Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Mahlerian]

Actually, I suspect the vast majority do not "understand" Mahler in the sense that Barbirolli had in mind when he mentioned it took him years to understand one of the symphonies  (not "read it", he went on, but internalising its meaning and figuring a way to express it).

Tennstedt, who came to Mahler as an adult, said that younger people cannot fully understand Mahler's works, except for the First, and Schoenberg likewise only came to understand Mahler after first rejecting his music.

There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Tennstedt, who came to Mahler as an adult, said that younger people cannot fully understand Mahler's works, except for the First, and Schoenberg likewise only came to understand Mahler after first rejecting his music.

There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.

Karajan and Reiner are debatable, but Gergiev has no business touching Mahler's music with a pair of tongs.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Karajan and Reiner are debatable, but Gergiev has no business touching Mahler's music with a pair of tongs.

Karajan came late to Mahler, but he arrived; his 6th and 9th(s) certainly show plenty of willingness and ability. And they're not as emoting and kitschy as Bernstein, at least. (Although cynics will point out that the BPh would not have played Mahler -- esp. the 9th -- so well, had it not for Barbirolli and Bernstein getting the orchestra used to it.

Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?

Gergiev touches everything, granted, whether it's 'his' territory or not; his Mahler, if nothing else, improved steadily... and features some fine, if not exactly riveting, performances. To suggest he had no business conducting it is hyperbole rather than a particularly meaningful statement. LSO 8th and 5th are very good (the first 5th was so bad it was not used for the cycle, although it was recorded); his Munich 2nd struck me as quite fine when I listened to it recently and certainly was fine (if hardly great) in concert.

[Mirror Image]

I think it's important for any conductor, and listener, to approach Mahler in their own way. I think conductors should be aware of what Mahler wanted notationally-speaking, but we've heard this music butchered and we've heard it hurled up on it's shoulders and hoisted into a glorious victory march. I don't think Salonen dislikes Mahler's music, but rather offered some realistic criticism and, of course, his own opinion, which we're all entitled to. Some of these UE Mahler interviews were actually kind of painful to watch like Rattle's for example.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7Bsz-2_47cY

[Mirror Image]

I like his M3 very much. One of my favorites.

I'll have to check it out, Jay. I believe Salonen has recorded (besides the 3rd) the 4th, 6th, and 9th.

[Mahlerian]

Karajan came late to Mahler, but he arrived; his 6th and 9th(s) certainly show plenty of willingness and ability.

I find his Sixth absolutely horrifying.  It is an interpretation that works against the score and its meaning at every juncture.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?

Gergiev touches everything, granted, whether it's 'his' territory or not; his Mahler, if nothing else, improved steadily... and features some fine, if not exactly riveting, performances. To suggest he had no business conducting it is hyperbole rather than a particularly meaningful statement. LSO 8th and 5th are very good (the first 5th was so bad it was not used for the cycle, although it was recorded); his Munich 2nd struck me as quite fine when I listened to it recently and certainly was fine (if hardly great) in concert.

Don't forget Reiner's Das Lied.

Gergiev just has very to say about Mahler's music. He is more or less or a "big tune" conductor but Mahler is anything BUT a big tune composer. Mahler's music the different lines often run up against one other in stark juxtaposition, and there is where Gergiev misses most of the points. I THINK #2 is a good performance, 3 is ok but the finale sucks as the ending is completely botched. Haven't heard 6 as Mahlerian said.

[Mirror Image]

Don't forget Reiner's Das Lied.

Gergiev just has very to say about Mahler's music. He is more or less or a "big tune" conductor but Mahler is anything BUT a big tune composer. Mahler's music the different lines often run up against one other in start juxtaposition, and there is where Gergiev misses most of the points. I THINK #2 is a good performance, 3 is ok but the finale sucks as the ending is completely botched. Haven't heard 6 as Mahlerian said.

I also don't think Gergiev is too good of a Mahlerian. As you said, Mahler's music isn't 'big tune' music. It's about taking the listener on an emotional and spiritual journey. There needs to be on ongoing narrative expressed and Gergiev's interpretation just seems to be going from one musical episode to another without any kind of understanding for how the music got there.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I also don't think Gergiev is too good of a Mahlerian. As you said, Mahler's music isn't 'big tune' music. It's about taking the listener on an emotional and spiritual journey. There needs to be on ongoing narrative expressed and Gergiev's interpretation just seems to be going from one musical episode to another without any kind of understanding for how the music got there.

Not to bash Gergiev but he conducts everything like its Tchaikovsky whether it is Bruckner, mahler or Beethoven...

[Mirror Image]

Not to bash Gergiev but he conducts everything like its Tchaikovsky whether it is Bruckner, mahler or Beethoven...

I like Gergiev's Shostakovich and Prokofiev, but have found his approach to the Germanic repertoire to be disappointing.

[Jay F]

I sold all my Gergiev. FOP.

[Heck148]

There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.

Reiner didn't record alot of Mahler - but the ones he did - #4, and DLvdE are really outstanding...both at the top of the list...

[Heck148]

Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?

Das Lied von der Erde - with Forrester/Lewis....outstanding performance = along with Walter/NYPO, my favorite.

[Mahlerian]

Reiner didn't record alot of Mahler - but the ones he did - #4, and DLvdE are really outstanding...both at the top of the list...

The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.

[Mirror Image]

The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.

Glad I never bothered with that recording!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Regarding Gergiev. In this video there are 9 horns where the score calls for 8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs

You also see 9 horns here. I am not an expert but is the practice common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY

The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.

Really? I agree it is certainly different as Reiner emphasizes voices that you don't hear in other recordings. But the playing (especially horns) is stunning. It is very lean and has a crystalline quality as if you can see through the music. You won't hear the walls of strings sounds. It is worlds away from the likes of Klemperer but I find equally valid.
But just as there are Horenstein cultists out there count me as a Reiner cultist so my views are naturally biased

[relm1]

Regarding Gergiev. In this video there are 9 horns where the score calls for 8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs

You also see 9 horns here. I am not an expert but is the practice common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY

Really? I agree it is certainly different as Reiner emphasizes voices that you don't hear in other recordings. But the playing (especially horns) is stunning. It is very lean and has a crystalline quality as if you can see through the music. You won't hear the walls of strings sounds. It is worlds away from the likes of Klemperer but I find equally valid.
But just as there are Horenstein cultists out there count me as a Reiner cultist so my views are naturally biased

It is just a utility horn.  Basically like an assistant 1st horn due to the physical strain of playing horn.   It's very common in modern large venues playing late romantic or big pieces to have a utility horn to allow the principal a rest from tight embouchure.  Some of it is also psychological.  Like knowing if I start cramping up in my lips, I have an extra set of lips sitting next to me.

[Madiel]

Well, you learn something new every day. Today it's about utility horns.

[relm1]

Well, you learn something new every day. Today it's about utility horns.

Yeah, you got to understand the physical strain it takes to play modern symphonic works. When you practice Mahler or Shostakovitch, there is a tremendous physical strain on your body.  Nearly all pro players have physical injuries from practicing and rehearsing these works.  That is why an instrument such as the horn which has an added stress on the embrasure needs some help.  Other brass players employ an assistant as well but the horn has a greater strain than most because they play more frequently than trumpets and trombones.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Yeah, you got to understand the physical strain it takes to play modern symphonic works. When you practice Mahler or Shostakovitch, there is a tremendous physical strain on your body.  Nearly all pro players have physical injuries from practicing and rehearsing these works.  That is why an instrument such as the horn which has an added stress on the embrasure needs some help.  Other brass players employ an assistant as well but the horn has a greater strain than most because they play more frequently than trumpets and trombones.

So you think it is more the norm than the exception that utility horns are used? That's an extra player an orchestra has to pay for.