Richard Taruskin, musicologist, 1945-2022

[DizzyD]

Yes, it's in Parrott's  Composers Intentions? page 359. He cites stuff in support, a journal article. The point about boys' voices being perceived as more delicate is a bit cheeky of me - but there are references in Parrott's book to that being precisely what some people felt about some renditions of Purcell's music in the 17th century : they thought boys' voices were better than women's in some contexts because women's voices were too loud and theatrical.

I bought Partott's book a few years ago when an academic said to me in conversation that it was a good summary of the state of play on this subject - but I'm not a scholar myself and so really can't vouch for his accuracy.

Yes I understand the comment about boys' voices was your impression, and it sounds reasonable. I was referring more to things like Anna Magdalena Bach singing in the Passion music in church in Leipzig. I had never heard of that happening. Then again I'm not an expert.

[Mandryka]

Yes I understand the comment about boys' voices was your impression, and it sounds reasonable. I was referring more to things like Anna Magdalena Bach singing in the Passion music in church in Leipzig. I had never heard of that happening. Then again I'm not an expert.

Parrott's reconstruction of Bach's music for Leopold's Funeral contains three arias taken from the Matthew Passion, which he argues were sung by Anna Magdalena . I think the passion had only received a single performance in Leipzig and I don't know who sang.

[prémont]

What? One just has to read the relevant texts. They're not secret.

I read Taruskin's "Text and Act" some years ago, particularly to get to know his view on HIP. His implied polemical style I found tiresome and his main ideas not strikingly original, but they were presented as if they were. My impression of his efforts stems largely from then.

[Karl Henning]

I read Taruskin's "Text and Act" some years ago, particularly to get to know his view on HIP. His implied polemical style I found tiresome and his main ideas not strikingly original, but they were presented as if they were. My impression of his efforts stems largely from then.

Most interesting, thanks!

[prémont]

Parrott's reconstruction of Bach's music for Leopold's Funeral contains three arias taken from the Matthew Passion, which he argues were sung by Anna Magdalena . I think the passion had only received a single performance in Leipzig and I don't know who sang.

I don't quite get his argument, since he as "proof" merely refers to hard-to-reach books and articles by secondary authors without quoting the text from the primary sources..

[prémont]

Most interesting, thanks!

But this is a subjective impression which maybe tells more about me than about Taruskin. Maybe a different sense of humour.

[Karl Henning]

But this is a subjective impression which maybe tells more about me than about Taruskin. Maybe a different sense of humour.

Perhaps. I've enjoyed all of the Taruskin I've read, but none of it bore upon "ancient music"

[Mandryka]

I don't quite get his argument, since he as "proof" merely refers to hard-to-reach books and articles by secondary authors without quoting the text from the primary sources..

Yes maybe there's someone with access to a university library who can let us see Samantha Owens, "Professional women musicians in early eighteenth-century Württemberg." Music & Letters 82 (1) 32-50 (2001)

https://academic.oup.com/ml/article-abstract/82/1/32/1115504?redirectedFrom=fulltext

[DizzyD]

Yes maybe there's someone with access to a university library who can let us see Samantha Owens, "Professional women musicians in early eighteenth-century Württemberg." Music & Letters 82 (1) 32-50 (2001)

https://academic.oup.com/ml/article-abstract/82/1/32/1115504?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Yeah but the point was whether or not women sang in Leipzig churches during Bach's tenure. My understanding (maybe incorrect) is that they didn't.

[Mandryka]

Here's Samantha Owens' paper (which I haven't read)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIaYop42gGTo6DotAQLyY2UYyAhsFL_x/view?usp=sharing

[Mandryka]

Yeah but the point was whether or not women sang in Leipzig churches during Bach's tenure. My understanding (maybe incorrect) is that they didn't.

As far as I can see women did not sing in Leipzig.

[DizzyD]

Here's Samantha Owens' paper (which I haven't read)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jIaYop42gGTo6DotAQLyY2UYyAhsFL_x/view?usp=sharing

Thanks for the effort in posting that paper. That looks like an interesting read.

[Florestan]

Either Bach's music is universally valid, in which case it doesn't matter whether it's played on the harpsichord or on the piano --- or it's heavily dependent on the instrument, in which case it's not universally valid. Pick your choice.

[DizzyD]

Either Bach's music is universally valid, in which case it doesn't matter whether it's played on the harpsichord or on the piano --- or it's heavily dependent on the instrument, in which case it's not universally valid. Pick your choice.

I think that's a false choice. There are degrees to which "it doesn't matter", and "heavily dependent on" is sketchy. It's possible to say it's universally valid while still preferring to hear the music on a harpsichord or a Baroque cello etc. Is Bach played by an orchestra of 30 Fender Stratocasters "valid"?

[Florestan]

I think that's a false choice. There are degrees to which "it doesn't matter", and "heavily dependent on" is sketchy. It's possible to say it's universally valid while still preferring to hear the music on a harpsichord or a Baroque cello etc.

Why, of cpurse! It's all a matter of preference. But it's exactly the "preference" that the hardcore HIP brigade will not allow. I mean, if one likes Maisky''s performance of Bach's Cello Suites one is certainly likely to be censured --- on no other ground that either a rigid ideological commitment to HIP or on the basis that "I don't like it".

[DizzyD]

Why, of cpurse! It's all a matter of preference. But it's exactly the "preference" that the hardcore HIP brigade will not allow. I mean, if one likes Maisky''s performance of Bach's Cello Suites one is certainly likely to be censured --- on no other ground that either a rigid ideological commitment to HIP or on the basis that "I don't like it".

Yeah I get frustrated with attitudes like that too BUT people are free to prefer what they want. Some people may actually prefer Bylsma or Wispelwey to Fournier or Starker. I think the pendulum will eventually swing away from HIP rigidity.

[Florestan]

people are free to prefer what they want.

Exactly, HIP be damned. 

[DavidW]

I think the pendulum will eventually swing away from HIP rigidity.

I would like that.  I rarely hear baroque era music live anymore because I think that it is presumed that MI can't play them.  We have room for both.

[DizzyD]

Exactly, HIP be damned. 

Well there are some HIP recordings that I love, Suzuki's for example, but overall what HIP tends to show me is why instruments evolved the way they did. There's a reason.  I prefer modern instrument recordings like Richter's and Rilling's...and give me Britten's interpretation of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas ANY day. I couldn't care less if it's "inauthentic".

[Florestan]

Taruskin was spot on; the HIP movement and ideology is a typical product of the 20th century which has got little, if any, to do with the 17th or 18th centuries. It is an entirely modernist concept.