Mystery Comparison - Mahler 5th!

[M forever]

Greta, I didn't participate - but I confess to downloading all the clips!

Booooooo! 

Well, at least you "confess" to be a lurker... Do you also lurk in Mystery Orchestra? Or didn't you post there a few times? I don't remember right now.

I must be of a rare mental disposition because I just couldn't listen through six clips of Mahler's Trauermarsch - too emotionally draining. That's the reason I listen to Mahler not that often, although I like his music very much.

Same here, old chap, same here. I found this very hard to listen to with full concentration, several times over and then some more, all the more since I am kind of on a "Mahler diet" right now, especially when it comes to some pieces like the 1st or 5th.

But this is really great listening practice and, after only spotchecking here and there (kind of like, "well, *one small bite* doesn't hurt my diet, hmm, maybe another one, a really small one, but that's really it"  ) and guessing around a little bit spontaneously and in some cases wildly, I "forced" myself to listen to all the clips and analyze them carefully.

Which had some really great benefits for me because it was a great listening exercise and allowed me some new insights into my own listening process and habits, so it was really worth it. 

Sitting one's ass down and actually writing a comment and posting it is also extremely beneficial, not because one "has" to, but in order to do so, one has to really collect and focus one's thoughts and come to a conclusion - even if it's only a tentative or undecided one. But even then, one has to think about why one can't arrive at a definitive conclusion, which elements seem to be clear and which aren't, and where the contradictions or open questions really are.

Besides, it is obvious how much work Greta put into selecting and posting the clips, I think it is kind of disrespectful to listen to them and not say anything. Which I mean just as a general remark, not "aimed" at you - everyone has to do decide for him/herself. But that's how I personally feel.



This was a great, highly interesting and very challenging comparison round. The clips were all really interesting, in one way or another, and yeeeeees, really well chosen. 
There was an interesting variety of interpretations and orchestral styles to sample, some really surprising things to hear and challenging things to figure out - that's the way such a comparison game should be.

[M forever]

A
Sir Charles Mackerras
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra
1990, EMI

I have that disc. After I had sat down and figured out it must be a very good British orchestra, I checked which recent recordings I have which fit that description - it sounded like a rather recent recording to me. I have this as well as Gatti, Zander, and Shipway. But then I resisted the temptation to compare them to the clip because I didn't want to cheat. Especially since that recording had somewhat confused me at first and I needed some serious concentrated listening and analyzing, that would have been totally hollow and pointless anyway. And dishonest.
I only listened to it once a few years ago and found it a little disappointing. Very well played, competently directed, but rather faceless. I had expected something a little more "special" or at least "specific" from him. Could that have been because I expected something somehow different or simply because it isn't so "outstanding"? This blind test was interesting because it confirmed my initial impression without the expectations from before or new expectations, maybe to find something "special" after all because Mackerras is a conductor I really have a lot of respect for.

One thing that would really still interest me is if it is actually John Wallace playing the solo trumpet, or another British trumpet player from the same "stables". He never held a position in that orchestra, but British orchestras often interchange players, it is not at all uncommon for them to bring in outstanding players like he is for special projects. It doesn't *quite* sound like him, but that could also be the very bright and hard recording. Or it could be someone else, they have a lot of really good brass players on the loose in Britain.
I heard Wallace play this piece live with the Philharmonia under Sinopoli, and it was absolutely extramegaspecial, one of the best concerts in general and some of the best trumpet playing I have ever heard. And all live just as good as on any superedited recording...
You can make the comparison yourself - Wallace can be heard on Sinopoli's DG recording.



B
Claudio Abbado
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
1980, Deutsche Grammophon

Yes, I tried both the hot dog with the poppy seed bun and the deep dish pizza as well as the CSO at Orchestra Hall when I was in Chicago recently. That was pretty recognizeable, as was the fact that it couldn't be Solti or Barenboim.


C
Michael Gielen
SWR Sinfonie Orchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg
2003, Hanssler

Veeeery interesting. I knew there was something specific there that reminded me of the kind of sound the SWR orchestras (there are two of them, but they both sound basically exactly the same and players from both help out in the other ensemble regularly) produce, that's why I mentioned that. The trumpets and trombones sound rather bright and open for a German orchestra, the trumpets rather more even than the SD, although some elements of the timing and ensemble play of the brass sound rather similar to the SD or CP at times. All these orchestras have that mix between that kind of bright and edgy brass and a very deep string sound.
What totally led me in the wrong direction was the oboe sound which sounds really slender and nasal. I could have done a little cheating and compared (a friend of mine has the whole Gielen box) or researched that a little - turns out one of their principal oboes is from Brazil and studied and played in the US before. The other is a Holliger student. That also fits the description. Aha!!!!!
But I think it was still wrong to allow myself to speculate about what an Eschenbach recording of this could sound like with the Philadelphia Orchestra - which generally isn't very far away from this kind of sound, I think. I haven't heard any recent recordings of them though. I have the Heldenleben under Sawallisch but only listend to it a little bit here and there, and no Eschenbach with them, I think, certainly no Mahler.
Didn't I say myself in Mystery Orchestra that people shouldn't speculate about what some peoples' interpretations could sound like. Turns out I had a good point there. Maybe I should listen to myself a little more in the future 

This is also rather more indulgent and sentimental than I would have expected it from Gielen. I have never heard any of his Mahler except that I played the 4th under him once, but that was rather different from this here. But then the piece is also rather different.


D
Pierre Boulez
Wiener Philharmoniker
1996, Deutsche Grammophon

Yes, that was totally obvious from the first moments. This nicely illustrates that while there are many, many very good orchestras and quite a few competent and even a few interesting conductors around, few ensembles and conductors are really very outstanding in the sense of standing out. This does, head and shoulders above all the rest, as good as most of that is in itself.


Bonus 1
Christoph Eschenbach
Houston Symphony Orchestra
Dec. 1992, private label
Musikverein,Vienna

That dawned on me yesterday while I was posting my final comments. Sorry, but the way you reacted about the increasingly negative comments about this clip (and not just from me) totally gave away that you were somehow "rooting" for someone there..."and I think that orchestra played the heck out of Mahler 5th that night".
That sounded very defensive, somehow local and strangely interested in making those bad opinions go away somehow. You shouldn't do that as a Mystery Host, I think, at least not before the clips are revealed, but then this is your thread and you can do what you want!
Anyway, I thought about that a little and remembered the picture you posted of yourself "on the way to symphony hall". Hmmm...what symphony hall...since you live in SE Texas, could it be...Houston? And then it became all clear and I did my only piece of cheating by looking up a Mahler discography, and there it said CHRISTOPH ESCHENBACH, Houston Symphony Orchestra (rec. December 7, 1992 at a concert in the Musikvereinssaal, Vienna). So that's what Eschenbach's Mahler sounds like. So obviously it isn't him and therefore most likely not the Philadelphia Orchestra either in C. But I decided against editing the already typed part of my post since I did not arrive at that conclusion by listening. 

Given those circumstances and emotional connections, I would rather not expound on my earlier comments about the clip as I had promised to do. I hope you can excuse me from that. I really don't want to get into trouble here!  0:)  0:)


Bonus 2
Claudio Abbado
Berliner Philharmoniker
May 1995, MahlerFeest, limited release
Concertgebouw, Amsterdam

Yes, that was immediately obvious, from the little trumpet booboos alone. I have that complete set and I did actually go to that to verify that, that's why I didn't comment any further on the clip. Sure, I could have pretended to have figured it out by listening, but that's not the point here.  0:) 0:) 0:)

[MishaK]

But I think it was still wrong to allow myself to speculate about what an Eschenbach recording of this could sound like with the Philadelphia Orchestra - which generally isn't very far away from this kind of sound, I think. I haven't heard any recent recordings of them though. I have the Heldenleben under Sawallisch but only listend to it a little bit here and there, and no Eschenbach with them, I think, certainly no Mahler.

There is an Eschenbach/Philly Mahler 9 on operashare, if you care.

I did hear Eschenbach do Mahler 1 with Philly live in Frankfurt two, three years ago which was outstanding and far less mannered than this Mahler 5 clip posted by Greta. On that basis, I would have never guessed Eschenbach for the first bonus clip, though I have heard him give a similarly schizo and mannered Dvorak 9 with the NYPO once.

Anyway, the Boulez and Abbado clips were indeed very recognizable. Though I thought the second bonus was the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, given the live nature. Wasn't aware of the BPO live performance. The Mackerras is interesting in that Mackerras clearly spent some time fine-tuning the timbre of the orchestra. There are some genuinely Viennese moments there that threw me off. This is something I noticed a few times when I heard him live with the Orchestra of St. Luke's. He is clearly very careful to get colors and textures right, but then the performances sometimes just don't really take off, just like this Mahler 5.

[Que]

Well, at least you "confess" to be a lurker... Do you also lurk in Mystery Orchestra? Or didn't you post there a few times? I don't remember right now.

Yes, I did participate in MO 16 (Strauss), and one post in MO 17  .

Same here, old chap, same here. I found this very hard to listen to with full concentration, several times over and then some more, all the more since I am kind of on a "Mahler diet" right now, especially when it comes to some pieces like the 1st or 5th.

But this is really great listening practice and, after only spotchecking here and there (kind of like, "well, *one small bite* doesn't hurt my diet, hmm, maybe another one, a really small one, but that's really it"  ) and guessing around a little bit spontaneously and in some cases wildly, I "forced" myself to listen to all the clips and analyze them carefully.

Which had some really great benefits for me because it was a great listening exercise and allowed me some new insights into my own listening process and habits, so it was really worth it. 

Mahler's music really just gets to me. And that's good, I guess - that's what it is supposed to do!
Like someone at a Mahler concert in the Concertgebouw (Haitink/ 7th) said to me: "people pay good money to listen to a Mahler performance, in order to feel utterly depressed..." 

I agree that these exercises provide valuable listening experiences and insights.
Both of you keep it up - I'll pitch in a next round!

Besides, it is obvious how much work Greta put into selecting and posting the clips, I think it is kind of disrespectful to listen to them and not say anything. Which I mean just as a general remark, not "aimed" at you - everyone has to do decide for him/herself. But that's how I personally feel.

I know, Greta did a great job!
But since I didn't give the clips a proper listening, I wasn't able to give any well founded comments.

Q

[Greta]

Anyway, I thought about that a little and remembered the picture you posted of yourself "on the way to symphony hall". Hmmm...what symphony hall...since you live in SE Texas, could it be...Houston? And then it became all clear and I did my only piece of cheating by looking up a Mahler discography, and there it said CHRISTOPH ESCHENBACH, Houston Symphony Orchestra (rec. December 7, 1992 at a concert in the Musikvereinssaal, Vienna).

Is this a new level of Mystery game snooping or what? I have to admit, M, the comments were a little on purpose. I apologize! We were already near the end, and it seemed a stumper, so, some not-so-veiled hints. But I would love to hear your negative comments, M! I'm too close in reference and have listened to it a lot and I'm not a very objective listener anyway. If I like something, I like it, regardless of how idiosyncratic. Even in the other mystery threads I notice I tend to like some recordings that others don't, and I perhaps don't know enough, historically, to make valid judgments as to successful conducting. These games and participating at this forum have made me question my own listening a lot too. 

I didn't pick the Houston recording because of local associations, though that is neat, but as it is a very interesting recording for many reasons. I won't pretend that it's not idiosyncratic, that there's not sketchy intonation in the trumpet/viola solo in the Trauermarsch, and odd recorded sound, but there is a lot of intensity too, and he makes some compelling, musical points. You never know *quite* where he is going, but somehow you want to find out, which I love. With Boulez it's *completely* the opposite and very clear, so I love him too. The inner movements are where Eschenbach hits a stride, he and Bernstein/WP have my favorite Sturmisch bewegt so far, and the Adagietto is quite long and atmospheric, almost like a musical prayer, much heart and attention to a gossamer texture. The way the orchestra responds to his direction is fascinating here. He really takes it as far as it can go in some places, and I don't mean tempo, it is very affecting to me. So much so it's hard for me to listen to it often. I wrote about it too in the Mahler thread.

I actually saw a comment on his new Philly 6th at Amazon that was appropriate, on the order of, "I would never conduct Mahler the way Eschenbach does here, yet, I am totally won over by it." I think the comments there probably sum up his Mahler, they echo what I've heard from many here who saw his Mahler live, I was really young when he was with Houston. If I had listened to this one blind (which I wish I had been able to!) I think I would have had the same reaction as rubio.

I did hear Eschenbach do Mahler 1 with Philly live in Frankfurt two, three years ago which was outstanding and far less mannered than this Mahler 5 clip posted by Greta.

He also has a highly rated Mahler 1 with Houston on Koch, which I would like to hear. Not that we care about Hurwitz, but he seems to like Eschenbach, he called a few of his Houston recordings even references.

About the orchestral sound, I noticed right off it was rather unique, not at all what I would've expected from Houston, Viennese-ish strings yet an open American quality to the brass, you guys described it better than I could've thought to. The French element never occurred to me but yes, I see that. I've also read comments on their Brahms cycle and Bruckner #2 and 6 that described their sound as dark and European. Favorable comments, and quite cheap now for those. Some here had the Brahms (Gurn?) and I think liked it, the Bruckner I'm very curious of.   

For some reason, the Austro-German tradition is much favored in Houston, after Eschenbach they hired the Austrian Hans Graf. A good "safe" pair of hands, but not nearly as dynamic and committed to contemporary music as Eschenbach was. And he's just been extended to 2012, though only one recording has been produced of them so far which is mystifying. But the orchestra has had some tough times to get past, a damaging strike and the loss of their whole music library in 2001 to a tropical storm flood, including parts with markings back to Stokowski and Barbirolli.  They are recovering well and are still good, but not as cohesive in sound and some ragged ensemble, I heard them in Wagner most recently where the brass drowned out the proceedings.

Eschenbach has unfortunately had much trouble with orchestra politics, which have been more of a problem than his sometimes unconventional interpretations. He's just been unceremoniously ousted from Paris to Paavo Jarvi, Philly didn't seem to want him, and Houston was surprised he wanted to leave, seeing a little affront. Whether he'll work again in a big MD position, I think he'd be wary of, though he'll certainly soon be free. But IMO an excellent and often thought-provoking musician.

[Greta]

There is an Eschenbach/Philly Mahler 9 on operashare, if you care.

Just found this on my hard drive, I didn't realize I had it.  There is a Mahler 4 there as well.

[Harry]

Just found this on my hard drive, I didn't realize I had it.  There is a Mahler 4 there as well.

A hard drive full of goodies!
And how do you listen to this music Greta?
On computer speakers?

[greg]

man, that's impressive that you guys can actually tell apart orchestras from which country they might be playing in.
i'm not there yet, buy you know, eventually........ if i actually did start collecting lots of multiple recordings, it'd help, wouldn't it? Not only that, but telling conductors apart. I only have a pretty basic knowledge so far since i hardly have any multiple recordings so it's hard to compare conductors and thus kinda hard to guess in the Mystery Orchestra, but i guess i'm learning as i'm going along  .

Thanks for the clips, Greta, i've discovered some good Mahler recordings on this thread.....

Like someone at a Mahler concert in the Concertgebouw (Haitink/ 7th) said to me: "people pay good money to listen to a Mahler performance, in order to feel utterly depressed..." 

lol, i coulda said that myself, that's Mahler for you.

[M forever]

Yes, I did participate in MO 16 (Strauss), and one post in MO 17  .

I remember now, you made some perceptive marks about the French character of the OSR playing. You should play more often. I mean play, not lurk. Playing involves the things I said above, coming up with an opinion, formulating and posting it. That helps a lot to clarify the listening and reception process for yourself, no matter if you guess "right or wrong". I also found that out for myself and recognized a few elements in my listening and reception process that I hadn't been fully aware of through this Mystery Comparison.

Mahler's music really just gets to me. And that's good, I guess - that's what it is supposed to do!
Like someone at a Mahler concert in the Concertgebouw (Haitink/ 7th) said to me: "people pay good money to listen to a Mahler performance, in order to feel utterly depressed..." 

Strange comment. Obviously, because it can have a very cathartic effect to go through that emotional process. Besides, most of the Mahler symphonies have a "happy end". Except for the 6th. Even the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde are peaceful at the end, not sad.

But since I didn't give the clips a proper listening, I wasn't able to give any well founded comments.

Bah! Lame excuses... 

[PerfectWagnerite]

Besides, most of the Mahler symphonies have a "happy end". Except for the 6th. Even the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde are peaceful at the end, not sad.

Do you think the 5th has a happy ending? I think that the the general consensus but to me it sounds like a happy ending after a very traumatic experience. Kind of like losing a loved one but remarrying a few years later. Yeah you are happy but deep down you are marred by grief. Robert Greenberg in one of his Mahler lectures compared the 5th to a grieving process (not sure what the consensus on the validity of that comparison is) and he compares the 5th movement of the 5th to the final part of the griefing process when one is ready to move on. To me that movement sounds trumphant but definitely not "happy" in the true sense. For some reason this symphony strikes a chord in me unlike any of his other works. I appreciate his other works for as masterpieces but really don't connect with them emotionally in the sense that I am almost never moved by them. The 5th kind of just puts me in another state of mind afterwards.

I find The piece by Mahler that is the most traumatic is the second song from Das Knaben Wunderhorn, the one about the kid wanting bread and starving at the end. Something about that song, even more than the Kindentodenlieder, that just depresses me for the entire day after listening to it. Suffice to say I can't really listen to it that often.

[M forever]

Do you think the 5th has a happy ending? I think that the the general consensus but to me it sounds like a happy ending after a very traumatic experience.

That's what I said.

Obviously, because it can have a very cathartic effect to go through that emotional process. Besides, most of the Mahler symphonies have a "happy end".

[Que]

I remember now, you made some perceptive marks about the French character of the OSR playing. You should play more often. I mean play, not lurk. Playing involves the things I said above, coming up with an opinion, formulating and posting it. That helps a lot to clarify the listening and reception process for yourself, no matter if you guess "right or wrong". I also found that out for myself and recognized a few elements in my listening and reception process that I hadn't been fully aware of through this Mystery Comparison.

Bah! Lame excuses... 

OK OK! I got the message! 

Strange comment. Obviously, because it can have a very cathartic effect to go through that emotional process. Besides, most of the Mahler symphonies have a "happy end". Except for the 6th. Even the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde are peaceful at the end, not sad.

Yes, there is some form of resolvement. But I personally do not experience this as a true catharsis/ "liberation" most of the times. More like an expression of Mahler's longing for inner peace, than of true peace itself - which actually makes it all even more emotionally gripping...

Q

[greg]

Strange comment. Obviously, because it can have a very cathartic effect to go through that emotional process. Besides, most of the Mahler symphonies have a "happy end". Except for the 6th. Even the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde are peaceful at the end, not sad.

Bah! Lame excuses... 

This is very debatable, since Mahler's (most characteristic) idiom is about straddling the line between happy and sad at the very same moment.
this is what i think about the endings:

1, 3, 4, and 7 are just truly happy, although out of those 4, 3 is the deepest since it's been through a more before the ending. It's more of a peace with nature sort of happiness instead of a celebrating happiness.

8 is happy, but not carelessly happy, more with pain mixed in.

5, I agree with what PerfectWagnerite said.

2 (my favorite ending in all of music, along with the Rite of Spring and Mahler 9) is something that can't really be described as being happy. Maybe hopeful is a better word? A supreme ecstasy of hope?

6, is obviously and sad ending. The first time I heard it, it made me feel sick when I was done. The whole last movement is 30 minutes of wandering, hyperactive, mainly gloomy music with hardly any repetition of themes and stuff.

Das Lied von der Erde, 9 and 10, i don't think should be described as happy, but they are peaceful. If you think they're happy, well, you can think of it as such. But it seems to me that the endings are more of a farewell to something good, in his case a farewell to life. It's a peaceful acceptance of something that it really infinitely painful... it could be a farewell to anything, really.

[M forever]

Das Lied von der Erde, 9 and 10, i don't think should be described as happy, but they are peaceful. If you think they're happy, well, you can think of it as such. But it seems to me that the endings are more of a farewell to something good, in his case a farewell to life. It's a peaceful acceptance of something that it really infinitely painful... it could be a farewell to anything, really.

Which it probably is. As nice and colorful as Bernstein's dramatic "programmatic interpretation" for the 9th as a 4 times farewell to life is, I think it's nonsense. I think what de la Grange said about that makes a whole lot more sense.

[Greta]

Anyone interested in the Bonus recordings or etc from this thread, PM me.

About the impact of Mahler 5, this is a special work to me because I came to know it when I was cooped up in the hospital and it helped me get through that miserable time. I could lose myself in it and forget about everything else. And it was the first Mahler work I set out to get to know, so it was fascinating to me. But I also listened to it so many times because of that. Especially the Sturmisch. When I first heard that, I was blown away. The passion, turbulence and density of writing there are amazing. It took me ages to really make sense out of it. When it is played well, for me that is where the devastation begins. The Scherzo lets up a little, but is also quite haunting too.

I know this is really odd, but I don't necessarily get that depressed in the Trauermarsch. I see it a little bit like something out of a Ken Russell movie, maybe not entirely serious, rather mocking a funeral march. The part that is hardest for me is the Adagietto, by far. There is such longing and wonder there, almost not of this world (Sarge once remarked on it sharing themes with "Ich bin gehanden gekommen"), it's very moving. Of course, it depends on how it's interpreted, it can also be played as more of a love poem, it's equally affecting in any way.

The Finale is brilliant. The whole thing revolves around themes from the Adagietto, maybe triumphing over being at the brink of being "lost to" or gone from this world? Could be. Triumphing over the storm of the Sturmisch that threatened to rip a man asunder? Certainly. The ending reminds me of Wagner, Tannhäuser specifically. (More the end of the chorale, the horns.) Taken all at once it is both a tremendously devastating and also life-affirming work (like a lot of Mahler!)

It is always Mahler's slow movements that I find really hard to take. The Urlicht of the 2nd. The 6th Andante, the Adagio of the 3rd to a degree, the 4th Adagio also, so poignant to me.

His last symphonies have incredibly powerful endings, but the 2nd is the ending that completely gets to me. "Was du geschlagen
zu Gott wird es dich tragen!", this always makes the tears flow.  0:)