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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Que on May 18, 2007, 11:07:32 PM

Title: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on May 18, 2007, 11:07:32 PM
Talking with Premont (thanks for the list  :)) on the Brandenburg Concertos the other day, a thread on Bach's music for chamber orchestra seemed a good idea!

I need some new Brandenburgs - what are your favourites?
I have currently Harnoncourt's second recording:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51669V7FQEL._AA240_.jpg)

Put please post also favourites of the orchestral suites and solo concertos!

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: rubio on May 18, 2007, 11:52:52 PM
My favourite Brandenburg is by the Linde Consort (Virgin Classics). Sublime! It includes some really delightful flute playing by H-M Linde, and the performance is more chamber-like than say Pinnock. This is one of my favourite classical CD's of my collection. I hope it will be re-issued in the (near) future. It can be tracked down however.

(http://www.virginclassics.com/vclass-data/releases/129_01.gif)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: val on May 19, 2007, 02:40:40 AM
Regarding the Suites, the great version is, in my opinion, the Musica Antiqua Köln with Goebel.

In the Brandenburg Concertos I like Goebel, but also Leonhardt, more detailed, almost in a chamber music perspective.

Regarding the harpsichord Concertos, Leonhardt (with Tachezi in the BWV 1052) and van Asperen with the Melante Ensemble are my favorites.

For the violin Concertos, I prefer the first version of Monica Huggett with Koopman. The second version, with the ensemble Sonnerie has not the same dynamic. In the slow movements of this concertos, Schröder with Hogwood would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bach Man on May 19, 2007, 06:37:37 AM
I like Jordi Savall's take on the Brandenburgs, but I have Rinaldo Allessandrini's in the mail, so we'll see.

For the violin concertos I love the Andrew Manze/Rachel Podger collaboration, it has just the right amount of freewheeling, which fits these fun-filled concertos.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hornteacher on May 19, 2007, 12:00:40 PM
My very favorite renderings.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 19, 2007, 12:26:30 PM
Talking with Premont (thanks for the list  :)) on the Brandenburg Concertos the other day, a thread on Bach's music for chamber orchestra seemed a good idea!

I need some new Brandenburgs - what are your favourites?

[Snip]

Put please post also favourites of the orchestral suites and solo concertos!

Q

I have so many Brandenburgs!  I have a Harnoncourt recording, but  I'm not sure whether it's the first of second recording.  I also have Savall and Le Concert des Nations, Reinhard Goebel and Musica Antiqua Köln, Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert, Christopher Hogwood and the AAM, Tafelmusik (Jeanne Lamon), Il Giardino Armonico, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, Roy Goodman and the Brandenburg Consort, Alessandrini and Concerto Italialiano, and more. The ones that rise to the top are Jordi Savall, AAMB, Alessandrini, and the newest set which is also the most revolutionary sounding: I Barocchisti with Diego Fasolis.  Special mention should also go to Masaaki Suzuki's recording of the Overtures with the Bach Collegium Japan, another faultlessly elegant sacd/hybrid recording from him. (Not Pictured)

All of or any (except Giardino Armonico which I have great problems with) would make a good choice, but I will recommend I Barocchisti because that set is the most fun and is characterized by amazing play and the best, by far sound quality of all of them.  In 10 years, it's still going to sound fresh, and it's also a lot of fun to listen to.  It also includes the Triple concerto BWV 1044.  I enjoy this so much that I've already put in the order for Fasolis recording of the Overtures (orchestral suites)

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/as60gif/CART-47715-SA.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/as60gif/CART-47716SA.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/as60gif/CART-47649-SA.jpg)

The other Bach concerto albums that I have been giving the most play time to are those of the Café Zimmermann and Lars Ulrick Mortensen.  There are 3 volumes available of the "Concerts avec Plusieurs Instruments" by Pablo Valetti and Café Zimmermann and 2 volumes of "Harpsichord Concertos" by Mortensen and the Concerto Copenhagen.  Both sets are excellent.

(http://www.fugalibera.com/data/cds/109/BIG.JPG) (http://www.fugalibera.com/data/cds/144/BIG.JPG) (http://www.fugalibera.com/data/cds/167/BIG.JPG)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/37/502637.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/18/972318.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Norbeone on May 19, 2007, 01:04:56 PM
For the Keyboard Concertos, Gould is oustanding. His D Minor and F Minor concertos are particularly splendid.

I've heard that Perahia's concertos are great, too.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 19, 2007, 01:50:11 PM
For the Keyboard Concertos, Gould is oustanding. His D Minor and F Minor concertos are particularly splendid.

I've heard that Perahia's concertos are great, too.



I have Perahia's Bach concerti and they are indeed fine piano versions of these works. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Don on May 19, 2007, 02:48:40 PM
For the Keyboard Concertos, Gould is oustanding. His D Minor and F Minor concertos are particularly splendid.

I've heard that Perahia's concertos are great, too.



Every recording from Perahia seems to get many raves, sometimes without merit.  But I do agree that his concertos discs are among his best.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bach Man on May 19, 2007, 03:14:52 PM
I love Perahia's rendition of the Bach concertos, actually a lot more than i do Gould's. They are full blooded piano versions, and the pianist use a rich palate of colours. The orchestra is quite lush and very sympathetic to the conductor/pianist. Angela Hewitt should also be recommended. Her strengths are the chamber-like textural clarity and the light ease with which she plays, and the Fazioli grand of course.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: orbital on May 19, 2007, 03:15:06 PM
Roy Goodman and the Brandenburg Consort,

Although my recordings are few here, I enjoy Goodman a lot. Their Orchestral Suites are very good too.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on May 19, 2007, 09:20:31 PM
For the Brandenburgs at least one Italian version seems a good idea - hmmm... Fasolis or Alessandrini? :)

For concertos in general, I'm all with Bunny's recommendations of the "Concerts avec plusieurs intruments" series by Café Zimmermann (on Alpha (http://www.fugalibera.com/discmonth.php?label=alpha)). I hope they'll do some more, three issues is not enough. These include beautiful performances of the reconstructions for oboe (BWV 1053, 1055 and 1060), which is a major attraction for me.

For the harpsichord concertos in particular I still enjoy the complete set with Leonhardt, already recommended by Val.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513M3EQ1TVL._AA240_.jpg)

I also bought the first volume with Mortensen on cpo (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/theme/-/tname/cposhop_home), that Bunny pictured - really excellent, when complete it might even supersede Leonhardt in my mind. Similarity in approach too.

For the violin concertos I have only one favourite - haven't heard any recording that could match it to date! :)
The one and only, and still easily available - grab it!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5003561.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: anasazi on May 19, 2007, 11:12:07 PM
Currently on my shelf, have Raymond Leppard and the ECO doing the Brandenburgs.  It's just OK, I could stand for a little more crisp recording, but still it is a solid recording.  I have Boston Baroque playing the suites.  Could be better.  The mastering seems to accentuate the accompaniment to the detriment of the solos.  For the violin concertos, I highly recommend the Hilary Hahn disc.  I'm stlil searching for the best piano concerto recording.  I own the Gould recordings.  Mostly good, but sometimes eccentric.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 20, 2007, 06:25:04 AM
For the Brandenburgs at least one Italian version seems a good idea - hmmm... Fasolis or Alessandrini? :)

For concertos in general, I'm all with Bunny's recommendations of the "Concerts avec plusieurs intruments" series by Café Zimmermann (on Alpha (http://www.fugalibera.com/discmonth.php?label=alpha)). I hope they'll do some more, three issues is not enough. These include beautiful performances of the reconstructions for oboe (BWV 1053, 1055 and 1060), which is a major attraction for me.


I also bought the first volume with Mortensen on cpo (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/theme/-/tname/cposhop_home), that Bunny pictured - really excellent, when complete it might even supersede Leonhardt in my mind. Similarity in approach too.



For the violin concertos I have only one favourite - haven't heard any recording that could match it to date! :)
The one and only, and still easily available - grab it!

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5003561.jpg)

Q



The Alessandrini Brandenburgs are excellent; they have no negatives.  The set has 2 cds and 1 dvd of "extras" which I've played once and never played again.  The Fassolis Brandenburgs are also excellent, they are every bit as good as the Alessandrini, and more fun!  Their sound quality is SACD/hybrid, and if you have a 5 speaker SACD system then these are the only way to go. The SACD stereo layer is also warmer and more spacious than the stereo layer of the Alessandrini, so if you have a good quality system, then you will certainly prefer the warmer and more dynamic sound quality of the Fassolis.  When evaluating the interpretations, again, reluctantly I have to give the Fasolis recording a slight edge.  Everything that made the Giardino Armonico recording intriguing, the spontaneity, brisk rhythms, emphasis on horns, and irreverent attitude, is there in the Fassolis, but it's done so much better.  In the Fasolis, there is so much pure joy in music making that it blows the competition away.

With respect to the Mortensen: The second set of the concertos is actually  better than the first set!  It sounds better and the play is slightly more fluent, as if the ensemble has finally reached a comfort zone where they can be in the music rather than merely performing it.  It's a very slight difference, but if you hear the two cds together, you cannot miss it.

For the violin concerti, my favorite non hip version has always been the one with Isaac Stern and Itzhak Perlman on Sony.  It's usually a budget choice, but those guys really had chops when they were fiddling and although it's unabashedly romantical play, it's very satisfying Bach.  My other favorite non HIP recording is Akiko Suwanai's recording with the COE.  The Suwanai recording wasn't released, unfortunately, in the USA but it is available from JPC. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61yGhkADVgL._SS500_.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/3203264.jpg)

For other HIP recordings, there is the 1990 recording by Hogwood with Jaap Schroeder, the Pinnock concertos with Simon Standage, and the newer, fresher interpretation, and better sounding release by the Akademie fur Alte Musik Berlin, which is the one I now prefer.   

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X7ZG6VSYL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/large/0001007/0001007551.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/64/681264.jpg)

Please note: Simon Standage has recorded these concerti a number of times, with Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert; with the Collegium Musicum 90 (Chandos); with the Academy for Ancient Music (as director and soloist -- Harmonia Mundi).  I have both the Pinnock and the Harmonia Mundi recordings, both of which are fine, if not in my top tier.  Note: The Harmonia Mundi recording was also released in SACD, but I have the regular stereo recording so cannot comment as to it's sound quality.

Edit: The Harmonia Mundi recording is not with Simon Standage, but with Andrew Manze.  I must have gotten a bit confused bouncing between threads.  Which ever soloist, it still isn't in my top tier of favorites. 

(http://www.entertainmentmonster.com/images/largeproduct/095115059425.jpg)  (http://www.harmoniamundi.com/Publish/album/878/807155_G.jpg)

Edit: I pulled out the Violin concertos recording by Akademie fur alte Musik Berlin last night and was shocked to hear that it wasn't the recording I had been thinking of!  Not that it isn't a very fine album, but it wasn't the one I was thinking of.  For one thing, the AAMB's album had only one violin concerto, the triple concerto and the harpsichord transcription of the violin concerto.  So, this morning I started pulling apart my collection trying to locate the album I had been thinking of, and after long (and enjoyable) searching and listening, I finally realized that the album I had been thinking of was actually Fabio Biondi's recording of Bach Violin Concertos, pictured below.

(http://www.moviemars.com/images/72435453612.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on May 20, 2007, 06:36:34 AM
Great and interesting post, Bunny. 
Thanks for the feedback on the Fasolis/Alessandrini!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: George on May 20, 2007, 06:38:41 AM
In the Brandenburg Concertos I like Goebel...

We agree again, Val!  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 20, 2007, 06:46:02 AM
I wonder sometimes why Standage keeps recording this repetoire.  I do have to say that having the Pinnock Concertos box set (which includes the violin concertos) that it was not really necessary to get the Harmonia Mundi recording.  Standage's take on these works has not really changed that much.  For completion's sake, I have, perhaps, too many recordings of these works, but it's given me the insight to really understand just which recordings I prefer and why.  For someone just starting out with these works, I think the best choices might not be any of the Standage concerti, but rather the Akademie fur alte Musik Berlin which has the benefit of excellent sound quality.  I also have the Kuijken recordng on the Denon label (with a different cover), but don't give it as much play because the sound quality is very dated and the deficiencies are very apparent on my speakers.  The volume has to be bumped up and some distortion sets in.  I wonder if that's because of the mastering or just the result of early digital recording technology; I do think of updating the recording every so often.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 20, 2007, 06:47:42 AM
We agree again, Val!  :)

Have you heard any of the others?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on May 20, 2007, 06:55:47 AM
I also have the Kuijken recordng on the Denon label (with a different cover), but don't give it as much play because the sound quality is very dated and the deficiencies are very apparent on my speakers.  The volume has to be bumped up and some distortion sets in.  I wonder if that's because of the mastering or just the result of early digital recording technology; I do think of updating the recording every so often.

Bunny, maybe Denon has been fiddling with it (if it's the same recording?)
On the DHM issue the recording with Kuijken (from 1981) is clean, without distortions (as far as I can tell), though a bit more "bare" / less opulent than presentday recordings.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: George on May 20, 2007, 07:04:33 AM
Have you heard any of the others?

I have heard the dull I Musici, that's it. I love the Goebel, though and haven't wanted to look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 20, 2007, 07:08:59 AM
I have heard the dull I Musici, that's it. I love the Goebel, though and haven't wanted to look elsewhere.

Lucky you!  I have a very low threshold of boredom. :(

But lucky me!  I've heard more wonderful recordings and performances. :D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: George on May 20, 2007, 07:13:10 AM
Lucky you!  I have a very low threshold of boredom. :(

But lucky me!  I've heard more wonderful recordings and performances. :D

that's the key isn't it? Knowing what you like.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Xenophanes on May 20, 2007, 12:01:21 PM
The nicest Brandenburg Concertos set I have heard is with Karl Ristenpart and the Chamber Orchestra of the Sarre, Nonesuch H-73006, 2 LPs.  It is available in a CD set along with the Suites and other works, but for some reason, the Brandenburgs seem to be in mono.

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Oeuvres-pour-orchestre-Ristenpart/dp/B00004XROP/ref=sr_1_1/104-7564307-3333512?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179691891&sr=1-1

On CD, I still just stick with Pinnock. There is a 2-CD incarnation with the Orchestral Suites (which I haven't heard), but I can certainly recommend the Brandenburgs.

http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Brandenburg-Orchestral/dp/B0000057D8/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7564307-3333512?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179692472&sr=1-1

I don't really have an outstanding set of the Orchestra Suites.  Goodman is well-recorded.

Now, for the violin concertos, there is really only one for me: Francescatti (and Pasquier) with Baumgartner and the Lucerne Festival Strings.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/11/17/70227220eca0edbaff428010._AA240_.L.jpg)

That particular issue doesn't seem to be current but there is another one, but the picture is as pretty:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concertos-violon-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004VEOM/ref=sr_1_2/104-7564307-3333512?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179693091&sr=1-2

I have to go make some salad, so I'll stop here.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 20, 2007, 01:06:51 PM
that's the key isn't it? Knowing what you like.

Well, I know what I like; in fact I like many things, and am always open to new experiences. :D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The Mad Hatter on May 20, 2007, 11:57:36 PM
I fell in love with Britten's recordings of the Brandenburgs. I can't listen to them by anyone else now.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hornteacher on May 21, 2007, 02:11:17 AM
For the solo violin concertos, surprise surprise, my choice is:

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 21, 2007, 07:15:07 AM
I've edited my post wrt to the violin concertos.  Apparently, I must have been suffering a senior moment and possibly I was also fooled by the fact that the album on my ipod wasn't tagged correctly.  I've put in the correct album, and will soon correct the tagging on my ipod.  Sincere apologies for my error.  Btw, I also turned up an old copy of the Harnoncourt violin concertos which I'll be listening to later today. As I haven't even thought of that recording in years, it should make for interesting listening. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 21, 2007, 07:16:20 AM
For the solo violin concertos, surprise surprise, my choice is:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SNGDCA47L._AA240_.jpg)


That's really a very good album.  I certainly enjoy it.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 21, 2007, 08:00:59 AM
I like Jordi Savall's take on the Brandenburgs

I like Savall in the orchestral suites as well. It's a matter of fact, i have yet to encounter a Savall recording that i didn't like. Sometimes i feel like i'm alone in this...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 21, 2007, 12:45:41 PM
For the Orchestral suites I would recommend:

English Concert / Trevor Pinnock (Archiv) -his first recording released with the also recommendable Brandenburgs on a 3CD set.

La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM)

Linde Consort / Hans Martin Linde (EMI)

Musica Antiqua Köln / Reinhard Goebel (Archiv)

Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood (L´Oiseau Lyre)


For the complete Harpsichord concertos:

English Concert / Trevor Pinnock (Archiv)

Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood (with Christophe Rousset)(L´Oiseau Lyre)

Concerto Copenhagen / Lars Ulrik Mortensen (only solo concertos so far) (CPO)


For the Violin concertos (the a-minor and E-major and the double conc. d-minor):

La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM)

Robert King Ensemble / Robert King (Hyperion)

Orchester of the Age of Enlightenment / Elisabeth Wallfish (Virgin)


All above are informed performances. A very recomendable HIP style performance played on modern instruments is the Naxos 8 CD set with all the Bach instrumental music played by Cologne chamber orchester / Helmut Múller-Brühl.  Most of this is so stylish played, that you forget the modern instruments. As a matter of fact many of the performers belong to the HIP-movement (Robert Hill, Michael Behringer, Karl Kaiser et.c.)
Exceptionally good is also the recording of the Violin concertos by Suwanai (Philips) - also modern instruments and HIP-style.

As to the Brandenburgs the choice between Alessandrini and Fasolis is simple for me, -Alessandrini without any trace of doubt.

Que, you may copy and post my Brandenburg list in this thread, if you want.




Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hornteacher on May 21, 2007, 01:41:57 PM
That's really a very good album.  I certainly enjoy it.

My obvious favoritism aside, I agree.  The sound is crystal clear and I like the brisker than usual tempos (tempi?) on the fast movements.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 21, 2007, 05:27:13 PM
Premont,

I was looking at the Wallfisch V/Cs earlier today; the sound clips sounded very good.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: rubio on May 21, 2007, 08:16:15 PM

Que, you may copy and post my Brandenburg list in this thread, if you want.


Yes, please do that.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on May 21, 2007, 09:39:34 PM
Que, you may copy and post my Brandenburg list in this thread, if you want.

Here it is! :)

Premont's list for the Brandenburg concertos - in chronological order:

Konzertgruppe der Schola Cantorum Basiliensis / August Wenzinger / Archiv (LP only 1950-53) Partially played on period instruments but the playing style is not, what we think of as HIP to day, but rather informed compared to the time of recording.

Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester, Pforzheim / Friedrich Tilegant / Eurodisc (LP only rec. ca 1961) "Preauthentic". Tilegants first Brandenburg cycle.

Pro Musica Orchester, München / Kurt Redel / Erato (LP only rec,1962) "Preauthentic", Redels second Brandenburg cycle.

Saarländisches Kammerorkester / Karl Ristenpart / Accord rec.ca 1965 "Preauthentic", Ristenparts second Brandenburg cycle.

Dutch soloists ad hoc / Gustav Leonhardt / Sony rec.1977 HIP. A rather weak trombaist in no 2 (Claude Rippas) but the other soloists are in top (Sigiswald Kuijken, Franz Brüggen, Paul Dombrecht among others).

Linde Consort / Hans Martin Linde / EMI rec.1982 HIP

The English Concert / Trevor Pinnock / Archive rec.1982 HIP

La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken / DHM rec.1994 HIP

Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam / de Vriend / Chall rec.1996 Modern instruments but HIP style

Freiburger Barockorchester / Gottfried von der Goltz / TDK DVD rec.2000 HIP
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 21, 2007, 10:10:23 PM
my Brandenburg list (an imaginary one only at this point) will have to include this recording:

(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1194/610nq9w0bglss400hv1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

rec. 1965-67 (only a bit later than Harnoncourt's first attempt)

full list of soloists here :

Erich Penzel, Gert Seifert (natural horn)
Helmut Hucke (oboe)
Franzjosef Maier (violin, violino piccolo)
Hans-Martin Linde (traverso, recorder)
Guenter Hoeller (recorder)
Edward H. Tarr (clarino trumpet)
Ulrich Koch, Guenter Lemmen (viola)
Gustav Leonhardt (harpsichord)

Tarr probably recorded the first great original-instrument B2.  Leonhardt
was already the inimintable himself then, turning in a graceful yet lithe
solo in B5.

The overall concept of orchestral balance adopted here is similar to Diego Fasolis's
2007 version - B1, B2 and B4 are considered true "concerti grossi" where the
repieno section can be sizeable, but B3, B5, B6 are seen as "concerti di camera,"
played mostly one-to-a-part.  Rather "informed" for the 1960s, I'd say. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 22, 2007, 07:23:07 AM
Bunny, maybe Denon has been fiddling with it (if it's the same recording?)
On the DHM issue the recording with Kuijken (from 1981) is clean, without distortions (as far as I can tell), though a bit more "bare" / less opulent than presentday recordings.

Q

I pulled the recording out, and I still have to say that it's sq is dated.  Recording technology has changed quite a bit since this one was made, not the least of which is the move to HDCD and SACD, both of which have warmer sound that's closer to analog than this has.  Perhaps the DHM sound is different, but I think it's probably the same.  Denon was the ultimate word in recording technology and sound quality back then.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2007, 08:45:32 AM
Was Kuijken's JSB VC recording ever released on the Denon label?  Can anyone post a picture of its cover?  I asked because my memory tells me that DHM recordings were always released in Japan by JVC Victor until they got bought out by Sony with the rest of the BMG group.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 22, 2007, 04:26:35 PM
Was Kuijken's JSB VC recording ever released on the Denon label?  Can anyone post a picture of its cover?  I asked because my memory tells me that DHM recordings were always released in Japan by JVC Victor until they got bought out by Sony with the rest of the BMG group.

I will have to find the recording (again as I seem to have mislaid it).  I have it listed in my computerized catalog as Denon/WEA (Warner, no less) which downloads the album information automatically from the various amazon stores.  Sometimes there are errors in the listings which then end up being errors in the catalog.  Usually the information is accurate, but there have been mistakes on occasion.  If I recall correctly, at one time DHM was also a division of EMI, so perhaps my copy was on EMI rather than Denon. Then again, perhaps Denon and EMI were also once associated.  There's been so much merger, takeover, acquisition, etc. with the big music companies that sometimes it's hard to keep track of everything.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2007, 05:41:15 PM
I will have to find the recording (again as I seem to have mislaid it).  I have it listed in my computerized catalog as Denon/WEA (Warner, no less) which downloads the album information automatically from the various amazon stores.  Sometimes there are errors in the listings which then end up being errors in the catalog.  Usually the information is accurate, but there have been mistakes on occasion.  If I recall correctly, at one time DHM was also a division of EMI, so perhaps my copy was on EMI rather than Denon. Then again, perhaps Denon and EMI were also once associated.  There's been so much merger, takeover, acquisition, etc. with the big music companies that sometimes it's hard to keep track of everything.

EMI is mostly associated with Toshiba in Japan, but Toshiba and Denon (Columbia) have always been two distinct companies.  So was Denon ever associated with EMI?  Unlikely.
It is true, though, that quite a few DHM recordings were for some time published by Toshiba-EMI.  The Schroder/Immerseel Beethoven Vn Sonatas, for example, and I recall Kuijken/LPB recordings of Geminiani Op.3 and Rameau Hippolyte et Alicie Suite in that incarnation also.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 22, 2007, 06:20:12 PM
EMI is mostly associated with Toshiba in Japan, but Toshiba and Denon (Columbia) have always been two distinct companies.  So was Denon ever associated with EMI?  Unlikely.
It is true, though, that quite a few DHM recordings were for some time published by Toshiba-EMI.  The Schroder/Immerseel Beethoven Vn Sonatas, for example, and I recall Kuijken/LPB recordings of Geminiani Op.3 and Rameau Hippolyte et Alicie Suite in that incarnation also.

Well, I'm still looking for the dratted recording.  I had in my hands yesterday and today pfft!  Vanished.  It's probably right under my nose but for some reason I don't see it.  How annoying to know that something is here, but not where I expect to find it (and 2 other recordings I listened to yesterday as well. >:( ).  It will show up and then I'll see what the label is exactly; and  make corrections to my catalog data if necessary.  In any event, I still have the music on my ipod so at least I can listen to it again.  No way to properly assess sound quality on the ipod, though.  I need the speakers for that.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2007, 05:30:43 AM
Well, I'm still looking for the dratted recording.  I had in my hands yesterday and today pfft!  Vanished.  It's probably right under my nose but for some reason I don't see it.  How annoying to know that something is here, but not where I expect to find it (and 2 other recordings I listened to yesterday as well. >:( ).  It will show up and then I'll see what the label is exactly; and  make corrections to my catalog data if necessary.  In any event, I still have the music on my ipod so at least I can listen to it again.  No way to properly assess sound quality on the ipod, though.  I need the speakers for that.

JVC or Toshiba-EMI versions of DHM recordings often sound (perceptibly) finer than their original German releases.  They don't use the same catalogue nos. at all, and may actually contain different transfers of the same material. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 23, 2007, 01:31:13 PM
I still haven't found that recording, and it's not the only one that I've mislaid.  I'll bet I put into the wrong place entirely and it will take me days to unearth it. (sigh).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2007, 07:46:18 PM
I still haven't found that recording, and it's not the only one that I've mislaid.  I'll bet I put into the wrong place entirely and it will take me days to unearth it. (sigh).


Don't worry - I bet the Kuijken disc will be a lot easier to find than, say, RMS Titanic ;)

The Kuijkens did make several nice recordings for Denon in the 1990's, but I do not recall a JSB VC among them.... 

(http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4402/51gxngrmyjlss500mr2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The DHM recording as it is currently released in Japan.   Still has the same cover photo as the German BMG "Classic Edition" which has been floating around for ages.  However (below) this is the first time I saw all Haydn London sym recordings by Kuijken collected in a box set. 

(http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/6453/51v0qatwalss500za6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 05:24:00 AM
Neither of those are the pictures on my cd.  My cd shows a painting of a group of musicians, and I have finally located a picture of the album (at Amazon no less!).  I'm not sure what year I bought it, but it was around the time I bought my first cd player which would be ca. 1986.  And, as ever, you were correct about the label; it was EMI/DHM (Toshiba rather than Denon?).  Unfortunately, I still have not located my copies, which means I've really put them in some obscure place, the curse of a large cd collection. >:(


(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/17/d6/f1d4225b9da0694e867d0110.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on May 24, 2007, 08:46:19 AM
And, as ever, you were correct about the label; it was EMI/DHM (Toshiba rather than Denon?). 


Yes, EMI never teamed up with Denon in Japan (or elsewhere.) 

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 10:52:46 AM
Well, I finally found the cd when I went looking for some Beethoven.  Unfortunately, I'm still looking for the Beethoven which is probably mixed into Bartok or Brahms. ::)

Anyway, that is the set that I have, EMI/DHM -- confirmed. I played it again to judge the sound and it is as I remembered: very clean, cold and slightly bright.  I played it using my tube amplifier to warm it up, but it still reflects the colder aesthetic of the earliest digital days.  My recording actually dates from 1981, so I don't think it could be more "early digital" than that.  The sound also lacks a fullness that more recent recordings (HDCD) have as well.  I'm more used to the SACD cds which have more information and a correspondingly warmer and fuller sound now so I haven't given it as much play.  The performance and interpretations are excellent, though.  I don't know if remastering has been done or if the later editions include more digital information to give it better sound; if so, I might consider upgrading the recording.  I know JVC did wonders with some older recordings, but I believe those were taken from analog tapes, rather than from digital tapes.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: rubio on June 03, 2007, 08:29:24 AM
I love the Concerto for violin and oboe, BWV 1060, and I would like to have some nice recommendations for this work. I think I will order the Suwanai CD, but are there some other ones that are superb as well. I love some beautiful oboe playing, and maybe you have some recommendations for Bach's oboe concertos as well. I haven't heard them so I wonder what you think about these concertos?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on June 03, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
I love the Concerto for violin and oboe, BWV 1060, and I would like to have some nice recommendations for this work. I think I will order the Suwanai CD, but are there some other ones that are superb as well. I love some beautiful oboe playing, and maybe you have some recommendations for Bach's oboe concertos as well. I haven't heard them so I wonder what you think about these concertos?

Visit Cafe Zimmermann (Alpha) - I think they were referred to in this thread somewhere.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on June 07, 2007, 10:27:12 PM
I love the Concerto for violin and oboe, BWV 1060, and I would like to have some nice recommendations for this work.
Visit Cafe Zimmermann (Alpha) - I think they were referred to in this thread somewhere.

The reconstructed oboe concerto BW 1060 is to be found on volume II, and beau-ti-fully done btw. :)

This came in the mail this week. And it sounds glorious.
Kuijken's Bach has always a very subtle, intimate quality about it. Very finely detailed and transparent, a perfect blending of the instrumental colours.

Always a thrilling experience to revisit a familiar work with a new recording.
Many thanks to Premont and others for the recommendation! :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/msiart/large/0000104/0000104020.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on June 08, 2007, 12:30:48 AM
The reconstructed oboe concerto BW 1060 is to be found on volume II, and beau-ti-fully done btw. :)

BWV1053 arr. for oboe d'amore is heard on volume III.  Patrick Beaugiraud, the soloist, provides playing
of such fluidity and nuance that it is enough to make jazz fans dizzy with joy (not to mention Baroque
fans)!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: 71 dB on September 14, 2007, 06:16:31 AM
Branderburg concertos have never been my favorite Bach. Today I listened all 6 (Capella Istropolitana/Naxos super bargain twins) and for the first time ever I realised concertos 4 & 5 are superior to the other four. Anyone else agree?

What made me listen to these concertos again? I just watched The X-Files episode 2X01 "Little Green Men" where the 1st mov. of concerto No. 2 is played. Senator Matheson plays it in his office and asks Mulder that it is. Mulder knows it's Bach's Branderburg concerto but thinks it's No. 3.

Anyway, I have re-evaluated these works: Concertos 4 & 5 are good Bach, the rest are weak.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: 71 dB on September 14, 2007, 06:35:55 AM
Always in for a little joke, are we 71 dB? ;D

I hope nobody will take the bate.....  ::) (please?)

Q

I mean weak Bach which is still strong music, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on October 21, 2007, 10:55:19 PM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/91/75/5312828fd7a000e2702e1110.L.jpg)

I recently got my the Brandenburg concertos with Hans-Martin Linde and the Linde Consort.
Superb! A very intimate, elegant and refined "chamber" approach. Noticeably more room for the woodwinds (flutes, recorders) and less "abrasive" than the Harnoncourt I had. Excellent and virtuosic playing in the solos. The recording from 1982 is maybe not as transparent as modern recordings but is warm, detailed and natural.
The "Musikalisches Opfer" is excellent as well - intimate, mellow.

Many thanks to the posters who recommended this to me! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on October 22, 2007, 07:34:33 AM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/91/75/5312828fd7a000e2702e1110.L.jpg)
I recently got my the Brandenburg concertos with Hans-Martin Linde and the Linde Consort.
Superb! A very intimate, elegant and refined "chamber" approach.

Nice to hear that you enjoyed them, Que.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bogey on December 01, 2007, 09:08:49 AM
I have some harpsichord concertos with Leonhardt Q.  How do they compare, if you know?  (I have a two disc set that is labeled Vol. II from Musical Heritage Society label)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 01, 2007, 09:33:57 AM
I have some harpsichord concertos with Leonhardt Q.  How do they compare, if you know?  (I have a two disc set that is labeled Vol. II from Musical Heritage Society label)

Bill, I have the complete set of those recordings from the early days of HIP (1968 !). :)
It's still a "golden oldie" from the "Northern-European" school in Bach: a strong focus on musical structure in a relatively sober style. With Hogwood we have the English softer edged orchestral sonorities, combined with the exuberance of a French harpsichordist. A feast for the ear, but a very different style.

Stylistically quite close IMO opinion to Leonhardt is the newly, still ongoing, really excellent concertos series on cpo with harpsichordist and conductor Lars Ulrik Mortensen. Two issues to date:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/37/502637.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/18/972318.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bogey on December 01, 2007, 09:40:52 AM
Just sampled the second Hogwood cd above.  Seems that Leonhardt's is a bit more pronounced and Hogwood's is a bit more blended.  I also think I like the sound more of the actual harpsichord that Leonhardt is banging on.  I will sample the Mortensen ASAP.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bogey on December 01, 2007, 09:46:36 AM
Sampling the Mortensen as I type.  I believe I like it more than the Hogwood, but the Leonhardt still seems to be my choice with the very little sampling I have done.  For some reason, when it comes to the harpsichord I seem to know what I enjoy immediately without too much pondering.  Do you know of any of your haunts that may have the other volume of Leonhardt I am missing Q?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 01, 2007, 08:06:17 PM
Sampling the Mortensen as I type.  I believe I like it more than the Hogwood, but the Leonhardt still seems to be my choice with the very little sampling I have done.  For some reason, when it comes to the harpsichord I seem to know what I enjoy immediately without too much pondering.  Do you know of any of your haunts that may have the other volume of Leonhardt I am missing Q?

Leonhardt never recorded BWV1052 for Teldec so strictly there is no complete set to that effect.  Instead L's d minor was recorded earlier with Collegium Aureum (DHM), which does not sound quite the same as the one-player-per-part "Leonhart Consort."
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 01, 2007, 10:18:41 PM
Leonhardt never recorded BWV1052 for Teldec so strictly there is no complete set to that effect.  Instead L's d minor was recorded earlier with Collegium Aureum (DHM), which does not sound quite the same as the one-player-per-part "Leonhart Consort."

My "complete" set has the BWV 1052 included in a performance by the Concentus Musicus Wien conducted by Harnoncourt. Just two extra violinists.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: M forever on December 02, 2007, 12:55:42 AM
I particularly enjoy the recordings of Bach's instrumental works by Max Pommer and the Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum Leipzig (mostly members of the Gewandhausorchester) which fuse playing on modern instruments and with a modern sonority and sensibility very intelligently, musically and seamlessly with musical insights gained from historical performance studies. They are included in an 11-CD box of instrumental and vocal works from Capriccio which can still be had for just $32.89 from Berkshire.

Here is the complete 3rd Brandenburg Concerto, with the 2nd movement fully played out in cadenzas (320kbps mp3, 28MB): http://preview.tinyurl.com/3be8tk
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 02, 2007, 05:08:50 AM
Leonhardt never recorded BWV1052 for Teldec so strictly there is no complete set to that effect.  Instead L's d minor was recorded earlier with Collegium Aureum (DHM), which does not sound quite the same as the one-player-per-part "Leonhart Consort."

Actually Leonhardt has recorded the BWV 1052 twice.
1) With Collegium Aureum for DHM.
2) With a selected Dutch instrumental group for Seon, as far as I remember released on CD by Sony.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 02, 2007, 05:11:50 AM
My "complete" set has the BWV 1052 included in a performance by the Concentus Musicus Wien conducted by Harnoncourt. Just two extra violinists.

Q

This has been the official coupling of the complete Telefunken-set all the time (with Herbert Tachezi on harpsichord).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 02, 2007, 09:36:07 PM
My "complete" set has the BWV 1052 included in a performance by the Concentus Musicus Wien conducted by Harnoncourt. Just two extra violinists.

Q

The VCM actually sounds quite a bit larger than the Leonhart consort in that recording.  Herbert Tachezi plays in broader tempi also compared to Leonhardt.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 02, 2007, 09:45:52 PM
Actually Leonhardt has recorded the BWV 1052 twice.
1) With Collegium Aureum for DHM.
2) With a selected Dutch instrumental group for Seon, as far as I remember released on CD by Sony.

Yes, in the latter case coupled with a CPE Bach concerto, also in d minor.  Is the orchestra one-player-to--part?
The truly complete set by his student Bob van Asperen (Virgin) also uses a "quartet" plus violone for orchestral support.  Leonhardt himself plays the other solo part on the double concerti disc!  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 03, 2007, 01:31:27 AM
What do you think of that Van Asperen set?  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KKAP641RL._AA240_.jpg)

Q

Not immediately likeable like the Leonhardt, since van Asperen pushes things a bit here
and there, but ultimately convincing due to the integrity of his artistic vision.  Not to
mention an affordable price (for the reissue you pictured.)  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 03, 2007, 02:30:38 PM
Yes, in the latter case coupled with a CPE Bach concerto, also in d minor.  Is the orchestra one-player-to--part?

No, as far as I remember it is scored something like 4,3,3,2,1. Got it on vinyl some years ago, transcribed it to CD maybe five years ago, and gave the LP to a friend, so I don´t own the cover any more. And foolishly didn´t preserve the information about the players. I think it is a more "elegant" interpretation than the one with Collegium Aureum.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 04, 2007, 11:42:51 AM
No, as far as I remember it is scored something like 4,3,3,2,1. Got it on vinyl some years ago, transcribed it to CD maybe five years ago, and gave the LP to a friend, so I don´t own the cover any more. And foolishly didn´t preserve the information about the players. I think it is a more "elegant" interpretation than the one with Collegium Aureum.

Thank you for the information - I might obtain it if I see it somewhere, as it appears to be OOP at the moment.  His performance with CA is quite available though.  Given the fact that Bach performed these concerti at the Cafe Zimmermann, an orchestra of 4, 3, 3, 2, 1 seems rather large.  Over the years I have gravitated towards the OPPP versions and these includes the Cafe Zimmermann recordings on Alpha.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 04, 2007, 11:46:40 AM
Thank you for the information - I might obtain it if I see it somewhere, as it appears to be OOP at the moment.  His performance with CA is quite available though.  Given the fact that Bach performed these concerti at the Cafe Zimmermann, an orchestra of 4, 3, 3, 2, 1 seems rather large.  Over the years I have gravitated towards the OPPP versions and these includes the Cafe Zimmermann recordings on Alpha.

OPPP ?   :-\

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 04, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
OPPP ?   :-\

Q

One Player Per Part  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 08, 2007, 01:46:50 AM
(http://real1.phononet.de/cover/small/626/171/nyat56jz.j31)

Not immediately likeable like the Leonhardt, since van Asperen pushes things a bit here
and there, but ultimately convincing due to the integrity of his artistic vision.  Not to
mention an affordable price (for the reissue you pictured.)  :)

I got this last week, and I liked it much more than I had expected! :)
An excellent set: clear, bright and incisive playing. Like fl. traverso mentioned they push things in the faster movements, which can be very catchy but is at times also a bit "Bach on a trip"! ;D Ultimately, I don't think this could use more intimacy and is emotionally a bit too detached. But a very good set, which I will occasionally revisit with pleasure. Recommended as an additional set.



(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/1957893.jpg)
Just sampled the second Hogwood cd above.  Seems that Leonhardt's is a bit more pronounced and Hogwood's is a bit more blended.  I also think I like the sound more of the actual harpsichord that Leonhardt is banging on.

It does not happen often, but I'm reconsidering and retracting my earlier positive comments on this!  ::)
I had always regretted missing out on the Hogwood/Rousset cycle, having previously a positive impression of it and enjoying the issue with the 3-4 harpsichord concertos very much.
I recently got the reissue above and on repeated listening, it disappoints. I think Bill (Bogey) hit the nail on the head. Hogwoods accompaniment is too bland and basically very fussy. The performance is not sufficiently focused.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on December 08, 2007, 08:23:43 AM
(http://real1.phononet.de/cover/small/626/171/nyat56jz.j31)

I got this last week, and I liked it much more than I had expected! :)
An excellent set: clear, bright and incisive playing. Like fl. traverso mentioned they push things in the faster movements, which can be very catchy but is at times also a bit "Bach on a trip"! ;D Ultimately, I don't think this could use more intimacy and is emotionally a bit too detached. But a very good set, which I will occasionally revisit with pleasure. Recommended as an additional set.


It's good to read feedback on previous recs.  I agree that van Asperen's set is emotionally detached, but it has plenty of "Lust des Spiels" to offer -- in-movement tempo and rhythmic inflections are subtle but frequent, if only the listeners can catch them!  As soon as one tunes in with the wavelength, it's a joy ride all the way to the end. One may say it's more "leonhardt" than Leonhardt, and its charm is a kind that one simply doesn't get from musicians from other countries, especially France and Italy where the boil is sometimes too close to the surface. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on March 21, 2008, 02:31:35 PM
I have the Brandenburg Concertos on two CDs, Boston Baroque, Martin Perlman. Telarc.  This seems to be a good recording. Are there any that stand out as being better? I don't know what it is but most of my posts are concerned with asking what are the "best" recordings, just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces. I am still quite a novice re classical music and the recommendations I get here are really helpful, from those "in the know". And I realize that while these may be very subjective calls, there is usually, nonetheless, some consensus that this or that orchestra performs this or that piece best. Thanks in advance for all the recommendations
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2008, 02:45:05 PM
I have the Brandenburg Concertos on two CDs, Boston Baroque, Martin Perlman. Telarc.  This seems to be a good recording. Are there any that stand out as being better? I don't know what it is but most of my posts are concerned with asking what are the "best" recordings, just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces. I am still quite a novice re classical music and the recommendations I get here are really helpful, from those "in the know". And I realize that while these may be very subjective calls, there is usually, nonetheless, some consensus that this or that orchestra performs this or that piece best. Thanks in advance for all the recommendations


Actually, in this forum there is rarely consensus. We're a damn bunch of individualists who don't cotton to any pinko concepts of solidarity and commonality  ;D

Me, I've always loved Benjamin Britten's Bach Brandenburgs (probably because I'm a poet and love alliteration  ;) )

For a HIP version, the Linde Consort satisfies.

I'm not claiming either is the "best." I don't think such a thing exists.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 21, 2008, 02:54:12 PM
I have the Brandenburg Concertos on two CDs, Boston Baroque, Martin Perlman. Telarc.  This seems to be a good recording. Are there any that stand out as being better? I don't know what it is but most of my posts are concerned with asking what are the "best" recordings, just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces. I am still quite a novice re classical music and the recommendations I get here are really helpful, from those "in the know". And I realize that while these may be very subjective calls, there is usually, nonetheless, some consensus that this or that orchestra performs this or that piece best. Thanks in advance for all the recommendations

Perlman´s recording is in my opinion a rather good middle of the road HIP-performance. Not the most individual, though, but this may be an advantage.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidW on March 21, 2008, 03:03:52 PM
just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces.

If that is your top priority you might be best served with a recording that has excellent sound quality and good position of the microphones.  Shouldn't be a problem with the recording that you have.

If by miss anything, you didn't mean the music, but some sense of feeling or depth, that's entirely subjective as you mentioned and well I suggest Britten and Harnoncourt for contrasting views that might go well with what you have.  I personally prefer zippy HIP, but you already have that covered don't you?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on March 21, 2008, 03:22:32 PM
By "missing anything" I mean only this: That suppose 85 out of every 100 experienced classical music listeners all agree that an ASMF recording of a certain piece is the best one they have heard, in their own experience. And while this is subjective, it is a subjectivity that means something, because we have so many liking one particular recording above all the others. And I am here with a Argentina Junior Symphony recording of that same piece, and I don't know anything about Academy of St Martin in the Fields. So the experienced folks tell me about it and it opens up a window. Or there is a NY Philharmonic rendering of something of Mozart's and I have some other recording, when the vast majority of long-time listeners say that the Vienna Philharmonic is the one to listen to because of this or that reason. So these subjective opinions actually become more than subjective because of the sheer number of people who are voicing these subjective opinions. I asked this same question re Resphigi's Pines of Rome and got responses about ensembles I had never heard of, so it was great. I do the same thing especially in the area of biography, where I would never pick a book off the shelf in a bookstore re biography of, say, Lincoln, only to find out later that that biography is the worst of the hundreds written, according to a poll of the world's top 100 historians. Nowthis doesn't mean that these opinions are infallible, but the more people that prefer a certain recording, the better the chances that there is something of quality there. So it seems subjective but it becomes a kind of "mass subjectivity" when so many folks recommend the same thing. I have learned quite a bit in the last fifteen minutes about these different recordings. Thanks to all.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Don on March 21, 2008, 03:38:57 PM
By "missing anything" I mean only this: That suppose 85 out of every 100 experienced classical music listeners all agree that an ASMF recording of a certain piece is the best one they have heard, in their own experience.

For frequently recorded works, 85% never happens.  Regardless, my favored versions are Goebel and Pinnock.  However, there are many others that are close behind (such as the Perlman).  Generally, I don't think well of modern instrument sets, but I do have the Britten and enjoy it very much.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on March 21, 2008, 03:43:22 PM
The more I think about it and read the responses, the more I think that maybe there is no consensus or at least not usually except in very broad terms e.g. the Berlin Philharmonic is a great orchestra. But maybe there are 20 great recordings in existence, each with a slight emphasis that is different from the rest, and I am beginning to see this, that it is more subjective than I first thought. And maybe I am making this harder than it is :). Sit back and relax and enjoy the music instead of doing so much research on it. And for the most part, I do. Every once in awhile I will play something well-known and wonder, I wonder what the GMG folks think about this?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2008, 03:51:47 PM
I have the Brandenburg Concertos on two CDs, Boston Baroque, Martin Perlman. Telarc.  This seems to be a good recording. Are there any that stand out as being better? I don't know what it is but most of my posts are concerned with asking what are the "best" recordings, just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces. I am still quite a novice re classical music and the recommendations I get here are really helpful, from those "in the know". And I realize that while these may be very subjective calls, there is usually, nonetheless, some consensus that this or that orchestra performs this or that piece best. Thanks in advance for all the recommendations

I have relatively few recordings of these to compare, but the set you already have is the one I grab most often.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Antonio Rosetti  Symphonies Vol.1 - Concerto Köln - Sinfonia in B -III- Menuet: Allegretto - Trio - Menuet
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: BorisG on March 21, 2008, 04:01:17 PM
I have the Brandenburg Concertos on two CDs, Boston Baroque, Martin Perlman. Telarc.  This seems to be a good recording. Are there any that stand out as being better? I don't know what it is but most of my posts are concerned with asking what are the "best" recordings, just to be sure I don't miss anything for certain special pieces. I am still quite a novice re classical music and the recommendations I get here are really helpful, from those "in the know". And I realize that while these may be very subjective calls, there is usually, nonetheless, some consensus that this or that orchestra performs this or that piece best. Thanks in advance for all the recommendations

Boston is better than most, so at this stage I would advise that you not change.
My preference is
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X0ZJDRF0L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2008, 04:05:53 PM
I am beginning to see this, that it is more subjective than I first thought. And maybe I am making this harder than it is :). Sit back and relax and enjoy the music instead of doing so much research on it..

I would suggest you sit back, relax, and enjoy the music you have....AND continue your research. The available recordings of the Brandenburgs cover a dizzying variety of performances and styles. All you can do at this point (and I assume you are relatively new to classical music, or at least new to Bach) is to ask questions (and you are already very good at that), read opinions, and then form your own once you've heard more than one version. I don't know anything about you, but I have discovered most listeners fall into one of two categories: those who hear a performance, like it, and want more recordings that are similiar; and those who hear a performance and want something completely different (in this forum, myself and M forever fall into the latter category). So which are you? If you want something like Perlman, get Goebel. If you want something different, try Leppard or Britten.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on March 21, 2008, 04:19:30 PM
Hi again, Sarge. I guess I would fit mostly into the first category but maybe not. I hear something and I just like it, like most people. Then it is not as if I get dissatisfied but I just start thinking, I wonder what other really good renditions of this are out there. And it is not this big desire for more of the same thing or the same thing performed a different way. I am listening right now to Respighi Ancient Airs and Dances, Lausanne Chamber Orchestra, Jesus Lopez-Cobos, and it is fascinating. Especially Suite #2, third movement or whatever it is called. I need to find out about terminology too :) Suite No. 2 III is what it says here. That is a very moving piece. So is Vaughn Williams' Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus" by ASMF. This gives me an idea to begin a new topic on another section of the forums-----under General Discussion. Sarge, I hope you go over to that topic because I would really be interested in what you have to say, you and the other folks here who are so helpful.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hornteacher on March 21, 2008, 04:44:50 PM
My personal favorite:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=108524&album_group=5
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on March 21, 2008, 04:47:41 PM
I've heard that it is a great recording. Music aside, that cover photo is a little odd, isn't it? But interesting. Just not what you would usually find on a classical music cover.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Drasko on March 21, 2008, 04:58:40 PM
These still seem available for free.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2637.0.html
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2008, 05:16:48 PM
Sarge, I hope you go over to that topic because I would really be interested in what you have to say, you and the other folks here who are so helpful.

I saw your new thread...and ran away ;D  Seriously, it's such a difficult question to answer. I have around 10,000 LPs and CDs. Choosing four or five ain't easy! But I will answer you tomorrow, once I've had more time to consider (it's very late here...I live in Germany and it's after two a.m.; my brain isn't functiioning at peak performance). I'll take your favorites into consideration and try to give music that is similar that I love.

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on March 21, 2008, 11:32:55 PM
Get DVD (Freiburg Baroque Orchesta, for example) - you see how musicians do it.  :D  Not to mention the cracking performance itself.  In comparison, the Martin Pearlman is SO genteel.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gustav on March 22, 2008, 01:55:16 AM
I don't know if this is "Better", since this is the only one i have, but after listening to this one, i find it absolutely pointless to buy other recordings ( i have heard about 7-9 different Brandburg concertos though, none of them come even close to this one).

(http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~leonid/wavs/cds_classical/brandenburg_richter.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: bassio on March 22, 2008, 03:13:10 AM
I am documenting my experiences with some of the sets I listened to, but it is still an ongoing process and am still editing these essays to suit my ongoing changes in taste, which rarely settles, and to suit my deepened interest in the HIP idiom. For example, I wouldn't tolerate some HIP sounds months ago, but now I am enjoying it - but I still did not edit my essays to reflect this.

To cut it short - my votes will be for:
Pinnock (Savall) for HIP

Marriner - (the one with Holliger, Rampal, Szeryng, Petri) for modern (severely underrated)

The one Gustav recommends (the Richter) is not bad, but I won't go for it when you compare it with the above.

You can check out my experiences here.
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essays (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essays)
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/229/bachs_first_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/229/bachs_first_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey)
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/215/bachs_second_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/215/bachs_second_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey)
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/253/bachs_third_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/253/bachs_third_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey)
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/208/bachs_fifth_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/208/bachs_fifth_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey)
http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/216/bachs_sixth_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/essay/216/bachs_sixth_brandenburg_concerto_recording_survey)

Disclaimer: most of the versions in this survey are old versions, some modern and some HIP .. I am still not acquainted with the newer HIP versions of these times, (except Alessandrini's) which I recently acquired and I will be adding newer versions to my survey in the future God willing.


By the way, if anyone is interested in writing reviews/surveys or listening guides and wants to document his idiosyncratic choices, then PM me - and he can join the editor's board on AllAboutClassical. We are in need of more contributors.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: bassio on March 22, 2008, 03:24:27 AM
I'm not claiming either is the "best." I don't think such a thing exists.
Sarge

Indeed I agree, no such thing as best ..

esp. with the Brandenburgs  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on March 22, 2008, 05:56:20 AM
Indeed I agree, no such thing as best ..

esp. with the Brandenburgs  ;)

True with everything! What about finding a Brandenburg for winter and one for summer (see the newest Mahler cycle thread)? One for the bathroom and one for the toilet?  The Brandenburg as air freshener.... ;)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hautbois on March 22, 2008, 05:59:29 AM
Quote
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2637.0.html

Indeed, is that is still available, it easily outshines most of the recordings that are commerically available out there

I agree that the Freiburg rendition on DVD is absolutely stunning. I have nothing against modern performances, but Britten's ECO performance seems rather bland to me.

Howard
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on March 22, 2008, 06:04:38 AM

I agree that the Freiburg rendition on DVD is absolutely stunning.


The Germans seem to specialise in rasor-sharp ensemble work.  Goebel/MAK is another one that dazzles in this respect.  The legato-laden Britten et al. is for romantics.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 22, 2008, 08:36:27 AM
The legato-laden Britten et al. is for romantics.  :)

HIP Bach is for p**sies!!!!  >:D  ;)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/90/454090.jpg)

1. Suite for Orchestra no 1 in C major, BWV 1066/ Busch Chamber Players/ Adolf Busch
2. Suite for Orchestra no 2 in B minor, BWV 1067/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/ Willem Mengelberg
3. Suite for Orchestra no 3 in D major, BWV 1068/ Orchestre de la Societe du Conservatoire Paris/ Felix Weingartner
4. Suite for Orchestra no 3 in D major, BWV 1068: Air/ Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra/ Willem Mengelberg (Orchestration: Gustav Mahler)
5. Suite for Orchestra no 4 in D major, BWV 1069/ Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Sergei Koussevitzky
6. Brandenburg Concerto no 1 in F major, BWV 1046/ Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/  Alois Melichar
7. Brandenburg Concerto no 2 in F major, BWV 1047/ Philadelphia Orchestra/ Leopold Stokowski
8. Brandenburg Concerto no 3 in G major, BWV 1048/ Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/ Wilhelm Furtwängler
9. Brandenburg Concerto no 4 in G major, BWV 1049/ Ecole Normale Chamber Orchestra Paris/ Alfred Cortot
10. Brandenburg Concerto no 5 in D major, BWV 1050/ Busch Chamber Players/ Adolf Busch
11. Brandenburg Concerto no 6 in B flat major, BWV 1051/ Fritz Reiner


Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on March 22, 2008, 08:45:34 AM
HIP Bach is for pussies!!!!  >:D  ;)
I'm a sucker for a good HIP recording.....now I know why.......
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hautbois on March 22, 2008, 10:03:54 AM
HIP Bach is for p**sies!!!!  >:D  ;)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/90/454090.jpg)

1. Suite for Orchestra no 1 in C major, BWV 1066/ Busch Chamber Players/ Adolf Busch
2. Suite for Orchestra no 2 in B minor, BWV 1067/ Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/ Willem Mengelberg
3. Suite for Orchestra no 3 in D major, BWV 1068/ Orchestre de la Societe du Conservatoire Paris/ Felix Weingartner
4. Suite for Orchestra no 3 in D major, BWV 1068: Air/ Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra/ Willem Mengelberg (Orchestration: Gustav Mahler)
5. Suite for Orchestra no 4 in D major, BWV 1069/ Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Sergei Koussevitzky
6. Brandenburg Concerto no 1 in F major, BWV 1046/ Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/  Alois Melichar
7. Brandenburg Concerto no 2 in F major, BWV 1047/ Philadelphia Orchestra/ Leopold Stokowski
8. Brandenburg Concerto no 3 in G major, BWV 1048/ Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/ Wilhelm Furtwängler
9. Brandenburg Concerto no 4 in G major, BWV 1049/ Ecole Normale Chamber Orchestra Paris/ Alfred Cortot
10. Brandenburg Concerto no 5 in D major, BWV 1050/ Busch Chamber Players/ Adolf Busch
11. Brandenburg Concerto no 6 in B flat major, BWV 1051/ Fritz Reiner


Q

I can already hear how bad these performances are despite never having heard any of them, except for the Mengelberg maybe, because i am biased.  :P

Howard
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2008, 04:37:57 AM
The Germans seem to specialise in rasor-sharp ensemble work.  Goebel/MAK is another one that dazzles in this respect.  The legato-laden Britten et al. is for romantics.  :)

Indeed...that's why I love it. 8)  Goebel is too hectic, too driven; Bach on speed...but I enjoy listening to it occasionally. It's better than a jolt of expresso  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on January 31, 2009, 02:26:56 PM
Great news - just issued! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014191374.jpg)

[mp3=200,20,0,left]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fugalibera.com%2Fdata%2Fcds%2F341%2Fclip.mp3[/mp3]
Concerto pour violon en la mineur BWV 1041

Concerto pour 2 clavecins en ut majeur BWV 1061

Concerto pour flûte, violon & clavecin en la mineur BWV 1044

2ème Concert Brandebourgeois en fa majeur BWV 1047

Samples (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1626253?rk=classic&rsk=home) at jpc

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on January 31, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
(http://www.fugalibera.com/data/cds/341/BIG.JPG)

I only wonder how long I will have to wait before it's available states-side!  I've had to order some of the Alpha recordings from Europe before and the postal rates are killer.  I'm just grateful that the dollar isn't so weak against the Euro anymore.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on February 01, 2009, 02:51:24 PM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/1957893.jpg)
It does not happen often, but I'm reconsidering and retracting my earlier positive comments on this!  ::)
I had always regretted missing out on the Hogwood/Rousset cycle, having previously a positive impression of it and enjoying the issue with the 3-4 harpsichord concertos very much.
I recently got the reissue above and on repeated listening, it disappoints. I think Bill (Bogey) hit the nail on the head. Hogwoods accompaniment is too bland and basically very fussy. The performance is not sufficiently focused.

Q

This is one of my favorites.  Sorry for the less than perfect image quality, as this was not scanned in by my scanner ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on February 01, 2009, 03:05:55 PM
Talking with Premont (thanks for the list  :)) on the Brandenburg Concertos the other day, a thread on Bach's music for chamber orchestra seemed a good idea!

I need some new Brandenburgs - what are your favourites?

Here are my favorites:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411W034XB9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413P19KEEWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OzvZzvpzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OFcEzBXTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21NR2NVHPEL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on February 01, 2009, 06:19:43 PM
I have heard praises about this performance.  While I do have the Richter's Brandenburg Concertos on LP, this DVD should be a bit more interesting.  The St Matthew Passion by Karl Richter on DVD is just fabulous ...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AH53QVJCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:46:08 AM
Am I alone in liking every performance on this EXCEPT the famous one with Bernstein?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on February 02, 2009, 08:20:07 AM
I have heard praises about this performance.  While I do have the Richter's Brandenburg Concertos on LP, this DVD should be a bit more interesting. 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AH53QVJCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Ooh, this DVD version is indeed horrible. Sewing-machine Bach at its worst. The music is rattled off in a most uncharming way. If you love Bach, this is not for you. Richters Choral recordings are very much better and first of all they are more expressive.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on February 02, 2009, 06:34:57 PM
Ooh, this DVD version is indeed horrible. Sewing-machine Bach at its worst. The music is rattled off in a most uncharming way. If you love Bach, this is not for you. Richters Choral recordings are very much better and first of all they are more expressive.

The worst Richter's DVD I have to date is the St John Passion.  The camera spent more time showing the wall of the church where the performance was filmed than showing the soloists. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 02:26:28 AM
The worst Richter's DVD I have to date is the St John Passion.  The camera spent more time showing the wall of the church where the performance was filmed than showing the soloists. 

What's that performance like.

I love the earlier one with Lear, Topper etc. And I like Shreier, so the DVD sounds interesting Can you recommend it ? (I don't have to watch the pictures!)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on February 03, 2009, 07:11:50 PM
What's that performance like.

I love the earlier one with Lear, Topper etc. And I like Shreier, so the DVD sounds interesting Can you recommend it ? (I don't have to watch the pictures!)

The performance was quite commendable if you can ignore the video.  Peter Schreier was outstanding as usual.  However, the 2-DVD set of the St Matthew Passion by Karl Richter is definitely the set to own and I bought that set just before last Christmas.  I have the Richter's St Matthew Passion on LP, which has a somewhat different cast ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 10:55:12 AM
Egarr’s Brandenburg Concertos (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465)

Quote
Recordings of Bach’s Brandenburg Concertos are ample; deducting for duplications and compilations, ArkivMusic lists about 50 available complete versions. Most of them could be lumped into two categories: Historically Informed Performances (HIP), and ‘old fashioned performances’. Of course that’s a gross simplification, especially when the latter category is supposed to contain, much less describe, interpretations by performers as different as the Busch Chamber Players (just re-issued on EMI Great Recordings of the Century), Cortot/Orchestre de l’École Normale de Musique, Karajan/BPO, Benjamin Britten/ECO, Karl Richter/Munich Bach Orchestra, and Marinner/Academy of St.Martin in the Fields. But then man is a categorizing animal and likes those kinds of classifications and won’t be deterred, even when some performances, like Helmut Rilling/Oregon Bach Festival Chamber Orchestra and Helmut Müller-Brühl/Cologne Chamber Orchestra, peskily straddle the fence.

Conveniently, this latest addition to the catalog on Harmonia Mundi with the Academy of Ancient Music (AAM) under its new Music Director Richard Egarr fits the much more confined former category of “HIP”, though that hardly means less competition. On a twofer of the same label, we can find the Academy for Ancient Music Berlin. Egarr’s predecessor Christopher Hogwood recorded the Brandenburg Concertos with the AAM, including Egarr, not even 20 years ago (still available on L’oiseau-Lyre/London). Nicolaus Harnoncourt and Concentus Musicus (Teldec) vie for our attention, as do Il Giardino Armonico (also Teldec), Ton Koopman/ABO (Erato, oop), Martin Perlman/Boston Baroque (Telarc), Jan Willem de Vriend/Combattimento Consort Amsterdam (Challenge), Reinhard Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln, and Pinnock/English Concert (both Archiv). And that’s just of the top of my head (or CD shelf, as it were).

Unfortunately I didn’t have the old AAM disc handy for comparison, but the two most recent major period instrument releases—Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano on Naïve and Pinnock/Brandenburg Ensemble on Avie (reviewed in concert and on CD)—served nicely to elucidate contrast and similarities. Egarr and Alessandrini use one player per part; Pinnock mostly uses a small ensemble, switching to one-to-a-part only for the Fifth Concerto.

Egarr presents the concertos in order, and the First Concerto starts boldly with a dark and round, slightly stuffed horn sound...

--> http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:49:36 PM
Egarr’s Brandenburg Concertos (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465)


Just two corrections to your quoted review text.

Egarr did not participate in the recording by AAM / Hogwood.
But he did participate in Philip Pickett´s recording for Oiseau Lyre (playing continuo).

Jan Villem de Friend´s recording is played on modern instruments and should not be categorized among period instruments performances.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 08, 2009, 12:54:21 AM
Also, the name of the Berlin-based HIP ensemble is "Akademie für alte Musik Berlin." I suppose you could translate this as "Academy for Ancient Music Berlin," but that's not the name that appears on CD covers.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2009, 03:32:21 AM
Jan Villem de Friend´s recording is played on modern instruments and should not be categorized among period instruments performances.

CCA is a period group even if they don't play on old instruments, so the categorization strikes me as perfectly apt.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 04:06:34 AM
CCA is a period group even if they don't play on old instruments, so the categorization strikes me as perfectly apt.

Exactly, and my point is, that you ought to have categorized them along with Müller-Brühl and Rilling, instead of among the groups which notoriously play on period instruments. It causes unnecessary confusion, when groups like the Combattimento Consort are called period groups.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: nut-job on March 08, 2009, 08:43:36 AM
Love the Harnoncourt (digital recording made in the 1980's).  Recently I've fallen in love with the recordings by Diego Fasolis, which are HIP and SACD surround sound.  The playing is very vibrant and sensitive, and the audio engineering is superb.  I'm ordinarily an enthusiast for HIP Bach, but there is something to learned by listening to Karajan's older recording (not the subsequent horror), particularly in the slow movements.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Wirs9s5GL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OOs7Z7A9L._SS500_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V20DB6V5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2009, 10:46:51 AM
Exactly, and my point is, that you ought to have categorized them along with Müller-Brühl and Rilling, instead of among the groups which notoriously play on period instruments. It causes unnecessary confusion, when groups like the Combattimento Consort are called period groups.

You are right, of course... but the way I see (or 'feel') it more in a technical sense. When I've seen/heard CCA, they always "felt" much more like their HIP cousins than their "HIPfluenced" M-Bruehl/Rilling brothers. The latter are, to my tastes, much more a bridge between two styles whereas the CCA is HIP that happens to be on modern strings. You may not agree, but do you know what I mean?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 10:57:39 AM
I have this recording

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V20DB6V5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and I believe a later recording ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619KRpdOtcL._SS500_.jpg)

Is this later recording a disaster in your opinion?

I have close to 20 versions of Brandenburg Concertos between CD's and LP's.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: nut-job on March 08, 2009, 11:59:23 AM
I have this recording

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V20DB6V5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and I believe a later recording ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619KRpdOtcL._SS500_.jpg)

Is this later recording a disaster in your opinion?

I have close to 20 versions of Brandenburg Concertos between CD's and LP's.

The later recording is the one I found no pleasure in.  The older one was unabashedly old school, in the newer one he seems to assimilate some HIP influences, just enough to ruin his style.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 12:07:23 PM
You are right, of course... but the way I see (or 'feel') it more in a technical sense. When I've seen/heard CCA, they always "felt" much more like their HIP cousins than their "HIPfluenced" M-Bruehl/Rilling brothers. The latter are, to my tastes, much more a bridge between two styles whereas the CCA is HIP that happens to be on modern strings. You may not agree, but do you know what I mean?

Yes, I understand very well, what you mean, and I agree completely. The Combattimento Consort´s interpretation is also in my opinion more HIP than many period instruments recordings. Actually I do not know a more exciting and rewarding recording on modern instruments than this one, and I know almost all recordings ever made of these concertos. If you look into this thread maybe a year back, you will find my recommendation of this recording.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 12:09:54 PM
The later recording is the one I found no pleasure in.  The older one was unabashedly old school, in the newer one he seems to assimilate some HIP influences, just enough to ruin his style.


As great as the Karajan/BPO combo were, none of their Brandenburg Concertos even rank among the top five in my book.  But you have to give Karajan/BPO credit for the string sound produced, it was just exemplary.  No other full-sized orchestras in the world could have produced such string sound.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 12:16:37 PM
The later recording is the one I found no pleasure in.  The older one was unabashedly old school, in the newer one he seems to assimilate some HIP influences, just enough to ruin his style.

I think the Concertos 1,2,4 & 5 of Karajans first recording are - if somewhat old school- tolerable and rather well played by the great soloists e.g. Alan Civil, Adolf Scherbaum and Michael Schwalbe. But the massive sound of Concertos 3 & 6 is next to intolerable.

Karajans second recording is just without style alltogether, I do not know, what he intended to show.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 12:20:07 PM
I have close to 20 versions of Brandenburg Concertos between CD's and LP's.

May I be curious and ask: Which ones??
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 08, 2009, 01:22:41 PM
May I be curious and ask: Which ones??

We have been invaded by a quantitative fever.

Anyway, I am out of race because I just have twelve complete versions:

HIP: Musica Antiqua Köln, Boston Early Music Festival Orchestra (Parrott), Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment (Huggett), I Barocchisti, La Petite Bande, Concerto Italiano, Concentus Musicus Wien (1964), Musica Amphion, Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Leonhardt (Seon) and AAM.

Additionally, an excellent version on modern instruments by Consort of London (Robert Haydon Clark).

Somewhere (I really don’t know where) von Karajan.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: nut-job on March 08, 2009, 02:35:11 PM
But the massive sound of Concertos 3 & 6 is next to intolerable.

That's just what I like most in the set, the absurdity of it.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 02:47:59 PM
We have been invaded by a quantitative fever.

Anyway, I am out of race because I just have twelve complete versions:

HIP: Musica Antiqua Köln, Boston Early Music Festival Orchestra (Parrott), Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment (Huggett), I Barocchisti, La Petite Bande, Concerto Italiano, Concentus Musicus Wien (1964), Musica Amphion, Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Leonhardt (Seon) and AAM.

Additionally, an excellent version on modern instruments by Consort of London (Robert Haydon Clark).



Quantitative fever?? My interests are focused much more upon "which ones" than "how many".

And I hate to bring forward those small corrections, but the Parrott version is played by an English ensemble called the Taverner Consort, counting members like John Holloway and the late John Toll. The Boston ensemble plays only the Suites and the Triple concerto BWV 1044.
But Parrott´s Brandenburgs is a rather hectic performance like the version of I Barrochisti. My preferred versions - of the ones you mention - are the Leonhardt and La Petite bande. I think these are noble and warm performances, and my only quibbles are the insecure oboe(s) Dombrecht and the insufficient tromba in Leonhardts version and the use of corno in Kuijkens version, as well as the all too rushed tempo for the last movement in Concerto no 3 in both versions. Fortunately I own a concert broadcast from the year 2000 with La Petite Bande using tromba in no.2 (but still a rushed second movement in 3). The Robert Haydon Clark version is also one of my favorites, especially the dark noble no.6.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 02:49:01 PM
That's just what I like most in the set, the absurdity of it.


For me it works at most like a guilty pleasure  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 08, 2009, 04:19:45 PM
Quantitative fever?? My interests are focused much more upon "which ones" than "how many".

Hey, Premont, I was only joking about this question, especially considering the usual discussion about big box sets v/s single recordings. That's the problem with the written language; therefore, I will add this:  ;D 

And I hate to bring forward those small corrections, but the Parrott version is played by an English ensemble called the Taverner Consort, counting members like John Holloway and the late John Toll. The Boston ensemble plays only the Suites and the Triple concerto BWV 1044.
But Parrott´s Brandenburgs is a rather hectic performance like the version of I Barrochisti. My preferred versions - of the ones you mention - are the Leonhardt and La Petite bande. I think these are noble and warm performances, and my only quibbles are the insecure oboe(s) Dombrecht and the insufficient tromba in Leonhardts version and the use of corno in Kuijkens version, as well as the all too rushed tempo for the last movement in Concerto no 3 in both versions. Fortunately I own a concert broadcast from the year 2000 with La Petite Bande using tromba in no.2 (but still a rushed second movement in 3). The Robert Haydon Clark version is also one of my favorites, especially the dark noble no.6.

A funny thing: When I was writing my previous post, I was confused about the group who performed the Brandenburgs under Parrott. I have not heard those CDs (the Orchestral Suites and the Brandenburgs) in a long time. But I was so comfortably seated in my room. I recalled my friend Premont, but I was imprudent and trusted in my weak memory… I will hear those Brandenburgs tonight. And, please  ;), I know a group called Taverner Players

My favorites are, for sure, La Petite Bande, the AAM (I like the English way) and Leonhardt.

A big disappointment: Pieter-Jan Belder and his Musica Amphion. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:26:23 PM
May I be curious and ask: Which ones??

On CD

Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   European Brandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   English Concert/Pinnock
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Berlin Phil./Karajan (live)
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Berlin Phil./Karajan
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Berlin Phil./Karajan
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-3   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 4-6   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Acad. of Ancient Music/Hogwood
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1, 2 & 6   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 3, 4 & 5   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Brandenburg Consort/Goodman
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-3   English Chamber Orch/Leppard
Brandenburg Concertos No. 4-6   English Chamber Orch/Leppard
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-4   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 5-6, Orchestral Suites No. 1   ASMIF/Marriner
Orchestral Suites Nos, 2-4   ASMIF/Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   English Chamber Orch/Somary(SACD)
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6   Orch of the Age of Enlight/Huggett
Brandenburg Concerto No. 5   Academy of Ancient Music Berlin(SACD)
Orchestral Suites, Brandenburg Concertos, etc   Saar Chamber Orch/Ristenpart
Orchestral Suites, Brandenburg Concertos, etc   Wurttemburg Cham. Orch/Farber

On LP

Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Concentus Musicus of Vienna
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         English Concert - Trevor Pinnock
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Berlin Phil - Karajan
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra - Munchinger
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Munich Bach Orchestra - Karl Richter
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Marlboro Festival Orchestra - Casal
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         ASMIF - Marriner
Brandenburg Concertos No. 1-6         Saar Chamber Orchestra - Ristenpart
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:29:34 PM
On CD
(...)

On LP
(...)

I forgot to include another version that came with that mammoth 155-CD set on Brilliant Classics.  Not sure if the conductor was Jan Pieter Belder ...

Oh, I also forgot a very unlikely version on LP, by I Musici, the famed Italian baroque ensemble that has ceased to exist ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 04:33:48 PM
And, please  ;), I know a group called Taverner Players
Sorry, I meant Taverner Players. I am at my work and not at home now, so I could not verify the exact details from the CDset.

My favorites are, for sure, La Petite Bande, the AAM (I like the English way) and Leonhardt.
Mine the same except that I prefer Pinnock to Hogwood

A big disappointment: Pieter-Jan Belder and his Musica Amphion. 

Yes, I have listened to this only once, and have not yet been tempted to try a second listen.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 04:44:29 PM
I forgot to include another version that came with that mammoth 155-CD set on Brilliant Classics.  Not sure if the conductor was Jan Pieter Belder ...

Oh, I also forgot a very unlikely version on LP, by I Musici, the famed Italian baroque ensemble that has ceased to exist ...

Well an impressive collection, I very much appreciate the inclusion of the rare and underrated Ristenpart.I suppose you own all three Marriner sets? But else many of the groups/conductors you mention, recorded the works twice or even three times, so it becomes very much a question of conjecture to find out, which ones you mean.

Which ones do you tresure the most?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 05:47:53 PM
Well an impressive collection, I very much appreciate the inclusion of the rare and underrated Ristenpart.I suppose you own all three Marriner sets? But else many of the groups/conductors you mention, recorded the works twice or even three times, so it becomes very much a question of conjecture to find out, which ones you mean.

Which ones do you tresure the most?

Believe it or not, while I generally prefer performance on period instruments when it comes to baroque works, I am particularly fond of the 1980 Marriner recordings with that all-star cast.  Versions by Trevor Pinnock with the English Concert and Roy Goodman with the Brandenburg Consort are also my favorites.  Indeed, versions by the Saar Chamber Orchestra with Karl Ristenpart, the Marlboro Festival Orchestra with Pablo Casal and I Musici are all somewhat rare.
Considering I have close to 1000 CD's/LP's on Bach works, the number of versions of Brandenburg Concertos I have are by no means excessive.

Just checked my records shelf, it looks like I also have a version by Festival Strings Lucerne with Joseph Suk, Christiane Jaccottet, etc. on Eurodisc.  It appears to be a somewhat rare version as well.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e7/7a/ece1c0a398a0349b9328f110.L.jpg)   (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/71/ac8a228348a01b758ded3110.L.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 08, 2009, 06:56:06 PM

But Parrott´s Brandenburgs is a rather hectic performance like the version of I Barrochisti.

I didn’t remember the Parrott’s recording, but in several parts is very hectic indeed. The quality sound is not excellent, but curiously was improved when I used headphones, which it’s weird. I would say that the "sound stage" is a bit limited. 

It’s rather impressive how many HIP versions of these works are damaged by wrong tempi: Musica Antiqua Köln, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, I Barocchisti, Musica Florea and, very recently, the American Bach Soloists.

Some days ago I was listening to the latter, when exactly this problem appeared in the Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 in G, BWV 1048:

http://americanbach.org/recordings/Brandenburgs.htm
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 07:01:39 PM
Well an impressive collection, I very much appreciate the inclusion of the rare and underrated Ristenpart.I suppose you own all three Marriner sets? But else many of the groups/conductors you mention, recorded the works twice or even three times, so it becomes very much a question of conjecture to find out, which ones you mean.

Which ones do you tresure the most?

I do own all versions by Marriner.  I also have a version by Karajan/BPO on the Nuova Era label, which was a live recording made in Milan? 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 08:38:28 PM
Quantitative fever?? My interests are focused much more upon "which ones" than "how many".

But Parrott´s Brandenburgs is a rather hectic performance like the version of I Barrochisti.

I remember Parott's version as being anything but hectic, at least compared to more recent accounts.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2009, 11:55:46 PM
Considering I have close to 1000 CD's/LP's on Bach works, the number of versions of Brandenburg Concertos I have are by no means excessive.
I do own all versions by Marriner.  I also have a version by Karajan/BPO on the Nuova Era label.

Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 09, 2009, 12:13:23 AM
Though an ardent Bach fan, I'm not big on multiple recordings. And the Brandenburgs are something I do not listen to all that often. I don't like non-HIP (owning any Bach by the illustrious "HvK" sounds actually rather frightening.. :o) and don't like the Brits in this (yeah, sorry.. :-\)

I have been happy for years with Harnoncourt's 2nd take. Got the recording by the Linde Consort on recommendation by Premont. Wonderful, an absolutely wonderful subtle and intimate chamber music angle, after Harnoncourt's somewhat brash, grander and more driven approach.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/91/75/5312828fd7a000e2702e1110.L.jpg)

I'm in the market for more, maybe one of the new "Italianate" recordings by Alessandrini or Fasolis.

Also maybe another of the pioneering recordings, like the Collegium Aureum or Leonhardt. Then maybe Kuijken - like his Suites very much! :) Finally, after hearing Von der Goltz's Dresden concertos by Vivaldi (!) with the Freiburger, I immediately knew he would be perfect for the Brandenburgs. And indeed this fits the feedbacks here on a DVD they did. I'll be waiting for a CD-recording by them. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 12:41:24 AM
It’s rather impressive how many HIP versions of these works are damaged by wrong tempi:  the American Bach Soloists.

Quite a shame. Incidentally I ordered this a week ago from Amazon.com. It may arrive in a couple of weeks.
When reading Jens´review of the Egarr version, one gets the impression, that this may be a different and more musical reading. So I shall order this too.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 12:50:01 AM
Got the recording by the Linde Consort on recommendation by Premont. Wonderful, an absolutely wonderful subtle and intimate chamber music angle, after Harnoncourt's somewhat brash, grander and more driven approach.
Good to hear. What a shame, that it is out of print.

I'm in the market for more, maybe one of the new "Italianate" recordings by Alessandrini or Fasolis.
Would without doubt prefer the singing Alessandrini to the nervous Fasolis.


Finally, after hearing Von der Goltz's Dresden concertos by Vivaldi (!) with the Freiburger, I immediately knew he would be perfect for the Brandenburgs. And indeed this fits the feedbacks here on a DVD they did. I'll be waiting for a CD-recording by them. :)
Do you think they will make a new version? Or you may, as I have done, transfer the recording to CD.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 12:53:04 AM
Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?
You may have missed my last answer to you (post 122).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 01:03:56 AM
Believe it or not, while I generally prefer performance on period instruments when it comes to baroque works, I am particularly fond of the 1980 Marriner recordings with that all-star cast. 


Yes this is, as it seems, a fine version with splendid soloists. It is just that it - like many of Marriners recordings - has got a strange "self-playing" quality, which I find alien to the spirit of the music.

Just checked my records shelf, it looks like I also have a version by Festival Strings Lucerne with Joseph Suk, Christiane Jaccottet, etc. on Eurodisc.  It appears to be a somewhat rare version as well.

Something similar might be said about this, why I prefer Baumgartners earlier version on Archiv, which communicate the joy of music making in a more charming way - at least in these ears.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 01:05:02 AM
I do own all versions by Marriner.  I also have a version by Karajan/BPO on the Nuova Era label, which was a live recording made in Milan? 


Not the live version from Salzburg? In very bad sound?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: bassio on March 09, 2009, 03:44:16 AM
Believe it or not, while I generally prefer performance on period instruments when it comes to baroque works, I am particularly fond of the 1980 Marriner recordings with that all-star cast.  Versions by Trevor Pinnock with the English Concert and Roy Goodman with the Brandenburg Consort are also my favorites.  Indeed, versions by the Saar Chamber Orchestra with Karl Ristenpart, the Marlboro Festival Orchestra with Pablo Casal and I Musici are all somewhat rare.
Considering I have close to 1000 CD's/LP's on Bach works, the number of versions of Brandenburg Concertos I have are by no means excessive.

Just checked my records shelf, it looks like I also have a version by Festival Strings Lucerne with Joseph Suk, Christiane Jaccottet, etc. on Eurodisc.  It appears to be a somewhat rare version as well.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e7/7a/ece1c0a398a0349b9328f110.L.jpg)   (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/71/ac8a228348a01b758ded3110.L.jpg)

 

Ditto Coopmv, this is one of my favorite versions ever, together with the Pinnock recording on Archiv etc.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 06:09:35 AM
I didn’t remember the Parrott’s recording, but in several parts is very hectic indeed. The quality sound is not excellent, but curiously was improved when I used headphones, which it’s weird.

Just relistened to Parrott´s Brandenburgs 1-6 which I have not heard maybe in five years.
My impression is unchanged. The often hectic character is not (IMO) caused by the fast tempi as such - this music has been played even faster by others - but from the fact, that there is a perceptible lack in the ultimate precision of ensemble, and that some of the musicians seem uncomfortable with the chosen tempi. SQ a bit sharp but tolerable.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 09, 2009, 04:55:28 PM
Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?

Pardon my short memory, I think someone here has 29 versions of Bach Complete Organ Works, which must include every conceivable version out there.  FK and I each have at least 16 Beethoven Symphonies.  How many version of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas does our Richtervangelist have now?  Well, that is life.  We all have the tendency to overdo ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on March 09, 2009, 05:08:43 PM
Will somebody wake me up once we have the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion behind us and talk about recordings extends at least minimally beyond "I think [X] is awesome. [Y] is awesome, too!"?

Jens, I'm afraid half the discussions in our dear forum boil down to this before long. The other half are in the Diner. ;)


On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 09, 2009, 05:23:56 PM
Jens, I'm afraid half the discussions in our dear forum boil down to this before long. The other half are in the Diner. ;)


On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...

Check out this DVD by Karajan on an all-Bach program, Violin Concertos and Magnificat, performed on New Year's Eve 1984.  Karajan actually conducted from the harpsichord for the Violin Concertos while Anne-Sophie Mutter played the violin.  I truly enjoy this DVD ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21WRX92FXRL._SL500_AA140_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2009, 06:36:48 PM
Just relistened to Parrott´s Brandenburgs 1-6 which I have not heard maybe in five years.
My impression is unchanged. The often hectic character is not (IMO) caused by the fast tempi as such - this music has been played even faster by others - but from the fact, that there is a perceptible lack in the ultimate precision of ensemble, and that some of the musicians seem uncomfortable with the chosen tempi. SQ a bit sharp but tolerable.

Last night I heard the entire recording and Parrott made me a very poor impression here.

IMO the problem has something to do with the idea, defended by Harnoncourt, about the Baroque music as speech. These works are essentially a very well-mannered conversation; with ideas, arguments and phrases that are expressed on different instruments (Alessandrini says something similar in his booklet and DVD). Therefore, when the talk doesn't flow and you can't listen to every “argument”, the thing isn't working out.

This isn't an awful recording and has enjoyable moments (especially in the slow movements), but it frequently doesn't flow. You don't get the idea of a group of friends, everyone listening to the others and having a good time.

And the sound quality doesn't help. 

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: nut-job on March 09, 2009, 08:46:10 PM
On other news, I am considering risking the late BPO/Karajan Brandenburgs. I've a good track record from making sense (and indeed enjoying) "controversial" - especially late - Karajan recordings, and I'm very curious to hear just what he did there...

These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on March 09, 2009, 10:32:05 PM
These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.

Trying to drive Renfield of the forum?   ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 10, 2009, 10:13:47 AM
IMO the problem has something to do with the idea, defended by Harnoncourt, about the Baroque music as speech. These works are essentially a very well-mannered conversation; with ideas, arguments and phrases that are expressed on different instruments (Alessandrini says something similar in his booklet and DVD). Therefore, when the talk doesn't flow and you can't listen to every “argument”, the thing isn't working out.

This isn't an awful recording and has enjoyable moments (especially in the slow movements), but it frequently doesn't flow. You don't get the idea of a group of friends, everyone listening to the others and having a good time.

A very apt (and poetic) way to describe the situation. Baroque music regarded (and Bach certainly the most) as speech, not only as to phrasing and articulation, but also as to conversation. I do not think Harnoncourt invented this point of view, but I always agreed with him. I have had some discussion in another forum concerning the distiction between speech and song, but in my opinion speech is the most adequate description, especially regarding the articulation.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2009, 10:32:08 AM
Baroque music regarded (and Bach certainly the most) as speech, not only as to phrasing and articulation, but also as to conversation. I do not think Harnoncourt invented this point of view, but I always agreed with him. I have had some discussion in another forum concerning the distiction between speech and song, but in my opinion speech is the most adequate description, especially regarding the articulation.

That's exactly my opinion too.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on March 10, 2009, 01:16:31 PM
Though an ardent Bach fan, I'm not big on multiple recordings. And the Brandenburgs are something I do not listen to all that often. I don't like non-HIP (owning any Bach by the illustrious "HvK" sounds actually rather frightening.. :o)

Agreed.  Karajan/Bach is one bankrupt partnership.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on March 10, 2009, 02:16:59 PM
These are not late recordings, from the 70's, and they're dismal.


Trying to drive Renfield of the forum?   ;D

Hah! Not even close. If I was that easy to get rid of, I wouldn't be where I am. ;D


On Karajan's Brandenburgs:

I was under the impression the set I was referring to (the second one) was issued in the 80's. In fact, I am still under the same impression! ;)

And they might well be dismal! That's why I want to hear them, I want to know first-hand; perhaps I might even find something to like in them (as I often do with the less successful Karajan recordings), even if I might still agree that they are not recommendable.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 10, 2009, 06:00:14 PM
Hah! Not even close. If I was that easy to get rid of, I wouldn't be where I am. ;D


On Karajan's Brandenburgs:

I was under the impression the set I was referring to (the second one) was issued in the 80's. In fact, I am still under the same impression! ;)


I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on March 10, 2009, 06:12:44 PM
I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.

1978-1979, according to Deutsche Grammophon (http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?SearchString=karajan+brandenburg&ART_ID=&COMP_ID=&ALBUM_TYPE=&IN_XXSERIES=&javascript=1&x=0&y=0). You are correct. :)

And I think my misunderstanding was likely based on the fact that, as a child of the CD-era, I only counted the CD release date, which seems to be after the turn of the decade; but I understand they might've been available on LP closer to their recording dates, thus in the 1970's.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2009, 06:13:18 PM
I think the last of the Brandenburg Concertos recorded by Karajan was made in the 70's.

The first set was recorded 64/65, the second 78/879.

typo corrected
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 10, 2009, 06:14:04 PM
Agreed.  Karajan/Bach is one bankrupt partnership.

Karajan was never known for Bach or Handel for that matter.  This 3-CD set of Handel Concerto Grossi, Op. 6 I have is probably one of the worst ever recorded.  The tempo just does not sound right ...



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 10, 2009, 06:15:08 PM
The first set was recorded 64/65, the second 78/89.

So the second set was completed just shortly before he died ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on March 10, 2009, 06:17:55 PM
So the second set was completed just shortly before he died ...

Or Jens made a typo, and it's 78/79. ;)

Karajan was never known for Bach or Handel for that matter.  This 3-CD set of Handel Concerto Grossi, Op. 6 I have is probably one of the worst ever recorded.  The tempo just does not sound right ...

Goodness! I didn't know that set even existed; and no, this one I am not tempted to experiment with. ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 10, 2009, 06:19:50 PM
Or Jens made a typo, and it's 78/79. ;)

Goodness! I didn't know that set even existed; and no, this one I am not tempted to experiment with. ;D

This set may have been merged into some massive Karajan 100th birthday re-issues ...    ;D

I like the original CD artwork though ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 14, 2009, 08:04:22 AM
I believe most of the more recent recordings Standage made (with Chandos) after he left the English Concert to found Collegium Musicum 90 have been Albinoni works ...

He has recorded two CDs containing Bach violin concertos with CM 90.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 14, 2009, 08:06:19 AM
He has recorded two CDs containing Bach violin concertos with CM 90.


Are they both on Chandos?  I should check them out.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 14, 2009, 08:50:24 AM
Are they both on Chandos?  I should check them out.

Yes, on Chandos

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Violin-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B000000A6E/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237049340&sr=1-7

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Concertos-Bach-Bonporti-Vivaldi/dp/B000000A4X/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237049384&sr=1-13
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 14, 2009, 08:52:32 AM
Though I think, that his recordings with Pinnock (Archiv) are musically more satisfying and better recorded.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 14, 2009, 09:59:12 AM
Though I think, that his recordings with Pinnock (Archiv) are musically more satisfying and better recorded.

You have a point there.  The ORIGINAL English Concert was something to treasure.  Today English Concert was nothing like it was 20 years ago.  The same could be said for the Academy of Ancient Music, which may have had a 100% turnover ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 03:39:53 AM
You have a point there.  The ORIGINAL English Concert was something to treasure.  Today English Concert was nothing like it was 20 years ago.  The same could be said for the Academy of Ancient Music, which may have had a 100% turnover ...

Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 13, 2009, 03:57:47 AM
Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

Sometimes even better, I think. BTW it is two different bands. The only common denominator is the violist Trevor Jones.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 04:05:12 AM
Sometimes even better, I think. BTW it is two different bands. The only common denominator is the violist Trevor Jones.

We must bow to you, premont, when it comes to the discographies of these Bach pieces.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2009, 10:50:19 AM
Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

They didn't sound perfect when I saw them doing the Brandenburgs in March.  In fact, they sounded out of tune and out of sync for the first movement of the Concerto No. 1.  It was sooo bad, I expected Egarr to stop the music and start over.  Second movement was a slight improvement but they didn't start actually making coherent music until the next piece which was strangely, No. 6, then followed by No.2.  Second half of the concert was much better (5,3,4). 

Egarr had some sort of agenda with the ordering -- all treble, all bass, numerology, instrumentation, etc.  He did some talks, but the numerology connection was far from convincing, as was his tale about German brothers, princes no less, wandering around and getting killed -- very Grimm.  I'm still not sure how it related to the music.  It was a bit hard to understand him as he doesn't project his voice that well, and didn't have a microphone.



Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 12:22:38 PM

Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 

Hmm - that is the first piece of negative reportage coming my way about their tour in North America; reading the Amazon review and concert reviews has given me impressions of quite the opposite: an ear-opener, sensational etc.  Accidentally, many of these positive reviews are from midwest and California.   Perhaps you are right that their lacklustre performance in NY was the consequence of a jet lag.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 13, 2009, 04:34:51 PM
Not sure about how valid these comparisons are - the ensemble in the Egarr/AAM Brandenburg sounds perfect when compared to the one in Hogwood/AAM Brandenburg. 

But how many recordings have Egarr made with the AAM so far?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 13, 2009, 05:08:25 PM
They didn't sound perfect when I saw them doing the Brandenburgs in March.  In fact, they sounded out of tune and out of sync for the first movement of the Concerto No. 1.  It was sooo bad, I expected Egarr to stop the music and start over.  Second movement was a slight improvement but they didn't start actually making coherent music until the next piece which was strangely, No. 6, then followed by No.2.  Second half of the concert was much better (5,3,4). 

Egarr had some sort of agenda with the ordering -- all treble, all bass, numerology, instrumentation, etc.  He did some talks, but the numerology connection was far from convincing, as was his tale about German brothers, princes no less, wandering around and getting killed -- very Grimm.  I'm still not sure how it related to the music.  It was a bit hard to understand him as he doesn't project his voice that well, and didn't have a microphone.



Perhaps he was jet lagged, or was coming down with a cold. 



I would not be singing praises of the reorganized AAM this fast.  Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good? While I generally like Richard Egarr and have a few of his recordings, it will take him considerably longer time to bring the current AAM back to its former glory ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on April 13, 2009, 05:55:34 PM
But how many recordings have Egarr made with the AAM so far?

I believe the number is 3. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 13, 2009, 06:12:09 PM
I believe the number is 3. 

I would have to wait until they have made at least a dozen of solid recordings before I would declare the AAM is back.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2009, 06:37:06 PM
Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good?

Yes if we are talking about them as an ensemble, not as a bunch of "outstanding" soloists.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2009, 07:19:25 AM
I would not be singing praises of the reorganized AAM this fast.  Former violinists like Monica Huggett and Catherine Macintosh were both outstanding with the original AAM under Hogwood.  Are their current replacements every bit as good? While I generally like Richard Egarr and have a few of his recordings, it will take him considerably longer time to bring the current AAM back to its former glory ...

Yes if we are talking about them as an ensemble, not as a bunch of "outstanding" soloists.

Sorry, but the worst thing about the performance in Zankel Hall was the fact that when they started they weren't "ensemble."  The horns were in and out of tune, the violins were out of sync, and Egarr started shaking his head around like someone with a bizarre form of palsy in order to afford some musical direction.  Bach's music, which is the most structured of all had no discernible structure.  Themes fought for dominance, with none clearly the winner.  I think the first thing Egarr needs to do is get a new harpsichordist so that he can keep everyone together when performing live.  His style of either furnishing no continuo while leading them, or no direction when playing except for his jerking head which was largely unobserved (or unseen) by most of the musicians, doesn't work in concert.  I know that there are some musicians who can lead from the keyboard, but Egarr has not yet developed that ability.  I also imagine that in order to lead from the keyboard as Suzuki does, you need an ensemble that runs like a clock, needing only the fewest and most subtle cues.  The AAM was not like that when I saw them.  As I never saw the group under Hogwood or Standage, I have no way to judge whether they have declined or whether this is just the way they have always been.  Unfortunately, recordings can not tell you how a group actually performs in live concert conditions, there are too many do-overs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2009, 08:01:59 AM
As a follow up to this, I have to mention that a few weeks later I saw the English Concert in the same hall.  They were superb.  Their director, Harry Bicket, also conducting from the harpsichord, kept them in line. The soloist, counter tenor David Daniels was incredible in a program of Bach and Händel. 

Btw, the AAM performs in street clothing with some color guidelines, but far from the fancy dress of other groups.  They looked like a group of talented amateurs doing a weekend concert for their church group. The EC, in contrast performs in white tie and tails, which I at first found off-putting.  As they played I realized that their "uniform" dress reflected a performing discipline that had been lacking in the AAM.  They played with military precision and passion, whereas the AAM whether passionate or not, seemed merely casual.  Whatever the reasons, the performance I saw reflected a good group but far from a great one.  Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2009, 10:31:18 AM
Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.

That's different from the impression I got from listening to the AAM's new recording of Brandenburg.   Egarr usually prefers more relaxed tempi (but not inflexibly slow) and honestly I am more forgiving of those things than you apparently are.  To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

NY Times Review (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/arts/music/25anci.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/K/Kozinn,%20Allan)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 14, 2009, 11:32:36 AM
To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

I can confirm this. The low pitch and the "soft" approach as well as the OPPP results in a kind of intimacy which works in strong contrast to the more usual agressive HIP style (Fasolis, Musica Florea, Il Giardino -to name some). And the soloists are generally first rate, not the least the corno- and tromba-soloists. The only soloist, who is conspicuously below par, is Egarr himself in concerto no. 5, more precisely in his totally unstructured rendering of the solo cadenza in the first movement, a point zero in an otherwise interesting and rewarding interpretation of these works.

So we have got this fine recording from this ensemble, and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 14, 2009, 12:35:10 PM
... and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.

I disagree, Premont.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don’t see, for example, the advantages of the “military precision and passion” and the "uniforms" in music  ;D, but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 14, 2009, 04:11:18 PM
Unfortunately, recordings can not tell you how a group actually performs in live concert conditions, there are too many do-overs.

Exactly.  A screwed-up recording session can be redone.  A live performance at a given venue is a one-shot event. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 14, 2009, 04:59:42 PM

Btw, the AAM performs in street clothing with some color guidelines, but far from the fancy dress of other groups.  They looked like a group of talented amateurs doing a weekend concert for their church group. The EC, in contrast performs in white tie and tails, which I at first found off-putting.  As they played I realized that their "uniform" dress reflected a performing discipline that had been lacking in the AAM.  They played with military precision and passion, whereas the AAM whether passionate or not, seemed merely casual.  Whatever the reasons, the performance I saw reflected a good group but far from a great one.  Just as Egarr's Goldbergs are interesting but not in the top tier, I found the AAM interesting not not great.  Perhaps on a different night they might have been great, but when you have paid a pretty price to sit in the hall, it's more than disappointing to find that a group is not consistently on a high level.
 

I think the AAM members dressing casual may be a reflection of the prevalent dress code over the past 10-15 years.  When I attended concerts at Carnegie Hall in the mid 80's, I never saw any man without at least a jacket and many with ties.  Within the past ten years, I have rarely seen people dressing "formal" at either Carnegie or Avery Fisher.  Call it a different era, when the AAM performed under Hogwood, its members were probably all formally dressed ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2009, 09:21:40 AM
That's different from the impression I got from listening to the AAM's new recording of Brandenburg.   Egarr usually prefers more relaxed tempi (but not inflexibly slow) and honestly I am more forgiving of those things than you apparently are.  To me their Brandenburg is more than interesting as performances: the soloist formation shows no sloppiness to my ears but gives a superb clarity and a sense of intimacy which I like in this music.  I do encourage all to try out the recording - their ensemble there is hardly disappointing.

NY Times Review (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/arts/music/25anci.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/K/Kozinn,%20Allan)

First I would like to say that it is not the slower tempos to which I took exception, nor the lower pitch tuning.  It is the complete absence of rhythmic sense: the concertos just amble along like a lady with a parasol who wanders hither and yon, hurrying to admire a butterfly, or then stopping to smell a flower without any sense of purpose.  It's a pretty picture, but bland.  Yes there's the delicately twirled parasol (aka theorbo) but that's not enough to keep up the excitement, and these concertos should be breathtakingly exciting works. 

Btw the Times review does allude to the problems of the live performance, although I think the critic was extremely soft on the AAM.  This is a problem with the NY Times music critics in general nowadays: they never give a bad review to anything anymore, no matter how rotten the performance. 

I can confirm this. The low pitch and the "soft" approach as well as the OPPP results in a kind of intimacy which works in strong contrast to the more usual agressive HIP style (Fasolis, Musica Florea, Il Giardino -to name some). And the soloists are generally first rate, not the least the corno- and tromba-soloists. The only soloist, who is conspicuously below par, is Egarr himself in concerto no. 5, more precisely in his totally unstructured rendering of the solo cadenza in the first movement, a point zero in an otherwise interesting and rewarding interpretation of these works.

So we have got this fine recording from this ensemble, and nothing could be more uninteresting than how these musicians may happen to perform these works on some occational indisposed day in the US. Everybody knows that the performances of every musician differ from day to day, depending on indefinable circumstances.

First, this is not intimate music.  It's music composed for a ducal court, which in Weimar or Brandenburg was a formal, if rustic setting.  The most intimate performance of these works was probably at the Cafe Zimmermann, which was a masculine hang-out.  I'll bet performances there had to fight the noise, and got the feet stamping.  Bach was someone with earthy tastes -- cabbages and radishes indeed!  Egarr has prettified these concertos and feminized them to a degree that I for one didn't care for.

It's all very well to say that it doesn't matter what a group is capable of, or not capable of in live performance on a given day so long as the recording is excellent, but that devalues the craft of musicianship.  A great ensemble is great live.  Period.  If it cannot rise to certain performance standards when performing in concert, then they are no better than Milli Vanilli or Joyce Hatto.  We know all of the studio wizardry that can be added in post-production to create a great recording.  In Classical Music this can never be an acceptable alternative to excellent musicianship.  I heard a sloppy, mediocre ensemble that has mysteriously produced a "great" recording.  I'm not buying it.  Let someone else keep them in business.

As to Mr. Egarr's harpsichord, I suggested that he get another harpsichordist.  He produced either a lot of head shaking and overly intrusive continuo or hand waving and no continuo.  As for his solo in the 5th: well, I agree he is not one of the great harpsichordists of his generation, as he demonstrated with his Goldbergs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 15, 2009, 09:23:22 AM
I disagree, Premont.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don’t see, for example, the advantages of the “military precision and passion” and the "uniforms" in music  ;D, but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.

Mars and Venus are always important to music.  At least for me during the Brandenburgs.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 01:18:06 PM
First, this is not intimate music.  It's music composed for a ducal court, which in Weimar or Brandenburg was a formal, if rustic setting. 

I think you are wrong. Except perhaps Concerto no.1, this is intimate music, intended to be played by a small group of musicians in a rather small room. Egarr´s recording stress this intimacy, and adds some interesting perspectives to the music, I think.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 01:24:32 PM
I disagree, Premont.
You are certainly welcome.

Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording. I don’t see, for example, the advantages of the “military precision and passion” and the "uniforms" in music  ;D, but Bunny certainly writes a detailed description of the moment.

I disagree, Antoine. I think Bunny implicit uses the unsuccessful concert event to detract from the recording.


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on April 17, 2009, 02:36:23 PM
As to Mr. Egarr's harpsichord, I suggested that he get another harpsichordist.  He produced either a lot of head shaking and overly intrusive continuo or hand waving and no continuo.  As for his solo in the 5th: well, I agree he is not one of the great harpsichordists of his generation, as he demonstrated with his Goldbergs.

I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 17, 2009, 06:49:41 PM
I think you are wrong. Except perhaps Concerto no.1, this is intimate music, intended to be played by a small group of musicians in a rather small room. Egarr´s recording stress this intimacy, and adds some interesting perspectives to the music, I think.

How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.  Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.  I cannot believe that Bach did not envision its use as part of the court rituals.  That is a far cry from truly intimate works such as his sonatas for violin and keyboard, suites for solo cello, or Goldberg Variations which are true chamber works in their scale. 

In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 17, 2009, 06:54:31 PM
How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.  Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.  I cannot believe that Bach did not envision its use as part of the court rituals.  That is a far cry from truly intimate works such as his sonatas for violin and keyboard, suites for solo cello, or Goldberg Variations which are true chamber works in their scale. 

You are correct.  While Brandenburg Concertos were probably not intended for very large concert hall, they also are not meant to be performed in venue which is appropriate for chamber music either ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 17, 2009, 06:58:26 PM
I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.

I haven't felt the need to buy his WTC because I didn't care for his Goldbergs, nor did I find his cd "Per Cembalo Solo" in the top tier.  However, my suggestion that he get another harpsichordist really has to do with his difficulties multitasking in performance: he had problems directing the ensemble while playing continuo.  I got to see the Richard Egarr bobble head doll that night, and it was not pretty.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 17, 2009, 07:04:42 PM
I haven't felt the need to buy his WTC because I didn't care for his Goldbergs, nor did I find his cd "Per Cembalo Solo" in the top tier.  However, my suggestion that he get another harpsichordist really has to do with his difficulties multitasking in performance: he had problems directing the ensemble while playing continuo.  I got to see the Richard Egarr bobble head doll that night, and it was not pretty.

Are you of the opinion that Richard Egarr may be a better harpsichordist than either Trevor Pinnock or Christopher Hogwood, he just somehow does not measure up to Pinnock or Hogwood in terms of his ability for multi-tasking?  Both Pinnock and Hogwood conducted from the harpsichord on a regular basis at the peak of their careers.  In fact, I saw Pinnock doing just that at a concert I attended over 20 years ago at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: 71 dB on April 17, 2009, 08:32:04 PM
For long I had only one recording of Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites:

Brandenburg Concertos Nos. 1-6 - Capella Istropolitana / Bohdan Warchal - Naxos 8.520007
Orchestral Suites Nos. 1-4 - Capella Istropolitana / Jaroslav Dvorák - Naxos 8.554043

I was into the suites much more. Recently I bought the 3 CD box of all these works played by The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock. The Brandenburg Concertos are awesome, but I don't warm up to Pinnock's suites. Somehow the "budget" Naxos disc remains my favorite with them.  :P
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 09:18:51 PM
You are correct.  While Brandenburg Concertos were probably not intended for very large concert hall, they also are not meant to be performed in venue which is appropriate for chamber music either ...

"Chamber music" is the key term here - how it is defined seems to vary in context, and mentioning only the sonatas etc. for the genre is radical to me.  If b-minor mass was intended to be sung with 2 voices per part, I don't see why the Brandenburgs, even as background to court proceedings, couldn't have been performed with one musician per part.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 09:31:31 PM
In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.

What about the remaining parts?  That some works were not conceived with "intimate" ideas does not mean they were never performed in "intimate" settings.  The prelude to the 3rd partita for solo vn was reworked from a cantata symphony.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 10:39:21 PM
Why is supremely uninteresting to comment a concert? Especially in this case, when the criticism is exclusively about one live performance –an essential aspect of the musical life- and it is not extended to the recording.

Well recordings (and their reviews) are the focus in this part of the forum, which is about "Great Recordings and Reviews."  I suppose there are other parts of the music room that better accommodate concert reviews?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 11:25:48 PM
How about the 2nd concerto?  Did you ever hear a trumpet in a small room?  Not very pleasant for anyone in the room including the trumpeter.

Yes if you think of a modern trumpet this is of course true. So much more reason to play upon baroque instruments and to play soft.

Certainly Bach's ensemble of "plusieurs instruments" was not the size of a Mahlerian orchestra, but the music itself is not intimate sounding.  It is formal music: music for a ducal court, and dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg.

I think the word "Concertos" in the title has mislead a lot of people to regard these works as symphonic music, and reminicences of this attitude are still present.

In fact, parts of the concertos were reworked from music used in the Cantatas, and they certainly were not "intimate" works.
This is not true. The only extant example is the first movement of Concerto no.3, and the reworking was the other way round, the Brandenburg movement being arranged for the Cantata, with the adding of a host of wind instruments and a complete ripieno string group. Some other examples in the same vein are some of Bach´s orchestral suites, which in their original Cöthen version were intimate music for a few strings, but later in Leipzig were rearranged with the adding of more wind instruments.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on April 18, 2009, 01:31:59 AM
I'm not quite ready to dismiss Egarr as a performer of Bach's solo keyboard works.  Like Bunny, I don't care much for his Goldbergs, but he does a much better job with the WTC I where I find his rhythmic flexibility in the form of hesitiatons and staggering of musical lines compelling.

Exactly where I find him (and even Parmentier) contrieved, in contrast to e.g. Leonhardt and Wilson.

Each to his own.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2009, 03:31:50 PM

I disagree, Antoine. I think Bunny implicit uses the unsuccessful concert event to detract from the recording.


I end up agreeing with you, Premont. I was too much naïve.

Bunny deceived me.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 22, 2009, 07:17:18 AM

Yes if you think of a modern trumpet this is of course true. So much more reason to play upon baroque instruments and to play soft.
 
I think the word "Concertos" in the title has mislead a lot of people to regard these works as symphonic music, and reminicences of this attitude are still present.
This is not true. The only extant example is the first movement of Concerto no.3, and the reworking was the other way round, the Brandenburg movement being arranged for the Cantata, with the adding of a host of wind instruments and a complete ripieno string group. Some other examples in the same vein are some of Bach´s orchestral suites, which in their original Cöthen version were intimate music for a few strings, but later in Leipzig were rearranged with the adding of more wind instruments.

As I don't have my laptop available, and must use my iPod to respond, please excuse poor spelling and punctuation!

I have been listening to the 2nd Concerto as done by Pinnock & EC; I Barocchisti; Concerto Italiano; and last by Cafe Zimmermann on their most recent album Concerts avec Plusieurs Instruments Vol 4. The trumpet was in Bach's time an instrument used on the battlefield to communicate various troop movements, as it continued to be used into the early 20th century. The idea that the trumpet should be even thought of as a Chamber instrument is ludicrous. Even if one supposes that the volume, without muting, can be modulated to a level comfortable in a small chamber which I sincerely doubt, the trumpet was used off the battlefield mostly for formal processionals (outdoors and in churches), fanfares, etc. rather than as an instrument for dancing or even as for background for dining. Tafelmusik was usually scored for groups of string instruments, or woodwinds, or reeds rather than brass instruments.

I'm very sorry, but merely assigning one player per part cannot convince me that Bach conceived of these concertos as intimately scaled works. The very number of instruments used suggests otherwise, except perhaps the 6th concerto which is scored for viols da gamba, an instrument of less native volume than their cousins in the violon family. Even then, one must remember that the greatest viol player was Marin Marais and he was situated at the court of Louis XIV, a setting that was formal even at it's most intimate and personal levels.

No, these concertos are many things, but they should never be thought of as small in scale.
   
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 22, 2009, 07:41:45 AM
BTW, I don't think of them as symphonic at all.  Thereis more range in Baroque music than chamber and church. Is it so hard to envision music on a larger scale?  Clearly Music for the opera is the Baroque eqivalent of symphonic music if not the same exact thing.  Bach's concerti are similarly scaled for a larger hall than a chamber (the older word for bedroom even as cabinet was the original word for "office").  Egarr has transformed these works by scaling them down, and for me the result is problematic.  They are like a miniature representation, pretty but so pale in comparison to other performances such as Goebel's, Pinnock's, Alessandrini's, the Akademie fur alte Musik Berlin, and so many others. I have begun to think of them as the anti-Brandenburg Concertos as they remind me too much of performances of Bach's concerti by ensembles that are also scaled wrongly by being too large.

It has become very apparent to me that original instruments cannot guarntee excellence or even intelligence. They can only guarantee a particular sound.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: 71 dB on April 22, 2009, 09:25:47 AM
It has become very apparent to me that original instruments cannot guarntee excellence or even intelligence. They can only guarantee a particular sound.

This has always been clear to me.  0:)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 22, 2009, 03:23:22 PM

I disagree, Antoine. I think Bunny implicit uses the unsuccessful concert event to detract from the recording.



I have little or nothing to say about the recording.  I don't have it, and see no need to purchase it.  What I have to say is about the live performance of the Brandenburgs by Egarr on that particular night, and about the specific nature of the works.  I don't really care very much about the recording because the live performance was indifferent at best: What I heard was far from impressive.  I will allow that the recording may be very successful, however, in concert the transformation of grand works into confectionary miniatures didn't work for me on any level. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 03:32:18 PM
I have little or nothing to say about the recording.  I don't have it, and see no need to purchase it.  What I have to say is about the live performance of the Brandenburgs by Egarr on that particular night, and about the specific nature of the works.  I don't really care very much about the recording because the live performance was indifferent at best: What I heard was far from impressive.  I will allow that the recording may be very successful, however, in concert the transformation of grand works into confectionary miniatures didn't work for me on any level. 

I continue to feel that it is still too early to pass any judgment on Egarr with regard to his success with the AAM at this point.  To date, he has had only a tiny fraction of the tenure Hogwood had with the ensemble.  Moreover, are the current members of the AAM every bit as good as the one Hogwood was conducting?  To be sure, an ensemble/conductor that are highly successful in recordings cannot be a total flop in live performance.  It makes more sense to debate in five years as to whether Egarr's association with the AAM has been a success story.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on April 26, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
I continue to feel that it is still too early to pass any judgment on Egarr with regard to his success with the AAM at this point.  To date, he has had only a tiny fraction of the tenure Hogwood had with the ensemble.  Moreover, are the current members of the AAM every bit as good as the one Hogwood was conducting?  To be sure, an ensemble/conductor that are highly successful in recordings cannot be a total flop in live performance.  It makes more sense to debate in five years as to whether Egarr's association with the AAM has been a success story.

You have confused me with this post.  I don't really understand why you feel that anyone has to pass judgement on Egarr and the AAM now or in 5 years.  I have only said that I attended a concert which was not a top performance.  I'm not advocating that you relegate him to the dust heap, merely a few of his recordings, including his Goldbergs, which I own.  I have nothing to say about how good or bad his Brandenburg recording is because I haven't heard it.  I also have nothing to say about the talents of the present ensemble, although I doubt that Egarr is as good a harpsichordist as either Hogwood or Rousset.  I will also say that if one has ever seen Les Talens Lyriques in concert, they will certainly agree that Rousset has gathered a first rate ensemble. 

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying one of Hogwood's excellent Martinu recordings that he has made with Bohuslav Matousek and Czech Philharmonic Orchestra.


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on July 09, 2009, 10:31:00 PM
New interesting new issue! :)

(http://www.plectra.org/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/c6dcf76f5ef5c7e6dc9bf89a5e1df828.jpg)

Sample HERE. (http://www.plectra.org/index.php?option=com_mp3player&Itemid=43) Further details HERE. (http://www.plectra.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on August 24, 2009, 02:01:46 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bach_logo_halfsize.png)
CD Pick of the Week: Bach’s Orchestral Suites Reconstructed (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=630)


Monica Hugget is one of the baroque music scene’s most cherished pioneer-veterans.
Co-founder of the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra with Ton Koopman and founding member
of the Academy of Ancient Music, she also worked with Trevor Pinnock and his English
Concert and she has led Toronto-based Tafelmusik. She is currently the head of the
Portland Baroque Orchestra, the Ireland Baroque Orchestra and of course the Ensemble
Sonnerie which she founded, then still a Trio, in 1982.

When someone like Monica Huggett brings out a recording of Bach’s Orchestral Suites
it’s a notable event, not the least because new and exciting recordings of the Suites
—or Concert-Ouvertures—are rather more scarce than new recordings of the Brandenburg-
or Keyboard Concertos. It’s also notable because Mme. Huggett goes her own ways in
reconstructing those three suites that we only have in transcriptions from now-lost-
originals...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on August 25, 2009, 04:10:48 PM
One of my most prized recordings is a live concert held in the mid 80's at the Coolidge Auditorium at the Library of Congress featuring an all-Bach program performed by the Academy of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble,
which I taped off the air from my local NPR station.  Principal performers in that concert included:

Simon Standage, Lisa Beznosiuk, Catherine MacKintosh, Monica Huggett, Trevor Jones and Christopher Hogwood.

What a concert and I wish I were there.  I digitized that open-reel tape early this year so I can more easily access the music.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 25, 2009, 01:21:32 AM
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos, Orchestral Suites
Bach Collegium Japan
Masaaki Suzuki (conductor)
3 SACDs
Bis

Bach Collegium Japan was first noticed internationally for undertaking the huge project of recording the complete church cantatas of J. S. Bach. Although the ensemble's discography consists of predominately vocal works, the participating instrumentalists have attracted acclaim ever since the outset. On the present offering, it is Bach's two great sets of orchestral works that form the programme and the choir of the BCJ is silent. Bach Collegium Japan and Masaaki Suzuki first recorded the Brandenburg Concertos in 2000, but now return to these great works. The new recording took place in the recently completed MUZA Kawasaki Hall, a venue that is highly suitable to an approach focussing on the chamber music qualities of this music. In four of the concertos Masaaki Suzuki has chosen to replace the traditional cello with the violoncello da spalla - a smaller instrument played horizontally on the shoulder or held against the breast. The instrument has already featured in the BCJ Cantata series, and opens for new possibilities in timbre, for instance in Concerto No. 6, where the violoncello da spalla blends particularly well with the two solo violas and the viola da gambas. Making a new recording also provided the opportunity to record these in many ways multidimensional works in 5.0 Surround Sound, releasing them as hybrid SACDs. This is also the format of the included recordings of the Orchestral Suites, originally released in 2005 to great and universal acclaim. The German website klassik.com called the 2-CD set 'incredibly perfect Bach!' and named it one of the reference recordings of these oft-recorded works, while the Financial Times (UK) listed it as one of the outstanding classical discs of 2005, remarking that 'Suzuki's traversal of the Bach orchestral suites combine scholarship and style without compromising the music's expressiveness.' In the Brandenburg Concertos and the Suites, Bach explored an Italian and a French genre respectively, and in his inimitable way transcended the boundaries of both. This attractive box at a very advantageous price combines both sets performed by one of the leading Baroque ensembles in high fidelity recordings - not to be missed! Please note: The music on this Hybrid Super Audio CD can be played back in Stereo (CD and SACD) as well as in 5.0 Surround sound (SACD).

(From the ArkivMusic website)

 :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on September 25, 2009, 03:39:57 AM
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos, Orchestral Suites
Bach Collegium Japan
Masaaki Suzuki (conductor)
3 SACDs
Bis

And Gardiner is bringing out his first recording of the Brandenburg Concertos next month. What a embarrassment of riches, indeed.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on September 25, 2009, 05:17:13 AM
And Gardiner is bringing out his first recording of the Brandenburg Concertos next month.

!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on September 25, 2009, 05:47:24 AM
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos, Orchestral Suites
Bach Collegium Japan
Masaaki Suzuki (conductor)
3 SACDs
Bis

Bach Collegium Japan and Masaaki Suzuki first recorded the Brandenburg Concertos in 2000, but now return to these great works. The new recording took place in the recently completed MUZA Kawasaki Hall,

Now I am confused, because on JPCs website:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/6135008

the recording dates are referred to as 2000 and 2004. Is this really a new recording of the Brandenburgs?
The earlier released recording of the Brandenburgs was made in the year 2000 and ditto of the suites 2004.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 25, 2009, 06:10:46 AM
Now I am confused, because on JPCs website:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/6135008

the recording dates are referred to as 2000 and 2004. Is this really a new recording of the Brandenburgs?
The earlier released recording of the Brandenburgs was made in the year 2000 and ditto of the suites 2004.

Hi, Premont.

I suppose JPC is wrong this time.

It’s a new recording of the Brandenburgs. Here there is a link to the Badiarov’s blog; he is, as you know, the father of these reconstructed violoncellos da spalla:

http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot.com/2009/09/cello-da-spalla-in-brandenburg.html


P.S.: I forgot this link:

http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot.com/2008/06/violoncello-da-spalla-bach-collegium.html
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on September 25, 2009, 11:50:33 AM

It’s a new recording of the Brandenburgs. Here there is a link to the Badiarov’s blog; he is, as you know, the father of these reconstructed violoncellos da spalla:


Thanks Antoine, I am convinced.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Franco on October 01, 2009, 10:36:30 AM
Quote
original instruments cannot guarntee excellence or even intelligence. They can only guarantee a particular sound.

And the sound of the recorder bothers me in the Brandenburg Concertos.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on October 16, 2009, 04:25:42 PM
Same question I just posed re Dvorak's Cello Concerto. Is there any consensus of what are the best recordings of the Brandenberg Concertos? I have not posted in quite some time but am still very interested in classical music and listen to the local classical station all the time.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on October 16, 2009, 11:52:15 PM
Same question I just posed re Dvorak's Cello Concerto. Is there any consensus of what are the best recordings of the Brandenberg Concertos? I have not posted in quite some time but am still very interested in classical music and listen to the local classical station all the time.

Brandenburg, - not Brandenberg.

There is a host of different recordings (I know ca. 150), and it is more about how you want these works to be played than about which one is the "best", because there is no "best" recording - only recordings preferred by by different listeners.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: 71 dB on October 17, 2009, 12:23:55 AM
The English Concert/Trevor Pinnock on Archiv.  0:)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on October 17, 2009, 06:01:41 AM
I have over 20 versions of the Brandenburg Concertos between CD's and LP's.  The version by the English Concert and Trevor Pinnock is one of my top choices.  I also like the version by the Academy of St Martin and Neville Marriner from 1980.  While this latter version is non-HIP, the all-star cast soloists put on some very memorable performance ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2009, 08:22:19 AM
One of the better ones I heard caught me by surprise and just floored me on the radio, and I've never heard them play before.  It's the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra, and looking it up is a bargain--

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1-4/dp/B00000IOM5 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1-4/dp/B00000IOM5)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suite/dp/B00000IOM6 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suite/dp/B00000IOM6)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411JB65HSFL.jpg)

I think they really sizzle here, capturing both the vitality of the works and the counterpoint between the voices.  Highly rec'd. 8)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on October 17, 2009, 08:29:08 AM
One of the better ones I heard caught me by surprise and just floored me on the radio, and I've never heard them play before.  It's the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra, and looking it up is a bargain--

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1-4/dp/B00000IOM5 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1-4/dp/B00000IOM5)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suite/dp/B00000IOM6 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suite/dp/B00000IOM6)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411JB65HSFL.jpg)

I think they really sizzle here, capturing both the vitality of the works and the counterpoint between the voices.  Highly rec'd. 8)

I attended the complete Brandenburg Concertos performed by Gerarld Schwartz and the St Luke Chamber Orchestra on a New Year's Eve years ago in NY.  It was a spirited performance for the occasion.  All in all, I generally do not turn to any American ensembles for Brandenburg Concertos, as this is no Aaron Copland music.  Most average European ensembles are superior to what the US has to offer.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 09:49:28 AM
I attended the complete Brandenburg Concertos performed by Gerarld Schwartz and the St Luke Chamber Orchestra on a New Year's Eve years ago in NY.  It was a spirited performance for the occasion.  All in all, I generally do not turn to any American ensembles for Brandenburg Concertos, as this is no Aaron Copland music.  Most average European ensembles are superior to what the US has to offer.

Curious as all hell what that has to do with the disk that DavidW posted... ???

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 76 Quartet in d for Strings Op 76 #2 4th mvmt - Finale
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on October 17, 2009, 10:05:42 AM
Curious as all hell what that has to do with the disk that DavidW posted... ???

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 76 Quartet in d for Strings Op 76 #2 4th mvmt - Finale

The concert I attended and the CD DavidW posted were both conducted by Gerald Schwartz. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 10:38:08 AM
The concert I attended and the CD DavidW posted were both conducted by Gerald Schwartz. 

Ah, I see. :)

8)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 01, 2009, 09:39:46 AM
This 3-CD box set is slightly weird. It includes a new recording of the Brandenburgs recorded the last year at the MUZA Kawasaki Symphony Hall (Japan), joined with a reissue of the Orchestral Suites from 2003. The traditional cello part is replaced in four of the concertos (concertos 2, 3, 4 & 6) with violoncellos da spalla played by three well-known baroque violinists: Ryo Terakado, François Fernandez & Dmitry Badiarov (who is the builder of these violoncellos da spalla). Additionally, it is added a new second movement to the 3rd Concerto (an arrangement of the 2nd movement of Concerto for Three Harpsichords, BWV 1064).

I have just listened to three times the first disc and two times the second one. Therefore, my opinions are in construction; but it is eye-catching the sobriety and calm way adopted here. These are not performances intended to surprise with mad tempi or virtuosistic approaches (Il Giardino Armonico, Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, I Barocchisti). Here all seems made with good taste, well blended textures and careful deliberation, which probably will seem a little boring for some people.

Do I read between your lines, that Suzuki´s interpretation is a bit aristocratic in contrast to the more vulgar renderings of Fasolis et alii?

Yes, it is right in some sense: as when you do the same thing that other people, but with less effort, without sweat: with a certain kind of elegance. IMO this is very suitable for these concertos intended to the Court.

What they certainly were. I think (well we can not know for sure) the new Suzuki set is outstanding and the style is spot on.

And I very much worship the less bass-heavy character especially of concertos no. 3 and 6.

And the inserted movement in concerto no. 3 is a most felicious choice IMO and it is most convincingly executed.

Just for the record.

 :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on November 01, 2009, 10:16:54 AM
The following CD has to be one of the top recent releases of the Bach Orchestral Suites.  I bought the CD a few weeks ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DLBTP56TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 01, 2009, 11:19:56 AM
The following CD has to be one of the top recent releases of the Bach Orchestral Suites.  I bought the CD a few weeks ago ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DLBTP56TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, it is in a litteral sense unusually good, even if constituting a theoretical and not exactly authenticised version of these works, but what the ... , nor was Siegbert Rampes version on MDG.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on November 05, 2009, 02:07:02 PM
i Just stumbed on this very curious review of the new BIS/Suzuki set of Bach orchestral music:

"J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Album: J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Label: Bis
Source: AMG
Listening to this irresistibly joyful and magnificently musical set of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites, one is immediately struck by two thoughts. First, that Masaaki Suzuki and the Bach Collegium Japan have been wasting their time concentrating on Bach's dour cantatas, and second, that Bach himself was wasting his time writing his melancholy church music when he could have been composing infinitely more cheerful secular music. While Suzuki and his crew have turned in superlatively performed, if spectacularly severe recording of the cantatas, they sound just as virtuosic and vastly more comfortable here. Their performances are just as musical; from top to bottom, the Bach Collegium Japan is an outstanding period instrument chamber orchestra. Their sound is rich but bright, their ensemble tight but relaxed, and their intonation virtually flawless. One can point out any number of felicities -- Shigeharu Yamaoka's warm-toned flute in the Second Brandenburg, Natsumi Wakamatsu's keen-edged violin in the Fourth Brandenburg, and Masaaki Suzuki's airborne harpsichord in the Fifth Brandenburg. Recorded in Bis' characteristically vivid super audio digital sound, this three disc set begs to be heard by anyone who likes the works. ~ James Leonard, All Music Guide"

All "boldings" are mine. This is some of the most peculiar Bach reviewing I've seen, and makes me question some aspects of the reviewers mental state. Any views?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 04:40:52 PM
And Gardiner is bringing out his first recording of the Brandenburg Concertos next month. What a embarrassment of riches, indeed.


Brandenburg Concertos / Gardiner project - Part 1

                  http://www.youtube.com/v/FYWB4R25Gs8



Brandenburg Concertos / Gardiner project - Part 2

                 http://www.youtube.com/v/8hLyNF57YKo



Brandenburg Concertos / Gardiner project - Part 3

                http://www.youtube.com/v/mkwFvAkD1BU



 :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on November 15, 2009, 09:03:56 PM
Thanks for posting those, Antoine. Jazzy HIP Bach... that arouses my interest. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on November 15, 2009, 09:14:14 PM
Thanks for posting those, Antoine. Jazzy HIP Bach... that arouses my interest. :)

I am taking a wait-and-see on the Gardiner's set.  I may consider getting the DVD if one is available.  After all, I already have 20+ versions of Brandenburg Concertos and it is not clear if Gardiner with his English Baroque Soloists can do better than some of my top selections ... 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 16, 2009, 03:35:15 AM
Thanks for posting those, Antoine. Jazzy HIP Bach... that arouses my interest. :)

My pleasure, Navneeth.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 16, 2009, 03:58:27 AM
wasting their time concentrating on Bach's dour cantatas, and second, that Bach himself was wasting his time writing his melancholy church music when he could have been composing infinitely more cheerful secular music.  ~ James Leonard, All Music Guide"

All "boldings" are mine. This is some of the most peculiar Bach reviewing I've seen, and makes me question some aspects of the reviewers mental state. Any views?

While I don't think Mr. Leonard is insane, the review, as written, suggests that he lacks some historical knowledge of the circumstances in which JSB lived.

Bach "wasted his time" writing church music because that's what his employer, the church, wanted him to do. That's what composers did in those days - they wrote what the boss ordered.

Let's just be glad that JSB did manage to spend a few years at the Court in Cöthen, where he had the chance to produce that secular music we enjoy today.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on November 16, 2009, 06:44:36 AM
i Just stumbed on this very curious review of the new BIS/Suzuki set of Bach orchestral music:

"J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Album: J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Label: Bis
Source: AMG
Listening to this irresistibly joyful and magnificently musical set of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites, one is immediately struck by two thoughts. First, that Masaaki Suzuki and the Bach Collegium Japan have been wasting their time concentrating on Bach's dour cantatas, and second, that Bach himself was wasting his time writing his melancholy church music when he could have been composing infinitely more cheerful secular music. While Suzuki and his crew have turned in superlatively performed, if spectacularly severe recording of the cantatas, they sound just as virtuosic and vastly more comfortable here. Their performances are just as musical; from top to bottom, the Bach Collegium Japan is an outstanding period instrument chamber orchestra. Their sound is rich but bright, their ensemble tight but relaxed, and their intonation virtually flawless. One can point out any number of felicities -- Shigeharu Yamaoka's warm-toned flute in the Second Brandenburg, Natsumi Wakamatsu's keen-edged violin in the Fourth Brandenburg, and Masaaki Suzuki's airborne harpsichord in the Fifth Brandenburg. Recorded in Bis' characteristically vivid super audio digital sound, this three disc set begs to be heard by anyone who likes the works. ~ James Leonard, All Music Guide"

All "boldings" are mine. This is some of the most peculiar Bach reviewing I've seen, and makes me question some aspects of the reviewers mental state. Any views?

Oh, I think that Leonard just wanted to shock his readers.  However, I do take exception to his using Bach's magnificent cantatas to acheive the shock.

Of course, it could simply be that Leonard is not really a strong Bach enthusiast.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 16, 2009, 07:23:31 AM
Of course, it could simply be that Leonard is not really a strong Bach enthusiast.

Seems so, but the fact remains, that Suzuli´s new Brandenburg set is outstanding.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Leo K. on December 03, 2009, 10:48:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41rxCmEglbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've been to concerts to hear Bach's solo Violin Concerti from Anne Akiko Meyers, and Nadja Solerno-Sonnenberg...and had recordings here and there...all amazing...especially live and it seems it would be very difficult to screw up these works, but a great violinist creates the illusion these works are effortless...and the disk above is no exception.  And lets not forget the atmospheric and wonderful string section of St. Martin in the Fields backing up Ms. Fischer on this recording.

Just hearing this CD for the first time tonight...yes, I'm squarely in the Bach mood here for whatever reason...perhaps a yearning for the colder Minnesotan winters that are only a illusion of a previous life now it seems...

I have a tendency to take Bach for granted and let him sit on my shelf here, and forget what power his music becomes unleashed if I just take the chance.  The solo violin concerti are two separate journeys through one universe, like two different lifetimes and how I could forget these works for a couple of years now leaves me puzzled, except perhaps the reality I didn't have the maturity to stay with them, and hopefully I'm a little more understanding to embrace them with more certainity.  Perhaps a year of graveyard shifts is the only thing that could've brought me back to all of Bach's violin concerti as presented here on this disk.

My first musical education was learning the violin from my Grandfather, so perhaps he's in there somewhere in these sounds as I listen again, back at his farm within a harsh Minnesotan winter, surrounded by Bach's Lutheran kin throughout the small farming communites where I traveled to visit my grandfather to learn violin.

Fischer plans her playing very straightforwardly, but her tone is luminous and her pacing effortless, a perfect combination for Bach's constructions here.  Bach only used strings for the accompaniments and the texture St. Martin in the Fields achieves here is the sound equivelant of Stradivari's varnish; velvety plush and light, not too dark, with just enough transparency to let the sun shine though on a cloudy fall morning.

A nice surprise was the Concerti for two violins in D minor, which I didn't realize I had heard before, perhaps in a Woody Allen film somewhere I just can't remember, but yet that too brings me back to my youth where I constantly watched Anne Hall while it snowed outside.

Yep, hard to separate memory and music, but thats why it's so enchanting too. ;)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2009, 03:08:37 AM

Yep, hard to separate memory and music, but thats why it's so enchanting too. ;)

That recalls me Plato's doctrine of recollection, where to know is to remember -to recall- what is already within one... "To know is to recall"... nice, no?  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on December 04, 2009, 03:37:44 AM
That recalls me Plato's doctrine of recollection, where to know is to remember -to recall- what is already within one... "To know is to recall"... nice, no?  :)

Well, yes, only Plato would think this applies to everything we learn. Meaning it's not quite as magical to reminisce, if that's all we do! ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2009, 04:06:15 AM
Well, yes, only Plato would think this applies to everything we learn. Meaning it's not quite as magical to reminisce, if that's all we do! ;)

Very magical indeed… because most of us just recall chairs and tables, material things or prosaic events; but it is also possible “to recall” the beauty, the goodness, our relation with God… For that reason sometimes I have thought that people as Bach, Haydn or Mozart, it is just people with more vivid memories.  :)   
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2009, 12:16:38 PM
Very magical indeed… because most of us just recall chairs and tables, material things or prosaic events; but it is also possible “to recall” the beauty, the goodness, our relation with God… For that reason sometimes I have thought that people as Bach, Haydn or Mozart, it is just people with more vivid memories.  :)

Amen!

 8)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on December 04, 2009, 06:07:45 PM
Very magical indeed… because most of us just recall chairs and tables, material things or prosaic events; but it is also possible “to recall” the beauty, the goodness, our relation with God… For that reason sometimes I have thought that people as Bach, Haydn or Mozart, it is just people with more vivid memories.  :)

I don't think Plato had that in mind, but it's certainly an interesting extension to the concept. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2009, 07:12:21 PM
I don't think Plato had that in mind, but it's certainly an interesting extension to the concept. :)
100% Plato my friend.

Plato: Meno, 80 d - 81 e

MENO: And how will you enquire, Socrates, into that which you do not know? What will you put forth as the subject of enquiry? And if you find what you want, how will you ever know that this is the thing which you did not know?
SOCRATES: I know, Meno, what you mean; but just see what a tiresome dispute you are introducing. You argue that a man cannot enquire either about that which he knows, or about that which he does not know; for if he knows, he has no need to enquire; and if not, he cannot; for he does not know the very subject about which he is to enquire.
MENO: Well, Socrates, and is not the argument sound?
SOCRATES: I think not.
MENO: Why not?
SOCRATES: I will tell you why: I have heard from certain wise men and women who spoke of things divine that—
MENO: What did they say?
SOCRATES: They spoke of a glorious truth, as I conceive.
MENO: What was it? and who were they?
SOCRATES: Some of them were priests and priestesses, who had studied how they might be able to give a reason of their profession: there have been poets also, who spoke of these things by inspiration, like Pindar, and many others who were inspired. And they say—mark, now, and see whether their words are true—they say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time has an end, which is termed dying, and at another time is born again, but is never destroyed. And the moral is, that a man ought to live always in perfect holiness. 'For in the ninth year Persephone sends the souls of those from whom she has received the penalty of ancient crime back again from beneath into the light of the sun above, and these are they who become noble kings and mighty men and great in wisdom and are called saintly heroes in after ages.' The soul, then, as being immortal, and having been born again many times, and having seen all things that exist, whether in this world or in the world below, has knowledge of them all; and it is no wonder that she should be able to call to remembrance all that she ever knew about virtue, and about everything; for as all nature is akin, and the soul has learned all things; there is no difficulty in her eliciting or as men say learning, out of a single recollection all the rest, if a man is strenuous and does not faint; for all enquiry and all learning is but recollection. And therefore we ought not to listen to this sophistical argument about the impossibility of enquiry: for it will make us idle; and is sweet only to the sluggard; but the other saying will make us active and inquisitive. In that confiding, I will gladly enquire with you into the nature of virtue.
MENO: Yes, Socrates; but what do you mean by saying that we do not learn, and that what we call learning is only a process of recollection? Can you teach me how this is?

 :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Renfield on December 04, 2009, 07:36:33 PM
100% Plato my friend.

I am well acquainted with Meno. :)

My comment regarded your concept about God.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2010, 06:02:43 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rnr9IAsoL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/01/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended.html


Reviewed, Not Necessarily Recommended: Scarlatti Sonatas & Bach Concertos
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/01/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended.html)
Quote
Here are more of Nimbus’ re-releases from the Music Masters catalogue. Those unearthing-efforts were warmly welcome when they offered Vladimir Feltsman’s 1991 Goldberg Variations which are spunky and thoroughly gratifying. Those efforts are also welcome when it comes to Feltsman’s recording of the Bach Keyboard Concertos—wholly affable and with liner notes by Tim Page. The same can’t quite be said for the John Browning Scarlatti Sonata collection that Nimbus helped to an extended, budget-priced life-cycle...[/url]


For DC-regionites:

Vladimir Feltsman will appear at the Music Center at Strathmore, courtesy of WPAS, on Friday, March 26, 2010 (8PM).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 02:31:11 PM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AVSA9871.jpg)
 
This is in my pre-order basket for April...........
Look at that all star line up:
 
-Jordi Savall
-Pierre Hantai
-Fabio Biondi
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 24, 2010, 03:18:51 PM
(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AVSA9871.jpg)
 
This is in my pre-order basket for April...........
Look at that all star line up:
 
-Jordi Savall
-Pierre Hantai
-Fabio Biondi

Yes, a beautiful set, dark and colourful, not the least Concerto no.6.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 24, 2010, 05:59:55 PM
This is in my pre-order basket for April...........
Look at that all star line up:
 
-Jordi Savall
-Pierre Hantai
-Fabio Biondi
That's a re-release, actually...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HDBA3DG4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenberg-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004TVFR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214541695&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenberg-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004TVFR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214541695&sr=1-1)

Of course, out of print now (par the course).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 06:26:56 PM
That's a re-release, actually...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HDBA3DG4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenberg-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004TVFR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214541695&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenberg-Concertos-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004TVFR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214541695&sr=1-1)

Of course, out of print now (par the course).

You are right.......
I actually have this already, but didn't realize that Biondi and Hantai both were in this group also, just saved me some money.
 
I though it was a new performance by Jordi Savall
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 24, 2010, 06:35:56 PM
I still remember how impressed I was with this all star lineup in the early 80's when these two singles were released.  This version of Brandenburg Concertos is still among my all-time favorites, even though I probably have most of the HIP versions in my collection as well.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411W034XB9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413P19KEEWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on March 24, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
I still remember how impressed I was with this all star lineup in the early 80's when these two singles were released.  This version of Brandenburg Concertos is still among my all-time favorites, even though I probably have most of the HIP versions in my collection as well.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411W034XB9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413P19KEEWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

That's currently available as part of a Philips "trio" set; filled out by the violin concertos and the orchestrral suites.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 24, 2010, 10:44:15 PM

You are right.......
I actually have this already, but didn't realize that Biondi and Hantai both were in this group also, just saved me some money.
 
I though it was a new performance by Jordi Savall

Jordi Savall somehow managed to have the right to reissue the recordings he made for Naïve/ Astrée on his own label, Alia Vox. He did the same with his recording of Monteverdi's Vespers.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2010, 05:25:53 AM
i Just stumbed on this very curious review of the new BIS/Suzuki set of Bach orchestral music:

"J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Album: J.S. Bach: Brandenburg Concertos; Orchestral Suites
Label: Bis
Source: AMG
Listening to this irresistibly joyful and magnificently musical set of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites, one is immediately struck by two thoughts. First, that Masaaki Suzuki and the Bach Collegium Japan have been wasting their time concentrating on Bach's dour cantatas, and second, that Bach himself was wasting his time writing his melancholy church music when he could have been composing infinitely more cheerful secular music.
[....]
All "boldings" are mine. This is some of the most peculiar Bach reviewing I've seen, and makes me question some aspects of the reviewers mental state. Any views?
I just stumbled on this, so apologies for my late reaction. I think that this review is utter bs (excusez; though the boldings are mine ;)). Bach's church music isn't more nor less 'melancholic' or 'cheerful' than his secular compositions. For instance: he did use a lot of his secular music again in his religious work. To Bach, all music was Soli Deo Gloria!

[....]
Bach "wasted his time" writing church music because that's what his employer, the church, wanted him to do. That's what composers did in those days - they wrote what the boss ordered. [....]
In Bach's case this is not entirely true. He deliberately resigned in Köthen and went to Leipzig, a.o. because he wanted to compose well-regulated church music himself. After years of pleading and struggling he found out that the church and city councils (who were in charge of the music in Leipzig) didn't want to support him in his ambitions. Bach's liturgical music production in Leipzig flagged and he more or less returned to instrumental/secular music again (with a few exceptions of course).
In opposition to mr. Leonard I would say: pity pity pity! ;D

Oh, I think that Leonard just wanted to shock his readers.  However, I do take exception to his using Bach's magnificent cantatas to acheive the shock.

Of course, it could simply be that Leonard is not really a strong Bach enthusiast.
Magnificent cantatas, indeed!
My guess is: Leonard is not really interested in neither Bach & his music nor church music in general, and he's placing the average stamps on all of these (which has been done over years .... and I'm afraid will be done for years to come) like melancholic, severe, dour, heavy and definitely not joyful. People like Leonard probably can not or even will not understand that religion can be a joyful experience to many of its believers. IMO, these people should listen more (and BETTER) and also check f.i. Bach's notations made in his own Calov-Bible. Check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calov_Bible

Even though I'm a convinced non-believer myself, I think it's necessary to take note of things like these, before even considering writing reviews about Bach's music at all.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2010, 06:58:40 AM
I just stumbled on this, so apologies for my late reaction....

Seconded on every last count. And as per the suggestions (Velimir's) that only composers "in those times" composed what the boss ordered, well... a fool who thinks it has ever been otherwise, before or since. Art & Economy, no matter how our fuzzy-post-Schumann-romantic-rosy-anti-capitalist prism wishes to consider them at inherent odds, only come together. If the CIA [sic] hadn't financed Boulez, he either wouldn't have composed (I think he would have made a fabulous accountant; perhaps a oboist; perhaps a Parisian fruit vendor-seller-type) or he would have composed jingles that made money. And Beethoven didn't open the ink bottle for free or with a commission dangling, either.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2010, 12:55:59 PM
[....]
If the CIA [sic] hadn't financed Boulez, he either wouldn't have composed (I think he would have made a fabulous accountant; perhaps a oboist; perhaps a Parisian fruit vendor-seller-type) or he would have composed jingles that made money. [....]
;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jimbo1046 on March 29, 2010, 02:58:14 AM
Hi there,

As a massive fan of the above work I was wondering if any one had any recommendations for pieces of a similarly exuberant ilk from the Bach canon?  Cheers, James.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 05:22:56 AM
Hi there,

As a massive fan of the above work I was wondering if any one had any recommendations for pieces of a similarly exuberant ilk from the Bach canon?  Cheers, James.

There are, of course, the orchestral suites, as well as other concerti, such as those for one and two violins.  I also have a collection of sinfonias taken from the Cantatas which contain some wonderful music.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Chaszz on March 29, 2010, 06:58:27 AM
There are, of course, the orchestral suites, as well as other concerti, such as those for one and two violins.  I also have a collection of sinfonias taken from the Cantatas which contain some wonderful music.
I'm a great fan of the Sinfonia from Cantata #29, which comes in several flavors of solo and orchestrated versions. Can you please give information on this collection of sinfonias you have, the title and where it may be purchased? Thanks.

Adding to the good recommendations above, fleshing out the one about solo concerti, I'd recommend the various concerti for one, two, three and four keyboards, including the delightful one for four harpsichords adapted from Vivaldi's concerto for four violins. And the great concerto for oboe and violin.

And some day, perhaps we'll hear that the concerti by his father which were lost because of the drunken irresponsibility of eldest son William Friedmanm have been discovered in the attic of a barroom somewhere in Germany.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on March 29, 2010, 07:03:11 AM
Hi Jimbo, welcome to GMG. We have a thread dedicated to Bach's "orchestral" and "chamber" music (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,981.0.html) where I'm sure you will find a few suggestions for your query. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 07:20:06 AM
I'm a great fan of the Sinfonia from Cantata #29, which comes in several flavors of solo and orchestrated versions. Can you please give information on this collection of sinfonias you have, the title and where it may be purchased? Thanks.

Rilling on Hanssler

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PCXEFT8KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Chaszz on March 29, 2010, 07:23:18 AM
Rilling on Hanssler

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PCXEFT8KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 07:29:05 AM
I also have this on Vinyl, never issued on CD, but better than Rilling or any other recording I've heard.

(http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1657112-1234970735.jpeg)

http://www.discogs.com/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Concentus-Musicus-Wien-Sinfonia/release/1657112
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on March 29, 2010, 01:12:29 PM
I still remember how impressed I was with this all star lineup in the early 80's when these two singles were released.  This version of Brandenburg Concertos is still among my all-time favorites, even though I probably have most of the HIP versions in my collection as well.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411W034XB9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413P19KEEWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You really like Marriner's Bach?  I find it has nothing to offer.  Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.  He can well handle a Mozart serenade or divertimento, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 01:20:21 PM
You really like Marriner's Bach?  I find it has nothing to offer.  Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.  He can well handle a Mozart serenade or divertimento, but that's about it.

Furthermore, I don't think the virtuoso soloists are important in Bach, it is all about ensemble.  For a thoroughly non-HIP Brandenburg set I like I Musici, also on Philips. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't think I have a single disc of Marriner recordings left in my collection at this point.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 29, 2010, 01:43:03 PM
Actually, I think Marriner's the most overrated conductor still alive.

 ;D


P.S.: Probably the best version on modern instrument:

Wendy Carlos: Switched-on Brandenburgs

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_850vVogwJsg/Shb-gI_9x6I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/vguThCaXybY/s1600/13638710.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 29, 2010, 03:12:32 PM
P.S.: Probably the best version on modern instrument:
Wendy Carlos: Switched-on Brandenburgs
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_850vVogwJsg/Shb-gI_9x6I/AAAAAAAAAJ4/vguThCaXybY/s1600/13638710.jpg)

Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do agree about W.Carlos' Bach, though!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2010, 03:15:33 PM
Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do not find any inflexibility or stiltedness in I Musici.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 29, 2010, 05:07:33 PM
Furthermore, I don't think the virtuoso soloists are important in Bach, it is all about ensemble.  For a thoroughly non-HIP Brandenburg set I like I Musici, also on Philips. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't think I have a single disc of Marriner recordings left in my collection at this point.

I have close to 30 versions of Brandenburg Concertos.  My Brandenburg Concertos by I Musici is actually on LP.  I found the tempos confusing and it definitely is not one of my favorite version.  I just found the Marriner's version one of the better one performed on non-period instruments and that all-star lineup does have its attraction.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 30, 2010, 02:11:08 AM
Yeesh. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire. Marinner is to regular instruments what I Musici is to "HIP". Nah... I Musici is actually worse than that. Sewing machine Italo-pre-HIPness that is inflexible, unmusical, stilted...

I do agree about W.Carlos' Bach, though!

Those are so modern that I quite think they've come round to the other side!!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2010, 04:12:39 AM
My fave Brandenburgers on non-HIP instrumentarium:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/14slhj5.jpg)

And, even though I'm not a fan of Richter's style in general, I'm 'afraid' I will always have a weak spot for this one:

(http://i44.tinypic.com/ev2cds.jpg)

Marriner is definitely not my cup of tea in Bach, he makes me fall asleep, but I do like some of his Haydn symphonies, Mozart choral stuff and also some of Wolfie's opera's.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on March 30, 2010, 04:21:25 AM
One of the first CDs I bought in the 90-ies was this:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AVSA9871.jpg)

(then, I think, on the Astree label) and it was so good that I have never sought out another version of these concertoes!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidRoss on March 30, 2010, 06:20:55 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AVSA9871.jpg)

...so good that I have never sought out another version of these concertoes!
Yes indeedy!  Not that there aren't other fine ones, such as the delightful Il Giardino Armonico recording...but that distinctive dark, woody sound of Savall's group adds just the right touch of heft for my tastes.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 30, 2010, 12:20:25 PM
My fave Brandenburgers on non-HIP instrumentarium:

[IMG width=15-]http://i43.tinypic.com/14slhj5.jpg[/img]

I've always been under the impression (not the least having heard their St.M.P. live at the Concertgebouw) that they, Comb.Amst., were a HIP instrumented group.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on March 30, 2010, 08:29:30 PM
I'll put in a word for this recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YNZ9FD3GL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on March 30, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
I'll put in a word for this recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YNZ9FD3GL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.

Great set with fantastic brass.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2010, 03:49:32 AM
I've always been under the impression (not the least having heard their St.M.P. live at the Concertgebouw) that they, Comb.Amst., were a HIP instrumented group.
Combattimento Amsterdam plays on modern instruments, yet they've specialzed themselves in ancient music (mainly 17th & 18th century), with adaptation of many HIP-developments. One could call them semi-HIP. ;)
BTW: indeed, on some occasions old instruments are more or less incorporated, like brass sections or the strings on violins et cetera. Like f.i. Harnoncourt and Mackerass have done/are doing also when conducting 'modern' ensembles.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DarkAngel on March 31, 2010, 04:15:45 AM
I'll put in a word for this recording.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YNZ9FD3GL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

One of the very first CD sets I purchased, and my introduction to HIP;  the editorial review at Amazon seems to be talking through his hat, as far as I'm concerned.

Very fast tempos even by todays standards, one of my favorite Brandenburg sets also, easy to get as part of the 2CD Panorama series - Bach Vol I with some other bonus material:
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ETJKZSNPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
Recently I decided to go full monty and get the Goebel boxset of Bach works, no regrets.....
 
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MBRRARRHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2010, 04:37:51 AM
[About the Brandenburg Concertos by Musica Antiqua Köln]
Great set with fantastic brass.
Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 31, 2010, 04:48:41 AM
What means "IHO"?

I got it: "in his opinion".
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on March 31, 2010, 04:51:53 AM
In His Opinion.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 31, 2010, 04:52:40 AM
In His Opinion.

Thanks, Erato.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on March 31, 2010, 04:54:23 AM
You're welcome!

;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 31, 2010, 05:57:54 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MBRRARRHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I bought this set a few months ago, it is indeed an excellent set.  I enjoyed the contrast between the relatively fast-paced Brandenburg Concertos from this set and my other two dozen plus versions.   
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 31, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
I bought this set a few months ago, it is indeed an excellent set.  I enjoyed the contrast between the relatively fast-paced Brandenburg Concertos from this set and my other two dozen plus versions.

One month ago I purchased a version perhaps more “abominable” than Musica Antiqua Köhln; it's the version by Il Giardino Armonico, included in an 11-CD box set. But I have not listened them yet.   ;)  8)

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/il_giardino_armonico_anthology.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 31, 2010, 06:41:26 PM
Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.

Marc,  Thanks for sharing the info, which probably would not have been available in the English press.  While Musica Antiqua Köln was a fine ensemble, I too think Trevor Pinnock and his English Concert were just outstanding during their golden era in the 1980's and in fact I went on a date attending their performance at the Metropolitan Museum in NYC in the summer of 1986.  Reinhardt Goebel no doubt got the cold shoulder as Pinnock and Gardiner were flying high and delivered stellar profits for DG Archive in the 1980's and beyond.  His bitterness toward the English ensembles is quite understandable.  I do, however, share his view that the HIP movement is much overdone.  There are just too many ensembles out there that are on that bandwagon.  That is why I sometime enjoy listening to the Brandenburg Concertos performed by Karajan and the BPO just to take a break from the HIP frenzy ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 31, 2010, 06:46:50 PM
It probably is a good thing that I have not pulled the trigger on this Handel Concerti Grossi, Op. 6 by Il Giardino Armonico.  I do not own any recordings by this ensemble ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51na--F7GjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2010, 07:36:53 PM
Unfortunately, Goebel left the Period-Instruments-Building about 4 years ago, after he decided to quit with his Musica Antiqua Köln.

In one of the interviews I've read in those days (in German and Dutch magazines/newspapers) he stated that he was almost literally 'sick' of the period instruments movement, which had 'developed' itself in a conceiting bunch of people, who played their ancient music without the right principles, skills, expression and intensity, yet on the so-called right instruments. Goebel especially disliked the anglo-saxon part of the movement (he named a.o. Gardiner, Pinnock, McCreesh, Minkowski, Curtis), who were mainly producing slick and flat performances, IHO.
He also mentioned an ensemble like Il Giardino Armonico, which was extremly popular for some years, but had, IHO, bad instrumentalists.

According to Goebel, this was partly caused by strict specialism concerning the instruments that 'had' to be played. Young musicians started playing on ancient instruments far too soon, without learning to play Beethoven, Brahms or Stravinsky before that. This development had lead to underskilled PI musicians. Goebel himself couldn't get skilled young PI musicians like the way he wanted them any more, which made it more difficult to continue with his MAK ensemble.

On the other hand, Goebel said that he still loved ancient music very much and was especially pleased with the attitude of 'modern' instrumentalists and (chamber) orchestras, in whose attitude he recognized the same drive and ambitions that the HIP-momevement had in its earlier days. Apart from that, they were far better skilled than most young PI musicians.

Goebel also stated that the HIP-problems were caused by the fact that the large record labels (like DG, his 'own' label) only or mainly wanted to produce new ancient music recordings with PI ensembles. And a lot of those new PI ensembles and conductors didn't have the right attitude, IHO. Goebel immensly disliked the attitude that the instrument was more important than the performer. I remember a sentence like music making is in your head, not in your instrument.

Goebel was asked if his statements were caused by embitterment. And yes, he admitted he felt scoffed by DG. The 'new' slick PI ensembles sold very good, which meant that his MAK became less important to DG during the years. This development made it growingly difficult to finance his ensemble. So, eventually he decided to quit.

To conclude: I'm only summarizing Goebel's statements. I did not include my own opinions. When I first read it, I shook my head several times, because indeed the sound of bitterness seemed to be prevailing.
But yes, I agree with him that a certain amount of PI performances nowadays seem to sound perfect, yet lack some necessary soul. Herreweghe's performances have softened during the years, and f.i. the rather praised SMP recording of McCreesh is immensely dull to my ears.

To me, Musica Antiqua Köln was indeed a great ensemble, who dared to HIT both the scores and their instruments in an attractive and intense way. It's a pity they're not around anymore.

Was there no mention of his devastating motorcycle accident, and how it resulted in problems with his right hand and arm?  He was forced to learn to play the violin fingering with the right hand and bowing with the left and while he still plays, it is not at the same level as  before the accident.   I'm sure that had as much to do with the diminishment of the MAK at DG as anything else.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2010, 05:47:32 AM
Was there no mention of his devastating motorcycle accident, and how it resulted in problems with his right hand and arm?  He was forced to learn to play the violin fingering with the right hand and bowing with the left and while he still plays, it is not at the same level as  before the accident.  I'm sure that had as much to do with the diminishment of the MAK at DG as anything else.
If I remember it well: it was mentioned indeed. But he had been a left handed violinst already since 1990, so if that was the main raison my guess would be that he would have stopped playing earlier. In the interview itself he was mainly complaining about the indolence of the HIP/PI-movement.

In a later article (2008? 2009?) in the Dutch Volkskrant Goebel admitted though that he wasn't as good as a 'lefty' as he was as a 'righty'. But he could have continued with MAK .... as artistic director or as conductor! Because that's what he's been doing the last three years. Though mainly not with Period Instuments. He has conducted f.i. the Brabants Orkest (Netherlands) and in Germany he has conducted Dittersdorf's comic Singspiel Doktor und Apotheker, with young vocal and instrumental students of the Musikakademie Rheinsberg, Germany.

Oh, did Goebel have another HIP-thing to complain about, in that more recent article?
YES, HE DID!
He was complaining about all the lutes, theorbes and chitaronnes that were added to the basso continuo in almost every baroque composition, which made a lot of serious compositions sound like some kind of Carnival. And, besides that, because of the long 'necks' rising above the orchestra, it looked like half the continuo section was suffering from an erection ....

;D

If, in the future, no one in the musical world wants Herr Goebel anymore, my guess is that he could always earn his money as a stand up comedian!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on April 01, 2010, 05:55:10 AM
Oh, did Goebel have another HIP-thing to complain about, in that more recent article?
YES, HE DID!
He was complaining about all the lutes, theorbes and chitaronnes that were added to the basso continuo in almost every baroque composition, which made a lot of serious compositions sound like some kind of Carnival.

Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/ (http://www.newolde.com/)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2010, 06:09:41 AM
Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/ (http://www.newolde.com/)
I admit: I prefer f.i. Bach's vocal church compositions with only an organ in the continuo. BUT: if Goebel is claiming that 'music making is in one's head and NOT in the instruments', then complaints like those are laughable IMO.
In the Netherlands, I have read more articles or forum attributions where scholars or scholastic performers/listeners did complain f.i. about the performances and recordings of René Jacobs. According to them, Jacobs' views had nothing to do with historical reality anymore.

Question is though: is such rebuilding of a so-called historical reality necessary to make or enjoy music?

Well, to me that is a rhetorical question. ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on April 01, 2010, 06:14:29 AM

Question is though: is such rebuilding of a so-called historical reality necessary to make or enjoy music?

But then; why claim to be a HIP ensemble? If one is allowed to do anything that sounds good, the HIP movement has no leg to stand on.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2010, 06:50:00 AM
But then; why claim to be a HIP ensemble? If one is allowed to do anything that sounds good, the HIP movement has no leg to stand on.
Did they ever? ;)

Of course, this is all a matter of opinion. :P

Even though I prefer myself so-called HIP performances (since I started listening to baroque music at the age of about 12 or 13) I have always found words like authentic or historically informed rather arrogant. As if they were the only ones who really knew and were doing the right thing.
Now come on! Karl Richter and Eugen Jochum were historically informed, too, but not as thorough and scholastic maybe than Gustav Leonhardt. And apparently they had their own ideas they wanted to use, too. So what?
(Don't get me wrong: I prefer Leonhardt in baroque music by miles and miles and miles.)

HIP, as an 'invention' or even 'revolution' in music making will always get my vote. I really think it's fantastic that HIP has given us performances on 'authentic instruments' with more and closer attention to the original context and scores. Why? Well, for historical reasons of course, but MAINLY because I personally like it that way!

But it's definitely NOT the only way of music making. And in many contributions (in magazines or online boards) of HIP performers or HIP lovers during the years I have sensed a certain we know and you do not attitude. So, even though those contributions did contain some very interesting points (like the remarks of Goebel in his interviews, and the articles, contributions and interviews of many others) I do not intend to take them dramatically seriously in the end. I've read so many interviews with HIP performers who were accusing other performers (HIP or non-HIP) for doing so-called wrong things that in a way I felt like I was in the middle of some religious sect and their internal battles.

And yes, in a way, this HIP-sect has been that thoroughly compartmentalized, that the entire movement, as a united movement that is, has no leg to stand on anymore. It proofs that, in the end, music making is a personal thing. It proofs that, with the same 'correct' historical information, Hogwood and Norrington can decide diffently about tempi or articulation or phrasing or ornamenting et cetera, as with Leonhardt and Harnoncourt, Koopman and Herreweghe, McCreesh and Van Veldhoven, et cetera and et al. So yes, I support Goebel's remark music making is in your head and not in your instrument, but the funny thing is that he, whilst talking about other heads, is not able to conform himself to his own principle.

I don't want to punish him for that, though. My experience is: he's not the only one who apparently can't stand by his own principles all the time .... me, myself and I, and millions of others join that band so many times.
I remember once reading a fine sentence in a a Dutch novella by a certain Oek de Jong, in which the main character stated something like every principle needs inconsistency. It makes the principle even more desirable.

You see, in the end I'm always a positivo! :D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on November 05, 2010, 02:02:20 PM
Anyone heard this yet? :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000619.jpg)

at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orchestersuiten-Nr-1-4/hnum/2267340)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on November 05, 2010, 02:26:06 PM
Here's another guy who positively hates the current unidiomatic fashion for adding strummed instruments to recordings of baroque music:

http://www.newolde.com/ (http://www.newolde.com/)

I revile those strummed instruments, they are generally a deal-breaker for me.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 04, 2010, 03:33:20 AM
Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886976838522.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 04:03:52 AM
Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886976838522.jpg)

Q

Damn! I don't have those Orchestral Suites.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: The new erato on December 04, 2010, 05:52:20 AM
Pointing out this new reissue, which seems a great bargain (17 euros at jpc).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886976838522.jpg)

Q
This series is significantly cheaper at amazon.fr, I'd guess 11 Euros (without having checked).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 06:16:27 AM
This series is significantly cheaper at amazon.fr, I'd guess 11 Euros (without having checked).

Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on December 04, 2010, 06:33:19 AM
Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?

All without liner notes, sadly. Very, very no-frill release series.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 06:49:21 AM
All without liner notes, sadly. Very, very no-frill release series.

Thanks, Jens.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 04, 2010, 02:49:22 PM
Just checked and it's right.

I have one of those boxes (Gould playing Beethoven piano concertos) and it didn't include liner notes. Is that the case in the other boxes?

I can supply you with information about the names of the players in the Bach Suites if you want.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Oldnslow on December 04, 2010, 05:50:17 PM
I have the recent Bach suites by the Concerto Koln on Berlin Classics, and find it excellent. I would call it middle of the road HIP, which is just fine by me. Along with  Ronaldo Alissindrini's  Concerto Italian Bradenburgs on Naive, they are two superb sets of these great pieces.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: ccar on December 04, 2010, 05:55:00 PM
                                   (http://www.siegelproductions.ca/images/Casals1small.jpg)

                                  “Technique, wonderful sound ... all of this is sometimes astonishing – but it is not enough.”


Pau Casals is always remembered as one of the most brilliant cellists in the musical history. But he is probably not so well known as an inspiring conductor, most particularly in Bach. For me, his Marlboro recordings of the Brandenburg Concerts are one of the most moving examples of his vision as musician and interpreter. Casals gives each movement in a continuous elan, with such intensity in the phrasing and intelligence for the orchestral colors that we feel as if he really brings out some kind of vital flame from that magical music. 

With the Marlboro Festival Orchestra Pau Casals recorded the 6 Brandenburg Concertos in 1964 and the 4 Orchestral Suites in 1966. There are also some earlier recordings from the Prades Festival - the 6 Brandenburg Concertos and the first 2 Orchestral Suites in 1950; and the Brandenburgs No.3 and No.4 in 1953. 



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KAMCBNM4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HWKCFEKPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51olQ2hydOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2010, 05:05:59 AM
I have the recent Bach suites by the Concerto Koln on Berlin Classics, and find it excellent. I would call it middle of the road HIP, which is just fine by me. Along with  Ronaldo Alissindrini's  Concerto Italian Bradenburgs on Naive, they are two superb sets of these great pieces.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lgcJDlO9bQM/TAyV_AaGtZI/AAAAAAAAAAU/Jx8x2302I40/s1600/ronaldo.jpg)

Ronaldo

(http://southfloridaclassicalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/alessandrini.jpg)

Rinaldo

 ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 05, 2010, 05:08:54 AM
I can supply you with information about the names of the players in the Bach Suites if you want.

Thanks, Premont; I will recall it if I purchase that set.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Oldnslow on December 05, 2010, 09:42:54 AM
Ronaldo is Rinaldo's younger brother---I always get them mixed up.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 06, 2010, 06:55:29 AM
Ronaldo is Rinaldo's younger brother---I always get them mixed up.

 ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: czgirb on December 20, 2010, 08:13:06 PM
In the Brandenburg Concertos I like Goebel, but also Leonhardt, more detailed, almost in a chamber music perspective.
For me ... I preferred Leonhart's SEON ... owned the LPs Box Set, it includes a copy of hand-writing transcription in the package ... and I'm very ... very ... proud to owned it!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on December 20, 2010, 08:54:21 PM
For me ... I preferred Leonhart's SEON ... owned the LPs Box Set, it includes a copy of hand-writing transcription in the package ... and I'm very ... very ... proud to owned it!

They are all in this box ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N1Fe07jWL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: czgirb on December 22, 2010, 04:50:43 PM
They are all in this box ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N1Fe07jWL._SS500_.jpg)

Oh yeah ??? What the lucky CDs owner is.
Grab it, while its able to be grab.
It's a treasure.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on December 22, 2010, 04:59:27 PM
Oh yeah ??? What the lucky CDs owner is.
Grab it, while its able to be grab.
It's a treasure.

I bought this set about a month ago at a great price.  The set helps fill in same gaps in my Leonhardt collection ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: czgirb on December 22, 2010, 05:37:30 PM
I bought this set about a month ago at a great price.  The set helps fill in same gaps in my Leonhardt collection ...

Congratulation!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 23, 2010, 05:49:31 PM
So, this thread has been going on for 3+ years - my interest is now mainly a combo box of the Brandenburgs & Orchestral Suites; now I have 2-3 sets of both of these works, but would like to pick up the group's highest recommendation of those two compositions - so at present and w/ new combo releases, what are some of the current suggestions - thanks all -  ;D 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: PaulSC on December 23, 2010, 06:09:31 PM
Bach Collegium Japan, Suzuki on BIS is hard to beat IMO
(Streaming at naxos.com if that's any use to you...)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J8tHPtCeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bulldog on December 23, 2010, 10:09:30 PM
Bach Collegium Japan, Suzuki on BIS is hard to beat IMO
(Streaming at naxos.com if that's any use to you...)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J8tHPtCeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, that's a great one.  I'm also fond of the Pinnock combo. on Archiv Produktion (3cds).  Actually, I'm not aware of any other PI sets just having the Brandenburgs and the Orch. Suites.  I love Goebel but he's only available on a much larger set (about 8 discs).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 24, 2010, 12:25:38 AM
Actually, I'm not aware of any other PI sets just having the Brandenburgs and the Orch. Suites.

It also exists this 4-CD set on Virgin Classics:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YbK%2Bz0-mL._SS400_.jpg)

The Brandenburgs are performed by the Taverner Players and the Orchestral Suites by the Boston Early Music Festival Orchestra.

That said, I would vote Suzuki. That set includes his superb new (second) recording of the Brandenburgs, including some beauties like the use of cellos da spalla. The orchestral suites -older than the Brandenburgs- are also excellent.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: early grey on December 24, 2010, 01:38:13 AM
As a contrast to these modern recordings, you can hear some vintage performances of Bach  by following the "Transcriptions of 78s" thread, which as a new member, I am proud to present to you.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Clever Hans on December 24, 2010, 06:41:46 AM
Yes, that's a great one.  I'm also fond of the Pinnock combo. on Archiv Produktion (3cds).  Actually, I'm not aware of any other PI sets just having the Brandenburgs and the Orch. Suites.  I love Goebel but he's only available on a much larger set (about 8 discs).

The Suzuki combo is great, but I would vote the idiomatic Goebel because it's only 5 dollars more and the chamber music performances are amazing. Probably the best Bach set out there.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 24, 2010, 07:00:51 AM
Thanks all for the comments, especially on the Suzuki box - I perused this thread closely yesterday and there are plenty of offerings w/ superlative comments; the Suzuki fills my desires for the Brandburgs/Orchestral Suites and the 3 discs are being offered at a good price on the Amazon Marketplace.

The 8-disc Goebel set w/ MAK (a group that I do love - actually heard them at La Scala in Milan back in 1996) is certainly appealing, but I already own multiple recordings of these other works.  Now that does not exclude obtaining another Brandenburg set by one of the Italian groups, if the price is right - will take a look!  :D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 25, 2010, 01:15:22 AM
Will be issued early January in Europe!  :)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/FR/images_produits/FR/Fnac.com/ZoomPE/8/8/6/3760014191688.jpg)

Orchestersuite Nr. 3 D-Dur BWV 1068
Cembalokonzert f-moll BWV 1056
Brandenburgisches Konzert Nr. 6 B-Dur BWV 1051
Konzert für 3 Cembali & Streicher d-moll BWV 1063


Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on December 25, 2010, 07:17:31 AM
Will be issued early January in Europe!  :)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/FR/images_produits/FR/Fnac.com/ZoomPE/8/8/6/3760014191688.jpg)

Orchestersuite Nr. 3 D-Dur BWV 1068
Cembalokonzert f-moll BWV 1056
Brandenburgisches Konzert Nr. 6 B-Dur BWV 1051
Konzert für 3 Cembali & Streicher d-moll BWV 1063


Q

Would want to hear your review before I spring for another recording of the Brandenburg Concertos.  Having already had over 30 versions of the Brandenburg Concertos, there are no reasons for me to spring for another one unless it has something special to offer ...

Merry Christmas, Q.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2010, 11:38:40 AM
Latest on WETA:

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bach_logo_halfsize.png)

Bach is for Dancing (If it Suites You)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2565)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gnDEukDLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
J.S.Bach,
Orchestral Suites, Concerto Köln
Berlin Classics
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007MAQGO/weta909-20)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 21, 2011, 11:16:44 PM
One also has to watch Richter conducting the Brandenburg Concertos to realize he should not be dismissed as totally non-HIP.  He clearly scaled his Munich Bach Chamber Orchestra according to the particular concerto the group was performing, which was only clear from watching the dvd.

On the other hand, performing the 3rd with more than one player per part is really unthinkable from the HIP point of view.  The unequal numbers of the violins violas and the cellos used also destroy the symmetry implied by the score.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XHHzop0ha6Y

http://www.youtube.com/v/VQZAhBo1BPw
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 03:05:44 AM
On the other hand, performing the 3rd with more than one player per part is really unthinkable from the HIP point of view.  The unequal numbers of the violins violas and the cellos used also destroy the symmetry implied by the score.

Even if you perform the third Brandenburg concerto with OPPP and PI the balance is too bass-heavy. This problem can only be solved by using violoncelli da spalla.

The Richter Brandenburg DVD reminds me of some kind of purposeless ritual service, an impression neither his recording for Decca (1957) nor his recording for Archive (1967) induce into me. You may call the pictures a disadvantageous and disturbing factor in this case. Apropos, in the textbook of the original LP release of the h-minor Mass, he says in an interview, that his preferred scoring for the ripieno in the Brandenburgs (he must mean concertos 1,2 and 4) is 8,8,6,4,2.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 03:20:55 AM
Even if you perform the third Brandenburg concerto with OPPP and PI the balance is too bass-heavy. This problem can only be solved by using violoncelli da spalla.

Perhaps - even though I think this still depends on one's preference in sound or timbre balance.  Or are you suggesting that all OPPP Brandenburg 3's recordings before Kuijken III or Suzuki II were all 'doctor'd' by engineers? ;)   I'd imagine Bach probably didn't care or have a definite balance in mind - because he could alway leave the task of adaptation to the (would-be) user of this music, especially when it was performed elsewhere out of his sight.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCeEegoH-ic

ps. It's not that I think using da spalla's in Baroque chamber or orchestral music is a bad idea.  Not at all; in fact I am sure they were more common than we ever thought at the time, but I can never feel as confident as you are, that they are the ONE answer to the problem, because 'the problem' didn't really exist. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 06:35:55 AM
...are you suggesting that all OPPP Brandenburg 3's recordings before Kuijken III or Suzuki II were all 'doctor'd' by engineers? ;)
 

No, I am suggesting, that the balance on recordings often is less good. It is obvious to me, that the celli often are too prominent, and that they often drown the violas, which often are playing antiphonally with the violins and should be heard equally well. This is why the "staging" should be violins to the left, violas to the right and celli in the center. Of course Bach had a balance in mind which made it possible to hear all the parts easily.

Another issue about the bass-heaviness of this concerto is the question of which stringed instrument one should  use for the continuo part. In  the "modern instrument" rendering a common doublebass has been commonly used, which means a 16´ instrument. And in a PI rendering a 16´ violone most often has been used, but the score does not indicate whether this should be a 16´violone or a 8´ violone. The use of a 8´ violone would make this concert a bit more transparent and less bass heavy.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 06:42:20 AM
Of course Bach had a balance in mind which made it possible to hear all the parts easily.

Well if he had not changed the scoring (or made explicit instructions, e.g. the da braccio and da gamba in the sixth) in the manuscript dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg, I can't say that he'd really have insisted on any choice of balance in this music.  Plus, if the 'da spalla' solution was so prevalent, we would have had more information on its use from the period iconography or textural sources. 

Later I can post the concerto from Kuijken's new recording in the thread on 'chamber and orchestral music' and see how much the overall picture really benefits from his experiment.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 07:02:00 AM
Quote Masolino: A similar case exists for the 'fiauti d'echo' in the 4th concerto.  Were they a pair of alto recorders in F, sixth flutes in C, or one each?  I'd say whatever plays in the range and sounds like a 'flauto' will do.

Agreed that the choice of instruments is less important than the ensuring of a resonable balance. Concerning the arranged (Brandenburg) harpsichord concerto BWV 1057 (in F-major) two alto recorders in F are ideal both as to the range of the parts and as to the balance, In  the case of the Fourth Brandenburg in G-major the parts are more uncomfortable to play on altos in F, but they are impossible to play on C flutes. One solution which has been used, is to play the first flauto part on a G flute and the second flute part on a F flute. The second part however uses notes below g´´ (remember the flutes play in 4´range) so seldom, that it might be advisable to play the part on a flute in G and transpose or omit those few notes. But as far as I know no one has recorded the concerto with two flutes in G.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 07:08:06 AM
Premont, we need to take this discussion over to the other thread which this music belongs to.  Yes sixth flutes are in G, blame it on my faulty memory!  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 07:12:08 AM
Well if he had not changed the scoring (or made explicit instructions, e.g. the da braccio and da gamba in the sixth) in the manuscript dedicated to the Margrave of Brandenburg, I can't say that he'd really have insisted on any choice of balance in this music.  Plus, if the 'da spalla' solution was so prevalent, we would have had more information on its use from the period iconography or textural sources.

In the sixth Brandenburg three members of the violin family (two viola d braccio´s and a violoncello - da spalla or not) are playing "against" three members of the viola da gamba family (two bass gambas and possibly a contrabas gamba). And the point is that the members of the violin family has got the lead in the concerto and thereby winning the game. Therefore he had to specify the instruments he wanted used in that case. Concerning the third Brandenburg he did not specify the instruments because he considered it to be selfunderstood which instruments should be used. Alas it is not selfunderstood to day. But he was not aware that his music would be played so many years after his death.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 07:13:29 AM
Premont, we need to take this discussion over to the other thread which this music belongs to.  Yes sixth flutes are in G, blame it on my faulty memory!  ;)

Then I suggest that we ask Que to put it there.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 07:45:44 AM
On the other hand, performing the 3rd with more than one player per part is really unthinkable from the HIP point of view.  The unequal numbers of the violins violas and the cellos used also destroy the symmetry implied by the score.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XHHzop0ha6Y

http://www.youtube.com/v/VQZAhBo1BPw

Not sure if you actually have the Richter Brandenburg Concertos DVD but I do.  IIRC, Cto #6 was performed with no more than 5 or 6 musicians, which IMO, was pretty close to any HIP performance ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:46:55 AM
On the other hand, performing the 3rd with more than one player per part is really unthinkable from the HIP point of view.  The unequal numbers of the violins violas and the cellos used also destroy the symmetry implied by the score.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XHHzop0ha6Y

http://www.youtube.com/v/VQZAhBo1BPw

My god, what idiotic videos.  Who would think that it would be most interesting to focus the camera on an ornate doorway while the orchestra plays on the other side of the room.   ???  On the other hand, the best idea would be to turn the camera and recording equipment off entirely. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 08:05:27 AM
Cto #6 was performed with no more than 5 or 6 musicians, which IMO, was pretty to any HIP performance ...

Six musicians + Richter, but this is (concerning Richter)  the exception which confirms the rule.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 08:21:42 AM
Not sure if you actually have the Richter Brandenburg Concertos DVD but I do.  IIRC, Cto #6 was performed with no more than 5 or 6 musicians, which IMO, was pretty to any HIP performance ...

I wouldn't want his Brandenburg DVD to be honest, reasons for which have been provided earlier by another poster.  For performances of comparable vintage, get Collegium Aureum's recording for BASF/DHM.  It's got Leonhardt, it's got period instruments, it's got a really natural recorded sound and it's gotten much closer to the HIP standards today than Karl Richter ever managed to... (if I remember it rightly, only 1 and 2 have more than one player per part.)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 08:25:55 AM
I wouldn't want his Brandenburg DVD to be honest, reasons for which have been provided earlier by another poster.  For performances of that vintage, get Collegium Aureum's recording for DHM.  It's got Leonhardt, it's got period instruments,
and it's much closer to the HIP standards today than Karl Richter ever managed to...

Richter's recordings in my baroque collection are really for historical perspective.  I probably have a larger HIP collection of baroque works than most people I know anyway.  Three of my 25 Beethoven Symphonies cycles were performed in period instruments ...

BTW, I already have a rather large selection of recordings by Leonhardt ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 08:29:48 AM
Richter's recordings in my baroque collection are really for historical perspective.  I probably have a larger HIP collection of baroque works than most people I know anyway.  Three of my 25 Beethoven Symphonies cycles were performed in period instruments ...

BTW, I already have a rather large selection of recordings by Leonhardt ...

By nature I am selective.  ;) 

BTW, do you still think Richter close to HIP after the Collegium Aureum?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 08:38:33 AM
Richter's recordings in my baroque collection are really for historical perspective. 

Exactly. He was the last pupil of Karl Straube and an important transitional figure between the romantic way and the HIP movement, but he was very far from HIP himself. Consider f.i. the harpsichords he preferred.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 08:40:17 AM
By nature I am selective.  ;) 

Hehe, so am I, but within certain fields I am a completist. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 08:44:46 AM
Exactly. He was the last pupil of Karl Straube and an important transitional figure between the romantic way and the HIP movement, but he was very far from HIP himself. Consider f.i. the harpsichords he preferred.

I must say I find Richter utterly without charm.  For something in the same general style which gives me a lot more pleasure I would cite the I Musici recordings on Philips.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 08:47:53 AM
Hehe, so am I, but within certain fields I am a completist.

Like works by Bach.  I even have versions of SMP by Richter, Karajan and Mengelberg.  We are in complete agreement ...    ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 08:48:27 AM
Hehe, so am I, but within certain fields I am a completist.

I guess that makes me even more selective than you are.... ;D 

BTW, I will upload Kuijken's 3rd concerto after our exchange above on the 'cello da spalla is relocated.   Off to listen to Kuijken's recording of the suites for da spalla!  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 08:51:54 AM
I guess that makes me even more selective than you are.... ;D

BTW, I will upload Kuijken's 3rd concerto after our exchange above on the 'cello da braccio is relocated...   

I am only selective when it comes to minor composers or works in which I only have a passing interest.  Works of Gershwin and Bartok come to mind ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 08:58:14 AM
I am only selective when it comes to minor composers or works in which I only have a passing interest.  Works of Gershwin and Bartok come to mind ...

Fine with that.  Speaking for myself, I need to have a life away even from the major composers. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 09:02:05 AM
I must say I find Richter utterly without charm. 

I agree completely. Certainly even more true of his sewing-machine recordings for Archiv of the Bach harpsichord concertos.

For something in the same general style which gives me a lot more pleasure I would cite the I Musici recordings on Philips.

I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 09:09:20 AM
I agree completely. Certainly even more true of his sewing-machine recordings for Archiv of the Bach harpsichord concertos.

I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.

I probably have no more than a dozen of CD's by I Musici, as most of their recordings I have are on LP.  Over the years, performances by the I Solisti Veneti/Scimone have become far more attractive to me.  I can never forget how dreadful I Musici performed the Brandenburg Concertos, which I have in a 2-LP Philips set, collecting dust on my LP shelf ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 09:10:19 AM
I suppose you refer to the I Musici I from 1964. This is one of the few available sets from that period.
Their second set from 1984 with Pina Carmirelli, Guy Touvron and Hermann Baumann among others is already a bit more modern and less stiff in comparison.

Correct.  I have not heard the later set, but I don't find the early one at all stiff.  I like it because I feel it has some of the better attributes of the "romanticized" Bach while partaking of some of the clarity and energy that good HIP performances bring.  Then again, I also like Karajan's 60's Brandenburg set.   Nothing beats Fasolis, though.  ;D

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 02:55:29 PM
BTW, I will upload Kuijken's 3rd concerto after our exchange above on the 'cello da spalla is relocated. :)

The bass seems much lighter than customary - I'd prefer something in between the 'all da spalla' and 'all continuo cello' solutions, say 1:2 or 2:1.  Maybe that's what Bach had most of the time for his own performances.  :D

http://www.youtube.com/v/0zXJw-_apP4

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5816/93027067.jpg)

Including da spalla's, 8' violone, the antiphonal staging for violins and violas, I see that someone has totally bought into Sigiwald Kuijken's argument... ;)

(http://jsbach.up.seesaa.net/image/Kuijen_La_Petite_Bande_1046-1051_2009.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 03:31:22 PM
Including da spalla's, 8' violone, the antiphonal staging for violins and violas, I see that someone has totally bought into Sigiwald Kuijken's argument... ;)

Well, he just performs the concerto to my taste, in the way I (since long) thought it should be -  except that I did not earlier realise the perspective of the violoncello da spalla, but I certainly find Kuijken´s thoughts about this instrument ingenious. Having heard the instrument in this recording (and Suzuki´s), I admit that the continuo violone maybe should be a 16´ instrument, but I do not find this question to be that important when violoncello da spalla is used for all three cello parts.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2011, 03:45:29 PM
The bass seems much lighter than customary - I'd prefer something in between the 'all da spalla' and 'all continuo cello' solutions, say 1:2 or 2:1.  Maybe that's what Bach had most of the time for his own performances.  :D

Probably not, because this would spoil the internal balance between the three cello´s and make one or two of the cello parts more prominent in the few bars where they do not play in unison.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 22, 2011, 10:56:42 PM
Probably not, because this would spoil the internal balance between the three cello´s and make one or two of the cello parts more prominent in the few bars where they do not play in unison.

Makes sense - that was a lack of thought on my part to assume otherwise in this particular case.   On the other hand, as you said, playing in unison throughout would not have created a problem.  Some people have criticised this as being a 'safe' 'conservative' performance quite unlike Fasolis/Arts for example.  But I think Kuijken is just being himself, consistent as he is stylistically throughout the years I have listened to him and his Petite Bande.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 04:23:08 AM
For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording ;)

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Hcbhl_rMJvM

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?  To me the difference is distinct even though not outrageously so.  That alone is probably enough to keep the all-cello-da-gamba solution alive for a long time to come, even in the PI world.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2011, 05:16:45 AM
For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording ;)

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?

Perhaps in the lowest notes .... but to me it's actually the Kuijken recording where the 'center of gravity' sounds (upon first, and very cursory, impression) lower and heavier. Definite difference, though... and both are wonderful performances.

(See also: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=465))
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 23, 2011, 05:27:19 AM
For comparison or contrast to the above Kuijken recording ;)

Richard Egarr directs the Academy of Ancient Music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Hcbhl_rMJvM

Does Egarr's performance sound particularly 'bass-heavy' than Kuijken's to anyone?  To me the difference is distinct even though not outrageously so.  That alone is probably enough to keep the all-cello-da-gamba solution alive for a long time to come, even in the PI world.
Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2011, 05:33:39 AM
Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

Egarr chose the ‘French’ Baroque pitch for this recording at A = 392 Hz...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 23, 2011, 07:31:06 AM
Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

Yes, possibly, so these two recordings (Egarr, Kuijken II) cannot be compared in all details-
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 07:46:49 AM
Might also be that the Egarr is tuned to a lower level (technical terminology for this escapes me at the moment). This may be what you are reacting to as well.

The Egarr would have an even lighter bass, if it had not adopted the lower pitch.  In that case the difference when compared to the Kuijken would probably be even more difficult to discern.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 23, 2011, 07:56:06 AM
The Egarr would have an even lighter bass, if it had not adopted the lower pitch.  In that case the difference when compared to the Kuijken would probably be even more difficult to discern.

Difficult to tell. Now I do not remember whether Egarr uses an 8´ or a 16´ on the continuo group.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 08:06:23 AM
Difficult to tell. Now I do not remember whether Egarr uses an 8´ or a 16´ on the continuo group.

For the 3rd concerto, he uses a double bass (anon. Italian, 1750) and a theorbo in the continuo section.  16' then?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on January 23, 2011, 07:18:28 PM
For the 3rd concerto, he uses a double bass (anon. Italian, 1750) and a theorbo in the continuo section.  16' then?

The liner notes state that in concertos 1,3, 4, and 5, the violone used 16'-pitch was used, but 8' pitch in 2 and 6.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 23, 2011, 10:47:44 PM
The liner notes state that in concertos 1,3, 4, and 5, the violone used 16'-pitch was used, but 8' pitch in 2 and 6.

Thanks for filling out the details.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on January 29, 2011, 08:48:13 AM
Don't think the integral set of Bach solo concertos by Musica Alta Ripa gets much mention but they are actually a little neat ensemble, playing always one-to-a-part.

BWV 1043  :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/PL3A2ckq_4o

http://www.youtube.com/v/372orn46xb4

http://www.youtube.com/v/mMpQNHQx4ro


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S06NGAY9L.jpg)


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on February 10, 2011, 01:13:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/rTiJEn76UTM



The last time this recording was discussed here, this other selling point of Kuijken's new Brandenburg set passed unmentioned: the tromba soloist, Jean-François Madeuf, used an instrument that, unlike most 'baroque trumpets' out there, has no finger holes on the tube.  Considering that Madeuf certainly did an admirable job staying in pitch a lot of times.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2011, 01:37:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/rTiJEn76UTM



The last time this recording was discussed here, this other selling point of Kuijken's new Brandenburg set passed unmentioned: the tromba soloist, Jean-François Madeuf, used an instrument that, unlike most 'baroque trumpets' out there, has no finger holes on the tube.  Considering that Madeuf certainly did an admirable job staying in pitch a lot of times.
Strange how sometimes a conductor just does everything 'wrong' for one's ears. Kuijken must be one for me, or I am just getting 'lucky' with him (had issues with some of his Haydn too)? I didn't like that excerpt at all. In particular, in the first couple of minutes, serveral players end up being out of synch when they play (usually decorative elements), holding notes too long or differing too much from their colleagues by slowing down and such (0.45-.53 is a spot and then again around 1.10). The effect is that they are not together. Even if I ignore that, this seems a bit flat to me (not out of tune, but too literal (or robotic or clipped perhaps) I guess explains it). Then I saw it cost nearly $50 at Amazon!!!!!  :o :o Oh well, not for me.

I listened to the Musica Alta Ripa, but they seem bland to me. Perhaps I am not attuned to the one per part thing. Or perhapsthe Kuijken above was still too fresh in my memory!  >:(  I'll have to give them another chance another day.  ;D

Thanks for posting the excerpts. I really enjoy when people share like that!!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on February 10, 2011, 01:57:54 AM
In particular, in the first couple of minutes, serveral players end up being out of synch when they play (usually decorative elements), holding notes too long or differing too much from their colleagues by slowing down and such (0.45-.53 is a spot and then again around 1.10). The effect is that they are not together.

Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.

Quote
I listened to the Musica Alta Ripa, but they seem bland to me. Perhaps I am not attuned to the one per part thing. Or perhapsthe Kuijken above was still too fresh in my memory!  >:(  I'll have to give them another chance another day.  ;D

Thanks for posting the excerpts. I really enjoy when people share like that!!

Kuijken is one per part too, but I think Alta Ripa has stricter rhythm.  I think the latter gave the music a very uniform treatment (subscribing to the concerto grosso rather the later solo concerto ideal), the main attraction being the texture of Bach's own composition which they did a very good job presenting as audible.  :) 

You are welcome about the sharing.  Visitors can listen to some of the music featured here even if they don't want to join in the endowment contest just yet that is very popular among record collectors.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2011, 02:11:11 AM
Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.

Kuijken is one per part too, but I think Alta Ripa has stricter rhythm.  I think the latter gave the music a very uniform treatment (subscribing to the concerto grosso rather the later solo concerto ideal), the main attraction being the texture of Bach's own composition which they did a very good job presenting as audible.  :) 

You are welcome about the sharing.  Visitors can listen to some of the music featured here even if they don't want to join in the endowment contest just yet that is very popular among record collectors.
Interesting. Perhaps that is why some instruments have occassional lapses in rhythm (no conductor)? Otherwise, the overall rhythm and tempo aspect of it is quite strong I thought (referring to Kuijken), and even more impressive if they are essentially just listening to each other for the most part.

And it's quality, not quantity!  8)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: PaulSC on February 10, 2011, 11:13:10 AM
Kuijken in this Bach is not really a 'conductor' in the usual sense - he plays the violin or the cello da spalla in all concertos.  As such I think he could not have the same kind of control or be fussy about synchronisation in what essentially is a pickup orchestra.  I am sure you won't find this issue with the legacy-status Goebel/MAK recording which sports a real solid ensemble.
Of course the MAK players know better than to linger a moment too long on a decoration or they'll easily end up several beats behind!

Kidding (sort of); I generally like Goebel's rapid tempos in this music.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: FideLeo on February 10, 2011, 11:38:01 AM
Kidding (sort of); I generally like Goebel's rapid tempos in this music.

I still think they tried to shock everybody with their definitely rebel Brandenburg with extra rapidity.   Of course it worked like a charm.  It took some listeners more than a decade to get over that shock.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2011, 09:34:27 AM
Richter recorded BWV 1052 twice, once with Talich and once with Sanderling. Yudina recorded it once with Sanderling. Edwin Fischer recorded it once, directing the orchestra himself. Gould recorded it twice, once with a Leningrad orchestra and once as part of his Bach concerto series.

Yudina/Sanderling is maybe too slow for some tastes

http://www.youtube.com/v/m4FsIEtEHG8

I think it's very powerful though. I don't think it's any stranger than Edwin Fischer's rather dynamic approach:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ft4IYK9FuAo

Maybe Richter/Talich find the happy medium in terms of tempo and expressivity. I would say his performance with Talich is one of the real high points of his career. Unfortunately not on youtube.

Richter/Sanderlimg is slower and the piano is rather more prominent. Maybe not too prominent. The forward piano in Gould/Leningrad seems to me a killer in an otherwise interesting interpretation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/qK7__mtsRYQ

I'm starting to see how important balance is in these concertos. And how hard the balance issues are to resolve a piano.

If none of these suit, then Cafe Zimmermann seems to me to be undeniably excellent and lively -- but IMO incommesurable with the above fine piano performances. Not on youtube. Beautiful balances






Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 05:25:10 AM
It's interesting (to me) to compare directly this old performance of the Afectuoso of Brandenburg 5 from Cortot

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d75a1ff

with a more up to date one, like this one from the Linde Consort

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fd4354b

One very striking difference is that Linde is relatively flat in terms of dynamics, Cortot much more varied.

So I'm guessing that more modern performers tend to avoid introducing dynamic variation, and that Cortot's dynamic style is part of what people refer to as "romantic" Bach playing. Is that right?

And what do you think you gain and lose, aesthetically?

Is Cortot's style here what people mean by terraced dynamics? I know that Schnabel was opposed to this, saying that it gets in the way of expressing  change, which he thought was the essential thing in music, apparently (it's mentioned in Konrad Wolff's book on Artur Schnabel.)

Schnabel recorded BWV 1061 with his son, and indeed there is very little dynamic variation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/w6d3tYQ17y0

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 25, 2011, 06:53:18 AM
Richter recorded BWV 1052 twice, once with Talich and once with Sanderling. Yudina recorded it once with Sanderling. Edwin Fischer recorded it once, directing the orchestra himself. Gould recorded it twice, once with a Leningrad orchestra and once as part of his Bach concerto series.

Yudina/Sanderling is maybe too slow for some tastes

I think it's very powerful though. I don't think it's any stranger than Edwin Fischer's rather dynamic approach:

The Yudina / Sanderling is not only too slow but also too heavily accented - almost every semiquaver is stressed. This is indeed very unstylish and this recording represents some of the worst examples of this way of playing, I have heard. Also Sanderlings recording of this concerto with Hans Pischner (the East-German harpsichordist) is marked by a certain obstinacy and too many accents pr. bar. Maybe they may be partially forgiven, because this was to some extent the way Bach was played in Germany and Eastern Europe in the 1950es and 1960es (e.g Münchingers early Bach recordings). Never-the-less Sanderlings recording with Sviatoslav Richter makes IMO the best out of this "trait" creating a energy-loaden tense performance of great interest. I do not know the Richter / Talich recording.

Despite Edwin Fischer´s many other musical virtues I never considered him a true Bachian. I think he tended to "prettify" everything he touched resulting in a certain superficiality.

Gould´s recording bores me. He plays almost with cat´s paw´s and never really gets into the music. And his occational stressing of individual strands in the musical texture is IMO ridiculous.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 25, 2011, 07:16:50 AM
It's interesting (to me) to compare directly this old performance of the Afectuoso of Brandenburg 5 from Cortot with a more up to date one, like this one from the Linde Consort

Unfortunataly I can not hear your clips on my PC, but fortunately I own both recordings. I shall need to relisten to the Cortot recording before answering, but your conclusions sound reliable. Exactly overdone dynamic variation (when applied to Bach) is part of what is considered "romantic" Bach playing. What we gain aestetically by omitting romantic playing  is more stylish playing - yes, I know that some do not consider this a ligitimate goal by itself - but in Bach´s music the dynamic variations are more or less built into the musical structure and texture, so only discrete and well choosen variations in dynamics are needed on the part of the performer.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 25, 2011, 02:41:13 PM

One very striking difference is that Linde is relatively flat in terms of dynamics, Cortot much more varied.

Concerning the different dynamic variation in these two recordings it is important to remember, that the dynamic range of baroque instuments is more limited than the dynamic range of their romantic counterparts. Also the Baroque music generally operates with only two different dynamic levels, which are piano and forte. All other variations are either subtle variations of these two levels used for expressive purposes, or variations caused by thinning out or condensing the scoring and the musical texture. In the Affetuoso of the 5th Brandenburg concerto it is obvious, that the introductory and later recurring ritornel is scored for all three soloists in "dense"  texture (the harpsichord with figured bass), while the texture is thinned out considerably in the intervening episodes, the harpsichord playing only two parts, discant and bass, and the two other soloists alternates much of the time. Some harpsichordist´s (and pianist´s) habit of adding figured bass to these two parts even in the episodes must be considered unstylish, since this manner blurs the innate dynamic contrast between the ritornel and the episodes, making the overall structure of the movement indistinct.   
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2011, 02:46:38 PM
I'm starting to see how important balance is in these concertos. And how hard the balance issues are to resolve a piano.

If none of these suit, then Cafe Zimmermann seems to me to be undeniably excellent and lively -- but IMO incommesurable with the above fine piano performances. Not on youtube. Beautiful balances

I began to listen to this music played on harpsichord and then some violin reconstructions and, as you will suppose, some of these versions almost result unlisteneable for me... no offense intended, just reasons of balance and style. Even with Gould, one of the few pianists that I enjoy in some Bach's solo keyboard music.

Anyway, yesterday I was listening to an organ reconstruction of this concerto and I thought maybe you could be interested:

http://www.youtube.com/v/i1N1ZuGWmz4

Organ Concerto in d-minor (reconstruction)

1. Allegro

Christine Schornsheim, organ and the New Leipzig Collegium Musicum conducted by Max Pommer 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 25, 2011, 03:03:59 PM

Organ Concerto in d-minor (reconstruction)

Christine Schornsheim, organ and the New Leipzig Collegium Musicum conducted by Max Pommer

Link to recording (contains a number of other restored Bach-concrtos on 3 CDs):

http://www.amazon.de/Solo-Concertos-Solokonzerte-Schornsheim/dp/B0020MSTC2/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301094060&sr=1-17
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2011, 04:06:02 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S06NGAY9L.jpg)

Do you know if that box set is available somewhere, masolino? I have just seen the individual discs. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 25, 2011, 04:21:40 PM
Link to recording (contains a number of other restored Bach-concrtos on 3 CDs):

http://www.amazon.de/Solo-Concertos-Solokonzerte-Schornsheim/dp/B0020MSTC2/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301094060&sr=1-17

That set also includes a reconstruction for violin of the d-minor concerto.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2011, 10:21:00 PM
The Yudina / Sanderling is not only too slow but also too heavily accented - almost every semiquaver is stressed. This is indeed very unstylish


Can I just get clear about something before responding to you and Antoine more fully? This word stylish in English is normally a statement of value (something is said to be stylish if the speaker thinks the style is cool.) Is this what you mean -- or are you just intending to make a statement of fact (something is stylish if it corresponds to certain rules, practices)?

I do not know the Richter / Talich recording.

Please do feel free to take Richter/Talich in BWV 1052. It's  different from the one with Sanderling even though it was made roughly at the same time. (Talich = 1954; Sanderling = 1955)

http://www.mediafire.com/?x6v1b1watna7z
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 04:01:14 AM
Can I just get clear about something before responding to you and Antoine more fully? This word stylish in English is normally a statement of value (something is said to be stylish if the speaker thinks the style is cool.) Is this what you mean -- or are you just intending to make a statement of fact (something is stylish if it corresponds to certain rules, practices)?

Writing "unstylish" I may have translated the word too directly from Danish. What I mean is something like "in bad style" or "misguided".


Please do feel free to take Richter/Talich in BWV 1052. It's  different from the one with Sanderling even though it was made roughly at the same time. (Talich = 1954; Sanderling = 1955)

http://www.mediafire.com/?x6v1b1watna7z

Many thanks for this, which I just now have downloaded.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 04:19:05 AM
That set also includes a reconstruction for violin of the d-minor concerto.

Yes, played by the great Karl Suske.

Even if the organ version is authentic and the violin version strictly spoken is  not, the violin version - in several arbitrary arrangements (each musician makes his/her own)  is the one which is favoured by musicians and listeners -judged by the many realeased violin versions as opposed to the very few organ versions. OK,  of course you get some of the organ version in every Bach Sacred Cantata set.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
Do you know if that box set is available somewhere, masolino? I have just seen the individual discs.

Here at least:

http://www.amazon.de/Solokonzerte-Vol-Musica-Alta-Ripa/dp/B00006J9R9/ref=sr_1_29?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301142228&sr=1-29
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 05:18:44 AM
Yes, played by the great Karl Suske.

Even if the organ version is authentic and the violin version strictly spoken is  not, the violin version - in several arbitrary arrangements (each musician makes his/her own)  is the one which is favoured by musicians and listeners -judged by the many realeased violin versions as opposed to the very few organ versions. OK,  of course you get some of the organ version in every Bach Sacred Cantata set.

Yes, the violin version is finally just an assumption based on the supposed existence of an original violin concerto now lost. But listening to that concerto for harpsichord is a very strong assumption because it sounds extraordinarily violinistic. BTW, do you think that all the concertos for harpsichord(s) are "transcriptions" or some of them were written originally for harpsichord? (I mean when the source has not survived).

Karl Suske... that name appears one time and again. Not just here, but in the sonatas & partitas, the violin concertos, Beethoven's string quartets, some Schubert's chamber music. Considering his performance with Pommer, I need to look more closely his discs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 05:27:24 AM
Here at least:

http://www.amazon.de/Solokonzerte-Vol-Musica-Alta-Ripa/dp/B00006J9R9/ref=sr_1_29?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301142228&sr=1-29

Thanks, Premont. Yesterday I found that link, but unfortunaly AMP.de don't work for Chile or the USA. Anyway, I am not sure about if I will purchase some of those discs by Musica Alta Ripa, I mean they are a very competent ensemble, but I missed some "sacred fire" in their performances, which is another way to say that I found them a little bit monotonous; but I have just listened to some samples and the links provided by Masolino. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 05:45:52 AM
Yes, the violin version is finally just an assumption based on the supposed existence of an original violin concerto now lost. But listening to that concerto for harpsichord is a very strong assumption because it sounds extraordinarily violinistic. BTW, do you think that all the concertos for harpsichord(s) are "transcriptions" or some of them were written originally for harpsichord? (I mean when the source has not survived).

Probably, as usually assumed, the C-major concerto for two harpsichords BWV 1061 is conceived originally for keyboard instruments. The "reconstruction" of this concertos omitting the ripieno works IMO very well. I do not doubt, that the other "harpsichord" concertos were transcribed from versions for other instruments, but every reconstruction made to day implies an arbritrary element, - most reconstructors of the presumed violin concerto BWV 1052 get troubles with the cadenza in the end of the third movement, not only in reconstructing but also in playing - the reconstructor is most often the executing violinist him/herself.


Karl Suske... that name appears one time and again. Not just here, but in the sonatas & partitas, the violin concertos, Beethoven's string quartets, some Schubert's chamber music. Considering his performance with Pommer, I need to look more closely his discs.

His recording of Bach´s violin concertos is not recommendable, mainly because of Masur´s heavy and insensitive orchestral contribution (Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.), and I do not know the Schubert recordings.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 05:54:11 AM
Thanks, Premont. Yesterday I found that link, but unfortunaly AMP.de don't work for Chile or the USA. Anyway, I am not sure about if I will purchase some of those discs by Musica Alta Ripa, I mean they are a very competent ensemble, but I missed some "sacred fire" in their performances, which is another way to say that I found them a little bit monotonous; but I have just listened to some samples and the links provided by Masolino.

I own all five CDs, but have not listened to them since very long. As far as I recall they are a mixed bag, several of the interpretations being unmemorable.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 06:19:01 AM
I own all five CDs, but have not listened to them since very long. As far as I recall they are a mixed bag, several of the interpretations being unmemorable.

... that's my general impression, too. Although in the past I was very interested in their flute sonatas with Karl Kaiser.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 06:37:48 AM
Probably, as usually assumed, the C-major concerto for two harpsichords BWV 1061 is conceived originally for keyboard instruments. The "reconstruction" of this concertos omitting the ripieno works IMO very well. I do not doubt, that the other "harpsichord" concertos were transcribed from versions for other instruments, but every reconstruction made to day implies an arbritrary element, - most reconstructors of the presumed violin concerto BWV 1052 get troubles with the cadenza in the end of the third movement, not only in reconstructing but also in playing - the reconstructor is most often the executing violinist him/herself.

Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?

His recording of Bach´s violin concertos is not recommendable, mainly because of Masur´s heavy and insensitive orchestral contribution (Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.)
Quote

I have taken note.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 06:54:56 AM
Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?


I had forgotten this version by Robert Levin & Jeffrey Kahane:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UHUfCVhwL._SS500_.jpg)

BWV 1061a
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 26, 2011, 07:13:48 AM
Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?



From the top of my head I recall five

1)  Levin / Kahane              Hanssler Bach edition (you own this already)

2)  Hollmann / Lohr            MDG  (Alta Ripa complete concertos vol. 1)
 
3)  Belder / Stinders           Et Cetera (IRRC) (Dutch, from early 1990es)

4)  Hogwood / Rousset      L´Oiseau Lyre

5)  Bryndorf / Rasmussen   Danish Classico

If you want, I can supply further details, but this demands the  consulting of my shelfs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 07:25:40 AM


From the top of my head I recall five

1)  Levin / Kahane              Hanssler Bach edition (you own this already)

2)  Hollmann / Lohr            MDG  (Alta Ripa complete concertos vol. 1)
 
3)  Belder / Stinders           Et Cetera (IRRC) (Dutch, from early 1990es)

4)  Hogwood / Rousset      L´Oiseau Lyre

5)  Bryndorf / Rasmussen   Danish Classico

If you want, I can supply further details, but this demands the  consulting of my shelfs.

Yes, I just own the Levin/Kahane, but with that info I will do some research. Thanks!  :)

BTW, I found this link with the American harpsichordists Peter Sykes and Mahan Esfahani performing BWV 1061a:

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/-803/episodes/-15435

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2011, 12:18:59 AM


Despite Edwin Fischer´s many other musical virtues I never considered him a true Bachian. I think he tended to "prettify" everything he touched resulting in a certain superficiality.



Take one of my favourite Edwin  Fischer Bach recordings -- BWV 1053.

Certainly the Siciliano is beautiful, but ideas like "prettify" make it sound weak. But I think that at times the performance is quite steely and dynamic To my ears at least, nothing could be further from the truth than your suggestion of "a certain superficiality" . For depth of feeling, I have never heard deeper. One I have heard that comes close is Zuzana Ruzickova's  wonderful harpsichord recording with Neumann.


One general difficulty I have in responding to you is that you're so confident in your judgements about who is and who is not "a true Bachian". I guess these perceptions, or intuitions, ground your judgements about what is and what is not "stylish".

You know, he had two wives and 20 kids -- a bit of romance may be in order :)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 27, 2011, 03:14:04 AM
One general difficulty I have in responding to you is that you're so confident in your judgements about what is and what is not "a true Bachian". I guess these perceptions, or intuitions, ground your judgements about what is and what is not "stylish".

In the light of the historical information there is something which is "bad style" per definition, but other things are of course a matter of taste.  My longtime intensive interest in Bach´s music has of course resulted in some ideas about what is good style and what is bad style, but this isn´t but my opinion, which some share and others do not. I do not pretend that my taste is "better" than others. My remark about E Fischer said : "I never considered" and this already says that I just express my own taste.

I have listened to the Richter / Talich BWV 1052 you uploaded for me. IMO played with delicate restraint but still with rhytmic alertness and great tension beneath the surface. And I very much like the way Richter plays the complete middle  (solo-) section of the slow movement piano with only subtle dynamic variations. All in all a refreshing anti-romantic interpretation. Thanks once more for making it accessible to me. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: PaulSC on March 27, 2011, 08:32:00 AM
In the light of the historical information there is something which is "bad style" per definition
Without wanting to be argumentative, I'd say that's not quite right: the historical record is indeed clear enough to enable us to judge some performance styles as inauthentic (or less authentic), but whether this makes those styles "bad" is still a matter of individual taste.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2011, 09:36:13 AM

I have listened to the Richter / Talich BWV 1052 you oploaded for me. IMO played with delicate restraint but still with rhytmic alertness and great tension beneath the surface. And I very much like the way Richter plays the complete middle  (solo-) section of the slow movement piano with only subtle dynamic variations. All in all a refreshing anti-romantic interpretation. Thanks once more for making it accessible to me.

Glad you like it. It is one of my favourite Richter recordings.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 27, 2011, 10:15:17 AM
Without wanting to be argumentative, I'd say that's not quite right: the historical record is indeed clear enough to enable us to judge some performance styles as inauthentic (or less authentic), but whether this makes those styles "bad" is still a matter of individual taste.

Well, call it authentic /  inauthentic, if you want. These words cover rather well what I meant.
Maybe though the problem is, that I do not have the full understanding of the word "style".
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 27, 2011, 10:16:08 AM
Glad you like it. It is one of my favourite Richter recordings.

And now also one of mine  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on April 10, 2011, 12:27:30 PM
Is there any recording of this concerto just for two harpsichords, without strings (ripieno)?


There is the Plectra recording of Moroney and Flint.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on April 10, 2011, 12:39:58 PM
I wonder if anyone has an opinion of this recording:
Bach: Concertos pour clavecin
Béatrice Martin

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7wVkpeWL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2011, 02:04:28 PM
Sorry, I need help with the image/link posting. I apologize.

I wonder if we need to use Firefox instead of IE to get the image/link posting done.  I have not had any success since the site was last upated and I use IE.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on April 10, 2011, 10:23:06 PM
I wonder if we need to use Firefox instead of IE to get the image/link posting done.  I have not had any success since the site was last upated and I use IE.

I did get a message explaining this more from the moderator. Hopefully I can pull it off next time!
I'm thinking of getting the Martin recording.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on April 16, 2011, 05:25:56 AM
I wonder if anyone has an opinion of this recording:
Bach: Concertos pour clavecin
Béatrice Martin

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7wVkpeWL._SS500_.jpg)

I did get this recording by the way. I like the sound quality but I don't know what I think of the interpretations yet. Itunes has every track mis-labelled! This recording does remind me how much I love the plectra recording!

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 27, 2011, 12:23:42 AM
Speaking of the Plectra recording...

.



This is all I could ever want for - a dream come true - it is as if the Leonhardt Consort's old (1968! :o) Teldec set has been re-recorded, but then in better sound (though nor recorded in the studio), with better sounding instruments and taking the developments in HIP-pratices of the 4 decades that lie in between on board: more elaborate variation in phrasing, some embellishments here and there. What the sets share is the ultra-direct, penetrating approach in a very small setting: only 5 strings and two recorders are used to join in the harpsichords. And a catching joie de vivre, when the listener becomes used to the in your-face-quality of the performance and recording. 1st time listeners that are used to more "plush" Bach, might be taken aback by the seemingly barren and dead-earnest, almost mechanical sounding musical image.
Harpsichords used: Nicolas Dumont, Paris, 1707; Johannes Ruckers, Antwerp, 1635; an anonymous Spanish instrument, formerly owned by Rafael Puyana, ca. 1700/25; an Italian harpsichord of the late 16th/early 17 century, ascribed to Domenico of Pessaro and also owned by Rafael Puyana.

A more than worthy successor the the Leonhardt set - pretty definitive, for me at least! :)

A luke-warm ("interesting release, worth hearing") Fanfare review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=230634).

It seems that various reviewers respond quite differently: "a very rewarding set and the relaxed, informal style of the music-making seems very close to what Bach probably heard when he and his sons originally played these concertos." (review on allmusic (http://www.allmusic.com/album/johann-sebastian-bach-complete-harpsichord-concertos-on-antique-instruments-w192152/review))

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
Speaking of the Plectra recording...

.



This is all I could ever want for - a dream come true - it is as if the Leonhardt Consort's old (1968! :o) Teldec set has been re-recorded, but then in better sound (though nor recorded in the studio), with better sounding instruments and taking the developments in HIP-pratices of the 4 decades that lie in between on board: more elaborate variation in phrasing, some embellishments here and there. What the sets share is the ultra-direct, penetrating approach in a very small setting: only 5 strings and two recorders are used to join in the harpsichords. And a catching joie de vivre, when the listener becomes used to the in your-face-quality of the performance and recording. 1st time listeners that are used to more "plush" Bach, might be taken aback by the seemingly barren and dead-earnest, almost mechanical sounding musical image.
Harpsichords used: Nicolas Dumont, Paris, 1707; Johannes Ruckers, Antwerp, 1635; an anonymous Spanish instrument, formerly owned by Rafael Puyana, ca. 1700/25; an Italian harpsichord of the late 16th/early 17 century, ascribed to Domenico of Pessaro and also owned by Rafael Puyana.

A more than worthy successor the the Leonhardt set - pretty definitive, for me at least! :)

A luke-warm ("interesting release, worth hearing") Fanfare review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=230634).

It seems that various reviewers respond quite differently: "a very rewarding set and the relaxed, informal style of the music-making seems very close to what Bach probably heard when he and his sons originally played these concertos." (review on allmusic (http://www.allmusic.com/album/johann-sebastian-bach-complete-harpsichord-concertos-on-antique-instruments-w192152/review))

Q

Time for a second listen for me ...    ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 29, 2011, 07:51:46 AM
Just received the American Record Guide, Jan-Feb 2012 issue - there was a rather pompous and self-righteous review by the editor Mr. Vroon commenting on the 4-CD set below of a number of Bach's orchestral works.

Despite the derogatory jives about the 'period movement', the set is of interest to me after finding other reviews on the web - I'm unfamiliar w/ these performances but would appreciate any comments from those in the know -  :)  Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bAMAggIOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on December 29, 2011, 08:08:39 AM
Dave, have you attached any file(s) with your previous post? I see a paper clip icon on top of your post, but I don't see any attachments.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on December 29, 2011, 08:32:21 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00285QBXK.01_SL75_.jpg)
Yes! 100% agree! A must-have disc!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2011, 08:50:39 AM
. . .  A must-have disc!

Which of the three? ; )
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 29, 2011, 09:21:17 AM
Dave, have you attached any file(s) with your previous post? I see a paper clip icon on top of your post, but I don't see any attachments.

Hi Navneeth - I attempted an attachment (just a text file from Notepad) but comes in as a *.php - let me try again (the file in the attachment window is listed as 'Bach_ARG_Vroon.txt) - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on December 29, 2011, 05:56:10 PM
Which of the three? ; )
"set/box/album/download/recording/release"
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on December 29, 2011, 10:41:50 PM
Hi Navneeth - I attempted an attachment (just a text file from Notepad) but comes in as a *.php - let me try again (the file in the attachment window is listed as 'Bach_ARG_Vroon.txt) - Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. I have it now. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on January 01, 2012, 01:19:34 PM
Just received the American Record Guide, Jan-Feb 2012 issue - there was a rather pompous and self-righteous review by the editor Mr. Vroon commenting on the 4-CD set below of a number of Bach's orchestral works.

Despite the derogatory jives about the 'period movement', the set is of interest to me after finding other reviews on the web - I'm unfamiliar w/ these performances but would appreciate any comments from those in the know -  :)  Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bAMAggIOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I will pass on this set ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2012, 06:56:51 PM
I will pass on this set ...

Hi Stuart - that was my feeling also; unless others respond in the positive?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on February 18, 2012, 06:54:38 PM
Speaking of the Plectra recording...

.



This is all I could ever want for - a dream come true - it is as if the Leonhardt Consort's old (1968! :o) Teldec set has been re-recorded, but then in better sound (though nor recorded in the studio), with better sounding instruments and taking the developments in HIP-pratices of the 4 decades that lie in between on board: more elaborate variation in phrasing, some embellishments here and there. What the sets share is the ultra-direct, penetrating approach in a very small setting: only 5 strings and two recorders are used to join in the harpsichords. And a catching joie de vivre, when the listener becomes used to the in your-face-quality of the performance and recording. 1st time listeners that are used to more "plush" Bach, might be taken aback by the seemingly barren and dead-earnest, almost mechanical sounding musical image.
Harpsichords used: Nicolas Dumont, Paris, 1707; Johannes Ruckers, Antwerp, 1635; an anonymous Spanish instrument, formerly owned by Rafael Puyana, ca. 1700/25; an Italian harpsichord of the late 16th/early 17 century, ascribed to Domenico of Pessaro and also owned by Rafael Puyana.

A more than worthy successor the the Leonhardt set - pretty definitive, for me at least! :)

I dug up this thread looking to comment on this recording, and I must say that this post saved me some typing.  I wholeheartedly agree about the greatness of this set!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on February 22, 2012, 11:34:20 PM
What's the word on this newcomer? :) Sounds pretty interesting to me.



Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 04:16:02 AM
As these Orchestral Suites (and their early/alternative versions) have been intensely explored by the discography in recent years, maybe an accurate reply would require to comment some four versions at the same time:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822252217124.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020211328.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5400439005808.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000619.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 04:30:43 AM
Don't forget, among recent recordings, that Café Zimmermann included the Suites in their complete set of the "Concerts avec plusieurs instruments"...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zX2OOOaiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh, yes, this set includes the Orchestral Suites, but it began to be recorded and released more than ten years ago...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2012, 04:32:34 AM
As these Orchestral Suites (and their early/alternative versions) have been intensely explored by the discography in the last years, maybe an accurate reply would require to comment some four versions at the same time:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822252217124.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3149020211328.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5400439005808.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0885470000619.jpg)

Quote
John Elliot Gardiner recorded the Suites in 1983 (has it already been thirty years?!) for Erato. The playing of the English Baroque Soloists is very good even by today’s standards… in itself astonishing, given how other perfectly reputable HIP ensembles sometimes sounded at the time. I reviewed Monica Hugget’s recording on Avie (with the fullest, richest sound of this lot) last year; a wonderful recording notable for replacing the flute in the second Suite with an oboe, making due without trumpets and timpani, and fitting all four Suites onto one disc by skipping repeats in the Overtures. The 1996 recording of the Academy for Ancient Music Berlin (AAMB) has been my standard against which to measure all newcomers in this less-crowded-than-might-be-expected field and it remains a consistently beautifully played performance without kinks or extremes.

Musings on the Hugget here: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=630 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=630)
On the Concerto Cologne here: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2565 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2565) (sound samples unfortunately defunct)
Can't muster a review of the newcomer yet. But obviously attractive. Looks like the Suites are finally getting their attention... they seem to have been lagging behind the Brandenburgs considerably, as far as quantity of good available recordings were concerned.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 04:53:33 AM
Musings on the Hugget here: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=630 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=630)
On the Concerto Cologne here: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2565 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2565) (sound samples unfortunately defunct)
Can't muster a review of the newcomer yet. But obviously attractive. Looks like the Suites are finally getting their attention... they seem to have been lagging behind the Brandenburgs considerably, as far as quantity of good available recordings were concerned.

Just the last week, I was re-listening to the Orchestral Suites by MAK and, I must say, I was very pleased with that version, even in matter of tempi. It's as it had been recorded yesterday. Then I thought to give another chance to Fasolis, but I was afraid.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 05:00:49 AM
. Looks like the Suites are finally getting their attention... they seem to have been lagging behind the Brandenburgs considerably, as far as quantity of good available recordings were concerned.

Oh no, there have been lots of fine HIP recordings of the suites during the years:

Harnoncourt 1, Harnoncourt 2, Linde Consort, Pinnock 1, Pinnock 2, Koopman 1, Koopman 2, Hogwood, Goebel, Parrott, Kuijken, Goodman, Gardiner, Haselböck, AAM Berlin, Pickett, Brüggen, Suzuki, Rampe, Pearlman among others.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on February 27, 2012, 09:45:15 AM
A question regarding Fasolis's recording of the Brandenburg Concertos:  Is this a small ensemble recording like Egarr's  or is it a larger ensemble like many previous recordings?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2012, 11:27:54 AM
(On Fasolis) Small ensemble. The scoring is closely followed. I think his ripieno is a bit more populated than Egarr's.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scion7 on February 27, 2012, 12:15:18 PM
For the Orchestral Suites,  I've been quite happy with this one:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/94/1220794.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Scion7 on February 27, 2012, 12:20:08 PM
And I have a few downloads of the Brandenburg/Harpsichord/Violin concerti grossi,
but these vinyl sets are the ones regularly played in my home:

(http://s13.postimage.org/7dbfr4uxz/r_BACH_vinyl_boxsets.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 07:02:57 AM
Any recommendations on period instrument recordings of the violin and oboe concertos?  Small ensembles are preferred.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2012, 03:34:26 PM
I'm not sure if you're speaking about the concerto BWV 1060R (as you used the plural, and that concerto is a reconstruction from a concerto for 2 harpsichords) but if it is the case I would recommend the Café Zimmermann recording, even more since you asked for small ensembles (better to avoid Collegium Aureum with Leonhardt then ;D )

The Cafe Zimmermann recording seconded.

As to the DHM recording you refer to: To my knowledge Leonhardt has nothing to do with this recording of BWV 1060R, which is led by Franz Josef Maier. The harpsichord continuo player is Bob van Asperen, who also played harpsichord solo in BWV 1044 in the original release (of BWV 1060R and BWV 1044 together on one LP) - this was at least what the LP label said. Later these two concertos were released on CD with the BWV 1052 with Leonhardt as a filler.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 03, 2012, 04:16:33 PM
The Cafe Zimmermann recording seconded.

As to the DHM recording you refer to: To my knowledge Leonhardt has nothing to do with this recording of BWV 1060R, which is led by Franz Josef Maier. The harpsichord continuo player is Bob van Asperen, who also played harpsichord solo in BWV 1044 in the original release (of BWV 1060R and BWV 1044 together on one LP) - this was at least what the LP label said. Later these two concertos were released on CD with the BWV 1052 with Leonhardt as a filler.

Not to mention the fact that maybe BWV 1053, BWV 1055 or BWV 1059 (fragment) were also originally oboe/oboe d'amore concerti.

Additionally, I think that the Collegium Aureum's disc shouldn't be easily discarded because it's a great example of Franz Joseph Maier's ensemble, with some amazing soloists.

I think some fine options for the reconstructed oboe concerti would be:



... small ensemble, no-nonsense performance and the best Baroque oboist ever: Marcel Ponseele. I also like this one:

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/BIS-CD-961.jpg)

But it only includes BWV 1060R.

And this one played on modern instruments, but totally HIP:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0636943416921.jpg)



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on March 03, 2012, 04:20:23 PM
I'm not sure if you're speaking about the concerto BWV 1060R (as you used the plural, and that concerto is a reconstruction from a concerto for 2 harpsichords) but if it is the case I would recommend the Café Zimmermann recording, even more since you asked for small ensembles (better to avoid Collegium Aureum with Leonhardt then ;D )

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  I was looking for the concertos for oboe and the concertos for violin.  I'll look into the disks that have been recorded.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 03, 2012, 05:18:12 PM
OK, so I can complete what has already been said about reconstructions. On the 2 violin concertos, and the concerto for two violins, there are many recordings but actually a few only are really convincing, I always found it quite disturbing that these concertos are not as well played than their harpsichord transcriptions for example. So I would recommend Huggett & Bury with Koopman on Erato, and Manze & Podger on HM. But even these recordings are not entirely satisfactory for me, I'm still waiting a new one to fall for...
Café Zimmermann would of course be another solution, but violin concertos are not the strongest of their recordings (anyway, everyone MUST have this box, so you'll decide by yourself ;) )

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BSJGWXTQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W2Z63W8HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But even if you love HIP performances, and can't stand the others, there is one recording of the double concerto you can't miss, by Heifetz and Erick Friedman. Seriously, why avoid such a pleasure ?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61tbA29vUaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I do not have the recording by Heifetz and Erick Friedman but do have the other two HIP recordings.  Among the non-HIP recordings, the one by Mutter and Accardo is quite ooutstanding IMO ...






Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 03, 2012, 05:18:53 PM
On the 2 violin concertos, and the concerto for two violins, there are many recordings but actually a few only are really convincing,

Yes, it's quite curious, indeed... I will maybe listen to Kuijken/ van Dael tonight.  :)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 03, 2012, 11:53:09 PM
Yes, it's quite curious, indeed... I will maybe listen to Kuijken/ van Dael tonight.  :)



The recording by Kuijken is my winner! :) Still going strong, we might say. Koopman/Huggett is OK, avoid Manze/Podger...

Another vote for Cafe Zimmerann's recording of the oboe concertos BTW. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
This is another attractive option for the violin concertos and several reconstructions of lost violin concertos, including the concerto for violin and oboe:



Its price is unbeatable.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Shrunk on March 04, 2012, 07:21:27 AM
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but does anyone have opinions on Rachel Podger's recent recording of the violin concertos?

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on March 04, 2012, 07:58:16 AM
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but does anyone have opinions on Rachel Podger's recent recording of the violin concertos?



Have it, but nothing very memorable about it.
I notice that Que advised against the Manze/Podger recording of the concertos, so I'll counter with a hearty vote for them--they are probably my favorite recording of these works.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on June 08, 2012, 05:15:21 PM
(http://a-static.musicload-shop.de/cov/m/230/180/c/9/bctipo_t4o4sz73trtf4l5vco54sdskyu/haynes-brandenburg-concertos-nos-7-12-eric-milnes.jpg)
I'm curious what people think of this.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 10:00:54 AM
I'm enjoying Brandenburg 4 on this Harnoncourt DVD a lot, possibly more than I've ever enjoyed a Brandenburg 4.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wQs2%2BXkLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I started to get interested in that concerto because of reading this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F0qSu9SHL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU02_AA160_.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 11, 2012, 11:31:56 AM
I'm enjoying Brandenburg 4 on this Harnoncourt DVD a lot, possibly more than I've ever enjoyed a Brandenburg 4.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wQs2%2BXkLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I started to get interested in that concerto because of reading this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F0qSu9SHL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU02_AA160_.jpg)

Would you mind to tell how no. 4 is special in a social and religious respect as compared to no.1-3 and 5-6?

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2012, 12:25:42 PM
Briefly, the book talks a lot about 4, the first movement of 5, and 6. The idea is in all these cases that JSB allowed an instrument which was conventionally low down in a contemporary hierarchy (harpsichord, recorder and viola) to take a very leading role. And consequently the music is a sort of metaphor for challenging hierarchies -- the music is a metaphor for social equality. 

As far as religion is concerned, he acknowledges that JSB, following Luther, had a very hierarchical view of both music and society in this world (he points to some margin notes in JSB's bible, the nature of JSBs disputes with his work colleagues.) But he thinks that JSB, again following Luther, thought that in paradise there are no hierarchies of people. So ultimately these concertos are a model of the social organisation of the next world, not a revolutionary document for this one.

There's a lot of material in the book about the unity of the concertos -- whether they make an integrated set -- which I've only skimmed through so far.

I've found it an interesting read and it has certainly stimulated me to go on a Brandenburg binge. Your posts have been very helpful, premont, so thanks once again for having posted. I find myself enjoying Egarr's 5th for example (and yes, even the cadenza. Do yo enjoy it more now that a couple of years ago?) And some of Kuijken's second set too -- 6 and of course 3 and 4. Spotify makes all these recordings so easy to access!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Octave on December 26, 2012, 12:09:55 AM
Thanks to everyone for this great thread!  So many great recommendations; I am despondent.

I'm thinking of getting Benjamin Britten's Brandenburgs, simply because I'm under the impression that they're a benchmark recording that I might turn to occasionally with great pleasure, for the the rest of my life.  (For the moment, different approaches and newer recordings might be my greater enthusiasm, most recently the 3-SACD Suzuki collection on BIS, coupled with the Orchestral Suites...extremely beautiful, and a real highlight of my listening year.)  Regarding the Britten recordings, could anyone tell me if there's any advantage in sound or content, to getting the 2008 Eloquence reissue, compared to the older Decca Double?  It seems that perhaps the Eloquence edition is missing a couple concertos (conducted by Marriner?) included on the Double; hard to tell without holding a copy in my hands, because there are different listing at Amazon and Arkiv.

I don't know if all the Eloquence editions are newly remastered (I don't think they all are), but is this one?  Also curious about the extra material on the Eloquence; is it worth having?  (See label blurb below.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51krqnJplLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513k4qZdMvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Label hype for the Eloquence:
Quote
A unique release filling out britten's voluble performances of the brandenburg concertos with the english chamber orchestra with the very rare lp issued by decca of 'the 1953 aldeburgh festival opening concert'. It contains the much sought-after sellinger's round (variations on an elizabethan theme) conducted by britten, as well as odes and anthems by purcell and arne, featuring alfred deller and sir peter pears, conducted by imogen holst. The disc ends with four 'bonus tracks' that comprised a decca ep: sir adrian boult conducting bach's air from the orchestral suite no. 3 and bantock's arrangement of 'sheep may safely graze' plus britten conducting clarke's trumpet voluntary and his own, very beautiful arrangement of god save the queen. A true collector's item! Artists: alfred deller (countertenor), peter pears (tenor). Conductors: sir adrian boult, benjamin britten, imogen holst.

I think I am actually more excited to try out a number of other BC recordings, HIP and otherwise; but the Britten is one I thought I should have as well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on March 23, 2013, 08:25:38 AM
(http://a-static.musicload-shop.de/cov/m/230/180/c/9/bctipo_t4o4sz73trtf4l5vco54sdskyu/haynes-brandenburg-concertos-nos-7-12-eric-milnes.jpg)
I'm curious what people think of this.

It is excellent, milk!  Really enjoyable in every way.

A recent purchase that I am enjoying very much:


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on March 23, 2013, 10:33:56 AM
(http://www.discorder.com/images/covers/b/M/2/M21959.jpg)
I wonder if anyone has noticed this new recording.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on March 23, 2013, 10:39:00 AM
I wonder if anyone has noticed this new recording.

Noticed? Yes. (Antoine Shumway posted the image in the new releases thread somewhere, a few weeks ago.) Heard? I don't know.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2013, 10:42:22 AM
(http://www.discorder.com/images/covers/b/M/2/M21959.jpg)
I wonder if anyone has noticed this new recording.

The tempos by the Freiburger tends to be pretty fast IMO.  I have a few of their recordings plus DVD but do not have this particular one and do not have any intention to get it either since I already have many great versions of the Bach Violin Concertos ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on March 23, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
Yes, Freiburger are always quite zippy (I've got their Mozart, Mendelssohn and CPE Bach). Judging from the samples, this one is no exception. Both the Freiburger and the "Concerto Reconstructions" recording have the Concerto in D Major for three violins - just a note that may be of interest.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Coopmv on March 24, 2013, 05:40:52 AM
Yes, Freiburger are always quite zippy (I've got their Mozart, Mendelssohn and CPE Bach). Judging from the samples, this one is no exception. Both the Freiburger and the "Concerto Reconstructions" recording have the Concerto in D Major for three violins - just a note that may be of interest.

Check out the version by Gidon Kremer.  He was very fast too ...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: elotito on May 26, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
I wonder if anyone could help me find a recording for the concertos.

At the moment I have a recording of this one with Glenn Gould:

(http://i.imgur.com/O06sZD0.jpg)

I'm not a big fan of Gould generally but I love this recording. The only problem is that it sounds terrible. I've recently listened to Fasolis & I Barocchisti's Brandenburgs and also Fabio Biondi's Four Seasons, both of which have really opened my eyes to modern, well recorded performances. I love the energy in both of these, not to mention the audio fidelity.

I was think about this one but I don't know if it is in the same in the same vein as Biondi and Fasolis:

(http://i.imgur.com/rs2i5lt.png?1)

I heard Pinnock's recording of them but somehow it didn't beat Gould for me.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2013, 02:31:33 AM
I've recently listened to Fasolis & I Barocchisti's Brandenburgs and also Fabio Biondi's Four Seasons, both of which have really opened my eyes to modern, well recorded performances. I love the energy in both of these, not to mention the audio fidelity.

I was think about this one but I don't know if it is in the same in the same vein as Biondi and Fasolis:

(http://i.imgur.com/rs2i5lt.png?1)


Uhm... no. Perrahia isn't anything like Fasolis or Biondi... not even in spirit, if you discount the obvious difference that one is played on a (plucked) string instrument and the other on a percussion instrument.

I've got Martin Stadtfeld, Perrahia, Tharaud, and Sebastian Knauer (includes Family members of JSB) in front of me... all four with the piano, all four with some degree of nominal nod towards HIP.... Let's exclude Stadtfeld right of the bat (yeesh)... I find that Tharaud / Labadie / and Les Violons du Roy are the most spirited, the most playful.

Still, my favorite modern Piano/Chamber Orchestra version must be Hewitt's... at least the second volume of it: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mszczuj on May 27, 2013, 08:25:25 AM
I've recently listened to Fasolis & I Barocchisti's Brandenburgs and also Fabio Biondi's Four Seasons, both of which have really opened my eyes to modern, well recorded performances.

I would say you are looking for this box:

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 27, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
I wonder if anyone could help me find a recording for the concertos.
I'm not a big fan of Gould generally but I love this recording. The only problem is that it sounds terrible. I've recently listened to Fasolis & I Barocchisti's Brandenburgs and also Fabio Biondi's Four Seasons, both of which have really opened my eyes to modern, well recorded performances. I love the energy in both of these, not to mention the audio fidelity.

I think mszczuj is right in his recommendation.

But if you want a piano rendering, this one is my best choice:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Klavierkonzerte-BWV-10441052-10581060-1065/hnum/9829348
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on May 27, 2013, 12:03:46 PM
I would say you are looking for this box:



Agreed.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on May 27, 2013, 12:16:38 PM
I think mszczuj is right in his recommendation.

But if you want a piano rendering, this one is my best choice:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Klavierkonzerte-BWV-10441052-10581060-1065/hnum/9829348

Which, in a different format, is currently on sale at Arkvmusic for $9.99 as part of its offer on EMI Triples.

For my own part, I like both Hewitt and Perahia,  but I vastly prefer these works played on harpsichord--in which guise, the Moroney and co. set  is superb.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Bogey on May 27, 2013, 04:32:57 PM
This is another attractive option for the violin concertos and several reconstructions of lost violin concertos, including the concerto for violin and oboe:



Its price is unbeatable.

With Greg, I give this the third rec.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: elotito on May 28, 2013, 05:35:51 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, I'm going to check out that box set.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 28, 2013, 10:47:35 AM
I have a couple of different recordings of Brandenburg Concertos and would be interested in what others recommend. Thanks in advance. I especially value the opinions of the "old timers" here, although I am one myself in age only---but I am only a novice in the area of classical music, even though I have been listening for years. I find it an endless area of exploration.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Brewski on May 28, 2013, 11:09:06 AM
I love this one, with Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano: HIP, lean and very fast, with terrific recorded sound.



--Bruce
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: MishaK on May 28, 2013, 11:12:02 AM
Alessandrini is nice, but this is far and away my favorite.



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Brewski on May 28, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
Alessandrini is nice, but this is far and away my favorite.



Ah, I'd love to hear this, since they basically brought Vivaldi back from the dead for me.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: MishaK on May 28, 2013, 11:17:19 AM
Ah, I'd love to hear this, since they basically brought Vivaldi back from the dead for me.

They do exactly that with the Brandenburgs as well. Makes you want to leap out of your chair and dance - or whistle along full blast.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Parsifal on May 28, 2013, 01:34:48 PM
I love this one, with Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano: HIP, lean and very fast, with terrific recorded sound.



--Bruce

This is superb, I also like



and it's companion disc.  Then there's this, mostly for the slow movements



That's the 60's recording.  There's also an 80's recording which is a horror.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on May 28, 2013, 03:12:30 PM
Alessandrini is nice, but this is far and away my favorite.



This is a splendid recommendation, however, for just a few dollars more, this 11 CD boxed set is the way to go imo:



I also like the Allessandrini and have yet to hear the Fasolis, but I am pretty sure it is top-shelf. . .

Welcome to the forum, dave b!  You specifically ask for rec.'s from "old timers" here and well, I'm a "new timer" but I have a decent Bach Brandenburg collection (the work is my favorite and Bach is my favorite composer).

My first choice in Brandenburg's  is from the Berlin Academy of Ancient Music, available in it's latest iteration, under the HM Gold imprint:


*Do search for earlier versions, released as two individual releases (Odds and Evens by disc), for possibly greater savings. . .

My next choice would be this one from Savall and Company:



An elegant, Period Instrument version, with an all-star cast of performers.  A fine turn by Pierre Hantai in the harpsichord cadenza in the 5th Concerto is one of many highlights here.

Lastly, is this very comprehensive 6 CD set by Cafe Zimmermann.  I recently received this as a gift and it is incredible!  Highly recommended:



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 29, 2013, 03:01:33 PM
Thanks for the welcome, and the info, HIPster, much appreciated...
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on May 29, 2013, 03:22:26 PM

My first choice in Brandenburg's  is from the Berlin Academy of Ancient Music, available in it's latest iteration, under the HM Gold imprint:

I haven't heard that many Brandenburg sets, but that's a great one. (Comparable IMHO to that vinyl-only Smithsonian set I just rediscovered.)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2013, 03:25:27 PM
I have a couple of different recordings of Brandenburg Concertos and would be interested in what others recommend. Thanks in advance. I especially value the opinions of the "old timers" here, although I am one myself in age only---but I am only a novice in the area of classical music, even though I have been listening for years. I find it an endless area of exploration.
Which recordings do you have and what do you like/dislike about them?  Several recommendations here have been first-rate, IMO. I've mostly loved HIPsters, last I knew I preferred Il Giardino Armonico to Savall, Alessandrini, and the Berlin Academy of Old Musick, and a couple of days ago I heard Abbado's recent outing and liked it very much.

I can hardly imagine anything more deadly to the joyful spirit of Bach than Herbie the K. This stuff should be light, lithe, lively, and limber!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 29, 2013, 03:28:18 PM
One of them I'll have to look for, the other is right here--Trevor Pinnock, European Brandenburg Ensemble, Avie LC 11982. A 2 CD set.

The other is a two CD set also, Boston Baroque.
But not having much experience with this (classical music), I value the opinions and recommendations of you folks.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 29, 2013, 03:31:08 PM
I'm very interested in one recommendation in particular, the Berlin Academy of Ancient Music.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2013, 03:39:02 PM
But not having much experience with this (classical music), I value the opinions and recommendations of you folks.

If you haven't done so already you might consider joining Mog or Spotify for $5/mo and Naxos for $20 year.  That'll let you listen to a terrific selection of recordings to discover what you like for yourself without spending a small fortune to acquire numerous recommendations.

I'm very interested in one recommendation in particular, the Berlin Academy of Ancient Music.
They're a little fast and harsh for my tastes today, but there's no debating that it's a good set.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 29, 2013, 03:44:56 PM
Good idea about joining those sites, will PM you about it in a second.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 29, 2013, 03:51:15 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610y3CGvsrL._SS300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613EU-e-ykL._SY300__.jpg)


These are two fine performances, but a little warning, don't get both. With the exception of little textural difference, these two are very similar in style and timbre. And almost identical in tempo. Don't get me wrong, this is not a negative comment on them. But I am now myself in the market for another Brandenburg set (seriously closing in on Concerto Italiano on Naive) because I am in need of a bit more variety.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 29, 2013, 03:55:58 PM
I see where DavidRoss' advice about listening first, then buying or not buying, could come in mighty handy.
I had not realized there were those kinds of differences. I continue to learn....
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on May 29, 2013, 06:34:27 PM
I would also recommend that Tafelmusik set as a good start, though you can't go wrong with I Barocchisti, either, and the two would make a nice contrast.

In any case, if it helps your decision, the Tafelmusik set is available for an excellent price off the MP:

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on May 29, 2013, 06:40:00 PM
A nice DVD version:



Editorial Reviews
While functioning as Kapellmeister to the court of Prince Leopold, J.S. Bach composed the Baroque masterworks known as the "Brandenburg Concertos." This delightful performance of the orchestral works by the Freiburger Barockorchester takes place in the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Cothen, where the composer himself served in the 18th century. 95 min. Widescreen (Enhanced); Soundtracks: English Dolby Digital 5.1, PCM stereo.

Also - the Abbado recommended above is available as a DVD too, though I have not yet heard (or seen) it.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2013, 06:48:19 PM
Whoops...I made a mistake, thinking of Musica Antiqua Köln, not the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, as a bit rushed and harsh in my comment above. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on May 29, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
Whoops...I made a mistake, thinking of Musica Antiqua Köln, not the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin, as a bit rushed and harsh in my comment above.

I hear you, man and do agree with you!

Not MAK's finest moment by any means, though I think that this set does have some merits.  Only a few of the sections are rushed (off the top of my head: #3 and #6 fall prey to some bizarre tempi choices).

Still, I think it is worth hearing and owning.  I recommend this version, for a nice price via the Market Place:

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on May 29, 2013, 07:14:02 PM
I hear you, man and do agree with you!

Not MAK's finest moment by any means, though I think that this set does have some merits.  Only a few of the sections are rushed (off the top of my head: #3 and #6 fall prey to some bizarre tempi choices).

Still, I think it is worth hearing and owning.  I recommend this version, for a nice price via the Market Place:



That was my very first recording of the Brandenburgs, and it was the exact qualities of rapidity and harshness that impressed me then.  In the format I had it, it was probably the original CD release.

One recording I haven't seen mentioned is the English Baroque Soloists,  which I particularly liked.   Gardiner conducts some of the concertos, but with several of the works he just stepped aside and let the EBS play it as a chamber ensemble.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on May 29, 2013, 07:18:27 PM
[quote author=Jeffrey Smith link=topic=21842.msg719753#msg719753 date=1369887242
One recording I haven't seen mentioned is the English Baroque Soloists,  which I particularly liked.   Gardiner conducts some of the concertos, but with several of the works he just stepped aside and let the EBS play it as a chamber ensemble.
[/quote]

High on my list to check out Jeffrey!

Thanks for the mention.  Any other distinguishing features you want to share would be most welcome.  :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2013, 03:49:06 AM
Well, there you go - those qualities are the ones that I find particularly ugly in these works.   A graceful embrace of the music with a light quality, an unhurried but certainly not sluggish, tempo is how I prefer hearing them played.  This was what struck me immediately about the Abbado recording that grabbed my attention.

You may want to try Klemperer's recording of all six concertos with the philharmonia. klemperer had a long long involvement with the Brandenburg concertos, and the philharmonia set is a sort of summit IMO.



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on May 30, 2013, 04:44:42 AM
I hear you, man and do agree with you!

Not MAK's finest moment by any means, though I think that this set does have some merits.  Only a few of the sections are rushed (off the top of my head: #3 and #6 fall prey to some bizarre tempi choices).

Still, I think it is worth hearing and owning.  I recommend this version, for a nice price via the Market Place:



Yes, twenty or thirty years ago some of their tempi sounded absolutely bizarre, but after Il Giardino or Fasolis and several others, today MAK sounds quite more conventional.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on May 30, 2013, 04:49:07 AM
Well, there you go - those qualities are the ones that I find particularly ugly in these works.   A graceful embrace of the music with a light quality, an unhurried but certainly not sluggish, tempo is how I prefer hearing them played.  This was what struck me immediately about the Abbado recording that grabbed my attention.

Well, you're describing the "old" English way: namely, Pinnock and Hogwood.   :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2013, 04:53:36 AM
That was my very first recording of the Brandenburgs, and it was the exact qualities of rapidity and harshness that impressed me then.  In the format I had it, it was probably the original CD release.
You know what? I'm doubly confused now about which is which and realize that I need to listen to both MAK and AAMB recordings again -- it's probably been a few years since I last burned out on the Brandenburgs after acquiring Alessandrini and Il Giardino Armonico. Hearing Abbado this past week told me my ears are nearly virgin again and can withstand -- even enjoy -- some prolonged exploration. I'll throw in Savall, too, and my good oldies on LP, Hogwood and Paillard, for a weekend Bachathon!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2013, 05:28:11 AM
No, I do not like his way with them.  Too stodgy and I do not enjoy the sound of the ensemble.  I do prefer a PI group, just not the (what I perceive as) pretentious effects in the articulation, dynamics and tempo.

That's interesting because I don't hear any stoginess there really. On the contrary I hear lively rhythms and clear textures.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2013, 07:20:09 AM
Odd.  His tempos are considerably slower than newer, more HIP, recordings - far from lively, IMO, and there is a blandness to the sound of the ensemble that I would not call clear.

I'm not sure about the tempo, I'll check it out when I'm reunited with my record collection. I'll also check the Naxos CD you like.

My own most visited set is probably the Harnoncourt DVD. I think Leonhardt in 5 is also special.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 08:21:03 AM
That's interesting because I don't hear any stoginess there really. On the contrary I hear lively rhythms and clear textures.

I completely share Mandryka´s view of these recordings. Klemperer was often better than his rumor.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 08:24:44 AM
Well, you're describing the "old" English way: namely, Pinnock and Hogwood.   :)

Well, the style of Abbado´s second Brandenburg set (the one in question) is not that different from Pinnock´s style, except that modern instruments are used.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 08:29:52 AM
Yes, twenty or thirty years ago some of their tempi sounded absolutely bizarre, but after Il Giardino or Fasolis and several others, today MAK sounds quite more conventional.  :)

Yes, we can not complain, - today we can have recordings of the Brandenburgs meeting any style you can imagine. :)

Have you heard this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/1455303

or this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/2865132
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 08:36:59 AM
Naxos is usually thought of as offering adequate recordings, but rarely those of the highest order.  However, this one has all the characteristics which I look for in these works: bright tempi, original instruments, good soloists and a balanced ensemble sound -



This I would call a nice middle of the road HIP intrepretation without special characteristics, not unsimilar the recordings of Tafelmusic and Boston Baroque.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 08:49:23 AM
What I heard was not a rumor, but the recording.  Overall I consider the tempi slower than I prefer, that said, for a "historical" recording his is probably about as good as it gets.

I've spent most of this morning listening to a variety of recordings and have come up with three that I think are the best according to my (granted, somewhat unusual) taste:

Pinnock, English Consort
Cafe Zimmermann
Abbado, Orchestra Mozart

Regarding Abbado, the more I listen to it, especially as compared to others, the more I find it pleasing.

 ;)

I have not listened to Klemperer´s recording recently, but I remember that it is equally lively as Pinnock´s. I admit that liveliness and absolute tempo are different concepts.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 30, 2013, 09:08:22 AM
I wonder what Bach had in mind for the tempo it "should" be played in? Or did he leave it an open question?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Opus106 on May 30, 2013, 09:23:20 AM
Your question reminded me, all of a sudden, of Gardiner's notes (http://www.monteverdi.co.uk/downloads/booklets/sdg707.pdf) (PDF) to his recording, which has been sitting in my computer waiting to be read for Bach knows how long! It may or may not answer your question, by the way, although you may find it useful to learn more about the works and their history.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: dave b on May 30, 2013, 09:25:39 AM
Thanks very much.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 09:35:17 AM
I wonder what Bach had in mind for the tempo it "should" be played in?

Tempo giusto, without doubt.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on May 30, 2013, 09:59:59 AM
I often do not care for the natural horns in these works, which almost always sound "hooty" and too robust, not blending well with the rest of the ensemble.  In #1, I can tell within a few seconds if the recording will please me or not.  Pinnock is good, Hogwood less so, and Il Giardino Armonico I actually find not to my taste at all in #1, - but nicer in the other works, #5 for example I find very nice.

My preferences may not be in the majority, and while I am generally a PI aficionado, there are specific aspects in some of those ensembles which I do not care for.

Yes, it's quite difficult to find a performance completely suited to our taste in every concerto. Maybe the only solution would be to record our own version.   ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 30, 2013, 10:07:11 AM
Yes, it's quite difficult to find a performance completely suited to our taste in every concerto. Maybe the only solution would be to record our own version.   ;D

If you have got it in you head, you do not need to record it, unless you want others to hear it. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on May 30, 2013, 10:07:33 AM
Well, the style of Abbado´s second Brandenburg set (the one in question) is not that different from Pinnock´s style, except that modern instruments are used.

I listened to Abbado some months ago, when I purchased his set and I have never tried again. I don't recall any remarkable virtue about it. On the contrary, I consider Pinnock (his Archiv recording, I mean) one of the best versions that I have. That said, probably they aren't that different "stylistically" speaking. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on May 30, 2013, 10:16:51 AM
If you have got it in you head, you do not need to record it, unless you want others to hear it. :)
I don't know, call me "materialist", but the idea of "performance" implies some exterior activity, IMO. That said, I could accept that any possible interpretation it's already contained in the score itself (a kind of musical platonism, if you want).  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Geo Dude on May 30, 2013, 01:49:16 PM
Well, there you go - those qualities are the ones that I find particularly ugly in these works.   A graceful embrace of the music with a light quality, an unhurried but certainly not sluggish, tempo is how I prefer hearing them played.  This was what struck me immediately about the Abbado recording that grabbed my attention.

You may also like the Tafelmusik recording, then.  On the other hand, my barometer for light and unhurried may be different than yours, so I do recommend sampling.  I like them because they're just fast enough to push past middle of the road but don't seem to push tempos just for the sake of doing it.  That said, given your tastes I do recommend that you stay away from the I Barocchisti recording. :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Xenophanes on June 02, 2013, 04:27:50 PM
I have a couple of different recordings of Brandenburg Concertos and would be interested in what others recommend. Thanks in advance. I especially value the opinions of the "old timers" here, although I am one myself in age only---but I am only a novice in the area of classical music, even though I have been listening for years. I find it an endless area of exploration.

My favorite is the old recording with Karl Ristenpart and the Chamber Orchestra of the Saar. I had it on LP, but now have it in a Bach set with The Art of the Fugue, the 4 Orchestral Suites,  and some other concertos.

http://www.amazon.com/Brandenburg-Cons-Orchestra-Cello-etc/dp/B00004XROP/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1370221404&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+brandenburg+concertos+ristenpart

For just the Brandenburg concertos, I like the old set with Trevor Pinnock, but he has a newer one.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on June 02, 2013, 10:05:01 PM
I don't know, call me "materialist", but the idea of "performance" implies some exterior activity, IMO. That said, I could accept that any possible interpretation it's already contained in the score itself (a kind of musical platonism, if you want).  :)

That's like musical fundamentalism. You know, the idea that all and only permissible behaviour is consistent with what was intended by the authors of the canonical texts.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on June 03, 2013, 06:17:01 AM
If you have got it in you head, you do not need to record it, unless you want others to hear it. :)

Plus you have the advantage of random access, which you definitely don't get in a concert performance.
A recording, especially if stored on HD, is a halfway house, more or less - eg it's easy to skip bits you don't like so much, which is also something you can't do in a concert.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on June 05, 2013, 01:25:09 PM
My favorite is the old recording with Karl Ristenpart and the Chamber Orchestra of the Saar. I had it on LP, but now have it in a Bach set with The Art of the Fugue, the 4 Orchestral Suites,  and some other concertos.

http://www.amazon.com/Brandenburg-Cons-Orchestra-Cello-etc/dp/B00004XROP/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1370221404&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+brandenburg+concertos+ristenpart

For just the Brandenburg concertos, I like the old set with Trevor Pinnock, but he has a newer one.

Agreed. See post 33 in this very thread.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: NJ Joe on February 21, 2014, 04:04:51 PM
Can anyone recommend a modern instrument version of the Brandenburgs? I currently own Pinnock 1982 and Harnoncourt period instrument versions, and was thinking about adding a modern instrument version.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 05:09:47 PM
Can anyone recommend a modern instrument version of the Brandenburgs? I currently own Pinnock 1982 and Harnoncourt period instrument versions, and was thinking about adding a modern instrument version.
Best advice: rethink. There are still good HIP ones you lack. If you insist then Britten is gorgeous. Totally wrong, a crime against musicology, an affront to the shade of St Leonhardt, but gorgeous. The Scottish Chamber orch is good. If you see the Karajan back away and then run as far as you can.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2014, 05:14:34 PM
Agreed about you missing out on good HIP ones (English Baroque Soloists and Concerto Italiano come to mind right off the bat);  but if you really want an MI performance,  Britten is excellent; or go for Chailly/Gewandhaus.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: NJ Joe on February 21, 2014, 05:50:44 PM
Thanks guys. I certainly wouldn't want to affront St. Leonhardt's shade!  Let me ask you:  how would you rate your recommendations compared to the ones I own (Pinnock, Harnoncourt)? And also, what do you think of this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL.__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Ken B on February 21, 2014, 06:02:40 PM
Thanks guys. I certainly wouldn't want to affront St. Leonhardt's shade!  Let me ask you:  how would you rate your recommendations compared to the ones I own (Pinnock, Harnoncourt)? And also, what do you think of this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL.__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)
Oyveh. I bet it's been 20 years maybe since I heard that. Britten is WAY better.
I like Pinnock a lot. It's been too long with Harnoncourt, which I last heard in the 70s when i aired it on radio.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 21, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
Can anyone recommend a modern instrument version of the Brandenburgs? I currently own Pinnock 1982 and Harnoncourt period instrument versions, and was thinking about adding a modern instrument version.

I don't necessarily agree it's better to go HIP again, especially when there are great underrated MI sets out there needing a good home. For instance, my favorite for a Brandenburg set is topped by Goebel (HIP) and Schreier (MI).

Here are some short samples of Schreier. (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/4502856)




Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: NJ Joe on February 21, 2014, 06:41:47 PM
I don't necessarily agree it's better to go HIP again, especially when there are great underrated MI sets out there needing a good home. For instance, my favorite for a Brandenburg set is topped by Goebel (HIP) and Schreier (MI).

Here are some short samples of Schreier. (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/4502856)






Thanks DD.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Sammy on February 21, 2014, 07:43:42 PM
I don't necessarily agree it's better to go HIP again, especially when there are great underrated MI sets out there needing a good home. For instance, my favorite for a Brandenburg set is topped by Goebel (HIP) and Schreier (MI).

Here are some short samples of Schreier. (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/4502856)





Schreier's is an excellent set.  I usually find MI recordings of the Brandenburgs to be a trial, but your favorite set is a total joy.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 21, 2014, 09:51:32 PM
Schreier's is an excellent set.  I usually find MI recordings of the Brandenburgs to be a trial, but your favorite set is a total joy.

I didn't think anyone else even knew of this set. I should've known you'd be the exception B-dog. :)


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on February 22, 2014, 02:02:23 AM
Since I discovered Cafe Zimmermann, I haven't felt much need to listen elsewhere, for Bach's orchestral music.

But I'd go along with Britten, for a modern instruments recommendation.  His solo in the 5th is simply the best I've ever heard.  Saw him in concert too, around the time these recordings were made.  Also saw him conduct a performance of Purcell's Fairy Queen, around the same time - all-star cast, terrific occasion.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: NJ Joe on February 22, 2014, 11:18:08 PM
Agreed about you missing out on good HIP ones (English Baroque Soloists and Concerto Italiano come to mind right off the bat);  but if you really want an MI performance,  Britten is excellent; or go for Chailly/Gewandhaus.

Bought Concerto Italiano yesterday and listened tonight.  Beautiful top-notch performances, I love it! Thanks for the recommendation.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Ken B on February 23, 2014, 07:31:49 AM
Bought Concerto Italiano yesterday and listened tonight.  Beautiful top-notch performances, I love it! Thanks for the recommendation.
HIP is the way, the truth, the light.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 23, 2014, 09:09:24 AM
HIP is the way, the truth, the light.

Just sayin'

Sez who?


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: jlaurson on March 11, 2014, 10:04:53 AM
Thanks guys. I certainly wouldn't want to affront St. Leonhardt's shade!  Let me ask you:  how would you rate your recommendations compared to the ones I own (Pinnock, Harnoncourt)? And also, what do you think of this one:



Little to nothing. Pinnock & Harnoncourt are a different league. But it'll make you appreciate those more, I reckon. :-)
I think they came at a certain point of stylistic re-orientation that made them aimless and ungainly... and sort of a worst-of-all-worlds kind of situation. I'd rather have Britten or Munchinger or Cafe Zimmermann or Egarr et al. which is to say: Anyone I consider a musical joy, regardless of ideology. Here's a link to lots of reviews:

[url=http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html]http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL.__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg
 (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL.__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg
[/quote)

Little to nothing. Pinnock & Harnoncourt are a different league. But it'll make you appreciate those more, I reckon. :-)
I think they came at a certain point of stylistic re-orientation that made them aimless and ungainly... and sort of a worst-of-all-worlds kind of situation. I'd rather have Britten or Munchinger or Cafe Zimmermann or Egarr et al. which is to say: Anyone I consider a musical joy, regardless of ideology. Here's a link to lots of reviews:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html)

THE BRANDENBURG CONCERTOS ON IONARTS:


Adolf Busch’s Brandenburg Concertos [22.7.12]

Richard Egarr’s Brandenburg Concertos [21.7.12]

Best Recordings of 2010 (# 8) [10.12.10]

More Brandenburgs, Top Shelf (Part 1) [9.8.10]

Savall's Brandenburgs [7.8.10]

Brandenburg Concertos, Part 1 [11.3.09]

Brandenburg Concertos, Part 2 [25.3.09]

Old School Brandenburgs [21.12.07]

Trever Pinnock: Bach Again, at 61 [14.12.07]

Dip Your Ears, No. 75 (Loussier's Brandenburgs) [26.1.07][/url]
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidW on March 11, 2014, 11:22:26 AM
Savall is my favorite and while HIP, doesn't sound like Pinnock so should sit well on your shelf.  Still would like to hear Kuijken someday.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 11:38:11 AM
Savall is my favorite and while HIP, doesn't sound like Pinnock so should sit well on your shelf.  Still would like to hear Kuijken someday.
Bargain box

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: kishnevi on March 12, 2014, 05:28:21 PM
Bargain box



I think Jens was talking about this one
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6MFp05_pYs4/UA2ya_VfXmI/AAAAAAAADWg/L02xOEKwjmM/s1600/Accent_Brandenburg_Kuijken_Laurson_300.jpg)

See the Ionarts link Jens provided for more info.

I have that DHM box, and I can't say I found anything particularly memorable (good or bad) with those performances.  (I don't have the Accent set.)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: NJ Joe on March 12, 2014, 06:12:38 PM
Little to nothing. Pinnock & Harnoncourt are a different league. But it'll make you appreciate those more, I reckon. :-)
I think they came at a certain point of stylistic re-orientation that made them aimless and ungainly... and sort of a worst-of-all-worlds kind of situation. I'd rather have Britten or Munchinger or Cafe Zimmermann or Egarr et al. which is to say: Anyone I consider a musical joy, regardless of ideology. Here's a link to lots of reviews:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WNAHZ7EEL.__PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg


Little to nothing. Pinnock & Harnoncourt are a different league. But it'll make you appreciate those more, I reckon. :-)
I think they came at a certain point of stylistic re-orientation that made them aimless and ungainly... and sort of a worst-of-all-worlds kind of situation. I'd rather have Britten or Munchinger or Cafe Zimmermann or Egarr et al. which is to say: Anyone I consider a musical joy, regardless of ideology. Here's a link to lots of reviews:

[url=http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html]http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html)

THE BRANDENBURG CONCERTOS ON IONARTS:


Adolf Busch’s Brandenburg Concertos [22.7.12]

Richard Egarr’s Brandenburg Concertos [21.7.12]

Best Recordings of 2010 (# 8) [10.12.10]

More Brandenburgs, Top Shelf (Part 1) [9.8.10]

Savall's Brandenburgs [7.8.10]

Brandenburg Concertos, Part 1 [11.3.09]

Brandenburg Concertos, Part 2 [25.3.09]

Old School Brandenburgs [21.12.07]

Trever Pinnock: Bach Again, at 61 [14.12.07]

Dip Your Ears, No. 75 (Loussier's Brandenburgs) [26.1.07][/url]

Thank you so much, I look forward to reading these articles.  I noticed many links within links!

Right now I am obsessed with the Concerto Italiano recording I bought in late February. I feel like I don't want to move away from it at this point. The 4th, which is my favorite, is absolutely stellar.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Octave on March 12, 2014, 08:59:38 PM
Bargain box



Ah, but I am happy to see that this little box contains a disc of violin concerti that I have been wanting.  Too bad I have 3 out of 5 of these discs.  This is the one, though it seems to be expanded in its boxed reissue:



I was sorry that it had not been included in the DHM Bach or Kuijken "edition" boxes.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 12, 2014, 10:38:15 PM
Ah, but I am happy to see that this little box contains a disc of violin concerti that I have been wanting.  Too bad I have 3 out of 5 of these discs.  This is the one, though it seems to be expanded in its boxed reissue:



I was sorry that it had not been included in the DHM Bach or Kuijken "edition" boxes.

Definitely get that violin concertos recording! :)

I vaguely remember having seen some Japanese reissue, but probably getting the box set is a cheaper solution.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: DavidW on March 13, 2014, 06:39:55 AM
Thank you Ken you are the man!

Musical Offering is a cool inclusion to round out the box.  I've preordered it. 8)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on March 15, 2014, 11:02:54 PM
I just noticed this new one.


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on March 16, 2014, 03:57:59 AM
I just noticed this new one.



Me too.  :) It recall Premont commenting that it would be hard to match their earlier efforts (he must be referring to the DVD issue?).

But no matter, the samples sound just right...and different from what I have (Harnoncourt II & Linde Consort). This might be one of those rare occasions I buy another recording of these old war horses! ;D

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on March 16, 2014, 05:23:46 AM
Me too.  :) It recall Premont commenting that it would be hard to match their earlier efforts (he must be referring to the DVD issue?).

But no matter, the samples sound just right...and different from what I have (Harnoncourt II & Linde Consort). This might be one of those rare occasions I buy another recording of these old war horses! ;D

Q
Yeah, it's hard for me to decide if I really need another. I'm pretty happy with Fasolis, Zimmermann, Alessandrini, etc. But if folks feel it brings something much different...There's another recent one on these pages, I forget which, that I finally decided I didn't need. But I'm always looking for new ways to listen to this grand old music. And Freiburger rarely disappoints. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 19, 2014, 08:50:13 AM
Yeah, it's hard for me to decide if I really need another. I'm pretty happy with Fasolis, Zimmermann, Alessandrini, etc. But if folks feel it brings something much different...There's another recent one on these pages, I forget which, that I finally decided I didn't need. But I'm always looking for new ways to listen to this grand old music. And Freiburger rarely disappoints.

Well, I have listened to the Freiburger´s second Brandenburg set twice.

Contrary to their first recording (DVD 2000), the tempi are (or feel) somewhat faster and often a little hectic, as if the leader (Gottfried von der Goltz) has not got similar control of the forces as in the first set, or the soloists are left more free to play how they want themselves. And also they seem to me to have fallen into the "Italian expression" trap á la Fasiolis, Musica Florea et.c. There are some fine soloist episodes in between, but the corni in Cto.I are rather unpolished and obtrusive, and G v d Goltz is not equally elegant on the solo violin as he was before. So I think the well measured and eloquent first set is to be preferred.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on March 19, 2014, 09:37:20 AM
Well, I have listened to the Freiburger´s second Brandenburg set twice.

Contrary to their first recording (DVD 2000), the tempi are (or feel) somewhat faster and often a little hectic, as if the leader (Gottfried von der Goltz) has not got similar control of the forces as in the first set, or the soloists are left more free to play how they want themselves. And also they seem to me to have fallen into the "Italian expression" trap á la Fasiolis, Musica Florea et.c. There are some fine soloist episodes in between, but the corni in Cto.I are rather unpolished and obtrusive, and G v d Goltz is not equally elegant on the solo violin as he was before. So I think the well measured and eloquent first set is to be preferred.

Thanks for this, Poul!

I just imagined this or your opinion of their recording of the violin concertos wasn't very high?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on March 19, 2014, 09:46:07 AM
Thanks for this, Poul!

I just imagined this or your opinion of their recording of the violin converts wasn't very high?

I was not thet impressed by their recent CD with the violin concertos, but on the other hand, I have only listened to it once. This is going to change to night.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: eoghan on August 13, 2014, 07:24:12 AM
First time poster on the forum. Occasional lurker - mainly nicking information and opinions of which there have been some outstanding suggestions (I'm currently busy making notes from the "Romantic HIP" thread). But I thought it was time to give something as well as take...so...

The Brandenburgs are my all time favourite music (and always have been) so that makes an obvious place to start. When I was a kid I was brought up on Menuhin (on LP) and then Pinnock (on cassette). The Pinnock cassettes were very heavily listened to and remain the benchmark for me against which everything else is judged. They are a fine set. But I've started listening to others in more recent years.

Richard Egarr's set is a very solid one. It really dances. Reinhard Goebel is generally on the manic side for my preference, but he does, for me, do the best version of No 2 which on balance I find to be the weakest of all the concertos. Goebel and friends really bring it to life. Jordi Savall has mixed results. Sometimes the very distinctive "Savall sound" just doesn't sound right for this music and I feel myself craving something brighter. But - and it's a BIG but - Savall, perhaps unsurprisingly as a viol specialist - comes into his own with an extraordinary rendition of the 6th. The first movement is taken very, very slowly by modern standards with lots of rubato - and it breathes more than any other. Far more than any interpreter Savall really makes the most of those wonderful oblique, sepia-dark, umami tones that result from the orchestration. Worth listening to for the 6th alone.

Maasaki Suzuki is way out in front in my opinion when it comes to the cantatas and B minor mass so I was astonished at how flat and emotionless his Brandenburgs are. They're played at a brisk medium-fast pace throughout, and the playing is perfectly competent, but I could barely find a memorable moment - I found the set cold and expressionless.

But there's only one winner for me. I hadn't heard Gardiner's set until I saw them live at the Cadogan Hall in London about 3 years ago and it was astonishing. Gardiner takes No 1 - previously one of my least favourites - and turns it into something truly exciting. The contrast between a soft, legato opening section of the Polacca and the ultra-staccato development really grabs you. The final movement of the 6th is pure dance music. The Gardiner recording is miles and miles ahead of anything else I've heard.

One thing really irritates me about the Brandenburgs: the music is so close to perfect, with so many brilliant movements, that it really bugs me that Bach was lazy enough to include the odd "ordinary" movement in there ;D I'm pointing the finger at the slow movement of the 5th in particular which is dull as dishwater, with half a mention to the trios in the 1st and the slow movement of the 6th. But everything else - everything! - is as good as music gets in my opinion.

As a postscript: I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Brewski on August 13, 2014, 08:16:55 AM
Greetings, eoghan, and welcome. A great first post! Feel free to post a little more about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board, if you like. In any case, have a good time here.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 13, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
First time poster on the forum. Occasional lurker - mainly nicking information and opinions of which there have been some outstanding suggestions (I'm currently busy making notes from the "Romantic HIP" thread). But I thought it was time to give something as well as take...so...

The Brandenburgs are my all time favourite music (and always have been) so that makes an obvious place to start. When I was a kid I was brought up on Menuhin (on LP) and then Pinnock (on cassette). The Pinnock cassettes were very heavily listened to and remain the benchmark for me against which everything else is judged. They are a fine set. But I've started listening to others in more recent years.

Richard Egarr's set is a very solid one. It really dances. Reinhard Goebel is generally on the manic side for my preference, but he does, for me, do the best version of No 2 which on balance I find to be the weakest of all the concertos. Goebel and friends really bring it to life. Jordi Savall has mixed results. Sometimes the very distinctive "Savall sound" just doesn't sound right for this music and I feel myself craving something brighter. But - and it's a BIG but - Savall, perhaps unsurprisingly as a viol specialist - comes into his own with an extraordinary rendition of the 6th. The first movement is taken very, very slowly by modern standards with lots of rubato - and it breathes more than any other. Far more than any interpreter Savall really makes the most of those wonderful oblique, sepia-dark, umami tones that result from the orchestration. Worth listening to for the 6th alone.

Maasaki Suzuki is way out in front in my opinion when it comes to the cantatas and B minor mass so I was astonished at how flat and emotionless his Brandenburgs are. They're played at a brisk medium-fast pace throughout, and the playing is perfectly competent, but I could barely find a memorable moment - I found the set cold and expressionless.

But there's only one winner for me. I hadn't heard Gardiner's set until I saw them live at the Cadogan Hall in London about 3 years ago and it was astonishing. Gardiner takes No 1 - previously one of my least favourites - and turns it into something truly exciting. The contrast between a soft, legato opening section of the Polacca and the ultra-staccato development really grabs you. The final movement of the 6th is pure dance music. The Gardiner recording is miles and miles ahead of anything else I've heard.

One thing really irritates me about the Brandenburgs: the music is so close to perfect, with so many brilliant movements, that it really bugs me that Bach was lazy enough to include the odd "ordinary" movement in there ;D I'm pointing the finger at the slow movement of the 5th in particular which is dull as dishwater, with half a mention to the trios in the 1st and the slow movement of the 6th. But everything else - everything! - is as good as music gets in my opinion.

As a postscript: I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.

Cheers, eoghan!  Thanks for coming aboard at full steam.
 
What is it about that first Brandenburg, that so many accounts of it are . . . bloodless?
 
And you are taking me to task . . . I am sure I have listened to the BWV 1050a, but it cannot have been nearly so attentive as it is right to demand.  I wasn't thrown into the drum of a washing machine, spin and bashed around, but then, someone may have added some fabric softener . . . .
 
Love Egarr's Louis Couperin, BTW!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: eoghan on August 13, 2014, 11:45:17 AM
Thanks - perhaps I've overegged the cadenza of BWV 1050a but harmonically it's certainly a bit of an eye-opener.

I first heard a bit of Egarr's Louis Couperin the other day as it happens - I don't know much Louis Couperin if truth be told and I loved it!

Thanks Bruce!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on August 13, 2014, 12:22:26 PM
Welcome to the forum, eoghan!

Always great to meet someone who loves Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.   ;)

I appreciate your comments and would ask if you have heard Cafe Zimmerman's set?  A winner in all regards for me.



Cheers!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2014, 12:27:05 PM
Hi eoghan, and thanks for a great post. I like that cadenza from 1050a too. It's effect is so different from the one in 1050.

I always think that in 1050/i the harpsichord is like this major troubkemaker who really never gets contoled properly by the orchestra. Even at the end, after the orchestra have played the movement to a close, I still feel like the harpsichord is like a wild orangutan lurking in the background who may show up and reak havock at any moment. What he does in the cadenza is so shocking it still resounds threateningly in the mind. In 1050a/i, the harpsichord is tamer, his music's fun but it's friendly and at the end I feel that everything's been brought into beautiful balance by the orchestra's final bars.

Leonhardt's fabulous in 1050 parly because you can sense he's a crazy orangutan from the very first moment he plays, right at the start of the movement.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on August 13, 2014, 01:20:46 PM
I appreciate your comments and would ask if you have heard Cafe Zimmerman's set?  A winner in all regards for me.



++several for Cafe Zimmerman - first choice for me also.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2014, 04:56:04 AM
Thanks - perhaps I've overegged the cadenza of BWV 1050a but harmonically it's certainly a bit of an eye-opener.

I need yet to fetch out the BWV 1050a again.

Meanwhile, I do much enjoy (and I was probably pointed here by one of our GMG neighbors) this account of the 'burgs:

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on August 16, 2014, 09:09:58 AM
[....]
What is it about that first Brandenburg, that so many accounts of it are . . . bloodless?
[....]

Leonhardt et al 1977 (re-issued on Brilliant Classics) is very good IMO.
Maybe not as fast as many HIP-ers want it to, but it's noble and attentive playing, and a rhytmically vivid performance.

[....]
I'm amazed that in 27 pages there has been no mention of BWV 1050a. It's an alternative early version of the 5th which contains a chromatic harpsichord cadenza - considerably shorter than the Brandenburg version - which will pick you up, throw you into the drum of a washing machine, spin you round and bash you around for a couple of minutes and spit you out. It's a brief but exhilarating ride, particularly if you know the more famous cadenza inside out.

Welcome to the board!
You're right about the silence i.c. BWV 1050a, but, even though I don't know this thread too well, there hasn't been much discussion about either 'alternative' version of the Brandenburgers here, recorded by a.o. Marriner, Pommer and Hogwood.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on August 16, 2014, 09:46:21 AM
Leonhardt et al 1977 (re-issued on Brilliant Classics) is very good IMO.
Maybe not as fast as many HIP-ers want it to, but it's noble and attentive playing, and a rhytmically vivid performance.

I suppose you think of this rather inexpensive Sony rerelease:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/3158804
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on August 16, 2014, 10:15:16 AM
I suppose you think of this rather inexpensive Sony rerelease:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/3158804

That must be the same.
I have a Brilliant twofer, catalogue nr. 92236. Bought it about a dozen years ago, or maybe even in the Bach year 2000, in a Dutch Kruidvat pharmacy shop. In those days, Brilliant discs costed around 2 euro a piece. :)
Recorded 1976/1977 at the famous Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, produced by the also famous Wolf Erichson, all tracks licensed by Sony Music Benelux BV.
At that particular time, the 'original' re-issue was OOP. So this Brilliant re-issue was hailed enormously by the Dutch music press .... and by some music lovers of course.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on August 16, 2014, 10:32:09 AM
That must be the same.
I have a Brilliant twofer, catalogue nr. 92236. Bought it about a dozen years ago, or maybe even in the Bach year 2000, in a Dutch Kruidvat pharmacy shop. In those days, Brilliant discs costed around 2 euro a piece. :)
Recorded 1976/1977 at the famous Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, produced by the also famous Wolf Erichson, all tracks licensed by Sony Music Benelux BV.
At that particular time, the 'original' re-issue was OOP. So this Brilliant re-issue was hailed enormously by the Dutch music press .... and by some music lovers of course.

I own several releases of this recording, among others I acquired the the original Seon LP set already in 1978. It was very revelatory listening at that time.

But I have never seen this Brilliant release, which I assume was meant for the Dutch market.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 18, 2014, 09:55:17 AM
I need yet to fetch out the BWV 1050a again.

Meanwhile, I do much enjoy (and I was probably pointed here by one of our GMG neighbors) this account of the 'burgs:


Hey, those are free on Prime! Awesome!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2014, 09:58:55 AM
Cool!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: bwv 1080 on August 18, 2014, 10:11:32 AM
always liked this orchestral arrangement played by the NES Chamber Orchestra

(http://pixhst.com/avaxhome/6c/fe/0017fe6c_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Pat B on August 28, 2014, 10:37:44 AM
I just listened to the first 2 Orchestral Suites (Harnoncourt 1966). It's probably old news to most of you, but it was my first listen to this recording. I am a fan of many more recent PI performances, but I was expecting this early one to be abrasive and maybe sloppy, two of the long-standing talking points against PI. They had to come from somewhere, right? Well, it wasn't from here. This is well-played and, even if it sounded unusual in the '60s, it is rather centrist by today's standards.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2014, 11:05:16 AM
I just listened to the first 2 Orchestral Suites (Harnoncourt 1966). It's probably old news to most of you, but it was my first listen to this recording. I am a fan of many more recent PI performances, but I was expecting this early one to be abrasive and maybe sloppy, two of the long-standing talking points against PI. They had to come from somewhere, right? Well, it wasn't from here. This is well-played and, even if it sounded unusual in the '60s, it is rather centrist by today's standards.

Yes and it may have been middle of the road HIP even then, I don't know. What you find is that Harnoncourt can talk the talk but often he doesn't  walk the walk. I don't know why. The talk and walk, by the way, are about making the music maximally jolting, expressive and discordant, by short cell articulation, sensitivity to all the possibilities for affekt, and the voices interacting in often complex ways.

In my opinion, Harnoncourt's most interesting Brandenburgs are a bit later, on the DVD he made for DG with CMV. I think it's often true that his later recordings are more interesting in terms of boldness of ideas - here in the concertos, also in the B minor mass and in Mozart symphonies.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Pat B on August 28, 2014, 02:16:06 PM
Yes and it may have been middle of the road HIP even then, I don't know.

Back then I don't think there was an HIP road to be in the middle of. ;)

In case it wasn't clear, I like this recording of the Suites a lot -- more than I expected actually -- even if it isn't maximally jolting. AFAIK he never recorded them again, unlike the Brandenburgs. But that might just be a consequence of the popularity of the Brandenburgs vs. the Suites.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on August 28, 2014, 10:57:36 PM
In the mid-sixties the bold idea was to use old instruments at all. As especially the wind and brass players often still struggled with them, there was not much headroom for all of the mannerisms Harnoncourt has become notorious for.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on August 29, 2014, 05:50:46 AM
Back then I don't think there was an HIP road to be in the middle of. ;)

In case it wasn't clear, I like this recording of the Suites a lot -- more than I expected actually -- even if it isn't maximally jolting. AFAIK he never recorded them again, unlike the Brandenburgs. But that might just be a consequence of the popularity of the Brandenburgs vs. the Suites.

Yes he did, around 1982. They are available in the big Teldec Bach-box, at least.

If you ask me, I prefer the 1966 suites-recording, in the same way as I prefer the 1963 Brandenburgs.

In the 1960es musicians had to learn to master the period instruments, and their interpretive style was rather traditional (Brandenburgs from Wenzinger, Harnoncourt,Collegium Aureum). It was not until later, that they began to make experiments with the style, and Harnoncourts "rhetorical" experiments with the Brandenburgs and Suites do not appeal that much to me. His theory was better than the sounding results.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: eoghan on December 09, 2014, 02:41:35 AM
I've been listening on Spotify to the recent Concerto Koln recording.

Some kind soul has put the liner notes here http://issuu.com/highresaudio/docs/concerto_k__ln_-_bach_brandenburg_c Sensibly, they declared that they wouldn't make the recording unless they could do something new, so they take a rigorous academic approach, taking HIP ultra-seriously.

The "headline" feature is the custom-designed flauti-d'echo for the Fourth. With what appears to be fairly flimsy available evidence, they had an instrument built which from the description is a double recorder, which can be played at two different volume levels - to come to the fore in the slow movement. They use violones, different harpsichords, 392Hz, and in the Sixth they use alto gambas (rather than the normal tenor). Exciting stuff.

To these ears, the results are mixed but I don't think i'll be buying the CD. For the most part the sound is just too dry and passionless. Tempi are mixed and completely  consistent - a metronome couldn't do a better job; sometimes I was screaming for just a bit of rubato. Tone is definitely on the delicate side without a hint of vulgarity - this is Baroque for heaven's sake! - and phrasing is unrelentingly staccato which starts to grate after a while.

The First is disappointing. It's just too light and pretty. The horns are barely noticeable; the Adagio is too quick for my ears and while I've no problem with the fast tempo of the Trio which does create a little sense of dancing, there's little to make it memorable. As with the other concertos, individual playing is very nice, especially from the winds, with some very beautiful soft tones.

The Second is similarly pretty, but brings little new to the table. Here the soft tones really blend together nicely - the 392 pitch does help make the trumpet less shrill and more in line with the tone of the oboe, which I like. The slow movement - one of the most beautiful Bach wrote - is rendered so passively that it becomes forgettable. In the finale the sweetness does add something, but overall there seems to be too much of a sense that they just decided to let the music and instruments speak for themselves - I'd like to see a bit more "effort" if that makes sense.

The Third is taken very briskly. Again, it's light as air and I found myself cranking up the volume to try and give it some more body. It does however have energy and after a couple of listens at a decent volume I found myself coming around; while I do prefer a "heavier" sound in the first movement, this is one of my favourite alternative (and possibly more authentic) readings. They don't muck about with an extended cadenza in the "slow movement" - thanks goddness as far as I'm concerned. The presto is very, very crisp. Again I wouldn't mind a little more weight but their approach is superbly executed.

And so to the Fourth with the custom-built flauti d'echo. There's a myth which needs to be debunked once and for all - that recorders are incapable of any dynamic range. This is nonsense. By controlling the profile of the breath column the volume can be changed a fair bit - if at the expense of modifying the tone somewhat. That's before we even get to alternative fingerings. But I don't understand the need to design a new instrument for the echo effect in the slow movement when the orchestration itself gives the echo effect. The flauti d'echo only manage to sound weak in the echo passages, which a standard recorder can do anyhow. This might have been an interesting academic exercise, but I can't see that it has added anything musically. The only point of interest is the occasional emphasis on the second quaver in a pair by the recorders - I'm not 100% convinced that it works, but it's certainly different. The first movement is taken at a relaxed, almost sedate tempo. Once again it's pretty without bringing anything particularly special to the table. The band seem to speed up suddenly at the final recapitulation for no apparent reason which annoys me. The finale is fine, but the initial unison recorder entry is just too gentle - why have fancy supercharged instruments if it's going to be such a weedy entry?

Of all the concertos it's probably the Fifth which works the best. This is a really nice reading - full of life and lovely phrasing. The best part, for me,  is the middle section where "nothing really happens" - the seemingly endless, tuneless, hypnotic section where the flute and violin play heavy vibrato'd notes behind an incessant harpsichord, modulating all the way. It's druggy and soporific and creates the perfect effect. The harpsichord cadenza is taken at a very slow tempo by modern standards - it's interesting in that you get a chance to consider the notes a bit more carefully than usual - although I still rather the prefer the Van Halen-style OTT virtuoso approach. The affetusoso is dull as ever but that's just a weak composition in my eyes. The finale features lovely solo playing and is up with the best recordings.

The Sixth is a reasonable rendition but again suffers from being metronomically consistent. Once again the phrasing is sprightly and staccato. The slow movement actually has what is lacking elsewhere in this recording - some passion. The final allegro is taken at a very moderato pace and is clean throughout, allowing the listener to hear the different lines and interplay. My ear isn't good enough to know what if anything the alto gambas bring, although the balance doesn't sound unpleasant to me.

Overall, then, a mixed bag. I like to mixture of brisk tempi in some movements combined with some far more relaxed approaches elsewhere and the individual playing is pretty throughout. However, it's a recording that is often soulless and my impression is that it's more of academic interest than musical, which is a shame. It's miles better than Suzuki, and probably on a par with the likes of Egarr, but still a long way behind my clear leader, Gardiner. Still, if you like very clean playing then definitely worth a listen.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2014, 03:04:54 AM
I think on Harnoncourts early 80s recording the recorders in the 4th concerto are placed at a distance to get the echo effect. But they are just ordinary recorders.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on November 26, 2016, 08:08:57 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81fGwXyJB9L._SY355_.jpg)

First disc from this. It's good, but perhaps too polished, I like the "living on the edge" feeling that e.g. Savall brings to this.

Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.

This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ::)) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?


 :)

Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point.  ;)

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?

Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   ::)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 26, 2016, 10:59:08 AM
This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ::)) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?


Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point.  ;)

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?


It depends upon your level of ambition in this area, I would say. The number of released Brandenburg sets since 1927 is about 175. Of these I own 160+ and know most of the rest. So my level of ambition is very high. But if you own 20 or so (and you mention more of my favorites above) and has a medium level of ambition, I am not sure, that I would recommend you to use your money on Brandenburgs. There is so much other music to explore. But the choice is yours of course.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 26, 2016, 11:08:36 AM
Brandenburg Questions
Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.
This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.
I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ::)) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.
Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.
Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point.  ;)
And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?
Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   ::)

I love Egarr, who is a good mix of things I like (low pitch, calm but sprigtly... not fast'n'furious for its own sake).
Quote
I used to think that Pinnock’s English Concert recording was about as good as it gets – a notion I was disabused of by many subsequent groups bettering that laudable effort. Egarr won’t be the last word in this progression, either, but the increments are getting smaller and smaller.
Review, alongside Alessandrini, Savall, Pinnock II: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/egarrs-brandenburg-concertos.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/egarrs-brandenburg-concertos.html)
Quote
Sure, there are ‘anachronisms’ here and there - and a few off-notes - but this is miles away from the British “bigger-is-better” Handel oratorio style that occasionally spilled over to Bach’s choral works around that time. What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s.
Review Busch: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html)
Quote
They are the most chamber-music like of Kuijken’s Brandenburgs yet, with that crisp, uncompromising attack that makes his one-year cantata cycle on the same label such a thrilling proposition.
Review Kuijken III: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 26, 2016, 11:09:17 AM
Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande ...

Sigiswald Kuijken participated on violin on Leonhardt's recording (SEON), but La Petite Bande has only released two sets, the first on DHM and the second on Accent. But I also own a live set by them, not released commercially, but part of a broadcast transmission from the 1990es.

Quote from: HIPster
I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   ::)

The Freiburgers released a new CD set recently on Harmonia Mundi, but I think the playing is a bit too casual compared to the earlier DVD set, which I much prefer.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 26, 2016, 11:16:17 AM
Quote from Jens:

What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s. The Busch Players used viola da gambas and George Eskdale played on a Bach trumpet he had made.



Interesting information. Where did you get it from?

Busch does not score the 6th concerto soloistic, and it is indeed difficult to "decode" the gamba parts sonically.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on November 26, 2016, 12:20:57 PM
Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments!  :)

I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?



While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?



Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 26, 2016, 12:43:32 PM
To the great Parsifal Poll This Way (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26431.msg1020294.html#msg1020294)!


It is good music--I went through the not actually complete Naxos set not long ago--but Reger seems to have no objection to that sort of humor.
Indeed, he might have liked it. Made it more sophisticated the puerile, perhaps, but yes. Smallest room of the house and all.  ;)

Quote from Jens:
What Karl Richter was to Bach performance in the 1960s, Busch must have been in the 1930s. The Busch Players used viola da gambas and George Eskdale played on a Bach trumpet he had made.

Interesting information. Where did you get it from?

I strongly suspect I got that from Tully Potter's liner notes.

Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments!  :)
I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.
How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00MAUYWH0.01.L.jpg) (http://amzn.to/2fQAPg7)

While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00NX6HWOA.01.L.jpg) (http://amzn.to/2g3WCUv)

Almost shockingly, to myself, I don't have either... not even Concerto Koln, which I like quite a bit. New release, I reckon; certainly loved their previous one of the Overtures. I think I might ask for that in the Christmas stocking.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 26, 2016, 01:02:57 PM

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?



While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?



I got both relatively recently and have listened to them only once. I do not feel sufficiently "dressed" to comment upon them yet.
Title: Re: What are you listening to now?
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 27, 2016, 02:14:02 AM
In this box??

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564601931

Because I own an older release of the Brandenburgs and suites.

No; at least I don't know if those notes are in that set (though a friend of mine has it and I could check. I just checked and yes, I got it from the liner notes of the release mentioned and depicted in said article:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html)

TD:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyQvpcaUUAAdsW3.jpg)
#morninglistening to @arcomelo2013 in #Corelli sonatas on @outheremusic/Arcana. Gaetano Na… http://ift.tt/2fnroIZ (http://amzn.to/2guzafX)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on November 27, 2016, 02:24:06 AM
Interesting, I do find this interpretation to be "on the edge" so to speak, but I can easily see what you are saying here erato.  I love playing Savall's - on headphones especially - when I travel for work, on planes and in airports, etc.

This set, Savall's version and Philip Pickett's are my top choices in the Brandenburg Concertos.

I also regularly reach for the Linde Consort, Goebel/MAK, and Koopman/ABO.  Other standouts for me are Pinnock's first version on Archiv (I always enjoy listening to this when it's playing, but rarely reach for it?  ::)) and Allessandrini/Concerto Italiano.

Special mention to the above version (#3???) by La Petite Bande and also Hogwood's "alternate" readings too.

Que, I am inclined to try Lotter's, do I need this one?


 :)

Rampe is on my short list too, based on premont's recommendation; just waiting for the right price-point.  ;)

And I see that premont has unearthed a version by Reyne.  Oy!  Do I need to check out this one too?

Cafe Zimmermann's six disc set is also wonderful, but is a different kind of beast altogether for me.  I also really like the DVD of the Freiburgers, but it's just a pain to deal with that annoying menu feature every time I want to just play some Bach. . .   ::)

Jens and premont - Thank you for your comments!  :)

I initially liked Egarr quite a lot, but cooled to it over time.  The First Concerto has a lurching quality to it that I found distracting (it's my favorite of the Brandenburgs, so not inconsequential to me).  I do really like Egarr/AAM's Third, Fourth and (especially) Sixth.

How about Concerto Koln, also at the lower pitch?



While we're at it here, how about Florilegium's set?



Hi HIPster,
Whether you should get yet another Brandenburgs,  is up to you... :)
I am usually not do keen on multiple recordings, but was looking for a new recording after it had been a long time I lived with Harnoncourt II and wanted to give myself an update on what was available. During those years I sometimes considered other recordings like Kuijken I (underpowered) or Alessandrini  (definitely Italianate). I did keep Linde Consort, which I like very much. I also love Café Zimmermann but those are a special case.

So like a year ago I listened to every sample and excerpt available of old and new recordings.
The process of comparison  was instructive and surprising. I would have bet a considerable sum on a choice for Concerto Köln, the Freiburgers or Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. With a choice like that, how can you go wrong? ::) Well the Freiburgers were on CD definitely a let down... I'm not much into the pumped up style of the drilled Akademie. The Concerto Köln fared best but didn't quite enthrall me, a bit of "going through the motions"? Excellent musicianship, don't get me wrong. Of the Oldies I really liked Goebel, but too dated and too similar an approach to Linde to justify the purchase. I also was quite taken by the charming performance, however dated, by Leonhardt et al on SEON.

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont Gordo: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München. New kids on the block to keep an eye on. Why? The perfomances are a breath of fresh air: spontaneous, very energetic like Harnoncourt and Savall but remarkably balanced, never over the top. Still: probably not for the fainthearted.... For those looking for a "pretty" version, Kuijken II is a perfect match. The sound of the Hofkapelle is very clear and natural. Another point is that I'm not always into Bach in "foreign" accents - this is profoundly idiomatic. I also like how they treat each concerto very much according to its own individual character - some amazing instrumental solos to be heard.

Anyway, perhaps just sample and see if it gives off a vibe.... :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 27, 2016, 02:39:29 AM
So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München.

To be fair I think Gordo was the first to mention this recording.  :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on November 27, 2016, 02:41:06 AM
To be fair I think Gordo was the first to mention this recording.  :)

Now you mention it, indeed it was him! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on November 27, 2016, 03:01:18 AM
Now you mention it, indeed it was him! :)

Q

c'mon, after an exalted recommendation, I even recommended you to purchase it for 2 cents on JPC!

What an ungrateful guy!   >:( :D ;D :D 

PS: Premont's memory is infallible.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on November 27, 2016, 03:24:53 AM
Hi HIPster,
Whether you should get yet another Brandenburgs,  is up to you... :)
I am usually not do keen on multiple recordings, but was looking for a new recording after it had been a long time I lived with Harnoncourt II and wanted to give myself an update on what was available. During those years I sometimes considered other recordings like Kuijken I (underpowered) or Alessandrini  (definitely Italianate). I did keep Linde Consort, which I like very much. I also love Café Zimmermann but those are a special case.

So like a year ago I listened to every sample and excerpt available of old and new recordings.
The process of comparison  was instructive and surprising. I would have bet a considerable sum on a choice for Concerto Köln, the Freiburgers or Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. With a choice like that, how can you go wrong? ::) Well the Freiburgers were on CD definitely a let down... I'm not much into the pumped up style of the drilled Akademie. The Concerto Köln fared best but didn't quite enthrall me, a bit of "going through the motions"? Excellent musicianship, don't get me wrong. Of the Oldies I realy liked Goebel, but too dated and too similar an approach to Linde to justify thr purchase.

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München. New kids on the block to keep an eye on. Why? The perfomances are a breath of fresh air: spontaneous, very energetic like Harnoncourt and Savall but remarkably balanced, never over the top. Still: probably not for the fainthearted.... For those looking for a "pretty" version, Kuijken II is a perfect match. The sound of the Hofkapelle is very clear and natural. Another point is that I'm not always into Bach in "foreign" accents - this is profoundly idiomatic. I also like how they treat each concerto very much according to its own individual character - some amazing instrumental solos to be heard.

Anyway, perhaps just sample and see if it gives off a vibe.... :)

Q

A good read Q  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on November 27, 2016, 04:16:17 AM
c'mon, after an exalted recommendation, I even recommended you to purchase it for 2 cents on JPC!

What an ungrateful guy!   >:( :D ;D :D 

PS: Premont's memory is infallible.

I guess subconsciously I'm inclined to attribute any Bach related recommendation to premont... ;)

Long time no see, my friend ! :)
Keep those excellent recommendations coming.... :D

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2016, 06:52:53 AM
Hi HIPster,
Whether you should get yet another Brandenburgs,  is up to you... :)
I am usually not do keen on multiple recordings, but was looking for a new recording after it had been a long time I lived with Harnoncourt II and wanted to give myself an update on what was available. During those years I sometimes considered other recordings like Kuijken I (underpowered) or Alessandrini  (definitely Italianate). I did keep Linde Consort, which I like very much. I also love Café Zimmermann but those are a special case.

So like a year ago I listened to every sample and excerpt available of old and new recordings.
The process of comparison  was instructive and surprising. I would have bet a considerable sum on a choice for Concerto Köln, the Freiburgers or Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. With a choice like that, how can you go wrong? ::) Well the Freiburgers were on CD definitely a let down... I'm not much into the pumped up style of the drilled Akademie. The Concerto Köln fared best but didn't quite enthrall me, a bit of "going through the motions"? Excellent musicianship, don't get me wrong. Of the Oldies I really liked Goebel, but too dated and too similar an approach to Linde to justify the purchase. I also was quite taken by the charming performance, however dated, by Leonhardt et al on SEON.

So the final choice fell on a dark horse pointed out by premont Gordo: Rüdiger Lotter and his Hofkapelle München. New kids on the block to keep an eye on. Why? The perfomances are a breath of fresh air: spontaneous, very energetic like Harnoncourt and Savall but remarkably balanced, never over the top. Still: probably not for the fainthearted.... For those looking for a "pretty" version, Kuijken II is a perfect match. The sound of the Hofkapelle is very clear and natural. Another point is that I'm not always into Bach in "foreign" accents - this is profoundly idiomatic. I also like how they treat each concerto very much according to its own individual character - some amazing instrumental solos to be heard.

Anyway, perhaps just sample and see if it gives off a vibe.... :)

Q

Have you had the chance to hear Lotter playing the violin music?

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on November 27, 2016, 07:27:53 AM
Thanks for your response Que and also for your efforts to keep this all organized and in one place; some worthy choices here!  ;)

How about this release from the Die Freitagsakademie?



Worth reading amazon reviewer Stephen Midgeley's impressions here (he digs it, in short).  I need to play this one again; I initially was able to stream it through amazon prime and couldn't really formulate much of an impression on the musical performance.  This has to be one of the most unique Brandenburg Concerto programs available! 

Who else has heard this account?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on November 27, 2016, 09:05:42 AM
Thanks for your response Que and also for your efforts to keep this all organized and in one place; some worthy choices here!  ;)

How about this release from the Die Freitasakademie?



Worth reading amazon reviewer Stephen Midgeley's impressions here (he digs it, in short).  I need to play this one again; I initially was able to stream it through amazon prime and couldn't really formulate much of an impression on the musical performance.  This has to be one of the most unique Brandenburg Concerto programs available! 

Who else has heard this account?

Intersting find! Talking about dark horses...  :D
I will give it a listen, but honestly I expect the sound effects to be totally off puting.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Gordo on November 27, 2016, 09:38:49 AM
I guess subconsciously I'm inclined to attribute any Bach related recommendation to premont... ;)

Long time no see, my friend ! :)
Keep those excellent recommendations coming.... :D

Q

I think I will enjoy my 15 minutes of fame. It's being increasingly hard to recommend something (anything) here.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 27, 2016, 11:24:05 AM
Thanks for your response Que and also for your efforts to keep this all organized and in one place; some worthy choices here!  ;)

How about this release from the Die Freitagsakademie?



Worth reading amazon reviewer Stephen Midgeley's impressions here (he digs it, in short).  I need to play this one again; I initially was able to stream it through amazon prime and couldn't really formulate much of an impression on the musical performance.  This has to be one of the most unique Brandenburg Concerto programs available! 

Who else has heard this account?

I consider this recording a bad joke. What you hear is the soundtrack to some (apparently imaginary) movie, and you get the music mixed up with all kinds of naturally occurring sounds, a special example of concrete music. To mention one thing: In the beginning you approach Köthen from a distance, so you can not hear the first half of the first movement of concerto no. one. You only get aware of it gradully in the sound picture. What musical purpose does this serve? The musical playing, when audible, seems not that bad, but it is difficult to evaluate under these circumstances.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2016, 11:27:56 AM
Come back Walter Wendy Carlos, all is forgiven?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on November 27, 2016, 11:43:12 AM
I guess subconsciously I'm inclined to attribute any Bach related recommendation to premont... ;)

I shall do my best to live up to this, but reserve the right to also recommend things which are not by Bach.

 ;) :)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: HIPster on January 28, 2017, 07:51:08 PM
Bumping this for ludwigii to post some thoughts.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Pat B on September 26, 2017, 12:42:41 PM
I just listened to BWV 1065, the quadruple harpsichord concerto after Vivaldi. Leonhardt and friends on Das Alte Werk. Slowish in the first movement, but it's a dynamic and incredibly intense performance of music that I don’t normally think of as particularly intense. The various harpsichords are more distinct than usual, via registration and placement. Remarkable.

This set deserves to be reissued (and put on spotify).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on September 26, 2017, 09:15:03 PM
I just listened to BWV 1065, the quadruple harpsichord concerto after Vivaldi. Leonhardt and friends on Das Alte Werk. Slowish in the first movement, but it's a dynamic and incredibly intense performance of music that I don’t normally think of as particularly intense. The various harpsichords are more distinct than usual, via registration and placement. Remarkable.

This set deserves to be reissued (and put on spotify).

The Leonhardt et al set is, despite the technically outdated recordings, extremely good.
Before my encounter with Moroney et al (Plectra), it used to be my go-to set. :)

No idea why is has been OOP for so long? ::)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Pat B on September 28, 2017, 06:47:02 AM
The Leonhardt et al set is, despite the technically outdated recordings, extremely good.
Before my encounter with Moroney et al (Plectra), it used to be my go-to set. :)

No idea why is has been OOP for so long? ::)

Hmm. There was something I about the Moroney set that turned me off, but I can’t remember what it was, and it’s not in my notes. I should re-spin it.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on September 28, 2017, 09:03:42 AM
Hmm. There was something I about the Moroney set that turned me off, but I can’t remember what it was, and it’s not in my notes. I should re-spin it.

I have to add that the two performances are quite different in style & approach.

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Muse Wanderer on December 10, 2017, 03:43:59 PM
Listening to the Brandenburgs as I type...

My favourite is the Jordi Savall but this Masaaki Suzuki version is a wonderful listen.

The Savall is more muscular with an exceptional darker tone and instrumental timbre. The dynamics are staggering with well seasoned fiery players who play from the heart. There is a force in the music that propels the concertos with such intensity. The 6th concerto is the real cherry on the cake - holy moly what a roller coaster. Astounding!

The Suzuki is exceptionally well recorded - BIS is renowned for their engineering. The Bach Collegium Japan have a brighter tone as they tend to favour A=460Hz as exemplified by their Bach cantata collection I love. The playing is exact, precise and at times too perfect. Suzuki manages to impart an emotionally engaging and sublime presentation of these works. The staging, imaging and resolution from my speakers is fantastic.

I may have found my ying and yang.

Savall and Suzuki, the dark and bright, the black and white

... so complementary, to die for versions of these unique concertos...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ehtEqeg7L.jpg)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/851/MI0002851799.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on December 10, 2017, 10:34:24 PM
The Leonhardt et al set is, despite the technically outdated recordings, extremely good.
Before my encounter with Moroney et al (Plectra), it used to be my go-to set. :)

No idea why is has been OOP for so long? ::)

Q

Once upon a long ago, it was reissued by Brilliant Classics.
I bought it at a throw-away-price in one of the (in)famous Kruidvat shops.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/98/7ksL48JH_o.jpg)

Right now, it's (a.o) available here:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos/dp/B00SRVBVOS/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 10, 2017, 10:59:20 PM
Once upon a long ago, it was reissued by Brilliant Classics.
I bought it at a throw-away-price in one of the (in)famous Kruidvat shops.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/98/7ksL48JH_o.jpg)


Above Que writes about Moroney's recording of the harpsichord concertos, not the Brandenburgs. There has never been any recording of the Brandenburgs with Moroney.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on December 10, 2017, 11:17:57 PM
Above Que writes about Moroney's recording of the harpsichord concertos, not the Brandenburgs. There has never been any recording of the Brandenburgs with Moroney.

Oops, early Monday morning, I guess.
I need new glasses...

I want to stress though, that Moroney should be punished severely for not recording the Brandenburgs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on December 10, 2017, 11:27:27 PM
For brandenburgs, the Zimmerman series is good too, as is Alessandrini. What do people think of I Barocchisti/Diego Fasolis?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on December 10, 2017, 11:39:11 PM
For brandenburgs, the Zimmerman series is good too, as is Alessandrini. What do people think of I Barocchisti/Diego Fasolis?

Rushed bordering the hectic.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on December 10, 2017, 11:39:48 PM
For brandenburgs, the Zimmerman series is good too, as is Alessandrini. What do people think of I Barocchisti/Diego Fasolis?

Don't know them all, but what I do know (or do I?) is that there are dozens of good recordings of the Brandenburgs, and only a few disappointments (if any).
My favs are (probably) Musica Antiqua Köln (Goebel), La Stravaganza Hamburg (Rampe) and the above by nutcase Marc mentioned Leonhardt.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on December 11, 2017, 01:04:19 AM
Once upon a long ago, it was reissued by Brilliant Classics.
I bought it at a throw-away-price in one of the (in)famous Kruidvat shops.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/98/7ksL48JH_o.jpg)

Right now, it's (a.o) available here:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos/dp/B00SRVBVOS/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Looks good!  :) But yes, I was referring to Leonhardt Consort's harpsichord concertos recordings....

My bad, since it is rather confusing all in the same thread. :P

My choice for an update on the Brandenburgs (after Harnoncourt II) has been a dark horse, recommended by Gordo:


Fits my preferences perfectly. :) But, like the conceros set on Plectra, not for the faint-hearted!  ;)

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: CB45 on December 16, 2017, 11:12:27 AM
My vote goes to the Adolf Busch Players, recorded in 1935-6 - with Rudolf Serkin splendidly vivacious in the fifth concerto (a Desert Island Discs choice for me).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on December 17, 2017, 03:23:56 AM
My vote goes to the Adolf Busch Players, recorded in 1935-6 - with Rudolf Serkin splendidly vivacious in the fifth concerto (a Desert Island Discs choice for me).

Envigourating and joyful performances indeed.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 17, 2017, 05:48:47 AM
I would probably give Egarr the edge, although I haven't seen a recommendation here that I couldn't live with.
Busch, too, is fabulous, but obviously, the sound and style betray its age.

Here are a few links to previous writings about varioud BB's that might be of some interest:



Richard Egarr’s Brandenburg Concertos

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001LJL52Q.01.L.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/egarrs-brandenburg-concertos.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/egarrs-brandenburg-concertos.html)


Adolf Busch’s Brandenburg Concertos
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8V9QnlN4290/UAvX77zNpOI/AAAAAAAADSA/pg3V-JjlcwQ/s1600/Brandenburg_Concertos_Busch_Laurson_ionarts_png.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/adolf-buschs-brandenburg-concertos.html)


Dip Your Ears, No. 122 (Kuijken's Third Brandenburgs)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6MFp05_pYs4/UA2ya_VfXmI/AAAAAAAADWg/L02xOEKwjmM/s1600/Accent_Brandenburg_Kuijken_Laurson_300.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/07/dip-your-ears-no-122-kuijkens-third.html)


Bach, Brandenburg Concertos, Jordi Savall
(Best Recordings of 2010 (# 8))

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ehtEqeg7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-8.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-8.html)


Trever Pinnock: Bach Again, at 61
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000XJ1444.01.L.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/12/trever-pinnock-bach-again-at-61.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/12/trever-pinnock-bach-again-at-61.html)


Dip Your Ears, No. 75 (Loussier's Brandenburgs)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gyl-Rw7ZcNM/UAvbQr8sHVI/AAAAAAAADTc/e_HvIY054qs/s1600/Bach_Brandenburgs_Loussier_Laurson.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/dip-your-ears-no-75.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/dip-your-ears-no-75.html)

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 11, 2018, 10:28:09 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GQGjK6I3L.jpg) I was comparing Alessandrini today with Suzuki, Zimmerman and the last Kuijken. I can't say I've been able to warm to Kuijken: very slow, pastoral, and much reverberation in the sound. Actually, I found I enjoyed Alessandrini the most today - although I haven't been listening from beginning to end. He's very warm and graceful.
Reminds me, has anyone listened to this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81UE9ANhA5L._SY355_.jpg)
?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 12, 2018, 05:49:25 AM
It's eye-opening for me to understand how a direction for a performance or recording is established. Rinaldo Alessandrini's ideas about Bach and his relation to Italian music (and his music in general) are also interesting. 
https://www.youtube.com/v/me-7nes9CEg&t=541s
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 12, 2018, 06:22:12 AM

Reminds me, has anyone listened to this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81UE9ANhA5L._SY355_.jpg)
?

Yes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTWK7MJWAAE9nTa.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Bach w/concertoItaliano & RinaldoAlessandrini on @naiverecords

http://a-fwd.to/6nyG7iI

#GoldbergVariations for small ensemble. #HIP -yet- totally unorthodox + #Passacaglia

♡♡♡ #classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection (http://a-fwd.to/6nyG7iI)

I thought it was a LOT of fun, but not perhaps so outstanding as to merit a review (from my perspective). A good GoldbergVariationVariation; a bit more HIP-esque in sound (if not conception) than the Sitkovetsky version.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 12, 2018, 06:31:40 AM
Yes.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTWK7MJWAAE9nTa.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Bach w/concertoItaliano & RinaldoAlessandrini on @naiverecords

http://a-fwd.to/6nyG7iI

#GoldbergVariations for small ensemble. #HIP -yet- totally unorthodox + #Passacaglia

♡♡♡ #classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection (http://a-fwd.to/6nyG7iI)

I thought it was a LOT of fun, but not perhaps so outstanding as to merit a review (from my perspective). A good GoldbergVariationVariation; a bit more HIP-esque in sound (if not conception) than the Sitkovetsky version.
Thanks. I'm trying to keep my wallet glued shut for a little while longer.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2018, 10:17:33 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/fb/hn/uigp29xwkhnfb_600.jpg) plus two more volumes

The sound quality of these  recordings  from Hakkinen (helped out by Hantai) is wonderful.

16' harpsichord, 1 to a part ensemble.

971 (sounding very good to me!) and 1057, but no 1049!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 12:00:31 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512J-soTqTL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Maybe I'm getting soft. I like this version even though it's fairly straightforward. I like the tastefulness of the strings here as well as the "sizing." What's out there for competition on the piano besides Gould. Other more recent offerings I mean. 
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 07, 2018, 12:39:07 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/fb/hn/uigp29xwkhnfb_600.jpg) plus two more volumes


971 (sounding very good to me!) and 1057, but no 1049!

1059??

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on May 07, 2018, 12:49:53 AM
Maybe I'm getting soft. I like this version even though it's fairly straightforward. I like the tastefulness of the strings here as well as the "sizing." What's out there for competition on the piano besides Gould. Other more recent offerings I mean.


If you look here, you will find a handful. I have not heard them.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/works/21352--bach-j-s-keyboard-concerto-no-1-in-d-minor-bwv1052/browse?size=10&view=large
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 02:38:01 AM

If you look here, you will find a handful. I have not heard them.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/works/21352--bach-j-s-keyboard-concerto-no-1-in-d-minor-bwv1052/browse?size=10&view=large
Thanks. I didn’t realize Hewitt did them.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 07, 2018, 03:36:44 AM
Thanks. I didn’t realize Hewitt did them.

I've considerably cooled on Hewitt over the years, but those recordings are still very much top-notch, to my ears! Helps to have the Australian CO, for sure:

http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 05:58:28 AM
I've considerably cooled on Hewitt over the years, but those recordings are still very much top-notch, to my ears! Helps to have the Australian CO, for sure:

http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html)
I don't listen to her much anymore either but I'm going to get this.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 07, 2018, 09:39:53 AM
What's out there for competition on the piano besides Gould. Other more recent offerings I mean.

Zoltan Kocsis/Albert Simon/Franz Liszt Music Academy.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 01:13:14 PM
I've considerably cooled on Hewitt over the years, but those recordings are still very much top-notch, to my ears! Helps to have the Australian CO, for sure:

http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2005/07/dip-your-ears-no-39.html)
What annoys me about Hewitt’s concertos is how much she plays with dynamics. Tristano really resists that. Bravo for Tristano. Maybe many pianists cannot resist the temptation. I can’t take the Hewitt.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 07, 2018, 01:19:24 PM
I've considerably cooled on Hewitt over the years, but those recordings are still very much top-notch, to my ears! Helps to have the Australian CO, for sure:

Hewitt holding steady for me.

For the concerti, I also like Garilov



Didn't like Schiff/Decca.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 01:20:18 PM
Zoltan Kocsis/Albert Simon/Franz Liszt Music Academy.
samples doing good
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Josquin13 on May 07, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
1. David Fray's single CD is very recommendable, and easily my current favorite among piano recordings (but unfortunately he hasn't recorded all of the concertos):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRyLYtBLIOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8STlfXWKfVI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxBQwwiBu1Q



Among complete sets, Andrei Gavrilov's set is brilliant, but more on the romantic side than either Fray or Tristano.

Andrea Bacchetti's recent set is worthwhile too, but I'd advise you to sample it first, to see how you feel about his ornamentation:



Gould is Gould, and his playing is wonderful, but the orchestra sounds like they're playing Vaughn Williams in the slow movements.  Gould was keenly interested in the period movement in the years before he died, and IMO would have recorded these concertos differently, if he'd had another go at them.

2. On harpsichord, I'd recommend the following complete set, played on antique harpsichords, with a reduced ensemble: which is ideal, as the harpsichord part doesn't get drowned out in the mix:



Among larger ensemble recordings (with the harpsichord closely miked so it can be heard), Ton Koopman's set with the Amsterdam Baroque Soloists is excellent.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 07, 2018, 06:35:09 PM
1. David Fray's single CD is very recommendable, and easily my current favorite among piano recordings (but unfortunately he hasn't recorded all of the concertos):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRyLYtBLIOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8STlfXWKfVI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxBQwwiBu1Q



Among complete sets, Andrei Gavrilov's set is brilliant, but more on the romantic side than either Fray or Tristano.

Andrea Bacchetti's recent set is worthwhile too, but I'd advise you to sample it first, to see how you feel about his ornamentation:



Gould is Gould, and his playing is wonderful, but the orchestra sounds like they're playing Vaughn Williams in the slow movements.  Gould was keenly interested in the period movement in the years before he died, and IMO would have recorded these concertos differently, if he'd had another go at them.

2. On harpsichord, I'd recommend the following complete set, played on antique harpsichords, with a reduced ensemble: which is ideal, as the harpsichord part doesn't get drowned out in the mix:



Among larger ensemble recordings (with the harpsichord closely miked so it can be heard), Ton Koopman's set with the Amsterdam Baroque Soloists is excellent.
I will check out Frey. I like the Plectrum in addition to Cuiller, Dantone, Sponseller and Beatrice Martin. E.T.A.: Fray is compelling stuff! thanks!!!
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Josquin13 on May 08, 2018, 05:35:49 AM
Milk writes, "I will check out Frey. I like the Plectrum in addition to Cuiller, Dantone, Sponseller and Beatrice Martin. E.T.A.: Fray is compelling stuff! thanks!!!"

You're most welcome.  Yes, I can't imagine any Bach lover not enjoying Fray's CD.  He's very gifted.

I'm pleased to hear that you already know and like the Plectrum set (not everyone knows about it).  Sponseller and Beatrice Martin are new names to me. I'll check them out, thanks.  I share your enthusiasm for Cuiller and Dantone, though I slightly prefer Cuiller here.  I considered mentioning him, but was trying to limit my choices (otherwise I would have).  Another single CD recording of the concertos that I've liked is the one from Pierre Hantai and Le Concert Français (with François Fernandez on violin), on Naive:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concerti-pour-clavecin-1044/dp/B0000DETBH/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1525787629&sr=1-3&keywords=Pierre+hantai+bach+concertos

https://www.amazon.com/Goldberg-Variations-Concertos-J-S-BACH/dp/B002NVLXBO/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1525787629&sr=1-7&keywords=Pierre+hantai+bach+concertos

Or, the original issue (same program as above):



If you (or anyone else) is interested in sampling further, the 3 volume set by harpsichordist Lars-Ulrik Mortensen and Concerto Copenhagen (on CPO) is worth considering too.  There's also Bob Van Asperen's set with Melante Amsterdam (& Gustav Leonhardt).

Among recordings that I don't know, I've read positive reviews for harpsichordist Andras Staier's survey with the Freiburger Barockorchester, as well as Aapo Häkkinen's set with the Helsinki Baroque Orchestra, which Mandryka mentions (& which I hope to hear at some point).

But it sounds like you're presently more interested in exploring piano recordings of these works.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 08, 2018, 07:59:29 PM
Milk writes, "I will check out Frey. I like the Plectrum in addition to Cuiller, Dantone, Sponseller and Beatrice Martin. E.T.A.: Fray is compelling stuff! thanks!!!"

You're most welcome.  Yes, I can't imagine any Bach lover not enjoying Fray's CD.  He's very gifted.

I'm pleased to hear that you already know and like the Plectrum set (not everyone knows about it).  Sponseller and Beatrice Martin are new names to me. I'll check them out, thanks.  I share your enthusiasm for Cuiller and Dantone, though I slightly prefer Cuiller here.  I considered mentioning him, but was trying to limit my choices (otherwise I would have).  Another single CD recording of the concertos that I've liked is the one from Pierre Hantai and Le Concert Français (with François Fernandez on violin), on Naive:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Concerti-pour-clavecin-1044/dp/B0000DETBH/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1525787629&sr=1-3&keywords=Pierre+hantai+bach+concertos

https://www.amazon.com/Goldberg-Variations-Concertos-J-S-BACH/dp/B002NVLXBO/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1525787629&sr=1-7&keywords=Pierre+hantai+bach+concertos

Or, the original issue (same program as above):



If you (or anyone else) is interested in sampling further, the 3 volume set by harpsichordist Lars-Ulrik Mortensen and Concerto Copenhagen (on CPO) is worth considering too.  There's also Bob Van Asperen's set with Melante Amsterdam (& Gustav Leonhardt).

Among recordings that I don't know, I've read positive reviews for harpsichordist Andras Staier's survey with the Freiburger Barockorchester, as well as Aapo Häkkinen's set with the Helsinki Baroque Orchestra, which Mandryka mentions (& which I hope to hear at some point).

But it sounds like you're presently more interested in exploring piano recordings of these works.
Häkkinen is good.
I might check out the Hantai for 1044. BTW: have you or anyone ever heard this (w/zvi meniker on fortepiano for 1044):
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Meniker-Z-O01a[HMF-CD].jpg)
? It’s interesting. Maybe the only fortepiano recording of a Bach concerto. It works well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 09, 2018, 08:40:40 PM
Fray is definitely the tops for me now for piano. Tharaud is interesting though because I think he's mixing with a period group here if I'm not mistaken.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71r9ju6GtwL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Josquin13 on May 14, 2018, 07:34:41 AM
Milk--No, I've not heard the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin disc, sorry.  I tend to find them hit and miss, very good players, but sometimes their quick tempi are too breathless and quirky, for me.

Les Violins du Roy play on modern instruments, but according to current HIP practices (in so far as that can be accomplished on present day instruments).  I've not heard their recordings with Tharaud, but can find him on the cool side, unlike Fray.  Glad to hear you're enjoying Fray.

Of interest--Fabio Bonizzoni and La Risonanza have just released Volume 1 of a new Bach Harpsichord Concerto cycle, on hybrid SACD.  They wisely (& appropriately) use only one player to a part (for a total of five musicians plus the harpsichordist)--so the project sounds promising.  I've liked Bonizzoni's solo Bach playing in the past--of the Goldberg Variations & Art of the Fugue.  (He plays Scarlatti well too.)  I'll be buying this one.

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=12954#reviews


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 15, 2018, 12:33:50 AM
Milk--No, I've not heard the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin disc, sorry.  I tend to find them hit and miss, very good players, but sometimes their quick tempi are too breathless and quirky, for me.

Les Violins du Roy play on modern instruments, but according to current HIP practices (in so far as that can be accomplished on present day instruments).  I've not heard their recordings with Tharaud, but can find him on the cool side, unlike Fray.  Glad to hear you're enjoying Fray.

Of interest--Fabio Bonizzoni and La Risonanza have just released Volume 1 of a new Bach Harpsichord Concerto cycle, on hybrid SACD.  They wisely (& appropriately) use only one player to a part (for a total of five musicians plus the harpsichordist)--so the project sounds promising.  I've liked Bonizzoni's solo Bach playing in the past--of the Goldberg Variations & Art of the Fugue.  (He plays Scarlatti well too.)  I'll be buying this one.

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=12954#reviews


For Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin I can't say I'm a big fan but the novelty of hearing fortepiano on 1044 is something. Bonizzoni looks good although I have so many nice HIP ones already.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on May 17, 2018, 02:25:28 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/fb/hn/uigp29xwkhnfb_600.jpg) plus two more volumes

The sound quality of these  recordings  from Hakkinen (helped out by Hantai) is wonderful.

16' harpsichord, 1 to a part ensemble.

971 (sounding very good to me!) and 1057, but no 1049!
Listening to this today. I also quite like this. Great balance and juicy instrument.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on March 22, 2019, 05:38:16 AM
(https://e-cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/c145e4bad50ec575291a8041c073afd1/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

I assume this must have been mentioned some time ago but it will be coming out in the next few days. Contents: BWVs 527, 529, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1045, 1052R, 1056R, 1060R, 1067 and sinfonias from BWVs 21, 174 & 182.

Who needs another recording of the Violin Concertos?  Certainly not me having acquired the excellent set by Carmignola not so long ago.  And Isabelle Faust has herself recorded the concertos at least once before.  But I didn't resist very hard, and having just listened to disc 2 of this set two things must be said:

1. These are wonderful performances by all concerned, and most beautifully recorded and balanced.  The orchestra, with 8 violins is perhaps a tad larger than I am used to in this music, but with a real spring in their step and very well integrated - the soloist(s) just - just - poking out from the front desk to make their points and then stepping back into the mix.  Faust's direct style perfectly framed in a sports-GT-like setting.

2. There is a lot more music on offer here than is immediately obvious.  You have to check the small print!  It's a 2-disc set and amw has of course listed the contents for us above.  They include a couple of the Trio Sonatas, in arrangement.  Of Bach's orchestral music, I particularly like the four Orchestral Suites, and No.2 is presented here, transcribed for the violin (rather than flute), in a performance of agility, poise, balance - just everything you could want.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on May 28, 2019, 11:58:39 PM
As I wrote in another thread I tend to prefer the non-keyboard (violin or reconstructed) versions of the keyboard concerti. However, I also like the keyboard versions and one has to admit that for several concertos they are the authentic versions as the supposed originals have been lost.
These preferences are why I do not have many recordings of them.
I have

on piano: Gould, A major, g minor f minor with Feltsman; one disc with Katsaris, the ones with Edwin Fischer in the EMI icon box and probably another one or two of the d minor as filler.

on harpsichord: Mortensen in  d minor, D major, E major, a few more of the d minor in boxes (Leonhardt, Hantai)
Pinnock for the multiples w/o BWV 1060, 1061+62 w/ Musica alta ripa

So I would be in the market for another disc with piano to get a modern piano version of the E major 1053 (maybe my favorite of the ones without an "original") and I have only Gould and the historical Fischer) and another harpsichord disc for the A major, g minor and f minor (I can skip the F major as I clearly prefer the Brandenburg version). An easy option for the latter would be Vol.2 of Mortensen/cpo that includes the F major (still quite a short disc, they put the multiple ones in another volume) but I am open to other recommendations.

On piano there is a selection with Schiff on eloquence. The highly regarded anthologies by Tharaud and Fray don't include 1053 but there are certainly plenty of other piano recordings.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 29, 2019, 02:36:43 AM
How about this, Kocsis playing, it looks like it's on youtube so you can check it out for yourself. Kocsis is like a latter day Edwin Fischer IMO, he has the same demonic intensity.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QZHMAYm9L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on May 30, 2019, 07:17:11 AM
Thanks; most of the Kocsis is on youtube (a few single movements seem to be missing or misplaced). I think youtube will suffice for now. I am not willing to pay considerable money for a used copy of a > 40 year old recording. It's really a pity that hungaroton is not better distributed or made cheap reissues or licensed their recordings to someone else (they did but a long time ago).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 30, 2019, 07:22:04 AM
My preference is Gavrilov



I've also listened to Schiff/Decca and Hewitt/Hyperion, but Gavrilov made the strongest impression on me.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Mandryka on May 30, 2019, 07:43:02 AM
How about this, Kocsis playing, it looks like it's on youtube so you can check it out for yourself. Kocsis is like a latter day Edwin Fischer IMO, he has the same demonic intensity.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QZHMAYm9L.jpg)

But it’s available directly from Hungaroton.

https://hungarotonmusic.com/classical/bach-concertos-for-p2549.html
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on June 29, 2019, 10:09:59 AM
Koopman plays a reconstruction of BWV 1059 on organ. I have this also as an "oboe" concerto where (I think) all the movements are taking from cantatas with the somewhat famous central movement coming from the opening of BWV 156) In Koopman's version the outer movements seem based on the same material (but obviously with organ) but the central movement is completely different. It does sound like a trio sonata movement but I don't think it's from one of the well known 6 organ trios? Can anybody identify the basis of this piece?
(I only have the spartanic "Bonsai" edition that does not have this kind of information.)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Marc on June 29, 2019, 10:32:49 AM
Koopman plays a reconstruction of BWV 1059 on organ. I have this also as an "oboe" concerto where (I think) all the movements are taking from cantatas with the somewhat famous central movement coming from the opening of BWV 156) In Koopman's version the outer movements seem based on the same material (but obviously with organ) but the central movement is completely different. It does sound like a trio sonata movement but I don't think it's from one of the well known 6 organ trios? Can anybody identify the basis of this piece?
(I only have the spartanic "Bonsai" edition that does not have this kind of information.)

It's an arrangement of the aria "Gott hat alles wohl gemacht!" from Cantata BWV 35.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on June 29, 2019, 10:31:03 PM
Thanks! I have heard this cantata but apparently not remember it well enough.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 20, 2019, 07:49:58 AM
Another question for people with different issues/LPs.
I have a box with Leppard's Brandenburg concerti, suites etc. but the information is rather incomplete. Leppard is mentioned as harpsichordist of the a minor triple concerto and there is another hpschd player mentioned for two of the suites. Is Leppard playing in all the other pieces, incl. Brandenburg 5? And is Neil Black the leading oboist also in the suites?
And what piece is the movement played as middle movement of Brandenburg 3.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 20, 2019, 09:07:04 AM
Another question for people with different issues/LPs.
I have a box with Leppard's Brandenburg concerti, suites etc. but the information is rather incomplete. Leppard is mentioned as harpsichordist of the a minor triple concerto and there is another hpschd player mentioned for two of the suites. Is Leppard playing in all the other pieces, incl. Brandenburg 5? And is Neil Black the leading oboist also in the suites?
And what piece is the movement played as middle movement of Brandenburg 3.

I do not own Leppard's orchestral suites (I know I should, since I own about 50 other recordings of the suites), but this may help:

https://www.discogs.com/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-English-Chamber-Orchestra-Raymond-Leppard-Die-4-Orchestersuiten/release/3304736

As to the Brandenburgs Leppard is credited for leading all the concertos from the harpsichord. The inserted slow movement in concerto 3 is the Largo from the Sonata in G Major BWV 1021 for violin and basso continuo.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 20, 2019, 12:38:23 PM
thanks, this has a little more info than my cds (it's a 4 disc set from Philips 80s/90s dark red/silver line with minimal information) and confirms some of them, too. I suspected the Leppard was on Harpsichord except for the mentioned two suites but it was not clear.
I finally begin liking the suites (which used to be some of my least favorite Bach). The b minor works better for me in minimalist (MAK or Malloch) fashion, but I quite like Leppard in the others. Looking forward to listening to the Brandenburgs as well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 20, 2019, 01:22:36 PM
thanks, this has a little more info than my cds (it's a 4 disc set from Philips 80s/90s dark red/silver line with minimal information) and confirms some of them, too. I suspected the Leppard was on Harpsichord except for the mentioned two suites but it was not clear.
I finally begin liking the suites (which used to be some of my least favorite Bach). The b minor works better for me in minimalist (MAK or Malloch) fashion, but I quite like Leppard in the others. Looking forward to listening to the Brandenburgs as well.

If the information on your set is too sparse, I may do a list of the soloists in the Brandenburgs, if you want.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 21, 2019, 07:43:50 AM
Don't bother for now. I am travelling over the weekend, so I cannot be precise but in fact most soloists are listed, there were just a few odd ommissions like some oboe players in the suites and that ambiguity if Leppard really plays in  all pieces besides two suites.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 04:59:04 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 4 [Britten]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VHA6T4Z1L._AC_.jpg)


Modern flutes instead of recorders, particularly in this work, I can no longer tolerate in my golden years, unless the performances are exceptional. Coupled with an overall saccharine approach, to my ears, in these concertos I am afraid it is now time for a cull here.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 07, 2020, 06:38:27 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VHA6T4Z1L._AC_.jpg)

Modern flutes instead of recorders, particularly in this work, I can no longer tolerate in my golden years, unless the performances are exceptional. Coupled with an overall saccharine approach, to my ears, in these concertos I am afraid it is now time for a cull here.

I see where you come from, but being a Brandenburg concerto completist I would never dream of culling Brittens recording. Most of the soloists are legendary (Ifor James, David Mason, Richard Adeney, Philip Ledger, Emanuel Hurwitz et.c.). 

Which modern instruments recordings do you consider exceptional?
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 06:44:17 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 6 [Britten]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZEAC1CJ4L._AC_.jpg)


Concerto No. 6 suffers from the thick, heavy textures of the modern instruments because of the sonorities of the instruments being so closely related. Perhaps some thinning out of the instrumentation may have solved the problem [one can barely listen to the slow movement]. This CD, like the 1-4 set above, will also be culled (even if it does disappoint our good colleague (premont).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 06:50:05 AM
I see where you come from, but being a Brandenburg concerto completist I would never dream of culling Brittens recording. Most of the soloists are legendary (Ifor James, David Mason, Richard Adeney, Philip Ledger, Emanuel Hurwitz et.c.). 

Which modern instruments recordings do you consider exceptional?

Unfortunately I really cannot listen to those Britten presentations any more. I did have a tolerance for them at one time but I never really liked them. Perhaps I am just getting more brutal in keeping/culling choices as I get older.

The reference I made above to above was the Busch cycle....


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RxjVsGPiL._AC_SX425_.jpg)


....and yes, before anyone jumps in I acknowledge that this is not a modern recording even though it is played on modern instruments.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 07, 2020, 07:12:14 AM
I have both Busch and Britten in boxes, not sure if I ever listened to the former (got that box for chamber music, obviously) and I recall that I was not that impressed with Britten while being aware that it is rated pretty highly. My favorite (and in fact the only other modern instrument I completely have on CD) modern instrument recording that I could live with as my only recording of the music, is Leppard's. It's only about 10 year or so later than Britten, but stylistically much closer to "modern" (i.e. last ca.40 years HIPish) recordings.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 07, 2020, 08:05:04 AM
The reference I made above to above was the Busch cycle....

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RxjVsGPiL._AC_SX425_.jpg)

....and yes, before anyone jumps in I acknowledge that this is not a modern recording even though it is played on modern instruments.

JS Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 6 [Britten]

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZEAC1CJ4L._AC_.jpg)

Concerto No. 6 suffers from the thick, heavy textures of the modern instruments because of the sonorities of the instruments being so closely related. Perhaps some thinning out of the instrumentation may have solved the problem [one can barely listen to the slow movement]. This CD, like the 1-4 set above, will also be culled (even if it does disappoint our good colleague (premont).

I think there is a similar problem with thick and heavy textures in Busch's sixth concerto, since he - like Britten - uses more players per part for this concerto. This  kind of scoring wasn't that uncommon right up to about 1965. But I also prefer the Busch set to the Britten set, particularly concertos 1,2 and 4.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 11:25:26 AM
I have both Busch and Britten in boxes, not sure if I ever listened to the former (got that box for chamber music, obviously) and I recall that I was not that impressed with Britten while being aware that it is rated pretty highly. My favorite (and in fact the only other modern instrument I completely have on CD) modern instrument recording that I could live with as my only recording of the music, is Leppard's. It's only about 10 year or so later than Britten, but stylistically much closer to "modern" (i.e. last ca.40 years HIPish) recordings.

Yes, I also have the Leppard set but that is on LP. I like the Leppard cycle, I find the tempi on the slower side but the music is well played. At the moment I do not need to cull my vinyl so he remains untouched.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 11:31:21 AM


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RxjVsGPiL._AC_SX425_.jpg)


I think there is a similar problem with thick and heavy textures in Busch's sixth concerto, since he - like Britten - uses more players per part for this concerto. This  kind of scoring wasn't that uncommon right up to about 1965. But I also prefer the Busch set to the Britten set, particularly concertos 1,2 and 4.

Yes indeed, I would agree with you on every point. The sixth was a particular problem with regard to texture in in older, big band type presentations. How the fourth and the sixth concertos are presented has long been an acid test for me when listening to a Brandenburg Concertos cycle that I have not previously heard.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 07, 2020, 11:45:29 PM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Tafelmusik]


(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71axsg8P8QL._SS500_.jpg)


I have always thought that this was a weak set when compared with other Tafelmusik performances that I have heard. Plodding is unkind but perhaps somewhat uninspired is more appropriate. There was not much of a spark in the performances but Nos. 4 and 5 would be an exception to this. The solo playing of Steele-Perkins in No. 2 is not always of the highest calibre with him missing a number of those higher register notes.

This set that will be culled from my collection.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on July 08, 2020, 01:36:54 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 6 [Britten]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZEAC1CJ4L._AC_.jpg)
Concerto No. 6 suffers from the thick, heavy textures of the modern instruments because of the sonorities of the instruments being so closely related. Perhaps some thinning out of the instrumentation may have solved the problem [one can barely listen to the slow movement]. This CD, like the 1-4 set above, will also be culled (even if it does disappoint our good colleague (premont).

I do like the harpsichord solo in No.5 though - probably the best of any I've heard.  For about 50 years I always thought it was Britten himself playing this but was corrected upthread - Philip Ledger.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 08, 2020, 02:29:52 AM
I think the 5th concerto can take more different approaches (inkl. modern piano like Edwin Fischer and others) and still "work" than the others. For me even modern piano is less of a problem than the poor balances in 3 and 6 with large bodies of strings or the recorder vs. flute problem in the 4th, not even to begin with the brass/woodwind mixtures of the first two.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 08, 2020, 02:50:57 AM
Yes, indeed, like so much of JS Bach’s wonderful music there is so much that each of us can and do take for ourselves. That is one of the wonders of his wonderful music. And so it is in the Brandenburg Concertos. Interpretations can be revelatory but can also impair the enjoyment of a work, particularly if it is important to us. I suppose that is why I am culling at the moment. I have sets that are far more appealing and enjoyable in this music to me.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 08, 2020, 02:58:59 AM
I think the 5th concerto can take more different approaches (inkl. modern piano like Edwin Fischer and others) and still "work" than the others. For me even modern piano is less of a problem than the poor balances in 3 and 6 with large bodies of strings or the recorder vs. flute problem in the 4th, not even to begin with the brass/woodwind mixtures of the first two.

I tend to agree with this. Generally the balance is more natural though, when period instruments are used. With modern instruments I find the trumpet to be the most difficult instrument to balance, at least on recordings. And also a too big string section may drown the harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 08, 2020, 03:16:44 AM
Yes, indeed, like so much of JS Bach’s wonderful music there is so much that each of us can and do take for ourselves. That is one of the wonders of his wonderful music. And so it is in the Brandenburg Concertos. Interpretations can be revelatory but can also impair the enjoyment of a work, particularly if it is important to us. I suppose that is why I am culling at the moment. I have sets that are far more appealing and enjoyable in this music to me.

I do not see different musicians appproach to the Brandenburg concertos as a restriction but rather as some kind of kaleidoscopic opulence. Each set has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can't  recall a set (I have heard a lot) which severely impaired the enjoyment of the music, But of course there are sets I prefer to others.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: vers la flamme on July 08, 2020, 02:27:21 PM
I have only one complete set: Hogwood/AAM. No complaints, but I've never fell in love with the Brandenburgs, and maybe the recording has something to do with it...? Don't know. I also have Pinnock/English Concert doing just the two F majors and the G major. I might like that one marginally better than the Hogwood, but that's it.

Two I'm curious about are Britten/ECO (I'm OK with non-HIP Bach generally speaking) and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (sans conductor...?)—I'll try and check out both and see if it's time for a new Brandenburg set.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 08, 2020, 11:42:48 PM
I have only one complete set: Hogwood/AAM. No complaints, but I've never fell in love with the Brandenburgs, and maybe the recording has something to do with it...? Don't know. I also have Pinnock/English Concert doing just the two F majors and the G major. I might like that one marginally better than the Hogwood, but that's it.

Two I'm curious about are Britten/ECO (I'm OK with non-HIP Bach generally speaking) and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (sans conductor...?)—I'll try and check out both and see if it's time for a new Brandenburg set.

I would consider the Hogwood to be a good cycle. The Britten will be a very different sound. Perhaps that might do it for you. If no, then it is definitely the music itself that does not appeal to you.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 08, 2020, 11:49:41 PM
I do not see different musicians appproach to the Brandenburg concertos as a restriction but rather as some kind of kaleidoscopic opulence. Each set has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can't  recall a set (I have heard a lot) which severely impaired the enjoyment of the music, But of course there are sets I prefer to others.

Yes, I would generally agree with this [with the possible exception of the Britten above  ;D] but what to do with music [not just the Brandenburgs] that is not listened to in years and is now taking up valuable shelf space? I would, in an ideal world, like to keep them for reference but unfortunately I am now getting too tight for storage.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aukhawk on July 09, 2020, 12:58:59 AM
I threw away all my jewel cases and just kept the CDs** wrapped in their inserts - I would estimate an eightfold reduction in space used.

** I never play them - don't even have a CD player - all stored on HD - but I do sometimes like to refer to the booklets.

Two I'm curious about are Britten/ECO (I'm OK with non-HIP Bach generally speaking) and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (sans conductor...?)—I'll try and check out both and see if it's time for a new Brandenburg set.

For differing interpretations of the word "new"  ;)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2020, 01:05:56 AM
I have only one complete set: Hogwood/AAM. No complaints, but I've never fell in love with the Brandenburgs, and maybe the recording has something to do with it...? Don't know. I also have Pinnock/English Concert doing just the two F majors and the G major. I might like that one marginally better than the Hogwood, but that's it.

Two I'm curious about are Britten/ECO (I'm OK with non-HIP Bach generally speaking) and Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (sans conductor...?)—I'll try and check out both and see if it's time for a new Brandenburg set.
Akademie für Alte Musik is a very good set, somewhat more "modern" HIP than Hogwood (and wasn't Hogwood using some early/alternative versions for some of the concerti?) For modern instruments, Marriner and Leppard are considerably more "modern" than Britten but this also means that the difference to the more recent HIP recordings is not as strong.
I am only in love with the 5th and maybe the 3rd concerto but I like the rest as well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 09, 2020, 01:40:48 AM
I threw away all my jewel cases and just kept the CDs** wrapped in their inserts - I would estimate an eightfold reduction in space used.

** I never play them - don't even have a CD player - all stored on HD - but I do sometimes like to refer to the booklets.


No, I could not do that. I did think of that but I like the display element of my CD library, just like my books. So I am suffering for my prejudices.
I also do not like the HD/computer music thing - it is just not for me. Having said that, I will not totally discard my culled discs. Those will be "kept" as I will copy them to my hard drive for reference but I will probably will rarely listen to them at best.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Biffo on July 09, 2020, 02:11:39 AM
I have never owned a set of Brandenburgs on modern instruments though I did hear them played live by Marriner/ASMF many years ago. The first set I bought was from the Linde Consort on cassette, since replaced by CDs. I also have Pinnock and the English Concert and Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano. These fulfill all my needs with the Linde Consort still my favourite.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 09, 2020, 02:35:33 AM
I have never owned a set of Brandenburgs on modern instruments though I did hear them played live by Marriner/ASMF many years ago. The first set I bought was from the Linde Consort on cassette, since replaced by CDs. I also have Pinnock and the English Concert and Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano. These fulfill all my needs with the Linde Consort still my favourite.

That is interesting because Linde was also my first CD purchase of the Brandenburgs and remains a constant favourite with me.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: hvbias on July 09, 2020, 06:07:16 AM
It was Alessandrini's recordings of the Branderburgs that really re-ignited my love for these works. Weird thing about me that I don't know if others experience, finding a particularly great performance of well loved work(s) will having me digging out all my old favorites.

I would like to hear Dantone record them, I imagine he has interesting things to say.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: CB45 on July 09, 2020, 08:02:11 AM
I find Serkin's contribution to the 5th Brandenburg in the Busch performances incomparable....
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 09, 2020, 08:16:31 AM
Yes, I would generally agree with this [with the possible exception of the Britten above  ;D] but what to do with music [not just the Brandenburgs] that is not listened to in years and is now taking up valuable shelf space? I would, in an ideal world, like to keep them for reference but unfortunately I am now getting too tight for storage.

Space is of course a problem for me too, and I have also culled some CDs, which i thought I wouldn't listen to any more. But before culling I have made a digital copy on a HD (and a safety copy on another HD). However I would never cull a recording of the Brandenburg concertos in general - or anything by Bach on period instruments.

P.S.: Coincidentally my favorite recording of the Brandenburg concertos is also the Linde version and has been since I acquired it back in the LP age.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 09, 2020, 08:23:12 AM
Quote from: hvbias link=topic=981.msg1304487#msg1304487 date=1594307236,,
I would like to hear Dantone record them, I imagine he has interesting things to say.

I am convinced, that he will do this at some point. One can hear him play the harpsichord on Abbado's second recording, the one with the Mozart orchestra.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 10, 2020, 12:06:41 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Musica Amphion/Belder]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/519J4z0HNuL._AC_SX425_.jpg)


Up for discussion is the Belder version of the Brandenburgs.

I have not listened to this set for many years. Listening again, I find it to be not a bad set. All of the performances are light and airy with good pace and clarity and are well performed, particularly No. 6 which is interesting. However, because I find nothing “special” in these particular performances this is another set that I am considering culling from my collection.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Daverz on July 10, 2020, 12:46:21 AM
Hurwitz just did a video on recorded sets of the Brandenburgs.  Some may find his general comments on Bach very annoying

https://www.youtube.com/v/R2SIv9lUYSA

In other Bach listening, I really enjoyed this Concerto in D minor BWV 596

https://www.youtube.com/v/w2upDLfG2Os


Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 10, 2020, 01:29:40 AM
Hurwitz just did a video on recorded sets of the Brandenburgs.  Some may find his general comments on Bach very annoying

https://www.youtube.com/v/R2SIv9lUYSA


I find him annoying anyway so perhaps I will give that one a miss  ;D
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 10, 2020, 02:04:01 AM
I haven't watched that one yet. Overall, I was positively surprised by his video series. True, he has an annoying voice (why do so many Americans have rather high pitched voices?) and manners but of the dozen or so I watched, I found most entertaining and interesting enough. However, I'd say that his forte is romantic through modern orchestral music and most other fields will either be mostly standard recommendations (e.g. Verdi Requiem), not very informative at all or idiosyncratic (e.g. Handel op.6 where the Musici of Montreal are his faves).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 10, 2020, 02:10:24 AM
I haven't watched that one yet. Overall, I was positively surprised by his video series. True, he has an annoying voice (why do so many Americans have rather high pitched voices?) and manners but of the dozen or so I watched, I found most entertaining and interesting enough. However, I'd say that his forte is romantic through modern orchestral music and most other fields will either be mostly standard recommendations (e.g. Verdi Requiem), not very informative at all or idiosyncratic (e.g. Handel op.6 where the Musici of Montreal are his faves).

Also, we have been forewarned....


Quote
Hurwitz just did a video on recorded sets of the Brandenburgs.  Some may find his general comments on Bach very annoying

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: amw on July 10, 2020, 02:30:28 AM
I watched it at 1.5x speed, which was slightly more amusing. His choice here (Leonhardt on Seon) is a pretty standard recommendation I think though.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Biffo on July 10, 2020, 05:03:11 AM
For anyone wanting an alternative to Hurwitz there is BBC Record Review Building a Library podcast available - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p05rpy47.

Sara Mohr-Pietsch is the reviewer. I hope I am not spoiling it but her top three are Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra and the European Brandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock joint very close second. Leonhardt didn't even rate a mention. I listened to one concerto from each (on Spotify) - Nos 1, 4 & 5 respectively. For what it is worth I favoured Pinnock/EBE though I enjoyed the other two as well. Whether I add another set to my collection is another matter.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Que on July 10, 2020, 05:15:53 AM
I hope I am not spoiling it but her top three are Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra and the European Brandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock joint very close second. Leonhardt didn't even rate a mention. I listened to one concerto from each (on Spotify) - Nos 1, 4 & 5 respectively. For what it is worth I favoured Pinnock/EBE though I enjoyed the other two as well. Whether I add another set to my collection is another matter.

Gardiner and Pinnock in the Top 3...
I guess if it's from a quintessentially British source like the BBC, that's hardly a surprise.  ;)

No Leonhardt Consort, Linde-Consort, Consentus Musicus Wien (Harnoncourt) or Hofkapelle München (Rüdiger Lotter)?
Reallly....   :D

As far as Hurwitz is concerned: don't take any advice on Bach from people who do not have a wider appreciation of Baroque Music!

Q
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 10, 2020, 05:31:20 AM
For anyone wanting an alternative to Hurwitz there is BBC Record Review Building a Library podcast available - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p05rpy47.

Sara Mohr-Pietsch is the reviewer. I hope I am not spoiling it but her top three are Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra and the European Brandenburg Ensemble/Pinnock joint very close second. Leonhardt didn't even rate a mention. I listened to one concerto from each (on Spotify) - Nos 1, 4 & 5 respectively. For what it is worth I favoured Pinnock/EBE though I enjoyed the other two as well. Whether I add another set to my collection is another matter.

As much as I greatly admire Gardiner in Bach, particularly in the vocal music with his wonderful Monteverdi choir, his set of Brandenburgs, which I own, would not come close to the top for me. Each to his own taste, which I suppose what this whole forum is about.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 10, 2020, 05:32:11 AM

As far as Hurwitz is concerned: don't take any advice on Bach from people who do not have a wider appreciation of Baroque Music!

Q

I would have to agree with that piece of advice.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Biffo on July 10, 2020, 05:33:26 AM
Gardiner and Pinnock in the Top 3...
I guess if it's from a quintessentially British source like the BBC, that's hardly a surprise.  ;)

No Leonhardt Consort, Linde-Consort, Consentus Musicus Wien (Harnoncourt) or Hofkapelle München (Rüdiger Lotter)?
Reallly....   :D

As far as Hurwitz is concerned: don't take any advice on Bach from people who do not have a wider appreciation of Baroque Music!

Q

This is the standard (mandatory?) gripe in this forum. S M-P surveyed a wide range of options including Harnoncourt and Alessandrini. One-and-a-half of the top three were non-British. Few of the older recordings found favour, including Marriner/ASMF.

Personally I found it difficult to chose between Pinnock and Freiburg, if I had listened to different concerti it might have come out different.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: JBS on July 10, 2020, 07:59:34 AM
My top two would be Gardiner and Goebel. Not sure who I would name as the third.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Biffo on July 11, 2020, 02:18:55 AM
My top two would be Gardiner and Goebel. Not sure who I would name as the third.

Goebel is one of my favourite artists, along with Savall, but mainly in pre-Bach music; both got fleeting mentions in the review; I haven't heard either in the Brandenburgs.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on July 11, 2020, 06:39:38 AM
The Zimmerman Brandenburgs are the best-sounding recordings that I’ve heard. Alessandro is good.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 14, 2020, 12:15:25 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Richter]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vSBPYn5GL._AC_SX425_.jpg)


Not culling  ;), just listening, again.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Daverz on July 14, 2020, 01:19:18 AM
(Leonhardt on Seon) is a pretty standard recommendation I think though.

It certainly was 30+ years ago (for example in Bill Parker's Building a Classical Record Library circa 1985).  I was just listening to this, and I think it holds up very well.

My favorite of the 2000s was the Akademie für Alte Musik, Berlin.

Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Biffo on July 14, 2020, 02:39:43 AM
JS Bach: Brandenburg Concertos [Richter]


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vSBPYn5GL._AC_SX425_.jpg)


Not culling  ;), just listening, again.

Just checked wiki and was surprised to see Karl Richter died as long ago as 1981. He is my mainstay for the cantatas. For a time I thought his Matthew Passion was too slow but now I quite like it. I don't know his Brandenburgs at all.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 14, 2020, 03:16:53 AM
The Richter instrumental recordings were very common in the 70s and 80s. They are rather stiff, I think, and not as good as e.g. Leppard or Marriner. He died rather young and his vocal Bach (and maybe also some keybard) recordings can still be worthwhile, not only for historical significance.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 14, 2020, 04:39:54 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vSBPYn5GL._AC_SX425_.jpg)

Just checked wiki and was surprised to see Karl Richter died as long ago as 1981. He is my mainstay for the cantatas. For a time I thought his Matthew Passion was too slow but now I quite like it. I don't know his Brandenburgs at all.

They are not bad performances. The orchestral and solo instrumental playing is very fine and the sound quality is also good. The speeds are also quick. Everything seems right individually but the overall result does nor sparkle. I suppose that this ties in with Jo498's comment but I do like to hear them once in a while as an example of that era.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 04:59:02 AM
A fast count reveals that to my knowledge there are 180 complete sets made between 1927 and to day. It's difficult to choose favorites from that large pool, but still:

Period instruments top eleven in chronological order:

Nicolaus Harnoncourt / Concentus Musicus, Wien (first recording -Telefunken 1963)

Gustav Leonhardt / Dutch ensemble ad hoc (Philips-Seon 1977)

Hans- Martin Linde / Linde Ensemble (EMI Reflexe 1982)

Trevor Pinnock / The English concert (Archiv 1982)

Roy Goodman / The Brandenburg Consort (Hyperion 1992)

Philip Pickett / New London Consort (L'Oiseau Lyre 1993)

Sigiswald Kuijken / La Perite Bande (first recording DHM 1994)

Siegbert Rampe / La Stravaganza, Hamburg (Virgin 1993-95)

Gottfried von der Goltz / Freiburger Barokensemble (first recording DVD Euroarts 1999)

Andrés Gabetta / Swiss Baroque Soloists (Naxos 2006)

Masaaki Suzuki / Bach Collegium, Japan (second recording BIS 2009)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 05:07:19 AM
If anyone wants my MI top eleven, I shall provide a list.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 05:20:24 AM
They are not bad performances. The orchestral and solo instrumental playing is very fine and the sound quality is also good. The speeds are also quick. Everything seems right individually but the overall result does nor sparkle. I suppose that this ties in with Jo498's comment but I do like to hear them once in a while as an example of that era.

In general, I think the music is performed in a strange ritual Masonic way here and not quite typical of the era but more typical of Karl Richter. I also prefer the video to the LPs / CDs, not the least because the violin soloist here is Otto Büchner and not Hansheinz Schneeberger.

https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Johann-Sebastian-Brandenburgische-Konzerte/dp/B000C1XGCG/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=bach+richter&qid=1594736301&s=dvd&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: aligreto on July 14, 2020, 05:41:50 AM
If anyone wants my MI top eleven, I shall provide a list.

Go for it....
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on July 14, 2020, 06:36:25 AM
Harnoncourt 1963 was my first encounter with the music. And my first encounter with historical instruments For some reason my parents had these LPs in a collection that was otherwise dominated by rather popular anthologies (like great opera choruses, some opera highlights, popular ouvertures etc.). I found the sound utterly strange. A year or two later in eleventh grade I gave a school presentation on the Concerti together with a friend. I think the school had the Richter recording, that friend had the then (ca. 1988 or early 1989) fairly recent Musica Antiqua, all still on LP. Harnoncourt was the slowest of all of them, MAK was shockingly fast and aggressive. I still have the DAS ALTE WERK LP-Box, but I haven't heard it in years as I am not set up anymore for playing LPs. As far as I recall the first two concerti are too flawed in the brass/wind department to be acceptable for more than a curiosity. The string concerti might still hold up well enough with 4 and 5 somewhere in between (I think the 4th is also very slow compared to most other recordings).
I don't know any others from premonts list. On CD I have Harnoncourt 1980s, MAK, Akademie f. Alte Musik and Giardino Armonico, on modern instruments Busch, Britten, Leppard and a couple of single concerti as fillers or on historical anthologies (like Edwin Fischer).
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 07:10:23 AM
Harnoncourt 1963 was my first encounter with the music.  As far as I recall the first two concerti are too flawed in the brass/wind department to be acceptable for more than a curiosity. The string concerti might still hold up well enough with 4 and 5 somewhere in between (I think the 4th is also very slow compared to most other recordings).

They are not particularly slow compared to most other recordings from the 1960es with one exception. Walter Holy wasn't able to play the natural trumpet in the second concerto (with three finger holes) other than relatively slowly. This was a newly constructed instrument, so he hadn't had that long time for practicing. The corni da caccia are also just acceptable and no match for the standard of to day. The woodwinds are very good. Fallible brass playing was however one of the conditions of that time, and  I do not think this detracts seriously from the all-round musical experience of the recordings, if it isn't worse than here.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 10:49:34 AM
And here my modern instruments top 11:

Karl Münchinger / Stuttgarter Kammerorkester (second recording Decca 1958)

Rudolf Baumgartner / Lucerne Festival Strings (first recording Archiv 1958)

Friedrich Tilegant / Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester Pforsheim (first recording Eurodisc 1959)

Kurt Redel
/ Pro Arte Orchestra, München (second recording Erato 1962)

Karl Ristenpart
/ Saarländisches Kammerorkester (second recording Discophiles Francais 1964)

Raymond Leppard / English Chamber orchestra (Philips 1974)

Gerhard Bosse / Gewandhaus Bach orkester (Eterna 1983)

Max Pommer / Neues Bach-Collegium Musicum, Leipzig (Capriccio 1984)

Robert Haydon Clark / Consort of London (Collins 1990)

Helmut Müller Brühl / Kölner Kammerorkester (Naxos 1999)

Jan Willem de Vriend / Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam (Challenge Classics 2007)

As with the PI list the competition is strong, and my choices reflect of course only my own taste.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 14, 2020, 10:56:55 AM
I find him annoying anyway so perhaps I will give that one a miss  ;D

+ 1
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: MusicTurner on July 14, 2020, 11:19:00 AM
And here my modern instruments top 11:

Karl Münchinger / Stuttgarter Kammerorkester (second recording Decca 1958)

Rudolf Baumgartner / Lucerne Festival Strings (first recording Archiv 1958)

Friedrich Tilegant / Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester Pforsheim (first recording Eurodisc 1959)

Kurt Redel
/ Pro Arte Orchestra, München (second recording Erato 1962)

Karl Ristenpart
/ Saarländisches Kammerorkester (second recording Discophiles Francais 1964)

Raymond Leppard / English Chamber orchestra (Philips 1974)

Gerhard Bosse / Gewandhaus Bach orkester (Eterna 1983)

Max Pommer / Neues Bach-Collegium Musicum, Leipzig (Capriccio 1984)

Robert Haydon Clark / Consort of London (Collins 1990)

Helmut Müller Brühl / Kölner Kammerorkester (Naxos 1999)

Jan Willem de Vriend / Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam (Challenge Classics 2007)

As with the PI list the competition is strong, and my choices reflect of course only my own taste.

Nice list. I keep returning just to Pommer & likewise have Haydon Clark among the favourites.

Am not a big collector of these works, but also own Casals, Ristenpart, Münchinger, Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, Karajan, Richter and Neel.
I might go for one recent HIP recording some time - maybe Cafe Zimmermann. But their very fast tempi, seen in most HIP, aren't immediately to my taste.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 14, 2020, 11:27:41 AM
The Brandenburg sets I've listened to lately:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Ton Koopman
The Scottish Ensemble, Jno. Rees
Ensemble Caprice
English Chamber Orchestra, Johannes Somary
AAM, Hogwood
Giardino Armonico

... but don't ask me to pick a favorite.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 11:29:48 AM
Am not a big collector of these works, but also own Casals, Ristenpart, Münchinger, Leonhardt, Harnoncourt, Karajan, Richter and Neel.

Boyd Neel's set was one of the first I purchased (on Concert Hall) and I may be a bit biased as to this.

Quote from: MusicTurner
I might go for one recent HIP recording some time - maybe Cafe Zimmermann. But their very fast tempi, seen in most HIP, aren't immediately to my taste.

I am not that partial to those versions where speed seems to be the important point (Cafe Zimmermann, Göbel, Antonini) even if it must be admitted that the playing usually is super brilliant.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: MusicTurner on July 14, 2020, 11:31:37 AM
Boyd Neel's set was one of the first I purchased (on Concert Hall) and I may be a bit biased as to this.

I am not that partial to those versions where speed seems to be the important point (Cafe Zimmermann, Göbel, Antonini) even if it must be admitted that the playing usually is super brilliant.

I agree, I haven't kept a Göbel recording, I think. Neel doesn't really compare with more recent recordings, IMHO. But mine are LPs, a CD transfer might show something more.

What I heard of Scherchen's wasn't that exciting, contrary to expectations.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 12:14:53 PM
I agree, I haven't kept a Göbel recording, I think. Neel doesn't really compare with more recent recordings, IMHO. But mine are LPs, a CD transfer might show something more.

My copy of Neel's recording was also an LP set, which I have digitized myself. But Forgotten records released it on CD (also digitized LPs) some years ago. I agree, that it isn't that competitive, so it isn't on my top 11 list. But still I love it.

Quote from: MusicTurner
What I heard of Scherchen's wasn't that exciting, contrary to expectations.

The problem with both Scherchen recordings is not the conductor, but soloists which aren't top musicians.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on July 14, 2020, 12:23:18 PM
The Brandenburg sets I've listened to lately:

Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, Ton Koopman
The Scottish Ensemble, Jno. Rees
Ensemble Caprice
English Chamber Orchestra, Johannes Somary
AAM, Hogwood
Giardino Armonico

... but don't ask me to pick a favorite.

A fine list, where I know them all very well.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Daverz on July 14, 2020, 01:12:13 PM
Listening to the Leonhardt BC#2 now.  <Looks around furtively for fear of the ghost of William F. Buckley, Jr.>
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 12, 2021, 12:15:39 AM
Cafe Zimmermann has been my favorite for a while.
I’m listening to this today and liking it more than Kuijken, Suzuki or Alessandrini. Maybe it’s as good as Zimmermann for me. I can’t say why yet. I think it may be a bad point of mine that I’m partial towards certain recordings soundscapes. But it’s also texture. I’m not quite sure about the finer points of larger ensemble music. I guess this one is on the brisk side:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wX6szVT6L.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 04:56:23 AM
A harpsichord that cuts through the music in an interesting way. It's a slightly different tonal environment that's created. I don't know if it's the instrument, the recording technique, or a little of both.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/713ij3VDGNL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 05:04:05 AM
Takashi Watanabe organ
Ensemble Cordia
(https://www.brilliantclassics.com/covers/5028421962184.jpg)

Maybe something to check out.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 22, 2021, 06:03:26 AM
Takashi Watanabe organ
Ensemble Cordia
(https://www.brilliantclassics.com/covers/5028421962184.jpg)

Maybe something to check out.

Both (this and the Corti) are already on my wish-list.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 22, 2021, 04:31:13 PM
Both (this and the Corti) are already on my wish-list.
I found that I didn’t like the way this was recorded. It’s just too distant-sounding.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 23, 2021, 05:16:25 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61j7q0A7YhL._SL1200_.jpg)
I’m interested in 1044: triple concerto. It seems like a more complex work and different than the others, not merely for the somewhat unique instrumentation.

This still attracts me as it has Schornsheim on a fortepiano:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ImC6I%2BUOL._SY445_SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: Jo498 on January 24, 2021, 12:27:37 AM
The instruments in BWV 1044 are basically the same as in Brandenburg #5.
But it is  a unique work as it was contructed from a trio sonata movement (the middle one) and a prelude and fugue. I am too lazy to look up the BWV numbers of the sources.
I used to find it a bit boring but while not a favorite I find it now a fascinating piece.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: (: premont :) on January 24, 2021, 04:20:33 AM

This still attracts me as it has Schornsheim on a fortepiano:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ImC6I%2BUOL._SY445_SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

She only plays a Müthel concerto on that CD. The pianoforte in BWV 1044 is played by Zvi Meniker and the harpsichord in BWV 1052 by Rafael Alpermann. However a nice listenable CD.
Title: Re: Bach's Orchestral Music (Brandenburgs, Suites & Concertos)
Post by: milk on January 24, 2021, 06:44:15 AM
She only plays a Müthel concerto on that CD. The pianoforte in BWV 1044 is played by Zvi Meniker and the harpsichord in BWV 1052 by Rafael Alpermann. However a nice listenable CD.
Gosh, I must have known that at some point. But I've not heard much of Meniker. It's an interesting version.