Mahler's symphonies numbers 6 to 9

[lisa needs braces]

Mahler's first five symphonies are among my favorite symphonies and works I frequently return to, but for some reason I can't make headway into his later symphonic output which seem to have all the flaws of the previous works without any of the redeeming qualities. For instance, his third symphony is certainly overlong, but there are many good and memorable moments I appreciate in the work, but I can't seem to find such hooks in his 6th to 9th symphonies.

Are these works different or just inferior to his previous output?

[vandermolen]

Am hoping to see the Symphony 3 in concert later this month. I am no Mahler expert but 6 and 9 plus the Adagio from 10 are amongst my favourites.

[Jo498]

I think they are better than the early ones (except 8 which I simply do not know well enough and don't really have an opinion about). 6,7 and 9 are more "abstract" than 1-4, more polyphonic, more "modern" in some sense.
5 is somewhat in between and I can understand that it is preferred to the somewhat similar 7. 7 is a stumbling stone for many which is understandable, mainly because of the finale.
I also find 6 and 9 more tragic and more emotionally gripping than the sometimes cheesy, seemingly naive romantic 1-3, even some parts of the 5th (funeral march and adagietto) sound more clicheéd to me than 6 and 9.

[andolink]

Mahler's first five symphonies are among my favorite symphonies and works I frequently return to, but for some reason I can't make headway into his later symphonic output which seem to have all the flaws of the previous works without any of the redeeming qualities. For instance, his third symphony is certainly overlong, but there are many good and memorable moments I appreciate in the work, but I can't seem to find such hooks in his 6th to 9th symphonies.

Are these works different or just inferior to his previous output?

Interesting.  During my 43 year relationship with Mahler's symphonies I've always had exactly the opposite view from yours.  My favorites are the 6th, 8th and 9th along with Das Lied von der Erde while the 7th is the one that opened my ears to Mahler's greatness.  1-5 are the ones I find more "flawed" to use your term.

[Mandryka]

Mahler's first five symphonies are among my favorite symphonies and works I frequently return to, but for some reason I can't make headway into his later symphonic output which seem to have all the flaws of the previous works without any of the redeeming qualities. For instance, his third symphony is certainly overlong, but there are many good and memorable moments I appreciate in the work, but I can't seem to find such hooks in his 6th to 9th symphonies.

It may well be true that there are less tunes you can hum in the later symphonies, and less foot tapping rhythms. There are exceptions though -- I know people who like 19th century romantic music who love the tune at the start of the second nachtmuik of 7, or Blicket auf in 8 or the foot stomping rondo burleske  of 9. But clearly not enough for you.

Are there any other "redeeming qualities" that you find in 1-5 and you miss in 6-10?

[Scion7]

I enjoy all his symphonies, but strongly feel that The Song of the Earth, No.9 and the single finished movement from his unfinished last symphony are the best of the bunch.  And what could be more melody-driven than "The Farewell"?

[Marc]

[...]I can't seem to find such hooks in his 6th to 9th symphonies.

To me, the key word in this sentence is seem.
If you've listened to these works often enough and you still aren't able to experience these hooks, then I would change that particular sentence in "I can't find such hooks ....".

And there's nothing wrong or odd with that. These things just happen. It is possible you're searching for something that's simply not there for you. Personally, I do not know of any composer whose works 'hook' me in each and every composition, with the exception maybe of Bach (just bluffing that I 'know' his entire output ).

Are these works different or just inferior to his previous output?

If 'inferior' means: not able to grab you personally, then: yes, one could consider them inferior. But, in a more objective meaning, I would opt for 'different'. In general, I experience the 'later' Mahler as more elaborate, hermetic and growing towards so-called modernism, except maybe no. 8, which has quite some redeeming qualities, I would say.

As a whole, I recognize what Mandryka wrote: less 'Lieder-like' melodic and less 'blissfully' swinging.

[Marc]

I enjoy all his symphonies, but strongly feel that The Song of the Earth, No.9 and the single finished movement from his unfinished last symphony are the best of the bunch.  And what could be more melody-driven than "The Farewell"?

Yes, those are great works. But the melodies are quite different from those of the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and the early Wunderhorn songs, who return quite often in his first 4 symphonies.

[Cato]

Symphonies VI-X and Das Lied von der Erde are certainly not inferior: rarely do composers become worse as they progress.  Certainly the works are different, and show Mahler searching to express those unclimbed mountains and unknown deserts of Life's sundry emotions.

Abe: Which performances have you heard?  Perhaps the problem lies in the particular recording (?).  Try another conductor!  Perhaps another conductor might bring forth the things your ears need to find in the score.

Personally, I have listened less to I-V, and much more to these works, but that tendency began even when I was a teenager.

The comments of Marc, Andolink, and the others are on target.

[Pat B]

When I started listening seriously to Mahler, I did the symphonies mostly in order, and I took my time with each one. (I also went back and listened to earlier ones, so while I was "working on" 7, I'd listen to 1-6 too, but not 8-9).

6 and especially 7 were the toughest nuts to crack, followed by 8 and Das Lied. But 9 and 10 were very accessible, possibly because of how much I had already listened to the others. Now I like them all -- 8 less than the rest, but I still like it.

So my suggestion is: try listening to 6 a lot (along with your usual dosage of 1-5), but not the later ones until you enjoy 6, or at least it makes sense to you. Then repeat that for each subsequent one.

[kishnevi]

I think they are better than the early ones (except 8 which I simply do not know well enough and don't really have an opinion about). 6,7 and 9 are more "abstract" than 1-4, more polyphonic, more "modern" in some sense.
5 is somewhat in between and I can understand that it is preferred to the somewhat similar 7. 7 is a stumbling stone for many which is understandable, mainly because of the finale.
I also find 6 and 9 more tragic and more emotionally gripping than the sometimes cheesy, seemingly naive romantic 1-3, even some parts of the 5th (funeral march and adagietto) sound more clicheéd to me than 6 and 9.

I pretty much agree with all the above. I like the Second Symphony because the finale always brings out my air conducting skills in full force... But for emotional involvement and musical technique, I go for 6, 7, 9 and 10.
In fact I am listening to the Ninth right now (Boulez/CSO)

[Sergeant Rock]

6 and especially 7 were the toughest nuts to crack...

Not for me. I heard 6 for the first time live (Szell, Cleveland) and I cannot understand anyone not being immediately (as I was) gripped by the opening march and those drum beats of fate and doom; the emotional beauty of the soaring Alma theme. I cannot understand it, but I do realize everyone has different ears and emotional circuits so this is not a criticism of you or abe. Just an acknowledgement of our differences.

Sarge

[Jo498]

There is a somewhat common periodization that takes 1-4 as the Wunderhorn pieces because 2-4 explicitly set and/or refer to songs of that cycle and #1 quotes from the "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen" which are also evoking a similar mood of early romanticism and naive folk poetry.
5-7 are the instrumental symphonies although the 5th quotes another Wunderhorn Lied (Lob des hohen Verstandes) and all three have the sombre funeral march associations we find in the two Wunderhorn setting that were composed last, namely "Revelge" and "Tamboursgsell". But still they are not as closely connected to the more picturesque or romantic Wunderhorn moods of the early ones
8, 9, Das Lied von der Erde and 10 are all singular pieces and do not really form a group. Das Lied has fairly straightforward romantic moods (despite the "Chinese" setting) in some of the middle songs and the "Farewell" has similarities with the poignant parting moods of the 9th. Of course, some Mahlerian elements, like the muted bugle calls and funeral marches can be found from 1st through 9th symphony; the first movement of the 9th has both and  "Der Abschied" starts also with some kind of funeral march.

[ibanezmonster]

Are these works different or just inferior to his previous output?

No musical work will ever be better than the 9th, though. I've concluded after years of research that it's impossible to write anything better without imitating that exact style...

[Jay F]

Mahler has been my favorite composer since I first played the M6 in early 1988 (b/w M8 on the 3-CD CBS set by Bernstein; blue spine, green cover). It was simply the most brilliant music I'd ever heard. It was immediately familiar, yet stunningly imaginative at the same time. I loved it as instantly as I had "I Want to Hold Your Hand," Sgt. Pepper's, Pet Sounds, and Hasten down the Wind in the previous two decades. Just remarkable.

I go completely overboard for Mahler. If I had to make a choice between his music and the rest of the world's classical music, it would be no contest. It's one of the greatest bodies of work ever created in my opinion. Thankfully, I don't live in a Grimm's Fairy Tale universe where one has to make such choices.

But that doesn't mean everyone else has to love it (I don't think anyone except Sarge loves Mahler here as much as I do). If you don't like it, you don't like it. I've tried to like Brahms since discovering classical music in 1987, and he will never be much more than "Better Than Rap" to me. I doubt I will ever care about Debussy, Vaughn Williams, most opera, Schumann, or Wagner. Actually, I'm quite certain I will never like Wagner.

And it doesn't matter. We like what we like, and there's enough music that we can all listen to what we like, and leave the rest. If you don't like Mahler from No. 6 to Das Lied, that's fine. Life's too short to waste time listening to something you know you don't like.

[Jo498]

Except for the sheer length of some movements (or the whole 3rd) I think 6-9 are somewhat (or sometimes considerably) more difficult to "get" than the earlier ones. They were for me but of course it depends also on where you come from. I was coming from Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, and a little Bruckner, so almost all Mahler movements felt huge to me.
When at the age of 17 or 18 I first heard Mahler's 9th on the radio or on a borrowed disc I found the beginning with the muted horn downright ugly. Much more difficult to get into the 9th than his 1st, second or fifth. I cannot retrace how and when it "clicked" but it's been many years that I rate the 9th much higher than the rest.

[Pat B]

We like what we like, and there's enough music that we can all listen to what we like, and leave the rest. If you don't like Mahler from No. 6 to Das Lied, that's fine. Life's too short to waste time listening to something you know you don't like.

Maybe. But the things I like best are not always the things I liked immediately -- and Mahler 6 and 7 are prime examples of that. For somebody who does like 1-5, it might be worthwhile to continue trying the later ones.

[mc ukrneal]

I would make a few suggestions (some of which have already been mentioned, but bear repeating):
1. Try a different interpretation (some seem to add angst, while others play it more modern; either way a different approach may help)
2. Read about the symphonies to gain better insight and understanding to what you are hearing
3. Take a break (if you end up liking it, great - if not, don't waste your time)
4. See/listen to one of them in concert. I've done this with many a piece, only to find that in person I seemed to hear it differently (both performing and paying side).
5. Approach them differently.

Maybe that helps or maybe not. Good luck.

[Jay F]

Maybe. But the things I like best are not always the things I liked immediately -- and Mahler 6 and 7 are prime examples of that. For somebody who does like 1-5, it might be worthwhile to continue trying the later ones.

I get tired, though, of people insisting I really would like something I don't like, if only I tried their version of whatever it is we're discussing. And this is as true in music as it is in sports (football will never make as much sense to me as baseball) or food (no, I won't like your Brussels sprouts or pumpkin pie any more than I liked the 49 versions I've already tried).

I simply don't like certain music. And no amount of insistence from others that I just haven't heard the right version will make me like it.

[Mandryka]

I simply don't like certain music. And no amount of insistence from others that I just haven't heard the right version will not make me like it.

How do you know?