Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Scarpia]

The distinction between indulgence and self-indulgence is not easy to define. 

When my collection was modest in size having more than one recording of a piece was unjustifiable when there were so many other pieces that were not represented at all.  In that case, one of Bernstein's (self-)indulgent efforts was often a disaster.  I remember Bernstein's Sibelius 2 was the first recording of the piece I had ever heard and that was no way to understand what Sibelius wrote.  It left me with the impression that the piece was a mess until I heard another recording.  Now I can go back to it and appreciate that by ignoring the composers directions Bernstein is bringing out things hidden in the score, but that only works after I know the piece.  In any case, there are quite a few Bernstein recordings that I cherish for that reason, but none that I would consider a reference recording.

As far as his technique, I was in the Hall when DG recorded Mahler 3 with the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fisher.  I seem to remember a lot of jumping up and down on the podium, but the Orchestra didn't seem to find it so helpful.They had to patch that performance a lot.  The close of the finale didn't hang together in the performance, but sounded wonderful in the patched up recording.

[DavidRoss]

Agree absolutely.  I can only imagine how bizarre that Sibelius 2 recording must sound if you're not already familiar with the piece!  Though I generally agree that "reference" recordings should be relatively free from interpretational extremes, sometimes they're just so damned good that they ought not be ignored:  DuPre's Elgar VCC with Barbirolli, for example, or Bernstein's Mahler 2 on DGG.  I'm with Sarge on 1, 5, and 6 also, and number the 9 among my faves as well.  None of these seem extreme to me these days.  I'll have to give the DGG 3rd another listen soon. 

Maybe there's a bit of a "full circle" thing for me in this, too.  Like many others, when young I was drawn to Mahler's own extremism, but that wore on me as I matured and I was drawn to more "objective" views like Kubelik and then Boulez.  Then a couple of years ago I began another round of fascination with Mahler's symphonies, spurred partly by the MTT/SFS cycle, which indulges in the beauty of the orchestration and sheer sound and more nuanced emotion, then more recently boosted again by Sinopoli's Philharmonia set, also quite lush and beautiful.  Maybe drawing closer to the end of my life--and battling cancer along the way--has opened me to something about Mahler's own passion for earthly beauty and ironic amusement at human mawkishness that's connected with his own preoccupation with death, and which certain conductors connect with and express more fully than others.

Enough rumination!  Time for Lenny's patched together DGG 3rd with the NYPO.  (You know, it's hard for me to believe now but until a couple of years ago I never cared much for the 3rd, regarding it as too sprawling and indulgent!  Now it's one of my faves.  )

[Scarpia]

Agree absolutely.  I can only imagine how bizarre that Sibelius 2 recording must sound if you're not already familiar with the piece!  Though I generally agree that "reference" recordings should be relatively free from interpretational extremes, sometimes they're just so damned good that they ought not be ignored:  DuPre's Elgar VCC with Barbirolli, for example, or Bernstein's Mahler 2 on DGG.  I'm with Sarge on 1, 5, and 6 also, and number the 9 among my faves as well.  None of these seem extreme to me these days.  I'll have to give the DGG 3rd another listen soon. 

Maybe there's a bit of a "full circle" thing for me in this, too.  Like many others, when young I was drawn to Mahler's own extremism, but that wore on me as I matured and I was drawn to more "objective" views like Kubelik and then Boulez.  Then a couple of years ago I began another round of fascination with Mahler's symphonies, spurred partly by the MTT/SFS cycle, which indulges in the beauty of the orchestration and sheer sound and more nuanced emotion, then more recently boosted again by Sinopoli's Philharmonia set, also quite lush and beautiful.  Maybe drawing closer to the end of my life--and battling cancer along the way--has opened me to something about Mahler's own passion for earthly beauty and ironic amusement at human mawkishness that's connected with his own preoccupation with death, and which certain conductors connect with and express more fully than others.

Enough rumination!  Time for Lenny's patched together DGG 3rd with the NYPO.  (You know, it's hard for me to believe now but until a couple of years ago I never cared much for the 3rd, regarding it as too sprawling and indulgent!  Now it's one of my faves.  )

I suspect our life experience affect us in ways that we don't always recognize.  I like the third but I have to skip the movements with singing, especially the part with the children's choir.

[Sergeant Rock]

I suspect our life experience affect us in ways that we don't always recognize.  I like the third but I have to skip the movements with singing, especially the part with the children's choir.

I didn't enjoy the Bim Bam movement either for years...not until I heard Levine's performance where he makes it sound almost sinister. Mitropoulos is another conductor who brings out the dark side of the music.

And David and Renfield: three magnificent posts. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking all day.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

And David and Renfield: three magnificent posts. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking all day.

And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   

[DavidRoss]

And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   

I take that to mean he agrees with something I said.  Since I agreed with you, it must just be an oversight. 

[Sergeant Rock]

And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   

I take that to mean he agrees with something I said.  Since I agreed with you, it must just be an oversight. 

Okay, okay...Scarpia gets a gold star too:





Sarge

[karlhenning]

Sweet!

[DavidRoss]

Of course, some folks like chopped liver.

[Scarpia]

Okay, okay...Scarpia gets a gold star too:





Sarge

Ok, but I was hoping for platinum.   

[Sergeant Rock]

Ok, but I was hoping for platinum.   

As JdP pointed out just a few minutes ago, I'm a high priest of Relativism. Everyone's posts are equally worthy and therefore only gold stars are awarded...and everyone gets one 

Sarge

[Scarpia]

As JdP pointed out just a few minutes ago, I'm a high priest of Relativism. Everyone's posts are equally worthy and therefore only gold stars are awarded...and everyone gets one 

Sarge

Well, there's a policy no one can disagree with.   

[DarkAngel]

I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works 

I find it useful for reference purposes to own the Bruno Walter VPO 9th from 1938, sound is decent and you can hear someone with direct link to composer, who worked with him and heard it performed by composer with out too much time removed from his death......then compare that to progression of performances since:



Walter VPO (1938) - 69:42
Bernstein NYPO - 79:51
Bernstein RCO - 89:11

It is common now for modern Mahler 9ths to come in around 90 minutes in glacially slow performances......a shame

There are some people fighting the trend like recent Barenboim 9th at 77:55 and I salute him and am buying his series

[mc ukrneal]

I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works 

I find it useful for reference purposes to own the Bruno Walter VPO 9th from 1938, sound is decent and you can hear someone with direct link to composer, who worked with him and heard it performed by conductor with out too much time removed from his death......then compare that to progression of performances since:

Walter VPO (1938) - 69:42
Bernstein NYPO - 79:51
Bernstein RCO - 89:11

It is common now for modern Mahler 9ths to come in around 90 minutes in glacially slow performances......a shame

There are some people fighting the trend like recent Barenboim 9th at 77:55 and I salute him and am buying his series

Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.

[DarkAngel]

Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.

Are you recommending it?

Have no Mahler by Norrington at this time, I have my doubts but will eventually check into it........perhaps not surprising one of my favorite 9ths is the Ancerl/Supraphon at 78:53 (not that fast tempos are my only criteria)

[Sergeant Rock]

Szell 75:32




Sarge

[DarkAngel]

Sarge
I really like Szell's Mahler 4th & 6th and wonder why he did not record more Mahler........

[mc ukrneal]

Are you recommending it?

Have no Mahler by Norrington at this time, I have my doubts but will eventually check into it........perhaps not surprising one of my favorite 9ths is the Ancerl/Supraphon at 78:53 (not that fast tempos are my only criteria)

I've not heard it or anything of it. I just happened to be looking at it before you wrote and when I went back, noticed the timings were what you were looking for. JPC has samples.

[Scarpia]

Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.

The one virtue of Norrington performances, they're generally over with fairly quickly.

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge
I really like Szell's Mahler 4th & 6th and wonder why he did not record more Mahler........

Conductors of his generation were picky, weren't they? Besides 4, 6, 9, 10 (two movements) and Des Knaben Wunderhorn, he also conducted DLVDE (with Janet Baker!). Other than the three works that were released in the 50s and 60s, he was only interested in recording DLVDE as far as I know. A Vickers/Baker DLVDE came really close to fruition but union rules forced a cancellation at the last moment. (6, 9, and DLVDE--with Lewis instead of Vickers--were live and released after his death.)  Since Columbia was invested in Lenny's cycle then, it's unlikely Szell would have been given the opportunity to record more symphonies even if he'd wanted to.

Sarge