Sherlock Holmes Concert Mystery: What Was Played?

[Cato]

Recently we watched the Disney cartoon-movie The Great Mouse Detective with a detective mouse named Basil (a reference to Basil Rathbone) chasing after a rat (voiced by Vincent Price).

Spliced into the cartoon is a line from one of the Basil Rathbone movies, which is actually a line from a Holmes story (The Red Headed League):

Holmes says to Watson:

"There's a good deal of German music on the programme, which is rather more to my taste than French or Italian. It is introspective and I want to introspect. Come along."

So can one deduce what was played at the concert?   

There is one clue for you.  In the cartoon Watson is heard commenting: "But Holmes, that music is frightfully boring."   

My possibilities (keeping in mind that 19th-century programs were longer):

Beethoven: Grosse Fuge
Brahms: Violin Concerto
Mendelssohn: Fingal's Cave
Wagner: Prelude to Tristan und Isolde

Also possible: the concert was NOT orchestral!  Perhaps a piano recital or a chamber group.  What would be on that program?

[jwinter]

That's one of our favorite movies -- I've watched it with the kids many times (though I had it well before the kids -- I'm a life-long Holmes nut).

Given Holmes' well-known habit of playing the violin when trying to think out a puzzle, I think something featuring the violin would be highly likely (he wants to "introspect").  That, plus Watson's declaring it boring, would suggest chamber music to me (a big romantic violin concerto like Brahms or Beethoven, if you're not into it, may be loud, or confusing, or irritating, but boring?). 

I think you're on the right track mentioning the Grosse Fuge.  Personally, I immediately thought of Bach -- I think counterpoint and fugal form would be just Holmes' cup of tea (and not Watson's).  Perhaps Bach's sonatas or partitas, or some violin & piano sonatas from Beethoven.  I'm not sure how often Baroque music would have been on Victorian music programs though -- although you could read Holmes' statement as somewhat implying that the prevalence of introspective German music on this particular program was rather unusual, so that's why he wanted to check it out. 

Hmmm, a three-pipe problem, I believe...

[Cato]

That's one of our favorite movies -- I've watched it with the kids many times (though I had it well before the kids -- I'm a life-long Holmes nut).

Given Holmes' well-known habit of playing the violin when trying to think out a puzzle, I think something featuring the violin would be highly likely (he wants to "introspect").  That, plus Watson's declaring it boring, would suggest chamber music to me (a big romantic violin concerto like Brahms or Beethoven, if you're not into it, may be loud, or confusing, or irritating, but boring?). 

I think you're on the right track mentioning the Grosse Fuge.  Personally, I immediately thought of Bach -- I think counterpoint and fugal form would be just Holmes' cup of tea (and not Watson's).  Perhaps Bach's sonatas or partitas, or some violin & piano sonatas from Beethoven.  I'm not sure how often Baroque music would have been on Victorian music programs though -- although you could read Holmes' statement as somewhat implying that the prevalence of introspective German music on this particular program was rather unusual, so that's why he wanted to check it out. 

Hmmm, a three-pipe problem, I believe...

Fascinating reply! 

I chose the Brahms Violin Concerto because I knew a young woman once who measured classical-concert boredom by asking the question: "Is it going to be like the Brahms Violin Concerto?"   

[Wilhelm Richard]

Not sure if this is in the spirit of your original post, but the answer can be found in the lines just above the one in question...
"Saraste plays at St. James Hall this afternoon."  (and, as was pointed out, Watson only comments on the boring nature of German music in the cartoon)

Pablo Martin Meliton Saraste y Navascues was a violinist who, according to William S. Baring-Gould, Holmes would have heard play his own Gypsy Airs, Caprice Basque, Zapateado as well as Bruch's Scottish Fantasy and MacKenzie's Pibroch Suite.

[jwinter]

Not sure if this is in the spirit of your original post, but the answer can be found in the lines just above the one in question...
"Saraste plays at St. James Hall this afternoon."  (and, as was pointed out, Watson only comments on the boring nature of German music in the cartoon)

Pablo Martin Meliton Saraste y Navascues was a violinist who, according to William S. Baring-Gould, Holmes would have heard play his own Gypsy Airs, Caprice Basque, Zapateado as well as Bruch's Scottish Fantasy and MacKenzie's Pibroch Suite.

Excellent!  I figured someone from the good old BSI would have covered this, but as I'm at work I couldn't look it up. 

But, an observation:  most of the above is not German.  I suppose Max Bruch counts (though it is a Scottish Fantasy), but I don't think that list matches well with what Holmes describes as "a good deal of German music on the programme."  One could make the argument that Conan Doy... err [cough]... Dr. Watson isn't too familiar with classical music, and might not be able to tell German from Italian, but not Holmes, and it seems an odd way in which to misquote him.

Hmmm... no, I fear these may be deeper waters....  (drat, need a deerstalker emoticon...)

[Cato]

Excellent!  I figured someone from the good old BSI would have covered this, but as I'm at work I couldn't look it up. 

But, an observation:  most of the above is not German.  I suppose Max Bruch counts (though it is a Scottish Fantasy), but I don't think that list matches well with what Holmes describes as "a good deal of German music on the programme."  One could make the argument that Conan Doy... err [cough]... Dr. Watson isn't too familiar with classical music, and might not be able to tell German from Italian, but not Holmes, and it seems an odd way in which to misquote him.

Hmmm... no, I fear these may be deeper waters....  (drat, need a deerstalker emoticon...)

Yes, how "Germanically introspective" is the Bruch really?  It might fit Watson's opinion of the concert      but I am not sure Holmes would see it that way.

Bach of course is always a good choice for introspection, as mentioned above.

If it is a recital for piano, is there anything more introspective than Beethoven's last Piano Sonata Opus 111?

[Brian]

Given Holmes' well-known habit of playing the violin when trying to think out a puzzle, I think something featuring the violin would be highly likely (he wants to "introspect").  That, plus Watson's declaring it boring, would suggest chamber music to me (a big romantic violin concerto like Brahms or Beethoven, if you're not into it, may be loud, or confusing, or irritating, but boring?). 

Excessively slow performances of the Beethoven Violin Concerto can become very boring, very fast. 

[Bogey]

Excellent!  I figured someone from the good old BSI would have covered this, but as I'm at work I couldn't look it up. 

But, an observation:  most of the above is not German.  I suppose Max Bruch counts (though it is a Scottish Fantasy), but I don't think that list matches well with what Holmes describes as "a good deal of German music on the programme."  One could make the argument that Conan Doy... err [cough]... Dr. Watson isn't too familiar with classical music, and might not be able to tell German from Italian, but not Holmes, and it seems an odd way in which to misquote him.

Hmmm... no, I fear these may be deeper waters....  (drat, need a deerstalker emoticon...)

Will this do, JW?

[Bogey]

Do you mind if this becomes a Holmes thread after a bit, Cato?

[jwinter]

Will this do, JW?

[jwinter]

Excessively slow performances of the Beethoven Violin Concerto can become very boring, very fast. 

Yes, I suppose you have a point there, though I've luckily managed to avoid those in my listening.  I greatly enjoy the VC, but it's not up there with the symphonies & PCs, at least for me.

[DFO]

"Holmes" named also  Willma Norman-Neruda (Lady Halle) in one of the stories. A
famous violinist in her time. Probably Conan Doyle listened her live.

[Cato]

Do you mind if this becomes a Holmes thread after a bit, Cato?

Evolution is inevitable, unless entropy kicks in!   

It struck me that Schubert's Winterreise might be something Holmes would find introspective.

[Bogey]

A long overdue reboot:

As posted on the movie thread, my wife and I just took in the Sherlock movie.  Two things to know:

1. I am a huge fan of Doyle's works.  Some of the best fiction I have ever read.
2. Like some here, I thought the best portrayal of Holmes to date has been the Jeremy Brett run.  I own these as well and never tire of revisiting them.

Now, when I saw the previews for the new movie I could not help but cringing.  So, I went into the movie with VERY low expectations for them keeping to the books.  In short, besides some references and characters, they were not close, IMO.  However, Downey Jr. is just so stinking fun to watch that I ended up enjoying the movie once I let go of the books.  Closer to an Indiana Jones detective than the sleuth we know from 221.

So, if you go into it for a fun, and yes, explosive ride, you will enjoy it.  If your mission is to poke holes in it based on the original, then you better sharpen your blade.

Ah, it may be time for an avatar change! (My final one from the old GMG forum....consider it a "return of". )

[knight66]

We intend to see the film in a couple of days as a family outing.  I agree re Brett. I had already realised from the trailer that it would have little to do with the stories by Conan Doyle. The mere fact of who is playing Watson underscores that this is a total makeover.

Mike

[Cato]

A long overdue reboot:

As posted on the movie thread, my wife and I just took in the Sherlock movie.  Two things to know:

1. I am a huge fan of Doyle's works.  Some of the best fiction I have ever read.
2. Like some here, I thought the best portrayal of Holmes to date has been the Jeremy Brett run.  I own these as well and never tire of revisiting them.

Now, when I saw the previews for the new movie I could not help but cringing.  So, I went into the movie with VERY low expectations for them keeping to the books.  In short, besides some references and characters, they were not close, IMO.  However, Downey Jr. is just so stinking fun to watch that I ended up enjoying the movie once I let go of the books.  Closer to an Indiana Jones detective than the sleuth we know from 221.

So, if you go into it for a fun, and yes, explosive ride, you will enjoy it.  If your mission is to poke holes in it based on the original, then you better sharpen your blade.

Ah, it may be time for an avatar change! (My final one from the old GMG forum....consider it a "return of". )

Who composed the soundtrack?  Was it any good?

For The Great Mouse Detective (mentioned as the impetus for the topic), Disney hired Henry Mancini of all people.  There is a very amusing song in it called The World's Greatest Criminal Mind sung by Vincent Price!

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw0HlB54CIw

[Carolus]

About Holmes actors, IMO nobody was better that Basil Rathbone.

[Bogey]

Who composed the soundtrack?  Was it any good?

For The Great Mouse Detective (mentioned as the impetus for the topic), Disney hired Henry Mancini of all people.  There is a very amusing song in it called The World's Greatest Criminal Mind sung by Vincent Price!

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw0HlB54CIw

It was Hans Zimmer, Cato.  What surprised me, is that I did not recognize it as so.

[Bogey]

About Holmes actors, IMO nobody was better that Basil Rathbone.

They lost me by having most of them taking place during WWII and making Watson a duffer.  This second point is what really does these movies in for me.  However, I have put a few of them in my Netflix queue and will give them a watch with this in mind and try to enjoy them as I did the new film no matter how far they wander from the Doyle works.   As for Rathbone himself and just focusing in on him as Holmes, I will give this a fair look as well. 

[Cato]

They lost me by having most of them taking place during WWII and making Watson a duffer.  This second point is what really does these movies in for me.  However, I have put a few of them in my Netflix queue and will give them a watch with this in mind and try to enjoy them as I did the new film no matter how far they wander from the Doyle works.   As for Rathbone himself and just focusing in on him as Holmes, I will give this a fair look as well.

Basil Rathbone remains the ultimate Holmes, which is why The Great Mouse Detective is known as "Basil of Baker Street."

Nigel Bruce was perfect as a bumbling, comic-relief Watson in those movies, but if you don't like Watson as a bumbler, blame the script adaptations.   0:)