Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

[Mirror Image]

I already know and like those works.  I don't know the symphonies though.  My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto.  I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.

What about Four Hymns for chamber ensemble, Labyrinths, Gogol Suite, Sketches, Cello Sonatas 1 & 2, the Concerti Grossi, all of the PCs, the SQs, etc.?

[relm1]

* Symphony No. 6/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Ok, something interesting is happening.  I don't know if Schnittke's symphonies are getting better or I am getting more accustomed to them since I am listening daily.  I was expecting something more in the line of No. 5 but this is sparser yet still engaging.  I am enjoying this traversal and it makes me want/need to explore him more.    I do find the Adagio of this symphony to remind me somewhat of Mahler 10 adagio...almost as if Schnittke is a transitional composer between eras.
* Symphony No. 7/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Interesting how early symphonies were massive and as they progressed they became more intimate.  Unmistakably the same composer (lots of cluster blasts) but still unique.  Clusters alternate with thematic material.  This is probably the evolution of collage.  Old + new=Schnittke.

I am sad that I have only one CD left in my traversal and that Schnittke is no longer with us.  He would probably be at Symphony No. 14 by now and exploring new territory.

[Karl Henning]

* Symphony No. 1/Gennady Rozhdestvensky on Chandos: Too much collage.  It had its moments by overall it drove me crazy.

You say that like it's a bad thing 

[Mirror Image]

* Symphony No. 6/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Ok, something interesting is happening.  I don't know if Schnittke's symphonies are getting better or I am getting more accustomed to them since I am listening daily.  I was expecting something more in the line of No. 5 but this is sparser yet still engaging.  I am enjoying this traversal and it makes me want/need to explore him more.    I do find the Adagio of this symphony to remind me somewhat of Mahler 10 adagio...almost as if Schnittke is a transitional composer between eras.
* Symphony No. 7/Tadaaki Otaka on BIS: Interesting how early symphonies were massive and as they progressed they became more intimate.  Unmistakably the same composer (lots of cluster blasts) but still unique.  Clusters alternate with thematic material.  This is probably the evolution of collage.  Old + new=Schnittke.

I am sad that I have only one CD left in my traversal and that Schnittke is no longer with us.  He would probably be at Symphony No. 14 by now and exploring new territory.

By the time of his Symphony No. 6, Schnittke's style had changed and he left behind the more polystylistic elements of his earlier style in favor of something more sparse and emotionally inward. This is where some listeners jumped ship, but those that continued to listen, had found, as I did, that this was the direction his music was going in for years. Those extroverted works where he exploits all kinds of genres of music in a cohesive fashion seem like they were composed by a completely different man compared to his later works. I love all periods of Schnittke's development (even his Shostakovich-inspired student works), but a work like Symphony No. 8 is a testament to what this composer is about with that Lento movement alone speaking volumes of his own mental and spiritual state. I'm sure you will find much enjoyment in this symphony.

[relm1]

* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint.  The central Lento doesn't feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted.   Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies.  I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal.  Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn't feel cynical but extremely heartfelt.  I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony.   A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke.  The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but...
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8.  Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement.  Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with.  I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying. 

Conclusions:
•   The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative.  Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
•   If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn't have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now.  Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
•   The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler.  In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich.  For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to.  In Schnittke we hear this in his collage.  I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: "It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going."
•   It did take some time for me to get into the "sound world" that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0. 

[Karl Henning]

* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint.  The central Lento doesn’t feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted.   Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies.  I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal.  Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn’t feel cynical but extremely heartfelt.  I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony.   A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke.  The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but…
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8.  Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement.  Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with.  I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying. 

Conclusions:
•   The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative.  Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
•   If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn’t have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now.  Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
•   The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler.  In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich.  For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to.  In Schnittke we hear this in his collage.  I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: “It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going.”
•   It did take some time for me to get into the “sound world” that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0. 

Most interesting, thanks.

[snyprrr]

String Quartet No.4

One can surely not deny that the Alban Berg Quartet bring refinement and sophistication, and their 'live' performance of Schnittke's last SQ brings out any and all "Old World" feelings that this most inward of Schnittke scores presents. I hadn't really payed attention much to the opening movement, apparently, because this time I heard all the micro-tonal ennui that caught my ear. It seems Schnittke was trying to perfect the effect of "nausea", and here one can feel the shifting moods of angst and despair very well.

This is a long piece, and meaty and weighty, and seems to me to be DSCH's 18th SQ,... I believe Schnittke set out to make a DSCH SQ, and that this is what we got. I certainly will continue with this piece as an appendage of DSCH's legacy.

I'm going to call it a Masterpiece of 'Gotterdammerung' Music, the last gasp of 'Ultra-Late Romanticism' before the final flickering out (snuffing out?) of the light by the forces of darkness. How much more "towards the graveyard" can one go in music of such profound blackness? Sure, we could have special-effects of graveyard sounds, but here Schnittke sticks strictly to emotional states,- "human" feelings as opposed to "macabre".

I profer that there is no piece of Schnittke more representative of his deepest personal statement than this piece, and it is not the most easygoing endeavor to get to the end- but it stands as a huge monument, a gravestone, to what will never be again.

I already know and like those works.  I don't know the symphonies though.  My favorite is the piano quintet and viola concerto.  I also enjoy his film music quite a bit.

I just popped for the Bashmet/TCA Viola Concerto. I may actually not ever have heard this, being I'm totally getting it confused with Penderecki's of the same era. But, everyone says it's their favorite piece, so, I look forward with expectation.

The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?

[Karl Henning]

The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?

This was one of my very first Schnittke purchases, and I love it.

But, of course, you know I also love the Emersons playing Shostakovich, je-je-je-jeh.


[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]

[snyprrr]

This was one of my very first Schnittke purchases, and I love it.

But, of course, you know I also love the Emersons playing Shostakovich, je-je-je-jeh.


[asin]B000000AZA[/asin]

Well, I mean, the BIS is really the only other option (Melodiya, ...meh). I can certainly see the Chandos being superior, but, sometimes those BIS discs have a ineffably mushy texture that helps in such 'misterioso' works as 3-4.

And what of Jurowski in 3? again, vs. BIS?

[The new erato]

Jurowski's 3rd is superb (listening to it now); but I cannot compare it to BIS, and my Schnittke credentials in general are very moderate.

[Mirror Image]

* Symphony No.8/Jia Lu on BIS: This is a very moving symphony with elegance and restraint.  The central Lento doesn't feel pessimistic to me but rather retrospective and deeply introverted.   Though the orchestra is large, its full presence is rarely heard (pretty much it waits to the IV movement) making its impact even greater than the earlier symphonies.  I have never heard this beautiful symphony before and very glad to have encountered it as the culmination of a traversal.  Schnittke has covered so much ground stylistically and the music doesn't feel cynical but extremely heartfelt.  I loved the unresolved ascending cluster that ended the symphony.   A transformative conclusion and I can see what Mirror Image means by saying this symphony is the culmination of Schnittke.  The ending of this symphony leaves me hungry for more but...
* Symphony No. 9/Owain Arwell Hughes on BIS:
In retrospect, I feel the perfect ending to the cycle would be with No. 8.  Sort of like how Bruckner No. 9 in three movements feels so complete even though the Berlin/Simon Rattle recording with the completed 4th movement is probably what was intended, the cycle feels complete with the serene ending after the tumult that came before rather than triumph that comes with the 4th movement.  Basically, after hearing No. 9 in the reconstructed version by Aleksander Raskatov, I prefer the feeling that No. 8 left me with.  I am glad we have a performable version of No. 9 but feel the cycle was already fully satisfying. 

Conclusions:
•   The Mahler and Shostakovich roots are heard but the music is never derivative.  Schnittke was a truly individual symphonist.
•   If I had listened to the symphonies individually, I wouldn't have felt Schnittke to be a major 20th century symphonist the way I feel now.  Each symphony is unique and there is a clearly individual and developing voice from the start.
•   The trend is certainly towards reduction of ideas but the same could be said of Mahler.  In fact, one could almost surmise that Schnittke is the spiritual kin to Mahler more than he is of Shostakovich.  For instance, Mahler incorporated the sounds he was exposed to.  In Schnittke we hear this in his collage.  I feel this quote from Mahler could apply to Schnittke as well: "It is strange how one feels drawn forward without knowing at first where one is going."
•   It did take some time for me to get into the "sound world" that he inhabits but this is why I am glad to have started out with No. 0.

Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start. I'm glad to hear your impressions of Symphony No. 8 pretty much mirror my own. I cannot think of any other late 20th Century symphony that has had greater impact on me than this one. Since you've enjoy the 8th so much I urge you to check out the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. I know, I know, some people here are probably tired of me beating this dead horse, but it certainly is preferable to any other performance I've heard including the Lu and Polyansky.

As for the 9th, I really enjoy it in all it's skeletal glory. The Dennis Russell Davies performance on ECM is the best one available IMHO. It may not be a fully satisfying conclusion to the cycle, but it is very interesting in it's sonorities and general mood. Schnittke was heading into a new direction with the 9th, I'm just saddened that he never got the chance to 'finish' it.

[relm1]

Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start. I'm glad to hear your impressions of Symphony No. 8 pretty much mirror my own. I cannot think of any other late 20th Century symphony that has had greater impact on me than this one. Since you've enjoy the 8th so much I urge you to check out the Rozhdestvensky performance on Chandos. I know, I know, some people here are probably tired of me beating this dead horse, but it certainly is preferable to any other performance I've heard including the Lu and Polyansky.

As for the 9th, I really enjoy it in all it's skeletal glory. The Dennis Russell Davies performance on ECM is the best one available IMHO. It may not be a fully satisfying conclusion to the cycle, but it is very interesting in it's sonorities and general mood. Schnittke was heading into a new direction with the 9th, I'm just saddened that he never got the chance to 'finish' it.

Cheers fellow Schnittkian.  I will check out the Rozhdestvensky No. 8 on Chandos tomorrow.  Question for you about No. 9.  Since you are clearly more experienced with Schnittke than I am, is the work more Raskatov than Schnittke?  To me, it just didn't ring true to what I came to hear of Schnittke.

[Mirror Image]

Cheers fellow Schnittkian.  I will check out the Rozhdestvensky No. 8 on Chandos tomorrow.  Question for you about No. 9.  Since you are clearly more experienced with Schnittke than I am, is the work more Raskatov than Schnittke?  To me, it just didn't ring true to what I came to hear of Schnittke.

I think one thing to bear in mind whenever you listen to the 9th is that it's really not a final musical statement. Schnittke was obviously very ill during the time of composition and therein lies the problem with the legibility of the score of itself. I think, if anything, Raskatov took something that was clearly impossible to get right in terms of preciseness and did a good job with it. Sure, it's not a work that comes across as Schnittkian, but that's simply because it wasn't completed. It was a rough draft and I do mean rough. But, despite whatever warts it appears to have or whether Raskatov took some liberties with the score, I still enjoy it for what it is (or perhaps what it isn't). It's certainly not something I reach for when I want my Schnittke fix, but, at the same time, it is fun to revisit on occasion.

Here's an informative article on the 9th that may shed some light on it for you:

http://www.willcwhite.com/2009/04/schnittke-symphony-no-9/

[Mirror Image]

The only items left of Schnittke's that I'm interested in would be the Symphonies 3-4, which recordings should I go for?

Klas' recording on BIS is still the best recording of the symphony available IMHO. I think the newer Jurowski is pretty good, but lacks the fire and intensity present in Klas' performance. As for the 4th, I prefer Kamu on BIS. A much more atmospheric reading that seems to only add to the mysticism of the work. Polyansky, by contrast, is harsher and less dynamic. I suppose a revisit to the Polyansky, and the Jurowski 3rd, wouldn't hurt, but these are just my initial reactions.

[relm1]

I think one thing to bear in mind whenever you listen to the 9th is that it's really not a final musical statement. Schnittke was obviously very ill during the time of composition and therein lies the problem with the legibility of the score of itself. I think, if anything, Raskatov took something that was clearly impossible to get right in terms of preciseness and did a good job with it. Sure, it's not a work that comes across as Schnittkian, but that's simply because it wasn't completed. It was a rough draft and I do mean rough. But, despite whatever warts it appears to have or whether Raskatov took some liberties with the score, I still enjoy it for what it is (or perhaps what it isn't). It's certainly not something I reach for when I want my Schnittke fix, but, at the same time, it is fun to revisit on occasion.

Here's an informative article on the 9th that may shed some light on it for you:

http://www.willcwhite.com/2009/04/schnittke-symphony-no-9/

Thanks for the link.  I am sorry to be a jerk but this does not sway me.  It is just an opinion and mine differs and I don't see a reason to adjust my opinion.  I do acknowledge that Raskatov had a challenging job.  I too have had challenging jobs to typeset handwritten scores that were of very poor quality and that has nothing to do with the quality of the work.  Ultimately this does not make much impact to me.  I am used to seeing that level of penmanship when enlisted to work on jobs like this and the musical impact is what we are talking about now.  The effort taken to realize it is substantial but the quality of the music is debatable. 

[snyprrr]

Klas' recording on BIS is still the best recording of the symphony available IMHO. I think the newer Jurowski is pretty good, but lacks the fire and intensity present in Klas' performance. As for the 4th, I prefer Kamu on BIS. A much more atmospheric reading that seems to only add to the mysticism of the work. Polyansky, by contrast, is harsher and less dynamic. I suppose a revisit to the Polyansky, and the Jurowski 3rd, wouldn't hurt, but these are just my initial reactions.

those BIS disc just have that something special don't they mm hmm

[Mirror Image]

Thanks for the link.  I am sorry to be a jerk but this does not sway me.  It is just an opinion and mine differs and I don't see a reason to adjust my opinion.  I do acknowledge that Raskatov had a challenging job.  I too have had challenging jobs to typeset handwritten scores that were of very poor quality and that has nothing to do with the quality of the work.  Ultimately this does not make much impact to me.  I am used to seeing that level of penmanship when enlisted to work on jobs like this and the musical impact is what we are talking about now.  The effort taken to realize it is substantial but the quality of the music is debatable.

I'm not trying to sway you or even convince you of anything, you clearly asked me a question and I gave you my answer. It's perfectly fine that you disagree with me and I'm not trying to argue or beat you over the head with my opinion. Like I said, I enjoy it for it is and not for what it could've or should've been. I also did not say anything about the work being somehow substantial just because it had to be deciphered, I simply said that the task was a daunting one for Raskatov.

All of this said, no work by Schnittke can match the ones I mentioned before IMHO. He wrote a lot of music and is quite uneven, but at his best, he really could move mountains so to speak. For me, he's a composer that challenges me, but, at the same time, gives me a lot of satisfaction. I always come away from a Schnittke work with some kind of appreciation even if the work didn't click with me.

[Mirror Image]

those BIS disc just have that something special don't they mm hmm

Not all of the performances do. I think Polyansky easily beats Segerstam in the 2nd (a difficult symphony to take in on first-hearing or even on a fourteenth hearing). I also think the 6th and 7th have been better performed by Polyansky. The 8th in the BIS set (w/ Lu) is one of the worst performances of the whole series and not to my liking at all. It seems to lack an atmosphere of mystery and a sharper focus which the Rozhdestvensky has in spades (again, my preferred choice of the three performances I own). The 9th with Hughes on BIS is pretty ghastly, thus, making the Dennis Russell Davies on ECM my preferred choice.

[Wieland]

Thank you for doing this and you've done a service whether you realize it or not, especially to those wanting to get into Schnittke's symphonies, but not knowing where to start.

Well, I took the call. I have to admit that for a very long time I have avoided to listen to Alfred Schnittke's music. I didn't like very much his string quartets and some of the more famous pieces of his polystilistic period. This changed recently when I came across an old Melodiya LP with Natalie Gutman playing the 1st cello concerto. That unbelievable perfomance put Schnittke again on the map for me. I had the box with the ten symphonies sitting in my collection for at least two years, unheard. Now I took the call and listened to symphony 8. And already on first hearing I have to say that this is a very remarkable piece. The mahlerian Lento movement is just what I am looking for in music, very moving. Such loneliness. And the end of that symphony is just as fantastic. Thanks for this suggestion. I will study this piece in more detail. And I understand that I need to have the Rozh performance.

[Mirror Image]

Well, I took the call. I have to admit that for a very long time I have avoided to listen to Alfred Schnittke's music. I didn't like very much his string quartets and some of the more famous pieces of his polystilistic period. This changed recently when I came across an old Melodiya LP with Natalie Gutman playing the 1st cello concerto. That unbelievable perfomance put Schnittke again on the map for me. I had the box with the ten symphonies sitting in my collection for at least two years, unheard. Now I took the call and listened to symphony 8. And already on first hearing I have to say that this is a very remarkable piece. The mahlerian Lento movement is just what I am looking for in music, very moving. Such loneliness. And the end of that symphony is just as fantastic. Thanks for this suggestion. I will study this piece in more detail. And I understand that I need to have the Rozh performance.

This is really great to hear, Wieland. I can't seem to recall liking Gutman's performance of the Cello Concerto No. 1 as Ivashkin on Chandos is more my cup of tea, but, regardless, it's always a good thing to hear someone else who connects to Schnittke's sound-world. Trust me, my own journey wasn't an easy one either and it ended up being a costly one as well (I sent most of the CDs I had acquired to another member here). But then one day, I forget which work I was listening to, but something just finally clicked with me. It might have been sitting down and absorbing Peer Gynt that helped me finally understand the genius of the composer. I'm not sure if you would prefer the Rozhdestvensky in Symphony No. 8 or not as there were several reviewers on Amazon that preferred Polyansky (also on Chandos), but that's no matter, as long as you like the music --- the performance of your choice will be a matter of personal preference. I've just always liked Rozhdestvensky for the intensity he brought to the music. That Lento movement you spoke about is really something else in the Rozhdestvensky. He turns it into a lament or requiem of sorts. Really haunting.

I look forward to conversing more with you about Schnittke and I don't believe I've seen you around, so it's nice to make your acquaintance.