Mozart - String Quartets

[Madiel]

I was talking about Mozart, not about Renaissance polyphonists. Josquin or Bach. And moreover, I was talking from the point of view of the ordinary listener. Feel free to think you are not in the latter category.

Mozart published works too, you know. You seem under the weird illusion that because we don't use his opus numbers, there weren't any.

[Florestan]

Mozart published works too, you know. You seem under the weird illusion that because we don't use his opus numbers, there weren't any.

That is not my point. My point is that listening to a Mozart quartet in his days was more often than not a once-in-a-lifetime event.

[Florestan]

Of course. If I wouldn't yield to Mozart or Haydn as far as musical authority goes, I'd be a fool, wouldn't I?
This doesn't mean that I have to yield everything personal and not form an opinion of my own.
But this is not about critical thinking, finding flaws in argument or whatever but letting one's taste be shaped by great works of art. Their authority is unavoidable but it's not "accidental" authority.

Don't get me wrong, I love those quartets. And Mozart is in my top 3 favorite composers.

[Florestan]

Not only is this right, it exactly what Andrei argues most of the time!

I guess I was in argumentative mood, again. 

[Jo498]

Actually, the 6 quartets dedicated to Haydn were probably Mozart's most important published work. They received opus number 10 for a nice round number. It's hard to overstress the special status of these pieces. Mozart worked on them (while doing other stuff in between) for more than 2 years which was very uncommon for him. They are hugely ambitious, taking some inspiration from Haydn but overall far longer, usually more complex, more passionate and daring than his op.33.

And for the historical perspective, some music (keyboard, chamber) was at least as much written with the players (and sometimes other composers) in mind as with the listeners. Not everything was a "once in a lifetime experience". Even pieces that could fall out of fashion rather quickly, like operas would usually be given a season or more at one place, they would be (often very slightly) overhauled and played again a few years later. Excerpts would be published for playing them at home. There are letters in which Mozart asks his father so send him music from his Salzburg years because he apparently wanted to perform some of his "juvenilia" in Vienna, in the case of the piano concerto K 175 he almost certainly "beefed it up" with a new finale and played it in Vienna despite the huge advancements he had made in this form in the almost 10 years in between.
While it was of course rather different from today (not the least because of recordings) it was not quite as ephemeral as one might think.

[Madiel]

That is not my point. My point is that listening to a Mozart quartet in his days was more often than not a once-in-a-lifetime event.

Your point is factually incorrect, is my point.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Oh come on . . . get a move on . . . we're all dying to know . . . you're the only one with both recordings. Come on . . . I'm going to die of suspense and excitement . . .

The envelope please.....

Mandryka's is different!

I don't have time to go into specifics, I'll do that tonight when I have more time. But I have compared K387, Mvmt I, 1) my rip of the brown box, 2) a lossless (FLAC) download of the black box from presto classical, 3) mandrake's rip of the black box.

I found that the brown box was identical to the presto download of the black box (except for a different amount of silence at the beginning of the track, the download lagged by 1/40 of a second.) Other than that they were bit-for-bit identical in comparing the digital codes.

I found that the rip I got from mandryka was not identical to either of the other two versions. There were subtle waveform differences. I looked at a ~1ms sample of the waveform and found the codes typically shifted up or down by a bit or two. Interestingly there was no time shift relative to the brown box, absolutely none.

My conclusion:

Presto was lazy, they said "this release looks identical to those other releases, let's just copy the tracks over and call it the new release." So their download of the black box is identical to the brown box, even though the physical block box contains different masters.

I can't say whether mandryka's release was really remastered from the original tapes. Because the time synchronization was so spot on, I suspect they took their original master modified it, corrected the equalization, etc, reestablishing the 'silky sound' by that correction.

So Mandryka, your honor is preserved!

(Later I will post more details for the curious or disbelieving.)

[Mandryka]

I'm glad to hear it! And thanks for verifying.

To return to another issue, I think their EMI Mozart set is really very good, quartets and quintets. I can imagine that some people would prefer the quartets to the Teldec, and I don't mean just from the point of view of sound.

[SonicMan46]

Well TTT after 5 years!    Today, I'm spending some time on selected discs from my String Quartet collection - has been culled over the years and have not had a recent listen - below are the sets owned.

For those new to these works, Mozart wrote 23 'String Quartets' - the first 13 are considered 'early works', composed between 1770-1773, i.e. his teenage years - the last 10 are his 'mature works', written between 1782-1790 (his Vienna years), thus nearly a ten year gap. The first 6 of the later group are the Haydn Quartets (K. 387, 421, 428, 458, 464, 465, Op. 10; 1782–1785) (LINK).

Few have recorded the early quartets (including the Q. Italiano below); my other two sets are both the last 10 quartets (Mosaïques on PIs) - SO, anything new, such as the Armida Quartet who have done all (not available on Amazon USA at the moment) or reassessment/repackaging of some older favorites?  For those interested, reviews attached of the ones in my possession + Armidas.  Dave

   

[DavidW]

@SonicMan46 Dave my favorite recording of the early quartets are from Festetics:



And my favorite of the mature quartets are Leipziger:



But it is a crowded field with many exceptional performances that I enjoy.

[SonicMan46]

@SonicMan46 Dave my favorite recording of the early quartets are from Festetics:
And my favorite of the mature quartets are Leipziger:

 

But it is a crowded field with many exceptional performances that I enjoy.

Hi David - thanks for the above info - I found the Festetics on Spotify and setup a playlist - available as a DL on Qobuz for $20; physical copies excessively priced on Discogs and eBay.  Dave

[SonicMan46]

Along with David's suggestions, I've also been perusing Amazon and came across the 'Complete' sets shown below - the reviews have looked quite good - the American String Quartet uses Stradivarius instruments on loan from the Smithsonian (recordings made in the mid-90s) - thanks for any comments.  Dave

 

[Jo498]

I have two complete recordings: Italiano and Hagen (DG). The Italiano is very solid but maybe a bit "heavy" for the earlier quartets. The Hagen was recorded over a long time; the early quartets were done for the anniversary '91 while the others are from 10 years later (they re-recorded 2 quartets that been on an early single disc in the 80s) when the ensemble had become more adventurous/mannered (but not as much as on their post-DG recordings).

I am not sufficiently invested in the early works to get any more. Of the later ones I have a few more, often piecemeal, the main "complete" (wrt the 10 "great/late" quartets) was also my first recording, Alban-Berg-Quartett 1970s that holds up very well, I think.
On old instruments I only have one disc with the Mosaiques but couldn't be bothered to get the rest that is oop or expensive.

[DavidW]

Does anyone remember Melos btw?  This recording was my introduction to Mozart chamber music:



I'm still fond of it.

[Karl Henning]

My complete set is the Amadeus Quartet. Recorded in the 60's and 70's. 

[Mandryka]

I heard Dudok Qt play K590 on Sunday. They said they wanted to explore a parlando style, and the cellist had a special new bow which makes the cello speak.

I felt it was more interesting than enjoyable actually - I suspect it's work in progress really and if and when it's released it'll be fabulous. It certainly was arresting at first, but sometimes it just felt too self conscious - pauses held longer than felt right, that sort of thing.

But I wonder if anyone knows of any commercial recordings they'd describe as parlando. Short phrases.

[DavidW]

Anyone remember this old gem?

[George]

Anyone remember this old gem?

I have it in this incarnation (below), after a lot of comparing on Spotify a few years back, I found that this was the one that I preferred over all others:

[JBS]

I have the Talich, Amadeus, and Armida sets. In the earlier quartets, I don't think any of the three is clearly superior to the others.

For the later quartets I'm just as likely to take out individual CDs or sets of the Haydn quartets (f.i. Guarnieri) as I am to rely on a complete set.

Armida does mix them up chronologically, I might mention.

[Herman]

I have these works (the mature string quartets) by just about anybody.
I'll mention the Petersen Quartet on Capriccio, perhaps the best nineties recording.
The Amadeus had two versions. The mid-sixties integrale, but there's also an Original Masters edition of the fifties Westminster recordings.
I have a Budapest recording of the Prussian quartets.
There is the classic Juilliard recording.