Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Madiel]

An educated guess based off discussions of Mahler's 8 there.

Well I've never heard Solti's 8th, and the 8th is still my least favourite Mahler symphony.

[bhodges]

Interesting comments on the Eighth, which I love, but it took recordings other than Solti's to get there, e.g., Haitink and Chailly. Some conductors focus too much on the big moments in the piece, when the reality is that (like much of Mahler) there are many quieter, chamber music-like sequences, too. The contrast between them is what makes the symphony work: Fortissimos shrinking down to pianissimos, and gargantuan tuttis alongside intimate solos.

Also, the work really does need great soloists and an expert chorus, all of whom have signed on to "you don't always need to sing your guts out." Otherwise, the score can seem monolithic, and/or overblown, or even dull. It's a tricky balancing act to pull off.

--Bruce

[bhodges]

It's a majorly problematic symphony to record for conventional playback (stereo).

It's quite stunning when performed well. I would love to see either Ivan Fischer or Honeck do it at some point if they ever chose to.

Yes to both of these points. Fischer or Honeck would be terrific choices. (I would love to see what Reference Recordings would do for Honeck, since that label is doing superb work for him and Pittsburgh these days.)

I've been very lucky to have heard the Eighth live four or five times, with Chailly, Levine, and others I can't recall at the moment. Like many large scores, it shows its true colors when you hear it in a large room (i.e., not at home).

--Bruce

[vers la flamme]

Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it. 

[bhodges]

Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it. 

Ah, too bad. His lean approach and rhythmic vitality (e.g., in Bartók and Mozart) might have served him well in this piece.

--Bruce

[staxomega]

Interesting comments on the Eighth, which I love, but it took recordings other than Solti's to get there, e.g., Haitink and Chailly. Some conductors focus too much on the big moments in the piece, when the reality is that (like much of Mahler) there are many quieter, chamber music-like sequences, too. The contrast between them is what makes the symphony work: Fortissimos shrinking down to pianissimos, and gargantuan tuttis alongside intimate solos.

Also, the work really does need great soloists and an expert chorus, all of whom have signed on to "you don't always need to sing your guts out." Otherwise, the score can seem monolithic, and/or overblown, or even dull. It's a tricky balancing act to pull off.

--Bruce

The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made 

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.

[Mirror Image]

Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it. 

Oh well, there are plenty of fantastic performances out there.

[JBS]

The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made 

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.

Youtube has the video of Rattle conducting the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain in the Eighth during the 2002 Proms.
https://youtu.be/LKof4e_7cYA

[bhodges]

The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made 

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.

Agree about the Solti. Too pushed; he doesn't let the score breathe. And AFAIK, Haitink only made the one studio recording, not any live -- a pity. (But I heard through the grapevine that he was another conductor who didn't really care for the score.)

And I actually have not yet heard Horenstein, which is something of a classic. (First UK performance, maybe?)

Your Rattle experience must have been overwhelming. When he is "on" -- and choral music often brings out the best in him -- he can be magnificent. With similar fervor, a few years ago Dudamel did the piece in Caracas with the combined Simón Bolívar and LA Phil orchestras. He definitely knows and likes the piece. Not sure if the concert hall acoustics there did anyone any favors, but oh well.

Youtube has the video of Rattle conducting the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain in the Eighth during the 2002 Proms.
https://youtu.be/LKof4e_7cYA

Thank you so much! I will likely use this for holiday listening, either today or tomorrow. 

--Bruce

[staxomega]

Agree about the Solti. Too pushed; he doesn't let the score breathe. And AFAIK, Haitink only made the one studio recording, not any live -- a pity. (But I heard through the grapevine that he was another conductor who didn't really care for the score.)

And I actually have not yet heard Horenstein, which is something of a classic. (First UK performance, maybe?)

Your Rattle experience must have been overwhelming. When he is "on" -- and choral music often brings out the best in him -- he can be magnificent. With similar fervor, a few years ago Dudamel did the piece in Caracas with the combined Simón Bolívar and LA Phil orchestras. He definitely knows and likes the piece. Not sure if the concert hall acoustics there did anyone any favors, but oh well.

Thank you so much! I will likely use this for holiday listening, either today or tomorrow. 

--Bruce

I would say the Rattle was a top 5 concert experience. And to show just how little I follow his career I was surprised that he has actually recorded it twice! I'm not sure if Horenstein was the first UK recording, a while back I was A/B comparing it against a few different versions and Antoni Wit's overall conception of Part 1 was not too dissimilar, though I didn't make it past the first part.

The most recent one I heard was Thierry Fischer with Utah, I will have to revisit this one as it did sound promising though if anything the first part sounded a bit pushed. Nagano is another I need to hear.

[LKB]

I've attended performances of M8 twice. Both were acceptable, if not brilliant, but a truly brilliant live M8 is, I suspect, among the rarest concert experiences one might encounter.

I have owned four recordings:  Solti, Bernstein on CBS/Sony, Bernstein DG DVD, and the Haitink studio recording from the 70's.

I prefer Solti, because his soloists are favorites of mine and acquit themselves well enough, and also for the CSO.

[Mirror Image]

I've attended performances of M8 twice. Both were acceptable, if not brilliant, but a truly brilliant live M8 is, I suspect, among the rarest concert experiences one might encounter.

I have owned four recordings:  Solti, Bernstein on CBS/Sony, Bernstein DG DVD, and the Haitink studio recording from the 70's.

I prefer Solti, because his soloists are favorites of mine and acquit themselves well enough, and also for the CSO.

It is a rather difficult symphony to get right I think, but I'm slowly coming around to it with each successive listen. I'll have to give a listen to the Solti since you rate it so highly.

[LKB]

It is a rather difficult symphony to get right I think, but I'm slowly coming around to it with each successive listen. I'll have to give a listen to the Solti since you rate it so highly.

The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think. 

[André]

There's a new recording of the 6th symphony under Adam Fischer:



On the Presto website audio extracts are available. At first I was somewhat surprised and intrigued by what seemed like little phrase pullings, HIP style. Then I read that Fischer explains in the booklet notes :

«  Here we have a great number of slight rubatos that are not easy to carry out in practice. If you are too afraid of losing control and you play these passages too mechanically, the music loses its character. On the other hand, it should not sound unstable, as if you were weak in the knees. These passages require precise chamber-music-making among the orchestra groups. In the immediate wake of massive tuttis, this becomes a delicate matter. If you succeed in getting it right if the oboes, the bassoon, and the violins manage to play those rubatos together and breathe together the result can be fantastic. (from Adam Fischer's remarks of the booklet texts)

  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6

So it appears Mahler wanted (wrote in ?) these tiny fluctuations. I couldn't make up my mind after hearing 30second bits of course, but then I figured if this goes on for the full 80 minutes, the symphony will definitely sound different. Good or bad ? Anyone heard that recording ?

[Mirror Image]

The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think. 

I'll certainly get around to it some day.

[Maestro267]

My one gripe with Solti's Mahler 8...why do the soloists sound like they're standing in a single-file line in Part I? You can hardly hear the tenor!

[Jo498]

Wasn't one or more of the soloists mixed in? They never were in the same hall when singing this, I think I read somewhere!

[JBS]

The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think. 

Shirley-Quirk unfortunately is one of many singers who end up chewing their words in that part of Pater Estaticus. (This is perhaps the most frequent flaw I've found in M8 recordings. I'm guessing Mahler didn't write the part to come smoothly off the tongue, so it's hard to enunciate without making an extra effort.)

Ewiger Wonnebrand,
Glühendes Liebeband,
Siedender Schmerz der Brust,
Schäumende Gotteslust.
Pfeile, durchdringet mich,
Lanzen, bezwinget mich,
Keulen, zerschmettert mich,
Blitze, durchwettert mich!
Daß ja das Nichtige
Alles verflüchtige,
Glänze der Dauerstern,
Ewiger Liebe Kern.

[André]

Tongue twisting, tripping stuff indeed.

[Madiel]

There's a new recording of the 6th symphony under Adam Fischer:



On the Presto website audio extracts are available. At first I was somewhat surprised and intrigued by what seemed like little phrase pullings, HIP style. Then I read that Fischer explains in the booklet notes :

« Here we have a great number of slight rubatos that are not easy to carry out in practice. If you are too afraid of losing control and you play these passages too mechanically, the music loses its character. On the other hand, it should not sound unstable, as if you were weak in the knees. These passages require precise chamber-music-making among the orchestra groups. In the immediate wake of massive tuttis, this becomes a delicate matter. If you succeed in getting it right if the oboes, the bassoon, and the violins manage to play those rubatos together and breathe together the result can be fantastic. (from Adam Fischer's remarks of the booklet texts)

  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6

So it appears Mahler wanted (wrote in ?) these tiny fluctuations. I couldn't make up my mind after hearing 30second bits of course, but then I figured if this goes on for the full 80 minutes, the symphony will definitely sound different. Good or bad ? Anyone heard that recording ?

Without wading through 263 pages of the score, I wouldn't assume this is an argument based on things Mahler explicitly wanted as opposed to an argument about performance practice. You yourself described it as "HIP style".