Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

The up-tick in sonic delight has been immediate, and seems entirely sustainable : )

Great! Super! Brilliant!

[Opus106]

Pretty sure that we have them thoroughly outclassed in the spending aspect though.    (at least I do, according to my wife).

Not fair. The number of Brian recordings out there (including air-checks, in-house and all) would probably be less than the number of the 'Surprise' symphonies alone.

[Gurn Blanston]

Not fair. The number of Brian recordings out there (including air-checks, in-house and all) would probably be less than the number of the 'Surprise' symphonies alone.

You've firmly grasped my point, Navneeth.    I have personally done my share by not spending a cent on Brian in the last 3 years. It balances out those Haydnistas who felt the need to experiment.   0:)

[Opus106]

Those Brianites must now be using some mind-controlling device, as now even we, here, are talking about Brian (regardless of whether in the best of terms or not). Orfero, I suspect, is one of them. Infiltration and inception successfully completed.

[Gurn Blanston]

Harrumph... well, speaking of Haydn, I am currently working on part 2 of the divertimentos essay. Nav, the more I work with that table code, the more I admire your perseverance in getting the original tables set up. I've merely hijacked your code.

Does anyone take or not take issue with my premise that Op 1 & 2 should be included in Hoboken II rather than Hob III?  I should have thought that would be more controversial.

[Karl Henning]

Does anyone take or not take issue with my premise that Op 1 & 2 should be included in Hoboken II rather than Hob III?  I should have thought that would be more controversial.

I am not competent to form an opinion . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

I am not competent to form an opinion . . . .

I can furnish more info; I actually intend to do so in part 2. But the essential issue, IMO, is this: simply because publishers and musicians of the 1760's & '70's were desperate for some repertoire, is that sufficient reason for a cataloger in the 20th century to adopt their version of things for the sake of tradition, or should he have faced up to the fact that these works belong in a different group?

IMO, Hoboken should have been repairing errors rather than perpetuating them.

[Opus106]

Nav, the more I work with that table code, the more I admire your perseverance in getting the original tables set up. I've merely hijacked your code.

Perseverance?! Running a script which repeatedly prints the table code and its contents row after row, all of which is completed in a blink of an eye, doesn't require any of that!

[Gurn Blanston]

It all depends on whether there has grown up a body of literature based on the traditional listings and if departing from that tradition might lead to confusion and a lack of certainty about what has been written about the works in question and how to find all the articles.

Well, there really wasn't, pre-Hoboken. There certainly is now though, so that much harder to correct. Before Hoboken there were the actual published scores, by such as Pleyel and Breitkopf. It would have been oh-so-easy at that time (early 1950's) to set things right. 

Perseverance?! Running a script which repeatedly prints the table code and its contents row after row, all of which is completed in a blink of an eye, doesn't require any of that!

Oh, a script, eh? You rascal, I did all the changing manually. I don't know from scripts.  Is there a published history of them? 

[Karl Henning]

Nav is indeed a rascal, albeit a likeable one.

[Opus106]

Oh, a script, eh? You rascal, I did all the changing manually. I don't know from scripts.  Is there a published history of them? 

I don't have it with me, but it's pretty easy to re-write.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't have it with me, but it's pretty easy to re-write.

Not if you are clueless. I need an instruction manual, which I can probably find online except I don't even know the name of the language I'm working with.

[Opus106]

Not if you are clueless. I need an instruction manual, which I can probably find online except I don't even know the name of the language I'm working with.

Erm... of course. (I didn't mean to say that it'll happen with the flick of a switch; just that it wouldn't take long for me to recreate it. ) This can be achieved with almost any language which can read text from a file and write things to a file (which is almost every language). I did it with Python.

[Gurn Blanston]

Erm... of course. (I didn't mean to say that it'll happen with the flick of a switch; just that it wouldn't take long for me to recreate it. ) This can be achieved with almost any language which can read text from a file and write things to a file (which is almost every language). I did it with Python.

Oh, Python, eh? And I'm just creating an array and recursing text into it? I actually do all my writing in Word, that's why I copy and paste your code and then just keep adding to it. It's primitive, but then, so am I, really.

[Gurn Blanston]

Any Haus-mates heard this?



Great musicianship of course, the sound has a concert-hall distance to it, which works well with the balance. The real shocker is the finale of Le Matin , compared to my other (6) recordings and a few other times I compared online, this finale is anywhere from a minute-and-a-half to over three-minutes longer. It definitely fits, just not accustomed to this tempo. It feels more like Moderato, but nowhere near the Presto that many groups seem to use.

It's on Spotify, which is where I'm listening to it. On to Le Midi now, again, very impressive.

Greg,
I was curious enough about your observation to finally drop a dime on this disk and when it finally came yesterday, to compare it to the versions that I already have in stock.

First let me note that the correct tempo indication for the finale is 'Allegro'. And then also I want to make a very brief comment upon the oddity, observed by myself before but never quite explained, that overall timing and the perception of speed are not always the same thing. Perhaps someone knows why the fastest timing isn't always the fastest 'seeming' to the ear? Or why 2 versions with identical timing don't sound the same speed. Odd to me.....

OK, so ranked in order of perceived fleetness;

Hogwood    - 4:23
Goodman    - 4:23
Haselböck   - 4:30
Freiburg       - 4:46
Angerer        - 4:46
Harnoncourt - 4:36
Apollo Ens    - 4:36
Kuijken        -  6:02

Unquestionably slower, exactly as you noted. A pace that Beethoven would later call 'Allegro, ma non troppo'.   However, I think it is closer to what the correct tempo and pace should be. It has plenty of breathing room, and the obligatto instruments in particular have plenty of room to work out. I like it, just like you say, after getting accustomed to. Thanks for pointing that out.

[TheGSMoeller]

I just ordered it [Kuikjen] from Presto myself, Gurn. One you didn't mention, that I do have, is Marriner' at 3:06, I'll need to revisit this evening, but I have a feeling that he's leaving out a repeat, perhaps?

Also, here's some other Haydn I just recently purchased along with the Kuijken...

One Schubert...




And a bunch of Haydn...

         


...the one with the profile of the unknown man is String Quartets Op. 77 and Op. 103 performed by the Edding Quartet, which I listened to on Spotify and it is phenomenal, might be the best 77/103 I've heard.

[Gurn Blanston]

I just ordered it [Kuikjen] from Presto myself, Gurn. One you didn't mention, that I do have, is Marriner' at 3:06, I'll need to revisit this evening, but I have a feeling that he's leaving out a repeat, perhaps?

Also, here's some other Haydn I just recently purchased along with the Kuijken...

Ah, good move, I would say. I would tend to believe that your Marriner does just that; dropping repeats was SOP in the pre-HIP days. No way he lops an extra minute off from Hogwood; his flautist would be in intensive care!!    I note that Fischer is at 4:26 and Dorati at 4:50. I should go back and play them to see what combination of tempo and repeats brings them there. For Fischer, I would say that he plays the repeats and at the same tempo as the HIPsters. Dorati, though, not so sure. That will be for another evening though!

That does look like a nice selection there. I've never heard that group playing trios on Naxos. Please let us know what you think of them. I've been curious about that Vienna Piano Trio disk for a while too.

PS - I got the Eddings disk yesterday, haven't had time to play it yet though. According to the booklet, that picture is also inside with the caption "Franz Joseph Haydn".      I think it's the first violinist though, actually.

 

[TheGSMoeller]

Ah, good move, I would say. I would tend to believe that your Marriner does just that; dropping repeats was SOP in the pre-HIP days. No way he lops an extra minute off from Hogwood; his flautist would be in intensive care!!    I note that Fischer is at 4:26 and Dorati at 4:50. I should go back and play them to see what combination of tempo and repeats brings them there. For Fischer, I would say that he plays the repeats and at the same tempo as the HIPsters. Dorati, though, not so sure. That will be for another evening though!

That does look like a nice selection there. I've never heard that group playing trios on Naxos. Please let us know what you think of them. I've been curious about that Vienna Piano Trio disk for a while too.

PS - I got the Eddings disk yesterday, haven't had time to play it yet though. According to the booklet, that picture is also inside with the caption "Franz Joseph Haydn".      I think it's the first violinist though, actually.

Listening to Marriner now, it has almost the exact same tempo as Goodman.

I've become fascinated with Piano Trio in D Major, No. 24, listened to the complete piece by the Kungsbacka Trio and immediately purchased the disc. I wanted to sample another performance and came across the Vienna Trio, and similar to the recently discussed Kuijken Matin finale, there was an obvious contrast between Vienna Trio's Allegro, ma dolce and Kingsbacka's Allegro, ma dolce finale of the trio No. 24. Kungsbacka swings, almost to a quick-step, but it's still dolce. Vienna Trio are smooth, and slightly slower, more delicate in their attacks, but again still dolce, possibly a bit more.
Anyway, they both are good discs, and the Kungsbacka/Naxos sound is very nice with a solid bass presence which is extra nice with a piano trio.

I haven't received the Edding yet, but I might be the most excited for that one, what I've heard is thrilling. Let's hope they record more Haydn quartets! 

And...the Takacs Op. 74 is beautiful, especially the "Rider", great sonics and balance.

[Madiel]

Random thought re piano trios: I have trios 24 to 31, thanks to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion (Susan Tomes is my idol).

But it annoys the heck out of me that they released 2 volumes and didn't keep Haydn's groupings together.  No.27 is on the disc that also has 24 to 26, instead of being with 28 and 29 like it should be. I mention this because I can see that those Naxos ones have been planned more thoughtfully.

I'm looking at expanding my Haydn symphonies past the 'London' works, and I suspect I may face the same issue.  I've no doubt I can pick up a set of 'Paris' symphonies somewhere, but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

[Gurn Blanston]

Random thought re piano trios: I have trios 24 to 31, thanks to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion (Susan Tomes is my idol).

But it annoys the heck out of me that they released 2 volumes and didn't keep Haydn's groupings together.  No.27 is on the disc that also has 24 to 26, instead of being with 28 and 29 like it should be. I mention this because I can see that those Naxos ones have been planned more thoughtfully.

I'm looking at expanding my Haydn symphonies past the 'London' works, and I suspect I may face the same issue.  I've no doubt I can pick up a set of 'Paris' symphonies somewhere, but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

I know just what you mean. Breaking up sets and recombining them is rampant in the industry, simply because producers don't give a damn about what thoughtful listeners might actually prefer. 

You will probably have more joy with the symphonies though. Many 'Paris' sets, as you surmise. Also ones like this;



a highly recommended choice.  Lots of options out there, just need being a bit picky so you don't get stuck with lots of duplication. No need for that!