Understanding music?

[12tone.]

It just so happens that Yehudi Menuhin wrote a book. 

I recommend you all to read it!

[jochanaan]

Is this some sad attempt at censorship?...

Not at all!  I was merely suggesting that some of the posts might be better moved to a new thread.  But on second thought, they fit well enough here.

When Romantic composers and theorists talk about "masculine" and "feminine" elements in great symphonies; when Fanny Mendelssohn could write a trio that's as great as anything her brother Felix ever wrote; when Nadia Boulanger taught many 20th-century composers their craft; when Evelyn Glennie, deaf from birth, can play percussion parts that blow the audience into the back wall--I think we can safely opine that you don't need an overbalance of testosterone to understand music.  But let's propose an experiment.  Let's take a great woman musician and put her in a head-to-head competition with men.  Will she win?

Fortunately for us, the experiment has been done again and again, every time a woman is accepted into a major orchestra or wins a competition.

[Ten thumbs]

Fortunately for us, the experiment has been done again and again, every time a woman is accepted into a major orchestra or wins a competition.

This is good news for today but does not undo the mischief of the past. Because concert promoters were for the most part men, works like Clara Wieck's Piano Concerto have become rarely heard and unknown to the general public, even though quite worthy to stand alongside those by Chopin. The point of this to this thread is that to understand music it is best not to rely too much on Groves, which sadly is still laced with Chauvinism. I'm sure that these prejudices extend to other areas.

[JoshLilly]

Exhibit C: Louise Farrenc symphonies

[lukeottevanger]

This is good news for today but does not undo the mischief of the past. Because concert promoters were for the most part men, works like Clara Wieck's Piano Concerto have become rarely heard and unknown to the general public, even though quite worthy to stand alongside those by Chopin. The point of this to this thread is that to understand music it is best not to rely too much on Groves, which sadly is still laced with Chauvinism. I'm sure that these prejudices extend to other areas.

Charles Rosen has an interesting line on this which I'm sure you are familiar with. He says the tragedy is not that Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn (etc.) wrote music as good as their male counterparts but ignored by a male-oriented concert world; quite frankly, Rosen suggests, their music isn't quite as good as Robert Schumann's and Felix Mendelssohn's (etc.) (and on the fairly small amount of evidence I've seen, and comparing like with like, I'd tend to agree with him), and the real tragedy is that the social conditions of the time didn't allow them to fulfill the great potential which maybe would have made equally good.

This is a paraphrase; I'll have to look out the exact quotation.

[EmpNapoleon]

...the real tragedy is that the social conditions of the time didn't allow them to fulfill the great potential which maybe would have made equally good.

...and if I had a different social condition I would be equally as good as Wagner.  Damn historical materialism!

Women understand music as well as men, when listening to it.  Maybe.  However, men create better music.  And here again I've stumbled upon the "greatness in music" train of thought.  It's just that all my cds are from male composers.  Though, without women, opera wouldn't exist.

A woman nourishes an infant like a man does his art.  Obviously women artists find time for both, but there are not many of them.  There are beginning to be more female artists and scholars.  This is a bit off topic, but my psychology classes are dominated my females.  In one of them, there are 44 females and 11 males.  It would be hard to concentrate if the research wasn't boring. 

[jochanaan]

...Women understand music as well as men, when listening to it.  Maybe.  However, men create better music.

Uh, how do you know for sure?  I don't.  It's safe to say that neither of us has heard all the lost works by women (or men, for that matter), or all the works that women might have composed if they had been encouraged to.

[EmpNapoleon]

Uh, how do you know for sure?  I don't.  It's safe to say that neither of us has heard all the lost works by women (or men, for that matter), or all the works that women might have composed if they had been encouraged to.

I don't know for sure.  But what you say is like saying the following: "How do you know Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever?  What about the lost Africans and inner city kids who were never encouraged to play basketball, or never had the resources?"

[Larry Rinkel]

Charles Rosen has an interesting line on this which I'm sure you are familiar with. He says the tragedy is not that Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn (etc.) wrote music as good as their male counterparts but ignored by a male-oriented concert world; quite frankly, Rosen suggests, their music isn't quite as good as Robert Schumann's and Felix Mendelssohn's (etc.) (and on the fairly small amount of evidence I've seen, and comparing like with like, I'd tend to agree with him), and the real tragedy is that the social conditions of the time didn't allow them to fulfill the great potential which maybe would have made equally good.

This is a paraphrase; I'll have to look out the exact quotation.

See The Romantic Generation, 659-660. Rosen's point is that Clara Wieck was potentially a major talent, but Schumann discouraged her composing (as Mahler did with Alma), and Clara herself decided to renounce composing before her marriage. Brahms did nothing to encourage her either.

[Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber]

What the heck do y'all mean by "understanding music?"  I can understand or recognize a piece's structure, how themes are interrelated and varied, and so on...but "understand music" I cannot do.  I don't see music as rocket science or an instruction manual for programming your VCR DVD recorder iPhone.

Can those who understand so much better than I please explain what you mean by this?

Thanks!

This reminds me of a short film I saw at EMP in Seattle which was about some postmodern artist. I can't remember who it was but there was an exhibition of his there in Dec 2006 (I think) if that helps. Anyway this film had various people looks into the camera, which was meant to be a hypothetical painting. They said all sorts of different things from "looks cool" to more technical stuff by an art history professor or whoever. The bottom line was (when the curator of some museum came out) that every one of those people understood the painting & nothing they said was incorrect. When I say I don't understand modern music or art I've found that what I really mean is I have no appreciation for it. Once I find out what school the artist is from & what the artist was getting at when they created it I appreciate it more. & then i say I understand it.  I guess it's the same sort of thing as with other stuff like poetry & music. I didn't like poetry much until I had an english instructor who gave background on the stuff we were studying & then I finally appreciated (understood) poetry. (but I still don't want to be a poet)

[Ten thumbs]

Charles Rosen has an interesting line on this which I'm sure you are familiar with. He says the tragedy is not that Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn (etc.) wrote music as good as their male counterparts but ignored by a male-oriented concert world; quite frankly, Rosen suggests, their music isn't quite as good as Robert Schumann's and Felix Mendelssohn's (etc.) (and on the fairly small amount of evidence I've seen, and comparing like with like, I'd tend to agree with him), and the real tragedy is that the social conditions of the time didn't allow them to fulfill the great potential which maybe would have made equally good.

Fanny could not keep pace with her brother because she was confined to home and not able to develop through mixing with the outside musical fraternity. There was absolutely no point in her attempting a symphony. On the other hand she was able to concentrate on salon music, e.g lieder and piano music. Felix believed her lieder were better than his and he wasn't joking when he opined that they are the most beautiful that anyone on Earth could make - in fact he avoided competing with her in that area.

[karlhenning]

See The Romantic Generation, 659-660. Rosen's point is that Clara Wieck was potentially a major talent, but Schumann discouraged her composing (as Mahler did with Alma), and Clara herself decided to renounce composing before her marriage. Brahms did nothing to encourage her either.

Exactly;  as circumstance were, we are not in any position to make a sober comparison.

The position that Fanny and Clara were or would have been as great as or greater than, is at best speculative, at less-than-best, a faith-based initiative 

[karlhenning]

Felix believed her lieder were better than his and he wasn't joking when he opined that they are the most beautiful that anyone on Earth could make - in fact he avoided competing with her in that area.

But he didn't really, if one considers the Lieder ohne Worte 

[EmpNapoleon]

Mathilde Scheonberg's 10-tone system would have flourished if she was encouraged.

What about this?     http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2006/04/24/bach-wife.html

[Ten thumbs]

But he didn't really, if one considers the Lieder ohne Worte 

Some of which may have been by Fanny. In any case these pieces lack the power one finds in her own solo 'lied'.

[karlhenning]

Mathilde Scheonberg's 10-tone system would have flourished if she was encouraged.

Beauty! :-)

[jochanaan]

Exactly;  as circumstance were, we are not in any position to make a sober comparison.

The position that Fanny and Clara were or would have been as great as or greater than, is at best speculative, at less-than-best, a faith-based initiative 

Probably true.  Of course, The Women's Philharmonic was also a faith-based initiative.

Has anyone heard Louise Farrenc's symphonies?  I confess that I haven't...

[karlhenning]

Probably true.  Of course, The Women's Philharmonic was also a faith-based initiative.

Sure!  And since one's energies are not an unlimited resource, I prefer to act in faith on living artists/performers than on speculation regarding the deceased . . . .

[Ten thumbs]

Sure!  And since one's energies are not an unlimited resource, I prefer to act in faith on living artists/performers than on speculation regarding the deceased . . . .

Indeed, why speculate when we can hear and enjoy what exists? Incidentally Rosen is a man, so he can hardly be said to be objective.
One useful key to understanding music is the ability to recognize musical styles. Sometimes, Haydn can sound similar to Mozart but it is useful to avoid the mistake of guessing that a Mozart symphony is by Tchaikowski. Believe me, it has happened!

[karlhenning]

Incidentally Rosen is a man, so he can hardly be said to be objective.

Well since anyone discussing the topic is either a man or a woman, I guess we abandon all hope of objectivity, eh?