Top 5 Karajan Recordings

[Tsaraslondon]

Having originally plumped for 5 opera sets, I'm now going to cheat and go for 5 in other fields

Debussy: La Mer/Prelude & Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe (DG 1965)
Sibelius: Symphony no 4 (DG)
Mahler: Symphony no 6
Mahler: Symphony no 9 (DG live)
R Strauss: Tod und Verklaerung and Metamorphosen (DG 1983)

[knight66]

Debussy: La Mer/Prelude & Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe (DG 1965)


Oh, yes, how could that one not have been at the top of my list.

Mike

[MDL]

Debussy: La Mer (DG)
Prokofiev: Symphony No.5
Mahler: Symphony 9 (live)


I'm only putting three because I've yet to hear his Sibelius Symphony No.4 (DG) or his first recording of Shostakovich Symphony No.10. I've heard great things about these recordings and I'm sure I'd want to include them.

Recordings that I have heard that I rate:

Mahler: Symphony No.6 (although it's a bit civil)
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (the '60s recording, not the remake)
Tschaikovsky: Symphony No.6 ('60s again)
Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring (the '70s remake, not the weird '60s recording. The remake is far from being my favourite Rite, but it's a fascinating and at times impressive performance)

[head-case]

As for the first digital recording, or rather DG's first digital recording, now that I think on it, I am still rather certain it was a Mozart Zauberflöte, perhaps by Levine. And Karajan's own first digital recording was also a Zauberflöte if memory serves, as I said above. But the Alpensinfonie was, as you pointed out, the first Karajan CD.

It is quite irritating to have you apologize for being late in posting incorrect information.    The first digital recording by DG was Karajan's Zauberflote, which was recorded in January 1980 and released on LP.  This fact is mentioned by Sony in their biographical sketch for Karajan.

http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/karajan/bio.html

I owned this particular recording on LP, and it sounded awful. 

Whether Karajan's Alpine was the first CD, I can't off any direct evidence, except that the catalog number of the original CD edition (which I still have) was 400 039-2, implying it was the 39th CD release by polygram.  (The original LP edition was 2532 015) I have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2).  My recollection is that Karajan's Alpine was marketed as a supposedly audiophile recording upon its original release on LP.  I agree that from an engineering standpoint it was a botch.  Good that we have the Sony video.

[dirkronk]

I have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2). 

The release of early CDs doesn't always coincide with the assurance that the original recordings were digital, if that's of any importance to you. The Kondrashin/COA Scheherazade, for example, was an analog recording but was chosen over other digital recordings of the same work for its first Polygram appearance on CD simply because the performance was judged to be a superior one. Or so say contemporary sources, including the Penguin fellows.


Dirk

[head-case]

The release of early CDs doesn't always coincide with the assurance that the original recordings were digital, if that's of any importance to you. The Kondrashin/COA Scheherazade, for example, was an analog recording but was chosen over other digital recordings of the same work for its first Polygram appearance on CD simply because the performance was judged to be a superior one. Or so say contemporary sources, including the Penguin fellows.

Dirk

That is quite right.  I did not mean to imply that there is a well defined relationship between CD catalog numbers and original recording dates, especially since the first digital recordings were initially issued on LP.  My assumption is that the catalog numbers correlate with the order in which the CDs themselves were issued.

[Renfield]

It is quite irritating to have you apologize for being late in posting incorrect information.    The first digital recording by DG was Karajan's Zauberflote, which was recorded in January 1980 and released on LP.  This fact is mentioned by Sony in their biographical sketch for Karajan.

http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/karajan/bio.html

I owned this particular recording on LP, and it sounded awful. 

Whether Karajan's Alpine was the first CD, I can't off any direct evidence, except that the catalog number of the original CD edition (which I still have) was 400 039-2, implying it was the 39th CD release by polygram.  (The original LP edition was 2532 015) I have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2).  My recollection is that Karajan's Alpine was marketed as a supposedly audiophile recording upon its original release on LP.  I agree that from an engineering standpoint it was a botch.  Good that we have the Sony video.

And that proves the important of one checking one's sources. I suppose the fact that I was slightly irrate with how unclear and "terminologically muddled" this whole discussion was had a hand in it, as well.


Further apologies, then. And let me confirm that:

a) Apparently, the first digital recording issued by DG was indeed Karajan's Zauberflöte. What I am suspecting is the source of my confusion is the fact that another Zauberflöte, not necessarily digital or on CD, came out at that time (or close to it), since I do remember Richard Osborne saying how Karajan's wasn't better than that, which made me feel at least that "historical first" was wasted.

b) I have no evidence that Karajan's "Alpensinfonie" was the first CD DG issued, bar perhaps a few comments from this forum, at an earlier time. So perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't - either way,  I don't know, and I wasn't around back then to remember.

c) I still like the CD version of "Ein Alpensinfonie", and do not find it horribly engineered, aurally mutilated, or a "botch". It's not a recording triumph, it's not representative of what they theoretically could have achieved, perhaps, but I'll still take it over any other recording I've heard on CD, wonderful as later ones might be (see: Wit).

Then again, concerning this last point, I like Karajan's last Beethoven cycle, and even the recording of the 9th symphony in it; something which I am aware approaches a taboo, so perhaps my taste is simply skewed, bad, or downright odd. Either way, I'll stick with it.

[M forever]

b) I have no evidence that Karajan's "Alpensinfonie" was the first CD DG issued, bar perhaps a few comments from this forum, at an earlier time. So perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't - either way,  I don't know, and I wasn't around back then to remember.

You weren't around to hear them play that live either, I assume. It's not that likely then that you have ever heard that piece played by any really good orchestra in a good hall - have you ever actually heard that live?
I don't specifically remember if it really was the first CD DG released, but I remember specifically that they made a lot of fuss about it. There was a press conference with Karajan in which he goofed around with the CD, peeped through the hole in the middle, stuck his finger through it and rotated it around (actually pretty silly all that). On the old DG website, there was a company history section which IIRC mentioned that it was actually their first CD release - but that section doesn't seem to be included in the new website (yet?).

c) I still like the CD version of "Ein Alpensinfonie", and do not find it horribly engineered, aurally mutilated, or a "botch". It's not a recording triumph, it's not representative of what they theoretically could have achieved, perhaps, but I'll still take it over any other recording I've heard on CD, wonderful as later ones might be (see: Wit).

We are all happy for you that you draw so much pleasure from that CD, and nobody wants (or could) take that away from you. However, if you don't hear how bad the engineering is, then you really don't have well developed aural and musical perception. I would even go as far as saying that it may be the worst sounding Alpensinfonie recording I have ever heard (apart from obviously "historical" ones such as Fried, Strauss, Böhm) . Unfortunately, the very special quality of sound Karajan achieved with the BP especially in this piece was maybe the main strongpoint of his interpretation. It was huge and rich, but also very nuanced and it had an incredible sense of balance and fine detail even on that scale. It also had some kind of "inner glow", it sounded as if the music simply happened, formed itself fro pure sound matter. None of that really comes across in the flat, blary, harsh and muddy recording. I especially lament the lack of fine detail in the quieter passages - the bigger passages can only be captured "scaled down" anyway.
There are a lot of recordings which sound much better, in many different ways, and probably also musically better ones - and I am saying that as someone for whom those live performances were among the greatest musical experiences I ever had as a listener.
Actually, the recording made by Sony with Mehta a few years later, while still a little on the harsh and bright side, represents what the BP sounded like under Karajan much better than his own recording. Mehta didn't mess much with the interpretation anyway. He basically just triggered the orchestra and they played it more or less the same way they had played it under Karajan. Except that Mehta couldn't sustain the long line as well as Karajan did - which shows that beyond rehearsing a piece meticulously (and Karajan rehearsed it a lot with them), it still makes a difference in the concert who is actually waving the stick.

Then again, concerning this last point, I like Karajan's last Beethoven cycle, and even the recording of the 9th symphony in it; something which I am aware approaches a taboo, so perhaps my taste is simply skewed, bad, or downright odd. Either way, I'll stick with it.

That last cycle was basically completely superfluous. Live (and I heard those performances live around the time they made the recordings, too, I was actually in the sessions for the 9th) that sounded much more like the 70s cycle. They did a much better job at capturing the sound of that back then. You get a much better and realistic idea of Karajan's late Beethoven from the 70s cycle and from the 1982 video of the Eroica.

[Renfield]

We are all happy for you that you draw so much pleasure from that CD, and nobody wants (or could) take that away from you. However, if you don't hear how bad the engineering is, then you really don't have well developed aural and musical perception. I would even go as far as saying that it may be the worst sounding Alpensinfonie recording I have ever heard (apart from obviously "historical" ones such as Fried, Strauss, Böhm) . Unfortunately, the very special quality of sound Karajan achieved with the BP especially in this piece was maybe the main strongpoint of his interpretation. It was huge and rich, but also very nuanced and it had an incredible sense of balance and fine detail even on that scale. It also had some kind of "inner glow", it sounded as if the music simply happened, formed itself fro pure sound matter. None of that really comes across in the flat, blary, harsh and muddy recording. I especially lament the lack of fine detail in the quieter passages - the bigger passages can only be captured "scaled down" anyway.
There are a lot of recordings which sound much better, in many different ways, and probably also musically better ones - and I am saying that as someone for whom those live performances were among the greatest musical experiences I ever had as a listener.

You are still assuming I think the CD is well-recorded, which I am not. However, I personally compare compact disc audio quality in a continuum from that of the earliest orchestral recording in my collection (late 1920's), to the present day.

More specifically here, I also think you are overlooking the fact that I am not looking to hear Karajan's live reading "in a can". I am simply listening to what there is to listen, and say I prefer it to other recordings of Eine Alpensinfonie.

Therefore, my having listened to it live or not (which indeed I haven't) has little to do with how I personally evaluate this recording under my current approach.

If at some point in the future I decide that my recordings are important only as "something-that-approaches-a-live-concert-but-is-not-quite-there", and after I throw away most of them as a result, I will perhaps have reason to make this comparison.

Until then, I will visit the concert hall when I want to hear live music, and for recordings I will stay at home; "apples and oranges". And to be more on-topic, I never mentioned "audio quality" in any shape or form as a criterion. Otherwise, the Brahms (see my list) would also be redundant, would it not?

[head-case]

You weren't around to hear them play that live either, I assume. It's not that likely then that you have ever heard that piece played by any really good orchestra in a good hall - have you ever actually heard that live?
I don't specifically remember if it really was the first CD DG released, but I remember specifically that they made a lot of fuss about it. There was a press conference with Karajan in which he goofed around with the CD, peeped through the hole in the middle, stuck his finger through it and rotated it around (actually pretty silly all that). On the old DG website, there was a company history section which IIRC mentioned that it was actually their first CD release - but that section doesn't seem to be included in the new website (yet?).

The DG web site does have a page says that "Deutsche Grammophon was the first to enter the market, when Herbert von Karajan recorded Richard Strauss's 'Eine Alpensinfonie' with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1981 - the first classical work to find its way on to compact disc."

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/about/aboutdgg4.htms?PAGE=page4

It seems to me this claim is marketing hype.  How could they have "entered the market" by making a recording in 1981 when the first CDs were manufactured in August 1982 (before there were any players available to the public) and when DG had been making digital recordings for a year before the Alpine was recorded? The catalog numbers imply that if the Alpine was issued first, it was among at least 38 other releases. 

[vandermolen]

I am not a great admirer of Karajan but my favourites are:

Honegger symphonies 2 and (especially) 3 "Liturgique" (an unrivalled performance)

Sibelius Tapiola (DGG)

Sibelius Symphony 4 (DGG)

Shostakovich Symphony 10 (earlier DGG version)

Havergal Brian's "Gothic Symphony" (hahaha)

[knight66]

You did get me to do a double take there.

I will now add.....

The earlier Bach B minor Mass on EMI, fleet and cristaline, nothing like the later soup.

The earlier Rosenkavalier, EMI.

Beethoven Missa Solemnis DGG, Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Berry.

Puccini Tosca, Decca Leontine Price.

Mike

[Bogey]

Seven come to mind:

Bruckner No. 4 (EMI-'71)
Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings (DG-'81)
Beethoven Symphony No. 1 (DG-'62/'63)
Grieg From Holberg's Time (DG-'82)
Honegger Symphonies No. 2 and 3 (DG-'72/'73)
Beethoven Symphony No. 5 (DG-'62/'63)
Rossini William Tell Overture (DG-'84)

[M forever]

I am not a great admirer of Karajan but my favourites are:

Honegger symphonies 2 and (especially) 3 "Liturgique" (an unrivalled performance)

It aggravates me to this day that they played the "Liturgique" live with him in Berlin in 1984 or 85 or so and that wasn't recorded again even though in those last years, they recorded almost everything he did. That was an *extremely* impressive performance. After the intermission, they played Brahms 1, IIRC. Which *was* recorded around that time even though I don't know if it was at that occasion. By which I don't mean the actual concerts, since very few of the Karajan recordings DG made in those years (or indeed throughout all the time he worked with them) were live recordings (very, very unfortunately), they were all those silly studio productions which were recorded by DG and filmed by Telemondial and which were staged to look like live concerts even thought they were really studio productions. But those studio audio/video productions were typically combined with the live concerts in the way that they rehearsed and filmed/recorded all week and then played the program live on the weekends.

The DG web site does have a page says that "Deutsche Grammophon was the first to enter the market, when Herbert von Karajan recorded Richard Strauss's 'Eine Alpensinfonie' with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1981 - the first classical work to find its way on to compact disc."

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/about/aboutdgg4.htms?PAGE=page4

It seems to me this claim is marketing hype.  How could they have "entered the market" by making a recording in 1981 when the first CDs were manufactured in August 1982 (before there were any players available to the public) and when DG had been making digital recordings for a year before the Alpine was recorded? The catalog numbers imply that if the Alpine was issued first, it was among at least 38 other releases. 

How? Very simple. They made the recording in 1981 but only released it on CD a year or so later. Not at all unusual.

You are still assuming I think the CD is well-recorded, which I am not. However, I personally compare compact disc audio quality in a continuum from that of the earliest orchestral recording in my collection (late 1920's), to the present day.

Me too. But that recording also fares extremely badly when compared in the context of other roughly contemporary recordings of this or other roughly similar orchestral literature. It's just really bad by any standard.

More specifically here, I also think you are overlooking the fact that I am not looking to hear Karajan's live reading "in a can". I am simply listening to what there is to listen, and say I prefer it to other recordings of Eine Alpensinfonie.

Sorry to hear that! There are a lot of better recordings, definitely sonically and also musically. Karajan was a great Strauss conductor who was very aware of the "idiomatic" style of playing this music, as many of his very good Strauss recordings show. He also brought his very own type of and feeling for sound to the music. Strauss shouldn't be played like one big gooey sound sauce, but like complex chamber music with a lot of freedom and long musical lines. There is also a lot of fine inner detail and very nuanced textures - which Karajan brought out admirably in his performances and also in many of his recordings. Unfortunately that is not represented in this recording though, and that is why I dislike it so much because it is neither good Strauss in general nor good Karajan Strauss in particular. What was particularly impressive about Karajan's Strauss was that as much substance, weight and richness of sound it had, it was extremly finetuned and amazingly transparent. But in this recording, it is either a massive blaring block of sound (in louder passages) or a distant haze with very little fine detail definition in the softer passages. A real pity, especially considering how good that really was live, but also when compared just to other recordings with other interpreters.
It would be interesting to see how much of that could be saved if they went back to the original multitrack and remixed it from scratch instead of just superficially polishing it up a little like they did for the "Gold" edition (where they did tone down some of the more atrocious elements of the original release, like the horns blaring in your face as if they played on milk cans in the dotted passages in "Der Anstieg", to cite just one of many examples - a sonic insult to the horn section which really sounded great there and in many other places). But that's not going to happen - way too much work and too expensive...

If at some point in the future I decide that my recordings are important only as "something-that-approaches-a-live-concert-but-is-not-quite-there", and after I throw away most of them as a result, I will perhaps have reason to make this comparison.

How? You lack the live listening experience to make such a comparison. It is pretty obvious that you don't even understand what I am actually talking about.

Until then, I will visit the concert hall when I want to hear live music, and for recordings I will stay at home; "apples and oranges". And to be more on-topic, I never mentioned "audio quality" in any shape or form as a criterion. Otherwise, the Brahms (see my list) would also be redundant, would it not?

Not necessarily. Just because a recording sounds "historical" from a technical point of view, that doesn't mean that it can't be an effective recording in the way the available technical means were used to transport the musical content. Which is something that Karajan Alpensinfonie impressively demonstrates. They could have done so much better given what was available technically at the time. But they didn't. There is not more detail in this recording than in Böhm's 1956 mono recording. It may be in stereo and both the frequency range and dynamic may be much bigger, but when these parameters are used in such a bad way, that doesn't really matter much anymore anyway.

[Holden]

HvK was a great conductor but the vast majority of what he recorded I can find better versions of from other conductors and as a result I now have very little of HvK in my collection. There are exceptions and IMO these are

Rimsky-Korsakov; Scheherazade (only Stokowski excels him here)

Beethoven's 5th  Symphony '77 but 63 is awesome as well.

Tchaikovksky Ballet Suites/VPO

Beethoven Overtures (Szell also does these well).

The jewel in HvK's crown, already mentioned by Iago (good call Mel), is the Verdi Requiem recorded in La Scala Milan as a film by Henri-Georges Clouzot in 1967 with a stellar cast of soloists. It's an absolutely stunning performance, far better than his other video of this work and is available on DVD. DGG should have released this as an audio CD but at 83 minutes they probably decided that splitting it onto two disc wasn't worth it - more's the pity.

Verdi

[Michel]

For me:

Sibelius 4
Bruckner 7
Parsifal
Strauss meta etc
Beet 7

[knight66]

Paul, That's the live Parsifal, I forget now, have you heard and compared the studio version with the live one?

Mike

[Michel]

Paul, That's the live Parsifal, I forget now, have you heard and compared the studio version with the live one?

Mike

Yes, live - I'ver never head the dudio version... costs too much right now.

I haven't shown you the diamond have I? 

[knight66]

Ah, do let me have news of the diamond.

Mike

[Haffner]

Beethoven 9 Symphonien (1962)
Strauss Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Haydn The Creation
Mahler 6th and 9th Symphonies