Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1

[mc ukrneal]

Just to let you know - I am listening (had another delay with broken washer), and I still hope to get this done by the end of tomorrow. But I have a lot of listening to go still!

[Sergeant Rock]

Just to let you know - I am listening (had another delay with broken washer), and I still hope to get this done by the end of tomorrow. But I have a lot of listening to go still!

Oh man, Neal, I hope you find the time. I've finished listening. Just getting my thoughts together now.

Sarge

[zauberflöte]

Finished at last!
In all I would say I might have liked some of the discarded performances more, though all of these are first rate. I really have little to say about my top two performances. Maybe I have Mahler 1 fatigue. As much as I appreciated the chance to hear so many wonderful recordings, toward the end they were starting to blur together. That didn't happen at all with the Mahler 6. Mahler 1 was my introduction to Mahler. The piece bowled me over in my teens. It doesn't so much anymore. I must have become jaded somewhere along the line. It's not the work's fault.

So I spent today by getting up early and listening to one performance then going about my day and listening to the others after at least three-hour intervals.
So now I have it all figured out, for this particular moment, anyway.

A8 I had made my top choice in round 2 for the sections of movements two and three. To hear the third all the way through was disappointing here. The movement was entirely respectable and lyrical which meant it didn't work at all. The rest of the performance was exceptional if nothing even remotely controversial. Great orchestra. Great brass in the last movement, too. Big, bright sound for a safe interpretation.

B1 Nice MOR performance which sounds like damning with faint praise. At this level it's not.

B8 extremely interesting, but it never convinced me. I had liked the slowness in the third movement the first time I had heard it in the earlier round, but here I felt it dragged. I tried to listen for the things David heard in it. Never materialized for me. Didn't much care for the fourth movement - pauses that made no sense, big buildups from straightforward passages never felt right. Calling attention to itself. I've said I don't mind it in Bernstein. Maybe it's because Bernstein highlighted passages I like to hear highlighted. I can't figure it out. But I found myself getting lost in the woods on occasion, thinking, where are we now? This is Mahler, not Sibelius (I love getting lost in Sibelius.)

C5 sounds perfect. No surprises, no quirks but very powerful. Again, another nice MOR performance and for me the best of the bunch.

C8 Odd accents. I was going to attribute them to the sound engineer, but the conductor had to have say in the recording. In the first movement those accents worked beautifully, not as much elsewhere. In all, more individual than the others, which was a plus. Sound had less amplitude than the others, though. In the end it just nudged out the much better sounding A8 for third place. That might be just for the day.

Rank from first to last: C5, B1, C8, A8, B8

[Sergeant Rock]

3rd = C8. Let down badly by the 2nd movement - starts very very slow

This reply is not meant to criticize your criticism (we don't do that on this thread) but I just want to point out this is a Ländler, an Austro-Bavarian folk dance for couples with much stomping. It's always on the slow side. (Check out youtube for examples.) Mahler's instructions say "not too fast" and he indicated minum=66, which C8 nails (I checked it against an online metronome). So if you think it too slow (and that's okay), blame Mahler and Austrian peasants, not the conductor    (The conductor is Austrian, by the way.) A conductor who takes it much faster is falsifying the music's character; the rustic associations are lost.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

C8 Odd accents. I was going to attribute them to the sound engineer, but the conductor had to have say in the recording.

If I understand what you mean by "accents" then yes, the conductor is responsible. He's on record as saying he wanted to emphasize, "even exaggerate" the unique Mahlerian orchestral colors.

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Thanks Tim and Neal for your votes, and very interesting comments!

If you think that trying to get your vote in for today may be a bit of a rush, don't worry, we can still extend the voting deadline.

[zauberflöte]

If I understand what you mean by "accents" then yes, the conductor is responsible.

You are correct, Sarge. Thanks for the information.

[Sergeant Rock]

1 - C8
2 - C5
3 - B1
4 - B8
5 - A8

I like them all (I own, for certain, C8 and A8, both among the favorites in my collection). Ranking them wasn't easy. It came down to small details making the dfference. Unable to make up my mind for the top two places, I was forced to listen to short segments of C8 and C5 (each a few seconds in duration) back to back for the length of each performance. It was maddening in that they kept swapping first and second places, depending on which segment I was listening to. In the end, the more unusual, individual (mannered?) and slightly slower performance won, but it was a close thing. C8's slightly better sound helped also (the CD is sensational but this rip sounds mighty fine too).

One thing that tipped the balance is the silent, magical atmosphere C8 creates with a slightly slower tempo in the section leading up to the Spring explosion. At 11:46 the recessed horns (recessed relative to the other competitors) create wonder, mystery and anticipation. C5 is good too but not quite as arresting. C8's slow, deep, rumbling low brass at 14:48, while perhaps more evocative of Fafner awakening than budding Spring flowers, is awesome. When the explosion comes, C8's bass drum is sensational while C5 lost the drum in an overly loud cymbal crash.

C8's horns were also instrumental in choosing it number 1. They are extraordinary whether playing with great delicacy (11:46) or whooping up a storm (15:38) or braying and trilling with extreme vulgarity (16:09)  Recent recordings by this orchestra (not just their M1) make me believe it has the world's best horn section now...the best recorded horn section anyway.

I agree with David that C8 is an intensely beautiful performance. I just don't agree with his conclusion. The only time the beauty is contrary to Mahler's intentions is, I think, the funeral march. But C5 is no less beautiful here (well, maybe marginally less--C8 sets the bar pretty high  )  B1 is the only performance that gets it right: a bass that eschews beauty with a slightly sour tone and cheesy vibrato, trying to recreate the amateurish playing of the village band Mahler remembered from his childhood. This movement, plus the B8 trio in the second that could have been schmaltzier, could have swooned more, decided my third and fourth places.

It's hard to fault A8 but compared to the others, it doesn't thrill me as much--and the recorded sound, while quite good, is a little harsh. I'd like more deliberation at certain moments, the trio needs a dose of gooey taffy, and the orchestral balance at the end of the symphony is poor: the strings disappear in a blast of brass. Compare how clear the chugging strings are in C5 (at 53:16). That's the kind of thrilling detail I relish...and the kind of detail that figures greatly in how I rank performances (just so you know  )


Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte Trung224

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5                B1
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1               C8
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8               C5
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8               A8
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8               B8

[mc ukrneal]

The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8 
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8

I'm coming! Listening to the last one right now. THen I need some food and a bit of time to digest the results (and I suppose the food). Then I may need to go back and do a little comparison listening and then I will post. So as long as it is Sunday somewhere in the world, I will post my results on Sunday!

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm coming! Listening to the last one right now. THen I need some food and a bit of time to digest the results (and I suppose the food). Then I may need to go back and do a little comparison listening and then I will post. So as long as it is Sunday somewhere in the world, I will post my results on Sunday!

Excellent! I hope Monkey Greg finds the time too.

Sarge

[Beale]

The choices so far:

DavidRoss  Beale  TimH   Sarge  Zauberflöte

      C5          C5      B8      C8         C5
      B8          B8      A8      C5          B1
      A8          A8      C8      B1          C8
      B1          B1      C5      B8          A8 
      C8          C8      B1      A8          B8

Good stuff Sarge, but I think you left our Trung224's contribution from the 3rd October.

[Sergeant Rock]

Good stuff Sarge, but I think you left our Trung224's contribution from the 3rd October.

  Wow...he was fast! so fast he flew right by me unseen    I'll correct my post now.

Sarge

[zauberflöte]

Wow, all over the place. Not much separates these performances. So far only C5 hasn't received a last place vote and only A8 hasn't received a first place. I can easily see how A8 could be someone's favorite.

[North Star]

I won't have the time to get my votes in, and won't have time in the near future either, so I'll have to skip this last round . The results are interesting, to say the least.

[Sergeant Rock]

Wow, all over the place. Not much separates these performances. So far only C5 hasn't received a last place vote and only A8 hasn't received a first place. I can easily see how A8 could be someone's favorite.

If our MAD Dungeon Master could vote, he might give it a top place. I know he admires that performance.

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for your vote, Sarge. Very interesting comparative comments too.

Sorry to hear that, Karlo - thanks for letting us know.

haha, Neal! Don't worry, we are still awaiting another 5 votes at least anyway!

[Brian]

haha, Neal! Don't worry, we are still awaiting another 5 votes at least anyway!

Hope you're not counting on me! I'd JUST now have the time to start listening, but there's no way I'm going to shotgun five Mahler Firsts today 

[madaboutmahler]

Hope you're not counting on me! I'd JUST now have the time to start listening, but there's no way I'm going to shotgun five Mahler Firsts today 

How long do you think you would want, Brian?

[mc ukrneal]

Final: Mahler 1
Some of you know that Mahler's first symphony has never really resonated with me in any special way. I think I have figured out what bothers me most – it is the way the transitions and the tempo changes are handled. Too many of the versions are too abrupt in this regard and do not make each section flow to the next. I think this is absolutely critical for me. The actual tempo chosen is almost irrelevant compared to how the transition/change is handled.

As a result, C8 was my winner. I am shocked even myself. But this is the one that opened my eyes to the piece most of all – I heard things (impacts, soli, harmonies, etc) that I heard nowhere else. Tempo changes are handled very well and good contrasts are made throughout.  My favorite movement was probably the fourth movement of C5 (though B8 wasn't far off at all), which I placed 3rd. I found the sound not so great, but not sure if that is just because it is a transfer or it really isn't that great (if it isn't, then it would probably need to be dropped lower for that).  #2 for me was B8, which I think also did very well with the transitions and is perhaps a safer choice than C8. A8 and B1 are good, but never reach the same heights that the others do for me.

Ranking: C8, B8, C5, A8, B1

My Rankings:
A8: I. The various entrances after are nice, but this seems dull/flat to me. Tempo not to my taste at all. But later build ups are quite nice in impact. Trumpets sometimes sound flat too. However, the unison is great and the whole orchestra has bought in to the approach (though I still find it drags a bit at times).  However, the build up to the end of the movement is hugely attractive. I hear many details here, really quite wonderful. II. Nice start, though a hair draggy (just a little bit), which takes away just that slightest bit from the dancelike character of this part. But then it speeds up a hair and it is better! Impact is still good! And then the trio is quite wonderful.  I note it was restrained in the earlier listening, which shows how important it is in context as it contrasts just fine with the preceding section (though a little more could have been squeezed out). Ends well indeed.  III. Again, tempos just a hair slow (here I agree with my previous round comment of ponderous start). Because of this, the klezmer doesn't quite work as well with the same slackness.  Some great beauty here, but perhaps a bit too static as we go from section to section (could have benefited from a bit more contrast).  IV. Good start! But then it loses steam until it quickly picks it back up in some beautiful playing (guess it was just the transition I didn't like).  The tuttis have enormous impact (though an unexpected unison problem in one moment)!!   In Sum. Biggest issue for me is that sometimes the tempo was too slack, but this was otherwise a very good version with lots of audible details (and transparency).  Never got under my skin (with the exception perhaps of some bits of the fourth movement), but l was able to luxuriate in some wonderful moments.  Ranking:  4

B1: I. Starts in tune. Starts a bit dull for me, though again nice sounding. Much, much better tempos after it gets going, though the fullness of sound is not quite the same as in #1. Some strange slowdowns running into some tuttis sound artificial to me. II. Tempi seem a bit all over the place – slows down, then speeds up. It is a bit of whiplash in the changing of gears. And then it just flies – doesn't seem very natural. I like the different parts, but I feel the transitions ruin them (to some degree).  III. Trio seems a bit brusque in context, actually flighty, though leads nicely to Klezmer. Transitions here are so much BETTER! Reprisal of the earlier themes seems natural. IV. Ok start, but again, a hard change in tempo (repeated more than once in other places). Highs are good, but they don't have the weight of A8.  In Sum. Transitions break the line too much (in first half in particular) and impact not quite as good as A8. I had little emotional connection to this one.  Ranking: 5

B8: I. I like how the different bits seem somehow very differentiated, and yet also part of a bigger whole (which I did not feel on the previous two). Everything seems to flow naturally, including the transitions. Very fine! Although a little before the end of the movement, there is an unusual change of tempo. II. Definitely a feeling of nimbleness to start, but then does seem to bog down a hair. But when acceleration does arrive, it is quite good.  III. A little slow for my liking on the dirge.  Seems to drag a bit. But, the slower start does give greater contrast with the Klezmer, which may not be as good as the others, but has the advantage of sounding peppier because of the contrast. And then I lost myself in that third section of wistfulness – beautiful.  IV. Exciting start here!  What excellent playing here. Transitions here are so much better than previous one, where here I don't even always notice them!  So much detail and outstanding unison! Ending is thrilling!  In Sum.  A very good version. Only the third movement lost some momentum for me, but the rest was of very high quality throughout and I really connected with it. Ranking: 2

C5: I. Good start. Trumpets in the distance just right. Natural progression as it builds, though unison is not quite as tight as it could be (nicely transparent though). Develops well – and oh, those horn blasts toward the end are well done indeed! This seems to naturally progress with very nice tuttis.  II. Landler is slowish, and I think I'd prefer it faster. Once it gets going, you get caught up in it. Trio is so very delicate and delectable!  Ends very joyful. III. I still find the march a bit draggy somehow. Klezmer is ok, though it makes some strange choices on when to play softer/louder in some moments.  IV. Exciting start, thrilling even.  The piece develops naturally. This one and B8 have outstanding fourth movements!! If we were listening to just this movement, I might pick this version – it's that good.  In Sum. Sound here was a problem, particularly in the second and third movements. It made this one harder to compare to the others. If I took sound into account, I might have to drop it down further. Overall, this was a solid version. It does a lot of things well (sometimes better than others), but overall it never really excited me until the end.   Ranking: 3

C8: I. Slow to get going, but beautifully played.  Love the offstage brass. All of this creates a different impact. And the transition to the main section is so gentle and soft (as is the acceleration). And when we get to the tutti, it all makes sense!  Tempo changes are finally making sense to me, because of how smoothly they are managed here.  Slow tempo is on the edge, but it is made so natural that I don't mind it.  Gosh, the low strings are so ominous when they lead to the tutti! Didn't hear that anywhere else. First time my hair stood on end this early.  II.   A hair slow, but by starting the first bar even slower, it makes it seem fine. Interesting idea. Beautifully played. The slowness, interestingly, works here. In fact, it makes tremendous contrasts with the parts that are not and it makes them that much more exciting. I also feel the tempo changes are just beautifully handled. They seem the most natural thing in the world. III. The slow funeral march works fine here too, now that we had such a great ending to the second movement. It is perhaps too beautiful (though it is somber), but it sings to me. And the Klezmer is well done. IV. Beautiful start, perhaps not as visceral as the previous two, but equally effective in its way. It progresses along a bit slowly, but so beautifully and everything is played so well, it is a joy to hear. And the tuttis are something else. When the trumpets are again heard in the distance, I had goosebumps – so divinely handled that moment. Balance is just superb throughout!  Ending is thrilling for sure.   In Sum. Perhaps it is perverse, but this one gets pretty much everything right for me despite some very slow tempi.   Ranking: 1