Author Topic: Bach  (Read 1851 times)

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Offline Chaszz

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Bach
« on: July 30, 2020, 07:20:03 AM »
M
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 05:03:18 PM by Chaszz »

Offline milk

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Re: Bach
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2020, 01:54:08 AM »
No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don’t know what I need to hear right now. Help!

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Bach
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2020, 02:44:21 AM »
No talk of Bach recently. Without that, my life suddenly has less meaning. Also, I have so much Bach that I don’t know what I need to hear right now. Help!

The B minor Mass. Put on your favorite recording. If you don't have one, may I suggest Richter/Munich Bach Choir, or Gardiner on Archiv if you want something faster. Of course, there are a thousand other recordings, but these two are doing it for me right now  ;D

Offline Biffo

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Re: Bach
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2020, 03:34:25 AM »
As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative  Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Bach
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2020, 03:44:18 AM »
As this thread seems a bit open ended I will ask a question (for anybody interested). What is your favourite Bach aria? I realise many people will have dozens but mine is the beautiful recitative  Am Abend da es kühle war followed by the aria Mache dich, mein Herze, rein from the St Matthew Passion. Possibly my favourite version is Cornelius Hauptmann in Gardiner's recording (DG Archiv)

A wonderful choice! I may have to second your selection there.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline ritter

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Re: Bach
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2020, 05:03:05 AM »
My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE</a>

Tief gebückt und voller Reue” from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven’t chosen Dawn Upshaw’ s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)

And in No. 2 position, “Zerfliesse, mein Herze” from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I’m particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM</a>
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Offline amw

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Re: Bach
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2020, 05:19:12 AM »
What is your favourite Bach aria?
Could not pick between Aus Liebe will mein Heiland sterben, Können Tränen meiner Wangen, or Komm, süsses Kreuz. Perhaps slight preference for the latter for the gamba solo. I suppose they all make up one larger "meta-aria", in my defence.

Offline Biffo

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Re: Bach
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2020, 05:21:40 AM »
My favourite Bach aria is this marvel:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4XeuHyWpTLE</a>

Tief gebückt und voller Reue” from Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut BWV 199. And I haven’t chosen Dawn Upshaw’ s recording by chance; it is a close to perfect as I can imagine... :)

And in No. 2 position, “Zerfliesse, mein Herze” from the St. John Passion, BWV 245. I’m particularly fond of Evelyn Lear in this (my first exposure to the aria decades ago).

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/R8bP0bub9IM</a>

Two fine choices there - I have BWV 199 sung by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson; the disc was highly praised when first issued. I will have to give it a spin again soon.

Offline Chaszz

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Re: Bach
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 10:28:22 AM »
I started this thread on a whim and then abandoned it after several days with no replies. I see there WERE a later few replies back then. So it is still open. A couple of fantasy questions if anyone cares to consider and reply.

1. There are still a large number of Bach's compositions missing, particularly much of eldest son Friedemnn's collection. If a trunkful of them should be found somewhere in the proverbial attic, what kind of music would you hope to see in it? Choral or instrumental, church or secular, cantatas, motets, solos, concertos? Etc., etc. And why? And are there any particular works which we know were written but are missing that you would hope to find?

2. If you could take a time travel trip to Leipzig in 1748, a couple years before the Master's death, with what specific words and sentences would you inform him of his place in music history, and the development of music since his death, and his influence(s) on this development? 

Offline milk

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Re: Bach
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 08:05:24 PM »
I started this thread on a whim and then abandoned it after several days with no replies. I see there WERE a later few replies back then. So it is still open. A couple of fantasy questions if anyone cares to consider and reply.

1. There are still a large number of Bach's compositions missing, particularly much of eldest son Friedemnn's collection. If a trunkful of them should be found somewhere in the proverbial attic, what kind of music would you hope to see in it? Choral or instrumental, church or secular, cantatas, motets, solos, concertos? Etc., etc. And why? And are there any particular works which we know were written but are missing that you would hope to find?

2. If you could take a time travel trip to Leipzig in 1748, a couple years before the Master's death, with what specific words and sentences would you inform him of his place in music history, and the development of music since his death, and his influence(s) on this development?
i suppose a lot of people would expect to find another cantata. Isn’t it well-established that many cantatas were lost?

Offline Jo498

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Re: Bach
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2021, 01:24:59 AM »
There might be as much as two "years" of cantatas lost but the estimations seem to vary. Some think that a lot of the lost music was re-used anyway, others think that about 100 cantatas could be totally lost. I don't know about instrumental music; it seems even more speculative here. It seems rather likely that none of the keyboard concerti except Brandenburg 5 and two harpsichords C major was originally for keyboard, so several of the originals are missing (but that's not that much, not really new as we have the later keyboard versions and the originals might not all have been by Bach anyway, like the Vivaldi for the 4 keyboard).

In any case I would not expect anything revelatory. It's diminishing returns. How much could another 50+ cantatas in pretty much the same style (because written at roughly the same time for the same audience) add to the 200 extant ones? Maybe some nice concerti and chamber music but again, almost certainly nothing revelatory.
(One can also take the rare cases when a short piece by Bach (or Handel or Mozart or...) is actually found in some archive. Disregarding uncertain authorship, they were never anything special, AFAIK.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline milk

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Re: Bach
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2021, 02:37:49 AM »
There might be as much as two "years" of cantatas lost but the estimations seem to vary. Some think that a lot of the lost music was re-used anyway, others think that about 100 cantatas could be totally lost. I don't know about instrumental music; it seems even more speculative here. It seems rather likely that none of the keyboard concerti except Brandenburg 5 and two harpsichords C major was originally for keyboard, so several of the originals are missing (but that's not that much, not really new as we have the later keyboard versions and the originals might not all have been by Bach anyway, like the Vivaldi for the 4 keyboard).

In any case I would not expect anything revelatory. It's diminishing returns. How much could another 50+ cantatas in pretty much the same style (because written at roughly the same time for the same audience) add to the 200 extant ones? Maybe some nice concerti and chamber music but again, almost certainly nothing revelatory.
(One can also take the rare cases when a short piece by Bach (or Handel or Mozart or...) is actually found in some archive. Disregarding uncertain authorship, they were never anything special, AFAIK.)
Are many of his best pieces usually found as recycled in other formats? I wonder how likely it is to find an original masterpiece existing nowhere else? I’d love it if there were more somewhere.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Bach
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2021, 03:46:25 AM »
I think there is the idea (not quite a "theory") that Bach sometimes recycled pieces to give them broader distribution, more permanence. Not sure if it worked back then but to a certain extent in hindsight, as b minor mass and especially Xmas oratorio have a lot of recycling and since the late 19th century they are certainly far better known than the secular cantatas most of the latter is taken from.
So I think the "optimists" take this as an indication that not that much and especially not the best/most important stuff was completely lost. As some of Bach's sons and students also did care to preserve some of the music we could also expect an amount of cherry picking instead of randomness. Sure, a few very good cantatas and chamber pieces might be lost, but probably no secret masterwork.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)