The Audiophile Debate

[Todd]

You can argue that red is always the same, and has a code of ff0000. And deny those who see differences in red in different objects. After all, the code is always the same, right?

When translating what you are attempting to write to audio, yes, it's always the same.  Claims of superior/more refined/etc perception are fundamentally false.  You can't hear what is not there, nor can you see what is not there.  You can hallucinate, though.  Best not to confuse hallucinations with real things. 

[Spotted Horses]

You can argue that red is always the same, and has a code of ff0000. And deny those who see differences in red in different objects. After all, the code is always the same, right? Аnd, I have no idea what the moon is made of.

It is more subtle than that. Suppose you bought a red Saint Laurent sweater sweater in Paris and I bought the same Saint Laurent sweater in New York. What if you claimed that they are not the same, the one sold in Paris has a more vivid shade of read and the one sold in New York is an inferior version made for Americans. We could argue, do side-by-side comparisons, claim the lighting isn't the same, etc. But in the end we could get a spectrometer and measure the light reflected from each sweater to high precision. We could look at the data and if the spectra are identical the color is the same. If the spectra are not identical we could still argue about which one looks better (which would be subjective) but we'd know they are different.

The same with audio cables. If I connect my speaker with lamp cord and measure the test signal on my speaker posts, then connect my speaker with a $10,000 cable and measure the test signal on the speaker posts (high resolution, 24-bit 192 kHz ADC, etc) I can see if there is a difference or not. We could even do something sensible like try larger and larger diameter lamp cord until there is no measurable improvement.

With speaker cables there is an additional consideration, physics. A wire is a simple thing. If two wires have the same resistance, capacitance, inductance they will behave the same. All of these parameters should be as low as possible. You don't have to listen to a wire. You can just measure the properties and see which is better.

[Mandryka]

This may or may not be relevant to this discussion. Not about cable but amplifiers, but I think the same points apply


A few years ago I asked an electronic engineer who designs and builds audio equipment this question.

I am sure this has been asked and answered a thousand times before and if it's just too annoying that someone is asking it again, I'm sorry. But what is amp quality? How do you measure it? What do I look for in an amp to know that it's a quality amp?

This is the reply I got

If I knew that I'd be a wealthy man! Ultimately there is only one piece of test gear that can answer this and we all have a pair of them on the sides of our head...

There are no measurements that can tell if an amp will sound good to human ears. Sure we can say pretty reliably that an amp that measures badly will sound bad but there is no guarantee that an amp that measures amazingly good will sound anything better than average and sometime worse than average... I once designed a prototype amp that had distortion so low I couldn't measure it at all, it was flat from DC to over 100KHz, damping factor of 1000 or more etc... it sounded bloody awful! Now such an amp will not be bass light, or treble shy, or sound distorted or coloured... no no no... but it's dead easy to avoid all that... the problem will usually be (as it was with this one) a flat, lifeless, "grey", "sterile" sound that has little stereo depth and which if turned up to try and get some more life and dynamics just gets more and more of an "in yer face wall of sound".

It has nothing much to do with all the things everyone expects... it's not to do with power, with high current, with having a large power supply, with using quality parts.... all these things add a little to an already good amp but do not inherently make an amp good!

Most of it is all firmly in the realms of "nobody knows". When I design a new amp, whether it be a phono stage, power amp whatever, I haven't the faintest idea what it will sound like until I get to hear it (and neither does any other amplifier designer. If they say they do they are lying. End of).

For pretty much any parameter of an amplifier that anyone thinks is really important there is usually another amplifier around that does the opposite and yet still manages to sound great... within reason of course!

In the immortal words of Toyah... it's a mifftawy!

[Spotted Horses]

This may or may not be relevant to this discussion. Not about cable but amplifiers, but I think the same points apply


A few years ago I asked an electronic engineer who designs and builds audio equipment this question.

I am sure this has been asked and answered a thousand times before and if it's just too annoying that someone is asking it again, I'm sorry. But what is amp quality? How do you measure it? What do I look for in an amp to know that it's a quality amp?

This is the reply I got

If I knew that I'd be a wealthy man! Ultimately there is only one piece of test gear that can answer this and we all have a pair of them on the sides of our head...

There are no measurements that can tell if an amp will sound good to human ears. Sure we can say pretty reliably that an amp that measures badly will sound bad but there is no guarantee that an amp that measures amazingly good will sound anything better than average and sometime worse than average... I once designed a prototype amp that had distortion so low I couldn't measure it at all, it was flat from DC to over 100KHz, damping factor of 1000 or more etc... it sounded bloody awful! Now such an amp will not be bass light, or treble shy, or sound distorted or coloured... no no no... but it's dead easy to avoid all that... the problem will usually be (as it was with this one) a flat, lifeless, "grey", "sterile" sound that has little stereo depth and which if turned up to try and get some more life and dynamics just gets more and more of an "in yer face wall of sound".

It has nothing much to do with all the things everyone expects... it's not to do with power, with high current, with having a large power supply, with using quality parts.... all these things add a little to an already good amp but do not inherently make an amp good!

Most of it is all firmly in the realms of "nobody knows". When I design a new amp, whether it be a phono stage, power amp whatever, I haven't the faintest idea what it will sound like until I get to hear it (and neither does any other amplifier designer. If they say they do they are lying. End of).

For pretty much any parameter of an amplifier that anyone thinks is really important there is usually another amplifier around that does the opposite and yet still manages to sound great... within reason of course!

In the immortal words of Toyah... it's a mifftawy!

His reply to you may well have been marketing, and/or his target market may be people who demand distortion. Maybe his amp that has a "flat, lifeless, "grey", "sterile" sound that has little stereo depth" is fantastic.

The situation is more complicated with a power amplifier which drives dynamic speakers. The amp can work beautifully driving an 8 ohm resistor and have instabilities when connected to dynamic speakers which have inductive/capacitive/resistive impedance. I had a Denon amp that worked beautifully with one pair of speakers, but with another pair (ADS L810, as I recall) produced horrid distortion. (I'm not taking about subtle distortion, I mean buzzing and static that was louder than the signal.) I think the current custom of having a power amplifier to drive passive speakers is idiotic. Amplification should be built into the speaker, and tailored to the speakers response.

[Spotted Horses]

I'd like try active speakers sometime, Genlec or Neumann - but I'm not sure how maintainable they are.   

@Spotted Horses

What's to maintain?

[Todd]

There are no measurements that can tell if an amp will sound good to human ears.

I heard precisely the opposite from the CEO of a professional audio equipment manufacturer (speakers, amps, DSP equipment).  To be sure, the company acknowledges the audiophile market and caters to it to an extent with its DSP equipment by offering various audiophile-approved presets and the ability to fiddle with frequency response, phase, etc to their hearts' content.  (The CEO referred to it as the high end consumer market and commented approvingly on the silly high prices manufacturers get to charge.)  The audiophile market is the rump of the audio gear market.  It's filled with voodoo magic and preposterous promises - and well-heeled buyers willing to plump for poor measuring and bad sounding gear for prestige purposes. (Think Wilson speakers.)

I'd like try active speakers sometime, Genelec or Neumann

Active outperforms passive every time.  I've thought about switching several times, but haven't yet pulled the trigger.

[AnotherSpin]

It is more subtle than that. Suppose you bought a red Saint Laurent sweater sweater in Paris and I bought the same Saint Laurent sweater in New York. What if you claimed that they are not the same, the one sold in Paris has a more vivid shade of read and the one sold in New York is an inferior version made for Americans. We could argue, do side-by-side comparisons, claim the lighting isn't the same, etc. But in the end we could get a spectrometer and measure the light reflected from each sweater to high precision. We could look at the data and if the spectra are identical the color is the same. If the spectra are not identical we could still argue about which one looks better (which would be subjective) but we'd know they are different.

The same with audio cables. If I connect my speaker with lamp cord and measure the test signal on my speaker posts, then connect my speaker with a $10,000 cable and measure the test signal on the speaker posts (high resolution, 24-bit 192 kHz ADC, etc) I can see if there is a difference or not. We could even do something sensible like try larger and larger diameter lamp cord until there is no measurable improvement.

With speaker cables there is an additional consideration, physics. A wire is a simple thing. If two wires have the same resistance, capacitance, inductance they will behave the same. All of these parameters should be as low as possible. You don't have to listen to a wire. You can just measure the properties and see which is better.

If I buy two identical cables, only one in Paris and one in New York, they are likely to sound the same. If I buy two different cables in Paris, they might sound different. However, someone might not notice the difference. When I change the directionality of the same cable in my system, just reversing it, if we're talking about a cable with the same jacks, I can almost always hear the difference. What about the measurements in this case?

But, to reiterate what I've already said above. I'm not going to convince anyone of anything. I don't need to, and I won't lose sleep if someone can't hear what I hear.

[AnotherSpin]

When translating what you are attempting to write to audio, yes, it's always the same.  Claims of superior/more refined/etc perception are fundamentally false.  You can't hear what is not there, nor can you see what is not there.  You can hallucinate, though.  Best not to confuse hallucinations with real things.

What you are trying to say is that the measurement of the signal by an instrument and the process of human perception are one and the same. It is hardly a hallucination, something else. Maybe just an inability to grasp the obvious.

It's interesting that those who claim that all cables sound the same, at the same time claim that files of different resolutions are indistinguishable to the ear. Or that there is no difference between components with very different characteristics.

It's ridiculous, but humanly so understandable. People are conditioned as much as possible. It is very difficult for them to give up what is imprinted in their heads. Thinking is very much like the movement of a tram on rails.

If you don't mind, I'm not going to continue this topic.

[AnotherSpin]

I'd like try active speakers sometime, Genlec or Neumann - but I'm not sure how maintainable they are.   

@Spotted Horses

I've been using active speakers for a some time. At the very least they have the advantage that there is no compatibility issue between different speakers and amplifiers and fewer cables, which reduces the risk of having a cable that does not match well.

There are a lot of great active speakers on the market now. You could go a step further and try listening to integrated solutions where all is in one box.

[Todd]

It is hardly a hallucination, something else.

You are right, it could be something else, like the placebo effect, active self-delusion, or dishonesty. 

[Florestan]

When I change the directionality of the same cable in my system, just reversing it, if we're talking about a cable with the same jacks, I can almost always hear the difference.

Let me see if I got this right. You have a cable with jacks at both ends, say Jack A and Jack B. Do you claim that, if you insert Jack A in the input source and Jack B in the output device you hear a different sound than the sound you hear if you insert Jack B in the input source and Jack A in the output device?

[Todd]

Let me see if I got this right. You have a cable with jacks at both ends, say Jack A and Jack B. Do you claim that, if you insert Jack A in the input source and Jack B in the output device you hear a different sound than the sound you hear if you insert Jack B in the input source and Jack A in the output device?

Yes, that is precisely what AnotherSpin asserts.  There are, in fact, people who believe that electrons flow more better if cables are connected one direction vs another.  You can read for yourself how far gone AnotherSpin is.

[Florestan]

Yes, that is precisely what AnotherSpin asserts. There are, in fact, people who believe that electrons flow more better if cables are connected one direction vs another.  You can read for yourself how far gone AnotherSpin is.

I had to ask because I really could not believe my eyes. I still hope I got it all wrong and this is not what he claims. The alternative is too dire to contemplate.

[Valentino]

^Re. @Mandryka's comment: Yes, when class D modules fail it's typically terminal.
I used B&O IcePower modules for my main speakers for 11 years before the first 250ASX2 powering the bad section failed. Months after the second failed. That's when I decided to swap for Hypex. The 125ASX2 modules in the subwoofers are still fine in their fourteenth year, and I have two spares now too, originally the main speakers' mid and tweeter sections.

So I have in total 1200 W power for the main speakers, idling at 50 W. I can live with that. The subwoofer amps idle at some 7 W each.

[Mandryka]

^Re. @Mandryka's comment: Yes, when class D modules fail it's typically terminal.
I used B&O IcePower modules for my main speakers for 11 years before the first 250ASX2 powering the bad section failed. Months after the second failed. That's when I decided to swap for Hypex. The 125ASX2 modules in the subwoofers are still fine in their fourteenth year, and I have two spares now too, originally the main speakers' mid and tweeter sections.

So I have in total 1200 W power for the main speakers, idling at 50 W. I can live with that. The subwoofer amps idle at some 7 W each.

I've never had that much power. Last month I bought the most powerful amp I've ever owned, a mere 200W, and I felt that in the attacks of tones -- especially the attacks of percussive instruments like piano -  it made a difference.

The amp is a big problem because it hums badly, mechanical hum. I tried putting it out of earshot, but the high capacitance of the long interconnects caused huge system problems -- suddenly weird noises from the DAC and the crossover (there are passive subs)

The reason for the hum is that it is designed for American electricity -- 60Hz. Here in the UK we have 50Hz. So I'm having a friend build be something called a "bucking transformer" -- life's a bitch sometimes.

[Mandryka]

Does anyone believe in Cable Lifts?

https://titanaudio.co.uk/products/titan-audio-cable-lifts


Although these lifts do give an elegant cosmetic improvement to the look and feel of your system wiring the performance of the seismic damping is really where the beauty lies, by removing even the smallest amount of high frequency vibration you are allowing your cable signal to transfer with much less distortion and therefor presenting a more accurate reproduction.

[Daverz]

Does anyone believe in Cable Lifts?

https://titanaudio.co.uk/products/titan-audio-cable-lifts


Although these lifts do give an elegant cosmetic improvement to the look and feel of your system wiring the performance of the seismic damping is really where the beauty lies, by removing even the smallest amount of high frequency vibration you are allowing your cable signal to transfer with much less distortion and therefor presenting a more accurate reproduction.

The FTC needs to sue these cable manufacturers for making false claims like this.  Not gonna happen, I know... 

[AnotherSpin]

Let me see if I got this right. You have a cable with jacks at both ends, say Jack A and Jack B. Do you claim that, if you insert Jack A in the input source and Jack B in the output device you hear a different sound than the sound you hear if you insert Jack B in the input source and Jack A in the output device?

Yes, you got it right. You can check info online if you don't believe your own ears or my words. For example, see screen shot from popular UK cable company web site below (https://chord.co.uk/speaker-cable-guide). Some cable producers mark direction arrows on their cables too. Of course one may not hear the difference with crappy components and poor cables, or if one's ears are full with rubbish and brain's full with wrong concepts.

[AnotherSpin]

I had to ask because I really could not believe my eyes. I still hope I got it all wrong and this is not what he claims. The alternative is too dire to contemplate.

And if you're in Bucharest, and using standard Euro sockets in the mains, try reversing the component plugs 180 degrees, one at a time. Chances are, you'll notice a change in sound. Of course, if you don't care about sound quality, you don't have to bother.

[AnotherSpin]

Does anyone believe in Cable Lifts?

https://titanaudio.co.uk/products/titan-audio-cable-lifts


Although these lifts do give an elegant cosmetic improvement to the look and feel of your system wiring the performance of the seismic damping is really where the beauty lies, by removing even the smallest amount of high frequency vibration you are allowing your cable signal to transfer with much less distortion and therefor presenting a more accurate reproduction.

Some audio components, cables included, may be sensitive to extraneous influences such as micro vibrations or electrostatic. Sometimes the use of lifts can have an audible effect. I have heard the effect when using sophisticated Nordost speaker cables. In this case there was an effect of the lifts material also. There was a difference, for example, between pieces of wood and glass.

By the way, different ways of controlling vibration can produce very good results. When I was using active speakers, the inexpensive IsoAcoustic Bronze stands gave a very good effect on the sound.