What Opera Are You Listening to Now?

[Mandryka]

I dislike Rheingold enormously, especially that long long long second scene. The whole opera can be torture.

[Mandryka]

That's exactly what it is.

But he kisses her in Act 2! And flirts with the flowers.

[Mandryka]

I had a really nasty opera experience last week. I watched a video of Death in Venice.


Every time I've seen it in the past I've always identified with Tadzio. And that's kind of cool. But this time . . . I saw myself in Aschenbach.


I still haven't got over it. It is NOT an opera recommended for any male over a certain age. I think I need to book myself in for some psychoanalysis.

[André]

I dislike Rheingold enormously, especially that long long long second scene. The whole opera can be torture.

Same here  . I much, much prefer Walküre and Lohengrin, then Götterdämmerung. Then Siegfried and Tristan, despite their longueurs. I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of molasses in Parsifal...

[JBS]

Another weirdo here...but to make me even weirder, my Wagner "trifecta" also includes Meistersinger.

Rheingold, Meistersinger, and Parsifal are my three favorites.

So you're not a wierdo.

[Mirror Image]

Those are my 2 favorite Wagner operas as well. I always thought my preference for Rheingold (even just within the Ring cycle) was unusual and that I was a weirdo. Granted I likely am a weirdo, but perhaps not for that reason. 

Another weirdo here...but to make me even weirder, my Wagner "trifecta" also includes Meistersinger.

If I'm weirdo for preferring these operas, then so be it! Rafael, I'm ashamed in that I don't believe I've ever listened to Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. I only own the Barenboim recording of it, but perhaps I need to buckle down and listen to it. Why does it rank so highly with you? Any particular thoughts you'd like to share about this opera?

[Mirror Image]

Rheingold, Meistersinger, and Parsifal are my three favorites.

So you're not a wierdo.

Thumbs up, Jeffrey!

[T. D.]

I had a really nasty opera experience last week. I watched a video of Death in Venice.


Every time I've seen it in the past I've always identified with Tadzio. And that's kind of cool. But this time . . . I saw myself in Aschenbach.


I still haven't got over it. It is NOT an opera recommended for any male over a certain age. I think I need to book myself in for some psychoanalysis.

The last performance of Death in Venice I attended heavily stressed the psychosexual aspects, with little if any subtlety, and seriously creeped me out. It was relentlessly depressing. Britten operas (notably Peter Grimes) tend to elicit such a response in me, but this was extreme. No ambition to see it again at this time.

[Mirror Image]

The last performance of Death in Venice I attended heavily stressed the psychosexual aspects, with little if any subtlety, and seriously creeped me out. It was relentlessly depressing. Britten operas (notably Peter Grimes) tend to elicit such a response in me, but this was extreme. No ambition to see it again at this time.

It seems that it's more important these days to depict the material in a way that is more subversive and shocking rather than anything thought-provoking. I think Death in Venice is a brilliant opera, but I have no desire to see it in a production due to the fact that I think the material that is more subtle and hidden in the text is exploited in a way that would make it unappealing to see in a live context. Just to throw this out there, my other favorite Britten opera is The Turn of the Screw.

[knight66]

Yes, I know it's a product of the gramophone but this has always been a favourite performance of Wagner's great love story. Margaret Price may never have been able to sing the role on stage but who can deny the beauty of her singing? Kollo is better than I remembered too.

Good to see this.

I have quite a few Tristans and this one has my favourite Act 2. I don't mind all the falseness of how it was recorded, it makes a very satisfying whole. I like my Tristan as narcotic as possible. And this act two has that dreamlike quality of trying to walk under water. I would have Furtwangler for Act 1 and Karajan with Vickers for Act 3.

That daftness aside. I have always loved the sheer glamour that Kleiber achieves and the beautiful recorded sound. On the original LPs Kleiber insisted on a fade out and fade in for interrupted side changes, that involved listening to tiny sections of the music twice. I so disliked that it almost stopped me listening to it, so it was great for me when the CDs were issued and I could junk those LPs.

Price sounds altogether wonderful, very womanly and the voice itself was so beautiful. She had terrific breath control and Kleiber cushions her so she does not have to push for extra amplitude. Fassbaender is first rate too and her highly individual voice contrasts well with Price: unlike the Studio Karajan, where in passages the two female leads sound too similar. Kolo is always alert to word meaning, so never dull, though he also never sounds glamorous. But there were so few tenors around at that point who could deal with the part. In the main I enjoy his singing. It is a great set. Time to give it another spin.

Mike

[Handelian]

Good to see this.

I have quite a few Tristans and this one has my favourite Act 2. I don't mind all the falseness of how it was recorded, it makes a very satisfying whole. I like my Tristan as narcotic as possible. And this act two has that dreamlike quality of trying to walk under water. I would have Furtwangler for Act 1 and Karajan with Vickers for Act 3.

That daftness aside. I have always loved the sheer glamour that Kleiber achieves and the beautiful recorded sound. On the original LPs Kleiber insisted on a fade out and fade in for interrupted side changes, that involved listening to tiny sections of the music twice. I so disliked that it almost stopped me listening to it, so it was great for me when the CDs were issued and I could junk those LPs.

Price sounds altogether wonderful, very womanly and the voice itself was so beautiful. She had terrific breath control and Kleiber cushions her so she does not have to push for extra amplitude. Fassbaender is first rate too and her highly individual voice contrasts well with Price: unlike the Studio Karajan, where in passages the two female leads sound too similar. Kolo is always alert to word meaning, so never dull, though he also never sounds glamorous. But there were so few tenors around at that point who could deal with the part. In the main I enjoy his singing. It is a great set. Time to give it another spin.

Mike

Of course, the even more bizarre nature of the recording was revealed when it emerged that Kleiber had not actually finished it Ashe has stormed off in one of his temperamental (and unprofessional) rages and DG had to patch the final product from rehearsal tapes. Worth having for Price's Isolde and Kleiber's incandescent conducting, which almost makes me like this work instead of admiring it. Kollo's Tristan is not really up to it and D F-D is absolutely shot. Why Kleiber picked him is a mystery. So abit of a curate's egg

[knight66]

Of course, the even more bizarre nature of the recording was revealed when it emerged that Kleiber had not actually finished it Ashe has stormed off in one of his temperamental (and unprofessional) rages and DG had to patch the final product from rehearsal tapes. Worth having for Price's Isolde and Kleiber's incandescent conducting, which almost makes me like this work instead of admiring it. Kollo's Tristan is not really up to it and D F-D is absolutely shot. Why Kleiber picked him is a mystery. So abit of a curate's egg

Unless stories of the odd way the recording was put together were in the public domain, I don't believe anyone would detect the processes. Many recordings have been assembled using whatever tapes had been made whether from rehearsals, patching or the planned recording sessions. I have been involved in such recordings. I have also been involved in performance where the conductor never managed a single full run through of the piece because of his temperamental behaviour. Many conductors could do with a kick up the backside and told to get over themselves. But what ultimately counts is what goes before the public.

Mike

[André]

C'mon, Mike, regale us with a few stories ! 

[Handelian]

Unless stories of the odd way the recording was put together were in the public domain, I don't believe anyone would detect the processes. Many recordings have been assembled using whatever tapes had been made whether from rehearsals, patching or the planned recording sessions. I have been involved in such recordings. I have also been involved in performance where the conductor never managed a single full run through of the piece because of his temperamental behaviour. Many conductors could do with a kick up the backside and told to get over themselves. But what ultimately counts is what goes before the public.

Mike

Yes one would not tell unless it was out there. I believe Kleiber was absolutely furious that it had been released without his sovereign permission. One of those conductors who definitely needed a kick up the backside, for all his vaunted genius. I must confess I have no sympathy for these men however talented. If a second violin cannot behave like that then why should a vastly talented conductor? Of course the only reason he does this because he knows he will get away with it and the second violin won't. Why I called the behaviour completely unprofessional

[knight66]

Yes one would not tell unless it was out there. I believe Kleiber was absolutely furious that it had been released without his sovereign permission. One of those conductors who definitely needed a kick up the backside, for all his vaunted genius. I must confess I have no sympathy for these men however talented. If a second violin cannot behave like that then why should a vastly talented conductor? Of course the only reason he does this because he knows he will get away with it and the second violin won't. Why I called the behaviour completely unprofessional

I think there is less of this kind of behaviour going on now. And orchestral bodies as well as individuals have brought various conductors to book about unacceptable behaviour. Kleiber always was unpredictable and to an extent unreliable. He got away with it because when he did work, he almost spoiled many musicians for working with conductors who had less talent.

Andre, I spilled the beans pretty thoroughly on the conductor thread. But Sir Alex Gibson could be terrifically unprofessional. In both Berlioz Te Deum and the Requiem he never covered the ground with the choir in rehearsal. In the only full orchestral rehearsal of the Requiem he walked off because the organ made such a puny sound. We lost about half an hour and he disappeared off again before the end of the session in sheer temper, end of rehearsal. During the actual performance he spreadeagled himself over the music and left us to fend for ourselves in the Lacrimosa, eventually he joined us again after a minute or so.

And his behaviour during the rehearsals and performance of the Te Deum meant for a very difficult performance. It was paired, unbelievably, with Belshazzar's Feast on the same programme. He had had a drink and again, simply phased out near the very start. During the interval he must have topped himself up, for the Te Deum he was so erratic it was impossible to follow him. When we did Bach Magnificat, there was one orchestral rehearsal and he suddenly stopped and letting the cat out of the bag, looking puzzled at a player he said, "Oh....there's one of you in this is there?" When he was good he was very good, but....

Mike

[Handelian]

I think there is less of this kind of behaviour going on now. And orchestral bodies as well as individuals have brought various conductors to book about unacceptable behaviour. Kleiber always was unpredictable and to an extent unreliable. He got away with it because when he did work, he almost spoiled many musicians for working with conductors who had less talent.

Andre, I spilled the beans pretty thoroughly on the conductor thread. But Sir Alex Gibson could be terrifically unprofessional. In both Berlioz Te Deum and the Requiem he never covered the ground with the choir in rehearsal. In the only full orchestral rehearsal of the Requiem he walked off because the organ made such a puny sound. We lost about half an hour and he disappeared off again before the end of the session in sheer temper, end of rehearsal. During the actual performance he spreadeagled himself over the music and left us to fend for ourselves in the Lacrimosa, eventually he joined us again after a minute or so.

And his behaviour during the rehearsals and performance of the Te Deum meant for a very difficult performance. It was paired, unbelievably, with Belshazzar's Feast on the same programme. He had had a drink and again, simply phased out near the very start. During the interval he must have topped himself up, for the Te Deum he was so erratic it was impossible to follow him. When we did Bach Magnificat, there was one orchestral rehearsal and he suddenly stopped and letting the cat out of the bag, looking puzzled at a player he said, "Oh....there's one of you in this is there?" When he was good he was very good, but....

Mike

And of course Gibson relied on the goodwill and skill of others to get him out of the mess he made. If everyone behaved like him there wouldn't have been much of a concert.

[Wendell_E]

The recently released Blu-Ray of a 2019 Rome opera production of The Fiery Angel. Devilishly good!

[knight66]

I am now listening to the Carlos Kleiber Tristan. Beside it on the shelf is the Goodall set. My liking for his work is tidal, it comes and it goes. Although this Tristan is slow, it keeps me interested. There is an overall feeling of the inevitable trajectory of each act. And in Linda Esther Gray we have basically a wonderful lost Isolde. Her main problem was said to be stage fright. She acts well with the voice and there is a telling and expressive use of portamento, I assume she was coached in detail by Goodall. I think the set is now available at mid price. Not a first choice, Mitchinson's Tristan is good, but the voice is not fresh and has a beat under pressure. But there are lots of very fine elements to the set.

I missed out on singing in a Goodall Beethoven 9th, he was ill, we got Maazel instead. So it was efficient and forgettable.

Mike

[Mandryka]

I am now listening to the Carlos Kleiber Tristan. Beside it on the shelf is the Goodall set. My liking for his work is tidal, it comes and it goes. Although this Tristan is slow, it keeps me interested. There is an overall feeling of the inevitable trajectory of each act. And in Linda Esther Gray we have basically a wonderful lost Isolde. Her main problem was said to be stage fright. She acts well with the voice and there is a telling and expressive use of portamento, I assume she was coached in detail by Goodall. I think the set is now available at mid price. Not a first choice, Mitchinson's Tristan is good, but the voice is not fresh and has a beat under pressure. But there are lots of very fine elements to the set.

I've seen Parsifal many times since, but I don't think I've seen an entirely satisfactory one.

I missed out on singing in a Goodall Beethoven 9th, he was ill, we got Maazel instead. So it was efficient and forgettable.

Mike

I saw Goodall conduct Parsifal with Siegfried Jerusalem. It was my first live Parsifal and I remember being so excited I could hardly eat beforehand. The opera was fine but there were two memorable mishaps. First, Jerusalem was standing in for someone (I was very happy to see him!) But of course he sang in German while everyone else sang in English! I suspect that they had hardly rehearsed it and there were moments when you could sense that they were on a wing and a prayer.  And in Act 3. Parsifal was wearing some sort of armour with boots tied with long laces. Somehow one of the laces came undone and he had to wonder around the stage trailing it along for quite some time.

I don't remember if I ever saw Goodall conduct a symphony, a vague memory of some Bruckner one Sunday afternoon, but it may have been someone else.

[André]

Thanks for the memories, gents! Live performances provide unique moments, to be sure. The only 'incidents' I recall are Brendel making a fuss about the tuning of his piano. Technicians changed the whole keyboard (I didn't know it could be done). Oh, and a Ida Handel violin problem, when a string snapped. The orchestra leader graciously handed her his instrument and she continued the performance. Minor mishaps.