Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Roasted Swan]

Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.



Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement 

Vers La Flamme - prompted by your positive comments regarding this Boulez performance I listened to it again yesterday.  My memory from previous encounters had been feeling singularly underengaged.  And I have to say I felt exactly the same again!  Not that I'm a particular fan of the Bernstein approach of hyper-emotionalism and wringing sentiment from every phrase but I found this Boulez to be too objective.  To the point where I wondered if he actually likes (or identifies with) the piece at all.  The playing is excellent and the engineering good so lots of interesting detail and orchestral textures to enjoy but as a musical "journey" about as flat and unvaried as it could be.  No sense of 'release' or 'arrival' at all - with big moments seemingly to be willfully pushed through.  OK - there might be a performing tradition to broaden out here or do an unwritten rallentando there - but sometimes these unwritten traditions are NOT just lazy accretions to the pure urtext score - they are added because they WORK!

Which did lead me onto the following thought - sometimes (purely subjectively of course) you get a real sense of pleasure in a performance from players/conductors etc.  It struck me that I'm not sure I've ever thought Boulez "loved" playing a piece.  Perhaps it tweaked his intellect or he admired the construction/technique of a work - but good old fashioned emotional love I'm not sure.

I've got this whole Boulez/Mahler cycle so perhaps on reflection that was not a smart buy by me!

[Biffo]

I have most of Boulez' Mahler Cycle and have mixed feelings about them. I don't think he inhabits the world of the Wunderhorn symphonies at all comfortably. His recording of No 3 got some excellent reviews but leaves me cold.  I don't recall finding No 5 quite as bad as you did so I will have to add it to the lsist of discs to be revisited.

[Roasted Swan]

I have most of Boulez' Mahler Cycle and have mixed feelings about them. I don't think he inhabits the world of the Wunderhorn symphonies at all comfortably. His recording of No 3 got some excellent reviews but leaves me cold.  I don't recall finding No 5 quite as bad as you did so I will have to add it to the lsist of discs to be revisited.

The thing is I wouldn't say it is "bad" - with that orchestra and a not-wilful interpretation how could it be.  But it simply seems to try to avoid ANY kind of sentiment or emotion that surely has to be part of the Mahlerian experience.......

[vers la flamme]

@Roasted Swan. I've heard people say that, about Boulez's Mahler lacking emotion. Frankly, I don't buy it. I found plenty of emotionality in Boulez's interpretation, and moreover it seemed obvious to me that he loved the work and that he was working within a great tradition. My one complaint is that the Adagietto was a bit on the dry side, but I otherwise found it a moving experience through and through. It's all there in the score. As you say, any non-willful interpretation of this great piece is bound to be good at least. But in my perspective I heard no such attempt to suppress or avoid sentiment or emotion.

Edit: Full disclosure, my favorite Mahler conductor is Bernstein. Make of that what you will.

In any case, I'm honored that my comments inspired you to re-evaluate a performance that you didn't like in the past, even if in the end you did come to the same conclusion. 

Just to hazard a guess here, perhaps you are not such a fan of Boulez's own music, either? People say that it is cold and objective, but I find it warm, rich, sensuous and full of life. To my point of view this is an unfounded criticism.

By the way, if you need someone to take that Boulez/Mahler set off your hands for cheap.... 

[Roasted Swan]

@Roasted Swan. I've heard people say that, about Boulez's Mahler lacking emotion. Frankly, I don't buy it. I found plenty of emotionality in Boulez's interpretation, and moreover it seemed obvious to me that he loved the work and that he was working within a great tradition. My one complaint is that the Adagietto was a bit on the dry side, but I otherwise found it a moving experience through and through. It's all there in the score. As you say, any non-willful interpretation of this great piece is bound to be good at least. But in my perspective I heard no such attempt to suppress or avoid sentiment or emotion.

Edit: Full disclosure, my favorite Mahler conductor is Bernstein. Make of that what you will.

In any case, I'm honored that my comments inspired you to re-evaluate a performance that you didn't like in the past, even if in the end you did come to the same conclusion. 

Just to hazard a guess here, perhaps you are not such a fan of Boulez's own music, either? People say that it is cold and objective, but I find it warm, rich, sensuous and full of life. To my point of view this is an unfounded criticism.

By the way, if you need someone to take that Boulez/Mahler set off your hands for cheap.... 

I used to be involved in performing groups in London that were contemporary music specialists.  Curiously I don't remember ever doing a piece by Boulez - I simply don't know his music so cannot comment.  I had colleagues who were in the BBC SO at the time of his holding the principal conductorship and they spoke highly of him on both a musical and personal level.  I am in awe of his technical ability but I guess I respond more to a generally "heart" rather than "head" approach.

I (almost) never off-load recordings I don't respond to because a) I might change my mind and b) I find it as instructive to listen to versions of pieces I don't like as I do of version I enjoy!  When I do get rid of things it is because I think the performance in question is simply poor - musically and technically OR the price I can sell the item for is too tempting!

[vers la flamme]

Aw, too bad. I do really want to hear the full Boulez/Mahler cycle at some point in life, but I can't justify to myself paying full price right now. 

Re:Boulez's compositions, I was just curious, because I often see the same criticism leveled against both his conducting and his music, often by the same people. I don't agree that it applies to either!

[vers la flamme]

I just listened to Mahler's 6th again, the Leonard Bernstein/NYPO recording from the '60s.



... and somehow, I enjoyed it more than ever. I found it absolutely phenomenal, moving, and, in turns, shocking and totally life-affirming. It is definitely one of the darkest symphonies ever written by anyone. I can see why the young Alban Berg and Anton Webern were so enamored with it. Berg once wrote to Webern thus:

"Es gibt doch nur eine VI. trotz der Pastorale." (There is only one Sixth, despite the Pastoral.)

A great work. I would probably now agree that it's one of his best. I'm sure I will be playing it back in my head all day.

After all, I still need to find a recording that makes a good case for the Andante-Scherzo order. I found the symphony to exhibit a beautiful architecture even with the "wrong" order. Still, I am leaning toward the Abbado/Berlin live recording.

Has anyone else listened to the "Tragic" symphony this week?

[Biffo]

I just listened to Mahler's 6th again, the Leonard Bernstein/NYPO recording from the '60s.



... and somehow, I enjoyed it more than ever. I found it absolutely phenomenal, moving, and, in turns, shocking and totally life-affirming. It is definitely one of the darkest symphonies ever written by anyone. I can see why the young Alban Berg and Anton Webern were so enamored with it. Berg once wrote to Webern thus:

"Es gibt doch nur eine VI. trotz der Pastorale." (There is only one Sixth, despite the Pastoral.)

A great work. I would probably now agree that it's one of his best. I'm sure I will be playing it back in my head all day.

After all, I still need to find a recording that makes a good case for the Andante-Scherzo order. I found the symphony to exhibit a beautiful architecture even with the "wrong" order. Still, I am leaning toward the Abbado/Berlin live recording.

Has anyone else listened to the "Tragic" symphony this week?

I haven't listened to the Sixth for a while though Bernstein/NYPO was the last version I heard. I no longer worry about the movement order and just play it in the order the conductor has chosen. Bernstein was the first  version I heard, on LP with the infamous 'garden gnome' cover, but somehow it made no impact on me. The first version I bought was Kubelik/Bavarian Radio SO and that is probably still my favourite though it has the movements in the 'wrong' order. For a performance with Andante- Scherzo I usually go for Barbirolli, live with the Philharmonia Orchestra (Testament).

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Aw, too bad. I do really want to hear the full Boulez/Mahler cycle at some point in life, but I can't justify to myself paying full price right now. 

Full price? It seems about 35 Euros/Dollars, depending on where you are (only a touch more expensive in the UK, on Amazon, at least)... which isn't so bad for a 14 disc set of fairly modern recordings from a major label. Not a freebe, granted, but a pretty good deal, I think... and no more expensive than any other cycle I can think of.

[vers la flamme]

Full price? It seems about 35 Euros/Dollars, depending on where you are (only a touch more expensive in the UK, on Amazon, at least)... which isn't so bad for a 14 disc set of fairly modern recordings from a major label. Not a freebe, granted, but a pretty good deal, I think... and no more expensive than any other cycle I can think of.

Point being, I'm not buying Mahler cycles right now, period, unless I happen to be getting one for the cost of shipping from someone who has one and hates it enough to ditch it. I have more Mahler than I have time to listen, and my collection isn't jack compared to some of those I see talked about here. The only complete Mahler cycle that I have is the Bernstein/NYPO, and I plan to keep it that way for at least another year or so. I am very new to Mahler.

Having gotten all that out of the way, you're right, $35 is an excellent price for that Boulez set. More than fair. But I'm looking for freebies here. 

@Biffo. Can you show me this garden gnome cover?  You're not the first I've heard to recommend the Barbirolli live recording.

[Cato]

I bought the Pierre Boulez cycle as the CD's appeared and was always happy with what I heard! 

#1, #7, #3, and #8 stood out especially, but I was not disappointed: they compare well with Kubelik and Bernstein, I think.

[Biffo]

Point being, I'm not buying Mahler cycles right now, period, unless I happen to be getting one for the cost of shipping from someone who has one and hates it enough to ditch it. I have more Mahler than I have time to listen, and my collection isn't jack compared to some of those I see talked about here. The only complete Mahler cycle that I have is the Bernstein/NYPO, and I plan to keep it that way for at least another year or so. I am very new to Mahler.

Having gotten all that out of the way, you're right, $35 is an excellent price for that Boulez set. More than fair. But I'm looking for freebies here. 

@Biffo. Can you show me this garden gnome cover?  You're not the first I've heard to recommend the Barbirolli live recording.

It has been mentioned  a couple of times in the Worst looking CD/LP artwork thread, most recently just over a week ago. It is on p173, #3442.

The issue came up a few years ago in CM forum of Amazon UK during a discussion of LB's Mahler 6. Someone mentioned 'the one with the garden gnome on the cover' and several people seemed to know what he was talking about. I was baffled, I borrowed the album from a record library years ago and had no recollection of any garden gnomes on the cover. The cover reappeared in this forum and I immediately remembered the full horror of it. It is not actually a garden gnome but looks to me like a piece of naff pseudo-classical statuary. Either way it is hideous; what was the cover designer thinking of? Or more likely taking.

This is what real garden gnomes look like -

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSPFa6aHxRbuwKb-nAu9mQpS_L5gQ:1569748330306&q=garden+gnomes&tbm=isch&source=univ&sxsrf=ACYBGNSPFa6aHxRbuwKb-nAu9mQpS_L5gQ:1569748330306&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb_vSc2PXkAhVCt3EKHdayBacQsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1440&bih=757#imgrc=LDLbhMpmw8L_EM

[vers la flamme]

^I see, I found that other thread you mentioned. Wow, that is an ugly cover. You're right that it's not exactly a garden gnome, which explains why I got no hits when I googled "Mahler 6 garden gnome". 

I am listening to the Barbirolli Mahler 9th:



Pretty good so far. Not terribly far removed from the Bernstein/NYPO in interpretation, but it is leaner, more incisive, and more direct, I think. The adagio is also, I think, better, at least so far. More lyrical, less nebulous. The only recordings I have heard are the Bernstein and then this Barbirolli. I'm not on a mission to explore all of the many other recordings, at least not at this juncture, but I have somehow ended up with four recordings in the past couple weeks. 

Overall, I think I prefer the Bernstein, though the adagio here is indeed better. Anyway, I am at an early stage in my appreciation with this symphony. This is the third time I've ever heard it. Take all my comments with as many grains of salt as necessary.

Has anyone else listened to Mahler's 9th in the past week or so? What recording, and what did you think? If you haven't, rectify that immediately! This 9th month of 2019 is almost over, make it count. 

[vers la flamme]

This is an absolutely brilliant performance of the 4th symphony. I bought it impulsively, but I would highly recommend it to any fan of this great symphony – for me, it was the 4th that won me over on Mahler in the first place, the Reiner/Chicago recording. This one may be even better.

[vers la flamme]

What does Mahler's 9th symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.

Did it take you several listens to "crack" Mahler's 9th, or did it make sense right away? I feel like it's music that I need to slowly unfold. Maybe I should even take a break and come back at a later point in life. I think it is a strange, beautiful, and massive work. There are parts of it that I still can't make heads or tails of, especially the inner movements. The adagio makes more sense every time I hear it.

[André]

Although I've always loved the ninth, there was something in it I couldn't relate to. A few years ago I found out that the key to the finale lies in the slow sections of the scherzo. Ever since then the emotional climax of the work has shifted from the second half of I to the second half of IV. For me it's the apex of all Mahler's oeuvre.

[Alek Hidell]

What does Mahler's 9th symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.

Did it take you several listens to "crack" Mahler's 9th, or did it make sense right away? I feel like it's music that I need to slowly unfold. Maybe I should even take a break and come back at a later point in life. I think it is a strange, beautiful, and massive work. There are parts of it that I still can't make heads or tails of, especially the inner movements. The adagio makes more sense every time I hear it.

Well, I can tell you what it isn't to me: Mahler's "farewell" to life, as is often said about it. That's a load of sentimental rubbish as far as I'm concerned. As I've said before, if this symphony is supposed to be his farewell, what was the Tenth intended to be? His "just kidding, I'm not dead yet" symphony? And, as Tom Service points out, "far from going gently into a sort of pre-deathly contemplation, Mahler was full of plans, action, and music in the years when he was writing the Ninth Symphony. He was taking up his post at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, writing Das Lied von der Erde, preparing for the premiere of the Eighth Symphony, and writing, but not completing, what would truly be his last symphony, the Tenth."

I love all of Mahler's symphonies (well, that may be a stretch when it comes to the Eighth, but even in it there are some lovely moments). But the Ninth has always been problematic for me. I love the first movement, and the finale is all right (though when it comes to slow endings, I like the Third's more), but those two inner movements just don't do much for me. There's one passage, I believe in the third movement, where the strings are playing a high, almost screaming melody - I'm always glad when it's over.

[vers la flamme]

Well, I can tell you what it isn't to me: Mahler's "farewell" to life, as is often said about it. That's a load of sentimental rubbish as far as I'm concerned. As I've said before, if this symphony is supposed to be his farewell, what was the Tenth intended to be? His "just kidding, I'm not dead yet" symphony? And, as Tom Service points out, "far from going gently into a sort of pre-deathly contemplation, Mahler was full of plans, action, and music in the years when he was writing the Ninth Symphony. He was taking up his post at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, writing Das Lied von der Erde, preparing for the premiere of the Eighth Symphony, and writing, but not completing, what would truly be his last symphony, the Tenth."

I love all of Mahler's symphonies (well, that may be a stretch when it comes to the Eighth, but even in it there are some lovely moments). But the Ninth has always been problematic for me. I love the first movement, and the finale is all right (though when it comes to slow endings, I like the Third's more), but those two inner movements just don't do much for me. There's one passage, I believe in the third movement, where the strings are playing a high, almost screaming melody - I'm always glad when it's over.

Very interesting. Thank you for your perspective. I'm so used to Mahler fans saying that the 9th is his greatest work or some such, that it's almost refreshing to see someone who doesn't care for it as much. I won't say that the inner movements do nothing for me at all, but I do find them somewhat confusing. The Rondo-Burleske is just bizarre. I'm still trying to piece it all together in my head. I won't make any call about whether or not I like the symphony or its greatness until I hear it at least another 5-10 times.

So considering you don't like the 8th much either (nor do I, certainly my least favorite Mahler symphony alongside the 3rd, though I still need to give both another fair shot)... how do you rate late Mahler in general? Do you like Das Lied von der Erde? Or the 10th symphony?

Personally, I adore DLvdE – I'm listening to it now, in fact. I have yet to give a fair shot to the 10th symphony. But I think it's safe to say that Mahler's late-period works tend to be much more challenging than his earlier or middle works.

[Alek Hidell]

[...] So considering you don't like the 8th much either (nor do I, certainly my least favorite Mahler symphony alongside the 3rd, though I still need to give both another fair shot)... how do you rate late Mahler in general? Do you like Das Lied von der Erde? Or the 10th symphony?

Personally, I adore DLvdE – I'm listening to it now, in fact. I have yet to give a fair shot to the 10th symphony. But I think it's safe to say that Mahler's late-period works tend to be much more challenging than his earlier or middle works.

I like DLvdE well enough. I have to confess I'm not a big fan of classical-style singing in general, so I don't listen to much of it. But I've heard DLvdE many times. Given that blind spot I have, it's more than tolerable.

(Having said that, I have to add that the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony even though it has some singing in it. )

I can say about the same for the Tenth. It's been a long time since I've heard one of the completions - and I believe one or the other of the Cooke versions are the only ones I've heard - so all I can say is that I don't remember disliking it. That first movement, which Mahler did complete, is interesting in how it hints at the coming "atonal" revolution, especially that one dramatic chord that comes along near the end (? - I think). One wonders what kind of music Mahler might have written if he'd lived until 1920 or so - not only in what it might have sounded like, but how he would have reacted to the generally much smaller scale of works produced in the wake of the Second Viennese School. There certainly weren't many 80- or 90-minute symphonies written after 1910 or so.

[aukhawk]

I see this reply is doomed to end-of-page oblivion, so ...