THWI, call it want you want. I'm outta here.???
I think what I will do, though, now that it's possible, is remove my old posts after a day or two, keep my total number under ten, and perpetuate my newbie status well into the future.
Carter-mudgeons ... yeesh! ::)
Well, if you'll notice, I haven't started ay threads yet ... ;)
Certainly the coolest 98-year-old I can think of. Every time a piece of his is performed in New York, he shows up in the audience, and after coming onstage receives a cheering standing ovation. He looks remarkably good, too. We should all be so vital at that age.oh yeah, definetely.... at least he's not in a nursing home
My God, what have I done?
You should be happy - it just shows how well crafted the joke was (and at least for some of us - it was quite hilarious). It'll die off sooner or later anyway. Let's hope. ;)
Joe, you're a celebrity, dude!
The Double Concerto is quieter, more lyrical, and --- dare I say it? --- prettier than the Piano Concerto. It seems less coherent, or less directed, but it has many lovely moments.
My God, what have I done?;D
That innocent little April Fool's joke has ended up posted at Google. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical/browse_thread/thread/60bad0bbf12132b5/2553a97c6967c17d?hl=en#2553a97c6967c17d) Have I opened a Pandora's Box? And who is this Lora Creighton?
I fear a Seinfeld moment coming on. Mr. Carter sees this. The worst happens, and I'm stuck explaining to everyone for the rest of my life, "For heaven's sake, it was a joke."
;D
that's some really funny stuff
maybe God is just keeping Elliott Carter alive so long to make up for his unforgivable atonal sins :o
I am now letting my child go into the wide world to fend for itself. I shall say no more about it. Fly, my pretty! ;D
And ditto Dialogues for Piano and Chamber Orchestra (2003), that followed, with pianist Nicolas Hodges. Another masterly score, one that I'd like to get to know better.(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CT4BRQ71L._SS500_.jpg)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CT4BRQ71L._SS500_.jpg)
Problem solved (and one of the best Carter discs out there).
You don' t have that recording yet!? What in heaven's name are you waiting for?!?!?!?!?!!?
Now that's out of my system. I'm sorry I wasn't able to get to NYC for the concert, Bruce. I can listen to Dialogues any time, of course (some of us have the %#&$@! recording, after all ), but I would like to get to know he Illusions better. I've heard it once, and I remember the music was very atractive, but that's about all at this point. We're due for a recording. But then, we're due for a lot of things.
From today's Times, an article on James Levine:I saw that too, and when I saw you posting in this thread I made a mental bet you'd been reading the Times today. ;)
Mr. Levine offered a persuasive argument for challenging contemporary fare. That a composer of Mr. Carter’s stature is still producing ingenious works in his late 90s is a “unique situation in music history,” Mr. Levine said, and he intends to take advantage of it. Holding up a score Mr. Carter had just sent him — “Interventions,” a new work for piano and orchestra —Mr. Levine described himself as “like a kid in a candy store.” The plan is to perform the piece at Carnegie Hall on Dec. 11, 2008, Mr. Carter’s 100th birthday, with Mr. Levine conducting the Boston Symphony and Daniel Barenboim as soloist.
Yet another premiere (and a third piano concerto!). I guess this is the piece based on the Irish folk tune ;)
I'm still looking into finding a reason to be in Boston in mid-November, though.
Thanks, Bruce. Nicely done. I really have a hankering to hear the Illusions again. I hope someone, somewhere manages to record it.
Oh, heck; two of the pieces I'm working on now are longer ;)
Surely at only nine minutes it will find its way onto a recording...
Feb. 2, 2008
Juilliard Orchestra
James Levine, Conductor
Cellist TBA
Well, they had better A that cellist ASAP, Bruce 8)
Juilliard Orchestra
James Levine, Conductor
Cellist TBA
Ives: Orchestral Set No. 1
Ives: Three Places in New England
This confuses me. The Orchestral Set No. 1 and Three Places in New England are the same piece.
This confuses me. The Orchestral Set No. 1 and Three Places in New England are the same piece.
Bruce, what are some of the other concerts? Will they be doing the Double Concerto?
The median line falls between 58 and 59, so that the midpoint of Mr. Carter's output lies somewhere in 1990, when he was 82. In other words, he's written as many works in the past 17 years as he wrote in the previous 54.
So Joe are all of them available on a recording (except for a few of the newer pieces)?
I had no idea he had written so little during the 1960s.
--Bruce
But I'd like to know how he spent most of his time in the 60s. It couldn't have all been composition and note-keeping.
dropping acid and travelling to India with the Beatles?
It makes sense, though, since that was the decade in which he perfected his hypercomplex style. He wrote more pieces than I had thought in the 40s, but it was mostly neoclassical stuff with a few experiemental pieces mixed in. Productivity fell off during the 50s, as the new style came into being, then picked up again in the 70s.
But I'd like to know how he spent most of his time in the 60s. It couldn't have all been composition and note-keeping.
BWV, I've whittled your list down to the major pieces I think you should seek out first:
27. Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord 1952
28. Variations for Orchestra 1955
30. Double Concerto 1961
36. Brass Quintet 1974
44. Triple Duo 1983
65. Trilogy 1992
81. Luimen 1997
87. Tempo e Tempi 1989-1999
82. What Next? 1997-1998
95. Oboe Quartet 2001
96. 4 Lauds 1984-2001
98. Retracing 2002
101. Of Rewaking 2002
107. Three Illusions for Orchestra 2004
110. Soundings 2005
114. In the Distances of Sleep (2006)
Slow day at work, and I have just wasted an hour putting together a numbered, chronological list of Mr. Carter's works.
thanks joe, ill try to check it out, another vocal work ive heard was syringa, didnt do much for me either unfortunately...but the idea of a Carter brass quintet is something id like to hear, too bad naxos doesnt have a cycle of his works going, its about time me thinks...
Night Fantasies is his piano masterpiece that doesnt get enough attention IMO. A stunning piece.
Tempo e tempi shows another side of Carter. The songs are all very brief --- one consists of only one line --- and they depend a great deal on tone color for their effect. Beautiful stuff. I must say, though, I haven't gotten into "Of Challenge and of Love" very much.I think Tempo e tempi is probably my favourite of Carter's song cycles: it seems to me the finest distillation of his late lyrical style (though the Boston Concerto comes close).
thats good to hear, do you happen to know how many recordings of the work are available? i have heard aimard's recording, and i have that rosen disc, which is good...it has the piano sonata and 90+ also
There's also a Louise Bessette recording on her disc 'Quebec 5, USA 3'.
I wish Oppens would record the Noght Fantasies again, though. Judging by the live performance I heard at Curtis, she's come a long way with the piece. She was really on top of it. She made it feel like an organic whole, with each episode rising naturally out of another.
I made some changes to the Carter entry on the Wikipedia page, adding some information on Carter's musical style. I would appreciate any feedback or edits.
Checked out the wikipedia article, and have added Interventions for piano and orchestra to the work list. There are now 116 works.
BWV, I like your attempt to "humanize" Mr. Carter's aesthetic, as it were. The point about fluidity and drama are especially important. He has also talked about his desire to portray is "different form of motion," in which players are not locked in step with the downbeat of every measure. He has said that such steady pulses remind him of soldiers marching or horses trotting, sounds that we in the late 20th century do not hear at all anymore. He said he wants his music to capture the sort of continuous acceleration of deceleration we feel in an automobile or an aeroplane --- his own and ironically old-fashioned sounding word.
I stole your words there and wrote them into the article
And everybody, big news: I have just heard from an inside source that What Next? is scheduled for a full staging at the Miller Theater, NYC, in December.
Oh.
Happy.
Days.
You are correct! I just got Miller Theatre's schedule for next season, and What Next? will be performed four nights, Dec. 7, 8, 9 and 11, by AXIOM (a contemporary music ensemble at Juilliard), conducted by Jeffrey Milarsky and directed by Christopher Alden, with scenic design by Andrew Holland. Sounds absolutely great. (May have to go more than once! :D)
--Bruce
Scheduled performances of Carter's music are proliferating. Boosey and Hawkes' website lists 93 so far, and that's just the post 1983 stuff. Even the Delaware Symphony has scheduled to play Partita in Wilmington next year. Wilmington, for heaven's sake. Since it's only about an hour drive,I think I might go. (Though there's always a chance they might cancel, of course.)
Beauty!
This from a man who's never acually heard the quartets. ;)Well, now he will have even less reason not to hear them!
Scheduled performances of Carter's music are proliferating. Boosey and Hawkes' website lists 93 so far, and that's just the post 1983 stuff.
It's always been a slight disappointment to me that I emigrated from Scotland about a month before the Pacifica played all five at the Edinburgh festival...talk about a missed chance!
This from a man who's never actually heard the quartets. ;)
Your information is out of date :-)
The Second Quartet has a cadenza for everybody! -- except the second violin.
What's up widdat, Joe? 8)
Sir Elliott? What's up with that, Karl?
Oh, unofficial homage, that's all!
Well, OK, but it's just so ... so ... English.
Well, OK, but it's just so ... so ... English.
You know, I just realized that except for the String Quartets and the piano pieces, I haven't heard anything about performances of Mr. Carter's pre-Boosey orchestral work. Who's playing the Variations? The Symphony of Three Orchestras? The Piano and Double concertos? And the Concerto for Orchestra, which is the only one of these works I've never heard live? Orchestral programmers seem fixated on the late period.
Ah, sometimes I get the feeling I'm talking to myself.
The NY Phil and Met Orchestras have recently done the Variations in NY.
Would love to hear the Concerto for Orch, imo possibly Carter's best thing ever.
Ah, sometimes I get the feeling I'm talking to myself.
In any event, below is a list of concerts I'm planning or hoping to attend this year in celebration of Mr. Carter's centenary. If anyone knows of more on the east coast, please do list them. And send me an email if you'd like to join me for any of them. For people I've met on the net, you're all fairly harmless.
Boosey.com lists upcoming performances of Carter works, it is probably comprehensive.
Well, the site hasn't listed the What Next?s yet, and it does not include performances of anything Mr. Carter wrote before he switched over from Schirmer --- that is, anything before 1983 or so. The early and the big middle period pieces are not listed. (Why advertise someone else's product?) Note that in the reference to the Pacifica cycle, only the fourth and fifth are mentioned.
Thank you, Joe. We shall all try better in future to be gun-toting psychopaths.
Jan 18 [2008] Complete Piano music, Urusla Oppens, NYC
That Ursula knows no fear.
Levine & the BSO play Carter's Three Illusions at the Proms (http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2007/09/10/before_heading_home_the_bso_joyously_plays_the_proms/)
... I never knew there was a Figment III.
It's like the orchestra is playing one work, the singer another.
link to a Carter audio interview on the BBC...
Thanks for the interview link, but someone should tell the BBC that it's 'Elliott' with two 't's, not 'Elliot'.
Actually I did just tell them that. ;D
Hmm. They also misspell Monteux. And Stokowski. ::)
All right, show of hands: Who's coming to Boston to hear the premiere of the Horn Concerto?
Oh, and my hand is up, too, of course :)
Well, it looks like it's just you and me, Karl.
I may join you guys
too much going on in this town...
Have you heard the Pacifica play EC's quartets and how do they compare with Julliard or Arditti?
News of a the naxos recording is nice, but that evenings programme is complete overkill ... :P
p.s. should be getting the 'homages & dedications' chamber miniatures disc tomorrow... 8)
I'd like to hear the Emerson SQ tackle them too...
because to be quite honest, no recording/performance of them has really convinced me or truly blown me away thus far.
The 1st seems pretty surface bound in hindsight, the 2nd & 3rd are OK, but rather dry, joyless & unmemorable...
the 4th is deadly dull, can't even remember the darn 5th, and I've heard it too. :-X
I'm starting to think that it may take another 100 years or so before something of the calibre of the Bartok 6 arises...
I'd like to hear the Emerson SQ tackle them too...
because to be quite honest, no recording/performance of them has really convinced me or truly blown me away thus far.
The 1st seems pretty surface bound in hindsight, the 2nd & 3rd are OK, but rather dry, joyless & unmemorable...
the 4th is deadly dull, can't even remember the darn 5th, and I've heard it too. :-X
I'm starting to think that it may take another 100 years or so before something of the calibre of the Bartok 6 arises...
EC's 3rd SQ surpasses any of them (and I am a huge fan of Bartok). It is about my favorite piece of music of any type.
Big claim but not true of course (but to each his own)...
Big claim but not true of course (but to each his own)...EC's 3rd sounds rather like a technical experiment,
... [Bartok] just says so much more about being a human being than the Second Viennese School (which is IMO inferior though often beautiful & profound).
I really like a few minutes of that one bruce...the central section of Symphonia.
I'll be looking forward to comments from those here (e.g., Karl, Joe) who get to hear the new Horn Concerto in Boston next week.--Bruce
Bruce, I'm afraid Karl and I are it --- i.e., rather than e.g. --- unless we hear from Al Moritz.
Truth to tell, there are pieces I like better than both the Symphonia and the Clarinet Concerto --- particularly the Cello and Boston Concertos. The Symphonia may be one of those pieces, like the Piano Concerto or the Concerto for Orchestra, that take me a while to appreciate. Those latter two are among my favorites of any composer of any period, now.
Bruce, I'm afraid Karl and I are it --- i.e., rather than e.g. --- unless we hear from Al Moritz.
Truth to tell, there are pieces I like better than both the Symphonia and the Clarinet Concerto --- particularly the Cello and Boston Concertos. The Symphonia may be one of those pieces, like the Piano Concerto or the Concerto for Orchestra, that take me a while to appreciate. Those latter two are among my favorites of any composer of any period, now.
Yet another title from this prolific year:
Clarinet Quintet (2007) 15'
for clarinet and string quartet
This is exciting.
I would tend to concur, at this point my 5 favorite late period pieces would be (in no order)
Lumien
Changes
90+
Boston Concerto
Violin Concerto
It is exciting. I look forward to hearing this, and to seeing the score. It's good that Carter has provided the clarinet with a significant body of repertory.
Also do you really think the second figment is better than the first?
There's a Horn Concerto in my mind, / And I hope it never stops . . . .
And already, the next Carter premiere is cued up, as he has apparently completed work on a piano concerto that the orchestra will present next season.Now this sounds interesting!
Now this sounds interesting!
I almost bought the Carter book while I was in Toronto, but bulked when I considered that the book was written so many years ago and, with so many later Carter works, I really should wait for a later book.
Maybe I should have bought it...
Back to the Naxos / Pacifica disc, given that the first is #1 and #5 - will 2-4 fit on one disc? and if not what additional piece will Naxos add to the odd disc - dare we hope it is the Clarinet Quintet?
*jealousy*
Joe, the impression I get from your report is that the Horn Concerto is stylistically similar to the Boston Concerto or the final movement of Symphonia. Is this anywhere near the mark?
There was elation in The Carter Corner in Boston tonight. Heck, I even asked the maestro to autograph my program.
Did he? You didn't tell me about this.
Hadn't meant to keep you in the dark, Joe; there was much else we talked of on the ride to Medford, the "Linz of New England" 8)
Medford, the "Linz of New England"
when he turns 100 years old, we'll have to have a huge party! Dress up as costume, like Cptn. Jack Sparrow and then listen to his Variations for orchestra over and over over and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and overover and over againNot a bad idea. Come to think of it, we should start organizing it NOW. If nothing else happens, I will have a small party here in Beijing, with just three or four people (minus our wives who can't stand Carter).
Not a bad idea. Come to think of it, we should start organizing it NOW. If nothing else happens, I will have a small party here in Beijing, with just three or four people (minus our wives who can't stand Carter).
My fiancee likes Carter, and by that time, she'll be my wife!
My fiancee likes Carter, and by that time, she'll be my wife!
11 December 2008so close to mine.....
Thanks! There will be a Carter birthday celebration party in Beijing. I hope to recruit more people by then!
i'd love to come! Especially after seeing a travel video on Beijing, I've really wanted to go there 8)
who else is going?......
Unfortunately a bit blurry (not that I knew that at the time, since my reading glasses were out of commission), but you must trust me that this is a shot of Elliott Carter in the aisle of Symphony Hall at the intermission of Saturday night's concert.
Unfortunately a bit blurry (not that I knew that at the time, since my reading glasses were out of commission), but you must trust me that this is a shot of Elliott Carter in the aisle of Symphony Hall at the intermission of Saturday night's concert.
Well, this page seems to load via Firefox and not via Internet Explorer, but . . . .
Levine conducts Carter premiere, Haydn & Mahler (http://www.berkshirelinks.com/berkshires-news/bso-haydn-carter-mahler/)
Well, this page seems to load via Firefox and not via Internet Explorer, but . . . .
Levine conducts Carter premiere, Haydn & Mahler (http://www.berkshirelinks.com/berkshires-news/bso-haydn-carter-mahler/)
I'll have to check to see when Holy Week is; that would be exactly the sort of occasion to make a trip Nieuw Amsterdamward!
That's looking good right away.
Oh, I see. You can't make it during Holy Week. I forgot about the church gig.
Mark G. Simon and Karl Henning perform the music of Elliott Carter —
I have got to be there for that.
And the first volume by Naxos of the quartets are released !
Just thought I'd share these thoughts. Of course both versions are very fine and are enjoyable for different reasons.
Fred Sherry I think has the slight edge in bringing it all together (plus his pizzicato is phenominally impressive!). The orchestra also seem to act more as one which makes the architecture of the piece much clearer. I know Sherry's is a studio recording so that is an advantage of course.
Erato, I haven't seen the Naxos disk yet. Where has it been released?
On the January prerelease list at mdt.co.uk. uess it will be available in most markets by January.Naxos has it up in its December releases. If the releases hit the shops at the usual time of the month here, it'll be available just before Christmas.
Lots of interesting releases, a Fasch Passion among other things....
Finally! Joel Sachs has filled in the concert programs for Juilliard's All About Elliott festival in January. I think I'll be skipping the Monday and Tueday concerts. Most of the pieces are pretty small, and I can hear them all on CD. Bruce has posted the first and last programs earlier on this thread.
The Jan. 31 and Feb. 1 concerts look good, though: Piano Quintet, Brass Quintet and Harspichord Sonata. All great works, and I'll be interested to hear them played by students. Jan. 31 program also includes Call, a one-minute piece I haven't heard before.
FYI, there is this gem on Sunday afternoon, Jan. 27, at 5:00:
The MET Chamber Ensemble
James Levine, Artistic Director and Conductor
Anja Silja, Soprano
Gil Shaham, Violin
Yefim Bronfman, Piano
Webern: Symphony, Op. 21
Webern: Concerto for Nine Instruments, Op. 24
Berg: Chamber Concerto for Piano, Violin, and 13 Winds
Schoenberg: Pierrot lunaire
Hey, if you're not talking about Carter, take it outside. ;)
Well...perhaps Anja Silja will consider doing a Carter encore!
;D
--Bruce
Thanks for that, Joe, which I probably would have missed. PS, as an aside, when I mention the plot premise to people, at least three have asked if it's similar to Crash, the Cronenberg film! I said I didn't think there was much sex in Carter's opera (but of course I haven't seen it yet).
All most interesting. (I haven't seen the Tati film, Traffic, either, although I'm familiar with some of his others.)
Towards the end (the whole interview's a bit over 19 minutes), he talks about a possible Flute Concerto: "Many people have been asking me to write a Flute Concerto of some kind and I think I finally will, though I'm not sure I'm going to do that..." C'mon man, just do it! ;D
Towards the end (the whole interview's a bit over 19 minutes), he talks about a possible Flute Concerto: "Many people have been asking me to write a Flute Concerto of some kind and I think I finally will, though I'm not sure I'm going to do that..." C'mon man, just do it! ;D
IF (a big IF, I know) it happens, will some of you come to Beijing?
. . . this morning, I heard on the radio that someone in Scotland paid $170,000 at a charity auction to attend a Led Zeppelin reunion concert.
BTW, nice review from Anthony Tomassini in today's Times. He's says what I said much better than I could say it.
The performances were really strong. Susan Narucki...what a voice she has. And I overheard someone behind me say about the opera, "How are they able to even play that--it's so difficult!"
Maybe he really, really wanted to support that charity . . . .
Luimen (1997, for the even more unusual combination of trumpet, trombone, vibraphone, mandolin, guitar and harp) [was] fantastic.
Unusual, but inspired. As I've pointed out in the past, the breathing, sustained tones of the brass provide a contrast and underpinning to the short noteds of the plucked strings.The vibraphone, the vibraphone, with its ability to reverberate after the mallet hits the key, falls between the two groups in terms of sonority. Something else you might not know about Luimen— the solo guitar piece "Shard" appears, in its entirety, about two thirds of the way through the piece.
Bruce, I knew I was going to be jealous of you. Was there cake and champagne afterward?
I did wonder afterward what Carter did yesterday, i.e., how he celebrated.
Well, I assume he did NOT spend part of the day composing.
I'm assuming he did ... ;)
Joe, somehow I permitted the Clarinet Concerto / Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to depart from our library (must have been Lean Times). The concerto is not much longer by the clock than the Horn Concerto.
Really enjoying this disc; I don't know why it didn't click with me earlier. One of life's imponderables.
Joe, somehow I permitted the Clarinet Concerto / Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to depart from our library (must have been Lean Times).oh no, you didn't!
We already have the fruits of repentance 0:)yep 0:)
Well, now we know who will be playing the Cello Concerto next month:
From The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner
Young Fairbanks musician wins Juilliard School Concerto Competition
By Dermot Cole
Staff Writer
Published December 24, 2007
American composer Elliott Carter told an interviewer in 2001 that he wrote the complex score for “Elliott Carter’s Cello Concerto” with cellist Yo-Yo Ma in mind.
The New York Times said the piece is “like a soliloquy for cello with orchestral commentary” that features “formidably complex rhythmic writing.”
Carter, who just turned 99, is to be honored in February at the Focus! Festival in New York City with performances of his music.
Fairbanksan Dane Johansen, who is a graduate student at Juilliard, has been unanimously selected by a panel of judges to play Elliott Carter’s Cello Concerto at the concluding concert of the festival.
Johansen won the Juilliard School Concerto Competition Dec. 14 and is to perform with the Juilliard Orchestra in Lincoln Center, conducted by James Levine, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
The cello department at Juilliard has been “pleading for Carter’s Cello Concerto as a competition piece,” Joel Sachs of Juilliard wrote in the Juilliard Journal Online, but “no conductor had agreed to do it.”
In part that is because not many cellists play this concerto. The total has roughly doubled recently because of Johansen and the other students who learned it to enter the Juilliard competition.
The son of Gail and Tony Johansen, Dane said he is very excited at the chance to work with Carter and Levine, two legends in American music. Carter is scheduled to attend rehearsals and the performance.
Johansen is finishing his master’s degree in cello performance at Juilliard. He was 16 when he began studying at the Cleveland Institute of Music and has also received training at the National Conservatory in Paris.
He started learning the cello under the instruction of Peggy Swartz, who was one of the first Suzuki Method teachers in Alaska. He also studied in the Fairbanks School of Talent Education, the Fairbanks Youth Orchestras and the public school orchestras.
Saturday, February 2, 2008 Juilliard Orchestra, James Levine, conductor (Peter Jay Sharp Theater)
IVES Three Places in New England
CARTER Cello Concerto
CARTER Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei
Okay . . . so where's the Peter Jay Sharp Theater?
[ Ah, thank you, Google! ]
Joe, somehow I permitted the Clarinet Concerto / Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to depart from our library (must have been Lean Times). The concerto is not much longer by the clock than the Horn Concerto.
Really enjoying this disc; I don't know why it didn't click with me earlier. One of life's imponderables.
But Karl, hadn't you enjoyed the Symphonia live performance by the Boston Symphony 2 or 3 years ago?
In Europe he is not, at least not with me.
Let me know as soon as you actually listen to Copland's music.
;D
As much I appreciate Paul's comments about Carter, I must disagree about Copland. To me, saying Copland is just American folk is kind of like saying Dvorak is just Czech folk or Borodin is just Russian folk. There is much more to Copland than the cowboy music, and anyway, the use of folk music has a long and venrable tradition in the CM genre.
Welcome back, Paul. And you're right. Mr. Carter is well respected — and frequently played — in Europe.
Well in fact Dvorak is nothing but czech folk. Borodin russian folk.
Grieg offers danish folk but his music rises to the classical genre.
Europe currently has no CM composers. Pettersson was the last. We could say Schnittke, as he died after P, but Schnittke is slightly more russian than german influences.
Really, Europe has no classical music composers now? What about giants like Rihm and Ferneyhough?
Well, if they don't impress with 30-second clips they are probably worthless. ;D
Nothing but folk music? Really? You give the Czech and Russian peasants a lot of credit. To think that they can come up with symphonies and string quartets while sowing their fields, complete with an instinctive grasp of harmony and orchestration. How do they ever manage it?
Well, he might have eaten a few danishes, but he preferred to draw from Norwegian music.
Really, Europe has no classical music composers now? What about giants like Rihm and Ferneyhough?Who?
But Karl, hadn't you enjoyed the Symphonia live performance by the Boston Symphony 2 or 3 years ago?
Dvorak is old history.
Well, if they don't impress with 30-second clips they are probably worthless. ;D
Well, nothing wrong with that, as such :-)
So instead of programming Dvorak at concerts, radio, lets hear some Elliot Carter and much much less from Dvorak.Agreed! ;D
For everytime Dvorak is programmed at a concert we should see Carter 10 times on the schedule.
Elliot Carter is america's only classical composer, with Ives as runner up and 2 masterpieces from Ruggles.
Agreed! ;D
Well, this puzzles me. If Carter is America's only classical composer, how can there be a runner up? Or two? And I would think the criticism of Copland also applies to Ives: the nonclassical use of folk music, if nonclassical it is, which it isn't. ???
Anyway, we're off topic here. This thread is about Elliott Carter, and I'd appreciate moving extended criticism of Copland et al. elsewhere. Some big big Carter concerts coming up in the next couple of weeks, and I want to save my strength. ;)
Elliot Carter stands unique in my entire collection. Not a dud in all his works, all first rate creative classical.
I like where you're coming from. :)
Joe
The only cd I'm missing is that new Naxos with his 2 early works, a sym and...oh post the cd, you know it.
Il Cartellone: RAI NUOVA MUSICA
In diretta dall'Auditorium Rai Arturo Toscanini di Torino
Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della RAI
direttore, Peter Rundel
Elliott Carter
Boston Concerto (2002) per orchestra
(prima esecuzione italiana)
---------------------------------------------
WHAT NEXT?
Opera in un atto su libretto di Paul Griffiths
musica di Elliott Carter
(prima esecuzione italiana)
Rose, Christine Buffle
Harry o Larry, Dean Elzinga
Mama, Sarah Leonard
Zen, William Joyner
Stella, Hilary Summers
Kid (voce bianca), dal Tölzer Knaben Chor
Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della RAI
direttore, Peter Rundel (3 hrs., 30 min.)
You must mean the Naxos disk with Symphony No. 1 and the Piano Concerto, with Mark Wait on piano and Kenneth Schermerhorn (how we miss him) conducting the Nashville Symphony. The Symphony is from Carter's neo-classical period and dates from about 1940. The Piano Concerto, a fully mature work, was written in 1964-65. The earliest works Carter has not withdrawn are from the mid-30s, so his career has lasted just about 70 years. The great Cello Sonata, the first true transition to the mature style, was written 60 years ago this year. Time scales become Einsteinian when one talks about Mr. Carter.
The Composers Quartet recorded the third and fourth quartets years ago, but unfortunately the recordings have been out of print for some time now. I have both, and they're terrific. The recording of the Fourth is, I believe, the best done so far, though I will have to hear the Pacifica's version on Naxos later this year.
I undertsand what you mean when you call Carter a third-generaton Viennese. Charles Rosen uses the term "international" to describe Carter's style. (He has also used the term to descibe Mozart.) I would add, though, that Carter is Viennese only in the sense that he's atonal. He sounds nothing like Schoenberg or Webern, he's not a serialist, and his technique of layering sounds derives more from Ives than anyone else.
The Prez ;D
paul, I had no idea you were such a Carter fan.
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Sunday a week ago I saw the New York Chamber Soloists in a free concert at the National Gallery of Art. The program included a performance of Esprit Rude/Esprit Doux with flutist Jennifer Grim and clarinetist Allen Blustine. Their technique is very fluid. All the notey passages undulated like the motions of a snake. And they made the most of the passages where two voices are contained in one instrument, for instance on the 2nd from last page where they're both scrambling but a recurring fifth space E is emphasized. The emphasized notes were put strongly in the foreground and the other notes distinctly in the background. Unfortunately, in this reverberent space, the background notes were mostly lost. Also lost were the powerful difference tones produced by the two instruments in the section with long sustained notes. But any shortcomings were because of the acoustics of the space, not the performers, who were excellent.
The rest of the program contained a Soanta for flute, oboe, violin, viola and continuo by Vivaldi, the Mozart Piano Quartet in E flat, a Caprice on Danish and Russian Airs by Saint-Saëns, and a piece for narrator and ensemble called The Chess Game by Gerald Fried, whom I've never heard of. Apparently he's written a lot of film and TV music.
Well, now we know who will be playing the Cello Concerto next month:
From The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner
Young Fairbanks musician wins Juilliard School Concerto Competition
By Dermot Cole
Staff Writer
Published December 24, 2007
American composer Elliott Carter told an interviewer in 2001 that he wrote the complex score for “Elliott Carter’s Cello Concerto” with cellist Yo-Yo Ma in mind.
The New York Times said the piece is “like a soliloquy for cello with orchestral commentary” that features “formidably complex rhythmic writing.”
Carter, who just turned 99, is to be honored in February at the Focus! Festival in New York City with performances of his music.
Fairbanksan Dane Johansen, who is a graduate student at Juilliard, has been unanimously selected by a panel of judges to play Elliott Carter’s Cello Concerto at the concluding concert of the festival.
Johansen won the Juilliard School Concerto Competition Dec. 14 and is to perform with the Juilliard Orchestra in Lincoln Center, conducted by James Levine, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
The cello department at Juilliard has been “pleading for Carter’s Cello Concerto as a competition piece,” Joel Sachs of Juilliard wrote in the Juilliard Journal Online, but “no conductor had agreed to do it.”
In part that is because not many cellists play this concerto. The total has roughly doubled recently because of Johansen and the other students who learned it to enter the Juilliard competition.
The son of Gail and Tony Johansen, Dane said he is very excited at the chance to work with Carter and Levine, two legends in American music. Carter is scheduled to attend rehearsals and the performance.
Johansen is finishing his master’s degree in cello performance at Juilliard. He was 16 when he began studying at the Cleveland Institute of Music and has also received training at the National Conservatory in Paris.
He started learning the cello under the instruction of Peggy Swartz, who was one of the first Suzuki Method teachers in Alaska. He also studied in the Fairbanks School of Talent Education, the Fairbanks Youth Orchestras and the public school orchestras.
Very disappointingly, this concert may be impossible for the general public to attend. Free tickets went on sale 1/11 and were available only if you could get to the Juilliard box office in person from 11-6 on weekdays. Even though I came into NYC on Saturday 1/12 and tried calling the box office on Monday, this exclusionary policy effectively shuts out anyone like myself who lives outside Manhattan. By 1/14 tickets were all gone, and the only possible way to get in is to stand on a standby line 1-2 hours before the concert.
Well, there's always Tanglewood.
And if you do go, Sforzando, please seek out Bruce and me and introduce yourself. Bruce did manage to get tickets, so we'll definitely be there. We'll be the tall, good-looking ones.
Well, "gents" is kind of stretching it.
Well, "gents" is kind of stretching it.
How about "irascible upstarts"? ;D
Emendation accepted ;D
Not from the behavior of you both which I have had occasion to witness.
You have not seen me home ... alone ... feeding ...
Wouldn't it have been a kick if she had done those most recent pieces as encores...
In a city of at least four million tall, good-looking, irascible upstarts, that definitely narrows it down . . . .
In a city of at least four million tall, good-looking, irascible upstarts, that definitely narrows it down . . . .
For everyone: During intermission, I eavesdropped on an interview Carter gave to a man holding a microphone, and he confirmed he is indeed working on a flute concerto. :D
:o :o :o
How many other composers have done this at 100? (For that matter, how many composers have even reached 100?)
Carter is only 99.
Carter is only 99.
Only?!
Sorry, my bad--getting over-excited. I should have said, "approaching 100."
--Bruce
Irony, Mr. Barron. Irony.
Why is it called Ma-tribute? Is it a tribute to Yo-Yo Ma?
Thans for the concert write up - I assume Cantenaires is not out on CD yet...
I'll be playing double bass in this concert coming up. The ASKO Concerto has a very difficult and long double bass and clarinet duo which I've been practicing a lot. If anyone in New York can make it it should be a very good performance.
New Juilliard Ensemble
Joel Sachs, Conductor
FOUR CARTER WORKS
Three Poems of Robert Frost (1980)
Quintet for Piano and winds (1991)
Asko Concerto (2000)
Tempo e tempi (1999)
Asko Concerto (repeat performance)
Peter Jay Sharp Theater
Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Free; no tickets required.
At the moment, the best I can find is this "Future Releases: Coming in 2008" page (http://cedillerecords.org/catalog/product_info_related.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=223)on Cedille's site. Since it's at the end of the list, it might suggest a release later in the year, e.g., maybe closer to Carter's birthday.
--Bruce
Well, if she can't play Matribute until after Levine does it in July, I figure the release will have to wait at least until then. I hadn't heard Rosen was recording the complete music again. (He already did it once, before some Carter wrote the more recent pieces.)How does Rosen's more recent complete recording compare with the Etcetera one that only has the Piano Sonata and Night Fantasies?
I'll be playing double bass in this concert coming up. The ASKO Concerto has a very difficult and long double bass and clarinet duo which I've been practicing a lot. If anyone in New York can make it it should be a very good performance.
New Juilliard Ensemble
Joel Sachs, Conductor
FOUR CARTER WORKS
Three Poems of Robert Frost (1980)
Quintet for Piano and winds (1991)
Asko Concerto (2000)
Tempo e tempi (1999)
Asko Concerto (repeat performance)
Peter Jay Sharp Theater
Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Free; no tickets required.
How does Rosen's more recent complete recording compare with the Etcetera one that only has the Piano Sonata and Night Fantasies?
Night Fantasies is good Carter, 90+ not so much...Rosen's recording of NF is just awesome IMO. A long time fave Carter disc.
Nonsense paul, listen to it again...they are very exciting, spontaneous sounding & passionate performances....Night Fantasies & the Piano Sonata. Highest recommendations!!!
Yup the one with all the positive reviews there on Amazon, great disc...
Night Fantasies is good Carter, 90+ not so much...Rosen's recording of NF is just awesome IMO. A long time fave Carter disc.
My own favorite recordings of Night Fantasies so far are by Oppens on a Music and Arts two CD set (CD 862) that includes a lot of other music by contemporary Americans, and by Stephen Drury, who gets overlooked but is as just as good as Oppens and better than everyone else, IMHO. His version can be heard free at artofthestates.com. Try before you buy.
The 1st reviewer on the Rosen cd, gives mostly 5 stars to all his reviews. Not too selective if you ask me.
I almost always give five on my reviews, because I only write reviews for CDs that I love. Occasionally I will write one for one that I think is particularly bad
What do people think of the new Naxos release of the first and fifth quartets?
Oddly if you try and download it from itunes it has recordings of Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto among other things...
Bruce, who had been standing a few feet away, was goggling at me as though I had just met the ghost of Lincoln.
Great evening, all around, and we have an entire week of Carter to go, with lots of his chamber music. I hope to make several of these before the closing night next Saturday, when Levine will do Ives's Three Places in New England, followed by Carter's Cello Concerto and Symphonia: sum fluxae pretieum spei, all with the Juilliard Orchestra. It's going to be a blockbuster of a concert.
--Bruce
Thanks for the reviews guys - I wish more was going on here!
I can;t imagine a more stimulating or exciting concert than this:
Come on Joe, pull some strings there in NYC and get us some Carter shows down here. ;)
Bruce Hodges and I got together last night in NYC for the first concert in Juilliard's Focus Festival dedicated to Elliott Carter. I won't go into too much detai, but Bruce and I agreed it was exhilarating and memorable. In a word, great. Boulez conducted members of the New Juilliard Ensemble and the Lucerne Festival Academy Ensemble in lucid performmances of Carter's Triple Duo, Penthode and Clarinet Concerto. To put the music in context, the program also included Integrales by Varese, Stravinsky's Concertino for Twelve Instruments, and Boulez' own Derive I, which was very pretty. (Bruce called it an extension of Debussy, and I saw no reason to argue.)whoaaaaaaa man i wish i was there!
Ismail Lumanovski was the soloist in the concerto, and he was astonishing. There's no other word for it. Irrespective of the music, he was exciting to watch and he jerked his body to the music and his fingers fluttered over the instrument. Wow.
I had a brief encounter during intermission. I was in the corridor, having emerged from the men's room, when James Levine stepped out of a side door and asked me how long the intermission would be. Maybe it was because I was the only person near him, or maybe he thought I was an usher. I don't know. I also didn't know how long the intermission was supposed to be, but I was eager to please, so I winged it. Looking at my fifteen-dollar digital watch, I told him he should have another ten minutes or so. He thanked me and went back into the side door, presumably to return downstairs and speak to Carter. Bruce, who had been standing a few feet away, was goggling at me as though I had just met the ghost of Lincoln.
Turns out I wasn't too far wrong about the ten minutes, which was a relief. I had visions of Levine speaking to me afterward to express his disappointment.
Yeah, I'll call my good buddy James Levine. I told him the time once.:D
i had a friend once who kept on mentioning the time he talked to Tiger Woods, and he said something like, "you're going to become something some day"
I interviewed John Updike for the paper once, and it was days before people in the office realized his middle name wasn't f***ing ...lol, i wonder what he'd think about that.
Bruce, who had been standing a few feet away, was goggling at me as though I had just met the ghost of Lincoln.
Nice review of the concert in today's Times. (http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2008/01/28/arts/music/28focus.html&tntemail1=y) I like that Mr. Tomassini calls Boulez a contemporary Ravel, since Bruce pointed that out Friday, though he used the name Debussy. Nice going, Bruce!
Nice review of the concert in today's Times. (http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2008/01/28/arts/music/28focus.html&tntemail1=y) I like that Mr. Tomassini calls Boulez a contemporary Ravel, since Bruce pointed that out Friday, though he used the name Debussy. Nice going, Bruce!I think Bruce is more accurate than Tomassini. ;)
Tomorrow is C-Day in Canada: the first of the Pacifica recordings should arrive in shops on Tuesday!
LOOK!! The lines outside Barnes & Noble have already formed!!!
Well, today I got my Pacifica's recording of Carter's First and Fifth Quartets on Naxos. Tonioght I listened to the Fifth, twice. It's a crisp, full-throated reading, very enjoyable. I'd say it's worth the price of admission. I'll get back to you again when I've listened to the First.
Were any of you fortunate enough to get to the Pacifica cycle tonight? (Or rather, since it's close to 1 am, yesterday evening.) Marvelous playing.
Alas, I had thought about it but had some other things to attend to, since I'm going to concerts basically every night for a week, including the final Carter concert on Saturday.
I bet it was fantastic. Were there many people there? (I know the Ethical Culture Society can seat quite a few.) And was Carter there?
--Bruce
It was kind of fantastic. No #1 in particular, my favorite of the five, was done as well as I've ever heard. Not completely sold out, but Carter was there - looking quite frail as of now.
I hope I can get into Saturday night's event. If not, Tanglewood here I come. (Which I probably will do anyway.)
Really, you didn't like the Aimard recording? :'(
American chamber groups /pianists need to drop all their projects and get busy on Carter
The cantakerous Critic..
Nice review. The Guardian's Andrew Clements likes it too: http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/andrewclements/story/0,,2250178,00.html
Herewith my review of the new Naxos recording, which should appear soon at Amazon. I gave the disk four stars, and no, I didn't get to see the Pacifica in New York last night. :(
It shouldn’t be necessary to mention in every review that Elliott Carter will turn 100 in December 2008 and that at 99 he is still vital and composing, but it’s just too impressive and heartening a fact to ignore. As a centenary offering, Naxos is releasing Carter’s five string quartets in two volumes, performed by the Pacifica Quartet. This first disk contains the composer’s first and last (to date) works in the genre.
The First, from 1951, is generally considered Carter’s breakthrough into his signature brand of modernism — a sweeping, forty minute tour de force, in three big sections, teeming with all the technical and expressive idea that had been lurking in the composer’s subconscious. The Pacifica, a young group, plays with energy and a high polish that emphasizes beauty over drama, and a blending rather than a confrontation of instruments. The rich sound is particularly impressive in the opening Maestoso. The players seem to lose focus in the transition between the adagio and the variations, but they recover in the finale, which, in their hands, is luminous, rather than driving. The work is multifaceted and deep enough to support the approach. The Pacifica reveals a side to Carter that, in the face of all the clichés about his spiky modernism, has been unfairly overlooked.
The Fifth Quartet, which appeared forty-four years after the First, inhabits much the same sound world, but on a more concentrated, intimate scale. The piece is half the length of the First Quartet, yet it has twice as many tracks, each between one and three minutes long. The introduction is followed by six movements, each with a single, sustained character, separated by five interludes that mix together fragments of the extended music. Carter has compared the piece to a chamber rehearsal, in which the musicians comment on what they’ve just played or try out bits of what they are going to play later. The piece is also self-referential, recapping textures, techniques and moods, though not literal passages, from his four earlier quartets. The pizzicato Capriccioso that ends the work recalls the Third Quartet, the Presto scorrevole refers directly to the Allegro scorrevole of the First Quartet, and some the solo passages in the interludes remind me of the solos in the Second. Carter says he wrote the Fifth Quartet as a “farewell to the previous four and an exploration of a new vision,” though we may still hope it is not a farewell to the form itself. The notes, by Bayan Northcott, say the music has a playful, divertimento-like character, but I must add this lightness does not rule out many passages of great power and anguished lyricism. The Pacific gives a crisp reading that benefits from a spacious reverb. Brandon Vamos’ incisive, rich-toned cello playing in this piece deserves special mention.
A second Naxos disk, containing the Pacifica’s recordings Second, Third and Fourth quartets, is scheduled for release in summer of 2008. When it arrives, we shall at last have a unified cycle of Carter’s greatest chamber music, played, moreover, by enthusiastic young champions who understand and love it. That’s a present worthy of the man’s hundredth birthday.
So does the Times. (http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2008/02/01/arts/music/01paci.html&tntemail1=y)
Excellent write-up, Joe!
Well, then, go to Amazon and give me a helpful vote! ;)
Well, then, go to Amazon and give me a helpful vote! ;)
Well, gee, I didn't mean to press anyone's buttons. I like the Juilliard's set of the quartets on Sony, especially the Second, which is the performance I listen to more than any other. As for the tempos in the first, what some call sluggish, I would call luxuriant.
Well, then, go to Amazon and give me a helpful vote! ;)
Done!
--Bruce
Ditto.
Well, a couple more and my Amazon reviewer's rank shoots up from 22461 to 22460.
Been listening to this cd and just thought I'd express what i feel.
Special mention on Urusla Oppens amazing skills and her musical mind.
Elliott Carter, [...] world's greatest living composer.
Been listening to this cd and just thought I'd express what i feel.
Where are you guys? ???
Where are you guys? ???
Still, as you can tell from the verbosity of this review, I'm still buzzing about the Symphonia, even after ten hours sleep. And it's not the coffee talking, either.
Unfortunately, Mr. Carter was not there to hear the ovations. According to Joel Sachs, he was feeling "under the weather" and stayed home. He must have been worn out from all the excitement earlier in the week.
--------------
* But Juilliard cannot be entirely congratulated for the way it handled the standby line. I arrived at about 6:30 to see about 15 people ahead of me. At 7 a woman gave us standby numbers and told us to return at 5 before 8. This was fine, as it gave enough time for a quick bite; but when we got back to the door at 7:50 and the crowd had increased substantially, the same woman was yelling at the top of her lungs to all the standby holders to "Get behind the barricades!" as if we were a bunch of cattle or worse. And then it became a mad scramble to find seats, as we were not given actual seat assignments and there was confusion as to where people could or could not sit. C'mon, Juilliard, you could have handled things more professionally than this.
But in the slower outer movements, the many layers of Ives's textures didn't emerge clearly enough; surely the waters of the Housatonic in 1915 hadn't yet turned to the sludge one heard from Levine's interpretation.
Very insightful review, Sf, though I think I liked the outer movements of Three Places more than you did. I thought the first was especially fine. The piece is a ghost march, and the performance captured that for me — both mysterious and mournful. Beautiful stuff.
...
I passed on reading the Times review today. It was written by Bernard Holland. Ugh.
Holland's review was appreciative, and I don't think you'd react negatively if it appeared here pseudonymously.
There is an element of Mr. Carter in Ives’s music but also a world of difference.
How can there be an element of Mr. Carter in Ives's music? Ives never heard a note of Carter. I was also put off the by Holland's lede, which describes the other night's program as a "big mouthful" of Carter's music. What an ugly expression. It does appear, though, that years after deriding Carter's devotees as elitsts preaching to the great unwashed, Mr. Holland has come to appreciate the composer's achievment somewhat. He has also bitten off a big mouthful. I won't say of what. ;)
Here he's actually projecting history backwards, like the person who listens to Mozart's C minor Piano Concerto and remarks that "there's a lot of Beethoven in it".
Actually there's a lot of Ives in Carter, for Carter's poly-tempo constructions are just a formalized version of Ives' two marching bands coming together.
Perfect example of Bloom's point: "the uncanny effect is that the new poem's achievement makes it seem to us, not as though the precursor were writing it, but as though the later poet himself had written the precursor's characteristic work."
Although I have certainly heard Mozart's influence on Beethoven, it has never occurred to me that Beethoven wrote Mozart's most characteristic work, not even "as though."
I wonder what may have influenced his original and provocative approaches . . . .
I agree with this, though I think I might have hestiated before including the word "just." ;)
Although I have certainly heard Mozart's influence on Beethoven, it has never occurred to me that Beethoven wrote Mozart's most characteristic work, not even "as though."
Now how does this happen, Beethoven influences Mozart ???
I wonder what may have influenced his original and provocative approaches . . . .
;D
Why, it's just as though Bloom wrote Nietzsche's Case of Wagner.
Kidding aside, Sf, I can appreciate what you're getting at. I'll have to read the Bloom if I get the chance. I also think you're right about Holland: He was probably just being imprecise. ;)
I'm sorry I brought it up . . . .
Oh, not a bit, sforzando!
There may be some
There are some composers in which i hear way too much of an influence from another contemporary composer, which makes me suspect and cautious to accept the work.
And yet, Carter never (to my knowledge) has been accused of sounding too much like Charles Ives.
And yet, Carter never (to my knowledge) has been accused of sounding too much like Charles Ives.
One of the things that makes Carter's 1st quartet so powerful is the overwhelming sense of discovery. Carter has just discovered his true voice and is proclaiming "This is who I am" as well as "this is where I came from".
The sense of multiple things happening at once is similar - I always thought if you replaced the tonal or quotational material in Ives with pre-12 tone Schoenberg material you would get a very rough approximation of Carter
Haven't seen anything posted so just wondering if the NY folks are aware of this:
http://www.symphonyspace.org/event/2110 (http://www.symphonyspace.org/event/2110)
Looks like fun,
Allan
The festival of contemporary music runs from July 20 to 24 and is devoted entirely to Elliott Carter.
Ah well; those of us who write contemporary music, yet who are not Elliott Carter must set our hopes on next summer 8)
I am pleased for Carter that he did not have to wait nearly so long for public recognition 0:)
There are those, of course, who would say he has never actually achieved public recognition. 0:)
Where a *composer* like Philip Glass has a place of prominence along side of Elliott Carter.
Joe, Joe: world premieres in Symphony Hall are not a private affair!
Period 0:)
Entirely James Levine's doing, and the public complains about it
Entirely James Levine's doing, and the public complains about it, despite all the energy he has brought to Boston.
And I agree with Paul about PG.
Two Pulitzer Prizes, in 1960 and 1973, are no private affair, either.
Pulitzer Prize = almost absolute meaningless.
If there were no public for Carter in Boston, Levine would scarcely be in any position for this to be "entirely his doing."
One does weary tired of expending the energy needed to be a contrarian and longs to rest in the good fellowship of the crowd.
I mostly enjoyed the concert here, although the venue (the Leonard Nimoy Thalia Theater) is a little too dry for piano music.
;D Now we know whom to call when we need to get people's attention around here.
--Bruce
What, is someone keeping score? The composer with the most innovations wins?
That is hardly the point. However, what I have a problem with is stagnation in an "avantgarde" style since this is self-defeating by definition: it leads to the oxymoron of "traditionalist modernism" (and indeed, comparison with Stockhausen tends to highlight this problem particularly sharply). But as I said, I have ultimately found that this is not quite the case with Carter too.
I had never any issue with "innovation" in Nono, Schnittke, Ferneyhough, Rihm etc.
Then I have to say I have a problem with the whole notion of an "avant-garde", the status of which is, as you note, quite ephemeral. A composer either writes good music or not.
For a long time, Stockhausen’s tremendous and continuous innovation up to his last works distracted my attention away from Carter who, as I thought, could not only not compete in this area, but was a hopeless under-achiever. Yet hardly any composer has shown as much innovation as Stockhausen, and as I said, I discovered that Carter is considerably more innovative than I had given him credit for. Paradoxically, after it had led me away from Carter, engagement with Stockhausen’s music again led me back to Carter: in the process of writing an essay on Licht-Bilder I felt the urge to listen to Carter in comparison. How things can come full circle in their own particular manner.
the passion of this discussion is all good ...but the best music from the 3 names above is mainly found in their late/mature output, showing that they continued to hone and develop and most importantly distill all that into profound pieces that for the most part greatly surpassed many prior achievements...not so sure the same can be said for Elliott Carter..who's best stuff seems to be largely behind him (50s & 60s) and fewer highlights since those days...
I have said in an earlier post that I do not regard Carter as an innovator in the same sense as Ives or Schoenberg, or perhaps Stockhausen. He does seem to have been content to explore the possibilities of his own personal voice within a range of technical possibilities he had discovered by the 1960s. (This is not to say he has not expanded the musical language.) All I can say is 1) It never struck me as a drawback, given the richness of his output, and 2) other great composers in the past have also settled for what Al calls a personal style and worked in it consistently over time. Bach, Haydn and Brahms come to mind. Once these masters found their voice, it did not seem to change much on a technical level. Still, I don't remember anyone ever accusing Bach of repeating himself even when, later in life, he was rearranging earlier material into his keyboard concertos. Haydn, too, wrote twenty-five symphonies in his mature style, and dozens of string quartets, and still kept it fresh.
Back in the early nineties, I spoke with a cellist who had just taken part in a performance of Carter's first four string quartets, and he told me that the pieces dealt consistently with the same concerns, despite having been written decades apart. The critic the next day said the same thing, but less sympathetically. In essence, he said, Carter had not done anything new in thirty years, . . .
I remember that post-concert drink, too. I assume Josie has recovered from the peanut bombardment. ;)
the passion of this discussion is all good ...but the best music from the 3 names above is mainly found in their late/mature output, showing that they continued to hone and develop and most importantly distill all that into profound pieces that for the most part greatly surpassed many prior achievements...not so sure the same can be said for Elliott Carter..who's best stuff seems to be largely behind him (50s & 60s) and fewer highlights since those days...
My impression of the Cello Concerto was quite different from yours. I was in awe of it and remain so to this day. I think it's one of his greatest works, and to my ear, it is a direct descendant of the the white hot manner you admire.
Yes, but the “problem” with Carter was that his modernist style was so radical and new when it broke through that obviously it had to elicit associations with the “avant-garde” concept very much alive at the time (I am apparently not the only one who perceived it that way). And the avant-garde promise, which involves constant future change, is hard to keep
his contribution to cello music, while fairly small in number of actual pieces (4) has been enormous. Hopefully the cello concerto will join the sonata as a repertoire piece.
Hey Al, this year I'm going to try make an effort to explore KS's later output...you seem like a fan, what in your estimation is the best of the best from the later stuff. Things are that are perhaps up there with things like the early klavierstuck, gruppen, zeitmasse, kontakte or mantra? Thanks in advance.
He said "Himmelfahrt!" Tee hee hee! :P
We'll be back in just a minute with Elliott Carter, but first, let's break for "Box of Rain" . . . .
The thin scoring would also insure that the flute doesn't get overwhelmed.
You might try the cello concerto - it is in many ways fairly similar to the clarinet concerto, but I think an even stronger work. Like the clarinet concerto it takes a few listens to get into, or perhaps the right mindset as you described, but the effort pays dividends - its a fantastic piece!
I don't see any similarities with the clarinet concerto,
I take that back in view of the common features of Carter's style throughout his works, but still, the comparison with the clarinet concerto is far-fetched, in my view.
Al, I've enjoyed very much reading your posts on the Clarinet Concerto. I went went back this afternoon and listened to the piece for the first time since seeing Ismail Lumanovski perform it live in New York on January 28. That performance was so dazzling and satisfying that I felt no need to hear the thing again for a while. Your comparison to Coltrane is apt and telling. I now think of the piece as a "bop" concerto, as opposed to the Copland Clarinet Concerto, which I now define as "swing." I have a greater appreciation for it as a result, and I think I'm hearing it better now, too.
Naturally the clarinet is more closely recorded in the recording, but he was as easy to hear in the performance I attended.
An interesting feature of the piece was that he moved around the stage during the performance, each movement positioning himself nearer a different section of the orchestra.
Seeing the Clarinet concerto live at the Barbican in London with Collins on Clarinet and Knussen conducting was one of the best concert experiences of my life, if not the best.
so there must be instructions in the score to do so. It made it just as interesting to watch, as to hear.
Perhaps this has been posted before, but this podcast contains an awesome interview with Carter in which he describes his development as a composer and an explanation about the quartets. It also previews the latest Naxos release.Nice....... how'd you find it?
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/NaxosClassicalMusicSpotlight/~5/225004776/carter_interview.mp3[/mp3]
Nice....... how'd you find it?
It is part of a series of Naxos podcasts (http://www.naxos.com/podcasts/podcastslist.asp) they put out each week that features a new recording.Wow, what a find! Lots of good stuff here, just turned on the podcast for the Wooden Prince and the opening itself makes me wanna listen......
This concert on Tuesday:
Juilliard String Quartet
Charles Neidich, clarinet
Carter: Clarinet Quintet (2007, world premiere)
Carter: Riconoscenza per Goffredo Petrassi for solo violin (1984)
Carter: Figment for solo cello (1994)
Carter: Gra for solo clarinet (1993)
Carter: Rhapsodic Musings for solo violin (2001)
Carter: Figment IV for solo viola (2007)
Carter: Clarinet Quintet (2007) - repeat performance
--Bruce
Wow, was this a great evening! Joe will probably weigh in, too, but this was no doubt one of the best Carter tributes of the year. The new Clarinet Quintet is delightful, and at roughly 14 minutes long, it was easy to repeat it. Just before the second performance, Carter discussed the three movements of the piece, with demos from the musicians. Frankly, I hope I am half this lucid at age 99. ;)I'm envious.
--Bruce
I'm envious.
Having the clarinet quintet in three movements is an interesting break from his recent chamber work: are the three movements played without a break or are they fully separate?
Click here (http://processedsound.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/long-lost-bsu-festival-of-new-music-posts-1/) to watch and listen to a performance of Mr. Carter's Shard played on electric guitar.I saw that a couple days ago.
It is also the second time I can recall seeing a short work of Mr. Carter's perfromed from memory.
Well, three movements were listed in the program, but Carter spoke as if there were four, and the piece certainly had a four-movement feel.
Also true of the first string quartet. I hope the clarinet quintet is just as compelling.
Yes, but lighter, more playful.
I try to avoid ad hominem arguments, but God, you're a dick.
fuck you if you cannot take a joke
BWV's post was so clearly a joke he felt he didn't have to underline the point.
OK, my skin is not that thin.
Just shocking to be publicly insulted like that by someone I had heretofore respected
I thought the post was funny
Oh, so it was a joke. Sorry. My bad. I always thought jokes were supposed to be funny. :-\
You know any good jokes, Joe?
Elliott Carter, Pierre Boulez, John Cage & Elvis Costello were in a bar . . . .
At the Look & Listen Festival tonight, I'm hearing more Carter, Retracing (2002) for solo bassoon, apparently excerpted from the Asko Concerto. Have heard the Concerto but not sure I've come across the bassoon piece.
--Bruce
Shard was the first (and only) other piece I have heard about that was an lift out of a single instrumental part from a larger piece. Is Carter the only composer to have done this? Can we expect a solo piano piece extracted from the Concerto for Orchestra (that would be cool)?I thought Shard was the original piece and Luimen incorporated it into one of its four sections?
Shard was the first (and only) other piece I have heard about that was an lift out of a single instrumental part from a larger piece. Is Carter the only composer to have done this? Can we expect a solo piano piece extracted from the Concerto for Orchestra (that would be cool)?
I also think Shard was composed first, and incorporated into the Luimen, rather than the other way around, but I'd have to double check that.
Joe, white courtesy telephone, please!
Hey! I'm mentioned in the Syndey Morning Herald.--JB ;D
Last year an April Fools' Day email announced he was renouncing modernism in favour of folk-song settings, but judging by the way he is going, Carter will outlive the wit who wrote it.
From the Boston Globe. The new violin-cello duet sounds exciting, but then everything Carter does these days sounds exciting.--JB
Hey Joe, must admit that I was disappointed when he said that; and how he said it, first because there is no way to predict the future, and more importantly because in a way it implies that he writes his music for the sake of being merely clever, and you have to be a sharp person to comprehend it. It struck me as being quite condescending & pompous.
Well it’s not the first time he’s said something stupid, irregardless of intent; it's the sort-of talk composers should really get away from & avoid if they're ever going to relate to people. In essence it really does come off like “I write music that’s very clever and only in a future-world of ever increasing complexity where people ‘perhaps’ will become more clever and sharper will it be truly understood, cuz I’m a really sophisticated guy’ (add condescending grin here)
Well it’s not the first time he’s said something stupid . . . .
Something, happily, of which you are never guilty yourself.lol
Composers really should stop talking like this. "For a later age" --- fah! He thinks he's just so cool and sophisticated and so much smarter than us. He'll never connect to people with an attitude like that.should be that way....... except society is devolving instead......
should be that way....... except society is devolving instead......
This is from private talk, not a movie where the composer is making pretentious statements for all to see. Carter's music isn't ahead of the times; it's quite old news now and a more populated & cluttered world won't necessarily lead to increased cleverness, sharpness, awareness or popularity, if anything the opposite.
You have to stop talking like that if you're ever going to connect with people.lol, yeah, i know.......
hahaha
start for what Joe?
It makes you wonder why men gave up wearing bathing tops.
Be grateful I don't upload a photo from one of Craft's books of Stravinsky taking the sun in the nude.Oh, I'm grateful.......
please spare us, please :-[
Would you happier if I Photoshopped a fig leaf on the right place?
Just say NO to naked composers.there's no need to even make a campaign out of that....
Just noticed while on Amazon that EMI re-released Knussen's classic account of Carter's greatest work for orchestra...this disc is a must for any Carter fan, or the more adventurous/curious listener...a clear, authoritative & committed performance.
LINK >> Elliott Carter: Concerto for Orchestra (http://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Carter-Concerto-Orchestra-Occasions/dp/B0016MJ3M2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1216750830&sr=8-1)
Just wish-listed it.
What have I done?! :o
;D
Welcome to...The Dark Side. >:D ;D
Seriously, I guess I missed that CD in its original incarnation. Will definitely get that one as well.
--Bruce
I intend to read this thread the coming days. The first Carter pieces I'll be listening to are several 'Firsts' - First Piano Sonata, First String Quartet, First Symphony... and the Woodwind Quintet.
I have the early Symphony (naxos), he didn't have his identity then...it's not representative and a snore really (i'd say skip it). The Piano Sonata is his first truly great work. A must-have.
I intend to read this thread the coming days. The first Carter pieces I'll be listening to are several 'Firsts' - First Piano Sonata, First String Quartet, First Symphony... and the Woodwind Quintet.
No doubt; Scriabin's music really captures the heart & soul of the jazz musician. Gut wrenchingly lyrical and harmonically adventurous. Lots of jazzers love Scriabin.
My next project is to digitize all my old Carter LPs, that aren't duplicated on CD. Last night it was Frederick Prausnitz conducting the Variations for Orchestra. Wow, I'd forgotten what a piece it is.
I first posted this on another forum, but I repeat it here for you Carterphiles.
My next project is to digitize all my old Carter LPs, that aren't duplicated on CD. Last night it was Frederick Prausnitz conducting the Variations for Orchestra. Wow, I'd forgotten what a piece it is.
This is probably the best piece for a Carter newbie. It has so many trademarks of his mature style, but is also structurally transparent. It has a theme you can follow, the variations are distinct in character, and it has a dramatic sweep from beginning to end, culminating in an exhilerating fortissimo restatement of the principal motive of the theme, which unleashes a tumultous episode for solo trombone and timpani.
It very much follows the same format as Schoenberg's orchestral variations, op. 31: an introduction that opens mysteriously, a theme stated in the lower strings, 9 variations of varied character, and an extended coda with an wild climax.
Last night I had the feeling that Carter had improved upon his model.
The Prausnitz Carter album was recorded in England in the late 1960s on Columbia. The orchestra is the New Philharmonia. The other side has the Double Concerto with Paul Jacobs on harpsichord and Charles Rosen on piano, and the English Chamber Orchestra. The cover shows the 60-year-old Carter sitting outdoors on a wicker chair, appearing to be deep in thought. One assumed these must be very late works, and would have few successors. Now it's 40 years later and the guy is cranking them out faster than ever.
I can't believe I wrote "an wild climax".
I can't believe I wrote "an wild climax".
a wild climax.
I had a dream last night that I was listening to the Carter Double Concerto and it had a loud ending. Kind of like the crashing chord that begins the coda, only it came back and ended the piece with an abrupt cut-off.
It made me think of how many Carter pieces have loud endings. Not too many. More often there's an all-out climax and then the music subsides.
Symphonies in C major don't just end on the note C, after all. There's got to be an E there somewhere to establish the tonality. The note C, by itself, means nothing, or at least it is not enough in itself to establish a key.
Some music is very difficult to appreciate, some of it is very easy. I'm finding Carter's string quartets very difficult to digest. Of course, some may find this to be the complete opposite.
But does this mean it should not be performed?
You don't need a degree to enjoy Elliott Carter either, just a good pair of working ears, and a dash of curiosity wouldn't hurt either.
What struck me about the letter is as Joe noted, that apparently the musicians want to play Carter. But then she mentions being "primed by a professional musicologist" and I'm thinking, Forget them for the moment: you just said you have musicians wanting to play for you!--Bruce
You don't need a degree to enjoy Elliott Carter either, just a good pair of working ears, and a dash of curiosity wouldn't hurt either.
I can vouch for the truth of that observation. Funny - I can still remember the atmosphere of the Piano Sonata and the First String Quartet, but I can't recall the exact musical content.
Time to renew my acquaintance...
Elliott Carter - Brass Quintet
Now this is a very powerful and challenging work to perform!
Have you in fact perfromed it? I'd enjoy reading your impressions both of the music and of the rehearsals. I love that piece. It's seems overlooked compared to some of Cater's other chamber music, but it's by no means minor.
You don't need a degree to enjoy Elliott Carter either, just a good pair of working ears, and a dash of curiosity wouldn't hurt either.
Exactly. Often I even find modern music easier to understand because you only have to listen to gestures, not thematic development.
And I find Carter easier to appreciate than Mozart. The latter has written some phenomenal, dazzling works, like the mature piano concertos, the flute concerto in G major or the Paris and Jupiter symphonies, but a lot of his output seems just boring and routine to me. Perhaps I am missing something, and some musicological training might help.
Now Bach, that is an entirely different beast altogether ... After it took me years to fully appreciate his music, I now cannot get enough of it. However, with Bach I always had the feeling that I was missing something, and once I would have discovered that, the music would start to speak to me. With Mozart I just don't have that feeling, and never had; somehow I suspect that there is just not much more substance there than I already hear. Perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps the composer is just overrated -- yes, he is absolutely sublime when he is at his best, but I don't think he very often is. Maybe the famed ease with which he wrote music is also his achilles heel. Too often I just hear the same kind of phrases, variations and modulations over and over again -- frequently he seems to work with the same limited bag of, albeit nice, tricks.
*Ducks for cover*
*wraps self in asbestos blanket to avoid the flames*
Carter has often spoken of the need to make every note "tell,"
Bach is so incredible, just untouchable...every note written has value & purpose and it's uncomparably rich. No one comes close. Mozart? Yea...I credit his formal innovations and even like a few things but he's a very overrated composer.
You do that; with the rest of the sheep. 8)
Did you see James's (budget?) Apex disc of Carter, Joe?
Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.It's a single-disc reissue of Boulez's Erato Carter disc....I have it in a previous issue 5-CD set with Schoenberg, Berio, Grisey, Ferneyhough, et al.
It's a single-disc reissue of Boulez's Erato Carter disc....I have it in a previous issue 5-CD set with Schoenberg, Berio, Grisey, Ferneyhough, et al.
Funnily enough, I *still* don't get Penthode. It and the 4th quartet are about the only Carter works that don't speak to me yet.
It always puzzles me why otherwise intelligent musicians can't hear the incredible depth of expression in all of Mozart's mature works (that would be everything from around K.400 on, and a goodly number of scores from the K. 300's). Seems to me a kind of selective deafness. Perhaps a reaction against the post-Amadeus fetishization of Mozart, as if he were somehow behind the "Mozart effect" nonsense. All I can say is, you guys are missing out on something incredible.
As I said, perhaps I am wrong and I am missing something substantial, but I just don't see it at this point. Right or wrong, there is a remarkable number of people I know who share my opinion: yes, Mozart made some great music, but... Either we are all right, or there is something utterly prohibitive in Mozart's music that just makes it hard for many to hear a consistent greatness, if there is one.
There's obviously something in the modernist aesthetic and Mozart's aesthetic that are antithetical.
a lot of terrific new stuff is being left by the wayside by the "establishment" who continues to cash in on safe & popular Mozart, who wrote some fine stuff but who is way too overhyped to a suffocating effect that it's simply beyond parody & ultimately it stagnates the artform and turns it into a dusty museum.This defies credulity.
This defies credulity.
but he also conducted Mozart works
And in his earlier days he used to play lots of classical, baroque, romantic, jazz etc as a pianist.
There were some technical problems with the electronics involved, and in order to entertain and kill some time while things were fixed, the composer sat on the piano and played some old jazz classics.
But did he play "Your Feet's Too Big"?
Not necessarily, Mark. Carter has often stated that Mozart is his favorite composer, and that the three Da Ponte operas would be his desert island disks. He also once startled a critic by saying he wanted his music to "be like Mozart's." According to David Schiff, what Carter finds compelling in Mozart is his emotional ambiguity --- "happy when sad, major when minor." It was this same quality, that troubled listeners as astute as Beethoven and Wagner. Their troubled response also proved how much better they heard the music, as opposed to those who find it "merely beautiful," at least according to Schiff.
I find it odd when critics and listeners use Mozart a s club with which to beat Carter's aesthetic.
That was Episode 1 of The Death of Mary Queen of Scots . . . .
I think she's dead.
— No, I'm not.
(crash)
Oh, BTW, Karl, Mr. Carter's new piece for percussion sextet, Tintinnabulation, is scheduled for premiere Dec. 2 at the New England Conservatory of Music. I expect you to provide a report. ;)
Aye, there's a composer who atesk his spinach!
atesk?
If anyone is curious, EC's life expectancy is another 2 years
(http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html)
And how do we arrive at that. Cal?
Check THIS (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November08/8559614.htm) out.I'm wondering if these are live recordings. If so, I was in the audience for all of them. ;)
Makes me wonder when they will get around to releasing the second volume of the string quartets ...
Check THIS (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November08/8559614.htm) out.
Makes me wonder when they will get around to releasing the second volume of the string quartets ...
that's lame- one unrecorded piece among the lot, Naxos could have done a disc purely of newer musicYes, that's what makes me think it's probably a live recording. Those were exactly the pieces played when Carter came to Toronto a couple of years ago.
that's lame- one unrecorded piece among the lot, Naxos could have done a disc purely of newer music
Maybe it couldn't have. With the newer pieces, there's the question of rights and performers' privilege. First recordings are hard to do. What bugs me is that the CD seems to be so short. The four pieces together are only about thirty minutes long.
Oof.
. . . several other short works as padding.
Yet another recording of works by performers other than the dedicatees. Anyone know where I could find "Gra" and "Scrivo in vento" performed by the musicians Carter had in mind?If the disc has the performances I think they are, Scrivo in vento is performed by the dedicatee, Robert Aikten (director of New Music Concerts).
Gra has been recorded five times, but not once, to my knowledge, by Roland Dury, the clarinettist who first performed it. You couldn't do better than Charles Neidich on the Bridge label.
Stoltzman is not the artist on any of my recordings of Gra. Mark, I loved your performance of Esprit Rude/esprit doux. Could you put up Gra as an mp3, too?
Well, in order to get to that page now, I'd have to update my operating system, and if I updated the operating system I'd have to upgrade to the new version of Finale, and I'm not ready to do that yet. However, I am reminded that I still owe you an improved version of the Prausnitz Double Concerto, and I could add Gra to the playlist.
With not a little trepidation, 0:) I have decided to try Carter's Symphonia "Sum fluxae pretium spei" on my Latin II students. :o
They will translate the Latin poem and then we will see if they agree with/tolerate/like Carter's musical interpretation.
...the most overtly bubble-icious.
One word of advice: Have them take the movments one at a time. Each may be performed alone, as well as forming part of the whole, and there's no reason to hit them with it all at once. I'd recommend starting with the last movement, the Allegro scorrevole, which is the most overtly bubble-icious.I'd agree: it's the most bubble-icious of the three movements and I'd also guess the most easily understood.
The central section of Symphonia by far my favorite.I think it's my favourite too. It's one of the most overtly tragic pieces in Carter's oeuvre, and I think it's incredibly powerful.
Taken out of context who would ever marry this up to a description of Carter's music?! Great stuff.
Guido, "Bubblicious" is a brand of chewing gum in the US. Flavors include Blue Blowout, Strawberry Splash, Watermelon Wave, and Gonzo Grape.I think the finale of Symphonia is more Cherry Calvino. ;)
found this, upcoming complete survey of the his solo piano stuff...>> Oppens plays Carter (http://cedillerecords.org/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=356_368&products_id=1053)
Wow, does that look great. Nice photo of Oppens on the cover, too. --Bruce
Ursula has recorded a CD in honor of Carter turning 100 . . . and the cover has a younger photo of her? ::) ;D 8)
Maybe there's wiggle-room in the phrase "a serial approach" . . . .
Good to have some comfirmation. I was looking for inaccuracies in Britannica's articles on music, and this one leapt out at me.
Good to have some comfirmation. I was looking for inaccuracies in Britannica's articles on music, and this one leapt out at me.
Maybe there's wiggle-room in the phrase "a serial approach" . . . .
For reference, would you say Carter's article on Wikipedia is more or less reliable?
In discussing Stockhausen, Al Moritz has defined total serialism as a sort of democratic process, an attempt to keep any one key, rhythm, speed, chord, pitch or dynamic from taking precedence over any of the others. This certainly expands the wiggle room of the serial approach, but even by that broad definition, I doubt that Carter qualifies as a serialist.
I would modify this to add that serialism is a systematic way of achieving democracy. Schoenberg's initial flirtations with atonality shouldn't qualify as serialism.
I would say the parts I wrote are reliable. ;)
A centernary article from, of all places, Women's Wear Daily. Notice the kind of music Mr. Carter writes is not discussed. And the title of the opera is wrong.
Is hard-copy today's issue, Joe?
Nice to see the Carter thread going 40 pages long!
So, what are people doing on Carter's 100th birthday? December 11th, if I remembered correctly. I am having a listening party at home, with a few invited friends. I will be working on the program this weekend. I will bake a cake as well. For the week I will listen to all the Carter recordings I have. I have to look and dig out a few that are in some collections so I don't miss any.
What fun! I think inviting friends to listen at home is a fine idea (frankly, any time), and this is a momentous occasion. Post your playlist when you decide what to listen to!
I will be at Carnegie Hall, where James Levine and the Boston Symphony Orchestra are playing Carter's new piece, Interventions, for piano and orchestra, with Daniel Barenboim as soloist. (It premieres in Boston this weekend, I believe.) Carter will most surely be there, and...they better have a nice cake for the guy!
PS, complete program is here (http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10876.html?selecteddate=12112008).
--Bruce
I will post our program next week!
A Carter new piece AND Le Sacre on the same program? Now, that's one program I would not miss if I were anywhere near the US!
I will post our program next week!
I'm not missing it, either. I'll be attending the Carnegie Hall concert with Bruce. It would appear that my hometown, Phialdelphia, is the only major U.S. city that is ignoring the occasion.
I've been in touch with Bruce about this privately, but now I'll go pubic with it: Anybody who doesn't already have one should get "Elliott Carter: A Centennial Portrait in Letter and Documents" by Anne Shreffler and Felix Meyer. Very beautiful, large-format book with lots of pictures, manuscript facsimiles (Carter's handwriting is as clear as type) and new information. Available at Amazon.
Obviously a best-seller.
Now, that booklet with photos make this even better! I do have most of the works on this, except the double concerto. But this compilation would make a pretty (slightly long) good program!
I have all the Nonesuch recordings. It doesn't make sense for me to buy a four-CD set just for the booklet.
Elliott Carter: Poems of Louis Zukofsky for soprano and clarinet (world premiere)[/i]
I'm looking forward to the Three Inventions and the Symphonia here in Helsinki next week. It's nice that Carter is finally getting some performances here.
I do worry about his recent output though. The pace at which he's working, and the fact that he has now gone almost deaf, make me concerned that he is just producing generic pieces in an established style without really developing as a composer. Granted, I haven't heard anything post-2002 yet, but I've heard others make this very complaint about e.g. the Horn Concerto.
I think you mean Three Illusions. I'm not aware of any piece called Three Inventions.
Oops! :-[ Interesting: I read "inventions" and thought "illusions," then typed "inventions." Maybe I need a vacation...
If you need my approval, Bruce, I'll sign right off.
I envy you guys in NYC and Boston!
This would appear to be the sole Carter centenary event here in Toronto: http://www.newmusicconcerts.com/New_Music_Concerts/Concerts_Events/Entries/2008/12/15_Celebrating_Elliott_Carter.html
Thought I had Night Fantasy on one of the Carter CDs I have. But as I prepare my program, I can not find it. Does this mean I never had it? Or did someone (once again) borrowed it and not returned?
I was going to schedule it was the closing piece. Instead, it will be the Cello Sonata.
* PS, just found out that on Friday, Dec. 12 on The Today Show (for non-U.S. readers, a popular morning television show), Willard Scott will mention Carter's 100th birthday. Every week Scott mentions 7 or 8 people around the country who are 100 years old or more, but I don't recall ever hearing him cite anyone of Carter's stature.
On his blog called listen (here (http://listen101.blogspot.com/)), composer Steve Hicken has been making Carter posts in the last few days, commenting on the Carter works that he likes the best. It's quite a good series.
--Bruce
it is good, but it reads more like program notes than Steve's own impressions of the music. I'd like to hear what he has to say.
Many readers of this blog know how important Elliott Carter’s music has been to me, and as we approach the composer’s 100th next week, I began thinking about which of his pieces have meant the most to me, and why. Naturally, that thinking has led to a list. So, beginning today and running through the 11th, the composer’s birthday, I’ll post an annotated list of the ten Carter pieces that have meant the most to me over the years. Some of them because of what I’ve learned from them, others because I heard them at the right time, and all of them because I just like them as music.
Many readers of this blog know how important Elliott Carter’s music has been to me, and as we approach the composer’s 100th next week, I began thinking about which of his pieces have meant the most to me, and why. Naturally, that thinking has led to a list. So, beginning today and running through the 11th, the composer’s birthday, I’ll post an annotated list of the ten Carter pieces that have meant the most to me over the years. Some of them because of what I’ve learned from them, others because I heard them at the right time, and all of them because I just like them as music.
Thanks for all of the hits on my blog. It's good to find this place.
More info. The Boosey site seems to have it wrong. It's not at Avery Fisher Hall. It's at the Lincoln Center/Stanley H. Kaplan Penthouse, which sounds a lot sexier than it probably is. Here is the complete program:
Elliott Carter, composer, speaker; NY Phil Musicians
2.00pm, Saturday 13 December 2008
Film: An interview with Elliott Carter hosted by Steven Stucky
Elliott Carter: Clarinet Quintet
Elliott Carter: Figment III, for solo double bass
Elliott Carter: Poems of Louis Zukofsky for soprano and clarinet (world premiere)
If anyone in or near NY hasn't heard the Clarinet Quintet yet, I warmly recommend it.
We had a wonderful Carter Birthday party last night!
We started with Esprit Deux (sorry if any of the spelling is not correct!), then went on to:
String Quartet #2
Night Fantasy
String Quartet #3
Clarinet Concerto
Symphonia
Cello Sonata
90+
I would have loved to play A Mirror on Which to Dwell, but we did not fit that one in.
Of course, we listened to some other music as well, including final scene of Salome, Crumb Cello Sonata, etc. The party ended about an hour past midnight (we have to because we started it a day early. It needs to end ON his birthday at least!) I was still so excited that I could not sleep. So I stayed up reading the Nadia Boulanger (Carter's teacher) biography.
All in all, a very enjoyable evening. The group decided to have gathering every 2 to 3 weeks, alternating between Music Nights (non-vocal) and Night at the Opera. (The Night at the Opera should make Effeviking <or was it Brunhilde?> very happy!)
PS: The banana nut birthday cake was delicious as well!
Paul, you get together sounded wonderful, but I'm confused. Just what is this Cello Sonata by Crumb of which you speak? I didn't know he ever wrote anything called a "sonata."
After the Ancient Voice of Children and Microkosmos, it is probably one of Crumb's most famous and most frequently performed and recorded pieces.
I'm feeling really dull here. Are we talking about Voice of the Whale?
Sounds like fun. I'm glad you were able to work in two clarinet works. :)
Actually, three. Forgot to mention a Karl Henning piece featuring the clarinet was also in the mix!
I could use some strange dissonant noises this afternoon, actually . . . .
I could use some strange dissonant noises this afternoon, actually . . . .
On the radio this morning they said that it was Carter's 100th birthday. They played his Elegy
Well Joe, your review (on amazon) has convinced me to order the Pacifica Quartet's recording of SQs 1 and 5. :)
Carter featured on NPR this evening:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98081089&ps=bb1
here is the rose interview
A conversation with Elliott Carter, Daniel Barenboim and James Levine (31'45)
>> http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9774
(In contrast, several people near me were dozing, including one audibly snoring.)
How could anyone doze during Beethoven, Carter or Stravinsky?
Beethoven is certainly cozy-making.
yea i have to agree after watching him on charlie rose, he seems very lively for guy who's 100.
oh i wouldn't know this, im not an obsessive Carter-buff like you.
Odd that people think of Beethoven's music as relaxing. As Paul Griffith's has pointed out, when it was new, his orchetral music was --- outside of thunder and ordnance --- the loudest sound a person could hear hear.
My not-so-secret confession: it took me years to warm up to Carter's music. Despite being a big fan of other living composers, and of contemporary music general, I just never had that "it" moment when I "wanted to hear a given piece again" (which IMHO is an important thing to pay attention to). I took a short piece, Espirit Rude/Esprit Doux (for flute and clarinet), and listened to it over and over--not hard to do since it's only four minutes long. But that didn't seem to work.
But eventually the moment came when I heard a piece that did it for me, the Variations for Orchestra (Levine's recording with the CSO), and now I'm exploring lots of his other stuff.
Not if the music sucks ...it's necessary to distinguish.
It was a pleasure to meet Bruce and Joe for the first time. I had hoped to meet them before the concert, but traffic into the Lincoln Tunnel was inching along bumper to bumper all the way back to the New Jersey Turnpike, and I was just glad to get to Lincoln Center by 2:00. There were 2 grand old men there at the concert: Carter, of course, but also Stanley Drucker, 1st clarinet of the New York Philharmonic since about the same time Carter started writing metric modulations. Both of them are in excellent shape and still going strong.
Carter walks slowly, stooped over with a cane, but his mind is as sharp as a tack. He was interviewed twice, once live and once on film. He talked about his views on modern poetry and the musical setting thereof, and about writing for voice. He said he was tempted to write an opera on Much Ado About Nothing, but then he figured Berlioz had already done it.
For the Zukofsky songs, I found myself following the clarinet line, listening to how Drucker handles the various notes in different registers, and how he reacts to the quick changes in mood. The music is hard, even for him, though he only got the part 2 weeks ago. I didn't even try to absorb the vocal line. I found the Clarinet Quartet totally engrossing, from the opening "Beethoven's 5th" figure to the abrupt pauses at the close (topped off with a wistful clarinet doo-dad). The drama inherent in Carter's music comes out stronger in live performance than on records. A lot of the rapid interplay between instruments went by so fast, I wanted at many points to stop and do an instant replay in slow motion, as they do in Football games on TV. As it was, they had enough time when it was finished, that they could have played it again and still been out of the hall by 4:00. I really wanted to hear the piece a second time, so I could catch more details.
"He didn't mention me in his book about American music, which hurt a little," says Carter. "Later he came round to my music, but only after Leonard Bernstein recorded it."
. . . the character of the new music is certainly different from the work of the 60s and 70s, and it might not be to the taste of some hard core Carterians.
Will Anthony Tommassini ever drop ... "formidably complex music"... in connection with Carter's music ?
What does that phrase ultimately mean ?
ELLIOTT CARTER AT 100 You could say that Elliott Carter has worked his whole life within the box of the musical and academic establishment. Still, his ingenious, formidably complex music has always presented outside-the-box challenges, with comparable rewards to listeners willing to follow him on his visionary journey. On Dec. 11, his 100th birthday, Mr. Carter was celebrated at Carnegie Hall with a performance of his new work for piano and orchestra, “Interventions,” with James Levine conducting the Boston Symphony and Daniel Barenboim as soloist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/arts/music/21tomm.html?ref=music
Will Anthony Tommassini ever drop ... "formidably complex music"... in connection with Carter's music ?
What does that phrase ultimately mean ?
well, i just finished listening to that and I have to say none of it was particularly good....sounds as if he's having a bit of an identity crisis...i.e. sound fields, wind rose (yawn)....or he's just sort-of recycling but more sparse...
Wind Rose (2008), a BBC commission for 24 wind instruments. After playing it once, Knussen dispatched it a second time, arguing that we might never see so many clarinets - eight - on stage again, though he might have said the same for the seven flutes.... So often underpinning all is the low growl of that hulking St Bernard of the orchestra, the contrabass clarinet.
Cool beans.You might wish to listen to Sound Fields near the start of the same broadcast then; it is almost a companion piece to this one, but even more minimal in texture and for string orchestra. (Sound Fields was written first, and Oliver Knussen requested a similar work for winds, hence Wind Rose.)
Boy, this does not sound like your usual Carter piece. (Wind Rose) If someone had asked me to guess the composer, I don't know who I would have said, but it wouldn't be Carter. I admit, I kept waiting for the moment when it would get more active and do the usual Carter stuff with multiple tempos and the like. Next time I'll be able to listen to it just for what it is.
One thing this piece is is a study in sonorities and chord voicings. Many of the harmonies are spread out over a wide range, some of them are densely clustered together. The wind sonorities give them a metallic sheen, like one of those Frank Gehry buildings.
Some of Carter's chamber works have moments like this, where activity falls away leaving shifting sustained sonorities. This is the only piece I've heard where this goes on for the whole piece.
I think there is a precedent for Wind Rose in Carter's output, and that's the Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for Woodwind Quartet (1950), especially Etude VII, which is a study on one note, with an emphasis on "color and dynamic shapes," in Schiff's words.Very good point. I'd forgotten about that work as I've not listened to it for a long time. I guess I'll have to give it a whirl again.
What's more shocking is that Knussen apparently commissioned and encouraged Carter to write something like this??? again, i dont like any of it..I recently heard Interventions for piano & orchestra and that was better then any of these works, unmistakably Carter....still, I look forward to hearing the Clarinet Quintet & Flute Concerto ...I'm guessing Knussen liked Sound Fields. However, I'm certainly wanting to hear Interventions and the other two works; even if I don't think Carter's work is at the same consistently high standard that it was at his peak, much of what he writes I still find illuminating.
even if I don't think Carter's work is at the same consistently high standard that it was at his peak, much of what he writes I still find illuminating.
again, i dont like any of it...
Mad-Regales I need to hear again, and preferably in better sound than webcast quality. I know I didn't get all I could from it on one listen.
I can remember getting into all kinds of trouble on an about 10 years ago when I suggested on another board that his Symphonia was all surface glitter with no depth. After listening to it just now, I still hear it that way. To me Carter has written so much music that he can basically do it in his sleep and no matter what the quality it will get played by major orchestras.
I think Copland got it right. He reached a point where he decided that he had nothing new to say and no new way to say what had been said before so he just stopped composing.
. . . I can't think of the "Adagio tenebroso" as superficial, and I think it says a lot that the "Allegro scorrevole" is pretty: that's an achievement, especially for a modernist whose music has been called thorny (even recently on the BBC), astringent and cerebral.
I haven't yet sought out Sessions's music, but it's no good dismissing Carter for failing to be like Sessions, any more than for failing to be like Ligeti's.
The thing about Copland was that he had Alzheimer's. In his later years he had trouble remembering where he lived, never mind how to put a piece of music together. He himself described his decision to stop composing as "it was as if a faucet had turned off". I see no reason not to applaud Carter for having his marbles intact even into his second century and to continue using his faculties to keep turning out new works. I'm sure that composing every day is what has allowed him to live as long as he has. And if a few of these works are up to the standards of his greatest works, then the effort is fully worthwhile for all of us.
The phrase means that Carter's music is formidable in its complexity.
I'm guessing that the phrase irks you because you would reserve it for only three pieces by a certain composer.
Oh, the book of letters and documents is back at Amazon, (http://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Carter-Centennial-Portrait-Documents/dp/1843834049/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230322757&sr=1-2) and it's pretty darn cheap. Anyone who cares at all about Carter should have this book. It's packed with photos and information.
My adoration of certain of Debussy's works has nothing to do with whether I or others perceive it as 'complex'. As a matter of fact those favorite works of mine are not really complex.
Eric, we've got to say this, even though it will crush you.
This thread isn't yet another thread about you. It's about Elliott Carter's music.
Are you kidding me ? My adoration of certain of Debussy's works has nothing to do with whether I or others perceive it as 'complex'. As a matter of fact those favorite works of mine are not really complex.
I apologise unreservedly. :-[
I have to admit: I wish I had loaded some Carter onto my Sansa Fuze!
Next time!
On this entry of the Alex Ross' blog it says that the library of congress has got pages of Carter's first string quartet and the cello sonata online. I can't seem to find the place on the site he links to, nor on the library of congress site itself. Hmm. http://www.therestisnoise.com/2008/12/dancing-on-the.html
Can anyone else work it out?
Interview with Carter in German published in Das Magazin. The journalist who interviewed him was seen spending a lot of time with Carter after the Saturday concert on Dec. 13. I was photographing Carter and the journalist happened to be in the picture. He later spoke to me and gave me the link to the article:
http://dasmagazin.ch/index.php/und-was-jetzt/
(What he'd probably really like is the picture I took of him with Carter. I ought to send it to him).
Good news for Carter fans: the Pacifica recording of the remaining quartets (2, 3 and 4) is to be issued in February.
Good news for Carter fans: the Pacifica recording of the remaining quartets (2, 3 and 4) is to be issued in February.
Just purchased a disc which contains Carter's cello sonata (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/90/902947.jpg), only to realize I already had it (Rohan de Saram). Well, it becomes mandatory to compare the two. No need to add I hadn't listened to it in a while ::)
Cheers! I had forgotten about that Billy the Kid arrangement actually. Does either the Gershwin or Copland work well?
I have the score to Short Story (the Gershwin) somewhere. Haven't seen it for years, but IIRC it's a real git, technically. Though that might only be the impression it made on a teenager who didn't know better...
I'll try to find it for you.
(http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/8.559363.gif)
So listened through the 3rd quartet last night with the score in hand, would say that this recording lacks the overall dramatic conception of the Julliard quartet, but brings out the details of the piece better. There is much more of an even balance between the duos and the texture therefore seems thicker. The Pizzicato passages are really well done
I agree with this, but it must be noted that the Pacifica's sound is glorious. I never thought I'd be able to describe any of the middle Carter middle quartets as "gorgeous," but there it is. Even the Third, the densest and most confrontational of the lot, seems tamed, and the Fourth, the often overlooked poor stepsister of the cycle, is lovely here. This is a beautiful recording, and the beauty more than compensates for any loss of drama. These performances prove that Carter's quartets, like Beethoven's, are deep and mulifacted enough to sustain a variety of approaches, much as Boulez' second recording of Le Marteau revesled the beauty inherent in that score. They vindicate the Carter's faith in his life's work.
Atonality: it isn't just for for angst anymore.
Bravo.
I guess I am weird because that poor stepsister is my favorite.
Karl, it just seems like I get no responses in this thread.
I haven't snapped up the second Pacifica Quartet disc yet, but 'tis only a matter of time.
Really enjoying the Mosaic/Dialogues/&c. disc (don't take this amiss, I pray, but Mosaic was my 'drifting-off' music last night). Haven't watched the DVD yet, will probably wait to do that together with my mom-in-law.
Yes, I always found Carter's music is a good way to bond with relatives ...
Keep in mind, that Maria genuinely enjoyed the Horn Concerto, which is a great gain over her dislike of the Symphonia some years before . . . I must be musically charitable with my near & dear ones.
I remember Maria being surprised that I flew all the way to Boston to hear these 13 minutes of music. Of course, there were the added bonuses of the Mahler first and the pleasant company. The BSO plans to present the Flute Concerto in 2010. I'd come up for that, too, but I doubt I'll be able to afford it then.
Quote from: BrettI guess I am weird because that poor stepsister is my favorite.
I'd say the Second is mine. The Fourth is great, too, I think, but for some reason it gets overlooked, at least in terms of critical opinion. It's not the breaktrough that either the First or Second is, it's not as witty and approachable as the Fifth, and it's not as extreme and extroverted as the Third (which, in David Schiff's phrase, has become something of a crowd pleaser). It also seems to be regarded as the most difficult, even though it has the most sustained, closely argued, single-mood movements of any of the quartets besides the First, a beautiful adagio, and an unforgettable ending.
I agree with this, but it must be noted that the Pacifica's sound is glorious [. . .] This is a beautiful recording, and the beauty more than compensates for any loss of drama. These performances prove that Carter's quartets, like Beethoven's, are deep and mulifaceted enough to sustain a variety of approaches . . . .
One reason I am keen to fetch in Pacifica disc 2 is, I haven't yet heard nos. 3 or 4.
I am eager to hear what you think of them, especially the Third.
And, well, Shostakovich, yes, and Bartok, certainly. And I guess Haydn and Mozart and Brahms, too. The point I was making was about Carter, viz., that his music is not the dry, cynical, sterile, theoretcial exercise that [upcoming weasel-word alert] some critics (including those on this board) would have it. Like the SQ's of other great composers, including all those named, they work on a human level. Performances like the Pacifica's remind us of that humanity.
Next step - Third string quartet. I got the Pacifica Quartet recording so will listen to that soon. I did notice that the Pacifica take 28 minutes in the fourth quartet, and the Arditti recording I have of the same was something like 20 minutes as far as I can remember... a huge disparity in timings... A I remembering correctly?
is, I haven't yet heard nos. 3 or 4. (Don't be hatin' on me . . . .)
You haven't heard 3 or 4? :o :o :o
No. 4
Juilliard: 29:00
Arditti: 20:47
Pacifica: 24:34
Composers: 24:36
Widest range of variation is the Fourth, from 20 for the Arditti to 29 minutes for the the Juilliard, and the Composers and Pacifica together in the middle with only a two-second difference. (Interesting that those two are my favorite recordings of the piece. The Composers version, which is out of print, is great.) Maybe there was some difference of opinion about how fast to take the Presto and how slowly to take the Lento. Pacifica also has the longest times for the Second and Third, which I attribute to their luxuriant approach. It certainly can't be said they haven't mastered the fast sections.
Is this a typo? By my reckoning the Pacifica take 28:44, movements taking 7:20, 6:31, 6:49, 7:04 respectively.
(I wish I'd heard some Carter in 8th grade!)
Not if it had been the Brass Qnt. as it was with me. You could have picked something better, Prof. Hough! He even played it for us (he was in the Annapolis Brass Qnt.), and the sight of these five red puffed faces squelching out the anguished tones of one of Carter's most uncompromising works certainly did not help the giggle factor at the time. Perhaps the Cello Sonata would have been better. I like Carter just fine now, but the Brass Qnt. is still one of his toughest pieces. Anyone concur?
brass makes me think of dusk in a great city.
Cato, I was happy to read your post. I have nothing to add, but I did enjoy the kids' reactions. We may have a few new Carterphiles on our hands.
The Ode to Joy showed up as a hymn at Mass with new, awful lyrics. No wonder I fled to atheism.
Carter and Ives I had to discover on my own.
I have heard several versions of Beethoven's theme with fairly awful lyrics attempting to imitate a decent hymn! 0:)
Come, sing a song of joy for peace shall come, my bro-o-ther.
Come, sing a song of joy for men shall love each o-o-ther.
It was a form of child abuse.
Thread duty:
I wish I had had a teacher who would have played us Carter in eighth grade, too.
One of the dimmer bulbs in the lamp, however, raised his hand and said: "I kept thinking (during the 3rd movement) of that scene from Willy Wonka where they're inside of a bubble: is that it maybe?" :o :o :o
So there you have it! The Collective (Un)(Sub)Consciousness has linked Elliot Carter to Willy Wonka! 0:)
To quote W.C. Fields:
"It baffles science!"
I'm confusing photos of Gene Wilder and Carter all the time.
Really? I always confused Carter with Burgess Meredith.
You're right; I was fibbing with the Gene Wilder tie-in.
The idea that tonal music is somehow more "natural" than atonal music is a learned response.
Joe,
But does this mean that it's just a matter of time before atonal music is as widely embraced as tonal ?
If all teachers were like Cato, probably.
If all teachers were like Cato, probably.
I have always wondered what would happen, if one took a child from birth on up and isolated them from all music except Schoenberg and friends after 1920: no tonal music whatsoever, only dodecaphony.
Would the child's brain, upon being exposed to tonal music at a later age (12? 16?), wrinkle his nose and shake his head at the odd sounds?
Would the child's brain, upon being exposed to tonal music at a later age (12? 16?), wrinkle his nose and shake his head at the odd sounds?
No, are you serious ? The notion that someone would wince at all upon hearing tonal music ?
Undoubtedly they'd embrace it with unalloyed wonder and joy...
Joe, are you thinking of coming to Boston for any of the Carter events at Symphony?
Mosaic Saturday 3 Oct 09
Dialogues Thursday-Saturday 28-30 Jan 10
Flute Concerto (American premiere, BSO co-commission) Thursday-Friday 4-5 Feb 10; Tuesday 9 Feb 10
Rest easy, Eric; Cato was being a little wry.
To the point: There is no reason why all ages should not embrace atonality with unalloyed wonder and joy. Many of us here, have.
And from my viewpoint, the "unthinkability" of the experiment is not any matter of having children exposed to atonality; but that perforce the world is full of tonal music. The "unthinkable" element is in the caging which would be necessary to "shield" the developing person from non-atonal musics, which would also interfere with the child's normal social development.
But I find it very odd that WQXR, the classical station of New York, did not play a single major work of Carter on his 100th birthday.
But I find it very odd that WQXR, the classical station of New York, did not play a single major work of Carter on his 100th birthday.
To address the serious posters, Karl and Cato, I think the whole thing about raising children in a multi-music environment may be overstated. This is just a thought experiment, but if kids were exposed to tonal and atonal music, I think the majority would gravitate to tonal, but the majority of those would gravitate toward the sort of pop pablum we are force fed on commercial radio. They wouldn't love Haydn and Mozart any more than they would love Schoenberg or Boulez. (Eric wouldn't be pleased with the results of the experiment, either.) In music education, the distinction between tonal and atonal is something of a red herring.
The question is, can kids be helped to appreciate any art music if they are introduced to it early enough? I think they can, but the change would only be within a few percentage points. Instead of eight percent classical sales in this country, we might bump up to twelve percent. It would be a wonderful development, but certainly not enough to bump top 40.
When I was a kid, I had not yet made the transition to atonality. I knew no Schownberg or Webern at all, and was just beginning to explore Carter. But I took a lot of crap for liking Beethoven. Beethoven, mind you. The fact that he wrote tonal music made no difference to anyone. The fight wasn['t between tonalists and atonalists. The fight was between good old masculine rock (as embodied by the likes of David Bowie and Queen*) and those classical faggotized tunes. For teenagers, everything comes down to sexual politics.
Schoenberg and Carter will probably always be a minority taste, but that fact alone in no way negates their acheivement. Beethoven will also be always a minority taste---just a slightly bigger minority. It's hard to argure about natural vs. unnatural approaches to music when the margins are so small.
The question is, can kids be helped to appreciate any art music if they are introduced to it early enough?
People are either born with the the aesthetic sensitivity for Western art music or they are not... And it has nothing to do with elitism.
We are still waiting for researchers to isolate the Western-art-music-sensitivity gene ...
Joe, my point was that no one (i.e. teacher, critic, student, composer, guy on the street) can really do anything that would make someone go home in delight and cuddle up with a piece of music.
Eric, unless you have something to say directly about Carter's music, I ask that if you wish to discuss the aesthetics of modern music you do so in a thread of your own creation, for example, Eric's Thread on P & M. IIRC, that is one of the topics there, is it not?
Thanks,
Gurn 8)
Seriously, Eric, what Carter pieces do you like?
Rhapsodic Musings (1999) for solo violin.
Rhapsodic Musings is a present to Robert Mann on his eightieth birthday. It is a small tribute to his extraordinary, devoted advocacy of contemporary music. As is well-known, with other members of the Juilliard Quartet he gave such pioneering and commanding performances of quartets by Bartók, Schoenberg, and many others, including my own, that many of these works became part of the performers' repertory. His teaching and other activities brought these scores to the attention of students. Using his initials R.M. in the title of this short violin solo and in its main motive — re, mi (D, E) — this piece tries to suggest some of his remarkable human and artistic qualities. It was composed in June, 2000, in Southbury, Conecticut.
Joe, have you seen the DVD of the Naxos 100th anniversary release? What did you think?
Noticing a peculiarity here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,85.msg314151.html#msg314151), I noted it there (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/05/mere-curiosity-to-be-sure.html).
I'd say the Second is mine. The Fourth is great, too, I think, but for some reason it gets overlooked, at least in terms of critical opinion. It's not the breaktrough that either the First or Second is, it's not as witty and approachable as the Fifth, and it's not as extreme and extroverted as the Third (which, in David Schiff's phrase, has become something of a crowd pleaser). It also seems to be regarded as the most difficult, even though it has the most sustained, closely argued, single-mood movements of any of the quartets besides the First, a beautiful adagio, and an unforgettable ending.
maybe God is just keeping Elliott Carter alive so long to make up for his unforgivable atonal sins :o
maybe God is just keeping Elliott Carter alive so long to make up for his unforgivable atonal sins :o
Well, if the sins are unforgivable, there can be no making up for them, can there?
Right, the only questions are how soon the punishment starts, and with what severity . . . .
Christianity is such a beautiful religion ... 0:)
It is; the religion under advisement is The One True Tonality, though 0:)
Atonal and atonement are such close words.
Did anyone else happen to see the Berlin Philharmonic with Emmanuel Pahud perform Carter's Flute Concerto Saturday night?! Barenboim conducted. (It was the last concert of the season being broadcasted by the "Digital Concert Hall", and will probably show up any day now in their archive).
I quite liked it - typical Carter, with some surprisingly lyrical passages thrown in.
Amazing that Carter is continuing to work--at 100 years old--and turning out excellent work, to boot.
That Horn Concerto is a fun piece; and it was a musical turning-point for my wife viz. Carter, for whose music she had not at all cared before.
Has she come to like anything else since?
Specifically of Carter's, you must mean?
Labyrinth in Time
Not the greatest documentary I've seen ...
Well, be fair: not every documentary can be This Is Spinal Tap
Just got word via Tim Rutherford-Johnson's great blog, The Rambler, that more of Elliott Carter's compositional sketches are now online at the Library of Congress, here (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/search?query=%2BmemberOf:carter&view=thumbnail&sort=titlesort&label=Elliott%20Carter%20Manuscripts). A few works are incomplete, but they expect them to be finished soon.
--Bruce
Interesting! Glad to hear of another song cycle, since his are generally very strong.
FYI, slightly off-topic, but on the apartment building across the street from mine, there is a small plaque with Marianne Moore's dates--apparently she lived there for some time.
--Bruce
TTT
. . . but still, I could have lived without the intrusive camera work in Labyrinth. How much do we need to see the speeded up traffic on the Hudson, or the East River, or whatever it was. And more context — ie., a narration — would have helped.
No, Tic Tac Toe.
Nice two-part interview with Mr. Carter here (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/episode/0,,4277497,00.html) and here (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/episode/0,,4277498,00.html).
Which means what, exactly, in this context?Yo mama.