Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Renfield]

It's sad, isn't it, that we are both in a place where a discovery like Greg's doesn't raise even a little tingle of excitement. I only lack Levine and Abbado...and like Greg, I'm more interested in Levine's Philly Ninth. Have no interest in Abbado.

Sarge

Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

I know I'm not terribly fond of Giulini's way with Mahler (I find it a bit derivative, compared to the Walters, Klemperers, and Karajans of his time), and I'm pretty sure there was a good reason I struck that Horenstein off my list, possibly due to the quality of the ensemble.


Yet the more I think of it, my lack of interest for Boulez feels potentially unjustified. I love his 3rd and 8th, and have great respect for his 6th; I even rather like his studio 2nd, that seems to have been rather coolly received in general.

Originally, I had felt that his style, and what the 9th specifically demands (or what I demand from the 9th) would be at odds. But that was before his 8th came out, which surprised me to no end with its tenderness and quiet awe... Do you think I should investigate?



P.S.: While I'm at it, to avoid double-posting, have you - or has anyone - heard any of Zinman's recordings?

I heard him live in the 4th, and am still reeling from the impact of that concert, and the extent to which it made me rethink the piece. But I'm skeptical as to whether he's worked similar miracles in the studio; or perhaps whether I'd be impressed as much.

[jlaurson]

And another thing I'd like to share.


The only other ones I have on this list are: Karajan live and Chailly. 
Talk about a nice discovery!

Is there any reason why we should assume that the uploading (and downloading) of these files is not illegal and the act of acquiring them not theft?
If that's (not) so, I'm astounded by the impressive callousness with which such sites are being treated by those who allegedly love the music that would never have been possible to make if we lived in a 'theft-is-cool society'.

[jlaurson]

It's sad, isn't it, that we are both in a place where a discovery like Greg's doesn't raise even a little tingle of excitement. I only lack Levine and Abbado...and like Greg, I'm more interested in Levine's Philly Ninth. Have no interest in Abbado.

Sarge

I lack Giulini and Horenstein; Levine is perverse... the longest last movement in the history of the ninth symphony. A friend was at the performance... in fact, at all three. He said it was one of the best concerts in his life and it his favorite recording of the Ninth [indeed, of Mahler], too. But he does admit that his love for it on CD may be colored by the live experience.

I've reviewed a few of those listed a couple years back; with timings given: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html

Renfield: The Boulez is VERY good... but then so is most of Boulez (except the 8th, which is a dud in my opinion). Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably held (though not mysterious) in the last movement.

I've heard all of the Zinman out there, except the 8th. He's very, very good at not exaggerating anything. Nothing at all. Compare his First, for example, to Honeck's First--night and day. Most of his Mahler has not leapt out at me; but his Third is very good and recommendable especially if you enjoy surround sound.

[Renfield]

Is there any reason why we should assume that the uploading (and downloading) of these files is not illegal and the act of acquiring them theft?
If that's so, I'm astounded by the impressive callousness with which such sites are being treated by those who allegedly love the music that would never have been possible to make if we lived in a 'theft-is-cool society'.

Easy on the trigger, though! Among all of us in this conversation, only Greg has actually expressed interest in downloading the tracks, and I think you know as well as I do that he is not drowning in money.

What the Italians who own the site intend is a matter for Blogspot to adjudicate, for better or for worse.

(Though let me not be misunderstood: I am not supporting them. Just putting this into a more realistic context.)


Re Boulez, given how we seem to be at odds about the 8th, how would you compare it to his 6th?

Re Zinman, I was afraid of that. Perhaps the single most remarkable thing about that concert was how the lack of any 'usual' exaggeration really brought out the emotion in the piece 'underneath' it, in the live setting.

But when there isn't a concert hall with an acoustic as immediate as the Usher Hall to bring the clear-sounding notes home, as it were, and no audience to make sure it's all going somewhere, I'm wondering what happens with Zinman's approach.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

I had it when it first came out. The first mvt. is quite powerful, but the rest doesn't work for me. The finale was downright repulsive - it was like Boulez performing an emotion-ectomy on the music. I found it so cold that I had to put on the Barbirolli version immediately afterwards, just to get some feeling back.

[jlaurson]

Re Boulez, given how we seem to be at odds about the 8th, how would you compare it to his 6th?

Are you kidding? I love, love, adore, kneel before his 6th. Only his 8th I don't like; the rest I feel anywhere from positive, to impressed, to absolutely-ga-ga about. Boulez' 6th is up there with Barbirolli, Gielen, Mitrop.--just better sounding than all the rest.

[knight66]

I know I'm not terribly fond of Giulini's way with Mahler (I find it a bit derivative, compared to the Walters, Klemperers, and Karajans of his time),

Boy are you lucky that M is not still around. He would have had your entrails across a bed of lettuce for that one. What do you mean anyway? His 9th is superb.

Mike

[BMW]

Why Mahler? with Norman Lebrecht.

Perhaps some Mahlerians on this board are interested in hearing this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/365555182/WHY_MAHLER.mp3

Interesting -- thank you for posting this!

What do you all think about Christa Ludwig saying she never felt Mahler until performing his music with Bernstein (after having sung Das Lied von der Erde with Karajan and Klemperer among others)? 

[knight66]

I assume anyone is free to comment on this. I have had the Klemperer recording for not far off 40 years and I heard Ludwig sing DLVDE under Karajan. To me, she sounded detached, but I don't know whether Bernstein made any detectable difference to the outcome. As far as I was concerned, the approach suited the stoic approach of Klemperer and I found the whole Karajan experience a disappointment as nothing in the performance really involved me, it sounded wonderful, but did not have the undertow that Klemperer had and that at that point had been my main point of reference.

Mike

[Renfield]

Ack! Too many threads in this thread.

Are you kidding? I love, love, adore, kneel before his 6th. Only his 8th I don't like; the rest I feel anywhere from positive, to impressed, to absolutely-ga-ga about. Boulez' 6th is up there with Barbirolli, Gielen, Mitrop.--just better sounding than all the rest.

Yeah, I know that. And I know it's a good recording, as I already have it.

The question is, given that our opinions converge about the 6th, how would you compare that commonly-liked recording to the 9th?

Boy are you lucky that M is not still around. He would have had your entrails across a bed of lettuce for that one. What do you mean anyway? His 9th is superb.

Mike

I haven't heard his 9th itself, so my impressions from his Chicago 1st that I have heard might not necessarily be appropriate for estimating what he could do with the 9th. Yet based on that 1st, Giulini strikes me as someone who might do good Mahler of a non-histrionic variety (Lenny), that's also not 'concept Mahler'; but next to Klemperer, Walter and Barbirolli, from that time, and Karajan to an extent, who all turned in readings that don't make you (me) think "oh, he's doing a this or that with the finale", and are so utterly persuasive, I somehow don't expect Giulini to have much to add for Mahler's 9th in particular, beyond an excellent performance of the same symphony the others already nailed.

By contrast, his Brahms and his Bruckner are self-recommending on the basis of other things than interpretation, and even in that area have things to add that aren't just 'as good as Karajan', but form an equally strong statement.


Hopefully this makes sense! I realise my assumptions might be completely off the mark. But as a result of them, I wouldn't go after that version by default, like so many of the others in the A list. That's mainly what I was saying, albeit crudely.

[Sergeant Rock]

Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

That was the last of his cycle I acquired (just a few weeks ago) and I have not listened to it. Sorry. The only Boulez Mahler I haven't liked, though, is the Sixth. I don't know what's wrong with me. It just didn't make an impression and drew an emotional blank. I can't say that about many M6s! I tend to think the fault is mine though. Maybe I was having a bad hair day or something  I'll give it another try soon. And must hear that Ninth.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I lack Giulini and Horenstein; Levine is perverse...

Which is why I'm interested    Owning 28 Mahler Ninths already, I'm looking for something completely different. Perhaps I will order that Munich Ninth (it's available--the OOP Philly Ninth can get expensive!).

Sarge 

[jlaurson]

The question is, given that our opinions converge about the 6th, how would you compare that commonly-liked recording to the 9th?

I'm not as crazy about his 9th as, say, about his 1st and 6th. But it's about up there with his 1st and 7th as far as my preferences go.

To quote myself from 10 minutes ago: "Renfield: The Boulez 9th is VERY good... [...] Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably-held (though not at all mysterious) in the last movement. "

[Renfield]

I'm not as crazy about his 9th as, say, about his 1st and 6th. But it's about up there with his 1st and 7th as far as my preferences go.

To quote myself from 10 minutes ago: "Renfield: The Boulez 9th is VERY good... [...] Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably-held (though not at all mysterious) in the last movement. "

Yeah, I'd typed that before catching that thread of our discussion, in the other thread. Too many threads!

But thank you. And Sarge, and everyone else for your varied and valuable comments.


I am, furthermore, amused that I seem to strongly like both single Boulez performances each of you two strongly dislikes.

[Papy Oli]

Why Mahler? with Norman Lebrecht.

Perhaps some Mahlerians on this board are interested in hearing this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/365555182/WHY_MAHLER.mp3

thank you for the link, Marc 

[greg]

Easy on the trigger, though! Among all of us in this conversation, only Greg has actually expressed interest in downloading the tracks, and I think you know as well as I do that he is not drowning in money.

Lol. Yeah, I don't even buy anything for myself, hardly ever... I've been needing new clothes and a new cell phone for months, and am scared of spending the money. One day I'll be able to buy more than a couple of CDs a year... 


Now, I have to add that I have heard Giulini before- I have some live performance that I got from SymphonyShare- he is with Philadelphia, in 1972. Is the recording with Chicago similar sounding? Honestly, I hated the performance so much that I had a hard time listening to it. That... is saying a lot. 

[kishnevi]

Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

P.S.: While I'm at it, to avoid double-posting, have you - or has anyone - heard any of Zinman's recordings?

I heard him live in the 4th, and am still reeling from the impact of that concert, and the extent to which it made me rethink the piece. But I'm skeptical as to whether he's worked similar miracles in the studio; or perhaps whether I'd be impressed as much.

I have Zinman's 1, 3, 4, 5, 6,  and 7; will probably be getting his 2 and 8 in the near future, and plan on getting the remaining issues as they appear.  So obviously I like his cycle--but the only two I would say "You have to have this one" are 3 and 4 (so apparently he was able to replicate the concert in the recording sessions*.   1 and 5 are good but not top tier; 6 and 7 seem to be the weakest ones--sturdy but don't strike me like other recordings have.  The sonics are among the best I've heard--almost as if the SACD layer can be heard in a regular CD player.

*the recording was made 13-15 November 2006.  Was that simultaneous with the concert you heard?

[BMW]

Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?

[BMW]

I assume anyone is free to comment on this. I have had the Klemperer recording for not far off 40 years and I heard Ludwig sing DLVDE under Karajan. To me, she sounded detached, but I don't know whether Bernstein made any detectable difference to the outcome. As far as I was concerned, the approach suited the stoic approach of Klemperer and I found the whole Karajan experience a disappointment as nothing in the performance really involved me, it sounded wonderful, but did not have the undertow that Klemperer had and that at that point had been my main point of reference.

Interesting.  I will have to seek out Ludwig's DLVDE recordings (I have only heard a live version of hers with Karajan from Salzburg, 1972).  I was just surprised that she was so matter of fact about Bernstein being the conductor who helped her understand Mahler after others had failed.  I would never challenge a performer's personal feelings about their own work but do her comments suggest that she came to understand Bernstein's Mahler rather than Mahler's music itself?

She sure was not crazy for his tempo here (at 2:20)     --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhGB_bqHrrU

[mc ukrneal]

Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?

I think that's it (unless you get lucky at a used book store or something). They retailed at about $100 when they first came out if I remember correctly (more?), so you are saving money!    I know, I know...

EDIT: I was referring here to the most recent volume being $100+ at release, but I see all are quite a bit more at full retail. Yowzers!