Well what about his neglected and underrated piano music, which I have complete on the BIS label. It was always treated as mere play by Sibelius, but I think its pretty darn good.How about one of his best compositions: The Tempest?
Than you have the tone poems, apart from his symphonies.
His violinconcerto.
His vocal output is not my cup of tea, so my rating would count for nothing..............
How about one of his best compositions: The Tempest?
Although written at a very young age, I also enjoy a lot his piano trios and early string quartets. And the Voces intimae SQ is also a masterpiece.
All true my friend! :)Who could?
Still I could not live without the Symphonies!
Who could?
Actually, I know someone, but I'll keep my mouth shut... :)
Tapiola
Although to my horror, the program notes mentioned that it had not been performed by the orchestra since 1934.
That's bad enough on its own, as a raw statistic, Bruce.
But wouldn't that mean that Lenny never touched it with the NY Phil?
What would Sibelius be without his seven symphonies?
How about one of the greatest composers of songs?
It's true.
So good, in fact, that when orchestrated his songs take on a dimension rivalling that of his better-known symphonic works. And the quality is uniformly high.
So run, don't walk to hear what all the fuss is about!
Well what about his neglected and underrated piano music, which I have complete on the BIS label. It was always treated as mere play by Sibelius, but I think its pretty darn good.
Donwyn, I already had my eye on these - would you recommend them?
Q
Lounnotar, Opus 70
Barden, Opus 64
Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu (Nightride & Sunrise), Opus 55
Truly, Capt, I meant Tapiola nothing remotely like a slight.
Luonnotar is a marvellous piece (EMI Dorati)
Who sings?
Thank you for bringing his piano music to my attention, Harry. Up 'till now I've not given it a second thought.
Would like to remedy that.
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
A query awaits you here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,164.msg7293.html#msg7293), Don.
Erik T on BIS also knows how to handle Sibelius's piano music, and he is a world wide expert in this field. :)
Have you heard the Mustonen disc? What's your opinion?
Of course I heard it, and its good, but I rate my Erik T recordings as high Don. :)
Good news is, that the Sibelius component of that has been reissued on this Gemini two-fer (http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Tone-Poems-Songs-Jean/dp/B0001RVRH2/ref=sr_1_1/002-7979366-0336018?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177002852&sr=1-1).
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
Alright George, I hope you read this thread because I decided to post my thoughts here:
I currently have three recordings of Sibelius' Sixth Symphony: Bernstein, Blomstedt, and Segerstam.
I'm focusing on the finale, which is where I think these recordings really diverge, and is the heart of the symphony for me:
What I noticed is that Bernstein was uniformly faster than both conductors. However I think that the finale has a delicate contrast of joy and despair that is lost in the Bernstein recording. Thanks to the poor quality of the recording the dynamic range sounds squashed, and in combination with the overly zippy tempos, I feel that we never see the manic-depressive mood swings portrayed like we do in Blomstedt and Segerstam.
I think that the slow tempos are essential to really hear the emotional complexity of the Sixth, but I should say that Hurwitz doesn't think so, he think it should be played fast like Bernstein. George, how does Ashkenazy play it? I'm wondering if you're in Hurwitz' camp and find Blomstedt's slower tempos distasteful.
And for other forumites, how do you like the finale in the Sixth to be taken?
George, overall my favorite is Segerstam, he's just amazing. His recording of this symphony just floors me! :)
Nice to have you back Dave !
What are you doing now?
Thanks! :)Good luck.
Well after several months of wondering what the hell I want to do with my life, I realized that I still like physics, I just hated grad school. So I've been applying for teaching positions. I have an interview on Tuesday, they're paying to fly me out and it should be neat.
Good luck.
Alright George, I hope you read this thread because I decided to post my thoughts here:
I currently have three recordings of Sibelius' Sixth Symphony: Bernstein, Blomstedt, and Segerstam.
I'm focusing on the finale, which is where I think these recordings really diverge, and is the heart of the symphony for me:
What I noticed is that Bernstein was uniformly faster than both conductors. However I think that the finale has a delicate contrast of joy and despair that is lost in the Bernstein recording. Thanks to the poor quality of the recording the dynamic range sounds squashed, and in combination with the overly zippy tempos, I feel that we never see the manic-depressive mood swings portrayed like we do in Blomstedt and Segerstam.
I think that the slow tempos are essential to really hear the emotional complexity of the Sixth, but I should say that Hurwitz doesn't think so, he think it should be played fast like Bernstein. George, how does Ashkenazy play it? I'm wondering if you're in Hurwitz' camp and find Blomstedt's slower tempos distasteful.
Then you need Olli Mustone's Ondine disc (no. 1014). He takes good music and makes it sound wonderful.
I wasn't, but I am now. Thanks!
Tempos for #6
Ashkenazy's Blomstedt's
9:23 9:24
5:42 6:28
3:54 3:33
9:17 10:23
Not sure how fast Bernstein is in the finale...What are Segerstam's timings?
Segerstam Bernstein
9:27 8:03
6:08 5:32
3:57 3:54
10:39 8:57
Sarge
It's not loading for me . . . .
Recently there have been many server crashed at forumup.com, worldwide, so please be patient if the forum doesn't load, it should be up in a few days.
As far as that Isokoski disc goes, I recommend it without reservation, Q! Her rendition of Luonnotar is worth the asking price of this disc alone.
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
I'll be eagerly awaiting my copy in the mail. Alex Ross is a great writer on music, and his website is well worth visiting:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/
It looks like the Sibelius article will be included in an upcoming book on 20th century music.
You can find it here (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/09/070709fa_fact_ross).
Thank you, I'll read it.
Personally, I have only few knowledge about his symphonies, I've bought the Blomstedt SFSO cycle and the Rozhdestvensky/Moscow SO.
But I'm absolutely fascinated by his tone poems. At the top of all, there's the wood nymph op. 15. What a great piece of more than 20 minutes of music. What a powerful earthquake like conclusion! There are probably just two cd releases out there, the best known is the BIS one. A must. Too sad, lot of people do not know it!
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d5/e6/e425224b9da0b2d57822c010._AA240_.L.jpg)
Also on my top recommendations list: The Rozhdestvensky/LSO interpretation of the Finlandia. It's different from others, at some points staccato like. To me, it's as it has to be... This interpretation transports all the finlandia feelings best. The sadness, the tragic, the war, the victory, the peace... all it has.... The Rozh/LSO can e.g. be found here:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5123F0AC6SL._AA240_.jpg)
I'd just like to report that I finally heard the Rattle recording of Night Ride & Sunrise that Mike has praised to the heavens. Capital Public Radio played it the other morning. I ordered a copy that night.
The only Rattle Sibelius I have at present is the CBSO 5th, which I've heard only once, finding it so bland that I've never returned. I'm not a Rattle fan anyway, and admit to taking potshots at him when he seems overpraised. Nor am I a fan of Night Ride and Sunrise -- possibly the only orchestral piece by Sibelius I don't love. Mike has suggested that hearing Rattle's Night Ride might change my mind about both.
It has.
I heard it in the car on my way to work--and not even the whole thing, as I had an early telecon preventing me from sitting in the car and listening till the end. What I heard in the first 4 minutes was an orchestral balance that favored the winds rather than the repetitive rhythmic figure in the strings, somewhat liberal rubato rendering the figure less mind-numbingly boring, and very liberal dynamics that really made the piece come alive. I ordered a copy from BRO and when it arrives will let you know if I like the rest of it as much!
Nice to hear from you, Don. :)
...going to start on Ashkenazy I think next...
This cycle seems to divide GMGers.
For myself, I've frequently come to the defense of Ashkenazy while recognizing that others are better at capturing that Nordic chill so integral to the music - Vänskä and Blomstedt for starters.
But for what it is Ashkenazy's cycle certainly makes its mark. It's not for lack of an 'angle' or forethought that Ashkenazy tackles these works. They've been thoroughly thought out.
Whether or not one warms to them is entirely a personal thing, however.
Here's an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/arts/music/28sibe.html?ex=1345953600&en=5e8727def4b6a786&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) about The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which will be 70 CDs. :o
Here's an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/28/arts/music/28sibe.html?ex=1345953600&en=5e8727def4b6a786&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) about The Sibelius Edition on BIS, which will be 70 CDs. :o
--Bruce
The New York Times Doesn't know how to do the umlauts in names such as Vänskä or Lemminkäinen? Pretty provincial.
Of course, once you have the Maazel cycle, then you need the single Legends disc to get his Tapiola too, thus duplicating 4 & 7. Bah.
Of course, once you have the Maazel cycle, then you need the single Legends disc to get his Tapiola too, thus duplicating 4 & 7. Bah.
The crashing accelerandos, spinning the Viennese into a frenzy, the sinewy strings, round clear winds, and towering unshakable horns, this is perhaps the dream 1st, so far, for me.
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
marvin (Sibelius Newbie)
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Thank you Mark and Lethe for the speedy response. WOW Mark, for you Sibelius comes right after Beethoven that says a lot. Lethe thanks for answering my queries regarding Wagner, and I think I'll go along with Mark and your suggestion and start with the Symphonies.
marvin
Hello everyone, I am posting here because I am new to Sibelius and have been looking for a new composer to explore. I always like to discover new music, last month I discovered Brunckner and now I am looking into exploring Sibelius. So why Sibelius, well quite honestly because I read that, much like Bruckner, he was a great admirer of WAGNER 0:), my favorite composer. So what I'd like to ask is how "WAGNERIAN" are Sibelius' works? Where should I start? What should I expect? and most importantly what should I look forward to?
marvin (Sibelius Newbie)
PS: Why is Sibelius Snowshoed ??? ??
Currently on Amazon, two twofers you ought not to pass up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000041BV/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2676685-3936431?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1TK3KVD7EB703TPZFPNB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Violin-Concerto/dp/B0000041BW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/026-2676685-3936431
Currently on Amazon, two twofers you ought not to pass up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000041BV/ref=s9_asin_image_1/026-2676685-3936431?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1TK3KVD7EB703TPZFPNB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos-Violin-Concerto/dp/B0000041BW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/026-2676685-3936431
Marvin, your training shall commence with recordings of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7.
What! You've left out № 4!! 8)
What! You've left out № 4!! 8)
I was just listening to No. 4 when I began reading the new posts in this thread and I would agree with skipping No. 4 in the beginning. Actually, I might save No. 7 for a later date as well. From my personal experience, it took a while to get into that symphony.
Perhaps not the best place to start a Sibelius exploration. I agree with Mark.
Sarge
I was just listening to No. 4 when I began reading the new posts in this thread and I would agree with skipping No. 4 in the beginning. Actually, I might save No. 7 for a later date as well. From my personal experience, it took a while to get into that symphony.
Marvin, your training shall commence with recordings of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7.
[ B ] You never know; for some people, № 4 may be the Sibelius Lever. All I say is, it's possible (the freethinker in me).
What surprises me is Mark leaving out the First, which is the symphony I'd start Marvin with...but then I'm a chronological kind of guy ;D
Sarge
I guess everyone has a different 'biting point' with these symphonies; for me, it was No. 2 (I never really 'got' No. 1 for quite some time). And thanks for the link to the Maazel. :)
OK now I am intrigued, what is it about the 4th Symphony that sets it apart from the rest? different sound texture? style? is it more complex musically? whats really going on here ??? ?? When I first approached Bruckner's symphonies I started at the beginning and moved sequentially culminating in the 9th that seemed to work out great for me....now from what I am reading I have to go through a juggling act with Sibelius, skipping the 4th till the end..but before I join the circus I would like to know why?
PS: I am keen on acquiring all of Sibelius' symphonies but if listening requires some variation in order then I am just going to have to live with it!!
marvin
The first two are his most accessable, the 3rd is an excellent bridge into his new style. The 4th isn't as oppressive as we make it sound, it's just a little "dark" and "cold" compared to some of his other works . . . .
Going from symphony no.1 to no.7 chronologically would be an excellent idea if you have the will, as his evolving style is remarkable to trace :) The first two are his most accessable, the 3rd is an excellent bridge into his new style. The 4th isn't as oppressive as we make it sound, it's just a little "dark" and "cold" compared to some of his other works - and if you already have the previous three (and possibly Kullervo) under your belt before listening, it has no chance of alienating you.
Note that there is much crossover between his symphonies and tone poems, to the extent that it is difficult to know where one starts and the other ends. His 7th symphony is a very refined single movement work (although it can be divided into sections for CDs, but it is continuously played throughout), and in some ways his tone poem Tapiola is almost his 8th symphony, as it feels very natural coming after the single movement 7th. His tone poems are an equally important area of his work to his symphonies, so if you are looking to choose between various cheap boxed sets, perhaps pick one with a good selection of them - or supplement your purchase with a tone poem disc :)
Oh, tone-poems, now! the following are Essential!!
Valse triste, Opus 44 No. 1
Pohjola's daughter (Pohjolan tytär), Opus 49
Night-Ride and Sunrise (Öinen ratsastus & auringon nousu), Opus 55
Luonnotar, Opus 70
Tapiola, Opus 112
And the incidental music to The Tempest is below the green lemon, as well.
The Oceanides is my favorite. :)
Valse Triste (not really a tone poem, but popular)
The fourth... what to make of that last movement??
This symphony is, in general, the odd-man-out in the cycle as a whole. It doesn't endear itself to you in the way the others so immediately can. 'Dark', 'cold', 'brooding', 'melancholy' - all these words have been used to describe it, and rightly so. It seems so desperately sad, particularly in the third movement. Painfully so, almost.
The fourth movement is just totally baffling to me.
Surprises me that you say this. I hear the fourth movement as pretty inevitable after its predecessors. It's almost as though what's most co-ordinated and lyrical from the first three movements is making an attempt to bring light to this darkest of Sibelius' symphonies before it closes. It's very Mahlerian, in a way - I hear parallels between this final movement and the scherzo of Mahler's Fifth.
I would go so far as to say it sounds sick.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2Bgo8tWiEL._SS500_.jpg)
Just been through this set again (15cds), and again. Can't get to grips of the two cds which are jam packed with Sibelius' lieder. As dandy as Von Otter and Groop are, the songs just don't appeal at all and my interest was quickly lost. 'Till Havs' is still my favourite song but it needs to be in the male voice for me, that goes to a lot of these songs.
What say, I heard there's a huge project in the pipelines. Anyone know who's doing what and are they starting from Scratch? As the above set covers the majority of the orchestral works. Hope the new project can justify an outlay, hope so.
What say, I heard there's a huge project in the pipelines. Anyone know who's doing what and are they starting from Scratch? As the above set covers the majority of the orchestral works. Hope the new project can justify an outlay, hope so.
That's it,
I have most of the first two planned issues and I can see this doing my head in being a completist....just like this Sony 60cd Beethoven Box is doing my head in, I sit up at nights thinking about the other 25 cds to complete every note :D Sad, but true. But I suppose 60cds is a fair old slice of Beethoven, so I mustn't think too hard about the other works.
I guess everyone has a different 'biting point' with these symphonies; for me, it was No. 2 (I never really 'got' No. 1 for quite some time). And thanks for the link to the Maazel. :)
Can't get to grips of the two cds which are jam packed with Sibelius' lieder. As dandy as Von Otter and Groop are, the songs just don't appeal at all and my interest was quickly lost.
You think so? I thought the mixture of the two keys (I'm not really sure which exactly, but it sounds like two keys) lends it a farcical air.
Right now, I would recommend Vanska/Lahti SO on BIS
Surprises me that you say this. I hear the fourth movement as pretty inevitable after its predecessors. It's almost as though what's most co-ordinated and lyrical from the first three movements is making an attempt to bring light to this darkest of Sibelius' symphonies before it closes. It's very Mahlerian, in a way - I hear parallels between this final movement and the scherzo of Mahler's Fifth.
The Oceanides is the one I obsess most over, too. The ones which I consider very important:
En Saga
The Dryad
Pohjola's Daughter
Finlandia
Night Ride and Sunrise
The Bard
Tapiola
The Oceanides
Luonnotar
Lemminkäinen Suite (a collection)
Scènes Historiques I & II (collections)
Valse Triste (not really a tone poem, but popular)
There are a few hidden gems...
The Wood Nymph Op.15 is one. It's a tremendous piece and I can't understand why it's not recorded more often. It should be in every Sibelian's collection.
I'm not sure Salonen really has baldy's measure, anyway.
"Baldy"? Oh the indignity . . . .
Right now, I would recommend Vanska/Lahti SO on BIS ...
Whilecheatingdoing some comparative listening in order to join in M Forever's new Mystery Orchestra thread, I dug out Sanderling's account of the Second Symphony (Brilliant Classics reissue). Skipping ahead to the section which corresponds to that of the clips posted in M's thread - and with volume up all the way and headphones on - I noticed something weird: a fast string section playing something entirely different to Sibelius, only VERY, VERY faintly in the quiet point in the third movement between the fading of the timpani and the oboe theme's entry (1' 30" approx.). I 'rewound' a few times: it was still there. WTF? :o
Is this just a shoddy reissue fault, or can anyone with the original set confirm or deny the appearance of this 'ghost' string section. ???
Are you absolutely certain it's not some kind of residual decay or echo or something?
What are the recording's origins? Is it live, or perhaps a radio relay? Sometimes performances taken from radio relays can have momentary fade-in from another station.
... the effect described by Mark is probably an analog tape print-through. That may no be the correct technical term in English though. What it means is that sometimes over the years, layers of analog tape tightly wound against each other influence the magnetization of neighboring layers and leave such ghost images. Those who still know MC know this unwanted effect. It is really hard to get rid of, too.
I know a lot of Finlandias. There can be only one.
The Wood Nymph Op.15 is one. It's a tremendous piece and I can't understand why it's not recorded more often. It should be in every Sibelian's collection.The wood nymph has always been top of the tops of my favorite Sibelius orchestral works, so mighty and traaaagic in the end!
The wood nymph has always been top of the tops of my favorite Sibelius orchestral works
I have often said that it is a pity that Sibelius was Finnish! His music has been deeply misunderstood. While his language was far from modern, his thinking, as far as form and the treatment of materials is concerned, was ahead of its time. While Varese is credited with opening the way for new sonorities, Sibelius has himself pursued a profound reassessment of the formal and structural problems of composition. I do not think it is fair that he has been considered as a conservative...His harmonies have a resonant, almost spectral quality. You find an attention to sonority in Sibelius works which is actually not so far removed from that which would appear long after in the work of Grisey or Murail...For me, the crucial aspect of this work remains his conception of continuity. In Tapiola, above all, the way genuine processes are created using very limited materials is pretty exceptional.
In reading The Cambridge Companion to Sibelius, in Julian Anderson's chapter on Sibelius's influence on contemporary music, I found the following quote from Magnus Lindberg:
Later Anderson quotes an anecdote related by Morton Feldman about how much he and Takemitsu liked Sibelius to illustrate his (Feldman's) dictum that "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people who you think are conservative might really be radical."
Beautiful!He also cites a long letter from Per Nørgård to Sibelius in 1954 expressing Nørgård's admiration for him and surprise on discovering that Sibelius was composing with a metamorphic technique decades earlier:
Indeed, his letter continues, he is increasingly aware of the fact that Sibelius's music is virtually limitless in its depth and novel implications, in contrast to the work of other more recent composers. "You may imagine, against this background, my feelings on discovering this new, genuinely symphonic principle fully blossoming in works normally labelled under the heading of an earlier historical period of music! ...It's very possible that you have known about what I'm trying to say for a long time--and understood that it was the way it should be."
Sibelius' mastery of temporal architecture makes him a "composer's composer" par excellence.
Later Anderson quotes an anecdote related by Morton Feldman about how much he and Takemitsu liked Sibelius to illustrate his (Feldman's) dictum that "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives. The people who you think are conservative might really be radical."
I like The Bard and Scene with Cranes (the latter is often played as a stand alone piece).
I need to remember, this evening, to pack up the Lenny/NY Phil symphonies set to fetch back in to the office; want to revisit that.That's a good un! Maybe I'll follow suit, and take them sequentially. Though I've already resumed some Sibelius listening, with Maazel's Tapiola and Segerstam's 4th.
Hello everyone,
Some of JS' small orchestral pieces are really really beautyful. They aren't played or heard too often... Do some come to your mind?
I love the beauty, and resignation, in Prospero, from the incidental music to The Tempest:[/i]
The second movement of Scènes Historiques Op.25, Scena, is quite appealing to me; the drama and militant majesty.
Maybe Sibelius just wrote "bells" in the score and Blomstedt interpreted this to mean tubular bells? What instrument is it played on in other recordings?
Thanks for the listing, Sarge. IIRC Berglund's other recordings also use glockenspiel, as do Rozhdestvensky, Rattle, Sanderling, and Maazel/Pittsburg
But it was Bernstein's NYPO recording that turned me on to this piece. Perhaps that has something to do with why glockenspiel in the 4th movement sounds wrong to my ears.
My sources on this say that the manuscript score says "Glocken," which is "Bells" in German. Some think that he must have meant bel, i.e. tubular bells, but some argue that he could have abbreviated the word "Glockenspiel." Bottom line: a puzzle, no more likely to be solved definitively than we are likely to discover the lost score for the 8th Symphony.
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so? Mines done by Scottish National Orchestra under Sir Alexander Gibson: Nightride and Sunrise. Recorded in Glasgow City Halls in 1978 (released six years later I think) - there's more mystery and curiosity with the Gibson version, we know we're on the journey the title depicts and oh what a glorious sunrise!
The Rattle recording with the Philharmonia is clearly better in every respect. Better played, better recorded, more characterized. Not that the Gibson version is at all bad - far from it. It is a very decent performance. This is one of the things (one of the few things, actually) that I think Rattle got totally "right".
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so?
For example, which performance of Snofrid, Op. 29 do you recommend? It has fast become one of my favourite pieces ever. I have only the one version, Vanska with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra, so I'd like to know what the forum thinks before I buy another of the same in the hope of something better
And what is your favourite tone poem - and why it so?
Oceanides... words cannot describe. The Bard has a similar organic buildup to a big event in the second half, but is a different atmosphere - warmer, delicate, naturalistic in feel (the Oceanides in comparison sounds almost ghostly). Something about the writing makes it comfort me like little else - it is stylistically a mile away from the earlier tone poems with all their turmoil.
I think there is one: The Snowshoed Sibelius (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,341.0.html)
I will merge the threads if there are no objections.
Q
I rate Tapiola among the finest tone poems written by anyone. I only have the Beecham recording from 1955.
Tapiola, The Oceanides, and Symphony No. 7 on one disc, conducted by Beecham.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51y5To%2B2tnL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I have the earlier non-GROC CD, a 1990 release. I don't know if it makes sense to get this remaster.
It is the best performance because it is the best performance. Period.
I don't think any come close to the quality of the symphonies.
My point was not in defence of the tone poems. It is perfectly fine that someone likes the symphonies much better.
My point was that if we are going to talk about their comparative inherent quality, we need to justify our opinions with deeper arguments.
I like Maazel's VPO Tapiola because of the very slow phrasing of the storm sequence.
A lot of the stuff in the Ashlenazy box is indeed very exciting, thanks to the driven, intense character of the performances and the great contributions of the orchestra, especially in #1 (the ending of the first movement really sounds like an avalanche or huge chunks ofbrassice breaking off a glacier. But there is also a lot of very fine detail in Sibelius' music and a lot of the musical gestures are very terse and to the point, and that is where Ashkenazy with all the sonic excitement he generates from the orchestra sometimes is not so good. You should also listen to Maazel's WP cycle which has a lot of that kind of excitement (and very massive playing in some pieces, again particularly in the 1st) but more detail and specific athmosphere. It won't hurt you to get to know Berglund's HPO and Sanderling's BSO cycles either, believe me!
The Third Symphony, dedicated to [Granville] Bantock, was completed on his return and given its première in Helsinki before September [1907] was out, alongside Pohjola’s Daughter and the suite from Belshazzar’s Feast. The last two were received more enthusiastically by the audience than the austere, pared-down textures of the symphony, with its oddly elusive atmosphere, restrained mid-nineteenth-century orchestration and telescoped scherzo-and-finale. [Karl] Flodin, though, was delighted, calling the composer ‘a Classical master’ and the music ‘revolutionary, new and truly Sibelian’. Flodin was right — the Third Symphony was indeed a quietly radical work, where all the most extraordinary activity occurred below the surface, unlike in the Second with its grander, romantic mien. Harold Truscott believed it to be the first Sibelius symphony to evince ‘complete mastery’ and was ‘the key to all that followed it’, while others like Julian Herbage have commented on its innovative key-scheme, harmonic side-slips and the individuality of the finale. In many ways Symphony № 3 accorded with Busoni’s ideal of ‘Young Classicality’, a return to the musical spirit of the past and not to be confused with the mannered neo-classicism that became the rage amongst composers of the post-World War I years. As such, the Third — the first of the truly great Sibelius symphonies — has been generally misunderstood and did not succeed with audiences or the bulk of critics to anything like the degree of the First or Second. So complete was the incomprehension that greeted the work that its lack of success was at least partially attributed by many to the composer’s use of folk elements, whereas in fact this was intentionally the most cosmopolitan and international score Sibelius had yet attempted to compose.
I have been fortunate never to hear anything by the Mighty Finn answering to the description 'fluff'.
I don't listen to the tone poems much. I don't think any come close to the quality of the symphonies.
Haven't given those pieces enough attention, for whatever reason; hope to rectify that with this disc:
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2004/May04/Sibelius_tone_5857852.jpg)
A nice two-fer, indeed!
(http://rogerbourland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/ISmeetsJS.jpg)Oh, yes. "ISmeetsJS.jpg" - Who's I.S.?
Who's I.S.?
You can't mean it.I mean it. I know nothing about I.S. - You know nothing about Haskell programming. This is perfectly allowed.
I mean it. I know nothing about I.S. - You know nothing about Haskell programming. This is perfectly allowed.
Am I the only one that thinks the 2nd movement of the 1st symphony is so beautiful that nothing compares to it?
Not knowing who "I.S." is, is allowed, but it's surprising.In the real world (the world I know), knowing who Jean Sibelius is would be surprising. Not to talk about an old man on a b/w jpg picture named "IS..." and looking like Polands General Jaruzelsky.
In the real world (the world I know) . . . .
Bild-Orientierung: 1
Datum der Aufnahme: 2003:08:27 14:47:08
Bildbeschreibung: PEJE03 19610910 JÄRVENPÄÄ, FINLAND: Russian-born composer Igor Stravinsky lays flowers on Finnish composer Jean Sibelius's grave at Sibelius's home, Ainola, in Järvenpää, Finland, on September 10, 1961. LEHTIKUVA / PERTTI JENYTIN /rl
Benutzte Software: Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Erstellt hat das Bild: Pertti Jenytin
I can tell I know nothing about Igor Stravinsky except the names of a few works. I know nothing about 898798 other composers, I know a few things about maybe 50. And there are a lot others than IS to explore first.
Once you do explore IS, you'll wish you had tried him much earlier.Indeed! Stravinsky is not just one among 898,798, but one of the very few most prolifically inventive, influential, and masterful composers to grace our world with music. You might start with his century-defining ballet, The Rite of Spring. Any of Boulez's discs will do, or Solti's powerhouse CSO recording, or you might go with Abbado's bargain twofer featuring all of the famed early ballets. But this is a thread about JS, so enough said on little Igor's account.
Having newly discovered this thread and its beguiling title, I'm disappointed to find no mention of The lonely ski trail.IIRC (CD not available) it's one track e.g. on the BIS Wood Nymph CD, with a narrator? Oh well, it's a piece I always skipped because of the talking. I don't understand finnish additionally...
I am really enjoying Sibelius' Symphony No. 7 in C
Is it just me - it reminds me a lot of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie?
Oh well, it's a piece I always skipped because of the talking.
I think there is a similar RVW work that I also cannot enjoy due to this...
As a certifiable Sibelius nut, I have 16 of the 23 cycles shown above, plus a couple of others,
As for the 7th, I've never considered it similar to Ein Alpensinfonie (not one of my favorite works) but might well give the Strauss a hearing with the comparison in mind. Chambernut, what makes them seem similar to you?
Pray tell, which ones are they?!The complete cycle by Rozhdestvensky and the incomplete cycle by Bernstein on DGG and Karajan on EMI, and I'm a couple short of Maazel's cycle with Pittsburg. Like I said, I'm a nut on JS--the only composer I have more recordings of is Beethoven!
I don't know David? Please keep in mind, I'm a veritable newbie in the Sibelius arena, and particularly Sibelius 7th! It is the atmosphere and mood of the symphony. Reminded me of a vast northern landscape, and I got to think of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie. Whether I'm in my own little world or not, both works are my favorites respectably for both composers (Symphony No. 2 coming in a close 2nd for Sibelius, and Don Quixote for Strauss). :)Well, Donkey Hotey is one of my favorite Strauss pieces, but the second is my least favorite of JS's symphonies (though it's still pretty good). I will give the Strauss a shot later today if I have the time.
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I am really enjoying Sibelius' Symphony No. 7 in C
Is it just me - it reminds me a lot of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie?
updated - Maazel Pittsburgh & Rozhdestvensky added
Thanks to DavidRoss for the reminder.
Here's a list of (almost) all available Sibelius Symphony cycles. (Very roughly sorted (top to bottom) acc. to my personal favorites. [Some I have not heard - e.g. Segerstam I, Berglund I & III, Jaervi I, Collins, Saraste...]
"Berglund II", despite being next to 'last', is safely recommendable... I merely added it late.
Oramo's Sibelius (Erato/Warner) has not (yet?) been issued in a box.Davis III (LSO live), good but overrated, isn't out as a box, either... Davis II I won't include unless I have to. (I.e. to fill the fourth spot in the last row.)
I've found the Sixtus Ehrling/Stockholm cycle still exists (at least on German Amazon (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026ADH/nectarandambr-21)). Anyone have that?
Daverz pointed out the Rozhdestvensky cycle, available in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1424517).
What was I thinking when I wrote "Birmingham" instead of "Bournemouth" for Berglund II? Probably "Rattle". :-) Corrected, thanks to Peregrine
David, what is just plain wrong about the Ashkenazy/LPO? I've never heard it. Did he do a set with them? Or is that a reference to the Philharmonia? If it is, I'm very interested in what you have to say - why is it plain wrong?Not the LPO, the LSO (London Symphony Orchestra). And it was a mistake on my part (should proof my posts, eh?)! Don't know how "LSO" got in there--still thinking of Colin Davis, perhaps, whose Sibelius (like most of his recordings?) isn't so much bad as chronically overrated, especially by Anglophiles and the British press. The set in question is with the Philharmonia Orchestra.
Excellent work! Let me also mention Finnish Radio SO/Saraste's second (studio) cycle available on Finlandia as 6 individual discs.
The Oramo/CBSO cycle is available as a set from Erato (got it in the mail yesterday but haven't listened to it yet).
Found it. Thanks! And Saraste has TWO cycles?? Which is the one I included? (And which is the other?)The one you pictured is the live set recorded on tour in St. Petersburg. As I recall it's really quite good, though I've seldom heard it since I've so many others that I usually reach for. Maybe it's time for another go. I know nothing about another Saraste set.
Separately . . . when I first popped this disc into the drive (disc 2 of the Blomstedt set), it was with the intention of listening to Tapiola. My aim nearly turned as I heard the opening measures of the Second Symphony, which I haven't heard in a while, and which sounded invitingly fresh!Worth a listen, Karl, as is his/their fine reading of the Third.
Found it. Thanks! And Saraste has TWO cycles?? Which is the one I included?
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Thanks, Sergeant--so the other recordings on Warner/Elatus/Finlandia are all one-and-the-same Saraste cycle?!
I seem to have ended up with no less than twelve of the above complete cycles in my collection, I realise...
Upon further investigation I came upon the Saraste's first cycle (including Kullervo) offered at Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-3-6-7/dp/B000026FWA/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233615797&sr=8-20) on two twofers...well, not exactly twofers now since the used price for the box that includes Kullervo is more than I want to pay right now.
Sarge
The one you pictured is the live set recorded on tour in St. Petersburg.
Wurstwasser: "Ashkenazy's Russian cycle????" Which one are you talking about.Oh, what I meant was "cycles by russian conductors" :D. Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Where does RCA come in the picture? Ultima was a super-budget (or at least budget)-priced Warner sublabel... so that's the same stuff that's on Elatus/Apex... which is the same stuff that was on Finlandia. No? These even have the Finlandia logo on the cover.
I don't know David? Please keep in mind, I'm a veritable newbie in the Sibelius arena, and particularly Sibelius 7th! It is the atmosphere and mood of the symphony. Reminded me of a vast northern landscape, and I got to think of Strauss' Eine Alpensinfonie. Whether I'm in my own little world or not, both works are my favorites respectably for both composers (Symphony No. 2 coming in a close 2nd for Sibelius, and Don Quixote for Strauss). :)A follow up, ChamberNut:
A follow up, ChamberNut:Thanks David.
I listened to Jochum's Alpensinfonie yesterday (at least the first part--I confess my mind wandered and soon my body followed!) and heard a lot of Wagner and some proto-Rosenkavalier, but no Sibelius. But if Alpensinfonie seems like a landscape to you, and the 7th also, then I see why you might regard them as similar.
Trust Me™Reminds me of:
I think we're all waiting for the price to drop.
Has anyone any thoughts on the new Ashkenazy cycle? It's really expensive in the UK and I have no strong feelings either way towards his first cycle so i'm in no rush unless I can be convinced otherwise!
Interesting interviews of Berglund, Vänskä, Rattle, Salonen, Davis etc. on Sibelius in 1999:It's a pleasure to read that article again. Colin Davis's comments certainly clarify why he's clueless. I like Rattle's comment that
http://www.fmq.fi/articles/ar_1999_1_vs.html
...if it was [sic] possible to concentrate a Wagner opera into ten minutes, then maybe you would come up with the first movements of the Fourth Symphony. Something maybe could connect Sibelius to the third act of Parsifal. But Sibelius is so concentrated and exact. Wagner may be very exact but he is not concentrated," he laughs.
"With Sibelius you feel that if one drop touches your skin it will burn right through to the bone."
Outside of the gorgeously recorded orchestral sound (RCA and the LSO seem to strike a chord with me, ever since Previn's Vaughan Williams cycle), this is Sibelius from a relaxing spa (or as has been suggested, a geriatric ward) -- perhaps only ephemerally and superficially evocative of rugged landscapes, savage myths, but not the least of "cool, clear water". Davis and the LSO make "beautiful music" of these incredible Sibelian inventions in performances stripped of spontaneity and milked for all the lushness and warmth of sonority that can possibly be mustered. I'm not altogether convinced these performances even work as drama, especially for the novice listener. However, one can certainly bask in the pure sound of it all.I've not heard this particular disc of symphonic poems, but I have some of the symphony recordings they made and your assessment tallies with my impressions. See? We can agree sometimes!
See? We can agree sometimes!Well, by my tally, we've agreed once and disagreed once -- I'd like to see a larger sampling. :P ;)
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.Ah, so you like it shaken, not stirred.
Here's another mutual disagreement....Yep--that's one of my faves. I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated. Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato). ;)
If it's stirring then I probably won't like it.::) ::) ::)
Yep--that's one of my faves. I like my Sibelius crisp and clean, with all voices clearly delineated. Not just Sibelius, but a general preference for most music, especially of the more thickly scored variety--one reason why Boulez is one of my mostest favoritest conductors (with apologies to Cato). ;)
Just in from the Associated Press:
"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".
Good job.
Just in from the Associated Press:
"Obama taps Sebelius for HHS secretary".
his piano music was meant for home entertainment, not ART.
Better are his songs, especially later ones.
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs? I'm a snob, I can't help it.Just get this disc:
That's interesting. I've never heard anything about the songs! (And I call myself a Sibelius fan?)
Do any of the piano pieces qualify as ART, so that I could narrow down my search to one or two discs?
I'm not a big fan of the piano music either. Why then, didn't Sibelius write more music for violin since that's an instrument he clearly was fond of? Not to mention bloody good with it! I'm sure I read his Violin Concerto was the most performed concerto for any instrument, or at least most performed 20th century concerto.Probably didn't sell as well...and he was always in need of money.
Unfortunately, for much of the popular Symphony No. 5 it's "Hum Along with Sir Colin". Though it's become something of a given throughout Davis' vast discography, I've never heard his humming as disconcertingly conspicuous as here!
Maybe the recording engineers assigned him his own microphone for this one?They should put him into a glass box.
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I heard Sibelius Piano Quintet on XM yesterday and would love to get a recording of it. Any recommendations?
I avoid buying CDs with Mr. Davis because of his humming. He's annoying.
Forget the humming. Davis is one of the finest Sibelius interpreters out there.
I look in the mirror and see the ruthlessness of life, and nevertheless find the strength to go on with it. Sibelius was happy in a crowd and depressed when he was alone. I'm like that, too.
The second movement [of the 4th Symphony] begins gaily enough, but then something bewildering and horrible happens. To me, the last pages of the score describe Death, with no false consolations. It's like a sleigh that has run off the road. Sibelius' loved ones lie around it, dead, and he feels he has let them down.
That is Sibelius, smoothing over the graves of his loved ones with his bare hands.
There, you have an agonized Sibelius riding through the night because he cannot sleep. Along the way, he sees goblins and ghosts and breaks out in a cold sweat. And then the sun comes up. The nightmare is over, at least for a while. (On "Night Ride & Sunrise")
Wow, that sounds like great fun! PS, we have a number of people from Finland here, who can give you advice on your trip, I'm sure. :D
--Bruce
I will be flying to Finland this September to attend the annual Sibelius Festival at Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland. On the menu are works of the composer's middle period, including the 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies. There will also be tone poems, orchestral songs and chamber music the last day of the festival.
Now that sounds exciting! How many days does the festival last, Erik?
It is three evenings (Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and one morning (Sunday) of chamber works. Here are the details:
http://www.sinfonialahti.fi/sibelius/en_GB/sibelius
I have the cycle with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Royal Stockholm Orchestra it is on warner and the recordings are from 1952/53. It is my favourite cycle - the one I listen to most.
Favourite individual performances.
1 Kajanus
2 Beecham on BBC Legends or Biddulph
3 Okko Kamu (DGG)/Kajanus
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own)
5 Sargent BBC SO
6 Anthony Collins
7 Beecham/Koussevitsky
Tapiola: Mazel/Segerstam
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own)
I will be flying to Finland this September to attend the annual Sibelius Festival at Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland. On the menu are works of the composer's middle period, including the 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies. There will also be tone poems, orchestral songs and chamber music the last day of the festival.
Of course, it will be the Sinfonia Lahti playing the music under their (out-going) music director Jukka Pekka Saraste.
I can't wait to be bombarded by Sibelius in his home country...
I have the cycle with Sixten Ehrling conducting the Royal Stockholm Orchestra it is on warner and the recordings are from 1952/53. It is my favourite cycle - the one I listen to most.
Favourite individual performances.
1 Kajanus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000006KIO/goodmusicguide-20) (OOP)
2 Beecham on BBC Legends (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002NY8EY/goodmusicguide-20) or Biddulph (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007N8Y/goodmusicguide-20)
3 Okko Kamu (DGG) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006LSRU/nectarandambrUK-21)/Kajanus (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001SF6/goodmusicguide-20) (OOP)
4 Beecham (Dutton - in a class of its own) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SMMZ/goodmusicguide-20) (same as on KOCH?)
5 Sargent BBC SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008ETYV/goodmusicguide-20)
6 Anthony Collins (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000NDFKDQ/goodmusicguide-20)
7 Beecham (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013FSVDE/goodmusicguide-20)/Koussevitsky (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001AGOLS/nectarandambrUK-21)
Tapiola: Mazel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TTX3/goodmusicguide-20)/Segerstam (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MIXX/goodmusicguide-20)
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VT6P7M/goodmusicguide-20)
[couldn't find that anywhere -- but rubio did.]
Vandermolen's Favorites as available (or not) on Amazon:[/size
Or you could just buy a cycle by Vänskä, Bernstein, Blomstedt, Segerstam, or Berglund and have even better performances of them all. ;)
Four Legends: Thomas Jensen, Royal Danish SO [can't find that anywhere]
Erik and I had some conversation on another forum about symphony cycles. I'd had the Naxos Icelandic set for some years, which seemed adequate if not brilliant. But then I bought the RCA Colin Davis LSO set (not LSO Live) because it was incredibly cheap, and because the Penguin Guide heaped accolades upon its accolades. But I lost interest in it when I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies in that set over-glossy, smooth, and grindingly slow - to an extent that made the Naxos Icelanders sound significantly more enthusiastic, interestingly lively, and more suitably raw.I think most critics have tended to agree that the LSO/RCA Davis set stinks. On the last page, Jens Laurson said he'd only list it if he had to, Victor Carr writes as follows on ClassicsToday:
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
Colin Davis' RCA Sibelius cycle must be ranked among the most unnecessary recording projects of all time. Having already recorded a universally lauded set of Sibelius symphonies and tone poems with the Boston Symphony for Philips, Davis' new undertaking constitutes a sad dilution of his previous success, with its lackluster Symphony No. 2, bland Nos. 3 & 6, and lifeless No. 5. The conductor does replicate his earlier achievements in Nos. 1 & 7, and to a lesser degree in No. 4. However, the London Symphony for the most part doesn't meet the challenge of its Boston competition--certainly not in the shocking ensemble lapses that disfigure parts of the drably rendered Lemminkäinen Suite and Fifth Symphony, which, along with the deadly dull Kullervo form the artistic nadir of the set. The remaining tone poems (with the exception of a confused Pohjola's Daughter) proceed well enough, but some, such as Finlandia, En Saga, and The Oceanides, have been done better by the likes of Järvi, Berglund, Bernstein, and of course, Davis himself. RCA's engineering is of variable quality, with some strangely murky sonics afflicting the Lemminkäinen and Kullervo. Considering that Davis' earlier cycle is available on two Philips Duos, this new one, even with its low price and extra items, is no bargain.
Erik and I had some conversation on another forum about symphony cycles. I'd had the Naxos Icelandic set for some years, which seemed adequate if not brilliant. But then I bought the RCA Colin Davis LSO set (not LSO Live) because it was incredibly cheap, and because the Penguin Guide heaped accolades upon its accolades. But I lost interest in it when I found the 1st and 2nd symphonies in that set over-glossy, smooth, and grindingly slow - to an extent that made the Naxos Icelanders sound significantly more enthusiastic, interestingly lively, and more suitably raw.No, it's not just you. I think the Davis's Sibelius mostly sucks (at least insofar as it's possible for Sibelius's music to be less than splendiferous)...and for exactly the same reasons you fault it. The old Davis/BSO recordings (long praised by many and reason enough for taking British criticism of British conductors with a huge shaker of salt) were partly responsible for my mistaken belief that Sibelius was a dull, superficial, late Romantic--which delayed my appreciation of his magnificent music for decades! :'(
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
No, it's not just you. I think the Davis's Sibelius mostly sucks (at least insofar as it's possible for Sibelius's music to be less than splendiferous)...and for exactly the same reasons you fault it. The old Davis/BSO recordings (long praised by many and reason enough for taking British criticism of British conductors with a huge shaker of salt) were partly responsible for my mistaken belief that Sibelius was a dull, superficial, late Romantic--which delayed my appreciation of his magnificent music for decades! :'(
I also think that the Naxos set by Sakari and the Icelanders is one of the best! (Should have put it in my list of favorite cycles above). And also for the same reasons you cite; I love the raw energy in this set!
Aha, another who thinks the Davis/BSO set is...OVER-RATED? I ike this forum more and more every moment.We're always glad to have another Sibelius fan aboard, dude! (I see you're from Lakeside--no doubt y'all have suffered the same frightening growth the past few decades that's beleaguered North County, I presume? Is Dudley's Bakery still in business?
I would never suggest that set to anyone trying to get into Sieblius. Davis is asleep at the wheel too much throughout it. And I can ndver forgive him for the lack of horns during the famous 'swan theme' of the final movement of the 5th symphony. You can hardly hear them, and it's perhaps THE moment that most people wait for in this work.
Of course, Davis/LSO Live is another story...this is an excellent cycle.
We're always glad to have another Sibelius fan aboard, dude! (I see you're from Lakeside--no doubt y'all have suffered the same frightening growth the past few decades that's beleaguered North County, I presume? Is Dudley's Bakery still in business?
Dudley's is indeed still in business! Lakeside has experienced growth, I suppose, but it still feels like a small town...just how I like it.Cool! Back when I was a young fellow living in Escondido (and gas was 25¢/gallon), I used to sprint up the hill on weekend mornings for some of that fresh-baked goodness. Back then the line might go out the door. Nowadays I expect it stretches halfway to Santee!
Well, I don't find the 7th by Davis and the BSO dull at all (Pentatone Classics disc). In fact, that catapulted Sibelius' 7th in my all time favorite symphonies.That's great, Ray. Don't know if this is a case of different strokes, or if the Pentatone recording differs from the one on Philips, but any recording that helps us to appreciate Old Baldy is a good one in my book!
Well, I don't find the 7th by Davis and the BSO dull at all (Pentatone Classics disc). In fact, that catapulted Sibelius' 7th in my all time favorite symphonies.
Is that just me? Does everyone else think the RCA Davis set is the bees' knees, like Penguin?
Don't know if this is a case of different strokes,
Tapiola and Blomstedt: I'm lovin' it!I'll be there before the day is out. Time for Sakari's 6th now. ;)
Damn but it's one of the most compelling openings in the entire repertoire--and it just goes on, building bit by bit, cell by cell, like nothing anyone had ever even imagined before, and which despite my familiarity, I cannot help but get drawn into whenever I hear it.
If you're looking for a fantastic 1st, and 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, performed with Romantic fire and sweep, you cannot do better than Bernstein's cycle with the NYPO from the '60s (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Leonard-Bernstein/dp/B00008PW43/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1248282051&sr=1-1). (The other 3 symphonies are performed well, too!)
This be truth indeed.
Could we focus for a moment on just the 1st, and gather opinions? You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Could we focus for a moment on just the 1st, and gather opinions? You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Maazel/WP
Sarge
Holy cow: 8 Responses in 4 minutes or so. You certainly hit a nerve.
Hmmm...I'll have to pop it into the plaer this afternoon to see if I experiece any new found appreciation. I do think his readings of the 3rd and 6th in this cycle are actually pretty good, by the way.
They are. The negative comments about Davis and Boston really disturb me....well, actually they don't ;D I don't care what anyone else thinks. Davis' 3, 6 and 7 are among the great Sibelius interpretations (the Brits aren't wrong here). That Sixth is my all-time favorite. Davis opened up that work for me; made me see the light. Everything about it is perfect. If the Sixth is Sibelius in Mozartian mode, then that explains why Davis does it so well.
About the RCA set: greatest Kullervo ever! Davis' slow, enormous, majestic first movement is just unbelievably awesome.
Just thought I'd chime in to provide some fairness and balance :D
Sarge
What do you think of the squelched brass during the 'swan theme' in his reading of the 5th?
Either Segerstam/Helsinki or Davis/LSO.
Thanks! Great! Keep 'em coming and we'll add 'em up in a day or two, to get the Definitive Answer.
That's the nice thing about music...definitive answers can always be reached.
Hate it. His Boston 1, 2, and 5 I no longer listen to.
Sarge
Yes. We will prove it, once and for all, so there will never be any argument about the matter ever again.
But which one? Which one, of your two?
Oy vey, that's hard. By just a hair...Segerstam/Helsinki.
You're going to spend 6 months in a wooden hut in Lapland, and you can only take one version of Sibelius 1. Which one? (DR, I presume, would opt for Bernstein and the NYPO.)
Hahaha, well I find this completely rational. And now I'm thinking...am I over-hating the Davis/BSO cycle? I guess now that I think about it (especially after "rediscovering" his good go at the 7th just this morning), perhaps its just the 1st, 2nd and 5th I have issues with...
Well, there really is no perfect Sibelius cycle, is there? Segerstam/Helsinki missed being pefect, though, by one symphony: the 2nd. It is such a lukewarm, dragging performance. It's almost weird how affected it is. I am not sure what Segerstam was trying to acheive by sucking this symphony dry of its lusty romantic asperations, but the results were not good. But where the 2nd is lacking, he lets things go much better with the 1st and indeed the 5th. (Segerstam's 5th is, I believe, the best currently on disc.)
Of course, you and I doubtless have very different ideas of "perfection." I'm one of those fellows who doesn't think there is such a thing as a "perfect" or "definitive" performance or interpretation. I think that great music is open to a variety of interpretations that are equally valid, and that different performers offer us different views of a piece that is greater than any one approach can capture fully...or even the same performer at different times in life will offer different interpretations informed by learning, life experience, and personal spiritual growth, all of which are reflected in the performance.
Tapiola and Blomstedt: I'm lovin' it!Of course you're loving it. Anybody except a few completely lost souls loves Tapiola with Blomstedt.
I'm no expert at Sibelius' symphonies, but I think you forgot Järvi/Gothenburg as an important nowadays Sibelius interpreter.
Sure, any one piece of music is open to interpretation, but there is BAD interpretation as well as good, and Segerstams' 2nd symphony is, to me, a bad one. Taking a ho-hum approach to Sibelius 2 is certainly how he wanted it to sound, but I find little worth in it.Hmmmm. The 2nd is my least favorite so doesn't get much play...but Segerstam is one of my favorites among the more Romantic interpreters. Hard to believe he wanted a boring rendition; usually he goes in the other direction, emphasizing drama rather than just letting the music speak for itself. Guess his second with the HPO is long overdue for a spin. 8)
Well, you don't like the 4th? This fine mysterious piece? Give it a try with Segerstam.
Hmmmm. The 2nd is my least favorite so doesn't get much play...but Segerstam is one of my favorites among the more Romantic interpreters. Hard to believe he wanted a boring rendition; usually he goes in the other direction, emphasizing drama rather than just letting the music speak for itself. Guess his second with the HPO is long overdue for a spin. 8)
My problem - well, it's hardly a problem, as such - is that I'm in the process of discovering an endless ocean of Handel, Vivaldi, and baroque in general, that I love so much that it hurts; and there's so much of it to explore and so little time. By contrast, there's Sibelius 4, 6 and 7, all of which have had a fair amount of my time already, with little success. My revisiting of the 6th today suggests to me that I haven't changed much in this area; so ... I'm not keen to keep pushing at this one.
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8)
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8)
At first the fourth symphony sounded like nothing more than a big pile of notes,
The first recording of the Fourth I ever heard, was HvK, too 8);D ;D ;D >:D
Hahahaha, Karajan's 4th is often considered one of the best...
Hey what a coincidence! :D
I've been intrigued by the fourth since the first time I heard it, and learned to love it soon after. Maazel/WP.
A former gmg member sent me a copy of Maazel, and it is sweet! 8) Segerstam is perfectly fine for me though, of course that is my favorite cycle.
Damn! All this recent discussion about Sibelius is kicking my jones into high gear. Must...hear...Sibelius!
Well if you are going to have Bernstein, you might as well add Ormandy and Barbirolli, I might be the absolutely one to find positive things to say but it would certainly contrast the overwhelming modernist list that you have now Elgarian. :)
Barbirolli, however, is by no means a daft suggestion.
I would urge you NOT to give up on symphonies 4, 6 and 7.
Never, indeed, to one whose handle is Elgarian 0:) 8)
I only have the Davis remake of the 3rd, and haven't really enjoyed it--this thread is making it clear to me I should acquire another. Suggestions? (Right now I'd be inclining to buying the Blomstedt set.)
Exactly so; it puzzles me somewhat that I've never heard any Barbirolli Sibelius as far as I recall. But I suppose many of my omissions in all walks of life would puzzle me if I chose to contemplate them.
It's hard for me to believe that Segerstam wanted full-throated romanticism in this reading of the second. he delivers it in the 1st and 5th, but something is strangly lacking here. It's as if he wanted to do something different to what is usually listed as people's favorite symphony of the 7. It's like he wanted to go for some "classical" style approach and de-emphasize the dramatic qualities in favor of something else. I'm not sure what that something else is, but his interpretation just does not work for me. I remember the first time I heard it, I was massively dissapointed.Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?) -- I played through this 2nd and I sure get what you're talking about. To me, Segerstam's conception is very expansive and subjugates structure to the beauty of the sounds--particularly the HPO winds and brass, splendidly refurbished since Berglund recorded his cycle with the same orchestra back in the '80s. It's grand and lush, but not especially dramatic. From my perspective it works reasonably well, but it flags a bit in the fourth movement. Where he really ought to hold more tension, via crisp attacks in the brass, strings, and timpani, he's too soft instead of edgy. Instead of energy building to a climax, he lets things drift a bit and get somewhat...er...flaccid.
Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?) -- I played through this 2nd and I sure get what you're talking about. To me, Segerstam's conception is very expansive and subjugates structure to the beauty of the sounds--particularly the HPO winds and brass, splendidly refurbished since Berglund recorded his cycle with the same orchestra back in the '80s. It's grand and lush, but not especially dramatic. From my perspective it works reasonably well, but it flags a bit in the fourth movement. Where he really ought to hold more tension, via crisp attacks in the brass, strings, and timpani, he's too soft instead of edgy. Instead of energy building to a climax, he lets things drift a bit and get somewhat...er...flaccid.
I think Segerstam is striving for some deep, spiritual introspection--informed, perhaps, by looking forward to the fourth symphony--but it seems a bit out of place, at least for those accustomed to the tightening tension of more overtly dramatic interpretations, like Bernstein/NYPO, Szell/RCO, or Barbirolli/RPO. I don't think it's bad...just different; but I can certainly see how a listener expecting a blazing statement of symphonic drama would be disappointed by that finale. Such listeners would definitely be better served by one of the three just mentioned--and they should definitely stay away from what is becoming my favorite recording of the second, Bernstein's last with the WP: a glorious example of everything wrong with the excessive, indulgent Lenny in his later years...and everything right as well--in spades!
Speaking of the 4th, the first 4th I truly, deeply (insert melancholic violin solo) loved was Karajan - but not by any means the DG. It's the 1953 Philharmonia 4th on EMI, still my favourite. The DG version was too wall-of-sound for me to start with, although I do appreciate it now.
Okay, Bruce (right? Bruce?)
I owe you (and Bruce—bhodges, I mean) an apology for creating a certain amount of confusion, Dave. I didn't remember Erik's actual name, he being a new acquaintance, and me being awful at new-names-attached-to-new-user-IDs. So my referring to him as "new Bruce" was an allusion to the Philosophy Department at the University of Wollamaloo, where a chap named Michael is called Bruce just to keep it clear:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/5672992.jpg)
Found this offered by MDT at just under £20 yesterday, and I'm seriously considering it. Although I don't think I ever heard Barbirolli play any Sibelius, this comes from the era when I was discovering Sibelius, (and indeed attending some of Sir John's Halle concerts), so there are additional reasons for trying it, to see how it fits, today.
As far as I can discover, his version of the 1st is regarded as a cracker; and this might be a nice to way to get it - with the others thrown in effectively as bonuses.
I have this set and recommend it warmly. Barbirolli was a great conductor especially in Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.
Thanks for the comments, folks. Bearing your comments in mind, and my own Barbirolli-ish inclinations, I think at this price I'll be daft not to get it.
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Update: How about voting on favorite Versions of individual Symphonies, which I'll include here, too??
Yep; he was Swedish, not Roman! ;)
p.s. Isn't it Sixten, and not Sixtus Ehrling?
Yep; he was Swedish, not Roman! ;)
IS Swedish - still going strong!As in new recordings? He has given us much valuable, but I admit to thinking he was dead since I cannot seem to remember stumbling across his name for a long time.
As in new recordings? He has given us much valuable, but I admit to thinking he was dead since I cannot seem to remember stumbling across his name for a long time.
I have never been much of a fan of Colin Davis's Sibelius symphony recordings (LSO or Boston SO) - finding them largely unengaging and overrated.Reading this far, I was nodding emphatically. Among all my various box sets (I mean of anything, not just Sibelius), the Davis LSO/RCA set is probably the single biggest dud. So much so that it's almost left me with Davisibeliophobia: I'd cross the road to avoid going near a Colin Davis Sibelius CD. So these comments here ...
However, the CD of tone poems below was an absolute revelation. I bought it very cheaply on Amazon UK (you can find it there for under £4) and I can't stop playing it. I would go so far as saying that these are top recommendations for all the works featured - wonderfully warm and atmospheric recordings and terrific performances from Davis and the LSO. I shall have to revise my views of this conductor!... challenged all my prejudices. I read your comments and thought, no, surely not. Then I registered your enthusiasm and thought, but what if? So thanks for this stimulating (albeit unnerving) recommendation.
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=341.0;attach=22013;image)
I have never been much of a fan of Colin Davis's Sibelius symphony recordings (LSO or Boston SO) - finding them largely unengaging and overrated. However, the CD of tone poems below was an absolute revelation. I bought it very cheaply on Amazon UK (you can find it there for under £4) and I can't stop playing it.IIRC he was humming very loud in Finlandia?! Well, it's Colin Davis, so humming is very likely....
Reading this far, I was nodding emphatically. Among all my various box sets (I mean of anything, not just Sibelius), the Davis LSO/RCA set is probably the single biggest dud. So much so that it's almost left me with Davisibeliophobia: I'd cross the road to avoid going near a Colin Davis Sibelius CD. So these comments here ...
... challenged all my prejudices. I read your comments and thought, no, surely not. Then I registered your enthusiasm and thought, but what if? So thanks for this stimulating (albeit unnerving) recommendation.
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius). ??? Ditto for Rattle (everything).
it's cyclical. overratedness is followed by taker-down-mania which is followed by 'daring reassessment' of greatness which is then... etc.
action & re-action... marx overreacted capitalism, ayn rand overreacted to socialism... that sort of thing. ;)
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius).
I've never heard a finer Sixth though.
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius).
If it's backlash, it's not consciously so in my case. I was drawn to his RCA LSO Sibelius box set by its cheapness, and by the rave reviews and (naively) I expected to find it wonderful. I was dismayed to discover that I had never heard Sibelius sound so lifeless before. I understand his LSO Live Sibelius symphonies are much better, but I'm reluctant to invest further in that direction, particularly now that I have Vanska's recordings of the symphonies to explore.
I really don't get all the backlash on Colin Davis (Sibelius). ??? Ditto for Rattle (everything).
[...] given how I'm not a 'there can only be one' (thanks Drasko) kind of listener [...]
Happy birthday, Jean Sibelius!
Happy birthday, Jean Sibelius!
re: Davis-Cycles: Unfortunately lacking a "Wood Nymph" performance. I'm wondering why nobody performs the Nymph, it's such a powerful orchestral work. To my knowledge and very regrettable, there's still only Vänskä/Lahti and Sato/Kuopio.
The world's best looking conductor, Estonian Anu Tali, has recorded the melodrama version of the Wood Nymph (for narrator, two horns, piano and strings) with the orchestra she and her twin sister founded:
The world's best looking conductor
(though Rossen Milanov is a terrific young conductor!).
He is? He seems to do a lot of work with the RSNO here, but being rather picky about my concerts, I've yet to hear him in action.
Mental note made.
(http://www.lubowphotography.com/_B1P4812.jpg)
(http://losconcertistassalvajes.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/alondra_de_la_parra.jpg)
I recently listened to all of my recordings of Sibelius' Symphony No. 5. Here is my ranking in order of preference, with brief impressions of each recording:
1. Blomsted/SFS: Expansive, atmospheric and dynamic.
2. Maazel/VPO: The tempos are on the fast side, but they work well with the excellent playing.
3. Bernstein/NYPO: Slow and dramatic. This has the slowest third movement I've heard.
4. Vanska/Lahti SO: Excellent sound quality.
5. Davis/LSO (on LSO Live): This one feels a little too heavy.
6. Davis/BSO: The first movement is too slow. The brass sound sloppy and harsh in the third movement.
3. Bernstein/NYPO: Slow and dramatic. This has the slowest third movement I've heard.
to wallow in the rapturous, ecstatic E-flat unison strings of the last minute or so before the last chords.
You'll like the Bernstein, then.
(Assuming the one in question is the DG NYPO; the earlier version wallows less , and is noticeably less interventionist.)
Interesting. I would have the top three in your list completely reversed and have Vanska in there at second instead of Blomstedt, just for the sheer showmanship of the music. Blomstedt has a more classically hewn baton in everything he does and just sometimes I get waylaid by the beauty of the direction instead of the passion of the music.
. . . Bernstein's overly slow third movement cost it a higher ranking. The drama was good, but its slowness still bothered me a little.
I'd forgotten that there were two NYPO versions. The one in question is the earlier version (1961) on Sony. I've edited my original post accordingly. I haven't heard the later version on DG, but it definitely sound interesting.
Ouch! If the slowness bothers you in that version, maybe I should advise you to stay away from the DG at all costs. :P
It's one of the most bent-out-of-shape recordings Bernstein has ever done, though I absolutely love it; and I know Sarge does too.
Thanks. Duly noted. :D
For your consideration: Sarah Ioannides, El Paso Symphony Orchestra.
(http://www.lubowphotography.com/_B1P4812.jpg)
You'll like the Bernstein, then. (Assuming the one in question is the DG NYPO; the earlier version wallows less , and is noticeably less interventionist.)
It's one of the most bent-out-of-shape recordings Bernstein has ever done, though I absolutely love it; and I know Sarge does too.
...but delighted yesterday to pick up Kullervo Symphony (Colin Davis) for £1.00. I don't usually like Davis' Sibelius but this sounds good.
It is good, even great (I'm assuming you bought the LSO live recording). I still prefer (probably alone in this) his earlier performance on RCA. They are very different. Timings don't tell all but you'll notice the RCA is much slower. I think that works especially well in the first and last movements, perhaps not so well in the Allegro Vivace third movement.
RCA LSO LIVE
I 16.18 14.22
II 15.58 14.04
III 26.01 23.22
IV 10.27 10.18
V 11.53 9.46
The RCA really inspired Hurwitz poetically ;D "the drably rendered Lemminkäinen Suite and Fifth Symphony, which, along with the deadly dull Kullervo form the artistic nadir of the set." But he gave the new version 10/10
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9605
Sarge
I do love it. It's not quite as perversely bent-out-of-shape as his DG Second...but almost ;D One correction, though: Bernstein's DG Fifth is with the Vienna Phil, not New York.
Important message for us Sibelians: Finland is now on Google Street View.Nice! Looks like a whole other world...
Sibeliustalo/Sibelius Hall (http://bit.ly/96Rf0P)
Ainola (the house) must be here somewhere (http://bit.ly/d5DhOX)
EDIT: I think it can be seen from here: http://bit.ly/bnaCkc Haha, I'm peeing in my Järvenpääntie's.
Nice! Looks like a whole other world...
So, since I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?I thought the same as Sarge, Greg--start with Tapiola. (Can't recommend Karajan, however.) Keep at it and you'll eventually find that most of the symphonic poems (Pohjola's Daughter, Luonnotar, En Saga, etc.) and symphonies 5, 6, 3, 1, and even 2 are also great--and so is most of the incidental music (i.e. Pelleas & Melisande) and the violin concerto and much else, as well!
Just wondering... anyone else ever notice having first impressions which might be a little TOO favorable, and then the enthusiasm fizzles out over time? :DYes, but that doesn't say anything. Everything happened. Bad became good. Good became bad. Bad stayed bad and good stayed good. Tapiola, it's a lot about the mood and the 1000 incarnations of the main theme. It'll probably grow on you; least I can say it works for many people :) For me, the Blomstedt SFSO is the one and only.
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Yes, but that doesn't say anything. Everything happened. Bad became good. Good became bad. Bad stayed bad and good stayed good. Tapiola, it's a lot about the mood and the 1000 incarnations of the main theme. It'll probably grow on you; least I can say it works for many people :) For me, the Blomstedt SFSO is the one and only.I'll check that one out. 8)
Easier and devastating: You want to get the Wood Nymph now! It's such a forgotten work I cannot understand why. Once again I read a sibelius book of a music professor, again the Wood nymph is not mentioned. Crazy.
So, since I've finally really gotten into the 7th symphony (the only other symphony I've liked before this one was the 4th), what might I like by Sibelius that might sound similar?
At first, when I only knew Symphonies 2, 5 and 7, it seemed a lot to me as if the earlier symphonies were just preparations for the Seventh, that 7 unifies various ideas from the earlier ones in a Great way. Now, though I definitely still notice ways in which 7 condenses and unifies the previous six, I've fallen in love with ... well, all but No. 4. So maybe you shouldn't look to me for advice. ;D I do definitely see similarities between 4 and Tapiola for you to explore.
I think 4 is the only Sibelius symphony that does not come together for me. [...]Tapiola, is a piece that only works in the right performance (for me).Too bad. Both are at the summit of the repertoire, for me and many others who appreciate them. I had the pleasure of hearing Berglund's recording of the 4th with the COE just last night.
You want to get the Wood Nymph now! It's such a forgotten work I cannot understand why.Perhaps because it's an early work that doesn't begin to compare with his mature style? Too much of it sounds like the Karelia pageant muzak crossed with Nightride & Sunrise--interesting for its proto-minimalist style, perhaps, but otherwise mostly dismissible. Sibelius himself seems to have dismissed it, as he never revised it into a coherent whole, as he did with some of his youthful works, nor did he publish it.
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
Thanks for those suggestions, I forgot about the Blomstedt/SF, I had considered that one as well.
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.All are excellent. And so are Bernstein/NYPO and Blomstedt/SFS--my faves these days, along with Berglund's latest (with the COE).
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
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Note: Vänskä, Berglund, and Blomstedt are all on the leaner, cooler, more objective side, whereas Bernstein and especially Segerstam tend to warmer, bigger, more romanticized interpretations.
...I tend towards the cooler more objective side.
I love Maazel's Pittsburgh 4th and 5th. Now that the cycle is available cheaply, I've ordered it.
Perhaps because it's an early work that doesn't begin to compare with his mature style? Too much of it sounds like the Karelia pageant muzak crossed with Nightride & Sunrise--interesting for its proto-minimalist style, perhaps, but otherwise mostly dismissible. Sibelius himself seems to have dismissed it, as he never revised it into a coherent whole, as he did with some of his youthful works, nor did he publish it.I enjoy the straightforward style pretty much and I think, the drama scene (starting at 16:45 on BIS) is too good not to be heard. This is how drama works :o
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th. I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with Tapiola. Neither has the flaw you describe.
Aside from a few recordings of Sym 2 & 4 and the well known tone poems I don't have any Sibelius symphonies.
If you were to suggest one complete set that would be a good basic reference set, who would it be?
I was thinking of Vanska, Berglund or Segerstam.
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
Sibelius in small doses, you should like it. One of my favourite pieces! "Canzonetta", from Kuolema, Op 62a. Lovely pizzicatti.Sounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pZNwN2cD1Q8
Sounds like post-depression Tchaikovsky.Oh this is deeply european; we love darkness, depression and tragedy :) I'll never understand people from Africa with all their drumming. :o
Your later post explains that you're referring to Maazel's WP 4th. I have two copies of that recording on CD--one in the complete symphony set, the other on the Decca "Legends" disc with Tapiola. Neither has the flaw you describe.
There is a glitch audible at 1:49 on my CD, from the set.
I have the 3 disc London box and the London Jubilee incarnation: both have the pop although I really had to crank up the volume to hear it distinctly. Being an old school LP guy, that kind of thing doesn't usually bother me. I've heard worse ;D
Sarge
...your very useful (and most kind) observations clearly point to this being in the master....??? Not on either of my Decca discs.
If you could find either of the OOP Berglund cycles, both are quite good, and the last with the COE is my favorite--but the Helsinki set is a bargain and it is quite good, even though the orchestra back then was rather ragged in comparison to the instrument Segerstam wielded 30 years later.
Berglund definitely yes, but get the early EMI Helsinki PO set (not his later remakes) now issued on two budget priced EMI Gemini releases.......or pay more for the 8CD box and get very nice Kullervo and extra tone poems
Also as mentioned by a couple others the early Maazel/Decca set is outstanding powerful sweeping performances with great sound. Also the Bernstein/Sony is cut from same cloth but with more Lenny exagerations, slight edge to Maazel/WP/Decca
I own the Vanska and new Segerstam/Ondine sets but not really thrilled by them, they are broader more restrained style of Sibelius performance......would not be top choices for me
If you want a cooler leaner less romantic Sibelius set the Blomstedt/Decca will fit the bill nicely
That said, it could be the CD transfer. Anyone have an LP? ;D
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(
??? Not on either of my Decca discs.
With the Vienna Phil? It's not in my CD (so, not in the recording).
With just David, I was assuming it might have been the equipment that made it less distinct, or some other circumstantial factor next to the slew of people who have noted the error; hence 'points to' vs. 'conclusively determines'.So little respect for me? I had thought you more observant than that.
So little respect for me? I had thought you more observant than that.
Sigh.
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording? :(I've just listened to my Decca Legends CD through headphones -- NO GLITCH AT 1:49 -- pop, snap, crackle or otherwise.
Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
Respect does not factor in this; except, potentially, as regards my not taking your report as 'evidence from authority'. But again, that is a methodological choice, I don't use authority as evidence. I utilise it when assessing the evidence I do use, instead.You deceive yourself. It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness. This is not "good practice." Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice. There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.
Bottom line: I did not mean to insult you. My apologies. But I did not mean to insult good practice, either. :)
You deceive yourself. It's not a matter of dismissing "evidence from authority," but of dismissing evidence, period, due to regarding me as an incompetent witness. This is not "good practice." Throwing out evidence that doesn't fit some predetermined conclusion practically defines BAD practice. There's no way to get around your dismissal of my credibility, which is not just rude (whether consciously intended or not) but indicates a surprising lack of judgment or failure to observe the obvious.
Sigh.
Besides which, if you had not dismissed the evidence you would have spared yourself the hissy fit. ;DHissy fit? Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.
Hissy fit? Such mischaracterization speaks ill of your own credibility.
Edit: Seems like re-ripping had no effect, meaning it should be the CD, or just a very loud edit. :-\
Although, I guess I'd be galled if someone suggested my stereo wasn't sufficiently refined to hear a loud "pop."
Is this the blip you hear (it occurs 8 seconds into this snip). ?? $:)
Not necessarily, a pop from hitting a scratch would not be a random error. Do you use secure mode when you rip?
Same, it was blank for me. 'dis is the bizzle:
http://www.zshare.net/audio/727103254248ad8f/
http://rapidshare.com/files/352264258/maazsib.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8DCNA7ON
(zShare will stream without requiring a DL, but might not work for all countries)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5100Gv1wLkL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WfY5DYjbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?
Sounds like data loss. Since numerous people report it, it could be that a damaged file was used when the CD was mastered, or there is a physical flaw in the lithographic master for the CD. I have the set at home and I'm curious to see if the glitch is there as well.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5100Gv1wLkL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WfY5DYjbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Does anyone else here besides me like Karajan's later EMI Sibelius better than DG versions that most critics are always gushing over?
I realize it's a popular encore, but still...after not having heard the piece for maybe, five years, it shows up twice in a week!
--Bruce
It must be the 'it' encore for Sibelius. Frankly, I would approve of someone daring enough to do Finlandia! 8)
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf. May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .
And I would be delighted to witness that, as well!
Well, Bruce, I was just even whimsically considering adapting it for flute/clarinet/harpsichord . . . .
The challenge to this is that David and Karl seem to not be reporting the flaw in their sets, and they are (presumably) from the same master. Unless they aren't, and Decca switched (re)masters at some point.
Typically these sets get manufactured in batches. When they run out a new batch is pressed, or it gets deleted from the catalog, depending on the whims of the record company execs. It could be that one batch has the problem, but not others.
I do feel that the EMI is better presented, sonically, and sometimes more consciously 'authoritative' in style, but I feel the DG versions generally have more atmosphere, when available. And I'm happy with less self-assured Sibelius.
Indeed. And it would have to have been used for more than just the box, if Sarge's report is accurate.
The defect (a pop) sounds exactly the same on both my discs. The London Jubilee CD has a copyright date of 1989 (I purchased the disc then or in the early 90s) and was manufactured in the USA.To add the second of my two schillings (Austrian) to this Sherlock Holmes mystery, I also have Sarge's disc and there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart than a genuine unadulterated pop. :D Adding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Sib14Maaz.jpg)
The box set has a date of 1998 (purchased just a few years ago) and was manufactured in Germany.
Sarge
...there is indeed an extraneous "defect" at 1:49, though to my ears it sounds more of a fly fart...
Adding to the mystery, I also noticed a similar, though even less obtrusive sound on the Decca Legends disc at about ten seconds earlier!
But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.That's right, no pop at 1:49. Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page. ;)
Sarge
Nor any snap or crackle....or otherwise. ;D
That's right, no pop at 1:49. Read the first of my two schillings (Austrian) on the preceding page. ;)
I do wonder if anyone else here has that EMI release of Karajan's Sibelius No. 1 and hears that slow ripping of duct tape at 3:40 of the finale. Believe me, it's no fly fart! >:(
I don't have the EMI Encore but do have the EMI Studio version (1987, printed in Holland). Yes, there is a defect at 3:40-42, and yes, it is much louder, more intrusive than the pop on the Maazel.Ah, therein lies the bigger scandal!
Sarge
But no pop at 1:49? The Legends CD is what DavidRoss has.This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.
This ongoing discussion prompted me to check again, since I know quite well that I can be mistaken and have learned that it is much better to "suffer" the ego-deflation of discovering that I've been wrong than to persist in stubborn delusions.
Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component. I trust those who know about such things will recognize that this equipment offers somewhat greater potential for sound fidelity than your average boombox or PC.
I heard no glitch--not even the faintest trace of a glitch. That is not to say there is no glitch there. My high frequency hearing at this stage of life is seriously compromised, falling off starting around 12.5kHz and vanishing completely by 16kHz. If this pop is an artifact occurring only at such extreme frequencies, then I would not be able to hear it. Those of you who hear the glitch should be able to tell whether it occurs only in this frequency range or not. (Note: 12kHz is approximately the 27th harmonic of A440, roughly 2 1/2 octaves higher than the highest fundamental note playable on a standard violin.)
The Decca Legends CD I have is the remastered 96kHz 24-bit "Super Digital Transfer," © 2000, manufactured by Universal Classic Group, 289 466 995-2.
I once arranged the Valse triste for cl/vn/pf. May even have a (poorly recorded) tape of it somewhere . . . .
Consequently I just listened again to the Decca Legends disc with the 4th, using a Meridian 506/24 as transport, feeding a Bel Canto DAC2, into a Channel Islands VHP-1 headphone amp, via AKG 701 headphones, with decent cabling linking each component.
I'm envious of your Meridian - but prefer to listen with speakers.So do I. The main system uses Gallo Reference 3.1s driven by a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated. Others had suggested this might not be up to snuff (or that I might not be up to snuff, or might simply be untrustworthy) and that cans might be required to hear the "pop"--so I gave it a shot.
No, don't boot that woman!Hand me the pliers!
I just listened to Maazel's Sibelius 4th for the first time; or tried to! At the 1:49 mark, first movement, there is a very ugly 'pop' in my rip. The question is: is it my rip, my CD, or the recording?
Could I ask one of you who has the recording in its most recent CD incarnation to help confirm whether the problem is with my copy?
However, apropos to the above discussion of Karajan's late Sibelius on EMI with the Berliners, I did find a very obtrusive glitch on my EMI Encore disc of the Symphony No. 1. It pops up at around 3:40 of the fourth movement during a string fortissimo, sounding much like a slow ripping of duct tape -- quite disconcerting!
[Pasted from WAYLT]Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31K4JQR318L._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Since you're double posting this, guess I'll double post my response:Yeah, it's often a quandary as to where to post things, so I figure cover the bases. Have you heard the Salonen/Philharmonia No. 5? That's the one I can feel no love for.
Gawd but I hate that recording! Or did when I first got it years ago. The dullest 5th since Davis/Boston. But perhaps I'll feel differently these days...especially since I was pleasantly surprised by Rattie's CBSO Sibelius, not one of my top choices but certainly respectable. Guess I'll make a cuppa and settle down for a mid-morning break with it. 8)
Oh well, mystery solved and problem discovered. I have had a look at the timings of that movement and it is shown as 11.12, but stops at an opportune 2 mins 34 seconds short! Perhaps I am not as daft as I thought.
I still have the packaging.
Mike
Check the disc, maybe there's a piece of schmutz.Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem, Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.
Hmmm, my copy has only Sibelius, no Schmutz--though I believe Schmutz's symphonic poem, Nightsoil on Parade, is a minor masterpiece usually coupled with the work of Schumann that inspired it.
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.;D
I am now on headphones back on No 5.Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.
I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.
At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.
Mike
Okay, I gave it a shot, and once again was flabbergasted by it. To me it is dull, lifeless, mushy, soft, and lackluster, almost completely devoid of energy and commitment, as if the entire orchestra is just going through the motions--and barely at that! Every entrance is spongy, the horns are distant, the timpani almost non-existent, the strings wimpy, and the winds often sound as if they're phoning it in. There's no attack, no edginess, no disquieting agitation in buzzing strings and questioning winds and braying horns, no power, no majesty, no sense of impending inevitability. Any other recording (at least among the 20 or so I've heard) is substantially better, even Salonen.
Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.
I don't agree with here. I hate the way Karajan rushes the chords.I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable. As in Karajan's entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.
Sarge
My pleasue, though I can hardly claim credit. I am now on headphones back on No 5.
I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.
At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.
Mike
I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable. As in Karajan's entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.We had a surprisingly lengthy discussion regarding this very subject recently: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11930.msg293793.html#msg293793
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?Yes. Still, I think he understood where his greatest gifts lay. Given the legacy, I'm glad he chose to concentrate his efforts on orchestral music. 8)
addendum: As I listened to the New Helsinki's restrained, reflective performance, I was reminded of how unusually introspective this work was at the time--and after. The title he gave it, Intimate Voices, may offer a key to richer appreciation of this under-appreciated masterpiece. Written in 1908-09, between the Third and Fourth Symphonies, it is the first formal expression of the turning inward wrought by confrontation with his own mortality.
Someone here suggested Colin Davis' recordings of the Sibelius symphonies with the Boston Symphony on Philips. Well, I think I only have two discs of the Boston symphony in my entire collection, but I decided to try it, and listened to the Symphony No 7 today. There was a lot to like about it. The "perfume" of the opening was wonderfully done, those aggregations of dissonant notes from all parts of the orchestra that magically resolve. Wonderful. However, though Colin did a fine job, I can't help but feel that the BSO let him down. The brass, in particular, tended to sound very shrill whenever they were called upon to play with power. They just don't match the sound production of the truly first rate ensembles.
I'm not that enthralled with Davis' Sibelius anyway. I think too often he lacks the kind of power these symphonies need. He does better in the more introspective moments of the music, but I think he falls short on the climaxes.
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?
These are the ones under consideration:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M3XT8QFYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bMpCHX4UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I'm wondering whether the box set (the last one) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o)
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?Hey, Guido--you're in for a treat no matter which you choose. I have the three single disc albums and about half of the recordings included in the BIS compendium, the complete contents of which are listed here: http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/PDF/BIS-CD-1906-08_contents.pdf
Top left says "The Orchestral Songs" - is this really all of them? There are arrangements on some other discs (I imagine they're orchestrations) - are any of these as good? I'm also wondering whether the box set (bottom right) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
Tangentially, I have the Isokoski disc of Hindemith's Das Marienleben (the revised version), and it is fabulous.And on the same tangent, her Strauss Four Last Songs is fine also, with sumptuous playing from the BRSO under Janowski.
And on the same tangent, her Strauss Four Last Songs is fine also, with sumptuous playing from the BRSO under Janowski.
Let us know how you like the disc, Guido!
Sibelius
Symphony № 2 in D, Opus 43 (1902-03)
Wiener Philharmoniker
Lenny
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pUBjpJgGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Leonard Bernstein – Sibelius
Complete recordings on Deutsche Grammophon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WGDXK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0001WGDXK)
Dave, I owe you hearty thanks for bringing me, by gradual stages, to acquisition of this box-let. First, some years ago, I "let you talk me into" picking up the Lenny/NY Phil Sibelius set, which I like very well. And that, over time, set my mind in a place where I could entertain the idea of revisiting these Wiener Philharmoniker recordings . . . which for years I had mentally "binned." In exactly the same way, I am enjoying these as entirely as I do his recording of the Leningrad with the CSO — if I were conducting it, it's not an approach which would be anywhere near my radar . . . it seems it ought to be a disaster . . . but he (& they) carry it off splendidly. You can't knock success, and shouldn't knock musical success! ; )
Karl, I'm waiting for your reaction to Lenny's Sibelius 2, the 18 minute long Andante ;D That's the movement that really divides opinions. In the yea column: Me, M, David Ross. In any case, I think you'll agree the Vienna brass are simply awesome.
I have a different 2-disc set, w/2, 3, &5. Can't say it's one of my faves. Jansons gets a big, lush sound from his orchestra, but he tends toward extremes of tempo and what to me are ill-considered rubato and dynamic accents that are just too interventionist and make the music sound more like disjointed patchwork than organic growth, a sequence of romantic gestures rather than a unified whole built of related cells.Doesn't sound too good. But I still haven't yet found a Sibelius interpreter that makes me feel 'yes, finally, this is it', so I'll continue to travel hopefully. It may be that I could be happy with a succession of disjointed romantic gestures, provided there were enough snow and ice and pine forests and cold winds and stuff.
Doesn't sound too good. But I still haven't yet found a Sibelius interpreter that makes me feel 'yes, finally, this is it', so I'll continue to travel hopefully. It may be that I could be happy with a succession of disjointed romantic gestures, provided there were enough snow and ice and pine forests and cold winds and stuff.Whom do you have in these symphonies, Alan?
Whom do you have in these symphonies, Alan?Sakari, Barbirolli, and Vanska. (I gave away my RCA set of Davis/LSO, as a total washout). And I get along with all of them fine, but feel that the ultimate Sibelius experience is still out there somewhere.
Sakari, Barbirolli, and Vanska. (I gave away my RCA set of Davis/LSO, as a total washout). And I get along with all of them fine, but feel that the ultimate Sibelius experience is still out there somewhere.This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:
So I'm browsing through a selection of 'Bargains' on Amazon, and I stumble across this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rAufKxosL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
2 CDs for £6 (with free postage), and containing just the four symphonies that set me on fire, and omitting the three symphonies that put me to sleep. Looks like this pack was made for me. So I thought it was worth a shot at this price, and put the order in. However, reviews of these Jansons/Oslo recordings are hard to come by (tho' the few I've found are positive).
Anyone know these? Am I heading for delight, or disappointment?
Link to the bargain purchase here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B002IR3PRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1284146834&sr=1-1)
some reasonable prices are being asked for the set at these places:
amazon.co.uk (link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
amazon.de (link (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0000268R4?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0000268R4))
Does anyone have the set of symphonies recorded with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra? It was re-released on a buget label but is now infuriatingly expensive and EMI don't seem to want to re-issue it themselves (in competition with the above set, reissued a zillion times already).
If so, i'd be super grateful for a copy of the discs. I'd gladly pay materials and shipping costs and I promise i'm not the copyright police. :)
Jansons gets a big, lush sound from his orchestra, but he tends toward extremes of tempo and what to me are ill-considered rubato and dynamic accents that are just too interventionist and make the music sound more like disjointed patchwork than organic growth, a sequence of romantic gestures rather than a unified whole built of related cells.
Neither disappointment nor delight. Some parts good, some parts merely okay.My quest for the ultimate Sibelian experiece will indeed continue.
My quest for the ultimate Sibelian experiece will indeed continue.
About the Sixth: have you heard Davis/Boston? He's so fast I guarantee you won't have time to nod off ;D
Sarge
Oh how I despise that performance...
Considering the cycles you own (or have discarded), you already have a very broad range of styles and interpretations (from Sakari to Barbirolli). I'm really at a loss as what to suggest next. In the symphonies that don't put you to sleep, I've found recordings that satisfy me completely (or nearly so):I may be beyond help, Sarge. I'm chasing two impossible memories:
1 - Maazel/Vienna
2 - Szell/Concertgebouw or Bernstein/Vienna (interpretive extremes)
3 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
5 - Rattle or Berglund/Bournemouth
Of course that won't help you. You'd get a different list from everyone.
About the Sixth: have you heard Davis/Boston? He's so fast I guarantee you won't have time to nod offNo, I've given up on 4, 6 and 7. I've tried them so many times over the years, really really wanting to get into them; but they leave me feeling bad-tempered and dissatisfied. I just can't hear any proper tunes. And what I want from Sibelius, what I most value him for, is a musical metaphor for clear distant skies, blue ice, wind-driven snow, shivering firs, and big, big typically Sibelian tunes.
Oh how I despise that performance...
I may be beyond help, Sarge. I'm chasing two impossible memories:
(1) The first time I heard a recording of Sibelius 1 at the age of about 16 (I don't know who the conductor was, and didn't know it mattered), there was something about the transition from the clarinet solo to the entry of the strings that blew my head off. I want that again, however unrealistic the desire may be.
(2) Shortly afterwards I bought a mono LP of Beecham conducting it - on Philips I think - and I played the grooves flat on that. Loved it. Today, I'd find the sound quality an obstacle.
As a result, some weird imperfectly remembered synthesised version - a sort of composite of those two - has acquired mythic status for me over the decades, and even though it doesn't exist, yet still it's the carrot that still pulls the donkey onwards.
Funny how different we listeners are. I didn't get the Sixth at all until I heard that Davis recording. Suddenly, the entire work just snapped into focus. I love the way his speeds make the symphony feel Mozartean...and love the way the movements seem to end quite abrubtly, almost before they've begun...and always with a pleasant shock.
Clearly you need to hire an orchestra and conduct your own recording.Good idea. Could you be in charge of the emergency evacuation arrangements?
As a result, some weird imperfectly remembered synthesised version - a sort of composite of those two - has acquired mythic status for me over the decades, and even though it doesn't exist, yet still it's the carrot that still pulls the donkey onwards.
And you love the way the brass section sounds like a high school band on a Monday morning at 8am?
I clearly have a higher opinion of the Boston Symphony than you do. The brass is at least the equal of a high school band at midday.
I'm crying here.
I have heard recordings where they play beautifully, but not in that one (which I've heard just recently). It truly struck me as the worst brass playing I have ever heard on a classical music recording.
Ah. To that I cannot speak; I haven't heard the Davis/BSO Sibelius.
This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
♫ This is my Quest . . . .You can laugh, Henning. But even when I find the perfect Sibelius CD, I still have to find my way to Mount Doom and chuck it in. It's not easy being on a Quest, y'know.
I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
You can laugh, Henning. But even when I find the perfect Sibelius CD, I still have to find my way to Mount Doom and chuck it in. It's not easy being on a Quest, y'know.
I listened to the first movement of the first symphony from this set last night, and thought it was almost entirely fabulous. Perhaps it might even be entirely fabulous on a second listening. The last half had me irresistibly punching the air - I don't think I've ever heard such an exciting interpretation.
Oh, I know.
Not much laughter here, and such as there is, is affectionate, lad.
You will need to listen to Segerstam's 3, too: the gorgeous recorded sound and Leif's genius for balance make the opening minute or two open up like a sunrise, because you hear every single instrument, every section, making its terraced entrance, like a staircase of musical layers rising up to the light. As you can tell, I love that recording.I shall do so with the greatest pleasure - just as soon as PrestoClassical get the box to me.
I also love Segerstam's Seventh to pieces, because he treats it as heroically and forcefully as the others, but it makes me very sad to see that you've given up on that symphony. :( I too don't understand the Fourth, but Six teases me endlessly like a beautiful but very moody girl, and Seven is the symphony I love most of all... no Five is... no wait maybe Three... or Six...Well, I must never say never, because I've been listening to Vanska doing the 4th for the last half hour, and getting a lot more out of the experience than I usually do. So really I haven't given up on any of them. I just have a tendency to pretend to tear up my comics every now and then.
Oh, I know.
When I find the perfect Sibelius CD, you can join me on the trip to Mount Doom if you like. [Thinks: that'll cheer him up.]
I agree with you guys about Segerstam's First. But I'm listening, for the first time, to Maazel's Pittsburgh First and, after hearing the first movement twice through, I'm prepared to declare it my new favorite :D It's not as powerful or muscular, and marginally less exciting, but more poignant in places (and slower by a minute in both the first and last movements which gives Maazel room for a bit of interventionist phrasing). As I wrote in the listening thead, after the clarinet solo, the strings steal in so quietly; it's as if they didn't wish to disturb the sad, mysterious atmosphere created by the opening. Segerstam's violins are jarring at that point...which is the point, I guess. Unfortunately, Maazel rushes the two final notes of the first movement. I prefer them stretched out like Segerstam does it.
Segerstam's violins are jarring at that point...which is the point, I guess.Lightning from a clear sky.
Maazel/Pittsburgh is a magnificent cycle!
If I can wear iron mittens.Always. Sensible handwear is important.
Lightning from a clear sky.
I'm beginning to believe you...finally ;)
Sarge
The pinnacles of M/P are 3 and 6.
Maazel/Pittsburgh is a magnificent cycle! I have to declare it my favorite overall (among 6 or so that I have).
I've only heard Maazel/Pittsburgh's 2 and 6... I found the 2 eccentric, but then I like my 2 really fast and slimmed-down; the Maazel Pittsburgh 6, on the other hand, is my favorite, as I wrote here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg436264.html#msg436264). It confuses me that Sarge prefers faster here!
The Sixth I've heard and liked but I still prefer Davis's faster ride
And it confuses me you like slower here. We're usually just the opposite :D
Sarge
P.S. Are you in London now?
Yes, I am! It's been a really interesting (read: crazy) few days. Just had some wonderful Persian kebabs near Queensway... mm!
On a side note, I'm not sure I like the Sixth too slow. Berglund's 11-minute finale drives me right up the wall (EMI/Helsinki). Colin Davis is pretty darn snappy in his new LSO Live and I like that one. But I do like the first movement to have space to relax and stretch out, and I like the beginning and ending of the symphony to be like sighs, the first a sigh of contentment after coming in from the cold, the last a sigh of loneliness or despair. Maazel gets it just right for me - crunchy on the inside, chewy on the outside. Or something like that. ;D
Me, I'm still reveling in Rozhdestvensky's set that I got recently. The 6th is one of the highlights. Above all, he gets the finale right, which often sounds kind of disjointed due to the various tempo changes.
I bought the Rozh box seven weeks ago and haven't even opened it yet. This gives me incentive 8)
Sarge
I'm very tempted by this set - a further attraction is Gallen-Kallela's painting of 'Lake Keitele' on the front cover - my favourite painting (and possible the most recent - 1904) in the National Gallery, London.
Yuck--mine's an old Russian set that's about as pretty as yesterday's Pravda after it's been used to line the canary's cage.
Yeah,it's gorgeous...one of, I think, three versions he did of that scene:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/Gallen-Kallela_lake.jpg)
Sarge
And while I'm on a Sibelian roll - does anyone out there have the earlier set with Segerstam and the Danish guys, on Brilliant? It's so cheap that it seems very tempting, unless the performances really aren't up to much.
Melodiya really made it look good this time. In addition to the awesome painting, the CDs are made to look like old LPs, with fake grooves even. The essay by Rozh is interesting as a conductor's POV, tho' he doesn't discuss the symphonies individually.Nope. It's a commercial label from MOCKBA called VEHEция.
The box says "first time on CD" but I think that's wrong - it was earlier on some label called "Venezia." Is that a pirate label?
And while I'm on a Sibelian roll - does anyone out there have the earlier set with Segerstam and the Danish guys, on Brilliant? It's so cheap that it seems very tempting, unless the performances really aren't up to much.I have the 5th & 7th--liked the 5th, not the 7th. Conception similar to his HPO set, a bit on the grand side. BRO had the whole set for about $12 a couple of years back. I considered it but passed.
(http://www.euro-cig.com/gal_images/20060405111947.jpg)
I have the 5th & 7th--liked the 5th, not the 7th. Conception similar to his HPO set, a bit on the grand side. BRO had the whole set for about $12 a couple of years back. I considered it but passed.Thanks. Sounds like when my Helsinki set arrives, I probably have the best of Segerstam, then.
This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:OK Dave, where are you? This box arrived this morning and I've listened to the 1st and 3rd symphonies so far.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BO2A7RICL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
[No 1] a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. [No 3] The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. ...When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. ... the dynamism of the approaching steam train
Yes, yes, yes! Yes! That's it! That's what I hear! I'm so glad you hear it too!This is what makes a forum like this so valuable. There is no one in my circle of friends (some of whom are great music-lovers) and acquaintances who'd have understood what I was talking about.
And as much as I dread to bring this up so quickly... it sounds to me like you are ready to give No 7 another try.You're right, Brian, it's certainly time, especially since I'm on a Sibelian roll, and since I'm willing to sell my soul to this Segerstam guy. I found myself listening to a bit of the 4th, actually, and thought 'hey, this is starting to be something I might be able to get into, at last' - but I'd already been thinking I'd have another go at the 7th and your comments will reinforce that determination. I'll carry your words (' the 7th is just a few blocks down') in there with me.
As a side note, I am on another of my major Sibelius swings. Approximately three times a year, I go through a "Sibelius phase" where I listen to him almost compulsively, in fact almost exclusively, for a few weeks, then abruptly stop. For the rest of the year, his music goes almost completely unplayed by me.I experience similar swings myself, not just with Sibelius but with everything. My listening progresses in a series of quantum jumps, or something like Kuhn's paradigm shifts, but there's no predicting how long the gaps will be between shifts. If I get started on a Handel phase, then only Handel will do, and if in the meantime my wife sold off my entire collection of Elgar I might not notice for weeks. Or months.
Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.Noted - thanks!
Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.
Seconded! I love that disc - it is my favourite recording of Tapiola. The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).
Actually I was listening to Segerstam's earlier Danish RSO recording of Tapiola this week (Chandos, with Symphony No 3) and I thought that it was the favourite of my multiple copies of Tapiola (my favourite work by Sibelius). The Helsinki version is also terrific
The earlier Segerstam set used to be very cheap, but no longer! (it does seem classical discs on Amazon marketplace have increased an awful lot recently, even used. Anyone else noticed this?)
Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )
Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )
:'(
It still hurts...
(Also the Chandos Segerstam set is £30 on the UK site here - I didn't check Amazon US. At any rate an eMusic subscription is significantly cheaper and more convenient)
The Chandos cycle is long deleted from the catalog and may be considered a rare item. The same recordings have been issued by Brilliant classics, and those are quite cheap.
The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).Ditto! Best En Saga by far and my favorite Lemminkäinen. Wish we had more Sibelius from Franck.
If you'll head down the "street" of No 7, I'll try to make sense of the savage No 4. :)Oh Brian, I am struggling here. I listened to it once this morning, and as always, despite approaching it with optimism, I made almost nothing of it. So this evening I thought: "This is silly. How can a 20 minute piece of music, by a composer I admire so much, be so resistant that even after something approaching 20 listenings over a lifetime, it still defeats me?" So I tried again, and this time I listened in a way that I've never done before, with a piece of paper in front of me, jotting down notes as I listened to see if something coherent would emerge. I abandoned the experiment after 10 minutes, because I couldn't think of anything to write. Since I did make these notes, I'll reproduce them here, but they merely mark out my hopeless failure as a listener.
the hymn never comes back;That's a shame - I knew it didn't, and thought it was a shame. Seems like a waste of a really good hymn.
you didn't even get to the most contained part, the very clearly defined scherzo. Hmmm.I did this morning, of course - but this evening I stopped my note-writing before I got there.
The Fourth...Believe it or not, I find it quite encouraging seeing you struggle like this! Not because I want you to struggle, but because your description makes me feel I don't need to beat myself with a stick quite so hard. And furthermore, I sympathise with you over Lost in Translation.
I do think I've made a bit of headway. First, I recognize some continuities: solo cello bits all around, for instance. But then there's the solo oboe in the last minute of the piece, that has nothing to do with anything else.
The headway is this. Seems to me that previous composers all expressed confusion and desolation and frustration by taking a nice minor-key tune, developing it, and using it to wring the life out of you. Tchaikovsky Six. Sibelius here is making you feel all those adjectives, by writing music that is confused and frustrated, and confusing and frustrating. It's like Lost in Translation, where Sofia Coppola tries to convey how bored Bill Murray is by making the whole movie really boring.
Huh, odd that two of my favorite pieces ever seem so incomprehensible to some — but that's the wonderful and often frustrating thing about perception: nobody hears the same piece.
I was talking earlier today with a conductor friend and told her I didn't really get Bruckner. She described his appeal as alike to taking part in a ritual, as in a religious rite. Now I feel ready to reapproach Bruckner's music with that in mind.
With Sibelius I hear his music as a flow. I don't question what it is he's trying to do, or why he is doing it, but merely consider myself as along for the ride. Like being on a train heading for an unknown destination, but taking time to see the sights along the way.
With Sibelius I hear his music as a flow. I don't question what it is he's trying to do, or why he is doing it, but merely consider myself as along for the ride. Like being on a train heading for an unknown destination, but taking time to see the sights along the way.
My feelings exactly, specially for 7th. I believe Sibelius originally titled it symphonic fantasy and likened it to a river. For me it best works if you just relax and float downstream on swelling of those crescendos/decrescendos, tempo and mood changes with the recurring trombone theme as something of an anchor point. Without dwelling too much on trying to discern formal structure.In one sense I think that sounds very sensible, and my perception of it as something that might be titled 'A Doodle for Orchestra' seems to fit with that. But it's described as a symphony - and that means one is invited to approach it in a certain kind of frame of mind, looking for something structural, a sense of interconnected unity. I think if he'd actually called it an orchestral doodle, I'd have been able to listen a few times, decide it wasn't my cup of tea, and move on. But precisely because it calls itself a symphony, I assume that there really is a structure there that I'm missing. So I'm looking for an interwoven tapestry, but only finding a sequence of bits tied together along a length of string.
But there's another troubling aspect to this. It's not just described as a symphony: it's spoken of as a triumph of economical symphonic structure - a single-movement symphony. Other composers take at least half an hour and four separate chunks, but Sibelius the symphonic wizard wraps it all up in 20 minutes without a break and we all get home early for tea. So this makes me even more troubled that I listen and listen for some identifiable pattern, but still the tapestry eludes me, and still I hear only the sequence of doodles along the length of the string. I must emphasise that I'm perfectly happy to accept that I'm a rubbish listener, that there is an ingenious structure there; and that I'm too dim to hear it. But if it were to turn out that there's just the string of doodles after all, and that all I need do is lay back and feel the flow, then I'd feel very hard done by, after all these years of trying.
The form of the Seventh symphony is startlingly original. Since the time of Joseph Haydn, a movement in a symphony would typically be unified by an approximately constant beat and would attain variety by use of contrasting themes in different keys. Sibelius turned this scheme on its head. The Seventh symphony is unified by the key of C (every significant passage in the work is in C major or C minor), and variety is achieved by an almost constantly-changing tempo, as well as by contrasts of mode, articulation and texture.
Barnett, Andrew (2007), Sibelius
I'm not sure it's just string of doodles, unity, which there is, is just not achieved traditionally by thematic development or sonata form. I'm sure someone with more musical knowledge could explain it much better than me, but here's something I dug out for starters:I'm worried here that I'll start to sound like a nit-picking grumbler - but the truth is that I don't understand, and I never did, and I want to. I'm not knocking the symphony itself, but expressing my concern about my perception of it.QuoteThe Seventh symphony is unified by the key of C (every significant passage in the work is in C major or C minor), and variety is achieved by an almost constantly-changing tempo, as well as by contrasts of mode, articulation and texture
(1) It achieves unity because everything is in the key of C? But .. but ... so does almost any pop song. Where is the great symphonic breakthrough in achieving unity by sticking to the key of C?
I think of the piece as a succession of moods, of associations, that make reference to common element (the trombone theme).I see that. But what makes it a symphony?
It's okay to admit that you just just don't enjoy it.No, no ... surely it's clear from my posts that that isn't the issue at all?
I see that. But what makes it a symphony?
So far, it's as if someone were to claim a poetic breakthrough in sonnet form by writing a new 'economical' sonnet of 9 lines in free verse. It might be a good poem, but why would anyone call it a sonnet?
I see that. But what makes it a symphony?
I am partially responsible for leaving Alan in the fog because I view the symphony as quite concise, have said so in the past, and have not explained exactly what concise elements I'm going on about.At last, someone I can blame!!!
At last, someone I can blame!!!
Seriously though ... thanks Brian for that sequence. Would it - bearing in mind that you are dealing with someone who seems to be wired up all wrong for this work - would it be possible for you to give a rough timing for those sections? (This may sound like a puerile request, but I can imagine sitting here becoming traumatised about whether I'm still in IV, or have made it to V.)
I have to applaud you for the concentrated listening it took to write down all those notes on the exact timings of new figures;You're suffering under the delusion that I knew what I was doing, Brian. Those were the jottings of a drowning man.
. . . I think a lot of crazy things.
No, I've given up on 4, 6 and 7. I've tried them so many times over the years, really really wanting to get into them; but they leave me feeling bad-tempered and dissatisfied. I just can't hear any proper tunes.
Does anybody know where on the forum M forever (or someone of similar bent) argued that Every Conductor Conducts the Seventh Wrong? He was referring to the very last bars, where an important violin phrase goes unheard in every extant recording because of orchestral balances. If you know where that discussion is, please let me know.
My own introduction to the work, and still an extremely good one, is this essay (http://inkpot.com/classical/sibsym7.html) which helps explain some of the history as well as supplying a sort of "narrative."
Brian, I've just listened again with your list in front of me. I've still got a long way to go, but I can already say that I got more from this one listening that all the previous 20 listenings spread over the last lord-knows-how-many years. Most particularly, this is the first time ever that I've understood the ending.
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.
The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!
Perhaps it was foolish to listen yet again so quickly, but in terms of the result, I think not. This time I read the essay before listening, and then listened again with your list in front of me. Blimey. Brian, you've given me a huge leg up here: I 've never come close to getting this much from this music before, and I think from here on, I might even be able to resolve some of my remaining puzzles myself on further listens, having now acquired some firm base camps, as it were. By the way, there were two or three moments when I thought I caught transient quotations from the earlier symphonies - is that just me being over-imaginative, or are they really there?
But OK, OK, for the first time I'm getting some sort of grip on the structure of this, and I can hardly express the difference it's making.
Incidentally, I only hear the two notes at the end. I can't hear the other two that are mentioned in the M Forever discussion.
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.19! My, you are over the edge, dude! My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!
Sarge
19! My, you are over the edge, dude! My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.
Sarge
If you strain your ears, you can hear the violins play D-C behind the brass intermittently, like a view from a train window that comes and goes between the trees, on the Sakari/Iceland recording.
Having only 12 on the shelf, I certainly feel like a bush leaguer. :(
8. I'm definitely still an amateur.
4 (plus one given away) and a fifth on order. Pitiful.Nah--you guys just aren't certifiable nutcases like some of us, at least where Sibelius is concerned. Bear in mind that some folks have collections of Beethoven sonatas or Bach's Goldbergs that make us all look like pikers...and that we used to have a fellow around here with 120+ recordings of the Rach 2!
For Alan: perhaps it would help if you were to open your attention to the organic, cellular nature of the work. Sibelius wasn't imposing a predetermined structure on his material, forcing it to fit his or anyone else's idea of how it should look or sound, but rather he worked to clear away extraneous impediments and let the material create its own essential form--like snowmelt dripping from sun-kissed firs trickling through the underbrush forms rivulets and then streams that join other waterways gliding inexorably down the mountain slopes until they meet in a mighty river that inevitably opens into the infinite depths of the sea.That last half is indeed a remarkably good evocation of aspects of the Sibelius Experience, regardless of which symphony one listens to!
4, 6 and 7 always seemed so puzzlingly remote). Then at some point I started desperately looking for structure but couldn't find any.
Now for my next task, apparently - because I have always thought of the Sixth as the most traditionally, classically structured of all the symphonies.Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it. I want tunes in my Sibelius!
Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it. I want tunes in my Sibelius!
I think the sixth is pretty tuneful.Depends on our personal wiring. Hence a conversation I had with a friend many years ago, which went something like this:
Depends on our personal wiring. Hence a conversation I had with a friend many years ago, which went something like this:
Him: What are you listening to these days?
Me: Wagner. I'm hooked on the Ring.
Him: Good grief! But there aren't any decent tunes in Wagner.
Me: Oh come on, it's jam-packed full of brilliant tunes. What are you listening to, then?
Him: Verdi.
Me: Verdi? But I can't hear any decent tunes in Verdi....
Oh no, sorry Brian - my post wasn't clear. I was talking about my general lack of progress with the 4th, 6th and 7th, but my reference to the search for structure was only referring to the 7th. My problem with 4 was that it's so damn miserable, and my problem with 6 was that I couldn't (can't) find any decent tunes in it. I want tunes in my Sibelius!Ah...no wonder you're having trouble. The first and especially the second symphonies set you up for big, gushing tune-fests. He continued that--to some extent--with his symphonic poems and theatre music, but went another way entirely with the symphonies. The third is already veering off the romantic path and the fourth goes off-piste completely. (For some perverse reason I just imagined Jack Nicholson in that famous scene on the witness stand in A Few Good Men saying, "Tunes? You want the tunes? You can't handle the tunes!")
……1,2,3 and 5, you see - they just soaked into my bones, so 4, 6 and 7 always seemed so puzzlingly remote).While i like 1,2,3 and 5 I always found them reasonably conventional. My favroties have been; and this from early on in my Sibelius listening, 4, 6 and 7, because of their "mystery" and ability to let your own mind fill in the blanks; and these symphonies provides plenty of hooks upon which you can let your own mind expand....really mindblowing music - and occasionally very frightening as well, few works are able to scare the hell out of me when I'm in that mood like these!
I don't see the fourth as miserable at all. Dark in parts, yes, but not unremitting, not without beauty, grace, and joy. Grappling with mysteries and the great unknown, perhaps, with no real resolution of the ultimate uncertainty, but nevertheless finding peace in the acceptance of that uncertainty.I'm ahead of myself here, because I intend to go back to the 4th with my new ears and I don't want to prejudge the result. But I've never experienced the peace you mention, here. The overall result seems disturbing and restless, and (of course) there's a significant tune problem too. Always after listening to the 4th I've emerged gloomy, puzzled, dissatisfied, and bad tempered - and that's a discouraging result as far as future listenings are concerned.
As for the 6th--it's just so damned pleasant and effortless and sweetly melodic that it hardly seems possible for it be a great symphony. Where's the angst? The grand gestures? The sweeping themes? It just bubbles along, so perky yet well-mannered that it's easy to forget that it didn't just spring full-grown like Athena from the head of Zeus, but rather was honed and crafted by a master 'til no evidence of the sculptor's chisel remains.Again, I intend to go back to it and see what I can find, though I feel as if I'll be doing it more from duty than pleasure. I can't help it. I want my Sibelius BIG. And I want his big tunes.
While i like 1,2,3 and 5 I always found them reasonably conventional.Since I was sixteen, Sibelius has always stuck out like a great beacon among composers, for me, so that while I appreciate that those symphonies (1,2,3,5) may be described as formally conventional, I've always found them unique. (People talk about the influence of Tchaikovsky, particularly in the 1st, but while I can hear that, Tchaikovsky never composed anything that blew my head off in the way Sibelius did.)
while I appreciate that those symphonies (1,2,3,5) may be described as formally conventional
Alan, what recordings of the Sixth do you have?Same as the others - I just have 4 box sets: Sakari, Barbirolli, Vanska and Segerstam (Helsinki). Rozhdestvensky is on the way to join them, but MDT are waiting for new stock.
The irony of this, of course, being that none of those symphonies are really formally conventional at all.I can't really determine this for myself - I'm just quoting people who often seem to say it (with mildly disapproving Tchaikovsky references).
Remember the old Beatles song, Tomorrow Never Knows? "Turn off your mind, relax, and float downstream...."
Just listened to Symphony No 2 in the new Melodiya Rozhdestvensky Moscow RSO box and thought it absolutely terrific - with braying soviet horns etc. This is by no means my favourite Sibelius symphony but this performance had me on the edge of my seat.
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572305.jpg)
I've just listened to the first volume of Pietari Inkinen's new Sibelius cycle. I had mixed impressions. The First Symphony will not rank among my favorites: it is a little slow and soft-edged; the opening clarinet solo sounded a little too 'bright' (or at least not brooding enough), and then, once the strings get into a major key a few moments into the main allegro, they turn soft and Tchaikovskian with surprising ease. It's a general indicator of a performance that's not nearly as exciting as Segerstam, bleak as Berglund, or - well, you get the idea. It's one of the slowest performances I know: the scherzo's at 5:43 vs. 5:17 for Segerstam and Elder, 5:20 for Davis in Boston, and 5:01 for Berglund in Helsinki. The finale hits 13:00. I like slow, of course, but this didn't suit me.
Inkinen's Third is another story, though. It's very well-managed, with a first movement that hits all the right buttons, a wonderfully paced slow movement (9:50), and a finale which does indulge the Big Tune somewhat on its first arrival, but then hustles to the ending quite efficiently and with more than a little excitement.
It's all in terrific sound and I really cannot fault anything the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra does (except for the big clarinet solo in the First, and lower brass in the Third's final variations which don't make as big an impact as they could). I don't think the First had enough energy, and the Third was good but not necessarily individual or distinctive.
Somebody asked me if they thought this would be a lush, romantic cycle in contrast to Petri Sakari's chillier set, also on Naxos. The answer is "N/A." If by "romantic" you mean "slow," then yes, this first volume does tend towards the romantic side of things. But if by "romantic" you mean "impassioned," then the answer is "intermittently." I will listen again soon. Hopefully I'll like it better. I mean, I did like it. But I liked it passively, rather than enthusiastically.
EDIT: In defense of Inkinen's First, I should point out that in the first movement, the "outro" theme from the exposition (you know - the minor-key wind tune that leads back to the development/coda) is very sensitively played by the NZ winds, over those Sorcerer's Apprentice-like bassoons. (When the clarinets get the accompaniment they don't conjure up Mickey Mouse quite so easily...)
I only just requested this CD for a MusicWeb assignment, when David Hurwitz at ClassicsToday posted a review which agrees with mine in nearly every assessment. Alas! This is a difficult assignment: to write an opinion when you've already written it on GMG, and somebody else has already written it on another website...
Difficult? It's called self-plagiarism, and it works like a charm. Required: Pen. (Keyboard). Confidence. A minimal modicum of writing ability. And shameless self-referentialism.
Well my main concern is the mischievous temptation to write a PS saying "I know I said exactly the same things as Dave Hurwitz, but here's a link proving that I said them all first." ;D
Ben? Ben? You still there? . . .
Or maybe you're..... pause for suspense.... the same person!
Based on our taste, I am very similar to D.H., but with less irrational mania for quasi-Mahlerian post-romantics. On the other hand, I AM the same person as Roger Ebert. When I was a film critic for my university paper, I always had to read Roger's review before submitting mine, to make sure that I hadn't come up with exactly the same opinions, insights, stresses, and jokes he had!
You don't want to compare yourself to D.H., in any way. Trust me. You don't deserve that... no one does.
On the other hand you don't deserve to compare yourself to Roger Ebert. Yet. We'll talk in 20 years, after
a career's worth of Ebert-like insights, grace, wit, and skill. ;D
Sakari's reading is a shock new contender in my Quest for the Perfect FifthInteresting.
...and I finally, finally enjoyed the Fourth Symphony for the first time today. Whew!I'm very, very happy for you. ;D 8)
Sibelius is not something you can try and get... it gets you. It's like a zombie. I spend months at a time not listening to Sibelius at all, and even not liking it, and thinking it's tacky and fake, and then it comes up behind me and bites me in the neck and I stagger around drunkenly for a month looking like the guy in the attached picture. I think what did it was that I saw No 5 live in concert knowing nothing about it or what to expect, and the finale sent my brain into the stratosphere and I've been trying to find that same level of rapture ever since and can't find it anywhere else. In other words, Sibelius is like crack. ;DMuch like my experience. Only in my case it took decades for me to appreciate him. I partly blame the music history idiots who don't get him and so call him a "nationalist" composer and offer Finlandia as representative. I didn't care for the jingoistic Finlandia and it gave me the wrong idea right off the bat.
Crack is an apt analogy. Over the next few years I bought recording after recording, seeking the holy grail: that perfect set guaranteed to produce epiphanies every time I popped it into the CD player. I haven't found it...or maybe I've found several.
Oh, didn't see that coming! Is it really apt? haha Are you selling your belongings and those of others. Are you stealing from your family to buy more Sibelius? Are we to look out for your book What's eating David Ross?Ha! From one fellow Sibelius junkie to another... ;D 8) :-* .
There is help available! ;)
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.572305.jpg)Thanks for the review, Brian. Doesn't seem like a likely acquisition for me, but who knows?
Symphonies 1 & 3, now Symphony 2 from this set:Underrated, methinks. One of my faves. More characterful than most, with a rugged rusticity that seems appropriate given JS's love for ancient epics and nature's sublimity.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCTh-UO0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J. Sibelius
Symphonies & Kullervo
Petri Sakari, Iceland SO
Naxos Wite Box (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005QISF/goodmusicguide-20)
Still a few available for a good price (better than the clunky 4-disc version, actually!) on Amazon.
The slim White Box (with full booklet) is so much neater than the jewel-case mess. And the Kullervo not half bad.
Underrated, methinks. One of my faves. More characterful than most, with a rugged rusticity that seems appropriate given JS's love for ancient epics and nature's sublimity.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MycKLMGRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Released in 1997 and so not strictly in "the very first wave"...
If you have M forever's email address, do PM it to me. I've only just today realized that the Seventh Symphony is built on a quote from Beethoven's Fifth and, although he has probably known this since he was 6, I want to share the excitement of discovery with him.
It is?
It's time to play who said that?
Who said this?
“... Hopes for renaissances of Pfitzner and Sibelius, Carossa or Hans Thoma, say more about those who cherish the hope than about the enduring value of the works of such souls.”
a bit too easy; pretty obviously from the same man who called Sibelius "the world's worst composer", no?
Who said this?
TheodoreAdorno
Sarge
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/icon_thumbup.gif) From Aesthetic Theory.
Does anybody know of an English translation of Rene Leibowitz' book "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World"? The original French work is right here at the British Library, but I may not be the world's best translator.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MycKLMGRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Released in 1997 and so not strictly in "the very first wave"...
DavidRoss: my physical copy of Sakari's 4/5 has arrived, so I'll now play No 5 in CD sound quality and see if it still stacks up as a "contender."
I want tunes in my Sibelius!
Oops. Meant Adorno. Quoted Leibowitz. It's been so long that I've seen someone quote Adorno to project intellectual prowess, I was completely thrown off. His writings on music must be my most disdained books on my shelves. A reasonably above-average intellect with a style unreasonably beyond-redemption. By the time you get to the modest kernel of meaning of any one of his obtuse sentences, you're so exhausted that you forget to question how insightful (or not) that very sentence just was. In any case, Adorno's opinion about Sibelius is as inane and childish as Gould's about Mozart. But at least Gould didn't damage Mozart (apart from his recordings. Ha!). Adorno's moronic statement probably plays some part in the reluctance of the continent to even consider Sibelius as a worthy composer. Even Karajan couldn't pierce the mantle of ignorance that still hangs over the ears of these audiences with regards to the great Finn.
I worry about Leibowitz, that he would go to the length of writing a book of that title . . . I thought it was just a remark . . . .
The Sibelius Fifth is on at Symphony this coming weekend!
http://www.antonin-serviere.com/site/Texts_files/Sibelius-Reception.pdf
Of course, your dismissive remark about "someone quot[ing] Adorno to project intellectual prowess" is not appreciated; I was reading his book and taking notes...;D
...His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all...
The difference being: Schopenhauer is a pleasure to read.
(Incidentally: where does Schopenhauer reject Wagner? I don't think I've read *that* part. He wouldn't have likely heard more than Rienzi, Flying D-Man, and Tannhaeuser, would he?)
As a prominent member of the Frankfurt School, Adorno had an ideological axe to grind --- and to the totalitarian narrow-mindedness which is the inherent mark of any ideology fell victim not only Sibelius and Stravinsky, but also his own prose, as Brian testifies. His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all. They are however instructive about how even some of the finest minds can display a considerable and lamentable obtuseness.QFT ;D
I guess I'm lost, looking for the Sibelius thread.
I do admire the polished courtesy with which you are wont to broadcast your opinion.
Some of Sibelius's little known yet lovely works are included on this disc, which is overdue for another hearing:
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Ashkenazy Sibelius cycle on Exton is finnish(ed), too! But the discs can be difficult to to get outside Japan.
Rozhdestvensky seems now (spottily) available in the West on Melodiya. (Thanks, Elgarian)
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I have tickets to see Thomas Adès conduct the Boston Symphony in a few weeks and Sibelius' "The Tempest" (Suite No. 1) is on the program. I picked up a copy of the EMI Beecham/Royal Philharmonic CD to familiarize myself with the work and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. Any recommendations for other recordings? I understand the order of these short pieces varies from recording to recording. This one seems to have movements from Suite 1 and Suite 2 interspersed somewhat randomly.For the suites, Segerstam/HPO, for the complete incidental music, Saraste/FRSO.
I'm undergoing a severe Sibelius drought so far this year. The last period of explosive activity in this thread, back when Elgarian and I conquered our fears of the Seventh and Fourth, respectively, was my last Sibelius "kick." I listened to the Fourth a couple times for the listening club, and saw the Fifth live yesterday - Philharmonia & Susanna Malkki - a wonderful experience! - but Nos 4 and 5 are the only Sibelius works I've heard at all in 2011. Averaging one listen to his music per week.
It feels really bizarre to go through such pronounced phases with a composer. In about 6 weeks, if the trend holds true, I'll be listening to him obsessively again.
My patterns aren't so erratic as yours, but I try to make time for the composers that I love at least every month. This month is Stravinsky, Bartok, and Villa-Lobos month for me so far. I think in April I'm going to try to catch up with some Sibelius, but I'm not going to listen to any of the symphonies, as much as I love them, but I have already explored them from top to bottom, inside and out. I'm going to focus my attention on the tone poems, choral works, and the incidental music he composed.
My patterns aren't so erratic as yours, but I try to make time for the composers that I love at least every month. This month is Stravinsky, Bartok, and Villa-Lobos month for me so far. I think in April I'm going to try to catch up with some Sibelius, but I'm not going to listen to any of the symphonies, as much as I love them, but I have already explored them from top to bottom, inside and out. I'm going to focus my attention on the tone poems, choral works, and the incidental music he composed.
For the male choir pieces, I recommend this excellent album
The pronunciation is going to be atrocious if you get the works performed by non-Finnish choirs, I guarantee that. Then again, you might not notice it.
I'll have to check but if I'm not mistaken I already have this recording which is included in the Essential Sibelius 15-CD BIS set I bought a year or so ago. I think it's out-of-print now.Yes, it very probably is, perhaps there are even two (not too well filled ones, though) CD's.
Yes, it very probably is, perhaps there are even two (not too well filled ones, though) CD's.
For the male choir pieces, I recommend this excellent album
The pronunciation is going to be atrocious if you get the works performed by non-Finnish choirs, I guarantee that. Then again, you might not notice it.
Here are a few examples. I hope others will "chime" in with other performances:
Glockenspiel
Maazel/Vienna
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Berglund/COE
Vänskä/Lahti SO
Karajan/Berlin Phil (DG)
Karajan/Berlin Phil (EMI)
Segerstam/Helsinki
Beecham/RPO
Barbirolli/Hallé
Sakari/Iceland
Kegel/Dresden
Tubular Bells
Bernstein/NY Phil
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Blomstedt/San Francisco
Stokowski
Glockenspiel and Tubular Bells
Maazel/Pittsburgh
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Davis/Boston
Järvi/Gothenburg
Szell and Reiner began with the glockenspiel, then added tubular bells, and ended with just bells.
I think the combination of instruments is the most effective. Davis, for example, begins with glockenspiel, uses bells only in the central climax, and has both appear near the symphony's end, which make those bars sound even more chaotic and disturbing than usual.
Sarge
Well choral work has never been that big of interest me when discussing Sibelius. His best work, in my opinion, are the symphonies and tone poems, though he has written some lovely pieces for violin/orchestra as well as some incidental music, but this is fairly minor Sibelius.
Chiming in that Ernest Ansermet is 'totally tubular' (as the California surfers used to say) in his version with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. And it creates a strange and beautiful effect, in my opinion.
Chiming in that Ernest Ansermet is 'totally tubular' (as the California surfers used to say) in his version with L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. And it creates a strange and beautiful effect, in my opinion.
Speaking of which, should you find the Rozhdestvensky Sibelius cycle of offer, or even at a reasonable price, and you like Sibelius at all, it's one of those unexpected 24-carat diamonds of the Melodiya catalogue; or even the Sibelius catalogue.
Short of Vänskä's uber-'authentic' cycle, I can't think of any (complete) cycle I would have before Rozhdestvensky's, much to my surprise when I acquired it. No allowances for being 'Russian-style': it's just great Sibelius, including the best 3rd I know!
Have you hear his Snofrid? It is in my top 5 favourite Sibelius works.
Seconded - such an ernest little cantata-thingy, and with enough big tunes to save the day.
That sounds like most of pre-symphonic Sibelius: an earnest little cantata/tone-poem thing, plus nice tunes. ;D
Sibelius really is one of those cases where one can really feel the difference, once he started getting serious about his music as a formal venture, vs. 'nice things that describe Finland'. Not to say the nice things that describe Finland were bad music, however. Still, I can never quite get over the compositional gulf between them and the late symphonies.
Indeedie - I don't have much time for the minor/very early works, and Snöfrid is dangerously thin on material, but really grabs my attention. I like Sibelius' early maturity (Lemminkäinen Suite through Symphony No.3) as much as his later works - I always feel bad about that :P Even a few of the even earlier works like En Saga I find pretty essential, although I am pre-disposed to the tone poem medium.
I like parts of the Lemminkäinen Suite lots, and Rozhdestvensky (see above) really gave me a new perspective on the power of the 3rd symphony. But the moment I put on the 4th symphony, it's like it all fades away. :DDoes this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th? Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?
I suppose Sibelius would be happy.
Does this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th? Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies. The 1st is good, but not mind-blowing; and then you get to the second... And then that third. :o And then... Even the 6th!
It's as awe-inspiring as Svetlanov's Mahler, only more normal.
What are the timings for Rozh's Second?
9:36, 15:00, 5:52, 14:30
Darn. I'm hoping to hear something closer to 7:30, 12:30, 6:00, 13:00. I think the music could take it if only someone would try. The outer movements would sound a lot like the Third Symphony.
Yay, someone on my wavelength...Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius was my single best purchase of 2010. We had a thread on it last year:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480
Amusingly, up until fairly recently I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead. It's a shame he doesn't seem to record much now.
I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead.
The guy turned 80 this year - give him a break!
Also, cross-posting from the Melodiya thread, regarding something I picked up this year: "Speaking of which, should you find the Rozhdestvensky Sibelius cycle of offer, or even at a reasonable price, and you like Sibelius at all, it's one of those unexpected 24-carat diamonds of the Melodiya catalogue; or even the Sibelius catalogue.
Short of Vänskä's uber-'authentic' cycle, I can't think of any (complete) cycle I would have before Rozhdestvensky's, much to my surprise when I acquired it. No allowances for being 'Russian-style': it's just great Sibelius, including the best 3rd I know!"
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies.
I didn't notice your return proper, Alan, apart from a 'sighting' reported by Sara. It's good to have you back. :)
Brian'll be interested in this - I bet he's got a set by now - have you Brian?
I slung a Welcome back on some thread or other, Alan : )
I think I mentioned somewhere else that I was seriously considering it - added it to my shopping cart at MDT - put it back on my wishlist - read your post and when you got to the description of the Fourth started thinking "oh man, really need to hear this," and then when you ask this at the end I laughed. You bet I'm interested. ;D Was put off by a couple initial reports that the set was "just" blaring Soviet loudness but yours is a very hearty rebuttal.
I mean, seriously Brian, I never thought there's be a day when I would listen to the 4th with this degree of fascinated attentiveness. Shoot down all this stuff in flames if you like, and call it fanciful - doesn't matter. I'm in there digging, now, with everything admittedly provisional, but with everything to play for.
I mean, seriously Brian, I never thought there'd be a day when I would listen to the 4th with this degree of fascinated attentiveness. Shoot down all this stuff in flames if you like, and call it fanciful - doesn't matter. I'm in there digging, now, with everything admittedly provisional, but with everything to play for.
My goodness! Alan's back. ;D And folks are discussing Sibelius again. 8) And Brian, Alan, and Ray are all digging the 4th. Way 8) !
Dave, I've never regretted purchasing any of Vänskä's Sibelius recordings. His symphony set is one of my faves--and damn near the polar opposite of Rozhdestvensky's.
But when I got the Rozhdestvensky box, mysterious things began to happen. At first I thought it was excitingly different - but probably offering no more than a quirky second string to my mainly Segerstamian bow. But then suddenly, the 4th and the 6th (which I'd never managed to get into, in decades of listening - suddenly I say, I was listening to these with fascination; at times significantly moved; hearing aspects of them that I'd never heard before. I listened to the 4th on three successive days, keen to get at the heart of it: responding to it now as chiefly tragic, where once I'd found it merely dull and bleak. That would have been unthinkable without this Rozhdestvensky performance to lure me on.
Awesome Dave! I think I'll pull the trigger. :)
I've heard yet another Sibelius symphony on the radio, and I'm thinking that I really want to finally buy the Vanska cycle. :)
I've been trying to understand what the big difference is - what caused the breakthrough. It must have something to do with the Russian-ness of it perhaps. But there's a kind of beautiful but dangerous raw crispness to the soundscape of it. The music sounds as if it were born from splintered ice. I think Ruskin's valuable term, 'savageness' (which describes the kind of imperfection one gets when art is operating at its limits, perhaps even hovering close to failure) might be helpful here. When I listen to my revered Segerstam after Rozhdestvensky, he sounds imprecise, blowsy, opulent, rounded off by comparison.
Don, John ;D
4. Vanska/Lahti in the BIS Essentials box. I thought at first that this was going to be the best I could get. Precise and sparkling, and yet, and yet, somewhere inside I knew I was secretly hoping for something more.
Alan, Segerstam was a wow moment for me too, passionate performances! I think I liked the Barbirolli more than you did, but for the older performances I liked the Bernstein cycle on columbia.
....I might just be a heartless bastard. ;D
Is there anyone else who loves Davis/BSO, especially in 7th? Good grief, I should just succomb to the pressure and be a hater of Davis/Sibelius, Rattle/anything, Emerson SQ/everything and Quartetto Italiano/Beethoven SQs, Jochum/Bruckner.
Having a bad day, Ray?
And Jochum/Bruckner....well, he does suck ;D ;)
Sarge
;D 8)
And the Italiano...such gorgeous playing; no one quite like them (I heard them live shortly before they disbanded...still the best chamber concert I've ever heard).
If you ever see the Pavel Haas Quartet live, your heart will flutter... though it may not be the music. ;)
;D ...I know what you mean.
Sarge
I should check out Davis/BSO . . . .
Pfft!
I should check out Davis/BSO . . . .
Maazel/Wiener Philharmoniker
Blomstedt/SFSO
Berglund/Helsinki Phil (I think)
Bernstein/NY Phil
Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker (incomplete)
Anyway, I shall literally check the Davis/BSO out, for the CDs are