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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 05:18:24 PM

Title: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 05:18:24 PM
I was tempted to title this thread "Koechlin-a French Havergal Brian?" but restrained myself in time ;D

The similarities between Koechlin and Brian include the great ages which both achieved and the large number of works-most of them unknown to the general musical public-both men composed. There is a mystery about Koechlin which renders him a cult figure but without, yet, much of a cult ;D

The Wikipedia article gives an excellent account of his life and work-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Koechlin

Koechlin was a highly eclectic composer-polystylistic as the article correctly says. He was also, in many ways, ahead of his time. Although very few of his compositions have been recorded those I have heard are a heady and intoxicating blend of Scriabin, Bantock, Delius, Schoenberg, Wagner etc etc. There is a powerful mystical, pantheistic element in those orchestral works which are usually scored for an enormous orchestra(Scriabin meets HB again!). Atonality blends in with passages which sound like Alan Hovhaness!
The mixture is almost impossible to describe adequately. Suffice to say that although Koechlin's music was very little heard he was an enormously respected figure in French musical circles!

The Swiss oboist, composer and conductor Heinz Holliger clearly believes in Koechlin and has recorded at least 3 cds of the music for Hanssler. These are reviewed here-

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/dec04/Koechlin_Etoilee.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/May03/koechlin_ludwig.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2006/Apr06/Koechlin_heures_93125.htm

There is also an excellent RCA recording of 'The Jungle Book' conducted by David Zinman.

I find Koechlin a fascinating figure but we need to hear much, much more of his music to allow a proper evaluation of a composer who could very well be a seriously neglected major French composer.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 05:26:31 PM
I like Koechlin's music very much. However, I see little in common in the music of the two composers. One (Brian)'s music may be a tough nut to crack, the other is just a nut (sometimes) whose music is wonderful but not tough by any means, at least not to my ear. Everything I have of Koechlin I have liked. His music is in fact very easy to like which makes his neglect a bit strange. Maybe the fact that it does not leave you pondering nor humming the tunes means he pleases neither end of the spectrum.

I find his songs and chamber works especially pleasing.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 05:33:08 PM
No, no....forgive me! I did not mean to imply that there were similarities between the two men's music! Heavens no!

The point-obviously expressed with singular lack of precision :(- related to the time when I became aware of both composers as figures of some mystery, very old men who had both composed huge, complex pieces which only a very few people had ever heard but which they praised highly.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on November 10, 2008, 11:44:17 PM
I've found strong similarities to some of Messiaen in some of (he's a confusingly wideranging composer) Koechlins works, the use of block chords eg and what to me seems like a similar grasp of tonality. That's the case in some of the Jungle book works for example, but I need to know more of him (i have about 6-8 CDs of his music). From that little sampling (including the Hanssler double and Zinmans double of the Jungle Book on RCA)  he seems like a very fine composer in his best moment with a wonderful sense of experiment and discovery, but also a wildly variable one both in quality and in style. Discovering  more of his works is definitely an issue of some priority to me, so further recommendations are appreciated.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 11:49:49 PM
I was tempted to title this thread "Koechlin-a French Havergal Brian?" but restrained myself in time ;D

Admirable restraint!

Quote
The similarities between Koechlin and Brian include the great ages which both achieved and the large number of works-most of them unknown to the general musical public-both men composed. There is a mystery about Koechlin which renders him a cult figure but without, yet, much of a cult.

Nicely put.

Quote
Koechlin was a highly eclectic composer-polystylistic as the article correctly says. He was also, in many ways, ahead of his time. Although very few of his compositions have been recorded those I have heard are a heady and intoxicating blend of Scriabin, Bantock, Delius, Schoenberg, Wagner etc etc. There is a powerful mystical, pantheistic element in those orchestral works which are usually scored for an enormous orchestra(Scriabin meets HB again!). Atonality blends in with passages which sound like Alan Hovhaness!
The mixture is almost impossible to describe adequately. Suffice to say that although Koechlin's music was very little heard he was an enormously respected figure in French musical circles!

Something tells me I'm going to like Koechlin...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on November 11, 2008, 01:29:37 AM
(http://www.koechlin.net/ancetres/images/heures_persannes.jpg)

I discovered Charles Koechlin through Antal Dorati's (still impressive) recording of "Les Bandar -Log" (the "ape"-scherzo from Jungle Book. ) Somewhere in the eighties David Zinman performed Jungle Book, complete, in Rotterdam - I'm fascinated by this wonderful composer since then.
The sheer lenght and scope of some of his compositions is intimidating. Bruckner...Mahler ...??
One needs patience and concentration. The more ambitious works ( Quintet op 80, Le docteur Fabricius, Les heures Persanes,Le buisson ardent, the symphonies..) last all between 45 and 65 mins. Slow movements are often ( Messiaen-like) meditations , fast ones are replete with unexpected, harrowing accents.
I quote from the linernotes of an OOP Cybelia CD ( pianoquintet, Quintette Primavera for flute, harp,violin, alto & cello) :
...the quintet draws inspiration from an idea close to the composer's heart : that of rebirth after adversity, of triumph of life and joy over pain. This theme would be dealt with later in, notably, a number of vast symphonic compositions ( second symphony, Le docteur Fabricius, Le buisson ardent..). its permanence in Koechlin's inspiration bears witness to a profoundly romantic way of thinking  even if it uses "modern" means of expression. Furthermore, the optimism of the luminous and joyful endings should not make one overlook the importance attributed by the composer to the more sombre sections....For thios optimist not is all light: disquiet and doubt have a far from neglegible place in his inspiration. The background ( of the quintet) is Nature. With Koechlin the theme of Nature is omnipresent and has an essentialy dynamic role. For him Nature is not a source of nostalgia. At its contact, Man finds serenity and feels renewal of strenght....
- "Les heures Persan,es" op. 65 ( after Pierre Loti "Vers Ispahan") 16 pieces ( piano version and orchestral version) . If music can be a drug, than this is very pure and intoxicating material.
- the early Ballade for piano and orchestra ( exists also in a pianosolo version) : almost German in its somber, mysterious character
-Offrande musicale sur le nom de Bach  op. 187 ( difficult to find CD Edition Michael Frauenlob Bauer 019) Frankfurt RSO/ Juan Pablo Izquierdo
Scored for large orchestra with solo organ, piano and ondes Martenot ( but the sections are scored very differently - from organ or pianosolo, to stringquintet or flute and two violins....) Only the Finale ( Sonore, Triomphal) is for full orchestra .

I have a few works of chamber music : l'Album de Lilian ( with soprano, flutes, piano or harpsichord and ondes Martenot) op 139 and 149
Stèle funéraire for 3 flutes, Monodies for ondes Martnot
A short ( 2 mins) but jubilant Chant de la Résurrection for trumpets and organ

Holliger's work for Hänssler /SWR is priceless: polished and well rehearsed performances of very difficult music. Let's hope he will do the symphonies aswell - possibly some of the very early Biblical scenes /cantatas ....

I'll come back later to this composer! Now back to work...

P.


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 11, 2008, 01:55:37 AM
Fascinating, Peter. Koechlin looks like a visionary in the Rued Langgaard mould to me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on November 11, 2008, 02:03:58 AM
Fascinating, Peter. Koechlin looks like a visionary in the Rued Langgaard mould to me.

If not visionary, at least eccentric. (Koechlin and Langgaard are two of the most interesting faces that should be in any Composer Portraits Collection)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 11, 2008, 02:26:56 AM
If not visionary, at least eccentric. (Koechlin and Langgaard are two of the most interesting faces that should be in any Composer Portraits Collection)

My favourite:

(http://www.schirmer.com/images/news/gs-langgaard-may08.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on November 11, 2008, 03:31:41 AM
That's indeed a great photo Johan. But I think that Koechlin is less eccentric than Langgaard.
He was more of a recluse, declining official honors. And, afaik, something of an ecologist avant la lettre....( there's a funny anecdote of Koechlin visiting the Milhaud's . Koechlin had bought beehives ( with the bees) and was traveling home by train. He left the beehives at the local trainstation ( Aix?) and stayed one night at Milhaud's place ( sleeping outside, in the open air !) . During breakfast he got a phonecall: the bees had escaped and the railway employees were in a panic...)

Anyway, a solitary searcher, an independent with a very personal voice ,totaly his own.

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 11, 2008, 03:35:47 AM
That's indeed a great photo Johan. But I think that Koechlin is less eccentric than Langgaard.
He was more of a recluse, declining official honors. And, afaik, something of an ecologist avant la lettre....( there's a funny anecdote of Koechlin visiting the Milhaud's . Koechlin had bought beehives ( with the bees) and was traveling home by train. He left the beehives at the local trainstation ( Aix?) and stayed one night at Milhaud's place ( sleeping outside, in the open air !) . During breakfast he got a phonecall: the bees had escaped and the railway employees were in a panic...)

Anyway, a solitary searcher, an independent with a very personal voice ,totaly his own.

Peter

And that's a great story, Peter!  ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Hector on November 11, 2008, 06:43:23 AM
I've found strong similarities to some of Messiaen in some of (he's a confusingly wideranging composer) Koechlins works, the use of block chords eg and what to me seems like a similar grasp of tonality. That's the case in some of the Jungle book works for example, but I need to know more of him (i have about 6-8 CDs of his music). From that little sampling (including the Hanssler double and Zinmans double of the Jungle Book on RCA)  he seems like a very fine composer in his best moment with a wonderful sense of experiment and discovery, but also a wildly variable one both in quality and in style. Discovering  more of his works is definitely an issue of some priority to me, so further recommendations are appreciated.

I find the same similarities as I do in elements of Tournemire's works. Both Messiaen and Tournemire were very religious but such a fault has not stopped me liking their music.

Having immersed myself in some of Koechlin's music over the past eighteen months or so I find little desire to revisit it.

Of course, that feeling may change but if it does I suspect it will not be for some time.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Dundonnell on November 11, 2008, 06:48:45 AM
I am delighted to see the interest in this fascinating composer :)

Thank you, Peter, for your informative and illuminating post which moved the thread on from my perhaps maladroit comparison with Havergal Brian :). (The comparison was not intended to be of musical idiom but entirely of a reputation which both men shared for having an unrealistic and impractical appreciation of what could or could not reasonably be expected of contemporary orchestras and audiences.)

Leaving that to one side, however ;D.....I cannot really add much to what Peter has, so admirably, described. Koechlin's sound world is not unique in so far as the elements which comprise his music are derived from a wide-range of influences but the mixing of these elements together is frequently astonishing and, I think, in advance of what many others were doing in his time.

"Les heures persanes" is indeed particularly "intoxicating". I do not have the Holliger(Hanssler) version but the older Segerstam(Marco Polo) disc. I cannot therefore make a comparison but I see that Rob Barnett in his review of the Holliger on Musicweb actually prefers the Segerstam.

If you do respond to Scriabin or-as erato points out- to early Messiaen  then you should find this music of real interest.

Regarding Koechlin the man-his interests outside of music appear to have been as diverse! Astronomy, Philosophy, Literature and....early Film. This led to 'The Seven Stars' Symphony' of 1933 in which each movement is dedicated to and inspired by a star of the screen(Douglas Fairbanks, Lilian Harvey, Greta Garbo, Clara Bow, Marlene Dietrich, Emil Jennings and Charlie Chaplin). I don't really think it is much more than a curiosity, to be honest, but an interesting one nevertheless :)

The complete Jungle Book however...that is another story!

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Kullervo on December 31, 2008, 06:41:53 PM
(http://inkpot.com/classical/covers/hannskoechlin.jpg)

I just purchased this disc, my introduction to Koechlin, based on Daverz's review in the Listening thread. I'll be sure to post my thoughts once I have it!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:14:29 AM
I just purchased this disc, my introduction to Koechlin, based on Daverz's review in the Listening thread. I'll be sure to post my thoughts once I have it!

I think I may have that one, somewhere at home . . . and it's time I listened, of course . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The Six on May 25, 2009, 06:46:18 PM
Koechlin is one of my top 3 French composers, and should be more well known.

He wrote a substantial amount of piano music, and Les Hueres Persanes particularly can be considered one of the landmark works for the instrument, despite its obscurity. 16 movements of amazing music, right up there with the great stuff any other piano composer wrote.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on June 11, 2009, 05:02:19 AM
I've just listened to the "Seven Stars" Symphony-- and I'll need to hear more of Koechlin.  In addition to the other strains mentioned-- I also picked up a strong Satie vibe-- I don't know if there are any formal elements in common, but it was the sort of personal, intimate idiosyncracies that made it feel like taking a long walk with a close friend.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
Still ringing the bells for Koechlin's SQs, 1-2 of which are available from the Ardeo Qrt. (at an astronomical $29 on amazon). I suspect they may be the greatest thing since sliced cheese.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2009, 09:55:14 AM
I think I may have that one, somewhere at home . . . and it's time I listened, of course . . . .

Koechlin will sort well with First-Listen Fridays . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on June 11, 2009, 12:53:22 PM
Still ringing the bells for Koechlin's SQs, 1-2 of which are available from the Ardeo Qrt. (at an astronomical $29 on amazon). I suspect they may be the greatest thing since sliced cheese.
Your suspicion i wrong, Actually they are pretty ordinary and slightly dull.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:11:35 PM
Your suspicion i wrong, Actually they are pretty ordinary and slightly dull.

See, the forum works! :)You got my back, i got your back!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 02:42:36 AM
Quote
Koechlin will sort well with First-Listen Fridays . . . .

And this is the day.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on July 21, 2009, 06:00:51 PM
The more I hear of this guy, the more I like.  I've just fallen for the "Jungle Books" Double CD and the Persian Hours.  He's got a very personal sound with some really creative orchestration.   And I haven't dipped into the piano music yet, but that is bound to happen.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on September 24, 2009, 12:12:00 PM
Seems like Koechlin needs another bump.  I've just gotten into the piano works--- Paysages et Marines and the Old Country House(in English)  have thrilled me more than any sets of solo piano music since Debussy's Preludes.  Very impressionistic, but willing to go a bit further.  (Imagine a dash of what Messiaen had with his preludes).  I've picked up the Persian Hours in the orchestral version-- it didn't really resonate with me, but I KNEW I had to hear the piano version, and I was right-- it's some amazing stuff, and frankly, I'm not sure if it was a good a choice for orchestration as some of his other tone poems.

The etudes for Piano and Saxophone didn't do the same for me.

I've read up a bit more on him-- fascinating character.  It seems that in his later works he needed to work out the rhythms first, and was more of polymeter fiend than Debussy was. +-
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DFO on September 24, 2009, 12:55:46 PM
Still ringing the bells for Koechlin's SQs, 1-2 of which are available from the Ardeo Qrt. (at an astronomical $29 on amazon). I suspect they may be the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

I've this CD. It's amazing how different are those pieces. The first
is romantic and rather oldfashioned. The second is dark, chromatic and impressionist. I like both very much.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2009, 01:27:56 PM
Well, felt that I had posted in this thread on Koechlin - own about a half dozen discs of his music and enjoy; my most recent purchase is shown in the quote below, which I left in the Listening Thread a few days ago - no responses, so thought that I would simply repeat my comments - this is just a wonderful disc - nothing else to say -  :D

Quote
Koechlin, Charles (1867-1950) - Le Saxophone Lumineux w/ Federico Mondelci on saxophone (mostly alto but also tenor) & Kathryn Stott on piano - these works are Op. 180 & 188 of Koechlin's oeuvre written when he was in his mid-70s and in 1942-43 during the German occupation of Paris in WWII!  :o

Despite the times, this is absolutely a wonderfully relaxing performance (completely contrary to what would be expected!) - we listened to this disc during dinner and were completly enthralled - if you like the combination of piano w/ a 'wind' instrument, then I would strongly encourage a listen to some 'audio snippets' - a highly recommended purchase!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/657791903_HfeUJ-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950) SQs
Post by: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:20:54 AM
One of the great guys here sent me a copy of the SQs 1-2 by the Ardeo. This cd is going for a ridiculous amount on Amazon, so I was overjoyed when I saw what he had sent me.

From the moment I saw that they were available, I had been eagerly awaiting, though I must say the price was way out of my league. Then, I believe "erato" said earlier in this thread that they were just plain boring, and that, hey, Koechlin was a very uneven composer, so what might one expect?

So, it was with baited breathe that I began listening. The SQ No.1 (out of three, btw: the third one was written a couple of years after the first two) is @19mins and reminds me a smidge of the Saint-Saens SQs, which I also happened to receive on the same day. It's fairly straighforward and inoffensive, like the Saint-Saens, but also it didn't leave me with all that much. I can't remember any particularities (like the Saint-Saens :P), and, so,...eh... what am I going to say? It's ok, but nothing special. He does have a certain "atmosphere" that is very "impressionistic", like from the English Pastoral School, and this feeling spills over into

SQ No.2, which is a 42min monster in comparison. The mood is generally the same, but much more "rarified", as they like to say, very much starting to get into Faure territory, but seemingly much more adventurous.

Honestly, No.2 is the most "impressionistic" work I think I've ever heard (in that hazy, languid way). It starts with a rocking chorale-like slow figure that sets the stage for everything else. There is MUCH stopping to smell the roses here! The first mvmt. is 11mins, and the fourth is 17!!! As I was listening, I felt that this was religious gardening music. It certainly creates its own little world of hazy half-hues... I definitely consider this "daytime" music, though of a very rarified atmosphere.

I'm going to say what it reminds me of, but take this "spiritually". It sounds to me like Philip Glass, WITHOUT the minimalism. Anyone who like Glass' SQ album by the Kronos knows how SQ No.5 sounds so very French, and that is close to what I'm getting here with the Koechlin: somehow this music is verrry modern sounding, but in the "neo-tonal/romantic" way of the 1980s. Yes, this music sounds to me to have been written in the 1980s! I also here traces of that "tropical" Henry Cowell, or Lou Harrison sound (McPhee). There are a few places in here where I hear, exactly, the melody from Carters 1946 Elegy, not to mention fleeting reminders of Barber's Adagio. Yes, the tropical sound is there, but let me rather call it a "muggy mediterrainianness"! It's definitely hot and thick in this garden: sometimes the music oozes out like molasses.

The first time I listened to these pieces I wasn't bowled over as much as I was just taken into this muggy garden. The second SQ, being so long, really draws you into its world. This is not exactly what I'd been expecting from Koechlin's "modal" reputation (there is LOTS of modal stuff here, just not quite as fifths/fourths dominated, as, say, Hindemith), but when you listen closely, you begin to hear it. Ultimately, this really sounds like "French Impressionism", but different than, say



Milhaud, who wrote his first two SQs around the same time (1916). At first, I thought i was clearly going to give the nod to Milhaud. Milhaud's first two are much different than his later output: these are long, Impressionistic, yet lively works (more lively than the Koechlin here). Milhaud's themes are more clear cut, and there is no gratuitous loitering in the Milhaud: they sound like normal French classical music of the Debussy/Chausson SQ mold. The Koechlin is so much more stagnant, like a Petri dish slowly spawing the green, like a garden in the shade on a quiet day. There are also slight reminders of Szymanowski in the lush harmonies that Koechlin favors, and this is what gives Koechlin his special sound.

Once again, I don't know if it's the super lush recording and playing, but the SQ No.2 just doesn't sound like it could have been written in the middle of WWI. It really wasn't until the 1980s that people started to write likethis again (though, like I said, the Pacific Rim composers like Harrison, Cowell, McPhee, etc., paved the way), which gives this SQ a very strange, "sore thumb" kind of appeal that's very elusive. One could say that this SQ has a lot in favor with Faure's later 1924 SQ, though Koechlin is much more in the modal camp. The atmosphere is similar.
I'm serious when I say that I would just about almost put this cd in the 1980s section of the library.

I can only imagine, with such a vast output, that if much of Koechlin sounds like this, you may have found your perfect wallpaper! I'm wondering if his Quintets for flute, harp, and SQ (the typical Frech invention) take this feeling to its logical conclusion?

I really needed to hear these pieces to fill out my understanding of the young French generation at the time. These two pieces offer interesting foil to the Milhaud SQs (1-2), though, I resist calling No.2 a masterpiece.

And if anyone has seen how loose I am with the word masterpiece, then you know I must be right, haha! ;D No, these are highly interesting, thought provoking, lazy and aimlessly beautiful pieces to accompany a French day in the garden, or rowing through some water lilies.

There!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on October 03, 2009, 08:59:23 AM
I will listen again, but without a french garden with waterlilies anywhere in sight, I don't hold my hopes high.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2009, 12:07:51 PM
I greatly admire the poetically atmospheric 'Vers la Voute etoilee' which I have snapped up from a recommendation here - lovely work.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: CD on October 04, 2009, 01:32:58 PM
I greatly admire the poetically atmospheric 'Vers la Voute etoilee' which I have snapped up from a recommendation here - lovely work.

That wasn't my doing was it? :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: CD on October 04, 2009, 01:52:23 PM
Thanks for that description, snyprrr.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2009, 01:57:41 PM
That wasn't my doing was it? :D

Not sure - but if so thank you.  I have played the luminous 'Vers la Voute etoilee' about eight times today! Next stop 'The Burning Bush'.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on October 04, 2009, 01:59:12 PM
Recently, Holliger has added "Offrande musicale " to his recordings (Stutgart). It's coupled with "Les Bandar Log"



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K5YIMyh9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Let's hope he continues with the symphonies.

P.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on October 05, 2009, 07:44:54 AM
I greatly admire the poetically atmospheric 'Vers la Voute etoilee' which I have snapped up from a recommendation here - lovely work.

I'd hurry to pick up the Jungle Book Set.  Spring in the Forest is really fine-- some of the most brilliant orchestral coloring.  Burning Bush is solid.  Dr. Fabricus is a bit overwhelming, but deep stuff.  I thought the Persian hours worked better on solo keyboard.  (His solo keyboard works can be AWESOME. )  The Seven Stars Symphony is  winner.

Corey cannot recommend this guy enough.  I want to know why I didn't know about him 20 years ago....
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: CD on October 05, 2009, 08:50:37 AM
Recently, Holliger has added "Offrande musicale " to his recordings (Stutgart). It's coupled with "Les Bandar Log"



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K5YIMyh9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Let's hope he continues with the symphonies.

P.

Thanks, I somehow missed that one. I am drooling for the symphonies as well, especially No. 2 which I think you've describe elsewhere before. Anything with multiple ondes Martenots is an instant "want" for me. ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on October 20, 2009, 04:16:19 AM
I'd hurry to pick up the Jungle Book Set.  Spring in the Forest is really fine-- some of the most brilliant orchestral coloring.  Burning Bush is solid.  Dr. Fabricus is a bit overwhelming, but deep stuff.  I thought the Persian hours worked better on solo keyboard.  (His solo keyboard works can be AWESOME. )  The Seven Stars Symphony is  winner.

Corey cannot recommend this guy enough.  I want to know why I didn't know about him 20 years ago....

I like this composer more and more. Having played Vers la Voute etoilee almost continuously since buying it (thanks to recommendations here) I have now moved on to the other piece on the CD Le Docteur Fabricius - also wonderful! Haunting, poetic atmospheric music with impressive use of the Ondes Martenot. I thought that I had the Jungle Book, but I don't so have just ordered that. I hope that The Burning Bush will arrive soon. Great discovery - one of the nice things about GMG Forum. My family is starving but I have lots of great CDs  ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 12:34:56 AM
I'd hurry to pick up the Jungle Book Set.  Spring in the Forest is really fine-- some of the most brilliant orchestral coloring.  Burning Bush is solid.  Dr. Fabricus is a bit overwhelming, but deep stuff.  I thought the Persian hours worked better on solo keyboard.  (His solo keyboard works can be AWESOME. )  The Seven Stars Symphony is  winner.

Corey cannot recommend this guy enough.  I want to know why I didn't know about him 20 years ago....

I found the Jungle Book, second hand on Amazon (RCA, Zinman) but have not so far gone beyond the first track on the CD 'Seal Lullaby' from 'Three Poems' which I keep playing over and over again - a beautiful work like Cantaloube's 'Songs of the Auvergne'. Koechlin has been a great discovery for me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on October 26, 2009, 12:32:03 PM
I have not tracked this book down yet, but it seems to be an insanely comprehensive book on Koechlin.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vkwm4NnRuA4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Something I REALLY like about him was the fact that when he sketched out his later tone poems, he felt the need to sketch out the rhythmic scheme before anything else.  A LOT of shifting time measures, but still a much more French feel than you would get from a Bartok or Stravinsky.,

There is a great two disc set of works he did for voices/chorus and orchestra that I will listen to more when I get over the obsession for some of his other orchestral works and his solo piano stuff.  It's amazing how much of his works are still NOT recorded!

Just the kind of thing for us obsessive-compulsives to lose sleep over.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: listener on October 26, 2009, 06:07:54 PM
Music for flute on Hyperion CDA 66 414
14 pieces op.157; Sonata op 52; Morceau de lecture op.218; 4 pieces from op.149; L'Album de Lilian I op.139 hor flute and piano
Sonata for 2 flutes op. 75
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 12:16:02 AM
Music for flute on Hyperion CDA 66 414
14 pieces op.157; Sonata op 52; Morceau de lecture op.218; 4 pieces from op.149; L'Album de Lilian I op.139 hor flute and piano
Sonata for 2 flutes op. 75


Ordered this the other day - it's now on the budget hyperion label (Dryad).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: listener on October 31, 2009, 12:54:06 PM
I just posted the cover on the...."listening to now" page so just the details
of audite 97 417
op. 194 nos. 1&2  Sonatines for oboe d'amore with flute, clarinet, harp and string sextet
They are much lighter than The Jungle Book, might be mistaken for something by Ibert, perhaps.
op. 58 Oboe & piano sonata
op.216 no.11   Monodie for English horn
Lajos Lencsés on oboe(s) with members of the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orch.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: maxsnafu on January 14, 2010, 08:09:21 AM
Recently, Holliger has added "Offrande musicale " to his recordings (Stutgart). It's coupled with "Les Bandar Log"



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K5YIMyh9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Let's hope he continues with the symphonies.

P.
Koechlin's Offrande Musicale is an intellectual and orchestral tour de force. I would encourage any Koechlin beginner to start with this work. It's brilliant.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Brewski on January 14, 2010, 08:18:08 AM
Hi maxsnafu, and thanks for your Koechlin comments.  If you like, feel free to post something about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board, e.g., where you're from, what kinds of music you listen to, etc.

Anyway, welcome to GMG.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jerome on August 28, 2010, 02:47:52 PM
The viola sonata is a great work, my favourite one by Koechlin. It's dark and soft, quite lyrical (in a flowing sensation of secrecy). At first you may think you're hearing something gray or shapeless... but there are wonderful lines hidden inside, colourful harmonies and, like always in Koechlin's chamber music, a very personal treatment of the piano part, something quite humble in it that increases the idea of a musical conversation. To me, this is more than beautiful, this is wise !
Here is the record :
(http://img7.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_491396koech_alto.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=491396koech_alto.jpg)


ps : pardon my english  ::)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 05:02:31 PM
Thought I would revise this thread...

Seeing as many have contributed to this thread already (and many years ago), I would like to see where Koechlin stands with all of you today? Does his music still interest you? Have you discovered any more works that you're particularly impressed with?

Got any recommendations?

I only have Zinman's and Segerstam's recordings, but I have ordered many of the recordings offered by Hanssler with Holliger conducting.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 05:30:56 PM
One last question: why do you think Koechlin's music is so neglected nowadays?

I'm not sure how I ran across Koechlin's name, but doing some research, quite possibly on The Six, I ran across his name. He was, as many may know, one of Poulenc's teachers.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 05:54:31 PM
What in the world is wrong with you people? ??? This composer is so shamefully neglected that he can't even scrape up four pages.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
Page count doesn't mean anything.  Just look up the Newman thread "Mozart is a fraud", large page count but absolutely worthless.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
Page count doesn't mean anything.  Just look up the Newman thread "Mozart is a fraud", large page count but absolutely worthless.

I'm joking around, haydnfan. Anyway, while you're here, have you had any encounters with Koechlin's music?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
Sorry this thread has just introduced me to the composer! :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 06:03:13 PM
Sorry this thread has just introduced me to the composer! :D

Oh...well then that's great! :) What would you like to know about him? That is, if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 06:11:49 PM
What is his style like?  If you could compare his music to another composer (I might know) or as a combination of a few, I might get a sense of if I should explore his music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 06:22:22 PM
What is his style like?  If you could compare his music to another composer (I might know) or as a combination of a few, I might get a sense of if I should explore his music.

His music is very hard to categorize, but someone described Koechlin's music as the link between Debussy and Messiaen, but honestly this doesn't really tell anybody that much. I would say his music more than leans on the French Impressionistic side of things. He's a colorist who was interested in harmony, rhythm, and orchestration. There were many fine orchestrators in classical music and Koechlin has to be counted as one of them. In fact, he wrote a whole series of books on the subject. But I can honestly say that his music sounds like nobody else. He was very much his own man.

In terms of recommendations, I can whole-heartedly point to the David Zinman/BRSO recording of The Jungle Book on RCA. This was my introduction to this music. This recording is out-of-print strangely, but can purchased rather cheaply through an Amazon third-party seller.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 06:34:14 PM
I'm honestly surprised that Pierre Boulez never took up the Koechlin mantle. This composer seems to be right up his alley. I'd love to hear Boulez conduct the complete Jungle Book with the Cleveland Orchestra or the CSO. Here's for wishful dreaming...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 07:33:18 PM
The more I hear of this guy, the more I like.  I've just fallen for the "Jungle Book" Double CD and the Persian Hours.  He's got a very personal sound with some really creative orchestration.   And I haven't dipped into the piano music yet, but that is bound to happen.

I think The Jungle Book is one of the most underrated works of the 20th Century. It's really a masterpiece from start to finish. I'm listening to it for a third time in a row and it keeps getting better and better. The more I listen, the more a texture I didn't quite hear before comes out.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2011, 07:48:46 PM
MI is right to mention Debussy and Messiaen — I would also add the Schoenberg of Pelleas und Melisande to the list.

Start here:

(http://inkpot.com/classical/covers/hannskoechlin.jpg)

One short ravishing tone poem (probably one of my favorite pieces ever!) and another on a grander scale with several really astounding moments.

Yes, I bought this recording tonight along with four others.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on April 24, 2011, 10:00:16 PM
Seems to me that, though wildly uneven, Koechlin is one of the great, undiscovered masters, in his late works anticipating much of Messiaens style:
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 25, 2011, 01:02:51 AM
I'm not usually the biggest fan of solo piano with the exception of the impressionists, and Koechlin's piano works are definitely worth investigating.  I prefer the piano version of the Persian Hours to the orchestral one.

Besides that, I haven't found much of his orchestral work that I did not like.

Why was he neglected? Probably not trendy enough--- he really came into his own as the "impressionist" style was on the wane. 

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 03:23:27 AM
'What's wrong with you people?' Reminds me of that 'Seinfeld' episode with people eating their 'Snickers' bars with knives and forks. Nobody's THAT important. At the same time when you listen to Koechlin's best music you do tend to ask yourself that question. I have several Koechlin cd's in my collection. Only the other day I was playing his wonderful 'Seven Stars Symphony'. Not one of Koechlin's most profound works,but a good place to start as it's Koechlin at his most hauntingly lyrical. He certainly is a curious mixture. His music can be very tonal and approachable and then veer off into Messiaen like territory, all in the space of a couple of minutes (or seconds). The kind of music that could give your unwary granny a nasty suprise!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 06:22:49 AM
Thanks for the info everyone, he does sound up my alley... I'll probably check youtube first.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 07:24:14 AM
I'm not usually the biggest fan of solo piano with the exception of the impressionists, and Koechlin's piano works are definitely worth investigating.  I prefer the piano version of the Persian Hours to the orchestral one.

Besides that, I haven't found much of his orchestral work that I did not like.

Why was he neglected? Probably not trendy enough--- he really came into his own as the "impressionist" style was on the wane.

I'm not a big fan of solo piano either, but Debussy, Ravel, and Villa-Lobos are probably my favorites in this genre. I'll have check his piano works out.

Anyway, his orchestral scores are amazing. He really had such great command of the orchestra and his attention to harmonic shading is simply fantastic. The Jungle Book is a current favorite of mine, but I'm really anxious to hear some of his other orchestral works. Do you own the Zinman recording of The Jungle Book? I listened to these recordings three times in a row last night. When I first heard this large cycle, it didn't make much of an impression on me, but revisiting it again many months later I have to say that I'm very impressed. Wonderful music. Why The Jungle Book isn't performed or recorded more often is unknown to me, it's a 20th Century masterpiece.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 07:30:07 AM
It is a bit of a mystery to say the least!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 07:46:09 AM
It is a bit of a mystery to say the least!

Yes, it is! Do you think, perhaps, that the work itself difficult to perform? I mean I think if the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra can tackle this work, then an orchestra like the CSO, Royal Concertgebouw, etc. can breeze right through it --- technically speaking of course.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 07:47:26 AM
I have the Zinman recording. I prefer it,but judging by allot of the reviews I have read they all  have their merits. One problem with rare works by Koechlin is when they are released on some 'small label',like the Sisyphe recording of 'Les Chants de Nectaire',for example. One minute it's there,leave it too long and it isn't. You have to grab it while you can. Although it's still available as a download. One of my favourite Koechlin 'albums' is the Hyperion cd 'Music for flute'. Although music like this doesn't have the 'glamour' of the big orchestral works and tends to get ignored. Hanssler are doing commendable work in bringing the work of this fantastic composer to worlwide attention. There is so much that remains unrecorded.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 07:54:57 AM
Hanssler are doing commendable work in bringing the work of this fantastic composer to worlwide attention. There is so much that remains unrecorded.

I bought all the Hanssler recordings of the orchestral works (5 in all so far). I'm sure these are going to go out-of-print at some point, so, like you said, it's good to just grab them while you can. In regards to The Jungle Book, Hurwitz wrote a review on the other complete recording with Steuart Bedford conducting, but, as Hurwitz, points out there are some problems with this recording:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2220 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2220)

P.S. I am in no way, shape, or form a fan of Hurwitz, but he does point to some issues in this recording, which I found troubling and reason enough not to buy it.


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 08:26:11 AM
I wouldn't have thought Koechlin's work would be that far beyond the scope of todays orchestra's. In his own era,yes. I think part of the problem might be that his music is so eclectic in scope and style. His range is so wild. You never know what to expect. Sometimes it's like Ravel,Stravinsky,Messiaen and even a bit of Ives and Varese all got thrown into the mix. Of course,I'm exaggerating a bit,but I don't think I have ever heard such a vast range of styles and techniques in one piece of music,except maybe Brian's 'Gothic Symphony',and that's relatively conservative by comparison. Koechlin strikes me as a kind of musical magpie,endlessy experimenting. 'The Jungle Book' isn't a good example I know,because of the time span over which the various parts of it were written; but maybe it's too damn adventurous and wide ranging for it's own good.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 08:34:49 AM
I'm not exactly a fan of Hurwitz,but when he's not showing off too much he can have an interesting slant. As to this cd. I'm afraid I don't have this one. I must say I'm not that keen on 'live' recordings,particularly when it involves my 'Jungle Book' cycle being interrupted by applause,however brief. This is enough in itself to put me off.
I think the 'Marco Polo' and 'Zinman' recordings make a good contrast,although I think the Zinman has the 'edge' for me. Incidentally,what other recording do you possess (of the 'Jungle Book')?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 08:35:53 AM
I wouldn't have thought Koechlin's work would be that far beyond the scope of todays orchestra's. In his own era,yes. I think part of the problem might be that his music is so eclectic in scope and style. His range is so wild. You never know what to expect. Sometimes it's like Ravel,Stravinsky,Messiaen and even a bit of Ives and Varese all got thrown into the mix. Of course,I'm exaggerating a bit,but I don't think I have ever heard such a vast range of styles and techniques in one piece of music,except maybe Brian's 'Gothic Symphony',and that's relatively conservative by comparison. Koechlin strikes me as a kind of musical magpie,endlessy experimenting. 'The Jungle Book' isn't a good example I know,because of the time span over which the various parts of it were written; but maybe it's too damn adventurous and wide ranging for it's own good.

Yes, his music is a hodgepodge of a lot of different styles, but the most consistent style that Koechlin made his name with was within Impressionism. His music always gives one the sense of something, but unlike Ravel or Debussy, he is quite unpredictable and you never know exactly where a piece of music is going to go. This is apart of his allure I think. His music, like that of Szymanowski, has this searching quality. It never does truly settle down into something that's comfortable or familiar. The Jungle Book, in my opinion, is the best introduction to Koechlin's music because of it's, as you say, adventurous and wide-ranging nature. I think anyone interested in 20th Century French music owes it to themselves to at least hear this massive, kaleidoscopic work.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 08:38:39 AM
I'm not exactly a fan of Hurwitz,but when he's not showing off too much he can have an interesting slant. As to this cd. I'm afraid I don't have this one. I must say I'm not that keen on 'live' recordings,particularly when it involves my 'Jungle Book' cycle being interrupted by applause,however brief. This is enough in itself to put me off.
I think the 'Marco Polo' and 'Zinman' recordings make a good contrast,although I think the Zinman has the 'edge' for me. Incidentally,what other recording do you possess (of the 'Jungle Book')?

Yes, the live applause after the end of each piece is what turned me of to this specific recording. I only own Zinman's and Segerstam's, which the Segerstam as you probably know is incomplete. I think Zinman has the edge over Segerstam as well. I think the orchestra plays better and the audio quality has better clarity.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 09:11:25 AM
Indeed,a musical magpie Koechlin may have been,but the astonishing thing is that he made it all his musical experiments hang together. Although,sadly the eclectic nature of his music could put some less adventurous people off. When people sit down to listen to Debussy or Ravel in a concert hall they know what they're going to get. Imagine if Koechlin had written 'La Valse' or 'Bolero'! He's a bit like a musical version of the proverbial loose cannon. Yet if you take the time to listen to his music carefully,there's not a note out of place. Like the 'Gothic Symphony',which I referred to earlier.far from being the product of an undisciplined eccentric,there is the feeling of inevitability,of a man who knows exactly what he's doing & where he's going.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 09:22:08 AM
Indeed,a musical magpie Koechlin may have been,but the astonishing thing is that he made it all his musical experiments hang together. Although,sadly the eclectic nature of his music could put some less adventurous people off. When people sit down to listen to Debussy or Ravel in a concert hall they know what they're going to get. Imagine if Koechlin had written 'La Valse' or 'Bolero'! He's a bit like a musical version of the proverbial loose cannon. Yet if you take the time to listen to his music carefully,there's not a note out of place. Like the 'Gothic Symphony',which I referred to earlier.far from being the product of an undisciplined eccentric,there is the feeling of inevitability,of a man who knows exactly what he's doing & where he's going.

Exactly. Nothing is out-of-place in a Koechlin work. Everything makes perfect sense. I will say that there is a great subtlety to his music that those who aren't engaged listeners will clearly miss out on. There's just so much harmonic color and the way these shadings provide an undercurrent to the melodies is hypnotic.

Do you own the Hanssler series? If yes, I would curious to hear your impressions of it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 10:02:12 AM
Thanks for the info everyone, he does sound up my alley... I'll probably check youtube first.

haydnfan, here is a good bio on Koechlin whenever you have the time to read it:

Though his reputation as a composer has remained rather isolated in the decades since his death, Charles Koechlin enjoyed a prominent place in the French music scene in the first half of the twentieth century. Born in Paris on November 27, 1867, Koechlin began formal musical studies at the Paris Conservatory in 1890. His teachers there included Massenet and Fauré; the latter ultimately proved the greatest influence upon Koechlin's uncomplicated but colorful, mildly Impressionistic style. In 1918, Satie welcomed him into Les nouveaux jeunes, a short-lived collective of young French composers (including Roussel and Milhaud) that ultimately metamorphosed into Les Six.

In his lifetime, Koechlin was more widely known for his work as a theorist and teacher than for his own music. His writings include a multi-volume treatise on orchestration, one of the most extensive of its kind. Among his students were two members of Les Six, Germaine Tailleferre and Francis Poulenc, as well as film and television composer Lalo Schifrin. Koechlin's skill and reputation as an orchestrator were considerable. Saint-Saëns, Fauré, and Debussy entrusted to him the orchestration of a number of their own works, including most of Debussy's first ballet, Khamma (1911-1912). Koechlin traveled widely as a lecturer on music, including three tours in the United States. After a career that encompassed every aspect of French musical life, he died in Le Canadel, France, on New Year's Eve 1950.

While Koechlin's music is not as distinctive in its dramatic, structural, or formal profile as that of contemporaries like Debussy or Ravel, it nonetheless bears the stamp of an unusual personality. Many of his works are conspicuously sectional and almost improvisatory in the manner in which they unfold; his melodies in particular tend toward unrestricted, continual motion. Harmony and instrumental color are generally at the fore in Koechlin's music, which is perhaps most effective in the way it creates exquisitely shaded atmospheres. The composer wrote prolifically and for nearly every medium -- except, tellingly, for the operatic stage -- but carved out a quirky compositional niche that remains unique. Prefiguring multi-work "literary" cycles like American composer David Del Tredici's Alice in Wonderland series, Koechlin produced seven interrelated works based on Kipling's The Jungle Book. Perhaps unexpectedly, given his sober, messianic appearance, he also harbored a virtual mania for the cinema, which he translated into a number of works inspired by various silver-screen personalities. He celebrated the icons of Hollywood's Golden Age in works like Five Dances for Ginger [Rogers] (1937) and Epitaphe de Jean Harlow (1937), but his most stimulating muse was apparently English-German actress Lilian Harvey (1906-1968). Initially flattered by Koechlin's hommages, which included more than a hundred works, including two "Lilian Albums," Harvey eventually grew uneasy with his seeming obsession. She also enjoys a place of honor in what is likely the most famous (if not generally familiar) of Koechlin's works, the Seven Stars Symphony (1933). Neither astrological nor astronomical in inspiration, the symphony is instead a suite of tone poems, each an evocative portrait of a leading screen figure of the day: Douglas Fairbanks, Harvey, Greta Garbo, Clara Bow, Marlene Dietrich, Emil Jannings, and Charlie Chaplin.

Article taken from All Music Guide

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 11:08:15 AM
Thanks MI that was informative.  And I liked what I heard on youtube.  I think I'm going to have to buy a cd.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 12:45:44 PM
Thanks MI that was informative.  And I liked what I heard on youtube.  I think I'm going to have to buy a cd.

You're welcome. I recommend The Jungle Book with Zinman and the Berlin Radio Symphony on RCA. It's the complete cycle, so it's a 2-CD set. Excellent performances and audio quality. It's out-of-print, but you'll probably find a used copy pretty cheaply.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 25, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
When you are done with Koechlin, you might wish to check out Markevitch, who seems to be the missing link between Stravinsky and Messiaen.  I've been listing to a lot of him lately-- particularly the Hymnes for Orchestra, but also Rebus and Icarus.  He mixes the dry Stravinsky objective sounds and rhythms with some of the abandon of Messiaen.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 01:28:06 PM
When you are done with Koechlin, you might wish to check out Markevitch, who seems to be the missing link between Stravinsky and Messiaen.  I've been listing to a lot of him lately-- particularly the Hymnes for Orchestra, but also Rebus and Icarus.  He mixes the dry Stravinsky objective sounds and rhythms with some of the abandon of Messiaen.

Ah, but one is never truly "done" with composers we enjoy. ;) I will check Markevitch out though.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2011, 01:34:42 PM
I'd also recommend the 'Seven Stars Symphony' for Koechlin at his most approachable. Beautiful music. The title is however a little misleading. This isn't a Korngold style evocation of stardom we're talking about here,this is something far more subtle and introspective. Very good for late night listening,although  parts of it are a little dissonant & taxing on the 'shell like'. But they're few and far between.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 01:48:18 PM
I'd also recommend the 'Seven Stars Symphony' for Koechlin at his most approachable. Beautiful music. The title is however a little misleading. This isn't a Korngold style evocation of stardom we're talking about here,this is something far more subtle and introspective. Very good for late night listening,although  parts of it are a little dissonant & taxing on the 'shell like'. But they're few and far between.

Yes, I have been looking at this recording (w/ Judd and the BRSO), but it's out-of-print and very expensive.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2011, 04:04:27 PM
BOY!  This thread has almost doubled in size in a few days - I became interested in Koechlin a while back and have acquired a number of his recordings over the last few years; have not listened to many lately but enjoyed all - so, I'll just list below the ones I own currently and if anyone has an interest and wants more comments, let me give them a spin:

Clarinet Works w/ Altmann-Henschel on Hanssler
Flute Chamber Music w/ Ruhland-Tal on Hanssler
Le Docteur-Vers la Voute w/ Holliger-Stuttgart RSO on Hanssler
Les Bandar-Offrande w/ Holliger-Stuttgart RSO on Hanssler
Les Heures Persanes w/ Kathryn Stott on Chandos
Piano Quintet/SQ3 w/ Lavaud-Antigone SQ on Ar Re Se
Saxophone/Piano Works w/ Mondelchi-Stott on Chandos
String Quartets 1/2 w/ Ardeo Quartet on Ar Re Se
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 04:07:21 PM
BOY!  This thread has almost doubled in size in a few days - I became interested in Koechlin a while back and have acquired a number of his recordings over the last few years; have not listened to many lately but enjoyed all - so, I'll just list below the ones I own currently and if anyone has an interest and wants more comments, let me give them a spin:

Clarinet Works w/ Altmann-Henschel on Hanssler
Flute Chamber Music w/ Ruhland-Tal on Hanssler
Le Docteur-Vers la Voute w/ Holliger-Stuttgart RSO on Hanssler
Les Bandar-Offrande w/ Holliger-Stuttgart RSO on Hanssler
Les Heures Persanes w/ Kathryn Stott on Chandos
Piano Quintet/SQ3 w/ Lavaud-Antigone SQ on Ar Re Se
Saxophone/Piano Works w/ Mondelchi-Stott on Chandos
String Quartets 1/2 w/ Ardeo Quartet on Ar Re Se

You don't own The Jungle Book? ??? These are Koechlin's most well-known compositions. Anyway, tell me about the two orchestral recordings you have on Hanssler and what you think about them. I'm anxious to hear your impressions of the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2011, 04:13:22 PM
You don't own The Jungle Book? ??? These are Koechlin's most well-known compositions. Anyway, tell me about the two orchestral recordings you have on Hanssler and what you think about them. I'm anxious to hear your impressions of the music.

Now MI, how many people even own 8 discs of this guy's music?  ;) ;D

I've taken note of the Jungle Book and has been added to my 'wish list' (or for you my 'purchase list'!)

Give me a couple of days to listen to the recordings requested until I have some 'off' days - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 04:20:02 PM
Now MI, how many people even own 8 discs of this guy's music?  ;) ;D

I've taken note of the Jungle Book and has been added to my 'wish list' (or for you my 'purchase list'!)

Give me a couple of days to listen to the recordings requested until I have some 'off' days - Dave  :)

Will do, Dave. Actually, interestingly enough, when the Hanssler recordings I ordered arrive, I will own exactly 8 recordings of this nut job's music. :) I'm a sick, sick man. I plan on purchasing more.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 04:57:49 PM
I've ordered that Zinman Jungle Book recording. 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 05:00:31 PM
I've ordered that Zinman Jungle Book recording.

A wonderful recording. The best recording available (or was available) of these works. Zinman is an unlikely conductor of this type of repertoire, but he surprised me with just how well he knew the music and the BRSO perform admirably well. The sound quality, as typical with most 1990s RCA recordings I've encountered, is excellent.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 05:10:29 PM
I've only heard Zinman in Beethoven, Schumann and Gorecki.  He strikes me from those recordings as favoring transparent, lightly textured swift performances, let the music speak for itself kind of guy.  Fingers crossed same conducting style in Koechlin. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 05:18:55 PM
I've only heard Zinman in Beethoven, Schumann and Gorecki.  He strikes me from those recordings as favoring transparent, lightly textured swift performances, let the music speak for itself kind of guy.  Fingers crossed same conducting style in Koechlin. :)

Yes, the conducting in his Koechlin is very direct. The music definitely speaks for itself. Zinman is a good conductor, I hope I didn't create any doubt that you may have thought that I felt differently, but this is not the case at all. I was merely commenting that Zinman is not particularly known for conducting the music of the Impressionistic composers.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 07:04:05 PM
My goodness Koechlin was incredibly prolific during his life. Here is a link to all of his works:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Koechlin&ei=pUO2TdS_Ksyftge0wZRz&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAjgU&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCharles%2BKoechlin%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1005%26bih%3D544%26prmd%3Divnsbo (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Koechlin&ei=pUO2TdS_Ksyftge0wZRz&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAjgU&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCharles%2BKoechlin%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1005%26bih%3D544%26prmd%3Divnsbo)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2011, 08:50:22 PM
I just can't get enough of The Jungle Book. I'm listening to it again for the fifth or sixth time in the past three days. I'm one sick puppy. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 26, 2011, 04:42:20 AM
Now Playing:  Koechlin's Chant Funebre, which is gorgeous.

For his piano works: The most essential to me are the Andante Quasi Adagio, and the cycles the Old Country House (you will need to look up the name in French), Paysages et Marines, and the Persian Hours.  There are moments in them that I feel belong on the same shelf as Debussy's Preludes and Ravel's Mirroirs(sp?)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 26, 2011, 08:04:38 AM
I don't really see why a Koechlin thread can't have as many posts as Havergal Brian. He's just as original,quirky,eccentric,individualistic,ambitiotious and unfairly neglected. Furthermore,(and I'm not knocking Brian!) his range is far more eclectic and daring in scope. Koechlin also wrote some outsize works,although none of them quite as record breaking as the 'Gothic' or the ever elusive 'Prometheus Unbound'! More Koechlin posts please!
Of unrecorded works,I hope I will eventually get to hear his 'Symphony of Hymns' amongst many others. Hanssler would be ideal for such projects.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 08:10:43 AM
Now Playing:  Koechlin's Chant Funebre, which is gorgeous.

This is a choral work with orchestra right? I've heard it was beautiful. I believe it's on this recording which I have coming:

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 08:26:58 AM
I don't really see why a Koechlin thread can't have as many posts as Havergal Brian. He's just as original,quirky,eccentric,individualistic,ambitiotious and unfairly neglected. Furthermore,(and I'm not knocking Brian!) his range is far more eclectic and daring in scope. Koechlin also wrote some outsize works,although none of them quite as record breaking as the 'Gothic' or the ever elusive 'Prometheus Unbound'! More Koechlin posts please!
Of unrecorded works,I hope I will eventually get to hear his 'Symphony of Hymns' amongst many others. Hanssler would be ideal for such projects.

Yes, I agree, but I may be a little biased. ;) :D Anyway, yes, Koechlin was very much his own man and I suppose this loner quality that he projects ,not only through his music, but through his personality as well, resonates with me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 08:42:39 AM
Does anyone know how to pronounce Koechlin's name? I need help with this as my French is horrible. Thanks.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Brewski on April 26, 2011, 08:47:31 AM
This site, www.forvo.com, is pretty good, and they actually have a Koechlin (albeit not Charles):

http://www.forvo.com/search/Koechlin/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 08:52:12 AM
This site, www.forvo.com, is pretty good, and they actually have a Koechlin (albeit not Charles):

http://www.forvo.com/search/Koechlin/

--Bruce

Thanks Bruce, but the last name was spoken so fast that I didn't really catch it. I repeated it a few times. What I got from it is "Kay-clun." Is this correct?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Brewski on April 26, 2011, 09:01:02 AM
Someone else with more French than I should probably weigh in, but for the first syllable: form your mouth as if to say "Kirk," but then actually say "Keck." The second syllable is closer to "Lohn," with a very short "o" and a very mild, almost dropped "n."

--Bruce
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 09:06:03 AM
Someone else with more French than I should probably weigh in, but for the first syllable: form your mouth as if to say "Kirk," but then actually say "Keck." The second syllable is closer to "Lohn," with a very short "o" and a very mild, almost dropped "n."

--Bruce

Okay, I got it! Keck-lohn.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 26, 2011, 09:21:51 AM
This is a choral work with orchestra right? I've heard it was beautiful. I believe it's on this recording which I have coming:



That's the one.  A fine album.

You DID order the one with Dr. Fabricus, I hope?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 26, 2011, 09:25:09 AM
Okay, I got it! Keck-lohn.

One of the dangers of researching Koechlin on the web is that you may hit several sites for the Bollywood Actress Kalki Koechlin.  I went over dozens of photos before I realized I was in the wrong place.

(http://www.trendingissues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Kalki-Koechlin-Hot-Photos.jpg)
(http://mimg.sulekha.com/kalki-koechlin/stills/kalki-koechlin-stills07.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 10:39:23 AM
That's the one.  A fine album.

You DID order the one with Dr. Fabricus, I hope?

Yes, I ordered all of the Koechlin recordings with Holliger conducting.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on April 26, 2011, 10:44:14 AM
You've probably ordered more Koechlin recordings this week than the rest of North America combined.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 10:45:33 AM
You've probably ordered more Koechlin recordings this week than the rest of North America combined.

 :P So sad, but probably true.

There's a group on Facebook dedicated to Koechlin and I've been enjoying meeting some of these people who possess more knowledge than I do about his music. Some of these people have been listening to him for 40 years or more and it's always interesting to get their perspectives on the music that they love.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 11:19:57 AM
I wonder how our fellow Brianite, Johan, feels about Koechlin's music?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 11:56:32 AM
Here is an even better list, with opus numbers in order, of Koechlin's output:

http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Charles_Koechlin (http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Charles_Koechlin)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 12:13:39 PM
Let's keep this puppy going...


B  U  M  P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
Does anyone know if Holliger is going to continue his Koechlin series?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 26, 2011, 01:33:12 PM
I wonder how our fellow Brianite, Johan, feels about Koechlin's music?


I should have a serious listen to be able to say anything of interest. Watch this space...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 01:44:12 PM

I should have a serious listen to be able to say anything of interest. Watch this space...

Do you own The Jungle Book?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 26, 2011, 01:46:50 PM
Do you own The Jungle Book?


No, but I do Vers la Voûte étoilée, Docteur Fabritius and Heures persanes...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 03:02:57 PM

No, but I do Vers la Voûte étoilée, Docteur Fabritius and Heures persanes...

You should definitely see if you can't track down Zinman's recording with the Berlin Radio Symphony on RCA. It's out-of-print, but I don't think you'll have a hard time finding a copy in the used market. I'm simply addicted to this work. It's massive (not a Gothic scale), but is essentially a collection of symphonic poems and a song cycle titled Three Poems for vocalists, chorus, and orchestra.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 03:39:54 PM
I find it quite curious that RCA has let the original recording go out-of-print. It was reissued as an import, which interestingly contains the Seven Stars Symphony, but knowing how RCA cheapens their reissued products, it may be better to track the original recording down.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on April 26, 2011, 07:10:21 PM
Here is an even better list, with opus numbers in order, of Koechlin's output:

http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Charles_Koechlin (http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Charles_Koechlin)

Actually, after Milhaud and Martinu, this list wasn't so bad.

His Piano Music output is manageable, and there is basically one Sonata a piece for violin, viola, and cello, the 3 SQs and one PQ, and poof!, that's it for the traditional stuff.

The winds is where it gets confusing, each instrument being treated to an inexplicable amount of 'Pieces' and Sonatas.

Then, there are a few,... not too many, harp/ or harpsichord ensemble pieces, and I think that does it for the Chamber Music.


I posted my comments about the SQs and PQ. I thought, before I heard him, that he was going to be the Perfect Impressionist Composer, but, I'm not sure I found that here. Don't get me wrong, they were impressive pieces, but I wasn't prepared for so much personality,... very Gothic sounding, perhaps? Satie + Honegger = Koechlin?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 26, 2011, 07:23:18 PM
Actually, after Milhaud and Martinu, this list wasn't so bad.

His Piano Music output is manageable, and there is basically one Sonata a piece for violin, viola, and cello, the 3 SQs and one PQ, and poof!, that's it for the traditional stuff.

The winds is where it gets confusing, each instrument being treated to an inexplicable amount of 'Pieces' and Sonatas.

Then, there are a few,... not too many, harp/ or harpsichord ensemble pieces, and I think that does it for the Chamber Music.


I posted my comments about the SQs and PQ. I thought, before I heard him, that he was going to be the Perfect Impressionist Composer, but, I'm not sure I found that here. Don't get me wrong, they were impressive pieces, but I wasn't prepared for so much personality,... very Gothic sounding, perhaps? Satie + Honegger = Koechlin?

I haven't heard any of Koechlin's chamber works, his SQs, or his solo piano music. I will probably get some down the road at some point. Satie + Honegger? Sure hell why not! :D What's interesting about Koechlin is the way he moves more subdued, Impressionistic type of movements to more edgy, almost Rite of Spring primitivism or at least this is what he accomplishes in The Jungle Book. His attention to harmonic color is some of the most interesting I've heard. I mean I thought Debussy and Ravel were masters of harmony, but Koechlin is just working on a completely different level.

Since the word of the day around the forum seems to be influence, Koechlin was an immense influence on 20th Century French music, especially in regard to Les Six. He was a notable theorist and teacher. Wrote tons of books on harmony and orchestration. Some of his notable students were Poulenc, Tailleferre, and, believe it or not, Cole Porter.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on April 26, 2011, 08:27:23 PM
I read this in the notes of one CD and liked it:

"A little boy asked his mother: 'Why does that gentleman have a large beard?' 'I have a large beard because I like it!', replied Koechlin forcefully."
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on April 26, 2011, 09:35:27 PM
Some of his notable students were Poulenc, Tailleferre, and, believe it or not, Cole Porter.
Why shouldn't we believe that? After all, Burt Bacharach studied with Milhaud; and in the elegant and unexpected harmonic twists of many of Burt's masterful songs, I might well perceive the influence of the polytonal frenchman.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on April 27, 2011, 12:52:46 AM
 I vaguely recall Bacharach saying that as a music student he felt ashamed of his facility for tunes, but his teacher said, no, you have a rare, wonderful gift. I wonder if that was Milhaud?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: mjwal on April 27, 2011, 03:12:31 AM
I am delighted to see the interest in this fascinating composer :)

Thank you, Peter, for your informative and illuminating post which moved the thread on from my perhaps maladroit comparison with Havergal Brian :). (The comparison was not intended to be of musical idiom but entirely of a reputation which both men shared for having an unrealistic and impractical appreciation of what could or could not reasonably be expected of contemporary orchestras and audiences.)

Leaving that to one side, however ;D.....I cannot really add much to what Peter has, so admirably, described. Koechlin's sound world is not unique in so far as the elements which comprise his music are derived from a wide-range of influences but the mixing of these elements together is frequently astonishing and, I think, in advance of what many others were doing in his time.

"Les heures persanes" is indeed particularly "intoxicating". I do not have the Holliger(Hanssler) version but the older Segerstam(Marco Polo) disc. I cannot therefore make a comparison but I see that Rob Barnett in his review of the Holliger on Musicweb actually prefers the Segerstam.

If you do respond to Scriabin or-as erato points out- to early Messiaen  then you should find this music of real interest.

Regarding Koechlin the man-his interests outside of music appear to have been as diverse! Astronomy, Philosophy, Literature and....early Film. This led to 'The Seven Stars' Symphony' of 1933 in which each movement is dedicated to and inspired by a star of the screen(Douglas Fairbanks, Lilian Harvey, Greta Garbo, Clara Bow, Marlene Dietrich, Emil Jennings and Charlie Chaplin). I don't really think it is much more than a curiosity, to be honest, but an interesting one nevertheless :)

The complete Jungle Book however...that is another story!

I am picking up this thread on an older post here, as it resonates with me in a specific way. I too haven't heard the Holliger version of Heures Persanes, which in its orchestral form is one of my favourite pieces ever, but judging by the other Holliger-led recordings of Koechlin I suspect that it is high on clarity and low on suggestiveness - lacking what Adrian Corleonis always calls "divination" - so I will stick with Segerstam, who is also fine with the Buisson ardent and Sur les flots lointains etc (when will Naxos start reissuing these?). The Korstick recording of the piano version strikes me as very much in the Holliger vein: it lacks suggestive mystery for my taste.
I cannot concur with the above statement about the marvellous Seven stars symphony, which has become one of my fixes of choice since I was finally able to acquire and hear it, thanks to a wonderful French music 2-CD compilation from Sony France
(http://88.191.98.38/covers/front/0886974868729.jpg)
which is a total winner in other respects too: apart from the Judd 7 Stars, Munch conducting Milhaud, D'Indy, Ibert, Honegger, Roussel, Dukas & Saint-Saens, with a few others (Bernstein, Boulez and Mercier) doing Schmitt, more S-S & Dukas, Chabrier. While the subject of the symphony seems almost trivial, the music itself is ravishing and I can hardly imagine a better performance. It doesn't make me think of film stars at all except in that it evokes the hypnotic dream world of old black and white fantasy films (Sternberg for example) with thaumaturgical sleight of hand while completely eschewing any banal sense of narrative or drama.
Of course, like others, I recommend the Zinman Jungle Book with a fond backward glance to the Dorati LP version of Les Bandar-Log which introduced me to Koechlin back in the early 70s (one reason never to abandon my LP collection, as everyone I know seems to have done).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 03:29:44 AM
I totally agree with you about the lovely,underated 'Seven Stars Symphony'. Play it again Sam!

PS: For anyone who wants to hear this,the emi Myrat conducted version is perfectly acceptable if you're wallet won't stretch,or doesn't want to stretch to the more expensive alternatives. (Hey,I'm a BIG Charles Tournemire Symphonies 1-8 fan & I have to put up with his Symphonies 1,2 & 4 in those dodgy Marco Polo recordings!)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:25:47 AM
Finally had a look at some photo's of Lilian Harvey just see what Koechlin got so excited about. Hm! Each to his own......
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:32:47 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3o9FUDlJrSw/TCfJuDuQygI/AAAAAAAAAPw/hQ_V3Hg0NZ4/s1600/lilian10.jpg)

Nothing wrong there (to these eyes)...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 27, 2011, 06:04:35 AM
I am picking up this thread on an older post here, as it resonates with me in a specific way. I too haven't heard the Holliger version of Heures Persanes, which in its orchestral form is one of my favourite pieces ever, but judging by the other Holliger-led recordings of Koechlin I suspect that it is high on clarity and low on suggestiveness - lacking what Adrian Corleonis always calls "divination" - so I will stick with Segerstam, who is also fine with the Buisson ardent and Sur les flots lointains etc (when will Naxos start reissuing these?). The Korstick recording of the piano version strikes me as very much in the Holliger vein: it lacks suggestive mystery for my taste.

How can you judge the Holliger recordings without even hearing them? You're other comments were interesting, but this quoted post above is puzzling to me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 06:19:50 AM
Nuh! I prefer the girl in the Harold LLoyd films (no,not the one who became his wife). Oh and what about Louise Brooks? Didn't Koechlin feel ANYTHING for Louise Brooks? Good God!
Or what about Mae West? Although I get a feeling Koechlin wouldn't have been on her list to 'come up and see her some time'! Mae preferred musclemen. A pity. A 'Mae West Symphony' by Koechlin could have been fun.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 06:24:54 AM
Actually,she would probably have made mincemeat out of him!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: mjwal on April 27, 2011, 09:03:39 AM
How can you judge the Holliger recordings without even hearing them? You're other comments were interesting, but this quoted post above is puzzling to me.
Actually, this is puzzling to me, since I have heard the other Holliger recordings, in fact I have a couple of them, though not the Heures  - I was just suggesting that I might not prefer the Holliger version of the Heures. I do appreciate his recordings of K, they are so excellent that their deficiency (to my ears) is all the more striking.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 27, 2011, 04:49:05 PM
Actually, this is puzzling to me, since I have heard the other Holliger recordings, in fact I have a couple of them, though not the Heures  - I was just suggesting that I might not prefer the Holliger version of the Heures. I do appreciate his recordings of K, they are so excellent that their deficiency (to my ears) is all the more striking.

Ah, okay, sounds good. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 27, 2011, 07:09:31 PM
I'm not sure if anybody knows, but is Holliger going to continue his Koechlin series? There's still a bunch of orchestral works that have yet to be recorded.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
so I will stick with Segerstam, who is also fine with the Buisson ardent and Sur les flots lointains etc (when will Naxos start reissuing these?).

Naxos has reissued those recordings. The CD was delivered to me today:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos2.jpg)

Bargain basement presentation though. No liner notes whatsoever so I don't know why Pascale Rouse-Lacordaire is mentioned on the cover. Did he make the "for strings" arrangement of Sur les flots lointains?


Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on April 28, 2011, 03:42:44 AM
Naxos has reissued those recordings. The CD was delivered to me today:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos2.jpg)

Bargain basement presentation though. No liner notes whatsoever so I don't know why Pascale Rouse-Lacordaire is mentioned on the cover. Did he make the "for strings" arrangement of Sur les flots lointains?


Sarge
Not available in the UK as of yet at least...

But I'm more curious as to whether you were able to secure the 7 stars symphony at a reasonable price, and how?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 03:46:58 AM
Nuh! I prefer the girl in the Harold LLoyd films (no,not the one who became his wife). Oh and what about Louise Brooks? Didn't Koechlin feel ANYTHING for Louise Brooks? Good God!
Or what about Mae West? Although I get a feeling Koechlin wouldn't have been on her list to 'come up and see her some time'! Mae preferred musclemen. A pity. A 'Mae West Symphony' by Koechlin could have been fun.

Louise Brooks? Mae West? You must like bad girls ;)  (From that era my favorites include Hedy Lamarr and Faye Wray...and yes, Brooks).

I don't know why Koechlin was obsessed with Lilian Harvey. He did compose her movement in the Seven Stars' Symphony before he'd even seen her films so he was attracted to her on looks alone. The wholesome girl-next-door type? The obsession came later. Harvey tended to play good girls (at least in the films I've seen). Maybe it was that sweetness that attracted him?

Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 03:52:57 AM
Not available in the UK as of yet at least...

But I'm more curious as to whether you were able to secure the 7 stars symphony at a reasonable price, and how?

Not exactly reasonable but not insane either: 35 Euro including shipping from an Amazon DE seller.


Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 28, 2011, 04:12:29 AM
Not exactly reasonable but not insane either: 35 Euro including shipping from an Amazon DE seller.

Perhaps you can offer 15 Euro and get just three stars.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on April 28, 2011, 04:23:30 AM
Pascale Rousse - Lacordaire is an "ondiste" , a musician who plays the ondes Martenot.


P.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 04:30:28 AM
Pascale Rousse - Lacordaire is an "ondiste" , a musician who plays the ondes Martenot.


P.

Ah...thank you.


Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2011, 05:51:20 AM
Naxos has reissued those recordings. The CD was delivered to me today:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/koechlinnaxos2.jpg)

Bargain basement presentation though. No liner notes whatsoever so I don't know why Pascale Rouse-Lacordaire is mentioned on the cover. Did he make the "for strings" arrangement of Sur les flots lointains?


Sarge

That's the bad things about that CD-R recordings from Naxos. No liner notes, so for me this recording isn't even an option unless I can an original.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 06:08:01 AM
That's the bad things about that CD-R recordings from Naxos. No liner notes, so for me this recording isn't even an option unless I can an original.

I'm enjoying the music, but yeah, it's so cheaply made and yet costs more than a real Naxos CD. I won't buy any others.

Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: mjwal on April 28, 2011, 07:44:45 AM
Perhaps you can offer 15 Euro and get just three stars.
As I pointed out in an earlier mail, you can get the 7 *s symphony quite cheaply in a Sony two disc compilation of Escales symphoniques francaises - from Amazon.fr marketplace for 9,51 €. Amazing bargain.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2011, 08:15:10 AM
As I pointed out in an earlier mail, you can get the 7 *s symphony quite cheaply in a Sony two disc compilation of Escales symphoniques francaises - from Amazon.fr marketplace for 9,51 €. Amazing bargain.

Four CDs actually, and new from Amazon for only €12. Amazing indeed. But I wanted the original packaging and booklet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on April 28, 2011, 10:09:32 AM
Just what I need, another composer, recordings of whose works are all out-of-print.   :P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Luke on April 28, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
Four CDs actually, and new from Amazon for only €12. Amazing indeed. But I wanted the original packaging and booklet.

Sarge

Got my copy just now for 10 pounds. Thanks guys, I'd never seen that set before!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Luke on April 28, 2011, 10:25:09 AM
BTW my only Koechlin contribution - I admire the pieces I know, and what I know best is Les Heures Persanes, which I know in both versions and which I play myself in their piano incarnation too. Fabulous writing for the instrument. Something in the style - the piano style, the notation style, the mysticism and sensuality - reminds me of Jolivet, a composer we hardly see mentioned round here. Not just Jolivet, but I thought I'd throw his name into the mix!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on April 28, 2011, 12:09:26 PM
BTW my only Koechlin contribution - I admire the pieces I know, and what I know best is Les Heures Persanes, which I know in both versions and which I play myself in their piano incarnation too. Fabulous writing for the instrument. Something in the style - the piano style, the notation style, the mysticism and sensuality - reminds me of Jolivet, a composer we hardly see mentioned round here. Not just Jolivet, but I thought I'd throw his name into the mix!

Another Ondiste.  I dont know much Jolivet, but I like his concerto for the ondes Martenot.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The Six on April 28, 2011, 03:34:00 PM
Everyone should search for Koechlin's Hommage a Fauré. A group of composers wrote one upon Fauré's death with letters in his name making up the melody; Koechlin's in particular I find to be strikingly heartfelt and unique. It's more than just him playing with the letters.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
But I wanted the original packaging and booklet.

Sarge

Spoken like a true collector. :) I'm proud of you, young Jedi.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on April 28, 2011, 04:58:16 PM
Spoken like a true collector. :) I'm proud of you, young Jedi.

You have much to learn, grasshopper.   0:)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2011, 05:19:25 PM
You have much to learn, grasshopper.   0:)

Ah, you speak too soon, young Padawan. :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 28, 2011, 05:27:03 PM
I've recently heard some Koechlin for the first time, these were the CDs:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jBZS07SRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iDeqC8FqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have only sampled each disc just to get a flavor of the music but can tell that he will be another French composer I will enjoy.  I've also got the Zinman recording of The Jungle Book but have not listened to that at all yet.  I am not sure why he is considered "fringe" or "exotic", at least so far, what I have heard is late 19th-early 20th century French music similar to Milhaud or Poulenc.

I especially like the saxophone disc.

I own both discs above - recommended; I really love the saxophone recording - just ordered the Jungle Book w/ Zinman!  :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
just ordered the Jungle Book w/ Zinman!  :)

Excellent choice. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2011, 06:18:24 PM
BTW my only Koechlin contribution - I admire the pieces I know, and what I know best is Les Heures Persanes, which I know in both versions and which I play myself in their piano incarnation too. Fabulous writing for the instrument. Something in the style - the piano style, the notation style, the mysticism and sensuality - reminds me of Jolivet, a composer we hardly see mentioned round here. Not just Jolivet, but I thought I'd throw his name into the mix!

Outside of The Persian Hours, what else do you enjoy? Have you heard his Jungle Book? By the way, I love The Persian Hours what an atmospheric work. It has such a subtlety to that if you're not paying attention you'll miss those beautiful harmonic flourishes.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Sid on April 28, 2011, 09:18:38 PM
Just spent an hour on youtube listening to a variety of excerpts from Koechlin:

First I listened to this 9 minute excerpt from Le Buisson Ardent conducted by Segerstam. Nice piece. I liked the lush filmic quality & it flowed along very nicely. IMO it sounded most similar to Debussy, but the world of late Romantics like Grieg, Scriabin & Mahler was not too far away either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39aSihd_s5I&feature=related

Next I listened to the first two movements of the Sonata for Oboe & Piano Op. 58. The first movement for me was a bit boring & didn't quite get off the ground, but the scherzo had some bounce at least. For the most part, these two movements were quite lyrical and innocuous to listen to, but they didn't sound easy to play either.

Then some solo piano music, two pieces from From ' Paysages et Marines ', Op. 63 Nos. 3 & 5, played by Philip Sear (below). This is more like it! Some of the harmonies remind me of Ives or Ornstein, it's like a more civilised and European version of their solo piano music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7xOEnkWYic&feature=related

Then part one of Le Livre de la Jungle - V. Les Bandar-log, Op.176 (1939-1940) with RSO Berlin under David Zinman. This is also interesting, the way in which the initial tranquil scene is interrupted by chaos probably shows the influence of Stravinsky. Some disjointed counterpoint towards the end is straight out of something by Villa-Lobos, but probably more quirky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lFhFxn_xw&feature=watch_response_rev

Finally, the "Marlene Dietrich" (5th) movement from the The Seven Stars' Symphony, op. 132 (1933) played by the Deutsches Symphonie - Orchester Berlin conducted by James Judd. Like the use of the sax, makes it sound a bit like a film score (appropriately). Towards the end, a bit of the pathos of Mahler's Adagietto from his 5th symphony comes to mind, but with much less angst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdomFs3FCM&feature=related

All up, some interesting music, not a bad way to spend an hour online. I'm not rushing out to buy any of his music, but Koechlin was an interesting composer for sure, synthesising influences from a number of disparate sources very effectively...

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 29, 2011, 03:33:22 PM
Just spent an hour on youtube listening to a variety of excerpts from Koechlin:

First I listened to this 9 minute excerpt from Le Buisson Ardent conducted by Segerstam. Nice piece. I liked the lush filmic quality & it flowed along very nicely. IMO it sounded most similar to Debussy, but the world of late Romantics like Grieg, Scriabin & Mahler was not too far away either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39aSihd_s5I&feature=related

Next I listened to the first two movements of the Sonata for Oboe & Piano Op. 58. The first movement for me was a bit boring & didn't quite get off the ground, but the scherzo had some bounce at least. For the most part, these two movements were quite lyrical and innocuous to listen to, but they didn't sound easy to play either.

Then some solo piano music, two pieces from From ' Paysages et Marines ', Op. 63 Nos. 3 & 5, played by Philip Sear (below). This is more like it! Some of the harmonies remind me of Ives or Ornstein, it's like a more civilised and European version of their solo piano music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7xOEnkWYic&feature=related

Then part one of Le Livre de la Jungle - V. Les Bandar-log, Op.176 (1939-1940) with RSO Berlin under David Zinman. This is also interesting, the way in which the initial tranquil scene is interrupted by chaos probably shows the influence of Stravinsky. Some disjointed counterpoint towards the end is straight out of something by Villa-Lobos, but probably more quirky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lFhFxn_xw&feature=watch_response_rev

Finally, the "Marlene Dietrich" (5th) movement from the The Seven Stars' Symphony, op. 132 (1933) played by the Deutsches Symphonie - Orchester Berlin conducted by James Judd. Like the use of the sax, makes it sound a bit like a film score (appropriately). Towards the end, a bit of the pathos of Mahler's Adagietto from his 5th symphony comes to mind, but with much less angst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdomFs3FCM&feature=related

All up, some interesting music, not a bad way to spend an hour online. I'm not rushing out to buy any of his music, but Koechlin was an interesting composer for sure, synthesising influences from a number of disparate sources very effectively...

Glad you enjoyed some of Koechlin, Sid. Obviously, there's a lot to this composer's sound-world. One minute he casts an Impressionistic spell on the listener, then, like in many sections of The Jungle Book, he veers towards atonality and a kind of Stravinskian/Bartokian primitivism. You should definitely try and explore more of his music at some point. His music rewards the listener.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2011, 05:57:00 PM
Is Chant funebre a la memoire des jeunes femmes defuntes just an incredible piece of music or what?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on May 01, 2011, 10:09:37 PM
Yes it is. My favorite work from a great set. I think I posted on it a year or so ago when I had a similar phase with these great Holliger discs.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2011, 05:20:13 PM
Haydnfan or Scarpia have you received your copies of The Jungle Book yet? I'm curious to hear your impressions of the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 05:21:20 PM
Haydnfan or Scarpia have you received your copies of The Jungle Book yet? I'm curious to hear your impressions of the music.

It has arrived but I'm not sure when I'll have time to listen.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2011, 05:22:25 PM
It has arrived but I'm not sure when I'll have time to listen.

Just let me know when you hear it and what your impressions are. I'm always curious to hear what people have to say about Koechlin's music whether positive or negative. He's so unique.

P.S. I knew I forgot somebody. SonicMan let me know your impressions as well when you hear it. Amazing three people bought the same recording in the same week.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 02, 2011, 05:55:08 PM
Haydnfan or Scarpia have you received your copies of The Jungle Book yet? I'm curious to hear your impressions of the music.

Mine hasn't arrived yet.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2011, 06:20:02 PM
Mine hasn't arrived yet.

Let me know what you think about it once you've heard the complete cycle. As I said, I'm always curious to know what people think of Koechlin's music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 07:40:19 PM
Has anyone heard their Jungle Book recording with Zinman yet? Scarpia, David?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 07:52:50 PM
Has anyone heard their Jungle Book recording with Zinman yet? Scarpia, David?

Sorry, what listening time I had available this weekend went to Schnittke, Vaughan Williams and some Mozart.  It's on the pile, though.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 08, 2011, 08:03:57 PM
Sorry, what listening time I had available this weekend went to Schnittke, Vaughan Williams and some Mozart.  It's on the pile, though.

This is good. I'm not sure how big of a fan you are of Impressionism, but Koechlin developed his own unique brand of it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2011, 03:41:22 AM
Has anyone heard their Jungle Book recording with Zinman yet? Scarpia, David?

Sorry it's still on the pile, I've been making my way through my BRO order.  I'll listen tonight though.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 06:50:02 AM
I'll listen tonight though.

Sounds good. Please let me know what you think whenever you've digested some of the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: mjwal on May 09, 2011, 06:52:49 AM
I've been listening to the wonderful Holliger CD with Les Bandar-log and the Offrande musical sur le nom de BACH - very impressed and now am tempted to get Holliger's Heures Persanes after all despite my love for the Segerstam. I cannot imagine a better performance of the Offrande and the Bandar-log is close to perfection. After listening to the latter yesterday I decided today to pull out my old LP with Dorati conducting the BBCSO. Here is richness - richness of timbres, of harmonic movement, of orchestral interplay - and a modernist violence combined with voluptuously mysterious forest murmurs & rumblings. The old LP can't achieve the same level of transparency as the Holliger but is closer to what I would call la nature brute. Both recordings make the most of the percussive effects, with one passage sounding quite like Bartók's celesta & ghostly strings in the MFSPC. Listening to the Zinman after these two I was slightly disappointed - the sound stage is lacking in depth, the monkeys much less chaotic & more neo-classical, the whole percussive aspect flatter in perspective & less threatening. Altogether there is less sense of mystery and inevitability in the music's progress. I will go on listening to Zinman in the other pieces of the Jungle Book, but for the Bandar-log it's definitely the Holliger - with the hope of finding the Dorati recording cleanly remastered or transferred, either on CD or (more likely) on the net some day soon. The BBC orchestra is clearly the richest sounding of the three and Dorati offers a true alternative to Hollliger's and the RSO Stuttgart's superlative digital recording.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 10:19:44 AM
I've been listening to the wonderful Holliger CD with Les Bandar-log and the Offrande musical sur le nom de BACH - very impressed and now am tempted to get Holliger's Heures Persanes after all despite my love for the Segerstam. I cannot imagine a better performance of the Offrande and the Bandar-log is close to perfection. After listening to the latter yesterday I decided today to pull out my old LP with Dorati conducting the BBCSO. Here is richness - richness of timbres, of harmonic movement, of orchestral interplay - and a modernist violence combined with voluptuously mysterious forest murmurs & rumblings. The old LP can't achieve the same level of transparency as the Holliger but is closer to what I would call la nature brute. Both recordings make the most of the percussive effects, with one passage sounding quite like Bartók's celesta & ghostly strings in the MFSPC. Listening to the Zinman after these two I was slightly disappointed - the sound stage is lacking in depth, the monkeys much less chaotic & more neo-classical, the whole percussive aspect flatter in perspective & less threatening. Altogether there is less sense of mystery and inevitability in the music's progress. I will go on listening to Zinman in the other pieces of the Jungle Book, but for the Bandar-log it's definitely the Holliger - with the hope of finding the Dorati recording cleanly remastered or transferred, either on CD or (more likely) on the net some day soon. The BBC orchestra is clearly the richest sounding of the three and Dorati offers a true alternative to Hollliger's and the RSO Stuttgart's superlative digital recording.

I disagree with your opinion about Zinman. I think the performances are fine. Much more superlative than Segerstam's recordings. In The Persian Hours I like both Holliger and Segerstam, but I think Segerstam has a bit more raw edge that I like, but, still, this is too close to call. This said, my favorite recordings of the Holliger series are:





These recordings only rectified Koechlin's greatness for me. They added another dimension to my appreciation of this composer. I really hope that Holliger continues his Koechlin series as there's still so much to record.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on May 09, 2011, 10:50:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4146190ATZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Has anyone heard this version of Junglebook?

Stuart Bedford (Conductor), Orchestre National de Montpellier Languedoc -Roussilon.
Iris Vermillion, Vincent Le Texier, Jacques Trussel

Peter
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4146190ATZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Has anyone heard this version of Junglebook?

Stuart Bedford (Conductor), Orchestre National de Montpellier Languedoc -Roussilon.
Iris Vermillion, Vincent Le Texier, Jacques Trussel

Peter

No, I haven't and the reason I've avoided it is because it's a live recording, which doesn't bother me, but there is audience applause after each piece. This to me is just annoying.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 11:49:48 AM
What I admire about Koechlin is he didn't need the approval of his peers or really an audience to compose music. He was very much his own man. He composed music because it was what he born to do. He did it out of necessity, not because it was something "hip" to do.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on May 09, 2011, 01:01:20 PM
Listened again to the Piano Quintet. I think it combines an elusive, mysterious harmonic pallette a la faure, with a more generally Sinister sound, a la EA Poe/Baudelaire. Caplet/Pierne meet a doped up Szymanowski? Maybe not thaaat hallucinatory, but still a very strong profile,... almost reminds me of Roy Harris, in that modal way.

I guess I'm starting to warm up to the 3 String Quartets and this PQ, all written around the same early phase. Perhaps it's that I find their length arrogant, or their seeming perfection of inspiration,... they certainly seem to inhabit the world of the 'Lilies' and such paintings of gardens and such,... very perfumed, but not sexual (a la Szymanowski),... very lazy sounding a la Villa-Lobos of the 3rd String Quartet. I'd even put a tiny dab of Ives in there (or Cowell perhaps?).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 01:09:11 PM
Listened again to the Piano Quintet. I think it combines an elusive, mysterious harmonic pallette a la faure, with a more generally Sinister sound, a la EA Poe/Baudelaire. Caplet/Pierne meet a doped up Szymanowski? Maybe not thaaat hallucinatory, but still a very strong profile,... almost reminds me of Roy Harris, in that modal way.

I guess I'm starting to warm up to the 3 String Quartets and this PQ, all written around the same early phase. Perhaps it's that I find their length arrogant, or their seeming perfection of inspiration,... they certainly seem to inhabit the world of the 'Lilies' and such paintings of gardens and such,... very perfumed, but not sexual (a la Szymanowski),... very lazy sounding a la Villa-Lobos of the 3rd String Quartet. I'd even put a tiny dab of Ives in there (or Cowell perhaps?).

I have not heard any of Koechlin's chamber works, but the way you're describing them, it won't be long before this will change. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2011, 05:08:05 PM
After listening to the Jungle Book,... well Koechlin has too much of a new agey feel to him for my taste, but thanks for pointing him out to me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
After listening to the Jungle Book,... well Koechlin has too much of a new agey feel to him for my taste, but thanks for pointing him out to me.

Wow...that's a quick dismissal. :) But you're certainly entitled to your opinion as I am mine about Messiaen, which was like getting ripped to shreds by a pack of wolves.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 09, 2011, 05:17:53 PM
Yeah you don't mess with Messiaen fans! :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 05:22:11 PM
Yeah you don't mess with Messiaen fans! :D

God forbid I do that! That's a taboo around here! >:D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 04:40:37 AM
I listened to 'Le Docteur Fabricius' twice last night after listening to the shorter work on the (Hanssler) cd. After an imposing and relatively easy to listen to opening the writing gets very strenuous,to say the least;but compared to Messiaen (oops! Must be careful) it's not too much of a problem. But the big suprise is on track 10 of the cd,at approximately 3' 35" in. Suddenly,what I can only describe as an astonishing (and I MEAN astonishing) glissando (or something like that,I'm not a musician) on the Ondes Martenot,swooping up and down the scales,followed by some wonderfully evocative & very quiet writing for it (haunting,I call it),and after that the music becomes much more approachable & traditionally melodic. A marvellous piece,well worth the trip.
  By the way,I have 'Le buisson ardent' here (Marco Polo). Any comments on this piece. It'll be going on later!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 06:23:44 AM
But only after 'Blossom Dearie'!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 06:54:57 AM
I listened to 'Le Docteur Fabricius' twice last night after listening to the shorter work on the (Hanssler) cd. After an imposing and relatively easy to listen to opening the writing gets very strenuous,to say the least;but compared to Messiaen (oops! Must be careful) it's not too much of a problem. But the big suprise is on track 10 of the cd,at approximately 3' 35" in. Suddenly,what I can only describe as an astonishing (and I MEAN astonishing) glissando (or something like that,I'm not a musician) on the Ondes Martenot,swooping up and down the scales,followed by some wonderfully evocative & very quiet writing for it (haunting,I call it),and after that the music becomes much more approachable & traditionally melodic. A marvellous piece,well worth the trip.
  By the way,I have 'Le buisson ardent' here (Marco Polo). Any comments on this piece. It'll be going on later!

Le Docteur Fabricius is a fine piece, cilgwyn. I've listened to it many times, and like you, I love the journey it takes you on. It's like one giant acid trip. :D

Le buisson ardent, as with all of Koechlin's music, is just very hard to describe, but you will like it I'm sure.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 07:28:59 AM
Actually,I didn't expect a description,I just wondered what you thought of the piece as you don't seem to have mentioned it much here. I get the feeling it's not one of your favourites.
Koechlin seems to share some affinities with Schmitt. Some of his music is very lush,almost impressionistic. At times his music is acerbic,sinewy,strenuous,even dissonant. Other than that they are two very different people.
  Your observation about music being very difficult to describe reminds me of a very tongue in cheek thread on the old defunct R3 Message board in which forum users attempted to describe orchestral music in terms of 'mouth music' (the kind of thing you do in the bath or while washing up?) ie:

Holst's  'Mars': (opening bars) BAH-BUH-BUH,BUH BUUUM! BAAAH! BAAAH! (etc)
Khatchaturian: 'Sabre Dance' : Duhduhduhduhdaraduradaraduraduraduraduraduheeeeyooooooooooooow!

Or Koechlins 'Ondes Martenot' : oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooooooHHH!

You get the drift!
Anyway,I'm off before the men in white coats arrive!!!

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 07:29:50 AM
See,it is possible to describe music!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 08:51:04 AM
Actually,I didn't expect a description,I just wondered what you thought of the piece as you don't seem to have mentioned it much here. I get the feeling it's not one of your favourites.
Koechlin seems to share some affinities with Schmitt. Some of his music is very lush,almost impressionistic. At times his music is acerbic,sinewy,strenuous,even dissonant. Other than that they are two very different people.
  Your observation about music being very difficult to describe reminds me of a very tongue in cheek thread on the old defunct R3 Message board in which forum users attempted to describe orchestral music in terms of 'mouth music' (the kind of thing you do in the bath or while washing up?) ie:

Holst's  'Mars': (opening bars) BAH-BUH-BUH,BUH BUUUM! BAAAH! BAAAH! (etc)
Khatchaturian: 'Sabre Dance' : Duhduhduhduhdaraduradaraduraduraduraduraduheeeeyooooooooooooow!

Or Koechlins 'Ondes Martenot' : oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooooooooHHH!

You get the drift!
Anyway,I'm off before the men in white coats arrive!!!

Well perhaps you have an easier time describing music than I do. By the way, I love Le buisson ardent. The last 8-9 minutes of this work are absolutely gorgeous.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 09:24:35 AM
Yes,Malcolm Macdonald ('The Symphonies of Havergal Brian Kahn & Averill) eat your heart out. I'll have to write a book.Seriously,he's one of the few who have really pulled off the very difficult,if not next to impossible,art of using words to describe what music actually sounds like. (The books themselves are classics and really SHOULD be re-published).
'Blossom Dearie' is still on. It's a 2cd set,so 'Le buisson ardent' won't be on just yet. If you haven't heard 'Blossom Dearie' I won't try and describe her. 'A soft little whispery,warm,humorous sounding voice' could put people off.
 Regarding,the recording of 'The Jungle Book' mentioned above. In my humble opinion,people who applaud after every single movement or part of a piece of music are every bit as bad as those wretched 'coughers' who fill up concert halls these days.
Idiots! How can Koechlin's music evoke the jungles of Kipling's India when your ears are being ambushed by clappers? Tigers yes,but not clappers! Throw 'em out,I say,or chop their hands off!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 09:28:27 AM
Yes,Malcolm Macdonald ('The Symphonies of Havergal Brian Kahn & Averill) eat your heart out. I'll have to write a book.Seriously,he's one of the few who have really pulled off the very difficult,if not next to impossible,art of using words to describe what music actually sounds like. (The books themselves are classics and really SHOULD be re-published).
'Blossom Dearie' is still on. It's a 2cd set,so 'Le buisson ardent' won't be on just yet. If you haven't heard 'Blossom Dearie' I won't try and describe her. 'A soft little whispery,warm,humorous sounding voice' could put people off.
 Regarding,the recording of 'The Jungle Book' mentioned above. In my humble opinion,people who applaud after every single movement or part of a piece of music are every bit as bad as those wretched 'coughers' who fill up concert halls these days.
Idiots! How can Koechlin's music evoke the jungles of Kipling's India when your ears are being ambushed by clappers? Tigers yes,but not clappers! Throw 'em out,I say,or chop their hands off!

Well said. Maybe you should write a book. ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:15:40 AM
I should have mentioned the other pieces on the disc. 'Au loin,piece symphonique' (Insert: loud applause here!),which makes a lovely opener. 'Sur les flots lointains,poeme symphonique' (Insert loud applause here!) folows on track 2 & 'Hello?',I think it's on now? (cordless headphones,that's the trouble,the cd players downstairs). And after 'Le buisson ardent'* (Insert loud applause here!) on track 4 'Sur les flots lointains' for strings (Insert loud applause here!). I think I'm going to enjoy this,minus the clapping of course.

* not it's full title I note.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 10:17:46 AM
I should have mentioned the other pieces on the disc. 'Au loin,piece symphonique' (Insert: loud applause here!),which makes a lovely opener. 'Sur les flots lointains,poeme symphonique' (Insert loud applause here!) folows on track 2 & 'Hello?',I think it's on now? (cordless headphones,that's the trouble,the cd players downstairs). And after 'Le buisson ardent'* (Insert loud applause here!) on track 4 'Sur les flots lointains' for strings (Insert loud applause here!). I think I'm going to enjoy this,minus the clapping of course.

* not it's full title I note.

This is the only Segerstam disc I don't own. I think I'm going to have to get it as I don't have Au loin or Sur les flots lointains. Please let me know what you think of these works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:26:36 AM
Actually,see my comment on the Brian thread. 'Whoaaaa!' This really IS something!!!!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:48:41 AM
I haven't got that far yet,but the first piece was absolutely lovely. 'Le buisson ardent' is pretty spectacular stuff for 'ondes martenot' fanciers. The way the instrument suddenly shoots in. Some of this is wild,wacky,stunningly virtuosic music,but on the other side of the coin there are the lovely serene passages and those bits where Koechlin 'ondes martenot' sings hauntingly as if to itself. This has to be one of Marco Polo's best discs. I'm cooking some green beans at the moment so it's hard to follow it as closely as I'd like to,but this is the aural equivalent of a glittering banquet. Koechlin's use of timbe,colour and texture tickles your shell like. It's marvellous.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 10:58:18 AM
I haven't got that far yet,but the first piece was absolutely lovely. 'Le buisson ardent' is pretty spectacular stuff for 'ondes martenot' fanciers. The way the instrument suddenly shoots in. Some of this is wild,wacky,stunningly virtuosic music,but on the other side of the coin there are the lovely serene passages and those bits where Koechlin 'ondes martenot' sings hauntingly as if to itself. This has to be one of Marco Polo's best discs. I'm cooking some green beans at the moment so it's hard to follow it as closely as I'd like to,but this is the aural equivalent of a glittering banquet. Koechlin's use of timbe,colour and texture tickles your shell like. It's marvellous.

Excellent and very colorful description as well! I just bought this recording, so I look forward to hearing another interpretation of Le buisson ardent. Do you think Koechlin's music would be difficult to perform for an orchestra? I think in my estimation that one of the most difficult things in Koechlin's music would be getting the right balances and the only way for this to happen is to have a very talented conductor on the podium who can hear this. Of course there are many virtuosic passages in Koechlin's music, but the attention that needs to be made to detail is very important. If there's one wrong note, then the whole thing could very well collapse. It reminds me of the attention that needs to be made in performance of say Berg's Violin Concerto or Three Pieces for Orchestra where everything has a place and must be played as accurately as possible.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
I have a bit of a gripe here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Henk on May 10, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
I have a bit of a grip here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

It's up to Johan to like Brian.

It's true people lead different lives and like different things. That's only a good thing.

For Johan liking Brian is a kind of treatment however. A treatment to the soul other people can't understand, and which is exclusive for fans of Brian. Since when do classical composers have 'fans'? And why is a composer like Brain called a 'symphonist'?

Henk
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 11:50:18 AM
I have a bit of a grip here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music. Music is subjective people. We are all wired differently. Do you people go telling Johan he's crazy for liking Brian's music? I mean do you so quickly judge him that it becomes almost insanely impossible for him to speak his mind again?

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

Haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin or claim the music had no value, he just said "too new-age for my taste."   The bad karma that came from your criticism of Messiaen arose because you fairly explicitly described Messiaen's music as worthless, despite being familiar with very little of it.  If there is a double standard here, it is that you take offence just because someone fails to agree with your enthusiasm for your favorite composer , then you turn around and condemn in the strongest terms music that, in some cases, you have not even heard.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 11:59:21 AM
Haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin or claim the music had no value, he just said "too new-age for my taste."   The bad karma that came from your criticism of Messiaen arose because you fairly explicitly described Messiaen's music as worthless, despite being familiar with very little of it.  If there is a double standard here, it is that you take offence just because someone fails to agree with your enthusiasm for your favorite composer , then you turn around and condemn in the strongest terms music that, in some cases, you have not even heard.

Don't give me that crap, Scarpia. You know good and well that people said some pretty nasty things to me because of what I said about Messiaen. I know haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin and if he did what could I possibly do to change his mind? Nothing. It seems to me that people around here are able to speak freely, but when I have something negative to say about their favorite composers, then that is somehow an abomination.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 12:02:04 PM
It's up to Johan to like Brian.

It's true people lead different lives and like different things. That's only a good thing.

For Johan liking Brian is a kind of treatment however. A treatment to the soul other people can't understand, and which is exclusive for fans of Brian. Since when do classical composers have 'fans'? And why is a composer like Brain called a 'symphonist'?

Henk


Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 12:06:49 PM

Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.

I feel the same way about Koechlin. I like the music. I like Brian's music too, so I guess that makes me extra special. ;) Anyway, Brian was a symphonist, why would anything indicate that he wasn't? He composed 32 symphonies, so I think this qualifies him as one. :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 12:11:17 PM
Don't give me that crap, Scarpia. You know good and well that people said some pretty nasty things to me because of what I said about Messiaen. I know haydnguy didn't ridicule Koechlin and if he did what could I possibly do to change his mind? Nothing. It seems to me that people around here are able to speak freely, but when I have something negative to say about their favorite composers, then that is somehow an abomination.

That's the weird thing.  No one said anything particularly nasty to you.  After you ridiculed Messiaen they mostly praised Messiaen for having the virtues you claimed he lacked, and you took offence.

For instance, Sforzando wrote:

Quote
Which is precisely why it is worth debating, because one's individual perceptions may reflect a skewed view of reality that if challenged may lead to greater insight and growth as a listener.

and you responded

Quote
Well you can debate by yourself. You will be doing this anyway, because I already told you that I don't care for his music, but if you're so hellbent on changing my opinion, therefore trying to prove Messiaen's worth to me, then by all means go right ahead. All I said I don't care for his music and people here act like it's the end of the world. Get over it. It's just one man's opinion. People have tried to get me into his music and have failed because I don't hear anything great about it. Like I said, it's outer space music with no rhyme or reason, it's just an endless series of random notes that make no logical sense to me.

Why so defensive?  All he said was that if you pay attention to other peoples opinions you might change your mind.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Henk on May 10, 2011, 12:24:38 PM

Henk, I like Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Nielsen, Sibelius et cetera, et cetera. And I like Brian. Not because he is 'difficult' and I want to feel special by 'understanding' him. No, just because I love the music and it speaks to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this). You're free not to like him. But don't impute to me motives I don't have. I fell in love with Brian's music when I was sixteen and the most rabid Mahlerian in history... And why call Brian a 'symphonist'? Why call you a human being? He is. You are.

Ok, I don't believe you really have these motives, but you make me think so however. You convinced me now, sorry for having bothered you with it, you corrected the image I had, but which was possibly evoked by you.

Let's not call Brian an ordinary late-romantic symphonist, but let's give the other late-romantic composers the same, obscure and to-forget status of Brian. So with Brian all late-romantic music will considered to be strange and bad music. That may be the good thing about Brian! ;D

Joking a bit, but this is how it can end up with late-romantic music actually.

Henk
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 12:28:19 PM
That's the weird thing.  No one said anything particularly nasty to you.  After you ridiculed Messiaen they mostly praised Messiaen for having the virtues you claimed he lacked, and you took offence.

For instance, Sforzando wrote:

and you responded

Why so defensive?  All he said was that if you pay attention to other peoples opinions you might change your mind.

I didn't take offense to anything, Scarpia. I said I don't like Messiaen's music and thought it was worthless, which I still believe it is, and people started crying and howling like a bunch of babies. That's what happened. Now, moving along...

Who's your favorite composer or the one composer you couldn't live without?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
Ok, I don't believe you really have these motives, but you make me think so however. You convinced me now, sorry for having bothered you with it, you corrected the image I had, but which was possibly evoked by you.


Didn't want to give that impression. I am glad that's cleared up now.  :)

Quote
Let's not call Brian an ordinary late-romantic symphonist, but let's give the other late-romantic composers the same, obscure and to-forget status of Brian. So with Brian all late-romantic music will considered to be strange and bad music. That may be the good thing about Brian! ;D


I am so glad you can see Brian's usefulness.  ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 01:12:08 PM
I didn't take offense to anything, Scarpia. I said I don't like Messiaen's music and thought it was worthless, which I still believe it is, and people started crying and howling like a bunch of babies. That's what happened. Now, moving along...

You don't see a distinction between saying you don't like something and saying it is "worthless?"

Quote
Who's your favorite composer or the one composer you couldn't live without?

I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Henk on May 10, 2011, 01:16:43 PM
I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.

I like that bending of question.

Henk
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
You don't see a distinction between saying you don't like something and saying it is "worthless?"

You don't see a distinction from one man's opinion vs. another man's opinion? I mean are you really that sensitive, Scarpia, that you can't deal with the fact that somebody could hate a composer's music?

I don't think there is a composer I couldn't live without.  But if I was forced to spend the rest of my life listening to only one composer, I'd probably pick Brahms.

You just had to pick Brahms didn't you? ;) I don't mind Brahms, but his music doesn't do much for me these days. We all grow as listeners.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 01:45:34 PM
You don't see a distinction from one man's opinion vs. another man's opinion? I mean are you really that sensitive, Scarpia, that you can't deal with the fact that somebody could hate a composer's music?

The issue is the same issue you have over and over.  1)  You say composer X is worthless.  2) Various people protest the composer X is not worthless.  3)  You take umbrage that you are not allowed entertain your opinion.  I see two inconsistencies.  First, the statement that composer X is worthless is not an assertion of preference, it is a statement about the objective worth of the composers work.  Second, defense of the composer you have ridiculed is not an offense against you, since your preference is not at issue, but the intrinsic value of the composer you have criticized.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:10:09 PM
The issue is the same issue you have over and over.  1)  You say composer X is worthless.  2) Various people protest the composer X is not worthless.  3)  You take umbrage that you are not allowed entertain your opinion.  I see two inconsistencies.  First, the statement that composer X is worthless is not an assertion of preference, it is a statement about the objective worth of the composers work.  Second, defense of the composer you have ridiculed is not an offense against you, since your preference is not at issue, but the intrinsic value of the composer you have criticized.

And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage. Life's about choices. If haydnfan doesn't want to listen to Koechlin's music then he has every right to do so and speak about his distaste for his music, which I'm not offended by. I like Koechlin no matter what somebody else thinks or says about his music. People can post all their rants here if they so wish to do so. It still doesn't change the fact that I'm moved by the music. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend a composer they like. We're all going to enjoy the music we enjoy regardless of what the outside world thinks anyway, right?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage.


If someone says 'Koechlin's music is worthless to me', that isn't the same as saying 'Koechlin's music is worthless'. You must see there is a difference there? Of course you can say X's music doesn't mean a thing to you. But you can expect a strong reaction when such a feeling/opinion is proclaimed as objective truth. That's what Scarpia is saying.


And your point? Messiaen's music IS worthless to me. If I don't like a composer, I'm allowed to express my opinion. People can defend him all they want to, but what I'm saying is that it's a pointless argument. I still feel the same way after the wreckage. Life's about choices. If haydnfan doesn't want to listen to Koechlin's music then he has every right to do so and speak about his distaste for his music, which I'm not offended by. I like Koechlin no matter what somebody else thinks or says about his music. People can post all their rants here if they so wish to do so. It still doesn't change the fact that I'm moved by the music. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend a composer they like. We're all going to enjoy the music we enjoy regardless of what the outside world thinks anyway, right?


Do you really mean that? I think that anyone who loves a composer so much he likes to 'spread the word', will also want to defend him. Just because he loves the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:19:08 PM

If someone says 'Koechlin's music is worthless to me', that isn't the same as saying 'Koechlin's music is worthless'. You must see there is a difference there? Of course you can say X's music doesn't mean a thing to you. But you can expect a strong reaction when such a feeling/opinion is proclaimed as objective truth. That's what Scarpia is saying.

And my point is why defend a composer who obviously means nothing to somebody else. The argument is pointless. Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 02:20:13 PM
And my point is why defend a composer who obviously means nothing to somebody else. The argument is pointless. Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change. :)

If you just want to "get a rise out of people" why do you bitch and moan when you succeed?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:21:36 PM
Do you really mean that? I think that anyone who loves a composer so much he likes to 'spread the word', will also want to defend him. Just because he loves the music.

Music is subjective, Johan. Why would I want to defend a composer I enjoy? Where's the logic in that? Not everybody likes the same things I like.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:23:48 PM
If you just want to "get a rise out of people" why do you bitch and moan when you succeed?

It creates tension. If all I did was say I hate Messiaen's music and fled the scene where's the fun in that? But seriously, I was really just wanting to bash Messiaen, which I succeeded in doing. That f****** douchebag.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 02:28:09 PM
Music is subjective, Johan. Why would I want to defend a composer I enjoy? Where's the logic in that?


Liking music is subjective, true. But equating subjective enjoyment with objective value is something different. If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, I will try to explain why I think it isn't. That will not make him or her like the music, but it will perhaps make clear what is there to appreciate. That's all.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:36:24 PM

Liking music is subjective, true. But equating subjective enjoyment with objective value is something different. If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, I will try to explain why I think it isn't. That will not make him or her like the music, but it will perhaps make clear what is there to appreciate. That's all.

If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Henk on May 10, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.

I think to say some music is worthless doesn't much right to the efforts a composer has made. One can say that music is just bad and stimulate people in wrong directions, but to say it's worthless I just find a wrong word. Maybe one can say the people listening to some bad music are worthless. I get associations by this word that has not much to do with music, but with disqualifying behavior or mentality of people in a somewhat moral sense.

Henk
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:47:09 PM
I think to say some music is worthless doesn't much right to the efforts a composer has made. One can say that music is just bad and stimulate people in wrong directions, but to say it's worthless I just find a wrong word. Maybe one can say the people listening to some bad music are worthless. I get associations by this word that has not much to do with music, but with disqualifying behavior or mentality of people in a somewhat moral sense.

Henk

Okay how about the word despicable? Will this work?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 02:51:37 PM
If someone thinks Brian's music is worthless, then that's their right. Henk doesn't like his music? So what? It's not the end of the world because two people disagree.


Oh yes, of course it's their right. No problem. But worth is linked to taste and aesthetic discrimination. With worth you enter a public arena. If it is enough for you to love and to hate, fair enough. But once you vent an opinion, you can expect a reaction. If you don't want to defend a composer, don't propagate him either. Why even try? I think the value of seriously discussing the merits of an artist is in that it teaches you something, transcending the stalemate of 'I like it and you don't. End of story.'
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 02:55:21 PM
Oh yes, of course it's their right. No problem. But worth is linked to taste and aesthetic discrimination. With worth you enter a public arena. If it is enough for you to love and to hate, fair enough. But once you vent an opinion, you can expect a reaction. If you don't want to defend a composer, don't propagate him either. Why even try? I think the value of seriously discussing the merits of an artist is in that it teaches you something, transcending the stalemate of 'I like it and you don't. End of story.'

So what am I to do about haydnguy's comment that Koechlin's music is too "new agey" for him?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Henk on May 10, 2011, 02:56:19 PM
Okay how about the word despicable? Will this work?

You're searching for the most derogatory word that's appropriate? ;)

I would like to use the word 'mendacious'.

But the best thing to do, is to give your subjective experience and try to explain why you don't like some music or a composer. Nietzsche does so and influenced me strongly in this way.

Henk
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 03:02:29 PM
Special update: I have just bought the 18-CD box set of Messiaen on Erato simply titled the Messiaen Edition. I'm going to be open-minded about this and I'm also going to be stubborn in my pursuit of his music. I will find something I enjoy.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 03:04:32 PM
So what am I to do about haydnguy's comment that Koechlin's music is too "new agey" for him?


Ask him what he means by that. And if he can, see if it adds to your understanding of the music, if it does the music justice or not. If it doesn't, try to formulate why the music isn't 'new-agey'. In this way, there is a conversation which might make not only Koechlin's music clearer, but your own views, too, and those of haydnguy. GMG is a forum. And forum implies an exchange of ideas. Even a battle...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Bulldog on May 10, 2011, 03:05:28 PM
Look, I just like to get a rise out of people from time to time and Messiaen was the perfect target for that, but I still hate his music. That won't change. :)

Do you really expect members to get erections from your loopy statements?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 03:07:38 PM

Ask him what he means by that. And if he can, see if it adds to your understanding of the music, if it does the music justice or not. If it doesn't, try to formulate why the music isn't 'new-agey'. In this way, there is a conversation which might make not only Koechlin's music clearer, but your own views, too, and those of haydnguy. GMG is a forum. And forum implies an exchange of ideas. Even a battle...

I sent him a PM yesterday explain my own views of Koechlin's music, but I don't think I said it LOUD ENOUGH!!!! :D ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 03:08:38 PM
Do you really expect members to get erections from your loopy statements?

Lol....:P Loopy. I like that word. Wasn't this word used by Scarpia to describe some of Messiaen's later music?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Bulldog on May 10, 2011, 03:09:15 PM
Special update: I have just bought the 15-CD box set of Messiaen on Erato simply titled the Messiaen Edition. I'm going to be open-minded about this and I'm also going to be stubborn in my pursuit of his music. I will find something I enjoy.

You're quite the extremist, acquiring 15 cds of a worthless composer.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 03:11:22 PM
You're quite the extremist, acquiring 15 cds of a worthless composer.

I'm pretty stubborn that's for sure, but I'm stubborn about the right things. I'm going to listen this time with an open-mind. In all honesty, I find it astonishing that people came to the defense of this composer, not because he's a "bad" composer, but because if this kind of attitude is so strong than there must be something for me in his output. Makes me feel proud to be apart of this forum.

By the way, I'm really only joking when I called Messiaen's music worthless. That was an ignorant thing to say and I paid dearly for saying it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 04:24:03 PM
So anyway, this Koechlin dude...

I listened to some Amazon samples and thought what I heard had potential. Is there any one disc (orchestral) that you would especially recommend to the newbie?


BTW, I noticed a 2-CD set listed at HMV jp, conducted by Bedford on a label named Actes Sud (weird, huh). No other details given.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/726808
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2011, 05:24:26 PM
So anyway, this Koechlin dude...

I listened to some Amazon samples and thought what I heard had potential. Is there any one disc (orchestral) that you would especially recommend to the newbie?

Yes, I would start with Zinman's recording of The Jungle Book. It's the complete cycle and it's 2-CDs, but checkout these videos first before you proceed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctPTaigcRTE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctPTaigcRTE&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 08:29:44 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 11, 2011, 08:33:28 PM
Thank you!

You're welcome. Enjoy the music! :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Luke on May 12, 2011, 03:38:25 AM

Anyway, it's the dreadful double standards of this forum that keep me from expressing myself freely or the way I think I should be allowed to do.

You really think your free speech is being repressed?  ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 12, 2011, 04:41:32 AM
You really think your free speech is being repressed?  ;)

I can see what he means. Here are a couple of examples to support his point:

Quote
SCARPIA: Oh dear, looks like Philo has gone on hiatus
MI: Thank goodness. I hope he stays gone awhile.

MI: I have a bit of a grip [sic] here, it seems to be okay for people to dismiss Koechlin, like haydnguy has done, and it doesn't bother me that people don't like his music, but it's not okay for me to say I dislike Messiaen's music and when I do I get a whole panel of know-it-all, holier than thou eggheads telling me that I'm wrong for disliking his music.

MI (about me): He has constantly mocked my own opinion on numerous occasions, which, to my estimate, lies a larger problem deep in his psyche. He simply cannot stand to hear somebody bad mouth a composer he likes and if they do they are somehow "wrong" for feeling the way they do. He goes around with some sort of superiority complex, etc. etc.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 12, 2011, 05:00:36 AM
My fingers are crossed that I'll be the first to see it if MI moves the Messiaen set to the refusal bin! :D

You know seeing all of the confusion between me and haydnguy, I'm starting to think that I should go back to my previous handle, especially since every one knows my name anyway. :)

Let's forget that dust up on the Messiaen thread eh? it's not worth it.  MI, listen to Quartet for the End of Time, a work that could distract people from the horrors of war for a brief time in Stalag VIII-A, and let the worries over an internet forum pass you by. 0:)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 06:42:51 AM
You really think your free speech is being repressed?  ;)

Please excuse my rant. That's all it was, nothing more.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 06:45:38 AM
My fingers are crossed that I'll be the first to see it if MI moves the Messiaen set to the refusal bin! :D

You know seeing all of the confusion between me and haydnguy, I'm starting to think that I should go back to my previous handle, especially since every one knows my name anyway. :)

Let's forget that dust up on the Messiaen thread eh? it's not worth it.  MI, listen to Quartet for the End of Time, a work that could distract people from the horrors of war for a brief time in Stalag VIII-A, and let the worries over an internet forum pass you by. 0:)

No, David. I won't be getting rid of my Messiaen set. :) I have complete confidence that I will find something that I like in that set.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 04:48:06 PM
Thank you!

eyeresist, did you get a chance to watch those videos I linked? If yes, please share your thoughts with me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 06:54:39 PM
Good thing you prompted me, because otherwise I wouldn't have bothered (accessing YouTube is a hassle due to workplace restrictions - I have to go through a portal site).

I didn't listen to too much of the Jungle Book, as honestly I found it a bit of a bore.

OTOH, I really liked Vers la Voute Etoilee. It reminded me of the Russians (always good), plus in parts of the more reflective RVW (also good). My only quibble is the slightly scrappy playing. But this looks like being the first work of his I will acquire.
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 07:09:02 PM
Good thing you prompted me, because otherwise I wouldn't have bothered (accessing YouTube is a hassle due to workplace restrictions - I have to go through a portal site).

I didn't listen to too much of the Jungle Book, as honestly I found it a bit of a bore.

OTOH, I really liked Vers la Voute Etoilee. It reminded me of the Russians (always good), plus in parts of the more reflective RVW (also good). My only quibble is the slightly scrappy playing. But this looks like being the first work of his I will acquire.

Vers la Voute Etoilee is played fine. You're listening through YouTube, so, obviously, the audio quality isn't up to par with the CD itself. I think this particular work sounds like nobody but Koechlin, but, then again, I've listened to him enough to recognize his musical language. You found that link to The Jungle Book a bore? Hmmm...I find it enchanting from start to finish, but then we are only talking about The Meditation of Purun Bhagat. This particular piece builds up to a wonderful climax, that is, if you're patient enough to hear it. I think the idea with Koechlin is that if you're not willing to wallow in the impressionistic haze with him, then you're not going to get very far with the music, because, let me tell you, it rewards the listener as you patiently go along. I think the general problem with many classical listeners when they hear someone like Koechlin is their initial reaction is he's boring or he's too "new agey," but does this assessment really mean much in the long run? There's a viciousness that runs deep through Koechlin's Jungle Book, but I think the whole cycle is one of the greatest works of orchestral music in the 20th Century. I mean, for me, it's right up there with Stravinsky's three famous ballets, Villa-Lobos' Choros, etc. I guess it's fair to say that many people don't hear what I hear in the music and I'm perfectly fine with that, because I have found a composer who speaks directly to me rather than trying to break some special code in order to appreciate the music. The aren't many composers that do this for me, but Koechlin, Villa-Lobos, RVW, Ravel, Bartok, Stravinsky, Bruckner, Berg, and Milhaud are who I consider my musical soulmates.

I think if I'm willing to give Messiaen a fair trial than anybody else can do the same with Koechlin.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: JerryS on May 12, 2011, 07:56:14 PM
This forum is proving to be a wonderful guide to new musical discoveries! I had never heard of Koechlin. After reading through some of the posts in this thread I listened to Vers la Voûte étoilée op. 129 on Naxos Music Library (Holliger, Heinz; Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra). What a marvelous work! So accessible and evocative. I'm reminded of both Delius and early Schoenberg (Gurrelieder).

Next up is Jungle Book on Marco Polo!

Thank you for the recommendations!

Jerry
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 07:57:38 PM
I admit I wasn't terribly patient with that extract from the Jungle Book. I thought it might eventually develop into something, but after flicking through the first few minutes, I decided not to bother.

There is an RCA double combining Zinman's Jungle Book with Judd's disc of the Seven Stars et al., which might be a good first buy.
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 07:59:07 PM
This forum is proving to be a wonderful guide to new musical discoveries! I had never heard of Koechlin. After reading through some of the posts in this thread I listened to Vers la Voûte étoilée op. 129 on Naxos Music Library (Holliger, Heinz; Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra). What a marvelous work! So accessible and evocative. I'm reminded of both Delius and early Schoenberg (Gurrelieder).

Next up is Jungle Book on Marco Polo!

Thank you for the recommendations!

Jerry

Excellent, Jerry! Welcome to the forum. I don't think we met yet, but I'm glad to see that you enjoyed this work by Koechlin. Please contact me if you have any questions regarding this composer.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 08:03:03 PM
I admit I wasn't terribly patient with that extract from the Jungle Book. I thought it might eventually develop into something, but after flicking through the first few minutes, I decided not to bother.

There is an RCA double combining Zinman's Jungle Book with Judd's disc of the Seven Stars et al., which might be a good first buy.

Good things come to those who wait. ;)

Yes, I've seen this RCA double as well and it would be an excellent buy. I'm still on the lookout for an original copy of Judd's recording of Seven Stars Symphony. I haven't even heard this work yet, but there's still a lot of Koechlin's orchestral music that hasn't been recorded yet. I'm praying that Heinz Holliger continues his foray into this man's music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: JerryS on May 12, 2011, 08:26:12 PM
Excellent, Jerry! Welcome to the forum. I don't think we met yet, but I'm glad to see that you enjoyed this work by Koechlin. Please contact me if you have any questions regarding this composer.
Thanks! I'm new to the forum but a lifelong classical music lover. I decided to try some Koechlin chamber music, so I'm listening to Quintet No. 2 for Flute, Harp and String Trio, "Primavera II" performed by the Montreal Chamber Players on the ATMA Classique label. Very nice; I've always liked the flute and harp together.

Jerry
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 08:43:30 PM
I haven't even heard this work yet, but there's still a lot of Koechlin's orchestral music that hasn't been recorded yet. I'm praying that Heinz Holliger continues his foray into this man's music.

Is Hanssler the new cpo? ;)
 

EDIT: I've just been listening to samples from Persian Hours (orchestral). Wow.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pXal-fGPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Koechlin-Heures-Persanes-Persian/dp/B0000045ZV/ref=sr_1_25?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1305261693&sr=1-25)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 09:15:31 PM
Thanks! I'm new to the forum but a lifelong classical music lover. I decided to try some Koechlin chamber music, so I'm listening to Quintet No. 2 for Flute, Harp and String Trio, "Primavera II" performed by the Montreal Chamber Players on the ATMA Classique label. Very nice; I've always liked the flute and harp together.

Jerry

You're welcome, Jerry. I would like to dive into some of Koechlin's chamber works as well, but right now I'm so mesmerized by his orchestral music that it may take me awhile to get there. :) Not to deviate from this thread too much, but who are some of your favorite composers?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
Is Hanssler the new cpo? ;)
 

EDIT: I've just been listening to samples from Persian Hours (orchestral). Wow.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pXal-fGPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Koechlin-Heures-Persanes-Persian/dp/B0000045ZV/ref=sr_1_25?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1305261693&sr=1-25)

I don't know, eyeresist. I think both companies have given many hardcore classical fans, like us here on the forum, some great recordings to cherish for many years to come.

Yes, The Persian Hours is a fine piece. Very textural, and atmospheric.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2011, 06:53:18 AM
Has anyone here who can read music ever study a score by Koechlin?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Luke on May 13, 2011, 12:41:10 PM
Plenty of piano scores, but not orchestral ones. They are quite hard to come by, you have to be looking for them specifically, and when it comes to physical copies of scores that's not generally how I work (which is why I have such an eclectic collection!). Online they're also tricky to get - none on IMSLP for instance. But some of the piano music, as I say, I do have, and I've played through much of it. Les heures persanes is the finest of his piano pieces that I have played.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2011, 07:03:05 PM
Plenty of piano scores, but not orchestral ones. They are quite hard to come by, you have to be looking for them specifically, and when it comes to physical copies of scores that's not generally how I work (which is why I have such an eclectic collection!). Online they're also tricky to get - none on IMSLP for instance. But some of the piano music, as I say, I do have, and I've played through much of it. Les heures persanes is the finest of his piano pieces that I have played.

Is his music difficult to learn? I imagine the orchestral works could be troublesome.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 14, 2011, 07:52:44 AM
So anyway, this Koechlin dude...

eyeresist, did you ever end up buying any recordings?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 15, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
eyeresist, did you ever end up buying any recordings?

Sorry, it usually takes a couple of months for me to move from initial enthusiasm to actually getting my hands on a disc. In this case, I have just recently splurged at Amazon, so will have to give the wallet a rest for a little while. And then there is the time it takes to ship to Australia.... So sadly it will be a while before I have anything useful to say here.
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 15, 2011, 05:19:48 PM
Sorry, it usually takes a couple of months for me to move from initial enthusiasm to actually getting my hands on a disc. In this case, I have just recently splurged at Amazon, so will have to give the wallet a rest for a little while. And then there is the time it takes to ship to Australia.... So sadly it will be a while before I have anything useful to say here.

I see. Hmmm....
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 10:38:07 AM
I'm continuing rather late to this party . . . but I did find a new copy of Les Heures persanes, Opus 65 for $10 (incl. shipping) from a 3rd-party — that isn't you, shedding an extra copy, MI? ; )

Post-recital, I'll check out the discs I've already got at home . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2011, 10:38:56 AM
I'm continuing rather late to this party . . . but I did find a new copy of Les Heures persanes, Opus 65 for $10 (incl. shipping) from a 3rd-party — that isn't you, shedding an extra copy, MI? ; )

Post-recital, I'll check out the discs I've already got at home . . . .

Orchestra or piano version?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 10:40:30 AM
Orchestra:

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2011, 10:41:59 AM
Orchestra:



I see, Luke had spoken highly of the piano score and Stott's recording has been lingering in my shopping cart for a while now.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 10:47:46 AM
I see, Luke had spoken highly of the piano score and Stott's recording has been lingering in my shopping cart for a while now.

Thanks, I remembered Luke in connection with the piece, but I hadn't marked which version . . . here's hoping the orchestral version isn't a wash-out!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 10:49:31 AM
Thanks, I remembered Luke in connection with the piece, but I hadn't marked which version . . . here's hoping the orchestral version isn't a wash-out!

Plenty of piano scores, but not orchestral ones. They are quite hard to come by, you have to be looking for them specifically, and when it comes to physical copies of scores that's not generally how I work (which is why I have such an eclectic collection!). Online they're also tricky to get - none on IMSLP for instance. But some of the piano music, as I say, I do have, and I've played through much of it. Les heures persanes is the finest of his piano pieces that I have played.

And to think, if I'd only read further up this very page . . . I've pulled the trigger on the Stott, too.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2011, 10:56:08 AM
And to think, if I'd only read further up this very page . . . I've pulled the trigger on the Stott, too.

I have a recording of the Jungle book which I picked up for three bucks or so, which leaves me more inclined to sample piano music rather than more orchestral music.  What has inhibited me with this piece is the question of whether it is a exotic "Persian" set piece, or genuine French-Impressionist music. 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 11:11:23 AM
I'm continuing rather late to this party . . . but I did find a new copy of Les Heures persanes, Opus 65 for $10 (incl. shipping) from a 3rd-party — that isn't you, shedding an extra copy, MI? ; )

Post-recital, I'll check out the discs I've already got at home . . . .

Nope that's not me. I love The Persian Hours. It's such a textural work with so many vivid colors.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
Orchestra:



This is a great performance. In fact, the whole series with Holliger are worth owning, that is, if you like Koechlin's music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
I have a recording of the Jungle book which I picked up for three bucks or so, which leaves me more inclined to sample piano music rather than more orchestral music.  What has inhibited me with this piece is the question of whether it is a exotic "Persian" set piece, or genuine French-Impressionist music.

Dude, stfu and listen to it! Pretend it's called Compositon No.3 ;D

Seriously, it's great music, Koechlin had a really wonderful way with the piano, although I would personally suggest the CPO disc with paysages et marines just as much (les heures persanes is quite lengthy) - or just that piece in general :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 11:20:36 AM
Koechlin had a really wonderful way with the piano

He also had a wonderful way with the orchestra...just saying.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 17, 2011, 11:30:40 AM
Dude, stfu and listen to it! Pretend it's called Compositon No.3 ;D

 :o  Ok, ordering now, clicking with eyes averted, for my purchase of, ahem, composition number 3. 

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 11:41:17 AM
Karl, I'm curious what all do you own by Koechlin?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2011, 11:42:04 AM
Scarpia: no more outbursts, I promise :P

Heures persanes is quite special in the chronology of French music - a centre ground between Messiaen's vingt regards, and earlier 'impressionist' pieces :) Its date of composition of course reflects more of the latter, but it has that perfect weirdness to it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 03:21:28 PM
Karl, I'm curious what all do you own by Koechlin?

I'm curious, myself! I'm not sure. Will investigate & report. One thing's certain: I've not yet listened to a note…
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 03:26:47 PM
I'm curious, myself! I'm not sure. Will investigate & report. One thing's certain: I've not yet listened to a note…

??? You haven't heard a note of Koechlin's music? ???
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 03:37:39 PM
No, but I came very close a couple of Junes ago…

And this is the day.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 04:12:51 PM
No, but I came very close a couple of Junes ago…

What's taking you so long to listen to the music, Karl?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
What's taking you so long to listen to the music, Karl?

Nothing in particular! I "condensed" my library some time ago by putting many many discs into a few CD 'wallets' . . . the delay here is a simple intersection of Point A [Koechlin is not in my own first or even second tier (in fairness, he is an unknown)] with Point B [searching in the right wallet at the right time].

Mystery solved! Our man on Long Island long ago sent me The Jungle Book, and the disc of Vers la Voûte étoilée and Le Docteur Fabricius. I think I'll give that last piece a spin.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2011, 05:06:40 PM
Nothing in particular! I "condensed" my library some time ago by putting many many discs into a few CD 'wallets' . . . the delay here is a simple intersection of Point A [Koechlin is not in my own first or even second tier (in fairness, he is an unknown)] with Point B [searching in the right wallet at the right time].

Mystery solved! Our man on Long Island long ago sent me The Jungle Book, and the disc of Vers la Voûte étoilée and Le Docteur Fabricius. I think I'll give that last piece a spin.


Well for many years I put Koechlin on the to-get-to list and never made much time for him. I listened to The Jungle Book and thought it was interesting but it didn't make much of an impression on me. Fast forward a year or so later, I'm hooked. The harmonic aspect of his music just completely boggles my mind. Such lushness and, yet, the music remains direct. I found his music utterly enchanting. Hopefully, it will make some kind of impression on you and if it doesn't at least you tried.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 04:50:47 AM
Quote
Your Amazon.com order of "Charles Koechlin: Les Heur..." has shipped!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2011, 06:36:31 AM
I wonder how Karl is getting on with Koechlin?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on May 19, 2011, 07:02:02 AM
I wonder how Karl is getting on with Koechlin?

Well his big performance is today, so you might want to give him some time. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 19, 2011, 08:01:33 AM
Well, I believe that Koechlin will be my music for the afternoon - Persian Hours (have to agree w/ MI - quite atmospheric and dynamic, and often slowly paced - not to worry about 'Persian' sounds), Jungle Book for a second listen, and then some windy music (love both of those discs!) -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-k7gqkM4/0/O/KoechlinOp65Holliger.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Pmzt77L/0/O/KoechlinJungleBook.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5n45PXv/0/O/KoechlinClarient.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KoechlinSax/657791903_HfeUJ-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 19, 2011, 08:58:25 AM

Based on enthusiastic remarks from Lethe and Luke, ordered Stott's recording of "composition number 3."



Now I have one each of orchestral music and piano music release, just have to find some time to listen.   :P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 19, 2011, 01:48:43 PM
. . . "composition number 3."

Hah!

I've listened to "composition number 8" some three times now. It's growing on me. (Not sure just why I decided to concentrate on this one, rather than listen to the 3 (or 6, if you count one composite work by its components) I have at my immediate disposal.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 19, 2011, 01:51:39 PM
I've listened to "composition number 8" some three times now. It's growing on me.

And maybe in some way it is benefiting from all the Mompou listening I've been doing of late (which is no slight at all to Mompou).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 19, 2011, 04:58:07 PM
Well, I believe that Koechlin will be my music for the afternoon - Persian Hours (have to agree w/ MI - quite atmospheric and dynamic, and often slowly paced - not to worry about 'Persian' sounds), Jungle Book for a second listen, and then some windy music (love both of those discs!) -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-k7gqkM4/0/O/KoechlinOp65Holliger.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Pmzt77L/0/O/KoechlinJungleBook.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5n45PXv/0/O/KoechlinClarient.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KoechlinSax/657791903_HfeUJ-O.jpg)

I want to get some of Koechlin's chamber music at some point and those two recordings have flown under my radar as of late. Do you enjoy those recordings? What do you think about The Jungle Book?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 08:51:31 AM
I wonder how Karl is getting on with Koechlin?

Well, I've listened to Le Docteur Fabricius some four times.  [Twice, it was my lapse-into-slumber music, which is actually (cf. Harpo Marx) a great compliment.]  And I find I have liked it better, and thought yet better of it, each time.

I think I am sticking with my intuitive Hovhaness comparison (although I do hear the occasional RVW resonance, which I suppose may harmonize with Dundonnel's comparison to H. Brian). There is an artful simplicity, and a 'formal guileless-ness', which I find very winning.  I am a little puzzled at this piece's designation as a "tone-poem," partly because it is so apparantly fragmented into sections . . . strikes me more as a kind of suite of character pieces.

I am looking forward more than ever to Les Heures persanes (in both versions).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 20, 2011, 01:04:22 PM
You're doing tremendous work for Koechlin here,Mirror Image! I'd love to start a Tournemire thread that would have this many posts!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 02:48:06 PM
I want to get some of Koechlin's chamber music at some point and those two recordings have flown under my radar as of late. Do you enjoy those recordings? What do you think about The Jungle Book?

Hey MI - the Jungle Book is just excellent - a kaleidoscopic soundscape w/ a  variety of styles that can astound at times - Zinman does a superb performance in this repertoire - I'll need a couple more listens along w/ following the liner notes for more appreciation - a definite keeper for me!  :D

Now concerning Koechlin's chamber works, I have mainly the wind pieces (flute, clarinet, & saxophone) along w/ string quartets & a piano quintet - these are all wonderful experiences (from an early 20th century perspective) w/ a smorgasbord of styles (impressionistic, neo-classic, and some atonal influences) - much to be enjoyed; as a beginning I would suggest the saxophone disc (checkout the Federico Mondelci Website (http://www.federicomondelci.com/recordings.htm), the saxophonist for some samples (seem to be zip files but probably a lot better than the short snippets from other sites) - let us know what you obtain!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2011, 06:26:26 PM
Well, I've listened to Le Docteur Fabricius some four times.  [Twice, it was my lapse-into-slumber music, which is actually (cf. Harpo Marx) a great compliment.]  And I find I have liked it better, and thought yet better of it, each time.

I think I am sticking with my intuitive Hovhaness comparison (although I do hear the occasional RVW resonance, which I suppose may harmonize with Dundonnel's comparison to H. Brian). There is an artful simplicity, and a 'formal guileless-ness', which I find very winning.  I am a little puzzled at this piece's designation as a "tone-poem," partly because it is so apparantly fragmented into sections . . . strikes me more as a kind of suite of character pieces.

I am looking forward more than ever to Les Heures persanes (in both versions).


Excellent, Karl. I'm so happy you're getting along good with Koechlin's music. It is very mystical. I think of it as music of the cosmos. Koechlin isn't a perfect composer, as not many are, but I think anyone with an ear for harmonic color and music that is outside of a comfortable box will most definitely find something to enjoy in this music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2011, 06:27:51 PM
You're doing tremendous work for Koechlin here,Mirror Image! I'd love to start a Tournemire thread that would have this many posts!

Thank you, cilgwyn! :D Obviously, I didn't start this thread, but I probably would have had I joined this forum a few years ago.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2011, 06:31:08 PM
Hey MI - the Jungle Book is just excellent - a kaleidoscopic soundscape w/ a  variety of styles that can astound at times - Zinman does a superb performance in this repertoire - I'll need a couple more listens along w/ following the liner notes for more appreciation - a definite keeper for me!  :D

Now concerning Koechlin's chamber works, I have mainly the wind pieces (flute, clarinet, & saxophone) along w/ string quartets & a piano quintet - these are all wonderful experiences (from an early 20th century perspective) w/ a smorgasbord of styles (impressionistic, neo-classic, and some atonal influences) - much to be enjoyed; as a beginning I would suggest the saxophone disc (checkout the Federico Mondelci Website (http://www.federicomondelci.com/recordings.htm), the saxophonist for some samples (seem to be zip files but probably a lot better than the short snippets from other sites) - let us know what you obtain!  Dave  :)

Excellent Dave! I'm glad you're enjoying The Jungle Book. You know, it takes a special person to appreciate Koechlin. A person has to be interested in composers who were subtle in their writing and if one is an attentive listener than Koechlin rewards especially in multiple listens.

Thanks for filling me in on Koechlin's chamber music. I will be acquiring the recordings for wind instruments soon (Chandos, Hanssler Classics respectively).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 20, 2011, 08:31:30 PM
Here is a list of Koechlin's output I pulled from Wikipedia. I'm not sure how complete this is, but as you can tell he was extremely prolific:

Symphonies

Symphony in A major (1893–1900)
Symphony No.1 op.57bis (orchestral version, 1926, of String Quartet No.2)
The Seven Stars Symphony op.132 (1933)
Symphonie d’Hymnes (1936) [cycle of previously-composed independent movements]
Symphony No.2 op.196 (1943–44)[4]

Symphonic Poems

La Forêt, op.25 (1897–1906) & op.29 (1896–1907)
Nuit de Walpurgis classique op.38 (1901–1916)
Soleil et danses dans la forêt op.43 no.1 (1908–11)
Vers la plage lointaine, nocturne op.43 no.2 (1908–1916)
Le Printemps op.47 no.1 (1908–11)
L'Hiver op.47 no.2 (1908–10 orch 1916)
Nuit de Juin op.48 no.1 (1908–11 orch 1916)
Midi en Août op.48 no.2 (1908–11 orch 1916)
La Course de printemps op.95 (1908–25) (Jungle Book Cycle)
Vers la Voûte étoilée op.129 (1923–33)
La Méditation de Purun Bhaghat op.159 (1936) (Jungle Book Cycle)
La Cité nouvelle, rêve d’avenir op.170 (1938; after H.G. Wells)
La Loi de la Jungle op.175 (1939–40) (Jungle Book Cycle)
Les Bandar-log op.176 (1939–40) (Jungle Book Cycle)
Le Buisson ardent opp.203 (1945) & 171 (1938)
Le Docteur Fabricius op.202 (1941–44, orch 1946)

Other Orchestral Works

En rêve op.20 no.1 (1896–1900)
Au loin op.20 no.2 (1896–1900)
L’Automne, symphonic suite op.30 (1896–1906)
Études Antiques op.46 (1908–10)
Suite légendaire op.54 (1901–15)
5 Chorals dans les modes du moyen-age op.117 bis (1931 orch. 1932)
Fugue Symphonique ‘Saint-Georges’ op.121 (1932)
L’Andalouse dans Barcelone op.134 (1933)
Les Eaux vives – music for 1937 Paris Exposition Universelle, op.160 (1936)
Victoire de la vie op.167 (1938 – score for film by Henri Cartier)
Offrande musicale sur le nom de BACH op.187 (1942–46)
Partita for chamber orchestra op.205
Introduction et 4 Interludes de style atonal-sériel op.214 (1947–48)

Solo Instrument and Orchestra

3 Chorals for organ and orchestra op.49 (1909–16)
Ballade for piano and orchestra op.50 (1911–19) (also for solo piano)
Poème for horn and orchestra op.70 bis (1927 orch of Horn Sonata)
2 Sonatas for clarinet and chamber orchestra, opp.85 bis & 86 bis (1946 arrs of sonatas for clarinet and piano)
20 Chansons bretonnes for cello and orchestra op.115 (1931–32) (arrs of 20 Chansons bretonnes for cello and piano)
Silhouettes de Comédie for bassoon and orchestra op.193
2 Sonatines for oboe d’amore and chamber orchestra op.194 (1942–43)

Wind Band

Quelques chorals pour des fêtes populaires op.153 (1935–36)

Chamber Music

String Quartet No.1 op.51 (1911–13)
Sonata, flute and piano op.52 (1913)
Sonata, viola and piano op.53
Suite en quatuor pour flûte, violon, alto et piano op.55 (1911–1915)
String Quartet No.2 op.57 (1911–15) [see also Symphony No.1]
Sonata, oboe and piano op.58 (1911–16)
Sonata, violin and piano op.64 (1915–16)
Sonata, cello and piano op.66 (1917)
Sonata, horn and piano op.70 (1918–25)
Sonata, bassoon and piano op.71 (1918–1919)
String Quartet No.3 op.72 (1917–21)
Sonata, 2 flutes op.75 (1920)
Sonata No.1, clarinet and piano op.85 (1923)
Sonata No.2, clarinet and piano op.86 (1923)
Trio for flute, clarinet and bassoon (or violin, viola and violoncello) (1927)
Piano Quintet op.80
20 Chansons bretonnes for cello and piano op.115 (1931–32)
L’Album de Lilian (Book I) for soprano, flute, clarinet, piano op.139 (1934)
L’Album de Lilian (Book II) for flute, piano, harpsichord, Ondes Martenot op.149 (1935)
Quintet No.1 for flute, harp and string trio Primavera op.156 (1936)
14 Pièces for flute and piano op.157b (1936)
Épitaphe de Jean Harlow for flute, alto saxophone and piano op.164 (1937)
Septet for wind instruments op.165 (1937)
14 Pièces for clarinet and piano op.178 (1942)
14 Pièces for oboe and piano op.179 (1942)
15 Pièces for horn (or saxophone) and piano op.180 (1942)
15 Études for saxophone and piano op.188 (1942–44)
Sonate à sept for flute, oboe, harp and string quartet op.221
Morceau de lecture pour la flûte op. 218 (1948)
Quintet No.2 for flute, harp and string trio Primavera II op.223 (1949)
Stèle funéraire for flute, piccolo and alto flute op.224 (1950)

Instrumental Music

5 Sonatines for piano op.59 (1915–16)
4 Sonatines Françaises for piano duet, op.60 (1919) [also version for orchestra]
Paysages et Marines for piano op.63 (1915–16) [also arr. chamber ensemble]
Les Heures persanes, 16 pieces for piano op.65 (1913–19) [also orchestral version]
12 Pastorales for piano op.77 (1916–20)
4 Nouvelles Sonatines françaises for piano op.87 (1923–24)
L’Ancienne Maison de campagne for piano op.124 (1923–33)
Danses pour Ginger Rogers for piano op.163 (1937)
Vers le soleil – 7 monodies for Ondes Martenot op.174 (1939)
Suite for cor anglais op.185 (1942)
Les Chants de Nectaire, 96 pieces for flute solo in 3 series, opp.198, 199 & 200 (1944)
15 Préludes for piano op.209 (1946)
Le Repos de Tityre for oboe d’amore solo op.216

Choral Works

L’Abbaye, Suite religieuse for soli, chorus and orchestra opp.16 & 42 (1908)
3 Poèmes for soli, chorus and orchestra op.18 (Jungle Book Cycle)
Chant funèbre à la mémoire des jeunes femmes défuntes for chorus and orchestra op.37 (1902–08)
Chant pour Thaelmann for choir and piano or wind band op.138 (1934)
Requiem des pauvres bougres for chorus, orchestra, piano, organ and Ondes Martenot op.161 (1936–37)

Songs
(many with orchestra)

Rondels, Set I op.1 (1890–95)
4 Poèmes d’Edmond Haraucourt op.7 (1890–97)
Rondels, Set II op.8 (1891–96)
Poèmes d’automne op.13 (1894–99)
Rondels, Set III op.14 (1896–1901)
3 Mélodies op.17 (1895–1900)
2 Poèmes d’André Chénier op.23 (1900–02)
6 Mélodies sur des poésies d’Albert Samain op.31 (1902-6)
5 Chansons de Bilitis op.39 (1898–1908)
5 Mélodies sur des poèmes de ‘Shéhérazade’ de Tristan Klingsor Series I op.56 (1914–16)
8 Mélodies sur des poèmes de ‘Shéhérazade’ de Tristan Klingsor Series II op.84 (1922-3)
7 Chansons pour Gladys op.151 (1935)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2011, 04:06:31 AM
Mouth watering stuff there! I'd love to hear the 'Symphonie d'Hymnes', Surely Hanssler have this on their list of Koechlin works to record!
And,I may be wrong,but I don't think the early symphonies (if they still exist) prior to the wonderful 'Seven Stars Symphony' or the Second symphony have been recorded. I would check online,but I'd probably go on a Koechlin buying spree.
Incidentally,I have the choral work 'L'Abbaye' on cd,but with the (optional,I believe) organ accompaniment. I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread. I shall put the cd on as soon as I can locate it & report back with my reactions to it.
I do wish Sisyphe would re-issue their 3cd set of 'Le chants de nectaire'. As soon as I got round to buying it the set was deleted. With Koechlin the old saying 'strike while the iron is hot' is very true. There is a horribly expensive (on my current budget!) download I note. Perhaps an unusually generous seller may cough up a copy eventually!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2011, 06:00:24 AM
Mouth watering stuff there! I'd love to hear the 'Symphonie d'Hymnes', Surely Hanssler have this on their list of Koechlin works to record!
And,I may be wrong,but I don't think the early symphonies (if they still exist) prior to the wonderful 'Seven Stars Symphony' or the Second symphony have been recorded. I would check online,but I'd probably go on a Koechlin buying spree.
Incidentally,I have the choral work 'L'Abbaye' on cd,but with the (optional,I believe) organ accompaniment. I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread. I shall put the cd on as soon as I can locate it & report back with my reactions to it.
I do wish Sisyphe would re-issue their 3cd set of 'Le chants de nectaire'. As soon as I got round to buying it the set was deleted. With Koechlin the old saying 'strike while the iron is hot' is very true. There is a horribly expensive (on my current budget!) download I note. Perhaps an unusually generous seller may cough up a copy eventually!

The only symphony I know of that has been recorded is the Seven Stars Symphony. Other than this, I don't think any of them have been recorded. I would love to hear these works as well. I would love to hear all of his symphonic poems as well as there are many of these that haven't been recorded either. An observation of mine, looking at this list, is it took Koechlin 10 years to compose Vers la Voûte étoilée. This is interesting. I wonder if it was just he composed a little of it at a time or what? I'll have to read the liner notes on the Hanssler recording to find out.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 21, 2011, 03:39:05 PM
Mouth watering stuff there! I'd love to hear the 'Symphonie d'Hymnes', Surely Hanssler have this on their list of Koechlin works to record!

You know this is what I've been wondering myself. The last recording of orchestral music in the Hanssler series led by Holliger was in 2009 with this release:



Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 01:46:34 AM
Indeed! Logic tells you that if they are to continue with the series they've got to get to that one sooner....or later. It's obviously a glaring omission in the Koechlin discography. Of course,for all we know they could be working on it now. Not necessarily recording it,but all the relevant preparatory work that goes on before a recording of a long neglected or unperformed work can actually get to happen.
  And yes,I'd like to hear some more of the symphonic poems & suites in that list. The more the merrier,eh? Early works are interesting to hear too. They may have a less distinctive profile,but they are all part of the 'crossword puzzle',and you need to hear them.
Of the choral works,that 'Requiem' sounds interesting. I notice it includes his beloved Ondes martenot!



Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 02:37:52 AM
I finally located the Skarbo cd of 'L'Abbaye'. After looking & looking and almost giving up I heard a 'crack'. I looked down & there it was in the box with the front of the jewel case cracked! But at least I found it. (As soon as I have more bags I will continue clearing out my spare room. A Herculaean task!). But here it is AND the Hanssler recording of 'Les Heures persanes' & the Hyperion/Helios cd 'Music for Flute',AND the other Blossom Dearie album which I KNEW I had,'Blossom Dearie sings Comden and Green'! Whoooo-hooooooooo!
I won't play the Helios or Hanssler cd's until later on in the night as it is quiet music & I will be less likely to be disturbed by non musical people in the lane along side.
The 'Sonata for two flutes' is one of the best Koechlin works I have heard. Haunting,mysterious music. It beats Ravel & Debussy any day,in my book!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 02:46:00 AM
Koechlin seems to have had a particular fondness for the flute (as well as the OM).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 02:57:19 AM
Post No 4 in a row! The music on this Helios cd really IS lovely. I REALLY DO recommend this one & it SHOULD be cheap.......but oh my goodness,Hyperion have deleted it & the Amazon sellers are asking allot! (I got it for next to nothing!).
I must admit to not being big on songs,but Koechlin did write nice ones.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 03:02:06 AM
Lovely songs actually,why aren't they more popular? (Silly question I know!).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 03:20:05 AM
Can't take any more! The Sisyphe 3cd box set of 'Les Chants de nectaire' is downloading right now. Cost me £15.99 though. That's dedication for you. It'll be off to the soup kitchen to join the hungry tramps later. Or maybe I can buy a big dog & flog the 'Big Issue'?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
Indeed! Logic tells you that if they are to continue with the series they've got to get to that one sooner....or later. It's obviously a glaring omission in the Koechlin discography. Of course,for all we know they could be working on it now. Not necessarily recording it,but all the relevant preparatory work that goes on before a recording of a long neglected or unperformed work can actually get to happen.
  And yes,I'd like to hear some more of the symphonic poems & suites in that list. The more the merrier,eh? Early works are interesting to hear too. They may have a less distinctive profile,but they are all part of the 'crossword puzzle',and you need to hear them.
Of the choral works,that 'Requiem' sounds interesting. I notice it includes his beloved Ondes martenot!

The Requiem does indeed sound interesting. I bet it's a haunting work. I, too, would like to hear more of his early music. I'd to hear how his style developed as the years have gone by.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 07:49:59 AM
As you can see I've been keeping the thread going while you've been gone.
Yes,early and late. A pity he never tried opera (or did he?),but probably a good thing (for him) in the circumstances.
This flute music is very varied & in many ways the ultimate in new age music,but maybe too interesting to fit under that label. I looked at the Musicweb review of 'Les Chants de nectaire' & apparently there is or was another complete recording ( Basta Music on 5cd's). As far as I can make out the one I downloaded is the only one available. Andrew Clements on 'The Guardian' website gives the cd set a quite enthusiastic review. I was also glad to see that Musicweb recommended my Helios 'Music for flute' cd.
  Unfortunately my cd Writer refused to burn my download of 'Les Chants' after about 25 or 26 tracks due to an 'error detected'.Although I managed to get one cd-r out of it. Fortunately,I am able to listen to the entire work via my pc & my Sennheiser headphones. I will have to try & get to the bottom of this somehow. I'm more of a cassette man myself unfortunately.
If anyone out there can help I'd love to hear from you!
Failing all,I could always record from Windows Media onto my cassette player!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 08:24:03 AM
.....now where's that nice Teac cassette deck I was drooling over!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 09:45:53 AM
Listening to 'L'Abbaye' now. This really is lovely music,Very serene & the organ accompaniment is very evocative,(of an Abbey of course!).A very well recorded and performed disc. A delightful change from the Faure Requiem. Yet I am unable to find anything much about this work on the internet,let alone reviews. The front cover features one of Koechlin's 'photos' taken with a verascope,which I believe was an early French stereoscopic camera. The cd also includes some interesting solo organ works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
As you can see I've been keeping the thread going while you've been gone.

Yes and I appreciate your dedication to Koechlin. If only we can get more people turned onto the music, but this is a task for another day as today I'm too tired. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 04:13:25 PM
I hope that haydnfan gives Koechlin another try, but he never did answer my question as to whether he liked Impressionistic music or not? Anyway, it's good see Karl getting on good with the music. Karl compared Koechlin to Hovhaness and in some ways I agree, but in other ways I have to disagree. Hovhaness never wrote anything that sounded anything like The Spring Running or Las Bandar-log. These two works are a little too savage, especially with their almost atonal outbursts in the climaxes. Koechlin's style was somewhere between Impressionism, Neoclassicism, and the early developments of Messiaen, but more tonally inclined of course. I imagine Messiaen heard some of Koechlin's work at some point. Koechlin favored lush chord voicings as did Debussy and Ravel. Karl described his music beautifully a page or two back in this thread. The music sounds simple, but can change quickly into something more complex in a matter of minutes as Koechlin enjoyed creating vast walls of sound with these chord voicings. Here is what the Wikipedia article said about his style and compositions:

Koechlin was enormously prolific, as the worklist below (by no means exhaustive) suggests. He was highly eclectic in inspiration (nature, the mysterious orient, French folksong, Bachian chorale, Hellenistic culture, astronomy, Hollywood movies, etc.) and musical technique, but the expressive core of his language remained distinct from his contemporaries. At the start of his career he concentrated on songs with orchestral accompaniment, few of which were performed as intended during his lifetime. A recent (2006) recording of a selection (Hänssler Classic CD93.159) shows he was already master of an individual impressionism deriving less from Debussy than from Berlioz and Fauré. Thereafter he concentrated on symphonic poems, chamber and instrumental works.

After World War I his continuing devotion to the symphonic poem and the large orchestra at a period when neoclassicism and small ensembles were more fashionable may have discouraged performance and acceptance of his works. His compositions include the four symphonic poems and three orchestral songs making up Livre de la jungle after Rudyard Kipling; many other symphonic poems including Le Buisson Ardent after Romain Rolland (this is a diptych of two orchestral poems, performable separately) and Le Docteur Fabricius after a novel by his uncle Charles Dollfus; three string quartets; five symphonies including a Seven Stars Symphony inspired by Hollywood; sonatas for flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, horn, violin, viola and cello, and much other chamber music; many songs, over two hundred opus numbers in all; and a vast number of monodies, fugal studies, chorale harmonizations and other educational pieces. Many works remain unpublished, however.

He wrote in several styles, sometimes severe Baroque counterpoint, as in the fugue that opens his Second Symphony (unrecorded as of 2005), sometimes "impressionistically" as in the tone poem Au Loin, or, as in the Symphony No.2's scherzo, yet more astringently. He could go from extreme simplicity to extreme complexity of texture and harmony from work to work, or within the same work. Some of his most characteristic effects come from a very static treatment of harmony, savouring the effect of, for instance, a stacked-up series of fifths through the whole gamut of the instruments. His melodies are often long, asymmetrical and wide-ranging in tessitura. He was closely interested in the works of Schoenberg, some of which he quoted from memory in his treatise on Orchestration. The twelve tone technique is one of the several modern music styles parodied in the 'Jungle Book' symphonic poem Les Bandar-Log, but Koechlin also wrote a few pieces in what he described as the 'style atonal-sériel'. He was fascinated by the movies and wrote many 'imaginary' film scores and works dedicated to the Hollywood actress Lilian Harvey, on whom he had a crush. His Seven Stars Symphony features movements inspired by Douglas Fairbanks, Lilian Harvey, Greta Garbo, Clara Bow, Marlene Dietrich, Emil Jannings and Charlie Chaplin in some of their most famous film roles. He also composed an Epitaph for Jean Harlow and a suite of dances for Ginger Rogers. He was interested in using unusual instruments, notably the saxophone and the early electronic instrument the Ondes Martenot. One movement of the Second Symphony requires four of them (and has not usually been included in the few performances of the work, for that reason). He also wrote several pieces for the hunting-horn, an instrument he himself played. Koechlin orchestrated several pieces by other composers. In addition to the Fauré Pelléas et Mélisande suite mentioned above he orchestrated the bulk of Claude Debussy's 'legende dansée' Khamma under the composer's direction, from the piano score [1], and orchestrated Cole Porter's ballet Within the Quota; other works he transcribed include Schubert's Wanderer Fantasie and Chabrier's Bourrée Fantasque.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 22, 2011, 04:18:03 PM
I hope that haydnfan gives Koechlin another try, but he never did answer my question as to whether he liked Impressionistic music or not? Anyway, it's good see Karl getting on good with the music. Karl compared Koechlin to Hovhaness and in some ways I agree, but in other ways I have to disagree. Hovhaness never wrote anything that sounded anything like The Spring Running or Las Bandar-log.

Now, MI, you know that the only Koechlin I've listened to thus far is Fabricius.  So clearly I am not claiming that the two other titles you cite are at all like Hovhaness ; )  Of course, I don't know that Hovhaness wrote anything with ondes martenot, either . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 22, 2011, 04:20:44 PM
And, yes, I've read of the breadth of style in his large output; so rest assured that I do not suppose that Fabricius is at all representative of all his work. : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 04:26:33 PM
Now, MI, you know that the only Koechlin I've listened to thus far is Fabricius.  So clearly I am not claiming that the two other titles you cite are at all like Hovhaness ; )  Of course, I don't know that Hovhaness wrote anything with ondes martenot, either . . . .

Hovhaness composed so much music that I'm sure an ondes martenot was used in something. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
And, yes, I've read of the breadth of style in his large output; so rest assured that I do not suppose that Fabricius is at all representative of all his work. : )

Well no, but it was the last piece of orchestral music he composed. I wonder had Koechlin lived a few more years (he died at age 83) would have gone? I can only imagine.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 04:33:47 PM
Here is the post by Karl I was referring to a few posts ago:

Well, I've listened to Le Docteur Fabricius some four times.  [Twice, it was my lapse-into-slumber music, which is actually (cf. Harpo Marx) a great compliment.]  And I find I have liked it better, and thought yet better of it, each time.

I think I am sticking with my intuitive Hovhaness comparison (although I do hear the occasional RVW resonance, which I suppose may harmonize with Dundonnel's comparison to H. Brian). There is an artful simplicity, and a 'formal guileless-ness', which I find very winning.  I am a little puzzled at this piece's designation as a "tone-poem," partly because it is so apparantly fragmented into sections . . . strikes me more as a kind of suite of character pieces.

I am looking forward more than ever to Les Heures persanes (in both versions).


This was a joy to read from start to finish.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 22, 2011, 06:51:56 PM
I read that Koechlin wanted to become an astronomer, but his father wanted him in military uniform. I think this fascination with space and not knowing what exactly is out there comes across in his music. Like I mentioned earlier, a mystical type of feeling.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2011, 06:52:11 AM
I contacted Hanssler Classic today and I asked them if they were going to continue the orchestral pieces with Heinz Holliger conducting. Hopefully, I'll hear something in a day or two. I'll keep all the Koechlin fans informed as to what they say.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2011, 08:18:46 AM
Has anyone ever tried contacting Hanssler before? I wonder how long it takes?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 23, 2011, 07:27:41 PM
Got an email from Hanssler Classic and they said my question has been submitted to the "service team." I'm not sure what this means, but hopefully I'll get an answer soon. Us Koechlin fans want to know if we can expect more recordings from Holliger!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 02:55:30 AM
Sounds promising. I used to write letters to Chandos and Hyperion years ago trying to get them interested in various neglected composers. They always responded. I remember one letter from Chandos (I'll have to try and find it) telling me that Brian Couzens himself had read my letter & that they were planning a series of Ethel Smyth cd's. It's over 15 years now & the cd of the 'Serenade' and 'Concerto for Violin,horn & orchestra' remains their only Smyth cd,to date. On the other hand they said Mr Couzens was very interested in my suggestions for recordings of Joseph (or Josef) Holbrooke & according to some postings on the Chandos forum by the MC himself there is some possibility now that his interest may finally bear some long delayed fruit!
Which reminds me to write a letter (or email) 'Timpani' about an enthusiasm of my own,the symphonies of Charles Tournemire.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 03:26:33 AM
Got an email from Hanssler Classic and they said my question has been submitted to the "service team." I'm not sure what this means...

I believe they handle all the corporate 'wet work'.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 07:51:22 AM
Sounds promising.

Well we Koechlin fans need more miracles to happen. I mean a few recordings a year would even be nice. I would LOVE to hear someone like Boulez or even Tortelier conduct some of Koechlin's music. Can you imagine Pierre Boulez doing the whole cycle of The Jungle Book? Wow, now that would be something, especially if it is with the Cleveland Orchestra who are no strangers to Impressionistic music. I guess a man can dream, right?

Anyway, I got an email now stating that my inquiry has been passed onto "product management."
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 09:14:20 AM
Let's see how long Hanssler can give me run around before answering my question. Even if they don't put out any more Koechlin orchestral recordings, I have enough to savor for years to come, but the thought "why didn't they continue with the series" will always be in the back of my mind.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 09:36:21 AM
Let's see how long Hanssler can give me run around before answering my question. Even if they don't put out any more Koechlin orchestral recordings, I have enough to savor for years to come, but the thought "why didn't they continue with the series" will always be in the back of my mind.

The good news: Hannsler hears your prayers and will finish the series

The bad news: André Rieu will be conducting the Vienna Strauss Orchestra... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 09:39:56 AM
The good news: Hannsler hears your prayers and will finish the series

The bad news: André Rieu will be conducting the Vienna Strauss Orchestra... :-\

8)

The good news: I don't ever have to hear a note by Andre Rieu again.

The bad news: Hanssler sends me an email stating that it would rather put out another recording Beethoven's 9th, then a Koechlin recording.

??? >:( :'(
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 09:49:19 AM
The good news: I don't ever have to hear a note by Andre Rieu again.

The bad news: Hanssler sends me an email stating that it would rather put out another recording Beethoven's 9th, then a Koechlin recording.

??? >:( :'(

Really? They actually said that? Well, good news for me then. My 9th collection is languishing at 85.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 09:53:24 AM
Really? They actually said that? Well, good news for me then. My 9th collection is languishing at 85.... :-\

8)

No, I'm joking, Gurn.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 24, 2011, 09:57:18 AM
We're buying a keg for Gurn when the count reaches 125 . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 09:59:20 AM
No, I'm joking, Gurn.

Aw, you trickster, you had me grasping at straws! Why, I oughtta... >:(   :D

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 09:59:43 AM
The good news: I don't ever have to hear a note by Andre Rieu again.

The bad news: Hanssler sends me an email stating that it would rather put out another recording Beethoven's 9th, then a Koechlin recording.

My guess is that this release paid for all of your Koechlin sessions.



Have it yet, Gurn?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 10:31:57 AM
I got one from emi saying they'd rather record Des O' Connor than Joseph Holbrooke.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 10:45:32 AM
My guess is that this release paid for all of your Koechlin sessions.



Have it yet, Gurn?

Now, I'm depressed...thanks a lot. :'(

 ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 10:46:48 AM
I got one from emi saying they'd rather record Des O' Connor than Joseph Holbrooke.

EMI are a bunch of assholes. They would rather do a lot of things than listen to the customers.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 10:59:17 AM
My guess is that this release paid for all of your Koechlin sessions.



Have it yet, Gurn?

Does a fat baby poop?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 11:07:28 AM
Does a fat baby poop?   :)

Well, then, you're doing your part for the Koechlin revival.   :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2011, 11:08:46 AM
Well, then, you're doing your part for the Koechlin revival.   :)

I aim to please. :D

8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 24, 2011, 11:21:04 AM
Easy, fella! Any company could exhaust its capital rapidly, in the indiscriminate chase after listener suggestions (how d'you s'pose so much Dittersdorf got out there? …

Luke's suggestion of the piano suite Les heures persanes, though, is unarguably il Tabasco vero … and I'm giving the orchestral version a spin tonight. (Curiously, the orchestral version runs almost ten minutes briefer than Kathryn Stott on the piano.)

Separately: has anyone found (online) his uncle's story of which Le Docteur Fabricius is a musical reflection?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 11:36:22 AM
Easy, fella! Any company could exhaust its capital rapidly, in the indiscriminate chase after listener suggestions (how d'you s'pose so much Dittersdorf got out there? …

Yes, that's true Karl, but it still doesn't change my opinion about the company. EMI has never been a favorite label of mine anyway.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 11:38:27 AM
Separately: has anyone found (online) his uncle's story of which Le Docteur Fabricius is a musical reflection?

Not a trace.  When companies are recording unperformed tone poems based on unpublished books, we should be counting our blessings, I think.   :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 02:08:45 PM
Went ahead and bought Bedford's recording of The Jungle Book. I knew the drawbacks going into this recording (i. e. applause -- it's a live recording), but I'm anxious to hear a different cycle than Zinman's and Segerstam's isn't that well-played, so it will interesting to hear this rare recording:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/koechlinjungle.jpg)

Will let the Koechlin fans know what I think of the recording once I've heard the complete cycle.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 02:19:24 PM
I look forward to your 'review'. Like you,I'm not keen on live recordings.Well not THAT kind. Thank goodness the audience of the famous Boult performance of Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' didn't clap between every single movement.That would be one 'performance' I wouldn't want preserved for posterity!
Like you I'm a bit of a completionist,if there's a composer or artist I like. And that performance does sound as if it has some plus points. Although if it had been me I'd have told them to 'Shurrup'! Politely,of course!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2011, 02:59:04 PM
I look forward to your 'review'. Like you,I'm not keen on live recordings.Well not THAT kind. Thank goodness the audience of the famous Boult performance of Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' didn't clap between every single movement.That would be one 'performance' I wouldn't want preserved for posterity!
Like you I'm a bit of a completionist,if there's a composer or artist I like. And that performance does sound as if it has some plus points. Although if it had been me I'd have told them to 'Shurrup'! Politely,of course!

Yes, I'm not too keen on live recordings either. The initial problem I read with this recording is it was complied from several different live recordings hence why there's an applause after each work, but you would think that they would have edited the applause out? Anyway, no worries, I can simply run up to the next track after the piece has been performed. This said, it will be nice to hear this work in a live context and see how well the orchestra pulls it off. It has received some very favorable reviews, so we shall see.

I'll let you know my thoughts on this recording once it has arrived and I've absorbed it. All the texts in the booklet are in French by the way, so I guess I better study up on my French. :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2011, 05:00:51 AM
Gosh, is it strictly the truth to say the following?

Quote
"The Jungle Book" . . .  is seen as Koechlin's masterwork.

I mean, I hardly know any of his music, so maybe it's true.  But I'd be interested to see the documentation of the claim . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 05:09:12 AM
Gosh, is it strictly the truth to say the following?

I mean, I hardly know any of his music, so maybe it's true.  But I'd be interested to see the documentation of the claim . . . .

Many of the reviews I've read by "professionals" claim The Jungle Book is Koechlin's masterwork.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2011, 05:11:50 AM
Many of the reviews I've read by "professionals" claim The Jungle Book is Koechlin's masterwork.

Okay. Can you link us? I'd be interested to read reviews of the piece.

In all honesty, MI, I almost fear to try The Jungle Book.  And I am content to like the couple of pieces I now know
; )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 05:23:13 AM
Okay. Can you link us? I'd be interested to read reviews of the piece.

In all honesty, MI, I almost fear to try The Jungle Book.  And I am content to like the couple of pieces I now know
; )

Here's Hurwitz's review of Bedford's performance of The Jungle Book, which is the second only complete cycle on recording: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2220 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2220).

Karl, you should definitely listen to this work. I think you will enjoy it. You said you own Zinman's recording, right?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on May 25, 2011, 09:23:05 AM
I just gave a listen to the (much later) re-scored paysages et marines for chamber ensemble (piano, flute, clarinet, 2 violins, viola, cello) on an Accord disc.

I don't know what to make of it. The combination of instruments is nice, but having heard the original, the role of the piano sounds crippled - it might have been better to remove it all together, as if the music really still requires the weight of the instrument, this seems to confirm the preferable qualities of the original, in which the instrument is allowed to perform all manner of wonderful and unrestrained textural effects. In this remake each instrument's material feels painfully limited, and quite a waste of the performer's time to get together and play it. Perhaps for an exotic trio (piano, flute, viola?) it may have worked a little better, but with such pictoral music I am leaning towards the feeling that juggling it between instruments removes the much needed vitality of a single instrumentalist being given a world of nuance to fill as best they can.

Not recommended, I suppose...
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 10:40:29 AM
I just gave a listen to the (much later) re-scored paysages et marines for chamber ensemble (piano, flute, clarinet, 2 violins, viola, cello) on an Accord disc.

I don't know what to make of it. The combination of instruments is nice, but having heard the original, the role of the piano sounds crippled - it might have been better to remove it all together, as if the music really still requires the weight of the instrument, this seems to confirm the preferable qualities of the original, in which the instrument is allowed to perform all manner of wonderful and unrestrained textural effects. In this remake each instrument's material feels painfully limited, and quite a waste of the performer's time to get together and play it. Perhaps for an exotic trio (piano, flute, viola?) it may have worked a little better, but with such pictoral music I am leaning towards the feeling that juggling it between instruments removes the much needed vitality of a single instrumentalist being given a world of nuance to fill as best they can.

Not recommended, I suppose...

My question is who rearranged the composition?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 02:27:08 PM
Apparently, when Koechlin was studying with Faure, he was in the same class as Ravel. Can you imagine these two great minds talking about music? Wow...now that would be something.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on May 25, 2011, 04:54:24 PM
My question is who rearranged the composition?

As far as I can tell it was the composer - I wouldn't blame him for another's mistake :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 04:59:08 PM
As far as I can tell it was the composer - I wouldn't blame him for another's mistake :)

Interesting. I'm generally thrilled with Koechlin's orchestration. He was no slouch. In fact, he wrote a whole series of books on the subject, but there are some works that are fine the way they are and, even though I haven't heard this work, it very well could be one of them.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on May 25, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
Many of the reviews I've read by "professionals" claim The Jungle Book is Koechlin's masterwork.

... i.e. it's the one they've heard of.
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 25, 2011, 05:43:54 PM
... i.e. it's the one they've heard of.

:D :P That sounds about right!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 26, 2011, 02:21:54 AM
Apart from the Disney cartoon!!! Although I must admit to having a certain fondness for it,true Kipling it is not!
If you want the bear necessities of Kipling,Koechlin's the Jungle VIP!
'OOBI-DOO!'
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 26, 2011, 03:01:51 AM
May be the only Disney adaptation I like (though not as a substitute for the Ur-text). Louis Prima as the chief ourang-utan was an inspired bit of casting.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: jowcol on May 26, 2011, 03:48:14 AM
? …

Luke's suggestion of the piano suite Les heures persanes, though, is unarguably il Tabasco vero … and I'm giving the orchestral version a spin tonight. (Curiously, the orchestral version runs almost ten minutes briefer than Kathryn Stott on the piano.)

To be honest, I didn't care for the Orchestral version of the Persian Hours nearly as much as the piano one.  And I'm definitely a fan of his orchestral works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 26, 2011, 04:28:36 AM
Yes, as a piano suite it has a specific character (and a compelling character, as I find it). As an orchestration . . . it is perhaps faceless exotica.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2011, 07:00:23 AM
To be honest, I didn't care for the Orchestral version of the Persian Hours nearly as much as the piano one.  And I'm definitely a fan of his orchestral works.

I agree the orchestrated version of The Persian Hours isn't as distinctive as his other orchestral works. This is another case where I think perhaps the composer should leave things alone, but The Persian Hours does have some fine moments of sonic tapestry.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 26, 2011, 11:28:19 AM
I'm really looking forward to examining The Jungle Book (with the Bedford recording I've got coming) under a pair of different lenses as I've become accustomed to Zinman's reading for awhile now.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 27, 2011, 01:58:51 PM
I'm still waiting on the Bedford Jungle Book to arrive. In the meantime, here's an excerpt from this cycle and the piece is called The Mediation of Purun Bhagat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims&feature=BFa&list=PLD542D3E9E8843E53&index=6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims&feature=BFa&list=PLD542D3E9E8843E53&index=6)


P.S. Can anybody help with me these YouTube videos? I already have Flash uploaded on my computer and I have tried to insert this video using the flash button, but it won't do anything. Please help! Thanks.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2011, 12:47:51 AM
I'm still waiting on the Bedford Jungle Book to arrive. In the meantime, here's an excerpt from this cycle and the piece is called The Mediation of Purun Bhagat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims&feature=BFa&list=PLD542D3E9E8843E53&index=6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAy-pMCJims&feature=BFa&list=PLD542D3E9E8843E53&index=6)


P.S. Can anybody help with me these YouTube videos? I already have Flash uploaded on my computer and I have tried to insert this video using the flash button, but it won't do anything. Please help! Thanks.


This is the code (and for visibility's sake I have replaced the square brackets around [flash]http://and[/flash]). You have to remove watch? and replace it with a /. The = has to go too.


{flash=640,390}http://www.youtube.com/v/OAy-pMCJims{/flash}


I found the correct height and width by right-clicking on the YouTube vid and looking at the embedding code.




http://www.youtube.com/v/OAy-pMCJims
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2011, 06:18:54 AM
Thanks so much Johan! I appreciate it!

Now let me try!

http://www.youtube.com/v/ctPTaigcRTE
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2011, 06:23:36 AM
YES! It worked finally! Thanks again, Johan!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on May 28, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
Ahh, with your avatar alongside that post I envisaged the elderly Koechlin trying to get to grips with the complexities of forum markup code :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2011, 11:59:46 AM

 YES! It worked finally! Thanks again, Johan!

 
 You're welcome, MI. It took me some figuring out, but I like solving problems!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on May 28, 2011, 03:14:48 PM
I agree the orchestrated version of The Persian Hours isn't as distinctive as his other orchestral works.

And yet, musically, I think it a finer accomplishment than Fabricius . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2011, 06:27:12 PM
And yet, musically, I think it a finer accomplishment than Fabricius . . . .

The Jungle Book (the complete cycle), Le buisson ardent, Chant funebre a la memoire des jeunes femmes defuntes, and Vers la Voûte étoilée are my favorite works by Koechlin right now. I do like Le Docteur Fabricius though and think it has some absolute gorgeous moments that help redeem the work for me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 28, 2011, 07:20:57 PM
Now:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/koechlinjungle.jpg)

This is a great performance so far! I'm on Les Bandar-Log right now and it's a played with great authority. Prior to this work, I heard The Law of the Jungle and this is taken a little bit faster than Zinman, but is still effective and well-performed. Next up will be the Three Poems. Iris Vermillion reprises her role on soprano.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 29, 2011, 07:40:26 AM
More Koechlin videos:

Le buisson ardent

http://www.youtube.com/v/zdSqHvtT03E

I prefer Holliger's recording on Hanssler, but Segerstam's is adequately performed and will give listeners at least a glimpse of the kind of depth this work possesses. This is one of my favorite Koechlin works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 30, 2011, 07:26:05 AM
Everything I have of Koechlin I have liked. His music is in fact very easy to like which makes his neglect a bit strange. Maybe the fact that it does not leave you pondering nor humming the tunes means he pleases neither end of the spectrum.

I find his songs and chamber works especially pleasing.

Yes, I agree that Koechlin is very easy to like, but his neglect is unjust. He's yet another example of a composer being pushed out of the way to make room for the more well-known composers. I have turned several people onto Koechlin's music, in particular, a young composer friend who simply adores the music. Now, he can cherish his music for the rest of his life and will probably introduce Koechlin to people who don't know about him, thus, creating ripple effect. I feel that I've done my job here. I can only talk about this work or that work so much and describe it the best way I can, but the reality is Koechlin's music speaks for itself as so many great composer's music does. People don't need to analyze it to death. It is music that one simply lets wash over them. Music they can escape with. Not many composers have left me with this kind of feeling, which is why Koechlin has become one of my absolute favorite composers. It took a year or so to come back to his music and I'm glad I did. Now, I'm just one sick puppy. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 02, 2011, 06:48:55 AM
I am familiar with Koechlin to a point, but do not own any recordings. From what I've heard I have really enjoyed. What would be a great recording, almost sort of an introductory recording to Koechilin's works.
I have a habit of starting with orchestral pieces and moving to chamber works later when I first discover a composer, if that helps in your recommendations.

Thanks in advance, friends.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2011, 05:08:30 PM
I am familiar with Koechlin to a point, but do not own any recordings. From what I've heard I have really enjoyed. What would be a great recording, almost sort of an introductory recording to Koechilin's works.
I have a habit of starting with orchestral pieces and moving to chamber works later when I first discover a composer, if that helps in your recommendations.

Thanks in advance, friends.

Since Koechlin's sound-world is unique and multifaceted, I would recommend starting with The Jungle Book. I would go with the complete cycle with David Zinman and the Berlin Radio Symphony Orch. on RCA. It's a 2-CD set, but it is also out-of-print, so see if you can't track down a copy on the used market. From here, I would then explore the Hanssler Classic recordings with Holliger and the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. Happy listening.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2011, 05:35:14 PM
but his writing for the orchestra is above average, I think.

???

Could you please elaborate on this?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2011, 05:53:03 PM
Well, I think I said what I wanted, in that I think he understands orchestral color so that he can create beautiful effects with how he combines the instruments, and what registers he uses with his placement of the various notes of a chord.   A chord that to begin with is somewhat undefined in many instances.  And his colors will shift, similar to a kaleidoscope, the chord moves subtly across different groups of instruments and slowly a new color emerges - it is all very finely done and it is a skill that not all composers exhibit.

I endorse this message. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 02, 2011, 06:08:31 PM
Great! Thank you for the responses...only been on these forums for several days and my wish list on Amazon.com has never contained so many items! (which i mainly use to remind myself of recordings to checkout)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2011, 06:11:23 PM
Great! Thank you for the responses...only been on these forums for several days and my wish list on Amazon.com has never contained so many items! (which i mainly use to remind myself of recordings to checkout)

You're welcome. Koechlin has been a major breakthrough for me this year even though I've probably been listening to his music for 2 years or so. His music never connected with me until recently.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 03, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
Well, I think I said what I wanted, in that I think he understands orchestral color so that he can create beautiful effects with how he combines the instruments, and what registers he uses with his placement of the various notes of a chord.   A chord that to begin with is somewhat undefined in many instances.  And his colors will shift, similar to a kaleidoscope, the chord moves subtly across different groups of instruments and slowly a new color emerges - it is all very finely done and it is a skill that not all composers exhibit.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/Applause.gif)

I stole this applause from Sgt. Rock.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 03, 2011, 06:17:35 AM
Seems I'm getting a lot of applause today.

Thanks!  I know it won't last ...

 :D

Yes, anytime you champion the music of an unknown composer you will get an applause from me.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
Glad to see this thread is still going.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 05:48:56 PM
Glad to see this thread is still going.

I think the only thing for people to do now is listen and absorb the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2011, 07:32:03 PM
Got my first disc today...



Beautiful, transcendent, at times intense
"La Révolte. Choral, 'Aus tiefer Noth", track 11, from Le Docteur Fabricius sent chills down my spine, while "La Nature, la Vie, l'Espoir", track 13, paints the most tranquil of images.
The music here never feels rushed, not referring to tempo, but to the progression of the overall piece, of the melodies...if that makes any sense.   ;D
This is some serious music, absolutely loving this. 

"The Jungle Book" is on it's way!!

Thanks again for the recommendations.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 07:39:17 PM
Got my first disc today...



Beautiful, transcendent, at times intense
"La Révolte. Choral, 'Aus tiefer Noth", track 11, from Le Docteur Fabricius sent chills down my spine, while "La Nature, la Vie, l'Espoir", track 13, paints the most tranquil of images.
The music here never feels rushed, not referring to tempo, but to the progression of the overall piece, of the melodies...if that makes any sense.   ;D
This is some serious music, absolutely loving this. 

"The Jungle Book" is on it's way!!

Thanks again for the recommendations.

I'm glad you enjoyed this recording as much as I have. I know sometimes somebody who is enthusiastic about a composer doesn't always mean other people will agree, but it's always nice to hear people enjoy the music that I love and to get their perspectives of it. I'm anxious to hear your impressions of The Jungle Book once you have heard it.

The more you listen to Koechlin, the more the depth of the music begins to reveal itself. There are many layers and textures to explore in his music that I could get lost on one work for weeks and come to think of it, I have. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed this recording as much as I have. I know sometimes somebody who is enthusiastic about a composer doesn't always mean other people will agree, but it's always nice to hear people enjoy the music that I love and to get their perspectives of it. I'm anxious to hear your impressions of The Jungle Book once you have heard it.

The more you listen to Koechlin, the more the depth of the music begins to reveal itself. There are many layers and textures to explore in his music that I could get lost on one work for weeks and come to think of it, I have. :)

Agreed, each listen is different, and better.
was thinking of this CD for after "Jungle", enjoying the orchestral pieces right now, maybe move to chamber/piano later on...


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 07:56:13 PM
Agreed, each listen is different, and better.
was thinking of this CD for after "Jungle", enjoying the orchestral pieces right now, maybe move to chamber/piano later on...



That's a pretty mediocre recording. In fact, after hearing the Holliger recordings. I'm actually quite disappointed with Segerstam's conducting on his recordings. Le buisson ardent isn't very well played and the sound quality leaves much desired. May I suggest another Holliger recording for you:



Though you get another performance of La course de printemps, which is incredibly played, you get one of my favorite Koechlin compositions: Le buisson ardent. This work, made up of two parts, is a mesmerizing work full of so much lyricism and color.

I'm not sure how you feel about vocal/choral works with orchestra, but Koechlin's writing in this realm is also as unique and wonderful as his purely orchestral works. Checkout this 2-CD set sometime:

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 08:27:18 PM
Great! You were right about the first recommendation, so I will take note of your choices.

Yes, Koechlin's music, like wine, only gets better with age.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2011, 08:28:07 PM
You were right about the first CD, so I will take note of these new recommendations...thanks again, MI.
I'll keep you updated on my Koechlin travels.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2011, 08:29:48 PM
Yes, Koechlin's music, like wine, only gets better with age.

Speaking of wine, I may have had too much which explains my problems with quoting all night.  :P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 08:33:00 PM
Speaking of wine, I may have had too much which explains my problems with quoting all night.  :P

 ??? :P :D

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 04, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
You were right about the first CD, so I will take note of these new recommendations...thanks again, MI.
I'll keep you updated on my Koechlin travels.

You're welcome. Enjoy the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2011, 05:11:26 PM
Time to revive this thread and let it come back towards the top. I simply can't have this thread being buried again.

I still have not received an email from Hanssler Classic. I hate to say it but it looks like the Koechlin project is now dead. :'( Well now I hope his music is taken up by Tortelier. Man, I can just imagine what this conductor can do with this music. He has such an incredible ear for French music.

Speaking of Y. P. Tortelier, there is a recording of Florent Schmitt coming out in a month or so. He conducted the Sao Paulo Symphony Orchestra in this recording. I simply can't wait to hear this recording.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 07, 2011, 09:12:45 PM
Time to revive this thread and let it come back towards the top. I simply can't have this thread being buried again.

I still have not received an email from Hanssler Classic. I hate to say it but it looks like the Koechlin project is now dead. :'( Well now I hope his music is taken up by Tortelier. Man, I can just imagine what this conductor can do with this music. He has such an incredible ear for French music.

Speaking of Y. P. Tortelier, there is a recording of Florent Schmitt coming out in a month or so. He conducted the Sao Paulo Symphony Orchestra in this recording. I simply can't wait to hear this recording.

I'll help to keep this thread on top.
Just received this today...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/94/fe/f8bc9330dca05108da273010.L.jpg)

Only listened to "Three Poems" so far, astonishingly beautiful, great vocal writing, making me anxious for his Vocal Works with Orchestra disc.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 07, 2011, 09:14:49 PM
I'll help to keep this thread on top.
Just received this today...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/94/fe/f8bc9330dca05108da273010.L.jpg)

Only listened to "Three Poems" so far, astonishingly beautiful, great vocal writing, making me anxious for his Vocal Works with Orchestra disc.

It has been brought to my attention that I just post the same thing over and over again, so all I will say is I'm glad you're enjoying the music. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
I haven't noticed you post the same thing over and over again.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 11:44:54 AM
I haven't noticed you post the same thing over and over again.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 08, 2011, 01:25:26 PM
It has been brought to my attention that I just post the same thing over and over again, so all I will say is I'm glad you're enjoying the music. :)

I don't see a problem, keep posting MI!!!!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 10, 2011, 05:57:12 PM
I don't see a problem, keep posting MI!!!!

I don't see a problem anymore either. Yes, on with the Koechlin!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 05, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
Time to resurrect this thread.

I was listening to Le buisson ardent: Parts I & II (w/ Holliger and the Stuttgart Radio Symphony) the other day and I have say that this is just a masterpiece of Impressionism. The second part in particular has some of the most gorgeous sonorities I've heard. I love the way it climaxes at the end and just kind of fades out and the rest of the piece is almost in dead silence. Absolutely beautiful.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 05, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
Time to resurrect this thread.

I was listening to Le buisson ardent: Parts I & II (w/ Holliger and the Stuttgart Radio Symphony) the other day and I have say that this is just a masterpiece of Impressionism. The second part in particular has some of the most gorgeous sonorities I've heard. I love the way it climaxes at the end and just kind of fades out and the rest of the piece is almost in dead silence. Absolutely beautiful.

Hey MI, recently purchased this...



I have yet to hear the piano version, but this orchestral version showcases Koechlin's strength in composing for soft dynamics. You're description of Le buisson fading out in dead silence reminded me of Les Heures persanes.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 05, 2011, 05:42:47 PM
Hey MI, recently purchased this...



I have yet to hear the piano version, but this orchestral version showcases Koechlin's strength in composing for soft dynamics. You're description of Le buisson fading out in dead silence reminded me of Les Heures persanes.

Greg, that's an excellent recording. Much better played than Segerstam's on Marco Polo. Holliger understands this score very well and while I think The Persian Hours isn't a complete success from a compositional standpoint, it does have many luminous moments to keep one interested.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 02:42:33 AM
Greg, that's an excellent recording. Much better played than Segerstam's on Marco Polo. Holliger understands this score very well and while I think The Persian Hours isn't a complete success from a compositional standpoint . . . .

What impairs its success, MI? Do you mind elaborating?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2011, 06:44:07 AM

What impairs its success, MI? Do you mind elaborating?

Well Karl, The Persian Hours is a very atmospheric work, so it takes a conductor who understands this in order for it to be pulled off successfully. I think the problem with Segerstam's reading is he's digging for some kind of aggression when there's no aggression to be found whereas Holliger walked a taut line and approached all of the orchestral shimmers and colors with a better understanding of the score.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 06:48:46 AM
Interesting . . . but of course, Les heures persanes is originally a piano piece, so I don't know that as a composition its success depends on the matters you mention.  Actually, I find myself entirely satisfied with it compositionally (probably better satisfied than with Fabricius, really, like that piece though I do) . . . which is why I wondered what it was you find unsuccessful about it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2011, 06:59:08 AM
Interesting . . . but of course, Les heures persanes is originally a piano piece, so I don't know that as a composition its success depends on the matters you mention.  Actually, I find myself entirely satisfied with it compositionally (probably better satisfied than with Fabricius, really, like that piece though I do) . . . which is why I wondered what it was you find unsuccessful about it.

For me, The Persian Hours doesn't stand up next to works like Le buisson ardent, Vers la Voûte étoilée, or The Jungle Book cycle for the simple fact that I think it doesn't have enough emotional weight or contrasts in it to make it a successful work. Le Docteur Fabricius is similar in style to Persian Hours, but contains many more gorgeous moments that take it from what sounds like, at times, pure note-spinning, to mystical lyricism.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Thanks, I think I appreciate better now why you don't care as much for Les heures persanes as for other pieces.  I agree of course that, overall, the emotional tone of the suite is muted; it is not a piece of dramatic contrasts.  For me, though, that is simply part of this work's character, rather than any point of inferiority.

Thanks for indulging my questions!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 07:16:10 AM
I consider that quality ("the emotional tone of the suite is muted") of Les heures persanes to be precisely what attracts me to the piece.

Yes, I find that a signal virtue in the work, too.

By me, though, I think I do prefer the piano solo version.  Nonetheless, I am apt to load up both to the player
: )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lethevich on July 06, 2011, 07:27:52 AM
Ooh, we're doing favourites? I'm sure cilgwyn might want to join in too. The pieces that grab me the most at the moment are La Course de printemps from the Jungle Book, Les Heures persanes in its original piano version, Paysages et Marines in piano garb (the ensemble version loses the stark beauty and gains a lot of hooting), and Le Buisson ardent. At this time I don't view the Jungle Book as an essential integral, given how I prefer some unrelated pieces, although the way it's packaged is an easy way to buy a lot the composer's music in a tidy package.

It's a mystery why his symphonies are so scarcely recorded - usually record labels love the "integral" factor of a symphony. A single piece that will fill half a disc or more without any need of explanation to the prospective buyer.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 07:30:46 AM
. . . gains a lot of hooting . . . .

You say that like it's a bad thing . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 07:38:59 AM
And, thanks, Sara, for reiterating your liking Paysages et marines . . . I remember you had spoken well of it, but it fell off the radar.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2011, 07:40:50 AM
MI, I have yet to make my way to Vers la Voûte étoilée . . . although I suffer a sort of waking nightmare that, if I check my posts on the WAYLT thread, I'll find that I did indeed once listen to it : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 06, 2011, 09:31:25 AM
I'm enjoying the Koechlin thread-love today!
Since I originally brought it up, and I see more praise for the piece, I guess I owe it to myself, and to Mr. Koechlin himself, to check out the piano version, how about this version...



Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2011, 05:06:22 PM
Thanks, I think I appreciate better now why you don't care as much for Les heures persanes as for other pieces.  I agree of course that, overall, the emotional tone of the suite is muted; it is not a piece of dramatic contrasts.  For me, though, that is simply part of this work's character, rather than any point of inferiority.

Thanks for indulging my questions!


Yes, I suppose apart of the charm of The Persian Hours is it's atmospheric meanderings. There is one part of this work that I love, but I forgot what the movement is, so I guess its time to revisit it at some point.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2011, 05:10:58 PM
MI, I have yet to make my way to Vers la Voûte étoilée . . . although I suffer a sort of waking nightmare that, if I check my posts on the WAYLT thread, I'll find that I did indeed once listen to it : )

Karl, you've got to hear Vers la Voûte étoilée. It's a condensed orchestral work only lasting around 11 or 12 minutes, but there is so much beauty in that passes by that it seems like it's a shorter work than it actually is. The ending climax is remarkable as Koechlin lets the brass section rip right through the orchestral texture. One of my favorite Koechlin works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2011, 03:05:28 AM
I'm enjoying the Koechlin thread-love today!
Since I originally brought it up, and I see more praise for the piece, I guess I owe it to myself, and to Mr. Koechlin himself, to check out the piano version, how about this version...


That's the one I've got, Greg . . . I've no other version to compare it to, to be sure . . . but I've listened to it some five or six times now, and it never stales for me.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2011, 03:07:21 AM
Karl, you've got to hear Vers la Voûte étoilée. It's a condensed orchestral work only lasting around 11 or 12 minutes, but there is so much beauty in that passes by that it seems like it's a shorter work than it actually is. The ending climax is remarkable as Koechlin lets the brass section rip right through the orchestral texture. One of my favorite Koechlin works.

Will get to it soon, MI . . . fact is, the Fabricius I've got is a burn that an old friend sent, and I like it so well I've ordered in a legit copy.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2011, 03:51:08 AM
You know you love it when you pay for it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 07, 2011, 06:27:42 AM
Will get to it soon, MI . . . fact is, the Fabricius I've got is a burn that an old friend sent, and I like it so well I've ordered in a legit copy.

Excellent, Karl. The whole Hanssler series is worth owning IMHO.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2011, 11:15:16 AM
I have just bought a brand new dolby cassette deck!!!  If anyone wants me to 'burn' a cassette for them please feel free to contact me via smoke signals.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2011, 11:21:02 AM
By the way,I've just been leafing through a 1992 edition of the 'Penguin guide to Compact discs & Cassettes',which I keep near the 'throne',and the only Koechlin listed is the Dorati recording of 'Les Bandar-log' (emi,coupled with Boulez & Messiaen). A 1964 recording.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2011, 08:01:55 PM
By the way,I've just been leafing through a 1992 edition of the 'Penguin guide to Compact discs & Cassettes',which I keep near the 'throne',and the only Koechlin listed is the Dorati recording of 'Les Bandar-log' (emi,coupled with Boulez & Messiaen). A 1964 recording.

Yeah only in the last 15 years or so have we seen any kind influx in Koechlin recordings. This is unfortunate that his music has been neglected for so long, but this shouldn't come as a shock to anyone who enjoys music from composers on the fringes. I mean look how long we had to wait for a Havergal Brian recording of the Gothic or even Langgaard's opera Antikrist. What is disappointing is it doesn't appear that Hanssler will continue their Holliger-led Koechlin orchestral series. If something comes out I'm going to be surprised.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2011, 05:05:09 AM
It seems strange that 'Les Bandar-log' was deemed the only part of Koechlin's 'Jungle Book' cycle 'worth' (?) recording! Are you aware of any recording or 'portions' of the cycle available prior to the Marco Polo release? Not even an....er,Aries pirate recording?!!!
Incidentally,1984 was a more substantial year for Koechlin,recording wise,with the Penguin guide listing the emi recording of the 'Seven Stars Symphony' & the 'Ballade'. Well done to emi & Myrat for that one.I say. (But it's quite obviously not a top recommendation now). Funny,you get to the 1992 guide & you somehow think there's going to be more NOT less.
One more observation. There's an odd fascination in combing through those old cd/cassette/Lp guides,but the tone of some of the reviews is incredibly pompous.
The style of the writing is often the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a 1930's publication & often incredibly condescending. Sometimes you finish a review and think,why can't they just admit they think it's crap instead of damning it with faint praise.
I hope you find the 'effect' of my review 'somewhat pleasing'?
What a bunch of stiffs! (The Pelican guide critics NOT forum users!)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2011, 07:37:17 AM
I'm still surprised that RCA hasn't reissued their Koechlin recordings. I mean, yes, you can buy that 2-CD set, but not everybody wants that. I wish they would reissue them with their original artwork and booklets. I have Zinman's, so only lack the Judd performance of the Seven Stars Symphony.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
BREAKING NEWS:

I have found out through the main member of the Charles Koechlin page on Facebook that he has official news from Hanssler that they will continue their series with the next recording due out in 2012. This next disc will focus on Koechlin orchestrations of Debussy, Schubert, Faure, and some others. I can only hope this will signal more recordings of his original compositions. I do hope it is Holliger conducting, but perhaps this is asking too much?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2011, 06:46:04 AM
BREAKING NEWS:

I have found out through the main member of the Charles Koechlin page on Facebook that he has official news from Hanssler that they will continue their series with the next recording due out in 2012. This next disc will focus on Koechlin orchestrations of Debussy, Schubert, Faure, and some others. I can only hope this will more recordings of his original compositions. I do hope it is Holliger conducting, but perhaps this is asking too much?

Sounds good, thanks for the update, MI.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 08:14:49 AM
Sounds good, thanks for the update, MI.

Well, you know, I feel about Koechlin the same way Johan feels about Havergal Brian. He is a composer whose music speaks directly to me and once I have felt his music for the first time there was no turning back. There aren't many composers whose music I truly love, but Koechlin is one of those I have a deep kinship with, which is why I obsessively listen to the same works over and over again. There's just so much mystique about who he was as a composer, and as a person, that his music leaves so many questions unanswered. Obviously, aesthetically, Koechlin is very different from say Brian or Ives, but they share one common feature: they composed a lot of music in the face of total neglect.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2011, 08:37:57 AM
Well, you know, I feel about Koechlin the same way Johan feels about Havergal Brian. He is a composer whose music speaks directly to me and once I have felt his music for the first time there was no turning back. There aren't many composers whose music I truly love, but Koechlin is one of those I have a deep kinship with, which is why I obsessively listen to the same works over and over again. There's just so much mystique about who he was as a composer, and as a person, that his music leaves so many questions unanswered. Obviously, aesthetically, Koechlin is very different from say Brian or Ives, but they share one common feature: they composed a lot of music in the face of total neglect.

You've helped me explore Koechlin's music, and I couldn't thank you enough. A little more time with some of my new Koechlin recordings and I may get to the point you're at with him.
What are some of the orchestrations he has done?

Just picked up a few Chamber works of Koechlin, absolutely lovely...


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 08:49:03 AM
You've helped me explore Koechlin's music, and I couldn't thank you enough. A little more time with some of my new Koechlin recordings and I may get to the point you're at with him.
What are some of the orchestrations he has done?

Just picked up a few Chamber works of Koechlin, absolutely lovely...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000HT3P6K.01.L.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001PVWXGM.01.L.jpg)

No need to thank me, Greg. I was merely a guiding hand. If I didn't feel confident or believed in his music enough I wouldn't be talking about him right now. His music won't appeal to everybody, which is an understatement within itself. His music will continue to be neglected by the classical establishment and I'm perfectly okay with that. Critics can say what they want to about his music, it doesn't matter to me just like what people have said negatively about Havergal Brian or Ives doesn't matter. These composers poured their hearts and souls into their music. They knew their music couldn't have stood a chance in the crowd of popular taste, but, like I said, they composed their music anyway because they felt it was their moral obligation to do so. This, within itself, is commendable.

Re: Koechlin orchestrations

From Wikipedia:

Koechlin orchestrated several pieces by other composers. In addition to the Fauré Pelléas et Mélisande suite mentioned above he orchestrated the bulk of Claude Debussy's 'legende dansée' Khamma under the composer's direction, from the piano score [1], and orchestrated Cole Porter's ballet Within the Quota; other works he transcribed include Schubert's Wanderer Fantasie and Chabrier's Bourrée Fantasque.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2011, 09:18:49 AM
No need to thank me, Greg. I was merely a guiding hand. If I didn't feel confident or believed in his music enough I wouldn't be talking about him right now. His music won't appeal to everybody, which is an understatement within itself. His music will continue to be neglected by the classical establishment and I'm perfectly okay with that. Critics can say what they want to about his music, it doesn't matter to me just like what people have said negatively about Havergal Brian or Ives doesn't matter. These composers poured their hearts and souls into their music. They knew their music couldn't have stood a chance in the crowd of popular taste, but, like I said, they composed their music anyway because they felt it was their moral obligation to do so. This, within itself, is commendable.

Re: Koechlin orchestrations

From Wikipedia:

Koechlin orchestrated several pieces by other composers. In addition to the Fauré Pelléas et Mélisande suite mentioned above he orchestrated the bulk of Claude Debussy's 'legende dansée' Khamma under the composer's direction, from the piano score [1], and orchestrated Cole Porter's ballet Within the Quota; other works he transcribed include Schubert's Wanderer Fantasie and Chabrier's Bourrée Fantasque.

Great, thanks for the info, MI.  ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 11:03:36 AM
Great, thanks for the info, MI.  ;D

You're welcome, Greg. I hope you continue to enjoy Koechlin's music. By the way, do you own all of the orchestral recordings now with Holliger/Stuttgart Radio Symphony on Hanssler?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2011, 06:43:35 PM
You're welcome, Greg. I hope you continue to enjoy Koechlin's music. By the way, do you own all of the orchestral recordings now with Holliger/Stuttgart Radio Symphony on Hanssler?

Sorry for the delayed response,
I have....

-Les Heures persanes op. 65
-Le Docteur Fabricius; Vers la Voûte étoilée
-La course de printemps, Op. 95; Le buisson ardent, Op. 203 & 171
-Vocal works with orchestra

....all with Holliger/Stuttgart Radio Symphony

then The Jungle Book with Zinman on RCA
and the two Chamber discs I mentioned in the previous post.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 07:16:22 PM
Sorry for the delayed response,
I have....

-Les Heures persanes op. 65
-Le Docteur Fabricius; Vers la Voûte étoilée
-La course de printemps, Op. 95; Le buisson ardent, Op. 203 & 171
-Vocal works with orchestra

....all with Holliger/Stuttgart Radio Symphony

then The Jungle Book with Zinman on RCA
and the two Chamber discs I mentioned in the previous post.

The only thing I see missing is this wonderful recording...

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2011, 07:28:42 PM
The only thing I see missing is this wonderful recording...



Very cool, I'm sure I'll be checking it out very soon.
I noticed there were seperate discs of Koechlin chamber music, one for Oboe, one for Clarinet and another for Flute. Are you familiar with any of these discs, MI?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 07:39:29 PM
Very cool, I'm sure I'll be checking it out very soon.
I noticed there were seperate discs of Koechlin chamber music, one for Oboe, one for Clarinet and another for Flute. Are you familiar with any of these discs, MI?

Yes, I don't own the one for oboe, but I own the ones for clarinet and flute on Hanssler and also one for saxophone on Chandos. All are beautiful recordings. I'm usually not one for chamber music, but this music is quite charming. I think, however, that Koechlin's true compositional voice came through his orchestral works. When Koechlin has the full orchestral palette, his range is quite broad. I think of Koechlin like a sonic painter. All pieces start from a different canvas, but, over time, they build up to full-blown tapestries of sound. Each canvas has it's own distinct character.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 07:55:48 AM
Well, you know, I feel about Koechlin the same way Johan feels about Havergal Brian. He is a composer whose music speaks directly to me and once I have felt his music for the first time there was no turning back.  (...)  Obviously, aesthetically, Koechlin is very different from say Brian or Ives, but they share one common feature: they composed a lot of music in the face of total neglect.


Yes, Koechlin is your Brian, that's clear. We can speculate what sort of temperament you must have to identify so strongly with a given composer. The last two days I have been in the company of many Brianites: if there are any similarities between us, they must lie deep, because outwardly we're all very different.



Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 08:03:49 AM

Yes, Koechlin is your Brian, that's clear. We can speculate what sort of temperament you must have to identify so strongly with a given composer. The last two days I have been in the company of many Brianites: if there are any similarities between us, they must lie deep, because outwardly we're all very different.

I have met a few Koechlin fans online. The person who runs the Facebook fan page is a very knowledgeable person that I've been learning a great deal from. It's also nice to meet people who are devoted to Brian or Ives, because I think these composers have written some of the most powerful music in the 20th Century.

But to actually witness your favorite composer's music in person brings your appreciation to a whole new level I'm sure. I wish I could have been there for Brian Gothic performance. I can't even imagine what you and the other GMG members must have felt during this performance. Words simply can't describe this kind of experience.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:08:07 AM
I have met a few Koechlin fans online. The person who runs the Facebook fan page is a very knowledgeable person that I've been learning a great deal from. It's also nice to meet people who are devoted to Brian or Ives, because I think these composers have written some of the most powerful music in the 20th Century.

But to actually witness your favorite composer's music in person brings your appreciation to a whole new level I'm sure. I wish I could have been there for Brian Gothic performance. I can't even imagine what you and the other GMG members must have felt during this performance. Words simply can't describe this kind of experience.


We're all busy trying, as you will have noticed by the HB thread going berserk the past 48 hours... To be very honest, I am still so moved by the experience that I can even choke up just thinking about it. That's real love for you!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 08:13:26 AM

We're all busy trying, as you will have noticed by the HB thread going berserk the past 48 hours... To be very honest, I am still so moved by the experience that I can even choke up just thinking about it. That's real love for you!

Yes, and that's what I expected this performance would do for you, Johan. I can't even imagine what you felt through the performance especially seeing that huge orchestra and those huge walls of choirs.

I would really love to see Koechlin's The Jungle Book live, but I'm afraid the only chance I would have to see it is if I moved to France. :P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 19, 2011, 08:16:57 AM
Is this the same Holliger from the Koechlin recordings?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2011/07/19/138507570/heinz-holligers-soulful-oboe
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:19:27 AM
Yes, and that's what I expected this performance would do for you, Johan. I can't even imagine what you felt through the performance especially seeing that huge orchestra and those huge walls of choirs.

I would really love to see Koechlin's The Jungle Book live, but I'm afraid the only chance I would have to see it is if I moved to France. :P


I'll tell you what I felt, but only now can express. When the shattering climax of the third movement was reached, the lights went on, illuminating the choirs. It is a cataclysmic moment, the choirs stood up, the soloists entered from two sides slowly walking to the front of the stage - it was as if the giant chords at that moment had woken humanity itself.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 08:26:34 AM
Is this the same Holliger from the Koechlin recordings?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2011/07/19/138507570/heinz-holligers-soulful-oboe

Yes, that's him, Greg. Holliger was, in his career, first and foremost an oboist. He later turned to composing and conducting.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 09:26:01 AM

I'll tell you what I felt, but only now can express. When the shattering climax of the third movement was reached, the lights went on, illuminating the choirs. It is a cataclysmic moment, the choirs stood up, the soloists entered from two sides slowly walking to the front of the stage - it was as if the giant chords at that moment had woken humanity itself.

It sounds like an amazing night, Johan.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 13, 2011, 04:45:25 AM
I would really love to see Koechlin's The Jungle Book live, but I'm afraid the only chance I would have to see it is if I moved to France. :P
Actually, this would be a bad idea. While having tons of great composer, France sucks at playing them. Koechlin is probably played more often in Germany. From what I know, Le livre de la jungle has been played once in Paris in the last ten or twenty years, by the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. The Orchestre de Paris has only played Koechlin once, it was La Course de Printemps in 94, conducted by Segerstam.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Joaquimhock on August 14, 2011, 12:10:54 AM
Actually, this would be a bad idea. While having tons of great composer, France sucks at playing them. Koechlin is probably played more often in Germany. From what I know, Le livre de la jungle has been played once in Paris in the last ten or twenty years, by the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. The Orchestre de Paris has only played Koechlin once, it was La Course de Printemps in 94, conducted by Segerstam.

The direct opposite of UK. British composers are played in UK but not (much) abroad and French composers are played abroad and not much in France (except Debussy, Fauré and Ravel). Even Berlioz, apart from the Symphonie Fantastique is much more played and loved in UK than in France. Thank you Mr Colin Davis !
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 14, 2011, 06:43:22 AM
Actually, this would be a bad idea. While having tons of great composer, France sucks at playing them.

Tell this to Jean Martinon and he would slap the shit out of you.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 14, 2011, 11:49:34 AM
Tell this to Jean Martinon and he would slap the shit out of you.
Jean Martinon died 35 years ago.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: eyeresist on August 14, 2011, 04:54:26 PM
The direct opposite of UK. British composers are played in UK but not (much) abroad and French composers are played abroad and not much in France (except Debussy, Fauré and Ravel). Even Berlioz, apart from the Symphonie Fantastique is much more played and loved in UK than in France. Thank you Mr Colin Davis !

La France - Land without music? ;)
 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 14, 2011, 05:10:46 PM
Jean Martinon died 35 years ago.

It's a joke. ::)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 17, 2011, 08:39:10 PM
Listening to The Jungle Book after a month hiatus and it's just as magical as I remember it. This is truly, in my estimate, one of the masterpieces of the 20th Century. I would love to be able to hear this in concert. In terms of French music, the Cleveland Orchestra would do well in this music as they have much experience thanks to Boulez. The Montreal Symphony Orchestra would also be excellent. I wonder if somebody can email Nagano and see if he'll do this work? If Nagano agreed to perform the work, then I would be on the first plane to Montreal. :) This music seems right up his alley.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on August 21, 2011, 04:15:43 AM
"Jean Martinon died 35 years ago",
Ouch! A bit of a blooper there.
Keep the droll one liners coming,Mr Bloom.
Most amusing.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 21, 2011, 09:17:57 AM
Some people have serious cognitive issues.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on August 21, 2011, 09:44:33 AM
From bloopers to bloomers!!!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on August 21, 2011, 12:38:28 PM
Koechlin's 'Vers la Voute etoilee' is one of the best discoveries I have made through the forum - a hauntingly beautifull work.  He is among a group of largely unknown French composers whose music I increasingly play.  Others are Sauguet (especially Symphony 1), Ropartz and Tournemire.

By the way John (MI) I think that the VW image on your avatar is my favourite photo of the great man!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 21, 2011, 06:29:36 PM
Koechlin's 'Vers la Voute etoilee' is one of the best discoveries I have made through the forum - a hauntingly beautifull work.  He is among a group of largely unknown French composers whose music I increasingly play.  Others are Sauguet (especially Symphony 1), Ropartz and Tournemire.

By the way John (MI) I think that the VW image on your avatar is my favourite photo of the great man!

Thanks for the comment about my avatar, Jeffrey. It is, indeed, a great picture.

Vers la voûte étoilée is a beautiful work and one my favorite Koechlin compositions, because in the span of 12 minutes we (the listeners) are treated to music that reaches for the cosmos. Another one of my favorite Koechlin compositions, outside of the The Jungle Book, is Le buisson ardent Parts I & II. I count them as one work, but both a quite different from each other and were written many years apart from each other. My understanding is he wrote Part II first and many years later added Part I. Kind of strange how this worked out, but, like I said, I think of it as one work because of the time frame it took him to decide on what he wanted to do with these musical ideas. Le Docteur Fabricius is another interesting work that showcases, yet again, one of Koechlin's favorite instruments: the Ondes Martenot.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on August 22, 2011, 02:46:58 AM
Vers la voûte étoilée and Le Docteur Fabricius are very nice; I shouldn't trade Les heures persanes for either of them, though. (Just me, perhaps.)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 22, 2011, 03:24:38 AM
I know I've mentioned this before, but Koechlin's Piano Quintet Op. 80 is wonderful, I don't see much discussion about it. In fact, there may only be one recording of the piece.




For some reason, I always find a composers chamber works to speak louder in displaying their compositional talents, sort of a final test for me when I explore a new composer.  :)
I know there are discs of Koechlin music for clarinet and oboe, anyone have these discs? Or heard them at least?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 07:30:09 AM
For some reason, I always find a composers chamber works to speak louder in displaying their compositional talents, sort of a final test for me when I explore a new composer.  :)

I know there are discs of Koechlin music for clarinet and oboe, anyone have these discs? Or heard them at least?

I own most of the Koechlin chamber music recordings. I have not heard that disc with his Piano Quintet. As far as the disc with clarinet, it is very nice. I haven't heard, or own, the one for oboe. Koechlin wrote some lovely chamber music like his Epitaph for Jean Harlow a short work (around 3 minutes in duration) for flute, saxophone, and piano, which is one of my favorite chamber works by him. The recording for saxophone and piano on Chandos is quite nice. My honest opinion, though, is Koechlin wrote more compelling orchestral music. As great as his chamber music is, it doesn't offer the kind of palette that his music truly needs.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 22, 2011, 07:40:05 AM
I own most of the Koechlin chamber music recordings. I have not heard that disc with his Piano Quintet. As far as the disc with clarinet, it is very nice. I haven't heard, or own, the one for oboe. Koechlin wrote some lovely chamber music like his Epitaph for Jean Harlow a short work (around 3 minutes in duration) for flute, saxophone, and piano, which is one of my favorite chamber works by him. The recording for saxophone and piano on Chandos is quite nice. My honest opinion, though, is Koechlin wrote more compelling orchestral music. As great as his chamber music is, it doesn't offer the kind of palette that his music truly needs.

Thanks, MI.  :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 07:45:49 AM
Thanks, MI.  :)

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 22, 2011, 11:19:20 AM
I know I've mentioned this before, but Koechlin's Piano Quintet Op. 80 is wonderful, I don't see much discussion about it. In fact, there may only be one recording of the piece.

There are at least three recordings of his Piano Quintet, which is probably Koechlin's masterpiece in chamber music, and maybe even his best work.
The two others recordings of the quintet I know are on Quantum and Cybelia, but have become quite hard to find I think.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
There are at least three recordings of his Piano Quintet, which is probably Koechlin's masterpiece in chamber music, and maybe even his best work.
The two others recordings of the quintet I know are on Quantum and Cybelia, but have become quite hard to find I think.

What are your favorite Koechlin orchestral works?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 22, 2011, 07:09:05 PM
There are at least three recordings of his Piano Quintet, which is probably Koechlin's masterpiece in chamber music, and maybe even his best work.
The two others recordings of the quintet I know are on Quantum and Cybelia, but have become quite hard to find I think.

It is a wonderful piece, Mr. Bloom.

I also picked up a recording of Quintet for flute, harp and string trio, Op. 223, another lovely work.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 07:07:41 AM
A few notes on the symphonic poem Les Bandar-log:

Koechlin was fascinated with Rudyard Kipling's "The Jungle Book", and he composed a cycle of orchestral works based on it. This tone poem is the last composition in the Jungle Book cycle, but it is not merely a depiction of the langur monkeys which Kipling calls the "Bandar-log"; the work is also a scathing parody of the world of contemporary music, including twelve-tone and atonal music. Koechlin made the following analogy with regard to the apes in "Les Bandar-log":

"They think of themselves as creative geniuses, but are really nothing more than vulgar copyists whose only interest is to adopt to the fashion of the day. It is said that there is also something of the kind in the world of the artist."
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 08:20:58 AM
I found this short biography that will give newcomers of Koechlin's music some basic background:

Born into a wealthy family of Alsatian textile magnates, Charles Louis Eugène Koechlin (November 27, 1867 - December 30, 1950) prepared to become an artillery officer but contracted tuberculosis which rendered him unfit for service. While recuperating in Algeria, the music bug hit him and pushed him into the Paris Conservatoire at the relatively late age of 23. He studied counterpoint with one of that institution's great teachers, André Gedalge (who also taught Maurice Ravel, among others) and composition with Jules Massenet and Gabriel Fauré. Fauré provided his compositional ideal.

Early on, Koechlin lived a comfortable life but ran into increasing financial burdens, which compelled him to spend a lot of time as a writer on music theory and as a private teacher. Indeed, during his life, he was probably better known as a theoretician. Furthermore, there was nothing he didn't know about technique. Debussy asked him to orchestrate his ballet Khamma (all but the prelude). He also provided the standard orchestrations for Fauré's Pellés et Mélisande and Emmanuel Chabrier's Bourrée fantasque. Poulenc went to him for lessons in orchestration and form.

Koechlin's music is so various, so eager to try different styles and to move to different inspirations (sometimes in the same piece) that one discerns a singular voice with difficulty. His muse sings as abundantly as Hector Berlioz's, but with a jaw-dropping variety. He excelled in every genre he tried – chamber music, song, ballet, and orchestral, with the exception of the symphony. His symphonies are either sui generis, rather than classical, or orchestrations of earlier pieces. His tone poems on Kipling's Jungle Book, particularly Les bandar-log, run a gamut of contemporary and just-past styles – Impressionism, neo-classicism, 12-tone serialism, and so on. Containing most of these styles, Les bandar-log may have begun in satirical intent, but the humor ultimately has no meanness in it. His Seven Stars Symphony (inspired by his favorites of the silver screen) delights in its unabashed fandom. The Chaplin finale in particular captures the wit of the comedian. Koechlin had a penchant for large-scale works, but his communist sympathies, especially during the Thirties (he never officially joined the Party), also prodded him to produce smaller-scaled and more directly communicative work like the 12 petites pièces très faciles and the 4 nouvelles sonatines, both for piano.

I supposed the oddest thing about Koechlin was his adoration of film stars, particularly a German-French actress, Lilian Harvey (born in England), almost completely forgotten today. He wrote several pieces to her and made his wife (!) write her several times to set up a meeting face to face. Later on, Ginger Rogers, who in her early film career resembled Harvey, also became a favorite.

Koechlin never received all that many performances while he lived, although the top composers in France greatly respected him. It is the modern recording that has allowed us to see why Fauré, Claude Debussy, Darius Milhaud, Albert Roussel, and Manuel de Falla made such a fuss.

[Article taken from Classical.net]
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on August 23, 2011, 08:56:01 AM
. . . the work is also a scathing parody of the world of contemporary music, including twelve-tone and atonal music. Koechlin made the following analogy with regard to the apes in "Les Bandar-log":

"They think of themselves as creative geniuses, but are really nothing more than vulgar copyists whose only interest is to adopt to the fashion of the day. It is said that there is also something of the kind in the world of the artist."

A little snarky, then.  Well, well, it isn't as if I expected Koechlin to be saintly . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 09:08:20 AM
A little snarky, then.  Well, well, it isn't as if I expected Koechlin to be saintly . . . .

Yes, he's snarky, which is why I like him. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on August 23, 2011, 09:16:23 AM
Meh, too easy.  The fact that one is snarky is no virtue of itself.  And the fact that he was snarky about musical fashion — i.e., elements of musical style and practice which have become classic — reflects poorly on him.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on August 23, 2011, 09:20:17 AM
Meh, too easy.  The fact that one is snarky is no virtue of itself. 

True, but the beard should come close.  ;)

For me, Koechlin is of much interest but not by virtue.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 09:24:39 AM
Meh, too easy.  The fact that one is snarky is no virtue of itself.  And the fact that he was snarky about musical fashion — i.e., elements of musical style and practice which have become classic — reflects poorly on him.

I don't think at this juncture it really matters what reflects poorly on him or not. He wasn't exactly tearing up the scene during his time, Karl, but he was admired by his peers and though his music didn't get performed much (and still doesn't), this didn't break his spirit. He continued to compose music in the face of total neglect. I admire him for this. A person with a strong viewpoint goes a lot further than someone who jumps on the bandwagon because it's the "hip" thing to do.

I figured you and Koechlin would have at least have these things in common.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 23, 2011, 12:20:59 PM
What are your favorite Koechlin orchestral works?

Les heures persanes (althought I prefer the piano version), La course de printemps, Le buisson ardent and Les Bandar-log, I think. I like Les eaux vives and the orchestrated Etudes antiques a lot too.
But my favorite piece by Koechlin is not orchestral, it's the fifteen motets in an archaïc style, a beautiful piece for a cappella choir and also his last work.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 12:23:59 PM
But my favorite piece by Koechlin is not orchestral, it's the fifteen motets in an archaïc style, a beautiful piece for a cappella choir and also his last work.

I see that we have a hard time reading. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mr Bloom on August 23, 2011, 01:06:55 PM
Okay. Is there a moment where you actually stop being an asshole, or is it just what you are?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 01:49:12 PM
Okay. Is there a moment where you actually stop being an asshole, or is it just what you are?

I'm still not over your unwillingness to take a joke the first time around. ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 23, 2011, 02:04:29 PM
Mr. Bloom, I'm a joking person. I like to have fun on this forum, but I can understand how it's easy for an outsider to take my jokes as being mean-spirited because on the screen they appear this way. But, in all honesty, I'm not an asshole, in fact, I'm far from it. Sometimes I can be harsh in my opinion, but it's all in good fun here. I'm sorry if you took my jokes as a personal attack on you. This was not my intention at all.

Moving along, it's good to meet another Koechlin fan on here. :D

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: DavidW on August 24, 2011, 04:11:24 AM
but I can understand how it's easy for an outsider to take my jokes as being mean-spirited because on the screen they appear this way.

It's easy for an insider to take your "joking" as mean spirited as well.  That's not actually joking fyi.  A joke is when you tell a humorous story with a punchline.  A joke is not when you act sarcastic or abrasive towards someone.  I'm speaking out because it seems that you inevitably attack new posters, and in doing so give this forum a bad name. 

If you really want to be a gentleman MI you will simply apologize.

Welcome to the forum Mr Bloom, ignore MI.  I hope that you stay, and I welcome you to gmg. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 24, 2011, 06:30:34 AM
It's easy for an insider to take your "joking" as mean spirited as well.  That's not actually joking fyi.  A joke is when you tell a humorous story with a punchline.  A joke is not when you act sarcastic or abrasive towards someone.  I'm speaking out because it seems that you inevitably attack new posters, and in doing so give this forum a bad name. 

If you really want to be a gentleman MI you will simply apologize.

Welcome to the forum Mr Bloom, ignore MI.  I hope that you stay, and I welcome you to gmg. :)

I already apologized, Dave. There are all different types of humor. Mine is sarcastic, but I explained my case to the new poster, which I didn't have to do. I only hope he accepts my apology and if he doesn't, then oh well. :-\
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 05:32:56 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7775122.jpg)

Koechlin Organ Works. Bet you didn't know he had any!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 05:44:10 AM
Hmmm . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 07:30:41 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7775122.jpg)

Koechlin Organ Works. Bet you didn't know he had any!

I did not know Koechlin had wrote solo organ music. I had only thought he wrote a lot of solo piano music. I'm not too interested in the organ works, but I do want to hear the solo piano music at some point and I'll continue with the Hanssler series.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 07:31:52 AM
It doesn't surprise me at all, because he wrote so very much, and because he was French. And I think his musical language would suit organ music very nicely.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 07:40:11 AM
The section Résponse de l'Homme in Le Docteur Fabricius is so ravishingly beautiful that it makes me feel completely at peace with the world. All my worries, fears are washed away by this sumptuous movement.

http://www.youtube.com/v/J2m3hrfeQig

Of course, you can't beat the audio quality of the real thing, but this gives you an idea.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 09:27:43 AM
Really beautiful and representative of the part of Koechlin's work I love most.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 09:39:20 AM
I put on the Hanssler cd of Koechlin's 'Persian Hours' the other night. Pure escapism. What a difference to the usual postcard response.
Marvellous.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 06:58:13 PM
Really beautiful and representative of the part of Koechlin's work I love most.

I endorse this message. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2011, 06:58:48 PM
I put on the Hanssler cd of Koechlin's 'Persian Hours' the other night. Pure escapism. What a difference to the usual postcard response.
Marvellous.

Are you listening to the original solo piano version or the orchestrated version?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Coco on September 02, 2011, 07:32:05 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7775122.jpg)

Koechlin Organ Works. Bet you didn't know he had any!

That looks great — I like the parts for organ in some of the larger works and his music seems suited to the idiom.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 03, 2011, 03:20:30 AM
Are you listening to the original solo piano version or the orchestrated version?

Well, the Hanssler CD would be the orchestration, yes? Or: which pianist has recorded the piece for the Hanssler label, d'you know, MI?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 04:05:14 AM
Michael Korstick. Vol 2 of the Hanssler Piano works series is 'Persian Hours' (I have food on the stove so I'm not going to try and spell the French,just now).
(Koechlin,organ music? That sounds intriguing!)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 03, 2011, 04:48:28 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 03, 2011, 07:43:51 AM
Michael Korstick. Vol 2 of the Hanssler Piano works series is 'Persian Hours' (I have food on the stove so I'm not going to try and spell the French,just now).
(Koechlin,organ music? That sounds intriguing!)

I still need to get the three volumes of Koechlin solo piano music on Hanssler. The reason I've been holding back is because solo piano isn't one of my favorite genres of classical music no matter how good the music really is.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 03, 2011, 08:43:34 AM
Here are a few lines from the liner notes of...



Peace Regained or A Transfiguration of the Abominable by Ludovic Florin

"A profoundly honest human being, convinced of art's ability to help the enlightenment and improvement of mankind, Koechlin put his imagination and his will at the heart of each of his works."

Referring to the Piano Quintet, Op. 80...

"Indeed, this is an attempt by Koechlin to translate the suffering of war into "pure" music, chamber music."
"Although it does not seem to be so, performing the first movement requires great command...He uses the most minute nuances and adds numerous directions on the score, such as "quite far away", "quite equal and with no hurry" or "in a hush", the better to get his ideas across"
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2011, 01:41:12 PM
Here are a few lines from the liner notes of...



Peace Regained or A Transfiguration of the Abominable by Ludovic Florin

"A profoundly honest human being, convinced of art's ability to help the enlightenment and improvement of mankind, Koechlin put his imagination and his will at the heart of each of his works."

Referring to the Piano Quintet, Op. 80...

"Indeed, this is an attempt by Koechlin to translate the suffering of war into "pure" music, chamber music."
"Although it does not seem to be so, performing the first movement requires great command...He uses the most minute nuances and adds numerous directions on the score, such as "quite far away", "quite equal and with no hurry" or "in a hush", the better to get his ideas across"

Sounds like a good disc, Greg. I have to say as lovely as Koechlin's chamber music is, he really shines in orchestral music where a full palette of colors are at his disposal. One listen to Three Poems from The Jungle Book is all one needs to recognize what kind of command he had over an orchestra. But the chamber music is lovely for what it is, a focused, more constricted form of musical expression. I just prefer that larger palette.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 09, 2011, 06:24:27 PM
Here's another section of Koechlin's Le Docteur Fabricius that I love, especially from 8:25-8:50:

http://www.youtube.com/v/UCtFpUyNPCY
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 09, 2011, 06:34:37 PM
I did end up buying the rest of the Koechlin Hanssler series, the ones I bought were all three volumes of the piano music. I'm really looking forward to hearing the piano version of The Persian Hours and do some side-by-side comparisons.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Hattoff on September 10, 2011, 01:04:52 AM
I've put a clip up on the 'name that piece the game' thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18633.1740.html

It was orchestrated by Charles Koechlin, anyone here care to have a guess at the composer?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 10, 2011, 06:31:35 AM
I've put a clip up on the 'name that piece the game' thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18633.1740.html

It was orchestrated by Charles Koechlin, anyone here care to have a guess at the composer?

It's already been guessed Cole Porter and you said that was correct.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2011, 07:31:46 AM
I've always liked The Meditation of Purun Bhagat from The Jungle Book. It has that great Koechlin feel of time and space:

http://www.youtube.com/v/OAy-pMCJims
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2011, 07:35:53 AM
It was orchestrated by Charles Koechlin, anyone here care to have a guess at the composer?

Tangentially, you are reminding me that I need to spend more time with Debussy’s Khamma.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2011, 07:43:11 AM
But, in all honesty, I'm not an asshole, in fact, I'm far from it.

Hilarious!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2011, 09:45:17 AM
Tangentially, you are reminding me that I need to spend more time with Debussy’s Khamma.

Yes, I need to refresh my memory of this work as well. I have to say that Jeux was a strange work for Debussy especially given the premise of the work:

"The scene is a garden at dusk; a tennis ball has been lost; a boy and two girls are searching for it. The artificial light of the large electric lamps shedding fantastic rays about them suggests the idea of childish games: they play hide and seek, they try to catch one another, they quarrel, they sulk without cause. The night is warm, the sky is bathed in pale light; they embrace. But the spell is broken by another tennis ball thrown in mischievously by an unknown hand. Surprised and alarmed, the boy and girls disappear into the nocturnal depths of the garden."

[Taken from Wikipedia]
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Muzition on September 11, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
I said in another thread that I'm learning to p lay 2 clarinet pieces by Koechlin.

They are two of his 12 "Monodies" for solo unaccompanied wind instruments.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 11, 2011, 06:05:25 PM
I said in another thread that I'm learning to play 2 clarinet pieces by Koechlin.

They are two of his 12 "Monodies" for solo unaccompanied wind instruments.

Excellent! If you get them to where you're confident enough to record them, I'd love to hear them. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Muzition on September 12, 2011, 07:17:24 AM
I do intend to record them and put them on Youtube, as I can't find any other videos of them on Youtube.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 12, 2011, 07:39:26 AM
I do intend to record them and put them on Youtube, as I can't find any other videos of them on Youtube.

Who publishes these, Muzition, or are they PD?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: Muzition on September 12, 2011, 08:33:14 AM
Who publishes these, Muzition, or are they PD?

It says "Collection Jean-Francois VERDIER" and "Gerard Billaudot Editeur" on the front of my score.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on September 12, 2011, 08:33:59 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Muzition on September 27, 2011, 03:13:16 PM
If you guys don't mind me being egotistical and posting a video of my own (not so good) clarinet playing, I finished recording the Two Monodies for Clarinet by Koechlin.

Here they are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7nr1IoUZcQ

I added some annotations to the video to point out some (hopefully) interesting things about the music.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 27, 2011, 03:23:18 PM
If you guys don't mind me being egotistical and posting a video of my own (not so good) clarinet playing, I finished recording the Two Monodies for Clarinet by Koechlin.

Here they are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7nr1IoUZcQ

I added some annotations to the video to point out some (hopefully) interesting things about the music.


Very good. Thanks for sharing.  ;D 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on September 27, 2011, 08:33:44 PM
I wish I could judge the work, but I've never been a fan of solo instrumentals, but I applaud the effort to learn something as obscure as one of Koechlin's works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 04, 2011, 06:58:30 AM
Koechlin is one of the latest composers I started listening to, but I really like his music, it's very expressive and melodious; I especially love the tone poems, the symphonies and the Ballade for Piano & Orchestra.

Ilaria
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 04, 2011, 07:35:13 AM
Koechlin is one of the latest composers I started listening to, but I really like his music, it's very expressive and melodious; I especially love the tone poems, the symphonies and the Ballade for Piano & Orchestra.

Ilaria

I'm glad you connect with Koechlin's music, Ilaria. His music is unlike anything I've ever heard. It's so personal and unique.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 10, 2011, 09:18:01 PM
Koechlin is one of the latest composers I started listening to, but I really like his music, it's very expressive and melodious; I especially love the tone poems, the symphonies and the Ballade for Piano & Orchestra.

Ilaria

Ilaria, have you purchased any of the Hanssler recordings yet?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 11, 2011, 07:11:52 AM
Ilaria, have you purchased any of the Hanssler recordings yet?

Not yet, I'm sorry John; but I've been considering to buy the set of Koechlin's Piano Works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2011, 07:46:03 AM
Not yet, I'm sorry John; but I've been considering to buy the set of Koechlin's Piano Works.

Actually, Ilaria, I would buy the 2-CD set of Vocal Works with Orchestra first. This is such an exquisite set. Juliane Banse is the vocalist and she's simply gorgeous.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 11, 2011, 08:17:39 AM
Actually, Ilaria, I would buy the 2-CD set of Vocal Works with Orchestra first. This is such an exquisite set. Juliane Banse is the vocalist and she's simply gorgeous.

Hmm, after having a look at the pieces included in the set, it seems to be excellent! All right, I may purchase that set first :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2011, 08:21:44 AM
Hmm, after having a look at the pieces included in the set, it seems to be excellent! All right, I may purchase that set first :)

I would also try and listen to audio samples if you can.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on October 11, 2011, 08:26:34 AM
My favorite Charlie K works are vocal ones. So I'd recommend them first as well.

In fact, I find most other works I have of his have a distinct French vocal character to them.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2011, 08:37:03 AM
My favorite Charlie K works are vocal ones. So I'd recommend them first as well.

In fact, I find most other works I have of his have a distinct French vocal character to them.

Good observation. I would say this is particularly true in the way he writes his melodies. They're long, drawn out, but have hypnotic effect on the listener. What's also worth noting is the harmony found behind these melodies. I was telling a friend of mine on FB that he was very much a harmonic minded composer. The melodies aren't the main attraction in his music, but they do lure you in.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 11, 2011, 08:49:12 AM
Thank you for the suggestions, I agree; as a mattter of fact, I prefer Koechlin's orchestral works to the piano ones.....
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2011, 08:55:28 AM
I prefer Koechlin's orchestral works to the piano ones.....

Me too. :D I do like a lot of his chamber music too, but his orchestral writing is so individual and different that exploring it first was the way to go.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on October 11, 2011, 11:05:39 AM
Thank you for the suggestions, I agree; as a mattter of fact, I prefer Koechlin's orchestral works to the piano ones.....

I am comfortable being the contrarian in the group : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2011, 11:09:08 AM
I am comfortable being the contrarian in the group : )

You the contrarian of the group? No, not Karl Henning. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on October 11, 2011, 11:20:48 AM
I wouldn't know how ; )

My favorite Charlie K works are vocal ones. So I'd recommend them first as well.

In fact, I find most other works I have of his have a distinct French vocal character to them.

Charlie the K . . . I like it!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on October 12, 2011, 01:47:40 AM
The Belgian Royal Library (Brussels) and the Université Libre de Bruxelles organised a (modest) exposition ( December 2003-January 2004) on conductor Franz André . At the same time a catalogue was published, dealing mainly with André's correspondence.
The catalogue ( alas, French only) can ( I suppose) still be bought at the Bibliothèque ( ISBN 2-87093-146-8)

Although his name seems largely forgotten now (no recordings on CD, I think)  Franz André was an incredibly active musician and he premiered an amazing amount of contemporary music with his "Grand orchestre symphonique de la Radio Belge ". Several composers dedicated works to him: Milhaud: symph.nr 7, Sauguet: symph.nr 3, Tansman: Musique pour orchestre, Chevreuille: symph.nr 6 etc.

I mention his name here because he can be seen as one of the very few conductors to have actually defended and programmed  Koechlin's music during the composer’s life. In Paris, Roger Désormière had premiered several works , but from 1937 on Franz André became more and more interested . André invites Koechlin regularly in Brussels and both men work intensely on the preparation of the (often) difficult scores. Several letters testify to the minute attention Koechlin gives to “orchestral nuance”. F.ex., In 1942 he sends André a letter with a host of corrections /changes in La course de Printemps ( mostly brass & perc.)
Franz André eventually will conduct and /or première several scores by Koechlin between 1936 and 1949:
Symphony nr 1
Le livre de la jungle – complete
La nuit de Walpurgis
Symphonie d’Hymnes
Ballade for piano & orchestra, Poème for horn  & orch.,
Le docteur Fabricius

I wonder if some of these performances ( Brussels, London, Paris, Turin) still exist in the radio archives…
P.

(http://www.kbr.be/collections/musique/images/franz_andre.jpg)

(http://www.kbr.be/actualites/expos/dossiers/andre/portrait.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: karlhenning on October 12, 2011, 04:16:42 AM
For obvious reasons of sympathy, I am always glad to learn of conductors who stand by living composers.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on October 12, 2011, 05:54:27 AM
Apart from working with Koechlin, the correspondence of Franz André offers letters by Arthur Bliss, Emmanuel Bondeville, Benjamin Britten (they performed the pianoconcerto), Claude Delvincourt, Oscar Espla, Honegger, Ibert, Milhaud, Messiaen, Poot, Chevreuille, Jean Rivier, Tansman, Sauguet etc. Letters that deal mostly with the actual performance of brandnew works.
P.


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 09:00:16 AM
Okay,that's France's answer to Havergal Brian & Langgaard at the top,as well! Although,Tournemire may be a possible outside contender (He needs a record label like Hanssler? Timpani,perhaps?)
I love Tournemire (or what I've managed to hear),but Koechlin is more daring.
(Mind you,that Tournemire Seventh is pretty strange? :o)
I hope Hanssler are going to give us some more,before long!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 25, 2012, 08:34:30 PM
Okay,that's France's answer to Havergal Brian & Langgaard at the top,as well! Although,Tournemire may be a possible outside contender (He needs a record label like Hanssler? Timpani,perhaps?)
I love Tournemire (or what I've managed to hear),but Koechlin is more daring.
(Mind you,that Tournemire Seventh is pretty strange? :o)
I hope Hanssler are going to give us some more,before long!

I have heard, from a legitimate source, that Holliger will release a new Koechlin recording of some of his orchestral arrangements and some of his own original compositions sometime this year. I don't know the date unfortunately.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 05:25:07 AM
Good news! Just keep the old fingers (metaphorically) crossed,eh? :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Dundonnell on February 26, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
I just thought that I should say that recordings of the two Koechlin numbered symphonies: No.1(1911-16) in a performance conducted by Manuel Rosenthal and No.2(1943-44) conducted by Constantin Silvestri are available for download from the usual place ;D ;D

I know that a number of us have been hoping to hear these for many years :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 26, 2012, 06:13:56 PM
What orchestra(s)?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Dundonnell on February 26, 2012, 07:19:56 PM
What orchestra(s)?

French National Radio Orchestra(Rosenthal) and London Philharmonic Orchestra(Silvestri) :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2012, 09:04:17 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 03:50:18 PM
Time to refresh this thread and say it's time I had a Koechlin revival. To celebrate the occasion, the Koechlin avatar is back. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 19, 2012, 04:09:37 PM
Time to refresh this thread and say it's time I had a Koechlin revival. To celebrate the occasion, the Koechlin avatar is back. 8)

He's Baaaaaaaack!  ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 04:27:56 PM
He's Baaaaaaaack!  ;)

That's right, I'm back...

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f57hlgQy4hA/TbdoxhCh76I/AAAAAAAAAt8/r3pDCUIT784/s1600/terminator.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on April 19, 2012, 09:15:08 PM
Am greatly enjoying 'Persian Hours' (orchestral + piano versions) on Marco Polo and Naxos.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 20, 2012, 03:13:37 AM
Am greatly enjoying 'Persian Hours' (orchestral + piano versions) on Marco Polo and Naxos.

As a piano piece, probably my favorite Koechlin.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 07:50:39 AM
As a piano piece, probably my favorite Koechlin.

Interesting Karl.  I must listen more to the piano version.  What do you like so much about it?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2012, 07:13:01 AM
FINALLY!!!!!



To be released in the US May 29th.

It appears there is only one original Koechlin composition on the recording so I'm pretty disappointed about that, but it will be nice to have all of his orchestrations of other composer's music together on one disc and some are world premiere recordings.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2012, 07:27:37 AM
Interesting Karl.  I must listen more to the piano version.  What do you like so much about it?

Sorry I dropped the ball, Jeffrey!  The whole suite strikes me as something of an étude in soft dynamics (with rare louder bits), that I find the restriction to the palette of the piano better suited.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2012, 07:32:12 AM
FINALLY!!!!!



To be released in the US May 29th.

It appears there is only one original Koechlin composition on the recording so I'm pretty disappointed about that, but it will be nice to have all of his orchestrations of other composer's music together on one disc and some are world premiere recordings.

Reminds me that I do want to get to know Khamma better.  Intrigued at the prospect of an orchestrated Wandererfantasie, too.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2012, 07:44:47 AM
Reminds me that I do want to get to know Khamma better.  Intrigued at the prospect of an orchestrated Wandererfantasie, too.

It'll be cool to hear the Faure too. 8)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2012, 07:46:41 AM
But (unless there's some other orchestration of it at large) . . . I've probably heard all the Fauré on WCRB one time or (and) another.  Lovely piece, I mean, only not (for me) a driver for fetching in a CD : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2012, 07:57:04 AM
But (unless there's some other orchestration of it at large) . . . I've probably heard all the Fauré on WCRB one time or (and) another.  Lovely piece, I mean, only not (for me) a driver for fetching in a CD : )

No, this work isn't the reason to buy this recording. This may sound silly, but I'm buying because of the lone Koechlin work on the recording.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2012, 08:04:30 AM
Nah, shouldn't call that silly, particularly if it be a piece not available elsewhere.  Fanatic, but not silly : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2012, 08:14:07 AM
Nah, shouldn't call that silly, particularly if it be a piece not available elsewhere.  Fanatic, but not silly : )

To make matters even more fanatic, this work is only about 5 minutes long! How cruel Hanssler has become!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on April 25, 2012, 11:49:57 AM
(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl400/l444/l44489t9b86.jpg)

Sur les flots lointains has been done before . But I suppose & think that the new recording is better.

Let's hope the symphonies are next...or those works with organ : opus 177: Le jeu de la Nativité, opus 49:l'Espérance, Chorals opus 76...And how about Saint Georges, opus 121 (fugue symphonique)? La cité nouvelle, rêve d'avenir, opus 170...

P.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 25, 2012, 12:39:03 PM
(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl400/l444/l44489t9b86.jpg)

Sur les flots lointains has been done before . But I suppose & think that the new recording is better.

Let's hope the symphonies are next...or those works with organ : opus 177: Le jeu de la Nativité, opus 49:l'Espérance, Chorals opus 76...And how about Saint Georges, opus 121 (fugue symphonique)? La cité nouvelle, rêve d'avenir, opus 170...

P.

You're so right! I forgot about that Segerstam recording which I suppose reveals how much I actually play any of Segerstam's Koechlin recordings. Holliger is clearly the superior conductor in this music, has the better audio quality, and the finer orchestra.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
Clearly I've been bitten by the Koechlin bug yet again, I've just heard Vers la voûte étoilée for the...ah...who's keeping count and what an exquisite work this is! There's something in Koechlin's music that touches me like no other. Again, I go back to the fact that we all have composers that we gravitate towards and Koechlin made a huge impression on me last year. I only hope this new Holliger recording coming out is going to signal more releases.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 01, 2012, 01:20:40 AM
Interesting. I revisited La voûte myself, Friday I think it must have been. Liked it the best I have so far : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2012, 08:26:02 AM
Interesting. I revisited La voûte myself, Friday I think it must have been. Liked it the best I have so far : )

Really? That's awesome, Karl. I'm glad you enjoyed. I really do think highly of it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 04:52:22 AM
I have just been reading posts on another forum (Dundonnell will know the one! ;D) describing Koechlin's music as 'uninsipired' and 'formulaic'! I must admit,I don't like everything I have heard by Koechlin,but formulaic?!! :o ::)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 11:58:54 AM
Thanks to those forum posts I've got out my cds of the Seven Stars Symphony & The Jungle Book. Funny how some negative observations (I'm being polite! ;D) can remind you of some wonderful music. Far from being uninspired & formulaic,Koechlin's music is very different from any of his French contemporaries. Why anyone would draw their comparisons from Debussy & Ravel is another mystery! Because they're more famous? Because they can't think of anyone else? I'm not an expert on French music,by any means,but I would have thought Roussel or Florent Schmitt would be more appropriate comparisons?!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 04, 2012, 12:02:17 PM
Well, there is that tie-in to Debussy, of Koechlin's having orchestrated Khamma . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2012, 12:41:12 PM
I have just been reading posts on another forum (Dundonnell will know the one! ;D) describing Koechlin's music as 'uninsipired' and 'formulaic'! I must admit,I don't like everything I have heard by Koechlin,but formulaic?!! :o ::)

Good to see some life on this thread. :) Koechlin's music uninspired and formulaic? This is the criticism? Honestly, I don't even care. Some person on an Amazon forum said he would rather jump off a cliff than listen to Koechlin's "boring and dreary" music. ::) I haven't enjoyed everything I've heard from Koechlin, like you said, but he's incredibly high up on my list of favorite composers, especially with works like Le buisson ardent Parts I & II, Vers la Voûte étoilée, Le Docteur Fabricius, The Jungle Book, and Chant funebre a la memoire des jeunes femmes defuntes. This is music that never fails to send my mind into another time and place.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 12:42:33 PM
Well I did say I wasn't an expert! ::) ;D I was just referring to the general sound world of Koechlin's music. Of course there is a connection,really. I think the comments on that other forum just annoyed me a bit!
On the plus side,they got me listening to some Koechlin,again! :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 12:45:29 PM
The comments I referred to are recent ones on the UC forum. I'm not a member & people are entitled to their opinions. I just some of them a bit daft,that's all! ::)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2012, 12:55:18 PM
All is well my friend. Don't sweat the small stuff! Enjoy the music! :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 04, 2012, 01:00:36 PM
The comments I referred to are recent ones on the UC forum. I'm not a member & people are entitled to their opinions. I just some of them a bit daft,that's all! ::)

Oh, there's daftness about, no question : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 02:17:31 PM
I would have been more subtle,but I had to phone my father! ;D Thus,the bad typing! But it's funny how negative reactions like that can get you going. A bad review or an unenthusiastic post & I'm thinking,'Right! I'm going to have another listen to that!' Partly,because you think they were wrong & also,just to make sure?! ::)

Both cds have been on repeat for a few hours,now. The songs on the first cd of the Zinman are particularly enjoyable. I'm going to have to put the cd on again! Incidentally,I tried the old Segerstam cd recently. Off it went! This is the one to listen to. Well,at least in my collection! The sound quality on those Marco Polo cds doesn't do Koechlin's music any favours. Music like this needs good sound quality as well as good playing. While his music is often very astringent,it is often very lush! It's the mix of astringency & luxuriant textures that is so extraordinary! Schmitt can be like that too! Like the opening of his Symphonie Concertante. I remember the Gramophone critic,reviewing the original AV release,advising his readers not to be put off by the dissonance of the opening. He was right! Some of it is almost impressionistic. An astonishing score and,as far as I can make out (after a perfunctory glance at Amazon) still the only recording available! :( And don't even get me started on the Tournemire Symphonies!! :( >:( Well,not in this thread,anyway!!! ;D Anyway,I'm getting dangerously off topic,here! ::)

My recording of the Seven Stars Symphony is the old Alexandre Myrat emi release. I liked the music before,but this time around I loved it & I have to say,I disagree entirely with Dundonnell's comments;although it's obviously not as consistent in inspiration or as astonishing as his 'Jungle Book cycle. Having said that,if it sounds as intriguing & haunting as it does in the old emi recording,what does it sound like in your own favoured recording,Mirror Image?! Unfortunately,a quick glance at Amazon reveals a page of deletions & rather high prices & like Tony Hancock,I'm on a bit of an economy drive right now! :( :(





 
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
I would have been more subtle,but I had to phone my father! ;D Thus,the bad typing! But it's funny how negative reactions like that can get you going. A bad review or an unenthusiastic post & I'm thinking,'Right! I'm going to have another listen to that!' Partly,because you think they were wrong & also,just to make sure?! ::)

Both cds have been on repeat for a few hours,now. The songs on the first cd of the Zinman are particularly enjoyable. I'm going to have to put the cd on again! Incidentally,I tried the old Segerstam cd recently. Off it went! This is the one to listen to. Well,at least in my collection! The sound quality on those Marco Polo cds doesn't do Koechlin's music any favours. Music like this needs good sound quality as well as good playing. While his music is often very astringent,it is often very lush! It's the mix of astringency & luxuriant textures that is so extraordinary! Schmitt can be like that too! Like the opening of his Symphonie Concertante. I remember the Gramophone critic,reviewing the original AV release,advising his readers not to be put off by the dissonance of the opening. He was right! Some of it is almost impressionistic. An astonishing score and,as far as I can make out (after a perfunctory glance at Amazon) still the only recording available! :( And don't even get me started on the Tournemire Symphonies!! :( >:( Well,not in this thread,anyway!!! ;D Anyway,I'm getting dangerously off topic,here! ::)

My recording of the Seven Stars Symphony is the old Alexandre Myrat emi release. I liked the music before,but this time around I loved it & I have to say,I disagree entirely with Dundonnell's comments;although it's obviously not as consistent in inspiration or as astonishing as his 'Jungle Book cycle. Having said that,if it sounds as intriguing & haunting as it does in the old emi recording,what does it sound like in your own favoured recording,Mirror Image?! Unfortunately,a quick glance at Amazon reveals a page of deletions & rather high prices & like Tony Hancock,I'm on a bit of an economy drive right now! :( :(

The best Koechlin recordings have been on Hanssler Classics. The performances and audio quality certainly give this music full justice, so if you don't own Heinz Holliger's Koechlin recordings. Buy them now! :) They're much, much better than Segerstam's performances. Unfortunately, I do not own any recording of the Seven Stars Symphony. The James Judd recording has been out-of-print for quite some time and each time I find a used copy the seller is asking an arm and limb for it. I've heard the work on YouTube, but it didn't strike me as that remarkable. The works I mentioned are the ones that have impressed me the most.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2012, 02:54:23 PM
I believe you. My experience of Marco Polo cds is not one to write home about,quite frankly! While I can well recall my enthusiasm when they first emerged & they were very pioneering,fair play,in many ways (and thank you for that! :) I can't think of many occasions when I haven't preferred a replacement recording,when one has finally come along! ( Thankfully,I DO have the RCA recording of 'The Jungle Book Cycle' & there's just no comparison.
As to the Seven Stars Symphony. I DO like some of it,very much. But,having said that,the inspiration seems to fall off towards the end. Some movements are clearly more inspired than others and,l'm going to have to give it another listen,before I can really make up my mind! ::)
As to the 'Jungle Book Cycle? Well,there's just no comparison!! ;D It's astonishing,isn't it?! :)


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
There are two recordings of the complete Jungle Book. One with Zinman, which is studio performance and Bedford which is live. I prefer Zinman by a large margin, but Bedford's is a good account, although the main problem with this recording is there's applause after each tone poem. But, anyway, you should definitely check out the Hanssler recordings. These will make your Koechlin appreciation much richer I'm sure.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: StLukesguildOhio on December 04, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
Yes, the Hanssler recordings of Koechlin are quite fine... but the Chandos releases are also quite good. I "discovered" Koechlin some two or three years ago and was immediately enthralled. What I am still looking for is a good recording of his Les Chants de Nectaire for solo flute. Here is the only complete recording I have come upon:

http://www.bastamusic.com/product/leendert-de-jonge-les-chants-de-nectaire (http://www.bastamusic.com/product/leendert-de-jonge-les-chants-de-nectaire)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2012, 02:54:39 AM
Which reminds me!!! ::) ;D I actually paid for & downloaded that work quite some time ago,when I was still a 'newbie' to that kind of thing! Unfortunately,it got scattered around my pc & the cds were mixed up,silly me!! :-[ As soon as I have the time I will sort the tracks out. I'm more 'savvy' about that sort of thing,now! At least,I hope I am?!! ;D I certainly like what I've heard!
I DO have the Hyperion/Helios cd 'Music for Flute',which includes some lovely songs,as well. There is some wonderful music on the cd,beautifully performed  & I thoroughly recommend it to anyone who likes that sort of thing!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2012, 08:59:30 PM
For me, the orchestral music is where Koechlin shines the brightest. I really do hope Holliger continues the series on Hanssler. The last installment was disappointing because of the lack of original compositions. Koechlin was a master orchestrator he doesn't need an entire recording dedicated to his orchestrations. The man wrote two treatises for this subject. That's enough! :) Let's get some more symphonic poems that have yet to be recorded out there where people can hear them. Come on Hanssler! Get your act together guys!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 05:08:44 AM
The chamber arrangement of Paysages et marines is news to me.  The samples sound very nice . . . I think this could be my next Koechlin snaffle.  Either that or the Korstick recording of Les heures persanes . . . .

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 05:39:43 AM
The chamber arrangement of Paysages et marines is news to me.  The samples sound very nice . . . I think this could be my next Koechlin snaffle.  Either that or the Korstick recording of Les heures persanes . . . .

Or . . . the samples on this organ works disc I am finding enticing, as well.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2013, 06:21:47 AM
Or . . . the samples on this organ works disc I am finding enticing, as well.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81LV6Vae1vL._SL1429_.jpg)

Well that looks like an enticing recording, especially after reading this MusicWeb Review (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=612124) - may just put in my Amazon cart!  Dave :) 

P.S. Plus would make an 'even dozen' of Koechlin CDs in my collection!  :D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 06:30:11 AM
Which two of that dozen would you consider indispensable?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 06:32:51 AM
Any opinions on this 'un?  I like the idea of those two pieces, but the sample clips gave me a mixed impression of execution . . . .

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2013, 08:10:11 AM
Which two of that dozen would you consider indispensable?

Hi Karl - just made a quick list (quoted below) of the 11 Koechlin recordings now in my collection (will likely add that organ disc soon) - don't know if I can really pick just two CDs - one from each category maybe?  The Jungle Book is outstanding and certainly one or several of the wind chamber discs would be strong candidates for me.

BTW - I just listened to the Piano Quintet & SQ No.3 - re-read the notes; both works were a reflection of the composer's experiences/feelings about WWI - different from his other composing (dissonance, anger, joys, etc.) - plus, the movement names in the PQ are evocative - The Obscure Wait of What Shall be...; The Enemy Attack - The Wound; Consoling Nature; Finale - The Joy.  Not sure that short snippets will help much on deciding a purchase?  Dave :)  P.S. - there is a quoted Fanfare review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282910)!

Quote
Orchestral Work
  Jungle Book - Zinman - RCA
  Les Bandar-log et al - Holliger - Hanssler
  Le Docteur Fabricius et al - Holliger - Hanssler
  Les Heures Persanes - Holliger - Hanssler

Chamber Works
  Clarinet Pieces (piano) - Hanssler
  Flute Chamber Music - Hanssler
  Les Heures Persanes - Stott (piano) - Chandos
  Piano Quintet & SQ No.3 - Mecenat Musical
  Saxophone/Piano Pieces - Chandos
  String Quartets Nos.1/2 - Mecenat Musical
  Wind Works - Timpani
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
Thanks, Dave!
Title: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2013, 08:33:49 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/21/ubu8y6ug.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/21/7ajy9u4a.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/21/zase9ade.jpg)


These are the 3 (out of my 6) that still get the most playtime. Very fine recordings. However, I would love to expand my Koechlin collection, perhaps more chamber.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 08:40:34 AM
Well, as both you gents bespeak the Opp. 72 & 80 so heartily . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2013, 08:45:01 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/21/7ajy9u4a.jpg)

I don't think I marked before that all these works are on the early side (pre-Op. 65 . . . not that there is magic in that number, it's just that somehow Les heures persanes has become The Reference Point for me : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2013, 09:19:16 AM
Yes, the Hanssler recordings of Koechlin are quite fine...

Separately . . . a colleague of mine formerly here in Boston has moved (back, really, as her family are yet there) to Cleveland.

Quote from: John Ciardi
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

But . . . what if the painter is a woman? : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2013, 09:20:44 AM
BTW - I just listened to the Piano Quintet & SQ No.3 - re-read the notes; both works were a reflection of the composer's experiences/feelings about WWI - different from his other composing (dissonance, anger, joys, etc.) - plus, the movement names in the PQ are evocative - The Obscure Wait of What Shall be...; The Enemy Attack - The Wound; Consoling Nature; Finale - The Joy.  Not sure that short snippets will help much on deciding a purchase?  Dave :)  P.S. - there is a quoted Fanfare review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282910)!


The Quintet is lovely. Thanks for your patient advocacy, Dave (and Greg)!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 23, 2013, 12:32:11 PM
The Quintet is lovely. Thanks for your patient advocacy, Dave (and Greg)!

WHEW! Glad that you liked the piece & the recording - Dave :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2013, 02:38:19 AM
And the Wind Septet: excellent.

Of course, you could argue that he got on my good side right away, with a solo clarinet opening movement (Monodie). But he had the sensitivity to know that you cannot go wrong, starting with clarinet solo!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on May 24, 2013, 06:19:02 AM
Well, as both you gents bespeak the Opp. 72 & 80 so heartily . . . .

PULL THE TRIGGER KARL, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!!!!!
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


And the Wind Septet: excellent.

Of course, you could argue that he got on my good side right away, with a solo clarinet opening movement (Monodie). But he had the sensitivity to know that you cannot go wrong, starting with clarinet solo!

Don't I have that 'Septet' on BIS? checking... mm, I think I must have sold it. >:(
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2013, 06:40:09 AM
PULL THE TRIGGER KARL, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!!!!!
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Dude, that trigger was yesterday's news! : )
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: edward on June 05, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
The Guardian's Andrew Clements is enthusiastic about a recent chamber music issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jun/05/koechlin-quintet-quartet-lavaud-antigone

(I think he must have been one of the earlier critics to get aboard the Koechlin bandwagon.)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2013, 11:53:05 AM
Nice (if brief) review. How much of the huge catalogue has he had a chance to o'erlook, do you suppose? Is he out on something of a limb, asserting that it's undervalued?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on July 20, 2013, 08:19:43 PM
The Guardian's Andrew Clements is enthusiastic about a recent chamber music issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jun/05/koechlin-quintet-quartet-lavaud-antigone

(I think he must have been one of the earlier critics to get aboard the Koechlin bandwagon.)
Well, after getting this recording I've been on something of a Koechlin binge. I've just purchased these (and while I haven't
waded through them all yet, the samples, and what I've heard so far, sounded extremely promising):
(http://www.recordsinternational.com/images/cds/09O/09O045.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KYY1YNQFL._SY300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BAV1HaPL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Two of these I purchased after reading this review on musicweb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Koechlin_chamber.htm

I hope this isn't mostly redundant. I've looked through this forum and I haven't caught a mention of all of these.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2013, 03:02:41 AM
Well, after getting this recording I've been on something of a Koechlin binge. I've just purchased these (and while I haven't
waded through them all yet, the samples, and what I've heard so far, sounded extremely promising):
(http://www.recordsinternational.com/images/cds/09O/09O045.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KYY1YNQFL._SY300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BAV1HaPL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Two of these I purchased after reading this review on musicweb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Koechlin_chamber.htm

I hope this isn't mostly redundant. I've looked through this forum and I haven't caught a mention of all of these.
No,it isn't. Thank you,'milk'! Most posts tend to favour his orchestral music. This is very useful,as is the link to the cd reviews,which I hadn't read.
More please! :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on July 21, 2013, 04:22:58 AM
No,it isn't. Thank you,'milk'! Most posts tend to favour his orchestral music. This is very useful,as is the link to the cd reviews,which I hadn't read.
More please! :)
[/quote]
Oh that's great. The reviewer is a bit negative on the sound quality of the Lissy but I don't notice it (though my praise goes out to him - Byzantion - whoever he is). All three of these are really enjoyable. I think the Antigone Quartet with Sarah Lavaud performing the Piano Quintet has been mentioned here but that is really stunning music. I don't want to leave out the Naxos release of the piano version of Les heures persanes by Ralph van Raat. This recording is very reasonably priced on amazon, itunes (on CD or download) etc. But I know that's also been mentioned here. One thing I'm curious about is Koechlin's vocal music. I wonder what it's like and if it's any good.   
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on July 25, 2013, 06:01:04 PM
No,it isn't. Thank you,'milk'! Most posts tend to favour his orchestral music. This is very useful,as is the link to the cd reviews,which I hadn't read.
More please! :)
I made a bit of a mistake here. This reviewer is right. Listening to this on headphones today I find that this reviewer is right and that op. 64 is quite marred by the sound of huffing and puffing. It is too bad as the violin sonata is wonderful music. If anyone has a recommendation for another recording of the violin sonata, I'm interested.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on September 13, 2013, 12:14:51 AM
(http://static.qobuz.com/images/jaquettes/3375/3375250198508_600.jpg)
This is a rerelease with a slightly different title. It's welcome given the technical flaws in the Lissy recording of the violin sonata.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2013, 12:58:05 AM
Thanks, that does look interesting.  But then, I have a proprietary interest in viola sonatas  ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: milk on September 13, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
Thanks, that does look interesting.  But then, I have a proprietary interest in viola sonatas  ;)
I thought you were a clarinetist. There is also Steven Dann & James Parker as another option on the viola piece. I've been enjoying
Koechlin quite a bit these last few months.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2013, 05:49:25 AM
I am indeed a clarinetist, but I have composed a Viola Sonata  :)
 
I think I shall cue up the chamber arrangement of Paysages et marines . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on September 14, 2013, 11:13:03 PM
I am indeed a clarinetist, but I have composed a Viola Sonata  :)
 
I think I shall cue up the chamber arrangement of Paysages et marines . . . .
I'm not sure I value his viola sonata as highly as some of his other chamber works but I'm still trying. The Parker/Dann recording is interesting because it also contains debuts of two viola peices: one by de Bréville and the other by Tournemire. I might also mention I'm liking the recording of Koechlin's cello works by Bruns/Ishay. It's grabbed me more than the one by Mats Lidström & Bengt Forsberg. By the way, I notice some of your choral works are up on youtube. They look interesting. Any chance some of your chamber works might appear?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 15, 2013, 02:22:55 AM
Thanks, yes, I've had in mind to hoist some of those up onto YouTube.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on September 30, 2013, 10:36:36 AM
All this Frenchiness of course brings up Koechlin. Has there been discussion about simply all those solo wind suites that one can find on CPO? Horn, bassoon, oboe, flute,... are they all the somewhat same recycled music, or is each one distinct. Solos, duos, trios,... aye aye aye!! ??? :o ??? Don't even include 'with piano', haha!!

Those String Quartet/Piano Quintet cds were pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 30, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
Those String Quartet/Piano Quintet cds were pretty impressive.

Agreed; some of my favorite Koechlin.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 29, 2015, 06:35:07 AM
I revived this thread because I seriously believe that Nate (EigenUser) needs to listen to Koechlin's music. Nate, if you're reading, run, don't walk over to Spotify (or wherever you listen to music these days) and check out Heinz Holliger's recordings of Koechlin on Hanssler. You will NOT be sorry. Right up your alley.

To give Nate a little taste of Koechlin, try this work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ctPTaigcRTE
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: MishaK on April 29, 2015, 06:53:42 AM
I note with delight that the Berlin Philharmonic will be performing Koechlin's Les Bandar-log under Simon Rattle on February 20, 2016 which will be avaliable live (and later in the archive) in the Digital Concert Hall, as just announced in their new season program.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
Now:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/071/MI0001071459.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Listening to Le buisson ardent, Parts I & II. Magical music.

John, what's the story to the apparently backwards opus numbers (203 & 171) there for Le buisson ardent? TIA
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 05:54:50 AM
John, what's the story to the apparently backwards opus numbers (203 & 171) there for Le buisson ardent? TIA

Apparently, Koechlin was writing Le buisson ardent, Part I and put it down to work on some ideas he had for Le buisson ardent, Part II and he finished the second part before he finished the first, so he assigned an opus number to the one he finished first.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2015, 05:58:38 AM
Thanks!  And being prolific, he got a lot of other work done in the interval.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 06:00:24 AM
Thanks!  And being prolific, he got a lot of other work done in the interval.

You're welcome and, yes, he was quite a busy man, especially with all of the other things he had going on in his life (i. e. teaching, loved bicycling/hiking, photography).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2015, 06:01:48 AM
Koechlin & Saint-Saëns . . . not a lot of grass grew beneath their feet . . . .
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 06:03:38 AM
Koechlin & Saint-Saëns . . . not a lot of grass grew beneath their feet . . . .

:) Indeed.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on April 30, 2015, 06:12:08 AM
Agreed; some of my favorite Koechlin.

The AS recording by the Antigone quartet?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2015, 06:12:59 AM
Aye, Paul.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: springrite on April 30, 2015, 06:14:23 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 07:46:16 AM
Oh and Nate (if you ever read this), Koechlin loved using the ondes martenot and wrote some gorgeous parts for it. Again, Koechlin's music is right up your alley!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on April 30, 2015, 12:17:07 PM
Think I'll put the Seven Stars Symphony on again,soon. It might not be his best piece of music,but I seem to recall,it has it's moments.
Maybe the Jungle Book cycle,then. A Koechlin weekend! :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 12:32:56 PM
Think I'll put the Seven Stars Symphony on again,soon. It might not be his best piece of music,but I seem to recall,it has it's moments.
Maybe the Jungle Book cycle,then. A Koechlin weekend! :)

Sounds good. What performance do you own of Seven Stars Symphony, cilgwyn?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 03:02:03 PM
I may have posted this review I wrote on the The Jungle Book but here it is again. Personally, I believe it's one of the better reviews I've written:

Charles Koechlin (pronounced KAY CLAN) is, in my estimate, one of the most underrated French composers of all-time. He was overshadowed by Debussy and Ravel because he did not know how to promote his music and had very few conductors that were interested in getting his music performed. I'm sure this could be debated, but let's face it, his music won't be spoken in the same breath as Brahms any time soon, especially if the more conservative audiences have anything to say about it. Orchestras continue to rehash the same old programs year after year with no new repertoire being performed. I honestly think "The Jungle Book" could gain repertory status if it had proper exposure. To my knowledge only two recordings exist of the complete cycle: this one from Zinman and the other one from Steuart Bedford. Leif Segerstam recorded all of the cycle except for "Three Poems," which I find puzzling, because Segerstam has released several other Koechlin recordings on Marco Polo. You would think he would perform the whole "Jungle Book" cycle. Anyway, in all honesty, the Bedford and Segerstam simply can't compete with Zinman who I think has the full measure of this music. Zinman may seem like an odd choice, but I think he has a full grasp of the wide scope which "The Jungle Book" requires to be successful.

Now I would like to talk about the music, which I think is some of the most original music to come out of the early to mid 20th Century. This work preoccupied Koechlin for many years. I would say, if you're familiar with his style, this is a very approachable work, but if you're unfamiliar with his music then I should say approach with a little caution. This is not to scare you off but rather warn you that you've never heard anything quite like this before. Koechlin favors harmony and texture over melody and rhythm, but don't let this fool you, these are not atmospheric pieces that tickle your ear, this is highly complex music that when the climaxes thrust forward, you will feel like someone has just punched you in the face. Koechlin is an incredible orchestrator, probably one of the finest in music history along with Ravel, Rimsky-Korsakov, R. Strauss, Schoenberg, etc. The colors he's able to pull from the orchestra are simply astonishing. His approach to harmony is also one of the key characteristics of his music. Nobody writes harmony like this. In fact, Koechlin has written a treatise about harmony and also orchestration. It should be noted that while Koechlin's music was obscure, he was well respected as an educator and was highly regarded by his peers.

This music is so hard to describe, but I think if you have an open-mind about music then Koechlin won't be too difficult for you to grasp. I recommend repeat listening of his music, because so often people will miss some of the subtlety that his music offers. This isn't highly driven music like Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" or Bartok's "The Miraculous Mandarin," but it does have it's moments of rhythmic thrust. The performances from Zinman and the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra are exemplary. Iris Vermillion, one of the loveliest voices I've heard in quite some time, Johan Botha, and Ralf Lukas are all impeccable. Also, the audio quality is remarkably good.

If you enjoy "The Jungle Book," then please check out Hanssler's series of Koechlin. The orchestral recordings are led by Heinz Holliger with the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra and have proven to be a revelation to me. Zinman's "The Jungle Book" is out-of-print, but should be available in the used market. Enjoy the music!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Ken B on April 30, 2015, 04:21:54 PM
Oh and Nate (if you ever read this), Koechlin loved using the ondes martenot and wrote some gorgeous parts for it. Again, Koechlin's music is right up your alley!

Careful Nate! John tricked me into wasting $ on The Jungle Book!
You've been warned!

 >:D :laugh: :P

Actually I liked his chamber music and small scale stuff. Just not the bloated behemoth orchestral stuff.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 04:36:11 PM
Careful Nate! John tricked me into wasting $ on The Jungle Book!
You've been warned!

 >:D :laugh: :P

Actually I liked his chamber music and small scale stuff. Just not the bloated behemoth orchestral stuff.

I do like many of Koechlin's chamber works, but his orchestral and vocal music are where it's at for me. The larger the behemoth, the better I like it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Ken B on April 30, 2015, 04:40:59 PM
The larger the behemoth, the better I like it.

Have I got advice for you then! One word, Turangalila.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 04:41:47 PM
Have I got advice for you then! One word, Turangalila.

 :laugh:

 :P
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 30, 2015, 04:47:22 PM
I note with delight that the Berlin Philharmonic will be performing Koechlin's Les Bandar-log under Simon Rattle on February 20, 2016 which will be avaliable live (and later in the archive) in the Digital Concert Hall, as just announced in their new season program.

I'd love it if Simon Rattle recorded a complete Jungle Book cycle, but I won't hold my breath. :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 01:11:25 AM
Sounds good. What performance do you own of Seven Stars Symphony, cilgwyn?
The old emi recording. I have been listening to this on repeat. Reason? Cordless headphones and too busy to change the cd. Reason No 2! I left it in the mini hi-fi overnight and it was easier just to play whatever was in there!
Well,this one really has grown on me. In fact,I don't really want to take it out......at least for a while. There are cool,mysterious sounding bits with the ondes martenon. Whole movements. I can't see the cd player display allot of the time......that's the trouble with these headphones!! Then there is that muscular,energetic music that you get in parts of the Jungle Book cycle. The way all this is bundled into one 'symphony' is quite amazing,to my ears. Like Brian's third symphony I get the feeling it is almost too full of ideas for it's own good;but this is what makes it such compulsive listening.
Wow! Not pulling this out of the cd player  really has opened this one up! I'm surprised. I've had it for ages and previously filed it under the interesting but very uneven category. In fact,I don't think it is uneven so much as just such a wild profusion of moods and ideas that it's very difficult to get your head around them at first,which gives an impression of opaqueness at first. Once you crack it this is very compulsive music.
Another comparison besides Brian's third springs to mind. Villa Lobos Choros No 11. Another work which seems to be almost too jam packed with ideas for it's own good. I thought it was wildly uneven at first,but it was just the sheer profusion of ideas and moods. I'm not always convinced by Villa Lobos,but I find that one quite amazing.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 01:21:31 AM
Warning! This composer may damage your wallet!
Listening to the Seven Stars Symphony I just had to buy the two Hanssler cds of Le Buisson ardent and Le Docteur Fabricius. What could I do?!!! :( ;D

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 01, 2015, 01:57:22 AM
Careful Nate! John tricked me into wasting $ on The Jungle Book!
You've been warned!

 >:D :laugh: :P

Actually I liked his chamber music and small scale stuff. Just not the bloated behemoth orchestral stuff.

Les heures persanes (particularly the piano original).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 01, 2015, 01:58:08 AM
Warning! This composer may damage your wallet!
Listening to the Seven Stars Symphony I just had to buy the two Hanssler cds of Le Buisson ardent and Le Docteur Fabricius. What could I do?!!! :( ;D

The Doctor is quirky, but quite an enjoyable score.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 04:21:19 AM
Actually,I did have the Hanssler cd of 'Docteur Fabricius' and 'Le Buisson ardent'. I took them to a charity shop!! ??? Better luck this time,I hope!! I am liking Koechlin's Jungle Book cycle now;but I must confess that I am slightly disappointed that RCA have left out 'Oo-bee-doo I wanna be like you hoo-hoo' and 'The Bear Necessities'!! :( I loved those songs as a kid!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 01, 2015, 04:34:07 AM
. . . 'Oo-bee-doo I wanna be like you hoo-hoo' and 'The Bear Necessities'!! :( I loved those songs as a kid!

So did I!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2015, 05:41:58 AM
Warning! This composer may damage your wallet!
Listening to the Seven Stars Symphony I just had to buy the two Hanssler cds of Le Buisson ardent and Le Docteur Fabricius. What could I do?!!! :( ;D

Outstanding! I love those recordings. Do you own the Hanssler disc of Vocal Works with Orchestra? It's a 2-CD set. Again, great stuff.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2015, 05:48:59 AM
The old emi recording. I have been listening to this on repeat. Reason? Cordless headphones and too busy to change the cd. Reason No 2! I left it in the mini hi-fi overnight and it was easier just to play whatever was in there!
Well,this one really has grown on me. In fact,I don't really want to take it out......at least for a while. There are cool,mysterious sounding bits with the ondes martenon. Whole movements. I can't see the cd player display allot of the time......that's the trouble with these headphones!! Then there is that muscular,energetic music that you get in parts of the Jungle Book cycle. The way all this is bundled into one 'symphony' is quite amazing,to my ears. Like Brian's third symphony I get the feeling it is almost too full of ideas for it's own good;but this is what makes it such compulsive listening.
Wow! Not pulling this out of the cd player  really has opened this one up! I'm surprised. I've had it for ages and previously filed it under the interesting but very uneven category. In fact,I don't think it is uneven so much as just such a wild profusion of moods and ideas that it's very difficult to get your head around them at first,which gives an impression of opaqueness at first. Once you crack it this is very compulsive music.
Another comparison besides Brian's third springs to mind. Villa Lobos Choros No 11. Another work which seems to be almost too jam packed with ideas for it's own good. I thought it was wildly uneven at first,but it was just the sheer profusion of ideas and moods. I'm not always convinced by Villa Lobos,but I find that one quite amazing.

Some interesting comments, cilgwyn. I loved The Jungle Book on first-listen and this was partly out of complete bewilderment to what I was hearing. I couldn't believe the sounds Koechlin could pull from the orchestra and I loved the textural/atmospheric aspect of the music. I also was greatly impressed with what Koechlin was doing harmonically. I listened to this set over and over. I was just completely mesmerized and still am to this day whenever I hear these works. I've owned this Zinman recording for five years now and for many people this isn't a long time, but if these were LPs, they would have been worn out a long time ago. 8)

P.S. Love Villa-Lobos' Choros No. 11. One of my favorites.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 06:11:43 AM
Ooh,I'm going to have to resist that one for the time being,MI! ??? :( ;D I did make a mistake getting rid of those Koechlin cd's.....but I moved house,and it's a bit smaller here! (I gather the last occupiers were a family of Russian dolls! ;D) I remember you thought the Hanssler recording of Le Buisson ardent was superior to the Marco Polo performance. Now,is this the one with the ondes martenon? Or,both? Presumably,Koechlin's orchestration will sound even more vivid in the Hanssler recording?
I did find enough of the Jungle Book cycle interesting enough to hold on to it. This time around it really has 'clicked',as they say. I have been listening to it for hours. Suddenly,I love all of it! The harmonies,the profusion of ideas,astringent at times but once you get to grips with it you can let the sounds flow through your mind. Impressionistic at times and wildly eclectic. It makes me think of Villa Lobos in terms of the intricacy of the orchestration and welter of sounds.....and then of course,there is this connection with Lobos,with Jungles,and the images they bring to mind. It doesn't sound Brazilian,though. This is a very French sounding Indian jungle. Although,I seem to remember Kipling never actually visited the Jungle,so maybe we're talking Henri Rousseau,the French painter,whose jungle depictions Koechlin may (probably,they are very famous?) have seen?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2015, 07:36:57 AM
Ooh,I'm going to have to resist that one for the time being,MI! ??? :( ;D I did make a mistake getting rid of those Koechlin cd's.....but I moved house,and it's a bit smaller here! (I gather the last occupiers were a family of Russian dolls! ;D) I remember you thought the Hanssler recording of Le Buisson ardent was superior to the Marco Polo performance. Now,is this the one with the ondes martenon? Or,both? Presumably,Koechlin's orchestration will sound even more vivid in the Hanssler recording?
I did find enough of the Jungle Book cycle interesting enough to hold on to it. This time around it really has 'clicked',as they say. I have been listening to it for hours. Suddenly,I love all of it! The harmonies,the profusion of ideas,astringent at times but once you get to grips with it you can let the sounds flow through your mind. Impressionistic at times and wildly eclectic. It makes me think of Villa Lobos in terms of the intricacy of the orchestration and welter of sounds.....and then of course,there is this connection with Lobos,with Jungles,and the images they bring to mind. It doesn't sound Brazilian,though. This is a very French sounding Indian jungle. Although,I seem to remember Kipling never actually visited the Jungle,so maybe we're talking Henri Rousseau,the French painter,whose jungle depictions Koechlin may (probably,they are very famous?) have seen?

Oh, there are several Koechlin works which feature parts for the ondes martenot. Le buisson ardent Parts I & II, Docteur Fabricius, I believe I heard the instrument in La course de pritemps from The Jungle Book. Anyway, he loved the instrument and really used in a melodic way. Yes, Rousseau is a likely inspiration, but it is obvious that Kipling is the main inspiration behind this massive work. I've never read Kipling's book, but it seemed to have occupied Koechlin for many years. I consider this work one of the greatest orchestral works ever written. The whole cycle acts as one piece of music for me. It's like Sibelius' Lemminkainen Suite for example --- a work that can played in its entirety or as standalone individual movements.

I have to say I'm thrilled to see some rejuvenation in this thread as I believe Koechlin is one of the more individual voices in the 20th Century.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Ken B on May 01, 2015, 09:33:07 AM


I have to say I'm thrilled to see some rejuvenation in this thread as I believe Koechlin is one of the more individual voices in the 20th Century.

Certainly the world would be a better place if more orchestras replaced yet another La Mer rendition with a Koechlin.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 01, 2015, 09:33:45 AM
And with that delightfully oblique post, my Friday is complete!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
Oh, there are several Koechlin works which feature parts for the ondes martenot. Le buisson ardent Parts I & II, Docteur Fabricius, I believe I heard the instrument in La course de pritemps from The Jungle Book. Anyway, he loved the instrument and really used in a melodic way. Yes, Rousseau is a likely inspiration, but it is obvious that Kipling is the main inspiration behind this massive work. I've never read Kipling's book, but it seemed to have occupied Koechlin for many years. I consider this work one of the greatest orchestral works ever written. The whole cycle acts as one piece of music for me. It's like Sibelius' Lemminkainen Suite for example --- a work that can played in its entirety or as standalone individual movements.

I have to say I'm thrilled to see some rejuvenation in this thread as I believe Koechlin is one of the more individual voices in the 20th Century.
;D To be continued............
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: MishaK on May 01, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
I'd love it if Simon Rattle recorded a complete Jungle Book cycle, but I won't hold my breath. :)

Who knows. I think he has a knack for the French rep. I really like his L'enfant et le sortilèges, as well as his La Mèr and Messiaen Eclairs discs.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 01, 2015, 06:15:48 PM
Who knows. I think he has a knack for the French rep. I really like his L'enfant et le sortilèges, as well as his La Mèr and Messiaen Eclairs discs.

Same here. Us Koechlin fans will just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 12:43:09 AM
Certainly the world would be a better place if more orchestras replaced yet another La Mer rendition with a Koechlin.
I have a hunch some Koechlin might get shoved through my letterbox next week.
And this is a quiet neighbourhood!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2015, 07:41:31 PM
My review of the Holliger Le Docteur Fabricius recording on Hanssler:

Charles Koechlin (1867-1950) occupies an interesting place in music history. His music is seen as the link between Debussy and Messiaen. Much of Koechlin's music is textural and atmospheric, but there is always a rhyme and reason to the music. Koechlin, born in Paris, wanted to become an astronomer in his early age, but his father wanted him in the military. Once young Koechlin contracted tuberculosis his dreams of astronomy came to a halt and he then decided to devote his life to another passion: music. Koechlin received his training from Jules Massenet, but once Massenet stepped down, Gabriel Faure became his main teacher and an influence on his music. Koechlin became a noted teacher, though he never held a permanent teaching position, but he was widely admired by his peers and had some noteworthy students like Francis Poulenc. Even though Koechlin isn't a household name like a Ravel or Stravinsky, his music is just as distinctive as his contemporaries. The music of Charles Koechlin draws its inspiration from many sources: Kipling's "The Jungle Book," Hollywood movies, among other eclectic subjects.

Now, onto this excellent recording, Hanssler set out to record many of Koechlin's works and have done so successfully. In the orchestral recordings, Heinz Holliger leads the Stuttgart Radio Symphony. In this particular release, two works receive their world premieres: "Vers la Voûte étoilée" and "Le Docteur Fabricius" and both works reveal the many facets of Koechlin's style. "Vers la Voûte étoilée" starts off as very static and builds in texture. This is an 11-minute work that, towards the end,, explodes with some of the most wonderful brass and string playing, which slowly quietens down to the mediative beginning. "Le Docteur Fabricius" is a tour-de-force of sounds. It features a prominent role for ondes martenot, but the instrument is so tastefully used that it's never intrusive for the listener. There are some absolutely gorgeous slow movements in this work that are so subtle that it may take a few listens to catch their beauty.

The performances from the Stuttgart Radio Symphony, the conducting of Heniz Holliger, and the audio quality are exemplary. I can't think of a more satisfying disc I've encountered in quite some time. As a result of this recording, I ended up buying all of the Holliger-led recordings. If you like this recording, then pick up the rest of the series and, if you can find it, David Zinman's recording of "The Jungle Book," which is seen as Koechlin's masterwork.

Highly recommended for anyone with a remote interest in 20th Century French composers or Impressionism in general.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on August 05, 2015, 05:06:27 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71HkLGygZ0L._SX355_.jpg)
I'm curious if anyone knows this recording or these compositions.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: listener on August 05, 2015, 07:01:07 PM
scores are available through http://www.lmi-partitions.com/search-engine/1/30/d
including Dr. Fabricius    Be prepared to cut the caviar budget though.
I was lucky to have ordered it before the Canadian dollar crashed, but it did eliminate a lot of other things I could have bought.

Coming up in November 13 NOVEMBRE 2015
CHARLES KOECHLIN - OFFRANDE MUSICALE SUR LE NOM DE BACH
Orchestre symphonique
Concert interprété par : Porto symphonic orchestra dir : Heinz Holliger   Casa da Musia - Porto, Portugal

I thought I saw a score listing, will edit this if I find it again.     Hah!  http://www.billaudot.com/_pdf/composers/koechlincatalogue.pdf
show it on page 21 ' rental only, but there is a copy on amazon for $275. if you need it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 09, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
I wish we had good recordings of the two numbered symphonies. There is some fascinating music!

Symphony nr .1: https://youtu.be/TgqjFx4Vlgc

Symphony nr. 2 : https://youtu.be/LQs8uvx3PAM

The second symphony has a part for (at least1) ondes Martenot.

P.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2015, 11:54:42 AM
I was hoping Heinz Holliger would continue his Koechlin series on Hanssler, but this doesn't look like it's going to happen. A shame as there's so much more to record like those symphonies you mention, pjme.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: NikF on August 09, 2015, 08:55:44 PM
I've only one CD by Koechlin -

(http://i.imgur.com/OccLsyV.jpg)

I find it poorly recorded (in fact on first hearing I considered it maybe a bootleg/needle drop) and while if I like a piece/performance well enough I can usually live with less than stellar sound, I find this CD a bit too much. I haven't read all this thread yet, but I'll do so and hopefully find suggestions for another recording.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
I've only one CD by Koechlin -

(http://i.imgur.com/OccLsyV.jpg)

I find it poorly recorded (in fact on first hearing I considered it maybe a bootleg/needle drop) and while if I like a piece/performance well enough I can usually live with less than stellar sound, I find this CD a bit too much. I haven't read all this thread yet, but I'll do so and hopefully find suggestions for another recording.

Can't say I've heard that recording and I definitely don't own it. For the Seven Stars' Symphony, if you can find James Judd's performance on RCA, then that's an excellent recording. Personally, I'm not overly enthusiastic about this work. It's okay but not up to Koechlin's usual excellent standards. Seek out the Holliger conducted recordings on Hanssler. Those offer brilliant musicianship and stellar audio quality. Also, The Jungle Book on RCA with David Zinman is absolutely essential in addition to those afore mentioned Hanssler recordings.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: NikF on August 09, 2015, 09:10:25 PM
Can't say I've heard that recording and I definitely don't own it. For the Seven Stars' Symphony, if you can find James Judd's performance on RCA, then that's an excellent recording. Personally, I'm not overly enthusiastic about this work. It's okay but not up to Koechlin's usual excellent standards. Seek out the Holliger conducted recordings on Hanssler. Those offer brilliant musicianship and stellar audio quality. Also, The Jungle Book on RCA with David Zinman is absolutely essential in addition to those afore mentioned Hanssler recordings.

Ah, I should have pointed out it's the Ballade pour piano et orchestre I'm after. Posting in the early hours while still half asleep...!
But thanks for the suggestions of the Holliger on Hanssler and Zinman on RCA - Koechlin is someone I definitely want to hear more of and so such recommendations are much appreciated.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
Ah, I should have pointed out it's the Ballade pour piano et orchestre I'm after. Posting in the early hours while still half asleep...!
But thanks for the suggestions of the Holliger on Hanssler and Zinman on RCA - Koechlin is someone I definitely want to hear more of and so such recommendations are much appreciated.

Oh, okay. I don't know of any other recording of the Ballade for piano and orchestra. You're welcome about the recommendations. It would be nice, and probably wishful thinking, if Hanssler would put out a Koechlin set of all their recordings (incl. solo piano and chamber music), but I don't think this will happen.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 10, 2015, 01:08:29 AM
Although I find Bruno Rigutto's performance of the Ballade for piano and orchestra well prepared and refined, we could do with a new recording.
The Ballade exists in a solo version, which can be found on this disc:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/full/3375250113600.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on August 10, 2015, 02:02:14 AM
I love Vers La Voute Etoilee and Persian Hours in both the piano and orchestral versions.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2015, 02:06:19 AM
I love Vers La Voute Etoilee and Persian Hours in both the piano and orchestral versions.

+1
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2015, 02:07:13 AM
The Paysages marines, too, I find wonderful (pf solo).
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin (1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on August 10, 2015, 02:41:13 AM
The Paysages marines, too, I find wonderful (pf solo).

Must look out for this Karl:

  :)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: vandermolen on August 10, 2015, 02:43:17 AM
However, not yet Karl as it is over £40 on Amazon UK  :o
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2015, 02:48:16 AM
However, not yet Karl as it is over £40 on Amazon UK  :o

Yeesh!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 10, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Charles-Koechlin-1867-1950-Klavierwerke-Vol-1-des-jardins-enchantes/hnum/1224753

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w220/front/0/4010276020523.jpg)

Now for 16,99 euro at JPC

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 10, 2015, 02:58:50 AM
Stout fellow, Peter!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 11, 2015, 12:47:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/UqLdITP6HO0

On CPO:

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/770/1068770.jpg)

These "Chorals" for wind orchestra need a new recording...

https://www.youtube.com/v/LLiUTB0Bw2E

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2015, 02:17:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/UqLdITP6HO0

On CPO:

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/770/1068770.jpg)

Thanks for this, Peter!  That is a disc I have;  but I have not seen the piece in score . . . interesting that, Satie-like, he eschews barlines even when the music is perfectly regular, metrically.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on August 12, 2015, 02:36:27 AM

These "Chorals" for wind orchestra need a new recording...

https://www.youtube.com/v/LLiUTB0Bw2E

Peter
This disc is outstanding (but probably OOP):

(http://img.cdandlp.com/2014/11/imgL/115970641.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 12, 2015, 05:01:41 AM
Yes that is indeed the (only) recording of these Chorals for "open air festivals/ popular festivals". But the sound is dated and definitely not top notch.
If I'm not mistaken they are on Spotify.

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 12, 2015, 10:46:37 PM
I ordered this book ( French only): Koechlin, compositeur et humaniste.

(https://books.google.be/books/content?id=uK6ns2Egl-4C&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE71E0FWXsJbF-tnI7PptNDlQ5yC-qkHZ39-IWkpsA0hGxV2tCSf9edt69v5-bWd5NSz8CpUAGwsvQfyY-x9ZzvWLyHsA22yrG5w7P9OV_l4hrix-Qln0h-TWKQs7sla7Bkmkbx7j)

It has a very detailed description and study of the second symphony - written during WW2 ( Chostakovitch was working on his eight symphony).Scored for a fairly normal large orchestra , it includes parts for 4 ondes Martenot.
It is the only symphony Koechlin conceived from the beginning as a symphony, not using older material or orchestrating an existing work.

Peter.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: The new erato on August 13, 2015, 01:24:05 AM
Yes that is indeed the (only) recording of these Chorals for "open air festivals/ popular festivals". But the sound is dated and definitely not top notch.
If I'm not mistaken they are on Spotify.

Peter
It's a bad CD transfer. I have the CD and the LP, and the LP sound is staggering (and far, far better than the CD) - demonstration quality! So what we really need is a new remastering.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 13, 2015, 03:05:26 AM
Aha!
So I should try to find the LP...(i had it, many years ago, but I gave all my Lps away...)

still, it would be nice to have at least one new performance!

I'm sure some Norwegian wind ensemble would be delighted to perform this , combined with similar works ...

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 13, 2015, 03:37:44 AM
It's a bad CD transfer. I have the CD and the LP, and the LP sound is staggering (and far, far better than the CD) - demonstration quality! So what we really need is a new remastering.

Zowie.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on August 13, 2015, 07:25:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71HkLGygZ0L._SX355_.jpg)
I'm curious if anyone knows this recording or these compositions.
I guess this one wasn't a big hit.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on August 13, 2015, 09:46:22 PM
http://www.jeanpierreferey.com/Source/Home.html

AFAIK, Ferey is a talented & serious pianist. But Koechlin's piano music is "not popular"...

Peter
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: milk on August 15, 2015, 08:22:18 AM
http://www.jeanpierreferey.com/Source/Home.html

AFAIK, Ferey is a talented & serious pianist. But Koechlin's piano music is "not popular"...

Peter
I like the "Les heures persanes" and "Paysages Et Marines." I'm curious about the preludes since they're late works.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: NikF on August 16, 2015, 01:50:04 AM
Although I find Bruno Rigutto's performance of the Ballade for piano and orchestra well prepared and refined, we could do with a new recording.
The Ballade exists in a solo version, which can be found on this disc:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/naxos/full/3375250113600.jpg)

Noted. And thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Spineur on April 12, 2016, 10:14:01 AM
I managed to listen to this recording a couple of times in the past two weeks, and I asked a friend of mine what he knew about this work.  He sent me a short essay (in french), and after google translate+some cleanup from my part, I am happy to share it with you.

Notes on the Jungle Book Koechlin

On top of Charles Koechlin composition “The Jungle Book”, by Rudyard Kipling.
 
This is a vast symphonic poem consisting of four parts: the Law of the Jungle op. 175 (1934), the Bandar-log op. 176 (1939-1940), Meditation of Purun Bahgat op. 159 (1936) and the Spring Racing op. 95 (1911-1927). Three older pieces, the three poems for soloists, chorus and orchestra op. 18 can come between Meditation of Purun Bahgat and Run Spring.
 
The order desired by the composer does not follow closely that of Kipling, meanwhile, who changed the book into two volumes in its final edition in 1897. The Law of the Jungle belongs to Second Jungle Book, but it is at the top of the orchestral suite. On the other hand, Koechlin made a selection in The Books of Kipling's Jungle with a total of more than four parts. But the operated selection stresses the symbolism present in Kipling masterpiece.  Finally clarifications, about the original titles:  the Bandar-Log refer to the "Road Song of the Bandar-Log", "The Miracle of Purun Bahgat" becomes "Meditation of Purun Bahgat. "
 
Koechlin lived with this work so long in his life (he worked there from 1899 to 1950) reveals it importance in his mind. The permanence of this creation also pays quite well to one of the directions of this book, that of education, a symbolic journey of man. If the quality of a symbolic writing lies in its ability to be read at different levels, no doubt everyone will be sensitive to Koechlin partition. This is the jungle! We find everything, and everything is more beautiful: rhythms, melodies, colors, harmonic maps, orchestral scenes etc.
 
The law of the jungle is a fundamental mystery, the prelude to social life. It is therefore not the "law of the jungle" as might ordinarily understand today. The mystery is drawn by the winds - especially in the brass - and symphonic ensemble works on a repeatable define sentence with an oriental fashion. The law is strong. Woe to him who does not respect it. And the law is love, as shown in the spring race.
 
The Bandar-log, are the monkeys that Kipling, in general, depicts number of defects, especially laziness. For Koechlin, monkeys, are the minds locked into systems, spirits led by opinions, fashions. They are easily recognized, with strong mischievous talent of the composer, in neoclassical style, atonal or polytonal. Then the masters that Baloo and Bagheera represent scare away the jungle then finds serenity.
 
Meditation Bahgat Purun, Purun the Holy man, elevates us in the Himalayan heights. Purun, former Prime Minister of Maharajah, became a hermit. In the orchestra, which Koechlin uses all the resources of ascension scale is modal polyphony. The mountain collapses on the villagers, but the wise man does not remain in his prayers. He asked them to leave their homes and shouts "Leave none behind, we follow".  The wise man lives in ideas but his action can still 'prove essential for his company’. And Koechlin must think a little role of guru he is ...
 
The spring race is the final of the Jungle Book. The little man became a man. He will join men and leave his friends in the forest. "Man goes to Man!" It is also the law of change, of transformation, of separation. All around Mowgli awake and he runs because he feels that the time for a new language approach. He left his masters that have these words: "From now we follow new paths". Koechlin wanted to give a lesson that it would not be taken as otherwise firstly, references, allusions between the situation of the musician-Mowgli and his release are quite clear. On the other hand, the polyphonic demonstration is striking - the presence in the orchestra of a piano, an organ ... Be careful for this release, you must know the law - it ' is to say, all that tradition of music has brought.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2016, 05:34:03 PM
Thanks for the info. Perhaps a fair question at this juncture would be how did you like The Jungle Book? What are your impressions of it?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Spineur on April 13, 2016, 07:09:48 AM
Overall, I liked it a lot, although the musical styles are quite different, since the different pieces were composed over such a long period of time.  Only the Op. 18 has some overlap with Ravel style (no 2 remind me of the chansons madecasses).  Everything else is quite different.  As noted by you and my fiend in his essay, the orchestration is fabulous.  And as he say, "La loi de la jungle" is a towering summit.  That piece, but that piece alone, is IMHO one of the top 10 compositions of the 20th century.

In Zinman recording, the pieces are ordered by opus numbers, not according to the order specified by Koechlin, which is not the order in Ruyard Kipling book either.  Since I converted everything to flac,  I will reorder the different pieces as Koechlin specifies, and I will tell you if this does changes my overall impressions.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on April 13, 2016, 08:42:26 AM
I don't know if someone has put these YT recordings on GMG?

Sound quality is poor, but good enough to discover a few major koechlin scores:

Symphony nr 1

https://www.youtube.com/v/TgqjFx4Vlgc

Symphony nr 2

https://www.youtube.com/v/Wj2yktTsspU

Hymne au soleil

https://www.youtube.com/v/-cYUVHlkWlE

La cité nouvelle

https://www.youtube.com/v/smI-UXUGSCY

Nuit de Walpurgis ( really poor sound...)

https://www.youtube.com/v/aLjpwbhXQNo

Hymne à la nuit

https://www.youtube.com/v/sjkipI5cIKI
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2016, 08:45:25 AM
I don't know if someone has put these YT recordings on GMG?

Sound quality is poor, but good enough to discover a few major koechlin scores:

Symphony nr 1

https://www.youtube.com/v/TgqjFx4Vlgc

Symphony nr 2

https://www.youtube.com/v/Wj2yktTsspU

Hymne au soleil

https://www.youtube.com/v/-cYUVHlkWlE

La cité nouvelle

https://www.youtube.com/v/smI-UXUGSCY

Nuit de Walpurgis ( really poor sound...)

https://www.youtube.com/v/aLjpwbhXQNo

Thanks!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: pjme on April 13, 2016, 09:24:06 AM
Koechlin's second symphony (contemporary of Chostakovitch nr 8, William Schuman nr 5, RVW nr 5, Walter Piston nr 2, Blomdahl nr 1, Roy Harris nr 6, Milhaud nr 2, ....) is an imposing and very complex work.
Large orchestra: woodwinds à 4, 6 horns, 4 trumpets & trombones, tuba, 2 sax, celesta, multiple percussion, timpani,xylophone, vibraphone,  marimba, organ, piano, 4 ondes Martenot, strings.
5 movements:
Fugue sur un sujet d'Ernest le Grand ( le Grand (1870-1955) pupil of Fauré and Koechlin)
Scherzo: l'âme libre et fantasque
Andante ( suite de 6 chorals)
Fugue modale sur un sujet de Catherine Urner (Catherine Urner (1891-1942) american pupil & close friend/lover of Koechlin)
Final

The "Fugue modale" exists in two versions: one with 4 Martenots, one without.

Polytonality, archaic modality, contrapuntal mastery...brillant orchestration and a wonderful sense of "progression"... Would love to hear it in a good, modern recording!

P.

Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2016, 01:57:11 PM
Overall, I liked it a lot, although the musical styles are quite different, since the different pieces were composed over such a long period of time.  Only the Op. 18 has some overlap with Ravel style (no 2 remind me of the chansons madecasses).  Everything else is quite different.  As noted by you and my fiend in his essay, the orchestration is fabulous.  And as he say, "La loi de la jungle" is a towering summit.  That piece, but that piece alone, is IMHO one of the top 10 compositions of the 20th century.

In Zinman recording, the pieces are ordered by opus numbers, not according to the order specified by Koechlin, which is not the order in Ruyard Kipling book either.  Since I converted everything to flac,  I will reorder the different pieces as Koechlin specifies, and I will tell you if this does changes my overall impressions.

The order of the Zinman has always puzzled me since, as you mentioned, is the not the order Koechlin had requested. Glad to hear the work made a good impression overall. If you're interested, there's another recording of the complete Jungle Book available with Stuart Bedford conducting the Orchestre National de Montpellier L.-R. on the Musicales Actes Sud label. I think since this release it's been reissued. Anyway, this recording follows the correct order. The only caveat to my mind is that it's a live recording that has included applause after each piece. Pretty annoying, but I'm sure if you rip the disc you can add faders on the end of each track to cut the applause out. I'm actually going to try this myself via iTunes. We'll see how this goes! 8)

P.S. I do need to revisit this work and specifically listen to La loi de la jungle. It must be good! I can't remember it right now.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Scion7 on April 16, 2016, 11:11:40 PM


Anyone had a look at this book?  It delves into areas Robert Orledge apparently was uncomfortable to address.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419TKHWKYYL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on November 12, 2017, 09:03:00 AM
I've finally landed on the shores of Koechlin Country


My but does he ramble on and on!!



He always seems somewhat restrained and full of vague melodies that wander and meander about- it's all very pleasant but I find a certain quality of anonymity that leaves me a little Meh.

The Violin, Cello, and Viola Sonatas all seemed a bit loose limbed for me,... the Oboe Sonata (Daniel/Drake) goes on for 30mins.!! I did enjoy the much shorter BASSOON SONATA, and the very lovely FLUTE SONATA. The Tuckwell horn CD is great playing, but, it does seem like a LOT of horn there, lol.

String Quartets 1-3: No.2 is the BigOne, and essential for understanding, but, I just wasn't carried away :(


The Wind Septet, some of the other Ensemble Music,... I dunno, I feel like I should be on hospital drugs listening to this stuff :( :(


Koechlin DOES stand apart from all the other overtly French Composers- his flute works don't ever seem to make it on any Poulenc-styled recital. His works seem to belong to him alone. I SHOULD LOVE HIM ON PAPER, but it's just not translating for me- I have F :(ldman for this kind of mood...


So far, the bassoon and flute sonatas are what I've enjoyed is that it??????
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2017, 09:05:15 AM
Oh well, I love Koechlin and have praised his individuality for years. It’s always important to remember: “One person's garbage is another person's treasure."
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on November 12, 2017, 09:10:28 AM
Your suspicion i wrong, Actually they are pretty ordinary and slightly dull.

Oh well, I love Koechlin and have praised his individuality for years. It’s always important to remember: “One person's garbage is another person's treasure."

I recall your discovery here on the Thread... still, 33 Pages is a lot to wade through!!

I don't think garbage/treasure is the right analogy though,... it's not that great a rgulf!!! Maybe all the other Miniature Frenchy Stuff has me in a shorter mood span?



NEW ERATO????
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2017, 10:17:30 AM
One listen to Le buisson ardent, Parts I & II from the Holliger-led performance on the Hänssler label (w/ the Stuttgart RSO) and I became an admirer of his music. There are some composers where it takes me quite some time to come to appreciate, but with Koechlin, it was instantaneous.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 12, 2017, 11:50:13 AM
I’m not sure if this newer release has been talked about, but I’d love to know what some of you (who have heard it of course) think about it:

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/4260330918239.jpg?1445425248)

I bought it a few days ago.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: snyprrr on November 13, 2017, 09:24:05 AM
One listen to Le buisson ardent, Parts I & II from the Holliger-led performance on the Hänssler label (w/ the Stuttgart RSO) and I became an admirer of his music. There are some composers where it takes me quite some time to come to appreciate, but with Koechlin, it was instantaneous.

I have yet  to hear any Orchestral Music,... that's probably where I'd enjoy some things, though I don't know how enthused about '7 Stars' I am... 'Buisson' seems to be the one work that intrigues me the most...


Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Parsifal on November 13, 2017, 09:36:46 AM
I've finally landed on the shores of Koechlin Country


My but does he ramble on and on!!

That was my reaction.  I listened to this disc.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41p0c%2BSnFQL._SS500.jpg)

Very pretty sonorities, just seemed to drift aimlessly, despite having an explicit program. By then I had acquire one or two other Koechlin recordings but never listened to them.

An exception, there is one great piece by Koechlin that really impressed me, the Idylle for two clarinets. One minute thirty seconds in length. No time for digression.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZbNmuTIL._SS500.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 13, 2017, 10:21:14 AM
That was my reaction.  I listened to this disc.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41p0c%2BSnFQL._SS500.jpg)

Very pretty sonorities, just seemed to drift aimlessly, despite having an explicit program.

I am going to agree with ramble and drift, but will repeat that I enjoy this score, in particular.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Parsifal on November 13, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
I am going to agree with ramble and drift, but will repeat that I enjoy this score, in particular.

I'm compelled to admit that this recording made an impression. There are many discs of piano music I have listened which I enjoyed but  from which I cannot call to mind a single musical idea. I do have recollections of this disc. But I mostly recall my frustration that these pretty passages would materialize randomly out of nowhere, than dissolve into nothing. In any case, I was not left with any impulse to listen to anything else by Koechlin.

In addition to a disc or two from the Hanssler series of orchestral music, I have two discs of string quartets. Maybe the form would impose some sort of discipline on Koechlin's wandering brain.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 13, 2017, 10:53:03 AM
I’m not sure if this newer release has been talked about, but I’d love to know what some of you (who have heard it of course) think about it:

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/4260330918239.jpg?1445425248)

I bought it a few days ago.

Hi John - I listened to that recording on Spotify a week ago and really enjoyed being a 'wind nut'! :)  Then looked for some reviews and found a bunch (3 are attached as a PDF file for review, if interested) - as a result, I ordered the CD from JPC across the pond for about 5 Euros - should reach me soon.  If you enjoy Koechlin's Chamber Music and the oboe, then a definite recommendation from me.  Dave
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 01:48:02 PM
Hi John - I listened to that recording on Spotify a week ago and really enjoyed being a 'wind nut'! :)  Then looked for some reviews and found a bunch (3 are attached as a PDF file for review, if interested) - as a result, I ordered the CD from JPC across the pond for about 5 Euros - should reach me soon.  If you enjoy Koechlin's Chamber Music and the oboe, then a definite recommendation from me.  Dave

Thank you, Dave. I’m kind of a ‘wind nut’ myself. Sounds like it’s right up my alley, but I love Koechlin anyway, so it didn’t take much convincing. ;)
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: king ubu on November 15, 2017, 12:42:31 AM
the new Koechlin sets available (click images to enlarge):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91sjwWBf8QL._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rr6XkncjL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91fbIGGKX9L._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ukDEH-X1L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Orchestral set I've got fully covered: discs 1 & 2 are the former "Vocal Works with Orchestra" set, then follow the five other orchestral discs (including the *Magicien orchestrateur" one), all RSO Stuttgart/Holliger.

However, in the Chamber Works I've got a gap or two and can't figure out if those can be filled by single discs - having the three Korstick discs (CDs 5-7), the "Music for Clarinet" (CD 1), "Chamber Music with Flute" (CD 2 #4-24) and "Chansons bretonnes" (there these two boxes have a gap), it would be a bit annoying having to get the new box.

What I'm missing is:
- the flute sonata (disc 2 #1-3)
- all of disc 3 (Portrait de Daisy Hamilton plus Oboe and Bassoon sonatas w/piano, french horn solo sonata, Stèle funéraire for 3 flutes)
- the viola sonata (disc 4 - the "Chansons bretonnes" disc instead has Debussy's cello sonata and is thus 20 minutes shorter).

Have those been released previously on SWR/Hänssler? Or did they but them from elsewhere? In the current index on their website, the only reference for these pieces is the box:
http://www.swrmusic.de/pages/t3_KomK_1516_w.html
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 15, 2017, 06:15:01 AM
the new Koechlin sets available (click images to enlarge):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91sjwWBf8QL._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rr6XkncjL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91fbIGGKX9L._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ukDEH-X1L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Orchestral set I've got fully covered: discs 1 & 2 are the former "Vocal Works with Orchestra" set, then follow the five other orchestral discs (including the *Magicien orchestrateur" one), all RSO Stuttgart/Holliger.

However, in the Chamber Works I've got a gap or two and can't figure out if those can be filled by single discs - having the three Korstick discs (CDs 5-7), the "Music for Clarinet" (CD 1), "Chamber Music with Flute" (CD 2 #4-24) and "Chansons bretonnes" (there these two boxes have a gap), it would be a bit annoying having to get the new box.

What I'm missing is:
- the flute sonata (disc 2 #1-3)
- all of disc 3 (Portrait de Daisy Hamilton plus Oboe and Bassoon sonatas w/piano, french horn solo sonata, Stèle funéraire for 3 flutes)
- the viola sonata (disc 4 - the "Chansons bretonnes" disc instead has Debussy's cello sonata and is thus 20 minutes shorter).

Have those been released previously on SWR/Hänssler? Or did they but them from elsewhere? In the current index on their website, the only reference for these pieces is the box:
http://www.swrmusic.de/pages/t3_KomK_1516_w.html

Even with the redundancies, that is a temptation.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2017, 06:26:12 AM
the new Koechlin sets available (click images to enlarge):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91sjwWBf8QL._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81rr6XkncjL._SL1200_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91fbIGGKX9L._SL1500_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ukDEH-X1L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Orchestral set I've got fully covered: discs 1 & 2 are the former "Vocal Works with Orchestra" set, then follow the five other orchestral discs (including the *Magicien orchestrateur" one), all RSO Stuttgart/Holliger.

However, in the Chamber Works I've got a gap or two and can't figure out if those can be filled by single discs - having the three Korstick discs (CDs 5-7), the "Music for Clarinet" (CD 1), "Chamber Music with Flute" (CD 2 #4-24) and "Chansons bretonnes" (there these two boxes have a gap), it would be a bit annoying having to get the new box.

What I'm missing is:
- the flute sonata (disc 2 #1-3)
- all of disc 3 (Portrait de Daisy Hamilton plus Oboe and Bassoon sonatas w/piano, french horn solo sonata, Stèle funéraire for 3 flutes)
- the viola sonata (disc 4 - the "Chansons bretonnes" disc instead has Debussy's cello sonata and is thus 20 minutes shorter).

Have those been released previously on SWR/Hänssler? Or did they but them from elsewhere? In the current index on their website, the only reference for these pieces is the box:
http://www.swrmusic.de/pages/t3_KomK_1516_w.html

None of the orchestral discs that were released individually contain La Méditation de Purun Baghat. I’m not sure when this work was recorded and why it wasn’t released with the other recordings in their original form. I’m going to have to see if there’s a download for this work since I don’t need that orchestral set as I own all of the individual releases like you.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: king ubu on November 15, 2017, 06:40:35 AM
None of the orchestral discs that were released individually contain La Méditation de Purun Baghat. I’m not sure when this work was recorded and why it wasn’t released with the other recordings in their original form. I’m going to have to see if there’s a download for this work since I don’t need that orchestral set as I own all of the individual releases like you.

Right! I had seen that but forgot about it when I wrote the post above ... hm. Form the Chamber set I miss quite a bit but getting the Orchestra set for just that ... this IS annoying!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2017, 06:51:56 AM
Right! I had seen that but forgot about it when I wrote the post above ... hm. Form the Chamber set I miss quite a bit but getting the Orchestra set for just that ... this IS annoying!

Indeed. As I mentioned, I hope I can find that work as a download or something.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: king ubu on November 15, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Indeed. As I mentioned, I hope I can find that work as a download or something.

Well, I have the Zinman recording now, so that's alright ... might go for the chamber set just fill the gaps though.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Mirror Image on November 15, 2017, 08:49:15 AM
Well, I have the Zinman recording now, so that's alright ... might go for the chamber set just fill the gaps though.

Yeah, I bought the chamber set not too long ago. I’m not as familiar with Koechlin’s chamber music as I should be. This will change soon enough.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2018, 08:07:00 AM
Thought I would revise this thread...

Seeing as many have contributed to this thread already (and many years ago), I would like to see where Koechlin stands with all of you today? Does his music still interest you? Have you discovered any more works that you're particularly impressed with?

Got any recommendations?

I only have Zinman's and Segerstam's recordings, but I have ordered many of the recordings offered by Hanssler with Holliger conducting.

Maybe I missed it if you have commented before, John . . . what are your thoughts on Zinman VS. Segerstam here?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2018, 08:09:15 AM
Yes, the live applause after the end of each piece is what turned me of to this specific recording. I only own Zinman's and Segerstam's, which the Segerstam as you probably know is incomplete. I think Zinman has the edge over Segerstam as well. I think the orchestra plays better and the audio quality has better clarity.

Ah!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2018, 08:53:24 AM
Careful Nate! John tricked me into wasting $ on The Jungle Book!
You've been warned!

 >:D :laugh: :P

Actually I liked his chamber music and small scale stuff. Just not the bloated behemoth orchestral stuff.

You don't care for La Méditation de Purun Bhagat??!!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2018, 09:03:27 AM
Well, I just read the thread from start to . . . today.

It was . . . kind of nostalgic, in unexpected ways.  Revisiting posts by both Sara (Lethevich) and Luke.  And (now) Scarps.

But it was really straightforward research . . . I needed to know if I should fetch in the Zinman or Segerstam recording of Jungle Book, and the discussion here was super helpful.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Zeus on August 06, 2018, 11:19:42 AM
The crowds chant: Zin - Man!  Zin - Man!  Zin - Man !!!

But can you trust the wisdom of crowds?
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 06, 2018, 11:59:29 AM
Because of the current Jungle Book discussion, my curiosity was piqued, so I played this CD:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wgPeLNR9L._SL1262_.jpg)

My first reactions: extremely singular and fantastic music in there. Where had these works been all my life? I already knew his string quartets (btw, wonderful), but these works exceeded my expectations by far. The orchestration and the atmosphere Koechlin created in these works are with no equal. I'll have to give them more listens to get their secrets.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Rons_talking on August 07, 2018, 02:43:24 AM
Because of the current Jungle Book discussion, my curiosity was piqued, so I played this CD:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wgPeLNR9L._SL1262_.jpg)

My first reactions: extremely singular and fantastic music in there. Where had these works been all my life? I already knew his string quartets (btw, wonderful), but these works exceeded my expectations by far. The orchestration and the atmosphere Koechlin created in these works are with no equal. I'll have to give them more listens to get their secrets.

I agree 100%. His sound-world is so unique and advanced. Perhaps not every work of his is great, but there is greatness in much of his music. I stumbled upon Jungle Book on the back of a Messiaen  LP as a student...lucky me!
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2018, 03:52:13 AM
I give La méditation de Purun Bhagat an A+, and to Les Bandar-log and La course de printemps, an A each.  While I am sure I shall enjoy the Op.18 poems (one reason why I was predisposed to the Zinman rather than the Segerstam), it was especially my eagerness to hear La loi de la jungle which drove my urgency for a complete Jungle Book.

One thing I am finding of immediate interest:  the Zinman timings for the Opp. 95, 159 & 176 are quicker than Holliger’s—in the case of the Opp. 159 & 176, significantly quicker:

Op. 95
Zinman
— 31:54
Holliger — 33:11

Op. 159
Zinman — 13:45
Holliger — 16:00

Op. 176
Zinman
— 16:31
Holliger — 20:24

I do not find any of the Holliger performances at all languorous, so I am curious about the effect of Zinman’s tempi.

Another reflection of my having combed through the entire thread yesterday:  ’tis a mild pity, that the timing of my enthusiasm for the Jungle Book is out of joint with John’s.  I suppose (and this is general, nothing specific to John, of course) historically I have found that the enthusiasm of another does not reliably translate to myself.

Anyway, could just be my own musical biorhythms:  this is the season for my bungle in the Jungle Book.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: André on August 07, 2018, 05:02:43 AM
Because of the current Jungle Book discussion, my curiosity was piqued, so I played this CD:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wgPeLNR9L._SL1262_.jpg)

My first reactions: extremely singular and fantastic music in there. Where had these works been all my life? I already knew his string quartets (btw, wonderful), but these works exceeded my expectations by far. The orchestration and the atmosphere Koechlin created in these works are with no equal. I'll have to give them more listens to get their secrets.

Zinman (or the disc producer) lays out the works chronologically, thus chronicling the composer’s evolution over a period of 50 years. Koechlin, however, had other ideas. Being a natural born original, he decided on a different playing order when the cycle was finished: opus 175, 176, 18, 95 and 159. There is a logic to this madness. In doing so, Koechlin was simply following Kipling’s order in Jungle Book. Thus we move freely from ivesian spareness to canteloubesque lushness, and everything in-between.

I had a friend burn the Zinman performances in the right order, so I can listen to the work in logical or chronological order. I haven’t made up my mind about which one is the most musically effective. Bedford’s set is the only one to have the poems in the composer’s stated order. I have yet to hear it. Anyone did ?

Note on opus 18: Zinman’s tenor is horrible, and Segerstam didn’t record it.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Biffo on August 07, 2018, 05:53:55 AM
Zinman (or the disc producer) lays out the works chronologically, thus chronicling the composer’s evolution over a period of 50 years. Koechlin, however, had other ideas. Being a natural born original, he decided on a different playing order when the cycle was finished: opus 175, 176, 18, 95 and 159. There is a logic to this madness. In doing so, Koechlin was simply following Kipling’s order in Jungle Book. Thus we move freely from ivesian spareness to canteloubesque lushness, and everything in-between.

I had a friend burn the Zinman performances in the right order, so I can listen to the work in logical or chronological order. I haven’t made up my mind about which one is the most musically effective. Bedford’s set is the only one to have the poems in the composer’s stated order. I have yet to hear it. Anyone did ?

Note on opus 18: Zinman’s tenor is horrible, and Segerstam didn’t record it.

Someone, possibly you, posted Koechlin's order before. The Bedford recording is no longer available (unless it has been recently reissued) so I ordered a copy from zoverstocks (I think). I received a disc of Brahms First Symphony. I returned it and got a refund.  I suppose it wouldn't be difficult to upload the Zinman set to my PC and play it in the correct order, just haven't got round to it yet.
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: André on August 07, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
I put Bedford’s account in my cart. It’s new, so presumably it won’t morph into a Brahms symphony:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5158RyiQmKL.jpg)

Asin number: B0013FDTOA
Title: Re: Charles Koechlin(1867-1950)
Post by: Iota on March 03, 2019, 11:46:00 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wguUwWRrL._SX355_.jpg)

Koechlin Piano Quintet

Quintette Syntonia


Not quite sure how he does it, but Koechlin seems to conjure up extraplanetary harmony and timbres all his own. I think sometimes the refinement of the timbre makes the harmony seem even more exotic than it already is. Be that as it may, the consequence is some pretty rarefied moods. If you've ever felt life has offered you too few opportunities to abseil dreamily down existential chasms for example, there are moments in this quintet that may offer you the chance to address that lacuna.

He seems pretty free in his approach to form in this piece. The structure of the third movt seems almost arbitrary, like mist lifting when it's done, rather than being shaped by any formal influence. In this case, that meant it felt a bit long to me. But it contains some ecstatically beautiful music, which I sort of never wanted want to end. But then as I say, it sort of never did. It's only about 10 minutes long, but towards the end, it felt to me like the exotic-harmony equivalent of 3 minutes worth of the closing bars of Sibelius 5. The also-extremely-lovely last movt, though only a minute and a half shorter, seemed a model of concision by comparison.

Anyway despite that, extraordinary and transfixing music, that I greatly enjoyed.