Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[mc ukrneal]

Yes, he said that oars on the lake by his summer home provided the rhythmic impulse for the opening.

Incidentally, I fully agree with Jessop here; Boulez's first movement may seem really slow at first, and for me there's always a bit of mental adjustment involved in listening to its opening moments, but the momentum he builds over the course of the whole structure is magnificent, and when he reaches the B major section at the climax of the development, it's breathtaking because he has worked to achieve that goal for the last 15 minutes or so.

No. That's the problem. You wait and wait for some sort of release to the tension and it NEVER comes. It's the ultimate tease. Even with versions I like less, I still get the tingle (or goosebumps). But with this one, you don't get it.

And that ignores that it plods along, often a pretty plod mind you, but a plod never the less. By the time the flutes come in for the opening, you feel like you are walking in quicksand (with every step straining to hold your boot), not rowing a boat on the lake.

[Mahlerian]

No. That's the problem. You wait and wait for some sort of release to the tension and it NEVER comes. It's the ultimate tease. Even with versions I like less, I still get the tingle (or goosebumps). But with this one, you don't get it.

And that ignores that it plods along, often a pretty plod mind you, but a plod never the less. By the time the flutes come in for the opening, you feel like you are walking in quicksand (with every step straining to hold your boot), not rowing a boat on the lake.

Mahler wrote symphonies, not tone poems.  The source of the inspiration is ultimately irrelevant, and the musical effect paramount.  I am sorry that you do not enjoy Boulez's recording of the work, but I certainly do feel that frisson of excitement when the height of the development is reached, so while you may speak for yourself and for others as well, you do not speak for me or my own experience.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I think Boulez really brings out the structure of the work, makes the excitement come not too often, but gives the music the music the momentum to arrive there when it does come. I can hear Boulez doing this subtly on a smaller scale (like my earlier example) and more obviously on a larger scale at the height of the development and nearing the return of the Allegro con Fuoco at the end. No conductor builds the music up over such a long period of time like Boulez can here, and, as I said previously, he uses tempo, orchestral balance and phrasing of each line (contrapuntal or not) to get there. He makes a temporally distant climax/resolution all the more satisfying and exciting to me, and along the way he brings out the smaller structures subtly but also with a lot more consideration than I can hear in other interpretations.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

A small part of what you describe may be attributed to the very involving nature of DG's "4D" recording style of the mid-'90s - which seems to divide opinion though personally I love it.

I never listen to the outer movements of the 7th but do very much enjoy the middle three, and in these I find Boulez a bit quick for my taste - though the clarity of the recording is just wonderful.  Gielen for example takes the two Nachtmusiken a bit slower, or if I'm feeling hardcore, there is always Klemperer ...

Ahaha, yes the recording style is rather different to the more unified sound of many earlier recordings, but it doesn't badly affect Boulez's interpretation thankfully. The record engineering is fantastic and also gives some of the more densely contrapuntal passages some clarity to really hear what Boulez can do.

Personally I enjoy the faster Nachtmusik movements, but Gielen's recording is also great. I haven't yet been able to really get into Klemperer's, but I might reconsider my opinion of it later to see if I can listen to it without my personal prejudices getting in the way.

[Cato]

I think Boulez really brings out the structure of the work, makes the excitement come not too often, but gives the music the music the momentum to arrive there when it does come. I can hear Boulez doing this subtly on a smaller scale (like my earlier example) and more obviously on a larger scale at the height of the development and nearing the return of the Allegro con Fuoco at the end. No conductor builds the music up over such a long period of time like Boulez can here, and, as I said previously, he uses tempo, orchestral balance and phrasing of each line (contrapuntal or not) to get there. He makes a temporally distant climax/resolution all the more satisfying and exciting to me, and along the way he brings out the smaller structures subtly but also with a lot more consideration than I can hear in other interpretations.

Amen!   0:)

Many thanks to all for the replies above!

The 4D CD's from DGG sound really great on my BOSE SurroundSound system, now approaching 15 years of age.  Two of the best are Boulez performances, but this time of the complete Firebird ballet of Stravinsky (Second-best) and (First Place) Mahler's First Symphony!

[Crudblud]

I like Boulez in the 7th, but my personal choice is Gielen. Right from the start, the way he phrases those tremolos really gets me going.

One of my favourites apart from that is the wonderfully bizarre Scherchen recording from 1965 with the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra is not great, and the players make a lot of mistakes, but Scherchen's approach has a "just works" kind of thing going on no matter how crazy it might seem at first. The return of the first movement theme in the finale hits home in a way I've never heard in any other recording.

Scherchen's Mahler track record is quite spotty. Aside from his eccentric choices in interpretation he was often saddled with second (sometimes third, fourth, or fifth) rate orchestras, or inadequate forces, or short rehearsal times, and some of his recordings, like the infamous 5th with the RAI Milan orchestra, have huge chunks cut out of the score (the Scherzo lasts just five minutes!), but the Toronto 7th and the excellent 1958 2nd are both well worth hearing. There's also a disc with the 1st and 10th (Adagio) on Westminster (some imprint of DGG) that I like very much.

[Jo498]

There are also uncut Studio 5th and 7th with Scherchen on Westminster from the mid-1950s.

[André]

There are also uncut Studio 5th and 7th with Scherchen on Westminster from the mid-1950s.

Indeed, and for my money they beat 90% of the versions that followed. Not bad for 60 year old recordings! 

[Draško]

Another vote for Scherchen Mahler. I love most of it (1, 2, 5, 7 especially), shabby but atmospheric. I'd never recommend it to anyone though.

And another vote to Gielen's Baden-Baden 7th. Fantastic recording, and easy to recommend.

[Traverso]

There is so much to take in here, there has been a lot of activity since I last visited - it is probably best to start with the 8th Symphony. I find this symphony problematic and have done ever since my first encounter with it - Bernstein/LSO for CBS. Quite often I don't get to the end though I did in the most recent version I acquired (as part of a large Harmonia Mundi box of assorted choral works), Ngano and his Berlin forces. In so far as I have a favourite, it is Chailly/Concergebouw. Solti is too fenzied and Haitink just plain dull. I can't comment on Boulez as I don't have his recording.

My thoughts on Boulez and Mahler are that he is fine in the later symphonies but doesn't inhabit the 'Wunderhorn' world of the earlier works very comfortably; I didn't enjoy his No 3 though I see other posters did. The first Boulez Mahler I ever heard was his recording of Waldmarchen coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. The Adagio is a poor performance made worse by using a corrupt edition of the score. Waldmarchen was interesting as it was the first ever recording but I find it goes against the Boulez stereotype by being too emotional, often to the point of being overwrought.

I am obviously not 'most' people. I was introduced to Mahler by a fellow student and his Haitink/Concertgebouw records of Symphonies 1 - 4. This was followed by Solti (No 1) and Kubelik (No 9) borrowed from a record library. The first Mahler I bought was Das Lied von der Erde (Klemperer) and Des Knaben Wunderhorn (Szell). The first numbered symphony was No 5 (Barbirolli/NPO), followed by No 6 (Kubelik/BRSO) - Bernstein (Nos 7,8 & 9) came later as did the Haitink set. Supplemented by Horenstein's No 3 (my first duplication!) these recording formed my impressions of Mahler for many years. The lunacy of multiple CD versions was still in the future.

I hope that "the lunacy "brought you some happiness.

[Biffo]

I hope that "the lunacy "brought you some happiness.

A great deal of happiness and it continues. Every time I make a vow not to buy any more Mahler something interesting comes along (a CD or a book) and I succumb.

[Jo498]

The 2nd with Scherchen is probably the easiest to recommend. It has the best sound, even stereo and while a few tempi are very slow (the poor singer in "Urlicht" needs a lot of breath...) it is not that excentric. The sound in 1,5,7 ist not too bad, fairly average 1950s mono although in the 1st the triangle or some similar instruments is too prominent. Of these I found the 5th comparably uninteresting. Overall, with so much Mahler in very good sound around, they are probably more for listeners with special interest in the conductor or in Mahler performances before the composer became widely popular through the stereo recordings of the 1960s by Bernstein and other usual suspects.
I have not heard any of the wild live recordings, though.

[André]

A distant link to Mahler...



Karl Rankl is not well known nowadays, but his place in the history of musical performances is very interesting. A student of
Schönberg and, later, of Webern, he was a member of the Society for Private Performances headed by his teacher. Both as a player and arranger, he participated in many performances by the group and, along with others (it was a kind of pioneering composition atelier) he arranged Mahler's Wunderhorn lieder as well as Bruckner's 7th symphony (recorded by the Linos Ensemble).

He also participated in premieres of Schönberg's Die Glückliche Hand and Von Heute auf Morgen and, as conductor, premiered Stauss' Die Frau Ohne Schatten in Austria, as well as Ernst Krenek's Karl V. He left Austria to take refuge in the UK. After the War he was named MD of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. When he left in 1951 he became a peripatetician conductor. One of his return performances in Vienna was recorded: this 1954 performance of Mahler's 4th symphony, the tapes of which lay dormant in the ORF archives for the next 50 years.

This performance was recorded in the Grosser Saal, in Vienna's Musikverein. The sound (mono) is therefore very good:  wide, open, natural, undistorted. As the performance unfolded I had the impression the score was being written right there before my eyes/ears. I don't think I've heard a more naturally expressive performance of the 4th as this. Every tempo is completely natural, with flexible phrasing yet convincing logic and direction. Instrumental strands and balances are clearly audible, never overwrought or unnaturally manipulated.

There's a heart-stopping pause when the Gates of Heaven open in the slow movement and yet, the climax itself is unforced, almost a glimpse rather than a point of arrival (I was reminded of The Dream of Gerontius when God flashes before Gerontius' eyes). The movement's conclusion is a moment of musical levitation. Unforgettable. The playful finale for once makes sense: the whole symphony is a child's view of the world in music, not just its last, fairy-tale appendix. Sena Jurinac is the excellent soloist. More an adolescent Hansel than a child Gretel, maybe, very different from Teresa Stich-Randall under van Otterloo. This is a clear-eyed, wondrously affectionate yet natural account of the 4th.

[Cato]

A distant link to Mahler...



Karl Rankl is not well known nowadays, but his place in the history of musical performances is very interesting. A student of


This performance was recorded in the Grosser Saal, in Vienna's Musikverein. The sound (mono) is therefore very good:  wide, open, natural, undistorted. As the performance unfolded I had the impression the score was being written right there before my eyes/ears. I don't think I've heard a more naturally expressive performance of the 4th as this. Every tempo is completely natural, with flexible phrasing yet convincing logic and direction. Instrumental strands and balances are clearly audible, never overwrought or unnaturally manipulated.

There's a heart-stopping pause when the Gates of Heaven open in the slow movement and yet, the climax itself is unforced, almost a glimpse rather than a point of arrival (I was reminded of The Dream of Gerontius when God flashes before Gerontius' eyes). The movement's conclusion is a moment of musical levitation. Unforgettable. The playful finale for once makes sense: the whole symphony is a child's view of the world in music, not just its last, fairy-tale appendix. Sena Jurinac is the excellent soloist. More an adolescent Hansel than a child Gretel, maybe, very different from Teresa Stich-Randall under van Otterloo. This is a clear-eyed, wondrously affectionate yet natural account of the 4th.

Many thanks for the tip!  Here is the performance - broken up by movements - on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nZgE2zVYWkU

[bhodges]

This afternoon I watched the Mahler 8, broadcast live from Rotterdam's De Doelen, with Yannick Nézet-Séguin, the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra, an excellent slate of soloists, and four choirs -- all on medici.tv. The pacing was luxurious and leisurely, but didn't feel slow. Nézet-Séguin showed admirable patience, and the orchestra was in really fine form. Of particular note: the small moments, like the many solos for the concertmaster, and the beautiful wind playing.

Most recently I watched Chailly's Lucerne performance on DVD. It's marvelous -- shows many of the same chamber music qualities of his studio recording with the Concertgebouw years ago -- but the soloists seem to be pushing, over-singing a bit, and nothing like that happened this afternoon.

As usual, the broadcast will be available to watch (likely at no charge) for awhile afterward. Those who admire the piece should definitely check it out.

--Bruce

[Baron Scarpia]

I had my ups and downs listening to Mahler 5 with Boulez

[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]

The first part (consisting of two movements) was striking, and I heard things, particularly, in the crazy episode towards the end of the funeral march, that I had not taken notice of before. Beautifully managed. I always feel that the second part (third movement) goes on too long in this piece, and Boulez did not resolve this for me. The Third part started off well, the Adagietto comes off (how can you mess it up, oh Abbado did) and the final movement begins well, the fugal writing having satisfying transparency of texture. But the big ending where the choral style theme from the second movement returns lacked grandeur. Too fast, too much clarity, it came off as almost prosaic. If I may use the K. work, Karajan slowed down and let the music have more time to unfold, and produced an ensemble from the Berlin Philharmonic that was looser, as though the different sections were at odds, giving the close a greater atmosphere of cataclysm. Barbirolli also slowed down a lot more and produced a more dramatic result.

Boulez was worth listening to, but far from my favorite version. Maybe I'll listen to Haitink again.

(Cross posted from the "what are you listening to" thread.)

[motoboy]

Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

[Mahlerian]

Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

Go for the real original version, with the unrevised parts 2 and 3 as well as part 1:
[asin]B0012K53TU[/asin]

Also available on a Nagano disc that I haven't heard.

[Biffo]

Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

This is problematic,  there is only one (as far as I am aware) authentic recording of the original 3 part DKL - Nagano with the Halle Orchestra, Choir & soloists and it is hard to find. All others are the two part, much revised version(s) (originally parts 2 & 3) that Mahler left with Waldmarchen bolted on.  The original version was composed in 1878-80 and never performed in Mahler's lifetime. Years later in Hamburg he revised the work dropping Waldmarchen and eventually publishing it in 1898/99 - this is the version most often performed. He revised it again and had it published in 1906 and made further changes after that.

Waldmarchen resurfaced in the 1970s and was performed and recorded by Pierre Boulez; it was issued coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. He had already recorded the two part work and CBS later coupled all three parts and issued them as 'Das Klagende Lied'. Over the years various companies have followed suit, not always making it clear that it is a hybrid work and not one that Mahler ever performed. Mahler's last word was the two-part version.

If you are just interested in hearing Waldmarchen you could go for one of these hybrids -  I have Rattle/CBSO and Chailly/Deutsches Symphonie Orchester Berlin. Both fine performances though Rattle has the advantage of being on a single disc.

[Biffo]

Go for the real original version, with the unrevised parts 2 and 3 as well as part 1:
[asin]B0012K53TU[/asin]

Also available on a Nagano disc that I haven't heard.

Thanks Mahlerian, I didn't know this version existed - I will have to check it out.