Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[kishnevi]

   Hmmmm...I know there is a complete 10th...and 1, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7 and 9. Are 2 and 8 missing? I've always assumed he completed the cycle twenty years ago.

Sarge

I've got the 2004 re-issue of Levine's Fourth.  The liner notes explicitly state he recorded all the "numbered symphonies" except for 2 and 8.  (I guess that also means he didn't record DLvdE or any of the song cycles).

[greg]

   Hmmmm...I know there is a complete 10th...and 1, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7 and 9. Are 2 and 8 missing? I've always assumed he completed the cycle twenty years ago.

Sarge

I felt like I was having a deja vu... weren't we just talking about this?
Oh, wait... that was Kondrashin. He didn't record 2 or 8, either but recorded the rest (though i guess no 10, so it's not completely the same).


So, I found Ozawa conducting the last movement of the 2nd on youtube. Overall, I think it's pretty good. But- with a better orchestra and better sound quality, I really wonder how great it could be.

I still haven't heard a recording of the 2nd that I like better than my first one, Jansons. There's also a live Boulez recording which I thought was possibly as great, but it's been awhile since I've listened to it, so I'm not sure. I just remember thinking that Boulez sounded perfect, but needed a tad bit more of human warmth, and that's what Jansons provides.

I see that Mehta is one of the most popular recordings. Who does he sound like?

[kishnevi]

I felt like I was having a deja vu... weren't we just talking about this?
Oh, wait... that was Kondrashin. He didn't record 2 or 8, either but recorded the rest (though i guess no 10, so it's not completely the same).


So, I found Ozawa conducting the last movement of the 2nd on youtube. Overall, I think it's pretty good. But- with a better orchestra and better sound quality, I really wonder how great it could be.

I still haven't heard a recording of the 2nd that I like better than my first one, Jansons. There's also a live Boulez recording which I thought was possibly as great, but it's been awhile since I've listened to it, so I'm not sure. I just remember thinking that Boulez sounded perfect, but needed a tad bit more of human warmth, and that's what Jansons provides.

I see that Mehta is one of the most popular recordings. Who does he sound like?

Mehta has made, I think, three recordings of the 2nd: I have the best known one, with the VPO, and the one he made with the Israel Philharmonic; I prefer the latter one: better sonics according to my ears, the chorus is managed better, etc.

Overall, my favorite recording of the 2nd is Bernstein's second, with the NYPO on DG; coming in second is Tilson Thomas/SFO.    But, quite frankly, this symphony is one of my favorites, and I always get caught up in the music before its over, so I can't say I've heard a performance that I don't like.

[greg]

I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

But I do remember liking the moments at the end of the first movement- fast and powerful, how it should be, and the second movement starting off so slowly, as if acknowledging it has to bring itself back up after what just happened.

[Renfield]

I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

Ha! It's hard to say what my favourite Mahler 2nd is; but though I do admire Bernstein/NYPO DG a lot, and possibly Bernstein/NYPO Sony even more, I feel the recent live Tennstedt/LPO is a cut above, for the 'kitchen sink', emotional-onslaught approach to the work.


For other styles of M2, two modern ones that come to mind first and foremost are Gielen's, and Ivan Fischer's. Gielen is sparse, but extremely effective, and (to me) affecting, without ever over-stretching, expressively or orchestrally. Fischer is not dissimilarly poised, and he has the advantage of a tremendous recording, and an excellent choir. But he does indulge somewhat in terms of atmosphere - to great effect!

(As does Rattle, for the atmosphere bit, only his finale doesn't have nearly as much impact; and the recording is nowhere near as sharp.)


Of course, there's Klemperer, whose reading is one of those 'great edifices' of the age of recorded music, managing to power through the symphony without losing a single ounce of its cumulative impact; but there have been more human(e)ly affecting readings.

And I also remember hearing a live Walter on Music & Arts that, although noticeably rougher around the edges than his studio recording, has the most extraordinary rendition of the finale, matched only by the live Tennstedt in my book.

But I understand you're not interested in historical versions.


About Mehta/VPO: it's not bad, but I've heard better. I think that sums it up.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've got the 2004 re-issue of Levine's Fourth.  The liner notes explicitly state he recorded all the "numbered symphonies" except for 2 and 8.  (I guess that also means he didn't record DLvdE or any of the song cycles).

There is a Levine DLVDE but it's on DG, not RCA, with the Berlin Phil, Jessye Norman and Siegfried Jersusalem. Thanks for confirmation about the incompleteness of the cycle. I can stop waiting for a reissue That frees me up to track down copies of the symphonies I'm missing (4, 6, 7 and 9)

Sarge

[Marc]

There is a Levine DLVDE but it's on DG, not RCA, with the Berlin Phil, Jessye Norman and Siegfried Jersusalem. Thanks for confirmation about the incompleteness of the cycle. I can stop waiting for a reissue That frees me up to track down copies of the symphonies I'm missing (4, 6, 7 and 9)

I did a search on some Amazons .... without price restrictions.

Here's # 4:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-4-Gustav/dp/B0001TSWKU
http://www.amazon.de/Class-Lib-Symphony-James-Levine/dp/B0001TSWKU/

Used copies of # 6:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-6/dp/B00000E67Z/
http://www.amazon.de/Levine-Conducts-Mahlers-Symphony-No/dp/B00000E67Z/

New and used copies of # 7:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Song-Night/dp/B00000E68I/
http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphony-Song-Night-US/dp/B00000E68I/

Used copies of # 9:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B00000E682/
http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-US-Levine-Phs/dp/B00000E682/

Live performance of the Ninth:
http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonie-9-Levine/dp/B0002JZ2ZC/

[Sergeant Rock]

I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

But I do remember liking the moments at the end of the first movement- fast and powerful, how it should be, and the second movement starting off so slowly, as if acknowledging it has to bring itself back up after what just happened.

The slow final chorus is what I dislike too about the DG Bernstein. The lack of forward momentum spoils what should be a feeling of spiritual uplift. Until that point though I'm with him all the way. If not for the end, it would be my favorite version. The power of his first movement is devastating, the end of the development like a nuclear explosion that few other conductors equal. I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks for the research, Marc. I think I'll go for this Ninth: seems reasonable 

http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00000E682/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Sarge

[Renfield]

I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge

What do you think about his 2nd?

I'm intending to write overall comments on his cycle once I've heard the lot (up to the 6th right now), but I felt particularly strongly about his 2nd: specifically, that the orchestral part is among the best, and then he BLOWS it - caps! - as soon as the choir enters in the last movement.

[Sergeant Rock]

What do you think about his 2nd?

I'm intending to write overall comments on his cycle once I've heard the lot (up to the 6th right now), but I felt particularly strongly about his 2nd: specifically, that the orchestral part is among the best, and then he BLOWS it - caps! - as soon as the choir enters in the last movement.

One of my favorites. His first movement, while far more "controlled" is almost as powerful as Bernstein's. Of course, I'm never unaware that Maazel's in charge here, imposing his very strong will on the musicians and the music. But that's one reason I like it

The last time I listened my major complaint was the sound of the closing pages: not nearly as imposing as some recordings but his actual interpretation at this point I thought quite good. But I'll listen again and try to discover what it is that bothers you.

Sarge

[Renfield]

One of my favorites. His first movement, while far more "controlled" is almost as powerful as Bernstein's. Of course, I'm never unaware that Maazel's in charge here, imposing his very strong will on the musicians and the music. But that's one reason I like it

The last time I listened my major complaint was the sound of the closing pages: not nearly as imposing as some recordings but his actual interpretation at this point I thought quite good. But I'll listen again and try to discover what it is that bothers you.

Sarge

It could well be related to the sound, but on the whole I found the choral part of his finale the most unconvincing I've ever heard.

I will, though, make a proper write-up after I've gone through the others, possibly following (yet) another spin of that Tennstedt, too.


Edit: I mean literally unconvincing, not musically inconsistent, or equivalent. I was so bored I went to the bathroom for a moment, and coming out I caught, or was caught by, 'Bereite dich zu leben!', and momentarily thought I had found myself in a Nuremberg rally.

And when I react like this to my most favourite passage in the whole symphony, something is very wrong.

I will, however, listen to the 8th to cross-reference my assumptions about what that something is before commenting further.

[greg]

Ha! It's hard to say what my favourite Mahler 2nd is; but though I do admire Bernstein/NYPO DG a lot, and possibly Bernstein/NYPO Sony even more, I feel the recent live Tennstedt/LPO is a cut above, for the 'kitchen sink', emotional-onslaught approach to the work.


For other styles of M2, two modern ones that come to mind first and foremost are Gielen's, and Ivan Fischer's. Gielen is sparse, but extremely effective, and (to me) affecting, without ever over-stretching, expressively or orchestrally. Fischer is not dissimilarly poised, and he has the advantage of a tremendous recording, and an excellent choir. But he does indulge somewhat in terms of atmosphere - to great effect!

(As does Rattle, for the atmosphere bit, only his finale doesn't have nearly as much impact; and the recording is nowhere near as sharp.)


Of course, there's Klemperer, whose reading is one of those 'great edifices' of the age of recorded music, managing to power through the symphony without losing a single ounce of its cumulative impact; but there have been more human(e)ly affecting readings.

And I also remember hearing a live Walter on Music & Arts that, although noticeably rougher around the edges than his studio recording, has the most extraordinary rendition of the finale, matched only by the live Tennstedt in my book.

But I understand you're not interested in historical versions.


About Mehta/VPO: it's not bad, but I've heard better. I think that sums it up.

I remember Klemperer being a pretty decent one. I have that one (on LP), Jansons, Boulez live, Bernstein/NYPO/Sony, Tennstedt, Chailly, Bertini, Kubelik, Gielen, and Kaplan/London.

Most of them I've only heard once, but as I said, Jansons is still my favorite. Perfect tempos, perfect atmosphere that I've never heard equalled in that offstage orchestra part, excellent clarity, powerful drumroll section in the first movement, etc. Other conductors may be able to execute certain parts, but I think Jansons did the the work as a whole better than any I've heard.

(though keep in mind if I ever listened to one of those other 9 recordings again, it's possible my opinion could change) 

The slow final chorus is what I dislike too about the DG Bernstein. The lack of forward momentum spoils what should be a feeling of spiritual uplift. Until that point though I'm with him all the way. If not for the end, it would be my favorite version. The power of his first movement is devastating, the end of the development like a nuclear explosion that few other conductors equal. I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge

I could possibly be with you on that one... when I do revisit it, I'll get back to ya on that. 

[greg]

You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias? I just realized that all of my first Mahler recordings were ones that I still think are pretty good.
Anyone ever have a first recording, start liking the symphony, and then 10 recordings later, start thinking that the first recording they owned was awful?

[Renfield]

You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias? I just realized that all of my first Mahler recordings were ones that I still think are pretty good.
Anyone ever have a first recording, start liking the symphony, and then 10 recordings later, start thinking that the first recording they owned was awful?

It would make sense for there to be one.

After all, unless you've studied the score, you compare the second one you hear to your only prior exposure, the first one, and then likely appraise subsequent ones in its context as well, meaning you might find them lacking by virtue of simply not being it!

The closest I've myself come to rejecting a first recording when hearing others is Walter's Mahler 1st, which made a good enough impression on me to want to hear more, but when I heard Kubelik's, it blew me away on a totally different level.


Come to think of it, I haven't revisited that Walter since back then, so I may yet find in it things that are special, and unique it.

(In general, I haven't heard a Walter performance I didn't like, or didn't feel had something to add to my understanding of Mahler.)


And BTW, I'll gently insist that you probably should hear the Fischer, if you want atmosphere. It's really, really worth hearing. Also, the live Tennstedt and the studio Tennstedt are miles apart (and I say that being quite fond of the studio Tennstedt).

[jlaurson]

You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias?

You bet there is: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875

First Impressions and Shostakovich

[greg]

You bet there is: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875

First Impressions and Shostakovich

Lol, I've actually already read this article. 

It would make sense for there to be one.

After all, unless you've studied the score, you compare the second one you hear to your only prior exposure, the first one, and then likely appraise subsequent ones in its context as well, meaning you might find them lacking by virtue of simply not being it!

The closest I've myself come to rejecting a first recording when hearing others is Walter's Mahler 1st, which made a good enough impression on me to want to hear more, but when I heard Kubelik's, it blew me away on a totally different level.


Come to think of it, I haven't revisited that Walter since back then, so I may yet find in it things that are special, and unique it.

(In general, I haven't heard a Walter performance I didn't like, or didn't feel had something to add to my understanding of Mahler.)


And BTW, I'll gently insist that you probably should hear the Fischer, if you want atmosphere. It's really, really worth hearing. Also, the live Tennstedt and the studio Tennstedt are miles apart (and I say that being quite fond of the studio Tennstedt).

That's good to hear about the live Tennstedt. He has a way of bringing out certain things that can make his interpretations stand out, which I like.

Is the Fischer this one? I might listen tomorrow if it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEE5JbwCpXw&feature=related

[Renfield]

Is the Fischer this one? I might listen tomorrow if it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEE5JbwCpXw&feature=related

Yep.

Edit: But seemingly just the 1st movement.

Edit 2: A further small sample here - http://www.channelclassics.com/mahler-symphony-no-2.html

[greg]

Thanks for the link!

[greg]

Okay, so yesterday I relistened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony 2nd. I'm pretty close to agreeing completely with Sarge on this now.
I guess my opinion was shaped just by the last movement alone- which I just didn't care for. However, all of the others I found great. The sound isn't good, though. 

Listened to the links of the Fischer, and the sound there is excellent. Great atmosphere, but I just don't feel the fire.