretty dreadful. The first movement of the former and the finale of the latter stand among the dullest on disc, resolutely flat and under-inflected."
"...there isn't a bar here that hasn't been realized more effectively, in much finer sound, from the likes of Colin Davis, Bernstein, Ormandy, Karajan, Blomstedt, Vänskä, Segerstam, Gibson, Berglund, and perhaps a dozen other conductors of greater or lesser repute."
Sarge,
I read this after posting my impressions of Collins' rendition of the first symphony. Interesting how it kind of echoes the reviews you referred to. The performance just seem half-baked. Doesn't the Collins cycle have a following (well, not at GMG)? I see it occasionally referred to as a hallmark recording. ???
Just as I suspected of the Collins' cycle, Peter. Glad I never pursued the cycle any further.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 06:58:14 PM
Just as I suspected of the Collins' cycle, Peter. Glad I never pursued the cycle any further.
Ha ha! I will (attempt to) listen to the whole Collins cycle, but the first symphony wasn't exactly a thrilling experience. It is only four cds after all. I take my time as I tend to mix up cycles (and composers) in my listening sessions. 0:)
Now I need Vänskä's Minnesota recording as an antidote!!!!
Quote from: Moonfish on June 16, 2015, 07:04:45 PM
Ha ha! I will (attempt to) listen to the whole Collins cycle, but the first symphony wasn't exactly a thrilling experience. It is only four cds after all. I take my time as I tend to mix up cycles (and composers) in my listening sessions. 0:)
Now I need Vänskä's Minnesota recording as an antidote!!!!
Good luck on listening to the Collins cycle. You'll probably need it. ;)
How is Berglund's cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R1OpFROBL._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 16, 2015, 08:05:23 PM
How is Berglund's cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R1OpFROBL._SX425_.jpg)
Haven't heard any of it (yet), but it's the only Sibelius cycle to employ a chamber orchestra to perform these symphonies. Definitely need to give it a listen.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 06:58:14 PM
Just as I suspected of the Collins' cycle, Peter. Glad I never pursued the cycle any further.
Once you have 25, 26 is calling to you ...
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 08:09:18 PM
Haven't heard any of it (yet), but it's the only Sibelius cycle to employ a chamber orchestra to perform these symphonies. Definitely need to give it a listen.
It is absolutely worth a listen but for me it's not a top choice. I have heard 5,6,7.
Quote from: Ken B on June 16, 2015, 08:09:59 PM
Once you have 25, 26 is calling to you ...
Hah!
Quote from: Ken B on June 16, 2015, 08:11:26 PM
It is absolutely worth a listen but for me it's not a top choice. I have heard 5,6,7.
I wouldn't think it's a top choice as I like my Sibelius with full-sized orchestra, but the chamber orchestra will make a nice contrast to what I'm accustomed to hearing in these symphonies, which is why I bought this Berglund cycle.
The Wood Nymph is phenomenal. I listened to it before noticing the opus, I really would've thought it was composed in a later period. Definitely to my ears one of Sibelius' best works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 07:12:34 PM
Good luck on listening to the Collins cycle. You'll probably need it. ;)
I have the Collins cycle on CD. I think that these performances were highly rated when there was limited competition. Having said that, as a cycle, I rather enjoy the performances but must listen to them again.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 16, 2015, 08:28:22 PM
The Wood Nymph is phenomenal. I listened to it before noticing the opus, I really would've thought it was composed in a later period. Definitely to my ears one of Sibelius' best works.
Great to hear, Greg! Yes,
The Wood-Nymph is an amazing work. The other works on that BIS recording you bought are quite nice as well, so please give them a listen as well. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on June 16, 2015, 08:40:28 PM
I have the Collins cycle on CD. I think that these performances were highly rated when there was limited competition. Having said that, as a cycle, I rather enjoy the performances but must listen to them again.
Given all the choices we have now for Sibelius symphony cycles, it's no wonder this one has slipped through the cracks for me for so long.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Time to regroup some past postings about works:
I really don't think we were in much danger of losing them.
Quote from: orfeo on June 17, 2015, 01:32:49 AM
I really don't think we were in much danger of losing them.
No, but for my own purposes, it's nice to have them together. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2015, 08:44:57 PM
Given all the choices we have now for Sibelius symphony cycles, it's no wonder this one has slipped through the cracks for me for so long.
And here I think of John as the go-to guy on Sibelius symphony cycles. Guess not ... >:D >:D
The Sibelius set even John won't listen to! 8)
:P
The recorded sound just has me a bit frightened. If this weren't the case, I'd be all over Collins' Sibelius like a monkey on a cupcake. :P
As mentioned on the general listening thread, I'm listening to the Violin Concerto for the very first time.
Totally. Blown. Away.
Speaking as a person who's not always fond of concertos because they can put showmanship over musicianship... this is one of the best damn concertos I've ever heard.
Quote from: orfeo on June 20, 2015, 05:31:20 AM
As mentioned on the general listening thread, I'm listening to the Violin Concerto for the very first time.
Totally. Blown. Away.
Speaking as a person who's not always fond of concertos because they can put showmanship over musicianship... this is one of the best damn concertos I've ever heard.
Certainly my thoughts on Sibelius' VC as well. Glad you enjoyed it. This was a work that took me some time to appreciate, but when it did, it was like an explosion in my mind. I need to go back and listen to that Kavakos/Vanska performance. Perhaps my judgement on the audio quality was a bit too harsh.
Kullervo, Op. 7
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7RJpYYefQ2g/UysvwBA8vII/AAAAAAAABEE/A3-P7d2yZjs/s1600/kallela-kullervo-kalevala.jpg)
Op. 7 Kullervo Symphony for soprano, baritone, male voice choir and orchestra. 1. Introduction, 2. Kullervo's Youth, 3. Kullervo and his Sister, 4. Kullervo goes to War, 5. Kullervo's death; words from Kalevala. Completed in 1892; first public performance 28th April 1892, Helsinki (soloists Emmy Achté and Abraham Ojanperä, Orchestra of the Helsinki Orchestra Society under Jean Sibelius). Arrangement for baritone and piano of part of the music (Kullervo's Lament) 1893, revised version 1917-18. Arrangement for baritone and orchestra of part of the music (Kullervo's Lament) 1957; first performance on 14th June 1957 in Helsinki (Kim Borg, the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra under Jussi Jalas).
Jean Sibelius started to think up ideas for Kullervo in Vienna in the spring of 1891, in his student flat at the corner of Wiedner Haupstrasse 36 and Waaggasse 1.
He was studying under Robert Fuchs and Carl Goldmark, but his teachers were not enthusiastic about his first attempts at orchestral works. Goldmark thought that Sibelius's first work was badly orchestrated. According to Fuchs the ideas he produced after this were also "barbaric and raw". This made the composer's Finnish blood boil. So, let's be barbarians!
Sibelius became absorbed in Kalevala and found in it exciting rhythms and fascinating variations on themes – materials for a new kind of music. Sibelius himself had mentioned "a new, Finnish type of song", referring to his setting of Runeberg's poem Drömmen. From now on, his style would include "that melodious, strangely melancholic monotony which is in all Finnish melodies".
On 3rd February 1891, on the first floor at Waaggasse, Sibelius was burning the sketches which he had written in a more German style and "laughing scornfully". He was starting to work on a symphony, and as late as the beginning of April he was writing a finale which "begins with a recitative which actually takes an upward curve into the last movement: variations on a theme handled in the Finnish manner, a free treatment". However, in April he heard Richter conduct Beethoven's ninth symphony and felt "so tiny, so tiny". The symphony came to nothing.
Sibelius was not discouraged. He started to write a new "symphony" - as he called the work to begin with and often even later. Sibelius took the subject matter from the Kullervo saga in Kalevala. In this a young man seduces a woman without knowing that she is his long-lost sister. Both end up committing suicide.
In a letter to Aino, Sibelius wrote that he had initially discarded at least 50 themes. He had obviously paid attention to the advice of his teacher, Goldmark, about the need to craft his themes carefully. Finally he came up with a theme that he was satisfied with. A prototype of the main theme of the first movement of Kullervo had taken shape. The theme can be found the letter Janne sent to Aino on 18th April 1891, even if it is still in F major.
"I am trying to find out what my symphony is all about. It is so different from everything that I have written so far," Sibelius wrote concerning his thematic sequence. Two days later Sibelius wrote to Aino that Fuchs had been enthusiastic about the new Kullervo theme.
Sibelius worked on the first movement for a long time. Apparently he continued to prepare it in the summer of 1891, first on his return from Vienna to Finland and then after he settled down to compose in Loviisa during the autumn. Right at the end of the year Sibelius acquainted himself with the art of Larin Paraske, a Finnish singer of runes, in Porvoo. Yrjö Hirn later recollected the meeting.
"I was travelling with Jean Sibelius from Loviisa via Porvoo to Hämeenlinna. At that time my travelling companion, who was five years my senior, was developing plans that would result in the symphonic poem Kullervo, which was completed and performed the following year. He was very eager to hear what Karelian runes sounded like when they were sung by a genuine Karelian singer, and I was of course glad to be able to witness this encounter between the new and the old. I dare not speculate what it meant for the compositions the master based on Kalevala, the fact that he could listen to Paraske just then. I just remember how he followed the song attentively and wrote down the melody and the rhythms."
In his old age, Sibelius told his son-in-law Jussi Snellman that he had been a good deal more sceptical.
"Kullervo had been composed in the summer and autumn of 1891. When it was completed I went with Hirn to Porvoo to see Paraske. There was not much snow on the ground but it was already very cold. At the time I had no idea what a celebrity was sitting in front of me. In her singing I mainly paid attention to how such a 'rune singer' uses Finnish: 'murehiaa-aa-aa', 'musta lintuu-uu-uu', in other words, especially the way they prolong and stress the last syllables of a word. To my ears the stress that Paraske used sounded very strange, and I had no idea that I was dealing with such a great master, since I did not find her such an extraordinary rune singer. In 'Kullervo' I had used a natural stressing of syllables. Later I followed Paraske's way in poems with the Kalevala metre, e.g. in 'Väinämöisen venematka' (Väinämöinen's Boat-ride)."
Sibelius's memory was faulty when he claimed that Kullervo had been completed before the meeting with Paraske. He returned to Loviisa for Christmas, continued to compose Kullervo and wrote down the theme for the second movement in a tender love letter that he sent to Aino on 29th December 1891.
From the end of January 1892 the composing continued in Helsinki, at the Kaivopuisto bathing establishment. At the beginning of March Sibelius decided that the choir should be a male choir. He took the view that the scene in the third movement depicting sexual intercourse - though shown by purely musical means – would embarrass female singers. "You, my dear, will understand," Sibelius wrote to his fiancée.
The rehearsals started at the beginning of April. Juho Ranta, who sang in the choir, recollected the events in 1933.
"There were not that many general rehearsals. All I can remember is that the 'official' language of the orchestra was German, most of the musicians being foreigners. Although my skills in German are very modest, I was proud when after hearing: 'Bitte, noch einmal vom Buchstab X', I could explain to my comrades, who only spoke their own language, that we should now repeat from some point or another."
The soloist Emmy Achté later wrote to her daughter that the orchestral rehearsals had been awkward.
"Yes, I will never forget the first rehearsal with the orchestra, when after my first recitative the members of the orchestra started laughing uncontrollably, splitting their sides."
28. The first public performance was on April 28th 1892 with Emmy Achté and Abraham Ojanperä as the soloists. The composer's hands were shaking and he looked pale, but the energy of the performance immediately gripped a section of the audience. "It was like a volcanic eruption," Axel Törnudd recollected. "Most of the listeners considered it complete chaos."
It was not until Robert Kajanus presented a wreath to Sibelius that the applause grew louder. This did not prevent the columnist Leonard Salin (under the pseudonym Boulot in Hufvudstadsbladet) from sneering that he had no idea at what point the orchestra stopped tuning up and the music began.
There was an element of language politics in all this. It was clear to the "Fennomans" that Sibelius had now joined their ranks. For their part, the "Svecomans" were disappointed in Sibelius, whose mother tongue was Swedish.
The Finnish-speaking composer and critic Oskar Merikanto wrote of his uncertainty about the work (in Päivälehti, 29th April). He conceded, however, that the composer had "taken a long step forward with this work and, at the same time, taken Finnish art towards a highly promising future." He continued: "The whole composition is, due to its Finnish content, the most impressive and powerful work ever to come from a Finnish pen."
The Swedish-speaking critic Karl Flodin praised the work with reservations: "Jean Sibelius has a tune of his own, it is a gift originating from great abilities, and with it he writes his own, our own music." According to Flodin Kullervo's modulations, rhythms and melodies had their origin in Finnish folk songs. Flodin also predicted that Kullervo would be the end of a road. "If Sibelius wanted to write a new symphonic poem, for instance a depiction of Lemminkäinen, he would have to find a completely new perspective in order not to repeat what he already has said in Kullervo."
Sibelius conducted his work only a few times. The last performances were in 1893, when the critics surprised him with a broadside of scathing criticism. Even Merikanto now considered the orchestral parts too long drawn out.
The composer was shocked and he never conducted the work again – nor did he let anyone else conduct the entire work during his lifetime. One reason that the work was not performed may have had to do with the score getting lost. But when Sibelius did get the score back he had already grown out of the style of the work. "Kullervo was a treasure house," he said in his old age, but he thought that the house had been emptied long ago.
Today it is possible to take a different view of the work. In the hands of first-class modern conductors, the clumsy aspects convey an exciting roughness. In the 1990s there was a veritable flood of Kullervo recordings, and at the beginning of the 21st century the work continues to be a popular item for Finnish orchestras to take abroad.
Kullervo is at the same time a masterpiece and a baggy monster of a work, bursting at the seams. It is the King Kong of orchestral composition. Its brutality and massive size command fear and respect, yet it is at heart a romantic work.
After the completion of Kullervo Sibelius could proceed in only one direction: towards greater concentration and a more consistent symphonic form. The critic Karl Flodin was right. Kullervo was not the start of a road; it was the end. Never again would Sibelius create anything as brazenly megalomaniac.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
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What does everyone think of the symphony Kullervo? I've loved it since I first heard it six years ago. The first performance I heard was Paavo Jarvi's with the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic on Virgin Classics. Still a killer performance in my view. Anyway, I think these first stabs at the symphonic genre (along with Lemminkainen Suite) show a brilliant musical mind trying to find his footing, but I think he was wholly successful. My current favorite Kullervo performances are Vanska/Lahti SO and Segerstam/Helsinki PO. What about you guys?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2015, 05:45:51 AM
I need to go back and listen to that Kavakos/Vanska performance. Perhaps my judgement on the audio quality was a bit too harsh.
Well, the audio quality is... interesting. I'm only listening through my computer speakers which are hardly the best, but it's quite a reverberant sound.
I don't know that that's the version I'm going to buy, mainly because of the coupling. I don't especially want Sibelius' first thoughts, he's one composer whose revision process I take seriously.
Now excuse me, I have to go read through the thread actually paying attention to people's concerto recommendations!
Quote from: orfeo on June 20, 2015, 06:15:45 AM
Well, the audio quality is... interesting. I'm only listening through my computer speakers which are hardly the best, but it's quite a reverberant sound.
I don't know that that's the version I'm going to buy, mainly because of the coupling. I don't especially want Sibelius' first thoughts, he's one composer whose revision process I take seriously.
Now excuse me, I have to go read through the thread actually paying attention to people's concerto recommendations!
I didn't much care for Sibelius' original version of the
Violin Concerto as I think his revision condensed it down to something more cohesive. A perfect integration of violin and orchestra as I've ever heard. My own recommendations for the VC are Kuusisto/Segerstam and Hahn/Salonen. These are my top choices.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2015, 06:19:04 AM
My own recommendations for the VC are Kuusisto/Segerstam and Hahn/Salonen. These are my top choices.
So I have just read!
The Hahn/Salonen interests me, I will have to sample, and to be honest will have to sample the Schoenberg it comes with to see if it's something I'd listen to.
Lin/Salonen also interests me, as the reviews for that one seem to be universally positive. Paired with Nielsen.
Quote from: orfeo on June 20, 2015, 06:59:12 AM
So I have just read!
The Hahn/Salonen interests me, I will have to sample, and to be honest will have to sample the Schoenberg it comes with to see if it's something I'd listen to.
Lin/Salonen also interests me, as the reviews for that one seem to be universally positive. Paired with Nielsen.
It's been years since I've heard that Lin/Salonen recording. Don't remember too much about it. The Nielsen coupling is a more logical one IMHO than the Schoenberg pairing on the Hahn/Salonen, but I didn't buy it for the coupling anyway.
If you look back in this thread, I think you'll find that once upon a time Lin/Salonen was one of your favourites.
I'm pretty sure it was you. Although it's after midnight so my memory could be playing tricks.
Quote from: orfeo on June 20, 2015, 07:28:10 AM
If you look back in this thread, I think you'll find that once upon a time Lin/Salonen was one of your favourites.
I'm pretty sure it was you. Although it's after midnight so my memory could be playing tricks.
If it was commercially issued it was John's favorite at some point.
It's a very curious thing for me to read all the praise for Sibelius' violin concerto.
It's the one piece by Sibelius that I just cannot stomach. There are other Sibelius pieces I don't care for much, but the violin concerto is the one I simply don't listen to any more.
I tried, many years ago when I was first learning to love Sibelius--he became one of my favorites for awhile, back when I had favorites. The chamber works, the symphonies, the opera, the theatre music, the press celebrations music. Just splendid stuff that I never lost a taste for even after I was thoroughly enamoured of things like Fluxus and electroacoustic and noise bands.
But the violin concerto? Seems very IMperfect to me and not even like it's by Sibelius, really.
I don't suppose it's possible to find out why, but it is curious. We're obviously hearing things quite quite differently. But why only the VC? We're obviously hearing the other things more or less the same way. Well, it's a puzzle, and likely to stay so. (Though I obviously want it to be solved, eh?)
Quote from: some guy on June 20, 2015, 02:05:02 PM(Though I obviously want it to be solved, eh?)
I would hope so. :-X
Quote from: Ken B on June 20, 2015, 01:45:33 PM
If it was commercially issued it was John's favorite at some point.
:P
Quote from: some guy on June 20, 2015, 02:05:02 PM
It's a very curious thing for me to read all the praise for Sibelius' violin concerto.
It's the one piece by Sibelius that I just cannot stomach. There are other Sibelius pieces I don't care for much, but the violin concerto is the one I simply don't listen to any more.
It took me awhile to learn to appreciate VC and even nowadays the final movement bores me at times. There was a time when I didn't care much about the middle movement but now it is certainly my favorite of not only of the concerto but also one of the most absolutely beautiful concerto movements ever written. It's a real lyrical beauty. Nevertheless, I can still see why you don't like this piece.
The Violin Concerto was one of those works I didn't like immediately and that took me a long time to finally warm to. Whenever I heard the Hahn/Salonen performance, I finally found myself connecting with it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 21, 2015, 07:37:16 PM
The Violin Concerto was one of those works I didn't like immediately and that took me a long time to finally warm to. Whenever I heard the Hahn/Salonen performance, I finally found myself connecting with it.
Quote from: Alberich on June 21, 2015, 08:49:42 AM
It took me awhile to learn to appreciate VC and even nowadays the final movement bores me at times. There was a time when I didn't care much about the middle movement but now it is certainly my favorite of not only of the concerto but also one of the most absolutely beautiful concerto movements ever written. It's a real lyrical beauty. Nevertheless, I can still see why you don't like this piece.
Interesting! I am more like Alberich. I wasn't quite aware of the VC for a long time, but when I heard the first movement I was enchanted. It took longer to appreciate the second movement and I still struggle a bit with the last one. Regardless, the eerie power of the first movement is hard to surpass in the VC repertoire. Fantastic!
Sibelius: Pelléas et Mélisande, Op. 46
Berliner Philharmoniker/Karajan
To my surprise I found that Karajan's rendition of Pelléas et Mélisande was excellent. I also realized how much I enjoy this work after having listened to other versions of it quite a bit over the last couple of months (mostly from the Sibelius Edition). Sibelius wrote some fantastic pieces for the theatre. They are clearly in a different realm compared to the symphonies, but they have such eloquent power of poetry. Karajan definitely brings out those qualities with his BP forces. The combination with Grieg's Peer Gynt is also appropriate as the shift between the two is almost seamless. Great stuff!
[asin] B00000E2LF[/asin]
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 01:30:27 PM
Interesting! I am more like Alberich. I wasn't quite aware of the VC for a long time, but when I heard the first movement I was enchanted. It took longer to appreciate the second movement and I still struggle a bit with the last one. Regardless, the eeire power of the first movement is hard to surpass in the VC repertoire. Fantastic!
It's difficult not to fall in love with that first movement, especially the introduction that seems to put the listener out in the middle of the wilderness to fend for themselves. Only we saved by a guiding light (aka the violin solo) that leads us through the wild.
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 01:37:15 PM
Sibelius: Pelléas et Mélisande, Op. 46
Berliner Philharmoniker/Karajan
To my surprise I found that Karajan's rendition of Pelléas et Mélisande was excellent. I also realized how much I enjoy this work after having listened to other versions of it quite a bit over the last couple of months (mostly from the Sibelius Edition). Sibelius wrote some fantastic pieces for the theatre. They are clearly in a different realm compared to the symphonies, but they have such eloquent power of poetry. Karajan definitely brings out those qualities with his BP forces. The combination with Grieg's Peer Gynt is also appropriate as the shift between the two is almost seamless. Great stuff!
[asin] B00000E2LF[/asin]
Yep, pretty much what I've been saying all along about Sibelius' theatre music. It's high-time listeners listen to these works.
The Tempest, Op. 109 alone is just as incredible as any symphony or tone poem he composed IMHO.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 22, 2015, 01:49:00 PM
Yep, pretty much what I've been saying all along about Sibelius' theatre music. It's high-time listeners listen to these works. The Tempest, Op. 109 alone is just as incredible as any symphony or tone poem he composed IMHO.
Now that's a sentiment I can relate to: I said nearly the same thing about the orchestrated songs waaaay back in my opening post to this thread:
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM
What would Sibelius be without his seven symphonies?
How about one of the greatest composers of songs?
So good, in fact, that when orchestrated his songs take on a dimension rivaling that of his better-known symphonic works. And the quality is uniformly high.
The battle of having said things first continues. Please watch the exciting continuation in episode 721!
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
The battle of having said things first continues. Please watch the exciting continuation in episode 721!
Err...is this tongue-in-cheek? I'm certainly not trying to one-up anyone. I just noticed something that echoed something I said once. And I thought it was cool.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 22, 2015, 02:40:51 PM
Err...is this tongue-in-cheek? I'm certainly not trying to one-up anyone. I just noticed something that echoed something I said once. And I thought it was cool.
;)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 22, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
Now that's a sentiment I can relate to: I said nearly the same thing about the orchestrated songs waaaay back in my opening post to this thread:
Well then I'm definitely in good company with my previous statements. :) Rock on, DD!
Sibelius thought of the day, Symphony No. 5, Original Version...
I've been listening quite extensively to the original version of the Symphony No. 5, performed by Lahti/Vanska. I'm fascinated by this music, especially the final movement and it's relationship with the final version. For me, the final movement in its original form is more expansive, almost in a dreamlike manner. The transitions between sections are broader and offer a more challenging portrayal of the direction the music is taking the listener, and there's a greater struggle within the melodies and harmonies. While allowing the beauty of the music more time to blossom, like that of the swan calls which last a bit longer, they are met with more jarring juxtaposition. For example when the Horns first introduce this theme, they are met with a strong trumpet call that seems to be in a different key, almost Ives-ian sounding.
The final 1919 version of the Symphony's finale sounds more precise and direct in its presentation, there's little mystery when compared to its original counterpart.
I mentioned dreamlike earlier when I described the original version of this movement, and for me it's a perfect description. Dreams can contain many emotions, colors and environments and can blend them all in an almost abstract display. That is how I sense Sibelius' initial incarnation of this symphony, and in particular the finale. I'm not sure I could, or even would claim one version to be better than the other, they are too different and deserve their own place. But I will say that the original version creates a more satisfying and stimulating rise to the final climax, and the final spaced chords being accompanied by string's tremolo and timpani both increasing in strength perfectly suits the character of this version.
Nightride and Sunrise
Had a similar reaction to my first listen to Nightride as I had with Wood Nymph, which was wow, why haven't I listened to this before? And why have I spent so much time with Finlandia when the true mastery of his symphonic poems lie elsewhere? ;)
The genesis of the 5th is quite complicated and it took him quite some time to complete. I'm happy to have the original in my collection, but it's the final version that gets my hat-tip. I think there were several sections in the original version that either a: went on too long for their own good and b: were unnecessary. I feel the same way about his Violin Concerto preferring the revised version. Now some works I prefer the original like The Origin Of Fire for example as I believe the longer introduction gives way to a grimmer soundscape and sets up the music that follows in a more organic way. But, it's amazing how differently we all feel about the music. I'm thankful for BIS for allowing fans of the composer the opportunity to hear these original thoughts.
P.S. Night Ride and Sunrise is top-shelf for sure. Glad you enjoyed it, Greg. 8)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2015, 08:05:09 PM
Sibelius thought of the day, Symphony No. 5, Original Version...
I've been listening quite extensively to the original version of the Symphony No. 5, performed by Lahti/Vanska. I'm fascinated by this music, especially the final movement and it's relationship with the final version. For me, the final movement in its original form is more expansive, almost in a dreamlike manner. The transitions between sections are broader and offer a more challenging portrayal of the direction the music is taking the listener, and there's a greater struggle within the melodies and harmonies. While allowing the beauty of the music more time to blossom, like that of the swan calls which last a bit longer, they are met with more jarring juxtaposition. For example when the Horns first introduce this theme, they are met with a strong trumpet call that seems to be in a different key, almost Ives-ian sounding.
The final 1919 version of the Symphony's finale sounds more precise and direct in its presentation, there's little mystery when compared to its original counterpart.
I mentioned dreamlike earlier when I described the original version of this movement, and for me it's a perfect description. Dreams can contain many emotions, colors and environments and can blend them all in an almost abstract display. That is how I sense Sibelius' initial incarnation of this symphony, and in particular the finale. I'm not sure I could, or even would claim one version to be better than the other, they are too different and deserve their own place.
But I will say that the original version creates a more satisfying and stimulating rise to the final climax, and the final spaced chords being accompanied by string's tremolo and timpani both increasing in strength perfectly suits the character of this version.
My sentiments exactly, especially the highlighted parts.
I've been having a small sample of some of my Violin Concerto contenders online.
This is looking pretty good to me right now.
[asin]B00077F94I[/asin]
Widely acclaimed performances, gave me some of the sense of pleasure I had with my first introduction with Kavakos/Vanska (including quite a similar pacing), and for me a more attractive coupling.
I specifically tried the opening to check that it worked for me. It did. Phew!
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
The battle of having said things first continues. Please watch the exciting continuation in episode 721!
(* chortle *)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2015, 08:05:09 PM
Sibelius thought of the day, Symphony No. 5, Original Version...
I've been listening quite extensively to the original version of the Symphony No. 5, performed by Lahti/Vanska. I'm fascinated by this music, especially the final movement and it's relationship with the final version. For me, the final movement in its original form is more expansive, almost in a dreamlike manner. The transitions between sections are broader and offer a more challenging portrayal of the direction the music is taking the listener, and there's a greater struggle within the melodies and harmonies. While allowing the beauty of the music more time to blossom, like that of the swan calls which last a bit longer, they are met with more jarring juxtaposition. For example when the Horns first introduce this theme, they are met with a strong trumpet call that seems to be in a different key, almost Ives-ian sounding.
The final 1919 version of the Symphony's finale sounds more precise and direct in its presentation, there's little mystery when compared to its original counterpart.
I mentioned dreamlike earlier when I described the original version of this movement, and for me it's a perfect description. Dreams can contain many emotions, colors and environments and can blend them all in an almost abstract display. That is how I sense Sibelius' initial incarnation of this symphony, and in particular the finale. I'm not sure I could, or even would claim one version to be better than the other, they are too different and deserve their own place. But I will say that the original version creates a more satisfying and stimulating rise to the final climax, and the final spaced chords being accompanied by string's tremolo and timpani both increasing in strength perfectly suits the character of this version.
Nightride and Sunrise
Had a similar reaction to my first listen to Nightride as I had with Wood Nymph, which was wow, why haven't I listened to this before? And why have I spent so much time with Finlandia when the true mastery of his symphonic poems lie elsewhere? ;)
A pleasure to read this post, friend.
@ MI, Wanderer and Karl...
Thank you for reading my thoughts, Gents. Hope you're all doing well. :)
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 02:39:24 AM
I've been having a small sample of some of my Violin Concerto contenders online.
This is looking pretty good to me right now.
[asin]B00077F94I[/asin]
Widely acclaimed performances, gave me some of the sense of pleasure I had with my first introduction with Kavakos/Vanska (including quite a similar pacing), and for me a more attractive coupling.
FWIW (I only listened to the samples on Amazon) . . . my impression in the
Nielsen is, the orchestra is unusually good, but the soloist curiously underachieving.
In other words, if you really want the
Nielsen (and you should) . . . seek out another, perhaps.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2015, 10:14:25 AM
FWIW (I only listened to the samples on Amazon) . . . my impression in the Nielsen is, the orchestra is unusually good, but the soloist curiously underachieving.
In other words, if you really want the Nielsen (and you should) . . . seek out another, perhaps.
Don't do this to me, dammit. It's a Penguin Rosette winner! And Gramphone Award winner, "One of the classic concerto recordings of the century".
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 02:24:08 PM
Don't do this to me, dammit. It's a Penguin Rosette winner!
Which really doesn't mean anything or does it? :-\ I actually listened to Lin's Sibelius VC a few nights ago and I found nothing objectionable about it, but I also didn't find it terribly individual either. Get the Hahn/Salonen, I beg you!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 02:26:12 PM
Which really doesn't mean anything or does it? :-\ I actually listened to Lin's Sibelius VC a few nights ago and I found nothing objectionable about it, but I also didn't find it terribly individual either. Get the Hahn/Salonen, I beg you!
+1I love Hahn's performance! Besides, the cover is frameable... 8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nAsQam8ML.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:32:53 PM
+1
I love Hahn's performance! Besides, the cover is frameable... 8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nAsQam8ML.jpg)
Hahn is certainly frame-worthy. ;) I don't think she'd like to meet me not unless she like people who drool. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 02:38:35 PM
Hahn is certainly frame-worthy. ;) I don't think she'd like to meet me not unless she like people who drool. ;D
Ha ha! She is indeed beautiful, but, more importantly, a fantastic artist! One thing that always has surprised me is the incredible variety of music she records, the different ensembles and the reach towards the less "popular". The compilations are also a bit unusual to say the least. Still, I always look forward to every new recording she is involved in!
I have to listen to her performance of Sibelius's VC soon..... 0:)
Hahn/Salonen didn't do much for me, sorry. It was the first one I sampled. A bit too cold or matter-of-fact or whatever. Which is in line with some of the reviews I'd read - people seem to admire the Schoenberg more often than the Sibelius. They don't dislike the Sibelius, but not everyone falls in love with it.
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 02:49:26 PM
Hahn/Salonen didn't do much for me, sorry. It was the first one I sampled. A bit too cold.
What!? ;)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oPaQvQurjgo/Tq2bgI6eCiI/AAAAAAAAxBo/-Q99wChnN6k/s1600/46HammerDaffyHead.png)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:44:08 PM
Ha ha! She is indeed beautiful, but, more importantly, a fantastic artist! One thing that always has surprised me is the incredible variety of music she records, the different ensembles and the reach towards the less "popular". The compilations are also a bit unusual to say the least. Still, I always look forward to every new recording she is involved in!
I have to listen to her performance of Sibelius's VC soon..... 0:)
She certainly is beautiful and a great musician. I think she nailed the essence of Sibelius' VC better than anyone.
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 02:49:26 PMHahn/Salonen didn't do much for me, sorry. It was the first one I sampled. A bit too cold or matter-of-fact or whatever. Which is in line with some of the reviews I'd read - people seem to admire the Schoenberg more often than the Sibelius. They don't dislike the Sibelius, but not everyone falls in love with it.
No need to be sorry. I certainly won't lose any sleep over the fact that it wasn't your cup of tea. ;) There are so many performances of this VC, that I'm sure you'll come across one that does something for you. Have you heard the Kuusisto/Segerstam on Ondine yet?
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 03:35:21 PM
She certainly is beautiful and a great musician. I think she nailed the essence of Sibelius' VC better than anyone.
No need to be sorry. I certainly won't lose any sleep over the fact that it wasn't your cup of tea. ;) There are so many performances of this VC, that I'm sure you'll come across one that does something for you. Have you heard the Kuusisto/Segerstam on Ondine yet?
Don't use "Hahn" and "nailed" in the same sentence. Unless you're boasting.
Quote from: Ken B on June 23, 2015, 03:39:18 PM
Don't use "Hahn" and "nailed" in the same sentence. Unless you're boasting.
:P
I just read Hahn is married and is expecting her first child sometime in the summer. Damn! There goes my chance with her! The gods are all against me!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!! :P
Homewrecker!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 03:42:58 PM
I just read Hahn is married and is expecting her first child sometime in the summer. Damn! There goes my chance with her! The gods are all against me!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!! :P
Yeah, you have to be satisfied with large framed posters of Sibelius (or was it Delius?) on your walls instead! ;)
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
Yeah, you have to be satisfied with large framed posters of Sibelius (or was it Delius?) on your walls instead! ;)
:P
Quote from: Moonfish on June 22, 2015, 02:32:21 PM
The battle of having said things first continues. Please watch the exciting continuation in episode 721!
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 22, 2015, 02:40:51 PM
Err...is this tongue-in-cheek? I'm certainly not trying to one-up anyone. I just noticed something that echoed something I said once. And I thought it was cool.
Oohhhhhhh...NOW I get it...(just been to the "Top 5 Favorite Ravel Works" thread ;D)...
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 23, 2015, 04:32:53 PM
Oohhhhhhh...NOW I get it...(just been to the "Top 5 Favorite Ravel Works" thread ;D)...
0:)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 23, 2015, 03:42:58 PM
I just read Hahn is married and is expecting her first child sometime in the summer. Damn! There goes my chance with her! The gods are all against me!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!! :P
Yeah, she married a former GMGer named hornteacher.
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Yeah, she married a former GMGer named hornteacher.
;D :D ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on June 23, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Yeah, she married a former GMGer named hornteacher.
I hope she likes Strauss. ;) ;D
(Hint for the ones that don't get the joke: R. Strauss' father was a horn player and Strauss himself wrote two concerti for the instrument.)
En Saga, Op. 9
(http://www.yenicikanlar.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Kalevala.jpg) (http://www.paganchildrensbooks.com/magic_carpet/pc/catalog/Kalevala_page.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OcYwIWys2Ak/T2c3VY47BbI/AAAAAAABxlk/akZHfu12jw8/s1600/Kalevala%2BTales%2Bof%2BMagic%2Band%2BAdventure-.jpg)
Op. 9 En Saga, symphonic poem for orchestra. First version 1892; first performance in Helsinki, 16th February 1893 (Orchestra of the Helsinki Orchestra Society under Jean Sibelius). Final version 1902; first performance in Helsinki, 3rd November 1902 (Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Robert Kajanus).
In the spring of 1892 Robert Kajanus reminded Sibelius that the massive forces needed to perform Kullervo would limit the possibilities of performing the work. He now hoped that the composer would write a small orchestral work which could be used more flexibly.
Sibelius did indeed start work on a new orchestral composition. In Vienna in 1891 he had already been planning an octet or a septet and later he worked on "Scène de Ballet no. 2". It is possible that the new orchestral work began to take shape from the material in these drafts. Sibelius was writing En Saga at Monola House near Lieksa, immediately after his wedding. Composition was interrupted in 1892, when he set out to collect traditional poems and songs, but was continued at the first family apartment in Helsinki in the autumn of 1892. He completed the work in December.
En Saga did not end up as a small work; in its original version it is a large-scale orchestral poem lasting over 20 minutes. The musicians of Kajanus's orchestra found the work as incomprehensible as Kullervo had been and some members of the orchestra were in favour of refusing it. This was unacceptable to Kajanus, and the composition was performed on 16th February 1893. Sibelius conducted En Saga himself, while Kajanus took care of the rest of the programme. The reception was quite different from that of Kullervo. Many people wondered what En Saga was really about. Sibelius never explained the programme of his work - if there was any. To him En Saga was "an expression of a state of mind":
"En Saga is psychologically one of my most profound works. I could almost say that the whole of my youth is contained within it. It is an expression of a state of mind. When I was writing En Saga I went through many things that were upsetting to me. In no other work have I revealed myself as completely as in En Saga. For this reason alone all interpretations of En Saga are, of course, completely foreign to my way of thinking."
The critic Karl Flodin found the work puzzling. "If only his musical intuition were a little less capricious," he complained. Oskar Merikanto suggested that Sibelius could cut out certain superfluous parts of the work. Sibelius did in fact do this in 1902.
En Saga is an introduction to Sibelius's way of dealing with symbolism. It is no coincidence that in a letter to Adolf Paul he mentions Böcklin's paintings in the same sentence as En Saga.
En Saga is also a Finnish work. The atmosphere of the original version brings to mind Kalevala. As late as 1921, in an interview with A. O. Väisänen, Sibelius himself associated the atmosphere of the work with Finland.
"In that work we are on familiar ground. How could one think of anything other than Finland while listening to it! I wrote the beginning of this work in Vienna and I continued it in Lieksa, at Monola, where we spent the late summer of 1892. [The Sibeliuses were in Lieksa from around 15th June to around 15th July] The fact is that the place where it was written does not affect the character of En Saga. I have never been as Finnish as I was in Vienna, Italy and Paris, and never as Parisian as I was in Pielisjärvi."
Thus Sibelius emphasised to Väisänen the Finnish character of En Saga. Several decades later he found the atmosphere of the composition to be closer to the ancient Icelandic poems of the Edda than to Kalevala. However, the remark from 1921 may be closer to Sibelius's thoughts during the actual composition of En Saga.
To the annoyance of Robert Kajanus and Aino Sibelius, Sibelius decided to revise the work in 1902. "I like and have always liked the first version. Papa removed some violent passages from it. Now En Saga is more civilised, more polished," Aino Sibelius complained in her old age. In practice "civilisation" showed itself as more thorough integration of the material, fewer tempo changes and modulations and improved instrumentation. Sibelius also removed the extensive pastoral middle section. This had contained his most modern musical language so far, including seventh inversions of ninths, proceeding in parallel motion.
Kajanus conducted the new version of En Saga in Helsinki on 2nd November 1902. Merikanto was still not enthusiastic:
"It is also an undeniable fact that the composition as a whole makes a melancholy, unhealthy impression despite its improvements. But this is after all a 'saga', a fiction which should not be taken as reality. Consequently, it is good to see the extent to which Sibelius has developed in his later works - mainly in his two symphonies. He has become healthy and found a consistent style."
In Uusi Suometar, Evert Katila was more sympathetic. "What is new in the later form of the work is its greater concentration, several powerful crescendos and a more excellent use of the horns," was his analysis.
Sibelius went to Berlin to conduct the new version with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in the same year, 1902. The concert was a great success, and most of the critics praised the work. I was called [to take a bow] five (?) times. The main thing is that I can conduct a world-class orchestra. And I can do it well! That's what everybody said!" Sibelius wrote to Aino on 16th November.
Tonally speaking, En Saga is an adventurous work; it begins in A minor and ends in E flat minor. Robert Layton has pointed out that even at this early stage in Sibelius's career En Saga is masterly in its handling of the orchestra. Sibelius shows himself to be a genuine orchestral composer in the manner of Berlioz. These conceptions could not originate at the piano or by orchestrating a piano version. In its 1902 version
En Saga quickly charmed the rest of the world, and Arturo Toscanini and Henry Wood added it to their repertoires. Even today, En Saga is one of Sibelius's most popular and most frequently recorded orchestral works.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does everyone think of En Saga, Op. 9? For me, it's a striking work and full of a wonderful atmosphere. I really love the original version of the work. Has anyone else here heard the original? I love both versions, though, but I find both versions to sound completely different, which is the norm for Sibelius as when he revised a work, he really gave the it 'structural cleansing' for lack of a better phrase. Any favorite performances? I think Vanska/Lahti SO is the best one I've heard, although I've heard plenty of good performances of it, but Vanska gets top markings here.
No En Saga fans?!?!? Shame on all of you! ;) ;D
I'm sorry, but our inboxes all don't immediately tremble the second you've written something...
This is one of the few works where I have more than one performance - I've got both Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Vanska/Lahti So.
And it's also one of the even fewer times where I have a strong preference. I much prefer Ashkenazy. The piece feels more dynamic and also more structurally coherent. I feel I can follow where the piece is going much better.
Quote from: orfeo on June 30, 2015, 02:01:08 AM
I'm sorry, but our inboxes all don't immediately tremble the second you've written something...
This is one of the few works where I have more than one performance - I've got both Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Vanska/Lahti So.
And it's also one of the even fewer times where I have a strong preference. I much prefer Ashkenazy. The piece feels more dynamic and also more structurally coherent. I feel I can follow where the piece is going much better.
Interesting!
Quote from: orfeo on June 30, 2015, 02:01:08 AM
I'm sorry, but our inboxes all don't immediately tremble the second you've written something...
???
Quote from: orfeo on June 30, 2015, 02:01:08 AMThis is one of the few works where I have more than one performance - I've got both Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Vanska/Lahti SO.
And it's also one of the even fewer times where I have a strong preference. I much prefer Ashkenazy. The piece feels more dynamic and also more structurally coherent. I feel I can follow where the piece is going much better.
I feel the exact opposite as I don't think Ashkenazy brings much to the table interpretatively. Every detail and nuance is handled to perfection under Vanska. Also, I prefer BIS's state-of-the-art sound to Decca's (not that theirs is anything to scoff at).
Quote from: Moonfish on June 23, 2015, 02:32:53 PM
+1
I love Hahn's performance!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nAsQam8ML.jpg)
+2 Really love this performance as well. :)
My opinion of En Saga is probably the same Verdi said about Tristan: "I stand in awe and terror before it." The original version probably terrifies me even more. It is fitting that Sibelius said that in no other work of his had he so throughly revealed himself.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2015, 07:35:56 AM
En Saga, Op. 9 Any favorite performances?
Timings of the
En Saga versions I own, favorites in bold (those three have a notable bass drum presence):
Stein/Suisse Romande 16:15
Maazel/Pittsburgh 17:06
Schmidt/RPO 17:51
Vänskä/Lahti 18:03
Karajan/Berlin Phil 18:15
Szell/Cleveland 18:35
Davis/LSO 18:48
Berglund/Bournemouth 18:54
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia 19:27
Franck/Swedish RSO 19:46
Sanderling/Berlin SO 19:54
Furtwängler/Berlin Phil 20:29
Quote from: orfeo on June 30, 2015, 02:01:08 AM
This is one of the few works where I have more than one performance - I've got both Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Vanska/Lahti...I much prefer Ashkenazy.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 30, 2015, 04:26:30 AM
I feel the exact opposite as I don't think Ashkenazy brings much to the table interpretatively.
For some reason, Ashkenazy gave the bass drummer the day off. The climactic moments have literally no punch.
Sarge
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 03, 2015, 09:57:08 AM
+2 Really love this performance as well. :)
Ray! You're back! Good to see you again!
Surusoitto (Funeral Music) for organ op. 111b (1931)
Surusoitto for organ op. 111b (1931) was written for the funeral of Sibelius's dear friend and fellow artist from the Symposium years, Akseli Gallen-Kallela. It was to be Sibelius's last instrumental work. Since Sibelius only had only a couple of days to write the music, he was on the verge of canceling the commission. However, as the invitation cards had already been printed, he agreed to keep his promise. This was fortunate, since today it seems that we possess just this one piece which gives us a a clue as to what the musical expression of the eighth symphony might have been like.
Surusoitto (Funeral Music) is a captivating and exciting work, like something that has come directly from a lunar landscape. It is unlike anything else that Sibelius ever wrote. Unprepared, unresolved dissonances, strange chord combinations, open fifths and overlapping fourths paint an ascetic and pitiless inner landscape. The effect is slightly alleviated by a melody with a sparse accompaniment; this is introduced before the repeat of the opening section, and before the concluding chords, whose structure is based on fourths. It seems that Sibelius could, after all, renew himself and find an expressive mode that today seems more modern than ever.
Aino Sibelius told Joonas Kokkonen after he asked about the origins of the work, that it and the Eight Symphony might have something to do with each other
(from Sibelius.fi)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yKF5kGj04m0
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 29, 2015, 07:35:56 AM
Any favorite performances? I think Vanska/Lahti SO is the best one I've heard, although I've heard plenty of good performances of it, but Vanska gets top markings here.
In comparison to you guys I do not nearly qualify as a Sibelian. Still,
En Saga has been a favorite for quite a while.
I do think Vänska's reading is pretty impressive, but this trumps it IMO:
[asin]B00004T00Y[/asin]
I bought on recommendation by
Dancing Divertimentian, I believe...
Q
Nice to have you visit, Que :)
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
Nice to have you visit, Que :)
Yeah, it's kind of strange to see Que on the Sibelius thread. :)
Quote from: Que on July 05, 2015, 04:11:48 AM
I bought on recommendation by Dancing Divertimentian, I believe...
I remember discussing other Ondine recordings with you in the past Que but I actually haven't heard this one.
The fact you rate it so highly though definitely has me wanting to check it out! :)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 05, 2015, 08:06:32 AM
I remember discussing other Ondine recordings with you in the past Que but I actually haven't heard this one.
Then I neglected to mention someone else, but I forgot who! ???
Anyway, no matter, the Franck is really nice. :)
Q
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2015, 12:21:10 AM
Surusoitto (Funeral Music) for organ op. 111b (1931)
So, how many Sibelians here have heard this work before? I myself came across it only yesterday. What do you think of it?
Quote from: Que on July 05, 2015, 08:17:41 AM
Then I neglected to mention someone else, but I forgot who! ???
Anyway, no matter, the Franck is really nice. :)
Q
Sarge perhaps?
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
So, how many Sibelians here have heard this work before? I myself came across it only yesterday. What do you think of it?
Never! Not sure I even knew of it before. Does this
Op.111b designation indicate a variant scoring?
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 05, 2015, 09:17:27 PM
Sarge perhaps?
Could be me. Franck's En Saga has long been one of my favorite versions (and the coupled Lemminkäinen still is the desert island choice). Where this En Saga lets me down
slightly is the bass drum. Compared to my three favorites, it's recessed and mushy (like distant thunder...which, come to think of it, might be appropriate). It's a minor quibble though; it's still much better than most of the competition.
Sarge
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
So, how many Sibelians here have heard this work before? I myself came across it only yesterday. What do you think of it?
I have certainly come across it before, considering it was one of the last/the very last new composition he ever finished. And it's not half bad.
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
So, how many Sibelians here have heard this work before? I myself came across it only yesterday. What do you think of it?
Not much, but I don't care much about solo organ works anyway.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 06, 2015, 03:06:06 AM
Does this Op.111b designation indicate a variant scoring?
No, there are two organ pieces in the opus, op.111a is called "Intrada", and op.111b is "Surusoitto".
Quote from: orfeo on July 07, 2015, 06:09:22 AM
No, there are two organ pieces in the opus, op.111a is called "Intrada", and op.111b is "Surusoitto".
Thanks!
.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91581ktvD4L._SL1500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZAq112jQL._SL1417_.jpg)
More information:
"How were Sibelius' symphonies performed during the composer's lifetime? This 11CD set aims to answer the question by presenting some of the most legendary Sibelius recordings from the vaults of Decca's Mono & early Stereo Catalogue. Featuring Jansen's Karelia Suite, the Violin Concerto in D minor with Ricci & Fjeldstad, Eduard van Beinum's Tapiola and Finlandia,Songs with Birgit Nilsson and Bertil Bokstedt, as well as Anthony Collins' complete Sibelius cycle – one of the first collections of the symphonies performed by one orchestra and conductor.
CDs 1–4 (NEWLY REMASTERED)
Symphonies 1–7 • Karelia Overture • Pohjola's Daughter Pelléas et Mélisande — Suite nos.2 & 6–9 Night Ride and Sunrise
London Symphony Orchestra / Anthony Collins
CD 5
Lemminkäinen Suite • Karelia Suite
Danish State Radio Symphony Orchestra / Thomas Jensen
CD 6
String Quartet, op.56 "Voces intimae" • Symphony No.5 • Finlandia
Griller Quartet
Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra / Erik Tuxen
CD 7
En saga* • Tapiola* • Finlandia*
Valse triste* • Violin Concerto
London Philharmonic Orchestra / Jan Damen
Concertgebouw Orchestra* / Van Beinum
CD 8
Finlandia • Valse triste • The Swan of Tuonela • Scènes historiques I — Festivo • Karelia Suite • Tapiola
Berliner Philharmoniker / Hans Rosbaud
CD 9
Violin Concerto* • Songs • Ruggiero Ricci* • Kirsten Flagstad
London Symphony Orchestra / Øivin Fjeldstad
CD 10
Symphony No.2* • Songs+
London Symphony Orchestra/Pierre Monteux*
Birgit Nilsson
Wiener Opernorchester/Bertil Bokstedt+
CD 11
Symphony No.5* • Karelia Suite*
King Christian II Suite — Élégie et Musette**º
Pelléas et Mélisande — Intermezzo**º
Valse triste+º • Finlandia**º
London Symphony Orchestra/Sir Alexander Gibson*
London Proms Symphony Orchestra / Sir Charles Mackerras** ºFirst International Decca CD Release"
from http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Sibelius-Great-Performances/4OBO04G6000 (http://umusicdirect.com/classics/*/Box-Sets/Sibelius-Great-Performances/4OBO04G6000)
Jean made the cover of Gramophone's August 2015 issue...
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 19, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
Jean made the cover of Gramophone's August 2015 issue...
Yay!!!!!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4e/74/9d/4e749d26c6b00443d8436f290a902455.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on July 19, 2015, 06:18:36 PM
Yay!!!!!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4e/74/9d/4e749d26c6b00443d8436f290a902455.jpg)
This must be the sign, Sibelius has finally made it to the big time! :o
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 19, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
Jean made the cover of Gramophone's August 2015 issue...
Sweet! I still need to pick up the February 2015 issue of BBC Music Magazine with you know who on the front cover.
The Sibelius/Gramophone is a good article, a strong focus on several of his works, mainly L.Legends, Kullervo and Tapiola.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 20, 2015, 02:30:22 AM
The Sibelius/Gramophone is a good article, a strong focus on several of his works, mainly L.Legends, Kullervo and Tapiola.
Excellent! (and curious that you abbreviate
Lemminkäinen, the actual title of the piece, and not 'Legends' ;) ,
Greg).
Meanwhile, I should take a look at dad's copy of the abbreviated single volume version of Erik Tawaststjerna's five volume biography by Erik T. Tawaststjerna (the former's son) (in Finnish only, but the original is available in English too if I recall correctly).
(http://www.adlibris.com/images/15374594/sibelius.jpg)
Quote from: North Star on July 20, 2015, 03:00:23 AM
Excellent! (and curious that you abbreviate Lemminkäinen, the actual title of the piece, and not 'Legends' ;) , Greg).
Has nothing to do with being lazy. ::)
;D
Decca is dusting off their WP/Maazel recordings with the bonus of a remastering. I wonder how these will compare with the original WP set?
Sibelius: Symphonies WP/Maazel (remastered/ 4 cds + bluray) - Oct 2, 2015
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Sieben-Sinfonien-Blu-Ray-Audio/dp/B011WEVXZ8 (http://www.amazon.de/Die-Sieben-Sinfonien-Blu-Ray-Audio/dp/B011WEVXZ8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61H%2BLMVYxhL.jpg)
Quote from: Moonfish on July 24, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
Decca is dusting off their WP/Maazel recordings with the bonus of a remastering. I wonder how these will compare with the original WP set?
Sibelius: Symphonies WP/Maazel (remastered/ 4 cds + bluray) - Oct 2, 2015
Most importantly, it has the Tapiola unlike the previous box set that I own.
On the subject of the original En Saga, I see Radio 3 (UK) are broadcasting a performance of this at 3.04am (UK time) 28 July. It will be available after this to stream from the BBC Radio 3 website for a week or two.
I guess no-one is ever going to make a write-up about Pohjola's daughter...
Quote from: Alberich on July 25, 2015, 06:08:02 AM
I guess no-one is ever going to make a write-up about Pohjola's daughter...
Why don't you make one? Problem solved. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 25, 2015, 06:14:54 AM
Why don't you make one? Problem solved. :)
I'm not confident enough to do that. :P
Quote from: Alberich on July 25, 2015, 06:25:58 AM
I'm not confident enough to do that. :P
It's easy all you do is a copy-and-paste an article about the work and then tell us your opinion of the work and tell us your favorite performances. If you want to add some related artwork, that's completely up to you. Have you seen the way I've done my posts about particular works?
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 25, 2015, 06:28:00 AM
It's easy all you do is a copy-and-paste an article about the work and then tell us your opinion of the work and tell us your favorite performances. If you want to add some related artwork, that's completely up to you. Have you seen the way I've done my posts about particular works?
Yes, I know quite well how to do it. What I meant was that I'm not confident enough to be in the "spotlight" like that.
Quote from: Alberich on July 25, 2015, 06:30:46 AM
Yes, I know quite well how to do it. What I meant was that I'm not confident enough to be in the "spotlight" like that.
Every post you make is in the spotlight.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 25, 2015, 06:32:10 AM
Every post you make is in the spotlight.
Um, no. A long post with a bold heading and pictures is in the spotlight.
Quote from: Moonfish on July 24, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
Decca is dusting off their WP/Maazel recordings with the bonus of a remastering. I wonder how these will compare with the original WP set?
Sibelius: Symphonies WP/Maazel (remastered/ 4 cds + bluray) - Oct 2, 2015
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Sieben-Sinfonien-Blu-Ray-Audio/dp/B011WEVXZ8 (http://www.amazon.de/Die-Sieben-Sinfonien-Blu-Ray-Audio/dp/B011WEVXZ8)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61H%2BLMVYxhL.jpg)
I'm curious about this set too, Peter. I wonder if the audio quality really has been improved? :-\
Wow, Lenny takes the finale of the 4th waaaayyyy slow. And I like it.
[asin]B00UOFIUDK[/asin]
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 25, 2015, 06:41:27 PM
Wow, Lenny takes the finale of the 4th waaaayyyy slow. And I like it.
[asin]B00UOFIUDK[/asin]
8)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 25, 2015, 06:41:27 PM
Wow, Lenny takes the finale of the 4th waaaayyyy slow. And I like it.
[asin]B00UOFIUDK[/asin]
Even when he makes apparently curious choices, he generally makes it work. The man was a marvel.
Bernstein certainly had a special affinity for Sibelius but he was equally at home in Nielsen, which doesn't always happen when a conductor takes up both composers.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 27, 2015, 03:25:26 AM
Even when he makes apparently curious choices, he generally makes it work. The man was a marvel.
Dammit, I might need to get this. This will be my fourth complete set of these symphonies. The samples just sounds so good. I agree Lennie was a real marvel. Also impressive is his attention to detail. If you follow along with the score all the indicators are followed impressively though it still is a very distinctive interpretation. His ideas were very thorough and very clearly felt.
Now, I am listening to this set. Sibelius is such a freaking great composer. There aren't many composers that can be listened to hours on end but the symphonies of Sibelius (and especially this Bernstein set) are proof of what constitutes great symphonists. There is so much depth of feeling and individuality here. It is breathtakingly beautiful rendition and I am proud to own another damn set of the symphonies. This is where my thoughts lie.
Yep, Bernstein certainly had a way with Sibelius. Karl or anyone else who owned the older set and now own the newer set, is there a difference in audio quality? I know this new set is remastered, but does it sound better than the older issued box?
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 29, 2015, 06:39:29 PM
Yep, Bernstein certainly had a way with Sibelius. Karl or anyone else who owned the older set and now own the newer set, is there a difference in audio quality? I know this new set is remastered, but does it sound better than the older issued box?
I believe there are two versions of Bernstein Sibelius symphonies (Sony/NYPhil and DG). This is a remastered version of the Sony/NYPhil which to me has more youthful vigor and sounds superior to the original set.
I think if you take a listen to this, you'll see it surpasses the original set in sound quality.
http://rippletunes.com/album/Jean-Sibelius-Leonard-Bernstein-Max-Bruch-Edvard-Grieg/Bernstein-Sibelius-Remastered/993558650/t0
Quote from: relm1 on July 29, 2015, 07:59:15 PM
I believe there are two versions of Bernstein Sibelius symphonies (Sony/NYPhil and DG). This is a remastered version of the Sony/NYPhil which to me has more youthful vigor and sounds superior to the original set.
I think if you take a listen to this, you'll see it surpasses the original set in sound quality.
http://rippletunes.com/album/Jean-Sibelius-Leonard-Bernstein-Max-Bruch-Edvard-Grieg/Bernstein-Sibelius-Remastered/993558650/t0
Cool, thanks. I'll check this site out.
This new set from BIS of the complete symphonies is a winner.
http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2076
Okko Kamu is such a dynamic, sensitive, and lyrical conductor and Lahti plays such distinction and authority.
Wasn't sure whether to go for Lennie, Decca's 'Great Interpreters' or DGG Sibelius Edition but opted for this one in the end:
[asin]B012PMZM4Y[/asin]
Updated
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6k_ZsZ9TH5k/VglxdEp4auI/AAAAAAAAIq0/jxkVnJOnAW8/s1600/SIBELIUS_Cycles_RATTLE_Berlin_complete_Discography_jens-f-laurson.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zHWLGFr-U-g/VglxdI_cO9I/AAAAAAAAIq4/6MyEVk031bc/s1600/SIBELIUS_Cycles_KAMU_Lahti_complete_Discography_jens-f-laurson.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fEBOam6kHQI/Vgl38uTlZxI/AAAAAAAAIrQ/NldD_u-FhP4/s1600/SIBELIUS_Cycles_INKINEN_New-Zealand_complete_Discography_jens-f-laurson.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UhfySqHqfwU/Vglxc9C41mI/AAAAAAAAIqw/Lw8FywEje6I/s1600/SIBELIUS_Cycles_INKINEN_complete_Discography_jens-f-laurson.jpg)
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: vandermolen on September 21, 2015, 12:29:39 PM
Wasn't sure whether to go for Lennie, Decca's 'Great Interpreters' or DGG Sibelius Edition but opted for this one in the end:
[asin]B012PMZM4Y[/asin]
Just received this and thoroughly enjoying Kajanus's recording of Symphony 1. One gets a real sense of being in direct contact with the composer himself through these riveting and gripping historic performances (recorded between 1928 and 1945).
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2015, 01:24:26 PM
Just bought:
(http://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/500/324702.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91S-ItWNCPL._SL1500_.jpg)
I now own 29 cycles of Sibelius' symphonies. 8)
I do not think that I have heard a better performance of Symphony 3 than the one from Kajanus and the LSO. Of more modern versions I liked the version conducted by Simon Rattle on EMI.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 07, 2015, 12:29:14 AM
I do not think that I have heard a better performance of Symphony 3 than the one from Kajanus and the LSO. Of more modern versions I liked the version conducted by Simon Rattle on EMI.
The problem I have with historical performances is the antique sound that comes along with them. Sure, the performance may be great, but Sibelius needs much better dynamics and a clean recorded sound in order for his music to really take on his highly detailed sound-world. For me, Vanska remains the benchmark in terms of interpretation and audio quality with Segerstam (w/ Helsinki PO) coming in a distant second.
Anybody heard the new Storgards cycle? 7 minutes into the Seventh, and I would say this is shaping up to be a very very good performance.
Quote from: Brian on October 07, 2015, 06:44:56 AM
Anybody heard the new Storgards cycle? 7 minutes into the Seventh, and I would say this is shaping up to be a very very good performance.
I recall liking it very much, but it's over a year since I have heard it.
I'm not a big fan of Sibelius and I find his symphonies bland, but recently I have been into the last movement of the fifth Symphony. Is it the best movement of all symphonies by Sibelius?
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 09:45:20 AM
I'm not a big fan of Sibelius and I find his symphonies bland, but recently I have been into the last movement of the fifth Symphony. Is it the best movement of all symphonies by Sibelius?
It is a wonderful movement but just because it's the only one you have managed to like so far doesn't mean it's 'the best'. Sibelius' symphony cycle is one of the most consistent ones (and consistently great) ever written.
Quote from: North Star on October 07, 2015, 09:57:13 AM
It is a wonderful movement but just because it's the only one you have managed to like so far doesn't mean it's 'the best'. Sibelius' symphony cycle is one of the most consistent ones (and consistently great) ever written.
+1, and one of the
furthest from bland, imho.
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 07, 2015, 09:58:16 AM
+1, and one of the furthest from bland, imho.
By bland I mean I tend to get "bored" when I listen to Sibelius' symphonies. A lot of the time the music has very little in it, perhaps just one flute playing a mediocre melody. Sibelius also uses "rigid" rhythmic structures that stay the same for long. For these reasons I don't find much counterpoint in Sibelius or structural complexity for that matter except for the most complex parts which are not that complex compared to some other composers. I even feel Sibelius was a cunning conman.
In my opinion Sibelius is at his best with "theatre" music. The pathos of the symphonies is replaced by colourful moody orchestration and the lack of complexity doesn't hinder listening enjoyment because theatre music is "supposed" to be simple.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
By bland I mean I tend to get "bored" when I listen to Sibelius' symphonies. A lot of the time the music has very little in it, perhaps just one flute playing a mediocre melody. Sibelius also uses "rigid" rhythmic structures that stay the same for long. For these reasons I don't find much counterpoint in Sibelius or structural complexity for that matter except for the most complex parts which are not that complex compared to some other composers. I even feel Sibelius was a cunning conman.
"Conman"? ::) Try clearing out your ear canals, 71.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 10:17:15 AMSibelius also uses "rigid" rhythmic structures that stay the same for long. For these reasons I don't find much counterpoint in Sibelius
These things are actually frequently true. There's not a lot of counterpoint in the traditional sense of fugues or rigorous combination/contrasting of themes (although you can find a lot of themes getting combined in novel ways in the first movement of No. 2, and No. 5 starts with one of the most thorough developments of a motto theme in symphonic history). Sibelius simply builds his structures in a different way from other composers. No. 5's first movement, for example, follows no model which you could find in any textbook or any past composition whatsoever, unless you were to think of it as 60+ variations on the opening horn tune. In some of the symphonies, the development is very subtle - for instance, the "theme" which is elaborated by, and woven through, No. 7 is only two notes long! (Hint: compare the first two notes the flute plays, with the first two notes the trombone plays, with the violins' last four chords.)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 09:45:20 AM
I'm not a big fan of Sibelius and I find his symphonies bland, but recently I have been into the last movement of the fifth Symphony. Is it the best movement of all symphonies by Sibelius?
No. One movement seventh.
You find Sibelius bland but as I recall you like
Elgar? We must never touch, it might destroy the universe!
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 09:45:20 AMIs it the best movement of all symphonies by Sibelius?
Best?...I don't know, but it's my favorite Sibelius movement.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 07, 2015, 01:57:48 PM
Best?...I don't know, but it's my favorite Sibelius movement.
Sarge
(Mine too!)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 09:45:20 AMI'm not a big fan of Sibelius and I find his symphonies bland...
I believe you've stated your opinion on Sibelius before. We all understand you don't care for his music. So my question to you is this: why do you continue to post on a composer's thread that you don't care for? Don't you have something better to do? Seems quite counterproductive to me. I've posted on composers' threads I didn't care for previously and came under heavy fire, so think of this as seeing the errors of my own way and calling you out for the same thing I shouldn't have been doing in the first place.
Quote from: North Star on October 07, 2015, 09:57:13 AM
It is a wonderful movement but just because it's the only one you have managed to like so far doesn't mean it's 'the best'. Sibelius' symphony cycle is one of the most consistent ones (and consistently great) ever written.
+1
Sibelius' symphonies are works of a genius and he was one no question about it. He is, hands down, my favorite symphonist and this stems from the fact that he treated his material in the most organic way imaginable. No other composer was writing music like this and his seven symphonies represent only a fragment of his accomplishments. The tone poems, works for voice/orchestra, incidental music, that magnificent
Violin Concerto, etc. are, IMHO, huge contributions to classical music.
*Special note: I'm merely only reiterating some points that you and all of my other Sibelian brothers/sisters already know. ;) :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PM
I believe you've stated your opinion on Sibelius before. We all understand you don't care for his music. So my question to you is this: why do you continue to post on a composer's thread that you don't care for? Don't you have something better to do? Seems quite counterproductive to me. I've posted on composers' threads I didn't care for previously and came under heavy fire, so think of this as seeing the errors of my own way and calling you out for the same thing I shouldn't have been doing in the first place.
Well, he did say he enjoys Sibelius's theatre music, didn't he?
Quote from: Alberich on October 08, 2015, 12:11:32 AM
Well, he did say he enjoys Sibelius's theatre music, didn't he?
I do not recall what he liked of Sibelius' oeuvre just that the composer is nowhere near one of his favorites and not even high on his list. So with that in mind, I have to ask: why is he here on this thread? Surely, not you or I could change his mind or convince him to re-listen? He's probably been listening to Sibelius off and on for years.
Well, there was a time when I thought I could never appreciate any classical music whatsoever. And look at me now :D Maybe there is still hope for 71...
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2015, 03:28:49 AM
I do not recall what he liked of Sibelius' oeuvre just that the composer is nowhere near one of his favorites and not even high on his list. So with that in mind, I have to ask: why is he here on this thread? Surely, not you or I could change his mind or convince him to re-listen? He's probably been listening to Sibelius off and on for years.
Well, I don't think he was attacking Sibelius. I think he was asking for help figuring out why we like Sibelius, and what a good place/inroad to start appreciating Sibelius is. That is how I tried to answer him, anyway. We've had some of our most productive discussions in this thread when people have confessed to not understanding a work and others have offered to help (Elgarian, me, several people named Don and Dave, Karl, Sarge, Renfield, trung, all the gang, not all of them still here).
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
The pathos of the symphonies is . . .
. . . an absurd simplification. Be fair: you would be impatient with anyone characterizing
Elgar's symphonies -- only two of them, compared to
Sibelius' seven -- by a single, trending-negative qualifier. "Too pompous," I think is a frequent canard . . . .
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
By bland I mean I tend to get "bored" when I listen to Sibelius' symphonies. A lot of the time the music has very little in it, perhaps just one flute playing a mediocre melody. Sibelius also uses "rigid" rhythmic structures that stay the same for long. For these reasons I don't find much counterpoint in Sibelius or structural complexity for that matter except for the most complex parts which are not that complex compared to some other composers.
See, I find this a bit mystifying. Because it's the structural ingenuity that draws me in the first place.
Rigid rhythmic structures? I listened to the 3rd symphony last week, and was reminded yet again that the first movement is one of my favourite things by anyone, ever, and a huge part of the reason for that is the amazing way the music starts and stops. To me, Sibelius has more control of tempo than almost any other composer, to the extent that he can create a sense of multiple tempos operating at the same time, with different parts of the music moving at different speeds.
To take another example, the first movement of the 2nd symphony impresses me because of the way the main theme sounds like an introduction. That's not an easy trick at all, to make you believe that there's an introduction, and then you start thinking "when is the main material going to arrive?" and then eventually at some point your brain switches and realises there was no introduction at all, and that he started with a fragmented version of the theme before integrating it (the opposite of what most composers had done, although Beethoven in the Eroica finale did something similar). It's an exercise in presenting the counterpoint lines separately first!
I also really don't understand how the number of instruments playing is relevant. It's actually harder to achieve your musical and structural goals with an economy of means, rather than throwing a whole booming orchestra around. Sibelius is to my mind perhaps the greatest orchestrator, and that's precisely because he uses his colours very carefully and delicately.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2015, 04:40:35 AM
. . . an absurd simplification. Be fair: you would be impatient with anyone characterizing Elgar's symphonies -- only two of them, compared to Sibelius' seven -- by a single, trending-negative qualifier. "Too pompous," I think is a frequent canard . . . .
I think "canard" is the wrong word to describe a term used as euphemism for something much worse.
;)
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PM
I believe you've stated your opinion on Sibelius before.
Possibly, but not recently.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PMWe all understand you don't care for his music.
I wouldn't say I don't care for his music. I'm just wondering why I can't be critical. I simply don't find Sibelius' symphonies as awesome as many claim them to be.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PMSo my question to you is this: why do you continue to post on a composer's thread that you don't care for?
Wow, I really have filled this thread with my posts, haven't I? I posted here because I recently had a
positive Sibelius experience with the last movement of the 5th Symphony. Maybe I did care for some of the notes written by Sibelius?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PMDon't you have something better to do? Seems quite counterproductive to me.
Arguably I have tons of better things to do, but I suppose this applies to us all. I'm sure we all "waste" most of the time we spend on GMG. That's life. Other people waste their time on even dumber ways. At least we are talking about Sibelius ( ="high culture" ).
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2015, 03:25:00 PMI've posted on composers' threads I didn't care for previously and came under heavy fire, so think of this as seeing the errors of my own way and calling you out for the same thing I shouldn't have been doing in the first place.
I see your point, but did I express that much hate? Really?
Calling Sibelius a conman was ludicrous. Not strictly hateful, because it cannot be taken seriously.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:09:00 AM
I simply don't find Sibelius' symphonies as awesome as many claim them to be.
If it were as simple as that, denigrating him as a
conman would not have entered the picture.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2015, 04:40:35 AM
. . . an absurd simplification. Be fair: you would be impatient with anyone characterizing Elgar's symphonies -- only two of them, compared to Sibelius' seven -- by a single, trending-negative qualifier. "Too pompous," I think is a frequent canard . . . .
Elgar's symphonies are longer than those of Sibelius and if we continue this meaningless comparison, we could ask where are Sibelius' oratorios?
I don't care if people find Elgar's rich orchestration and sophisticated complexity "pompous" because that's exactly what I want to hear.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:21:54 AM
Elgar's symphonies are longer than those of Sibelius and if we continue this meaningless comparison, we could ask where are Sibelius' oratorios?
I don't care if people find Elgar's rich orchestration and sophisticated complexity "pompous" because that's exactly what I want to hear.
Thank you for missing the point entirely.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2015, 08:13:50 AM
If it were as simple as that, denigrating him as a conman would not have entered the picture.
I don't actually call him a conman, but sometimes I do feel like listening to one when listening to Sibelius.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 08, 2015, 08:26:11 AM
Thank you for missing the point entirely.
You are welcome Karl. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:26:35 AM
I don't actually call him a conman, but sometimes I do feel like listening to one when listening to Sibelius.
A distinction without a difference, surely.
Quote from: orfeo on October 08, 2015, 07:16:35 AM
To take another example, the first movement of the 2nd symphony impresses me because of the way the main theme sounds like an introduction. That's not an easy trick at all, to make you believe that there's an introduction, and then you start thinking "when is the main material going to arrive?" and then eventually at some point your brain switches and realises there was no introduction at all, and that he started with a fragmented version of the theme before integrating it (the opposite of what most composers had done, although Beethoven in the Eroica finale did something similar). It's an exercise in presenting the counterpoint lines separately first!
"separated counterpoint" is meaningless to me because what happens "now" is relevant to me in music. What happened 20 seconds ago is distant history, mostly forgotten. This may explain Why I don't care for some composers (those who use "temporarily separated structures" extensively). Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.
Quote from: orfeo on October 08, 2015, 08:28:33 AM
A distinction without a difference, surely.
You can be affraid of harmless things (irrational fears are common). You don't call thise things dangerous, but you fear them nevertheless.
Calling Sibelius a conman would be ridiculous, yet I do have these (irrational) feelings...
I do enjoy quite a lot this disc, both Grieg and Sibelius.:
[asin]B0000274PC[/asin]
No conmen here... :D
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:09:00 AM
Possibly, but not recently.
I wouldn't say I don't care for his music. I'm just wondering why I can't be critical. I simply don't find Sibelius' symphonies as awesome as many claim them to be.
Wow, I really have filled this thread with my posts, haven't I? I posted here because I recently had a positive Sibelius experience with the last movement of the 5th Symphony. Maybe I did care for some of the notes written by Sibelius?
Arguably I have tons of better things to do, but I suppose this applies to us all. I'm sure we all "waste" most of the time we spend on GMG. That's life. Other people waste their time on even dumber ways. At least we are talking about Sibelius ( ="high culture" ).
I see your point, but did I express that much hate? Really?
I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.
Not as silly as listening to an Elgar symphony of course, but silly nonetheless. ;)
Quote from: Ken B on October 08, 2015, 01:20:43 PM
I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.
Yeah, I think everyone is being very rude to 71 dB instead of taking the other route and having an interesting discussion about Sibelian counterpoint and thematic development. Maybe that discussion is harder.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:40:57 AM
. Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.
I think I can fairly be called a mathematical person, and those things are not true of me. So l don't agree with your theory. Also, the stereotype is mathematical types like counterpoint (true of me) but that can involve what was heard more than 20 seconds ago.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 07, 2015, 10:17:15 AMI even feel Sibelius was a cunning conman.
I could respond to all of your responses to my own posts, but after reading the quote above (that I somehow missed), what would be the point? I'll just leave you to be believe what you want to believe. Good luck to you.
Show is over folks. Nothing more to see here. :)
Quote from: Ken B on October 08, 2015, 01:20:43 PM
I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.
Not as silly as listening to an Elgar symphony of course, but silly nonetheless. ;)
Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all
understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's
La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.
Getting back to the Sibelius' music, has anyone heard any of Simon Rattle's new Berliner cycle yet? How about Kamu's on BIS?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2015, 04:22:58 PM
Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.
More tedious than "great work of course"? We're here to express opinions John. Mine is that you have been rude.
Quote from: Ken B on October 08, 2015, 05:34:35 PM
More tedious than "great work of course"? We're here to express opinions John. Mine is that you have been rude.
Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.' Anyway, you believe I've been rude? How so? I think you're unnecessarily rude every time you cut down a composer I enjoy for the umpteenth time, but did I ever tell you to "put a sock in it"? No, I held my tongue with hopes that you would somehow realize that you're only alienating yourself from other people here who would actually like to have a decent conversation with you.
I've now got round to 'Andante Festivo' in my new boxed set of historic recordings, which I am very happy with, the only work conducted on record by Sibelius himself. The work is usually dismissed as insignificant but I liked it very much and it was even more touching knowing that it was the great man himself conducting it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2015, 04:22:58 PM
Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.
I actually agree with Ken. I could see myself criticizing some other composer in a same way 71dB critiziced Sibelius, without seeing nothing wrong with it. I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism. :P
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2015, 05:46:01 PM
Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.' Anyway, you believe I've been rude? How so? I think you're unnecessarily rude every time you cut down a composer I enjoy for the umpteenth time, but did I ever tell you to "put a sock in it"? No, I held my tongue with hopes that you would somehow realize that you're only alienating yourself from other people here who would actually like to have a decent conversation with you.
Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? ;)
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 12:59:52 AM
. . . I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism. :P
Well,
that's an improvement, certainly ;)
And, folks: what is it that happens at the start of the
Sixth Symphony, if not two-voice counterpoint?
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 01:03:45 AM
Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? ;)
Hey,
I don't feel that Williams is above criticism, either 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2015, 02:14:01 AM
Hey, I don't feel that Williams is above criticism, either 8)
Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 02:21:47 AM
Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.
Spoken like a gentleman! :)
Williams has certainly written a good number of catchy, characterful melodies; the man has talent.
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 01:03:45 AM
Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? ;)
That was awhile back and my outlook, especially in regards to formulating and expressing any kind of criticism has changed since then.
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 12:59:52 AM
I actually agree with Ken. I could see myself criticizing some other composer in a same way 71dB critiziced Sibelius, without seeing nothing wrong with it. I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism. :P
Well, I wouldn't say Sibelius is 'above criticism' either, but, let's face it, any composer worth their salt is going to face some kind of criticism from someone at some point, but the 'conman' comment certainly was
beyond what I'm used to hearing.
Anyway...back to the music. ;)
Quote from: orfeo on October 08, 2015, 07:16:35 AM
See, I find this a bit mystifying. Because it's the structural ingenuity that draws me in the first place.
Rigid rhythmic structures? I listened to the 3rd symphony last week, and was reminded yet again that the first movement is one of my favourite things by anyone, ever, and a huge part of the reason for that is the amazing way the music starts and stops. To me, Sibelius has more control of tempo than almost any other composer, to the extent that he can create a sense of multiple tempos operating at the same time, with different parts of the music moving at different speeds.
To take another example, the first movement of the 2nd symphony impresses me because of the way the main theme sounds like an introduction. That's not an easy trick at all, to make you believe that there's an introduction, and then you start thinking "when is the main material going to arrive?" and then eventually at some point your brain switches and realises there was no introduction at all, and that he started with a fragmented version of the theme before integrating it (the opposite of what most composers had done, although Beethoven in the Eroica finale did something similar). It's an exercise in presenting the counterpoint lines separately first!
I also really don't understand how the number of instruments playing is relevant. It's actually harder to achieve your musical and structural goals with an economy of means, rather than throwing a whole booming orchestra around. Sibelius is to my mind perhaps the greatest orchestrator, and that's precisely because he uses his colours very carefully and delicately.
Thanks for this post, much to assent to . . . in particular, yes,
Sibelius is a marvelously
specific orchestrator.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 09, 2015, 03:58:40 AMSibelius is a marvelously specific orchestrator.
Agreed. In terms of orchestration I Would say he's at his very Best in symphonies 4 and 6, pohjolas daughter, nightride, luonnotar and oceanides.
Love the bass clarinet and harp in the Sixth: masterly and subtle!
Quote from: 71 dB on October 08, 2015, 08:40:57 AM
"separated counterpoint" is meaningless to me because what happens "now" is relevant to me in music. What happened 20 seconds ago is distant history, mostly forgotten. This may explain Why I don't care for some composers (those who use "temporarily separated structures" extensively). Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.
Well, yes, if your musical experience is that much in the here and now, I wouldn't think Sibelius is for you particularly, nor many of the other composers that I respond to.
You're into vertical music, and I'm into horizontal...
I don't much understand that objection, either. There is continuous "now" in Sibelius (even in the symphonies) 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2015, 05:46:01 PM
Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.'
I don't want to burst your ego, but my opinions about Sibelius have absolutely nothing to do with you. I have nothing against people enjoying the music of Sibelius. It's cool you do enjoy Sibelius (a composer of my own nationality).
I don't think I have criticized Sibelius "continuously". I'm not having fun either. I'm telling how I feel. I have told how I find some of Sibelius' music less than awesome, but I also have said some of Sibelius' music I do enjoy. I'm not officially calling Sibelius a conman, some of Sibelius' music gives me such associations and I can't help it. I wish I enjoyed Sibelius more, of course. Perhaps some day I will.
Sorry about making you feel bad. I didn't realise my opinions have such power. :o
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2015, 08:40:55 AM
I don't want to burst your ego, but my opinions about Sibelius have absolutely nothing to do with you.
(You were not addressing me but...) this confirms my thesis. Carry on,
Poju 8)
Quote from: Alberich on October 09, 2015, 02:21:47 AM
Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.
Movie music composers do not need to write 100 % original music. They need to know what to steel. Why? Because Lucas
could have used Stravinsky's music on Star Wars. Instead he wanted "Korngoldian" music by John Williams, where some bits are "stolen" from appropriate sources. The goal is not original music, but as good movie music for the movie as possible. I'd say John Williams delivered.
Who cares about John Williams in the Sibelius thread...
Anyway, here's an idea, let's get back to Sibelius, so no one has heard the two new cycles from Rattle and Kamu?
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2015, 03:14:24 PM
Who cares about John Williams in the Sibelius thread...
Alberich.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2015, 03:14:24 PMAnyway, here's an idea, let's get back to Sibelius,..-
Okay. Yesterday there was a rather interesting program on TV about Sibelius' symphonies, how they evolved and how Sibelius as a person evolved. Hannu Lintu was the commentator. Even if I don't worship every note by Sibelius, I found this program interesting. For example, the fourth symphony was widely rejected as a weird work and people's faith in Sibelius was restored by the fifth symphony. After this program there was another one about how French people have disliked Sibelius, even calling him the worst composer in the world. Crazy. :P
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2015, 10:24:10 PM
Even if I don't worship every note by Sibelius
What, you don't
worship every note by that
conman? And yet others are being rude to you, right?
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2015, 04:34:17 AM
What, you don't worship every note by that conman? And yet others are being rude to you, right?
If you think about it, praising a composer others dislike carries a stronger implication of criticism of other listeners than does criticizing one. Most critics couch their complaints about with disclaimers, or say they just miss what is surely there. Praise implies the praiser gets what the other misses.
In a wild attempt to talk about some actual music...
I just read that one of the bits of the incidental music for Swanwhite ended up being a basis for the slow movement of the 5th symphony.
I'm not sure if it's in evidence in the suite version of Swanwhite, it may only appear in the full incidental music (which BIS has a recording of of course), in the 10th of the 13 episodes.
EDIT: The 6th number in the suite?? It's giving me vibes.
Quote from: orfeo on October 10, 2015, 07:58:36 AM
In a wild attempt to talk about some actual music...
I just read that one of the bits of the incidental music for Swanwhite ended up being a basis for the slow movement of the 5th symphony.
I'm not sure if it's in evidence in the suite version of Swanwhite, it may only appear in the full incidental music (which BIS has a recording of of course), in the 10th of the 13 episodes.
EDIT: The 6th number in the suite?? It's giving me vibes.
You just inspired me to listen to these extracts! It sounds like a piece worth hearing in full...
This Naxos CD has 14 tracks, not 13, so I don't know if I'm listening to the right clips. The 6th has some ominous bass that reminds me of the Fourth Symphony, but the flutes and pizzicato violins (around 2:30) definitely sounds a bit like Symphony No. 5.
Ohhhh I think it's track 11. (Marked "Allegretto: Nar konungen gar") Listen to the sudden turn that pizzicato+flute melody takes at 0:27-0:38. Definitely could be an inspiration to Symphony No. 5.
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2015, 08:43:24 AM
Ohhhh I think it's track 11. (Marked "Allegretto: Nar konungen gar") Listen to the sudden turn that pizzicato+flute melody takes at 0:27-0:38. Definitely could be an inspiration to Symphony No. 5.
Yes, if you have 14 tracks it will be track 11 (the first track is a horncall that apparently doesn't get counted in the numbered ones all the time).
In the suite version, there are only 7 numbers and it's number 6.
Yes, definitely echoes of the symphony. Around 21 minutes in the complete work
https://www.youtube.com/v/a3sxwYlSpQE
Swanwhite certainly is a gorgeous work. In fact, I really enjoy all of the incidental music I've heard so far, but my favorite is, of course, The Tempest. Absolute masterpiece and a work that has endless melodic invention.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 09, 2015, 10:24:10 PM
Alberich.
I merely mentioned Williams in a passing sentence. Did not mean to start a debate.
I have listened to Swanwhite but alas, cannot recall at the moment whether I liked it or not. IIRC, Tawastjerna preferred Pelleas and (naturally) The Tempest.
.
Quote from: North Star on October 12, 2015, 06:48:33 AM
I learned yesterday that Symphony No. 3 was based on material from the plans for an oratorio Marjatta based on the last book of Kalevala, an allegory for the Christianisation of Finland. (Marjatta is impregnated by a lingonberry she eats, Väinämöinen condemns the son born out of wedlock to death, but the child speaks and chastises Väinämöinen. After the child is crowned King of Karelia, Väinämöinen leaves and bequeaths his songs and kantele to the people). The program (advent - nativity - death - resurrection) can still be seen in the work. Sibelius also quotes his own hymn Soi kiitokseski Luojan (http://www.theparisreview.org/poetry/5457/visitations-anthony-hecht) (In praise of our Creator) in the third movement.
Does anyone have the track listing for this 14 disc set? With my avatar, I realize it is liking asking if anyone has seen my keys. Hah! :D
[asin]B00ZB7UYF8[/asin]
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 13, 2015, 06:00:36 PM
Does anyone have the track listing for this 14 disc set? With my avatar, I realize it is liking asking if anyone has seen my keys. Hah! :D
[asin]B00ZB7UYF8[/asin]
From Amazon actually:
Product Description
An authoritative, comprehensive Edition covering all of the most important music Sibelius wrote.
Symphonies
CD 1
Symphony no. 1
Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein
CD 2
Symphony no. 2
Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein
CD 3
1 3 Symphony no. 3 ca. 30
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
4 7 Lemminkänen Suite (45:15)
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
CD 4
Symphonies nos. 4 & 6
Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan
CD 5
Symphonies nos. 5 & 7
Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan
CD 6 Kullervo Symphony
Turku PO / Jorma Panula
Tone Poems / Orchestral
CD 7 Tone Poems 1 (77:09)
En saga op. 9 18:28
Karelia Suite op. 11 II 14:48
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
Rakastava for Strings op. 14 ca. 15
ASMF / Marriner
Spring Song op. 16 7:46
Finlandia op. 26 9:02
Pohjola s Daughter op. 49 12:05
Gothenburg SO / Järvi
CD 8 Tone Poems 2 (77:43)
Night Ride and Sunrise op. 55 14:49
In Memoriam op. 59 12
The Bard op. 64 6:53
Luonnotar op. 70 8:29
The Oceanides op. 73 10:23
Andante festivo (1924) 5:00
Tapiola op. 112 20:09
Concerto
CD 9
1 3 Violin Concerto in D minor op. 47
4 5 2 Serenades op. 69
6 Humoresque op. 87 no. 1
Songs
CD 10
1 Våren flyktar hastigt op.13/4 (Runeberg) 1:57
Spring Flies Fast
2 Diamanten på Märssnon op.36/6 (Wecksell) 2:34
A Diamond on March Snow
3 Säv, säv, susa op.36/4 (Fröding) 2:38
Sigh, Sigh, Sedges
4 Svarta rosor op.36/1 (Josephson) 2:11
Black Roses
5 Come Away, Death op.60/1(Shakespeare: Twelfth Night) 3:40
6 When that I was a little tiny boy op.60/2 (Shakespeare: Twelfth Night) 2:24
7 Les trois s urs aveugles op.46/5 (Maeterlinck, from Pelléas et Mélisande) 3:27
The Three Blind Sisters
8 Im Feld ein Mädchen singt op.50/3 (Susman) 3:18
9 Souda, souda, sinisorsa (Forsman-Koskimies) 1:56
Swim, Little Duck, Swim
10 Finlandia-Hymni op.26 (Koskenniemi) 2:52
11 Lastu lainehilla op.17/7 (Calamnius-Kianto) 1:39
Driftwood
12 Illalle op.17/6 (Forsman-Koskimies) 1:48
To The Evening
Kim Borg, bass/Erik Werba, piano
13 Var det en dröm? op.37/4 (Wecksell) 2:05
Was it a Dream?
14 Flickan kom ifrån sin älsklings möte op.37/5 (Runeberg) 2:59
The Maiden Returned from her Lover s Tryst
15 Längtan heter min arfvedel op.86/2 (Karlfeldt) 2:51
Longing is my Heritage
16 På verandan vid havet op.38/2 (Rydberg) 3:05
On a Balcony by the Sea
17 Romeo op.61/4 (Tavaststjerna) 1:44
18 Höstkväll op.38/1 (Rydberg) 4:11
Autumn Evening
19 Den första kyssen op.37/1 (Runeberg) 2:01
The First Kiss
20 Långsamt som qvällskyn op.61/1 (Tavaststjerna) 2:30
Slowly as the Evening Sky
21 Norden op.90/1 (Runeberg) 2:33
The North
22 Narciss (Gripenberg) 2:14
Narcissus
23 Vilse op.17/4 (Tavaststjerna) 0:58
Astray
24 Kullervon valitus from Kullervo Symphony op.7 (Kalevala Runo XXXV) 2:35
Kullervo s Lament
Chamber / Solo Piano
CD 11
1 5 String Quartet in D minor op. 56 Voces intimae
Emerson SQ
6 Malinconia op. 20 for cello and piano
Schiff
7 The Spruce, Winter Landscape for solo piano
Forsberg
8 Romance in D flat for solo piano op 24/9 Cherkassky
Stage Works
CD 12 Stage Works 1
1 6 King Christian II op. 27 Suite for orchestra 23:33
Pelleas & Melisande 35
CD 13 Stage Works 2:
1 3 Scénes historiques Suite no. 1 op. 25
4 6 Scénes historiques Suite no.2 op. 66
7 Scaramouch op. 71
8 14 Swanwhite Suite op 54
CD 14 Stage Works 3
Four Kuolema extracts:
1 Valse triste op. 44 no. 1
2 Scene with Cranes op. 44 no. 2
3 Canzonetta op. 62a
4 Valse romantique op.62b
5 13 The Tempest Suite no. 1 op. 109 no. 2
14 20 The Tempest Suite no. 2
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2015, 06:17:23 PM
From Amazon actually:
Product Description
An authoritative, comprehensive Edition covering all of the most important music Sibelius wrote.
Symphonies
CD 1
Symphony no. 1
Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein
CD 2
Symphony no. 2
Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein
CD 3
1 3 Symphony no. 3 ca. 30
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
4 7 Lemminkänen Suite (45:15)
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
CD 4
Symphonies nos. 4 & 6
Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan
CD 5
Symphonies nos. 5 & 7
Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan
CD 6 Kullervo Symphony
Turku PO / Jorma Panula
Tone Poems / Orchestral
CD 7 Tone Poems 1 (77:09)
En saga op. 9 18:28
Karelia Suite op. 11 II 14:48
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
Rakastava for Strings op. 14 ca. 15
ASMF / Marriner
Spring Song op. 16 7:46
Finlandia op. 26 9:02
Pohjola s Daughter op. 49 12:05
Gothenburg SO / Järvi
CD 8 Tone Poems 2 (77:43)
Night Ride and Sunrise op. 55 14:49
In Memoriam op. 59 12
The Bard op. 64 6:53
Luonnotar op. 70 8:29
The Oceanides op. 73 10:23
Andante festivo (1924) 5:00
Tapiola op. 112 20:09
Concerto
CD 9
1 3 Violin Concerto in D minor op. 47
4 5 2 Serenades op. 69
6 Humoresque op. 87 no. 1
Songs
CD 10
1 Våren flyktar hastigt op.13/4 (Runeberg) 1:57
Spring Flies Fast
2 Diamanten på Märssnon op.36/6 (Wecksell) 2:34
A Diamond on March Snow
3 Säv, säv, susa op.36/4 (Fröding) 2:38
Sigh, Sigh, Sedges
4 Svarta rosor op.36/1 (Josephson) 2:11
Black Roses
5 Come Away, Death op.60/1(Shakespeare: Twelfth Night) 3:40
6 When that I was a little tiny boy op.60/2 (Shakespeare: Twelfth Night) 2:24
7 Les trois s urs aveugles op.46/5 (Maeterlinck, from Pelléas et Mélisande) 3:27
The Three Blind Sisters
8 Im Feld ein Mädchen singt op.50/3 (Susman) 3:18
9 Souda, souda, sinisorsa (Forsman-Koskimies) 1:56
Swim, Little Duck, Swim
10 Finlandia-Hymni op.26 (Koskenniemi) 2:52
11 Lastu lainehilla op.17/7 (Calamnius-Kianto) 1:39
Driftwood
12 Illalle op.17/6 (Forsman-Koskimies) 1:48
To The Evening
Kim Borg, bass/Erik Werba, piano
13 Var det en dröm? op.37/4 (Wecksell) 2:05
Was it a Dream?
14 Flickan kom ifrån sin älsklings möte op.37/5 (Runeberg) 2:59
The Maiden Returned from her Lover s Tryst
15 Längtan heter min arfvedel op.86/2 (Karlfeldt) 2:51
Longing is my Heritage
16 På verandan vid havet op.38/2 (Rydberg) 3:05
On a Balcony by the Sea
17 Romeo op.61/4 (Tavaststjerna) 1:44
18 Höstkväll op.38/1 (Rydberg) 4:11
Autumn Evening
19 Den första kyssen op.37/1 (Runeberg) 2:01
The First Kiss
20 Långsamt som qvällskyn op.61/1 (Tavaststjerna) 2:30
Slowly as the Evening Sky
21 Norden op.90/1 (Runeberg) 2:33
The North
22 Narciss (Gripenberg) 2:14
Narcissus
23 Vilse op.17/4 (Tavaststjerna) 0:58
Astray
24 Kullervon valitus from Kullervo Symphony op.7 (Kalevala Runo XXXV) 2:35
Kullervo s Lament
Chamber / Solo Piano
CD 11
1 5 String Quartet in D minor op. 56 Voces intimae
Emerson SQ
6 Malinconia op. 20 for cello and piano
Schiff
7 The Spruce, Winter Landscape for solo piano
Forsberg
8 Romance in D flat for solo piano op 24/9 Cherkassky
Stage Works
CD 12 Stage Works 1
1 6 King Christian II op. 27 Suite for orchestra 23:33
Pelleas & Melisande 35
CD 13 Stage Works 2:
1 3 Scénes historiques Suite no. 1 op. 25
4 6 Scénes historiques Suite no.2 op. 66
7 Scaramouch op. 71
8 14 Swanwhite Suite op 54
CD 14 Stage Works 3
Four Kuolema extracts:
1 Valse triste op. 44 no. 1
2 Scene with Cranes op. 44 no. 2
3 Canzonetta op. 62a
4 Valse romantique op.62b
5 13 The Tempest Suite no. 1 op. 109 no. 2
14 20 The Tempest Suite no. 2
Wonderful. Thanks,
John. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 13, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
Wonderful. Thanks, John. :)
From one Sibelian to another: you're most welcome, Ray. 8)
CD 8 looks like a terrific programme.
Is the reason Luonnotar is performed/recorded relatively rarely it's difficulty or is it just not well liked (audience-wise or in academic circles)?
Quote from: Alberich on October 14, 2015, 03:10:15 AM
Is the reason Luonnotar is performed/recorded relatively rarely it's difficulty or is it just not well liked (audience-wise or in academic circles)?
No kidding! It's my favourite tone poem by Sibelius!
Quote from: Alberich on October 14, 2015, 03:10:15 AM
Is the reason Luonnotar is performed/recorded relatively rarely it's difficulty or is it just not well liked (audience-wise or in academic circles)?
It
is in Finnish, a language that is not too familiar for most singers. And there are loads of other
Sibelius pieces that aren't performed often enough. Looking at Arkiv (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=11179&name_role1=1&comp_id=2794&bcorder=15), there is a fair reperentation of it on CD.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 14, 2015, 05:48:23 AM
No kidding! It's my favourite tone poem by Sibelius!
You sir have an excellent taste. 8)
Meanwhile, for some very late
Sibelius on organ
https://www.youtube.com/v/KJoUIfYsHso
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 14, 2015, 05:48:23 AM
No kidding! It's my favourite tone poem by Sibelius!
I'm inclined to agree. Along with Pohjola's daughter it's at the very top.
Quote from: Alberich on October 12, 2015, 07:13:20 AM
I merely mentioned Williams in a passing sentence. Did not mean to start a debate.
I know, but mentioning
anyone in a passing sentence
always starts a debate on a discussion board. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on October 14, 2015, 08:26:41 AM
I know, but mentioning anyone in a passing sentence always starts a debate on a discussion board. ;)
I wonder what Theophilus Bultinghorn would have thought about that?
[Sits back and waits to see ...]
Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2015, 06:00:03 AM
Meanwhile, for some very late Sibelius on organ
https://www.youtube.com/v/KJoUIfYsHso
Lovely!
And, gosh: I know
Iain . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2015, 10:56:08 AM
Lovely!
And, gosh: I know Iain . . . .
Lovely indeed,
Karl, and the best hint at what might have been the 8th symphony.
Quote from: Alberich on October 14, 2015, 06:08:08 AM
I'm inclined to agree. Along with Pohjola's daughter it's at the very top.
Huh? Isn't that by John Williams?
Quote from: Elgarian on October 14, 2015, 10:46:24 AM
I wonder what Theophilus Bultinghorn would have thought about that?
[Sits back and waits to see ...]
It's debatable whether
Theophilus Bultinghorn is worth a debate or not...
Well, this is it. This is the big moment. I found the one.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/00028944789522.jpg)
After 10 years of searching, I've finally found a Sibelius violin concerto recording to be satisfied with. It's been a long and sometimes fairly desperate search. But this is The One.
My criteria, I always knew, were way outside the Sibelian mainstream. It's why most people's recommendations were turning me off - my tastes are just weird. A lively tempo in the first movement, kept under 16 minutes, not too dreary or frigid. (Eliminated: Hilary Hahn, Leonidas Kavakos, Pekka Kuusisto, Julian Rachlin, Viktoria Mullova, etc.) A truly huge violinist tone and presence, ardently romantic, married to absolute technical and emotional control. (Eliminated: Itzhak Perlman, Christian Tetzlaff.) Stereo sound and a responsive, well-miked orchestra. (Eliminated: Ivry Gitlis, Jascha Heifetz, Dong-Suk Kang, Oistrakh/Ehrling.) This left a "Hall of Almost Being Right" including such almost-right recordings as Adele Anthony, her husband Gil Shaham, Frank Peter Zimmermann, and Oistrakh/Ormandy. For a long, long time I thought that Adele Anthony would be the best I'd ever find. (Kavakos is still the worst.)
But Mutter/Previn...they GET it, man. The tense push-and-pull between big heart-on-sleeve romantic rhapsodizing and cold shot-of-vodka realism. The flexibility to be both warm and cool. The need to finish the concerto within, say, 32 minutes. The copious opportunities for portamenti.
Yeah, I can imagine a better performance/recording. I've spent 10 years hearing better performances in my head. But you know what? Close enough. This is pretty f'in great. It's the first Sibelius concerto I've really loved since the mono masters of Gitlis, Heifetz, and Oistrakh. And today is a good day. 8)
Quote from: Brian on October 20, 2015, 11:08:00 AM
Well, this is it. This is the big moment. I found the one.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/00028944789522.jpg)
After 10 years of searching, I've finally found a Sibelius violin concerto recording to be satisfied with. It's been a long and sometimes fairly desperate search. But this is The One.
My criteria, I always knew, were way outside the Sibelian mainstream. It's why most people's recommendations were turning me off - my tastes are just weird. A lively tempo in the first movement, kept under 16 minutes, not too dreary or frigid. (Eliminated: Hilary Hahn, Leonidas Kavakos, Pekka Kuusisto, Julian Rachlin, Viktoria Mullova, etc.) A truly huge violinist tone and presence, ardently romantic, married to absolute technical and emotional control. (Eliminated: Itzhak Perlman, Christian Tetzlaff.) Stereo sound and a responsive, well-miked orchestra. (Eliminated: Ivry Gitlis, Jascha Heifetz, Dong-Suk Kang, Oistrakh/Ehrling.) This left a "Hall of Almost Being Right" including such almost-right recordings as Adele Anthony, her husband Gil Shaham, Frank Peter Zimmermann, and Oistrakh/Ormandy. For a long, long time I thought that Adele Anthony would be the best I'd ever find. (Kavakos is still the worst.)
But Mutter/Previn...they GET it, man. The tense push-and-pull between big heart-on-sleeve romantic rhapsodizing and cold shot-of-vodka realism. The flexibility to be both warm and cool. The need to finish the concerto within, say, 32 minutes. The copious opportunities for portamenti.
Yeah, I can imagine a better performance/recording. I've spent 10 years hearing better performances in my head. But you know what? Close enough. This is pretty f'in great. It's the first Sibelius concerto I've really loved since the mono masters of Gitlis, Heifetz, and Oistrakh. And today is a good day. 8)
Glad you found 'The One' for you,
Brian. :)
For me,
Hilary Hahn's recording remains 'The One' for me. Turned this into my favourite Violin Concerto of any composer, eclipsing my long favourite Brahms & Beethoven. :)
Quote from: Brian on October 20, 2015, 11:08:00 AM
Well, this is it. This is the big moment. I found the one.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/00028944789522.jpg)
After 10 years of searching, I've finally found a Sibelius violin concerto recording to be satisfied with. It's been a long and sometimes fairly desperate search. But this is The One.
My criteria, I always knew, were way outside the Sibelian mainstream. It's why most people's recommendations were turning me off - my tastes are just weird. A lively tempo in the first movement, kept under 16 minutes, not too dreary or frigid. (Eliminated: Hilary Hahn, Leonidas Kavakos, Pekka Kuusisto, Julian Rachlin, Viktoria Mullova, etc.) A truly huge violinist tone and presence, ardently romantic, married to absolute technical and emotional control. (Eliminated: Itzhak Perlman, Christian Tetzlaff.) Stereo sound and a responsive, well-miked orchestra. (Eliminated: Ivry Gitlis, Jascha Heifetz, Dong-Suk Kang, Oistrakh/Ehrling.) This left a "Hall of Almost Being Right" including such almost-right recordings as Adele Anthony, her husband Gil Shaham, Frank Peter Zimmermann, and Oistrakh/Ormandy. For a long, long time I thought that Adele Anthony would be the best I'd ever find. (Kavakos is still the worst.)
But Mutter/Previn...they GET it, man. The tense push-and-pull between big heart-on-sleeve romantic rhapsodizing and cold shot-of-vodka realism. The flexibility to be both warm and cool. The need to finish the concerto within, say, 32 minutes. The copious opportunities for portamenti.
Yeah, I can imagine a better performance/recording. I've spent 10 years hearing better performances in my head. But you know what? Close enough. This is pretty f'in great. It's the first Sibelius concerto I've really loved since the mono masters of Gitlis, Heifetz, and Oistrakh. And today is a good day. 8)
Wonderful. Thanks for this Brian. I shall put it on my list of wants.*
* No, scratch that. I just found a cheap used copy on Amazon and have ordered it.
The Hahn/Salonen performance is still the one to beat for me with Kuusisto/Segerstam coming in a distant second place. 8) I heard the Mutter/Previn and my reaction after it was "Meh. I've heard better." Nothing too special about it for me.
Brian, now that you've found The One... have you tried Leila Josefowicz? I think she meets your stated criteria. You might find other problems, but she's worth a listen at least.
So you are telling me not to bother with the "original version" BIS disc by Kavakos?
I don't sufficiently care for the piece, I am afraid (still for some reason I am slightly enticed by that "original version" BIS disc).
I got rid of Mutter's a few months ago... too "romantic", I thought, but mainly because I felt that with Heifetz (probably 2: Beecham and the stereo one), Oistrakh/Roshdestvensky I had enough (that is, mainly having the piece at all). I still keep Tetzlaff because of the fillers (but tbh I probably care even less about them...)
I only have Mullova (which I got for the Tchaikovsky anyway). I don't really like the piece either, but then I have a pretty weird relationship with Sibelius, where three of the symphonies made an absolutely shattering effect on me, four of them I'm kinda indifferent to and everything else I've listened to hasn't held my attention.
Quote from: Brian on October 20, 2015, 11:08:00 AM
After 10 years of searching, I've finally found a Sibelius violin concerto recording to be satisfied with. It's been a long and sometimes fairly desperate search. But this is The One.
My criteria...the first movement, kept under 16 minutes,...The need to finish the concerto within, say, 32 minute
You've got the conductor right, but your soloist is still wrong ::) ...no more hints
Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2015, 12:58:39 AM
So you are telling me not to bother with the "original version" BIS disc by Kavakos?
Quote from: Brian on October 20, 2015, 11:08:00 AM
[...] My criteria, I always knew, were way outside the Sibelian mainstream.
Brian may not be telling any of us any particular thing. But he is sharing his joy in discovery.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2015, 12:58:39 AM
So you are telling me not to bother with the "original version" BIS disc by Kavakos?
I don't sufficiently care for the piece, I am afraid (still for some reason I am slightly enticed by that "original version" BIS disc).
I got rid of Mutter's a few months ago... too "romantic", I thought, but mainly because I felt that with Heifetz (probably 2: Beecham and the stereo one), Oistrakh/Roshdestvensky I had enough (that is, mainly having the piece at all). I still keep Tetzlaff because of the fillers (but tbh I probably care even less about them...)
Karl is right - I'm not telling anyone anything, especially when my taste so clearly differs from the mainstream. The mainstream, I think, is more aligned with you (Mutter being too romantic) and Mirror Image (who thinks Hahn and Kuusisto aren't painfully dull ;) ). And the mainstream loves Kavakos, a performance that drives me mad.
Pat B, I'll try Leila J. next!
Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 21, 2015, 02:48:44 AM
You've got the conductor right, but your soloist is still wrong ::) ...no more hints
That one is very, very, very high on my wishlist.
But what's the deal about that "original version" with Kavakos? Is this something a listener rather indifferent to the piece (I like the beginning, though) will even realize? Or make me less indifferent? Or is it more for dedicated Sibelius specialists?
Quote from: amw on October 21, 2015, 02:21:37 AM
I only have Mullova (which I got for the Tchaikovsky anyway). I don't really like the piece either, but then I have a pretty weird relationship with Sibelius, where three of the symphonies made an absolutely shattering effect on me, four of them I'm kinda indifferent to and everything else I've listened to hasn't held my attention.
I am fairly indifferent to the composer as well. Only sometimes and for some passages or movements I can barely understand the strong positive (as well as negative) reactions Sibelius' music seems to evoke or provoke with some listeners.
The concerto and the first symphony seem nice and somewhat original spins on the late romantic idiom (but for me nothing especially great). Similarly, the 2nd, but depending on mood this is one of my guilty pleasures. I am puzzled/bored by the 3rd, quite like the 4th and 6th, do not dislike but even less understand all the fuzz about the fifth symphony. I'd have to re-acquaint myself with the 7th, I think I also found that one rather elusive and enigmatic. (Not familiar enough with most of the tone poems.)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2015, 09:22:18 AM
But what's the deal about that "original version" with Kavakos? Is this something a listener rather indifferent to the piece (I like the beginning, though) will even realize? Or make me less indifferent? Or is it more for dedicated Sibelius specialists?
The original version, as I recall (it has been a few years), is somewhat longer, less concise, fairly badly organized, and probably not a good purchase unless you, in the coming years, become a massive Sibelius lover who lives and breathes the Sibelian spirit.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2015, 05:15:25 AM
Brian may not be telling any of us any particular thing. But he is sharing his joy in discovery.
Exactly so, Karl. That's precisely why I want to listen to it. I don't want to compare it with other versions - I just want to gatecrash Brian's party.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2015, 09:31:27 AMfor some passages or movements I can barely understand the strong positive (as well as negative) reactions Sibelius' music seems to evoke or provoke with some listeners.
I don't know either tbh. My feeling is that when I was 14 or so I was struggling with severe mental health issues and first starting to understand what I was, and Sibelius 3, 4 and 6 were in the right place at the right time. I know of no one else who has the same reactions to them. (Also to a lesser extent the first movement of 5 and—in a completely different way—the first movement of 2.) And works I only got to know much later (like 7 and Tapiola) that have many of the same characteristics never had the same effect.
I did listen to the performance of the Violin Concerto obliquely recommended by El Chupacabra, which is better than almost every other one I've heard, though I still can't muster much enthusiasm for the piece.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2015, 09:22:18 AM
But what's the deal about that "original version" with Kavakos? Is this something a listener rather indifferent to the piece (I like the beginning, though) will even realize? Or make me less indifferent?
You will most certainly realize the difference, because the differences are substantial. The original version is more virtuosic, there are extended passages that do not appear in the final version (some really exquisite episodes there) and the orchestration is more raw and menacing. In both versions, Kavakos combines primal power and supreme artistry. Understanding where the piece came from and how it evolved might help you, but then it might not. I can only offer my unreserved recommendation.
Quote from: Elgarian on October 21, 2015, 10:59:30 AM
Exactly so, Karl. That's precisely why I want to listen to it. I don't want to compare it with other versions - I just want to gatecrash Brian's party.
Because we know how enjoyable a party with
Brian is!
Listening to Tempest. In some peculiar way the part describing Prospero reminds me of Adagio of Bruckner's 7th. Amazingly inventive music.
I found the 8th symphony manuscript the other day in amongst some old cook books. I used it to line the cake tray when making a delicious sachertorte variation...mmmmm I think Sibelius made all the difference!
Wicked!
Quote from: Alberich on October 24, 2015, 07:13:33 AM
Listening to Tempest. In some peculiar way the part describing Prospero reminds me of Adagio of Bruckner's 7th. Amazingly inventive music.
One of Sibelius' most brilliant pieces of music IMHO. I take it you listened to the complete version with Vanska/Lahti SO or just the suites?
Quote from: Wanderer on October 21, 2015, 02:53:57 PM
You will most certainly realize the difference, because the differences are substantial. The original version is more virtuosic, there are extended passages that do not appear in the final version (some really exquisite episodes there) and the orchestration is more raw and menacing. In both versions, Kavakos combines primal power and supreme artistry. Understanding where the piece came from and how it evolved might help you, but then it might not. I can only offer my unreserved recommendation.
Thanks! So now am as wise as I was before... I'll keep in on the list (things keep very well on lists...)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2015, 06:50:11 PM
One of Sibelius' most brilliant pieces of music IMHO. I take it you listened to the complete version with Vanska/Lahti SO or just the suites?
Complete version and I'm glad I did. Suite's not bad but this blows the suite out of the water.
Quote from: Alberich on October 25, 2015, 01:31:46 AM
Complete version and I'm glad I did. Suite's not bad but this blows the suite out of the water.
True. And what an apt metaphor to use of
The Tempest. 8)
Quote from: Alberich on October 25, 2015, 01:31:46 AM
Complete version and I'm glad I did. Suite's not bad but this blows the suite out of the water.
Yes, it's always good to hear the complete work whenever you can. Suites offer only a glimpse into a work in most cases and don't give the full picture.
A note from BIS CEO Robert von Bahr about the Sibelius edition:
"Please consider the following so that you understand what Sibelius has meant to my family: My Great-great-grandfather was a cantor and luthier who actually tended to Sibelius's violin in his early years, his son was a violist, music critic (with the pen-name "bis"), who premièred several works by Sibelius and, on top of that, became Sibelius's first music publisher! His son, my Grandfather, was solo cellist in the Helsinki Phil and also premièred several works by Sibelius (and often went on drinking bouts with him), and his daughter, my Mother, being prima ballerina assoluta at the Finnish Opera, several times danced for him, incl. the Valse Triste. And I hereby close the circle with this Edition. So this isn't just editorial, it is also deeply personal and I am proud that the Sibelius Family has put to my disposal absolutely all material they have access to."
I'm listening to Night Ride and Sunrise
[asin]B000068R26[/asin]
I've got to say, the "Night Ride" leaves me a bit cold. It feels so... obvious. It does eventually get going, but for the first section it's just an endless dotted rhythm and it just doesn't do anything interesting. It's pretty rare for me to say something like this, but to me the first few minutes of the piece needed a significant edit.
The "Sunrise", on the other hand, can take all the time it likes.
Quote from: orfeo on November 28, 2015, 01:06:40 AM
I'm listening to Night Ride and Sunrise
[asin]B000068R26[/asin]
I've got to say, the "Night Ride" leaves me a bit cold. It feels so... obvious. It does eventually get going, but for the first section it's just an endless dotted rhythm and it just doesn't do anything interesting. It's pretty rare for me to say something like this, but to me the first few minutes of the piece needed a significant edit.
The "Sunrise", on the other hand, can take all the time it likes.
You bring up some good, and articulated, points about
Night Ride & Sunrise. I don't know how to explain it, but I love the work. I don't think there's anything overlong about it nor do I think any editing should have been done. It has a mesmerizing effect on me. Almost like proto-Minimalism in a way --- that kind of static feeling I get from the
Night Ride section. It's much of the same feeling I get from the atmospheric effects of
The Wood Nymph. I can understand your sentiment, though.
Yes, I thought of The Wood Nymph even as I was writing that post. Somehow I think the roughly equivalent passage in that work is marvellous, but this one not so much.
Anyway, you can't love 'em all.
That tone poem The Wood Nymph doesn't seem to be performed very often. I wonder why...it's one of my favourites! (Along with Tapiola and Luonnotar of course).
I was listening to the 7th symphony the other day (Segerstam), and remembering that wonderful conversation I had five years ago in this thread with Brian, and recalling how valuable it had been - it starts roughly here, for anyone interested:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451626.html#msg451626 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451626.html#msg451626)
I still don't understand the principle - that is, I don't understand the whole idea of why it should be a 'good thing' to compress a symphony into a single movement; but what I especially enjoyed was a sense of familiarity that has eluded me for more than 40 years. I found myself just going with it - almost like taking a walk and recognising various places along the path. And on reaching the end ... there was this sense of infinite space and time, and the unfathomability of everything lying beneath and behind the partial fathomabilities, and the eerie satisfaction of contemplating that in the company of Sibelius.
Thanks Brian.
Although I had a short phase where I thought Nightride as monotonic, usually I love it, even when recognizing its possible faults which even then have some odd charm about it. Northern, somewhat bleaker impressionism, as Tawastjerna put it.
I hope everyone has their plans set for Janne's 150th birthday tomorrow. 8)
Big day!
Quote from: North Star on December 07, 2015, 06:44:15 AM
I hope everyone has their plans set for Janne's 150th birthday tomorrow. 8)
I do now! :)
Quote from: North Star on December 07, 2015, 06:44:15 AM
I hope everyone has their plans set for Janne's 150th birthday tomorrow. 8)
Anything particular on your queue for tomorrow? :) I'll make it a week long celebration.
Some N. Jarvi tone poems, Maazel/Vienna symphonies and Hahn's Violin Concerto recordings. Looking forward to it. 8)
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 07, 2015, 07:00:06 AM
Anything particular on your queue for tomorrow? :) I'll make it a week long celebration.
Some N. Jarvi tone poems, Maazel/Vienna symphonies and Hahn's Violin Concerto recordings. Looking forward to it. 8)
Nothing specific, but I imagine some choice symphonies and tone poems will be revisited.
Happy birthday, Janne!
I've taken the opportunity today to listen to some Sibelius works I've neglected somewhat, and I must say, the Violin Concerto is actually very nice indeed. I've had it for a while, but I just kinda forgot about it. Spending my evening with the symphonies though.
For the 150th celebration, found this disc today at a local bookstore that has a very decent classical music section; of a work I have never heard of before. AND, it is a ballet by Sibelius! :)
So, for a first listen, I did like it. It is unique. Certainly interesting, and you can sense some of the characteristics of Sibelius' music. A good first impression, a strange mix of Swan Lake meets The Miraculous Mandarin? :o :D
Scaramouche Ballet, Op. 71 - composed 1913
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jtEgPZJ8L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I listened the fragments of the Eighth broadcast on Radio 3 (UK) on Sunday, all 2.30 s of them. These are found in some MSS dating from the 1920s. There's an opening, a scherzo fragment and a fragment of a slower movement. They all sound much more like the Sixth Symphony than the Seventh and Tapiola.
I think that the Eighth was fully composed in the late 1920s and early 1930s, or at least composed up to the finale. At this point I suspect that Sibelius was finding that the logic of the music was making the symphony end in a key that was not the tonic and he couldn't find a way to bring the music back home. Despite the conscious effort he made in the Seventh and Tapiola to write music rooted in their respective tonics and hardly leaving them, he could not help but revert to the tonal conflict of the Fourth and Sixth.
All credit to his integrity in not faking a tonic ending, but he really should have taken a deep breath and just trusted to the music. An Eighth Symphony involving progressive tonality would have been Sibelius's crowning masterpiece.
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 08, 2015, 02:32:10 PM
For the 150th celebration, found this disc today at a local bookstore that has a very decent classical music section; of a work I have never heard of before. AND, it is a ballet by Sibelius! :)
So, for a first listen, I did like it. It is unique. Certainly interesting, and you can sense some of the characteristics of Sibelius' music. A good first impression, a strange mix of Swan Lake meets The Miraculous Mandarin? :o :D
Scaramouche Ballet, Op. 71 - composed 1913
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jtEgPZJ8L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Has no one else heard this complete work? :( There are only two existing recorded performances. The Segerstam above, and N. Jarvi/Gothenburg.
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 09, 2015, 06:15:20 AM
Has no one else heard this complete work? :( There are only two existing recorded performances. The Segerstam above, and N. Jarvi/Gothenburg.
I have heard it, Ray, but I don't remember it making a strong impression on me. Not to say it's a
bad work or anything. I really need to revisit it. I own the Jarvi. I imagine Segerstam being even better than Jarvi.
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 09, 2015, 06:15:20 AM
Has no one else heard this complete work? :( There are only two existing recorded performances. The Segerstam above, and N. Jarvi/Gothenburg.
I've heard it and I find it remarkable! I listened to it for the first time early this year when looking up some of his lesser known works. It truly is a hidden gem. So many hidden gems in his output! :)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on December 13, 2015, 01:12:04 AMSo many hidden gems in his output! :)
And thanks to these Sibelius Edition sets on BIS, I have been able to hear many of these buried treasures. One of my great discoveries in the
Voice & Orchestra set was
The Origin of Fire, which, for some reason, I neglected as it was actually found in the Berglund/Helsinki set on EMI. Not sure
why I missed it, but there you have it.
Listened to the 4th symphony last night. Honestly, I think it's one of the most amazing things in music. All of the 'formal' boxes of a symphony are ticked, and yet the effect is this brooding, dark thing that just sounds unlike anything else.
Quote from: orfeo on December 15, 2015, 02:25:34 AM
Listened to the 4th symphony last night. Honestly, I think it's one of the most amazing things in music. All of the 'formal' boxes of a symphony are ticked, and yet the effect is this brooding, dark thing that just sounds unlike anything else.
I loved it from the moment I heard it, and I believe even Sibelius himself didn't feel the need to change any note. I feel that it's a true example of non-Viennese expressionist music, perhaps the only piece of the time which fits the same 'kind' of artistic expression as Schoenberg/Berg/Webern etc despite the hugely different aesthetic.
Quote from: orfeo on December 15, 2015, 02:25:34 AM
Listened to the 4th symphony last night. Honestly, I think it's one of the most amazing things in music. All of the 'formal' boxes of a symphony are ticked, and yet the effect is this brooding, dark thing that just sounds unlike anything else.
Yep, it's a masterwork and one of my favorites from good ol' Jean.
I'm really looking forward to digging into the two new Sibelius Edition sets I bought: Chamber Music I & II. I've heard very little of this side of his oeuvre, but what I have heard The Lizard and a Piano Quintet were quite good.
Quote from: orfeo on December 15, 2015, 02:25:34 AM
Listened to the 4th symphony last night. Honestly, I think it's one of the most amazing things in music. All of the 'formal' boxes of a symphony are ticked, and yet the effect is this brooding, dark thing that just sounds unlike anything else.
I think the 4th is one of the bleakest, most hopeless pieces of music ever written, but people who follow this thread probably know that already so I won't keep harping on it :P
Oh, I dunno . . . I really think the 'A' material cheerful, elfin, energetic:
http://www.youtube.com/v/USeUdeBb704
The last movement, too, seems to me joyful and quite unclouded:
http://www.youtube.com/v/t49T0ETYRAM
I think I listen to Sibelius through grim-coloured glasses because those two allegros are seriously disturbing from the beginning (let alone their respective descents into darkness of two very different kinds). I've never heard any "lightness" in the piece—only extreme clarity.
One thing that's interesting is how the formal symphony boxes are often only ticked in the most perfunctory fashion—the second movement is basically Scherzo-Trio with the return of the Scherzo consisting of the last four bars of the piece, the final movement is a Rondo whose A material completely disappears over the course of the piece leaving us with pretty much nothing but an A major chord and hanging D-sharp. The first movement is a totally by-the-book sonata form of course, but which has the effect of sounding like a free fantasy, I think because of how unusual the material is.
I have to agree with Karl: those two movements definitely have some joy, I would say even lightness, in them.
Quote from: amw on December 15, 2015, 11:39:45 AM
I think I listen to Sibelius through grim-coloured glasses because those two allegros are seriously disturbing from the beginning (let alone their respective descents into darkness of two very different kinds). I've never heard any "lightness" in the piece—only extreme clarity.
One thing that's interesting is how the formal symphony boxes are often only ticked in the most perfunctory fashion—the second movement is basically Scherzo-Trio with the return of the Scherzo consisting of the last four bars of the piece, the final movement is a Rondo whose A material completely disappears over the course of the piece leaving us with pretty much nothing but an A major chord and hanging D-sharp. The first movement is a totally by-the-book sonata form of course, but which has the effect of sounding like a free fantasy, I think because of how unusual the material is.
Quote from: Alberich on December 16, 2015, 03:20:05 AM
I have to agree with Karl: those two movements definitely have some joy, I would say even lightness, in them.
Thanks, both. It is really intriguing how differently we hear music.
I'm joining Team AMW here. If those movements have moments of lightness, their function is to attempt to fight off the gloom, but eventually fail.
To me, the 4th Symphony of Sibelius is as sunny as Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, when compared to Shostakovich's 4th. The beginning of Sibelius' 4th is indeed incredibly dark and gloomy, but I find that to dissipate more as the symphony goes on. I am with Karl in that the final movement has a fair amount of cheerful energy.
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 16, 2015, 04:36:10 AM
To me, the 4th Symphony of Sibelius is as sunny as Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, when compared to Shostakovich's 4th. The beginning of Sibelius' 4th is indeed incredibly dark and gloomy, but I find that to dissipate more as the symphony goes on. I am with Karl in that the final movement has a fair amount of cheerful energy.
And, the way I hear it, it succeeds where
Brian hears failure.
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2015, 04:31:21 AM
I'm joining Team AMW here. If those movements have moments of lightness, their function is to attempt to fight off the gloom, but eventually fail.
I don't hear them as
moments, but as the established
character of the movement, and it is the somewhat darker drama which is passingly episodic.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2015, 04:48:29 AM
And, the way I hear it, it succeeds where Brian hears failure.
I don't hear them as moments, but as the established character of the movement, and it is the somewhat darker drama which is passingly episodic.
Have you heard how the symphony ends??
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2015, 05:07:08 AM
Have you heard how the symphony ends??
A tragic collapse, grim and despairing, proving there was no permanent escape from the Symphony's bleak opening.
Sarge
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2015, 05:07:08 AM
Have you heard how the symphony ends??
Once or twice :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2015, 05:25:52 AM
A tragic collapse, grim and despairing, proving there was no permanent escape from the Symphony's bleak opening.
Sarge
I appreciate all you gents explaining your take, and I cannot really gainsay you. I'll suggest (without at all faulting your view!) that you hear it a bit more luridly than I do. The ending becomes more impassioned, unsettled, and then wistful. I don't hear
bleak there. (The opening of the
Sixth I hear as bleak, but agreeably, enchantingly so.) I agree in a musical sense that the ending is "a rounding"; the
Sarge's narrative reading is defensible and plausible, indeed
And, as ever, thanks for the engaging discussion, which enriches revisitation even of pieces long known to a body :)
Fascinating discussion, and I think a reminder of the greatness of the 4th (and the 6th); there are so many ways to interpret these works.
I think a lot of the points made about the 4th have applicability to the 6th; I find Rosbaud's interpretation of the 6th to be as disturbing as any I've heard of the 4th.
Now I need to find time to go back and revisit both.
Quote from: edward on December 16, 2015, 09:17:16 AM
Fascinating discussion, and I think a reminder of the greatness of the 4th (and the 6th); there are so many ways to interpret these works.
This (parenthetically) is part of why I think it a little wrong-headed to find fault with
Haitink's RVW cycle for being "insufficiently British." What if "British all the way" is
just one approach to the symphonies?
I think that Haitink's RVW cycle is one of the very best and it won me over to 'A Sea Symphony'. Am listening to Sibelius's 4th Symphony conducted by Beecham and the LPO; I do not know a better performance. In the new historical rarities set it appears on a CD with The Bard, extracts from both Tempest suites, extracts from Pelleas and Melisande and In Memoriam - a great disc. Am I right in thinking that Sibelius's Symphony 4 is about the only one to end on a note that is neither quiet nor loud?
[asin]B012PMZM4Y[/asin]
Quote from: edward on December 16, 2015, 09:17:16 AM
I think a lot of the points made about the 4th have applicability to the 6th
Possibly. The 4th and the 6th are very different. In particular the 4th is more of an out-and-out tragedy as I hear it, with the possibility of redemption (dangled before us at the end of the 1st movement) running in parallel with a deeply self-destructive course ending in utter alienation. (Yes Vandermolen I know of no other symphony that ends mezzo-forte.) A word that comes to mind to describe large stretches of the final movement is hubris, right on the edge of madness, though that movement (and the 1st) also have long stretches of that sort of extraordinarily static, windswept music Sibelius debuted in the development section of Symphony 3/i. But the 4th is a basically
human work where emotional states have consequences.
The 6th I would describe more as the listener being the last living creature on earth. There is beauty and joy and nostalgia, and also rage and passion and disappointment, and they're all utterly inconsequential—we never get any sense that the music of the opening 2 minutes
had to be interrupted and could in fact continue in the same vein for another 30 with no change in mood. That mood is primarily
emptiness, but not in a boring sort of way, if that makes sense. Like walking around a peaceful, silent landscape occasionally disrupted by the howling of winds, only you're constantly reminded that this peaceful, silent landscape was literally New York City before the plague came and killed everyone or whatever. The agonised chorale on the last page is sort of like crying out to God (or whoever) for an explanation, and receiving none, and wondering if maybe God is dead along with everything else. And then just moving on to wander through more of the beautiful dead world because what else can you even do? You know? Am I being too hermeneutic?
(The 6th also functions quite well as a depiction of clinical depression)
I wonder if maybe there are particular recordings that shaped people's views of these works as "light" vs. "heavy" or whatever, or if it was just how I was as a teenager. I have the Davis/BSO set of the Sibelius symphonies, but for the 4th I think the first recording I listened to was either Rattle/CBSO or Maazel/Vienna, and for the 6th possibly Sakari/Iceland? I don't remember tbh. They were library discs and I didn't bother to tag them with performer information.
I should never have thought, not in a hundred years, of applying the word "hubris" to any part of the symphony :-[
I believe the 4th to be the bleakest of Sibelius' symphonies, but it's not bleak to the point of suicidal tendencies. ;) There is some light channeling through that dark tunnel from time to time. I'm with Karl that the last movement doesn't sound really ominous, but that ending, as Brian and Sarge suggested, does leave many questions in one's mind.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2015, 01:40:37 PM
I should never have thought, not in a hundred years, of applying the word "hubris" to any part of the symphony :-[
In the sense of overly self-confident, yes, I agree with amw's use of hubris. That last movement of the Sibelius 4th reminds me of the last movement of Mahler 6: a headlong, optimistic rush into catastrophe; the last appearance of the bells comparable to the hammerblows in Mahler.
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 10:20:32 AM
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2778/4334649125_6ea7d62a33_z.jpg?zz=1) (http://www.aarography.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Finland-Scenic-Landscape-Nature-19.jpg)
Op. 63 Symphony no. 4 in A minor
1. Tempo molto moderato, quasi adagio, 2. Allegro molto vivace, 3. Il tempo largo, 4. Allegro. Completed in 1911; first performance in Helsinki on 3rd April 1911 (Orchestra of Helsinki Philharmonic Society under Jean Sibelius).
The fourth symphony was once considered to be the strangest of Sibelius's symphonies, but today it is regarded as one of the peaks of his output. It has a density of expression, a chamber music-like transparency and a mastery of counterpoint that make it one of the most impressive manifestations of modernity from the period when it was written.
Sibelius had thoughts of a change of style while he was in Berlin in 1909. These ideas were still in his mind when he joined the artist Eero Järnefelt for a trip to Koli, the emblematic "Finnish mountain" in Karelia, close to Joensuu. The landscape of Koli was for Järnefelt an endless source of inspiration, and Sibelius said that he was going to listen to the "sighing of the winds and the roar of the storms". Indeed, the composer regarded his visit to Koli as one of the greatest experiences of his life. "Plans. La Montagne," he wrote in his diary on 27th September 1909.
The following year Sibelius was again travelling in Karelia, in Vyborg and Imatra, now acting as a guide to his friend and sponsor Rosa Newmarch. Newmarch later recollected how Sibelius eagerly strained his ears to hear the pedal points in the roar of Imatra's famous rapids and in other natural sounds.
The trip also had other objectives. On his return Sibelius wanted to develop his skills in counterpoint, since, as he put it, "the harmony is largely dependent on the purely musical patterning, its polyphony." His observations contained many ideas on the need for harmonic continuity. Since the orchestra lacked the pedal of the piano, Sibelius wanted to compensate for this with even more skilful orchestration.
Yet one more natural phenomenon – a storm in the south-eastern archipelago – was needed to get the symphonic work started. In addition, in November 1910 he was preparing the symphony at the same time as he was working on music for Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven, which he had promised to Aino Ackté. The Raven was never finished, but its atmosphere and sketches had an effect on the fourth symphony.
The symphony was performed for the first time on 3rd April 1911, in Helsinki. Its tone was both modern and introspective, and it confused the audience so much that the applause was subdued. "Evasive glances, shakes of the head, embarrassed or secretly ironic smiles. Not many came to the dressing room to deliver their congratulations," Aino Sibelius recollected later. The critics, too, were at a loss. "Everything was so strange," was how Heikki Klemetti described the atmosphere. In the years that followed audiences in many parts of the world reacted the same way.
However, Sibelius remained happy with the symphony and after the first public performance he prepared it for publication. Nowadays, the fourth symphony has come to be recognised as one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century and one of Sibelius's most magnificent achievements. It was, after all, contemporary music of the utmost modernity, a work from which all traces of aesthetisation or artificiality had been eliminated.
A kind of motto for the work is the augmented fourth, or tritone, which creates tension in all the four movements of the symphony. The atmosphere of the work varies from joyfulness to austere expressionism. Every movement fades into silence. We are as far as we could be from the triumphant finales of the second and third symphonies.
Indeed, the fourth symphony often seems to shock listeners, and analysis of the work can turn into philosophising. It is as if Sibelius were directly penetrating the merciless core of life, laying it bare without offering any kind of false consolation. He himself had felt close to death a few years earlier, when a tumour had been removed from his throat in an operation.
[Article taken from Sibelius.fi]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite simply a masterpiece (of many) for Sibelius. The brooding, ominous clouds create an overcast in this enigmatic symphony. I remember the first time I heard it (Colin Davis/BSO) and I thought to myself "Okay, what the heck is this supposed to be or what is it trying to convey? Why is this music so gloomy?" It took me some time to fully appreciate the work. I think my 'breakthrough' with the work was HvK's excellent account (w/ the Berliners) on Deutsche Grammophon. From that time forward, it just started really sinking in for me. Of course, I now have many favorites besides HvK: Segerstam/Helsinki, Vanska/Lahti, Berglund/Helsinki, etc.
Please discuss your favorite performances and why this symphony is so enjoyable for you.
I just had to dig up this old post. It seemed like it was the appropriate occasion to do so. ;)
Quote from: Brian on December 16, 2015, 04:31:21 AM
I'm joining Team AMW here. If those movements have moments of lightness, their function is to attempt to fight off the gloom, but eventually fail.
Pretty much a view I'd subscribe to.
6th, despite it's minor key, never sounded to me sad (even that incredibly catchy theme in the last movement is just too much fun). Those shimmering strings in the first movement transport me into a world with extraordinary beauty. Kind of like Finnish version of the fairytale world Tchaikovsky creates with his ballets.
Quote from: Alberich on December 17, 2015, 06:12:21 AM
6th, despite it's minor key, never sounded to me bleak at all (even that incredibly catchy theme in the last movement is just too much fun for me to call it "bleak"). Those shimmering strings in the first movement transport me into a world with extraordinary beauty. Kind of like Finnish version of the fairytale world Tchaikovsky creates with his ballets.
This harmonizes with how I hear the symphony.
Glad to hear it, Karl. 8)
Quote from: Alberich on December 17, 2015, 06:12:21 AM
6th, despite it's minor key, never sounded to me sad (even that incredibly catchy theme in the last movement is just too much fun). Those shimmering strings in the first movement transport me into a world with extraordinary beauty. Kind of like Finnish version of the fairytale world Tchaikovsky creates with his ballets.
Our own interpretations of the 6th aside, let's remember what Sibelius said about it: "The sixth symphony always reminds me of the scent of the first snow" which was stated in 1943, then, in 1955, he said "Rage and passion ... are utterly essential in it, but it is supported by undercurrents deep under the surface of the music."
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2015, 03:55:06 PM
I just had to dig up this old post. It seemed like it was the appropriate occasion to do so. ;)
And I'm so happy you did dig up this post! Wonderful read and great article. :)
For a long time I was never much impressed by Sibelius's compositions. It was only when I was fifteen that I grew to enjoy the second symphony. The fourth became one of my favourite pieces of music ever right as I was listening to it for the first time. Perhaps it was because it sounded so different to anything else I had heard previously...who knows.
Excellent, Jessop! One's ears always get bigger . . . .
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on December 17, 2015, 11:37:10 PM
And I'm so happy you did dig up this post! Wonderful read and great article. :)
For a long time I was never much impressed by Sibelius's compositions. It was only when I was fifteen that I grew to enjoy the second symphony. The fourth became one of my favourite pieces of music ever right as I was listening to it for the first time. Perhaps it was because it sounded so different to anything else I had heard previously...who knows.
Glad my copy-and-paste skills are being appreciated. ;) ;D Yes, this is such an excellent symphony, but what would you say your 'Top 5 Favorite Works' from Sibelius are? Have dug deep into his oeuvre or have you just been swimming in the shallow end of the pool? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2015, 03:31:53 AM
Glad my copy-and-paste skills are being appreciated. ;) ;D Yes, this is such an excellent symphony, but what would you say your 'Top 5 Favorite Works' from Sibelius are? Have dug deep into his oeuvre or have you just been swimming in the shallow end of the pool? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
Well I've only known his music for a few years, but I've come to adore the 7th and 6th symphonies in particular as well as all the others. Other favourites include Kullervo, The Tempest (any version!) and Luonnotar...but I am also very fond of the Scènes Historiques and Scaramouche and Tapiola as well. One piece I can certainly live without is that extraordinarily bland piano sonata in F major (I forgive him if he happened to be drunk at the time though).
Interestingly, I listened to only one Sibelius's composition on his birthday: Luonnotar. It never ceases to amaze me.
A Survey of Sibelius Cycles
updated -- and in the process of a much more thorough updating.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
To that end, if anyone could provide the following date:
Earliest and last recording dates (of the symphonies, not other works that may be included on one set or another) of:
Blomstedt / SFSO / Decca (1989-94?)
Jaervi I / Goetheburg / BIS (1982-85?)
Jaervi II / G'burg / DG (2001-05?)
Leaper / Slovak PO / Naxos (1989-90)
Inkinnen I / Naxos
Inkinnen II (???)
Gibson / Chandos
Lintu / ArtHaus Musik
Storgards
Watanabe I & II
Volmer
You might want to correct Wanatabe to Watanabe. :)
Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2016, 02:00:47 AM
Earliest and last recording dates (of the symphonies, not other works that may be included on one set or another) of:
Blomstedt / SFSO / Decca (1989-95)
Jaervi I / Goetheburg / BIS (1982-85)
Quote from: North Star on January 13, 2016, 02:29:52 AM
You might want to correct Wanatabe to Watanabe. :)
While I'm at it. :D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 02:54:59 AM
Blomstedt / SFSO / Decca (1989-95)
Jaervi I / Goetheburg / BIS (1982-85)
Thanks!!!
Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2016, 02:00:47 AM
Inkinen I / Naxos (2008-2009)
Inkinen II / Naxos Japan (March-April 2013)
Storgards (2012-2013)
There ya go!
P.S. Inkinen not Inkinnen.
Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
Thanks!! Esp. Inkinen II had me baffled for a while.
Klaus must have gotten good money to record a complete Japanese Sib-Cycle with Inkinen... but just not quite enough to make it an international release. :-)
Now I think I am only missing exact dates on Volmer's cycle (ABC) -- which was recorded around 2007. Aussies here who know?
These all have booklets posted on Naxos Music Library (and many on eClassical). Volmer is 2007-2008.
Volmer was definitely released in 2010, don't know about exact recording dates. My Australian-based Google-fu appears to be insufficient for that purpose.
EDIT: AHA! I got lucky!
All the symphonies were recorded in 2007 and 2008. The Violin Concerto which is also in the set wasn't until 2009.
UpdatedA Survey of Sibelius Cycles(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
Dates added and properly alphabetized. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
QuoteThis survey, the first I wrote for ionarts, has been completely revamped and been put into an order, namely alphabetical, by conductor. This can be cumbersome when updating, but it is the easiest to search. Initially, only readily available cycles were meant to be included in these surveys, but they have grown a little more ambitious, since. This brings about the addition of Jukka-Pekka Saraste's first cycle on RCA (1987-88), which is very much oop. Saraste's second cycle was recorded live in St. Petersburg. The individual releases on Warner-Teldec-Apex and Finlandia (the latter covers almost all the smaller orchestral works as well as the Violin Concerto and the Humoresques by other conductors and orchestras) are identical to the set that proclaims "live from St. Petersburg" (1993). It also means that I have included the first cycle of Akeo Watanabe, from 1962 (the first in stereo, pace Leonard Bernstein), even though it never made it from its Sony/Epic LPs onto CD. I have not (yet?) added Paavo Berglund's Sibelius recordings with the LPO, although arguably they are as much an incomplete cycle as Bernstein's Vienna one, with four symphonies. You can find it here; it would have been his 4th such cycle.
I haven't read all 116 pages of this thread ???, so I don't know if this disc has ever been mentioned:
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/moPKeVY2QzZf6-dW4mGkruw.jpg)
Recommended by Drasko, it contains the 3rd symphony under Mrawinsky in 2 versions. Actually they are one and the same, except for the remastering. The first is a regular mono, hissy and ungimmicked recording, whereas the second is in 'processed stereo'. Hiss has been removed and the sound still seems quite natural to me. In any event, this must count as one of the most extraordinary interpretations of any Sibelius symphony ever recorded.
I didn't recommend it in the 'Recordings You Are Considering' thread, as it seems to be either impossible to find or sold at a mortgage kind of price. If you can lay your hands on it don't hesitate. You only get the symphony, but it's really worth it. This is Sibelius' most cryptic, unscrutable symphony, his most rythmically alert too. Very hard to get right. Most other interpretations downplay the ruggedness and the ultra-modernity of the score in an attempt to 'unify' the symphony. Mrawinsky transforms it into something like 'Three Pieces for Orchestra' or a 'Symphony in Three Movements' on a giant scale.
The Minnesota Orchestra's all-Sibelius concert at Carnegie Hall (March 3), with Osmo Vänskä and violinist Hilary Hahn, is on WQXR.org - a terrific concert, for those who like live broadcasts.
Sibelius: Symphony No. 3
Sibelius: Violin Concerto
Sibelius: Symphony No. 1
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/hilary-hahn-and-minnesota-play-sibelius/
--Bruce
Am greatly enjoying this - have I missed the discussion about it?
[asin]B011QAHAGE[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2016, 12:33:12 PM
Am greatly enjoying this - have I missed the discussion about it?
[asin]B011QAHAGE[/asin]
Jedermann (Everyman) is one those odd Sibelius works that hasn't really found it's way into listeners' psyches yet or so it seems. Personally, I really like the work. It's kind of strangely lopsided work (strange overall structure), but there's really some gorgeous music found therein. I haven't heard the Segerstam performance (yet), but I love what Vanska did with it on BIS.
Seems appropriate to note the existence of this book
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411zJIgrlXL.jpg)
Speaking of Kullervo, I need to revisit this work. I own several fantastic performances of it, but I think my favorite is Vanska's on BIS with Neeme Jarvi's smoldering performance (also on BIS) coming in a distant second.
The things you learn when you're a completist trivia-head...
Complete symphonies are a dime a dozen, but I became curious whether anyone had ever aimed for a complete set of the orchestral music more generally. And the answer turns out to be yes: Neeme Jarvi did on BIS.
Only it never got fully presented as such. The first 13 LPs exist, labelled as "Volume 1", "Volume 2" etc at the top. But it seems when the CDs came out they were never labelled in this way, and the last half a dozen albums were apparently only released on CD. (Weirdly, it seems the volume of orchestral songs was deliberately excluded from the list, even though it includes not just orchestrations of piano songs but also uniquely orchestral works like Luonnotar. Whereas volume 13 also has vocal works).
There were other factors, too. Right near the end of the series, BIS decided to change from "complete Orchestral music" to "complete Sibelius", and Jarvi's orchestral work was swept up in this numbering system, retrospectively applied to 29 existing albums including most of his. And at the same time, Vanska started his recordings and was covering the same territory, pushing Jarvi's recordings into the background.
Come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if Vanska recorded "complete orchestral music" as well, but it was never labelled in this way.
All of this is because I'm increasingly aware how much other orchestral music there is besides the symphonies. And, as I've previously said, I'm not really that keen on the BIS jumbo Sibelius edition that insists on including every version and arrangement known to mankind.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 30, 2016, 07:53:09 PM
Speaking of Kullervo, I need to revisit this work. I own several fantastic performances of it, but I think my favorite is Vanska's on BIS with Neeme Jarvi's smoldering performance (also on BIS) coming in a distant second.
I like the earlier Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth SO version on EMI.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2016, 06:58:53 AM
I like the earlier Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth SO version on EMI.
I don't believe I've heard this performance, Jeffrey. I do like Berglund's Helsinki remake, though, but it's been years since I've heard it.
I arrived in Finland last night, usually when I am outside the city I hear Sibelius in my head. Nothing Sibelian about the hotel room in Helsinki; but later I am going east to Imatra then south on the huge lake that borders Russia; so the head music will come.
Mike
Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2016, 03:02:29 AM
Pään musiikki?
'Päämusiikki' perhaps, or better yet, 'päänsisäinen musiikki'.
Thanks for the corrigendum! I've never really studied Finnish grammar, and whatever Estonian grammar I imperfectly remember cannot really serve 8)
Pään musiikki is not exactly wrong, it's just not very idiomatic - think how there's table music, not music of the tables - and music of the spheres, not spheres' music.
Quote from: North Star on July 07, 2016, 03:58:23 AM
Pään musiikki is not exactly wrong, it's just not very idiomatic - think how there's table music, not music of the tables - and music of the spheres, not spheres' music.
I appreciate the clarification,
Karlo!
Quote from: knight66 on July 06, 2016, 09:56:09 PM
I arrived in Finland last night, usually when I am outside the city I hear Sibelius in my head. Nothing Sibelian about the hotel room in Helsinki; but later I am going east to Imatra then south on the huge lake that borders Russia; so the head music will come.
Mike
The opening of Sibelius's Symphony No.2 came into my head and that of my brother's when we arrived at my Finnish friends lake side summer cottage in 2013.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2016, 10:45:35 PM
The opening of Sibelius's Symphony No.2 came into my head and that of my brother's when we arrived at my Finnish friends lake side summer cottage in 2013.
That made me laugh aloud and recollect an interview for a job in North Carolina I had. I was doing well enough, I thought, but on a tour of the countryside my prospective boss was giving me he pointed up into the mountains impressed with his own landscape. I said, "Yes, they remind me a lot of Sibelius' Symphony #2." I had struck a chord and from that point on, I could do no wrong.
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 18, 2016, 07:14:06 AM
That made me laugh aloud and recollect an interview for a job in North Carolina I had. I was doing well enough, I thought, but on a tour of the countryside my prospective boss was giving me he pointed up into the mountains impressed with his own landscape. I said, "Yes, they remind me a lot of Sibelius' Symphony #2." I had struck a chord and from that point on, I could do no wrong.
:)
Read Sibelius: The Worst Composer in the World (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26113.0.html) by Rene Leibowitz!
Quote from: Brian on August 18, 2016, 03:21:54 PM
Read Sibelius: The Worst Composer in the World (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26113.0.html) by Rene Leibowitz!
ha, there is pretty much an entire chapter in 'The Rest is Noise' by Alex Ross which is devoted to Sibelius...Leibowitz and Virgil Thomson are both mentioned.
Quote from: Brian on August 18, 2016, 03:21:54 PM
Read Sibelius: The Worst Composer in the World (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26113.0.html) by Rene Leibowitz!
::) Certainly I've got better things to do then read a musical nobody like Rene Leibowitz trash one of my favorite composers and a composer who continues to thrive in my heart and mind.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 18, 2016, 06:57:04 PM
::) Certainly I've got better things to do then read a musical nobody like Rene Leibowitz trash one of my favorite composers and a composer who continues to thrive in my heart and mind.
C'mon,
Mirror, join the antibodies who are rushing to our master's open, gaping wound to heal and renew!
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 19, 2016, 06:03:55 AM
C'mon, Mirror, join the antibodies who are rushing to our master's open, gaping wound to heal and renew!
(http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/KzEGIZ2e7aQGxZ6Oyf57XwxKLYI=/fit-in/850x850/2014%2F06%2F26%2Fbd%2Fbilllumberg.fa9ee.gif)
Leibowitz, like Stravinsky, Boulez and other 20th century luminaries, was very trenchant and often one-sided in his musical opinions. Open-mindedness was tantamount to stupidity in many artistic circles. But he was not a nobody. Ironically, his claim to fame is surely his Beethoven symphonies integral cycle !
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on August 19, 2016, 06:03:55 AM
C'mon, Mirror, join the antibodies who are rushing to our master's open, gaping wound to heal and renew!
No commentary intended on Mirror Image, Leibowitz, Sibelius, or anyone else, but this did make me laugh. 8)
--Bruce
I'm reading The Correspondence of Jean Sibelius and Rosa Newmarch, 1906-1939 Edited by Philip Ross Bullock.
My favourite quote in a letter of the 18 May 1914, Sibelius wrote "I really roared with laughter over criticism of my symphonies."
I've been sucked into looking at the Sibelius Edition again, in many cases just to confirm that it's not what I want, but the "Voice and Orchestra" volume is the one that keeps holding my interest.
[asin]B000YGIHIW[/asin]
For a lot of this repertoire there isn't a lot of competition anyway, but I thought I would ask about the competition in this way:
1. How does this version of Kullervo (Vanska, Lahti SO) compare? It's one of the few works where there are many other options. I've seen some positive reviews.
2. Similarly how does this Luonnotar compare, and the orchestral songs (largely taken from an album conducted by Panula, where again I've seen a positive review).
3. Is anyone familiar with the recordings by Paavo Jarvi of various cantatas/choral works and the opera? That really is the only remotely equivalent set of recordings, although not as comprehensive.
I was fortunate to turn on the radio this morning as I was cooking my porridge (am sure you wanted to know that) just in time to hear BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' on Sibelius's 'Tapiola' which is my favourite work by the composer. If you have access to the BBC Radio 3 'Record Review' website you can read the details there or download the programme in the UK I guess. They liked the Sarasate recording but here is the No.1 choice:
[asin]B00000378L[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 02:15:13 AM
I was fortunate to turn on the radio this morning as I was cooking my porridge (am sure you wanted to know that) just in time to hear BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' on Sibelius's 'Tapiola' which is my favourite work by the composer. If you have access to the BBC Radio 3 'Record Review' website you can read the details there or download the programme in the UK I guess. They liked the Sarasate recording but here is the No.1 choice:
Pablo recorded it? Or do you perhaps mean
Jukka-Pekka Saraste? ;)
It's one of my favourite works too, my preferred recordings are by
Berglund & Helsinki Philharmonic and
Vänskä & Sinfonia Lahti - both keep the tempi close to the composer's wishes (and to
Kajanus's recording), at a bit under 18 minutes.
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2017, 02:30:28 AM
Pablo recorded it? Or do you perhaps mean Jukka-Pekka Saraste? ;)
It's one of my favourite works too, my preferred recordings are by Berglund & Helsinki Philharmonic and Vänskä & Sinfonia Lahti - both keep the tempi close to the composer's wishes (and to Kajanus's recording), at a bit under 18 minutes.
I think it was Jukka-Pekka but will check later. They liked Kajanus, Beecham and Berglund too - can't remember which versions. I like Gibson but wasn't mentioned.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 03:33:03 AM
I think it was Jukka-Pekka but will check later.
I'm sure it's this one.
[asin]B003YI3CT6[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 02:15:13 AM
I was fortunate to turn on the radio this morning as I was cooking my porridge (am sure you wanted to know that) just in time to hear BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' on Sibelius's 'Tapiola' which is my favourite work by the composer. If you have access to the BBC Radio 3 'Record Review' website you can read the details there or download the programme in the UK I guess. They liked the Sarasate recording but here is the No.1 choice:
[asin]B00000378L[/asin]
Segerstam, Vanska, and Berglund are my dudes when it comes to Sibelius. I have yet to find anyone that matches them in terms of interpretation and overall understanding of the composer.
I worry though, that one day he will trip over his beard.
(http://www.kcstudio.com/seg11.jpg)
Quote from: North Star on January 28, 2017, 03:51:16 AM
I'm sure it's this one.
[asin]B003YI3CT6[/asin]
That is an excellent CD.
I feel a need to talk about the 6th symphony. No, about the context of the 6th symphony.
I have a sense of revelation from an exercise I've been carrying out, listening to Sibelius' orchestral works chronologically and in particular using the fairly extensive information about premiere performances on the sibelius.fi website.
Because the works that come just before/with the 6th symphony are some of Sibelius' lightest, most delicate works. Here's the stuff I'm talking about.
1. Autrefois, op.96b - premiere was in 1919, included in the concert when the symphony premiered.
2. Valse Lyrique, op.96a - originally for piano, orchestral version premiered in 1922
3. Suite Mignonne, op.98a - premiered in 1922 with the valse.
4. Valse Chevaleresque, op.96c - originally for piano, orchestral version premiered with the symphony in 1923
5. Suite Champetre, op.98b - premiered with the symphony
6. Suite Caracteristique, op.100 - premiered with the symphony
So these are the sorts of textures Sibelius is already working with. Somehow, knowing that just makes more sense for me of where the 6th symphony comes from. It's a deeper work musically than any of these, but in terms of the scoring it's not far away from these suites.
Quote from: aukhawk on January 28, 2017, 09:52:41 AM
I worry though, that one day he will trip over his beard.
(http://www.kcstudio.com/seg11.jpg)
Not with THAT toolshed ;)
Look at the size of those wrists!!!!!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 17, 2017, 09:05:41 AM
Not with THAT toolshed ;)
Look at the size of those wrists!!!!!
Wrist or not I am not a fan of him either as a composer or conductor - a mediocre Sibelius cycle, a ghastly ponderous and bloated Mahler cycle that puts new meaning in conducting against the score...
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 17, 2017, 09:13:56 AM
Wrist or not I am not a fan of him either as a composer or conductor - a mediocre Sibelius cycle, a ghastly ponderous and bloated Mahler cycle that puts new meaning in conducting against the score...
To the bolded text:
Umm...please. ::) I LOVED Segerstam's Helsinki cycle on Ondine and not to mention all those fantastic recordings he did of other Sibelius works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2017, 09:38:56 AM
To the bolded text:
Umm...please. ::) I LOVED Segerstam's Helsinki cycle on Ondine and not to mention all those fantastic recordings he did of other Sibelius works.
Me too - I love both his recordings of Tapiola, the Four Legends and Symphony 3. I like many of the less favoured Danish RSO recordings as well as the Helsinki ones and I love his Chandos recording of Norgard Symphony 1, in fact I like it more than the very highly regarded BIS version.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 17, 2017, 11:24:39 AM
Me too - I love both his recordings of Tapiola, the Four Legends and Symphony 3. I like many of the less favoured Danish RSO recordings as well as the Helsinki ones and I love his Chandos recording of Norgard Symphony 1, in fact I like it more than the very highly regarded BIS version.
Yes, indeed. Segerstam also recorded the best Pettersson 7th I know.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2017, 11:50:56 AM
Yes, indeed. Segerstam also recorded the best Pettersson 7th I know.
I like it together with the Dorati, which was my first contact with Pettersson in the LP era.
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1521390/a/sibelius,+prokofieff%3A+violin+concertos+%2F+bruno+zwickler.htm | http://www.allmusic.com/album/sibelius-prokofiev-violin-concertos-mw0001846472
Carlo Pantelli and Henry Adolph are fake, as is the Philharmonica Slavonica, and Bruno Zwicker was neither a violinist nor alive in the digital recording era due to being killed in the Holocaust.
Who actually made these recordings? I gotta know so I can tag them correctly and also because I kind of like them to be honest.
(Here they are on Spotify for people who wanna listen: https://open.spotify.com/album/49K1tU9H6dT4iHpy8HInA6, tracks 8-13. Orchestra is credited as the RSO Vienna which actually does exist, but I'm not sure if Helena Spitkova is real either.)
There is a webpage that cleared up some identities of the cheapo recordings distributed with fake names:
http://www.soundfountain.com/allegro-royale/contents.html
Wrong pirate labels though—this one appeared on Vienna Masters/Pilz/Point Classics/etc rather than RCA/Royale/etc. Alfred Scholz stuff.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 28, 2017, 02:15:13 AM
I was fortunate to turn on the radio this morning as I was cooking my porridge (am sure you wanted to know that) just in time to hear BBC Radio 3's 'Building a Library' on Sibelius's 'Tapiola' which is my favourite work by the composer. If you have access to the BBC Radio 3 'Record Review' website you can read the details there or download the programme in the UK I guess. They liked the Sarasate recording but here is the No.1 choice:
[asin]B00000378L[/asin]
An interesting post! Do you make your porridge with water or milk?!! ;D
I'm compiling a list of records which influenced me c 15-18 years of age. One was a recording of Sibelius's 6th conducted by Kurt Masur with the Vienna Philharmonic. It was an LP from the late 70s early 80s and had a picture of a lake on the cover. I can't seen to find an image of it to find out what record label it was. Does anyone know?
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 06, 2017, 10:59:03 PM
I'm compiling a list of records which influenced me c 15-18 years of age. One was a recording of Sibelius's 6th conducted by Kurt Masur with the Vienna Philharmonic. It was an LP from the late 70s early 80s and had a picture of a lake on the cover. I can't seen to find an image of it to find out what record label it was. Does anyone know?
Wasn´t it perhaps Maazel´s on Decca?
https://www.google.dk/search?rlz=1C1AWFC_enDK752DK752&biw=2049&bih=993&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=maazel+sibelius+6+VPO+lp&oq=maazel+sibelius+6+VPO+lp&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3369.4102.0.4386.3.3.0.0.0.0.108.108.0j1.1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0.6PSulhaJ8VY
Yes it was, thanks.
Amusing how pictures of lakes seem to be pretty much standard on recordings of Sibelius!
Finland, as I was told back in my Danish school, The Land of a Thousand Lakes, so an easy option ... 8)
The question is how much do these cover images condition our response to the music.
I know Sibelius frankly stated that he was strongly influenced by the natural beauty and grandeur that surrounded his home - so this is 'nature music', no question about that really - - but I prefer to listen to music as an abstract thing, and as one who likes Sibelius' late symphonies a lot I am often a bit annoyed when I can't get these images out of my head ...
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2017, 12:48:37 AM
Amusing how pictures of lakes seem to be pretty much standard on recordings of Sibelius!
Aye.
I have nothing against those landscape pictures, having grown increasingly fond of the Nordic wilderness & cultural traditions with age. Of course, Nature was of extreme importance, as a means of communicating artistic messages, in his days.
Sibelius himself was indeed quite photogenic, as regards an expressive, physical presence, but showing portraits of him can get tiresome as well. And conductor´s portraits on record covers are certainly much too plentiful as well.
Btw, the relatively old Philips series of the symphonies conducted by Colin Davis probably represented an attempt to renew the visual imagery, by presenting Edvard Munch pictures, where the human figures and their moods have more importance:
https://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&biw=2049&bih=993&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=sibelius+lp+philips+davis&oq=sibelius+lp+philips+davis&gs_l=psy-ab.3...132866.134251.0.134514.6.6.0.0.0.0.126.568.0j5.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.eupnWRzymIo
Ah yes - interesting, those.
Quote from: aukhawk on August 07, 2017, 03:29:06 AM
The question is how much do these cover images condition our response to the music.
I know Sibelius frankly stated that he was strongly influenced by the natural beauty and grandeur that surrounded his home - so this is 'nature music', no question about that really - - but I prefer to listen to music as an abstract thing, and as one who likes Sibelius' late symphonies a lot I am often a bit annoyed when I can't get these images out of my head ...
Music is not, and cannot be, "an abstract thing" because music is created, performed, and listened to, by human beings --- and as such, there are no less than three inescapable levels of bringing in a heavy cultural, psychological and ideological baggage. Just saying (for the umpteenth time :) )
Does this make you think of Sibelius?
(https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000D3gYDic8Ke0/fit=1000x750/Los-Angeles-Cityscape-SB-Tower-3.jpg)
or does this make you think of John Adam's City Noir?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/JEAN_LOUIS_TH%C3%89ODORE_G%C3%89RICAULT_-_La_Balsa_de_la_Medusa_%28Museo_del_Louvre%2C_1818-19%29.jpg/1200px-JEAN_LOUIS_TH%C3%89ODORE_G%C3%89RICAULT_-_La_Balsa_de_la_Medusa_%28Museo_del_Louvre%2C_1818-19%29.jpg)
Actually I once put on Sibelius' Seventh Symphony in the car while driving on an expressway through central Dallas very very late at night - after midnight - when the traffic was gone and the city was a stark monumental landscape. And you know what? It was freaking perfect. One of the best Sibelius listening experiences I've ever had. Something about the cool aloofness of a huge metropolis at night pairs perfectly with his music. Try it some time!
You're on! Excellent suggestion.
Quote from: Brian on August 08, 2017, 07:28:09 AM
Actually I once put on Sibelius' Seventh Symphony in the car while driving on an expressway through central Dallas very very late at night - after midnight - when the traffic was gone and the city was a stark monumental landscape. And you know what? It was freaking perfect. One of the best Sibelius listening experiences I've ever had. Something about the cool aloofness of a huge metropolis at night pairs perfectly with his music. Try it some time!
I shall try it in eleven days (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg1080964.html#msg1080964) 8)
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_SIBELIUS_Dautricourt_Humoresques_La-Dolce-Volta_Laurson_960jpg.jpg?width=960)
Classical CD Of The Week: Hidden Sibelius Gems
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-hidden-sibelius-gems/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-hidden-sibelius-gems/)
Yay. I have that one, I chose it precisely because it collected a group of interesting works that usually get buried.
Great new performance of Tapiola and En Saga. Tapiola sounds slower than usual to me at the start, is beautifully recorded and is as moving a performance as I have ever heard. Haven't got round to the orchestrated songs yet:
[asin]B074YJSLDD[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2017, 02:20:36 AM
Great new performance of Tapiola and En Saga. Tapiola sounds slower than usual to me at the start, is beautifully recorded and is as moving a performance as I have ever heard. Haven't got round to the orchestrated songs yet:
That sounded alarming but I see the track length is just a bit over 18 minutes, so while it's slower than Berglund or Vänskä, it's certainly not dragging too much.
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2017, 02:36:29 AM
That sounded alarming but I see the track length is just a bit over 18 minutes, so while it's slower than Berglund or Vänskä, it's certainly not dragging too much.
No, it doesn't drag at all - just a matter of emphasis in my favourite section a couple of minutes in. I expect that it may have been here that the British composer Arnold Bax was described as listening with tears streaming down his face. It is especially, in my view, poignant in this performance.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 17, 2017, 02:20:36 AM
Great new performance of Tapiola and En Saga. Tapiola sounds slower than usual to me at the start, is beautifully recorded and is as moving a performance as I have ever heard. Haven't got round to the orchestrated songs yet:
[asin]B074YJSLDD[/asin]
I thought this was a fabulous release. Very fine interpretations in a gorgeous recording. Full of atmosphere and mythology. Highly recommended.
In all honesty I don't need another Tapiola or En Saga, but it just so happens that they are my 2 favourite orchestral works of Sibelius (ex-symphonies), AND that I have never heard any of the songs. So that would be a nifty purchase for me, especially considering the very favourable comments I'm reading here... ::)
Quote from: André on October 18, 2017, 05:52:49 PM
In all honesty I don't need another Tapiola or En Saga, but it just so happens that they are my 2 favourite orchestral works of Sibelius (ex-symphonies), AND that I have never heard any of the songs. So that would be a nifty purchase for me, especially considering the very favourable comments I'm reading here... ::)
The songs are awesome. See my OP. :)
Happy 152th birthday to Janne too ;)
Have people watched the Star Wars film, the Last Jedi? In the opening battle the actor who plays the captain of the First Force dreadnought (which is destroyed by the Rebels) is a dead ringer for Sibelius... though he is on the Dark Side.
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread -
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2018, 06:22:54 AM
Just bought:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61YW5%2Bq2sRL.jpg)
I definitely bought this recording for the SQ, "Voces Intimae" as I only had one other recording of it. A masterwork IMHO.
Has anyone heard this recording? The Gabrieli's take the slow movement (
Adagio di molto) of
Voces Intimae the slowest I've seen at 11 minutes. It'll be neat to do a program of the 3rd and 4th symphonies with
Voces Intimae since it came in the middle of these two works.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2018, 06:52:49 AMIt'll be neat to do a program of the 4th symphony with Voces Intimae since they were written around the same time.
That would be interesting. Put Luonnotar on there as well to complete a fine triptych of the introverted side of Sibelius.
I have the Oslo SQ on cpo with 11'25 and the Tempera Quartet on BIS with 10'51, so 11 min does not seem unusual.
Quote from: Mahlerian on January 11, 2018, 06:56:03 AM
That would be interesting. Put Luonnotar on there as well to complete a fine triptych of the introverted side of Sibelius.
Actually, I was mistaken.
Voces Intimae was written between the 3rd and 4th symphonies. I made the correction in my original post. Yes,
Luonnotar would make an interesting coupling, but this work didn't come until two years after the 4th symphony. I'd rather do a program of works that were composed around the same time. If anything,
The Dryad would make a better coupling since it was written in 1910.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 11, 2018, 06:58:39 AM
I have the Oslo SQ on cpo with 11'25 and the Tempera Quartet on BIS with 10'51, so 11 min does not seem unusual.
Ah okay, well this is good then. I see the Emersons take 8 minutes (w/ some seconds) to perform this slow movement.
Coincidentally have recently ordered three second hand Sibelius CDs - two of the Lemminkainen Legends (Salonen and Ormandy) and Sir Alexander Gibson's Tone poems on Chandos. I like your appropriately themed new avatar John.
:)
Hi Jeffrey ! Did you go for the first or second Ormandy recording ? I love that work to pieces. This was my very first Sibelius lp:
(https://img.discogs.com/iHd9t7edjKwy2fVQYLwoqi4QLos=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6480788-1420270410-4213.jpeg.jpg)
I wonder if it would stand up to scrutiny after all these years... ::)
Quote from: André on January 11, 2018, 12:17:54 PM
Hi Jeffrey ! Did you go for the first or second Ormandy recording ? I love that work to pieces. This was my very first Sibelius lp:
(https://img.discogs.com/iHd9t7edjKwy2fVQYLwoqi4QLos=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6480788-1420270410-4213.jpeg.jpg)
I wonder if it would stand up to scrutiny after all these years... ::)
This one
Andre[asin]B000PGTHRG[/asin]
Both are excellent, the earlier one more than that, but in (very fine) mono sound. Ormandy also recorded symphonies 4 and 5 in the mid-fifties, both truly fantastic recordings. Sony owns the rights to all these, but won't release them :( .
Quote from: André on January 11, 2018, 01:04:57 PM
Both are excellent, the earlier one more than that, but in (very fine) mono sound. Ormandy also recorded symphonies 4 and 5 in the mid-fifties, both truly fantastic recordings. Sony owns the rights to all these, but won't release them :( .
Yes, I've been reading about that
Andre.
I'm curious to hear his 'Tapiola' and was tempted to buy the Sony box with multiple copies of Finlandia and the early symphonies but no version of 3 and 6 which were never apparently recorded by Ormandy but which are amongst my favourites. Annoying they also excluded either version of Lemminkainen Legends from the box as well. >:(
Quote from: vandermolen on January 11, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
Coincidentally have recently ordered three second hand Sibelius CDs - two of the Lemminkainen Legends (Salonen and Ormandy) and Sir Alexander Gibson's Tone poems on Chandos. I like your appropriately themed new avatar John.
:)
Thanks, Jeffrey. 8) I like the Gibson set of the tone poems. I take it you went with the remastered 2-CD set? I'm not sure if I've heard any of Ormandy's Sibelius even though I do have some of his performances (on RCA). I'd say my favorite
Lemminkäinen Suite is with Segerstam/Helsinki PO on Ondine (coupled with a tremendous
Tapiola). Segerstam brings this strong, elemental approach to the music that I have yet to hear in any other performance. I can't say I appreciate any of Salonen's Sibelius recordings with the one exception being his recording of the VC with Hilary Hahn. He is on fire in that performance!
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2018, 04:32:46 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. 8) I like the Gibson set of the tone poems. I take it you went with the remastered 2-CD set? I'm not sure if I've heard any of Ormandy's Sibelius even though I do have some of his performances (on RCA). I'd say my favorite Lemminkäinen Suite is with Segerstam/Helsinki PO on Ondine (coupled with a tremendous Tapiola). Segerstam brings this strong, elemental approach to the music that I have yet to hear in any other performance. I can't say I appreciate any of Salonen's Sibelius recordings with the one exception being his recording of the VC with Hilary Hahn. He is on fire in that performance!
I read a v good review of the Salonen but we will see John! I've always found Ormandy rather underrated and liked his Shostakovich 4th and 10th symphonies. I already have that great Gibson double set but I bought the original single CD issue as I wanted one for the car. I know it's nuts. ::)
Quote from: vandermolen on January 11, 2018, 10:31:11 PM
I read a v good review of the Salonen but we will see John! I've always found Ormandy rather underrated and liked his Shostakovich 4th and 10th symphonies. I already have that great Gibson double set but I bought the original single CD issue as I wanted one for the car. I know it's nuts. ::)
Not nuts at all, Jeffrey! But, then again, I may not be the best judge in these matters. ;) Sometimes if I really like a set (or single issue recording), I'll see if I can find the original release even if I bought a reissue as, sometimes, there are couplings on the original releases that don't make it to the reissues. Naxos, for example, are quite known to do this.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2018, 05:53:46 AM
Not nuts at all, Jeffrey! But, then again, I may not be the best judge in these matters. ;) Sometimes if I really like a set (or single issue recording), I'll see if I can find the original release even if I bought a reissue as, sometimes, there are couplings on the original releases that don't make it to the reissues. Naxos, for example, are quite known to do this.
Thank you John - I can very much relate to this. I also like the cover image on the earlier Chandos single CD release!
;)
[asin]B000000A83[/asin]
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2018, 06:01:08 AM
Thank you John - I can very much relate to this. I also like the cover image on the earlier Chandos single CD release!
;)
[asin]B000000A83[/asin]
Yeah, the original cover was quite appropriate I think.
The original 2-CD set:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51d0GGuk8dL.jpg)
I already have the complete symphonies and Lemminkainen Suite from Gibson. I have just bought the Tone Poems etc from Chandos as lossless downloads. Many thanks to vandermolen and Mirror Image for the info.
Quote from: Biffo on January 12, 2018, 08:07:26 AM
I already have the complete symphonies and Lemminkainen Suite from Gibson. I have just bought the Tone Poems etc from Chandos as lossless downloads. Many thanks to vandermolen and Mirror Image for the info.
Well, I'm sure you'll enjoy them. Gibson was a fine sibelian and there is a freshness about his performances which is appealing.
I am not a huge "Sibelian" and far from a completist but I want to close a few gaps among the Tone Poems, Incidental music etc.
Which ones are more important and which recordings are recommended?
Apart from the question which of these pieces are worth getting I am also quite confused by apparently differing versions of these suites/incidental music selections: Often they are purely instrumental but some, e.g. Segerstam's series on Naxos also includes a few songs or vocal pieces. Should this be a factor when deciding?
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 10:47:45 AM
I am not a huge "Sibelian" and far from a completist but I want to close a few gaps among the Tone Poems, Incidental music etc.
Which ones are more important and which recordings are recommended?
I remain a huge fan of this disc:
[asin]B00000DMKY[/asin]
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 19, 2018, 10:49:18 AM
I remain a huge fan of this disc:
[asin]B00000DMKY[/asin]
I agree with
Karlthat is a great disc and a great programme. This morning the BBC played 'The Oceanides' which, together with Tapiola are my favourite works by Sibelius. I'm not a great fan of Simon Rattle but I think that he is a fine sibelian.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 10:47:45 AM
I am not a huge "Sibelian" and far from a completist but I want to close a few gaps among the Tone Poems, Incidental music etc.
Which ones are more important and which recordings are recommended?
Apart from the question which of these pieces are worth getting I am also quite confused by apparently differing versions of these suites/incidental music selections: Often they are purely instrumental but some, e.g. Segerstam's series on Naxos also includes a few songs or vocal pieces. Should this be a factor when deciding?
Which works are you missing out of the tone poems (http://bis.se/composer/sibelius-jean/the-sibelius-edition-vol1-tone-poems)?
As for the incidental music,
The Tempest is easily the most important
Sibelius work in that genre. I don't know the
Segerstam disc as I only have
Vänskä's complete recording (and
Järvi's suites). I prefer the complete thing, but the suites are good too and contain much of the music.
[asin]B000027E3T[/asin]
I (think) I am missing Oceanides, Spring song, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar, Nightride and probably a few more lesser known ones.
I have several of Tapiola and Finlandia and also The Bard, En saga, Lemminkainen 1-4, Valse triste, Karelia-Suite.
I actually had the Segerstam with the Tempest suites already on my list of things to probably get. I guess Oceanides, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar and Nightride are the major tone poems I am still missing. Besides the Segerstam disc I thought about the following disc:
[asin]B0000676P5[/asin]
This will leave Luonnotar where I should probably listen to some samples because the singer will be important. The lesser theatre music can probably wait or I could sample one of the Segerstam/Naxos.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 12:45:06 PM
I (think) I am missing Oceanides, Spring song, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar, Nightride and probably a few more lesser known ones.
I have several of Tapiola and Finlandia and also The Bard, En saga, Lemminkainen 1-4, Valse triste, Karelia-Suite.
I actually had the Segerstam with the Tempest suites already on my list of things to probably get. I guess Oceanides, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar and Nightride are the major tone poems I am still missing. Besides the Segerstam disc I thought about the following disc:
This will leave Luonnotar where I should probably listen to some samples because the singer will be important. The lesser theatre music can probably wait or I could sample one of the Segerstam/Naxos.
Sounds like a plan. My preference for
Luonnotar is Helena Juntunen/Vänskä, though Mattila/Oramo, and Isokoski with Segerstam or Järvi aren't bad either. I don't remember being very fond of any version with a soprano who doesn't speak Finnish...
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 12:45:06 PM
I (think) I am missing Oceanides, Spring song, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar, Nightride and probably a few more lesser known ones.
Cannot recommend recordings because I like almost any recording that doesn't completely ruin the work, which to my ear are really rare. However, I can give you recommendations on which compositions to pick, and those are, without a doubt, Pohjola's daughter and Luonnotar. Of course all Sibelius's tone poems are of a very high quality and I love them all but those two remain at the very top.
Quote from: Alberich on January 19, 2018, 02:56:06 PM
Cannot recommend recordings because I like almost any recording that doesn't completely ruin the work, which to my ear are really rare. However, I can give you recommendations on which compositions to pick, and those are, without a doubt, Pohjola's daughter and Luonnotar. Of course all Sibelius's tone poems are of a very high quality and I love them all but those two remain at the very top.
He should get the above disc with
Vänskä, so no need to pick and choose of the works. ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 10:47:45 AM
I am not a huge "Sibelian" and far from a completist but I want to close a few gaps among the Tone Poems, Incidental music etc.
Which ones are more important and which recordings are recommended?
Apart from the question which of these pieces are worth getting I am also quite confused by apparently differing versions of these suites/incidental music selections: Often they are purely instrumental but some, e.g. Segerstam's series on Naxos also includes a few songs or vocal pieces. Should this be a factor when deciding?
Vänskä should fill the void here. Sibelius' most important tone poems are, IMHO, probably
Tapiola,
Pohjola's Daughter,
En Saga,
The Oceanides, and
Luonnotar. Not in this order of course.
Night Ride & Sunrise is perhaps his most least critically acclaimed tone poem, but I love it and I recommend it. As for the theatre music,
The Tempest in it's complete form (w/ Vänskä) is absolutely essential IMHO. I'd also say that
Pelleas and Melisande and
Swanwhite are worth checking out. Let's also not forget about all of the great vocal and choral music he wrote. In this case, I'd recommend the Sibelius Edition set
Voice & Orchestra. Loads of gems there. Happy listening!
Quote from: North Star on January 19, 2018, 01:14:46 PM
Sounds like a plan. My preference for Luonnotar is Helena Juntunen/Vänskä, though Mattila/Oramo, and Isokoski with Segerstam or Järvi aren't bad either. I don't remember being very fond of any version with a soprano who doesn't speak Finnish...
Thanks, I would not be able to tell poor Finnish diction, though, and two apparently highly regarded recordings are with Gibson and Bernstein as conductors and anglophone singers. But while the Juntunen seems locked in an expensive box both Isokoski's and Mattila's are very attractive discs with nice couplings. I have very few songs by Sibelius, only the historical DGG disc with Borg and one or two mixed recitals (Bonney and maybe Von Otter).
Don't forget The Dryad, Op. 45 No. 1. It's a really atmospheric (though not very long) piece.
Can't actually remember where the recording I own came from, think it was a Chandos disk with Alexander Gibson along with the 4th Symphony.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 20, 2018, 03:31:00 AM
Thanks, I would not be able to tell poor Finnish diction, though, and two apparently highly regarded recordings are with Gibson and Bernstein as conductors and anglophone singers. But while the Juntunen seems locked in an expensive box both Isokoski's and Mattila's are very attractive discs with nice couplings. I have very few songs by Sibelius, only the historical DGG disc with Borg and one or two mixed recitals (Bonney and maybe Von Otter).
The Juntunen recording is also separately available here. Pan & Echo and Väinön Virsi perhaps among the more interesting couplings, there are also songs for soloist & orchestra, Höstkväll (Autumn Evening) also in the Mattila & Isokoski discs at least. I don't know Korhonen but Tommi Hakala is an excellent Sibelius baritone.
[asin]B000F902TA[/asin]
I like Dorati's recording of Luonnotar:
[asin]B0001RVRH2[/asin]
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2018, 12:45:06 PM
I (think) I am missing Oceanides, Spring song, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar, Nightride and probably a few more lesser known ones.
I have several of Tapiola and Finlandia and also The Bard, En saga, Lemminkainen 1-4, Valse triste, Karelia-Suite.
I actually had the Segerstam with the Tempest suites already on my list of things to probably get. I guess Oceanides, Pohjolas daughter, Luonnotar and Nightride are the major tone poems I am still missing. Besides the Segerstam disc I thought about the following disc:
[asin]B0000676P5[/asin]
This will leave Luonnotar where I should probably listen to some samples because the singer will be important. The lesser theatre music can probably wait or I could sample one of the Segerstam/Naxos.
I bought the Vanska disc you're looking at, for pretty much the same purpose. It has a good collection of tone poems and, unlike a lot of Vanska discs, doesn't have any funny scraps or alternate versions.
I'm generally happy with it, although for the only piece where I could do a direct comparison I prefer my other version (En Saga, Ashkenazy conducting).
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUAga31XUAUw97W.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Sibelius on #BIS w/@LahtiSymphony & @OsmoVanska
http://a-fwd.to/3tcclmv
#Snöfrid & other delightful #choralmusic
and #vocalmusic w/orchestra.
@surprisedBeauty music (http://a-fwd.to/3tcclmv)
Inspired here.
Quote from: ørfeo on January 20, 2018, 10:26:30 PM
I bought the Vanska disc you're looking at, for pretty much the same purpose. It has a good collection of tone poems and, unlike a lot of Vanska discs, doesn't have any funny scraps or alternate versions.
I'm generally happy with it, although for the only piece where I could do a direct comparison I prefer my other version (En Saga, Ashkenazy conducting).
I already have the En Saga with both Ashkenazy and Kamu. It is unavoidable to get some duplication but I want to keep it within reason. I also think that I do not need every odd bit or the alternative versions often contained in some BIS issues. It is laudable that even minor Sibelius is presented so well but not all of us are such hardcore fans.
For starters I ordered the blue/yellow Vänskä, the song recital with Mattila, another Luonnotar (+ Lemminkainen) with Gibson (Chando) because it was so cheap and King Christian/Kuomela with Segerstam on Naxos. I'll keep the Tempest in mind, have not quite decided if I should go for the somewhat expensive complete recording or the suites. Unless I turn into huge fan this will be enough for some time.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 02:33:50 AM
I already have the En Saga with both Ashkenazy and Kamu. It is unavoidable to get some duplication but I want to keep it within reason. I also think that I do not need every odd bit or the alternative versions often contained in some BIS issues. It is laudable that even minor Sibelius is presented so well but not all of us are such hardcore fans.
For starters I ordered the blue/yellow Vänskä, the song recital with Mattila, another Luonnotar (+ Lemminkainen) with Gibson (Chando) because it was so cheap and King Christian/Kuomela with Segerstam on Naxos. I'll keep the Tempest in mind, have not quite decided if I should go for the somewhat expensive complete recording or the suites. Unless I turn into huge fan this will be enough for some time.
If you are not a completist I suggest you go for The Tempest Suites. The complete version has 36 numbers, most of them very short and some of them duplicated. For example, Nos 3, 21 & 31 are the same and only last around 20 secs, Nos 5 & 29 are the same and last 16 secs. If you listen to the whole thing in one sitting this doesn't matter too much but the whole thing is rather disjointed.
Quote from: Biffo on January 21, 2018, 03:29:28 AM
If you are not a completist I suggest you go for The Tempest Suites. The complete version has 36 numbers, most of them very short and some of them duplicated. For example, Nos 3, 21 & 31 are the same and only last around 20 secs, Nos 5 & 29 are the same and last 16 secs. If you listen to the whole thing in one sitting this doesn't matter too much but the whole thing is rather disjointed.
There is certainly truth in this.
What's the feeling on Segerstam's series of "orchestral works" albums on Naxos?
Smaller works and incidental music, off the beaten track. I'm wondering how the performances stack up. Often the only competition is on BIS (usually Vanska, some older recordings by Jarvi).
As announced above I got one of the Naxos disks with Segerstam. They seem a good cheap option to get the lesser known stuff and apparently also more complete as the more often recorded suites, i.e. including vocal pieces. As I have nothing to compare them with, they seem fine. Although I have to admit that the music sounds mostly rather forgettable to me.
On my "mini-binge" the only pieces I had not really heard before (I had listened a little on youtube) that seem worth the effort are Luonnotar, Pohjola's daughter and the Okeanides. The "nightride" is at least 5 minutes too long; shorter pieces like "The dryad" and "The Bard" hardly seem to get going in the first place. But compared to the incidental music even the in my ears weaker tone poems still sound fairly "Sibelian" if not as distinctive as the symphonies or even the early En Saga.
The King Christian music is not bad but nothing all that memorable either and it is also not surprising that Valse triste is by far the best known bit of the "Kuolema" music. I guess the only two things I will probably get in the future to close the gaps are the Pelleas & Melisande and Tempest incidental music as they seem by far the most famous and more frequently recorded.
[asin]B00WUFBQME[/asin]
It's taken me until now to figure out the Serenad for voice and piano and the Serenad for baritone and orchestra, are two completely different songs.
Goodness know it isn't hard to find links that will tell you you're looking at the "version" for piano or the "version" for orchestra, but JS 167 and JS 168 are set to the words of different poets!
Quote from: Jo498 on January 31, 2018, 12:58:42 AM
As announced above I got one of the Naxos disks with Segerstam. They seem a good cheap option to get the lesser known stuff and apparently also more complete as the more often recorded suites, i.e. including vocal pieces. As I have nothing to compare them with, they seem fine. Although I have to admit that the music sounds mostly rather forgettable to me.
On my "mini-binge" the only pieces I had not really heard before (I had listened a little on youtube) that seem worth the effort are Luonnotar, Pohjola's daughter and the Okeanides. The "nightride" is at least 5 minutes too long; shorter pieces like "The dryad" and "The Bard" hardly seem to get going in the first place. But compared to the incidental music even the in my ears weaker tone poems still sound fairly "Sibelian" if not as distinctive as the symphonies or even the early En Saga.
The King Christian music is not bad but nothing all that memorable either and it is also not surprising that Valse triste is by far the best known bit of the "Kuolema" music. I guess the only two things I will probably get in the future to close the gaps are the Pelleas & Melisande and Tempest incidental music as they seem by far the most famous and more frequently recorded.
[asin]B00WUFBQME[/asin]
I like The Bard. It is, indeed, short but I find it to be an eloquent and poetic work.
"The bard" (I actually had this before) is not bad, I just did not find it all that memorable. Whereas the rather early Lemminkäinen-Suite seems almost underrated to me. Very often we get only the "Swan" which is a nice mood piece but I think it makes more sense in the context with the more dramatic pieces (like L in Tuonela).
I don't actively dislike the stuff on the incidental music disk pictured above. But it seems that Sibelius churned out tons of not terribly distinctive music before he found his style or even parallel to the more important pieces. Then he was burned out and did not manage to complete the 8th symphony, a pity.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
"The bard" (I actually had this before) is not bad, I just did not find it all that memorable. Whereas the rather early Lemminkäinen-Suite seems almost underrated to me. Very often we get only the "Swan" which is a nice mood piece but I think it makes more sense in the context with the more dramatic pieces (like L in Tuonela).
I don't actively dislike the stuff on the incidental music disk pictured above. But it seems that Sibelius churned out tons of not terribly distinctive music before he found his style or even parallel to the more important pieces. Then he was burned out and did not manage to complete the 8th symphony, a pity.
Very much agree with you about the Lemminkainen Suite which I prefer, for example, to the First Symphony. L in Tuonela is my favourite section, especially in Thomas Jensen's very atmospheric Danish RSO recording - a revelation for me when I bought the old Decca Eclipse LP in my youth.
I've been listening to Barbirolli's Halle recording of Symphony 2 over the past few days - it is my favourite recording of this symphony. It's accompanied by a most poetic account of 'The Swan of Tuonela' notwithstanding Sir John humming along to it. What a shame that he never recorded the complete 'Four Legends for Orchestra' or 'Tapiola' for that matter.
(//)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Sibelius survey updated w/Elder -- assuming that he'll finish what is 5/7 done. Also added global links.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX37fHWX0AA266K.jpg)
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F04%2FFORBES_Classical-CD-of-the-MONTH_2017-04_SIBELIUS_BRSO_Jansons_BR-KLASSIK-960.jpg)
Classical CD Of The Month:
Mariss Jansons And Sibelius In Shostakovich's Clothing
In the Sibelius desert that is Central Europe, this is an oasis – generally excellent and especially noteworthy for its absolutely astounding Finlandia.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/04/14/classical-cd-of-the-month-mariss-jansons-and-sibelius-in-shostakovichs-clothing/#38b1e79055f9
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/04/14/classical-cd-of-the-month-mariss-jansons-and-sibelius-in-shostakovichs-clothing/#38b1e79055f9)
Thanks for the article, Jens. I have Jansons' previous Concertgebouw version, which you rightly pan. A disappointing outing where the conductor gets lost in the thickets. Like you, my favourite is Barbirolli's volcanic RPO version (better played than in Manchester). I also furiously enjoy Szell's versions (live or commercial) as well as Monteux'. Considering Haitink's success with the RVW symphonies, it's strange that he NEVER recorded a symphony by Sibelius. I would have thought him a good fit for such an undertaking.
That being said, there should be an embargo on recordings of the 2nd, though >:D. It's like yet another recording of the Pastoral or the Unfinished (yawn).
Quote from: André on April 17, 2018, 03:56:22 AM
Thanks for the article, Jens. I have Jansons' previous Concertgebouw version, which you rightly pan. A disappointing outing where the conductor gets lost in the thickets. Like you, my favourite is Barbirolli's volcanic RPO version (better played than in Manchester). I also furiously enjoy Szell's versions (live or commercial) as well as Monteux'. Considering Haitink's success with the RVW symphonies, it's strange that he NEVER recorded a symphony by Sibelius. I would have thought him a good fit for such an undertaking.
That being said, there should be an embargo on recordings of the 2nd, though >:D. It's like yet another recording of the Pastoral or the Unfinished (yawn).
I don't think there should be an embargo on any work - no one forces you to listen to it.
The first Sibelius symphony I heard was No 1 (Maazel/VPO) followed by No 2 (Barbirolli/Halle). The first I heard live was No 2 (Kletzki/CBSO) and it was a wonderful experience. After that I was hooked on Sibelius. A performance (live or recorded) could very well lead a beginner into the rest of Sibelius.
Quote from: André on April 17, 2018, 03:56:22 AM
That being said, there should be an embargo on recordings of the 2nd, though >:D. It's like yet another recording of the Pastoral or the Unfinished (yawn).
:D Almost. Or how about the new Decca Gold label starting with LvB 5 & 7?! What a symbol of "same-old-same-oldness"!
Quote from: Biffo on April 17, 2018, 04:21:59 AM
I don't think there should be an embargo on any work - no one forces you to listen to it.
Figure of speech that was, I suppose.
Quote from: André on April 17, 2018, 03:56:22 AM
Thanks for the article, Jens. I have Jansons' previous Concertgebouw version, which you rightly pan. A disappointing outing where the conductor gets lost in the thickets. Like you, my favourite is Barbirolli's volcanic RPO version (better played than in Manchester). I also furiously enjoy Szell's versions (live or commercial) as well as Monteux'. Considering Haitink's success with the RVW symphonies, it's strange that he NEVER recorded a symphony by Sibelius. I would have thought him a good fit for such an undertaking.
That being said, there should be an embargo on recordings of the 2nd, though >:D. It's like yet another recording of the Pastoral or the Unfinished (yawn).
of those, Monteux I don't have. Listened to the Szell/RCO (is there another?) one, as well, as part of the internal comparison. I suppose Haitink not having recorded (or much/at all performed) J.S. suggests that he doesn't feel him... in which case it's good he didn't record any. ;D
I wonder how Thielemann would sound in Sibelius, if he fell in love with the composer and had an orchestra that also dug that music. But that's a pipe-dream.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 18, 2018, 12:17:27 AM
of those, Monteux I don't have. Listened to the Szell/RCO (is there another?) one, as well, as part of the internal comparison. I suppose Haitink not having recorded (or much/at all performed) J.S. suggests that he doesn't feel him... in which case it's good he didn't record any. ;D
I wonder how Thielemann would sound in Sibelius, if he fell in love with the composer and had an orchestra that also dug that music. But that's a pipe-dream.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615-f72Kd2L.jpg)
A sizzling concert performance with the clevelanders, one year before he died.
Quote from: André on April 18, 2018, 04:41:23 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615-f72Kd2L.jpg)
A sizzling concert performance with the clevelanders, one year before he died.
Actually it was two months before his death. He died July 30, 1970; the concert was on May 22, 1970.
Sarge
I thought it was 1971, but of course you're right. You'd never think of any physical/medical issues when listening to this pair of discs.
Quote from: André on April 18, 2018, 06:00:09 AM
I thought it was 1971, but of course you're right. You'd never think of any physical/medical issues when listening to this pair of discs.
Yes, its remarkable. He was dying at this point (he never conducted in Cleveland again; his last concert was in Alaska on the trip back from the Asian tour) but he still managed to produce one of the great Sibelius Seconds.
Sarge
This...
[asin]B000OCZ89C[/asin]
or this?
[asin]B019D93B18[/asin]
With a focus on performance, not on slightly insane prices for one of them (it might be cheaper to scrounge the separate discs in fact)...
I've been sampling Incidental Music, getting for a feel for it and working out what I want to buy.
Coming here to say... The prelude to The Tempest sounds utterly amazing and this is the sort of thing that should be in the repertoire.
I've been greatly enjoying the original 1915 version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony. In a way it's like discovering a new Sibelius symphony. Of course it is not as coherent as the final 1919 version but, like the 1913 or 1920 versions of Vaughan Williams's 'A London Symphony' there are some wonderful poetic moments missing from the final version. The earlier version is in four (rather than three) movements and is about five minutes longer than the final version. In the 1915 version there is a wonderful piece of moving and poetic counterpoint towards the start of the last (fourth) movement (from 1 minute 42 seconds) which I wish had been retained in the final version. My brother is a great admirer of Sibelius but the 5th Symphony is his least favourite of the seven and I wonder if he'd prefer the original version:
[asin]B0000266UC[/asin]
Great cover art for this series.
Naxos Music Library died this afternoon so I went hunting for something fun on YouTube and found this wild, wonderfully eccentric performance of the Seventh Symphony by - yes - Leningrad and Evgeny Mravinsky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkbmrra-zOg
Quote from: Brian on February 14, 2019, 11:43:36 AM
Naxos Music Library died this afternoon so I went hunting for something fun on YouTube and found this wild, wonderfully eccentric performance of the Seventh Symphony by - yes - Leningrad and Evgeny Mravinsky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkbmrra-zOg
I've been a long time fan of that recording. It is sui generis definitely, and you'll never gonna hear trombones like that these days, but it works I think. It does for me at least.
That's a fabled recording, the Mravinsky 7.
Speaking of Sibelius, today I updated the Sibelius Symphony Cycle Survey.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
New, for now, is only Paavo Jaervi's Paris Cycle. And the Gothenburg SO is starting a new cycle with their current MD.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-uwlV483L._SY355_.jpg)
Some have given raves for Press Celebration Music. Just now listening for the first time. It shares the soundworld of Four Legends from Kalevala, very consistent stuff, and highly personal as well. It includes Finlandia on its first version like Finland Awakes.
There must be other gems hidden in his catalogue. What Sibelius neglected or lesser-known pieces do you think are beautiful, great or worth listening? It comes to my mind the Violin Sonatas, the Piano Quintet iirc, and of course, The Wood Nymph.
I don't know if the andante festivo counts as a hidden gem, but it's a gem.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 04, 2019, 02:43:36 PM
I don't know if the andante festivo counts as a hidden gem, but it's a gem.
Haha, good correction!
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 04, 2019, 02:36:54 PM
There must be other gems hidden in his catalogue. What Sibelius neglected or lesser-known pieces do you think are beautiful, great or worth listening?
I highly recommend checking out Sibelius' ballet music for 'Scaramouche'.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 04, 2019, 02:36:54 PMThere must be other gems hidden in his catalogue. What Sibelius neglected or lesser-known pieces do you think are beautiful, great or worth listening? It comes to my mind the Violin Sonatas, the Piano Quintet iirc, and of course, The Wood Nymph.
The Origin of Fire (original version) gets my vote. The complete recording of
The Tempest is also a must-hear. Another 'hidden gem', for me, would be
Rakastava in Sibelius' own arrangement for strings, percussion, and triangle. Also, many of his songs are worth hearing (whether for voice/piano or voice/orchestra). Do you own all of the Sibelius BIS sets?
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
The Origin of Fire (original version) gets my vote. The complete recording of The Tempest is also a must-hear. Another 'hidden gem', for me, would be Rakastava in Sibelius' own arrangement for strings, percussion, and triangle. Also, many of his songs are worth hearing (whether for voice/piano or voice/orchestra). Do you own all of the Sibelius BIS sets?
I have a lot of JS, who did after all write my favorite piece of music, but confess I wouldn't be interested in a whole shelf. But apart from the orchestral boxes, which of these is most interesting/rewarding?
Quote from: Ken B on March 04, 2019, 05:54:09 PM
I have a lot of JS, who did after all write my favorite piece of music, but confess I wouldn't be interested in a whole shelf. But apart from the orchestral boxes, which of these is most interesting/rewarding?
Outside of the orchestral music and the few chamber pieces I've heard, I know very little of his oeuvre. So perhaps a resident Sibelian can answer more effectively? :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 04, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
The Origin of Fire (original version) gets my vote. The complete recording of The Tempest is also a must-hear. Another 'hidden gem', for me, would be Rakastava in Sibelius' own arrangement for strings, percussion, and triangle. Also, many of his songs are worth hearing (whether for voice/piano or voice/orchestra). Do you own all of the Sibelius BIS sets?
The Complete Tempest gets my vote. There is a wonderful 'Interlude' representing Prospero (track 8 on the BIS disc) which is not included in either of the suites which Sibelius put together. It is my favourite movement of all. Also I agree with John about 'The Origins of Fire' and would add the Complete Karelia music (especially on Ondine although the BIS is good too). I've recently been enjoying the original (1915) version of Symphony 5.
It has to be "The Bard" for me. The first time I heard the tone poem which was only last year I thought - where has that come from and how on earth have I not heard it before ?!
Well, as some of you might have seen I'm going through the orchestral music chronologically. I'm documenting it in the current listening thread. The Wood-Nymph has already been mentioned. Other earlyish works that have taken my fancy include the orchestral song Serenad, and The Rapid Rider's Brides,
The Presto that is an orchestration from the op.4 string quartet is also surprisingly fun.
Elsewhere, from the piano music it's op.24 that is rather impressive (later than the opus number appears, thanks to Sibelius' weird vagaries with opus numbers). There's good reason why several pianists put op.24 first in a collection.
The songs with piano definitely deserve a wider hearing than they get. There are some truly surprising things in there.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The Complete Tempest gets my vote. There is a wonderful 'Interlude' representing Prospero (track 8 on the BIS disc) which is not included in either of the suites which Sibelius put together. It is my favourite movement of all. Also I agree with John about 'The Origins of Fire' and would add the Complete Karelia music (especially on Ondine although the BIS is good too). I've recently been enjoying the original (1915) version of Symphony 5.
The Interlude is a fine piece but I would still go for the Suites, too much repetition in the complete Tempest. The Interlude is in Suite No 2 (No 3, Prospero) but in abbreviated form.
Quote from: Biffo on March 05, 2019, 03:55:14 AM
The Interlude is a fine piece but I would still go for the Suites, too much repetition in the complete Tempest. The Interlude is in Suite No 2 (No 3, Prospero) but in abbreviated form.
I like the Suites too although I think the part of 'Prospero' I like is cut out - certainly hearing that part of The Complete Tempest was a complete revelation to me. There are parts of the 1915 version of Symphony 5 which were a revelation too, especially near the opening of the original fourth movement.
Quote from: Irons on March 04, 2019, 11:28:18 PM
It has to be "The Bard" for me. The first time I heard the tone poem which was only last year I thought - where has that come from and how on earth have I not heard it before ?!
Oh, I love the Bard but have known it since the days of the LP. I also greatly enjoy the Oceanides.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 04, 2019, 02:36:54 PM
There must be other gems hidden in his catalogue. What Sibelius neglected or lesser-known pieces do you think are beautiful, great or worth listening?
I should think that the Romances -- defacto Violin Concertinos -- would count...?!?
Forbes Classical CD Of The Week: Hidden Sibelius Gems (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-hidden-sibelius-gems/#36e8a7745f49)
I actually don't think those are all hidden gems, some of those are IMO among Sibelius's most well-known compositions.
Quote from: Alberich on March 05, 2019, 05:31:25 AM
I actually don't think those are all hidden gems, some of those are IMO among Sibelius's most well-known compositions.
You're right. But relatively speaking, no? Next to
Scaramouche, they're
wildly popular. Next to the Violin Concerto, no one knows them.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
The Complete Tempest gets my vote. There is a wonderful 'Interlude' representing Prospero (track 8 on the BIS disc) which is not included in either of the suites which Sibelius put together. It is my favourite movement of all. Also I agree with John about 'The Origins of Fire' and would add the Complete Karelia music (especially on Ondine although the BIS is good too). I've recently been enjoying the original (1915) version of Symphony 5.
A great choice, Jeffrey. 8)
The Tempest is one of my favorites from Sibelius.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 05, 2019, 04:27:38 AM
I should think that the Romances -- defacto Violin Concertinos -- would count...?!?
Forbes Classical CD Of The Week: Hidden Sibelius Gems (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/09/06/classical-cd-of-the-week-hidden-sibelius-gems/#36e8a7745f49)
His music for violin and orchestra beside the VC gets my vote as well. The guy really had a knack for writing gorgeous violin music.
And I fully agree that the E-flat major Humoresque is to die for.
Very compelling suggestions, guys. Thank you all. I'll investigate further.
Quote from: Biffo on March 05, 2019, 03:55:14 AM
The Interlude is a fine piece but I would still go for the Suites, too much repetition in the complete Tempest. The Interlude is in Suite No 2 (No 3, Prospero) but in abbreviated form.
I've just checked this out by comparing the Complete Tempest Score conducted by Vanska (track eight) 'Prospero' with the relevant section of Suite No.2 conducted by Kamu 'Prospero' (both on BIS) track 14. The Suite No.2 cuts out the central, liturgical-sounding, section of ''Prospero' which is my favourite bit of the whole score, rather like Vaughan Williams (IMO) cutting out the best part of 'A London Symphony' in his 1936 revision, just before the 'Epilogue'. Ironically I suspect that Vaughan Williams was influenced by Sibelius (at the height of his fame in Britain in 1936) in his final detrimental (IMO) revision of 'A London Symphony'.
Of the various 'hidden gems' mentioned so far I would second Rakastava, perhaps not as obscure as it used to be but still a gem - I have just been listening to it from Barbirolli/Halle - beautiful.
One of my favourite Sibelius LPs is Antal Dorati and the LSO playing various tone poems. When it was first issued in the 70's Luonnotar was a relative rarity and is still one of my favourites.
Would the Karelia Overture count as obscure? I didn't know it before I started rehearsing for a performance recently. It shares the big tune with the 1st movement of the Suite, and is otherwise quite jolly.
Quote from: DaveF on March 06, 2019, 02:38:05 AM
Would the Karelia Overture count as obscure? I didn't know it before I started rehearsing for a performance recently. It shares the big tune with the 1st movement of the Suite, and is otherwise quite jolly.
I suppose it is relatively obscure compared to the Suite but I acquired it on one of the first Sibelius LPs I bought as a fill-up to the Fifth Symphony from Anthony Collins and the LSO
In general, I don't think we've established a threshold on what is obscure. ;D
At a minimum, I'd propose: Anything outside the seven symphonies, the violin concerto, Kullervo, Nightride & Sunrise, Finlandia, Swan of Tuonela, Tapiola, En Saga, Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter, Valse Triste, Karelija Suite, Andante Festivo, and the Lemminkäinen Suite is potentially obscure.
Right on the "Dalton Line" of obscurity: King Christian Suite and The Bard...
The string quartet might also count as unobscure or maybe borderline. And maybe a couple of songs, the Pelleas+Melisande and Tempest suites. Almost anything else is rather obscure and many listeners were probably, like me, quite astonished how large the BIS edition turned out to be.
Sibelius clearly seems a case of an "iceberg" with most of the oeuvre under water. Not to discourage anyone from discovery, what I have listened to beyond the tip usually seems obscure for a reason. ;) (E.g I got some early chamber music on BIS or as fillers and the piano selection Gould recorded and found this rather forgettable, same for the less known incidental music) But I am not the biggest fan even of the famous works.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 06, 2019, 04:17:17 AM
many listeners were probably, like me, quite astonished how large the BIS edition turned out to be.
It would not be
quite so large if they hadn't recorded every alternate version and every scrap of study exercise they could lay their hands on.
Don't get me wrong, it would still be quite substantial. But some volumes in the set would shrink by a disc or two. I've yet to encounter any other edition for a composer that goes to quite such lengths to record every single jotted note.
In the one volume I did buy, because it was pretty much free of the more insubstantial things, I still have 4 copies of the choral
Har du mod? op.31/2. Haven't listened to them yet...
Quote from: Biffo on March 06, 2019, 02:26:24 AM
Of the various 'hidden gems' mentioned so far I would second Rakastava, perhaps not as obscure as it used to be but still a gem - I have just been listening to it from Barbirolli/Halle - beautiful.
One of my favourite Sibelius LPs is Antal Dorati and the LSO playing various tone poems. When it was first issued in the 70's Luonnotar was a relative rarity and is still one of my favourites.
+1 for Luonnotar, especially in the Dorati recording.
Am currently really enjoying 'The Bard' in this recording:
(//)
Luonnotar is still above water, I'd say
Okko Kamu is a very fine conductor. I've loved everything he's done if it is austere. I haven't heard anything light from him but he's great with Shostakovich/Sibelius.
Quote from: relm1 on March 06, 2019, 04:43:55 PM
Okko Kamu is a very fine conductor. I've loved everything he's done if it is austere. I haven't heard anything light from him but he's great with Shostakovich/Sibelius.
I agree. I first came across Kamu conducting Sibelius's Symphony 3 and 1 on DGG. These were part of the incomplete cycle by Karajan who did not conduct those symphonies I think.
Kamu was studying or working with Karajan as an assistant. He recorded #2 with the Berlin Philharmonic. Apparently Karajan never recorded (or conducted) #3 (he recorded 1 and 2 later for EMI) so Kamu ended up doing the first three + fillers (and I think another Sibelius orchestral pieces LP later) so DG had a complete cycle to offer.
As I pointed out earlier, except for the violin concerto and a few of the shorter orchestral pieces, Sibelius was not that popular in Germany/Austria. Many of the Germano-Austrian conductors did very little Sibelius, so Karajan was an exception. This seems even more the case in France and Italy: Abbado, Giulini, Chailly never recorded any, AFAIK besides accompanying in the VC. The recent P.Järvi recordings were the first complete Sibelius symphonies with a French orchestra on records and I'd bet that even single recordings are few.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 06, 2019, 07:26:58 AM
Luonnotar is still above water, I'd say
The water level ain't where it used to be.
BTW, Luonnotar was actually one of my early favorite works of Sibelius, thanks to a Soderstrom recording.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 06, 2019, 11:20:01 PM
Kamu was studying or working with Karajan as an assistant. He recorded #2 with the Berlin Philharmonic. Apparently Karajan never recorded (or conducted) #3 (he recorded 1 and 2 later for EMI) so Kamu ended up doing the first three + fillers (and I think another Sibelius orchestral pieces LP later) so DG had a complete cycle to offer.
As I pointed out earlier, except for the violin concerto and a few of the shorter orchestral pieces, Sibelius was not that popular in Germany/Austria. Many of the Germano-Austrian conductors did very little Sibelius, so Karajan was an exception. This seems even more the case in France and Italy: Abbado, Giulini, Chailly never recorded any, AFAIK besides accompanying in the VC. The recent P.Järvi recordings were the first complete Sibelius symphonies with a French orchestra on records and I'd bet that even single recordings are few.
Pierre Monteux recorded Symphony No 2 but not with a French orchestra (the LSO) - can't think of any other French Sibelius recordings.
Edit: shortly after posting this I had a vague memory of reading something about Sibelius in a French music magazine. After digging into the archives I found the February 2015 issue of
Diapason. It had special features to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the birth of Sibelius.
It started by posing the question 'Had Sibelius' time finally come in France?' The answer was probably not. There was a lengthy biographical piece with numerous illustrations, a short discussion of his influence (non-existent in France) and finally a selected discography - the usual suspects and no French recordings whatsoever.
I suppose that they bothered at all indicates some interest.
Okay, I am most definitely adding Snöfrid to the list of hidden gems. I'd already though it was good after listening on streaming, but now that I have the relevant CD and the text in front of me... even better.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bMpCHX4UL._SX425_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zIG6JGM5L._SX425_.jpg)
Vanska's recording (BIS edition or single CD) is richly coloured and powerful. There are a couple of other recordings available (Klas on Ondine, Paavo Jarvi on Virgin) and my own listening notes indicated all the versions were decent, though I think I liked Jarvi the least.
But the BIS notes describe it as a "vastly underrated composition", and it certainly is making an impression with me.
Snöfrid is a fine work, indeed, Madiel. Underrated? Absolutely!
Here is your opportunity to tell me whether I'm crazy.
Listen to the scherzo of the 4th symphony.
Listen to Impromptu, op.19, which Sibelius revised in 1910 (in the period the 4th was being completed).
Tell me if you hear anything familiar??
Quote from: Madiel on March 16, 2019, 03:33:05 AM
Here is your opportunity to tell me whether I'm crazy.
Listen to the scherzo of the 4th symphony.
Listen to Impromptu, op.19, which Sibelius revised in 1910 (in the period the 4th was being completed).
Tell me if you hear anything familiar??
Inspired thereby:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1yxyJ2XQAE949x.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Sibelius (@JeanJCSibelius) w/@LahtiSymphony, #DominanteChoir & @OsmoVanska on #BISrecords: #Kullervo
: http://a-fwd.to/7jDekTY
#Impromptu op.19 for Orchestra and choir
(http://a-fwd.to/7jDekTY)
Quote from: Madiel on March 16, 2019, 03:33:05 AM
Here is your opportunity to tell me whether I'm crazy.
Listen to the scherzo of the 4th symphony.
Listen to Impromptu, op.19, which Sibelius revised in 1910 (in the period the 4th was being completed).
Tell me if you hear anything familiar??
I'll have to do this on Monday. I definitely will listen for what you're hearing. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the case given the proximity of both
Symphony No. 4 and the revision of
Impromptu.
Any interest here with the Paavo Jarvi/Paris cycle? I've been streaming some of it this morning and so far I'm quite very impressed with the colorfulness, and clarity of both the performances and the sound quality.
[asin]B07KZHVHXL[/asin]
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 04, 2019, 04:00:08 AM
Any interest here with the Paavo Jarvi/Paris cycle? I've been streaming some of it this morning and so far I'm quite very impressed with the colorfulness, and clarity of both the performances and the sound quality.
[asin]B07KZHVHXL[/asin]
I have just listened to Symphony No 1 on Spotify. It is a fine performance and GSM is right about the clarity of the sound but not sure I want yet another Sibelius symphony cycle. I will have to listen further. Meanwhile, Spotify also brought up another recording of No 1 - from Yannick Nezet-Seguin - I have saved it (and the Jarvi cycle) for later listening.
Quote from: Biffo on May 04, 2019, 06:07:50 AM
I have just listened to Symphony No 1 on Spotify. It is a fine performance and GSM is right about the clarity of the sound but not sure I want yet another Sibelius symphony cycle. I will have to listen further. Meanwhile, Spotify also brought up another recording of No 1 - from Yannick Nezet-Seguin - I have saved it (and the Jarvi cycle) for later listening.
YNS will conduct all the symphonies this season in Montreal. Recordings will probably ensue. No 1 is in the can already.
Another visit to the Jarvi/Paris symphony cycle, No 3 this time and a very different impression from the clarity of No 1. While there is plenty of woodwind detail the main impression is one of heaviness. The first movement is stodgy and the third movement laboured. Not impressed.
I rather like this endearing account of Sibelius's relationship with his wife Aino.
'...perenially in debt and mostly drunk.'
http://www.interlude.hk/front/nordic-fairytalejanne-sibelius-aino-jarnefelt/
Similar anecdote from Robert Simpson: he went to Denmark in the early 50s and spoke to Nielsen's friends and family. They told him that Sibelius was a frequent visitor chez Nielsen when he came to Copenhagen. "They must have had marvelous conversations about music!" said Simpson. "No," he was told, "Sibelius was always drunk".
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 30, 2019, 03:03:23 PM
Similar anecdote from Robert Simpson: he went to Denmark in the early 50s and spoke to Nielsen's friends and family. They told him that Sibelius was a frequent visitor chez Nielsen when he came to Copenhagen. "They must have had marvelous conversations about music!" said Simpson. "No," he was told, "Sibelius was always drunk".
Not heard that one before! Thanks.
I enjoyed the Berglund/Haendel recording of the Violin Concerto. I found it very atmospheric and beautifully played. Despite hearing it live last year it's not a work that I listen to much - so difficult for me to compare it with other recordings.
Which recording of the violin concerto do you consider the most austere (grave, solemn, serious, dramatic)? von Karajan?
Quote from: relm1 on June 02, 2019, 06:00:57 AM
Which recording of the violin concerto do you consider the most austere (grave, solemn, serious, dramatic)? von Karajan?
Not sure Karim as I don't know that many.
Quote from: relm1 on June 02, 2019, 06:00:57 AM
Which recording of the violin concerto do you consider the most austere (grave, solemn, serious, dramatic)? von Karajan?
My favorite recording of the
Violin Concerto is Hilary Hahn with Esa-Pekka Salonen on Deutsche Grammophon. For me, no other performance captures the snowbound loneliness and the fiery, almost volcanic surges that run deep through this concerto better than Hahn/Salonen.
Quote from: relm1 on June 02, 2019, 06:00:57 AM
Which recording of the violin concerto do you consider the most austere (grave, solemn, serious, dramatic)? von Karajan?
I think that this one, which I've been listening to this morning, might appeal. It has a wonderful, very quiet, urgent and magical opening and has a generally brooding atmosphere. I certainly feel more involved that I usually do with this work. Reviews tend to suggest that the performance divides opinion but I like it very much. It's also coupled with a very fine performance of 'Tapiola' (LSO conducted by Tauno Hannikainen):
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 02, 2019, 07:55:13 PM
My favorite recording of the Violin Concerto is Hilary Hahn with Esa-Pekka Salonen on Deutsche Grammophon. For me, no other performance captures the snowbound loneliness and the fiery, almost volcanic surges that run deep through this concerto better than Hahn/Salonen.
I'm curious whether you know the one that Salonen did with Cho-Liang Lin, which is the one I chose to buy.
Quote from: Madiel on June 03, 2019, 03:50:39 AM
I'm curious whether you know the one that Salonen did with Cho-Liang Lin, which is the one I chose to buy.
Yes, I know that one as well and it didn't make much of an impression on me. I contribute this mainly to Lin's violin playing which didn't 'wow' me like Hahn's. I also found Lin's playing rather faceless compared to Hahn's.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 03, 2019, 05:44:13 AM
Yes, I know that one as well and it didn't make much of an impression on me. I contribute this mainly to Lin's violin playing which didn't 'wow' me like Hahn's. I also found Lin's playing rather faceless compared to Hahn's.
Oh well. I adored the very opening of Lin's performance, essentially because it was the closest match to the BIS recording by Leonidas Kavakos, only I shied away from the BIS because it gives you 2 versions of the same piece and I wasn't terribly convinced I wanted that. But I did want the kind of withdrawn sound that they both open with.
And that pretty much was the starting point for picking it. I do seem to remember that Hahn was a contender for me though.
As a person who looks for exactly the opposite qualities in the Sibelius concerto, I can vouch for Kavakos and Hahn (especially their orchestral accompaniments) as austere, withdrawn, grave, lonely. Those words definitely apply, which is why I prefer to listen to livelier, warmer accounts by Adele Anthony, her husband Gil Shaham, Augustin Hadelich, or the o.g., Jascha Heifetz.
I bought and listened to symphonies 1-4 by Berglund/Helsinki. Best in the lot were nos 1 and 4, but IMO these performances do not reach a very high level of listener communication. It's not without an interesting musical profile of its own, but it comes across as just too aloof to engage the listener (me) intellectually or emotionally.
In the Segerstam set I have yet to listen to nos 4 and 5. Yesterday I put on symphonies 2, 6 and 7 and the Tempest Suite plus In Memoriam. No 2 was a pleasant listen but there is no sharpness to the attacks and releases, very little drama and tension. What it does offer is a plush, beautifully articulated execution at a comfortable pace. Segerstam' no 6 is very nice, and I enjoyed it moderately. This is the most elusive of all the symphonies. Cinderella-like, the right 'fit' tends to prove extremely rare, and so far I remain loyal to Karajan's first BP version on DGG on account of its perfectly chosen tempi and spacious, luminous sound. Karajan's later version is not exactly obese, but slightly too slack and the recorded sound fails to encase the performance in an identifiable acoustic.
Segerstam's no 7 is the pick of the crop so far, a performance of immense power and majesty. The awe factor is very high, and the conductor clothes it all in the most sumptuous orchestral textures. The chilling ff dissonant chord before the last section is exactly what it should be: a striking whipping, a farewell to tonality. Superbly done.
Quote from: André on June 07, 2019, 08:00:40 AM
I bought and listened to symphonies 1-4 by Berglund/Helsinki. Best in the lot were nos 1 and 4, but IMO these performances do not reach a very high level of listener communication. It's not without an interesting musical profile of its own, but it comes across as just too aloof to engage the listener (me) intellectually or emotionally.
In the Segerstam set I have yet to listen to nos 4 and 5. Yesterday I put on symphonies 2, 6 and 7 and the Tempest Suite plus In Memoriam. No 2 was a pleasant listen but there is no sharpness to the attacks and releases, very little drama and tension. What it does offer is a plush, beautifully articulated execution at a comfortable pace. Segerstam' no 6 is very nice, and I enjoyed it moderately. This is the most elusive of all the symphonies. Cinderella-like, the right 'fit' tends to prove extremely rare, and so far I remain loyal to Karajan's first BP version on DGG on account of its perfectly chosen tempi and spacious, luminous sound. Karajan's later version is not exactly obese, but slightly too slack and the recorded sound fails to encase the performance in an identifiable acoustic.
Segerstam's no 7 is the pick of the crop so far, a performance of immense power and majesty. The awe factor is very high, and the conductor clothes it all in the most sumptuous orchestral textures. The chilling ff dissonant chord before the last section is exactly what it should be: a striking whipping, a farewell to tonality. Superbly done.
I prefer the Berglund Bournemouth set.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 30, 2019, 02:08:49 AM
I rather like this endearing account of Sibelius's relationship with his wife Aino.
'...perenially in debt and mostly drunk.'
http://www.interlude.hk/front/nordic-fairytalejanne-sibelius-aino-jarnefelt/
that thing that strikes me more is that Mr and Mrs Sibelius apparently continued writing x-rated letters to each other ever after.
Quote from: Herman on June 07, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
that thing that strikes me more is that Mr and Mrs Sibelius apparently continued writing x-rated letters to each other ever after.
I also liked the part where Aino writes to Jean saying that she is never prepared to watch him conduct whilst in an intoxicated state ever again.
I think Sibelius might be a perfect composer. I can literally listen to anything he composed and enjoy it. He is one of the very few composers I can listen to every symphony in a single sitting. But the same can be said about his tone poems or songs.
Quote from: relm1 on June 08, 2019, 04:51:31 PM
I think Sibelius might be a perfect composer. I can literally listen to anything he composed and enjoy it. He is one of the very few composers I can listen to every symphony in a single sitting. But the same can be said about his tone poems or songs.
Yes, actually, it's not a hard task (less so for hardened symphony fanatics :D ). Sibelius is light-weight comparing him with others. His music is quite rewarding overall, and something I've noticed is that his works contain little bombast or nothing of it, rather imbued with certain
natural motion that often sounds spiritual.
Quote from: relm1 on June 08, 2019, 04:51:31 PM
I think Sibelius might be a perfect composer. I can literally listen to anything he composed and enjoy it. He is one of the very few composers I can listen to every symphony in a single sitting. But the same can be said about his tone poems or songs.
He is I think the only composer whose music I can listen to regardless of what mood I am in. Something about the power of nature as reflected in his music I think.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mw5gvwnFL.jpg)
Contrary to the set of 1-4 by Berglund, I think I will want to explore Segertam's vision of Sibelius again. None of the symphonies was a flop, although he has more to offer in the larger or more complex confections.
His 4th is very good without offering a specific POV, whether it is in the sound and fury of elemental forces, or the cryptic, Rubik cube nature of its more enigmatic features. Nonetheless, in its brahmsian embrace of the score, Segerstam confidently leads the listener to the end of an event-filled journey.
The 5th is another matter. The Lemminkäinen-like sense of a conquering journey leads to a truly epiphanic performance of the coda in the first movement. A big WOW moment, the likes of which I had remembered Davis/Boston from many years ago, but that seldom fails to materialize in more analytical, fastidiously articulated performances. A sense of all hell breaking loose (Rozhdestvensky) is what I'm looking for. No wonder that when it's well done, the serene andante that follows sounds and serves more as an interlude than a structural symphonic element. Orchestra and engineering are all that could be asked.
Executive summary of the Segerstam set: superb, top of the line performances of 7 and 5, very interesting and event-filled performances of 4, 1 and 2, rather too objective and non-committal performances of 3 and 6. The fillers are well done, including the rare In Memoriam. Luxurious sound, very resonant and colourful.
For me the lush Chandos 'style' is a bit of a problem though - in much other music I like it but not here - and I do agree Segerstam is excellent in 5 and 7.
Very well reviewed in the Sunday Times today:
(//)
Akeo Watanabe's Sibelius Cycle On Denon
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECUzToUWwAExcCM?format=jpg&name=small) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/akeo-watanabes-sibelius-cycle-on-denon/)
Berglund/Bournemouth is an absolutely phenomenal Sibelius cycle... I believe it will remain my "reference" set for a long time to come. Of course, I can't say that with any certainty. I'm only just now truly coming around to Sibelius' genius. What a composer...
Is there any love for Vladimir Ashkenazy's Sibelius? I think his 5th symphony and En Saga with the Philharmonia is fantastic. I want to hear more of his cycle.
I just picked up a cheap download for the Vänskä/Lahti cycle, but am not impressed thus far. One day I will give it a fair shot, maybe when my honeymoon with the Berglund set wears off.
Ashkenazy is who I have, and I'm quite happy with it. I seem to remember reviews/general opinion were pretty positive.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 19, 2019, 03:10:29 PM
Berglund/Bournemouth is an absolutely phenomenal Sibelius cycle... I believe it will remain my "reference" set for a long time to come. Of course, I can't say that with any certainty. I'm only just now truly coming around to Sibelius' genius. What a composer...
Is there any love for Vladimir Ashkenazy's Sibelius? I think his 5th symphony and En Saga with the Philharmonia is fantastic. I want to hear more of his cycle.
I just picked up a cheap download for the Vänskä/Lahti cycle, but am not impressed thus far. One day I will give it a fair shot, maybe when my honeymoon with the Berglund set wears off.
Yes to both Berglund/Bournemouth and Ashkenazy - especially symphonies 4/5 and 'Tapiola'.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 19, 2019, 03:10:29 PM
Berglund/Bournemouth is an absolutely phenomenal Sibelius cycle... I believe it will remain my "reference" set for a long time to come. Of course, I can't say that with any certainty. I'm only just now truly coming around to Sibelius' genius. What a composer...
Is there any love for Vladimir Ashkenazy's Sibelius? I think his 5th symphony and En Saga with the Philharmonia is fantastic. I want to hear more of his cycle.
I'm not AS keen on Berglund/Bournemouth -- in part, perhaps, because I so love the Berglund/COE cycle, which is so distinctive. But I certainly DO like Ashkenazy's Sibelius. I think it might be underrated or at least too easily dismissed by some... but I've always found it very gratifying. 50th percentile, at the very least. (That somehow sounds less appreciative than I want it to...)
A Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 20, 2019, 12:45:37 AM
I'm not AS keen on Berglund/Bournemouth -- in part, perhaps, because I so love the Berglund/COE cycle, which is so distinctive. But I certainly DO like Ashkenazy's Sibelius. I think it might be underrated or at least too easily dismissed by some... but I've always found it very gratifying. 50th percentile, at the very least. (That somehow sounds less appreciative than I want it to...)
A Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Thanks for the link, and thanks for the opinions, everyone. Wow, there are so many choices out there. I am also thinking of getting the Berglund/Helsinki. I've heard some say it's even better than the Bournemouth set. But then there's also Barbirolli/Hallé, Karajan/Berlin, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Bernstein/NYPO, Segerstam on Ondine, etc... it all sounds great to my ears. As I might have mentioned, I picked up the famous Vänskä/Lahti as a cheap download and so far I am not impressed, but I'll be spending some time with it, eventually.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 20, 2019, 12:45:37 AM
I'm not AS keen on Berglund/Bournemouth -- in part, perhaps, because I so love the Berglund/COE cycle, which is so distinctive. But I certainly DO like Ashkenazy's Sibelius. I think it might be underrated or at least too easily dismissed by some... but I've always found it very gratifying. 50th percentile, at the very least. (That somehow sounds less appreciative than I want it to...)
A Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Ah.... the wonder of differing taste! I would go Berglund/Bournemouth EVERY TIME over Berglund/COE precisely because by this 3rd cycle I think Berglund's over-thought his whole approach to Sibelius. It IS very distinctive but in a self-conscious, need to be different kind of way. Ashkenazy is good because its Decca engineering and Philharmonia playing but he is not that distinctive an interpreter. Others to consider - real left field here is Leaper on Naxos - available very cheaply so worth a punt or Sanderling on Brilliant or Bernstein or Ormandy on Sony (Ormandy never recorded a complete cycle mind....). I like Gibson as well. Barbirolli was the 1st set I ever owned and I loved it but the playing of the Halle at that time could be very fallible. Oramo on Erato is good and whisper who dares I enjoy Rattle in Birmingham too.
As you say.... so much choice!!
Not sure if this has been linked here. A fanfare review by Richard Kaplan that was available at some other sites as well:
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=27007#p269024
This turned up recently. I obtained it for about £5.00 and it looks completely new. An amazing bargain. I especially want to hear 'Kullervo' after recommendations here. It also features the Four Legends for Orchestra:
(//)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 20, 2019, 10:23:19 AM
Ah.... the wonder of differing taste! I would go Berglund/Bournemouth EVERY TIME over Berglund/COE precisely because by this 3rd cycle I think Berglund's over-thought his whole approach to Sibelius. It IS very distinctive but in a self-conscious, need to be different kind of way. Ashkenazy is good because its Decca engineering and Philharmonia playing but he is not that distinctive an interpreter. Others to consider - real left field here is Leaper on Naxos - available very cheaply so worth a punt or Sanderling on Brilliant or Bernstein or Ormandy on Sony (Ormandy never recorded a complete cycle mind....). I like Gibson as well. Barbirolli was the 1st set I ever owned and I loved it but the playing of the Halle at that time could be very fallible. Oramo on Erato is good and whisper who dares I enjoy Rattle in Birmingham too.
As you say.... so much choice!!
Leaper is good, indeed. As is Inkinen on Naxos - another leaner version... for anyone who wants to move into the other direction after having been smothered in quasi-Straussian thickness by Davis I/Boston. :-) (For my sumptuous Sibelius, I prefer Segerstam II/Helsinki.) I can see the Berglund III criticism... but I perceive it minus any "self-consciousness". Just the wisdom of age having boiled matters down to the essence. I might agree it is not the perfect Sibelius cycle -- but it is a perfect complement to any good collection. And yes, there is some good Sibelius in that first Rattle cycle. But it's not advisable to mention that in polite society. ;D
Beat me to it. I came here to make some very similar points, re Inkinen, Segerstam, Belglund/CEO, and yes Rattle too ...
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 20, 2019, 03:03:01 AM
Thanks for the link, and thanks for the opinions, everyone. Wow, there are so many choices out there. I am also thinking of getting the Berglund/Helsinki. I've heard some say it's even better than the Bournemouth set. But then there's also Barbirolli/Hallé, Karajan/Berlin, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Bernstein/NYPO, Segerstam on Ondine, etc... it all sounds great to my ears. As I might have mentioned, I picked up the famous Vänskä/Lahti as a cheap download and so far I am not impressed, but I'll be spending some time with it, eventually.
If you like
Berglund/Bournemouth (and are less impressed by
Vanska/Lahti) then you might enjoy
Segerstam/Danish RSO on Chandos (OOP I think but look out for second-hand discs) which is out there on the 'slow readings and opulent sound' end of the spectrum. [edit - see post #2501 upthread for the set.]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBeX2UccL.jpg)
Similarly or even more so
Bernstein/VPO (1,2,5,7 only, on DG).
For a good contrast - the sparser approach - I agree with
Inkinen, and
Berglund/COE, or indeed
Vanska/Lahti.
I don't really do cycles - I prefer to cherry-pick, both the music I choose to listen to and the individual recordings for each work. The main advantage as I see it of a cycle is that many do package the music very cheaply - and this is exactly where Vanska/Lahti fits in. He wouldn't be my first choice in most of the music (though as it happens he is my 1st choice, by a whisker from Karajan, in No.4). But several other inexpensive Sibelius cycles are available, in addition to those already mentioned there is Davis/LSO Live which is one of the more recent sets, I'm not keen personally but it does get very good reviews and did well in a blind comparison here a couple of years ago.
^Thanks for the recommendations. Segerstam is one I've been curious about. Do you know if this is the same cycle you mention?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514KDMqWvLL.jpg)
The original Chandos set is going for about $80 and this is much cheaper, I'm thinking it's a licensed reissue.
Bernstein is one I still need to check out. He is famous as a Sibelius interpreter, and I'm a fan of his, but I've heard none of his Sibelius.
I'll give Vänskä a fair shot eventually, I'm sure. I've been traversing the Berglund set in order for maybe the 4th time since I got it a few months ago, and I'm almost done. When I finish I may do the same with the Vänskä. When you say sparseness, I think that comes across in the music as weakness, on my end. Some of those rich textures that are one of the reasons I love Sibelius are just not there. This may be due to a lacking string section, as I've heard some accuse these performances of. I think it's also mastered much more quietly than the Berglund - not that that is a defect in itself. I've heard a few of Vänskä's later recordings with the Minnesota Orchestra, which are so sleek and streamlined as to sound almost mechanical, like a Swedish luxury car. I'll persist with him, though, as I feel like there is indeed something there that I just don't get yet.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 21, 2019, 02:41:16 AM
^Thanks for the recommendations. Segerstam is one I've been curious about. Do you know if this is the same cycle you mention?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514KDMqWvLL.jpg)
The original Chandos set is going for about $80 and this is much cheaper, I'm thinking it's a licensed reissue.
Bernstein is one I still need to check out. He is famous as a Sibelius interpreter, and I'm a fan of his, but I've heard none of his Sibelius.
I'll give Vänskä a fair shot eventually, I'm sure. I've been traversing the Berglund set in order for maybe the 4th time since I got it a few months ago, and I'm almost done. When I finish I may do the same with the Vänskä. When you say sparseness, I think that comes across in the music as weakness, on my end. Some of those rich textures that are one of the reasons I love Sibelius are just not there. This may be due to a lacking string section, as I've heard some accuse these performances of. I think it's also mastered much more quietly than the Berglund - not that that is a defect in itself. I've heard a few of Vänskä's later recordings with the Minnesota Orchestra, which are so sleek and streamlined as to sound almost mechanical, like a Swedish luxury car. I'll persist with him, though, as I feel like there is indeed something there that I just don't get yet.
I was going to suggest you try Bernstein's complete cycle on Sony, it is a fine set and was remastered in 2015. Unfortunately, it suddenly seems to have become very expensive, certainly on Amazon UK. If you can find it at a reasonable price it is well worth having.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 21, 2019, 02:41:16 AM
^Thanks for the recommendations. Segerstam is one I've been curious about. Do you know if this is the same cycle you mention?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514KDMqWvLL.jpg)
The original Chandos set is going for about $80 and this is much cheaper, I'm thinking it's a licensed reissue.
Bernstein is one I still need to check out. He is famous as a Sibelius interpreter, and I'm a fan of his, but I've heard none of his Sibelius.
I'll give Vänskä a fair shot eventually, I'm sure. I've been traversing the Berglund set in order for maybe the 4th time since I got it a few months ago, and I'm almost done. When I finish I may do the same with the Vänskä. When you say sparseness, I think that comes across in the music as weakness, on my end. Some of those rich textures that are one of the reasons I love Sibelius are just not there. This may be due to a lacking string section, as I've heard some accuse these performances of. I think it's also mastered much more quietly than the Berglund - not that that is a defect in itself. I've heard a few of Vänskä's later recordings with the Minnesota Orchestra, which are so sleek and streamlined as to sound almost mechanical, like a Swedish luxury car. I'll persist with him, though, as I feel like there is indeed something there that I just don't get yet.
That is
Segerstam I (DNSO/Chandos), which has been with Brilliant on and off (when it isn't Sanderling that they feature as their cycle; they're easy to confuse. Sanderling is v. fine, btw!)
It should all be explained in the Sibelius Symphony Cycle Survey (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
(
EDIT: Oh, so, YES, that's the one, if you were responding to
aukhawk's mention of the Chandos cycle.)
I wonder when I've last properly listened to it. Must have been a while (or sloppy). I think I'll put it on now, myself. But in any case, no, it is the Ondine cycle that I love and adore and which is, beyond my personal taste, widely well regarded. The Chandos cycle was never that well-reviewed and for all my listening (which took place after some of these opinions were already formed, admittedly) it never left a lasting impression.
Bernstein is, well... quite good in his Sony cycle. Certainly his Fourth is one of my favorites [Wagner-without-words-weird] and his Fifth is also very highly regarded; an early classic in the US. Unfortunately, for all my wanting to love the ueber-sumptuousness of the Vienna remakes on DG, they are (the First symphony apart) strange disasters.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 20, 2019, 01:02:46 PM
Not sure if this has been linked here. A fanfare review by Richard Kaplan that was available at some other sites as well:
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=27007#p269024
I know I've seen that before, because obviously I enjoy reading the whole "oh hey, Ashkenazy is consistently good and I'm surprised because I didn't pick him as the ultimate in any one work" bit towards the end.
I do cycles. Because in most cases I want one solid recording. There's quite enough music in the world to get through without spending all my time picking over a tonne of recordings of the same music.
Also... Sibelius symphonies are really done a bit much. Don't get me wrong, I think they're some of the finest symphonies ever, by anyone, but the problem is the lack of proportion with the rest of this output. Too many recording projects completely ignore everything else that Sibelius wrote. He's not the only composer for whom this is an issue, but it does seem to be a particularly acute case of symphony-focus given the range of other works he wrote (even if you just stick with orchestra).
The guy apparently has also done a survey of some other Sibelius orchestral music but this is behind some pay/registration wall or so.
I can understand the focus on recording/performing mainly the symphonies to some extent. I find the symphonic poems and theatre music/suites far less consistent. Some of this is about as good as the symphonies (e.g. Tapiola), other pieces are worthwhile but some are also rather forgettable. I am neither an expert nor Sibelius's greatest fan but what I have heard of his lesser known works overall largely justifies the focus of most musicians and audiences on the well known stuff.
It's not just the symphonic poems, there are some real finds among the vocal music I think. The Rapid Riders' Brides, Snofrid and The Origin of Fire all struck me as very good works.
I have to admit I have not heard any of these choral works (and was only dimly aware of their existence). The very genre has a difficult time to become popular, probably connected to the logistics and costs, and in the case of Sibelius maybe also the language.
Is language a barrier in Wagner?? Partly - insofar as it takes the performers 10x longer to sing the words than it takes me to read the subtitles, leaving me in a perpetual state of "Oh get on with it" ;D
Quote from: Jo498 on August 20, 2019, 01:02:46 PM
Not sure if this has been linked here. A fanfare review by Richard Kaplan that was available at some other sites as well:
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=27007#p269024
That was a really interesting read, thankou for posting. I loved his point about the correlation between Sibelius appreciation and geographical latitude. Though I don't know how well that really stacks up as the writer himself identifies with Philadelphia which in European terms lies south of Madrid.
Of course several other full cycles have appeared since that list was compiled - notably
a 4th by Berglund, a 3rd by
Davis, 2nd ones by
Ashkenazy and by
Rattle and by
Vanska, a full cycle by
Kamu/Lahti SO, plus
Inkinen,
Paavo Jarvi, and no doubt others I've overlooked.
I list below my favourite recordings for Symphonies 4-7. Although in general terms I definitely prefer to hear Sibelius performed with some Finnish or Scandinavian accent - conductor or orchestra or both - this list is notable for diverging from that ideal. In fact, having compiled it, I am myself rather shocked by it!
4th: (slow is good, these two are among the very slowest)
Vanska/Lahti SO/BIS
Karajan/BPO/Warner
5th: (happy to wallow in 'opulent' here)
Bernstein/VPO/DG
Levine/BPO/DG
Segerstam/DNRSO/Chandos
plus a big shout for the Original Version - quite different, almost like another symphony - Vanska/Lahti
6th: (still looking for my ideal - Inkinen is in the mail - in this most delicate and cool music)
Karajan/BPO/DG
Berglund/COE/Finlandia
7th: (again opulent works for me but I will hedge my bets)
Karajan/BPO/DG
Magi/Uppsala CO
Bernstein/VPO/DG
Quote from: aukhawk on August 22, 2019, 01:47:50 AM
Of course several other full cycles have appeared since that list was compiled - notably a 4th by Berglund,
Whoppawhoppa
whaaat? There's a Fourth one, really? Which one am I missing, if I only know of Bournemouth ("I"), Helsinki ("II"), and COE ("III")?
Quote from: aukhawk on August 22, 2019, 01:47:50 AM
Is language a barrier in Wagner?? Partly - insofar as it takes the performers 10x longer to sing the words than it takes me to read the subtitles, leaving me in a perpetual state of "Oh get on with it" ;D
Not always... check this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKE5B-AryD8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKE5B-AryD8)
Quote from: aukhawk on August 22, 2019, 01:47:50 AM
Is language a barrier in Wagner?? Partly - insofar as it takes the performers 10x longer to sing the words than it takes me to read the subtitles, leaving me in a perpetual state of "Oh get on with it" ;D
It probably is another reason why German (and also most French opera, but this used to be different) is internationally considerably less popular than Italian Opera. But I was thinking of non-operatic works and most post-classical choral-orchestral works are not all that popular, so Brahms'
Schicksalslied oder Schumann's
Paradies und die Peri don't fare so much better than these choral works by Sibelius.
Quote
That was a really interesting read, thankou for posting. I loved his point about the correlation between Sibelius appreciation and geographical latitude. Though I don't know how well that really stacks up as the writer himself identifies with Philadelphia which in European terms lies south of Madrid.
Of course several other full cycles have appeared since that list was compiled - notably a 4th by Berglund, a 3rd by Davis, 2nd ones by Ashkenazy and by Rattle, a full cycle by Kamu/Lahti SO, plus Inkinen, Paavo Jarvi, and no doubt others I've overlooked.
Although I am still not a huge fan of the composer, Kaplan's overview persuaded me to get the Ormandy CBS 2+7, Bernstein CBS 4-7 as well as the Karajan DG 4-7 and also the latter's mono EMI of 6+7. Together with the Decca Ashkenazy, half of Davis/Boston and a few more single discs that's plenty for me.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on August 22, 2019, 02:02:18 AM
Whoppawhoppawhaaat? There's a Fourth one, really? Which one am I missing, if I only know of Bournemouth ("I"), Helsinki ("II"), and COE ("III")?
The "Berglund 4th cycle" comment rather jumped out at me too! The Gramophone obit of Berglund from 2012 mentions the 3 cycles and references the COE/Finlandia cycle as one of his last recordings and Wiki says 3 cycles too......
Quote from: aukhawk on August 22, 2019, 01:47:50 AM
Is language a barrier in Wagner?? Partly - insofar as it takes the performers 10x longer to sing the words than it takes me to read the subtitles, leaving me in a perpetual state of "Oh get on with it" ;D
LOL, I know just what you mean, when I was young my parent used to watch Italian/French opera on the TV and the singers would be warbling away for hours with the subtitle stuck on "No", or something very succinct.
And as for Wagner, sometimes in the depths of the Ring I often find myself thinking "I know it's mythical times and everything and you don't have get washing in or answer the phone, but couldn't you sing a bit faster, or have fewer words?"
Choral works have suffered a decline in popularity simply because choral singing is not something we all generally do anymore. People like Schumann and Brahms composed in a culture where belonging to a choir was an extremely common thing.
Choral works with orchestra have suffered even more because of the extra difficulty of putting a choir and orchestra together.
But this is the moment where I point out I said vocal music, not choral, and one of the works I mentioned is not choral.
Yes I was mistaken about Berglund, his 4th cycle (LPO Live) was incomplete missing 1,3 and 4. My post upthread edited for that and to include Vanska's 2nd cycle.
Quote from: aukhawk on August 22, 2019, 11:36:03 PM
Yes I was mistaken about Berglund, his 4th cycle (LPO Live) was incomplete missing 1,3 and 4. My post upthread edited for that and to include Vanska's 2nd cycle.
I should not have been QUITE so surprised, either: It's right there, in my survey: "
I have not (yet?) added Paavo Berglund's Sibelius recordings with the LPO, although arguably they are as much an incomplete cycle as Bernstein's Vienna one, with four symphonies. You can find it here; it would have been his 4th." :D
I have 4 or 5 full cycles I believe plus some individual recordings.
Overall favourites:
No.1 - Mägi and the Uppsala band
No.2 - n/a, maybe Bernstein and the NYPD
No.3 - Mustonen and some Helsinki schoolchildren
No.4 - Mägi again
No.5 - Berglund and the Bournemouth
No.6 - Rosbaud in Köln
No.7 - n/a
The Paavo Järvi, Blomstedt and Sanderling cycles do not make best in show for any one symphony but I also have them and enjoy them a lot (Blomstedt might be my overall recommendation if you just want one cycle) as well as Vänskä's Fifths in Lahti and Maazel's 4th and 7th which are both my second choices for those works. And Kondrashin conducting 3 and 5 in Moscow (and 5 again in Amsterdam) which are curiosities that I acquired as a Kondrashin completist. He takes 5 consistently very fast, ignoring the long pauses between the final chords for example. I guess you had to be there.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 19, 2018, 10:49:18 AM
I remain a huge fan of this disc:
[asin]B00000DMKY[/asin]
I've loved Sibelius for a long time, though I must confess I haven't explored too much beyond the symphonies, and I don't have any recordings of The Tempest -- I think I need to check this out. :)
I currently have cycles from Ashkenazy, Bernstein NYPO, Blomstedt, Davis BSO, Maazel WP, Segerstam Helsinki, and the combined DG set from Kamu and Karajan, plus a few singles. Between them they cover most of the tone poems, etc. For the lovely violin concerto I have Hahn, Heifetz, Kremer, Lin, and Mutter.
If I had to pick a favorite Sibelius recording, I'd probably go with Szell's 2nd (no surprise from me). I'm pretty content with the above list recording-wise, which I've had for years, though I'm now sorely tempted to add one more and get Ormandy's incomplete set -- I'm a sucker for those old Columbia recordings with Ormandy, Szell, Bernstein, and Walter... Anyone familiar with that set?
It's a great disc. I tend to be bored by "Nightride..." regardless of interpretation but "Oceanides" is one of my favorite symphonic poems (like a nordic "La mer") and the Tempest music is probably the best of his incidental musics.
I'll add my favorites to those already posted:
1 Segerstam/Helsinki
Maazel/Vienna
2 Szell/Cleveland
Bernstein/Vienna
(two very different interpretations)
3 Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Kamu/Helsinki
4 Maazel/Vienna
Davis/Boston (love his combination of glockenspiel and tubular bells)
5 Berglund/Bournemouth
Rattle/Philharmonia
Bernstein/NY Phil
6 Davis/Boston
Maazel/Pittsburgh
7 Maazel/Vienna
Inkinen/New Zealand
Sarge
Quote from: jwinter on August 23, 2019, 07:32:07 AM
I've loved Sibelius for a long time, though I must confess I haven't explored too much beyond the symphonies, and I don't have any recordings of The Tempest -- I think I need to check this out. :)
I currently have cycles from Ashkenazy, Bernstein NYPO, Blomstedt, Davis BSO, Maazel WP, Segerstam Helsinki, and the combined DG set from Kamu and Karajan, plus a few singles. Between them they cover most of the tone poems, etc. For the lovely violin concerto I have Hahn, Heifetz, Kremer, Lin, and Mutter.
If I had to pick a favorite Sibelius recording, I'd probably go with Szell's 2nd (no surprise from me). I'm pretty content with the above list recording-wise, which I've had for years, though I'm now sorely tempted to add one more and get Ormandy's incomplete set -- I'm a sucker for those old Columbia recordings with Ormandy, Szell, Bernstein, and Walter... Anyone familiar with that set?
Yes, I have the Ormandy, incomplete set. I have enjoyed it very much and have always rated him highly as a conductor. Tapiola is not as strong as some other versions but I'd still recommend the set.
Quote from: jwinter on August 23, 2019, 07:32:07 AM
I've loved Sibelius for a long time, though I must confess I haven't explored too much beyond the symphonies, and I don't have any recordings of The Tempest -- I think I need to check this out. :)
If you're thinking about the Tempest consider a disk of the complete music to the play (not just the two suites). Some of the tiny pieces you get with the complete music are just music from a different dimension (and the familiar ones are put in a new context). (There are BIS and Ondine versions).
Talking of opera and slowness (as we were earlier), I have just remembered something I learnt from a drama teacher at school (yes, really, I remembered something from school). She said that in spoken drama the dialogue and action would happen about 4 times as slowly as the equivalent interactions and numbers of words happening in real social situations (because of having to show the actions and interactions clearly and having to enunciate to a big space instead of just to smaller circle). Opera, she said, would be a minimum of 10 times more slowly and that would be recitative or fast non-repepitive type opera. Wagner I guess would 20-30 times slower!
For the 3rd I go for real left field choices:
Rozhdestvensky, Moscow Radio Symphony
Mustonen, Helsinki Festival Orchestra (excellent sound)
Mrawinsky, Leningrad Philharmonic.
For my money, they get the rythmic intricacies of the score better than their colleagues. In their hands the 3rd becomes one of Sibelius' boldest compositions.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2019, 12:51:10 PM
If you're thinking about the Tempest consider a disk of the complete music to the play (not just the two suites). Some of the tiny pieces you get with the complete music are just music from a different dimension (and the familiar ones are put in a new context). (There are BIS and Ondine versions).
+1 although I'm not aware of an Ondine version. However, the Complete Karelia music on Ondine is one of my favourite Sibelius discs like the complete Tempest music on BIS.
Quote from: amw on August 23, 2019, 04:27:09 AM
No.2 - n/a, maybe Bernstein and the NYPD
Liverpool used to have an excellent Police Brass Band. I had no idea that New York's finest went full orchestral..................!! :)
Quote from: jwinter on August 23, 2019, 07:32:07 AM
If I had to pick a favorite Sibelius recording, I'd probably go with Szell's 2nd (no surprise from me). I'm pretty content with the above list recording-wise, which I've had for years, though I'm now sorely tempted to add one more and get Ormandy's incomplete set -- I'm a sucker for those old Columbia recordings with Ormandy, Szell, Bernstein, and Walter... Anyone familiar with that set?
I listened to the Ormandy
Sibelius 7th (final recording) yesterday and thought it a very fine, top-tier 7th. My only issue with this (and other Philadelphia recordings I have heard) is that the musicians themselves - so well and faithfully recorded - in the 1970s I believe - sound terribly old-skule in their playing styles - they sound as though, in their heads, they are still in the 1940s. Which many of them probably were, and don't get me wrong, I understand that full well since, in my head, I'm still in the 1970s.
Quote from: aukhawk on August 24, 2019, 04:43:12 AM
I listened to the Ormandy Sibelius 7th (final recording) yesterday and thought it a very fine, top-tier 7th. My only issue with this (and other Philadelphia recordings I have heard) is that the musicians themselves - so well and faithfully recorded - in the 1970s I believe - sound terribly old-skule in their playing styles - they sound as though, in their heads, they are still in the 1940s. Which many of them probably were, and don't get me wrong, I understand that full well since, in my head, I'm still in the 1970s.
Recurring - when does "old-skule" become HIP 1940's style? So if we want an "authentic" recording of say Rach. 3rd Symphony/Symphonic Dances look no further than Philly!
Not sure what you mean and in any case why that should be a problem......
It's not a problem except in my own case I prefer a more modernist sound. To be clear, not talking about recording quality here, which is just fine, but about the way the musicians play - vibrato mainly. I agree, if you want an 'authentic' Rachmaninov, the Philadelphia sound is probably right on the money. 'Authentic' Sibelius too, I daresay. But my go-to Symphonic Dances is that conducted by John Eliot Gardner - a whole different cup of tea.
Can there be anything more sublime, truly majestic and spiritual than the 7th Symphony? Yesterday I played it with the stereo at high volume and the experience was simply cathartic. This is a work of the most ineffable beauty, it's overwhelming in its supreme greatness. I must confess some tears were brought to my eyes. An epic theme that appear on the trombones is like the meaning of majesty, of something so pure and high. What a most impressive work. Now I'll stick with this symphony as my favorite ever of this unique composer.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 20, 2019, 12:47:01 PM
Can there be anything more sublime, truly majestic and spiritual than the 7th Symphony? Yesterday I played it with the stereo at high volume and the experience was simply cathartic. This is a work of the most ineffable beauty, it's overwhelming in its supreme greatness. I must confess some tears were brought to my eyes. An epic theme that appear on the trombones is like the meaning of majesty, of something so pure and high. What a most impressive work. Now I'll stick with this symphony as my favorite ever of this unique composer.
Now that you've said this, I feel an obligation to revisit it. I have never fully connected with Sibelius' 7th. It, along with the 4th, remain enigmatic to me. As much as I enjoy Sibelius, I feel like there is something I am missing on some level. I would not call him one of my favorite composers, though I do enjoy much of his music.
What recording did you listen to?
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 20, 2019, 12:47:01 PM
Can there be anything more sublime, truly majestic and spiritual than the 7th Symphony? Yesterday I played it with the stereo at high volume and the experience was simply cathartic. This is a work of the most ineffable beauty, it's overwhelming in its supreme greatness. I must confess some tears were brought to my eyes. An epic theme that appear on the trombones is like the meaning of majesty, of something so pure and high. What a most impressive work. Now I'll stick with this symphony as my favorite ever of this unique composer.
+1 But the 4th and 5th are powerful contenders, don't you think?
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 20, 2019, 12:47:01 PM
Can there be anything more sublime, truly majestic and spiritual than the 7th Symphony? Yesterday I played it with the stereo at high volume and the experience was simply cathartic. This is a work of the most ineffable beauty, it's overwhelming in its supreme greatness. I must confess some tears were brought to my eyes. An epic theme that appear on the trombones is like the meaning of majesty, of something so pure and high. What a most impressive work. Now I'll stick with this symphony as my favorite ever of this unique composer.
The 7th is an incredible symphony no question about it and the fact that it was Sibelius' last still gives me a bit of sadness, especially considering how he lived for such a long life. But it was he who felt the need to stop composing and he was a composer who never liked to repeat himself, so it's an admirable thing to know when to stop and let the music you left behind do the speaking for you.
Well, I'm listening now to the 7th symphony, Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. Majestic and spiritual are indeed words that come to mind, but also enigmatic and perhaps even all-encompassing. Oddly enough, something is making me think there may be some kind of connection between this work and the 9th symphony of Gustav Mahler, but I don't know what it is yet, as on the surface, they couldn't be more different. Anyway, whenever I listen to Sibelius' 7th, it makes me want to listen to it again very soon, as I always feel like I am not catching everything that is happening. I think it is, along with the 4th, the most challenging and intricately layered of all his symphonies... and maybe, paradoxically, also the most direct.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81bSgJqJgvL._SL1417_.jpg)
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2019, 04:31:30 PM
Well, I'm listening now to the 7th symphony, Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. Majestic and spiritual are indeed words that come to mind, but also enigmatic and perhaps even all-encompassing. Oddly enough, something is making me think there may be some kind of connection between this work and the 9th symphony of Gustav Mahler, but I don't know what it is yet, as on the surface, they couldn't be more different. Anyway, whenever I listen to Sibelius' 7th, it makes me want to listen to it again very soon, as I always feel like I am not catching everything that is happening. I think it is, along with the 4th, the most challenging and intricately layered of all his symphonies... and maybe, paradoxically, also the most direct.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81bSgJqJgvL._SL1417_.jpg)
Some interesting observations and I hadn't thought about the parallels between Mahler's 9th and the Sibelius 7th. Perhaps what you're hearing in both symphonies is a sort of goodbye or the feeling of departure between two people (perhaps even two lovers with one who is waving on a boat while the other is on a pier)? Is this too corny? But I also get the feeling of not only that this may be the end of something that was incredible and life-changing, but also the inevitability that goes along with it --- that kind of built-up anxiety and then the release of that anxiety when you know that time has come. I don't know, but I'll probably need to increase the dosage of my medication after this. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 04:39:14 PM
Some interesting observations and I hadn't thought about the parallels between Mahler's 9th and the Sibelius 7th. Perhaps what you're hearing in both symphonies is a sort of goodbye or the feeling of departure between two people (perhaps even two lovers with one who is waving on a boat while the other is on a pier)? Is this too corny? But I also get the feeling of not only that this may be the end of something that was incredible and life-changing, but also the inevitability that goes along with it --- that kind of built-up anxiety and then the release of that anxiety when you know that time has come. I don't know, but I'll probably need to increase the dosage of my medication after this. ;D
That's a very elegant metaphor for the kind of feeling that one might get from either or both of these great symphonies. I don't know if it is necessarily about farewell or departure, but certainly inevitability, anxiety, and the passage of time might factor into it. It's kind of enigmatic and maybe deeper than that; I don't hear any one feeling being expressed but a whole world of sensation, and also something of the natural world that is beyond human feeling at all. And I think this is true for both symphonies but maybe especially the Sibelius. I'm new to Mahler's 9th, and like I said I'm not quite sure that I fully get Sibelius' 7th, so we can take my words with as many grains of salt as necessary.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2019, 04:51:13 PMThat's a very elegant metaphor for the kind of feeling that one might get from either or both of these great symphonies. I don't know if it is necessarily about farewell or departure, but certainly inevitability, anxiety, and the passage of time might factor into it. It's kind of enigmatic and maybe deeper than that; I don't hear any one feeling being expressed but a whole world of sensation, and also something of the natural world that is beyond human feeling at all. And I think this is true for both symphonies but maybe especially the Sibelius. I'm new to Mahler's 9th, and like I said I'm not quite sure that I fully get Sibelius' 7th, so we can take my words with as many grains of salt as necessary.
Well, thank you, I'm not sure eloquence would describe my previous post, but I know lack of medication certainly has something to do with it. ;) All kidding aside, I think both symphonies from both composers are masterpieces and they certainly leave many questions unanswered, but I think this is what good music does, it begs us to ask questions and find a deeper meaning. I'm not sure what went through Sibelius' mind when he was composing his 7th, but I can tell you one thing, I'd love to be able to tap into just a spec of that creative process and the same goes for Mahler's 9th. I heard Colin Davis in an interview call Sibelius a 'nature mystic' or something along these lines --- he walks the dark forests and summons spirits. I can't quite remember his quote verbatim, but it was quite a clever description of his music. He does seem to be at one with nature and I've seen many photographs of the man himself strolling through the woods and even admiring the scenery, but these were later photos as ones of when he was in his compositional prime aren't in abundance. Anyway, I'm happy to know that Sibelius' music still has so much staying power and that it continues to move listeners like yourself.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 04:59:12 PM
Anyway, I'm happy to know that Sibelius' music still has so much staying power and that it continues to move listeners like yourself.
And I'm grateful for it myself. I'm a young cat, new to classical music, and I think it would be an understatement to say that Sibelius' music has enriched my life greatly in the past year or so I've been listening. Enough there for a lifetime, I think, though interestingly I have known of a few people to actually lose interest in Sibelius over time.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2019, 05:03:06 PM
And I'm grateful for it myself. I'm a young cat, new to classical music, and I think it would be an understatement to say that Sibelius' music has enriched my life greatly in the past year or so I've been listening. Enough there for a lifetime, I think, though interestingly I have known of a few people to actually lose interest in Sibelius over time.
Very good to read. To the bolded text: you just opened up a can of worms there! It's interesting how people lose interest in a composer that they once loved so dearly. I believe that tastes do change as you mature as a listener. Of course, there are exceptions and we do listen to some of the same composers we've always listened to, but Sibelius used to be a composer I listened to a lot, but I haven't really explored his music in any kind of depth in years and this isn't to say I've lost interest in the composer, because I haven't, but there's just so much out there and our time is so limited. It seems, though, there have been a few composers that I have stuck with from the beginning, but there are also many of which I don't quite get into their music as much as I used to.
For most of my life Sibelius' 7th Symphony has been my no.1 favourite piece of orchestral music, by any composer, full stop.
Even so, I have always mentally winced a bit at the final bludgeoning C major statement - as a lifelong pessimist I always find such bald affirmation quite hard to take - and to be honest I'm amazed that Sibelius, no stranger to depression, was able to write such stuff. (See also, beautiful music written in or around wartime - by anyone from Haydn to Vaughan Williams - just incredible to me how that happens.)
I find that in old age my tastes have turned away from large-scale orchestral music in general, and symphonic music finales in particular, but Sibelius' 4th is still up there as an exception for me - especially the 1st and 3rd movements - otherwise I'm more likely to be listening to baroque or chamber music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 20, 2019, 04:13:46 PM
The 7th is an incredible symphony no question about it and the fact that it was Sibelius' last still gives me a bit of sadness, especially considering how he lived for such a long life. But it was he who felt the need to stop composing and he was a composer who never liked to repeat himself, so it's an admirable thing to know when to stop and let the music you left behind do the speaking for you.
Though he did invest a lot of time and effort into bringing his 8th to fruition - before eventually tossing it onto the bonfire in his garden. So we'll never know. See also, Charles Ives.
Quote from: aukhawk on October 21, 2019, 01:09:05 AM
For most of my life Sibelius' 7th Symphony has been my no.1 favourite piece of orchestral music, by any composer, full stop.
Even so, I have always mentally winced a bit at the final bludgeoning C major statement - as a lifelong pessimist I always find such bald affirmation quite hard to take - and to be honest I'm amazed that Sibelius, no stranger to depression, was able to write such stuff. (See also, beautiful music written in or around wartime - by anyone from Haydn to Vaughan Williams - just incredible to me how that happens.)
I find that in old age my tastes have turned away from large-scale orchestral music in general, and symphonic music finales in particular, but Sibelius' 4th is still up there as an exception for me - especially the 1st and 3rd movements - otherwise I'm more likely to be listening to baroque or chamber music.
Though he did invest a lot of time and effort into bringing his 8th to fruition - before eventually tossing it onto the bonfire in his garden. So we'll never know. See also, Charles Ives.
That's interesting, because I don't hear the end of the 7th symphony that way at all. It sounds like a huge ambiguity, ending on that huge appoggiatura, though I understand some conductors emphasize the resolution more than the tension.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 20, 2019, 12:47:01 PM
Can there be anything more sublime, truly majestic and spiritual than the 7th Symphony? Yesterday I played it with the stereo at high volume and the experience was simply cathartic. This is a work of the most ineffable beauty, it's overwhelming in its supreme greatness. I must confess some tears were brought to my eyes. An epic theme that appear on the trombones is like the meaning of majesty, of something so pure and high. What a most impressive work. Now I'll stick with this symphony as my favorite ever of this unique composer.
This reminds me of an intense (and intensely valuable) discussion with Brian (and others) some years ago, earlier in this thread. I had been baffled by the 7th symphony ever since I first listened to it in my teens in the 1960s, and Brian wrote down a structure which I found very helpful. I've been trying to find that list of his, and at last I found it, here:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974)
In hindsight, I think the long term effect of all that discussion has been not quite what I hoped. I think I enjoyed the discussion (and reading - and applying - Brian's insightful comments) more than the symphony, and indeed I don't think I've listened to it again during the 9 years that have passed since we discussed it. But it was the most fascinating discussion I ever had on GMG.
Interesting, and bookmarked.
I'm with Sibelius 7th and not yet too old for it. I still find it one of the greatest symphonies there is. Yummyummyum.
There is a concert of the LA Phil this weekend I am thinking of attending with Luonnotar and Symphony No. 5 but the concert is a little short of content. The entire concert program adds up to only around 65 minutes of music and LA Phil is extremely expensive so not sure if I can justify it to myself. It's a little disappointing they are putting in a long program for such high concert fees.
Quote from: Moonfish on October 20, 2019, 04:04:58 PM
+1
But the 4th and 5th are powerful contenders, don't you think?
Besides the glorious 7th, Nos. 2 and 5 are my next favorites. I never was too keen on the 4th, its dark and much more introspective nature is still impenetrable to me, but I haven't given up yet. I hope at any moment it clicks on me.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2019, 03:54:27 PM
Now that you've said this, I feel an obligation to revisit it. I have never fully connected with Sibelius' 7th. It, along with the 4th, remain enigmatic to me. As much as I enjoy Sibelius, I feel like there is something I am missing on some level. I would not call him one of my favorite composers, though I do enjoy much of his music.
What recording did you listen to?
Berglund/Bournemouth SO and this on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/vZRQh6oVI_4
To my ears, this performance sounded very clear, cristalline, majestic, rightly paced. It should be a real treat to be on that concert!
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 21, 2019, 02:33:49 PM
Berglund/Bournemouth SO and this on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/vZRQh6oVI_4
To my ears, this performance sounded very clear, cristalline, majestic, rightly paced. It should be a real treat to be on that concert!
Awesome, Berglund/Bournemouth SO is the one I have and like a lot. I have also the Vänskä/Lahti but am not convinced on it. I'm debating listening again to Sibelius' 7th again tonight.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 21, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
Besides the glorious 7th, Nos. 2 and 5 are my next favorites. I never was too keen on the 4th, its dark and much more introspective nature is still impenetrable to me, but I haven't given up yet. I hope at any moment it clicks on me.
The 4th is the only Sibelius symphony in which I actually shed several tears to. I kid you not. The slow third movement,
Il tempo largo, had a huge effect on me whenever I finally just succumbed to the music. I could hear genuine sadness in this particular movement. But the symphony isn't all darkness, the last movement (
Allegro) provides some relief and ends the symphony beautifully. Given the circumstances surrounding his personal life at the time, it's a wonder this symphony ever saw the light of day to begin with, but I'm glad it did, it's a favorite of mine.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on October 21, 2019, 01:57:42 AM
This reminds me of an intense (and intensely valuable) discussion with Brian (and others) some years ago, earlier in this thread. I had been baffled by the 7th symphony ever since I first listened to it in my teens in the 1960s, and Brian wrote down a structure which I found very helpful. I've been trying to find that list of his, and at last I found it, here:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974)
But it was the most fascinating discussion I ever had on GMG.
Thanks for posting that link. I started reading it (page 35) and didn't stop until I realized I'd read up to page 100 and it was 5 a.m...way past my bedtime ;D Fascinating indeed. One of the great threads that inspired some great discussion, great arguments. It was quite a nostalgic trip, and a sad one too, noticing all the very active members then who are no longer with us (e.g., DavidRoss, DavidW, Scots John, Opus106, Octave).
Sarge
The 7th is in my opinion the greatest 20c symphony with the 4th not far behind. I have special feelings for the 2nd as the first symphony I heard which sold me on the composer. I very much like the two Cinderella symphonies, the 3rd & 6th in equal measure. For some reason I am now bored by the 5th and not really got around to get to know the 1st.
Quote from: Irons on October 22, 2019, 07:01:53 AM
The 7th is in my opinion the greatest 20c symphony with the 4th not far behind. I have special feelings for the 2nd as the first symphony I heard which sold me on the composer. I very much like the two Cinderella symphonies, the 3rd & 6th in equal measure. For some reason I am now bored by the 5th and not really got around to get to know the 1st.
Cinderella symphonies?
I just bought the Karajan 2CD with symphonies 4 through 7. Excited to hear it. I reckon he may be able to help me come around on some of the more difficult symphonies.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 07:31:47 AM
Cinderella symphonies?
I just bought the Karajan 2CD with symphonies 4 through 7. Excited to hear it. I reckon he may be able to help me come around on some of the more difficult symphonies.
Of all the symphonies, the 6th was the most difficult for me to crack, but when I did, a whole world opened up to me. I'm reminded here of Sibelius' own quotes regarding the 6th: "(The Sixth Symphony) always reminds me of the scent of the first snow," but also this, "Rage and passion (...) are utterly essential in it, but it is supported by undercurrents deep under the surface of the music."
Some invaluable information found here:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_06.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_06.htm)
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 22, 2019, 06:01:51 AM
The 4th is the only Sibelius symphony in which I actually shed several tears to. I kid you not. The slow third movement, Il tempo largo, had a huge effect on me whenever I finally just succumbed to the music. I could hear genuine sadness in this particular movement. But the symphony isn't all darkness, the last movement (Allegro) provides some relief and ends the symphony beautifully. Given the circumstances surrounding his personal life at the time, it's a wonder this symphony ever saw the light of day to begin with, but I'm glad it did, it's a favorite of mine.
Precisely yesterday I heard it again carefully. I liked it a little more, it made more sense, but it still is not as direct as the others 6. Since you mention the 3rd movement, that was the one I felt more poignant. The 'climax' on it is very intense as Sibelius knew how to make.
This symphony is, for me, like a bleak winter, one especially raw and desolate. Only in the 4th movement appears some glimpses of optimism, but in the end, there are more questions than answers.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 22, 2019, 07:38:09 AM
Of all the symphonies, the 6th was the most difficult for me to crack, but when I did, a whole world opened up to me. I'm reminded here of Sibelius' own quotes regarding the 6th: "(The Sixth Symphony) always reminds me of the scent of the first snow," but also this, "Rage and passion (...) are utterly essential in it, but it is supported by undercurrents deep under the surface of the music."
Some invaluable information found here:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_06.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_06.htm)
Possibly the reason for your difficulty with the 6th is due to the fact that it is the one that trips up so many conductors. Many more make a good job of the 4th and 7th then with the 6th.
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 07:31:47 AM
Cinderella symphonies?
Cinderella: Something receiving undeserved neglect.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 22, 2019, 06:01:51 AM
The 4th is the only Sibelius symphony in which I actually shed several tears to. I kid you not. The slow third movement, Il tempo largo, had a huge effect on me whenever I finally just succumbed to the music. I could hear genuine sadness in this particular movement. But the symphony isn't all darkness, the last movement (Allegro) provides some relief and ends the symphony beautifully. Given the circumstances surrounding his personal life at the time, it's a wonder this symphony ever saw the light of day to begin with, but I'm glad it did, it's a favorite of mine.
The 3rd movement of the 4th symphony is the epicentre of Sibelius, for me.
Listening to Sibelius' 7th again. I had put on the Vänskä/Lahti recording, but it sounded all wrong... I had to change it back to the Berglund/Bournemouth. I don't know what it is about the Vänskä but I just don't like it at all, too terse, maybe, too tightly wound. Just doesn't do it for me. I know that for many people, Vänskä/Lahti IS Sibelius, so maybe I'm missing something big that will click one day, but in the meantime, I regret having spent money on that cycle.
Berglund/Bournemouth on the other hand... this is probably one of the greatest symphony cycles of any composer ever recorded by anyone. Flawless, or damn near.
I think it's interesting how much love I see for Sibelius' 4th here. That is his most challenging symphony, as far as I can tell, and on other boards I often see people saying that they don't understand it and things like that. To me, it is the music of a mourner who is afraid of death, of a solitary wanderer in the snow at night time, and of a poor, extremely anxious guy who really needs a drink. Of course, this is Sibelius, and there is probably a world of depth on top of what I just mentioned. But these are my thoughts as of now.
I have some equally purple prose for the 7th symphony as of now but will spare my fellow GMGers for now. :P
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 22, 2019, 08:51:14 AM
Precisely yesterday I heard it again carefully. I liked it a little more, it made more sense, but it still is not as direct as the others 6. Since you mention the 3rd movement, that was the one I felt more poignant. The 'climax' on it is very intense as Sibelius knew how to make.
This symphony is, for me, like a bleak winter, one especially raw and desolate. Only in the 4th movement appears some glimpses of optimism, but in the end, there are more questions than answers.
Perhaps that's what I love about the 4th. It's more like a journey than a destination. Some things in life aren't black/white and the same applies in music. I actually would rather be left with questions than have all the answers. It makes for a more interesting musical experience for me. I think, in time, you'll come to appreciate it, but you have to remember the circumstances it was composed under. It wasn't a particular happy time for the composer and I know that this is something that is extramusical and has little to do with your actual enjoyment of the music, but it doesn't hurt to know what the composer was going through at the time of composition as I do believe it gives the listener a bit more information and something to chew on or mull over instead of just writing the symphony off altogether.
Quote from: aukhawk on October 22, 2019, 02:16:07 PM
The 3rd movement of the 4th symphony is the epicentre of Sibelius, for me.
I'm inclined to agree that this movement is the essence of who he was.
I think #4 and #7 are in some ways both the most challenging and the most convincing. The 4th because of its bleakness, the 7th because of the strange one-movement form (and emotional ambiguity). OTOH #3 and also #6 seem hard to get for many because they seem so detached, especially the former. Recall that Karajan and I think also Ormandy never conducted the 3rd because they admitted that they "didn't get it".
#4 is also my favourite. Which I'm sure I've said before.
My evolution was pretty straight forward: It started with the Second, which was the first I heard live and the first I had on record. And which happens to be the most conventional. I loved the performance and I played the hell out of the CD. And then I worked my way through, loving it more or less along the way, except for the Fourth, which proved elusive for many, many years -- and to some extent still is.
I do love the 7th, though... and I think that love came pretty soon after the 2nd. What an ending. What conciseness. It's like I'm floating, constantly, listening to the music. The Sixth you hear less often in concert, but when it's performed, it really works. Loved this concert (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html)), with Vanska substituting for Davis (who would subsequently never conduct the LSO again and died some five months later) and Kavakos: All-Sibelius at the Barbican.
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 23, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
My evolution was pretty straight forward: It started with the Second, which was the first I heard live and the first I had on record. And which happens to be the most conventional. I loved the performance and I played the hell out of the CD. And then I worked my way through, loving it more or less along the way, except for the Fourth, which proved elusive for many, many years -- and to some extent still is.
I do love the 7th, though... and I think that love came pretty soon after the 2nd. What an ending. What conciseness. It's like I'm floating, constantly, listening to the music. The Sixth you hear less often in concert, but when it's performed, it really works. Loved this concert (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/12/london-town-sibelius-lovers-frozen-dream.html)), with Vanska substituting for Davis (who would subsequently never conduct the LSO again and died some five months later) and Kavakos: All-Sibelius at the Barbican.
My own
Sibelius journey was broadly similar.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
I can listen to Sibelius any time. He's just that kind of composer. But, yes, there's a certain wintry quality to much of Sibelius' music that's undeniable, but I often wonder if it's just the listener adding their own imagery or does the sound of his music seem to naturally evoke the homeland of the composer? Perhaps this would be better suited for the Sibelius thread...
To resume a conversation from the Schnittke thread... certain Sibelius symphonies are just the essence of winter. The 6th, the 4th, the 7th, and perhaps even the 2nd. Perhaps I am projecting here, but to me the evocation is undeniable. I can almost see the wintry landscapes in the music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 01, 2019, 08:14:59 AM
To resume a conversation from the Schnittke thread... certain Sibelius symphonies are just the essence of winter. The 6th, the 4th, the 7th, and perhaps even the 2nd. Perhaps I am projecting here, but to me the evocation is undeniable. I can almost see the wintry landscapes in the music.
I can certainly
hear those snowscapes in his music as well but I think it's because of the musical language he used and the way the music is expressed. Simon Rattle once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that "There's not a wasted note in Sibelius' music. Once he's said what he needs to say, the music just stops." I think this speaks clearly of the character that's behind the music as well. A man that didn't mince words and expressed himself as clearly as possible. There's a lot to admire in someone who speaks in this manner. I also think his music just has that Nordic sound. Lots of silences and slow-moving harmonies. It really is music unlike any I've heard before. He's one of my all-time favorite composers and an early discovery for me.
I've been listening to Berglund's Bournemouth set (the hybrid SACD issued box set) and have been completely enthralled by it. This could become my reference symphony cycle.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 03, 2019, 06:34:12 AM
I've been listening to Berglund's Bournemouth set (the hybrid SACD issued box set) and have been completely enthralled by it. This could become my reference symphony cycle.
It's excellent John. Better than the Helsinki one I think.
Cool
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 03, 2019, 01:38:47 PM
Cool
Yes, very cool 8)
I love the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle. It was my first and, as of yet, only complete Sibelius cycle. I don't see a time coming that it will be replaced as my "reference" set. That being said, I am hungry lately for other sets to complement it. Lately I have been more than satisfied with a few of the Naxos discs, Petri Sakari conducting the Iceland Symphony Orchestra. Very very good recordings I think, more pared down, leaner, "icier" where Berglund sometimes brings a Romantic warmth and lushness to the music (to great effect, might I add). And yet for times when Berglund is not romantic enough, I have been slowly collecting the Vladimir Ashkenazy Sibelius recordings – I have 2 and 5 and I think he's very good with both, though I am skeptical about his work with the more arcane and austere symphonies – and then Karajan, a lifelong, dedicated Sibelian. Karajan apparently conducted Sibelius' 4th for his inaugural concert as music director of the BPO, which told me a lot about him as a person when I heard that. I just got his 2CD with symphonies 4 through 7 with the BPO (on DG, 1960s recordings) but have not heard much of it yet.
Another Sibelian conductor I have been curious about as of late is Colin Davis. But his time will come, I am more curious about the Finns lately.
I have decided to give Osmo Vänskä another shot after previously having not liked his work. I ordered his recording of Kullervo with the Lahti Symphony. It was available at a great price. I understand that his recording of the Wood Nymph is definitive too. I have been wanting to spend more time with that work.
Finally, to end a long post, I have been really enjoying En Saga lately. Petri Sakari and the Icelanders are great here.
PS. I would like to thank SymphonicAddict (if I'm not mistaken) for resurrecting this thread a few weeks ago to talk about the 7th symphony, as that post prompted me to revisit the symphony which then sparked a significant ongoing Sibelius kick for me. Hearing so much of his music lately has been richly rewarding.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 03, 2019, 06:34:12 AM
I've been listening to Berglund's Bournemouth set (the hybrid SACD issued box set) and have been completely enthralled by it. This could become my reference symphony cycle.
I like Nos. 3 & 6 best of Berglund's Bournemouth cycle, and they're probably my favorite renditions of those two Symphonies among all I have heard.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 03, 2019, 11:50:12 AM
It's excellent John. Better than the Helsinki one I think.
I think so, too. It's a spectacular cycle.
Quote from: J on November 03, 2019, 05:19:41 PM
I like Nos. 3 & 6 best of Berglund's Bournemouth cycle, and they're probably my favorite renditions of those two Symphonies among all I have heard.
Yes, both fine performances, indeed. But I have been more than satisfied with the other performances.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 03, 2019, 04:27:34 PM
Yes, very cool 8)
I love the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle. It was my first and, as of yet, only complete Sibelius cycle. I don't see a time coming that it will be replaced as my "reference" set. That being said, I am hungry lately for other sets to complement it. Lately I have been more than satisfied with a few of the Naxos discs, Petri Sakari conducting the Iceland Symphony Orchestra. Very very good recordings I think, more pared down, leaner, "icier" where Berglund sometimes brings a Romantic warmth and lushness to the music (to great effect, might I add). And yet for times when Berglund is not romantic enough, I have been slowly collecting the Vladimir Ashkenazy Sibelius recordings – I have 2 and 5 and I think he's very good with both, though I am skeptical about his work with the more arcane and austere symphonies – and then Karajan, a lifelong, dedicated Sibelian. Karajan apparently conducted Sibelius' 4th for his inaugural concert as music director of the BPO, which told me a lot about him as a person when I heard that. I just got his 2CD with symphonies 4 through 7 with the BPO (on DG, 1960s recordings) but have not heard much of it yet.
Another Sibelian conductor I have been curious about as of late is Colin Davis. But his time will come, I am more curious about the Finns lately.
I have decided to give Osmo Vänskä another shot after previously having not liked his work. I ordered his recording of Kullervo with the Lahti Symphony. It was available at a great price. I understand that his recording of the Wood Nymph is definitive too. I have been wanting to spend more time with that work.
Finally, to end a long post, I have been really enjoying En Saga lately. Petri Sakari and the Icelanders are great here.
PS. I would like to thank SymphonicAddict (if I'm not mistaken) for resurrecting this thread a few weeks ago to talk about the 7th symphony, as that post prompted me to revisit the symphony which then sparked a significant ongoing Sibelius kick for me. Hearing so much of his music lately has been richly rewarding.
I haven't warmed up to Colin Davis' Sibelius. I find much of his work to be lackluster in general, though. I've just never been the biggest fan of his conducting. Yes, stick with the Finns! They know their Sibelius (obviously). ;) Have you listened to any of the Segerstam/Helsinki recordings on Ondine yet? They're amazingly good. Segerstam has the best
Lemminkäinen Suite I've ever heard, but all of his recordings are worth checking out. I haven't spent too much time with Sakari, but that's only because it's hard for me to shake my impressions of Karajan, Berglund, Segerstam, and Vänskä. I consider these conductors to be the crème de la crème of Sibelians.
Sakari has been supplanted on Naxos by Inkinen anyway. I've tried the Inkinen 6th/7th but wasn't impressed.
The Davis/LSO Live 3rd was chosen by Building a Library, and his 7th easily won the GMG mini-blind listen, though admittedly that was too small a sample to be meaningful. Again, I'm not keen personally.
I recently bought a high-res transfer of the Karajan/DG 6th/7th, in the vain hope of finding a fuller sound in the 6th, which has always just sounded weedy to me. Although differences can be seen if you look at spectrograms etc, there's nothing noticeably audible. No better, no worse. As you might expect, more fool me. Berglund/ECO is a good fit for the 6th - that sounds weedy too, but it's OK now because its only a small orchestra.
The Paul Mägi/Uppsala Chamber Orchestra version of the 7th is very good. Admittedly not a piece I listen to very often.
For the 6th—also not a piece I listen to very often, although for different reasons—Hans Rosbaud/Köln RSO usually suits my needs, but I don't think the sound is great. Berglund/Bournemouth definitely sounds better but I don't remember anything about the interpretation.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 03, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
I haven't warmed up to Colin Davis' Sibelius. I find much of his work to be lackluster in general, though. I've just never been the biggest fan of his conducting. Yes, stick with the Finns! They know their Sibelius (obviously). ;) Have you listened to any of the Segerstam/Helsinki recordings on Ondine yet? They're amazingly good. Segerstam has the best Lemminkäinen Suite I've ever heard, but all of his recordings are worth checking out. I haven't spent too much time with Sakari, but that's only because it's hard for me to shake my impressions of Karajan, Berglund, Segerstam, and Vänskä. I consider these conductors to be the crème de la crème of Sibelians.
No Segerstam for me, not yet, though I am curious to explore his recordings. Sakari is worth a listen I think. If you ever see one of the CDs at a used shop go for it. Not sure whether it's worth going out of your way to collect his cycle if you already have your favorites.
For a huge overview check out the "Sibeliusaurus" review
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=27007#p269024
It doesn't have recordings of the last 10 years and this link is not the original, but the one I could most easily find.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 04, 2019, 01:50:42 AM
For a huge overview check out the "Sibeliusaurus" review
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=27007#p269024
It doesn't have recordings of the last 10 years and this link is not the original, but the one I could most easily find.
I'm sure there is wisdom to be garnered from this post, but I have a really hard time reading such a massive wall of text. It's giving me a headache just thinking about it. :D
Quote from: Jo498 on November 04, 2019, 01:50:42 AM
For a huge overview check out the "Sibeliusaurus" review
http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=27007#p269024
It doesn't have recordings of the last 10 years and this link is not the original, but the one I could most easily find.
Someone linked to this quite recently, within the last couple of months.
EDIT: In fact, I find it was you! Hehe.
Yes, it was faster posting the link again than searching the forum. :D
It is not the ideal format and there used to be better sources but some seem to have been taken down or behind paywalls. The guy did a followup about the symphonic poems etc. but this is behind Fanfare paywall, I think. I copied it into a word processor and did some editing to make it more readable. Not being a huge Sibelius fan I hardly consult it anymore but I got a few discs according to his recommendations, like Karajan's early #6, one of Ormandy's... And I have to respect the work he did with such a huge amount of listening and he also managed to convey his impressions, criticisms and praises rather well.
I was reminded of that review because that reviewer really likes Davis/Boston while Mirror Image mentioned Davis with a rather criticial comment.
I've read it before, and another time thanks to your posting of the link ;). I must admit being in accord with a lot of his choices, esp his endorsement of the Davis Boston cycle and Ormandy interpretations (mono 4 and 5, early stereo 2 and 7, late stereo 1 and 7).
I must admit some of my own preferences come from the left field, like the Stokowski National Philharmonic 1, the Rozhdestvensky set, the Abendroth 2nd, the von Garaguly 1 and 7 for example. And no mention of Barbirolli's scorching stereo RPO recording? For shame !
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 04, 2019, 01:37:30 AM
No Segerstam for me, not yet, though I am curious to explore his recordings. Sakari is worth a listen I think. If you ever see one of the CDs at a used shop go for it. Not sure whether it's worth going out of your way to collect his cycle if you already have your favorites.
Well, I own all of Sakari's Sibelius cycle on Naxos. Very good performances, but not a cycle I return to very often.
Quote from: aukhawk on November 04, 2019, 01:13:29 AM
Sakari has been supplanted on Naxos by Inkinen anyway.
Replaced or succeeded, perhaps. But, despite your less than happy experience with the 6/7 combo, I'd venture to say that Inkinen (good in his own way) has not supplanted Sakari. Like Mirror Image, I'm quite fond of that cycle (and like him, I don't listen to it THAT often. But will NOW. It's the poor man's Vanska I, in some ways. Which isn't a bad thing.
My reference 7th, for the time being, remains Segerstam II.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 04, 2019, 02:15:45 AM
I'm sure there is wisdom to be garnered from this post, but I have a really hard time reading such a massive wall of text. It's giving me a headache just thinking about it. :D
+1
I've done a lot of reading on Sibelius in the past, but I'm not reading through that jumbled mess.
If you scroll a little down, the section for each symphony are actually not long, except for #4 they fit all on one screen with my standard resolution.
I did read the entire thing but we clearly have pretty different tastes, with a few exceptions (Blomstedt and Ormandy). My recommendations would definitely include:
No.7 - Magi/Uppsala, Szell/Cleveland, possibly Maazel/Vienna
No.6 - Rosbaud/Köln, Berglund/Bournemouth, or possibly Barbirolli/Hallé
No.5 - Berglund/Bournemouth, Ormandy 1954, possibly Kondrashin/Concertgebouw
No.4 - Szell/Cleveland, Maazel/Vienna, Magi/Uppsala, Sanderling/Berlin, possibly also Ormandy 1954
No.3 - Mustonen/Helsinki, Blomstedt/San Francisco
No.2 - possibly Bernstein/NY but I don't have strong feelings
No.1 - Järvi/Paris (admittedly this didn't exist in 2009, nor did the Rouvali/Göteborg that some people also like as the new standard), Sanderling/Berlin
Someday I should analyse why these specific choices
(The Szell is this one (https://www.discogs.com/The-Cleveland-Orchestra-Szell-Centennial-Compact-Disc-Edition-Commemorating-The-100th-Anniversary-Of/release/5054749), I have no idea why it hasn't been made more widely available)
Quote from: amw on November 05, 2019, 02:29:15 AM
I did read the entire thing but we clearly have pretty different tastes, with a few exceptions (Blomstedt and Ormandy). My recommendations would definitely include:
No.7 - Magi/Uppsala, Szell/Cleveland, possibly Maazel/Vienna
No.6 - Rosbaud/Köln, Berglund/Bournemouth, or possibly Barbirolli/Hallé
No.5 - Berglund/Bournemouth, Ormandy 1954, possibly Kondrashin/Concertgebouw
No.4 - Szell/Cleveland, Maazel/Vienna, Magi/Uppsala, Sanderling/Berlin, possibly also Ormandy 1954
No.3 - Mustonen/Helsinki, Blomstedt/San Francisco
No.2 - possibly Bernstein/NY but I don't have strong feelings
No.1 - Järvi/Paris (admittedly this didn't exist in 2009, nor did the Rouvali/Göteborg that some people also like as the new standard), Sanderling/Berlin
Someday I should analyse why these specific choices
(The Szell is this one (https://www.discogs.com/The-Cleveland-Orchestra-Szell-Centennial-Compact-Disc-Edition-Commemorating-The-100th-Anniversary-Of/release/5054749), I have no idea why it hasn't been made more widely available)
Some interesting choices. The reason
why I prefer the Finns mainly boils down to the kind of temperament they bring to the music. I do like hearing different kinds of performances like the overheated Maazel/Wiener or Bernstein/New York Phil. (Columbia/Sony) cycles, but I always return to the Finns.
Really, really impressed with the first recording of a projected cycle:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wja0TKceL._SS500_.jpg)
The 1st symphony receives a great performance, but, truth be told, I'm not the greatest fan of this work (the 2nd is where my ears begin to really perk up). En Saga, however, is a long-standing favorite and the performance here from Rouvali and the Gothenburgers is scorching. The climaxes are so exciting and the atmosphere of the work is captured wonderfully by the engineers. So definitely a win/win for this installment and I'm looking forward to hearing their next Sibelius recording.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 03:44:03 PM
Really, really impressed with the first recording of a projected cycle:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wja0TKceL._SS500_.jpg)
The 1st symphony receives a great performance, but, truth be told, I'm not the greatest fan of this work (the 2nd is where my ears begin to really perk up). En Saga, however, is a long-standing favorite and the performance here from Rouvali and the Gothenburgers is scorching. The climaxes are so exciting and the atmosphere of the work is captured wonderfully by the engineers. So definitely a win/win for this installment and I'm looking forward to hearing their next Sibelius recording.
I love the first symphony. I've heard really great things about this recording, may have to look out for it. Can't say I'm familiar with Santtu-Matias Rouvali, but that is a cool name and a great head of hair. ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 03:44:03 PM
Really, really impressed with the first recording of a projected cycle:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wja0TKceL._SS500_.jpg)
The 1st symphony receives a great performance, but, truth be told, I'm not the greatest fan of this work (the 2nd is where my ears begin to really perk up). En Saga, however, is a long-standing favorite and the performance here from Rouvali and the Gothenburgers is scorching. The climaxes are so exciting and the atmosphere of the work is captured wonderfully by the engineers. So definitely a win/win for this installment and I'm looking forward to hearing their next Sibelius recording.
But the image is so, so silly!
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 13, 2019, 04:15:15 PM
I love the first symphony. I've heard really great things about this recording, may have to look out for it. Can't say I'm familiar with Santtu-Matias Rouvali, but that is a cool name and a great head of hair. ;D
It's not that I don't
like the 1st, it just doesn't hit me in all the right spots. But, to be fair, it's the only symphony from Sibelius that I haven't spent a lot of time with (the other being the 2nd). If this recording of the 1st and
En Saga is any indication of what his Sibelius will be like, then I'm rather excited to hear the rest. Let's hope he can keep up this momentum.
For those that like Karajan's Sibelius, which recordings do you prefer? The ones on EMI (Warner) or DG? I own all of Karajan's Sibelius recordings and I'm thinking of doing some comparisons. I'd love to know which recordings are more to your liking?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 07:33:28 PM
For those that like Karajan's Sibelius, which recordings do you prefer? The ones on EMI (Warner) or DG? I own all of Karajan's Sibelius recordings and I'm thinking of doing some comparisons. I'd love to know which recordings are more to your liking?
I like this set very much John:
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 07:33:28 PM
For those that like Karajan's Sibelius, which recordings do you prefer? The ones on EMI (Warner) or DG? I own all of Karajan's Sibelius recordings and I'm thinking of doing some comparisons. I'd love to know which recordings are more to your liking?
I think The EMI/Warner 4th is the very peak of Karajan's Sibelius output. Essential. For the 6th it's a wash - better sound on Warner but I like the performance on DG. Otherwise the DG recordings are very fine.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2019, 09:55:09 PM
I like this set very much John:
(//)
I just bought this one and really enjoy it so far. Amazing 4th, and a great Swan of Tuonela.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2019, 07:33:28 PM
For those that like Karajan's Sibelius, which recordings do you prefer? The ones on EMI (Warner) or DG? I own all of Karajan's Sibelius recordings and I'm thinking of doing some comparisons. I'd love to know which recordings are more to your liking?
The EMI tone poem set is excellent - probably my favorite versions of those works.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41aXl%2BPT8eL.jpg)
Also love the Violin Concerto on DG, a very Germanic/dramatic reading.
The detail in the Rouvali recording that sticks out in my memory is the first movement of the symphony - right when the ball gets rolling, so to speak, the trombones have this delightful snap as they do little mini crescendos on their notes.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2019, 09:55:09 PM
I like this set very much John:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81e4yDYbMdL._SL1400_.jpg)
I do, too, Jeffrey. For me, the 4th in Karajan's earlier DG set captures the bleakness and general grim mood of this symphony like no other. The only performance I didn't think much of in this set was
Tapiola and this is because I don't think Karajan dug deep enough into the work. Even though the audio quality is much better, one listen to Segerstam's performance on Ondine and this was all it took for me to realize just how incredible this work truly is. No other performance has done that for me (yet).
Quote from: aukhawk on November 13, 2019, 11:58:26 PM
I think The EMI/Warner 4th is the very peak of Karajan's Sibelius output. Essential. For the 6th it's a wash - better sound on Warner but I like the performance on DG. Otherwise the DG recordings are very fine.
I think Karajan's 4th on EMI is much warmer in mood than earlier DG performance. I like the DG performance much better because of the icy silence that was able to get from the music --- you can almost feel the chill coming off the instruments. This, of course, isn't to say the EMI doesn't have it's own merits, but the DG performance still mesmerizes me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:15:18 AM
I do, too, Jeffrey. For me, the 4th in Karajan's earlier DG set captures the bleakness and general grim mood of this symphony like no other. The only performance I didn't think much of in this set was Tapiola and this is because I don't think Karajan dug deep enough into the work. Even though the audio quality is much better, one listen to Segerstam's performance on Ondine and this was all it took for me to realize just how incredible this work truly is. No other performance has done that for me (yet).
Karajan's 'Tapiola' is very good but perhaps not great. I remember being very impressed with Segerstam's recordings of the work, including the earlier release, coupled with Symphony No.3 on Chandos I think. Berglund's Philharmonia performance on EMI is, in its rather undersated way, very moving as well.
Following the recommendation from Mirror Image, I gave to Voces intimae quartet a listen from this recording:
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/825646662999.jpg)
I can't understand how I had overlooked this so eloquent work. It's much more memorable and intense than I had thought of at first. The Sibelius trademarks are undoubtedly there. The heartfelt 3rd movement is the core of the piece, supremely poetic.
Now I remembered that my introduction to this work was through the Emerson SQ on DG. Definitely this stuff doesn't seem to be of their interpretative affinity because the recording I listened to was much more akin to the Sibelius idiom. It looked like they breathed and understood that music perfectly.
Many thanks to Mirror Image to suggest this wonderful piece. I really enjoyed this.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on November 14, 2019, 04:31:48 PM
Following the recommendation from Mirror Image, I gave to Voces intimae quartet a listen from this recording:
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/825646662999.jpg)
I can't understand how I had overlooked this so eloquent work. It's much more memorable and intense than I had thought of at first. The Sibelius trademarks are undoubtedly there. The heartfelt 3rd movement is the core of the piece, supremely poetic.
Now I remembered that my introduction to this work was through the Emerson SQ on DG. Definitely this stuff doesn't seem to be of their interpretative affinity because the recording I listened to was much more akin to the Sibelius idiom. It looked like they breathed and understood that music perfectly.
Many thanks to Mirror Image to suggest this wonderful piece. I really enjoyed this.
Excellent to read, but I hope you can revisit this work and listen the Sibelius Academy Quartet's performance of
Voces intimae. That set you posted above contains the newer performance from the New Helsinki Quartet and it's not as good as the Sibelius Academy Quartet's performance, IMHO. Do try to listen to Tempera Quartet and the Gabrieli Quartet as well. You will find these three performances right up your alley. Anyway, I'm happy you gave this work another shot --- yes, that Emerson Quartet performance wasn't very good at all. They definitely don't really show much interest in Sibelius' idiom.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 14, 2019, 09:58:26 AM
Karajan's 'Tapiola' is very good but perhaps not great. I remember being very impressed with Segerstam's recordings of the work, including the earlier release, coupled with Symphony No.3 on Chandos I think. Berglund's Philharmonia performance on EMI is, in its rather undersated way, very moving as well.
Yes, indeed. I like Berglund's Bournemouth performance a lot. I don't believe I heard his Philharmonia performance, but I know I own it. I've heard so much that I tend to forget what I've heard and what I haven't heard from time to time. ;)
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM
What would Sibelius be without his seven symphonies?
How about one of the greatest composers of songs?
It's true.
So good, in fact, that when orchestrated his songs take on a dimension rivaling that of his better-known symphonic works. And the quality is uniformly high.
So run, don't walk to hear what all the fuss is about!
I wish you were still posting, DD, but I have to agree with you. Sibelius' songs are magnificent. They truly are. Of course, the orchestrated songs are outstanding, but there's much to be said of the sparse piano writing in conjunction with an alluring voice, especially in the later songs. He certainly knew how to weave his magic in these works and, aside from the piano music, this is perhaps one of the more neglected parts of his oeuvre.
Yes, I have the Krause/Gage, Söderström/Ashkenazy set that you recently purchased, and I did think quite a lot of times as I went through the set that there were a lot of incredibly good songs that should be better known.
But I guess part of the problem is simply that many of the singers who develop their reputation in German and/or French don't have the same skills in Swedish.
Quote from: Madiel on November 15, 2019, 02:26:58 AM
Yes, I have the Krause/Gage, Söderström/Ashkenazy set that you recently purchased, and I did think quite a lot of times as I went through the set that there were a lot of incredibly good songs that should be better known.
But I guess part of the problem is simply that many of the singers who develop their reputation in German and/or French don't have the same skills in Swedish.
I also own the Sibelius Edition of the songs and this is the set I've actually spent the most time with. The Decca set just arrived in my mailbox yesterday so I haven't even listened to it yet, so my appreciation of the songs stems from my experience with the BIS set (which has a larger variety of vocalists/pianists and even some different arrangements of certain songs).
Quote from: relm1 on November 14, 2019, 05:45:27 AM
The EMI tone poem set is excellent - probably my favorite versions of those works.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41aXl%2BPT8eL.jpg)
Also love the Violin Concerto on DG, a very Germanic/dramatic reading.
Man, I'm going to have to listen to this recording given your high marks.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2019, 06:29:00 PM
Yes, indeed. I like Berglund's Bournemouth performance a lot. I don't believe I heard his Philharmonia performance, but I know I own it. I've heard so much that I tend to forget what I've heard and what I haven't heard from time to time. ;)
Here it is:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on November 18, 2019, 06:06:53 AM
Here it is:
(//)
I bought that recording earlier today, Jeffrey. Looking forward to listening to it. Thanks for the heads-up about it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 18, 2019, 06:00:40 PM
I bought that recording earlier today, Jeffrey. Looking forward to listening to it. Thanks for the heads-up about it.
Oh great! Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it John. Berglund is very good in Tapiola but this is my favourite recording of his various interpretations.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2019, 12:51:32 AM
Oh great! Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it John. Berglund is very good in Tapiola but this is my favourite recording of his various interpretations.
What do you think of Vänskä's Sibelius recordings, Jeffrey? Also, have you listened to any of the works for solo piano or songs?
I revisited two of Sibelius' incidental works tonight: Jedermann, Op. 83 (which was composed soon after Symphony No. 5) and Swanwhite, Op. 54 (which is actually JS 189 since I listened to the complete work which later turned into Op. 54 after he arranged it for a suite). Both of these works have all of the Sibelian trademarks and both couldn't be any more different from the other. Jedermann, Op. 83 has an unusual structure, but there's some quite haunting music to be found in this work, especially the last couple of movements. An interesting motif that develops in this work's fifteenth movement (Lento) reminds me of a section from his Symphony No. 4 (the slow movement, Il tempo largo) and this is just something I found interesting. There's also a fast movement in Jedermann (the tenth movement Allegro molto) that I found absolutely stunning and called to mind the more freewheeling moments in Symphony No. 5, especially in the last movement of that symphony. Check these works out if you haven't already. I played the performances from the Sibelius Edition, Theatre Music, which both works featured Vänskä and Lahti SO.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2019, 08:58:06 PM
I revisited two of Sibelius' incidental works tonight: Jedermann, Op. 83 (which was composed soon after Symphony No. 5) and Swanwhite, Op. 54 (which is actually JS 189 since I listened to the complete work which later turned into Op. 54 after he arranged it for a suite). Both of these works have all of the Sibelian trademarks and both couldn't be any more different from the other. Jedermann, Op. 83 has an unusual structure, but there's some quite haunting music to be found in this work, especially the last couple of movements. An interesting motif that develops in this work's fifteenth movement (Lento) reminds me of a section from his Symphony No. 4 (the slow movement, Il tempo largo) and I this is just something I found interesting. There's also a fast movement in Jedermann (the tenth movement Allegro molto) that I found absolutely stunning and called to mind the more freewheeling moments in Symphony No. 5, especially in the last movement of that symphony. Check these works out if you haven't already. I played the performances from the Sibelius Edition, Theatre Music, which both works featured Vänskä and Lahti SO.
Very interesting, John! Thanks for the informative post. I haven't heard either of these works (aside from an extract from
Swanwhite which was quite beautiful), so I'll be sure to check them out based on your recommendation.
Quote from: kyjo on November 19, 2019, 09:05:08 PM
Very interesting, John! Thanks for the informative post. I haven't heard either of these works (aside from an extract from Swanwhite which was quite beautiful), so I'll be sure to check them out based on your recommendation.
You're welcome, Kyle. I think you'll enjoy both of these works. Please post your comments on them here whenever you've heard them as I'd like to pick your mind about them.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
What do you think of Vänskä's Sibelius recordings, Jeffrey? Also, have you listened to any of the works for solo piano or songs?
I've enjoyed all the Vanska recordings I have John including, off the top of my head, Kullervo, symphonies 2 and 3 the Wood Nymph and the Complete Tempest music. Oh, and in particular the original version of Symphony No.5. No, I don't know the piano music or the songs.
I've remarked on much of the theatre music on the WAYLTN thread as I've gone through it. The main thing being much the same observation as MI, of how different plays elicited very different music.
I'm using the Naxos box of Segerstam's recordings, which uses the full versions of scores rather than the suites when both exist (and also has various small orchestral pieces as filler). Though in the majority of cases there isn't that much music that didn't make its way into a suite. The liner notes also discuss a couple of the instances where Sibelius consciously didn't create a suite, on the grounds that the music wasn't really that suitable for separate concert performance.
The only one I haven't yet listened to properly is The Tempest which is the one that isn't in the Naxos box.
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 04:43:11 AM
I've remarked on much of the theatre music on the WAYLTN thread as I've gone through it. The main thing being much the same observation as MI, of how different plays elicited very different music.
I'm using the Naxos box of Segerstam's recordings, which uses the full versions of scores rather than the suites when both exist (and also has various small orchestral pieces as filler). Though in the majority of cases there isn't that much music that didn't make its way into a suite. The liner notes also discuss a couple of the instances where Sibelius consciously didn't create a suite, on the grounds that the music wasn't really that suitable for separate concert performance.
The only one I haven't yet listened to properly is The Tempest which is the one that isn't in the Naxos box.
Oh, you've got to hear
The Tempest, Madiel. Perhaps the greatest incidental music he's written and I say
perhaps because there's so much wonderful music he wrote in this medium. There are only two complete recordings of
The Tempest: Saraste/Finnish RSO on Ondine (which is OOP) and Vänskä/Lahti SO on BIS.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 19, 2019, 11:43:11 PM
I've enjoyed all the Vanska recordings I have John including, off the top of my head, Kullervo, symphonies 2 and 3 the Wood Nymph and the Complete Tempest music. Oh, and in particular the original version of Symphony No.5. No, I don't know the piano music or the songs.
Vänskä is one of my favorite Sibelians, so naturally I've tried to track down everything I could of his. Thankfully, most of it is found in the Sibelius Edition sets (
Symphonies,
Theatre Music,
Tone Poems, and
Orchestral Works), which I'm now the proud owner of all thirteen volumes. 8) One of the milestones in recorded history, IMHO. It's no wonder why BIS advertises their Sibelius Edition so much --- I would be proud of this accomplishment as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 05:58:30 AM
Oh, you've got to hear The Tempest, Madiel. Perhaps the greatest incidental music he's written and I say perhaps because there's so much wonderful music he wrote in this medium. There are only two complete recordings of The Tempest: Saraste/Finnish RSO on Ondine (which is OOP) and Vänskä/Lahti SO on BIS.
I'll be streaming one once my chronological listening gets up to it.
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 11:32:55 AM
I'll be streaming one once my chronological listening gets up to it.
8) Sounds like a plan.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 11:33:52 AM
8) Sounds like a plan.
Oh it's a plan alright. I've got all of the orchestral music carefully listed in order of composition. If you think about it you even know where I'm up to (if I mention Ashkenazy as conductor...)
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 12:35:47 PM
Oh it's a plan alright. I've got all of the orchestral music carefully listed in order of composition. If you think about it you even know where I'm up to (if I mention Ashkenazy as conductor...)
Yes, indeed. So since you're going chronologically, I take it you've listened the juvenilia works already?
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 12:37:36 PM
Yes, indeed. So since you're going chronologically, I take it you've listened the juvenilia works already?
I'm only doing the orchestral works in this, including vocal/choral with an orchestral accompaniment. So I started with the Two Chorales that are in the BIS voice & orchestra box, then the Overture in E and the
Scene de Ballet. Then you hit
Kullervo which is quite a leap.
I'm actually listening to some of the early chamber music and other early things from time to time separately, on streaming. Making notes when I do that, about what I might buy at some point. I still think some of the BIS recordings go too far in trying to record every single bar of music and include stuff I'm not going to buy because I wouldn't want to listen to it more than once. But I can definitely hear a point where the juvenilia starts getting more interesting.
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 12:51:19 PM
I'm only doing the orchestral works in this, including vocal/choral with an orchestral accompaniment. So I started with the Two Chorales that are in the BIS voice & orchestra box, then the Overture in E and the Scene de Ballet. Then you hit Kullervo which is quite a leap.
I'm actually listening to some of the early chamber music and other early things from time to time separately, on streaming. Making notes when I do that, about what I might buy at some point. I still think some of the BIS recordings go too far in trying to record every single bar of music and include stuff I'm not going to buy because I wouldn't want to listen to it more than once. But I can definitely hear a point where the juvenilia starts getting more interesting.
Well, I like having every table cloth Sibelius wrote on. ;) But, yes, I do get what you're saying. Much of the juvenilia chamber music is pleasant, but it got more interesting as he matured. What's interesting was there was still chamber music being composed even after this particular period well up to the late 1920s. He also wrote many solo piano works, solo organ, and some choral music around this time. What would be quite fascinating to do is actually go through his JS and Opus numbers. This is one aspect I'm still trying to understand within his own oeuvre --- the whole numbering of everything whereas if you ignore this and just go chronologically through his oeuvre like you're doing, I'd imagine there being a better understanding of his development.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 01:20:51 PM
Well, I like having every table cloth Sibelius wrote on. ;) But, yes, I do get what you're saying. Much of the juvenilia chamber music is pleasant, but it got more interesting as he matured. What's interesting was there was still chamber music being composed even after this particular period well up to the late 1920s. He also wrote many solo piano works, solo organ, and some choral music around this time. What would be quite fascinating to do is actually go through his JS and Opus numbers. This is one aspect I'm still trying to understand within his own oeuvre --- the whole numbering of everything whereas if you ignore this and just go chronologically through his oeuvre like you're doing, I'd imagine there being a better understanding of his development.
The JS list is just alphabetical, but it's based on whatever language the title is in.
The first half of the opuses, until about the Violin Concerto, is a mess because Sibelius kept changing his mind about which works deserved an opus number and then he would use a new work to plug the gap he had left. Apparently there's one research book that documents all the known versions of the opus list, one day I'll see if the national library has it.
But ironically the best way of building a chronology is from the booklets of the BIS boxes. 12 out of 13 boxes, the booklet was easily available online and the discs are chronological within each genre.
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 02:47:36 PM
The JS list is just alphabetical, but it's based on whatever language the title is in.
The first half of the opuses, until about the Violin Concerto, is a mess because Sibelius kept changing his mind about which works deserved an opus number and then he would use a new work to plug the gap he had left. Apparently there's one research book that documents all the known versions of the opus list, one day I'll see if the national library has it.
But ironically the best way of building a chronology is from the booklets of the BIS boxes. 12 out of 13 boxes, the booklet was easily available online and the discs are chronological within each genre.
Yes, that's one thing that has bugged me about Sibelius' opus listing. I have a general idea of when something was composed just based off of hearing the work, so perhaps I shouldn't bother myself with opus numbers and just study the chronological order of his oeuvre. That book that documents of all his opuses and lists them sounds pretty interesting. I might have to look into that as well.
At some point I did read about some of the works that used to have an opus number and lost it, but I'm not sure where. Suspect Google Books led me to something?
I have Word documents for a number of different composers as I try to understand what they wrote and when and what's available in recordings and which recordings I should buy.
Sibelius has by far the longest documentation!
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 03:13:44 PM
Yes, that's one thing that has bugged me about Sibelius' opus listing. I have a general idea of when something was composed just based off of hearing the work, so perhaps I shouldn't bother myself with opus numbers and just study the chronological order of his oeuvre. That book that documents of all his opuses and lists them sounds pretty interesting. I might have to look into that as well.
I think chronology makes more sense than opus order. Think Dvorak, wasn't it completely useless since publication came out of composition order so you might have stuff like Dvorak Symphony No. 9 original score says No. 8, No. 6 is listed as No. 5, etc. His No. 6 was No. 1. It is super confusing! I think the same i the case with Sibelius though not as bad.
Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2019, 04:22:46 PM
At some point I did read about some of the works that used to have an opus number and lost it, but I'm not sure where. Suspect Google Books led me to something?
I have Word documents for a number of different composers as I try to understand what they wrote and when and what's available in recordings and which recordings I should buy.
Sibelius has by far the longest documentation!
I don't doubt that for a second.
Quote from: relm1 on November 20, 2019, 04:23:26 PM
I think chronology makes more sense than opus order. Think Dvorak, wasn't it completely useless since publication came out of composition order so you might have stuff like Dvorak Symphony No. 9 original score says No. 8, No. 6 is listed as No. 5, etc. His No. 6 was No. 1. It is super confusing! I think the same is the case with Sibelius though not as bad.
Yes! Dvořák is a whole other problem altogether. I'm not as disciplined of a listener as Madiel, so I doubt I'd ever be able to do some kind of strict listening. I'm sure he gets a better understanding of the gradual change in Sibelius' music, but if we look at his music chronologically, it's much easier to decipher the direction he's seemed to be heading in.
Re: Vänskä, I have been re-evaluating him as of late. I was not at all impressed with his cycle of the symphonies with the Lahti SO. I just could never get into it. I think it pales in comparison to the Berglund/Bournemouth. That being said, I have been listening to Vänskä's recording of Kullervo with the Lahti SO as well as a disc on BIS called Spirit of Nature, a rough translation of Luonnotar, which contains that work and several other shorter orchestral and vocal works. That CD is just amazing. I love all of the pieces on it. He plays these lesser known Sibelius works in a way that makes them sound like major works. So my current opinion on Vänskä is that he is a great interpreter who is at his best in Sibelius' lesser known works. As for the symphonies, I still prefer Berglund as well as Petri Sakari whose Iceland Symphony Orchestra recordings are just fantastic. But I suspect I will be revisiting the Vänskä/Lahti symphony cycle in due time. Moreover I want to check out his newer recordings with Minnesota also on BIS.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 20, 2019, 04:36:30 PM
Re: Vänskä, I have been re-evaluating him as of late. I was not at all impressed with his cycle of the symphonies with the Lahti SO. I just could never get into it. I think it pales in comparison to the Berglund/Bournemouth. That being said, I have been listening to Vänskä's recording of Kullervo with the Lahti SO as well as a disc on BIS called Spirit of Nature, a rough translation of Luonnotar, which contains that work and several other shorter orchestral and vocal works. That CD is just amazing. I love all of the pieces on it. He plays these lesser known Sibelius works in a way that makes them sound like major works. So my current opinion on Vänskä is that he is a great interpreter who is at his best in Sibelius' lesser known works. As for the symphonies, I still prefer Berglund as well as Petri Sakari whose Iceland Symphony Orchestra recordings are just fantastic. But I suspect I will be revisiting the Vänskä/Lahti symphony cycle in due time. Moreover I want to check out his newer recordings with Minnesota also on BIS.
Even as much of a Sibelian as I am, I have to be honest and say that the majority of Sibelius symphony cycles that have been recorded have done very little for me, but when I heard Berglund's Bournemouth cycle it really just sounded
right to my ears and Vänskä was another cycle I felt similarly about. I think Vänskä has done well in all the Sibelius he has conducted and not just works that aren't as well-known --- his recordings of
En Saga,
Pohjola's Daughter,
Tapiola,
The Oceandies,
Finlandia, etc. are top-drawer in every way imaginable. Vänskä's approach to Sibelius is on the icier side of things and is understated in some ways, but the fact that he achieves this balance in the music and still is able to communicate the drama to the listener is remarkable. In my view, Sakari (but Inkinen as well --- also on Naxos) doesn't hold a candle to Vänskä. As for the newer Minnesota cycle, I didn't really see much of a point in it even though I own the cycle just to see if it was an improvement. Perhaps there's better audio quality involved (not by much, though), but the magic he achieved with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra remains a massive highlight in my Sibelius collection. I could also say similar things about Segerstam and Karajan as both of these conductors were, IMHO, fine Sibelians as well and have remained favorites of mine in addition to the afore mentioned conductors --- Berglund and Vänskä.
Quote from: relm1 on November 20, 2019, 04:23:26 PM
I think chronology makes more sense than opus order. Think Dvorak, wasn't it completely useless since publication came out of composition order so you might have stuff like Dvorak Symphony No. 9 original score says No. 8, No. 6 is listed as No. 5, etc. His No. 6 was No. 1. It is super confusing! I think the same i the case with Sibelius though not as bad.
Just to briefly continue the Dvorak sidebar: in that case it is almost entirely the fault of publishers (in other words, Simrock). Dvorak was actually pretty meticulous about his own opus numbers on his manuscripts and dated the scores. It is a great shame that we don't properly use Dvorak's own numbering scheme because it would be one of the most reliable from that period.
With Sibelius, on the other hand, we have a composer who kept revisiting both the compositions AND the cataloguing of them.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Even as much of a Sibelian as I am, I have to be honest and say that the majority of Sibelius symphony cycles that have been recorded have done very little for me, but when I heard Berglund's Bournemouth cycle it really just sounded right to my ears and Vänskä was another cycle I felt similarly about. I think Vänskä has done well in all the Sibelius he has conducted and not just works that aren't as well-known --- his recordings of En Saga, Pohjola's Daughter, Tapiola, The Oceandies, Finlandia, etc. are top-drawer in every way imaginable. Vänskä's approach to Sibelius is on the icier side of things and is understated in some ways, but the fact that he achieves this balance in the music and still is able to communicate the drama to the listener is remarkable. In my view, Sakari (but Inkinen as well --- also on Naxos) doesn't hold a candle to Vänskä. As for the newer Minnesota cycle, I didn't really see much of a point in it even though I own the cycle just to see if it was an improvement. Perhaps there's better audio quality involved (not by much, though), but the magic he achieved with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra remains a massive highlight in my Sibelius collection. I could also say similar things about Segerstam and Karajan as both of these conductors were, IMHO, fine Sibelians as well and have remained favorites of mine in addition to the afore mentioned conductors --- Berglund and Vänskä.
What you say about Berglund/Bournemouth reflects my experiences as well. To me, Berglund has found a perfect balance between the icy, Finnish style of Sibelian conducting (like Vänskä and Sakari) and the warmer, more Romantic, borderline impressionistic English approach typified by Barbirolli and Davis. The balance is "just right". I wish I could say the same about Vänskä's recordings of the symphonies, but every time I have gone through them, they just sound wrong to my ears–maybe it's because I was always comparing them to the very different Berglund recordings. I will certainly be spending more time with his cycle in the future now that I have learned to really love some of his non-symphonic recordings, but for now I am more than satisfied with Berglund, Sakari, and the very different Karajan.
What do you think of the Berglund/Helsinki cycle, though? Worthy at all? Many say that it's better than the Bournemouth.
I just finished listening to the Berglund/Bournemouth 5th symphony. Berglund is the only conductor to get the end of the symphony down perfectly. Those long pauses are just perfect.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Vänskä's approach to Sibelius is on the icier side of things and is understated in some ways, but the fact that he achieves this balance in the music and still is able to communicate the drama to the listener is remarkable. In my view, Sakari (but Inkinen as well --- also on Naxos) doesn't hold a candle to Vänskä. As for the newer Minnesota cycle, I didn't really see much of a point in it even though I own the cycle just to see if it was an improvement.
I would say that in his Minnesota incarnation he is a bit less Vanska-esque (in the attributes you describe) and a bit more mainstream.
For example in the 4th, his Lahti SO recording is (as far as I can see) the slowest on record with the crucial 3rd movement alone being over a minute slower tha any other conductor. His Minnesota recording withdraws from this position - still slow but Segerstam, Karajan (Warner) and Bernstein are all slower.
This 'mainstream Vanska' is also evident in the repertoire he has recorded with the Minnesotans - notably a first-rate Beethoven symphony cycle, you can't get much more mainstream than that.
With tongue in cheek I wanted to add - that no true Sibelian conductor would be found dead recording Mahler (as Vanska/Minnesota has) - but of course mention of Karajan reminds me that he was (probably) a Sibelian first, and then a Mahlerian.
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 21, 2019, 03:03:55 AM
What you say about Berglund/Bournemouth reflects my experiences as well. To me, Berglund has found a perfect balance between the icy, Finnish style of Sibelian conducting (like Vänskä and Sakari) and the warmer, more Romantic, borderline impressionistic English approach typified by Barbirolli and Davis. The balance is "just right". I wish I could say the same about Vänskä's recordings of the symphonies, but every time I have gone through them, they just sound wrong to my ears–maybe it's because I was always comparing them to the very different Berglund recordings. I will certainly be spending more time with his cycle in the future now that I have learned to really love some of his non-symphonic recordings, but for now I am more than satisfied with Berglund, Sakari, and the very different Karajan.
What do you think of the Berglund/Helsinki cycle, though? Worthy at all? Many say that it's better than the Bournemouth.
I just finished listening to the Berglund/Bournemouth 5th symphony. Berglund is the only conductor to get the end of the symphony down perfectly. Those long pauses are just perfect.
Funny you mentioned Barbirolli and Colin Davis as I never did exactly warm up to their approaches. Davis' Boston cycle on Decca (originally on Philips) is possibly the best out of the three he's recorded. I wouldn't say Berglund's Helsinki cycle is 'better' than his Bournemouth one. He's more relaxed in Helsinki compared to his Bournemouth cycle, which, for me, was more a negative than a positive. I haven't really bothered to revisit his Helsinki cycle in quite some time, but I'm really in no rush to hear it again. Like you, I've settled on the symphony cycles I like and have yet to find any other cycle that supersedes them in any way.
Quote from: aukhawk on November 21, 2019, 04:12:35 AM
I would say that in his Minnesota incarnation he is a bit less Vanska-esque (in the attributes you describe) and a bit more mainstream.
For example in the 4th, his Lahti SO recording is (as far as I can see) the slowest on record with the crucial 3rd movement alone being over a minute slower tha any other conductor. His Minnesota recording withdraws from this position - still slow but Segerstam, Karajan (Warner) and Bernstein are all slower.
This 'mainstream Vanska' is also evident in the repertoire he has recorded with the Minnesotans - notably a first-rate Beethoven symphony cycle, you can't get much more mainstream than that.
With tongue in cheek I wanted to add - that no true Sibelian conductor would be found dead recording Mahler (as Vanska/Minnesota has) - but of course mention of Karajan reminds me that he was (probably) a Sibelian first, and then a Mahlerian.
Colin Davis has recorded some Mahler as well. Segerstam has done a whole cycle for Chandos. Saraste has recorded Mahler (several recordings). There are probably more examples of conductors known for their Sibelius interpretations who have recorded Mahler as well. Vänskä's Minnesota cycle just wasn't for me and, as I said, he didn't really bring anything new to the table, but his Lahti cycle, as I've stated before, is simply outstanding in every way imaginable.
Quote from: aukhawk on November 21, 2019, 04:12:35 AM
With tongue in cheek I wanted to add - that no true Sibelian conductor would be found dead recording Mahler (as Vanska/Minnesota has) - but of course mention of Karajan reminds me that he was (probably) a Sibelian first, and then a Mahlerian.
I understand you are joking but I'll just add Bernstein and Maazel to the pot of conductors who produced great Mahler and Sibelius performances.
Sarge
For those that haven't seen this, please watch this (preferably with headphones and please be sure to select the highest quality, 1080p):
https://www.youtube.com/v/J0w0t4Qn6LY
This is such an exceptional performance that I'm thinking of recording it via my MiniDisc recorder.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 22, 2019, 06:01:20 AM
For those that haven't seen this, please watch this...
Great find, MI. Thanks for posting this.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2019, 01:50:53 PM
Great find, MI. Thanks for posting this.
Sarge
You're most welcome. I think this performance exemplifies what I like to hear in this concerto: slight detachment from the violinist, especially in the concerto's introduction with a similar approach to the conducting but a tad warmer. Also, a searing emotional intensity that come into full fruition in louder sections, which is then followed by a rapid succession of frostbite. :)
This is a marvellous performance of the Violin Concerto by the tragically short-lived soloist I'm looking forward to hearing this historic version of Symphony No.2 as well. A fine discovery thanks to this forum:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on December 04, 2019, 02:42:53 AM
This is a marvellous performance of the Violin Concerto by the tragically short-lived soloist I'm looking forward to hearing this historic version of Symphony No.2 as well. A fine discovery thanks to this forum:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=341.0;attach=61236;image)
Please let us know what you think, Jeffrey. I'm not a big fan of Barbirolli's Sibelius, but I imagine he's quite good with his accompaniment here.
These pieces often slip between the cracks of Sibelius' orchestral music - stuck somewhere between the Symphonies and the Tone Poems. But I really like the two sets of Scenes Historiques and they get a cracking performance from Alexander Gibson and his Scottish National Orchestra - but I like these forces in the symphonies and tone poems too!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sJ2kGhrFL.jpg)
I picked this up with BBC Music Magazine a while back but have only just got round to playing it. It is a sensational CD because so much more detail than usual can be heard, at least on my not very sophisticated system. I've known En Saga for about 47 years as Horst Stein's LP featuring it was one of my first classical Records but I have never found the ending as moving as on this release, taken from live performances at the proms and I haven't even got round to Tapiola yet!:
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2019, 09:24:56 PM
You're welcome, Kyle. I think you'll enjoy both of these works. Please post your comments on them here whenever you've heard them as I'd like to pick your mind about them.
Hey John, sorry for the belated response. I recently listened to the
Swanwhite Suite from this excellent recording:
[asin]B000G73SEM[/asin]
(The title of the disc is somewhat misleading as
Swanwhite is obviously not a work for violin and orchestra.)
What glorious music! The first movement (
The Peacock) was pleasant but not particularly promising, and I thought the musical inspiration picked up significantly from there. The fourth movement,
Listen, the Robin Sings prefigures the sound-world of the 5th Symphony in its invigorating freshness - it's also noteworthy for its prominent timpani part. Also, the concluding
Song of Praise is so gorgeously inspiriting! An all-around wonderful work - a hidden gem in the Sibelius catalogue for sure. I should probably check out the complete incidental music at some point.
Quote from: kyjo on December 23, 2019, 08:02:48 PM
Hey John, sorry for the belated response. I recently listened to the Swanwhite Suite from this excellent recording:
[asin]B000G73SEM[/asin]
(The title of the disc is somewhat misleading as Swanwhite is obviously not a work for violin and orchestra.)
What glorious music! The first movement (The Peacock) was pleasant but not particularly promising, and I thought the musical inspiration picked up significantly from there. The fourth movement, Listen, the Robin Sings prefigures the sound-world of the 5th Symphony in its invigorating freshness - it's also noteworthy for its prominent timpani part. Also, the concluding Song of Praise is so gorgeously inspiriting! An all-around wonderful work - a hidden gem in the Sibelius catalogue for sure. I should probably check out the complete incidental music at some point.
No problem, Kyle, but I believe
Swanwhite was written for a play by Strindberg --- the work has nothing to do with ballet. Anyway, that looks like a nice recording. I might have to check it out at some point.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2019, 08:08:14 PM
No problem, Kyle, but I believe Swanwhite was written for a play by Strindberg --- the work has nothing to do with ballet. Anyway, that looks like a nice recording. I might have to check it out at some point.
To the bolded text, my bad! I've edited my post accordingly. And yeah, that Ondine CD is fantastic - I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
Quote from: kyjo on December 23, 2019, 08:43:59 PM
To the bolded text, my bad! I've edited my post accordingly. And yeah, that Ondine CD is fantastic - I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
8)
So now I read "The Bear and the Nightingale" by Katherine Arden, which contains russian mythology. There is a Rusalka. That beautiful creature by the sea, whom you cannot resist, sometimes is to blame if people drown. Who has to have her hair wet every time, otherwise she'd die.
I wondered if the Wood Nymph is of a similar origin? Finnish mythology maybe is related?
Hey, back from a long rather non-classical listening era. The classical itch is back.
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on January 06, 2020, 07:21:12 AM
So now I read "The Bear and the Nightingale" by Katherine Arden, which contains russian mythology. There is a Rusalka. That beautiful creature by the sea, whom you cannot resist, sometimes is to blame if people drown. Who has to have her hair wet every time, otherwise she'd die.
I wondered if the Wood Nymph is of a similar origin? Finnish mythology maybe is related?
Hey, back from a long rather non-classical listening era. The classical itch is back.
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_muita_metsanhaltijatar.htm
QuoteViktor Rydberg's text related the adventures of the hero Björn in the forest, where evil dwarfs are carrying out their malicious schemes and a curvaceous wood nymph lures Björn into making love to her. The spell he is under cannot be broken: Björn can no longer love his wife. Nor does he feel like working. He dies alone and full of yearning.
So the basis seems to be a contemporary (1888) poem based on Scandinavian mythology.
There's also quite a thorough article on the piece in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wood_Nymph).
There is a version of The Wood Nymph that actually has the text recited. BIS has recorded it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2019, 06:54:22 AM
Please let us know what you think, Jeffrey. I'm not a big fan of Barbirolli's Sibelius, but I imagine he's quite good with his accompaniment here.
I've enjoyed this recording of Symphony No.2 John (finally got round to listening to it tonight). Having said that the recording with the NYPO is from June 1940 and I recall that you don't necessarily like historical performances. The VC with Neveu is very special I think and the Symphony No.2 has a great atmosphere despite a rather 'boxed-in' and constricted sound. Certainly I'm pleased to have this disc.
Quote from: Madiel on January 06, 2020, 10:40:49 AM
There is a version of The Wood Nymph that actually has the text recited. BIS has recorded it.
The melodrama version was also recorded by Warner, Anu Tali conducting the Nordic Symphony Orchestra. Quite a thrilling performance.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june2017/anu%20tali.jpg)
Sarge
Mark Elder's new recording of the 4th Symphony is exceptionally, record-breakingly slow.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZsOwq7qJL._SS500_.jpg)
I have duration notes on 30 different recordings (don't ask) and so just to illustrate how far out on a limb he's gone:
In the 1st movement, he takes 2 minutes longer (that's 20%) than Berglund/Helsinki, but he is not the slowest of all - that is Vanska/Minnesota.
In the short 2nd movement, he takes over a minute longer (25%) than the ever-popular Maazel/VPO, but he is not the slowest of all - that is Karajan's 2nd recording (EMI/Warner).
In the crucial 3rd movement, he takes over 3 minutes longer (30%) than the ever-popular Ashkenazy/Philh, but he is not nearly the slowest of all - that is Vanska/Lahti.
In the 4th movement, he takes 2 minutes longer (that's 20%) than the ever-popular Karajan (DG), but he is not quite the slowest of all - that is Bernstein or possibly Ansermet (my notes aren't clear, I think Ansermet duration may include applause).
Overall - this recording is a clear minute longer than the previous record-holder for slowest 4th - that was Vanska/Lahti.
Much of the slow pace is explained by Elder savouring and extending the many marked rests in the score - the result is a hesitant journey, almost like somebody groping their way through a thick fog. It's very low-energy stuff, almost ambient, only briefly gaining some forward propulsion at the climax of the 3rd movement and again about halfway through the finale, before Elder applies the brakes rather too abruptly (as though he realises he was forgetting himself) and allows the music to disintegrate like a slow-motion train crash.
Super detailed recording and great work by the various featured soloists.
Quote from: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:19:49 AM
It's very low-energy stuff, almost ambient, only briefly gaining some forward propulsion at the climax of the 3rd movement and again about halfway through the finale, before Elder applies the brakes rather too abruptly (as though he realises he was forgetting himself) and allows the music to disintegrate like a slow-motion train crash.
Super detailed recording and great work by the various featured soloists.
How does that compare to Bernstein's reading of the finale? It sounds rather similar as regards tempo - taking the coda at a glacial pace. Though Bernstein starts to slow down as he approaches the climax of the movement.
I used to love Bernstein's way with this movement... then I heard Sir Colin Davis's reading. At first I thought Davis was taking the coda too fast, but then I learned that Sibelius did not write any slowing of tempo into the last pages, and Bernstein was taking extreme liberties.
Today I prefer Davis's reading of the 4th to others that I had heard, including Bernstein and Karajan. And the 4th is by far my favorite of Sibelius's symphonies.
Just had a listen to the finale in Bernstein's hands - very satisfying, as a standalone piece of music.
Bernstein is far more energetic, more dynamic - in his hands the 'train' metaphor really works for much of this music - Pacific 231 style. I never noticed that before. Elder by comparison seems to have his 'non troppo' hand permanently extended, here this music sounds more like a pan of simmering porridge. The more compressed nature of the Columbia recording feeds into Bernstein's approach of course - his orchestra sounds twice the size of Elder's Halle.
Actual durations Bernstein 11:29 Elder 11:22 (there is a lot of white space at the end of the Elder recording, the track timing is 11:42 but fully 20 seconds of that is silence).
Reaching the 'middle' marked by repeated bells then a pizzicato section their timings are similar - Bernstein 4:18, Elder 4:25. Bernstein starts his huge graduated rallentando at about 5:40 and pretty much continues it to the end, so starting out quicker but finishing much the slower of the two.
Quote from: aukhawk on February 11, 2020, 09:19:49 AM
Mark Elder's new recording of the 4th Symphony is exceptionally, record-breakingly slow.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZsOwq7qJL._SS500_.jpg)
I have duration notes on 30 different recordings (don't ask) and so just to illustrate how far out on a limb he's gone:
In the 1st movement, he takes 2 minutes longer (that's 20%) than Berglund/Helsinki, but he is not the slowest of all - that is Vanska/Minnesota.
In the short 2nd movement, he takes over a minute longer (25%) than the ever-popular Maazel/VPO, but he is not the slowest of all - that is Karajan's 2nd recording (EMI/Warner).
In the crucial 3rd movement, he takes over 3 minutes longer (30%) than the ever-popular Ashkenazy/Philh, but he is not nearly the slowest of all - that is Vanska/Lahti.
In the 4th movement, he takes 2 minutes longer (that's 20%) than the ever-popular Karajan (DG), but he is not quite the slowest of all - that is Bernstein or possibly Ansermet (my notes aren't clear, I think Ansermet duration may include applause).
Overall - this recording is a clear minute longer than the previous record-holder for slowest 4th - that was Vanska/Lahti.
Much of the slow pace is explained by Elder savouring and extending the many marked rests in the score - the result is a hesitant journey, almost like somebody groping their way through a thick fog. It's very low-energy stuff, almost ambient, only briefly gaining some forward propulsion at the climax of the 3rd movement and again about halfway through the finale, before Elder applies the brakes rather too abruptly (as though he realises he was forgetting himself) and allows the music to disintegrate like a slow-motion train crash.
Super detailed recording and great work by the various featured soloists.
So far, I have disliked every Sibelius Elder recording I've heard. I don't know what it is about this conductor and Sibelius, but I just don't think he has as firm of a grip of the idiom as I believe he should've had --- his Elgar received superlative marks and with good reason, I
felt those performances. With his Sibelius, I don't really feel the music, it sounds more like he's going through the motions with no real insight on how to get this music to 'move' so to speak. Sounds like his 4th is disastrous --- I'll be avoiding this one for sure.
Discovered an interesting documentary on You Tube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N3bDgJJhnes
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=agkg89pqA8w
The daily super bargain on eclassical today is Vol 8 of the Sibelius Edition - Orchestral Works. It is largely a miscellany of shorter works but also has two versions of the Violin Concerto. I have acquired a few duplications but lots of stuff I wouldn't usually have encountered. Excellent value.
https://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge
Quote from: vandermolen on December 04, 2019, 02:42:53 AM
This is a marvellous performance of the Violin Concerto by the tragically short-lived soloist I'm looking forward to hearing this historic version of Symphony No.2 as well. A fine discovery thanks to this forum:
(//)
The 1940 version of Symphony no.2 with Barbirolli/NYPO is feverish, very unusual and absolutely worth it, IMO. Opinions may differ, however.
Quote from: MusicTurner on May 13, 2020, 02:37:34 AM
The 1940 version of Symphony no.2 with Barbirollii/NYPO is feverish, very unusual and absolutely worth it, IMO. Opinions may differ, however.
Sibelius enjoyed it, or at least said he did in a letter to Barbirolli.
Is there any recording of the Voces Intimae quartet on a string orchestra arrangement? When I rediscovered this work a while ago I was hooked by, so, why not to have a largere ensemble playing it.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 02, 2020, 03:05:08 PM
Is there any recording of the Voces Intimae quartet on a string orchestra arrangement? When I rediscovered this work a while ago I was hooked by, so, why not to have a largere ensemble playing it.
If there is, no one knows about it. It's definitely not in the
Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is 'no'. I will say that I wouldn't care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it's perfect the way it is. It's kind of like this with Schoenberg's
Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I'm not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is
bad or that I don't enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it's best to leave things alone.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2020, 03:18:12 PM
If there is, no one knows about it. It's definitely not in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is 'no'. I will say that I wouldn't care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it's perfect the way it is. It's kind of like this with Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I'm not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is bad or that I don't enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it's best to leave things alone.
Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc.
Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 02, 2020, 04:04:28 PM
Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc. Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.
I became familiar with
Voces intimae back in '09 or '10. I was just starting to get really into his music and I wanted to hear something other than his symphonies or tone poems, so I pulled the trigger on this and there was no looking back:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk0NTU3Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI0ODR9)
It's not that common to make string orchestra arrangements of quartets. Of course Barshai did it for some of DSCH's and the Grand Fugue and some other late Beethoven and also late Schubert quartets have been played in such a way. But the latter are all more popular than Sibelius' Voces intimae and it is a somewhat dubious fashion anyway.
Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.
(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)
1. Orchestre d'Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71hQS55eJBL._SX425_.jpg)
2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo) has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.
3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet... :-X
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 02, 2020, 03:18:12 PM
If there is, no one knows about it. It's definitely not in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, as you know, I own every single one of these sets. So the answer is 'no'. I will say that I wouldn't care anything about hearing a string orchestra arrangement of it and the reason being is because I think it's perfect the way it is. It's kind of like this with Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht --- the string sextet version is magnificent. I'm not saying the arrangement for string orchestra is bad or that I don't enjoy it, far from it --- I just think sometimes it's best to leave things alone.
You own that whole set?! I'm green! :o ;)
Quote from: Madiel on December 03, 2020, 01:15:29 AM
Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.
(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)
1. Orchestre d'Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71hQS55eJBL._SX425_.jpg)
2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo) has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.
3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet... :-X
May I ask where you found that spreadsheet?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 03, 2020, 03:36:45 AM
May I ask where you found that spreadsheet?
PD
You may ask, and then I have to try to remember... the clue is in 'stumbling'...
It was a Sibelius society of some kind. I'm reasonably sure it's (an earlier version of) what you can find on this page: https://sibeliusone.com/recordings/
EDIT: It's pretty darn exhaustive, down to listing every reissue of the same recording.
Quote from: Madiel on December 03, 2020, 03:53:24 AM
You may ask, and then I have to try to remember... the clue is in 'stumbling'...
It was a Sibelius society of some kind. I'm reasonably sure it's (an earlier version of) what you can find on this page: https://sibeliusone.com/recordings/
EDIT: It's pretty darn exhaustive, down to listing every reissue of the same recording.
Ah! I had forgotten about that website/society! I do recall it now; I clicked on the "About" and recognized the picture of their get-together. :) I'll bookmark it.
Thank you!
PD
Quote from: Madiel on December 03, 2020, 01:15:29 AM
Thanks to a huge spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings I stumbled across a few years ago... you're in luck.
(The BIS Sibelius Edition only has things that Sibelius himself did, not arrangements that others did.)
1. Orchestre d'Auvergne, conductor Roberto Forés Veses, record label Aparté, catalogue number AP 139. Released 2017 apparently. Clearly available as I found it on Amazon.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71hQS55eJBL._SX425_.jpg)
2. Helsinki Conservatory Chamber Orchestra (conductor Pekka Helasvuo) has done a recording, though by the looks of it that's a self-released thing by the Helsinki Conservatory and might be hard to find. Whether it'd be the same arrangement or a different one, haven't a clue. EDIT: Actually it looks like it is the same arrangement, because I've found where the score of Helasvuo's arrangements is available for hire by orchestras, and they link to the Orchestre d'Auvergne recording. In other words, I think it's Helasvuo's arrangement in both cases and you're far more likely to hear it on the pictured release.
3. If you're interested, apparently one movement has been arranged for saxophone quartet... :-X
Very helpful. Thank you.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 03, 2020, 03:36:45 AM
You own that whole set?! I'm green! :o ;)
Yes, indeed. :) I had acquired them over a two year period. Originally, I hadn't planned on buying all of them, but then I started to want to hear other aspects of his oeuvre besides the orchestral, vocal works with orchestra and chamber music. It's hugely impressive series and perhaps it's more Sibelius than most people want, but I'm proud to own them all.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 03, 2020, 03:50:06 PM
Yes, indeed. :) I had acquired them over a two year period. Originally, I hadn't planned on buying all of them, but then I started to want to hear other aspects of his oeuvre besides the orchestral, vocal works with orchestra and chamber music. It's hugely impressive series and perhaps it's more Sibelius than most people want, but I'm proud to own them all.
Did you buy them as individual CDs or as smaller box sets?
On LP (just referring to BIS here): I have the Complete Orchestral Works--Vols. 1, 3, 5 and 10. On CD: Symphonies 6 & 7 with Vanska and also in here (purchased later): The Essential Sibelius box set.
(https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h9891/4909891-origpic-538796.jpg) It's a lovely set (for those who either might not to want to purchase the whole shebang or can't afford to). The contents are listed here: https://bis.se/label/bis/the-essential-sibelius Just scroll down a bit (they also have music samples too).
At a CD sale, I encouraged a friend of mine to purchase the 6 & 7 one (as I loved it so much); I should have just given him mine! I forgot that I had it also as part of that set! ::)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2020, 04:21:53 AM
Did you buy them as individual CDs or as smaller box sets?
On LP (just referring to BIS here): I have the Complete Orchestral Works--Vols. 1, 3, 5 and 10. On CD: Symphonies 6 & 7 with Vanska and also in here (purchased later): The Essential Sibelius box set.
(https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h9891/4909891-origpic-538796.jpg) It's a lovely set (for those who either might not to want to purchase the whole shebang or can't afford to). The contents are listed here: https://bis.se/label/bis/the-essential-sibelius Just scroll down a bit (they also have music samples too).
At a CD sale, I encouraged a friend of mine to purchase the 6 & 7 one (as I loved it so much); I should have just given him mine! I forgot that I had it also as part of that set! ::)
I bought them as box sets, but I do have few individual releases from years ago before these box sets starting coming out. That
Essential Sibelius box set is one I owned, but ended up gifting to a friend since I started to collect the
Sibelius Edition sets. It's a great set of course, but I needed more than what it provided hence why I gave it away.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 02, 2020, 04:04:28 PM
Oh, I think it's a work that deserves more admirers, it encapsulates what Sibelius is in terms of a distinctive style, mastery in form, inner sentiments, his grounds and country's landscapes, etc. Andante festivo is a good example where both versions work pretty good IMO, nonetheless.
I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?
Quote from: Herman on December 04, 2020, 09:49:25 AM
I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?
Because there seems to be an assumption (on whoever you want to pin the assumption to is up to you) that concerts of orchestral music draw in larger crowds. As I've said already,
Voces intimae doesn't
need a string orchestra arrangement. People who are into Sibelius will discover it sooner or later --- that is
if the listener in question
wants to explore the composer's oeuvre in finer detail.
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).
Quote from: Jo498 on December 04, 2020, 10:18:02 AM
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).
At this juncture in time, a string orchestra arrangement of a piece that isn't well-known to begin with won't bring a listener any more closer to the music, because a work's success is solely dependent on the listener and their interests. If there isn't an interest there, then more chances than not, it'll remain in obscurity.
Quote from: Herman on December 04, 2020, 09:49:25 AM
I have never quite understood why this procedure would bring a piece of chamber music more admirers. Just because there (potentially) larger audiences in symphony halls?
A discussion that particularly appeals as I have taken delivery today of a recording of an arrangement for strings of a work I love, Elgar's String Quartet. I do not think it can be taken for granted that an arrangement for strings will always be inferior to the original chamber work. Done sympathetically it can in some cases be an improvement. Neville Marriner spotted something in the Walton String Quartet and suggested to the composer that the work would lend itself to a string arrangement. Walton set about the task with conviction and Sonata for Strings (I believe his only work for string orchestra) was completed. I hope I'm not committing sacrilege when I say I prefer Sonata for Strings to Walton's String Quartet.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 04, 2020, 10:18:02 AM
It apparently was a somewhat reasonable assumption in the 1930s/40s when Toscanini and Mitropoulos started doing this with some Beethoven pieces. There are still quite few people who don't care for chamber music and especially not for "screechy" string quartets.
Or maybe it was also conductors wanting to present these pieces because they liked them. Op.133 has been done by string orchestra's already in Brahms' time, I believe, and Mahler arranged and conducted op.95 (and Schubert's d minor).
Didn't Barshai arrange a group of Shostakovich quartets for strings and record them?
Yes, Barshai's arrangements and they are even called "chamber symphonies" have been recorded (and not only by Barshai). But this was certainly after Mahler and also after the 1930s ;) I tried to pinpoint when this started but it seems to have been also a consideration in ca. 1960s Soviet Union. Whatever the reasons, some musicians apparently found it worth the effort.
AFAIK those string orchestra arrangements are always worse than the originals, for instance because a whole orchestra moves slower, and is, in a strange way, less immediate.
IMHO the most successful orchestra version is of Tchaikovsky's Souvenir.
Quote from: Herman on December 04, 2020, 11:51:15 AM
AFAIK those string orchestra arrangements are always worse than the originals, for instance because a whole orchestra moves slower, and is, in a strange way, less immediate.
IMHO the most successful orchestra version is of Tchaikovsky's Souvenir.
Another good example would be Barber's famous
Adagio for Strings (arr. from the slow movement from his
String Quartet).
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2020, 09:36:42 AM
I bought them as box sets, but I do have few individual releases from years ago before these box sets starting coming out. That Essential Sibelius box set is one I owned, but ended up gifting to a friend since I started to collect the Sibelius Edition sets. It's a great set of course, but I needed more than what it provided hence why I gave it away.
Lucky friend! And that was very kind of you! :)
PD
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2020, 12:01:31 PM
Another good example would be Barber's famous Adagio for Strings (arr. from the slow movement from his String Quartet).
Indeed
I think it works better with pieces that are not as "quartet-like", e.g. comparably "orchestral" sextets like Souvenir or Verklärte Nacht.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 04, 2020, 12:01:31 PM
Another good example would be Barber's famous Adagio for Strings (arr. from the slow movement from his String Quartet).
Not good but great. The one case where the transcription is way more famous then the work it was taken from. Borodin and Tchaikovsky quartets were used in a similar way but they are "bleeding chunks". The Barber is a masterpiece in its own right.
Technically, the Barber adagio is also a bleeding chunk, isn't it? (I am not sure, I have ever heard the whole quartet...) But it is certainly more weighty than the "Bonbons" taken from the Borodin and Tchaikovsky.
A question for the Sibelius experts here.
What makes the single movement Sibelius Symphony no 7 a symphony rather than a tone poem? At 22 minutes it is the same duration as En Saga. I know the piece started out as a more conventional symphony which across the drafts eventually turned out as having one movement. It uses material from a tone poem that was never published.
On disc it is given variously one track, four tracks or five tracks. The structure listed in WiKi shows bar numbers with changes of tempi, but I have no idea for instance whether the score for En Saga could be laid out in similar manner or whither it certainly would not look symphonic in structure if it was.
Apart from the composer saying so, is there a technical reason for it being classified as a symphony?
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 04:26:35 AM
A question for the Sibelius experts here.
What makes the single movement Sibelius Symphony no 7 a symphony rather than a tone poem? At 22 minutes it is the same duration as En Saga. I know the piece started out as a more conventional symphony which across the drafts eventually turned out as having one movement. It uses material from a tone poem that was never published.
On disc it is given variously one track, four tracks or five tracks. The structure listed in WiKi shows bar numbers with changes of tempi, but I have no idea for instance whether the score for En Saga could be laid out in similar manner or whither it certainly would not look symphonic in structure if it was.
Apart from the composer saying so, is there a technical reason for it being classified as a symphony?
Mike
Initially Sibelius called the work a Symphonic Fantasy but changed his mind.
En Saga is too episodic to be a symphony but it has been claimed that
Pohjola's Daughter really is a true one-movement symphony.
I am sure we have discussed this before in this forum.
Certainly for a composer like Sibelius, the idea of a symphony is that it has a level of thematic integration and a working out of ideas in a logical way.
I would argue it's actually the composers who use multiple terms, or even change their minds about a piece, that show the clearest indications of caring about the distinction. Sibelius, Holmboe... I'm sure there are others. These composers ask themselves whether they've created music that takes the initial thematic cells and builds a structure out of them. A kind of musical argument.
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 04:26:35 AM
A question for the Sibelius experts here.
What makes the single movement Sibelius Symphony no 7 a symphony rather than a tone poem? At 22 minutes it is the same duration as En Saga. I know the piece started out as a more conventional symphony which across the drafts eventually turned out as having one movement. It uses material from a tone poem that was never published.
On disc it is given variously one track, four tracks or five tracks. The structure listed in WiKi shows bar numbers with changes of tempi, but I have no idea for instance whether the score for En Saga could be laid out in similar manner or whither it certainly would not look symphonic in structure if it was.
Apart from the composer saying so, is there a technical reason for it being classified as a symphony?
Mike
"A symphony is not just a composition in the ordinary sense of the word," Sibelius wrote in 1910. "It is more a confession of faith at different stages of one's life." Generally consider that tone poems have programmatic (story) inspiration so follow a dramatic arch that might not be the most concise way of expressing a purely musical idea. The symphony would generally have a principle idea that develops over time, a contrasting idea, harmonic significance (such as No. 7 starting in C minor and working through great tumult to arrive at C major only in its final glorious moments). You could consider tone poems as a poem and a symphony as a novel. It's possible the poem is extremely long and complex and the novel is short and lacking depth but in general a poem is more lyrically concerned and shorter and in general a novel is a work of sprawl with multiple characters, arcs, and an ultimate resolution through struggle.
Quote from: Madiel on January 13, 2021, 05:09:16 AM
Certainly for a composer like Sibelius, the idea of a symphony is that it has a level of thematic integration and a working out of ideas in a logical way.
I would argue it's actually the composers who use multiple terms, or even change their minds about a piece, that show the clearest indications of caring about the distinction. Sibelius, Holmboe... I'm sure there are others. These composers ask themselves whether they've created music that takes the initial thematic cells and builds a structure out of them. A kind of musical argument.
That second last sentence is not confined to the formal symphony.
Strauss Death and Transfiguration is structured as follows
There are four parts (with Ritter's poetic thoughts condensed):
Largo (The sick man, near death)
Allegro molto agitato (The battle between life and death offers no respite to the man)
Meno mosso (The dying man's life passes before him)
Moderato (The sought-after transfiguration)
A typical performance lasts about 25 minutes, so longer than the Sibelius and without the programme, that would read like the structure of a symphony. There are themes in it that appear and reappear.
For Scheherazade Rimsky wrote: 'All I desired was that the hearer, if he liked my piece as symphonic music, should carry away the impression that it is beyond a doubt an Oriental narrative of some numerous and varied fairy-tale wonders and not merely four pieces played one after the other and composed on the basis of themes common to all the four movements.'
It has themes worked through it. Again,reading the tempi for the movements without knowing the name of the piece, I would assume it was a symphony, but it has never been referred to as one.
I suppose the world takes the lead of the composer and I am fine with that, I just wondered if there were underlying technical reasons that the world might not decide otherwise.
Quote from: relm1 on January 13, 2021, 06:11:05 AM
"A symphony is not just a composition in the ordinary sense of the word," Sibelius wrote in 1910. "It is more a confession of faith at different stages of one's life." Generally consider that tone poems have programmatic (story) inspiration so follow a dramatic arch that might not be the most concise way of expressing a purely musical idea. The symphony would generally have a principle idea that develops over time, a contrasting idea, harmonic significance (such as No. 7 starting in C minor and working through great tumult to arrive at C major only in its final glorious moments). You could consider tone poems as a poem and a symphony as a novel. It's possible the poem is extremely long and complex and the novel is short and lacking depth but in general a poem is more lyrically concerned and shorter and in general a novel is a work of sprawl with multiple characters, arcs, and an ultimate resolution through struggle.
Thanks for that, which was posted while I was writing my own post. That sounds convincing. But, La Mer has no real programme, it feels like a three movement symphony but is not referred to as such. Do you see a reason it would not be a symphony? Are you suggesting that symphonies work more in the abstract? Beethoven's 6th would be the kind of problem to that idea. But perhaps I am reading something into your words that you did not say. Your explanation is attractive, but I need to think on it.
Mike
Quote from: Biffo on January 13, 2021, 05:02:17 AM
Initially Sibelius called the work a Symphonic Fantasy but changed his mind. En Saga is too episodic to be a symphony but it has been claimed that Pohjola's Daughter really is a true one-movement symphony.
I am sure we have discussed this before in this forum.
Thanks, I did wonder too about En Saga, though it is quite short. But pre Classical symphonies were short. I did think about looking through the archives. We have been around a long time. Although the answer may sit there, we would completely shortcut discussion by referring back. That could be saved until people active now have had a chance to mull it over.
Mike
I never really questioned whether Sibelius' 7th was a symphony or not, because the compose felt that it is symphony, so I'll definitely take his word for it. This reminds me when Vaughan Williams played back his 8th symphony for some friends and one of those friends spoke up and said it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. Vaughan Williams being rather adamant about his thoughts on the work said "I don't care what you say. It's a symphony." Sibelius could've called the 7th a tone poem, but he didn't and I think a lot of it has to do with how developed the material in the work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2021, 06:53:24 AM
I never really questioned whether Sibelius' 7th was a symphony or not, because the compose felt that it is symphony, so I'll definitely take his word for it. This reminds me when Vaughan Williams played back his 8th symphony for some friends and one of those friends spoke up and said it sounded more like a sinfonietta than a symphony. Vaughan Williams being rather adamant about his thoughts on the work said "I don't care what you say. It's a symphony." Sibelius could've called the 7th a tone poem, but he didn't and I think a lot of it has to do with how developed the material in the work.
Yes, it seems obvious, but is there more to it than that?
1889, premier of Mahler's first symphony, he referred to is as a Symphonic Poem in two parts, within which it had five movements. Public antipathy to it brought about a revision. It became The Tone Poem in Symphonic Form, Titan. Then, the title was ditched, The missing movement restored and it became Symphony in D and then the fifth movement was omitted and it became Symphony No 1. The terms may be fluid, the music stayed much the same, but those terms must have meant something to him and had there not been resistance to it, the first symphony may well have been known as a Symphonic Poem.
But I have never seen anyone suggest that is what it is, as it passes the symphonic structure tests. So I still welcome thought on how a one movement piece becomes a symphony, other than because the composer said so. Which in itself may be enough of a sound reason to accept it as such.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 07:23:40 AM
Yes, it seems obvious, but is there more to it than that?
1889, premier of Mahler's first symphony, he referred to is as a Symphonic Poem in two parts, within which it had five movements. Public antipathy to it brought about a revision. It became The Tone Poem in Symphonic Form, Titan. Then, the title was ditched, The missing movement restored and it became Symphony in D and then the fifth movement was omitted and it became Symphony No 1. The terms may be fluid, the music stayed much the same, but those terms must have meant something to him and had there not been resistance to it, the first symphony may well have been known as a Symphonic Poem.
But I have never seen anyone suggest that is what it is, as it passes the symphonic structure tests. So I still welcome thought on how a one movement piece becomes a symphony, other than because the composer said so. Which in itself may be enough of a sound reason to accept it as such.
Mike
There's no question that Mahler's 1st had a more complicated history than Sibelius' 7th. Anyway, I don't worry about such things as I just try to enjoy the music and, as I said, if the composer felt that it's a symphony, his reasoning should good enough for anyone. Questioning it will only lead you to a dead-end.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2021, 08:27:23 AM
There's no question that Mahler's 1st had a more complicated history than Sibelius' 7th. Anyway, I don't worry about such things as I just try to enjoy the music and, as I said, if the composer felt that it's a symphony, his reasoning should good enough for anyone. Questioning it will only lead you to a dead-end.
Well, well, that's me told.
Anyone else care to expand on the technical issues, I am keen to learn.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 06:16:02 AM
That second last sentence is not confined to the formal symphony.
Strauss Death and Transfiguration is structured as follows
There are four parts (with Ritter's poetic thoughts condensed):
Largo (The sick man, near death)
Allegro molto agitato (The battle between life and death offers no respite to the man)
Meno mosso (The dying man's life passes before him)
Moderato (The sought-after transfiguration)
A typical performance lasts about 25 minutes, so longer than the Sibelius and without the programme, that would read like the structure of a symphony. There are themes in it that appear and reappear.
For Scheherazade Rimsky wrote: 'All I desired was that the hearer, if he liked my piece as symphonic music, should carry away the impression that it is beyond a doubt an Oriental narrative of some numerous and varied fairy-tale wonders and not merely four pieces played one after the other and composed on the basis of themes common to all the four movements.'
It has themes worked through it. Again,reading the tempi for the movements without knowing the name of the piece, I would assume it was a symphony, but it has never been referred to as one.
I suppose the world takes the lead of the composer and I am fine with that, I just wondered if there were underlying technical reasons that the world might not decide otherwise.
Sorry, but how does this relate to what I said? The fact that there are themes that appear and disappear is not germane to what I said about themes. How do the themes relate to each other? How are they developed?
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 09:09:52 AM
Well, well, that's me told.
Anyone else care to expand on the technical issues, I am keen to learn.
Mike
My point is whether you believe it to be a symphony or not will not change your mind about the music itself. Anyway, this should be of help:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm)
The idea of a composition in a single movement being nevertheless called a symphony was not new to Sibelius; in 1906 Schoenberg wrote his first Chamber Symphony in one movement, Franz Schreker following with his own Chamber Symphony in one movement in 1916, and Karol Szymanowski completing his one-movement Third Symphony also in 1916. The earliest (post-Haydn) symphony in multiple movements all played attacca, essentially forming one continuous movement, is of course Schumann's Fourth Symphony from 1841, initially titled "Symphonic Fantasia", where all four movements also share thematic material, but this kind of experimentation with symphonic form did not really take off until the 20th century; e.g. Nielsen's Fourth Symphony (1916) is in four linked movements sharing thematic material, Zemlinsky's Lyrische Symphonie (1923) in seven linked movements, Scriabin's Third Symphony "The Divine Poem" (1902) in three linked movements. And Scriabin's Fourth (1908) and Fifth Symphonies (1911) are both in one movement, although Scriabin himself dithered over whether to call them symphonies or tone poems.
Essentially this was a time period when the distinctions between symphonies and tone poems were beginning to erode, and composers were developing radically different conceptions of symphonic form; including applying the title to works for small chamber ensemble (as small as seven players in Gavriil Popov's Chamber Symphony of 1927) as well as works in one movement or multiple linked movements, works as long as two hours (Havergal Brian's First Symphony of 1927) or as short as ten minutes (Anton Webern's Symphony of 1928), et cetera. In this artistic context Sibelius's Seventh Symphony (1924) fits in perfectly: by the time it was completed, the symphony had transitioned into much more of an abstract description of character, rather than a concrete form per se.
In other words it's a symphony because he called it a symphony, but there is a good deal of historical context for why he did so.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2021, 11:36:08 AM
My point is whether you believe it to be a symphony or not will not change your mind about the music itself. Anyway, this should be of help:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm)
Thank you for that link. I feel that you have yourself proved that there is more to it than, because he said so and the link outlines the thematic constructions that probably lead him to say so.
The idea of my broaching this was to open a discussion, and not to close a book.
Mike
Quote from: amw on January 13, 2021, 12:16:09 PM
The idea of a composition in a single movement being nevertheless called a symphony was not new to Sibelius; in 1906 Schoenberg wrote his first Chamber Symphony in one movement, Franz Schreker following with his own Chamber Symphony in one movement in 1916, and Karol Szymanowski completing his one-movement Third Symphony also in 1916. The earliest (post-Haydn) symphony in multiple movements all played attacca, essentially forming one continuous movement, is of course Schumann's Fourth Symphony from 1841, initially titled "Symphonic Fantasia", where all four movements also share thematic material, but this kind of experimentation with symphonic form did not really take off until the 20th century; e.g. Nielsen's Fourth Symphony (1916) is in four linked movements sharing thematic material, Zemlinsky's Lyrische Symphonie (1923) in seven linked movements, Scriabin's Third Symphony "The Divine Poem" (1902) in three linked movements. And Scriabin's Fourth (1908) and Fifth Symphonies (1911) are both in one movement, although Scriabin himself dithered over whether to call them symphonies or tone poems.
Essentially this was a time period when the distinctions between symphonies and tone poems were beginning to erode, and composers were developing radically different conceptions of symphonic form; including applying the title to works for small chamber ensemble (as small as seven players in Gavriil Popov's Chamber Symphony of 1927) as well as works in one movement or multiple linked movements, works as long as two hours (Havergal Brian's First Symphony of 1927) or as short as ten minutes (Anton Webern's Symphony of 1928), et cetera. In this artistic context Sibelius's Seventh Symphony (1924) fits in perfectly: by the time it was completed, the symphony had transitioned into much more of an abstract description of character, rather than a concrete form per se.
In other words it's a symphony because he called it a symphony, but there is a good deal of historical context for why he did so.
Thanks for this. It is useful to receive such context. Sibelius was a difficult character, from memory, he frowned on a number of the more radical moves in music. Perhaps he did look sideways to affirm his decision, or he may have plowed his own furrow. I have found it very interesting to explore this and I will look at what is written about some of the compositions you specified.
One of the first to radically experiment with the form was Berlioz, he perhaps sits aside from the mainstream somewhat. He was a prolific innovator in form/format. I will certainly now follow up on the Scriabin reference now.
Again thanks.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 12:26:11 PM
Thank you for that link. I feel that you have yourself proved that there is more to it than, because he said so and the link outlines the thematic constructions that probably lead him to say so.
The idea of my broaching this was to open a discussion, and not to close a book.
Mike
I guess what I'm not understanding is why the incessant need to find out whether it's a symphony or not? You've heard the work many times I would imagine. Can't you draw your own conclusions about it by now? As amw outlined, the one-movement symphony is nothing new.
Yes, I see you don't understand it.
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:21:55 PM
Yes, I see you don't understand it.
And you still can't draw your own conclusions about it?
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 13, 2021, 01:35:01 PM
And you still can't draw your own conclusions about it?
Don't you worry, I have drawn my conclusions OK.
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 01:36:54 PM
Don't you worry, I have drawn my conclusions OK.
Which would be what? Do you feel the 7th is a symphony, a tone poem or just a long varied overture, prelude, or rhapsody?
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 06:22:19 AM
Thanks for that, which was posted while I was writing my own post. That sounds convincing. But, La Mer has no real programme, it feels like a three movement symphony but is not referred to as such. Do you see a reason it would not be a symphony? Are you suggesting that symphonies work more in the abstract? Beethoven's 6th would be the kind of problem to that idea. But perhaps I am reading something into your words that you did not say. Your explanation is attractive, but I need to think on it.
Mike
I consider La Mer as a masterful symphonic poem of symphony stature. This is a grey line. Sibelius' Kullervo is not a symphony. It is perhaps the grandest symphonic poem. Meanwhile there are symphonies that are of fare less impact. Think of it as a continuum sort of like a sonata for orchestra vs a symphony. They are basically the same thing but one could consider sonatas to generally be focused on a solo instrument and the symphony is focused on the orchestral instrument. There is an overlap. Some sonatas are symphonic in scope and some symphonies are sonata in scale. But generally, you get a sense for where one ends and the other begins.
Quote from: relm1 on January 13, 2021, 04:25:39 PM
I consider La Mer as a masterful symphonic poem of symphony stature. This is a grey line. Sibelius' Kullervo is not a symphony. It is perhaps the grandest symphonic poem. Meanwhile there are symphonies that are of fare less impact. Think of it as a continuum sort of like a sonata for orchestra vs a symphony. They are basically the same thing but one could consider sonatas to generally be focused on a solo instrument and the symphony is focused on the orchestral instrument. There is an overlap. Some sonatas are symphonic in scope and some symphonies are sonata in scale. But generally, you get a sense for where one ends and the other begins.
Thanks for the follow up. Once upon a time no doubt at university or music college students would have been told what HAD to happen within the sonata form or the symphony. And in examinations there would have involved much ticking of boxes by the institution. Think how proscriptive they were in Paris while judging the Prix de Rome. As creative people do, they break the boundaries. Of course, it is the music that matters, but good to learn something of the context and about the composer's thinking in the processes.
Mike
For me the distinction symphony vs. tone poem would usually be related to some extra-musical reference and especially to happenings or formal oddities in the music that would be best be explained by such a reference. As has been pointed out, a symphony in one movement was already done before and there are some 19th century works that have no extramusical program but are either in one movement with sections more or less clearly corresponding to the typical movements (Liszt b minor sonata) or very uncommon sequence of movements (Beethoven op.131, also usually played without movement breaks, I think the first sonata-like piece with all movements (of conventional types) attacca and a "leitmotiv" was Schubert's Wandererfantasie (1822?)).
Then there are pieces that do have extra-musical references despite confirming mostly to standard forms/movements (Berlioz Harold, Tchaikovsky Manfred, Rimsky Antar, also lots of Raff).
Then there are hybrids with vocal movements that are somewhat between tone poems and oratorios? (Berlioz' Romeo & Juliet, Sibelius' Kullervo, maybe Mahler 8).
Sibelius' 7th seems a clear case of the first type ("Liszt sonata") of which Schoenberg's chamber #1 might be the first explicit case in orchestral music.
Quote from: Madiel on January 13, 2021, 11:33:12 AM
Sorry, but how does this relate to what I said? The fact that there are themes that appear and disappear is not germane to what I said about themes. How do the themes relate to each other? How are they developed?
Very sorry, I missed this reply. Yes, you are right, I went off in a different direction there. I thought your idea of the composer having almost a musical dialogue with himself, emerging with a term acceptable to him was good. It is exactly what Sibelius did in his 7th.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 06:22:19 AM
Thanks for that, which was posted while I was writing my own post. That sounds convincing. But, La Mer has no real programme, it feels like a three movement symphony but is not referred to as such. Do you see a reason it would not be a symphony? Are you suggesting that symphonies work more in the abstract? Beethoven's 6th would be the kind of problem to that idea. But perhaps I am reading something into your words that you did not say. Your explanation is attractive, but I need to think on it.
Mike
Technically, La Mer isn't a tone poem. The title says "Three symphonic sketches for orchestra" it is more of impressions or paintings not a story. Also remember the word "Symphony" has a lot of germanic baggage linking it to Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, etc., and that wasn't in vogue in France at the time. There are definitely grey areas like Beethoven's 6 where he was introducing major changes to structure and movement order. Similar to Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique. I consider these formal symphonies with narrative inspiration. Similar to Mahler's No. 1 and 2, probably No. 3 too. Gliere's No. 3 "Ilya Muromitz" or Shostakovich's programmatic symphonies like No. 7 or 11. The Berlioz example really is on the border but is of a very grand scale. I don't think there is going to be one definition that covers all works, these are generalities. I consider Robin Holloway's Concertos for Orchestra to be symphonies. Doesn't Colin Matthews call his symphonies Sonatas for Orchestra? What about Schoenberg's Chamber Symphonies? Rachmaninoff called his "Bells" a Choral Symphony but I consider it a cantata, not a symphony. These are general conventions and not strict rules.
EDIT: I forgot I already responded but anyway here is more content. :)
Reim, Thanks for the extra fillip on pieces to think about.
Mike
Quote from: amw on January 13, 2021, 12:16:09 PM
Essentially this was a time period when the distinctions between symphonies and tone poems were beginning to erode, and composers were developing radically different conceptions of symphonic form; including applying the title to works for small chamber ensemble (as small as seven players in Gavriil Popov's Chamber Symphony of 1927) ...
As small as a single instrument - Alkan, Symphony for Piano, 1857. Except that it isn't, it's just four of his Etudes.
I used to take much interest in the general question "what is a symphony?" but have long since decided it's ann area of much pseudo-intellectual obfuscation laced with musical snobbery.
I have seen some recordings which attempt to divide the Sibelius 7 into four tracks based on perceived "movements" (usually introduction, slow movement after the first full trombone announcement of the theme, scherzo, finale).
We could of course go further down the rabbit hole and debate whether Sibelius 7 is in fact Sibelius 9, since Lemminkainen Legends and Kullervo have been claimed by various commentators to be symphonies. (I'm not sure I buy it on LL, which is more like Scheherazade in my mind, but even Wikipedia lists Kullervo as a symphony.)
Quote from: aukhawk on January 15, 2021, 08:37:49 AM
As small as a single instrument - Alkan, Symphony for Piano, 1857. Except that it isn't, it's just four of his Etudes.
I didn't include the Alkan because it comes from an earlier era
not particularly marked by experimentation with symphonic form—Alkan and the few others who did so (Berlioz, Raff) were outliers. Despite their aesthetic differences, Schoenberg, Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen and Scriabin were all more or less within the mainstream of European music in the 1900s-1920s. Sibelius tended to reject the music of most of his contemporaries, but no one lives in a vacuum, and he was certainly
aware of what they were doing. (sometimes hearing about it from the composers themselves e.g. in the famous meeting with Mahler where they both expounded upon their differing philosophies of what the symphony should be.)
Quote from: Brian on January 15, 2021, 01:28:57 PM
I have seen some recordings which attempt to divide the Sibelius 7 into four tracks based on perceived "movements" (usually introduction, slow movement after the first full trombone announcement of the theme, scherzo, finale).
We could of course go further down the rabbit hole and debate whether Sibelius 7 is in fact Sibelius 9, since Lemminkainen Legends and Kullervo have been claimed by various commentators to be symphonies. (I'm not sure I buy it on LL, which is more like Scheherazade in my mind, but even Wikipedia lists Kullervo as a symphony.)
It seems that
Kullervo very well could be a symphony as Sibelius himself considered it one or, at least, he did according to this site:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_kullervo.htm (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_kullervo.htm)
Quote from: Brian on January 15, 2021, 01:28:57 PM
I have seen some recordings which attempt to divide the Sibelius 7 into four tracks based on perceived "movements" (usually introduction, slow movement after the first full trombone announcement of the theme, scherzo, finale).
I checked my handful of recordings and 3/5 have one track for the 7th (Ashkenazy, Bernstein, Ormandy). Two Karajan recordings (EMI 1955 and DG) have 4 tracks each but not exactly the same splits! I have no score and could not be bothered to listen but both the timings and the italian tempo words given slightly different!
Quote
We could of course go further down the rabbit hole and debate whether Sibelius 7 is in fact Sibelius 9, since Lemminkainen Legends and Kullervo have been claimed by various commentators to be symphonies. (I'm not sure I buy it on LL, which is more like Scheherazade in my mind, but even Wikipedia lists Kullervo as a symphony.)
Berlioz called R & J a symphony and Mendelssohn's Lobgesang and Mahler's 8th are vocal symphonies (that would probably be better described as huge cantatas), so Kullervo would not be a huge outlier either. (Neither is it unprecedented to have an uncounted (programmatic) symphony in addition to the counted ones, e.g. Manfred or even Wellington's Victory.)
I think the conceptual problem here is that unlike in most sciences (there exceptions) that strive for generality and knowledge about ever more encompassing genera, art deals with unique specific exemplars where usually the special properties are more interesting than the subsumption under a broad genus. One does not expand one's knowledge considerably by debating whether Kullervo or Sheherazade (compare with "Antar" which is called a symphony, there are hardly huge structural differences between them) should "really" count as symphonies or rather suites or tone poems or whatever. (There is probably no doubt that all of the works mentioned are "symphonic" in scale and general style, unlike maybe the Nutcracker suite that is far "lighter" than a symphony would have been at that time.)
It is of course different when the research interest is not the specific piece but long term historical developments, but even then it quickly gets pedantic and boring if one is too obsessed with such classifications.
Mendelssohn didn't call Lobgesang a symphony, and it is no longer catalogued as such.
"Lobgesang" was treated and classified as a "choral symphony" for ~150 years. Do you think we have in the last ca. 20 years (the new edition that puts it with the choral pieces rather than the symphonies stems apparently from 2009) discovered that this had been wrong all the time in the same or a very similar sense it had been wrong all the time to classify whales as fish?
Given that there is no definition of "what is a symphony?" that encompasses all the symphonies out there while at the same time excluding all the non-symphonies - there were a couple of snippets from the last 2 pages of discussion that I really liked:
Quote from: relm1 on January 13, 2021, 06:11:05 AM
... You could consider tone poems as a poem and a symphony as a novel. ... and in general a novel is a work of sprawl with multiple characters, arcs, and an ultimate resolution through struggle.
That's a wonderful description which seems true of many or even most symphonies. Though not Sibelius' 7th of course, which is more a work of distillation.
Also I liked:
Quote from: relm1 on January 14, 2021, 06:32:15 AM
... remember the word "Symphony" has a lot of germanic baggage linking it to Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, etc.,
Quote from: Jo498 on January 16, 2021, 04:35:03 AM
"Lobgesang" was treated and classified as a "choral symphony" for ~150 years. Do you think we have in the last ca. 20 years (the new edition that puts it with the choral pieces rather than the symphonies stems apparently from 2009) discovered that this had been wrong all the time in the same or a very similar sense it had been wrong all the time to classify whales as fish?
Yes.
When do you think we noticed how many symphonies Dvořák wrote? It took a long time to fix what the publishers had done.
If you want to keep preferring what the publishers wanted over what Mendelssohn wanted, that's your business, but given that part of this conversation has been about how composers decide what to call a piece, I would have thought it was highly relevant to point out that Mendelssohn didn't call it a symphony.
Quote from: aukhawk on January 16, 2021, 07:25:47 AM
That's a wonderful description which seems true of many or even most symphonies. Though not Sibelius' 7th of course, which is more a work of distillation.
The "Though not Sibelius' 7th of course, which is more a work of distillation." is debatable. First, what do you define as "distillation" in this context?
Quote from: Madiel on January 16, 2021, 01:05:29 AM
Mendelssohn didn't call Lobgesang a symphony, and it is no longer catalogued as such.
Wait, really? Even very recent Mendelssohn symphony cycles (like Manacorda or Gardiner/LSO) include it, with numbering.
Quote from: Brian on January 19, 2021, 08:10:06 AM
Wait, really? Even very recent Mendelssohn symphony cycles (like Manacorda or Gardiner/LSO) include it, with numbering.
Yes, I was surprised to hear this too, Brian.
Quote from: Madiel on January 16, 2021, 10:18:36 AM
If you want to keep preferring what the publishers wanted over what Mendelssohn wanted, that's your business, but given that part of this conversation has been about how composers decide what to call a piece, I would have thought it was highly relevant to point out that Mendelssohn didn't call it a symphony.
Be careful what you wish for. Mendelssohn didn't want his "5th symphony" (the "Reformation symphony") to be published at all...
My recording of Lobgesang (Spering) "Symphony No. 2" on the spine "Symphonie Lobgesang" on the title, "Lobgesang eine Symphonie-Cantate Nr. 2" on the back (the Nr. 2 does not really make sense here because there is no earlier numbere Symphony cantata). So they apparently could not decide (and the booklet is a mess with several empty pages, apparently a mistake but the pages I described seem regular).
I don't care either way in which volume Lobgesang is edited or how it is called. But I think it is not very helpful to think that whether it is a symphony or a cantata (or something else) could simply or decisively be settled by what's on a title page, regardless of whether the composer or the editor is responsible. In either case it would be a quite unusual exemplar of its kind and while there is an obvious precedent of a choral symphony with three instrumental movements before the vocal parts and this fact was probably relevant for the publisher's/editors decisions until the day before yesterday, I am not aware of a cantata with three symphony movements at the beginning although many baroque cantatas do start with a short sinfonia which was certainly known to Mendelssohn and might have been
Again, wasn't this entire conversation DRIVEN by the question of how a composer labelled a work?
Quote from: knight66 on January 13, 2021, 06:22:19 AM
But, La Mer has no real programme, it feels like a three movement symphony but is not referred to as such. Do you see a reason it would not be a symphony? Are you suggesting that symphonies work more in the abstract? Beethoven's 6th would be the kind of problem to that idea. But perhaps I am reading something into your words that you did not say. Your explanation is attractive, but I need to think on it.
Mike
I suspect Debussy really did not want to call anything of his "symphony".
Only at the end of his life, during war, did he revert to Sonatas in form and title.
But I may be wrong.
There is a Debussy Symphonie, a piece for piano duet. It's been orchestrated and recorded, but it's an early one-movement work (1880).
Someone here recently recommended hearing the Sibelius recordings of Jussi Jalas (the composer's son-in-law) and I'm grateful to them as I bought the Eloquence set when it first came out but have hardly listened to it. Anyway, I'm listening to 'The Tempest' Suite No.1 now and it is the best I have heard, especially the beautifully poetic 'Berceuse' and the beginning of 'The Storm', which starts unusually quietly but is the most authentically terrifying that I have heard. I'm sure that this is how Sibelius wanted it to sound; there is an authenticity about these performances which are spellbinding:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 06, 2021, 09:04:05 AM
Someone here recently recommended hearing the Sibelius recordings of Jussi Jalas (the composer's son-in-law) and I'm grateful to them as I bought the Eloquence set when it first came out but have hardly listened to it. Anyway, I'm listening to 'The Tempest' Suite No.1 now and it is the best I have heard, especially the beautifully poetic 'Berceuse' and the beginning of 'The Storm', which starts unusually quietly but is the most authentically terrifying that I have heard. I'm sure that this is how Sibelius wanted it to sound; there is an authenticity about these performances which are spellbinding:
(//)
I didn't know that Sibelius had a son-in-law who was a conductor. I'll have to look into it...neat!
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 06, 2021, 01:31:45 PM
I didn't know that Sibelius had a son-in-law who was a conductor. I'll have to look into it...neat!
PD
My reaction exactly! Did he have a kid? Is there a direct descendant of his around today? I don't know if genius is passed on but there is some aspect of nostalgia.
Quote from: relm1 on April 06, 2021, 03:50:48 PM
My reaction exactly! Did he have a kid? Is there a direct descendant of his around today? I don't know if genius is passed on but there is some aspect of nostalgia.
I think that Sibelius had several daughters. There's a funny story about the conductor Thomas Beecham visiting the Sibelius home in Finland and presenting the composer with some records of Sibelius's music which he had recorded. Sibelius, who was very elderly by then, put them on the Gramophone at top volume, so that his daughters and wife ran out of the house into the garden covering their ears.
I'm sure that their must be living relatives of the composer around today. Visiting his house in 2013 with my Finnish friend and my brother is a great memory.
PS After extensive research I can confirm that Sibelius had six daughters. Here he is (in 1915) with some of them at his home 'Ainola' (now the Sibelius Museum), which is well worth visiting. Sibelius and his wife are buried in the garden.
Here are some family reminiscences:
(//)
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/ainola/muistoja_perhe.html
Quote from: relm1 on April 06, 2021, 03:50:48 PM
My reaction exactly! Did he have a kid? Is there a direct descendant of his around today? I don't know if genius is passed on but there is some aspect of nostalgia.
Jussi Jalas and Margareta Jalas née Sibelius had two children, Tapio Jalas was a flutist, and taught in the Sibelius Academy, he died in 1993. Their daughter Aino Porra is an oboist, and her son Lauri Porra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Porra) is a bass guitarist in the Finnish power metal band Stratovarius, as well as a composer, with commissions from the Finnish RSO and Lahti Symphony.
QuotePorra has released five instrumental solo albums, including Entropia (a collaboration with Lahti Symphony Orchestra), released in January 2018 on BIS-records.[5] He has also composed music for films and other media. His orchestral compositions have been performed by the Finnish Radio Orchestra, Trondheim Symphony Orchestra, the Lahti Symphony Orchestra and the New Bedford Symphony[6] His live projects include Lauri Porra Flyover Ensemble,[7] which plays the music from his albums, and the Bach Reimagined project,[8] which performs music based on J.S. Bach's six cello suites arranged and recomposed for electric bass, cello and electronics. Porra has performed in over 50 countries, with performances ranging from The Proms[9] and Wacken Open Air to Pori Jazz. As a session musician he has played on over 50 records with styles ranging from heavy metal to contemporary classical, electronic, hip hop and pop albums.
Aino Porra mentioned this rather different interpretation of Finlandia in one interview..
https://www.youtube.com/v/t-RuAyaePik
Quote from: North Star on April 07, 2021, 01:49:14 AM
Aino Porra mentioned this rather different interpretation of Finlandia in one interview..
https://www.youtube.com/v/t-RuAyaePik
Excellent!
https://finland.fi/arts-culture/sisu-sauna-sibelius-and-heavy-metal-too/
Thanks for the information! Digging a bit further, I read that one of his daughters (I believe that it was his third?) sadly died at age one and a half years old.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 07, 2021, 04:57:59 AM
Thanks for the information! Digging a bit further, I read that one of his daughters (I believe that it was his third?) sadly died at age one and a half years old.
PD
Very sad indeed PD.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Exzag6gXMAMKAKA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Here's an exciting upcoming #SIBELIUS release headed our way from @Filharmonien
,
@deccaclassics & @klausmakela. For us Sibelius-heads, anyway.
Cycle-Survey: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html
(cover is just a mock-up) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1377216099637420032)
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 07, 2021, 11:05:43 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Exzag6gXMAMKAKA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Here's an exciting upcoming #SIBELIUS release headed our way from @Filharmonien
,
@deccaclassics & @klausmakela. For us Sibelius-heads, anyway.
Cycle-Survey: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html
(cover is just a mock-up) (https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1377216099637420032)
'Fragments of Symphony No.8' :o :o
There's at least a minute-long chunk of the Eighth available on YouTube.
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2021, 12:53:47 PM
There's at least a minute-long chunk of the Eighth available on YouTube.
I've just watched it - not too sure what to make of it really.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 07, 2021, 12:47:25 PM
'Fragments of Symphony No.8' :o :o
Don't get two excited there, Jeffrey. It's nothing substantial. These were included in the
Sibelius Edition on BIS and, honestly, they weren't anything noteworthy. Anyway, this new set looks interesting. The problem nowadays as with so many other composers is that Sibelius has been so well-served on disc that it'd be difficult to top Berglund, Vänskä, Karajan or Segerstam in my mind. Bernstein and Barbirolli were also quite good, IMHO. So these performances had better be interpretatively different and drastically so for me to actually buy the set. Anyway, this is just my own perspective about upcoming Sibelius recordings in general.
John Storgards and the BBC Philharmonic recorded 'Three late fragments'. The booklet notes say it is not certain they are sketches for the 8th Symphony but it is possible. They total just 2'48 and I don't recall them being particularly interesting. Presumably they are the same fragments mentioned above.
I'm really surprised more of the 8th hasn't been found. Even if he burned his manuscript(s), he was working with a copyist who would have done some preparation of it into a readable version and didn't he send parts of it to Koussevitzky? Then later deemed it not ready and kept working on it. I'm just surprised all we have in under 3 minutes of it. Perhaps it is still out there somewhere, just not named, or in a pile of pages no one knows what to do with.
Quote from: relm1 on April 08, 2021, 05:41:09 AM
I'm really surprised more of the 8th hasn't been found. Even if he burned his manuscript(s), he was working with a copyist who would have done some preparation of it into a readable version and didn't he send parts of it to Koussevitzky? Then later deemed it not ready and kept working on it. I'm just surprised all we have in under 3 minutes of it. Perhaps it is still out there somewhere, just not named, or in a pile of pages no one knows what to do with.
Perhaps they'll find more of it amongst Koussevitzky's things? One can hope.... :)
PD
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 07, 2021, 02:35:47 PM
Don't get two excited there, Jeffrey. It's nothing substantial. These were included in the Sibelius Edition on BIS and, honestly, they weren't anything noteworthy. Anyway, this new set looks interesting. The problem nowadays as with so many other composers is that Sibelius has been so well-served on disc that it'd be difficult to top Berglund, Vänskä, Karajan or Segerstam in my mind. Bernstein and Barbirolli were also quite good, IMHO. So these performances had better be interpretatively different and drastically so for me to actually buy the set. Anyway, this is just my own perspective about upcoming Sibelius recordings in general.
+1 about all you say. I find I have a kind buyer's twitch when I think "oh that looks interesting I might get that" followed swiftly by the thought it'd be something like my 16th Sibelius cycle - and nearly all the other 15 are pretty good anyway.......... but then 16 is a nice round number........
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 08, 2021, 07:33:35 AM
+1 about all you say. I find I have a kind buyer's twitch when I think "oh that looks interesting I might get that" followed swiftly by the thought it'd be something like my 16th Sibelius cycle - and nearly all the other 15 are pretty good anyway.......... but then 16 is a nice round number........
Go for it! >:D
Quote from: vandermolen on April 08, 2021, 07:35:01 AM
Go for it! >:D
oh all right then................. well I never said I was strong-willed..............
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 08, 2021, 07:33:35 AM
+1 about all you say. I find I have a kind buyer's twitch when I think "oh that looks interesting I might get that" followed swiftly by the thought it'd be something like my 16th Sibelius cycle - and nearly all the other 15 are pretty good anyway.......... but then 16 is a nice round number........
Yes and like you, I just own too many cycles with several of them being in the only 'okay' category and not worth revisiting. I think I've finally reached that point in my own collecting where I have been able to put my foot down for once and say "I doubt this new recording will better any of my already established favorites." Of course, there are some surprises here and there like Dausgaard's recording of
Kullervo for example. I was
very surprised by just how good it was and how different it sounded to so many of the other performances I've heard. The Berglund/Bournemouth remains my favorite but this Dausgaard is in a very close second-place.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 08, 2021, 07:33:35 AM
+1 about all you say. I find I have a kind buyer's twitch when I think "oh that looks interesting I might get that" followed swiftly by the thought it'd be something like my 16th Sibelius cycle - and nearly all the other 15 are pretty good anyway.......... but then 16 is a nice round number........
Sixteen Sibelius cycles would be madness, stick at fifteen, a sensible number. I have fifteen complete cycles but that is only part of the story; I have numerous other recordings of individual symphonies (and part cycles) including five recordings of No 2 by Barbirolli.
Quote from: Biffo on April 09, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Sixteen Sibelius cycles would be madness, stick at fifteen, a sensible number. I have fifteen complete cycles but that is only part of the story; I have numerous other recordings of individual symphonies (and part cycles) including five recordings of No 2 by Barbirolli.
This has set me thinking on how many cycles I have:
Barbirolli
Maazel
Collins
Berglund x2
'Historic Performances' (Kajanus/Beecham etc)
Abravanel
Rattle
Ehrling (very good)
Rozhdestvensky
Sanderling
Ashkenazy
Segerstam
Colin Davis (RCA)
Karajan/Kamu
Gibson
That makes 16 although I gave Ashkenazy, Gibson and Sanderling away to friends.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2021, 02:20:48 AM
This has set me thinking on how many cycles I have:
Barbirolli
Maazel
Collins
Berglund x2
'Historic Performances' (Kajanus/Beecham etc)
Abravanel
Rattle
Ehrling (very good)
Rozhdestvensky
Sanderling
Ashkenazy
Segerstam
Colin Davis (RCA)
Karajan/Kamu
Gibson
That makes 16 although I gave Ashkenazy, Gibson and Sanderling away to friends.
There is some overlap with mine (not surprising) -
Barbirolli
Berglund x 3
Ashkenazy
Srorgards
Gibson
Kamu/Lahti
Vanska/Lahti
Oramo/CBSO
Davis/Boston SO
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Bernstein/NYPO
Elder
Maazel
I have Rattle in Nos 1,3,5 & 7, also a mixture of Karajan's EMI and DG recordings (for some reason he never recorded No 3).
Edit: I also have Collins/LSO - don't know how I missed it, my first ever No 5 was from that cycle, a Decca Ace of Clubs LP
Complete cycles of mine:
Bernstein/NY
Berglund/Bournemouth
Rozhdestvensky
Davis/Boston
Vanska/Lahti
Ashkenazy/decca
Gibson
Fragments of cycles:
Collins
Also:
all Karajan's stereo
Skipped:
Abravanel
Sanderling
Maazel/decca
Plus various single recordings,
for example Barbirolli (early), Celibidache, Beecham, Kamu, Ormandy (early), Dorati.
I guess what is mainly lacking is a recent series with cinemascope sound picture (Segerstam/Chandos?), but I don't plan buying more.
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 09, 2021, 04:50:35 AM
Complete cycles of mine:
Bernstein/NY
Berglund/Bournemouth
Rozhdestvensky
Davis/Boston
Vanska/Lahti
Ashkenazy/decca
Gibson
Fragments of cycles:
Collins
Also:
all Karajan's stereo
Skipped:
Abravanel
Sanderling
Maazel/decca
Plus various single recordings,
for example Barbirolli (early), Celibidache, Beecham, Kamu, Ormandy (early), Dorati.
I guess what is mainly lacking is a recent series with cinemascope sound picture (Segerstam/Chandos?), but I don't plan buying more.
Vanska/Minnesota might fill the bill but as you already have his Lahti SO cycle you might find it redundant, especially as you don't plan buying any more
Quote from: Biffo on April 09, 2021, 05:11:35 AM
Vanska/Minnesota might fill the bill but as you already have his Lahti SO cycle you might find it redundant, especially as you don't plan buying any more
Well, I don't tend to be a fan of Vanska's style generally (not his Beethoven either, for example), but haven't heard any of that Minnesota cycle ...
I only have 3 complete sets:
Maazel/Vienna
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Jarvi/Gothenburg - DG
I really only listen to Maazel/Vienna, as that is by far my favourite. The Jarvi is ok. The Maazel/Pittsburgh I don't like much at all, it has been a big disappointment for me.
Quote from: Biffo on April 09, 2021, 05:11:35 AM
Vanska/Minnesota might fill the bill but as you already have his Lahti SO cycle you might find it redundant, especially as you don't plan buying any more
Rattle/BPO would offer more point of difference.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 09, 2021, 05:17:57 AM
I only have 3 complete sets:
Maazel/Vienna
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Jarvi/Gothenburg - DG
I really only listen to Maazel/Vienna, as that is by far my favourite. The Jarvi is ok. The Maazel/Pittsburgh I don't like much at all, it has been a big disappointment for me.
I really like Jarvi/DG in the other orchestral works, including the Lemminkainen Suite, but it seems to be a somewhat minority opinion. I have a bit of his BIS. Haven't heard the DG symphonies.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 09, 2021, 05:17:57 AM
I only have 3 complete sets:
Maazel/Vienna
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Jarvi/Gothenburg - DG
I really only listen to Maazel/Vienna, as that is by far my favourite. The Jarvi is ok. The Maazel/Pittsburgh I don't like much at all, it has been a big disappointment for me.
I think that the Maazel Vienna set, which includes a fine 'Tapiola' is excellent. I have this beautifully presented set. I realise that I have both Colin Davis cycles making 17 now ( ::)) although I've given some away:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2021, 11:04:39 PM
I think that the Maazel Vienna set, which includes a fine 'Tapiola' is excellent. I have this beautifully presented set. I realise that I have both Colin Davis cycles making 17 now ( ::)) although I've given some away:
(//)
I should invest in this set (the remastered Maazel/Vienna). I have the original London set. Is the remastered a noticeable improvement in sound? Not that I found the original bad at all, sound wise.
I have one recording of each symphony (and one cycle).
I might eventually get some other recordings (indeed there are certain ones on my list of things to listen to at some point), but really I've been prioritising exploring and collecting Sibelius' other works. Only some of which would have 15-16 recordings available in the first place.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on April 10, 2021, 03:25:19 AM
I should invest in this set (the remastered Maazel/Vienna). I have the original London set. Is the remastered a noticeable improvement in sound? Not that I found the original bad at all, sound wise.
I don't have the original London set, just the CD below, but I was v impressed by both the sound and performances on the remastered set:
(//)
Let's see how many complete Sibelius symphony cycles I own...
Vänskä/Lahti
Vänskä/Minnesota
Segerstam/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Maazel/Wiener
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/NY
Barbirolli/Halle
Davis/Boston
Davis/LSO
Davis/LSO Live
Järvi/Gothenburg
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Saraste/Finnish RSO (Live)
Gibson/Royal Scottish
Sakari/Iceland
Inkinen/New Zealand
Abravanel/Utah
Rattle/Birmingham
Rattle/Berliners
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
Sanderling/Berliner SO
Volmer/Adelaide
Oramo/Birmingham
Kamu/Lahti
Lintu/Finnish RSO (on blu-ray)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2021, 06:52:49 AM
Let's see how many complete Sibelius symphony cycles I own...
Vänskä/Lahti
Vänskä/Minnesota
Segerstam/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Maazel/Wiener
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/NY
Barbirolli/Halle
Davis/Boston
Davis/LSO
Davis/LSO Live
Järvi/Gothenburg
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Saraste/Finnish RSO (Live)
Gibson/Royal Scottish
Sakari/Iceland
Inkinen/New Zealand
Abravanel/Utah
Rattle/Birmingham
Rattle/Berliners
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
Sanderling/Berliner SO
Volmer/Adelaide
Lintu/Finnish RSO (on blu-ray)
Interesting to see Saraste has two complete cycles, I only have his fine recording of No 2 with the Finnish RSO, will obviously have to check this out.
Quote from: Biffo on April 10, 2021, 07:37:08 AM
Interesting to see Saraste has two complete cycles, I only have his fine recording of No 2 with the Finnish RSO, will obviously have to check this out.
I really enjoy his Finnish RSO live cycle (live in St. Petersburg if I'm not mistaken) and it's
the Saraste to hear, IMHO. His earlier cycle (on RCA) is just kind of ho-hum for me with no real excitement or energy being brought to the music. Make no mistake though, Saraste is a fine Sibelian but, like anyone, he's done some duds.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2021, 06:52:49 AM
Let's see how many complete Sibelius symphony cycles I own...
Vänskä/Lahti
Vänskä/Minnesota
Segerstam/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Maazel/Wiener
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/NY
Barbirolli/Halle
Davis/Boston
Davis/LSO
Davis/LSO Live
Järvi/Gothenburg
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Saraste/Finnish RSO (Live)
Gibson/Royal Scottish
Sakari/Iceland
Inkinen/New Zealand
Abravanel/Utah
Rattle/Birmingham
Rattle/Berliners
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
Sanderling/Berliner SO
Volmer/Adelaide
Lintu/Finnish RSO (on blu-ray)
Wot no Kamu/Lahti???!!! ;) (I also think Oramo in Birmingham is a lot better than some would say...)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2021, 07:50:50 AM
I really enjoy his Finnish RSO live cycle (live in St. Petersburg if I'm not mistaken) and it's the Saraste to hear, IMHO. His earlier cycle (on RCA) is just kind of ho-hum for me with no real excitement or energy being brought to the music. Make no mistake though, Saraste is a fine Sibelian but, like anyone, he's done some duds.
Thanks for the comments. I have ordered the RCA cycle, will have to see how I find it. I am sure I had checked before for his Sibelius recordings.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 10, 2021, 07:58:55 AM
Wot no Kamu/Lahti???!!! ;) (I also think Oramo in Birmingham is a lot better than some would say...)
Damn, I forgot about Kamu and Oramo! Thanks for the reminder! ;)
Quote from: Biffo on April 10, 2021, 08:18:07 AM
Thanks for the comments. I have ordered the RCA cycle, will have to see how I find it. I am sure I had checked before for his Sibelius recordings.
Will be curious to read your comments once you've received the set and had time to give the set a proper listen.
I've been really enjoying this inexpensive set. I have just listened to the short cantata 'Snofrid' for the first time - a most enjoyable piece:
(//)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 10, 2021, 06:52:49 AM
Let's see how many complete Sibelius symphony cycles I own...
Vänskä/Lahti
Vänskä/Minnesota
Segerstam/Helsinki
Berglund/Bournemouth
Berglund/Helsinki
Maazel/Wiener
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/NY
Barbirolli/Halle
Davis/Boston
Davis/LSO
Davis/LSO Live
Järvi/Gothenburg
Saraste/Finnish RSO
Saraste/Finnish RSO (Live)
Gibson/Royal Scottish
Sakari/Iceland
Inkinen/New Zealand
Abravanel/Utah
Rattle/Birmingham
Rattle/Berliners
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO
Sanderling/Berliner SO
Volmer/Adelaide
Oramo/Birmingham
Kamu/Lahti
Lintu/Finnish RSO (on blu-ray)
Blimey!
The two cycles I would love to own are not featured on any list above. Hans Schmidt - Isserstedt won't appear because he didn't make one! But wish he did as his 2nd is outstanding (available as an upload on Pristine Classical). I did not buy CDs when for a short period a live set recorded by Horst Stein in Japan was available. I am kicking myself missing out!
Quote from: Irons on April 11, 2021, 01:07:27 AM
Blimey!
The two cycles I would love to own are not featured on any list above. Hans Schmidt - Isserstedt won't appear because he didn't make one! But wish he did as his 2nd is outstanding (available as an upload on Pristine Classical). I did not buy CDs when for a short period a live set recorded by Horst Stein in Japan was available. I am kicking myself missing out!
I have this enjoyable set Lol, which includes a fine Second Symphony. The set includes the contents on one of my earliest classical LPs of Sibelius's Tone Poems:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2021, 01:40:49 AM
I have this enjoyable set Lol, which includes a fine Second Symphony. The set includes the contents on one of my earliest classical LPs of Sibelius's Tone Poems:
+1 for the Horst Stein set. His disc with a clearly inspired L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande includes my favourite En Saga and a thrilling Night-ride and Sunrise as well. One of my first CD purchases I think;
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ObMAAOSwQ5tfnEV6/s-l640.jpg)
but available in several recouplings/reincarnations since......
A PS: PD - you really ought to hear this PD as well - what a version!!
There are also interesting cycles from Berglund / COE, Ashkenazy / Stockholm, Jarvi / Gothenburg / BIS, Leaper / Slovak, Paavo Jarvi / Paris, and historically Collins, Watanabe, Ehrling -
and yet, and yet - one could have all these listed, and still not have a favourite version of one or other of the four last symphonies.
Regarding Saraste, I rather like his 6th (RCA) - quite a robust reading which contrasts with the mainstream approach of delicate, almost chamber-like music. Of course I'm happy to go along with the mainstream (Karajan / DG would be my favourite but the sound is not too good, IMHO) but Saraste is an unusual alternative.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 11, 2021, 07:09:15 AM
There are also interesting cycles from Berglund / COE, Ashkenazy / Stockholm, Jarvi / Gothenburg / BIS, Leaper / Slovak, Paavo Jarvi / Paris, and historically Collins, Watanabe, Ehrling -
and yet, and yet - one could have all these listed, and still not have a favourite version of one or other of the four last symphonies.
Regarding Saraste, I rather like his 6th (RCA) - quite a robust reading which contrasts with the mainstream approach of delicate, almost chamber-like music. Of course I'm happy to go along with the mainstream (Karajan / DG would be my favourite but the sound is not too good, IMHO) but Saraste is an unusual alternative.
I've liked the Sarasate recordings which I've heard. The one below has an excellent 'En Saga' and 'Tapiola' as well as Symphony No.5:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2021, 01:40:49 AM
I have this enjoyable set Lol, which includes a fine Second Symphony. The set includes the contents on one of my earliest classical LPs of Sibelius's Tone Poems:
(//)
This is the Horst Stein set I was alluding to, Jeffrey. I thought it complete but maybe mistaken, unless another issue.
Quote from: Irons on April 11, 2021, 01:00:30 PM
This is the Horst Stein set I was alluding to, Jeffrey. I thought it complete but maybe mistaken, unless another issue.
Thanks Lol. Never seen that one before.
Over on eClassical, BIS founder Robert von Bahr relates that Sibelius' music for Masonic rituals almost never got recorded or included in the Complete Works. Finland's Freemasons were totally against it, being very secretive and unwilling to let the music be heard by non-Masons. Luckily the tenor soloist von Bahr had recruited for the album, Hannu Jurmu, was a Freemason himself, so Jurmu persuaded them to allow the album to be made.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 11, 2021, 07:35:14 AM
I've liked the Sarasate recordings which I've heard. The one below has an excellent 'En Saga' and 'Tapiola' as well as Symphony No.5:
(//)
The Saraste RCA box set arrived yesterday. So far I have only listened to a few short pieces, will probably start on the symphonies tomorrow.
The Horst Stein and Jussi Jalas albums turn up occasionally in my Amazon recommendations but I have only seen tepid (or worse) comments about them in this forum and have so far avoided them. Perhaps I should give Stein a try on Spotify.
Quote from: Brian on April 12, 2021, 06:06:12 AM
Over on eClassical, BIS founder Robert von Bahr relates that Sibelius' music for Masonic rituals almost never got recorded or included in the Complete Works. Finland's Freemasons were totally against it, being very secretive and unwilling to let the music be heard by non-Masons. Luckily the tenor soloist von Bahr had recruited for the album, Hannu Jurmu, was a Freemason himself, so Jurmu persuaded them to allow the album to be made.
Interesting comment, thank you.
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 12, 2021, 08:24:41 AM
Interesting comment, thank you.
I didn't know that either; quite interesting!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 11, 2021, 02:19:46 AM
+1 for the Horst Stein set. His disc with a clearly inspired L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande includes my favourite En Saga
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ObMAAOSwQ5tfnEV6/s-l640.jpg)
That's one of my favorites too. Swift (16:15) and with prominent bass drum whacks. It's disappointing how so many recordings of
En saga bury the drum. Of the thirteen versions I own, only Vänskä, Schmidt and Rouvali (besides Stein) give it its due.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2021, 08:45:20 AM
It's disappointing how so many recordings of En saga bury the drum.
Sarge
A slight Sibelian oddity (he does it elsewhere too, I'm sure - 1st symphony, perhaps) is that the bass drum is directed to be played throughout with timpani sticks. It's difficult to produce the same level of whack as with a good heavy bass drum stick.
Quote from: DaveF on April 12, 2021, 08:56:42 AM
A slight Sibelian oddity (he does it elsewhere too, I'm sure - 1st symphony, perhaps) is that the bass drum is directed to be played throughout with timpani sticks. It's difficult to produce the same level of whack as with a good heavy bass drum stick.
Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2021, 09:03:13 AM
Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.
Sarge
The plot thickens somwhat, Sarge - I've just looked at the score and part (illegally, in fact, on IMSLP) and the first 2 bass drum entries in the part (first 3 in the score) are marked to be played with timpani sticks, and thereafter nothing - i.e. no
loco or equivalent. So does this mean the player should then revert to his usual sticks, or is it just lack of clarity in the bad old (handwritten) Breitkopf score? No doubt there's a modern critical edition in which the question is resolved, but for older performances I can see why some conductors would feel justified in calling for proper sticks and proper whacks. We played the piece a few years back in my local band, and much debate was had at the time, and... I can't remember what we did. My son, then about 13, was playing bass drum - my recollection is that he made plenty of noise...
Quote from: DaveF on April 12, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
We played the piece a few years back in my local band, and much debate was had at the time, and... I can't remember what we did. My son, then about 13, was playing bass drum - my recollection is that he made plenty of noise...
As the good lord, although perhaps not Sibelius, intended ;D
Thank you for digging into the issue, perhaps a small issue but one that has vexed me since I noticed the difference among recordings.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2021, 09:03:13 AM
Ah, that may explain it. He must've wanted a softer blow. I still prefer Stein's explosions.
Sarge
No I don't think it was the dynamic/type of blow that dictated that marking. The bass drum writing in En Saga is notable for the very long/extended rolls Sibelius asks for often at very quiet dynamics - at one point
pppp marked "quasi niente" To my ear these need to me nice "tight" rolls - something like you achieve on timpani easily but much harder on a bass drum using the standard bigger sticks. So its a question of making the execution easier. At the passage you mention the dynamic is
ff with the instruction "crescendo possibile" towards the end. I'm no percussionist but I wonder if some players swap to standard bass drum sticks for the last (preceeding) long roll to allow for a weighty sound through that crescendo as its literally the last thing the bass drum plays in the work.
Long and short of it - I'm like you - I want to hear the bass drum there - its such a muscular passage in the writing.......
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 12, 2021, 11:06:39 PM
No I don't think it was the dynamic/type of blow that dictated that marking. The bass drum writing in En Saga is notable for the very long/extended rolls Sibelius asks for often at very quiet dynamics - at one point pppp marked "quasi niente" To my ear these need to me nice "tight" rolls - something like you achieve on timpani easily but much harder on a bass drum using the standard bigger sticks. So its a question of making the execution easier. At the passage you mention the dynamic is ff with the instruction "crescendo possibile" towards the end. I'm no percussionist but I wonder if some players swap to standard bass drum sticks for the last (preceeding) long roll to allow for a weighty sound through that crescendo as its literally the last thing the bass drum plays in the work.
Long and short of it - I'm like you - I want to hear the bass drum there - its such a muscular passage in the writing.......
Your explanation makes a lot of sense, considering Sibelius' rolls and dynamic markings from pppp to ff. Thank you for your input.
Sarge
I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:
(//)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 03:41:09 AM
I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:
(//)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q
I have had
The Spirit of Nature (Vanska) and the blue Virgin Classics box (Paavo Järvi) for quite some time but have probably only listened to
Väinön virsi once from each. It is indeed inspiriting (just listened to it now, Vanska) and I must listen to more Sibelius choral works once I have finished bingeing on Jukka-Pekka Saraste.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 03:41:09 AM
I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:
(//)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q
I'll have to give
Väinämöinen's Song a listen as it was reissued in the Sibelius Edition
Voice & Orchestra box set. As for my own personal Sibelian discoveries, I have to say that
Origin of Fire (Tulen Synty), Op. 32 in both original and revised versions was an ear-opener for me. The vocal style reminded me of Shostakovich quite a bit I must say. If I had to pick a favorite version it would be the original in that there's a longer introduction that I helps set the mood just brilliantly. I usually prefer Sibelius revisions to his original thoughts, but here it's the reverse.
You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 08:11:27 AM
You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:
(//)
It is not specifically a Finnish accent though no doubt it has a special significance in Finnish. It is the same character as the umlaut in German and the dieresis (or diaeresis) in English (and other languages)
I cheat by cut-and-pasting it from a document I have with selected foreign words though sometimes I don't bother. I think it is also somewhere on my keyboard but I can never find it.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 08:11:27 AM
You're both much more adept with the Finnish accents than I am! Thanks for the interesting comments. I remember liking 'Origin of Fire' from an LP set years ago.
Here it is:
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=341.0;attach=73248;image)
Ah yes, that is one of the recordings you sent me, Jeffrey. Interestingly enough, I ended up getting it twice when I bought the reissue of the Berglund Helsinki set on Warner Classics (w/ all the original cover art). FWIW, I'm not adept with Finnish at all as all I did was find the name of the piece via a Google search and copied/pasted the spelling here. ;)
I don't remember how it works on Windows computers, but on a Mac one can choose various languages for ones keyboard.
Click on the little flag (on mine, it's in the upper right-hand side). Then click on Open keyboard preferences. At the bottom is a "+" sign. Click on that. Pick whichever languages you wish to add. To change your language, just click on the flag and click on the language you want to use. Most of the time I don't bother though. You can also pull up many different accent marks by briefly holding down a letter and then choosing which one you want. For example "e": è é ê ë ē ė ę . :)
PD
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 27, 2021, 09:04:40 AM
Ah yes, that is one of the recordings you sent me, Jeffrey. Interestingly enough, I ended up getting it twice when I bought the reissue of the Berglund Helsinki set on Warner Classics (w/ all the original cover art). FWIW, I'm not adept with Finnish at all as all I did was find the name of the piece via a Google search and copied/pasted the spelling here. ;)
Can't remember sending it to you John. I do like 'original cover art' sets which are the antithesis of many rather bland, although admittedly inexpensive, boxed set reissues (such as the Slatkin and Previn VW cycles).
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 09:15:11 AM
Can't remember sending it to you John. I do like 'original cover art' sets which are the antithesis of many rather bland, although admittedly inexpensive, boxed set reissues (such as the Slatkin and Previn VW cycles).
Yes, those RCA budget reissue sets are rather unattractive, but in the case of the RVW Previn sets, the fidelity had been greatly improved from this older issued set on RCA:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rFOvicJOL._SL1500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 27, 2021, 09:55:05 AM
Yes, those RCA budget reissue sets are rather unattractive, but in the case of the RVW Previn sets, the fidelity had been greatly improved from this older issued set on RCA:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rFOvicJOL._SL1500_.jpg)
Oh, that's interesting John as the one you illustrate is the one that I have.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 03:41:09 AM
I'm really enjoying this newly arrived CD. The great discovery for me has been the life-affirming and inspiriting 'Vainon Virsi' (sorry, I can't find the Finnish accents on my keyboard). I was amazed to read that it was composed around the same time as 'Tapiola'. It was Sibelius's last cantata. It can also be found in the blue Sibelius Paavo Jarvi boxed set which I wrote about earlier:
(//)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llt-u8p0k_Q
Love this disc.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 01:26:11 PM
Oh, that's interesting John as the one you illustrate is the one that I have.
You don't own the newer remastered, cheapo set? :o If you can find this one (it seems to be OOP now), then jump on it ASAP:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81BDwVPWHdL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
The remastering blows away the previous iteration, IMHO.
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 27, 2021, 01:37:19 PM
Love this disc.
Yes, it's a great discovery - one of those CDs that I can play through from beginning to end with much pleasure.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 27, 2021, 02:03:14 PM
You don't own the newer remastered, cheapo set? :o If you can find this one (it seems to be OOP now), then jump on it ASAP:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81BDwVPWHdL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
The remastering blows away the previous iteration, IMHO.
No I don't John! :o
Clearly I need to. It's not too expensive at the moment, so I will, no doubt, order a copy sooner or later. Thanks for the recommendation. I did not know that there was an appreciably different sound quality between the more recent 'no notes' set and the 'detailed notes + photos' earlier set.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 27, 2021, 02:03:14 PM
You don't own the newer remastered, cheapo set? :o If you can find this one (it seems to be OOP now), then jump on it ASAP:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81BDwVPWHdL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
The remastering blows away the previous iteration, IMHO.
I suspect this one is the same mastering as the one in RCA Red Seal livery pictured previously. Anyway, I have this one, and it does sound better than the old Gold Seal singles.
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2021, 03:01:56 AM
I suspect this one is the same mastering as the one in RCA Red Seal livery pictured previously. Anyway, I have this one, and it does sound better than the old Gold Seal singles.
Interesting (OT) although if it's the same mastering as the RCA Red Seal box (which I have) why should the new set, with the picture of Previn on the front cover, sound better?
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2021, 03:35:43 AM
Interesting (OT) although if it's the same mastering as the RCA Red Seal box (which I have) why should the new set, with the picture of Previn on the front cover, sound better?
Maybe I was thinking of the Slatkin box, which also was in a cheap RCA Red Seal and a Sony box.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2021, 10:58:57 PM
No I don't John! :o
Clearly I need to. It's not too expensive at the moment, so I will, no doubt, order a copy sooner or later. Thanks for the recommendation. I did not know that there was an appreciably different sound quality between the more recent 'no notes' set and the 'detailed notes + photos' earlier set.
Oh yes, there's more of a punch in audio quality of this cheapo set. I didn't want to believe it at first and then many years ago I did a side-by-side comparison of the 5th from both the older and this newer set and I couldn't believe my ears.
I wrote a review for this more recent Previn set, Jeffrey and if want to read here it is:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3PU6UMXCWV19H/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B019STIIHA (https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3PU6UMXCWV19H/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B019STIIHA)
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2021, 03:01:56 AM
I suspect this one is the same mastering as the one in RCA Red Seal livery pictured previously. Anyway, I have this one, and it does sound better than the old Gold Seal singles.
No, the newer set has been remastered completely. I don't have the box set in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they did a 24-bit up conversion in the set. It maybe even DSD, but I can't remember the exact technical specifics at the moment. But take my word for it (or don't ;)), it
does sound drastically better than any other previous iteration.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 28, 2021, 06:28:56 AM
No, the newer set has been remastered completely. I don't have the box set in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they did a 24-bit up conversion in the set. It maybe even DSD, but I can't remember the exact technical specifics at the moment. But take my word for it (or don't ;)), it does sound drastically better than any other previous iteration.
24 bit NOT DSD and it is better than the original versions for sure!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 28, 2021, 06:47:12 AM
24 bit NOT DSD and it is better than the original versions for sure!
Ah okay, I couldn't remember their exact remastering method.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2021, 03:35:43 AM
Interesting (OT) although if it's the same mastering as the RCA Red Seal box (which I have) why should the new set, with the picture of Previn on the front cover, sound better?
It would be interesting to listen to the two sets (Like you, Jeffrey, I have the older set). One thought: the older one gets, the worse ones hearing gets. I try hard to protect mine [As a side note, I hate all of the leaf-blowing, power-washing, blowers to apply mulch, etc., etc. that goes on in my neighborhood. I have to often wear ear protectors when outside in my yard! :( ].
PD
Sibelius, anyone?
(Although hearing deteriorates as we age, that's merely a physical thing. Our brains compensate for the hearing loss to a very large extent so our appreciation of excellent sound quality isn't really affected too much. IME anyway.)
I hadn't got into Sibelius for years and years of my listening, until last year around October, and now he is one of my favorite composers ever, his music is mind blinding great!
In particular, his 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th symphonies raise me into heights I never expected or knew of. Amazing.
Quote from: Leo K. on April 29, 2021, 07:43:59 AM
I hadn't got into Sibelius for years and years of my listening, until last year around October, and now he is one of my favorite composers ever, his music is mind blinding great!
In particular, his 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th symphonies raise me into heights I never expected or knew of. Amazing.
Excellent to read, Leo. No love for the 4th?
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 29, 2021, 07:49:04 AM
Excellent to read, Leo. No love for the 4th?
I really love the 4th too, and I should mention the famous 2nd, it is just so brilliant. I like the darkness of the 4th and the scoring, updated baroque-like textures - takes my breath away.
Quote from: Leo K. on April 29, 2021, 08:10:25 AM
I really love the 4th too, and I should mention the famous 2nd, it is just so brilliant. I like the darkness of the 4th and the scoring, updated baroque-like textures - takes my breath away.
My sentiments exactly. :) Have you investigated any of the tone poems, incidental music, solo piano music, chamber works, etc.?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 28, 2021, 08:17:40 AM
It would be interesting to listen to the two sets (Like you, Jeffrey, I have the older set). One thought: the older one gets, the worse ones hearing gets. I try hard to protect mine [As a side note, I hate all of the leaf-blowing, power-washing, blowers to apply mulch, etc., etc. that goes on in my neighborhood. I have to often wear ear protectors when outside in my yard! :( ].
PD
OT
Some years ago my wife (an audiologist) arranged an emergency hearing test for me as I 'obviously' had a serious hearing problem because I 'never responded' to anything she said. Unfortunately the test revealed that I had the hearing of a 20 year old - this was very embarrassing. Later that year we were walking round a lake in Slovenia on holiday when she accused me of not listening to something she said, pointing out that I was supposed to have perfect hearing. I said that was true, as I could hear the rain on the leaves and lots of other sounds. My wife said that my mind should have censored out those background noises. I responded by saying 'OMG that's terrible - my mind has obviously gone into some kind of weird reverse mechanism where I can hear everything other than your voice!' At that point she (playfully) attacked me.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 29, 2021, 09:26:36 AM
OT
Some years ago my wife (an audiologist) arranged an emergency hearing test for me as I 'obviously' had a serious hearing problem because I 'never responded' to anything she said. Unfortunately the test revealed that I had the hearing of a 20 year old - this was very embarrassing. Later that year we were walking round a lake in Slovenia on holiday when she accused me of not listening to something she said, pointing out that I was supposed to have perfect hearing. I said that was true, as I could hear the rain on the leaves and lots of other sounds. My wife said that my wind should have censored out those background noises. I responded by saying 'OMG that's terrible - my mind has obviously gone into some weird reverse mechanism where I can hear everything apart from your voice!' At that point she (playfully) attacked me.
Yes, interesting to hear (read) [once again] of a man's ability to filter out his partner's voice. ::) And I'm guessing that you meant to type "my mind" rather than "my wind"? ;)
PD
EDIT: By the way, I suspect that the hearing of most 20-year olds has declined a lot over the years due to ear buds and blasting of music.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 29, 2021, 09:32:09 AM
Yes, interesting to hear (read) [once again] of a man's ability to filter out his partner's voice. ::) And I'm guessing that you meant to type "my mind" rather than "my wind"? ;)
PD
EDIT: By the way, I suspect that the hearing of most 20-year olds has declined a lot over the years due to ear buds and blasting of music.
Yes, I corrected the typo PD. I'm sure you're right about the hearing of 20 year olds. If my daughter suspects that I'm not listening properly she says 'WHAT DID I JUST SAY?'
Quote from: vandermolen on April 29, 2021, 09:26:36 AM
OT
Some years ago my wife (an audiologist) arranged an emergency hearing test for me as I 'obviously' had a serious hearing problem because I 'never responded' to anything she said. Unfortunately the test revealed that I had the hearing of a 20 year old - this was very embarrassing.
Exactly the same thing happened to me, only I only did it to humour people as I knew my hearing was fine (I'm a bird watcher (and listener) and I can still hear all the little tiny squeaky notes from Australian spp such as Fairy-wrens, Thornbills &c).
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 29, 2021, 03:23:26 PM
Exactly the same thing happened to me, only I only did it to humour people as I knew my hearing was fine (I'm a bird watcher (and listener) and I can still hear all the little tiny squeaky notes from Australian spp such as Fairy-wrens, Thornbills &c).
I'd be curious to know (perhaps should start a new thread called "Your hearing"?) whether or not our older members use things like ear buds and their listening habits? In any event, good to hear that yours and Jeffrey's hearing is in good shape. There's also the difference between listening and hearing and how closely one listens to things, but....back to Sibelius!
PD
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2021, 02:20:48 AM
This has set me thinking on how many cycles I have:
Barbirolli, Maazel, Collins, Berglund x2
'Historic Performances' (Kajanus/Beecham etc)
Abravanel, Rattle, Ehrling (very good)
Rozhdestvensky, Sanderling, Ashkenazy
Segerstam, Colin Davis (RCA), Karajan/Kamu
Gibson
That makes 16 although I gave Ashkenazy, Gibson and Sanderling away to friends.
I don't know how YOU feel about it, but I reckon those were GOOD friends? Those are all three VERY fine cycles, I find.
Let me see if I can number what I have [Ah, of course I can, with the help of the
Sibelius Symphony Cycle Survey (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html))
Ashkenazy I (Decca), Barbirolli, Berglund I-III, Bernstein I & II*, Blomstedt, Collins, Davis II & III, Ehrling, Karajan EMI*, Karajan DG*, Maazel I & II, Ormandy*, Oramo, Rattle I & II, Rozhdestvensky, Sakari, Sanderling, Saraste II, Segerstam I & II, Vanska I & II, Watanabe II
* = incomplete
30, it would appear. That's definitely too much.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 29, 2021, 08:11:40 AM
My sentiments exactly. :) Have you investigated any of the tone poems, incidental music, solo piano music, chamber works, etc.?
I have listened to most of the tone poems now, and they are simply great. But I have not heard the solo piano, chamber works or incidental music - I'm probably missing out on some great stuff there - any recommendations for these genres?
Quote from: Leo K. on May 03, 2021, 09:20:16 AM
I have listened to most of the tone poems now, and they are simply great. But I have not heard the solo piano, chamber works or incidental music - I'm probably missing out on some great stuff there - any recommendations for these genres?
There aren't a lot of chamber works from Sibelius that I'd call top-drawer (almost all of them were composed well before he found his compositional voice), but he did write one masterpiece in the genre and it is
Voces intimae, Op. 56. This is an astonishing work and a must-hear, IMHO. All of the incidental music is worth hearing, but
The Tempest, Op. 109, for me, is greatest of them all. The solo piano music consists of many great miniatures, but here are a few favorites:
Kyllikki, Op. 41,
Five Characteristic Impressions, Op. 103,
Cinq morceaux, Opps. 75 & 85 and all of the
Sonatinas. Also the songs are worth your time and here it doesn't even matter what I choose, it'll be great. Happy listening!
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2021, 02:20:48 AM
This has set me thinking on how many cycles I have:
Barbirolli
Maazel
Collins
Berglund x2
'Historic Performances' (Kajanus/Beecham etc)
Abravanel
Rattle
Ehrling (very good)
Rozhdestvensky
Sanderling
Ashkenazy
Segerstam
Colin Davis (RCA)
Karajan/Kamu
Gibson
That makes 16 although I gave Ashkenazy, Gibson and Sanderling away to friends.
I love the Sanderling set. Very kind of you not to give them the Rattle set instead. 8)
Quote from: Daverz on May 03, 2021, 07:38:51 PM
I love the Sanderling set. Very kind of you not to give them the Rattle set instead. 8)
Haha - I love the Sanderling set also. I think that Rattle's No.3 is one of the very best.
I've been listening to the original version of the 5th Symphony, followed by the final version. In the earlier (1915) versioning there's a lovely bit of counterpoint at about 1 minute 42 seconds into the fourth movement, which gives it a more emotional feel, which was excised by the time of the final (1919) version. I can understand why Sibelius did this, as the 1919 version is more 'Sibelian' and reduced to what is essential I think, however, as in the concluding section of 1913 and 1920 versions Vaughan Williams's 'A London Symphony', I miss those more 'emotional' moments. There's another extraordinary passage about 6 minutes into the earlier version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony which is also missing from the final version. It's fascinating being able to make these comparisons by issuing both versions on the same CD:
(//)
Quote from: Leo K. on May 03, 2021, 09:20:16 AM
I have listened to most of the tone poems now, and they are simply great. But I have not heard the solo piano, chamber works or incidental music - I'm probably missing out on some great stuff there - any recommendations for these genres?
The incidental music is definitely worth your time and is pretty well represented in the catalogue. I bought the Naxos series conducted by Segerstam, though it isn't complete (No
Tempest, which would horrify Mirror Image). Some of the "incidental" music is not so incidental, for example
Scaramouche is a complete work.
For solo piano works, I would highly recommend Mertanen as a performer if you can hear him. When I sampled various sets, Mertanen and Servadei seemed to make a lot more of the music than some other performers. Op.24 is the most substantial set of pieces (and a bit later than that opus number suggests).
Quote from: Leo K. on May 03, 2021, 09:20:16 AM
I have listened to most of the tone poems now, and they are simply great. But I have not heard the solo piano, chamber works or incidental music - I'm probably missing out on some great stuff there - any recommendations for these genres?
I love the songs too. Sibelius is just one of those composers that I've not heard anything I dislike. It's immediately unique and casts a spell on me whatever it is. I love the orchestral songs but the chamber songs are great too. Some of the orchestral songs are borderline tone poems, quite evocative and theatrical.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2021, 05:37:32 AM
The incidental music is definitely worth your time and is pretty well represented in the catalogue. I bought the Naxos series conducted by Segerstam, though it isn't complete (No Tempest, which would horrify Mirror Image). Some of the "incidental" music is not so incidental, for example Scaramouche is a complete work.
For solo piano works, I would highly recommend Mertanen as a performer if you can hear him. When I sampled various sets, Mertanen and Servadei seemed to make a lot more of the music than some other performers. Op.24 is the most substantial set of pieces (and a bit later than that opus number suggests).
I second the Scaramouche. It is excellent.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 03, 2021, 11:56:31 PM
I've been listening to the original version of the 5th Symphony, followed by the final version. In the earlier (1915) versioning there's a lovely bit of counterpoint at about 1 minute 42 seconds into the fourth movement, which gives it a more emotional feel, which was excised by the time of the final (1919) version. I can understand why Sibelius did this, as the 1919 version is more 'Sibelian' and reduced to what is essential I think, however, as in the concluding section of 1913 and 1920 versions Vaughan Williams's 'A London Symphony', I miss those more 'emotional' moments. There's another extraordinary passage about 6 minutes into the earlier version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony which is also missing from the final version. It's fascinating being able to make these comparisons by issuing both versions on the same CD:
(//)
I like your comment about the original version being 'unSibelian', I think this is what may have sunk the Eighth Symphony.
Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2021, 05:37:32 AM
For solo piano works, I would highly recommend Mertanen as a performer if you can hear him.
Agreed. I have the Mertanen box and two single-disc recitals by Andsnes and Grasbeck ("on Sibelius' own piano"), and can't imagine ever finding any more satisfaction/delight in this repertoire than from that trio.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 04, 2021, 06:46:14 PM
I like your comment about the original version being 'unSibelian', I think this is what may have sunk the Eighth Symphony.
I have reached the conclusion that the fragments are not of the Eighth at all. I don't think anything connects them other than they are sketches and fragments written during that 30 year silence. Composers wrote ideas. Some fizzled. Some went places and were worth developing further. These were just sketches and ideas and nothing more. Far from segments of a completed work. I still have hopes that it might surface somewhere, sometime.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 04, 2021, 06:46:14 PM
I like your comment about the original version being 'unSibelian', I think this is what may have sunk the Eighth Symphony.
Interesting - thank you. I should have written that the other 'extraordinary passage' I was referring to was 6 minutes into the last movement of the 1915 version. That BIS CD featuring both versions of the 5th symphony has given me great pleasure.
Quote from: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 06:02:33 AM
I have reached the conclusion that the fragments are not of the Eighth at all. I don't think anything connects them other than they are sketches and fragments written during that 30 year silence. Composers wrote ideas. Some fizzled. Some went places and were worth developing further. These were just sketches and ideas and nothing more. Far from segments of a completed work. I still have hopes that it might surface somewhere, sometime.
I hope so too.
Quote from: relm1 on May 05, 2021, 06:02:33 AM
I have reached the conclusion that the fragments are not of the Eighth at all. I don't think anything connects them other than they are sketches and fragments written during that 30 year silence. Composers wrote ideas. Some fizzled. Some went places and were worth developing further. These were just sketches and ideas and nothing more. Far from segments of a completed work. I still have hopes that it might surface somewhere, sometime.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2021, 09:48:16 PM
I hope so too.
I'll check my attic.
PD
The 8th probably developed into a persistent mirage. But finding a big manuscript of it somewhere ... that would be fantastic.
Quote from: MusicTurner on May 06, 2021, 08:10:36 AM
The 8th probably developed into a persistent mirage. But finding a big manuscript of it somewhere ... that would be fantastic.
I doubt it exists. Didn't he throw it into a fire?
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 06, 2021, 07:32:17 PM
I doubt it exists. Didn't he throw it into a fire?
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2021, 09:55:22 AM
There aren't a lot of chamber works from Sibelius that I'd call top-drawer (almost all of them were composed well before he found his compositional voice), but he did write one masterpiece in the genre and it is Voces intimae, Op. 56. This is an astonishing work and a must-hear, IMHO. All of the incidental music is worth hearing, but The Tempest, Op. 109, for me, is greatest of them all. The solo piano music consists of many great miniatures, but here are a few favorites: Kyllikki, Op. 41, Five Characteristic Impressions, Op. 103, Cinq morceaux, Opps. 75 & 85 and all of the Sonatinas. Also the songs are worth your time and here it doesn't even matter what I choose, it'll be great. Happy listening!
Thank you for those thoughts, I shall check around, thank you all!
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.
If this was the case, I think we'd have heard the work by now. You mean to tell me that a library wouldn't notice a manuscript from the foremost Finnish composer of all-time lying around their building after roughly 90 years? I don't believe this to be the case. He burned the work, it's gone. There's nothing left with the exception of those little scraps that appeared in the BIS series.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.
Yes this. He burned his copy but would have had a copyist prepare early draft when he thought it might be near performance ready. So other people would have touched it and sometimes they could have archival copies in storage bins without realizing. When a composer dies, universities or publishers frequently get boxes of uncatalogued sketches and manuscripts and they sometimes contain significant works like Shostakovich's Orango opera that was discovered in 2004 and premiered in 2015. Part of the challenge is to what extant are the bits and pieces of these sketches ready for performance versus just interesting to musicologists and researchers. In Mahler 10, there is quite a bit of unused material that is 100% Mahler but aborted. If that was performed it would feel very rough and amateur at best. I'm talking about his sketches, not the short score (which is essentially the sketches then fully composed, and his final work, the full score which he died after only completing the first and second movement). So in sketches you might find half baked ideas, alternative thoughts (like an idea and a revised version or two of the same idea as alternates and the composer hadn't yet decided which he was going to use), music that might not be flushed out such as having place holder like block chords of what would later become counterpoint with moving lines, etc. The composer would know they'll worry about this later but in the sketch all we'll get is that snapshot. I believe this is the case of what we have with what is being called the fragments of Symphony No. 8. I think there is nothing tying it to no. 8 or if it truly was no. 8, it has practically no resemblance of what would have become of it any more than randomly pulling out a "fragment" or passage from Mahler's sketch of 10. Sure from time to time there will be something that makes to the final completed vision but most gets reshaped till it's unrecognizable or discarded.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2021, 12:41:01 AM
But there are also accounts that he had a version fair copied in the 1930s and the faint hope is that a copy is sitting in some library or storage somewhere.
That's what I'm hoping for. After all, there's the precedent of Berlioz's Messe solennelle.
Some more examples after Googling: the original manuscript of a Mozart sonata was discovered in 2014 (somewhat different from the "known" version), in 2018 an abandoned house in Chicago was found to contain a bunch of full-sized full-length scores by African-American composer Florence Price, and the original score of Malcolm Arnold's Seventh Symphony was "discovered" on eBay. In World War II, the Red Army stole an entire library of music from Berlin, and when it was returned in 2002, it was found to contain all kinds of stuff, including a "new" Vivaldi opera about Montezuma.
Quote from: relm1 on May 07, 2021, 06:11:20 AM
Yes this. He burned his copy but would have had a copyist prepare early draft when he thought it might be near performance ready. So other people would have touched it and sometimes they could have archival copies in storage bins without realizing. When a composer dies, universities or publishers frequently get boxes of uncatalogued sketches and manuscripts and they sometimes contain significant works like Shostakovich's Orango opera that was discovered in 2004 and premiered in 2015. Part of the challenge is to what extant are the bits and pieces of these sketches ready for performance versus just interesting to musicologists and researchers. In Mahler 10, there is quite a bit of unused material that is 100% Mahler but aborted. If that was performed it would feel very rough and amateur at best. I'm talking about his sketches, not the short score (which is essentially the sketches then fully composed, and his final work, the full score which he died after only completing the first and second movement). So in sketches you might find half baked ideas, alternative thoughts (like an idea and a revised version or two of the same idea as alternates and the composer hadn't yet decided which he was going to use), music that might not be flushed out such as having place holder like block chords of what would later become counterpoint with moving lines, etc. The composer would know they'll worry about this later but in the sketch all we'll get is that snapshot. I believe this is the case of what we have with what is being called the fragments of Symphony No. 8. I think there is nothing tying it to no. 8 or if it truly was no. 8, it has practically no resemblance of what would have become of it any more than randomly pulling out a "fragment" or passage from Mahler's sketch of 10. Sure from time to time there will be something that makes to the final completed vision but most gets reshaped till it's unrecognizable or discarded.
You don't seem to realise that the first thing you're agreeing to and the thing you say later in this post are pretty much opposite. You're simultaneously rejecting the small amounts of Symphony No.8 material we've been told exist, and yet presenting as an alternative that there is a much larger chunk of Symphony No.8 material sitting out there somewhere.
This is wishful thinking at its finest. I'm not saying that there couldn't possibly be further material out there to be discovered, but whether or not it exists is not remotely affected by whether or not listeners are satisfied with the known material. Accounts of a version being copied in the 1930s are evidence. A listener's feelings about sketches are not.
Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2021, 06:28:54 AM
Some more examples after Googling: the original manuscript of a Mozart sonata was discovered in 2014 (somewhat different from the "known" version), in 2018 an abandoned house in Chicago was found to contain a bunch of full-sized full-length scores by African-American composer Florence Price, and the original score of Malcolm Arnold's Seventh Symphony was "discovered" on eBay. In World War II, the Red Army stole an entire library of music from Berlin, and when it was returned in 2002, it was found to contain all kinds of stuff, including a "new" Vivaldi opera about Montezuma.
Some of Dvorak's early works (I forget which ones right now) survived because other people had copies that Dvorak had forgotten about.
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 07:31:43 AM
Some of Dvorak's early works (I forget which ones right now) survived because other people had copies that Dvorak had forgotten about.
Definitely the first symphony, I believe.
Stravinsky's big 'Chant Funebre' was only rediscovered in 2015. Some Rozycki manuscripts, including a good part of a Violin Concerto, were found buried due to WW II events, in a suitcase in his former garden, by construction workers ...
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 07:25:26 AM
You don't seem to realise that the first thing you're agreeing to and the thing you say later in this post are pretty much opposite. You're simultaneously rejecting the small amounts of Symphony No.8 material we've been told exist, and yet presenting as an alternative that there is a much larger chunk of Symphony No.8 material sitting out there somewhere.
This is wishful thinking at its finest. I'm not saying that there couldn't possibly be further material out there to be discovered, but whether or not it exists is not remotely affected by whether or not listeners are satisfied with the known material. Accounts of a version being copied in the 1930s are evidence. A listener's feelings about sketches are not.
Hmm, very odd post. I'm completely aware of what I said. I've seen boxes of materials I've seen from dead composers that have ended up in the hands of people who don't know what to make of it and some of it is from significant composers.. What are you saying?
Quote from: relm1 on May 07, 2021, 05:22:50 PM
Hmm, very odd post. I'm completely aware of what I said. I've seen boxes of materials I've seen from dead composers that have ended up in the hands of people who don't know what to make of it and some of it is from significant composers.. What are you saying?
I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 06:40:19 PM
I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.
I personally find it a waste of time in wondering what could've been and instead find solace in what has been (I hope I worded this correctly). I have zero interest in hearing Sibelius' 8th symphony (if it turns up and I'm alive to hear it). The reason I'm not is because the composer himself didn't make it a part of his oeuvre. What we do have are seven extraordinary symphonies that he was satisfied enough with to allow us to hear. The whole mystique surrounding the 8th is something I just don't understand and what I find truly confounding is the music that does exist that never gets mentioned or talked about like
The Origin of Fire, for example, which is also readily available and has been recorded several times, is completely unknown to so many listeners, but these same listeners are more curious about a symphony that was burned to ash by the composer. It'd be nice if people focused on what does exist and has been recorded instead of making speculative guesses as to whether the 8th will be found or not. At this juncture, I've heard more Sibelius than most people have and I'm thankful for his contributions in all the genres he chose to compose in. Not to beat a dead horse, but there are swarths of songs and solo piano music that many people have no idea existed because they're so hellbent on hearing every orchestral scrap he composed.
Quote from: relm1 on May 04, 2021, 05:56:42 AM
I love the songs too. Sibelius is just one of those composers that I've not heard anything I dislike. It's immediately unique and casts a spell on me whatever it is. I love the orchestral songs but the chamber songs are great too. Some of the orchestral songs are borderline tone poems, quite evocative and theatrical.
I really like Sibelius's Five Christmas Songs op. 1. And when it comes to singing, of course there is also magnificent tone poem-song Luonnotar and also cantata Tulen Synty and improvisation Snöfrid. Didn't Tempest have singing also?
Quote from: Madiel on May 07, 2021, 06:40:19 PM
I'm saying that your beliefs (on no actual evidence) that the sketches labelled as Symphony No.8 are not truly Symphony No.8 have precisely no bearing on whether or not a copy of some other Symphony No.8 material exists, despite your attempt to link the 2 issues. The fact that you find the existing material unsatisfactory does nothing to increase the probability that other material you would find satisfactory is going to be found.
Isn't the burden on you to link the two? Show how the sketches are part of the Symphony No. 8. It's not up to me to show how they don't. That's a stupid argument. A logical fallacy. You are making an assertion that they are linked so demonstrate the link. Musicologists will then shoot it down. If it says "Symphony No. 8" you have a more persuasive link. In this case, it does not at all say that. It's just collections of sketches from his last period.
Quote from: relm1 on May 08, 2021, 03:52:58 PM
Isn't the burden on you to link the two? Show how the sketches are part of the Symphony No. 8. It's not up to me to show how they don't. That's a stupid argument. A logical fallacy. You are making an assertion that they are linked so demonstrate the link. Musicologists will then shoot it down. If it says "Symphony No. 8" you have a more persuasive link. In this case, it does not at all say that. It's just collections of sketches from his last period.
That isn't what I said and I made no such assertion. Read again. Whether they're in truth part of Sibelius' plan for the symphonies or not is entirely irrelevant, the point is that your desire for something better
in no way increases the chances of something else existing to be found.
Hell's bells this shouldn't be difficult, but at least twice this week you seem to have indicated your belief in magical thinking where the world is as you wish it to be. Sibelius' true 8th is out there somewhere just because you want it to be so. Scriabin is an orchestral composer who just happened to have written over 2/3 of his music on the piano, because you want him to be an orchestral composer. Rather than expressing that you personally like Scriabin's orchestral music, you try to reshape reality.
I'm well aware that musicologists have different views as to whether or not the sketches from the late period are Symphony No.8 or not. You seem to be under the wild misapprehension that I have any independent opinion on the subject beyond the views expressed by musicologists, when I've neither seen nor heard the sketches in question, never mind not being a professional musicologist. The point here is that YOU have an opinion on the subject which so far seems to be based not on any kind of musicological expertise but on
whether you like the sketches or not. If you want to talk about stupid arguments and logical fallacies, mister, look no further.
Quote from: Madiel on May 09, 2021, 01:15:32 AM
That isn't what I said and I made no such assertion. Read again. Whether they're in truth part of Sibelius' plan for the symphonies or not is entirely irrelevant, the point is that your desire for something better in no way increases the chances of something else existing to be found.
Hell's bells this shouldn't be difficult, but at least twice this week you seem to have indicated your belief in magical thinking where the world is as you wish it to be. Sibelius' true 8th is out there somewhere just because you want it to be so. Scriabin is an orchestral composer who just happened to have written over 2/3 of his music on the piano, because you want him to be an orchestral composer. Rather than expressing that you personally like Scriabin's orchestral music, you try to reshape reality.
I'm well aware that musicologists have different views as to whether or not the sketches from the late period are Symphony No.8 or not. You seem to be under the wild misapprehension that I have any independent opinion on the subject beyond the views expressed by musicologists, when I've neither seen nor heard the sketches in question, never mind not being a professional musicologist. The point here is that YOU have an opinion on the subject which so far seems to be based not on any kind of musicological expertise but on whether you like the sketches or not. If you want to talk about stupid arguments and logical fallacies, mister, look no further.
What an odd and hostile post, based on what little of it was worth reading. Ok, tough guy, next time I have an opinion, I'll make sure you are ok with it before I post it. Switch to decaf mate.
Hostile? Whereas telling me I was making a stupid argument wasn't hostile I suppose.
You don't read and you won't learn. You are entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts, and that's the whole problem.
Over it. Going to go listen to some actual existing Sibelius.
OK, gents, it's clear that there's no love lost between the two of you, so please halt the rancor and return to listening to music (whether Sibelius or anything else).
Thank you.
--Bruce
One of my favorite Sibelius songs is "En slanda" ("A dragonfly"), which I first heard live by Karita Mattila, and then on her recording with pianist Ilmo Ranta. But stumbled across this version, arranged for full orchestra, with Soile Isokoski, conductor Leif Segerstam, and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I might prefer the intimacy of the piano version, Isokoski sounds glorious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMBmnug50g
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on May 12, 2021, 04:39:52 AM
One of my favorite Sibelius songs is "En slanda" ("A dragonfly"), which I first heard live by Karita Mattila, and then on her recording with pianist Ilmo Ranta. But stumbled across this version, arranged for full orchestra, with Soile Isokoski, conductor Leif Segerstam, and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I might prefer the intimacy of the piano version, Isokoski sounds glorious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMBmnug50g
--Bruce
I'll have to check this song out, Bruce. I'm sure I've heard it, but it wouldn't hurt to revisit it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 12, 2021, 07:42:19 AM
I'll have to check this song out, Bruce. I'm sure I've heard it, but it wouldn't hurt to revisit it.
It's beautiful how Sibelius evokes the fluttering of the insect's wings (at least, to my ears). Mattila did an entire set of Sibelius songs during a concert a few years ago, and that was the first time I'd heard any of them. Of the 100 or so, I've only heard maybe 10, and all are quite beautiful.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on May 12, 2021, 09:27:29 AM
It's beautiful how Sibelius evokes the fluttering of the insect's wings (at least, to my ears). Mattila did an entire set of Sibelius songs during a concert a few years ago, and that was the first time I'd heard any of them. Of the 100 or so, I've only heard maybe 10, and all are quite beautiful.
--Bruce
Yep, the songs are a major part of his oeuvre or, at least, for me they are. Exquisite music.
Quote from: Brewski on May 12, 2021, 09:27:29 AM
It's beautiful how Sibelius evokes the fluttering of the insect's wings (at least, to my ears). Mattila did an entire set of Sibelius songs during a concert a few years ago, and that was the first time I'd heard any of them. Of the 100 or so, I've only heard maybe 10, and all are quite beautiful.
--Bruce
Oh, cool! Were you there at the concert? I do so love her voice and singing. Over the years, I've acquired about a half dozen of her CDs including her Grieg and Sibelius one (with Oramo). I don't know that one that you've mentioned however; when did that one come out?
PD
The Stockholm Philharmonic are an excellent orchestra and free-stream some fantastic content. This looks like a wonderful series - all 7 Sibelius Symphonies in order + the violin concerto live streamed from next week with Sakari Oramo on the podium. I liked Oramo's Birmingham cycle a lot and also his live Kullervo with the BBC SO is one of the very best.....
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-i/20210519-1900/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-ii/20210522-1500/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-iii/20210526-1800/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-iv/20210529-1500/
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 12, 2021, 10:37:36 AM
Oh, cool! Were you there at the concert? I do so love her voice and singing. Over the years, I've acquired about a half dozen of her CDs including her Grieg and Sibelius one (with Oramo). I don't know that one that you've mentioned however; when did that one come out?
PD
(Sorry for the late reply -- somehow missed this last week.)
Yes, had to look it up! She did a Carnegie Hall recital in 2003, with Martin Katz at the piano, right after she had done
Jenufa at the Met.
And here is that recording. Amazon is saying 2006, which sounds right. And yes, she is just wonderful.
https://www.amazon.com/Songs-J-Sibelius/dp/B00000378O/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=mattila+sibelius&qid=1621269105&s=music&sr=1-8
--Bruce
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 13, 2021, 02:39:45 AM
The Stockholm Philharmonic are an excellent orchestra and free-stream some fantastic content. This looks like a wonderful series - all 7 Sibelius Symphonies in order + the violin concerto live streamed from next week with Sakari Oramo on the podium. I liked Oramo's Birmingham cycle a lot and also his live Kullervo with the BBC SO is one of the very best.....
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-i/20210519-1900/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-ii/20210522-1500/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-iii/20210526-1800/
https://www.konserthuset.se/en/programme/calendar/concert/2021/livestream-grande-finale--sibelius-with-oramo-iv/20210529-1500/
And wow, thank you so much for this heads-up. What incredible looking concerts. I can't make all of them live, but hope they will be archived for later viewing. Thanks again, a really mouthwatering array here.
--Bruce
This may or may not interest anyone besides me...
I'm sure many of you are aware that Sibelius' opus numbers, particularly the earlier ones, are often not a good guide to the chronology of works. This is because he rewrote the list several times and discarded earlier works that he decided weren't worthy of an opus number. And rather than shuffling everything down, he sometimes shoved in a far later work to fill a gap. So for example you have Arioso as op.3 even though it was written about the same time as the 4th symphony!
I've seen references to the earlier lists of works, but tonight I went to the university library and found the catalogue of works that includes a description of what was actually on those earlier lists. I've always been curious to know which works used to have an opus number and lost them.
And oh my goodness what a mess! I had thought that Sibelius had revised the list 2 or 3 times, but for some opus numbers he shuffled and reshuffled 8 or 10 times before finally shoving a much later work in the gap.
There were 2 lists in 1896 and 1897, then he left it alone until 1905 and then spent the next decade mucking about a lot. Things are pretty stable from op.46 onward, but for numbers before that it's all over the place.
I'm happy to try to share information if people are interested. The book records everything against the opus number (ie "here's everything that was op.1 at some point", then "here's everything that was op.2 at some point"), but for my own purposes I think I'm going to order it as "here is the 1896 list", "here is the 1897 list". Or maybe just "here are all the works that once had opus numbers but lost them".
Quote from: Madiel on May 18, 2021, 04:02:28 AM
This may or may not interest anyone besides me...
I'm sure many of you are aware that Sibelius' opus numbers, particularly the earlier ones, are often not a good guide to the chronology of works. This is because he rewrote the list several times and discarded earlier works that he decided weren't worthy of an opus number. And rather than shuffling everything down, he sometimes shoved in a far later work to fill a gap. So for example you have Arioso as op.3 even though it was written about the same time as the 4th symphony!
I've seen references to the earlier lists of works, but tonight I went to the university library and found the catalogue of works that includes a description of what was actually on those earlier lists. I've always been curious to know which works used to have an opus number and lost them.
And oh my goodness what a mess! I had thought that Sibelius had revised the list 2 or 3 times, but for some opus numbers he shuffled and reshuffled 8 or 10 times before finally shoving a much later work in the gap.
There were 2 lists in 1896 and 1897, then he left it alone until 1905 and then spent the next decade mucking about a lot. Things are pretty stable from op.46 onward, but for numbers before that it's all over the place.
I'm happy to try to share information if people are interested. The book records everything against the opus number (ie "here's everything that was op.1 at some point", then "here's everything that was op.2 at some point"), but for my own purposes I think I'm going to order it as "here is the 1896 list", "here is the 1897 list". Or maybe just "here are all the works that once had opus numbers but lost them".
Opus numbers or lack thereof don't really bother to me, but there's nothing more irritating than a composer who doesn't at least date their manuscripts. Without some kind of historical context, I don't think a work can be thoroughly analyzed and assessed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2021, 06:53:23 AM
Opus numbers or lack thereof don't really bother to me, but there's nothing more irritating than a composer who doesn't at least date their manuscripts. Without some kind of historical context, I don't think a work can be thoroughly analyzed and assessed.
I think the evidence on Sibelius' chronology is pretty solid, from a mix of his own dating (which he did do at least sometimes) and other information like letters.
The opus numbers interest me mainly because it shows what he regarded as a proper complete work. Given how many other things there are from the earlier period (including all the scraps BIS recorded) I find it helpful to know what, initially, was important enough to him to get numbered.
Quote from: Brewski on May 17, 2021, 08:37:43 AM
(Sorry for the late reply -- somehow missed this last week.)
Yes, had to look it up! She did a Carnegie Hall recital in 2003, with Martin Katz at the piano, right after she had done Jenufa at the Met.
And here is that recording. Amazon is saying 2006, which sounds right. And yes, she is just wonderful.
https://www.amazon.com/Songs-J-Sibelius/dp/B00000378O/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=mattila+sibelius&qid=1621269105&s=music&sr=1-8
--Bruce
So, this is a live recording? And you were there at the concert?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on May 19, 2021, 01:11:15 PM
So, this is a live recording? And you were there at the concert?
PD
I think the recording is a studio version. But yes, I was at the concert! Was trying to find the article I wrote about it, but no luck.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on May 20, 2021, 06:40:13 AM
I think the recording is a studio version. But yes, I was at the concert! Was trying to find the article I wrote about it, but no luck.
--Bruce
I'm envious that you were there as she's a favorite singer of mine. If you manage to find the article, I'd love to read it. :)
PD
From WAYLTN thread:
I'm able to listen to this new release right through from beginning to end with much pleasure. Luonnotar now playing:
Review from the Sunday Times this week:
'Davidsen is not the first non-Finnish singer to tackle Sibelius's vocal tone poem but she brings a youthful, Nordic freshness to this music inspired by the creation myth in the Finnish epic poen 'Kalevala'. Gardner proves himself another fine British Sibelian in the late symphonic poem 'Tapiola', in incidental music for 'Pelleas' (Davidsen sings Melisande's song), 'Rakastava', and the brief but lovely 'Spring Song.'
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 06, 2021, 12:11:19 AM
From WAYLTN thread:
I'm able to listen to this new release right through from beginning to end with much pleasure. Luonnotar now playing:
Review from the Sunday Times this week:
'Davidsen is not the first non-Finnish singer to tackle Sibelius's vocal tone poem but she brings a youthful, Nordic freshness to this music inspired by the creation myth in the Finnish epic poen 'Kalevala'. Gardner proves himself another fine British Sibelian in the late symphonic poem 'Tapiola', in incidental music for 'Pelleas' (Davidsen sings Melisande's song), 'Rakastava', and the brief but lovely 'Spring Song.'
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=341.0;attach=75196;image)
Great stuff, Jeffrey. 8) I've been rather disappointed by Gardner's conducting, but he has turned in some fine performances, especially of Britten and Lutoslawski. I've got his Walton series, but I need to listen to them at some juncture.
At last this fascinating work has clicked on me. I'm talking about his Symphony No. 6 in D minor (?), Op. 104. The first movement sounded to me more in C major most of the time, but it does finish in a sort of D minor. For me it represents the Finnish four seasons: spring, summer, autumn and winter. Here Sibelius speaks with a more feminine approach. The music also seems to describe a beautiful nymph who inhabited those mystical and breathtaking lakes. I'm really shocked by how wonderful this symphony is. Sibelius was a real bard of the Finnish forests.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zb21GcjrL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 22, 2021, 03:45:26 PM
At last this fascinating work has clicked on me. I'm talking about his Symphony No. 6 in D minor (?), Op. 104. The first movement sounded to me more in C major most of the time, but it does finish in a sort of D minor. For me it represents the Finnish four seasons: spring, summer, autumn and winter. Here Sibelius speaks with a more feminine approach. The music also seems to describe a beautiful nymph who inhabited those mystical and breathtaking lakes. I'm really shocked by how wonderful this symphony is. Sibelius was a real bard of the Finnish forests.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zb21GcjrL._SL1200_.jpg)
Excellent to read. It took awhile for the 6th to click for me as well, but the performance that did it for me was Vänskä/Lahti on BIS. For years, I just didn't get this symphony, but there was something about Vänskä's approach that made sense --- I think one of the trappings of the 6th is so often you'll have a conductor who is just too heavy-handed with it. Almost like they muddle up the texture but, in my view, the lighter on its feet it is, the better it'll go. This is why Vänskä was such a revelation to me. The Lahti SO aren't a huge orchestra and I think this definitely plays to their advantage in the 6th. Anyway, love the symphony and the whole snow-blown feeling it seems to project or, at least, it does to me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 22, 2021, 07:25:25 PM
Excellent to read. It took awhile for the 6th to click for me as well, but the performance that did it for me was Vänskä/Lahti on BIS. For years, I just didn't get this symphony, but there was something about Vänskä's approach that made sense --- I think one of the trappings of the 6th is so often you'll have a conductor who is just too heavy-handed with it. Almost like they muddle up the texture but, in my view, the lighter on its feet it is, the better it'll go. This is why Vänskä was such a revelation to me. The Lahti SO aren't a huge orchestra and I think this definitely plays to their advantage in the 6th. Anyway, love the symphony and the whole snow-blown feeling it seems to project or, at least, it does to me.
I take your point about the "lightness" with which this work should be interpreted. It's one of Sibelius's most subtle works, and certainly a bold reading wouldn't benefit it. This performance under Blomstedt really opened my ears. Absolutely gorgeous and not heavy-handed at all. I was missing an extraordinary piece. The first movement is particularly sublime to me.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 23, 2021, 06:48:49 PM
I take your point about the "lightness" with which this work should be interpreted. It's one of Sibelius's most subtle works, and certainly a bold reading wouldn't benefit it. This performance under Blomstedt really opened my ears. Absolutely gorgeous and not heavy-handed at all. I was missing an extraordinary piece. The first movement is particularly sublime to me.
Have you heard the Vänskä/Lahti SO performance on BIS? If not, do give this one a listen. I didn't care much for Blomstedt's Sibelius truth be told. I don't know what it is exactly, but he doesn't excite me in the way Karajan, Berglund or Vänskä does.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 23, 2021, 07:21:11 PM
Have you heard the Vänskä/Lahti SO performance on BIS? If not, do give this one a listen. I didn't care much for Blomstedt's Sibelius truth be told. I don't know what it is exactly, but he doesn't excite me in the way Karajan, Berglund or Vänskä does.
No, I haven't yet. In fact, I am zero familiar with that cycle.
As to Blomstedt, I beg to differ. Those performances leave nothing to be desired. Symphonies 1, 6 and 7 are especially satisfying.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 23, 2021, 07:53:46 PM
No, I haven't yet. In fact, I am zero familiar with that cycle.
As to Blomstedt, I beg to differ. Those performances leave nothing to be desired. Symphonies 1, 6 and 7 are especially satisfying.
I guess I like my Sibelius a bit more icier than most. ;) For me, the true significance of a Sibelius cycle is how a conductor handles the 4th, which is my favorite Sibelius symphony. I'll have to revisit the Blomstedt and see how well he does as I don't quite remember this performance.
Interesting to read about several of you having difficulty initially "cracking the nut" as it were of Sibelius' sixth symphony. I didn't have any problem at all. Goes to show, yet again, how differently we all react to music and that our journeys are all different. :) Loved it at first hearing. Trying to remember whose version I listened to first...not certain. Early versions that I acquired were the Lahti/Vanska one with No. 7 and Tapiola and also the LSO Live one with Colin Davis.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 03:34:36 AM
Interesting to read about several of you having difficulty initially "cracking the nut" as it were of Sibelius' sixth symphony. I didn't have any problem at all. Goes to show, yet again, how differently we all react to music and that our journeys are all different. :) Loved it at first hearing. Trying to remember whose version I listened to first...not certain. Early versions that I acquired were the Lahti/Vanska one with No. 7 and Tapiola and also the LSO Live one with Colin Davis.
PD
It took me a few hearings as I was quite young when I first heard it, but it soon became my favourite of the Sibelius symphonies, or at least tied with the 4th (which was a tougher nut for me). I find the 6th to be the most evocative of his symphonies... for me it evokes a number of fleeting images, but the strongest has always been of a journey by train (or by sleigh?) through a magical winter landscape. I guess it means something different for everyone... when I played it for my partner 20 years ago or so, she said it was like a lively conversation with friends! :)
I went back today to wrapping my head around Sibelius' earlier attempts at opus numbers.
I'm definitely going to try listening to the 20-or-so works that he initially thought were worthy of getting numbered, before screwing up the first 34 opus numbers to an amazing degree.
There's a lot less disruption after that. But still some curiosities, like how there were actually 3 pieces thought of as "Dance-Intermezzos" (which I already knew) and they were probably grouped together at one point as a single opus (which I did not).
Quote from: krummholz on August 24, 2021, 05:09:19 AM
It took me a few hearings as I was quite young when I first heard it, but it soon became my favourite of the Sibelius symphonies, or at least tied with the 4th (which was a tougher nut for me). I find the 6th to be the most evocative of his symphonies... for me it evokes a number of fleeting images, but the strongest has always been of a journey by train (or by sleigh?) through a magical winter landscape. I guess it means something different for everyone... when I played it for my partner 20 years ago or so, she said it was like a lively conversation with friends! :)
Nice! :)
Just had an enjoyable revisit with it on this CD:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNzM0OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
PD
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 22, 2021, 03:45:26 PM
At last this fascinating work has clicked on me. I'm talking about his Symphony No. 6 in D minor (?), Op. 104. The first movement sounded to me more in C major most of the time, but it does finish in a sort of D minor. For me it represents the Finnish four seasons: spring, summer, autumn and winter. Here Sibelius speaks with a more feminine approach. The music also seems to describe a beautiful nymph who inhabited those mystical and breathtaking lakes. I'm really shocked by how wonderful this symphony is. Sibelius was a real bard of the Finnish forests.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zb21GcjrL._SL1200_.jpg)
Agree with everything you've said! I wish there were more symphonies that evoked images of bodies of water, forests, etc. I used to watch Rally racing and Finland's geography is pretty similar to ours near the larger lakes. Always wonderful hearing this music in the late fall and winter. I will play Blomstedt in the 6th this evening :)
Edit: my favorite "new" to me Sibelius performance of the second. Blown away by how good it was, not easy to do in a piece that can lend itself to too much over familiarity
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QHFrxHUEL.jpg)
How do you folks find Blomstedt's Sibelius symphonic cycle to be overall?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 06:46:01 AM
How do you folks find Blomstedt's Sibelius symphonic cycle to be overall?
PD
Although I spoke of Blomstedt with some ambivalence last night, this is a question I'm wondering as well as I'm always looking for more Sibelius to rip to my computer. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 24, 2021, 06:59:22 AM
Although I spoke of Blomstedt with some ambivalence last night, this is a question I'm wondering as well as I'm always looking for more Sibelius to rip to my computer. ;)
Well, I've found some samples here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blomstedt+sibelius :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 07:01:55 AM
Well, I've found some samples here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blomstedt+sibelius :)
PD
Well, I own the box set, so I'll just listen to it that way. ;) Thanks anyway, PD. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 24, 2021, 07:14:33 AM
Well, I own the box set, so I'll just listen to it that way. ;) Thanks anyway, PD. :)
Sorry, the dangers of speed reading! ::)
In any event, if others want to check out the recordings, they are there! :)
PD
I think it's a very good cycle. I hear no weaknesses from start to finish. YMMV as I tend to like the early symphonies played in a more balanced manner without over the top bombastic romanticness.
Quote from: hvbias on August 24, 2021, 07:36:14 AM
I think it's a very good cycle. I hear no weaknesses from start to finish. YMMV as I tend to like the early symphonies played in a more balanced manner without over the top bombastic romanticness.
Thank you for sharing your comments and view hvbias! :)
PD
Quote from: hvbias on August 24, 2021, 07:36:14 AM
I think it's a very good cycle. I hear no weaknesses from start to finish. YMMV as I tend to like the early symphonies played in a more balanced manner without over the top bombastic romanticness.
Interesting. Thanks for the feedback. Truth be told, I listen to the 1st and 2nd less than the other five.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 06:46:01 AM
How do you folks find Blomstedt's Sibelius symphonic cycle to be overall?
PD
Excellent but I prefer Vanska and Segerstam.
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2021, 09:25:50 AM
Excellent but I prefer Vanska and Segerstam.
Don't know Segerstam's recordings, but thank you for chiming in! :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 09:56:22 AM
Don't know Segerstam's recordings, but thank you for chiming in! :)
PD
Segerstam is an excellent Sibelian, but I don't find him too convincing in the 6th --- like so many who have conducted this symphony, it's just too heavy-handed. Other than this, I have no complaints about his Helsinki cycle on Ondine. I haven't heard his Danish cycle on Chandos, but it's difficult to track down since it's OOP and quite expensive.
Y'all have piqued my curiosity about the Blomstedt set. I'm very fond of his work in San Francisco, and in Dresden with the Staatskapelle. But I already have a Sibelius set that I need to explore further, as I've barely touched it since receiving it in the winter...:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61pV6AbbacL._SL500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 24, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
Segerstam is an excellent Sibelian, but I don't find him too convincing in the 6th --- like so many who have conducted this symphony, it's just too heavy-handed. Other than this, I have no complaints about his Helsinki cycle on Ondine. I haven't heard his Danish cycle on Chandos, but it's difficult to track down since it's OOP and quite expensive.
You'll probably throw a brick at me for this... but I really like Karajan's 6th.
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2021, 02:25:57 PM
You'll probably throw a brick at me for this... but I really like Karajan's 6th.
I do, too, along with his 4th and 7th. Don't care for his 5th. (Talking about the DG recordings here; I've never heard his EMI Sibelius.)
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2021, 02:25:57 PM
You'll probably throw a brick at me for this... but I really like Karajan's 6th.
You're certainly not wrong for liking this performance, Dave. I kind of like it, too, but I think this is as much of a testament to Karajan's conducting as anything. He's done such excellent work in Sibelius except I don't like those later EMI recordings that much --- they're a bit too smoothed over for my tastes. Oh and unlike vers la flamme, I really enjoy Karajan's 5th on DG. Excellent performance.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 24, 2021, 02:09:05 PM
Y'all have piqued my curiosity about the Blomstedt set. I'm very fond of his work in San Francisco, and in Dresden with the Staatskapelle. But I already have a Sibelius set that I need to explore further, as I've barely touched it since receiving it in the winter...:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61pV6AbbacL._SL500_.jpg)
The Ashkenazy is what I have and I'm rather happy with it. I do remember someone doing a review of cycles (maybe on MusicWeb International?) and going "hang on a minute, this Ashkenazy set is rather consistent!"
Probably not the iciest readings if you want your Sibelius icy, but damn there's some good brass in there...
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 22, 2021, 03:45:26 PM
At last this fascinating work has clicked on me. I'm talking about his Symphony No. 6 in D minor (?), Op. 104.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zb21GcjrL._SL1200_.jpg)
I judge most Sibelius cycles by their version of the 6th; for me it's the essential Sibelius symphony. I also completely disagree with all of your hermeneutical & analytical characterisations of it, but that's a separate issue.
Based on that judgment Blomstedt was the first full Sibelius cycle I bought (replacing Colin Davis in Boston, which someone had lent me copies of, but which I was always unsatisfied with). I have in recent years expanded my Sibelius collections, and been able to narrow down an individual favourite recording of almost every symphony, but Blomstedt is probably still first among equals of the various cycles I have, and part of that is due to his performance of the 6th. There is one better one (or at least one more to my taste) that I know of, Hans Rosbaud & the KRSO.
The 6th is resolutely unclassical or anti-classical, its musical language derived much more from the Renaissance (to start with, it is not "in D minor"; it is in the Dorian mode). Nonetheless those who prefer a more classical view may be more drawn to classicising recordings, such as Davis or Ashkenazy (either one).
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 24, 2021, 02:53:26 PM
I do, too, along with his 4th and 7th. Don't care for his 5th. (Talking about the DG recordings here; I've never heard his EMI Sibelius.)
I agree on all three fronts. Especially the 4th. I didn't care for that symphony until I heard Karajan.
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2021, 06:27:02 PM
I agree on all three fronts. Especially the 4th. I didn't care for that symphony until I heard Karajan.
Yep, same here.
I am not a great Sibelian and Ashkenazy was one of my first (I had borrowed some of Bernstein's before and had one twofer (1,2,4,5) with Davis/Boston) but I have always liked it and the 1980s sound holds also up very well. There was a huge review ("Sibeliusaurus") on the web a few years ago and while this guy had different recommendations for singles, the Ashkenazy/Philharmonia cycle was one of the best cycles.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 25, 2021, 02:31:27 AM
There was a huge review ("Sibeliusaurus") on the web a few years ago and while this guy had different recommendations for singles, the Ashkenazy/Philharmonia cycle was one of the best cycles.
That might be the one I was thinking of.
I think I made out good with Berglund/Bournemouth/EMI as my first cycle, back when I was very new to classical music. Still my favorite performances of every single symphony (except maybe the 4th where HvK edges out), though I've heard far from all of them.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 25, 2021, 01:52:26 PM
I think I made out good with Berglund/Bournemouth/EMI as my first cycle, back when I was very new to classical music. Still my favorite performances of every single symphony (except maybe the 4th where HvK edges out), though I've heard far from all of them.
Yes that is a great set!!
Quote from: amw on August 24, 2021, 05:39:42 PM
Blomstedt was the first full Sibelius cycle I bought (replacing Colin Davis in Boston, which someone had lent me copies of, but which I was always unsatisfied with).
Interesting. The Davis/Boston Sixth was the performance that finally made me appreciate, no,
love this symphony after 20 some years not getting it. Part of the reason it worked was Davis's swift speed in the first movement. At 7:51 it is the quickest among the 23 versions I own which makes the abrupt ending even more abrupt, more enigmatic and strange. That appealed to me for some reason...and still does.
Sarge
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 25, 2021, 01:52:26 PM
I think I made out good with Berglund/Bournemouth/EMI as my first cycle, back when I was very new to classical music. Still my favorite performances of every single symphony (except maybe the 4th where HvK edges out), though I've heard far from all of them.
I have the 1960s recording of the 4th from Karajan, is that the only one he recorded for DG? I swear you could have probably put in for a PhD to catalog Karajan's discography prior to someone writing a book on it.
Quote from: hvbias on August 25, 2021, 04:59:07 PM
I have the 1960s recording of the 4th from Karajan, is that the only one he recorded for DG? I swear you could have probably put in for a PhD to catalog Karajan's discography prior to someone writing a book on it.
Yes, I believe this is the only 4th he's recorded for DG and thank goodness, because I have this one imprinted in my mind that I don't think another performance could top. The later performance on EMI doesn't even come close.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 25, 2021, 05:04:55 PM
Yes, I believe this is the only 4th he's recorded for DG and thank goodness, because I have this one imprinted in my mind that I don't think another performance could top. The later performance on EMI doesn't even come close.
Thanks, I have no memory of either other than thinking the EMI cycle's recording quality sounded off. Will give that DG 4th a listen now.
Quote from: hvbias on August 25, 2021, 05:11:08 PM
Thanks, I have no memory of either other than thinking the EMI cycle's recording quality sounded off. Will give that DG 4th a listen now.
Excellent. Will be curious to read your impressions of this Karajan 4th on DG.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2021, 03:14:36 PM
Interesting. The Davis/Boston Sixth was the performance that finally made me appreciate, no, love this symphony after 20 some years not getting it. Part of the reason it worked was Davis's swift speed in the first movement. At 7:51 it is the quickest among the 23 versions I own which makes the abrupt ending even more abrupt, more enigmatic and strange. That appealed to me for some reason...and still does.
I think it's just different conceptions of the music and what it means, etc. I've probably made clear my own unusual and extreme reaction to the 6th over the years on here. (Rosbaud's 6th opening movement is 11:16, which is part of the reason it works for
me.)
Quote from: amw on August 25, 2021, 06:46:59 PM
I think it's just different conceptions of the music and what it means, etc. I've probably made clear my own unusual and extreme reaction to the 6th over the years on here. (Rosbaud's 6th opening movement is 11:16, which is part of the reason it works for me.)
That's extraordinary. The slowest version I have is Rozhdestvensky (9:51).
Sarge
Didn't Schneevoigt record the sixth? And, from what I understand, he knew Sibelius. Do we know whether or not Sibelius heard the recording and if so, did he have any comments regarding the opening movement or the work overall? And what were his (Schneevoigt's) timings like?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 26, 2021, 10:40:52 AM
Didn't Schneevoigt record the sixth? And, from what I understand, he knew Sibelius. Do we know whether or not Sibelius heard the recording and if so, did he have any comments regarding the opening movement or the work overall? And what were his (Schneevoigt's) timings like?
PD
Yes, he did record it (its first recording actually) in 1934. His first movement is 8:19
Sarge
@MI, I will come back to Karajan in the 4th and will be sure to update the thread, I ended up finishing off Salome that I'd started earlier in the day.
Just finished listening to the 6th (Segerstam/Helsinki), I still find myself in agreement with Symphonic Addict on what he wrote about it a few pages ago, maybe except for the part about the nymph, my imagination doesn't quite run that freely though :laugh:
This one comes in at 9:27 in the opening movement but I've never paid attention to the timings of this? It doesn't seem like it would be that esoteric for a performance that is ~ 20% slower than most? I see a lot of places where Rosbaud could take it slowly and I can understand how him of all people could make it work.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 22, 2021, 03:45:26 PM
At last this fascinating work has clicked on me. I'm talking about his Symphony No. 6 in D minor (?), Op. 104. The first movement sounded to me more in C major most of the time, but it does finish in a sort of D minor. For me it represents the Finnish four seasons: spring, summer, autumn and winter. Here Sibelius speaks with a more feminine approach. The music also seems to describe a beautiful nymph who inhabited those mystical and breathtaking lakes. I'm really shocked by how wonderful this symphony is. Sibelius was a real bard of the Finnish forests.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Zb21GcjrL._SL1200_.jpg)
I agree - it's a wonderfully atmospheric and unique work. A few years ago I listened to it while walking outside in the snow - a most magical experience!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2021, 01:35:25 PM
Yes, he did record it (its first recording actually) in 1934. His first movement is 8:19
Sarge
Yes, but I'm still wondering as to what (if it's known) Sibelius thoughst about it. My feeling: I don't go by the timings per se, I care more about the interpretation overall. Any idea as to what Sibelius thought about it/comments? And, very importantly, how would the recording format have possibly influenced his decisions re speed and/or cuts? Just some thoughts. :)
PD
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2021, 08:03:30 AM
That's extraordinary. The slowest version I have is Rozhdestvensky (9:51).
He is an outlier, obviously. I also own the second slowest version, Segerstam/DNRSO, at 10:00, and one of the fastest, Beecham/RPO, at 7:35 (though the orchestra can't always keep up).
It's clear that in his own time, almost all of Sibelius's music was played faster than is usual nowadays, although some conductors do attempt to approximate these tempi (Berglund COE, Vänskä Lahti, Mägi Uppsala etc).
Of recordings of the 6th, since I know most people who don't already view it the way I do won't be convinced by the Rosbaud recording, I usually recommend Blomstedt as first choice for overall emotional effect.
If we have to use words to paint pictures to describe music, for me the opening of the 6th evokes gothic arches, as of a ruined abbey by moonlight, or maybe of the sort that appear naturally in tall-standing forests.
I like Blomstedt having bought his coupling of the 4th and 5th when it was first released on CD, but haven't heard his other Sibelius recordings. I listened to his 6th yesterday and was initially disturbed by the schmaltzy vibrato from the SF strings. In this music I think a more keening tone works better - for example in Karajan's classic DG recording. This music definitely seems to me to have some tristesse about it - although in saying that I may be unduly influenced by DG's cover image ...
(https://img.discogs.com/KnuYDvZyF6lWWQRtzXOQMtRSTYo=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4932893-1461327262-4225.jpeg.jpg)
Quote from: aukhawk on August 27, 2021, 01:24:05 AM
If we have to use words to paint pictures to describe music, for me the opening of the 6th evokes gothic arches, as of a ruined abbey by moonlight, or maybe of the sort that appear naturally in tall-standing forests.
I like Blomstedt having bought his coupling of the 4th and 5th when it was first released on CD, but haven't heard his other Sibelius recordings. I listened to his 6th yesterday and was initially disturbed by the schmaltzy vibrato from the SF strings. In this music I think a more keening tone works better - for example in Karajan's classic DG recording. This music definitely seems to me to have some tristesse about it - although in saying that I may be unduly influenced by DG's cover image ...
(https://img.discogs.com/KnuYDvZyF6lWWQRtzXOQMtRSTYo=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4932893-1461327262-4225.jpeg.jpg)
I like that cover image as well and I also think highly of Karajan's DGG recording. I like the old Anthony Collins version as well:
(//)
Quote from: aukhawk on August 27, 2021, 01:24:05 AM
If we have to use words to paint pictures to describe music, for me the opening of the 6th evokes gothic arches, as of a ruined abbey by moonlight, or maybe of the sort that appear naturally in tall-standing forests.
I like Blomstedt having bought his coupling of the 4th and 5th when it was first released on CD, but haven't heard his other Sibelius recordings. I listened to his 6th yesterday and was initially disturbed by the schmaltzy vibrato from the SF strings. In this music I think a more keening tone works better - for example in Karajan's classic DG recording. This music definitely seems to me to have some tristesse about it - although in saying that I may be unduly influenced by DG's cover image ...
(https://img.discogs.com/KnuYDvZyF6lWWQRtzXOQMtRSTYo=/fit-in/600x596/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4932893-1461327262-4225.jpeg.jpg)
I have no idea what your image is of as all I get is the outlines of a big square with a small blue box with a question mark inside! ::)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 27, 2021, 02:29:40 AM
I have no idea what your image is of as all I get is the outlines of a big square with a small blue box with a question mark inside! ::)
PD
Is this any clearer?
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on August 27, 2021, 02:38:03 AM
Is this any clearer?
(//)
Yes, brilliant! Thank you. :)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 24, 2021, 06:42:42 AM
Nice! :)
Just had an enjoyable revisit with it on this CD:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNzM0OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)
PD
This Sibelius 6. For me, amongst many worthy recordings, this is my current favourite.
Quote from: aukhawk on August 27, 2021, 01:24:05 AM
If we have to use words to paint pictures to describe music, for me the opening of the 6th evokes gothic arches, as of a ruined abbey by moonlight, or maybe of the sort that appear naturally in tall-standing forests.
This is a lovely description. Thank you. Excellent.
What do people think of Bernstein's 1960's NYPO cycle? He was on fire during this period so curious to check it out.
Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
What do people think of Bernstein's 1960's NYPO cycle? He was on fire during this period so curious to check it out.
+1 for Bernstein. Only a fairly recent encounter for me via the remastered set but you're right it does blaze. Not so much of the brooding Northern Forests going on here more your Kalevala Epics but I love it!
Agreed, Bernstein's cycle is fantastic. I didn't know that it had been remastered. I really feel like it's time to start listening to some Sibelius today whether it be Vanska, Segerstam, Bernstein, Karajan... it is time for Sibelius!!
Quote from: DavidW on August 27, 2021, 07:23:15 AM
Agreed, Bernstein's cycle is fantastic. I didn't know that it had been remastered. I really feel like it's time to start listening to some Sibelius today whether it be Vanska, Segerstam, Bernstein, Karajan... it is time for Sibelius!!
you won't go wrong with any of those sets - although I'd add a bit of Berglund for extra Nordic cragginess!
Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
What do people think of Bernstein's 1960's NYPO cycle? He was on fire during this period so curious to check it out.
Very likely the best version of No. 2 on record. A lot of the others are also pretty good.
Bernstein's NYPO 5th is my personal favorite also.
EDIT: To be more helpful - very warm romantic heartfelt interpretations, not the "icy cold" frigidity of some of the other cycles out there. Bigger richer orchestral sound. Suits me.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 27, 2021, 08:22:42 AM
you won't go wrong with any of those sets - although I'd add a bit of Berglund for extra Nordic cragginess!
Yes you convinced me. I've been listening to Berglund today. First the 6th then the 4th.
On amw's recommendation I listened to Rosbaud's Sibelius 6 and, such is the spell of the work (probably my favourite Sibelius symphony), that didn't even notice that the first movement was very slow!
I listened on my streaming service (YouTube) but unfortunately it's obvious that, even though it's a great recording, the recording quality of the original isn't good enough to make it a recommendation.
Rosbaud's is my favourite Bruckner 7, and ever since hearing it I haven't enjoyed any recording with the cymbal clash and triangle in the slow movement.
Quote from: kyjo on August 26, 2021, 02:57:49 PM
I agree - it's a wonderfully atmospheric and unique work. A few years ago I listened to it while walking outside in the snow - a most magical experience!
Snow + the 6th match quite well. It's almost inevitable to talk about that work without linking it with winter.
Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
What do people think of Bernstein's 1960's NYPO cycle? He was on fire during this period so curious to check it out.
I like Bernstein's Sibelius cycle a lot. It's been remastered, so be sure to get the remastered set even if you have to buy it as a digital download. It's worth hearing for sure. I rank him as a top-drawer Sibelian without a doubt.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 27, 2021, 08:07:13 PM
I like Bernstein's Sibelius cycle a lot. It's been remastered, so be sure to get the remastered set even if you have to buy it as a digital download. It's worth hearing for sure. I rank him as a top-drawer Sibelian without a doubt.
Same here.
I listened to a transfer of the ICA Classics CD of Hans Rosbaud in the 6th. From the first movement where he seems to take most of his time is in the beginning leading up to the tympanis bringing in that "spring is in bloom", where he is about 30 seconds to a minute slower than most. The first movement sounds completely natural to me.
I generally find the raw soundboards from these Cologne Broadcasts sound better than ICA Classics or SWR reissues, here I find the ICA CD listenable.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 27, 2021, 06:34:26 PM
Snow + the 6th match quite well. It's almost inevitable to talk about that work without linking it with winter.
My feeling about it as well. As I recall, Sibelius's subtitle (or maybe more of a motto) for the work was "As shadows lengthen..."
Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
What do people think of Bernstein's 1960's NYPO cycle? He was on fire during this period so curious to check it out.
This was my first exposure to all of the Sibelius symphonies (except the 1st, which I first heard as performed by Ormandy and the Philadelphians). The one caveat I'll give is that he takes the coda to the finale of the 4th VERY slowly. For many years I assumed that the slower tempo was actually in the score, but after listening to Sir Colin Davis, I realized that this was probably not true and that Lenny was taking enormous liberties here. (I've yet to see the score - should probably look for it online.)
In any case, today I prefer Davis in the 4th, but Bernstein in most of the others. Alas, I only had the set on LP and no longer own it (nor a turntable to play vinyl). Good to hear it's been remastered, may order it soon.
Digging the 6th lately after some talk about it in this thread. I'm starting to see it as kind of like a sister to the more popular 7th. The Karajan/DG is a really great one. Sibelius is great to listen to in the winter time, sure, but for whatever reason Sibelius sounds great on these hot August days in the American south.
Quote from: krummholz on August 28, 2021, 10:21:08 AM
This was my first exposure to all of the Sibelius symphonies (except the 1st, which I first heard as performed by Ormandy and the Philadelphians). The one caveat I'll give is that he takes the coda to the finale of the 4th VERY slowly. For many years I assumed that the slower tempo was actually in the score, but after listening to Sir Colin Davis, I realized that this was probably not true and that Lenny was taking enormous liberties here. (I've yet to see the score - should probably look for it online.)
In any case, today I prefer Davis in the 4th, but Bernstein in most of the others. Alas, I only had the set on LP and no longer own it (nor a turntable to play vinyl). Good to hear it's been remastered, may order it soon.
But which Davis? My go to set is Davis/BSO but I dislike Davis/LSO. It lacks everything that made the Boston set great.
Quote from: krummholz on August 28, 2021, 10:15:51 AM
My feeling about it as well. As I recall, Sibelius's subtitle (or maybe more of a motto) for the work was "As shadows lengthen..."
... over a mystical frozen lake, surrounded by a snowy forest...
I get tired of the constant association of Sibelius with winter. You'd think that Finland only had one season.
Quote from: Madiel on August 28, 2021, 11:05:28 PM
I get tired of the constant association of Sibelius with winter. You'd think that Finland only had one season.
Like Australia?
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 29, 2021, 03:33:33 AM
Like Australia?
We've got an entire continent here, and given that in winter I have nights below zero and in summer I can have days of 40 degrees I'd say that I have seasons. You just have stereotypes.
Quote from: Madiel on August 28, 2021, 11:05:28 PM
I get tired of the constant association of Sibelius with winter. You'd think that Finland only had one season.
That is kind of like how Hollywood movies always use a yellow tint in depicting Mexico, everything in South America is in the amazon, and all of India looks like the slums of Mumbai.
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2021, 06:06:03 AM
That is kind of like how Hollywood movies always use a yellow tint in depicting Mexico, everything in South America is in the amazon, and all of India looks like the slums of Mumbai.
Yep.
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2021, 06:06:03 AM
That is kind of like how Hollywood movies always use a yellow tint in depicting Mexico, everything in South America is in the amazon, and all of India looks like the slums of Mumbai.
Old American films set in London (Sherlock Holmes etc) always show it encased in fog.
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2021, 06:21:55 AM
Old American films set in London (Sherlock Holmes etc) always show it encased in fog.
(//)
Or raining! ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2021, 06:21:55 AM
Old American films set in London (Sherlock Holmes etc) always show it encased in fog.
(//)
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2021, 06:30:33 AM
Or raining! ;D
I was trying to locate a comic strip that I remember from 1970's or '80's which I vividly recall--alas, I couldn't find it online to share. It was a Hagar The Horrible cartoon of Hagar (a Viking) walking along with his skinny Viking cohort. The first two or three frames were of them trodding along through the countryside getting soaked in the rain. The next frame, they were walking along on a nice sunny day. Last frame: they were back to tromping along in the rain with Hagar saying to his friend "That was summertime in England".
;)
PD
Quote from: Madiel on August 29, 2021, 05:25:28 AM
We've got an entire continent here, and given that in winter I have nights below zero and in summer I can have days of 40 degrees I'd say that I have seasons. You just have stereotypes.
Duh... no really.... I had NO IDEA
Quote from: krummholz on August 28, 2021, 10:21:08 AM
This was my first exposure to all of the Sibelius symphonies (except the 1st, which I first heard as performed by Ormandy and the Philadelphians). The one caveat I'll give is that he takes the coda to the finale of the 4th VERY slowly. For many years I assumed that the slower tempo was actually in the score, but after listening to Sir Colin Davis, I realized that this was probably not true and that Lenny was taking enormous liberties here. (I've yet to see the score - should probably look for it online.)
In any case, today I prefer Davis in the 4th, but Bernstein in most of the others. Alas, I only had the set on LP and no longer own it (nor a turntable to play vinyl). Good to hear it's been remastered, may order it soon.
If you're looking for the Bernstein 60s set remastered, you probably won't find it and if you do, it'll be for a high price. I had looked for it some time ago, but ended up just going with a digital download from Qobuz, which I don't really like to do. I own this older Bernstein set:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415gRJ4b5KL.jpg)
But the recent remastering makes the aural image much clearer and this alone makes it preferable to the older set.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 07:20:17 AM
If you're looking for the Bernstein 60s set remastered, you probably won't find it and if you do, it'll be for a high price. I had looked for it some time ago, but ended up just going with a digital download from Qobuz, which I don't really like to do. I own this older Bernstein set:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415gRJ4b5KL.jpg)
But the recent remastering makes the aural image much clearer and this alone makes it preferable to the older set.
Me too John. Great set.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2021, 11:01:44 AM
Me too John. Great set.
When did they remaster it? For what its worth, I read some mixed-comments about at least a recent remastering.
I have the 1960's as part of a 2010 set from the Bernstein's "Symphonies" set.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 29, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
When did they remaster it? For what its worth, I read some mixed-comments about at least a recent remastering.
I have the 1960's as part of a 2010 set from the Bernstein's "Symphonies" set.
PD
Info can be found here:
https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Bernstein-Remastered-Edition-The-Symphonies/release/10800782 (https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Bernstein-Remastered-Edition-The-Symphonies/release/10800782)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 07:20:17 AM
If you're looking for the Bernstein 60s set remastered, you probably won't find it and if you do, it'll be for a high price. I had looked for it some time ago, but ended up just going with a digital download from Qobuz, which I don't really like to do. I own this older Bernstein set:
(https://img.discogs.com/Y8SzaSywgaFMNvJEpOVorR1ulIU=/fit-in/600x507/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8510211-1463066126-5295.jpeg.jpg)
But the recent remastering makes the aural image much clearer and this alone makes it preferable to the older set.
Embarrassing typo for the only soloist's name on the back cover ::). Such sloppiness shouldn't pass a major label's production process.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/may01/Ellgar_Sorrel.jpg)
First listening ever to these two works.
Quote from: André on August 29, 2021, 11:32:10 AM
Embarrassing typo for the only soloist's name on the back cover ::). Such sloppiness shouldn't pass a major label's production process.
Agreed, but while on the subject of sloppiness...
Quote from: André on August 29, 2021, 11:36:21 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/may01/Ellgar_Sorrel.jpg)
First listening ever to these two works.
;) ;D
Quote from: André on August 29, 2021, 11:36:21 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/may01/Ellgar_Sorrel.jpg)
First listening ever to these two works.
Which two works?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 29, 2021, 06:49:51 AM
I was trying to locate a comic strip that I remember from 1970's or '80's which I vividly recall--alas, I couldn't find it online to share. It was a Hagar The Horrible cartoon of Hagar (a Viking) walking along with his skinny Viking cohort. The first two or three frames were of them trodding along through the countryside getting soaked in the rain. The next frame, they were walking along on a nice sunny day. Last frame: they were back to tromping along in the rain with Hagar saying to his friend "That was summertime in England".
;)
PD
The word "sky" is borrowed into English from the Vikings.
I kid you not, its original meaning is actually "cloud".
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 29, 2021, 07:08:07 AM
Duh... no really.... I had NO IDEA
You clearly give that impression.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 29, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
When did they remaster it? For what its worth, I read some mixed-comments about at least a recent remastering.
I have the 1960's as part of a 2010 set from the Bernstein's "Symphonies" set.
PD
The remastered edition came out in 2015. I also have the Symphonies box and wondered, like you, how much better the remastered Sibelius symphonies were. In the end, I paid more than I should have (though much less than what some scalpers were asking for) to get the 2015 box, since I love these performances. Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself, but I think the remastered versions are markedly better, with more detail and transparency. Definitely worth picking up if you find the box going for a reasonable price.
Quote from: relm1 on August 28, 2021, 04:26:36 PM
But which Davis? My go to set is Davis/BSO but I dislike Davis/LSO. It lacks everything that made the Boston set great.
Davis/BSO FTW!
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2021, 01:26:01 PM
Which two works?
Both. The quartet is a rather austere work, the quartet more expansive both in structure and emotionally. 'Brahmsian' is an adjective that came to my mind. The slow portion about halfway through the last movement is pure Elgar though.
(I know, John, I know... :-\)
Quote from: André on August 29, 2021, 11:36:21 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/may01/Ellgar_Sorrel.jpg)
First listening ever to these two works.
Quote from: André on August 29, 2021, 04:30:11 PM
Both. The quartet is a rather austere work, the quartet more expansive both in structure and emotionally. 'Brahmsian' is an adjective that came to my mind. The slow portion about halfway through the last movement is pure Elgar though.
(I know, John, I know... :-\)
David's confusion is understandable since the image for the Elgar SQ & Piano Quintet by Sorrel Quartet with Ian Brown isn't showing, and this is the Sibelius thread. ;)
Quote from: North Star on August 29, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
David's confusion is understandable since the image for the Elgar SQ & Piano Quintet by Sorrel Quartet with Ian Brown isn't showing, and this is the Sibelius thread. ;)
And the answer of "both" didn't help either!
Winter is perfectly audible from works like the symphonies 4, 6 and partly 7, the Violin Concerto, Tapiola! I feel a good deal of summer in symphonies 1, 2, 5, The Oceanides, En Saga, etc. Oh, and spring on Spring Song, Karelia Suite (for mentioning some). And what about fall? Symphony No. 3, perhaps, and part of the 4th? Luonnotar. In this regard I don't know enough to assess. By comparing, I detect the best stuff related to winter. I couldn't live without any of them!
I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing a lot of Sibelius' music with winter. He came from that landscape and his music evokes nature, so I don't see any of problems with it.
I wouldn't associate the 6th with winter, except maybe of the nuclear type; the 6th is a completely desolate work, whereas winter is full of life (especially in a place like Finland where much animal & plant life is adapted for winter survival). I also don't think of the 4th as particularly "wintery"—the only Sibelius symphony that strikes me that way is maybe the 3rd since it has a couple of passages that sound like swirling snowflakes, in the outer movements, but then the middle movement's goth folk dance vibes undercut that. The 4th and 6th seem like subjective, inward-looking emotional statements with little to do with the natural landscape. Sibelius may have disagreed with that assessment, of course.
Sibelius is said to have said that one of the movements of the 6th (presumably the 1st) should be played so as to 'smell like the first snow of winter'.
Quote from: amw on August 29, 2021, 05:59:24 PM
I wouldn't associate the 6th with winter, except maybe of the nuclear type; the 6th is a completely desolate work, whereas winter is full of life (especially in a place like Finland where much animal & plant life is adapted for winter survival). I also don't think of the 4th as particularly "wintery"—the only Sibelius symphony that strikes me that way is maybe the 3rd since it has a couple of passages that sound like swirling snowflakes, in the outer movements, but then the middle movement's goth folk dance vibes undercut that. The 4th and 6th seem like subjective, inward-looking emotional statements with little to do with the natural landscape. Sibelius may have disagreed with that assessment, of course.
You make the 6th sound incredibly enticing. Maybe you should make some classical videos instead of that charlatan Hurwitz! I'd definitely subscribe to your channel. 8) But, yes, I'm in agreement with you that not all of Sibelius is desolate, wintry landscapes. Some of it is far too personal for that kind of imagery.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 05:07:20 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing a lot of Sibelius' music with winter. He came from that landscape and his music evokes nature, so I don't see any of problems with it.
Again, a statement like "he came from that landscape" makes it sound like Helsinki is perpetually locked in snow, or that Sibelius mysteriously stopped composing for a large part of the year.
It's appropriate enough for works where Sibelius actually said something, but I just wish the winter association didn't get slapped on quite so many compositions.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2021, 11:10:49 AM
Info can be found here:
https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Bernstein-Remastered-Edition-The-Symphonies/release/10800782 (https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Bernstein-Remastered-Edition-The-Symphonies/release/10800782)
Thank you!
Quote from: Zarzuela on August 29, 2021, 02:36:29 PM
The remastered edition came out in 2015. I also have the Symphonies box and wondered, like you, how much better the remastered Sibelius symphonies were. In the end, I paid more than I should have (though much less than what some scalpers were asking for) to get the 2015 box, since I love these performances. Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself, but I think the remastered versions are markedly better, with more detail and transparency. Definitely worth picking up if you find the box going for a reasonable price.
Thank you for your comments Zarzuela. Will keep an eye out for it. :)
PD
Quote from: Madiel on August 29, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
The word "sky" is borrowed into English from the Vikings.
I kid you not, its original meaning is actually "cloud".
Interesting! Now what would have happened if the English had adopted a word meaning "sun" instead? :-\ ;)
PD
Quote from: Madiel on August 29, 2021, 09:53:38 PM
Again, a statement like "he came from that landscape" makes it sound like Helsinki is perpetually locked in snow, or that Sibelius mysteriously stopped composing for a large part of the year.
It's appropriate enough for works where Sibelius actually said something, but I just wish the winter association didn't get slapped on quite so many compositions.
Here's my beef with what you're writing: people can think what they want to when they hear Sibelius' music. That's their own prerogative. If they hear a stampede of elk going through a forest or the windblown icy landscape of Siberia in his music, this is their
own impressions and perspective. You may not agree with it, but saying you get tired of hearing the winter associations in Sibelius' music won't change what other people hear in his music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 07:19:42 AM
Here's my beef with what you're writing: people can think what they want to when they hear Sibelius' music. That's their own prerogative. If they hear a stampede of elk going through a forest or the windblown icy landscape of Siberia in his music, this is their own impressions and perspective. You may not agree with it, but saying you get tired of hearing the winter associations in Sibelius' music won't change what other people hear in his music.
I actually agree with both sides of this debate. My favourite "for example" is Grieg's Peer Gynt "Morning Mood" which folk like to imagine epitomises a Norwegian Fjord. Whereas in fact in the Ibsen play the scene is set in the Desert. So a case where we have "learnt" an association where none existed. Not that that devalues people who really do "see" a fjord or enjoy the music more imagining a fjord but it is easy to fall into a sort of sign-post/shortcut musical imagery - film music relies on the listener/viewer knowing such and such a phrase portrays menace/love/heroics.....
Quote from: vandermolen on August 29, 2021, 06:21:55 AM
Old American films set in London (Sherlock Holmes etc) always show it encased in fog.
(//)
My understanding is that the "London fog" of late 1800s England and Sherlock's time was a very real, but very different phenomenon - smog from all the pollution of Victorian-era industry.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 30, 2021, 08:48:58 AM
I actually agree with both sides of this debate. My favourite "for example" is Grieg's Peer Gynt "Morning Mood" which folk like to imagine epitomises a Norwegian Fjord. Whereas in fact in the Ibsen play the scene is set in the Desert. So a case where we have "learnt" an association where none existed. Not that that devalues people who really do "see" a fjord or enjoy the music more imagining a fjord but it is easy to fall into a sort of sign-post/shortcut musical imagery - film music relies on the listener/viewer knowing such and such a phrase portrays menace/love/heroics.....
But what I "see" in the music isn't up for debate. Music is an abstract form of expression. I hardly ever actually hear what the composer intended. Like in Stravinsky's
Le sacre, for example, doesn't conjure up ritualistic dances for me just like
Une barque sur l'océan from Ravel's
Miroirs doesn't exactly sound like a "boat on the ocean". Let people hear what they want to and the fact that they're listening in the first-place is all that matters.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 09:41:26 AM
But what I "see" in the music isn't up for debate. Music is an abstract form of expression. I hardly ever actually hear what the composer intended. Like in Stravinsky's Le sacre, for example, doesn't conjure up ritualistic dances for me just like Une barque sur l'océan from Ravel's Miroirs doesn't exactly sound like a "boat on the ocean". Let people hear what they want to and the fact that they're listening in the first-place is all that matters.
Roasted Swan just agreed with you...
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 30, 2021, 08:48:58 AM
Not that that devalues people who really do "see" a fjord or enjoy the music more imagining a fjord
My mom falls on your side - I think I've recounted the anecdote before of the time we saw
Tod und Verklärung and she said that knowing it was about death ruined it because it sounded like so many other things instead.
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2021, 09:05:22 AM
My understanding is that the "London fog" of late 1800s England and Sherlock's time was a very real, but very different phenomenon - smog from all the pollution of Victorian-era industry.
A good reminder, Brian, of the effects of the Industrial Revolution.
PD
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2021, 10:29:59 AM
Roasted Swan just agreed with you...
He said he agrees with both sides of 'the debate' --- whatever this debate is will be news to me. I simply reiterated how I felt. That's all.
Part of my beef is that I don't think most people "hear" winter in Sibelius so much as they're told by everyone else that they ought to hear winter in Sibelius, and hey presto they do. The power of suggestion is well established, from understanding a computerised voice far better if you're told what it's saying to seeing the face of Jesus in a tortilla.
Sibelius is not the only composer to be faced with this kind of constant stereotyping. It can be hard to find a Shostakovich album that doesn't tell you to find absolutely everything to be secretly political. But it's like all stereotyping: it takes an element that's both somewhat true and really easy to digest and understand, and slathers it upon everything.
So my problem is not with people independently thinking that Sibelius sounds wintry. My problem is that I think we would get entirely different results if someone just heard Sibelius on their own, without constantly being told biographically that Sibelius is from Finland and, Finland being the home of Santa Claus and all, that Finnish music ought to sound wintry because we have such an incredibly limited knowledge of Finnish climate and geography that we have one, single mental image for the place.
And it's strange because we don't seem to invoke the same climate for Russian composers, to take a really obvious example. Maybe it's because there are enough well-known Russian composers that it would become tiresome to suggest quite so often that the snow-bound Russian landscape is the source of inspiration (beyond the times the composers actually said so). But Finland has one well-known composer, and that composer gets to be Santa Claus.
Quote from: hvbias on August 28, 2021, 07:57:06 AM
From the first movement where he seems to take most of his time is in the beginning leading up to the tympanis bringing in that "spring is in bloom"
I am curious what images are conjured up for people in this
specific part of the 6th symphony.
To me it sounds like life is returning, flowers are in bloom, birds are singing. So not winter itself.
Quote from: Madiel on August 30, 2021, 02:17:11 PM
Part of my beef is that I don't think most people "hear" winter in Sibelius so much as they're told by everyone else that they ought to hear winter in Sibelius, and hey presto they do. The power of suggestion is well established, from understanding a computerised voice far better if you're told what it's saying to seeing the face of Jesus in a tortilla.
Sibelius is not the only composer to be faced with this kind of constant stereotyping. It can be hard to find a Shostakovich album that doesn't tell you to find absolutely everything to be secretly political. But it's like all stereotyping: it takes an element that's both somewhat true and really easy to digest and understand, and slathers it upon everything.
So my problem is not with people independently thinking that Sibelius sounds wintry. My problem is that I think we would get entirely different results if someone just heard Sibelius on their own, without constantly being told biographically that Sibelius is from Finland and, Finland being the home of Santa Claus and all, that Finnish music ought to sound wintry because we have such an incredibly limited knowledge of Finnish climate and geography that we have one, single mental image for the place.
And it's strange because we don't seem to invoke the same climate for Russian composers, to take a really obvious example. Maybe it's because there are enough well-known Russian composers that it would become tiresome to suggest quite so often that the snow-bound Russian landscape is the source of inspiration (beyond the times the composers actually said so). But Finland has one well-known composer, and that composer gets to be Santa Claus.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here, Madiel. If someone said they thought his
Violin Concerto sounded like it evokes a bat screeching in a cave somewhere along the Andes Mountains, would this have any effect on what
you hear in the music? As I said, at least people are listening to the music and that's all that matters. Isn't listening the most important thing? Our impressions are of a personal subjective nature and, honestly, should never be up for debate. You're not going to tell me
how to listen to music just like I'm not going to tell you that you're an idiot because you hear something in the music that I don't hear. But let's move on...
Man, I thought I was the only one to hear that screeching Andean bat!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2021, 03:42:13 PM
Man, I thought I was the only one to hear that screeching Andean bat!
:P
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 03:33:42 PM
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here, Madiel. If someone said they thought his Violin Concerto sounded like it evokes a bat screeching in a cave somewhere along the Andes Mountains, would this have any effect on what you hear in the music?
Depends on whether it was repeated in the liner notes of the next 30 recordings of the Violin Concerto by various writers who were too lazy or unoriginal to come up with their own notions.
Quote from: Madiel on August 30, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
Depends on whether it was repeated in the liner notes of the next 30 recordings of the Violin Concerto by various writers who were too lazy or unoriginal to come up with their own notions.
Okay, then a simple solution would be not to read the liner notes, listen to the piece(s) and formulate your own opinion of the music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 03:59:35 PM
Okay, then a simple solution would be not to read the liner notes, listen to the piece(s) and formulate your own opinion of the music.
Like reading a book, skipping the Foreword.
Quote from: Madiel on August 30, 2021, 02:17:11 PM
Part of my beef is that I don't think most people "hear" winter in Sibelius so much as they're told by everyone else that they ought to hear winter in Sibelius, and hey presto they do. The power of suggestion is well established, from understanding a computerised voice far better if you're told what it's saying to seeing the face of Jesus in a tortilla.
Sibelius is not the only composer to be faced with this kind of constant stereotyping. It can be hard to find a Shostakovich album that doesn't tell you to find absolutely everything to be secretly political. But it's like all stereotyping: it takes an element that's both somewhat true and really easy to digest and understand, and slathers it upon everything.
So my problem is not with people independently thinking that Sibelius sounds wintry. My problem is that I think we would get entirely different results if someone just heard Sibelius on their own, without constantly being told biographically that Sibelius is from Finland and, Finland being the home of Santa Claus and all, that Finnish music ought to sound wintry because we have such an incredibly limited knowledge of Finnish climate and geography that we have one, single mental image for the place.
And it's strange because we don't seem to invoke the same climate for Russian composers, to take a really obvious example. Maybe it's because there are enough well-known Russian composers that it would become tiresome to suggest quite so often that the snow-bound Russian landscape is the source of inspiration (beyond the times the composers actually said so). But Finland has one well-known composer, and that composer gets to be Santa Claus.
This is a common flaw among music critics - especially UK based ones - who rely heavily on national stereotypes in their reporting, sometimes with seriously harmful effects. It's not just that Finnish music is supposed to sound wintry and icy, either. Russian romantics are supposed to all be fiery and passionate and folksy; Italians are all supposed to be dramatic; French performers are all supposed to be sleek and smooth and soft-toned and witty; German performers are all supposed to take the music very seriously; most problematic, there was for a long time an assumption that Asian pianists and performers would all be technically perfect but emotionally unable to figure out the music.
I think we are getting past a lot of those dumb stereotypes, but it's still worth intentionally avoiding them in a lot of cases. Plus, if you avoid the cliches, you have to be a lot more useful with your descriptions, because you have to think about it!
I certainly" heard winter" in the opening of the Sixth the first time I heard it (and without being told that it what I "should hear." By which, all I mean is that I myself have no problem with that.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 03:59:35 PM
Okay, then a simple solution would be not to read the liner notes, listen to the piece(s) and formulate your own opinion of the music.
But it's too late. That's kind of my point. By the time anyone is as immersed in classical music as much as we all are, you've inevitably been bombarded with this stuff over and over unless you've been living some kind of hermit existence.
It's the same kind of floating cultural knowledge that leads to one person deciding a bit of Beethoven reminds him of Moonlight and then here we are 2 centuries later and the notion has stuck. I doubt that 'Screeching Bat' is going to catch on, but wintry associations are all over the place, starting with the covers of albums.
Brian don't forget all modern brits are neoromantic! Oh yes and the lazy critics that describe a composer as post [insert famous composer from same country] even if their styles are completely different!
So yeah I agree.
Quote from: Madiel on August 30, 2021, 04:34:52 PM
But it's too late. That's kind of my point. By the time anyone is as immersed in classical music as much as we all are, you've inevitably been bombarded with this stuff over and over unless you've been living some kind of hermit existence.
It's the same kind of floating cultural knowledge that leads to one person deciding a bit of Beethoven reminds him of Moonlight and then here we are 2 centuries later and the notion has stuck. I doubt that 'Screeching Bat' is going to catch on, but wintry associations are all over the place, starting with the covers of albums.
I try not to read too much into what other people have wrote whether it be a critic or someone who has contributed an article to the latest Gramophone magazine issue. I think all of us are knowledgeable enough (or, at least, I am) in looking past the huffs and puffs of these people to formulate our own opinions. Why do people always think of Rachmaninov as 'melancholic' or 'deeply nostalgic' for his homeland when what he's really telling us has nothing to do with any of this? Why does Schoenberg get picked on so much and his music gets equated to nothing more than a complete madman who wrote "ugly music"? If people would use their ears and minds instead of relying on what other people say, then they might have something worthwhile to contribute of their own and this can go for all sorts of things.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 30, 2021, 05:01:43 PM
I try not to read too much into what other people have wrote whether it be a critic or someone who has contributed an article to the latest Gramophone magazine issue. I think all of us are knowledgeable enough (or, at least, I am) in looking past the huffs and puffs of these people to formulate our own opinions. Why do people always think of Rachmaninov as 'melancholic' or 'deeply nostalgic' for his homeland when what he's really telling us has nothing to do with any of this? Why does Schoenberg get picked on so much and his music gets equated to nothing more than a complete madman who wrote "ugly music"? If people would use their ears and minds instead of relying on what other people say, then they might have something worthwhile to contribute of their own and this can go for all sorts of things.
Well on that, Sir, we can agree.
If you'll excuse me, I'm responding to the news of Primephonic's demise and several other stressful circumstances by listening to Pearl Jam.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2021, 04:26:55 PM
I certainly" heard winter" in the opening of the Sixth the first time I heard it (and without being told that it what I "should hear." By which, all I mean is that I myself have no problem with that.
I always think of a freshly fallen new snow when I hear the beginning of the Sixth. :)
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2021, 06:02:21 PM
I always think of a freshly fallen new snow when I hear the beginning of the Sixth. :)
At the beginning of the sixth I think of modal counterpoint. It seems clear to me that Sibelius often took inspiration from Nordic mythology but I don't find much of Sibelius' music makes me think of weather.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 30, 2021, 06:57:32 PM
At the beginning of the sixth I think of modal counterpoint.
And it's a lovely thought.
Clearly the title of this thread needs to be changed.
Some helpful words from Vagn Holmboe's 'Experiencing Music'...
'... the abstract concept of music does not have a meaning which can be expressed with words. On the other hand, the particular piece of music which I am listening to (or have a vivid memory of) can be meaningful for me, even though this cannot be explained very precisely at all... What images, fantasies and colour projections a particular person creates is an individual matter and may vary considerably from person to person...'
Nevertheless, for me, Sibelius can probably still keep his snowshoes... :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2021, 03:42:13 PM
Man, I thought I was the only one to hear that screeching Andean bat!
:laugh: ;D
Personally, I often think of endless summer days in Finland and wanting to be there outside listening to his music. :)
PD
p.s. And, yes, of the northern lights at times too! :D
Quote from: aukhawk on August 31, 2021, 12:39:04 AM
Clearly the title of this thread needs to be changed.
So long as everyone signs disclaimers that the thread title has no influence on them whatsoever and does not in any way reflect a pervasive cultural stereotype, we'll be fine.
Quote from: aukhawk on August 31, 2021, 12:39:04 AM
Clearly the title of this thread needs to be changed.
Quote from: Madiel on August 31, 2021, 03:34:56 AM
So long as everyone signs disclaimers that the thread title has no influence on them whatsoever and does not in any way reflect a pervasive cultural stereotype, we'll be fine.
Since you're a lawyer, would you be so kind as to *draw that up for us?
*We should ask first though: What is your hourly rate?
PD
I'm not in private practice. Last time I saw what my agency charges for my services (in the cases where we charge) I was slightly scared to be honest. But then I don't have much idea of what a typical hourly rate for a lawyer is. Maybe I'm cheap.
Quote from: Madiel on August 31, 2021, 04:08:50 AM
I'm not in private practice. Last time I saw what my agency charges for my services (in the cases where we charge) I was slightly scared to be honest. But then I don't have much idea of what a typical hourly rate for a lawyer is. Maybe I'm cheap.
;D
Quote from: aukhawk on August 31, 2021, 12:39:04 AM
Clearly the title of this thread needs to be changed.
(* chortle *)
Quote from: aukhawk on August 31, 2021, 12:39:04 AM
Clearly the title of this thread needs to be changed.
I don't think Sibelius would have objected to « Sibelius' Glass of Clear Water ».
But it's cumbersome and not very catchy...
Quote from: André on August 31, 2021, 05:27:19 AM
I don't think Sibelius would have objected to « Sibelius' Glass of Clear Water ».
But it's cumbersome and not very catchy...
Why not "Sibelius' 'Water Droplets'"? It apparently was the first composition that he wrote--age 9.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GExRYtAS1lw
PD
Quote from: André on August 31, 2021, 05:27:19 AM
I don't think Sibelius would have objected to « Sibelius' Glass of Clear Water ».
But it's cumbersome and not very catchy...
as long as there was some vodka in it............
Sibelius' quote is referred to as 'pure cold water' or 'pure spring water' in various sources. So it could be any of these adjectives. 'Cool Sibelius' sounds fine to me :D.
Abstract Sibelius
How about Sibelius' Saga? A little wordplay on En saga obviously. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 08:58:27 AM
How about Sibelius' Saga? A little wordplay on En saga obviously. :)
Excellent !
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 31, 2021, 08:58:27 AM
How about Sibelius' Saga? A little wordplay on En saga obviously. :)
Clever. Now you would just have to contact the OP who hasn't been active for two years to change it! $:)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 31, 2021, 09:37:29 AM
It would have been nice if coming of with a supposedly witty, alliterative title for composer threads had not become the custom here.
It's something I can easily live with.
The one word, two word, three word, etc. On the other hand..........
Quote from: DavidW on August 31, 2021, 09:27:23 AM
Clever. Now you would just have to contact the OP who hasn't been active for two years to change it! $:)
I think a moderator can change a thread's title, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe we should take a vote?
Quote from: André on August 31, 2021, 09:17:56 AM
Excellent !
Thanks! 8)
Man, I hope Dancing Divertimentian is OK. I met him three or four years ago for about ten minutes - he was living nearby and selling me his copy of Muza Rubackyte's Liszt Années. It sounded like he had a fairly stressful job in the court system but he was a very nice guy. Good taste in music too.
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2021, 10:30:40 AM
Man, I hope Dancing Divertimentian is OK. I met him three or four years ago for about ten minutes - he was living nearby and selling me his copy of Muza Rubackyte's Liszt Années. It sounded like he had a fairly stressful job in the court system but he was a very nice guy. Good taste in music too.
If you know him or have his number, perhaps you could reach out to him and see if he's okay?
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2021, 10:30:40 AM
Man, I hope Dancing Divertimentian is OK. I met him three or four years ago for about ten minutes - he was living nearby and selling me his copy of Muza Rubackyte's Liszt Années. It sounded like he had a fairly stressful job in the court system but he was a very nice guy. Good taste in music too.
Those are phenomenal performances for a complete Annees, my favorite by a pretty wide margin.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2021, 04:26:55 PM
I certainly" heard winter" in the opening of the Sixth the first time I heard it (and without being told that it what I "should hear." By which, all I mean is that I myself have no problem with that.
Not sure if it was the first time I heard it, but my associating the first movement with sleigh rides and wintry landscapes certainly didn't come from someone else's suggestion, nor did it have anything to do with some stereotypical idea that Finland is locked in perpetual winter (I knew better than that!). I was actually pleasantly surprised when I read of Sibelius's phrase "shadows lengthen" for the piece, as that kind of imagery has always come to my mind when listening to it.
I should be clear (if I wasn't already) that I have no problem with winter imagery in places where Sibelius himself made relevant allusions.
I just have a problem with slathering the exact same imagery over so many things. For one thing it suggests that Sibelius himself had a severely limited imagination.
Slathering and music don't mix, to be sure.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 25, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Excellent. Will be curious to read your impressions of this Karajan 4th on DG.
I finally got to this, it's a great performance. The Berglund/Bournemouth remains my favorite, incredibly dark and brooding.
Quote from: hvbias on September 08, 2021, 05:21:29 AM
I finally got to this, it's a great performance. The Berglund/Bournemouth remains my favorite, incredibly dark and brooding.
The Karajan isn't exactly sunshine and daisies either. ;) Good to read you enjoyed the performance, though. I like the Berglund/Bournemouth as well. I definitely prefer Berglund's first thoughts on Sibelius compared to any of the later recordings he made.
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/0/9/6/4600317116690/tsp20130903094939/Integrale-des-symphonies.jpg)
Nos 3, 6 and 7.
Rozhdestvensky's 'crime-against-humanity-Sibelius' never ceases to thrill and fascinate. The 6th here has got to be the brassiest, most rythmically edge-of-the-seat version I know. No romantically glowing northern lights à la Karajan, this. It's like watching a tightrope walker reach the other end of the chasm. As for the 3rd, it's easily the iciest and most exciting one I know. I love it.
Quote from: André on September 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/0/9/6/4600317116690/tsp20130903094939/Integrale-des-symphonies.jpg)
Nos 3, 6 and 7.
Rozhdestvensky's 'crime-against-humanity-Sibelius' never ceases to thrill and fascinate. The 6th here has got to be the brassiest, most rythmically edge-of-the-seat version I know. No romantically glowing northern lights à la Karajan, this. It's like watching a tightrope walker reach the other end of the chasm. As for the 3rd, it's easily the iciest and most exciting one I know. I love it.
Also, the 4th is one of the darkest.
Quote from: André on September 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/0/9/6/4600317116690/tsp20130903094939/Integrale-des-symphonies.jpg)
Nos 3, 6 and 7.
Rozhdestvensky's 'crime-against-humanity-Sibelius' never ceases to thrill and fascinate. The 6th here has got to be the brassiest, most rythmically edge-of-the-seat version I know. No romantically glowing northern lights à la Karajan, this. It's like watching a tightrope walker reach the other end of the chasm. As for the 3rd, it's easily the iciest and most exciting one I know. I love it.
Oh, I have that set - must listen to it again - I like his VW box as well.
Quote from: André on September 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/0/9/6/4600317116690/tsp20130903094939/Integrale-des-symphonies.jpg)
Nos 3, 6 and 7.
Rozhdestvensky's 'crime-against-humanity-Sibelius' never ceases to thrill and fascinate. The 6th here has got to be the brassiest, most rythmically edge-of-the-seat version I know. No romantically glowing northern lights à la Karajan, this. It's like watching a tightrope walker reach the other end of the chasm. As for the 3rd, it's easily the iciest and most exciting one I know. I love it.
Hmm, why's it a crime against humanity?
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 25, 2021, 10:30:36 AM
Hmm, why's it a crime against humanity?
Dixit David Hurwitz. Check about 1/3 of the way through this thread for a discussion on the matter ;).
So, yet another dumb thing that Hurwitz said ....
Quote from: André on September 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
(https://static.fnac-static.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/0/9/6/4600317116690/tsp20130903094939/Integrale-des-symphonies.jpg)
Nos 3, 6 and 7.
Rozhdestvensky's 'crime-against-humanity-Sibelius' never ceases to thrill and fascinate. The 6th here has got to be the brassiest, most rythmically edge-of-the-seat version I know. No romantically glowing northern lights à la Karajan, this. It's like watching a tightrope walker reach the other end of the chasm. As for the 3rd, it's easily the iciest and most exciting one I know. I love it.
You've certainly piqued my interest, Andre. I must dig this set out from storage and give it a listen. It's been a long time time since I've heard it, but I remember my impressions overall were quite favorable. Much more favorable than Hurwitz's who I think was unfairly harsh in his criticism about this set. There's more than one way to skin a cat and the plethora of Sibelius interpretations that are out there are proof of this fact.
I'm really sad I missed that box when it was in print. It sounds totally fascinating.
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2021, 06:12:22 AM
I'm really sad I missed that box when it was in print. It sounds totally fascinating.
Yikes! :o Some jackal has it for $334 on Amazon MP:
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-1-7-Jean/dp/B003GT37LG/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Sibelius+Rozhdestvensky&qid=1632666827&s=music&sr=1-1 (https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphonies-1-7-Jean/dp/B003GT37LG/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Sibelius+Rozhdestvensky&qid=1632666827&s=music&sr=1-1)
It's certainly not cheap on Discogs either:
https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Moscow-Radio-Symphony-Orchestra-The-Symphonies/release/8801618 (https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Gennady-Rozhdestvensky-Moscow-Radio-Symphony-Orchestra-The-Symphonies/release/8801618)
I'm glad I pounced on this set when it came out many years ago, although I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been reissued again.
What I do own is a full-size print of the cover painting, framed in the house here. It's been one of my favorite paintings since I saw it in real life at London's National Gallery. And, as all the record labels know, it pairs perfectly with Finnish music.
Yep, I like Gallen-Kallela's work, too.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 26, 2021, 07:37:20 AM
Yep, I like Gallen-Kallela's work, too.
Me too - I have a framed print of Lake Keitele in my 'Man Cave' at the bottom of the garden.
I'm currently thoroughly enjoying this CD. I've had it in my collection for years without realising how good it is:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2021, 08:31:16 AM
Me too - I have a framed print of Lake Keitele in my 'Man Cave' at the bottom of the garden.
I'm currently thoroughly enjoying this CD. I've had it in my collection for years without realising how good it is:
(//)
It is quite good. I'm a fan of Sakari's Sibelius, which I've heard described as "Vänskä-lite".
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 26, 2021, 08:32:49 AM
It is quite good. I'm a fan of Sakari's Sibelius, which I've heard described as "Vänskä-lite".
I'm just coming to the end of the 7th Symphony. There's a kind of openness and unmannered integrity about the performances which I find very engaging.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2021, 08:31:16 AM
Me too - I have a framed print of Lake Keitele in my 'Man Cave' at the bottom of the garden.
I'm currently thoroughly enjoying this CD. I've had it in my collection for years without realising how good it is:
(//)
Very nice, Jeffrey. I should give that Sakari cycle another listen. I bought it years ago and have only listened to it once.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 26, 2021, 07:10:44 PM
Very nice, Jeffrey. I should give that Sakari cycle another listen. I bought it years ago and have only listened to it once.
I think that CD with Symphony No.6, 7 and the Tempest Suite No.2 is especially good John - try Symphony No.6 in particular.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2021, 11:08:19 PM
I think that CD with Symphony No.6, 7 and the Tempest Suite No.2 is especially good John - try Symphony No.6 in particular.
Cool, thanks, Jeffrey. This will be the first disc I listen to of the Sakari cycle.
Re: Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 27, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
NP:
Sibelius
Symphony No. 4 in A minor, Op. 63
Moscow RSO
Rozhdestvensky
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GQJWcrYG40Q/Uci4z8mhG9I/AAAAAAAAEaY/VLH1E_rHyy4/s1600/folder.jpg)
Man...this is fantastic and Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius is ice cold a la Vänskä in Lahti. Lovely music-making and I totally disagree with Hurwitz's whole "CD From Hell" criticism of this set.
Another instance where Hurwitz is simply full of hot air. "CD From Hell"? I think not!
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 26, 2021, 08:32:49 AM
It is quite good. I'm a fan of Sakari's Sibelius, which I've heard described as "Vänskä-lite".
What on earth does "Vänskä-lite" mean?! Those kind of "clever" descriptions really rile me up. In one fell-swoop it denigrates Sakari as being in some unspecified way 'less' than Vanska (I like them both by the way but if pushed would probably opt for Sakari) but also is the kind of 'smart ' comment that parades the knowledge insight and sophistication of the person who originated it...... NOT!!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2021, 07:55:45 AM
What on earth does "Vänskä-lite" mean?! Those kind of "clever" descriptions really rile me up. In one fell-swoop it denigrates Sakari as being in some unspecified way 'less' than Vanska (I like them both by the way but if pushed would probably opt for Sakari) but also is the kind of 'smart ' comment that parades the knowledge insight and sophistication of the person who originated it...... NOT!!
+1
PD
It wasn't I who originated that comment, but it was a certain professional critic who frequents these boards, so you may want to tone down the aggression there :laugh: As for me, I like Sakari and don't really care for Vänskä, so I couldn't really tell you what was meant by that. I just thought it was funny. (In any case, I believe it was intended as a compliment.)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2021, 07:55:45 AM
What on earth does "Vänskä-lite" mean?! Those kind of "clever" descriptions really rile me up. In one fell-swoop it denigrates Sakari as being in some unspecified way 'less' than Vanska (I like them both by the way but if pushed would probably opt for Sakari) but also is the kind of 'smart ' comment that parades the knowledge insight and sophistication of the person who originated it...... NOT!!
It seems clear enough to me that rather than saying that Sakari is lesser than Vänskä, the writer is saying that the two have a similar approach, but Sakari's is less extreme.
I took it to mean Sakari sounds similar to Vanska but less ponderous. Not as in Sakari is mickey mouse. I haven't heard Sakari, but I say without the context of a full review who knows how it was meant to be taken.
So I'm right in saying its a pointless meaningless comment since 3 of us here have interpreted it quite differently and none of us know if any of us are right (in the sense of understanding what the original writer of the phrase meant!). The issue I take with that kind of phraseology is that it tends to stick without anyone really knowing what it means - but its rarely good.
Actually I'd interpret it another way, if you say x is y lite i think it means x has y's characteristics but isn't as good, as in Trump is Mussolini-lite.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2021, 02:33:58 PM
So I'm right in saying its a pointless meaningless comment since 3 of us here have interpreted it quite differently and none of us know if any of us are right (in the sense of understanding what the original writer of the phrase meant!). The issue I take with that kind of phraseology is that it tends to stick without anyone really knowing what it means - but its rarely good.
Damned by faint praise.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 30, 2021, 02:33:58 PM
So I'm right in saying its a pointless meaningless comment since 3 of us here have interpreted it quite differently and none of us know if any of us are right (in the sense of understanding what the original writer of the phrase meant!). The issue I take with that kind of phraseology is that it tends to stick without anyone really knowing what it means - but its rarely good.
I completely agree. I also don't like the "this composer sounds like x meets y!" I say that because it is usually based on genre and geographical location and not how they actually sound.
Quote from: DavidW on October 01, 2021, 04:21:26 AM
I completely agree. I also don't like the "this composer sounds like x meets y!" I say that because it is usually based on genre and geographical location and not how they actually sound.
I am totally guilty of doing comparisons as such. Sometimes it is good to have a reference or compass point, and certainly is never meant as a denigration, or intended to be one.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 25, 2021, 01:59:12 AM
Oh, I have that set - must listen to it again - I like his VW box as well.
Rozdhestvensky...VW as in Vaughan Williams? That's a completely refreshing thing I never knew about! I really want to hear Rozdhestvensky doing VW now, I had no idea. Meanwhile, in context of this thread, I still have a thing for Ashkenazys Sibelius cycle with the Philharmonia Orchestra. It is accused of being 'too warm', but for me it's at a nice temperature and great sounding.
(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/6B7854CB-6F2C-440E-AD6F-6CDCB79CBE90.jpeg)
Quote from: John Copeland on October 01, 2021, 05:59:05 AM
Rozdhestvensky...VW as in Vaughan Williams? That's a completely refreshing thing I never knew about! I really want to hear Rozdhestvensky doing VW now, I had no idea. Meanwhile, in context of this thread, I still have a thing for Ashkenazys Sibelius cycle with the Philharmonia Orchestra. It is accused of being 'too warm', but for me it's at a nice temperature and great sounding.
(https://revolutions33.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/6B7854CB-6F2C-440E-AD6F-6CDCB79CBE90.jpeg)
Yes John - bizarre as it seems there is a Vaughan Williams symphony set on Melodiya! It is well worth hearing, even though an organ solo goes rather 'Dr Phibes' in Sinfonia Antartica! I like Ashkenazy's Sibelius recordings and also his Walton symphonies:
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 01, 2021, 01:44:07 PM
Yes John - bizarre as it seems there is a Vaughan Williams symphony set on Melodiya! It is well worth hearing, even though an organ solo goes rather 'Dr Phibes' in Sinfonia Antartica! I like Ashkenazy's Sibelius recordings and also his Walton symphonies:
Apologies for this RVW comment on the Sibelius page - the Rozhdestventsky RVW cycle features possibly the worst mangling of a language ever in the Sea Symphony! Check out this disc though which is very fine.....
(https://img.discogs.com/gCpVyxUa3i89K9fGOG6Vn1yePtY=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-16300076-1606847363-6033.jpeg.jpg)
Getting back on thread - a brief anecdote about the Ashkenazy cycle. These were some of Ashkenazy's very first recordings as a conductor. To that end he came into the Guildhall School to basically "practice" with a Symphony Orchestra before going in front of the Philharmonia. The funny thing is he never got much better technically as a conductor - great musician, lovely man just plain scary trying to follow on the stick!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 04, 2021, 06:56:36 AM
Apologies for this RVW comment on the Sibelius page - the Rozhdestventsky RVW cycle features possibly the worst mangling of a language ever in the Sea Symphony! Check out this disc though which is very fine.....
(https://img.discogs.com/gCpVyxUa3i89K9fGOG6Vn1yePtY=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-16300076-1606847363-6033.jpeg.jpg)
Getting back on thread - a brief anecdote about the Ashkenazy cycle. These were some of Ashkenazy's very first recordings as a conductor. To that end he came into the Guildhall School to basically "practice" with a Symphony Orchestra before going in front of the Philharmonia. The funny thing is he never got much better technically as a conductor - great musician, lovely man just plain scary trying to follow on the stick!
Interesting Ashkenazy anecdote - that BBC Radio Classics VW CD is indeed excellent.
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.
Who was a greater composer? How original?
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:15:03 PM
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.
Who was a greater composer? How original?
I love them both probably equally so I would say they are equal. I've never heard a work of either of them that I didn't love and some of their works have moved me deeply. They both seem to have a deep nostalgia and melancholy and just beautiful lyricism and depth of feeling. Plus weren't they fans of each other? Did RVW dedicate one of his symphonies to JS and vice versa?
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:15:03 PM
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.
Who was a greater composer? How original?
Too many questions. ;D I'm not sure who was
greater, because I think this kind of thinking pits the two composers against each other as if it was some kind of tennis match. I love both composers, but I felt that my affection for Sibelius was much harder earned as I found him quite difficult to understand earlier on whereas RVW appealed to me instantly without any sense of struggle on my part. Sibelius earns a special place in my heart as he's one of the only composers who has brought a tear to my eye (the other two being Mahler and Shostakovich). I think for a composer to have this kind of breakthrough to the listener means a special bond was formed. RVW is an incredible composer, but I don't listen to him much these days and my Sibelius listening has increased rapidly over the years. I do need to get back to RVW as I believe there is much of his music that warrants attention.
Quote from: relm1 on October 05, 2021, 05:41:11 PM
I love them both probably equally so I would say they are equal. I've never heard a work of either of them that I didn't love and some of their works have moved me deeply. They both seem to have a deep nostalgia and melancholy and just beautiful lyricism and depth of feeling. Plus weren't they fans of each other? Did RVW dedicate one of his symphonies to JS and vice versa?
Yes, the English dedicated his 5th to the Finn, but Sibelius did not the other way around with any other of his symphonies or works (not sure), but it doesn't matter. Sibelius did dedicate his 3rd to Granville Bantock, curiously. And Arnold Bax also dedicated his 5th to the great Finn bard. What an interesting link of composers. They definitely share a strong atmospheric, bucolic, lyric quality to the music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 05, 2021, 05:44:05 PM
Too many questions. ;D I'm not sure who was greater, because I think this kind of thinking pits the two composers against each other as if it was some kind of tennis match. I love both composers, but I felt that my affection for Sibelius was much harder earned as I found him quite difficult to understand earlier on whereas RVW appealed to me instantly without any sense of struggle on my part. Sibelius earns a special place in my heart as he's one of the only composers who has brought a tear to my eye (the other two being Mahler and Shostakovich). I think for a composer to have this kind of breakthrough to the listener means a special bond was formed. RVW is an incredible composer, but I don't listen to him much these days and my Sibelius listening has increased rapidly over the years. I do need to get back to RVW as I believe there is much of his music that warrants attention.
There is a resemblance with what I think of in my own experience. I can't pigeonhole what exactly is about why I didn't "digest" Sibelius at my very first exposition to classical music, but I love both almost for equal quantity and affection.
Pettersson didn't? Or Debussy? Ravel? Enescu?
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 06:57:36 PM
There is a resemblance with what I think of in my own experience. I can't pigeonhole what exactly is about why I didn't "digest" Sibelius at my very first exposition to classical music, but I love both almost for equal quantity and affection.
Pettersson didn't? Or Debussy? Ravel? Enescu?
Nope. The only composers that have brought tears to my eyes are the afore mentioned ones.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 06:52:39 PM
Yes, the English dedicated his 5th to the Finn, but Sibelius did not the other way around with any other of his symphonies or works (not sure), but it doesn't matter. Sibelius did dedicate his 3rd to Granville Bantock, curiously. And Arnold Bax also dedicated his 5th to the great Finn bard. What an interesting link of composers. They definitely share a strong atmospheric, bucolic, lyric quality to the music.
Most interesting that the one English composer Sibelius thought worth a dedication is Bantock.
Talking of Bax - which here is not the right place, is Bax's dedications. I will list on the appropriate thread if anyone interested.
Quote from: Irons on October 06, 2021, 02:23:54 AM
Most interesting that the one English composer Sibelius thought worth a dedication is Bantock.
Talking of Bax - which here is not the right place, is Bax's dedications. I will list on the appropriate thread if anyone interested.
Yes absolutely re dedications but of course Sibelius was acknowledging Bantock's work as a conductor promoting Sibelius in the UK rather than any musical affinity in their compositional styles. The same with the Bax dedications - in effect thanking the dedicatees for their support over the years although I think the Ireland dedication is more a gesture of friendship perhaps.....
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 05, 2021, 05:15:03 PM
How sibelian you consider Vaughan Williams was and viceversa? I mean, how Vaughan-Williamsist was Sibelius and how much of an influence was a composer of each other.
Who was a greater composer? How original?
I think that VW was much more influenced by Sibelius than the other way round. VW dedicated his 5th Symphony to Sibelius - who sent a polite reply thanking VW for the dedication. I suspect that VW excised the best section (IMO) of 'A London Symphony' (at the end) under the influence of Sibelius who was at the height of his fame in England in the 1930s. Personally I think that final revision was a mistake as whatever the symphony gained in concision it lost in poetic atmosphere. I think that Sibelius was the greater composer but VW remains my favourite. I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.
"Greatness" in music makes me twitch! Personally I find it almost completely irrelevant to my own listening experience. The music I enjoy listening to most is that which touches and moves me the most - whether the person who wrote it or the music itself influenced the history of music (which I guess is what greatness in this context means...?) is of no consequence to me in the moment of listening. Heretically I listen to almost no Mozart but 100% he is a great composer.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 06, 2021, 04:10:15 AM
I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.
True but RVW influenced generations of composers touching everything from neoromantic orchestral music to film scores.
Quote from: DavidW on October 06, 2021, 07:28:54 AM
True but RVW influenced generations of composers touching everything from neoromantic orchestral music to film scores.
Yes, I very much agree. I think that VW was a great composer.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 06, 2021, 04:10:15 AM
I think that VW was much more influenced by Sibelius than the other way round. VW dedicated his 5th Symphony to Sibelius - who sent a polite reply thanking VW for the dedication. I suspect that VW excised the best section (IMO) of 'A London Symphony' (at the end) under the influence of Sibelius who was at the height of his fame in England in the 1930s. Personally I think that final revision was a mistake as whatever the symphony gained in concision it lost in poetic atmosphere. I think that Sibelius was the greater composer but VW remains my favourite. I don't think that VW composed anything as great or original (maybe his 6th Symphony) as Tapiola or the 4th Symphony of Sibelius.
Interesting point of view, Jeffrey. I think both composers were original and great in their own ways, and I couldn't live without any of them.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 07, 2021, 03:42:44 PM
Interesting point of view, Jeffrey. I think both composers were original and great in their own ways, and I couldn't live without any of them.
Same here Cesar. VW's 5th Symphony was clearly influenced by Sibelius (its dedicatee) and I think that Moeran's Symphony (one of my favourite symphonies) shows the influence even more. I can't detect any influence of VW in Sibelius's own music. This is not to take anything away from VW's own greatness and, of course, unlike Sibelius, he was able to produce wonderful scores, like the 9th Symphony, into his 80s whereas Sibelius stopped composing decades earlier.
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!
(https://lite-images-i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273a1dc4a49e7d2625411d802a9)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 07, 2021, 09:48:58 PM
Same here Cesar. VW's 5th Symphony was clearly influenced by Sibelius (its dedicatee) and I think that Moeran's Symphony (one of my favourite symphonies) shows the influence even more. I can't detect any influence of VW in Sibelius's own music. This is not to take anything away from VW's own greatness and, of course, unlike Sibelius, he was able to produce wonderful scores, like the 9th Symphony, into his 80s whereas Sibelius stopped composing decades earlier.
Very true what you say, Jeffrey, and I quite agree about what the bolded text claims. Sibelius is more independent melodically, rhythmically and harmonically. One composer was very active until very late of his life whilst the another decided stop composing significantly in a relatively "lucid" moment of his lifetime.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 12, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!
(https://lite-images-i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273a1dc4a49e7d2625411d802a9)
Pretty sure it is.... but never heard it and don't remember reading any opinions about it either. There is such a glut of Kullervo's now, I had to draw the line somewhere and I think that was it. If it ever turns up in JPC's bargain bin for €2.99 I'll probably buy it!
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 12, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!
(https://lite-images-i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273a1dc4a49e7d2625411d802a9)
Yes, I have that CD ( ::))
I seem to recall reading some fairly indifferent reviews but I enjoyed the performance Cesar.
Review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/jan07/Sibelius_Kullervo_7771962.htm
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 12, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
Does anyone know this recording of Kullervo? If it is the Rasilainen that conducted Atterberg, I want to hear it!
(https://lite-images-i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273a1dc4a49e7d2625411d802a9)
Like Roasted Swan, I never got around to this one. Considering how many great ones there are, it seemed to be the bottom of my list. I don't even believe I own it (now that I'm thinking about it).
On Friday, Dec. 31 at 8:30pm (CST), the Minnesota Orchestra will mark New Year's Eve with a rather unusual all-Sibelius concert, which will be livestreamed. I don't recall ever hearing Autumn Evening or Hertig Magnus, and Luonnotar doesn't show up on programs that often, either (at least, in the United States). And I wish they were ending with No. 7, but popular demand probably dictates ending with No. 2. Never mind, I'll take it. 8)
Minnesota Orchestra
Osmo Vänskä, conductor
Helena Juntunen, soprano
Symphony No. 7
Autumn Evening
Hertig Magnus
Luonnotar
(Intermission)
Symphony No. 2
https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/tickets/calendar/2122/new-years-celebration/
--Bruce
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2021, 11:16:46 PM
Pretty sure it is.... but never heard it and don't remember reading any opinions about it either. There is such a glut of Kullervo's now, I had to draw the line somewhere and I think that was it. If it ever turns up in JPC's bargain bin for €2.99 I'll probably buy it!
Quote from: vandermolen on November 12, 2021, 11:52:00 PM
Yes, I have that CD ( ::))
I seem to recall reading some fairly indifferent reviews but I enjoyed the performance Cesar.
Review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/jan07/Sibelius_Kullervo_7771962.htm
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2021, 05:42:43 AM
Like Roasted Swan, I never got around to this one. Considering how many great ones there are, it seemed to be the bottom of my list. I don't even believe I own it (now that I'm thinking about it).
Thanks for your responses, gents. I'll find out whether it's worth listening.
I was listening to the Oceanides earlier. Probably one of the Sibelius tone poems I listen to least but it really made an impression on me today. The opus number of 73 places it between the 4th & 5th Symphony and certainly it has a lot of the barren bleakness of the former. I was struck by what a powerful and individual work it is. I wonder why it has not made such an impact before......... (it was the Jarvi/Gothenburg performance I listened to)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 19, 2021, 02:20:39 PM
I was listening to the Oceanides earlier. Probably one of the Sibelius tone poems I listen to least but it really made an impression on me today. The opus number of 73 places it between the 4th & 5th Symphony and certainly it has a lot of the barren bleakness of the former. I was struck by what a powerful and individual work it is. I wonder why it has not made such an impact before......... (it was the Jarvi/Gothenburg performance I listened to)
I had the same experience but only with
Night Ride & Sunrise. Sometimes I think we're just not attuned to the music and it takes awhile for it to "ferment" for lack of a better word in our minds. Now,
Night Ride & Sunrise is one of my favorite Sibelius works. But, I do share your praise of
The Oceanides --- it's a marvelously atmospheric work. You should definitely give a listen the Segerstam/Helsinki PO performance on Ondine, especially now that this work has finally clicked for you. This would be my favorite performance of the work, although there are several other extremely fine ones like Berglund/Bournemouth (EMI) and Gibson/Scottish NO (Chandos).
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 19, 2021, 07:53:59 PM
I had the same experience but only with Night Ride & Sunrise. Sometimes I think we're just not attuned to the music and it takes awhile for it to "ferment" for lack of a better word in our minds. Now, Night Ride & Sunrise is one of my favorite Sibelius works. But, I do share your praise of The Oceanides --- it's a marvelously atmospheric work. You should definitely give a listen the Segerstam/Helsinki PO performance on Ondine, especially now that this work has finally clicked for you. This would be my favorite performance of the work, although there are several other extremely fine ones like Berglund/Bournemouth (EMI) and Gibson/Scottish NO (Chandos).
Nice to hear some praise for the underrated Gibson recordings John, I like the Oceanides very much. Didn't Sibelius ask Beecham to record the work?
The Oceanides didn't appeal to me at first, and I'm liking it better with each listen. A tone poem that doesn't resonate with me very much is Pohjola's Daughter (it has nothing to do with the member here ;D). Without the epic motif in the trombones and some other gestures, the work doesn't stick in my head.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 20, 2021, 03:21:00 PM
The Oceanides didn't appeal to me at first, and I'm liking it better with each listen. A tone poem that doesn't resonate with me very much is Pohjola's Daughter (it has nothing to do with the member here ;D). Without the epic motif in the trombones and some other gestures, the work doesn't stick in my head.
Now that you've been brave enough to admit your negative feelings about Pohjola's Daughter, I'll follow your lead and confess it's done nothing for me. It's one of the very few Sibelius works I dislike. Favorite tone poems include En saga, The Wood Nymph, The Bard, Luonnotar, Tapiola, and the old warhorse Finlandia.
Sarge
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on November 20, 2021, 03:21:00 PM
The Oceanides didn't appeal to me at first, and I'm liking it better with each listen. A tone poem that doesn't resonate with me very much is Pohjola's Daughter (it has nothing to do with the member here ;D). Without the epic motif in the trombones and some other gestures, the work doesn't stick in my head.
I've always liked Pohjola's Daughter but part of it is just the Sibelien sound world. From the first bar, this sounds like no other composer but him.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 20, 2021, 01:24:30 PM
Nice to hear some praise for the underrated Gibson recordings John, I like the Oceanides very much. Didn't Sibelius ask Beecham to record the work?
Yeah, I always thought Gibson was a masterful Sibelian. I'm not sure about Sibelius and Beecham, but that does sound probable.
Interesting comments. My favourites are Luonnotar (Dorati recording), Tapiola (Berglund, Philharmonia, Kajanus, Rosbaud, Segerstam Chandos/Ondine, Gibson), Oceanides, Beecham, The Bard, Berglund, En Saga (Sarasate) I like the others as well but those ones are my favourites.
I must admit I quite enjoy seeking out unexpected conductors performers of any repertoire. To a degree as listeners we all get manipulated into hearing certain performers as 'specialists' in certain repertoire. Often this is because those artists ARE indeed specialists but often its just because its convenient for the recording companies to label and market them as such - Chandos are past masters of this.
So all the neames recently mentioned apropos Sibelius are very good and well-worth a hearing (I'd certainly include Gibson on any list) but what about Boult and Jochum as alternatives for starters?! Not that they recorded vast swathes of Sibelius in their long careers but what they did is actually rather impressive to my ear. Both did an Oceanides - Jochum on DG with the Bavarian RSO I remember and Boult on an old World Records LP with the LPO which has turned up in the bargain download "Little Big Sibelius Box"
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 21, 2021, 12:35:22 AM
I must admit I quite enjoy seeking out unexpected conductors performers of any repertoire. To a degree as listeners we all get manipulated into hearing certain performers as 'specialists' in certain repertoire. Often this is because those artists ARE indeed specialists but often its just because its convenient for the recording companies to label and market them as such - Chandos are past masters of this.
So all the neames recently mentioned apropos Sibelius are very good and well-worth a hearing (I'd certainly include Gibson on any list) but what about Boult and Jochum as alternatives for starters?! Not that they recorded vast swathes of Sibelius in their long careers but what they did is actually rather impressive to my ear. Both did an Oceanides - Jochum on DG with the Bavarian RSO I remember and Boult on an old World Records LP with the LPO which has turned up in the bargain download "Little Big Sibelius Box"
Yes, I like Boult's Sibelius as well and, unlike Barbirolli, he recorded Tapiola.
(//)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 21, 2021, 12:35:22 AM
I must admit I quite enjoy seeking out unexpected conductors performers of any repertoire. To a degree as listeners we all get manipulated into hearing certain performers as 'specialists' in certain repertoire. Often this is because those artists ARE indeed specialists but often its just because its convenient for the recording companies to label and market them as such - Chandos are past masters of this.
So all the neames recently mentioned apropos Sibelius are very good and well-worth a hearing (I'd certainly include Gibson on any list) but what about Boult and Jochum as alternatives for starters?! Not that they recorded vast swathes of Sibelius in their long careers but what they did is actually rather impressive to my ear. Both did an Oceanides - Jochum on DG with the Bavarian RSO I remember and Boult on an old World Records LP with the LPO which has turned up in the bargain download "Little Big Sibelius Box"
A conductor that comes to mind here that wasn't a noted Sibelian is Dorati. You MUST check out this recording (coupled with an especially fine Nielsen 5th with Kubelik at the helm):
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51JqEwJiKbL.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2021, 05:33:15 AM
A conductor that comes to mind here that wasn't a noted Sibelian is Dorati. You MUST check out this recording (coupled with an especially fine Nielsen 5th with Kubelik at the helm):
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51JqEwJiKbL.jpg)
That's a terrific CD John. That is my favourite recording of Luonnotar and the Nielsen 5th Symphony is the icing on the cake
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2021, 05:35:32 AM
That's a terrific CD John. That is my favourite recording of Luonnotar and the Nielsen 5th Symphony is the icing on the cake
A fantastic recording for sure, Jeffrey. 8) I wish Dorati conducted more Sibelius. I think he did record the 2nd symphony on Mercury Living Presence, but I haven't heard that performance --- I should, though, as I own the three Mercury box sets and haven't heard a note from any of them. :-[
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 21, 2021, 12:35:22 AM
I must admit I quite enjoy seeking out unexpected conductors performers of any repertoire. To a degree as listeners we all get manipulated into hearing certain performers as 'specialists' in certain repertoire. Often this is because those artists ARE indeed specialists but often its just because its convenient for the recording companies to label and market them as such - Chandos are past masters of this.
So all the neames recently mentioned apropos Sibelius are very good and well-worth a hearing (I'd certainly include Gibson on any list) but what about Boult and Jochum as alternatives for starters?! Not that they recorded vast swathes of Sibelius in their long careers but what they did is actually rather impressive to my ear. Both did an Oceanides - Jochum on DG with the Bavarian RSO I remember and Boult on an old World Records LP with the LPO which has turned up in the bargain download "Little Big Sibelius Box"
I think the first incarnation of Boult's recording was on Nixa under license from Vanguard. You are right we are all guilty of putting conductors in a box and when they stray it comes as a bit of a shock - how very much dare they! :o An example on my shelves is also Sibelius and in fact Schmidt - Isserstedt turns out to be rather good.
(https://i.imgur.com/WFv3j5C.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CC2yfiW.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2021, 05:38:27 AM
A fantastic recording for sure, Jeffrey. 8) I wish Dorati conducted more Sibelius. I think he did record the 2nd symphony on Mercury Living Presence, but I haven't heard that performance --- I should, though, as I own the three Mercury box sets and haven't heard a note from any of them. :-[
I think you may be thinking of Paul Paray who recorded the 2nd Symphony for Mercury.
Quote from: Irons on November 21, 2021, 05:46:35 AM
I think you may be thinking of Paul Paray who recorded the 2nd Symphony for Mercury.
Ah yes, thanks for the correction. The recording in question:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91+EV1KIGkL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2021, 05:38:27 AM
I wish Dorati conducted more Sibelius.
It might not be Mercury, but I am pretty sure I still have this one with Dorati leading Sibelius 2, somewhere back in the archives.
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/977/MI0000977119.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Quote from: VonStupp on November 21, 2021, 06:19:14 AM
It might not be Mercury, but I am pretty sure I still have this one with Dorati leading Sibelius 2, somewhere back in the archives.
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/977/MI0000977119.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Nice! Good to know I technically wasn't too far off from being correct. ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2021, 05:50:12 AM
Ah yes, thanks for the correction. The recording in question:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91+EV1KIGkL._SL1200_.jpg)
A pleasure. The Paray 2nd Symphony is very quick, rushed even.
Quote from: relm1 on November 20, 2021, 05:06:47 PM
I've always liked Pohjola's Daughter but part of it is just the Sibelien sound world. From the first bar, this sounds like no other composer but him.
Ditto... probably my favourite of all of Sibelius's tone poems (Tapiola notwithstanding).
Quote from: Irons on November 21, 2021, 05:42:07 AM
I think the first incarnation of Boult's recording was on Nixa under license from Vanguard. You are right we are all guilty of putting conductors in a box and when they stray it comes as a bit of a shock - how very much dare they! :o An example on my shelves is also Sibelius and in fact Schmidt - Isserstedt turns out to be rather good.
(https://i.imgur.com/WFv3j5C.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/CC2yfiW.jpg)
Ah yes - when the LPO masquaraded as the Philaharmonic Promenade SO (or some such!) for contractual reasons.......
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2021, 05:35:32 AM
That's a terrific CD John. That is my favourite recording of Luonnotar and the Nielsen 5th Symphony is the icing on the cake
An excellent CD: the three Sibelius items were originally coupled with
En Saga on LP and it is still one of my favourite Sibelius albums.
Quote from: Biffo on November 21, 2021, 08:10:49 AM
An excellent CD: the three Sibelius items were originally coupled with En Saga on LP and it is still one of my favourite Sibelius albums.
all included here......
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmsJC_yiNxZP58ml2WdZL9_u5iEMvq-pbatRpdAeGJfksRzGoZluTGCXHpo7mRZt9SlaU&usqp=CAU)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 21, 2021, 08:54:28 AM
all included here......
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmsJC_yiNxZP58ml2WdZL9_u5iEMvq-pbatRpdAeGJfksRzGoZluTGCXHpo7mRZt9SlaU&usqp=CAU)
Thanks for that. When we discussed
En Saga fairly recently I tried to find the Dorati performance but somehow overlooked that album.
Any of the Sibelians here care to recommend me a great recording of the Lemminkäinen Suite? I have not spent much time with this work. I have the Sakari/Iceland on Naxos but am open to hearing others.
Also would love recommendations for discs of Sibelius's songs.
Perhaps not an often-found recommendation, but I never get tired of Jaervi's DG Gothenburg 'Lemminkainen Suite'.
Songs are of course either choral, or solo songs with piano, or solo with orchestra.
Hynninen/Segerstam/Tampere P O in orchestral songs on Ondine is obligatory, IMHO ;) .
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 09, 2021, 03:18:30 AM
Any of the Sibelians here care to recommend me a great recording of the Lemminkäinen Suite? I have not spent much time with this work. I have the Sakari/Iceland on Naxos but am open to hearing others.
Also would love recommendations for discs of Sibelius's songs.
For this listener, this recording of the
Lemminkäinen Suite reigns supreme:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Jon6PosfL._SY580_.jpg)
As for the songs, this Decca set should fit the bill rather nicely:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81NaVhcY5yL._SL1500_.jpg)
Of course, if you're looking for the orchestral songs, then I heartily recommend this recording:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71srmc819cL._SL1050_.jpg)
Then there's the
Sibelius Edition sets on BIS and I won't even launch into those --- most of them are mandatory purchases for the Sibelian.
Best news of the day: the Minnesota Orchestra's New Year's Eve gala, an all-Sibelius evening led by Osmo Vänskä (in his final season with the group), will be livestreamed on Dec. 31, at 9:30pm (EST). Looks like it's free to stream (though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a small contribution, which I intend to do).
Program is Symphonies 7 and 2, plus Herzog Magnus (never heard it!), Luonnotar (with soprano Helena Juntunen), and Autumn Evening.
https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/tickets/calendar/2122/new-years-celebration/
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 24, 2021, 01:12:36 PM
Best news of the day: the Minnesota Orchestra's New Year's Eve gala, an all-Sibelius evening led by Osmo Vänskä (in his final season with the group), will be livestreamed on Dec. 31, at 9:30pm (EST). Looks like it's free to stream (though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a small contribution, which I intend to do).
Program is Symphonies 7 and 2, plus Herzog Magnus (never heard it!), Luonnotar (with soprano Helena Juntunen), and Autumn Evening.
https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/tickets/calendar/2122/new-years-celebration/
--Bruce
Very interesting, Brewski. Thanks for the info. I've saved the link for that day.
Quote from: Brewski on December 24, 2021, 01:12:36 PM
Best news of the day: the Minnesota Orchestra's New Year's Eve gala, an all-Sibelius evening led by Osmo Vänskä (in his final season with the group), will be livestreamed on Dec. 31, at 9:30pm (EST). Looks like it's free to stream (though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a small contribution, which I intend to do).
Program is Symphonies 7 and 2, plus Herzog Magnus (never heard it!), Luonnotar (with soprano Helena Juntunen), and Autumn Evening.
https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/tickets/calendar/2122/new-years-celebration/
--Bruce
Sweet! Looks like a lovely program. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Bruce. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 24, 2021, 04:20:22 PM
Sweet! Looks like a lovely program. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Bruce. 8)
Most welcome. The pandemic surge has torpedoed a lot of New Year's Eve plans (at least, mine) so a potentially fantastic livestream is an excellent Plan B. Plus, I admire Vänskä and the orchestra for looking beyond typical holiday fare, with a nontraditional program end to the year.
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on December 24, 2021, 04:55:12 PM
Most welcome. The pandemic surge has torpedoed a lot of New Year's Eve plans (at least, mine) so a potentially fantastic livestream is an excellent Plan B. Plus, I admire Vänskä and the orchestra for looking beyond typical holiday fare, with a nontraditional program end to the year.
--Bruce
Yes, indeed. There's nothing like a Sibelian New Year's!
Hertig Magnus is one of Sibelius' songs, op.57/6, which he orchestrated.
Same with Autumn Evening. Both rather nice accompaniments to Luonnotar I would imagine.
Thanks for letting us know about that Bruce! I've added it to my calendar. :)
PD
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2021, 06:02:21 PM
I always think of a freshly fallen new snow when I hear the beginning of the Sixth. :)
I'm a little late to this, but I aways think of a metallic blue sky.
It just so happens I once heard the Sixth as I was driving along southern California highway, but even before I never had the "snow' image.
More than 10 years ago we had a long conversation here about the 7th symphony. I explained how difficult I found it, and Brian (on whom be blessings poured) spent a lot of time and effort providing me with a better way of listening to it. Brian, if you're around, my heartfelt thanks. For anyone interested, you can find Brian's 'outline sketch' of the symphony here:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974)
This morning I had 20 minutes to fill, and decided the 7th would nicely tuck into the slot. I chose the Rozhdestvensky version from his box set, and I had in the back of my mind that old discussion we had. What struck me forcibly, as I listened, was that I could not understand my earlier self. I couldn't see what the problem used to be. For most of the 20 minutes my spine was tingling and the hair on the back of my neck prickling, and yet now, years on and quite a lot of listenings later, I wasn't listening carefully for the structure that Brian had so painstakingly provided me with. I was just following the music intuitively, organically, like a bit of wood flowing along with a somewhat turbulent stream.
I found myself contemplating Alfred North Whitehead's 'process' philosophy, and his notion of 'prehension', whereby the whole universe consists of these countless prehensions, assimilating these processes into its creative advance. Here was I, involved in my own little 20 minutes of the universe's prehensive advance, and Sibelius's 7th seemed to be running alongside me as a kind of symbolic parallel, simultaneously being prehended, while providing a symbol of that very process. Written down like this I can see that it makes no sense, and maybe indicates that I wasn't really listening to the music. But it made a lot of sense at the time, and I really was listening, I promise.
Whether this is nonsense or not, I just wanted to let Brian know how enormously successful his efforts had been - so much so that I no longer think of the 7th as a puzzle to be solved, but rather as an enriching process to be lived through repeatedly, or an adventure to be enjoyed. I don't think I could have reached this point on my own.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 29, 2021, 12:58:24 PM
More than 10 years ago we had a long conversation here about the 7th symphony. I explained how difficult I found it, and Brian (on whom be blessings poured) spent a lot of time and effort providing me with a better way of listening to it. Brian, if you're around, my heartfelt thanks. For anyone interested, you can find Brian's 'outline sketch' of the symphony here:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974)
This morning I had 20 minutes to fill, and decided the 7th would nicely tuck into the slot. I chose the Rozhdestvensky version from his box set, and I had in the back of my mind that old discussion we had. What struck me forcibly, as I listened, was that I could not understand my earlier self. I couldn't see what the problem used to be. For most of the 20 minutes my spine was tingling and the hair on the back of my neck prickling, and yet now, years on and quite a lot of listenings later, I wasn't listening carefully for the structure that Brian had so painstakingly provided me with. I was just following the music intuitively, organically, like a bit of wood flowing along with a somewhat turbulent stream.
I found myself contemplating Alfred North Whitehead's 'process' philosophy, and his notion of 'prehension', whereby the whole universe consists of these countless prehensions, assimilating these processes into its creative advance. Here was I, involved in my own little 20 minutes of the universe's prehensive advance, and Sibelius's 7th seemed to be running alongside me as a kind of symbolic parallel, simultaneously being prehended, while providing a symbol of that very process. Written down like this I can see that it makes no sense, and maybe indicates that I wasn't really listening to the music. But it made a lot of sense at the time, and I really was listening, I promise.
Whether this is nonsense or not, I just wanted to let Brian know how enormously successful his efforts had been - so much so that I no longer think of the 7th as a puzzle to be solved, but rather as an enriching process to be lived through repeatedly, or an adventure to be enjoyed. I don't think I could have reached this point on my own.
Quite interesting. I found the 7th one of his easier symphonies to decipher and figure out. The ones that gave me some problems were the 4th and 6th. But, nowadays, I love all of his symphonies. They are all so different from the other, but one thing that is unmistakable is the composer's voice. The last string of works
Symphony No. 7,
The Tempest and
Tapiola are magnificent creations and all masterpieces. These works would be difficult acts to follow even though Sibelius' health problems (drinking problem and a horrible tremor that affected his writing) basically forced him to stop composing, although he didn't completely stop, but there wasn't much after the three afore mentioned works. Anyway, I'm glad you connect with the 7th now. Do give the Barbriolli on Warner (EMI) performance a listen! Also, Berglund/Bournemouth and Vänskä/Lahti SO.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on December 29, 2021, 12:58:24 PM
More than 10 years ago we had a long conversation here about the 7th symphony. I explained how difficult I found it, and Brian (on whom be blessings poured) spent a lot of time and effort providing me with a better way of listening to it. Brian, if you're around, my heartfelt thanks. For anyone interested, you can find Brian's 'outline sketch' of the symphony here:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.msg451974.html#msg451974)
This morning I had 20 minutes to fill, and decided the 7th would nicely tuck into the slot. I chose the Rozhdestvensky version from his box set, and I had in the back of my mind that old discussion we had. What struck me forcibly, as I listened, was that I could not understand my earlier self. I couldn't see what the problem used to be. For most of the 20 minutes my spine was tingling and the hair on the back of my neck prickling, and yet now, years on and quite a lot of listenings later, I wasn't listening carefully for the structure that Brian had so painstakingly provided me with. I was just following the music intuitively, organically, like a bit of wood flowing along with a somewhat turbulent stream.
I found myself contemplating Alfred North Whitehead's 'process' philosophy, and his notion of 'prehension', whereby the whole universe consists of these countless prehensions, assimilating these processes into its creative advance. Here was I, involved in my own little 20 minutes of the universe's prehensive advance, and Sibelius's 7th seemed to be running alongside me as a kind of symbolic parallel, simultaneously being prehended, while providing a symbol of that very process. Written down like this I can see that it makes no sense, and maybe indicates that I wasn't really listening to the music. But it made a lot of sense at the time, and I really was listening, I promise.
Whether this is nonsense or not, I just wanted to let Brian know how enormously successful his efforts had been - so much so that I no longer think of the 7th as a puzzle to be solved, but rather as an enriching process to be lived through repeatedly, or an adventure to be enjoyed. I don't think I could have reached this point on my own.
This is not nonsense at all.
I actually love the process of unlocking music like this. I think most of the more rewarding music changes for us over time.
Quote from: Brewski on December 24, 2021, 04:55:12 PM
Most welcome. The pandemic surge has torpedoed a lot of New Year's Eve plans (at least, mine) so a potentially fantastic livestream is an excellent Plan B. Plus, I admire Vänskä and the orchestra for looking beyond typical holiday fare, with a nontraditional program end to the year.
--Bruce
Just to let you folks know, the concert is still being streamed on the Minnesota Orchestra's website (or whatever that link was that Bruce had provided). I confess, that I fell asleep before the concert and checked my computer this morning and it was still on there. I also told a friend about it and double-checked with him and he is also able to access it. I suspect that it might be accessible for at least 24 hours but no idea.
And Happy New Year (again)!
PD
Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.
I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.
Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!
Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande (https://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge) with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.
The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:
"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.
I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.
Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!
Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande (https://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge) with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.
The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:
"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."
I agree great from the listener's perspective. But a couple of words of caution before we celebrate Mr von Bahr "ground-breaking initiative". To me it smacks more than a tad of breaking the power of unions to negotiate for all their members across the board - the shade of mrs Thatcher perhaps. Also, worth considering that a royalties only payment guarantees these artists at the very pinnacle of their profession not a single cent. The hope will be that the recordings are hugely successful and profits are generated for all but the truth is that will rarely ever happen. Of course I also understand that payment of substantial recording fees upfront would be all but impossible for many companies where sponsorship was not available. So perhaps this is/was a pragmatic real-world solution but it does rely on not paying musicians what they are worth! Also worth remembering - and I know this from a colleague who has negotiated first hand with Mr von Bahr - "mean" is probably the most generous description of his negotiating style......
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AMAnother, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande (https://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge) with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.
The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:
"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."
Not much of a deal to only offer one of the recordings Järvi's Gothenburg cycle on BIS. His entire cycle should be available for that price. I've spoken with Robert von Bahr maybe twice and both exchanges were quite nice and pleasant, but I've already given him enough money by buying the entire
Sibelius Edition (and so many other recordings through the years).
Just finished watching the Sibelius concert from Minnesota. Thoroughly enjoyed it. One thing that surprised me though, besides the two symphonies and the humoresques, there wasn't Luonnator and that other work that Bruce had mentioned. I also looked at the program and today's repeat concert and those works weren't listed there either. They do have "bonus" ones with samples for Spotify listed though.
PD
EDIT: I suspect that the singer was ill or couldn't attend for some reason or another and they substituted with the Humoresques instead.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 01, 2022, 08:18:03 AM
Just finished watching the Sibelius concert from Minnesota. Thoroughly enjoyed it. One thing that surprised me though, besides the two symphonies and the humoresques, there wasn't Luonnator and that other work that Bruce had mentioned. I also looked at the program and today's repeat concert and those works weren't listed there either. They do have "bonus" ones with samples for Spotify listed though.
PD
EDIT: I suspect that the singer was ill or couldn't attend for some reason or another and they substituted with the Humoresques instead.
Yes, the programming change was definitely a last-minute thing. My guess: the singer may have been flying in from Finland, and at the last minute looked at the pandemic numbers here and went, "Sorry, I can't do the concert." (She may have been anxious about getting
back, which is also a worry these days.) So many things have been canceled in the last few weeks.
In any case, the substitution was delightful. I didn't know the Humoresques at all, nor the terrific violinist.
--Bruce
Re the recording deal using royalties: it's perhaps notable that BIS recordings seem better at staying in print (and available to download or stream) than those of almost any other label. So he at least keeps the revenue stream open.
Last night's terrific Sibelius concert will be available for a week at the link below. When I mentioned the great trombones in the climax of the 7th Symphony, one friend said, "Those passages (and only those) are referred to in our household as 'the cosmic brass.'"
Certainly sounded that way last night!
https://mnorch.vhx.tv/videos/a-new-years-celebration
--Bruce
Yes, very recommended. Man, it can't be missing in my list. A work of a supreme artistic creation. The noble spirit of Finland.
Masterpiece.
Quote from: Brewski on January 01, 2022, 05:35:45 PM
Last night's terrific Sibelius concert will be available for a week at the link below. When I mentioned the great trombones in the climax of the 7th Symphony, one friend said, "Those passages (and only those) are referred to in our household as 'the cosmic brass.'"
Certainly sounded that way last night!
https://mnorch.vhx.tv/videos/a-new-years-celebration
--Bruce
Good to hear that it will be available for a while longer! Tempted to go back and watch the Seventh in particular again. :) And sorry to hear the story about the premiere of the second and what the tuba player did. :(
PD
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
Well, this update brought me great joy, on top of the pleasure of seeing Elgarian on these pages again. Like Madiel, I agree that it makes sense. And there is something to the idea that some works of art, we just aren't ready for the first or second time, but then we reach a stage of life or frame of mind where we are ready. And maybe we have no idea what changed. I can't help thinking of some of those novels they made us read in school, even though schoolchildren are completely the wrong audience for them. A 16-year-old will never understand what Thomas Hardy was on about. But come back a few decades later, and the door has opened up.
I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.
Very excited that we can all celebrate by hitting the Minnesota Orchestra's website and catching up on last night's concert!
Another, more commercial form of New Year's Sibelebration might be the eClassical "Daily Deal," 50% off download of Symphony No. 6 + Pelleas et Melisande (https://www.eclassical.com/pages/daily-deal.html?cache=purge) with Neeme Jarvi and the Gothenburg Symphony. January 1st only. An hour of music for US $4.12.
The following comment from BIS founder Robert von Bahr is interesting:
"Another instalment of Neeme Järvi's ground-breaking Sibelius cycle with the Gothenburg SO. Ground-breaking, because this was the very first time that an orchestra agreed to - against the Union rules - record on royalties alone. It took more than a year of very hard negotiations for me to land this fish, and it turned out to be a pivotal point in the history of recordings. With this precedence, more and more orchestras built in recordings in their deals with the musicians' unions, and I think it is safe to say that, without my initiative, the favourable situation with lots of orchestral recordings for you, the listeners, would not have existed. Arguably this may be the biggest thing that BIS has accomplished to date."
A few days ago, Brian, I wrote a lengthy reply to your post, clicked go - and ....
nothing. I'd lost my internet connection, and my post. Naturally, it was the finest post I'd ever written, etc etc.
I now have internet restored and will try to remember what it was that I said a few days ago, but I'll have to do it tomorrow. Please bear with me.
Cheers.
Right then. I wonder if I can remember any of the rich wisdom and deep wit that disappeared into cyberspace a few days ago when I tried to respond to this:
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2022, 06:53:55 AM
I think there was some great commentator somewhere who said that the Seventh was structured like a work exploring and learning itself from the inside.
I read this quote with great interest - even excitement - Brian. It's an almost perfect description of what I was experiencing when I listened to it the other day, and I can now see exactly why Alfred North Whitehead's process philosophy would pop into my head unbidden. Let me offer a slightly more extended quote from Whitehead. He defines his term 'prehension', as follows:
Prehension is 'a complex process of appropriating into a unity of existence the many data presented as relevant by the physical processes of nature. ... I hold that these unities of existence, these occasions of experience, are the really real things which in their collective unity compose the evolving universe, ever plunging into the creative advance.' [
Alfred North Whitehead. An Anthology, ed. by F. S. C. Northrop and M. W. Gross (New York: Macmillan, 1953), p. 907.]
What strikes me is that the 7th symphony can be regarded as presenting us with a symbol of this idea. As I listened to the symphony I was experiencing very much the kind of creative unfolding that Whitehead describes, like 'a work exploring and learning itself from the inside', as Brian's quote puts it. My experience of the 7th symphony seemed to be evolving in the way that an entire Whiteheadian universe evolves, and it gives us a whole new way of contemplating Whitehead's idea: not merely by thinking intellectually about it, but by 'going for the ride' as it were, along with the music.
I don't think I've ever encountered such a direct parallel between music and philosophy before, and it strikes me as pretty exciting.
You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters? Ormandy and Szell. I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to. What do you think?
Quote from: relm1 on February 22, 2022, 04:56:35 PM
You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters? Ormandy and Szell. I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to. What do you think?
Ormandy and Szell? Really? Szell would be out of contention for me on the basis that he really didn't record much Sibelius. As with Ormandy, I've never been a fan of the conductor. I often find that he doesn't really bring any noteworthy interpretative insights to the music he conducts and this most certainly applies to his Sibelius. If I were only allowed to choose two Sibelius conductors, they would be Berglund and Karajan.
Quote from: relm1 on February 22, 2022, 04:56:35 PM
You know who might be my two favorite Sibelius interpreters? Ormandy and Szell. I love their Sibelius and keep finding them to be the version I compare all others to. What do you think?
Would love to hear some of Ormandy's Sibelius. Any particularly good recordings?
Alas, can't recommend an Ormandy recording, but I can enthusiastically endorse this 1970 reading from Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, recorded live in Tokyo. What makes it moving: He knew he was dying, and the orchestra did, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvgwzWTCzOc&t=1s
--Bruce
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 22, 2022, 05:42:34 PM
Would love to hear some of Ormandy's Sibelius. Any particularly good recordings?
There's an easy "one stop shop" for Ormandy/Sibelius;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Yw1vFV0yL._AC_SY355_.jpg)
this box has duplicate recordings where one is earlier/CBS and then also the later/RCA. I also do rate Ormandy's Lemminkainen Legends that appeared on EMI
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81UyUVmFPkL._AC_SX342_.jpg)
It is true as MI says Szell did not record much Sibelius - more the pity. But one of the greatest recordings of the 2nd Symphony was his.
Quote from: Brewski on February 22, 2022, 05:50:27 PM
Alas, can't recommend an Ormandy recording, but I can enthusiastically endorse this 1970 reading from Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, recorded live in Tokyo. What makes it moving: He knew he was dying, and the orchestra did, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvgwzWTCzOc&t=1s
--Bruce
Yes, exactly that one! It just seems to be the one by which I compare all other #2 to. As for Ormandy, the recording I was listening to and enjoying might be his complete Sibelius set. Note it isn't a complete set either.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Yw1vFV0yL._SL1500_.jpg)
EDIT: Sorry Roasted Swan, I responded before seeing you already pointed out the set and yes, I agree he has a great Lemminkainen too! I prefer the newer recordings on the Ormandy box set that are in stereo but you can tell, even with the mono recordings, he's a very fine interpreter of this music.
Ormandy's best Sibelius recordings are his mono Cleveland accounts of symphonies 4 and 5. The 4th in particular is devastating in its power and blackness. Apart from the box set you mention - and that I recommend without reservation - any Sibelius fan should try to find these two performances.
I add my vote to the performance of no 2 by Szell-Cleveland in Tokyo. Hair raising stuff indeed.
Also enthusiastic fan of Szell in Tokyo and many of the recordings in that Ormandy box. Maybe soon I'll go through the Ormandy again to make more detailed comments, but that big classic Philly string sound has an epic sweep that fits with more "romantic" interpretations.
Quote from: Brian on February 23, 2022, 06:46:50 PM
Also enthusiastic fan of Szell in Tokyo and many of the recordings in that Ormandy box. Maybe soon I'll go through the Ormandy again to make more detailed comments, but that big classic Philly string sound has an epic sweep that fits with more "romantic" interpretations.
Loved that sound growing up! ;D
PD
Something that fascinates me about Sibelius is how he manages to not be bombastic, too pompous or loud with lots of woodwinds, percussion and brass in virtually all of his works.
By listening to the 6th Symphony I admit it has moved me deeply. This great gentleman does touch your soul, at least for me it does.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 26, 2022, 06:19:10 PM
Something that fascinates me about Sibelius is how he manages to not be bombastic, too pompous or loud with lots of woodwinds, percussion and brass in virtually all of his works.
By listening to the 6th Symphony I admit it has moved me deeply. This great gentleman does touch your soul, at least for me it does.
It's arguably his finest symphony. VW thought v highly of it in particular.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 26, 2022, 11:00:06 PM
It's arguably his finest symphony. VW thought v highly of it in particular.
No wonder why, Jeffrey. A unique creation. VW's 5th is the one I feel with more connection between both symphonies. I couldn't live without any of their symphonies.
Few things are better at keeping me up well past my bedtime than puzzling through Sibelius' opus numbers...
This time it was the works for choir. He chopped and changed which songs counted a heck of a lot. At one stage op.18 didn't have 6 songs, it had 10. Opus 65 had 4 songs rather than 2. And so on and so forth.
And this is all just so I can then consider options for albums that cover the worthwhile songs, possibly without all the arrangements and preliminary versions and exercises that make the BIS box 6 discs rather than 2 or 3.
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
Never heard the Wood Nymph.
My candidates for the best non-symphony would be Tapiola, Okeanides and Luonnotar. Despite the soprano the latter seems usually to be counted as "symphonic poem" and I think it is one of the most haunting and original of them (obviously to a considerable extent because of the soprano...). Okeanides shows a more colorful, impressionist side of Sibelius that is mostly absent from the more austere (later) symphonies.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 24, 2022, 06:47:10 AM
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
For me, it would be difficult to narrow it down to only one, because these works inhabit such individual musical worlds, but
The Oceanides and
Night Ride & Sunrise get my votes. I feel that the latter is incredibly underrated in particular. One of the reasons is because it's a difficult work to pull off. It has an almost minimalist approach, especially in what I think is a scene with a man (or woman) on horseback riding through a forest at night. The "sunrise" part is beautiful and is naturally the section which would impress most people I would think, but in order to get there, a conductor has to make that journey on horseback feel exciting. One of the performances that truly nails this for me is Segerstam with the Helsinki Philharmonic on Ondine. Another one is Alexander Gibson with Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. These two performances are favorites and I think they're able to capture the atmosphere of this oft-misunderstood work.
The Oceanides is much more convincing in terms of hooking a listener as it feels rather Impressionistic, but with Sibelius' orchestration, everything is crystal clear. It's a unique sound-world and a piece that drew me in immediately --- like a strong undercurrent I was pulled into it. Again, Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine are incredible in this work, but I also like Vänskä on BIS. Anyway, I just couldn't pick one work, because Sibelius wrote so many masterpieces.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 24, 2022, 06:47:10 AM
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
Pohjola's daughter and Luonnotar. In fact in my opinion Sibelius' symphonic poems are even better than his symphonies.
Quote from: Ganondorf on May 24, 2022, 09:17:54 AM
Pohjola's daughter and Luonnotar. In fact, in my opinion, Sibelius' symphonic poems are even better than his symphonies.
I'll respectfully disagree in that I believe the aim of both the symphony and tone poem were quite different, especially for Sibelius. There are some instances where the lines were a bit blurred like, for example,
Kullervo and
Lemminkäinen Suite, but he developed an individual sound-world for both the symphony and tone poem. I personally wouldn't say one is "better" than the other only because they are both extraordinary in their own way, especially the way Sibelius wrote for them.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 24, 2022, 06:47:10 AM
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
The Wood Nymph is terrific! I wonder why it's not more widely recorded. Of his early works it's clearly my favorite, and I prefer it to
En Saga.
Along with
The Wood Nymph,
Lemminkäinen Suite and
Tapiola represent Sibelius in his most atmospheric. Unquestionable masterpieces.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 24, 2022, 06:47:10 AM
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
Thank you, l got a few looks at the restaurant while l was laughing but it was totally worth it. 👌
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 24, 2022, 07:03:27 AM
For me, it would be difficult to narrow it down to only one, because these works inhabit such individual musical worlds, but The Oceanides and Night Ride & Sunrise get my votes. I feel that the latter is incredibly underrated in particular. One of the reasons is because it's a difficult work to pull off. It has an almost minimalist approach, especially in what I think is a scene with a man (or woman) on horseback riding through a forest at night. The "sunrise" part is beautiful and is naturally the section which would impress most people I would think, but in order to get there, a conductor has to make that journey on horseback feel exciting. One of the performances that truly nails this for me is Segerstam with the Helsinki Philharmonic on Ondine. Another one is Alexander Gibson with Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. These two performances are favorites and I think they're able to capture the atmosphere of this oft-misunderstood work. The Oceanides is much more convincing in terms of hooking a listener as it feels rather Impressionistic, but with Sibelius' orchestration, everything is crystal clear. It's a unique sound-world and a piece that drew me in immediately --- like a strong undercurrent I was pulled into it. Again, Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine are incredible in this work, but I also like Vänskä on BIS. Anyway, I just couldn't pick one work, because Sibelius wrote so many masterpieces.
Yes. Mostly this. Segerstam, Vänskä, plus
The Wood Nymph.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 24, 2022, 06:47:10 AM
Question for the Snowshoed forum:
With the exception of the seven numbered symphonies...
What is the best orchestral work by Sibelius? And why is it The Wood Nymph?
The Wood Nymph's central 'ride through the forest' section is utterly awesome, I know that much. But I really do have to go back and get to know some of the other works better.
Also, do you know the version of the Wood Nymph with narration? It actually helped me understand the instrumental version better.
Quote from: Madiel on May 24, 2022, 09:11:27 PM
The Wood Nymph's central 'ride through the forest' section is utterly awesome, I know that much. But I really do have to go back and get to know some of the other works better.
Also, do you know the version of the Wood Nymph with narration? It actually helped me understand the instrumental version better.
This one has the narration...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81OZxtuChqL._SY355_.jpg)
Quote from: LKB on May 24, 2022, 12:36:48 PM
Thank you, l got a few looks at the restaurant while l was laughing but it was totally worth it. 👌
;)
My performance of choice for Wood Nymph is John Storgårds and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Mainly for the fourth and final section. The tempo for this section is very broad, much broader than the Vanska, which only enhances the grief the music is interpreting. I also like how the final chord fades away which is different from Vanska's, more than likely a result of using a newer critical edition.
(https://i.discogs.com/08KixcHpUn4mhNcvx4uE4YYbZ49AfWuEST4ggb5glwg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:500/w:497/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwMDUw/MzY1LTE0OTA3NDM0/NDctMjc3Ni5qcGVn.jpeg)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 25, 2022, 04:04:19 AM
My performance of choice for Wood Nymph is John Storgårds and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Mainly for the fourth and final section. The tempo for this section is very broad, much broader than the Vanska, which only enhances the grief the music is interpreting. I also like how the final chord fades away which is different from Vanska's, more than likely a result of using a newer critical edition.
(https://i.discogs.com/08KixcHpUn4mhNcvx4uE4YYbZ49AfWuEST4ggb5glwg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:500/w:497/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwMDUw/MzY1LTE0OTA3NDM0/NDctMjc3Ni5qcGVn.jpeg)
Listening now. Storgårds is always excellent, and here is no different.
Edit: Having listened back to back, I think I actually prefer this performance to the Vanska version in the Sibelius Edition. Brighter brass sound from the onset and as you say, his tempo is about 3 minutes longer.
I very much like Storgårds in Sibelius, even though his symphony cycle had some mixed reviews. I appreciate I'm sometimes alone in my likes, however.
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 25, 2022, 04:16:03 AM
Listening now. Storgårds is always excellent, and here is no different.
Edit: Having listened back to back, I think I actually prefer this performance to the Vanska version in the Sibelius Edition. Brighter brass sound from the onset and as you say, his tempo is about 3 minutes longer.
I very much like Storgårds in Sibelius, even though his symphony cycle had some mixed reviews. I appreciate I'm sometimes alone in my likes, however.
It's alright as I prefer the Vänskä as well. Storgårds is a good conductor, but he's not a master Sibelian like Vänskä is IMHO.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 25, 2022, 03:55:11 AM
This one has the narration...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81OZxtuChqL._SY355_.jpg)
This is just an aside, but I love the John Bauer illustration. I have a whole book of his illustrations that accompany Swedish fairy tales. Great stuff.
Some other favorite illustrations from Bauer:
(https://www.pictureboxblue.com/pbb-cont/pbb-up/2019/12/Illustration_from_The_boy_who_never_was_afraid.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/cb/3e/96cb3eac2c03b40b7e9830688cf5a28d.jpg)
(https://www.animationresources.org/pics/tomtar06-big.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b2/22/29/b22229cab7afdb85b10ac5aa46aa8905--john-bauer-knight-rider.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2022, 08:47:35 PM
This is just an aside, but I love the John Bauer illustration. I have a whole book of his illustrations that accompany Swedish fairy tales. Great stuff.
Some other favorite illustrations from Bauer:
(https://www.pictureboxblue.com/pbb-cont/pbb-up/2019/12/Illustration_from_The_boy_who_never_was_afraid.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/cb/3e/96cb3eac2c03b40b7e9830688cf5a28d.jpg)
(https://www.animationresources.org/pics/tomtar06-big.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b2/22/29/b22229cab7afdb85b10ac5aa46aa8905--john-bauer-knight-rider.jpg)
+1
Bauer is great. My wife is particularly keen on his work. Less so Sibelius, but you can't always have everything.
Good day today with the Sibelius Edition Tone Poems.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2022, 08:47:35 PM
This is just an aside, but I love the John Bauer illustration. I have a whole book of his illustrations that accompany Swedish fairy tales. Great stuff.
Some other favorite illustrations from Bauer:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b2/22/29/b22229cab7afdb85b10ac5aa46aa8905--john-bauer-knight-rider.jpg)
Those are great, thanks for posting,
John. I think I'll be searching for a Bauer coffee-table book now.
And I knew this one looked familiar...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Ynv2RvJ5L._SY355_.jpg)
I've also become increasingly infatuated lately with The Bard. Slightly perfect, not one errant note in this work.
When I searched online for some expanded knowledge on The Bard I initially went to Wikipedia and found this descriptive sentence, not sure who is credited with this but I liked it...
"The tone poem itself provides a profound, yet cryptic glimpse of an elegiac, poetic world: an initial, harp-led stillness and reflection are succeeded by elemental, eruptive surges and, finally, a sense of renunciation or maybe death."
Quote from: foxandpeng on May 26, 2022, 02:50:29 AM
+1
Bauer is great. My wife is particularly keen on his work. Less so Sibelius, but you can't always have everything.
8)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 26, 2022, 07:15:57 AM
Those are great, thanks for posting, John. I think I'll be searching for a Bauer coffee-table book now.
And I knew this one looked familiar...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Ynv2RvJ5L._SY355_.jpg)
This is an absolute killer performance of
Kullervo from Dausgaard. I'd rate as highly as Berlgund/Bournemouth. It's
that good.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 26, 2022, 07:42:28 AM
8)
This is an absolute killer performance of Kullervo from Dausgaard. I'd rate as highly as Berlgund/Bournemouth. It's that good.
My favourite "not-Berglund/Bournemouth" (which is still my 1st love) is the stunning live Proms version from Oramo that was a BBC Music Mag disc.... its a thriller!
(https://i.discogs.com/u8TVJEKBkQXasyeEzpxMt01RaFyWCsG5TwPlQC0kzsI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:539/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwNzEx/NDkxLTE1MDM0MTI1/NzktNTkzNi5qcGVn.jpeg)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 26, 2022, 10:40:32 AM
My favourite "not-Berglund/Bournemouth" (which is still my 1st love) is the stunning live Proms version from Oramo that was a BBC Music Mag disc.... its a thriller!
(https://i.discogs.com/u8TVJEKBkQXasyeEzpxMt01RaFyWCsG5TwPlQC0kzsI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:539/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwNzEx/NDkxLTE1MDM0MTI1/NzktNTkzNi5qcGVn.jpeg)
Very nice. I believe I have this performance somewhere.
Listening notes on a Wednesday night (complete with a glass of bourbon)...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pV6AbbacL._SL1200_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OqbKjDDfL._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81bSgJqJgvL._SY355_.jpg)
Comparing several performances of the 6th tonight, mostly just of the Allegro Molto finale and it's varied takes on the tempo. Listened to three recordings; Vanska/Lahti, Ashkenazy/Phil, Berglund/Bournemouth, which all have different approaches. Vanska and Ashkenazy start off similarly with a tempo that seems more in line with it's allegro molto marking, but Ashkenazy begins to slow down as the piece nears the end. For those that follow scores the tempo changes to doppio piu lento right before the final section as the violas fade out switching from eight notes to sixteenth notes, it's unnoticeable without seeing it notated but must've been placed there to allow extra space for the following noted espressivo to close out the piece.
Vanska mostly continues the same feel of tempo throughout until the end, whereas Ashkenazy decelerates and adds more rubato. All the while Berglund is much slower from beginning to end when compared to just about any other recording I've heard.
I don't think any of these necessarily sound more correct than the others, they are all excellent, even Berglund at such a slow pace keeps a consistent tone and is able to build intensity when needed. But I think Ashkenazy offers the most compelling take on the movement of these three. The contrast of the pacing between the opening and the closing sections is perfect for this movement.
Blomstedt/SFS was always my reference for the 6th, might still be, and Segerstam/Helsinki is another dramatically fantastic listen. It's just great to have so many different performances as Sibelius' music allows for such an variety of interpretations.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2022, 07:58:57 PM
Listening notes on a Wednesday night (complete with a glass of bourbon)...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pV6AbbacL._SL1200_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OqbKjDDfL._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81bSgJqJgvL._SY355_.jpg)
Comparing several performances of the 6th tonight, mostly just of the Allegro Molto finale and it's varied takes on the tempo. Listened to three recordings; Vanska/Lahti, Ashkenazy/Phil, Berglund/Bournemouth, which all have different approaches. Vanska and Ashkenazy start off similarly with a tempo that seems more in line with it's allegro molto marking, but Ashkenazy begins to slow down as the piece nears the end. For those that follow scores the tempo changes to doppio piu lento right before the final section as the violas fade out switching from eight notes to sixteenth notes, it's unnoticeable without seeing it notated but must've been placed there to allow extra space for the following noted espressivo to close out the piece.
Vanska mostly continues the same feel of tempo throughout until the end, whereas Ashkenazy decelerates and adds more rubato. All the while Berglund is much slower from beginning to end when compared to just about any other recording I've heard.
I don't think any of these necessarily sound more correct than the others, they are all excellent, even Berglund at such a slow pace keeps a consistent tone and is able to build intensity when needed. But I think Ashkenazy offers the most compelling take on the movement of these three. The contrast of the pacing between the opening and the closing sections is perfect for this movement.
Blomstedt/SFS was always my reference for the 6th, might still be, and Segerstam/Helsinki is another dramatically fantastic listen. It's just great to have so many different performances as Sibelius' music allows for such an variety of interpretations.
Exactly so!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2022, 09:20:59 AM
Exactly so!
+1 There are just so many ways one can interpret Sibelius' music.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2022, 07:58:57 PM
Listening notes on a Wednesday night (complete with a glass of bourbon)...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pV6AbbacL._SL1200_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OqbKjDDfL._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81bSgJqJgvL._SY355_.jpg)
Comparing several performances of the 6th tonight, mostly just of the Allegro Molto finale and it's varied takes on the tempo. Listened to three recordings; Vanska/Lahti, Ashkenazy/Phil, Berglund/Bournemouth, which all have different approaches. Vanska and Ashkenazy start off similarly with a tempo that seems more in line with it's allegro molto marking, but Ashkenazy begins to slow down as the piece nears the end. For those that follow scores the tempo changes to doppio piu lento right before the final section as the violas fade out switching from eight notes to sixteenth notes, it's unnoticeable without seeing it notated but must've been placed there to allow extra space for the following noted espressivo to close out the piece.
Vanska mostly continues the same feel of tempo throughout until the end, whereas Ashkenazy decelerates and adds more rubato. All the while Berglund is much slower from beginning to end when compared to just about any other recording I've heard.
I don't think any of these necessarily sound more correct than the others, they are all excellent, even Berglund at such a slow pace keeps a consistent tone and is able to build intensity when needed. But I think Ashkenazy offers the most compelling take on the movement of these three. The contrast of the pacing between the opening and the closing sections is perfect for this movement.
Blomstedt/SFS was always my reference for the 6th, might still be, and Segerstam/Helsinki is another dramatically fantastic listen. It's just great to have so many different performances as Sibelius' music allows for such an variety of interpretations.
Since nobody else has asked the crucial question:
How was the bourbon?
Quote from: LKB on June 10, 2022, 04:13:00 AM
Since nobody else has asked the crucial question:
How was the bourbon?
Thread winner! :D
Quote from: LKB on June 10, 2022, 04:13:00 AM
Since nobody else has asked the crucial question:
How was the bourbon?
Delicious.
(https://elijahcraig.com/images/bottles/ec-small-batch.png?ver=2)
Listened to Symphony No. 6 tonight and anyone else hear an affinity with Vaughan Williams in this music?
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 11, 2022, 12:12:45 PM
Listened to Symphony No. 6 tonight and anyone else hear an affinity with Vaughan Williams in this music?
Yes, I can. I think that VW was influenced by Sibelius, whom he greatly admired. I find an influence in (VW's) symphonies 5,6 and at one point in No.9.
Listening to Symphony No. 1 just now. It amazes me how vastly different in speed the interpretations of the closing bars can be. I've heard some where it speeds through quite quickly and others like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia that I just listened to that take it very slowly.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 12, 2022, 10:26:34 AM
Listening to Symphony No. 1 just now. It amazes me how vastly different in speed the interpretations of the closing bars can be. I've heard some where it speeds through quite quickly and others like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia that I just listened to that take it very slowly.
I find it a bit infuriating when a performance speeds through this ending, mostly because the faster the tempo the easier it is for the final two pizzicato chords from the strings to get lost in the timpani.
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 12, 2022, 10:26:34 AM
Listening to Symphony No. 1 just now. It amazes me how vastly different in speed the interpretations of the closing bars can be. I've heard some where it speeds through quite quickly and others like Ashkenazy/Philharmonia that I just listened to that take it very slowly.
I think part of the greatness of this work is the contrast in tempi of the last movement. It's both frantic and restrained. I LOVE when they slam the brakes on the final anguished moments since the faster sections of the movement are fever pitched. I think that's part of what makes it feel Russian in a sort of Rachmaninoff No. 1 ending way which similarly benefits from really halting the brakes at the end to let us indulge in that gravitas in all its vodka soaked sumptuousness.
Quote from: relm1 on June 13, 2022, 06:13:31 AM
I think part of the greatness of this work is the contrast in tempi of the last movement. It's both frantic and restrained. I LOVE when they slam the brakes on the final anguished moments since the faster sections of the movement are fever pitched. I think that's part of what makes it feel Russian in a sort of Rachmaninoff No. 1 ending way which similarly benefits from really halting the brakes at the end to let us indulge in that gravitas in all its vodka soaked sumptuousness.
I agree that this drastic slowing works very well in #1... and yet some conductors (notably Bernstein) take the coda of #4 at a similarly drastically slow pace. That was the first reading of the work that I ever heard, but ever since I first heard a more faithful interpretation (e.g. Davis), Bernstein's tempo in that coda has sounded just plain wrong.
To go back to a slightly earlier discussion about the best Sibelius orchestral work that isn't a symphony... the Lemminkainen Suite would surely have to be up there? Four symphonic poems in one go.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ddaRXTw9L._SX425_.jpg)
It's certainly one of the most ambitious things besides the symphonies (partly depending on where you place Kullervo). I'd argue that those two works (Kullervo in 1892, Lemminkainen in 1896/7) are really the lead-up to Sibelius deciding to tackle his fairly rigorous notion of a symphony.
Interestingly, Lemminkainen might also be the work that first prompted Sibelius to draw up an opus list - it's the final and most recent work on the first list we know about. So maybe he was developing a sense that he was going to have a significant legacy.
Okay, that didn't work...
Can we get some love for The Rapids-Rider's Brides? An absolute gem of an orchestral song. There seem to be only 3 recordings of it, which is a real shame. Possibly because it's for a male singer and a lot of the orchestral versions of songs are for a female singer.
No that didn't work either. Do you all just spend your time listening to the symphonies on repeat?
Ahem.
Any recommendations for Night Ride and Sunrise? I want to try alternative versions.
Jarvi/DG is nice and has plenty of energy in that work, but I haven't done any comparing.
Lemminkäinen: Ormandy/EMI or Kamu/DG
don't know that song and don't care for the repetitive night ride.
Quote from: Madiel on August 07, 2022, 04:11:57 AM
No that didn't work either. Do you all just spend your time listening to the symphonies on repeat?
Ahem.
Any recommendations for Night Ride and Sunrise? I want to try alternative versions.
Horst Stein with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande - wall-to-wall great disc;
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/sibeliussteinSR.jpg)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 07, 2022, 05:00:10 AM
Horst Stein with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande - wall-to-wall great disc;
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/sibeliussteinSR.jpg)
+1 for Horst Stein. A friend of mine recommended this Decca Double to me which I enjoy:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/616Ih5J+UwL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71jFGJc8lEL._SL1260_.jpg)
PD
Night Rides etc -
Dorati/LSO
Vanska/Lahti SO
Jarvi, P/ Royal Stockholm Philharmonic
Anthony Collins/LSO
J-P Saraste/Finnish Radio SO
Rattle/Philharmonia (edit)
Dorati/LSO is my favourite, probably because I have known it longest and still have the LP
Night Ride is too close to minimalism for my liking
A minimalist would never make the harmony so unstable.
I've just finished listening to four Night Rides and Sunrises:
1. Stein/Orchestre de la Suisse Romande (Decca, 14:24)
2. Vanska/Lahti SO (BIS, 17:35)
3. Neeme Jarvi/Gothenburg Symphony (DG, 14:49)
4. Segerstam/Helsinki PO (Ondine, 16:40)
And I think I probably like Vanska the best - which I own on CD but I would argue I really am not very familiar with until now from a handful of listens over the years between other works. Followed by Segerstam.
In the Night Ride, Stein feels strikingly aggressive in the riding. The others are more hushed, especially Vanska where it's almost ghostly at times. To my ears the repetitive nature of the riding is easier to listen to when it's more atmospheric.
The difference in timing is largely due to differences in the Sunrise portion rather than the Night Ride. Stein just feels too matter-of-fact and glib here. For me, Jarvi made a much better case for the faster tempo. But I think the slower tempi from Segerstam and Vanska are more emotionally moving, allowing the brass to make an impact. Vanska is definitely sloooow, but I think it works, the sun is in no hurry.
Quote from: Madiel on August 07, 2022, 04:11:57 AM
No that didn't work either. Do you all just spend your time listening to the symphonies on repeat?
Ahem.
Any recommendations for Night Ride and Sunrise? I want to try alternative versions.
One of the rare occasions where the Rattle/Birmingham recording stands out in my mind.
Quote from: Madiel on August 07, 2022, 09:08:32 PM
I've just finished listening to four Night Rides and Sunrises:
1. Stein/Orchestre de la Suisse Romande (Decca, 14:24)
2. Vanska/Lahti SO (BIS, 17:35)
3. Neeme Jarvi/Gothenburg Symphony (DG, 14:49)
4. Segerstam/Helsinki PO (Ondine, 16:40)
And I think I probably like Vanska the best - which I own on CD but I would argue I really am not very familiar with until now from a handful of listens over the years between other works. Followed by Segerstam.
In the Night Ride, Stein feels strikingly aggressive in the riding. The others are more hushed, especially Vanska where it's almost ghostly at times. To my ears the repetitive nature of the riding is easier to listen to when it's more atmospheric.
The difference in timing is largely due to differences in the Sunrise portion rather than the Night Ride. Stein just feels too matter-of-fact and glib here. For me, Jarvi made a much better case for the faster tempo. But I think the slower tempi from Segerstam and Vanska are more emotionally moving, allowing the brass to make an impact. Vanska is definitely sloooow, but I think it works, the sun is in no hurry.
Interesting - the only one that I know well is Stein which I owned on LP. I think that your comments on it are fair.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 07, 2022, 10:18:55 PM
Interesting - the only one that I know well is Stein which I owned on LP. I think that your comments on it are fair.
Do you have any other recordings of the work that you're partial to?
Quote from: Madiel on August 07, 2022, 11:51:50 PM
Do you have any other recordings of the work that you're partial to?
Hi. Yes, when I saw your post with the images I realised that I had all but the Jarvi recordings. Segerstam's is probably my favourite but Vanska is always good. I like the Colin Davis (RCA) recording on a fine CD of Sibelius's music.
(//)
Quote from: vandermolen on August 08, 2022, 12:03:59 AM
Hi. Yes, when I saw your post with the images I realised that I had all but the Jarvi recordings. Segerstam's is probably my favourite but Vanska is always good. I like the Colin Davis (RCA) recording on a fine CD of Sibelius's music.
(//)
Thanks. I see that Davis is another slow one (between Segerstam and Vanska in overall timing). I'll check it out.
Quote from: Madiel on August 08, 2022, 12:22:47 AM
Thanks. I see that Davis is another slow one (between Segerstam and Vanska in overall timing). I'll check it out.
Yes, do. It's a really nice disc. Colin Davis is not one of my favourite conductors but I think that the RCA Sibelius disc of shorter works was something special. I don't think that you will be disappointed. I remember thinking very highly of the 'Tapiola'.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 07, 2022, 09:13:47 PM
One of the rare occasions where the Rattle/Birmingham recording stands out in my mind.
I was going to ask, "What Rattle/Birmingham recording?", as I have the Rattle/CBSO box and don't remember that. It looks like that was actually with the Philharmonia.
(https://i.discogs.com/6CoSnFqt9VRIu66oMdB4Wsj8VFoeE-u9AfJmQdhv32Y/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:591/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTcwMTky/NDEtMTY1OTkxMzkz/OS02NjEwLmpwZWc.jpeg)
My entrée to the Op. 55 was Segerstam/Helsinki on Ondine, which I find so satisfying, I've not looked elsewhere. I see, though, that I also have the Rattle, and Doráti leading the LSO
Quote from: Biffo on August 07, 2022, 05:38:41 AM
Night Rides etc -
Dorati/LSO
Vanska/Lahti SO
Jarvi, P/ Royal Stockholm Philharmonic
Anthony Collins/LSO
J-P Saraste/Finnish Radio SO
Rattle/Philharmonia (edit)
Dorati/LSO is my favourite, probably because I have known it longest and still have the LP
That Dorati disc was very fine, featuring my favourite Luonnotar I think.
Does anyone have any recommendations for song recitals? As in piano and voice, not the orchestral versions.
I'm beginning to feel that Tom Krause takes the same dramatic, slightly operatic approach to absolutely everything. And while there are songs that certainly are big dramatic things that are breaking the boundaries of what a piano can do, and sound like they were conceived with an orchestra in mind before an orchestration ever happened... there are also songs where I can't help wondering what a slightly more melodious singer would do.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41SZ--Kuh3L._UX358_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BvaJoFcUL._SX425_.jpg)I know Hurwitz (on his YouTube channel) really hates the Colin Davis London Symphony set - but I REALLY love that set now. I love all of Davis's Sibelius.
Quote from: Leo K. on September 22, 2022, 09:17:32 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BvaJoFcUL._SX425_.jpg)I know Hurwitz (on his YouTube channel) really hates the Colin Davis London Symphony set - but I REALLY love that set now. I love all of Davis's Sibelius.
Maybe it isn't that he hates it, just that it doesn't compare to Colin Davis's Boston Symphony Sibelius Cycle which is exceptional. The LSO cycle is meh in comparison. When I heard Davis/LSO, I was hoping for a digital version of BSO but it was a sleeper version where BSO was on fire.
Quote from: relm1 on September 22, 2022, 04:28:42 PM
Maybe it isn't that he hates it, just that it doesn't compare to Colin Davis's Boston Symphony Sibelius Cycle which is exceptional. The LSO cycle is meh in comparison. When I heard Davis/LSO, I was hoping for a digital version of BSO but it was a sleeper version where BSO was on fire.
I also prefer the Boston SO set. However, there is a wonderful LSO CD of tone poems which I'd strongly recommend:
(//)
I agree the Colin Davis BSO set is his best and truly incredible!
Well damn, guys, I truly do not need another Sibelius cycle, but these comments are seriously tempting me to seek out the Colin Davis Boston set which I know is very inexpensive. But no, I'll resist (for now).
Lately I've been listening to Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Maazel/Vienna. I do have a few minor reservations about both of them, but they are both incredible takes on the music.
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2022, 02:33:23 PM
Well damn, guys, I truly do not need another Sibelius cycle, but these comments are seriously tempting me to seek out the Colin Davis Boston set which I know is very inexpensive. But no, I'll resist (for now).
Lately I've been listening to Ashkenazy/Philharmonia and Maazel/Vienna. I do have a few minor reservations about both of them, but they are both incredible takes on the music.
If you like those (which I also admire), you'll love Colin Davis Boston. It's excellent.
apropos of nothing, my ideal cycle, without repeating conductors:
1 - Segerstam/Helsinki
2 - Paray/Detroit (especially if you could edit out his humming)
3 - Mustonen/Helsinki Festival
4 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
5 - Bernstein/New York
6 - Blomstedt/San Francisco
7 - not sure I could identify one that is ideal.
Quote from: Leo K. on September 22, 2022, 09:17:32 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71BvaJoFcUL._SX425_.jpg)I know Hurwitz (on his YouTube channel) really hates the Colin Davis London Symphony set - but I REALLY love that set now. I love all of Davis's Sibelius.
https://www.youtube.com/v/GLLJJvhJk20
Bah, Hurwitz. He's neither God nor infallible. I'll allow he does perform a service after a fashion, but there have always been critics l've trusted more.
The Davis Sibelius cycle is widely respected, and justly so. When it was new we plugged it at Tower, and I'm still willing to do so now. 8)
In my understanding the most respected Sibelius symphonies by Davis were the Boston recordings from the 1970s. But this might be because they had a head start.
Quote from: LKB on November 14, 2022, 09:32:06 PM
but there have always been critics l've trusted more.
Such as?
Quote from: Madiel on November 15, 2022, 12:24:00 AM
Such as?
You are not asking me but Robert Layton knows his Sibelius.
https://youtu.be/dN9BDWPdtIo
Quote from: Irons on November 16, 2022, 11:53:03 PM
You are not asking me but Robert Layton knows his Sibelius.
https://youtu.be/dN9BDWPdtIo
I wasn't specifically asking about Sibelius reviews. The basic issue is which critics I can actually go and read/listen to on a regular basis.
The BBC record review is in fact one of the better alternative options I know about, so long as you can find a relevant episode.
Quote from: Madiel on November 17, 2022, 01:10:39 AM
I wasn't specifically asking about Sibelius reviews. The basic issue is which critics I can actually go and read/listen to on a regular basis.
The BBC record review is in fact one of the better alternative options I know about, so long as you can find a relevant episode.
Fair enough and of course Robert Layton is not still with us. The problem for me, perhaps I'm easily led, is even a critic I believe in can do more harm then good. I have met Tully Potter and admire him for his vast knowledge of music and recordings. I am at present listening to a lot of recordings by Quartetto Italiano after a hiatus caused by TP's critique that though a fine ensemble they lacked rhythmic drive. Maybe they do but you wouldn't notice, on the other hand their phrasing is out of this world.
Quartetto Italiano made enough outstanding records to find a spot on anyone's shelf. I have them doing the Beethoven Late Quartets, with Hollywood on one side and Berg on the other.
As far as critics are concerned, the " young and manic " phase of my classical acquisitions roughly corresponded with the heyday of the Penguin Stereo Guide. Messers Greenfield, Layton and March were avidly perused, with the odd peek at a recent Fanfare thrown in at irregular intervals.
My boss at Tower Records was the Classical buyer ( and resident J.S. Bach fanatic ) for the store, and l learned to trust his judgement with composers and/or ensembles l wasn't familiar with.
And yes, l was referring to the Davis/BSO/ Philips cycle.
Quote from: Brian on November 14, 2022, 02:34:34 PM
apropos of nothing, my ideal cycle, without repeating conductors:
1 - Segerstam/Helsinki
2 - Paray/Detroit (especially if you could edit out his humming)
3 - Mustonen/Helsinki Festival
4 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
5 - Bernstein/New York
6 - Blomstedt/San Francisco
7 - not sure I could identify one that is ideal.
Interesting. Mine is:
1 - Segerstam/Helsinki
2 - Szell/Cleveland
3 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
4 - Maazel/Vienna
5 - Rattle/Philharmonia
6 - Davis/Boston
7 - Inkinen/New Zealand
Sarge
Oh, shoot, if that Szell 2 is the live one from Tokyo, that is a great choice and I regret mine now ;D I considered Inkinen for 7. One of the few to get the final coda right.
This evening's list :)
1: Stokowski
2: Beecham (live)
3: Segerstam (Chandos)
4: Beecham/Maazel
5: Sargent (BBC)
6: Collins
7: Koussevitsky/Kajanus
Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2022, 10:20:42 AM
Oh, shoot, if that Szell 2 is the live one from Tokyo
It is 8)
Sarge
I Updated the Sibelius Symphony Cycle Survey (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html):
Namely the remaining Mark Elder & Halle release(s) have been added, finally, after that cycle was completed. And the complete Karajan recordings of his Sibelius for DG have been issued in a fab CD/Blu-ray set. Yes, not a cycle, technically, but the 4th alone justifies its inclusion. And it includes both the 60s and 80s recordings of the symphonic poems.
A Survey of Sibelius Symphony Cycles
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwx038uONik/UO2fRX1CKLI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/lG1oNnrnjOU/s1600/Sibelius_standard_laurson_600.jpg) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/survey-of-sibelius-cycles.html)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 17, 2022, 08:43:48 AMInteresting. Mine is:
1 - Segerstam/Helsinki
2 - Szell/Cleveland
3 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
4 - Maazel/Vienna
5 - Rattle/Philharmonia
6 - Davis/Boston
7 - Inkinen/New Zealand
Sarge
1 - Berglund/COE/Warner
2 - Barbirolli/Royal Phil/Chesky
3 - Kletzki/Philharmonia/Testament
4 - Karajan/Berlin/DG
5 - Celibidache/Swedish RSO/DG
6 - Vänskä/Lahti/BIS
7 - Segerstam/Helsinki/Ondine
Notable mentions: Mravisnky 7th and Segerstam in everything. Oh, and Sanderling. And Maazel.
One of Naxos' free downloads for February (MP3 or FLAC format) is this interesting/well-played disc;
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KGcQNsFiL._AC_SX425_.jpg)
This series of Segerstam/Sibelius Theatre music is very good.
It is indeed a fine series. I went for the box set as the best way to get a lot of music, some of it not recorded very frequently.
One of the best performances I have heard of the 4th Symphony, urgent, gripping, riveting:
Believe it or not.....even though I have been listening to Sibelius for a number of years, this was my very first listening to this piece. A lovely gift from John (MI).
Impressed by this work of Sibelius, and the vocal parts were more palatable than I was anticipating. ;D
Kullervo, Op. 7
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYxNzc1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NjQ2NjM2NzV9)
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 23, 2023, 12:14:54 PMBelieve it or not.....even though I have been listening to Sibelius for a number of years, this was my very first listening to this piece. A lovely gift from John (MI).
Impressed by this work of Sibelius, and the vocal parts were more palatable than I was anticipating. ;D
Kullervo, Op. 7
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYxNzc1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NjQ2NjM2NzV9)
A great work indeed.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 23, 2023, 12:14:54 PMBelieve it or not.....even though I have been listening to Sibelius for a number of years, this was my very first listening to this piece. A lovely gift from John (MI).
Impressed by this work of Sibelius, and the vocal parts were more palatable than I was anticipating. ;D
Kullervo, Op. 7
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYxNzc1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NjQ2NjM2NzV9)
I should revisit Kullervo, I admit I rarely listen to this Sibelius' work.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on February 23, 2023, 12:14:54 PMBelieve it or not.....even though I have been listening to Sibelius for a number of years, this was my very first listening to this piece. A lovely gift from John (MI).
Impressed by this work of Sibelius, and the vocal parts were more palatable than I was anticipating. ;D
Kullervo, Op. 7
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYxNzc1My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NjQ2NjM2NzV9)
Great piece! And one of the first Naxos discs ever I bought, back when they were IIRC USD$4.99.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 23, 2023, 12:30:08 PMI should revisit Kullervo, I admit I rarely listen to this Sibelius' work.
I think it is a wonderful work but for me no version has ever surpassed the 1st recording - Berglund/Bournemouth SO on EMI;
(https://i.discogs.com/KZ2GqvuAbI50XrBSU5eWJCQ1aJlkOKPxTkFUAZ7YTzk/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM5Nzgz/MTUtMTQyNTg1ODg0/Ni0yNTA3LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Not so long ago I was driving somewhere and on BBC Radio 3 they were playing part of this work. I made sure I listened to the end and was delighted that indeed it was this version because I'd sat through it thinking this is a really good performance. Perhaps I should have recognised it - but I was glad my "innocent ear" still approved!
This new recording of No. 3 and 4 from Montreal/Yannick Nézet-Séguin is beautiful. It isn't my favorite of either symphony, but it reminds me just how fantastic a composer Sibelius is...that it still feels so fresh and interesting every time I hear any of them. One of the finest symphonists ever. He's one of the very few composers where I can't stop wanting to hear more. Yesterday I listened to his string quartets and found them so embracing. Today a brand new recording of Symphony No. 3 and 4 that I've heard so many times and need more! What makes him so engaging? I think part of it is his balance of energy (No. 3 end) and introspection (No. 3 early). His sparseness and fullness. How epic he is and yet how personal. He's so conflicting. A fantastic composer. A bit like Shakespeare that is open to constantly being reevaluated and reinterpreted. I adore him.
(https://panm360.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Sibelius_3_4_Cover_1400_1400-500x500.jpg)
Favorite recording of Sibelius' Lemminkainen? I don't know the work very well just yet aside from the famous Swan.
Would also love recommendations for recordings of Sibelius' piano music, if anyone is familiar with the stuff at all (what I've heard seems to recall Grieg's Lyric Pieces); as well as his string quartets.
I've been revisiting the Berglund/Bournemouth, slowly, over the past month or so. It was my introduction to the composer and still my favorite, though I think I have four full cycles now—more full symphonic cycle recordings than any other composer in my library save for Brahms.
I'll re-up this post from another thread about the piano music:
Quote from: Brian on December 04, 2022, 01:04:37 PMFollowing up with another favorite album that feels appropriately wintry.
(https://eclassical.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h2020/4942020-origpic-0e74b4.jpg)
Recorded on Sibelius' own 1915 Steinway, a gift from a collection of Finnish music fans, in the room of his house where it's sat for a century. The story of the piano is remarkable itself: Wilhelm Kempff visited Sibelius and played the 'Hammerklavier' at JS's request; a very young Isaac Stern visited and asked Sibelius to accompany him; Emil Gilels played through Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues Op. 87 for the Finnish composer; and Sibelius himself presented a recital to his family every Christmas.
For all those reasons, in addition to Folke Grasbeck's folksy, intimate, chamber-scaled performances, this is one of the two must-own Sibelius piano discs (with Andsnes). And the piano really is lovely.
In general Grasbeck is more "homey" and intimate, Andsnes more "concerty," but Andsnes never compromises the basic qualities of the music, from the romantic early works to the more enigmatic later ones. They would both go to my desert island.
I am a fan of a fast, exciting, wild Lemminkainen Suite, especially one where the famous cor anglais solo is integrated into the orchestra rather than spotlit like a concerto. There are not many on the fast and aggressive side in recent decades, but the mono Ormandy performance is a remarkable, fiery, exciting historic document in pretty great sound for its era (I think it's from 1953ish). On the opposite end, Mikko Franck on Ondine is incredibly slow (11 minutes slower than his labelmate Segerstam, who also has a lot of fans), but with loads of detail and insight unavailable elsewhere.
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 03, 2023, 05:04:02 PMFavorite recording of Sibelius' Lemminkainen? I don't know the work very well just yet aside from the famous Swan.
Would also love recommendations for recordings of Sibelius' piano music, if anyone is familiar with the stuff at all (what I've heard seems to recall Grieg's Lyric Pieces); as well as his string quartets.
I've been revisiting the Berglund/Bournemouth, slowly, over the past month or so. It was my introduction to the composer and still my favorite, though I think I have four full cycles now—more full symphonic cycle recordings than any other composer in my library save for Brahms.
You won't go far wrong with Berglund/Bournemouth (make sure you add/have the same forces Kullervo as well). Sadly they never made a Lemminkainen Suite. But the same applies to many of the earlier great Sibelius conductors - so no cycle by Bernstein/Karajan/Barbirolli/Maazel/Sanderling. The late Ormandy remake on EMI lacks the fire of the earlier set, Davis doing Sibleius in London isn't as good as the earlier symphony cycle in Boston but he didn't include a Lemminkainen set then.
So of the existing ones I suppose consider Gibson/SNO, Horst Stein/L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, Jarvi/Gothenberg (BIS) or Vanska/Lahti (who includes the original versions but I seem to remember there was a recording issue so not technically BIS' finest hour). Those are the ones I know but there are many others I don't!
Mertanen for the piano music as a complete set.
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 03, 2023, 05:04:02 PMFavorite recording of Sibelius' Lemminkainen? I don't know the work very well just yet aside from the famous Swan.
Would also love recommendations for recordings of Sibelius' piano music, if anyone is familiar with the stuff at all (what I've heard seems to recall Grieg's Lyric Pieces); as well as his string quartets.
I've been revisiting the Berglund/Bournemouth, slowly, over the past month or so. It was my introduction to the composer and still my favorite, though I think I have four full cycles now—more full symphonic cycle recordings than any other composer in my library save for Brahms.
Thomas Jensen's Danish RSO recording of the 4 Legends for Orchestra is my favourite version. It was for many years the only version that I knew (Decca Eclipse LP) but I think that it has a unique atmosphere. If you want a more modern version I enjoyed Segerstam's Ondine recording (with a fine 'Tapiola'). The Eloquence CD release of the Thomas Jensen recording includes an extraordinary cover image of Eduard van Beinum struggling with a hot potato in his mouth.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 04, 2023, 12:52:12 AMThomas Jensen's Danish RSO recording of the 4 Legends for Orchestra is my favourite version. It was for many years the only version that I knew (Decca Eclipse LP) but I think that it has a unique atmosphere. If you want a more modern version I enjoyed Segerstam's Ondine recording (with a fine 'Tapiola'). The Eloquence CD release of the Thomas Jensen recording includes an extraordinary cover image of Eduard van Beinum struggling with a hot potato in his mouth.
Good shout - that must have been one of the very first recordings of all 4 legends. I remember the Decca Eclipse cover but never owned that recording. The first LP of the Legends I got was from my "home team";
(https://i.discogs.com/vkMCBhoiDr7jqd7ILuth8VQa-nB8jlpWAhrZrwrzeJw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:400/w:395/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQyNDE4/MjYtMTM1OTQ3OTEy/My00Nzk2LmpwZWc.jpeg)
back in the day when the RLPO hardly made any records. Its good but not the most characterful......
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 04, 2023, 01:30:16 AMGood shout - that must have been one of the very first recordings of all 4 legends. I remember the Decca Eclipse cover but never owned that recording. The first LP of the Legends I got was from my "home team";
(https://i.discogs.com/vkMCBhoiDr7jqd7ILuth8VQa-nB8jlpWAhrZrwrzeJw/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:400/w:395/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQyNDE4/MjYtMTM1OTQ3OTEy/My00Nzk2LmpwZWc.jpeg)
back in the day when the RLPO hardly made any records. Its good but not the most characterful......
I liked many Groves's recordings (Bliss: Colour Symphony for example) nice cover art
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 03, 2023, 05:04:02 PMFavorite recording of Sibelius' Lemminkainen? I don't know the work very well just yet aside from the famous Swan...
" Justly famous ", l should think. My one chief regret from my years playing the oboe and ( occasionally ) Cor Anglais is that l never had a shot at the piece. Pity, as it would have been right up my alley. ???
Quote from: LKB on April 04, 2023, 12:39:58 PM" Justly famous ", l should think. My one chief regret from my years playing the oboe and ( occasionally ) Cor Anglais is that l never had a shot at the piece. Pity, as it would have been right up my alley. ???
:(
Will have to revisit L.S. as it's been some time. Re the Swan, I love a recording that I have of it with Stokowski from this set.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/21B6YZRMVTL.jpg)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2023, 01:05:13 PM:(
Will have to revisit L.S. as it's been some time. Re the Swan, I love a recording that I have of it with Stokowski from this set.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/21B6YZRMVTL.jpg)
I haven't heard Stokowski's recording, but l should have time to find it tonight if someone's uploaded it to YouTube. 8)
I am neither an expert on Sibelius nor on the Lemminkäinen suite but I think it is worth to have/play all of it, not only the "Swan". IIRC I have three complete recordings, all of which were recommended by Sibelians: Kamu/Helsinki/DG (probably only findable as part of a French twofer "Splendeurs du Nord" coupled to some Karajan), Gibson/Scottish/Chandos, Ormandy/EMI. All are good (1970s, I think) stereo recordings.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 05, 2023, 03:31:16 AMI am neither an expert on Sibelius nor on the Lemminkäinen suite but I think it is worth to have/play all of it, not only the "Swan". IIRC I have three complete recordings, all of which were recommended by Sibelians: Kamu/Helsinki/DG (probably only findable as part of a French twofer "Splendeurs du Nord" coupled to some Karajan), Gibson/Scottish/Chandos, Ormandy/EMI. All are good (1970s, I think) stereo recordings.
Good shout for the Kamu/Helsinki - its very good
Just noting that there are two different Lahti SO/Vanska recordings of the Lemminkainen suite - one recorded in 1999, and another recorded in 2007 but not released until 2014.
I'm not sure which one is the that's regarded to have inferior sound quality? Perhaps it's the first one and that's why the second exists. I have the second, which is actually a hybrid SACD and I certainly don't recall any sound problems with that one.
(https://i.discogs.com/WlRLe0oqfXLL0Oily0i8OHyi1oJ418w79NxyBxdncEQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEwMTM1/NTE5LTE0OTIyNTQx/MDItMjY5OC5qcGVn.jpeg)
I'll come clean: I really hadn't imagined that there were any "neglected Sibelius works."
Revival: Georgia students to perform American premiere of neglected Sibelius work (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/04/revival-georgia-students-to-perform-american-premiere-of-neglected-sibelius-work/)
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 16, 2023, 09:34:18 AMI'll come clean: I really hadn't imagined that there were any "neglected Sibelius works."
Revival: Georgia students to perform American premiere of neglected Sibelius work (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/04/revival-georgia-students-to-perform-american-premiere-of-neglected-sibelius-work/)
Cool story! Thanks for sharing that article! I will eagerly await their upload to their youtube channel.
Any idea when that other (one and only) recording was done Karl?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 16, 2023, 01:01:59 PMCool story! Thanks for sharing that article! I will eagerly await their upload to their youtube channel.
Any idea when that other (one and only) recording was done Karl?
PD
Dunno!
Oh absolutely there are neglected works. Especially the student ones, but not only those.
As for the Piano Quartet JS 157 (which is a very early work), it's not surprisingly in the BIS complete edition.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51pqjplmZ2L._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kwtKW1w5L._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: Madiel on April 16, 2023, 05:05:11 PMOh absolutely there are neglected works. Especially the student ones, but not only those.
As for the Piano Quartet JS 157 (which is a very early work), it's not surprisingly in the BIS complete edition.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51pqjplmZ2L._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kwtKW1w5L._SX425_.jpg)
Ah, yes, of course. Alas, I don't have that humango set.
PD
David Hurwitz adores this recent release of symphonies 3 and 4. I haven't listened yet.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xwLrbV4fL._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: Madiel on April 19, 2023, 03:08:04 AMDavid Hurwitz adores this recent release of symphonies 3 and 4. I haven't listened yet.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91xwLrbV4fL._SX425_.jpg)
I have heard No 3, it was OK but not outstanding. I have saved the album to my Spotify library and will listen to No 4 in due course.
A review of 3rd Symphony recordings. https://youtu.be/PiZ0BbR1frM
"like Dark Side of the Moon".
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 05, 2023, 03:37:35 AMGood shout for the Kamu/Helsinki - its very good
I agree - also Thomas Jensen with the Danish RSO.
I think that I prefer the Decca Eclipse LP cover!
Quote from: vandermolen on June 15, 2023, 08:42:10 AMI agree - also Thomas Jensen with the Danish RSO.
I think that I prefer the Decca Eclipse LP cover!
Lol. Though the landscape cover looks more like Scotland than Finland.
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 15, 2023, 06:54:20 PMLol. Though the landscape cover looks more like Scotland than Finland.
Yes, Decca Eclipse used National Trust locations I remember the Lake District in the snow standing in for the Antarctic in Sinfonia Antartica by Vaughan Williams!
Still, Eduard Van Beinum struggling with a hot potato in his mouth has a certain appeal.
@Roasted Swan asked about Previn and Philly and Sibelius No. 2. You know what? I goofed! This is what happens when one (at least me) doesn't get a good night's sleep--that and not checking my shelves. I was confusing my Previn/Vaughan Williams set (on RCA) on VW's symphonies with Sibelius. Sigh...I do have his (Sibelius') No. 2 with Previn on Telarc (with the Lark), but it's with (I believe) the Royal Phil. So no, I don't know that recording.
Are others here familiar with it? If so, I would also like to hear your thoughts.
I also have some other sets, but need to get more coffee now. :)
RS, which sets do you own?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 03, 2023, 06:05:36 AM@Roasted Swan asked about Previn and Philly and Sibelius No. 2. You know what? I goofed! This is what happens when one (at least me) doesn't get a good night's sleep--that and not checking my shelves. I was confusing my Previn/Vaughan Williams set (on RCA) on VW's symphonies with Sibelius. Sigh...I do have his (Sibelius') No. 2 with Previn on Telarc (with the Lark), but it's with (I believe) the Royal Phil. So no, I don't know that recording.
Are others here familiar with it? If so, I would also like to hear your thoughts.
I also have some other sets, but need to get more coffee now. :)
RS, which sets do you own?
PD
I have a Sibelian itch that I can't stop scratching. The result being that I have more sets of the symphonies than I can rationally justify. Not that that has stopped me in the past or indeed probably the future. The main ones I
don't have are;
Collins/LSO
Vanska/Minnesota
that new young guy/Oslo
Dausgaard(?)/BBC PO
Rattle/Berlin
I have just about all the other main conductor sets. Favourites are;
Kamu/Lahti
Berglund/Bournemouth
Bernstein/NYPO
Sanderling/Berlin RSO
Gibson/SNO
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2023, 06:47:10 AMI have a Sibelian itch that I can't stop scratching. The result being that I have more sets of the symphonies than I can rationally justify. Not that that has stopped me in the past or indeed probably the future. The main ones I don't have are;
Collins/LSO
Vanska/Minnesota
that new young guy/Oslo
Dausgaard(?)/BBC PO
Rattle/Berlin
I have just about all the other main conductor sets. Favourites are;
Kamu/Lahti
Berglund/Bournemouth
Bernstein/NYPO
Sanderling/Berlin RSO
Gibson/SNO
LOL
And nice! Who is that young guy Oslo though?
@Lisztianwagner Which symphonies didn't Karajan record? By the way, on LP with him I have that Finlandia, etc., LP (on DG), Symphonies Nos. 4 & 5 with the Philharmonie and No. 6 with the Berliner Philharmoniker. I want to say that I have (somewhere!) an LP of the second on EMI? LPs aren't the easiest for me to access though.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 03, 2023, 09:07:42 AM@Lisztianwagner Which symphonies didn't Karajan record? By the way, on LP with him I have that Finlandia, etc., LP (on DG), Symphonies Nos. 4 & 5 with the Philharmonie and No. 6 with the Berliner Philharmoniker. I want to say that I have (somewhere!) an LP of the second on EMI? LPs aren't the easiest for me to access though.
PD
He didn't record Sibelius 3, if I'm not wrong. That's very probable, I have a EMI disc of Karajan's Sibelius 2 (matched with Symphony No. 5) too.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 03, 2023, 09:07:42 AMLOL
And nice! Who is that young guy Oslo though?
@Lisztianwagner Which symphonies didn't Karajan record? By the way, on LP with him I have that Finlandia, etc., LP (on DG), Symphonies Nos. 4 & 5 with the Philharmonie and No. 6 with the Berliner Philharmoniker. I want to say that I have (somewhere!) an LP of the second on EMI? LPs aren't the easiest for me to access though.
PD
Klaus Mäkelä
Lisztianwagner is correct - Karajan never recorded 3 which is why in the DG set the BPO 3 is conducted by a young Okko Kamu
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 03, 2023, 09:24:39 AMHe didn't record Sibelius 3, if I'm not wrong. That's very probable, I have a EMI disc of Karajan's Sibelius 2 (matched with Symphony No. 5) too.
Do you happen to know if he recorded all of the same symphonies for both EMI and DG?
I do also have this CD--though I didn't see it in my Karajan mini/partial collection. Earlier, I was scratching my head swearing that I had at least one CD and as part of the Karajan Edition. Well, I was correct as it's in my iTunes library (must have missed it on the shelves as those Karajan Edition CDs that I do own are up rather high. lol ).
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51SzUVMwBUL.jpg)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2023, 09:45:30 AMKlaus Mäkelä
Lisztianwagner is correct - Karajan never recorded 3 which is why in the DG set the BPO 3 is conducted by a young Okko Kamu
Oh, thanks. I didn't know that DG had released a set of those symphonies.
PD
In the stereo era, HvK recorded nos 4,5,6,7 with the BPO for DG in the '60s.
He recorded nos 1,2,4,5,6 again with the BPO for EMI, some of these were late enough to be digital recordings. The original cover art for these was exceptionally striking in their 12" guise.
(https://i.discogs.com/vSdrtc4aaxsZHizat0Aj6LBIsXeQ0kngVbVV6FKc3Eg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:482/w:481/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTY4NjUx/MDktMTQyODI3MTQ1/Mi01NzIzLmpwZWc.jpeg)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2023, 06:47:10 AMI have a Sibelian itch that I can't stop scratching. The result being that I have more sets of the symphonies than I can rationally justify. Not that that has stopped me in the past or indeed probably the future. The main ones I don't have are;
Collins/LSO
Vanska/Minnesota
that new young guy/Oslo
Dausgaard(?)/BBC PO
Rattle/Berlin
I have just about all the other main conductor sets. Favourites are;
Kamu/Lahti
Berglund/Bournemouth
Bernstein/NYPO
Sanderling/Berlin RSO
Gibson/SNO
You have a pretty good set but I'd ditch Collins/LSO from your not yet have list and put Collins/Boston on your must own list. It might not knock the others away but deserves to be listed among those.
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2023, 06:24:45 AMYou have a pretty good set but I'd ditch Collins/LSO from your not yet have list and put Collins/Boston on your must own list. It might not knock the others away but deserves to be listed among those.
Do you mean Colin Davis/Boston? I've been looking at grabbing that set for a looong time, because I always see it so cheap on Ebay. But I've got more than enough Sibelius at the moment. I haven't heard any of Anthony Collins' Sibelius; it seems to divide opinion.
The ones I have and like are Berglund/Bournemouth, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, and Maazel/Vienna.
Quote from: aukhawk on July 04, 2023, 05:59:08 AMIn the stereo era, HvK recorded nos 4,5,6,7 with the BPO for DG in the '60s.
He recorded nos 1,2,4,5,6 again with the BPO for EMI, some of these were late enough to be digital recordings. The original cover art for these was exceptionally striking in their 12" guise.
(https://i.discogs.com/vSdrtc4aaxsZHizat0Aj6LBIsXeQ0kngVbVV6FKc3Eg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:482/w:481/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTY4NjUx/MDktMTQyODI3MTQ1/Mi01NzIzLmpwZWc.jpeg)
The recordings Karajan made with the Philharmonia are the freshest in my view. Walter Legge, the producer, famously disliked stereo and insisted in mono. We do have the Philharmonia 5th Symphony in stereo though.
Quote from: Irons on July 04, 2023, 07:37:40 AMThe recordings Karajan made with the Philharmonia are the freshest in my view. Walter Legge, the producer, famously disliked stereo and insisted in mono. We do have the Philharmonia 5th Symphony in stereo though.
Oh, interesting! I'll try and listen to/find more of them. :)
PD
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 04, 2023, 06:46:41 AMDo you mean Colin Davis/Boston? I've been looking at grabbing that set for a looong time, because I always see it so cheap on Ebay. But I've got more than enough Sibelius at the moment. I haven't heard any of Anthony Collins' Sibelius; it seems to divide opinion.
The ones I have and like are Berglund/Bournemouth, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, and Maazel/Vienna.
Sorry, you're right. I switched conductors on you. I meant Colin Davis/Boston preferring it to Colin Davis/LSO.
Fascinating. Newly discovered score of Karelia Suite.
"According to Hannikainen, the notation discovered in the spring is exceptionally perfected and significantly different from the previously known Karelia Overture and Suite: the polyphony is richer, details more accurate, orchestration fuller, tempos more varied and articulations livelier. Entirely new bars have also been added to the overture."
https://helsinkifestival.fi/en/event/helsinki-philharmonic-orchestra-tuomas-hannikainen-sibelius-new-karelia/ (https://helsinkifestival.fi/en/event/helsinki-philharmonic-orchestra-tuomas-hannikainen-sibelius-new-karelia/)
Sibelius is an endlessly fascinating composer who keeps revealing surprises.
Quote from: relm1 on August 10, 2023, 03:39:38 PMFascinating. Newly discovered score of Karelia Suite.
"According to Hannikainen, the notation discovered in the spring is exceptionally perfected and significantly different from the previously known Karelia Overture and Suite: the polyphony is richer, details more accurate, orchestration fuller, tempos more varied and articulations livelier. Entirely new bars have also been added to the overture."
https://helsinkifestival.fi/en/event/helsinki-philharmonic-orchestra-tuomas-hannikainen-sibelius-new-karelia/ (https://helsinkifestival.fi/en/event/helsinki-philharmonic-orchestra-tuomas-hannikainen-sibelius-new-karelia/)
Sibelius is an endlessly fascinating composer who keeps revealing surprises.
I hope that they broadcast it as I'd love to hear it!
PD
I had to go hunting for information about the Concert Overture they mention. Apparently it's music from the opera The Maiden in the Tower.
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2023, 06:24:45 AMYou have a pretty good set but I'd ditch Collins/LSO from your not yet have list and put Collins/Boston on your must own list. It might not knock the others away but deserves to be listed among those.
I missed your reply a month ago - sorry! I have Davis/Boston already but its not as favourite a cycle for me as I know it is for others.
Fascinating that the Sixth Symphony doesn't have a slow movement. In that sense it's a lot like Beethoven 8.
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 21, 2023, 09:47:50 AMFascinating that the Sixth Symphony doesn't have a slow movement. In that sense it's a lot like Beethoven 8.
Yes! I don't like when conductors try to turn the second movement into a slow one artificially.
Anyone familiar with Sibelius' (only?) opera, Jungfrun i tornet? Wondering if it's worth a listen.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 21, 2023, 03:44:11 PMAnyone familiar with Sibelius' (only?) opera, Jungfrun i tornet? Wondering if it's worth a listen.
I enjoyed it but I love all Sibelius. It's worth a listen to hear a rare stage effort from him. I wouldn't classify it as great Sibelius but interesting ideas from a great composer.
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 21, 2023, 03:44:11 PMAnyone familiar with Sibelius' (only?) opera, Jungfrun i tornet? Wondering if it's worth a listen.
I have it in the BIS box set for voice and orchestra. I'm not wild about the BIS recording, it's rather on the harsh side as they themselves acknowledge, which unfortunately just emphasises the screeching qualities of the soprano. It's a bit better if you listen to the alternative recording (Paavo Jarvi, rather than his Dad).
I always keep an eye out for Classic Selects weekly free downloads. This week they are interesting and well-worth hearing - 2 volumes of Adrian Boult conducting Sibleius tone poems with the LPO moonlighting as "The London Promenade Orchestra" or somesuch. Really interesting and dynamic performances yet again proving that Boult was so much more than 'just' a patrician conductor who did Elgar and the German Romantics.....
https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/sibelius-tone-poems-vol-1-adrian-boult-philharmonia-promenade-orchestra-of-london
(https://www.classicselectworld.com/cdn/shop/files/SIBELIUSTONEPOEMS.jpg?v=1696692335&width=713)
https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/sibelius-tone-poems-vol-2-patriotic-and-nature-pieces-adrian-boult-london?variant=44633470337274
(https://www.classicselectworld.com/cdn/shop/files/SIBELIUSTONEPOEMSv2.jpg?v=1697209759&width=713)
These can be downloaded as FLAC files and the sound is really pretty good - don't miss out, these freebies are only around for a few days each.....
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 15, 2023, 11:35:27 PMI always keep an eye out for Classic Selects weekly free downloads. This week they are interesting and well-worth hearing - 2 volumes of Adrian Boult conducting Sibleius tone poems with the LPO moonlighting as "The London Promenade Orchestra" or somesuch. Really interesting and dynamic performances yet again proving that Boult was so much more than 'just' a patrician conductor who did Elgar and the German Romantics.....
https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/sibelius-tone-poems-vol-1-adrian-boult-philharmonia-promenade-orchestra-of-london
(https://www.classicselectworld.com/cdn/shop/files/SIBELIUSTONEPOEMS.jpg?v=1696692335&width=713)
https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/sibelius-tone-poems-vol-2-patriotic-and-nature-pieces-adrian-boult-london?variant=44633470337274
(https://www.classicselectworld.com/cdn/shop/files/SIBELIUSTONEPOEMSv2.jpg?v=1697209759&width=713)
These can be downloaded as FLAC files and the sound is really pretty good - don't miss out, these freebies are only around for a few days each.....
I like Boult's Sibelius recordings.
I mentioned on the WAYLTN thread a vague dream of someone doing a decent series of Sibelius' orchestral works that wasn't so focused on the symphonies, but also wasn't BIS' approach of stuffing boxes with every sketch and alternate version.
And then I started trying to map such a series out. This is what I came up with, in a form that covered symphonies, tone poems, works for violin and orchestra and then some solo vocal works got added because they were fitting (ones originally for orchestra, not orchestrations of solo songs though if you want to squeeze them in there).
If someone did something like these 10 volumes I'd be chuffed. I'm going to try these sequences out, which in a few cases put symphonies with their original couplings. Dates might occasionally be slightly off.
Volume 1: Kullervo (1892)
Volume 2: Overture in E minor and Scene de Ballet (1891), Spring Song (1894/5), 4 Legends (Lemminkainen Suite) (1896/7)
Volume 3: The Wood Nymph (1894/5), Serenade (1894/5), The Rapids-Riders' Brides (1897) Symphony No.1 (1899/1900)
Volume 4: En Saga (1892/1902), Overture in A minor (1902), Symphony No.2 (1902/3)
Volume 5: Cassazione (1904/5), Violin Concerto (1903-5), Romance in C (1904), Pohjola's Daughter (1906)
Volume 6: Symphony No.3 (1907), The Dryad (1910), Dance-Intermezzo (1904/7), Cortege aka D-I number 2 (1905), Pan and Echo aka D-I number 3 (1906), Night Ride and Sunrise (1908)
Volume 7: Scenes Historiques 1 (1899/1911), Scenes Historiques 2 (1912), Arioso (1911), Symphony No.4 (1911)
Volume 8: Rakastava (1893-4/1911-12), In Memoriam (1909-10), 2 Serenades for violin and orchestra (1912-3), Symphony No.5 (1915-9)
Volume 9: Luonnotar (1913), The Bard (1913-4), The Oceanides (1914), Humoresques for violin and orchestra (1917-8), Symphony No.6 (1923)
Volume 10: Tapiola (1926), 3 Suites of op.98/100 (1921-2), Suite for Violin and Orchestra (1929), Andante Festivo (1922/38), Symphony No.7 (1924)
And that's my nerdy project for the evening.
Quote from: Madiel on October 28, 2023, 04:13:54 AMI mentioned on the WAYLTN thread a vague dream of someone doing a decent series of Sibelius' orchestral works that wasn't so focused on the symphonies, but also wasn't BIS' approach of stuffing boxes with every sketch and alternate version.
And then I started trying to map such a series out. This is what I came up with, in a form that covered symphonies, tone poems, works for violin and orchestra and then some solo vocal works got added because they were fitting (ones originally for orchestra, not orchestrations of solo songs though if you want to squeeze them in there).
If someone did something like these 10 volumes I'd be chuffed. I'm going to try these sequences out, which in a few cases put symphonies with their original couplings. Dates might occasionally be slightly off.
Volume 1: Kullervo (1892)
Volume 2: Overture in E minor and Scene de Ballet (1891), Spring Song (1894/5), 4 Legends (Lemminkainen Suite) (1896/7)
Volume 3: The Wood Nymph (1894/5), Serenade (1894/5), The Rapids-Riders' Brides (1897) Symphony No.1 (1899/1900)
Volume 4: En Saga (1892/1902), Overture in A minor (1902), Symphony No.2 (1902/3)
Volume 5: Cassazione (1904/5), Violin Concerto (1903-5), Romance in C (1904), Pohjola's Daughter (1906)
Volume 6: Symphony No.3 (1907), The Dryad (1910), Dance-Intermezzo (1904/7), Cortege aka D-I number 2 (1905), Pan and Echo aka D-I number 3 (1906), Night Ride and Sunrise (1908)
Volume 7: Scenes Historiques 1 (1899/1911), Scenes Historiques 2 (1912), Arioso (1911), Symphony No.4 (1911)
Volume 8: Rakastava (1893-4/1911-12), In Memoriam (1909-10), 2 Serenades for violin and orchestra (1912-3), Symphony No.5 (1915-9)
Volume 9: Luonnotar (1913), The Bard (1913-4), The Oceanides (1914), Humoresques for violin and orchestra (1917-8), Symphony No.6 (1923)
Volume 10: Tapiola (1926), 3 Suites of op.98/100 (1921-2), Suite for Violin and Orchestra (1929), Andante Festivo (1922/38), Symphony No.7 (1924)
And that's my nerdy project for the evening.
Definitely worthy of any Sibelius nerd.
🤓
My own project would be assembling every extant recording of
En Saga, and setting the finest to appropriate imagery.
Quote from: Madiel on October 28, 2023, 04:13:54 AMI mentioned on the WAYLTN thread a vague dream of someone doing a decent series of Sibelius' orchestral works that wasn't so focused on the symphonies, but also wasn't BIS' approach of stuffing boxes with every sketch and alternate version.
And then I started trying to map such a series out. This is what I came up with, in a form that covered symphonies, tone poems, works for violin and orchestra and then some solo vocal works got added because they were fitting (ones originally for orchestra, not orchestrations of solo songs though if you want to squeeze them in there).
If someone did something like these 10 volumes I'd be chuffed. I'm going to try these sequences out, which in a few cases put symphonies with their original couplings. Dates might occasionally be slightly off.
Volume 1: Kullervo (1892)
Volume 2: Overture in E minor and Scene de Ballet (1891), Spring Song (1894/5), 4 Legends (Lemminkainen Suite) (1896/7)
Volume 3: The Wood Nymph (1894/5), Serenade (1894/5), The Rapids-Riders' Brides (1897) Symphony No.1 (1899/1900)
Volume 4: En Saga (1892/1902), Overture in A minor (1902), Symphony No.2 (1902/3)
Volume 5: Cassazione (1904/5), Violin Concerto (1903-5), Romance in C (1904), Pohjola's Daughter (1906)
Volume 6: Symphony No.3 (1907), The Dryad (1910), Dance-Intermezzo (1904/7), Cortege aka D-I number 2 (1905), Pan and Echo aka D-I number 3 (1906), Night Ride and Sunrise (1908)
Volume 7: Scenes Historiques 1 (1899/1911), Scenes Historiques 2 (1912), Arioso (1911), Symphony No.4 (1911)
Volume 8: Rakastava (1893-4/1911-12), In Memoriam (1909-10), 2 Serenades for violin and orchestra (1912-3), Symphony No.5 (1915-9)
Volume 9: Luonnotar (1913), The Bard (1913-4), The Oceanides (1914), Humoresques for violin and orchestra (1917-8), Symphony No.6 (1923)
Volume 10: Tapiola (1926), 3 Suites of op.98/100 (1921-2), Suite for Violin and Orchestra (1929), Andante Festivo (1922/38), Symphony No.7 (1924)
And that's my nerdy project for the evening.
Cool project! 8) ;D
PD
Quote from: Madiel on October 28, 2023, 04:13:54 AMI mentioned on the WAYLTN thread a vague dream of someone doing a decent series of Sibelius' orchestral works that wasn't so focused on the symphonies, but also wasn't BIS' approach of stuffing boxes with every sketch and alternate version.
And then I started trying to map such a series out. This is what I came up with, in a form that covered symphonies, tone poems, works for violin and orchestra and then some solo vocal works got added because they were fitting (ones originally for orchestra, not orchestrations of solo songs though if you want to squeeze them in there).
If someone did something like these 10 volumes I'd be chuffed. I'm going to try these sequences out, which in a few cases put symphonies with their original couplings. Dates might occasionally be slightly off.
Volume 1: Kullervo (1892)
Volume 2: Overture in E minor and Scene de Ballet (1891), Spring Song (1894/5), 4 Legends (Lemminkainen Suite) (1896/7)
Volume 3: The Wood Nymph (1894/5), Serenade (1894/5), The Rapids-Riders' Brides (1897) Symphony No.1 (1899/1900)
Volume 4: En Saga (1892/1902), Overture in A minor (1902), Symphony No.2 (1902/3)
Volume 5: Cassazione (1904/5), Violin Concerto (1903-5), Romance in C (1904), Pohjola's Daughter (1906)
Volume 6: Symphony No.3 (1907), The Dryad (1910), Dance-Intermezzo (1904/7), Cortege aka D-I number 2 (1905), Pan and Echo aka D-I number 3 (1906), Night Ride and Sunrise (1908)
Volume 7: Scenes Historiques 1 (1899/1911), Scenes Historiques 2 (1912), Arioso (1911), Symphony No.4 (1911)
Volume 8: Rakastava (1893-4/1911-12), In Memoriam (1909-10), 2 Serenades for violin and orchestra (1912-3), Symphony No.5 (1915-9)
Volume 9: Luonnotar (1913), The Bard (1913-4), The Oceanides (1914), Humoresques for violin and orchestra (1917-8), Symphony No.6 (1923)
Volume 10: Tapiola (1926), 3 Suites of op.98/100 (1921-2), Suite for Violin and Orchestra (1929), Andante Festivo (1922/38), Symphony No.7 (1924)
And that's my nerdy project for the evening.
Glancing at your list, the orchestral song
The Rapids-Rider's Brides caught my attention for its cool title. I just listened to it for the first time - what an utterly magnificent work! Lasting just over 9 minutes in length, it's more of a tone poem for voice and orchestra along the lines of the later
Luonnatar, and it's prime early Sibelius in its big-boned, heroic style. It receives a magnificent performance on this disc by the commanding baritone Jorma Hynninen and the Gothenburg SO under Jorma Panula:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kuwiD2yoL._SY355_.jpg)
https://youtu.be/0Np8NNyFusU?si=gC0d8_oA-2EBpOun
Discovering works like these just goes to show how many unknown gems there are scattered throughout Sibelius' vast oeuvre!
Quote from: kyjo on October 29, 2023, 09:02:00 AMGlancing at your list, the orchestral song The Rapids-Rider's Brides caught my attention for its cool title. I just listened to it for the first time - what an utterly magnificent work! Lasting just over 9 minutes in length, it's more of a tone poem for voice and orchestra along the lines of the later Luonnatar, and it's prime early Sibelius in its big-boned, heroic style. It receives a magnificent performance on this disc by the commanding baritone Jorma Hynninen and the Gothenburg SO under Jorma Panula:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kuwiD2yoL._SY355_.jpg)
https://youtu.be/0Np8NNyFusU?si=gC0d8_oA-2EBpOun
Discovering works like these just goes to show how many unknown gems there are scattered throughout Sibelius' vast oeuvre!
;D
I haven't listened to that work in a while and don't believe that I've heard your recording. The song is fascinating though. :)
PD
Quote from: kyjo on October 29, 2023, 09:02:00 AMGlancing at your list, the orchestral song The Rapids-Rider's Brides caught my attention for its cool title. I just listened to it for the first time - what an utterly magnificent work! Lasting just over 9 minutes in length, it's more of a tone poem for voice and orchestra along the lines of the later Luonnatar, and it's prime early Sibelius in its big-boned, heroic style. It receives a magnificent performance on this disc by the commanding baritone Jorma Hynninen and the Gothenburg SO under Jorma Panula:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71kuwiD2yoL._SY355_.jpg)
https://youtu.be/0Np8NNyFusU?si=gC0d8_oA-2EBpOun
Discovering works like these just goes to show how many unknown gems there are scattered throughout Sibelius' vast oeuvre!
Yes, that is absolutely one of the works that is an unknown gem, I love it. I completely agree with your thoughts on it.
The only bad thing about it is trying to remember where the apostrophe goes. The rapids are plural, and so are the brides, but I struggle to remember whether it's one rider or many...
Quote from: Madiel on October 29, 2023, 02:00:41 PMYes, that is absolutely one of the works that is an unknown gem, I love it. I completely agree with your thoughts on it.
The only bad thing about it is trying to remember where the apostrophe goes. The rapids are plural, and so are the brides, but I struggle to remember whether it's one rider or many...
Adding to the love for this disc - and indeed many/most/all of those early BIS releases; so
many discoveries (not just Sibelius) and you pretty much knew the recordings would be demonstration quality and the performances authentic and skilled. From that time in the early years of CD when the industry was buoyant and able to churn out so many discs of wonderful music from the periphery of the standard repertoire. The only problem I had was no money - so having to choose between all these treasures was a pleasurable conundrum. (The BIS WARNING!! on the CD cover just added to their aura!)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 30, 2023, 11:50:33 PMAdding to the love for this disc - and indeed many/most/all of those early BIS releases; so many discoveries (not just Sibelius) and you pretty much knew the recordings would be demonstration quality and the performances authentic and skilled. From that time in the early years of CD when the industry was buoyant and able to churn out so many discs of wonderful music from the periphery of the standard repertoire. The only problem I had was no money - so having to choose between all these treasures was a pleasurable conundrum. (The BIS WARNING!! on the CD cover just added to their aura!)
What does the warning say? It's too small for me to read. Is it saying "Warning: you're likely to spend a lot more of your money on other recordings if you listen to this music"?
Quote from: relm1 on October 31, 2023, 06:01:30 AMWhat does the warning say? It's too small for me to read. Is it saying "Warning: you're likely to spend a lot more of your money on other recordings if you listen to this music"?
See the first paragraph here: https://musicweb-international.com/classrev//2009/Jan09/Sibelius_biscd191517.htm
PD
Quote from: relm1 on October 31, 2023, 06:01:30 AMWhat does the warning say? It's too small for me to read. Is it saying "Warning: you're likely to spend a lot more of your money on other recordings if you listen to this music"?
Along the lines of high dynamic range can damage speakers.
Remember when Telarc released that recording of the 1812 Overture with those very "prominent" canon booms?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 31, 2023, 06:07:27 AMSee the first paragraph here: https://musicweb-international.com/classrev//2009/Jan09/Sibelius_biscd191517.htm
PD
403 Forbidden...
Quote from: krummholz on November 01, 2023, 09:29:22 AM403 Forbidden...
The clickable link is broken. Copy and paste the full url, or try this link. (https://musicweb-international.com/classrev//2009/Jan09/Sibelius_biscd191517.htm)
The problem is an extra slash in the middle of the URL.
Further adding to the evidence that there are so many hidden gems in Sibelius' catalogue are the early (mostly late-1880s) works for piano trio contained on this disc:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61SwXcFMchL._SY355_.jpg)
The music contained on this disc completely exceeded my expectations! It contains unmistakable premonitions of the mature Sibelius and has freshness, wit, and memorability in spades. There's two Piano Trios contained here - the Loviisa in C major and the Korpo in D major. The latter is particularly remarkable for its strikingly imaginative and substantial (15 min.) Fantasia slow movement and its delightfully folksy finale. There are numerous shorter works for piano trio contained on the album as well, the most notable of which are the the strikingly dramatic and harmonically adventurous Allegro in D minor and the humorous, even bizarre Alla marcia in C major. Really, this disc is a must for all Sibelians, and the performances are excellent to boot! I look forward to exploring more of his early chamber output.
OH, MY!
The (very young) Chapel-Hill radio announcer just commented on the Swedish composer Sibelius's piece they played ...
Watches for 71 dB to have a gran mal seizure ... ;D
Well, Swedish-speaking...
Quote from: Madiel on December 12, 2023, 12:52:38 AMWell, Swedish-speaking...
and you think the announcer was aware of that nuanced difference....... :)
Quote from: Madiel on December 12, 2023, 12:52:38 AMWell, Swedish-speaking...
Time to listen to Kullervo bork bork bork!!
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ffoodista.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Ffeatured%2Fpublic%2Ffield%2Fimage%2Fswedish%2520chef.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=b3430d911b0fd4356f096782f21154e8e3360d368c192e18397357853ac8f879&ipo=images)
Quote from: Scion7 on December 12, 2023, 12:48:52 AMOH, MY!
The (very young) Chapel-Hill radio announcer just commented on the Swedish composer Sibelius's piece they played ...
Watches for 71 dB to have a gran mal seizure ... ;D
Atterberg, Sibelius... same thing right? :'(
Quote from: Scion7 on December 12, 2023, 12:48:52 AMOH, MY!
The (very young) Chapel-Hill radio announcer just commented on the Swedish composer Sibelius's piece they played ...
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 12, 2023, 07:16:24 AMand you think the announcer was aware of that nuanced difference....... :)
I don't think so! :(
PD
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 12, 2023, 07:16:24 AMand you think the announcer was aware of that nuanced difference....... :)
Did I say that?
Ibland är det skönt att tänka det bästa om människor.
Quote from: Madiel on December 12, 2023, 12:00:09 PMDid I say that?
Ibland är det skönt att tänka det bästa om människor.
I wonder if the young host was working at a college radio station? In any event, I suspect that he/she has probably already found out they were wrong (by either a supervisor, friend, listeners, etc.). Hopefully, they'll keep on listening to music and wanting/trying to learn and grow. Heck, to be fair, we've all made mistakes (and I know that I'm not too old to keep on making them--as in I'm still alive; at least I think so....others might disagree).
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 12, 2023, 12:24:54 PMI wonder if the young host was working at a college radio station?
PD
Many moons ago, from a college radio station which played classical music, I heard the announcer say:
"And now, the
Symphony #2, by
Gene Cybil Leeus." :o ??? :D
Is there a good biography/life-and-works type book of Sibelius out there?
I had my eye on the one by Andrew Barnett but I don't THINK I've actually read it...
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 12, 2023, 05:43:19 PMIs there a good biography/life-and-works type book of Sibelius out there?
I have these - I greatly enjoy the man's work but am not a fanatic and have not poured over these tomes in the same manner I would for, say, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, etc. One day I suppose I need to spend a week and read them cover to cover. ;D
Sibelius - Andrew Barnett
Sibelius: A Composers Life and the Awakening of Finland - Glenda Goss
Sibelius: Illustrated Lives of the Great Composers - David Burnett-James
Sibelius - Robert Layton
There is the
New Grove entry on him, of course - fairly extensive.
I wish that R.A. Leonard had done a whole chapter on Sibelius in his authoritative book,
The Stream of Music, but we just have his short entry:
Quote from: Scion7 on December 12, 2023, 07:44:52 PMI have these - I greatly enjoy the man's work but am not a fanatic and have not poured over these tomes in the same manner I would for, say, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, etc. One day I suppose I need to spend a week and read them cover to cover. ;D
Sibelius - Andrew Barnett
Sibelius: A Composers Life and the Awakening of Finland - Glenda Goss
Sibelius: Illustrated Lives of the Great Composers - David Burnett-James
Sibelius - Robert Layton
There is the New Grove entry on him, of course - fairly extensive.
I wish that R.A. Leonard had done a whole chapter on Sibelius in his authoritative book, The Stream of Music, but we just have his short entry:
Thanks!
For some reason I had never properly paid attention to Sibelius' The Tempest. Listening to the two suites on the Ondine recording (Segerstam and the Helsinki P.O.) I realized I was missing a masterpiece. This is top-drawer Sibelius, and very different from his symphonies; here the use of the orchestra is a little more adventurous and a tad of aggressiveness is added, but the music is not devoid of totally beautiful and subdued moments, where Berceuse from the First Suite has rapturing gorgeousness, it's one of the purest music I've heard from him. That First Suite sounded much more interesting than the Second one, where each number had really strong ideas. The next step will be to listen to the complete incidental music.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 11, 2024, 06:57:52 PMFor some reason I had never properly paid attention to Sibelius' The Tempest. Listening to the two suites on the Ondine recording (Segerstam and the Helsinki P.O.) I realized I was missing a masterpiece. This is top-drawer Sibelius, and very different from his symphonies; here the use of the orchestra is a little more adventurous and a tad of aggressiveness is added, but the music is not devoid of totally beautiful and subdued moments, where Berceuse from the First Suite has rapturing gorgeousness, it's one of the purest music I've heard from him. That First Suite sounded much more interesting than the Second one, where each number had really strong ideas. The next step will be to listen to the complete incidental music.
Oh yes, the two suites from
The Tempest contain some of Sibelius' finest and most individual music. It's definitely his most interesting score of incidental music IMO, though I very much like the
Swanwhite suite as well. I don't recall the First Suite from
The Tempest being significantly more inspired than the second one, after all the latter contains the hauntingly beautiful movement titled
Miranda.
IIRC, The Tempest is also the one case where there's quite a lot of difference between the suites and the complete score.
Quote from: kyjo on May 12, 2024, 10:06:48 AMOh yes, the two suites from The Tempest contain some of Sibelius' finest and most individual music. It's definitely his most interesting score of incidental music IMO, though I very much like the Swanwhite suite as well. I don't recall the First Suite from The Tempest being significantly more inspired than the second one, after all the latter contains the hauntingly beautiful movement titled Miranda.
King Christian II and
Belshazzar's Feast have great music as well.
It was curious to notice the differences between the two suites of
The Tempest given that they belong to the same work, but yes, the First Suite has the best music overall methinks. In the Second Suite, the numbers
Intermezzo,
Song I and
II were a little anonymous to me.
His string quartets opp. 4 and 56 have been some phenomenal revelations I've heard lately. Previously I was more familiar with the Voces intimae quartet and on revisiting it today struck me like an extraordinary composition with the composer's hallmarks. That central Adagio di molto is the heart of the piece, a genuinely profound slow movement. I think that the whole piece is his supreme chamber work, no other chamber composition of his reaches the greatness it possesses. However, it was the String Quartet in B-flat major, op. 4 (1889-90) that gave me the most special surprise since I don't recall hearing it before, it was a very fresh listen. This thoroughly charming work has to be one of the most idyllic, lovely, endearing, life-affirming works in the whole literature, and even being an early piece, a few gestures seem to foreshadow the distinctive ideas to come. Each of its 4 movements ooze good vibes and light, hence it may lack a little of drama to allow more contrast, but it is undeniable that it is simply gorgeous. A winner in my book.
Another interesting detail I noticed on hearing this recording of his 4 complete string quartets (the day before yesterday I gave a listen to the first two quartets) is the clear progression from one quartet to the next, the refinement and the inspiration improve from one to another.
The first three quartets are played by the Sibelius Academy Quartet and the Voces intimae by the New Helsinki Quartet. When one listens to these works played with such conviction and like if these players had the music in their bloods, their impact really gets you.
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/825646662999.jpg)
I don't think I knew there was a release that packaged them all together.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 11, 2024, 06:57:52 PMThe next step will be to listen to the complete incidental music.
There are three fabulous recordings of the complete
Tempest to choose from. I'm not sure which one I'd recommend over the other since I love each of them, but here they are:
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music124/v4/de/cb/71/decb7180-9f35-2dff-bbfa-b8bb4daf475b/mzi.lvadfwtu.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music116/v4/d9/7c/79/d97c79f6-9490-bc74-69b6-9f686621095f/7318590005811.png/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music112/v4/f9/cd/6c/f9cd6c1b-b421-46cc-d50a-da4c188360f2/0747313441976.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)
Quote from: Madiel on May 15, 2024, 06:31:20 PMI don't think I knew there was a release that packaged them all together.
Aside from the set that
@Symphonic Addict mentioned, this set has all of the SQs under one roof:
(https://i.discogs.com/oZzEs68Ck35qrLhwO-NR-bs6JdFIvoQ3VL9q7oMMkrg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:506/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTExMDEy/MTQ4LTE1MDgyMDUw/ODgtNjkxMC5qcGVn.jpeg)
(https://i.discogs.com/NhcMMs7mgoRacmN2_u7MJLBc4QumPuItSHn6rkGfxPs/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:506/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTExMDEy/MTQ4LTE1MDgyMDUx/MDEtOTUxMi5qcGVn.jpeg)
I bought this set, which is OOP years ago, but I don't remember the performances. I should revisit it at some point. Aside from this set, I also own the recordings with the Tempera Quartet, which were a part of
The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which I acquired years ago.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2024, 08:45:25 PMThere are three fabulous recordings of the complete Tempest to choose from. I'm not sure which one I'd recommend over the other since I love each of them, but here they are:
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music124/v4/de/cb/71/decb7180-9f35-2dff-bbfa-b8bb4daf475b/mzi.lvadfwtu.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music116/v4/d9/7c/79/d97c79f6-9490-bc74-69b6-9f686621095f/7318590005811.png/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music112/v4/f9/cd/6c/f9cd6c1b-b421-46cc-d50a-da4c188360f2/0747313441976.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)
The BIS recording is the one I have. Not sure when I'll give it a listen (not for now), but I do plan to listen to the whole piece in the near future.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2024, 08:45:25 PMThere are three fabulous recordings of the complete Tempest to choose from. I'm not sure which one I'd recommend over the other since I love each of them, but here they are:
(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music124/v4/de/cb/71/decb7180-9f35-2dff-bbfa-b8bb4daf475b/mzi.lvadfwtu.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music116/v4/d9/7c/79/d97c79f6-9490-bc74-69b6-9f686621095f/7318590005811.png/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music112/v4/f9/cd/6c/f9cd6c1b-b421-46cc-d50a-da4c188360f2/0747313441976.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)
I really like the middle one which is the complete incidental music.
Is there a version of the Fourth Symphony that really emphasizes the dissonances? I'm looking for a very modernist version to sample.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 20, 2024, 11:14:29 PMI really like the middle one which is the complete incidental music.
Very nice, but, actually, all three discs are the complete music for
The Tempest. I haven't done any side-by-side comparisons, but the Kamu on Naxos is the most complete one of the three.
Quote from: Skogwald on May 21, 2024, 05:19:33 AMIs there a version of the Fourth Symphony that really emphasizes the dissonances? I'm looking for a very modernist version to sample.
Osmo Vänskä's recording with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra on BIS is a rather modernist view of the work. All three of Paavo Berglund's accounts will also fit the bill nicely. Colin Davis' first go around with the Boston Symphony Orchestra on Philips is also worth looking into.
Quote from: Skogwald on May 21, 2024, 05:19:33 AMIs there a version of the Fourth Symphony that really emphasizes the dissonances? I'm looking for a very modernist version to sample.
Vanska I is modernist, and II takes it to the breaking point.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/minnesota-orchestral/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1080,w_1080/f_auto/q_auto/v1631567255/Uploads/Shop/Recordings/sibelius1-4?_a=AAClqEz)
But so far that you might regret the listen! It is an acquired taste. I had to acquire it, but I have now.
Quote from: DavidW on May 21, 2024, 06:13:38 AMVanska I is modernist, and II takes it to the breaking point.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/minnesota-orchestral/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1080,w_1080/f_auto/q_auto/v1631567255/Uploads/Shop/Recordings/sibelius1-4?_a=AAClqEz)
But so far that you might regret the listen! It is an acquired taste. I had to acquire it, but I have now.
I should revisit Vänskä's Minnesota cycle. It is excellent and rather different than his earlier one with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra. His view of Sibelius is certainly that of a modernist, which is a completely valid viewpoint.
Quote from: DavidW on May 21, 2024, 06:13:38 AMVanska I is modernist, and II takes it to the breaking point.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/minnesota-orchestral/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1080,w_1080/f_auto/q_auto/v1631567255/Uploads/Shop/Recordings/sibelius1-4?_a=AAClqEz)
But so far that you might regret the listen! It is an acquired taste. I had to acquire it, but I have now.
I have been revisiting the forth symphony, which doesn't come as naturally to me as the other mature Sibelius symphonies. In Vanska/Minnesota I was totally lost. It started with the first movement, where he is very slow, and seems to want to make the music unravel. My view is that the music has a lot of unnerving transitions and the challenge is to hold it together, not make it fall apart.
In the aftermath I listened to two favorite recordings, Karajan's Berlin recording on DG, and now Barbirolli's Halle recording (both from the 1960's). In both of these the music really came together for me. I remain curios about Karajan's 1953 Philharmonia recording, and may see if I can find time for it without experience Sibelius overload.
(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)
@Spotted Horses you may want to try Segerstam's 4th with the Helsinki PO on Ondine. Also, I've always liked the Colin Davis/BSO on Philips account as well. Other favorites: Berglund/Bournemouth SO, Vänskä/Lahti SO, and HvK/Berliner (DG).
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 16, 2024, 08:05:48 PM@Spotted Horses you may want to try Segerstam's 4th with the Helsinki PO on Ondine. Also, I've always liked the Colin Davis/BSO on Philips account as well. Other favorites: Berglund/Bournemouth SO, Vänskä/Lahti SO, and HvK/Berliner (DG).
It turns out I have all of those recordings, although I have not listened to the Segerstam or Colin Davis yet. I'm thinking of listening to Maazel/Pittsburgh before I call my Sibelius 4 listening complete for now.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 16, 2024, 07:56:41 AM(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)
I think this possibly Andrew Achenbach review? Yes, not particularly complimentary but he does finish off with " bloody-minded determination which makes for oddly moving listening, warts and all".
I've always loved the fourth, I have the Ashkenazy set and I think it suits him well.
I've always liked the fourth and over a period of time have compiled a long list of timings. It turns out that Vanska/Minnessota is absolutely the slowest 1st movement on record that I know of, although overall his earlier recording with the Lahti SO is over a minute slower, much of the difference being in the crucial 3rd movement.
Here are a few selected timings including those recordings recently mentioned, plus a couple of my own favourites, plus the extremes at either end - total durations vary from 32.29 to 41.21, quite a range. (Any applause (eg Elder) not counted.) I hate to admit it but my own favourite is probably Bernstein.
Ashzenazy Philh 9.55 4.37 9.21 9.14 33.07
Ashkenazy Stockholm 8.56 5.04 8.50 9.36 32.26
Barbirolli 9.56 4.47 11.08 10.28 36.19
Berglund BSO 10.50 4.48 11.17 10.30 37.25
Bernstein CBS 11.10 5.19 11.15 11.32 39.16
Davis LSO lIve 11.42 4.58 12.42 9.21 38.43
Ehrling 10.56 4.20 10.22 8.36 34.14
Elder 11:44 5:09 12:47 11:41 41.21
Karajan DG 10.01 4.46 12.00 9.30 36.17
Karajan Warner 10.37 5.26 12.55 10.15 39.13
Maazel Decca 10.11 4.01 9.03 9.14 32.29
Nézet-Séguin 10.41 5.04 11.51 10.31 38.07
Rattle CBSO 10.53 4.47 11.45 10.15 37.40
Rouvali 11.07 4.49 10.55 10.02 36.53
Segerstam HPO 11.13 4.54 11.25 10.27 37.59
Segerstam DNSO 11.18 5.05 12.24 11.10 39.57
Vanska Minnesota 12.02 4.26 13.13 9.19 39.00
Vanska Lahti 11.40 4.38 14.06 9.41 40.05
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 16, 2024, 11:23:59 PMIt turns out I have all of those recordings, although I have not listened to the Segerstam or Colin Davis yet. I'm thinking of listening to Maazel/Pittsburgh before I call my Sibelius 4 listening complete for now.
Do let me know what you think of the Maazel/Pittsburgh --- that is one Sibelius symphony cycle I don't own. I like Maazel's earlier cycle with the Wiener Philharmoniker on Decca quite a bit.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 17, 2024, 08:16:33 AMDo let me know what you think of the Maazel/Pittsburgh --- that is one Sibelius symphony cycle I don't own. I like Maazel's earlier cycle with the Wiener Philharmoniker on Decca quite a bit.
Maazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 17, 2024, 08:33:28 AMMaazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.
I'll probably never get around to acquiring that Maazel/Pittsburgh cycle since I feel I've just go too many at this juncture. The only Sibelius recordings I've been buying are the Rouvali on Alpha and this is because I've been buying his series from the start and I definitely want to finish. One of my biggest Sibelius purchase regrets was the Mäkelä cycle. Completely overrated, IMHO.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 17, 2024, 09:35:40 AMI'll probably never get around to acquiring that Maazel/Pittsburgh cycle since I feel I've just go too many at this juncture. The only Sibelius recordings I've been buying are the Rouvali on Alpha and this is because I've been buying his series from the start and I definitely want to finish. One of my biggest Sibelius purchase regrets was the Mäkelä cycle. Completely overrated, IMHO.
Well, certainly not overrated by David Hurwitz! ;D
Quote from: kyjo on June 17, 2024, 10:17:29 AMWell, certainly not overrated by David Hurwitz! ;D
Yeah, I recall his dislike of Mäkelä, but I think his opinion is just a bridge too far for me. The amount of vehemence that spews from his mouth about this conductor is a bit sickening and obsessive.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 17, 2024, 08:33:28 AMMaazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release. They also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.
I'm not sure about the Sibelius (which I have but cannot remember the technical spec and the box is not to hand....) but the Respighi is excellent and was when Sony were experimenting with a single microphone array strung 10 feet above and beind the conductor's head. The result is excellent.
EDIT: just read this in an Amazon review of this set "Recorded by Steve Epstein and his team using a pair of omni-directional microphones in an advanced form of "Mercury Living Presence" set-up, the Pittsburgh recordings were superb when they were released, with their natural balance, detailed sound picture and wide dynamics being universally praised. The 24 Bit enhancement has transformed these already fine recordings into "state of the art "-compression has been lifted, " digital edge " softened, dynamics widened even more and the tiniest detail revealed."
I enjoy this set - its quite objective - not craggy like Berglund in Bournemouth (which I love). Emotionally quite cool and direct but it does sound very good indeed. But a set that is never used for comparisons it seems.....
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 17, 2024, 10:30:09 AMYeah, I recall his dislike of Mäkelä, but I think his opinion is just a bridge too far for me. The amount of vehemence that spews from his mouth about this conductor is a bit sickening and obsessive.
That level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism. Cheap shots rarely make criticsm sound measured or balanced.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 17, 2024, 11:03:37 AMThat level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism. Cheap shots rarely make criticism sound measured or balanced.
Absolutely. When he calls him "Ken Doll", I just roll my eyes. There's no need in insulting someone just because you don't like their conducting. Stick to reviewing the music or performance and leave the ad homs at the doorstep.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 17, 2024, 11:03:37 AMThat level of invective does rather dilute any sense of objective criticism. Cheap shots rarely make criticsm sound measured or balanced.
I was almost developing a tolerance for Hurwitz (I watched part of video about Bach's Brandenburg Concerti recordings) until I stumbled on a video called "three composers we can do without," or something like that. Just obnoxious.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 17, 2024, 08:33:28 AMMaazel/Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cycles overall. I've had it since it was a new release.
Someone recommended the 3rd from that one as the best, partly because everyone else supposedly was too slow in the middle movement. I got that single disc but I not enough of a Sibelian (especially not with respect to the strange, almost "neoclassical" 3rd) to evaluate if that flowing middle movement is better than slower ones.
QuoteThey also did a very nice recording of Respighi's Roman Trilogy.
We should not hold that against them... ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2024, 11:13:44 AMSomeone recommended the 3rd from that one as the best, partly because everyone else supposedly was too slow in the middle movement. I got that single disc but I not enough of a Sibelian (especially not with respect to the strange, almost "neoclassical" 3rd) to evaluate if that flowing middle movement is better than slower ones.
That could have been me. I was sold on the third by Maazel's recording and recall praising it here.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 16, 2024, 07:56:41 AMI have been revisiting the forth symphony, which doesn't come as naturally to me as the other mature Sibelius symphonies. In Vanska/Minnesota I was totally lost. It started with the first movement, where he is very slow, and seems to want to make the music unravel. My view is that the music has a lot of unnerving transitions and the challenge is to hold it together, not make it fall apart.
In the aftermath I listened to two favorite recordings, Karajan's Berlin recording on DG, and now Barbirolli's Halle recording (both from the 1960's). In both of these the music really came together for me. I remain curios about Karajan's 1953 Philharmonia recording, and may see if I can find time for it without experience Sibelius overload.
(And just poking around, looking for the recording date of Barbirolli's Sibelius I came across a Grammophone review in which some pompous ass carries on about how dreadful Barbirolli's Sibelius is. Who reads that crap?)
I love both Karajan and Barbirolli! I heard the same thing with fragmentation and lack of narrative flow in the Vanska Mahler 2 which I listened to a few days ago.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 17, 2024, 11:07:26 AMAbsolutely. When he calls him "Ken Doll", I just roll my eyes. There's no need in insulting someone just because you don't like their conducting. Stick to reviewing the music or performance and leave the ad homs at the doorstep.
A term used in football (soccer) parlance 'play the ball not the man'.
Quote from: Irons on June 20, 2024, 06:07:18 AMA term used in football (soccer) parlance 'play the ball not the man'.
I still think it's derogatory, but also just unnecessary. I haven't been impressed with Mäkelä, but I wouldn't resort to the amount of vehemence that Hurwitz has used.
Quote from: Irons on June 20, 2024, 06:07:18 AMA term used in football (soccer) parlance 'play the ball not the man'.
unless you're Vinny Jones when you play the man
through the ball...... or balls
(https://i.huffpost.com/gen/1500510/thumbs/o-PAUL-GASCOIGNE-VINNIE-JONES-570.jpg?6)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91XlcEvP59L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Just finished listening to the Mäkelä set today. His Sibelius is quite fiery and passionate, sometimes relying on interventionist twists for effect (very slight note value or tempo changes within phrases can create a startling difference, as in 1:I or 5:III). Accents are used to provide sharper attack on some notes, to excellent effect (mushy attacks are the bane of good Sibelius conducting). Big, noble utterances are slightly pulled on long note values, making them sound lusher but also extra yearning and impassioned. I'm not sure the music needs the help, but better this than a too clinical approach.
The sound is what makes the most difference overall: very detailed but also quite close, achieving maximum clarity and impact. No concert hall distance blending orchestral sections. It's all up front and close, but not oppressively so. Quite magnificent I'd say, the only inconvenient being that some passages lack mystery, which is a bit detrimental to the last 2 symphonies. The 6th acquires startling power and immediacy from the get go, the introduction of I losing its usual misty dawn atmosphere. The 7th is slightly beefy and unsubtle in the first section, although the trombones are heard with impressive weight and the double basses sound absolutely HUGE.
1: a real winner, one of the best performances I've heard, passionate and refulgent. Just under Stokowski (unmatched) and von Garaguly, on a par with Sargeant and ahead of the excellent Ormandy, Barbirolli, Davis Boston.
2: a very good conception, if slightly lacking in tension. Barbirolli RPO and Szell Cleveland (live) reign supreme here. Szell Concertgebouw, Monteux LSO, Ormandy Sony are a bit more impassioned than Mäkelä, but the sound is not as fine.
3: another winner. Mäkelä gives this underrated work the stature, drive and passionate advocacy it deserves. The first movement with its galloping string figurations (shades of the finale of Schubert's 9th) is taken with gusto by the Oslo Phil strings. Best ever: Rozhdestvensky's exhilarating, punchy interpretation, with tangy winds and viciously scurrying strings. Then Mäkelä.
4: the sound here serves the conductor's conception well. Mäkelä presents it almost as a concerto for orchestra, each movement sharply lit, double basses and low winds baleful and menacing. The glockenspiel otoh is hardly noticeable. Considering the kind of sound balance favoured by the conductor/sound engineers, I would think this is intentional. Excellent in its chosen way, but I prefer the über dramatic Ormandy (1954 mono), the gaunt, implacable Karajan Berlin (EMI) or Vänskä Lahti on BIS.
5: the 3rd winner in the set. Conducting, playing and sound fit the music perfectly here. The coda of I is jaw-dropping in its power, subtly helped by an unmarked accelerando - I normally don't like a fast coda here, but this is so well prepared it sounds totally organic. At that point I was air conducting like a dutch windmill. The last movement also builds up to a triumphant, implacable conclusion. Closure is of the essence here. Some conductors seem not to know what to do with the last crescendo and the closing chords. They sometimes sound like question marks. Here they properly sound like confidently nailed exclamation marks. Favourites: Rozhdestvensky (the baleful sections truly scary), Mäkelä, Ole Schmidt, Karajan Berlin (EMI), Sargent, Davis Boston.
6: this cinderella among Sibelius' symphonies is often made to sound sunny, gentle, affectionate and playful (Karajan DG is perfect in that respect). Not so here. Like Rozhdestvensky, Mäkelä highlights the many undercurrents of doubt, unquiet and restlessness that traverse the work. It's like exploring a dark cave gleaming with myriad colours and shadows under a torch. This is an unsentimental, powerful account of the symphony, with a few surprisingly potent orchestral outbursts. The 6th is an elusive work, its character and qualities harder to discern than the other symphonies. Mäkelä tackles it head on and surprises me with its forthrightness and objectivity. For this symphony I have no clear favourite, but Karajan DG, Davis Boston, Rozhdestvensky, Mäkelä and Vänskä Lahti all impress in their chosen way.
7: possibly my favourite among the Sibelius symphonies. That one, too, is elusive and presents a constantly shifting perspective. Although in a single movement, it is clearly divided in sections. The banding on this Decca disc is in 4 tracks. Once again Mäkelä puts forth big-boned, frankly lit orchestral textures, with clear distinction between sections. The strings are strong, producing a full, deep, almost saturated sound (the very first phrase). Trombones are menacing, bright on top and deep at the bottom. The Valse triste quotation at the end is almost sinister, not wistful at all. Sometimes I had the impression I was listening to The Firebird. A very interesting interpretation. The conductor clearly thinks highly of the work, declaring in the notes it's 'the most perfect' of the lot. Here, too, no clear favourite emerges, but the 1965 Munch BSO is mandatory listening (easily found on Youtube). Uncharacteristically for this conductor the timing is on the slow side (24 mins to Mäkelä's 23 or Szell's 19), but sounds like molten lava sweeping all before it.
EDIT: Tapiola is also in this set. I've listened to it twice and am not sure what to think of the interpretation. I don't have as many points of comparison either. In this recording the big moments are very big indeed, with a frightening storm sequence and a menacing coda where the orchestra sounds like they have 40 double basses and 25 bassoons on hand - it almost sounds like they imported an organ to underpin the rest of the orchestra.
Interesting commentary, thank you. I haven't listened to this set, but this makes me more interested in trying it and seeing what I think.
I'm on holiday for a week in Norfolk and, for the first time ever, I've encountered an 'Alexa' device in the converted barn where we are staying. Today I asked Alexa to play Sibelius's 2nd Symphony and am currently listening to an enjoyable performance conducted by Ashkenazy.
Quote from: André on August 21, 2024, 10:58:14 AMJust finished listening to the Mäkelä set today...
Thanks for your review.
My references for the Sibelius Symphonies are Karajan, Barbirolli, Maazel (Pittsburgh), Berglund (Bournemouth), Neeme Jarvi (BIS) and Blomstedt. I was anticipating listening to one of the more recent cycles and was thinking it would be Vanska/Minnesota. Maybe it should be Mäkelä.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2024, 11:04:17 PMI'm on holiday for a week in Norfolk and, for the first time ever, I've encountered an 'Alexa' device in the converted barn where we are staying. Today I asked Alexa to play Sibelius's 2nd Symphony and am currently listening to an enjoyable performance conducted by Ashkenazy.
I
think literally one of Ashkenazy's very first recordings he made as a conductor for Decca. Perhaps the Tchaikovsky symphonies were first but this followed pretty much straight afterwards..... very good early digital sound as I recall as well.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 21, 2024, 11:04:17 PMI'm on holiday for a week in Norfolk and, for the first time ever, I've encountered an 'Alexa' device in the converted barn where we are staying. Today I asked Alexa to play Sibelius's 2nd Symphony and am currently listening to an enjoyable performance conducted by Ashkenazy.
8) Magic! :o
Picking up a tin of Colman's? :)
PD
Anyone else sense Tod und Verklärung energy in the 7th Symphony? Especially the big trombone sections in C major.
No, but I do sense Tod und Verklärung energy in some of his tone poems, particularly Pohjola's daughter.
Saw a writer last week who alluded to the "Valse triste quotation" at the end of Symphony No. 7. (It might have been a MusicWeb writer, but I can't really remember.)
Do we know if there is really an intentional quote there? Or is it a mere passing resemblance?
Quote from: Brian on August 26, 2024, 06:22:46 AMSaw a writer last week who alluded to the "Valse triste quotation" at the end of Symphony No. 7. (It might have been a MusicWeb writer, but I can't really remember.)
Do we know if there is really an intentional quote there? Or is it a mere passing resemblance?
The déjà-vu feeling is striking. It's the same chord progression as the main theme of Valse triste and it appears to be entirely intentional, with a strong overlay of psychological implications. That is, if one is to believe Sibelius scholar William Pavlak in his thesis on the 7th symphony: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc4495/m2/1/high_res_d/thesis.pdf . The author discusses the Valse triste quotation at some length (starting at page 261).
Sibelius's musical language was totally personal and original, never derivative of anyone else's. It's almost impossible he'd have had a slip like Strauss' quotation of Bruch's g minor concerto in his Alpensinfonie. IOW if it sounds like VT, it's because the composer intended it to be there.
Quote from: Brian on August 26, 2024, 06:22:46 AMSaw a writer last week who alluded to the "Valse triste quotation" at the end of Symphony No. 7. (It might have been a MusicWeb writer, but I can't really remember.)
Hey, it's our own Andre here! See post #3361 in this very thread. :laugh:
Oops! Scrolling up is so hard :P Thank you
@André - leafing through that thesis now. And you have also given me an excuse to re-listen to the Alpensinfonie, which is not such a bad thing...
Quote from: André on August 21, 2024, 10:58:14 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91XlcEvP59L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Just finished listening to the Mäkelä set today. His Sibelius is quite fiery and passionate, sometimes relying on interventionist twists for effect (very slight note value or tempo changes within phrases can create a startling difference, as in 1:I or 5:III). Accents are used to provide sharper attack on some notes, to excellent effect (mushy attacks are the bane of good Sibelius conducting). Big, noble utterances are slightly pulled on long note values, making them sound lusher but also extra yearning and impassioned. I'm not sure the music needs the help, but better this than a too clinical approach. (etc.)
But Hurwitz says this set is terrible! Hurwitz, mind you! The Great Critic who knows a Ken Doll when he sees one and pays attention only to the musical facts of the recording! Surely if Hurwitz says a conductor is lacking in cojones he cannot possibly be wrong! :laugh:
Hurwitz is almost always right when he likes a composer or a recording . It's when he hates something that he's generally wrong.
Quote from: André on August 28, 2024, 01:57:04 PMHurwitz is almost always right when he likes a composer or a recording . It's when he hates something that he's generally wrong.
Agreed!
Quote from: André on August 28, 2024, 01:57:04 PMHurwitz is almost always right when he likes a composer or a recording . It's when he hates something that he's generally wrong.
Somewhat off-topic, but when he likes a composer/recording and I find him to be wrong, it's because he liked an hour-plus obscure late romantic symphony that calls for a gigantic orchestra with five percussionists and only one melody. ;D
Quote from: Brian on August 29, 2024, 06:22:40 AMSomewhat off-topic, but when he likes a composer/recording and I find him to be wrong, it's because he liked an hour-plus obscure late romantic symphony that calls for a gigantic orchestra with five percussionists and only one melody. ;D
Only one, but infinite... ;D
Quote from: André on August 28, 2024, 01:57:04 PMHurwitz is almost always right when he likes a composer or a recording . It's when he hates something that he's generally wrong.
No, Hurwitz likes a lot of what I consider crap. Revels in it, in fact.
I myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 06:59:29 AMI myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.
I mean, he also has excoriated Vanska II as indulgent and heavily mannered despite being a spiritual successor to Vanska I (one of Hurwitz's cycles) with slightly better sonics. Hurwitz lacks nuance, and he tends to love or hate without reflection. Many don't enjoy Vanska II, but few would describe it as an unmitigated disaster.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 06:59:29 AMI myself, before I was told the Mäkelä set was garbage conducted by a Ken Doll whose only virtues were his good looks, purchased the recordings and found them excellent. Hurwitz goes on and on, for example, about how Mäkelä blows the last two chords of #5 (the last two notes are not chords, BTW, but unisons, but let's not be pedantic). But all that Mäkelä does in fact is to give longer values to the grace notes in the timpani part as written in the score.
Indeed. I've heard other conductors do that with the timpani part for emphasis. The last chords of Bruckner's 8th symphony are famous for almost never being played the same way.
That's what a conductor is supposed to do: not just play the music, but interpret some of its sonic manifestations (tempo markings, accents, pauses, note values etc) as well as give shape to music paragraphs by adjusting balances between sections.
Opinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.
Quote from: Madiel on August 29, 2024, 01:56:02 PMOpinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.
Ravel should have known better than to expect perfection in
any musical endeavor. Perhaps he felt his musicians were not sufficiently focused on the task at hand, and was trying to motivate them... but there are better ways.
Quote from: LKB on August 30, 2024, 07:22:57 AMRavel should have known better than to expect perfection in any musical endeavor. Perhaps he felt his musicians were not sufficiently focused on the task at hand, and was trying to motivate them... but there are better ways.
Whether he was wise or not, the point is I don't think he would have accepted as self-evident that the job of a conductor was "interpretation".
Hang on, I'll pop over to the Great Beyond one sec, let him know...
We're in a thread about a dead man. While you're there, you should check how he wanted his own music handled.
Who is interesting to listen to apart from Glenn Gould for the sonatinas op 64?
Am I right to think that op 64 is peak Sibelius piano music.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 05, 2024, 01:18:59 PMAm I right to think that op 64 is peak Sibelius piano music.
Not really. They're not any more substantial than lots of other pieces he wrote, and I don't think they're better music than the late opuses for example.
Quote from: André on August 29, 2024, 12:30:30 PMThat's what a conductor is supposed to do: not just play the music, but interpret some of its sonic manifestations (tempo markings, accents, pauses, note values etc) as well as give shape to music paragraphs by adjusting balances between sections.
Sibelius said things like "only Karajan understands what I meant," "Beecham conducts my music as if he learned it from the first fiddle part" and "the details should swim in the soup."
Apparently, he also admired Ormandy's interpretations, although both Karajan and Ormandy could take some liberties. One wonders what Sibelius would've thought of the way Ormandy modified the ending of the 7th, had he lived long enough to hear this 1960 recording:
On the other hand, Vänskä's cycle with the Lahti Symphony is notable for actually trying to follow what Sibelius wrote, when it comes to tempi, pauses, note values and balances. And whatever Sibelius meant by "swim in the soup," you won't find that there.
Quote from: Madiel on August 29, 2024, 01:56:02 PMOpinions about what conductors, and musicians generally, are supposed to do varies. Ravel was notorious for demanding that performers do what they were told by the score and correcting any perceived deviation. When someone complained that he treated performers like slaves, he retorted that performers ARE slaves.
I think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.
Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:
Quote from: Baxcalibur on September 06, 2024, 06:48:46 PMI think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.
Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:
Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Prokofiev also took liberties with their own music. Debussy didn't even mind other people taking liberties with his music.
I think there are two types of composers:
(1) those who feel/know that the score is just an approximation of their thoughts and there's always some room for interpretive liberties, either their own or other people's.
and
(2) those who think that the score is the exact and immutable image of their thoughts and there is never any room for interpretive liberties.
The former are realist, the latter are delusional. ;D
Sanity is not a prerequisite for creating great art. Nor, seeing we're talking about Sibelius, is sobriety.
Quote from: Madiel on September 07, 2024, 05:29:47 AMSanity is not a prerequisite for creating great art.
The contrary might actually be true. :laugh:
QuoteNor, seeing we're talking about Sibelius, is sobriety.
Just so. Which composer was a teetotaller? OTOMH, I can think only of Balakirev and possibly Cyril Scott --- and they are not top tier anyway. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2024, 05:51:28 AMJust so. Which composer was a teetotaller? OTOMH, I can think only of Balakirev and possibly Cyril Scott --- and they are not top tier anyway. ;D
There is a fairly large middle ground between being a teetotaller and being an alcoholic, and quite a few composers manage to occupy that middle ground. But Sibelius seems not to have been one of them.
Quote from: Madiel on September 07, 2024, 05:56:38 AMThere is a fairly large middle ground between being a teetotaller and being an alcoholic, and quite a few composers manage to occupy that middle ground.
Yes on both counts. Actually, AFAIK most (great and less great) composers occupy that middle ground.
QuoteBut Sibelius seems not to have been one of them.
Sibelius was certainly alcoholic. Bax too. For Beethoven there is only circumstantial evidence. Friedrich Wieck formally charged Schumann with being an alcoholic but it doesn't count as evidence in the least.
The only composer I can think of which most certainly drank himself to death is Mussorgsky.
As someone who dabbles in poetry, I can attest that not a few of my (best) poems were written, or at least sketched, when I was tipsy. Otoh, I was never able to write anything when properly drunk --- except inane GMG posts. ;D
Quote from: Baxcalibur on September 06, 2024, 06:48:46 PMSibelius said things like "only Karajan understands what I meant," "Beecham conducts my music as if he learned it from the first fiddle part" and "the details should swim in the soup."
Apparently, he also admired Ormandy's interpretations, although both Karajan and Ormandy could take some liberties. One wonders what Sibelius would've thought of the way Ormandy modified the ending of the 7th, had he lived long enough to hear this 1960 recording:
On the other hand, Vänskä's cycle with the Lahti Symphony is notable for actually trying to follow what Sibelius wrote, when it comes to tempi, pauses, note values and balances. And whatever Sibelius meant by "swim in the soup," you won't find that there.
I think it's safe to say Ravel and Sibelius had different ideas about sticking to the score.
Here is Sibelius taking liberties with his own music:
You mean the trumpet ? Ormandy doesn't observe the diminuendo from ff to mf.
(https://i.discogs.com/TKM4VW9mIiGNFvLX4LJ1VoIJHOZf_wlxgLZ2wm8sYf0/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:591/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU4MDgx/NjEtMTUyMzI2MDk0/My00NzU0LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Quite enjoying Hynnenen and Gothoni - anyone else special in these songs?
CasalQuartet are an outstanding ensemble - I know them through their survey of Xavier Richter quartets. This seems pretty good too.
Not to be confused with Cuarteto Casals.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 08, 2024, 02:04:26 PM(https://i.discogs.com/TKM4VW9mIiGNFvLX4LJ1VoIJHOZf_wlxgLZ2wm8sYf0/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:591/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU4MDgx/NjEtMTUyMzI2MDk0/My00NzU0LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Quite enjoying Hynnenen and Gothoni - anyone else special in these songs?
I love his songs. Everything that makes his music special can be found in the songs too.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 08, 2024, 02:04:26 PM(https://i.discogs.com/TKM4VW9mIiGNFvLX4LJ1VoIJHOZf_wlxgLZ2wm8sYf0/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:591/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTU4MDgx/NjEtMTUyMzI2MDk0/My00NzU0LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Quite enjoying Hynnenen and Gothoni - anyone else special in these songs?
Boy, I'm trying to recall whether or not I've heard any of Sibelius' songs for baritone? I have enjoyed a couple of CDs that I have of Karita Mattila's that have songs by him. I know that I've heard of your singer before, so will have to do some digging around upstairs.
Do you have any favorite songs/recordings Mandryka?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on September 12, 2024, 07:04:32 AMBoy, I'm trying to recall whether or not I've heard any of Sibelius' songs for baritone? I have enjoyed a couple of CDs that I have of Karita Mattila's that have songs by him. I know that I've heard of your singer before, so will have to do some digging around upstairs.
Do you have any favorite songs/recordings Mandryka?
PD
How about this one
or this
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2024, 10:49:11 AMHow about this one
or this
Thank you for your suggestions. I'll check them out. :)
PD
@vandermolen I'm trying to find where you had told me about a complete recording of Karelia on Chandos. Which album is that on?
K
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 10:01:25 AM@vandermolen I'm trying to find where you had told me about a complete recording of Karelia on Chandos. Which album is that on?
K
It's Ondine not Chandos K (I have to keep stopping myself from typing 'PD' !)
There's also a recording of the Complete Karelia music on BIS but I prefer the Ondine recording - you won't regret getting either recording (or in my case - both!) :-)
Thanks! I'll see if I can find a way to listen to it. Also, how do you find the original of Finlandia to be?
K
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 10:26:38 AM(I have to keep stopping myself from typing 'PD' !)
That's good news!
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 10:28:18 AMThanks! I'll see if I can find a way to listen to it. Also, how do you find the original of Finlandia to be?
K
I think that I'm so familiar with 'Finlandia' that the original version made a nice change but I can't remember that much about it.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 11:03:08 AMI think that I'm so familiar with 'Finlandia' that the original version made a nice change but I can't remember that much about it.
I remember listening to the original versions of his second symphony and also
En Saga and sadly, being less than thrilled. :(
K
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 11:09:52 AMI remember listening to the original versions of his second symphony and also En Saga and sadly, being less than thrilled. :(
K
I like the original version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony (BIS CD). I can understand why he tightened up the structure with his revision but, as with 'A London Symphony' by Vaughan Williams, he jettisoned some intensely poetic sections.
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 11:09:52 AMI remember listening to the original versions of his second symphony and also En Saga and sadly, being less than thrilled. :(
K
Whoopsie! My bad: I had meant to type his fifth symphony (not the second). It was on BIS.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 11:13:37 AMI like the original version of Sibelius's 5th Symphony (BIS CD). I can understand why he tightened up the structure with his revision but, as with 'A London Symphony' by Vaughan Williams, he jettisoned some intensely poetic sections.
We were typing at the same time...lol. I might give his fifth another go, but there's so much other music to listen to and limited time (sadly).
K
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 11:15:51 AMWe were typing at the same time...lol. I might give his fifth another go, but there's so much other music to listen to and limited time (sadly).
K
I'd be interested to hear of views on the original Symphony No.5 CD.
I'm beginning to regret buying an 'Alexa' as my wife (and 'Alexa') are playing pop music next door while I am trying (unsuccessfully) to listen to Claudio Santoro's Symphony No.4 (Naxos CD). Oh dear! ::)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 11:19:11 AMI'd be interested to hear of views on the original Symphony No.5 CD.
I'm beginning to regret buying an 'Alexa' as my wife (and 'Alexa') are playing pop music next door while I am trying (unsuccessfully) to listen to Claudio Santoro's Symphony No.4 (Naxos CD). Oh dear! ::)
You bought an 'Alexa' thinger-ma-jigger-critter (no idea of spelling!)! I suspect that this was after your vacation experience?
Hmmm...establishing some playing/listening guidelines in order to keep the peace? Out of curiosity, did she listen to much music pre-Alexa? Or had you monopolized the only CD player? ;) Just teasing you a bit here Jeffrey. And how does Alexa work? Do you basically hook it up to the internet and then buy a set of speakers for it?
K
Quote from: Kalevala on October 03, 2024, 11:31:40 AMYou bought an 'Alexa' thinger-ma-bogger-critter (no idea of spelling!)! I suspect that this was after your vacation experience?
Hmmm...establishing some playing/listening guidelines in order to keep the peace? Out of curiosity, did she listen to much music pre-Alexa? Or had you monopolized the only CD player? ;) Just teasing you a bit here Jeffrey. And how does Alexa work? Do you basically hook it up to the internet and then buy a set of speakers for it?
K
Well K. You are quite right. My first experience of 'Alexa' was on our short break in Norfolk. It seemed quite fun then. As you might be aware my wife and I don't share musical tastes (although she enjoyed a local Vaughan Williams concert that I took her to a while back). I think that headphones might be a solution for me. My wife set up 'Alexa' - it is quite straightforward if you have a mobile phone, You just connect the two devices and you are away. I am very polite to Alexa and always say things like 'Alexa - Good Morning' and she replies with interesting observations like 'Good Morning Jeffrey - today is speak like a pirate day...etc'
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 11:50:15 AMWell K. You are quite right. My first experience of 'Alexa' was on our short break in Norfolk. It seemed quite fun then. As you might be aware my wife and I don't share musical tastes (although she enjoyed a local Vaughan Williams concert that I took her to a while back). I think that headphones might be a solution for me. My wife set up 'Alexa' - it is quite straightforward if you have a mobile phone, You just connect the two devices and you are away. I am very polite to Alexa and always say things like 'Alexa - Good Morning' and she relies with interesting observations like 'Good Morning Jeffrey - today is speak like a pirate day...etc'
Q: Why Are Pirates Called Pirates?
A: Because they aaaarrrrrrrr
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 03, 2024, 11:42:33 PMQ: Why Are Pirates Called Pirates?
A: Because they aaaarrrrrrrr
Very good!
Quote from: André on August 21, 2024, 10:58:14 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91XlcEvP59L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
Just finished listening to the Mäkelä set today. His Sibelius is quite fiery and passionate, sometimes relying on interventionist twists for effect (very slight note value or tempo changes within phrases can create a startling difference, as in 1:I or 5:III). Accents are used to provide sharper attack on some notes, to excellent effect (mushy attacks are the bane of good Sibelius conducting). Big, noble utterances are slightly pulled on long note values, making them sound lusher but also extra yearning and impassioned. I'm not sure the music needs the help, but better this than a too clinical approach.
The sound is what makes the most difference overall: very detailed but also quite close, achieving maximum clarity and impact. No concert hall distance blending orchestral sections. It's all up front and close, but not oppressively so. Quite magnificent I'd say, the only inconvenient being that some passages lack mystery, which is a bit detrimental to the last 2 symphonies. The 6th acquires startling power and immediacy from the get go, the introduction of I losing its usual misty dawn atmosphere. The 7th is slightly beefy and unsubtle in the first section, although the trombones are heard with impressive weight and the double basses sound absolutely HUGE.
1: a real winner, one of the best performances I've heard, passionate and refulgent. Just under Stokowski (unmatched) and von Garaguly, on a par with Sargeant and ahead of the excellent Ormandy, Barbirolli, Davis Boston.
2: a very good conception, if slightly lacking in tension. Barbirolli RPO and Szell Cleveland (live) reign supreme here. Szell Concertgebouw, Monteux LSO, Ormandy Sony are a bit more impassioned than Mäkelä, but the sound is not as fine.
3: another winner. Mäkelä gives this underrated work the stature, drive and passionate advocacy it deserves. The first movement with its galloping string figurations (shades of the finale of Schubert's 9th) is taken with gusto by the Oslo Phil strings. Best ever: Rozhdestvensky's exhilarating, punchy interpretation, with tangy winds and viciously scurrying strings. Then Mäkelä.
4: the sound here serves the conductor's conception well. Mäkelä presents it almost as a concerto for orchestra, each movement sharply lit, double basses and low winds baleful and menacing. The glockenspiel otoh is hardly noticeable. Considering the kind of sound balance favoured by the conductor/sound engineers, I would think this is intentional. Excellent in its chosen way, but I prefer the über dramatic Ormandy (1954 mono), the gaunt, implacable Karajan Berlin (EMI) or Vänskä Lahti on BIS.
5: the 3rd winner in the set. Conducting, playing and sound fit the music perfectly here. The coda of I is jaw-dropping in its power, subtly helped by an unmarked accelerando - I normally don't like a fast coda here, but this is so well prepared it sounds totally organic. At that point I was air conducting like a dutch windmill. The last movement also builds up to a triumphant, implacable conclusion. Closure is of the essence here. Some conductors seem not to know what to do with the last crescendo and the closing chords. They sometimes sound like question marks. Here they properly sound like confidently nailed exclamation marks. Favourites: Rozhdestvensky (the baleful sections truly scary), Mäkelä, Ole Schmidt, Karajan Berlin (EMI), Sargent, Davis Boston.
6: this cinderella among Sibelius' symphonies is often made to sound sunny, gentle, affectionate and playful (Karajan DG is perfect in that respect). Not so here. Like Rozhdestvensky, Mäkelä highlights the many undercurrents of doubt, unquiet and restlessness that traverse the work. It's like exploring a dark cave gleaming with myriad colours and shadows under a torch. This is an unsentimental, powerful account of the symphony, with a few surprisingly potent orchestral outbursts. The 6th is an elusive work, its character and qualities harder to discern than the other symphonies. Mäkelä tackles it head on and surprises me with its forthrightness and objectivity. For this symphony I have no clear favourite, but Karajan DG, Davis Boston, Rozhdestvensky, Mäkelä and Vänskä Lahti all impress in their chosen way.
7: possibly my favourite among the Sibelius symphonies. That one, too, is elusive and presents a constantly shifting perspective. Although in a single movement, it is clearly divided in sections. The banding on this Decca disc is in 4 tracks. Once again Mäkelä puts forth big-boned, frankly lit orchestral textures, with clear distinction between sections. The strings are strong, producing a full, deep, almost saturated sound (the very first phrase). Trombones are menacing, bright on top and deep at the bottom. The Valse triste quotation at the end is almost sinister, not wistful at all. Sometimes I had the impression I was listening to The Firebird. A very interesting interpretation. The conductor clearly thinks highly of the work, declaring in the notes it's 'the most perfect' of the lot. Here, too, no clear favourite emerges, but the 1965 Munch BSO is mandatory listening (easily found on Youtube). Uncharacteristically for this conductor the timing is on the slow side (24 mins to Mäkelä's 23 or Szell's 19), but sounds like molten lava sweeping all before it.
EDIT: Tapiola is also in this set. I've listened to it twice and am not sure what to think of the interpretation. I don't have as many points of comparison either. In this recording the big moments are very big indeed, with a frightening storm sequence and a menacing coda where the orchestra sounds like they have 40 double basses and 25 bassoons on hand - it almost sounds like they imported an organ to underpin the rest of the orchestra.
Thanks for this. And in particular thanks for mentioning Munch in 7 - your comment prompted me to listen to his extraordinary, passionate performance. Impossible to listen to anything after it, it's such a powerful experience.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2024, 11:50:15 AMWell K. You are quite right. My first experience of 'Alexa' was on our short break in Norfolk. It seemed quite fun then. As you might be aware my wife and I don't share musical tastes (although she enjoyed a local Vaughan Williams concert that I took her to a while back). I think that headphones might be a solution for me. My wife set up 'Alexa' - it is quite straightforward if you have a mobile phone, You just connect the two devices and you are away. I am very polite to Alexa and always say things like 'Alexa - Good Morning' and she replies with interesting observations like 'Good Morning Jeffrey - today is speak like a pirate day...etc'
Ask her if she'll marry you. You'll be amused by the reply.
Quote from: Mandryka on January 03, 2025, 01:47:26 PMThanks for this. And in particular thanks for mentioning Munch in 7 - your comment prompted me to listen to his extraordinary, passionate performance. Impossible to listen to anything after it, it's such a powerful experience.
This live recording is also included in this set and is available on Qobuz.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/yc/n1/rl6pbrujqn1yc_600.jpg)
Quote from: Mandryka on January 03, 2025, 01:55:11 PMAsk her if she'll marry you. You'll be amused by the reply.
Just tried it but I never got more that 2/3 right so she rejected my proposal :(
Good fun though - thanks.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on January 04, 2025, 03:31:43 AMThis live recording is also included in this set and is available on Qobuz.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/yc/n1/rl6pbrujqn1yc_600.jpg)
That's the one I listened to, it looks like there are others on youtube. It really did have a big impact on me last night - I guess I was in the right frame of mind!
Quote from: Mandryka on January 04, 2025, 07:30:55 AMThat's the one I listened to, it looks like there are others on youtube. It really did have a big impact on me last night - I guess I was in the right frame of mind!
I see two recordings by Munch with the Boston Symphony on YouTube: one from July 30, 1965 (Tanglewood) and the other from March 18, 1966 (Symphony Hall, Boston). The first one resonated with me more, though the second is also excellent. I fully agree that Munch's interpretations of the 7th are extraordinary.
I'm curious—what exactly did you listen to afterward for comparison that made you conclude it's "impossible to listen to anything else after it"? If it's Karajan, then I understand what you mean :)
Well, I listened to another Sib7 after Munch. It was Szell with the Cleveland orchestra. Objectively it was fine, but it sounded tight and skimpy after Munch's.
After two versions by Munch, I listened to Karajan, three versions by Berglund, and Vänskä with the Lahti Symphony. Karajan was very disappointing—completely off the mark—but the Finns were excellent. The last one I heard was Berglund's third version last night before bed, and it felt magical after a long and eventful day. I'll keep exploring other versions.
Once again I find myself in the midst of a very busy time of year, but tonight I'm taking the effort to make a somewhat substantial contribution to GMG. :) The wintry weather often puts me in the mood for Sibelius - I mean, what composer goes better with a season than Sibelius with winter? So, recently I've explored his solo piano output, which was relatively unknown to me until now. It's all been recorded splendidly by pianist Janne Mertanen on this 5-disc set from Sony:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51qlsiCbmOL._UXNaN_FMjpg_QL85_.jpg)
Sibelius' piano music, like Dvorak's, often gets sniffed at as being "insubstantial" and "unpianistic". Okay, there are no "monumental" statements here, but so what? These pieces almost always carry Sibelius' distinctive fingerprints that we know and love from his orchestral works. The earlier works here, like the 10 Pieces, Op. 24 and the F major Sonata often have a surprisingly big, "symphonic" demeanor (the Romance Op. 24/2 is the longest track in the set at 7 minutes long - powerful stuff). The Sonata is a compact, breezy, and invigorating work that really ought to be a staple of the piano repertoire. Many of the later piano works are on the brief side (1-3 minutes long) and could be described as high-quality salon music, but are none the worse for that. You won't find the pianistic equivalents of the 4th Symphony or Tapiola here, despite the fact that their composition dates overlap. Other highlights include the atmospheric Kylikki, the quirky Zwei Rondinos, the 10 Pieces Op. 58, and the delectable Valse chevaleresque and Valse lyrique. If you're a Sibelius fan, you owe it to yourself to explore at least some of his pianistic output!
I love that set and have been advocating it enthusiastically on the WAYLT thread from time to time. To my ears one of the best 2 recordings available (the other is Servadei which is harder to come by physically, not sure about its streaming status).
Two of the opus numbers are completely off, namely opp.34 and 40 really belong with op.76 as miscellaneous collections. Once you know that it's very interesting to hear the evolution of Sibelius' style through his piano works. I do agree that op.24 is particularly memorable, big Romantic music.
Here's a surprising recent video from Samuel Andreyev talking about/analyzing the 7th symphony:
Given his penchant for the postwar avant-garde, I never knew Andreyev liked Sibelius --- you learn something new every day.
I haven't yet seen this one but Andreyev seems to have a rather nuanced position in many respects; he has a video on great instrumentation in Beethoven where he picks some of the oddest passages (usually ones I had never been aware of as special at all) that shows he both knows the standard rep very well and has an uncommon perspective.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 30, 2025, 12:44:59 AMI haven't yet seen this one but Andreyev seems to have a rather nuanced position in many respects; he has a video on great instrumentation in Beethoven where he picks some of the oddest passages (usually ones I had never been aware of as special at all) that shows he both knows the standard rep very well and has an uncommon perspective.
He also loves Bach and has mentioned Mozart on numerous occasions. He does have a wide palette and one that I haven't really given much thought about until now.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on June 28, 2025, 06:56:37 PMHere's a surprising recent video from Samuel Andreyev talking about/analyzing the 7th symphony:
Given his penchant for the postwar avant-garde, I never knew Andreyev liked Sibelius --- you learn something new every day.
However, Samuel does not think Havergal Brian is a good composer. :o
I remember a discussion here of a post-WWII René Leibowitz tract that trashed Sibelius, which probably represented the opinions of some of the avant-garde at the time, although I suspect that Sibelius accepting an award from Hitler in 1935 didn't help matters.
Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2025, 12:55:00 PMHowever, Samuel does not think Havergal Brian is a good composer. :o
I remember a discussion here of a post-WWII René Leibowitz tract that trashed Sibelius, which probably represented the opinions of some of the avant-garde at the time, although I suspect that Sibelius accepting an award from Hitler in 1935 didn't help matters.
I share Andreyev's sentiment regarding Havergal Brian. :)
Here's a fun video with MTT talking about Sibelius' 6th symphony:
This seems to be an early template for what would later become his
Keeping Score series.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on July 02, 2025, 09:21:32 PMHere's a fun video with MTT talking about Sibelius' 6th symphony:
This seems to be an early template for what would later become his Keeping Score series.
MTT was always a wonderful communicator. His parents were entertainers so he seems to inherited some of that. There was a recent interview, he doesn't look great, but you still see a boyish joy in him even now that he's no longer working.
Quote from: relm1 on July 03, 2025, 05:51:42 AMMTT was always a wonderful communicator. His parents were entertainers so he seems to inherited some of that. There was a recent interview, he doesn't look great, but you still see a boyish joy in him even now that he's no longer working.
Yes, he appeared on
CBS Sunday Morning and, to be honest, I didn't think some of Lesley Stahl's questions were coming from a place of genuine concern or even care, especially when talking to him about his disease. It seems like she's playing the journalist trying to find out as much as possible. The interview I watched was the longer one, which lasted around 30 minutes or so. He seemed a little hesitant (and perhaps even aggravated about her line of questioning). Clearly he was really not up to talking about it and probably wanted to continue talking about his past history and love for music. MTT is rather private unless it's something that
he wants to share, so I thought it was in bad taste for Stahl to want to play up that angle. Journalists just can't have a nice conversation with someone it seems without resorting to getting the latest scoop --- there's always an agenda.
Anyway, others may feel different about it and the interview started off rather well, but I think MTT would've appreciated less talk of his disease (which he deals with every day of his life) and more about his greatest passion: music.
Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2025, 12:55:00 PMI remember a discussion here of a post-WWII René Leibowitz tract that trashed Sibelius, which probably represented the opinions of some of the avant-garde at the time, although I suspect that Sibelius accepting an award from Hitler in 1935 didn't help matters.
Original text and translation here for anyone who missed it!
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26113.0.html
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on July 03, 2025, 06:39:54 AMYes, he appeared on CBS Sunday Morning and, to be honest, I didn't think some of Lesley Stahl's questions were coming from a place of genuine concern or even care, especially when talking to him about his disease. It seems like she's playing the journalist trying to find out as much as possible. The interview I watched was the longer one, which lasted around 30 minutes or so. He seemed a little hesitant (and perhaps even aggravated about her line of questioning). Clearly he was really not up to talking about it and probably wanted to continue talking about his past history and love for music. MTT is rather private unless it's something that he wants to share, so I thought it was in bad taste for Stahl to want to play up that angle. Journalists just can't have a nice conversation with someone it seems without resorting to getting the latest scoop --- there's always an agenda.
Anyway, others may feel different about it and the interview started off rather well, but I think MTT would've appreciated less talk of his disease (which he deals with every day of his life) and more about his greatest passion: music.
That was the interview I was referring to but I didn't see there was a longer one too so missed too much talk of the terminal illness which obviously isn't a positive place to spend much emotional or mental time in.
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2025, 05:45:37 AMOriginal text and translation here for anyone who missed it!
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26113.0.html
After re-reading this thread, I was most interested in a series of comments about how rare (in fact, non-existent) are recordings of Sibelius by conductors from Latin/Romance countries. (French, Italian, etc.) This seems still to be true. There have of course been many recordings of the symphonies by Scandinavian, English, and American conductors, a small number by Germanic ones (Karajan, Stein, Sanderling, Rosbaud), and a famous legacy from one Hungarian (Ormandy).
But I just sorted Presto's listings for the complete cycle and Symphony No. 6 specifically. No Italian, French, Spanish, or otherwise Mediterranean conductors turned up. I then checked En Saga and found two: Victor de Sabata and Arturo Toscanini, both recordings dating from the composer's lifetime.
Quote from: relm1 on July 04, 2025, 05:58:09 AMThat was the interview I was referring to but I didn't see there was a longer one too so missed too much talk of the terminal illness which obviously isn't a positive place to spend much emotional or mental time in.
Most of the interview was rather good, though. When MTT started talking about Mahler's
Das Lied von der Erde, his eyes just lit up. This was a great thing to witness, because it's obvious that the music inside him is still burning as passionately as ever.
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2025, 06:41:05 AMAfter re-reading this thread, I was most interested in a series of comments about how rare (in fact, non-existent) are recordings of Sibelius by conductors from Latin/Romance countries. (French, Italian, etc.) This seems still to be true. There have of course been many recordings of the symphonies by Scandinavian, English, and American conductors, a small number by Germanic ones (Karajan, Stein, Sanderling, Rosbaud), and a famous legacy from one Hungarian (Ormandy).
But I just sorted Presto's listings for the complete cycle and Symphony No. 6 specifically. No Italian, French, Spanish, or otherwise Mediterranean conductors turned up. I then checked En Saga and found two: Victor de Sabata and Arturo Toscanini, both recordings dating from the composer's lifetime.
Interesting. To play the Devil's advocate for a moment: is it perchance that they have recorded them, but that they just haven't been good sellers (the reason not listed)?
K
There's even a gradient between German/Austrian and Anglo/Northern/Eastern European conductors. As I said before, Sibelius (except the violin concerto) was considered somewhat niche in Germany/Austria as late as the 1980s. So were Bruckner and Mahler despite being also championed locally. I am not aware of a famous French Bruckner conductor either (Boulez did #8 only) and the Italian Brucknerians like Giulini, Abbado, Chailly seem to have been so "austrogermanized" that they barely count as Italian anymore (it was all Holy Roman Empire anyway ;)).
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2025, 06:41:05 AMAfter re-reading this thread, I was most interested in a series of comments about how rare (in fact, non-existent) are recordings of Sibelius by conductors from Latin/Romance countries. (French, Italian, etc.) This seems still to be true. There have of course been many recordings of the symphonies by Scandinavian, English, and American conductors, a small number by Germanic ones (Karajan, Stein, Sanderling, Rosbaud), and a famous legacy from one Hungarian (Ormandy).
But I just sorted Presto's listings for the complete cycle and Symphony No. 6 specifically. No Italian, French, Spanish, or otherwise Mediterranean conductors turned up. I then checked En Saga and found two: Victor de Sabata and Arturo Toscanini, both recordings dating from the composer's lifetime.
An exception to every rule. I also thought Ansermet but he is Swiss so probably doesn't count.
It might be better to say that the Symphony No. 2 is the exception due to its midcentury popularity. Monteux also recorded it, of course. While searching for more info on the topic (for a reply that the forum software has been steadfastly blocking with a "Forbidden" error since Thursday), I found a performing history of Sibelius symphonies by Rome's major orchestra, the Santa Cecilia. The Second is a frequent guest there. The Fifth had been performed there once in the last 27 years (as of the time of that history being written). The Third and Fourth - never!
EDIT: Let's see if I can get around the "Forbidden" error by editing my blocked post into this one.
The same website that had the Rome history also had performing history for the RAI orchestra in Turin. They've played the Sixth just once.
In the original thread, Jo498 and others listed a number of prominent conductors who did/do not have Sibelius in their repertoires, except to accompany soloists in the Violin Concerto: Giulini, Chailly, Abbado, Munch, Muti, Martinon, Cluytens. (Chailly conducts Finlandia live and there is a live Munch 7th on YouTube.)
Aha! It is working! The only thing remaining is to answer Kalevala's question: Presto lists everything in print, either physically or as download, but not out-of-print not-for-sale old recordings.
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2025, 06:41:05 AMAfter re-reading this thread, I was most interested in a series of comments about how rare (in fact, non-existent) are recordings of Sibelius by conductors from Latin/Romance countries. (French, Italian, etc.)
Prêtre recorded Symphonies No. 2 & 5.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51UrZNNHywL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
EDIT: For the 6th, there's Robert Spano's recording. OK, he was born in Ohio, but the name means "one who came from Spain, or who returned after having resided in Spain." He recording Symphonies 6, 7, and Kullervo.
Maruice Abravanel did a whole Sibelius symphony cycle. He was from a Sephardic family from Thessaloniki, and he would have had ancestors who were kicked out of Spain in 1492.
Then there's Adrian Leaper, who made a recording of the 6th with the Orquesta Filarmonica Gran Canaria, which is in the Canary Islands, part of Spain!
I have an absolutely enormous spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings. From memory I downloaded it from some sort of Sibelius society website. Basically for every work it will tell you what recordings are available, often multiple editions of the same recording when it's one that a big record company keeps reissuing.
I know I downloaded it at least twice, getting an updated version the 2nd time, though that was probably several years ago by now.
Celibidache recorded S2 with the Swedish RSO and S5 at least thrice: Swedish RSO, Munich Philharmonic and Orchestra RAI di Milano.
Quote from: Brian on July 07, 2025, 05:02:56 AMIt might be better to say that the Symphony No. 2 is the exception due to its midcentury popularity. Monteux also recorded it, of course. While searching for more info on the topic (for a reply that the forum software has been steadfastly blocking with a "Forbidden" error since Thursday), I found a performing history of Sibelius symphonies by Rome's major orchestra, the Santa Cecilia. The Second is a frequent guest there. The Fifth had been performed there once in the last 27 years (as of the time of that history being written). The Third and Fourth - never!
EDIT: Let's see if I can get around the "Forbidden" error by editing my blocked post into this one.
The same website that had the Rome history also had performing history for the RAI orchestra in Turin. They've played the Sixth just once.
In the original thread, Jo498 and others listed a number of prominent conductors who did/do not have Sibelius in their repertoires, except to accompany soloists in the Violin Concerto: Giulini, Chailly, Abbado, Munch, Muti, Martinon, Cluytens. (Chailly conducts Finlandia live and there is a live Munch 7th on YouTube.)
Aha! It is working! The only thing remaining is to answer Kalevala's question: Presto lists everything in print, either physically or as download, but not out-of-print not-for-sale old recordings.
Munch's 7th is a stunning performance. He added it to his repertoire late in life but played it a few times. Strange that he didn't choose the 1st or the 2nd instead. He turns the 7th into an intensely romantic experience, so that may be what attracted him to the piece.
Quote from: Madiel on July 08, 2025, 05:32:07 AMI have an absolutely enormous spreadsheet of Sibelius recordings. From memory I downloaded it from some sort of Sibelius society website. Basically for every work it will tell you what recordings are available, often multiple editions of the same recording when it's one that a big record company keeps reissuing.
I know I downloaded it at least twice, getting an updated version the 2nd time, though that was probably several years ago by now.
Perhaps it was from Sibelius One? Though what I read, they stated that it was just ones that were in print.
K
Quote from: Florestan on July 09, 2025, 06:56:30 AMCelibidache recorded S2 with the Swedish RSO and S5 at least thrice: Swedish RSO, Munich Philharmonic and Orchestra RAI di Milano.
The S5 with RAI Milano would apparently make it doubly Latin/Romance —— except that Celibidache is rather Teutonic what with his serious and solemn approach to music in general. ;D
What are some REALLY good sounding Sibelius recordings? I would like to hear these perfet symphonies in perfect sound.
Quote from: Skogwald on July 11, 2025, 09:27:40 AMWhat are some REALLY good sounding Sibelius recordings? I would like to hear these perfet symphonies in perfect sound.
Vanska/Minnesota has such impressive sonics that it sounds like you are there in the concert hall. They are literally the best recording of anything I have ever heard. Not just Sibelius. Not just classical. Anything. If you listen to it on a good stereo, you will be blown away.
(https://www.classicalexplorer.com/content/images/2020/12/Sibelius17-2.jpeg)
Quote from: DavidW on July 11, 2025, 01:26:35 PMVanska/Minnesota has such impressive sonics that it sounds like you are there in the concert hall. They are literally the best recording of anything I have ever heard. Not just Sibelius. Not just classical. Anything. If you listen to it on a good stereo, you will be blown away.
(https://www.classicalexplorer.com/content/images/2020/12/Sibelius17-2.jpeg)
Excellent, that's my today's listening sorted. Thank you!
Quote from: DavidW on July 11, 2025, 01:26:35 PMVanska/Minnesota has such impressive sonics that it sounds like you are there in the concert hall. They are literally the best recording of anything I have ever heard. Not just Sibelius. Not just classical. Anything. If you listen to it on a good stereo, you will be blown away.
(https://www.classicalexplorer.com/content/images/2020/12/Sibelius17-2.jpeg)
I'm very fond of Vänskä's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, could listen to them any day of the week. They're beautifully recorded too: soft, natural, really quite a delicious sound. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to claim they're the finest audio quality recordings I've ever heard ;) .
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 11, 2025, 08:55:04 PMI'm very fond of Vänskä's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, could listen to them any day of the week. They're beautifully recorded too: soft, natural, really quite a delicious sound. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to claim they're the finest audio quality recordings I've ever heard ;) .
That is fine. I didn't say it was the finest SQ you've ever heard, I said it was the finest I ever heard.
Quote from: Skogwald on July 11, 2025, 08:22:45 PMExcellent, that's my today's listening sorted. Thank you!
Hang on there! Check out the "other" BIS cycle - recorded in SACD from Okku Kamu. He's a great Sibelian but this cycle in really fine sound has been oddly overlooked almost everywhere....
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71rkFvIBIhL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)
In the interest of full disclosure Jabba the Hurwitz finds this cycle "variable" at best.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 12, 2025, 05:22:57 AMHang on there! Check out the "other" BIS cycle - recorded in SACD from Okku Kamu. He's a great Sibelian but this cycle in really fine sound has been oddly overlooked almost everywhere....
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71rkFvIBIhL._UF894,1000_QL80_.jpg)
In the interest of full disclosure Jabba the Hurwitz finds this cycle "variable" at best.
I love his conducting. Yes, a very fine set. Very authentic. In contrast, Bernstein's DG recordings sound like Sibelius by way of Richard Strauss. I like it, it's just a very different feel.
Quote from: DavidW on July 12, 2025, 04:46:07 AMThat is fine. I didn't say it was the finest SQ you've ever heard, I said it was the finest I ever heard.
Not entirely sure I grasped the point of your remark: "I didn't say it was the finest SQ you've ever heard". Naturally, you couldn't possibly know what I've listened to, or in what sound quality. But do carry on.
Quote from: AnotherSpin on July 12, 2025, 06:04:18 AMNot entirely sure I grasped the point of your remark: "I didn't say it was the finest SQ you've ever heard". Naturally, you couldn't possibly know what I've listened to, or in what sound quality. But do carry on.
For someone who very so often claims not to care about what other people think, the lady doth protest too much. ;D
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 12, 2025, 05:22:57 AMHang on there! Check out the "other" BIS cycle - recorded in SACD from Okku Kamu. He's a great Sibelian but this cycle in really fine sound has been oddly overlooked almost everywhere....
I wonder if it was just eclipsed by Vanska with the same orchestra. I'll have to give this set a listen!