Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Lilas Pastia]

Wow ! So 'heits' has no meaning, only a grammatical function? what do we have, then? A 'feeling of being lost'? as in Ich bin der welt abhanden gekommen?

Mucho interesting. thanks, Sarge!

[Marc]

Wow! So 'heits' has no meaning, only a grammatical function? what do we have, then? A 'feeling of being lost'? as in Ich bin der welt abhanden gekommen?

Oh dear! This reminds me of an earlier discussion between yours truly & Sarge .... long time ago .... somewhere around springtime 2007, in this thread.
I'm still not sure if that song is relating towards 'a feeling of being lost'. Not in the end, that is. Before those final words, I think the the 'singer' was feeling lost in the Weltgetümmel of the 'normal' world: met der ich sonst viele Zeit verdorben.

But I remember that Sarge did not agree with that. He also came with a similarity between Rückert's lyrics and the Simon & Garfunkel song I am a rock.

Anyway, maybe my interpretation has got more to do with my own personality. In many cases one tends to understand lyrics/movies/music in a rather projectional way, I think. And, to be honest, I wouldn't feel lost within my heaven, my love and my song. It would give me a feeling of Unvergänglichkeit!

[jlaurson]

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p= 1120

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.3 (Part 1)





The Third Symphony, Mahler's longest, has sublime moments and plenty of them, but it can be difficult to find your way to—and around—it: Its quilt of music is complicated and never just straight forward and clear-cut. It has two large outer movements around four smaller movements—the first movement alone takes over half an hour. In my traversing Mahler, only the Seventh was more stubborn in opening itself up to me. The titles that Mahler originally gave the movements, only to withdraw them later, don't offer much help. But the fear that knowing these titles might lead to misunderstanding the symphony is no longer given either, so there is no harm in listing them:

[MishaK]

"Heit" tacked on the end of a word turns it into a noun: verloren is an adjective; Verlorenheit the noun. You would add s (heits) if you tack on another word like Jens did: Verlorenheitsgefühl.

Sarge

Actually, the 's' is a genitive 's', because the Gefühl belongs to the Verlorenheit, hence Verlorenheit has to be in the Genitive if you're making a compound noun. 

[Lilas Pastia]

Rosa                       rosae
rosa                        rosae
rosa                        rosas
rosae                      rosarum
rosae                      rosis
rosas                      rosis

Ah, sweet memories of my youth

[Sergeant Rock]

Actually, the 's' is a genitive 's', because the Gefühl belongs to the Verlorenheit, hence Verlorenheit has to be in the Genitive if you're making a compound noun. 

Cases suck 

Sarge

[Drasko]

Rosa                       rosae
rosa                        rosae
rosa                        rosas
rosae                      rosarum
rosae                      rosis
rosas                      rosis

Ah, sweet memories of my youth

Now, if you'd go on and conjugate ferre, I'd be duly impressed.

[Lilas Pastia]

Now, if you'd go on and conjugate ferre, I'd be duly impressed.

When in doubt, ask a friend 

I'm not sure if this is the verb that gave the commonly used French expression 'sans coup férir' (litt: without a blow, meaning win without opposition from the enemy).

[jlaurson]

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.3 (Part 2)

[Drasko]

When in doubt, ask a friend 

I'm not sure if this is the verb that gave the commonly used French expression 'sans coup férir' (litt: without a blow, meaning win without opposition from the enemy).

Oh, no Mr. Pastia that's incomplete, just naming the stems for perfect and participial won't do. We want the whole bloody lot

Could be. The verb means to carry, but I've seen law students fall under it sans coup férir at latin exams.

[Lilas Pastia]

Then I flunk . I only had 3 years of Latin classes in high school. I was very good in vocabulary, reasonably good with the déclinaisons*, but sweated a lot when it came to verb conjugaisons*.  I'm quite rusted after almost 40 years...

* What are the english terms for those?

[jlaurson]

hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy or at least read the Mahler articles?? 

[Wanderer]

ferre

fero, tuli, latum, ferre... oh, the memories...! 

One can even find Latin declensions on the internet these days:
http://users.ser.sch.gr/statpapako/fero%20k%20feror.pdf

hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy ... the Mahler articles?? 

Immensely, Jens. 

[Lilas Pastia]

Of course, Jens . They are extremely well made and quite informative.

What did you make of Maureen Forrester in the Mehta 3rd? Hearing her in that work is one of my most cherished concert experiences. Did you listen to the Rögner version? I found that one so musical.

[jlaurson]

Of course, Jens . They are extremely well made and quite informative.

What did you make of Maureen Forrester in the Mehta 3rd? Hearing her in that work is one of my most cherished concert experiences. Did you listen to the Rögner version? I found that one so musical.

Don't have Roegner, "only" Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado WPh, Boulez, Gielen, Zander, Rattle, MTT, Haitink RCO, Haitink Kristm.RCO, Mitrop. NY, Horenstein, Mehta LA, Salonen, Zinman, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Levine.

I just noticed that I didn't give my "Top 5" for the 3rd. Mehta makes the cut (as co-5th choice). Forrester is one of the finer (more unique, if you wish) aspects of the performance, but not her absolute best, perhaps.

[Sergeant Rock]

hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy or at least read the Mahler articles?? 

Of course I've been reading your articles...which much interest, nods of agreement and the occasional gnashing of teeth and hair pulling. I have to say your Mahler 3 picks have me puzzled. Not a single recording you mention (nine in total, I believe) would be among my top six. Maybe it's a generational thing (you being the new kid on the block, me being a 50/60s era geezer). Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. [Edit: actually all your picks fall into that time frame; the Kubelik was released in 2002 although recorded much earlier of course.] That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

As far as Abbado/Berlin being your first choice...wow. You and I really do have different taste in this music   That's okay. We've done lists before in this forum; every list is different. No two individuals are ever going to choose the same recordings or have the same top preferences. I'm just surprised an earlier generation of Mahler conductors seems to have made so little impression on you.

I noticed one small mistake in your Abbado review. You wrote: "the Berlin audience sits in stunned awe"--that should be "London" audience. It's a live recording from the Royal Festival Hall.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

Of course I've been reading your articles...which much interest, nods of agreement and the occasional gnashing of teeth and hair pulling. I have to say your Mahler 3 picks have me puzzled. Not a single recording you mention (nine in total, I believe) would be among my top six. Maybe it's a generational thing (you being the new kid on the block, me being a 50/60s era geezer). Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

As far as Abbado/Berlin being your first choice...wow. You and I really do have different taste in this music   That's okay. We've done lists before in this forum; every list is different. No two individuals are ever going to choose the same recordings or have the same top preferences. I'm just surprised an earlier generation of Mahler conductors seems to have made so little impression on you.

I noticed one small mistake in your Abbado review. You wrote: "the Berlin audience sits in stunned awe"--that should be "London" audience. It's a live recording from the Royal Festival Hall.

Sarge

Funny you mention that. Just a few minutes I added two more sentences to my 3/2 review in which I explain the absence of Horenstein et al.
When it comes to the Third, the answer is: Yes. Newer is better. Better playing, better singing, and very, very importantly: better sonics.
But generally I have noticed that my articles, the record-review core of which is several years old, tends to focus on new recordings. Sometimes purposefully (because the old stuff really isn't any better) but also because my exposure to new recordings was particularly strong at the time. The only Mitrop. I know is the New York recording. Worthless non-starter. I have three of the four commercially available Haitinks (not the BPh)... the last is indeed the best.
Thanks for catching the Abbado error. I should probably listen to that again, too (not with me to have re-checked)... what's not to like?

You will find a much broader range of recording dates for the other symphonies, most especially the 6th. (Where Mitrop./Cologne is one of the top-choices.)

[Lilas Pastia]

Jens, if gorgeous sonics are your thing, you can't do better than the Rögner. It's jaw-droppingly natural and beautiful.

I agree with Forreste, she was slightly past her prime at the time - better under Haitink, still one of the most 'natural' versions ever made.

[Que]

Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. [Edit: actually all your picks fall into that time frame; the Kubelik was released in 2002 although recorded much earlier of course.] That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

I noticed the same thing. No Bruno Walter - who worked under Mahler and was a close friend!

When it comes to the Third, the answer is: Yes. Newer is better. Better playing, better singing, and very, very importantly: better sonics.

I believe we had a similar discussion on Bach cantata recordings...
Better sonics? Sure!  Better playing and singing in Mahler now than in the Old Days? Pure (excusez le mot) nonsense...IMO.

Q

[jlaurson]

I noticed the same thing. No Bruno Walter - who worked under Mahler and was a close friend!

I believe we had a similar discussion on Bach cantata recordings...
Better sonics? Sure!  Better playing and singing in Mahler now than in the Old Days? Pure (excusez le mot) nonsense...IMO.

You must separate interpretation from technical performance. A note missed is a note missed, and it's easy to tell.
You may well think that old interpretations are so superior to new ones, that they make up for all the shoddy playing... but that's not the argument I am making (or care to get into, for that matter). I've rarely heard a 3rd where better execution didn't also lead to a better result.

B.Walter Mahler 3rd???