Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[krummholz]

The reason I argue this must be in canon is if conductors only play the first Adagio, it gives a very different impression of what he was actually saying.  Especially coming off the heels of No. 9, it paints a very dark and depressive ambivalence to life and that's the complete opposite of what he was saying.  In its final pages, it ends with radiance and catharsis and a very different message - that all the suffering he endured was worth it for the love he had for Alma.  That comes through and that was completed by Mahler.

Oh don't get me wrong - I'm 1000% in favor of performing the entire symphony as opposed to just the 1st mvt - and for exactly the reason you say, the 1st mvt alone gives a very slanted and inaccurate impression of what the work as a whole has to say in music. I just don't believe in calling any symphony "canon" that was not at least fully scored in preliminary form by the composer. The 10th just doesn't quite meet that standard, for me. YMMV.

[vers la flamme]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

P.S. I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.

[Spotted Horses]

My favorite Mahler Conductors are probably Haitink (the early RCO cycle) and Neumann. Maazel and Chailly are also up there. There are some non-cycle performances which I find extremely compelling, Barbirolli fifth, Karajan ninth and sixth (analog). Admittedly I've not listened through as many Mahler symphony cycles as some here.

[Mirror Image]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

I never cared much for Rattle's Mahler --- any of it. The interpretations whether in Birmingham or Berlin strike me as lacking nuance and just flat-out dull. Bernstein, Tennstedt, Haitink, Klemper and Chailly remain my favorite Mahlerians. I also like Kubelik and Neumann, but to a much lesser degree than the afore mentioned favorites.

[Lisztianwagner]

My favourite Mahler conductors are Bernstein, Solti and Karajan (although he never recorded a complete symphonies cycle, such a great pity); especially about Bernstein, I think he felt that music like no one else, his recordings are very striking and powerfully mesmerizing. Absolutely honorable mentions are also Chailly, Tennstedt and Haitink (the latter for Das Lied von der Erde).

[Sergeant Rock]

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?

As a complete cycle, Chailly. I find only his Second disappointing. Maazel in second place. Boulez third. Bernstein fourth (equally divided between his Sony and DG cycles).

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

As a complete cycle, Chailly. I find only his Second disappointing. Maazel in second place. Boulez third. Bernstein fourth (equally divided between his Sony and DG cycles).

Sarge

Which Maazel cycle, Sarge? Wiener or Philharmonia?

[Sergeant Rock]

Which Maazel cycle, Sarge? Wiener or Philharmonia?

Vienna. I keep forgetting that he recorded more than one cycle.

Sarge

[VonStupp]

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

I enjoy James Levine in Mahler quite a bit, although his cycle has its oddities - Levine never got around to the 2nd and 8th, and he uses the Chicago SO, London SO, and The Philadelphia Orchestra across his cycle. Neither of these two aspects bother me at all, though. 

VS

[staxomega]

DO make a disc copy of your Horenstein set as soon as you can or at very least rip a WAV/lossless digital file.  Thos bronzed discs WILL fail or at least start skipping etc and probably fairly soon........

Good point, I have it ripped, I just tried it again and it sailed through dbpoweramp secure mode in under a few minutes. I was under the impression that once these started to bronze by this point they would either play or not; ie any deterioration has ceased by now. I also think different factories were affected more, bronzed PDO UK is one I almost never have any success with (mostly Pearl CDs).

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler?

I saw him conduct the 8th and it is up there with the greatest concerts I've ever seen. I am not as keen on his recordings, I have the new one on the Berlin Phil's label in my to hear list.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?

Horenstein, Barbirolli, Bernstein. If forced to pick one then I guess Barbirolli as I like all the EMI and most of the BBC recordings. He was even one of the earliest that performed the 6th as Andante-Scherzo (not my preference though lol), which in my mind puts him as a bit of a visionary.

Edit I have to include Klemperer and Karajan as well. Once you look past some conductor's less than truly top tier performances, there are many, many incredible Mahler conductors.

[Mirror Image]

Vienna. I keep forgetting that he recorded more than one cycle.

Sarge

Don't worry I'm the same way with his Sibelius. For me, there's only his cycle Wiener.

[relm1]

I never cared much for Rattle's Mahler --- any of it. The interpretations whether in Birmingham or Berlin strike me as lacking nuance and just flat-out dull. Bernstein, Tennstedt, Haitink, Klemper and Chailly remain my favorite Mahlerians. I also like Kubelik and Neumann, but to a much lesser degree than the afore mentioned favorites.

Rattle is a case in point for me where his concert performances are superior to his recordings.  Same with Dudamel.  They are generally electric live and come across as safe in recording.  They're clearly perfectionists and start to lose some of that "edge of your seat" feel you get in a live performance when they go for perfection.  Sometimes the most musical performance might not be note perfect - people who love vintage recordings know this.  Some of the greatest recordings have lots of errors but are more of an electrifying "musical performance".  Generally speaking, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Bernstein, etc. are reliably fine and might have mistakes in the recordings. 

Some might find this story interesting from film music world where during a recording, a stage noise such as a mute was dropped, and the performer called out "well that's a take" while the conductor was still conducting.  In that case, the performer was fired because NO ONE calls a take but the composer/conductor because they are looking for a performance not a take.  Sometimes the one with the stage noise or missed entrance is in fact the best performance that they select.  If a conductor and producer are looking bar by bar for perfection, they can find it but they might miss out on the best overall musical experience which could include a flaw they deem acceptable.  At best, the conductors bring something unique...something special to the work.  To me, Bernstein, Walter, Tennstedt, Klemper do.  Chailly not as much.  He doesn't rise to the very greats but I'm quite picky.  I would put Chailly in the same place as Rattle...accomplished but doesn't knock off the top tier the completion is just so damn high.  For some reason, I prefer 1980's Rattle to 2010's Rattle.  Similarly, I generally prefer 1960's Bernstein to 1980's audio quality notwithstanding. 

[DavidW]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

P.S. I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.

Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

[staxomega]

Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.

[classicalgeek]

I enjoy James Levine in Mahler quite a bit, although his cycle has its oddities - Levine never got around to the 2nd and 8th, and he uses the Chicago SO, London SO, and The Philadelphia Orchestra across his cycle. Neither of these two aspects bother me at all, though. 

VS

I've enjoyed Levine quite a bit in Mahler too - my favorites are the recordings with Chicago (numbers 3, 4, and 7, I believe.)

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?

I've got to go with Bernstein; I love both of his cycles, though I'm more familiar with the DG one. I also really enjoy Gary Bertini for his overall consistency - there's not a weak one in his set. And of course there are individual performances I love: Slatkin and St. Louis in #2 on Telarc. Karajan's live #9 with Berlin. And of course Barbirolli (with the incomparable Janet Baker) in the song cycles.

I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.

I haven't listened to them all, but I imprinted on Ozawa's #1 and #4 with Boston, and I remember enjoying them quite a bit. I've heard good things about his #2 and #9 with Saito-Kinen, although I haven't heard either.

Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Just curious, David - are you referring to his Boston recording, or his Saito-Kinen one? (edit: I see hvbias has already asked!  )

I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!

[DavidW]

Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.

The former.  I just learned about the latter five minutes ago when I read the other read.  I guess I have more Mahler to listen to.

And the Haitink Christmas set is on the way.

[DavidW]

I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!

Oh Bournemouth!  I stand corrected.

[DavidW]

I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!

I wonder if part of the problem is the legendary Tony Duggan survey.  He heavily promoted Rattle's recordings as some of the top and none of them even belonged in the company for any of the symphonies.  And for a long time that was the reference online for digging into Mahler.

[classicalgeek]

Oh Bournemouth!  I stand corrected.

It appears this is the only recording he made with the Bournemouth Symphony, oddly enough! Whereas he made dozens with the City of Birmingham, which was of course "his" orchestra.

[staxomega]

Rattle is a case in point for me where his concert performances are superior to his recordings.  Same with Dudamel.  They are generally electric live and come across as safe in recording.  They're clearly perfectionists and start to lose some of that "edge of your seat" feel you get in a live performance when they go for perfection.  Sometimes the most musical performance might not be note perfect - people who love vintage recordings know this.  Some of the greatest recordings have lots of errors but are more of an electrifying "musical performance".  Generally speaking, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Bernstein, etc. are reliably fine and might have mistakes in the recordings. 

Some might find this story interesting from film music world where during a recording, a stage noise such as a mute was dropped, and the performer called out "well that's a take" while the conductor was still conducting.  In that case, the performer was fired because NO ONE calls a take but the composer/conductor because they are looking for a performance not a take.  Sometimes the one with the stage noise or missed entrance is in fact the best performance that they select.  If a conductor and producer are looking bar by bar for perfection, they can find it but they might miss out on the best overall musical experience which could include a flaw they deem acceptable.  At best, the conductors bring something unique...something special to the work.  To me, Bernstein, Walter, Tennstedt, Klemper do.  Chailly not as much.  He doesn't rise to the very greats but I'm quite picky.  I would put Chailly in the same place as Rattle...accomplished but doesn't knock off the top tier the completion is just so damn high.  For some reason, I prefer 1980's Rattle to 2010's Rattle.  Similarly, I generally prefer 1960's Bernstein to 1980's audio quality notwithstanding.

Very good post and much to agree with! Several of the miscreants I named in my prior post would fit in with what you described as performances I really love

I have been meaning to revisit Chailly's cycle for some time because I have read nothing but praise for it (see every post on this page as well), I thought to just keep my mouth shut on it since my initial opinion on it must have been very wrong. Boulez's Mahler is another that comes to mind.

"Doesn't rise to the very greats" - that is pretty much what I am looking for these days, and it's not unattainable given the huge number of recordings available to us often in sound just as good as Chailly's cycle (Iván Fischer, Bychkov in 3, Tilson Thomas in the earlier recording of the seventh, Neumann's Exton cycle, Thierry Fischer in 8, etc)

I think Rattle is an easy punching bag because he comes off as smug, namely that back handed compliment to Karajan is one that stands out. Not that I'm saying his Mahler recordings are anything special, but it's easy to be extra hard on him for this.