Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Biffo]

I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.

That is the publisher's title not Mahler's. The baritone option doesn't appear anywhere in the manuscripts of either the orchestral or piano versions. Mahler muddied the waters by writing on the copyist's score next to the second movement 'if needs be, can also be sung by a baritone'. It is debatable that this remark applies to movements 4 & 6.

At the first performance in Munich Bruno Walter used a tenor and alto but for the second performance in Vienna he used a tenor and baritone; afterwards he said 'Never again'. Later he said he thought that had Mahler lived he would have discarded the baritone option.

I vastly prefer an alto. If you have to have a baritone go for Thomas Hampson with Rattle. His recording with Tilson-Thomas is ravishingly beautiful with superb playing from the SFSO but the performance as a whole is bland. I can't listen to Bernstein/Fischer-Dieskau, I find it gruesome. If you want DF-D go for his recording with Kletzki; for Bernstein try his later version with Ludwig and Kollo (though I am not a Kollo fan).

[Jo498]

That's interesting, Biffo. You also prefer an an alto but you recommend for the baritone the two recordings I have heard and disliked sufficiently so that I decided not to bother with baritones in this music.
I got rid of the Rattle/Hampson years ago and the Kletzki/Fi-Di is on my "not sure I'll keep shelf"...

[ritter]

I got the FiDi with Kletzki as a bonus with the conductor's Fourth Symphony (which was what I was really looking for, as it was the first Mahler recording I ever listened to on LP in my childhood—my dad had it on LP). I was won over by FiDi in this, and think he is just wonderful in "Der Abschied" (which, to be honest, is the only movement of DLvdE I really enjoy—the rest of the work bores me to tears  ). I still see Ludwig / Klemperer as the nec plus ultra, but can say that FiDi convinced me of the relative merits of the baritone version (I haven't listened to the FiDi / Bernstein, as I really don't like that conductor in Mahler).

[Biffo]

I got the FiDi with Kletzki as a bonus with the conductor's Fourth Symphony (which was what I was really looking for, as it was the first Mahler recording I ever listened to on LP in my childhood—my dad had it on LP). I was won over by FiDi in this, and think he is just wonderful in "Der Abschied" (which, to be honest, is the only movement of DLvdE I really enjoy—the rest of the work bores me to tears  ). I still see Ludwig / Klemperer as the nec plus ultra, but can say that FiDi convinced me of the relative merits of the baritone version (I haven't listened to the FiDi / Bernstein, as I really don't like that conductor in Mahler).

Fischer-Dieskau was convinced that Mahler wrote Der Abschied with a baritone in mind though the evidence (probably not available to DF-D at the time) suggests otherwise.

As I said I vastly prefer an alto though I have four (at least) baritone versions I very rarely listen to them.

The Kletzki recording seems to have been released in various formats. I have it as a single disc. I acquired the 4th Symphony in a two-disc set coupled with Sibelius 2, a work I heard Kletzki conduct with the CBSO many years ago.

[Cato]

Yesterday I listened to the Ninth Symphony performed by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leopold Ludwig in the 1959 recording now available on YouTube.  It is a remastering which has eliminated the somewhat high hiss on the original vinyl record.

I bought that record over 50 years ago, and probably have not heard it since the late 1970's.  So revisiting it evoked various memories and associations, especially when the YouTube screen showed the cover of the original album box, and the last movement was playing.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Fischer-Dieskau was convinced that Mahler wrote Der Abschied with a baritone in mind though the evidence (probably not available to DF-D at the time) suggests otherwise.

As I said I vastly prefer an alto though I have four (at least) baritone versions I very rarely listen to them.

The Kletzki recording seems to have been released in various formats. I have it as a single disc. I acquired the 4th Symphony in a two-disc set coupled with Sibelius 2, a work I heard Kletzki conduct with the CBSO many years ago.

I am sorry I have trouble listening to this work without the alto. A quick glance at Wikipedia shows 49 recordings with tenor/alto and only 10 with baritone, with DFD singing in 3 of them if you can believe it (and Thomas Hampson in 2 of them). So between DFD and Hampson they occupy half of the tenor/baritone recordings which is pretty crazy if you ask me.

The list of mezzo/altos in these recordings do read like the hall of fame of soloists. Some others I enjoyed over the years are:

Nan Merriman/Ernst Haefliger (Van Beinem or Jochum): pretty cool you get the same two soloists with 2 very different conductors
Michelle DeYoung/Jon Villars (Oue): Probably the version to go to if I have to choose a version recorded in the last 10-15 yrs or so. If you enjoy hearing the orchestra this is your version. The Minnesota Orch. sounds stunning in this recording, especially in the interlude in the final song. Of course the soloists are no slouch either.

[Jo498]

It's not crazy, rather it seems an indication that two prominent baritones are very fond of the piece and most of the rest of the world (like you and me) clearly prefers the alto version.

[JBS]

It's not crazy, rather it seems an indication that two prominent baritones are very fond of the piece and most of the rest of the world (like you and me) clearly prefers the alto version.

Three, actually:  Two of the other recordings are by Gerharer.

But perhaps the "preference" is simply a self-reinforcing loop.  If a conductor/label think most people prefer the alto version,  they'll tend to look for an alto on the assumption that is more saleable. 

Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.

[Jo498]

Sure, but that the preference is self-reinforcing does not at all mean that it was not justified in the first place (before the re-inforcing). The most famous baritone (at least as a singer of lieder) of the last 60 years made two recordings for major labels, the older of which was recorded almost 60 years ago when probably not more than a handful of the recordings with alto were around. So there was plenty of time for the preferences to change.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.

[Sergeant Rock]

Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.

The horror!...the horror!

Sarge

[Madiel]

The recording catalogue is absolutely full of examples of musicians deciding that actually they'd rather like to perform something despite not being in line with the composer's stated preferences as to use of instrument. Including cases where the composer agreed to a 2nd option in an effort to improve the chances of performance.

I don't see why Mahler singers would be immune to this effect.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

The recording catalogue is absolutely full of examples of musicians deciding that actually they'd rather like to perform something despite not being in line with the composer's stated preferences as to use of instrument. Including cases where the composer agreed to a 2nd option in an effort to improve the chances of performance.

I don't see why Mahler singers would be immune to this effect.

There is no arguing with that. I certainly don't hesitate to listen to a piece performed in a manner which is not quite what the composer expected or considered ideal if I find the result musically successful. Mahler expressed preference for an alto but authorized a Bass/Baritone as an acceptable substitute.

My preference is not really tied to Mahler's intention, so much as to the fact that I don't find bass/baritone vocals attractive and much prefer the sound of an alto. In fact, I prefer Schubert's Wintrese sung by an alto, even though that is certainly not what Schubert intended.

[Cato]

Parallel with this mini-topic is the use of boy singers for the dead brother in Das Klagende Lied.  I have read that Mahler dropped the idea in his later revision of the work.

What say ye to that idea?  I am thinking of Chailly's DECCA CD from 30 years ago with a boy singer.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

...In fact, I prefer Schubert's Wintrese sung by an alto, even though that is certainly not what Schubert intended.

Oh boy, you do have eclectic taste. 

[JBS]

Parallel with this mini-topic is the use of boy singers for the dead brother in Das Klagende Lied.  I have read that Mahler dropped the idea in his later revision of the work.

What say ye to that idea?  I am thinking of Chailly's DECCA CD from 30 years ago with a boy singer.

Well, given that several recordings use the first part of the original in conjunction with the two parts of the revised version, I think it fair to say that Mahler's intentions with dKL are disregarded routinely.

When I suggested using a male alto, I had in mind Bernstein's use of a boy soprano in the Fourth Symphony. Most people think it didn't work, although I think it does work better than most people give it credit for.

I seem to remember a countertenor who recorded several Mahler songs, including the Wunderhorn song included in the Second Symphony, bit don't remember his name. (So did Hampson in his recording with MTT.)

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Oh boy, you do have eclectic taste. 

Faesbaender's recording is very well regarded, no?

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Well, given that several recordings use the first part of the original in conjunction with the two parts of the revised version, I think it fair to say that Mahler's intentions with dKL are disregarded routinely.

When I suggested using a male alto, I had in mind Bernstein's use of a boy soprano in the Fourth Symphony. Most people think it didn't work, although I think it does work better than most people give it credit for.

The character depicted in the Mahler 4 finale is a child, or at least child like. You can't say the same about the alto voice in DLVDE.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Faesbaender's recording is very well regarded, no?

Sure; I'd say that for a long time it was the only one that got any mainstream traction. Heck, I even like Christine Schaefer's Winterreise. Not when it first came out, incidentally, but once I'd heard her in concert I 'got' it, what she was trying to do.

[ritter]

Sure; I'd say that for a long time it was the only one that got any mainstream traction. Heck, I even like Christine Schaefer's Winterreise. Not when it first came out, incidentally, but once I'd heard her in concert I 'got' it, what she was trying to do.

I find Frau Schäfer's Winterreise superb....