Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[DavidW]

Yes Brian try 4, and also try Kindertotenlieder, despite the subject is beautiful and not over wrought.

[ibanezmonster]

There is no (or only a little) "overbearing angst and self-absorption" in the Fourth and the Ninth Symphonies. Symphonies 1 through 4 are the "Wunderhorn" Symphonies; drawing on themes from that (non-) cycle*... Three is a strange beast for a newcomer.... though the last movement has what it takes to squeeze tears from a stone. Second is grand, bordering pompous... the First tempestuous, wild; the Fourth (relatively) serene.

(* The only Song Cycle Mahler declared a cycle and wanted it performed as such are the Kindertotenlieder.)

The 4th yes, but the 9th?... 

[Brian]

Mueller Brachmann is really fine. A different style baritone; somber... Reminds me of Fischer-Dieskau minus the manneredness.

Yes, but his "cuckoo" sound effects brought a smile to the face, too. I didn't miss Gerhaher, which was a very good thing.

Thanks for the further comments, gents! Carry on discussing

[DavidRoss]

What symphony should I tackle next?

4

& DLVDE

[DavidRoss]

"Every time a hammer blow of fate sounds, an angel expediently surrenders to the darkness that resides in every soul."

Priceless.

[klingsor]

I just watched Claudio Abbado conduct Das Lied von der Erde, Berlin Phil, Jonas Kaufmann and Anne Sophie von Otter. A magnificent performance. Kaufmann sings like a man possessed (in a good way). He has to reach notes and conjure up so much vocal power during the first song that I was staggered by his artistry, which also includes a  palpable sense of introspection when called for. Beautiful, poetic singing. If Van Otter does not seem to have the vocal heft for this work, she more than makes up for it in artistry as well--intelligent word coloring and deep musicality at all times. She never-- at least in a video recording--seems overpowered by the orchestra, except at a couple of points where Mahler simply drowns out any soloist. And the orchestra, well it's in top form.

For some reason, Abbado avoided this work until now. I read somewhere that he had 'issues' with it, and I'd like to know what they were. I am guessing it has to do with the theme of the piece: the transitory nature of all life, including human, expressed through a profound love for the Earth and nature. Since he is now an old man who has suffered some serious health problems, I am guessing Abbado has turned to Das Lied finally because he may feel there won't be a lot of time left in the future.

I hope this performance is issued on DVD, so others can see it.

[DavidRoss]

I just watched Claudio Abbado conduct Das Lied von der Erde, Berlin Phil, Jonas Kaufmann and Anne Sophie von Otter.

So was that this: http://www.myscreenevent.com/index.php?id=94 ? An interesting phenomenon.  Glyndebourne's Die Meistersinger is due up in June.

[klingsor]

So was that this: http://www.myscreenevent.com/index.php?id=94 ? An interesting phenomenon.  Glyndebourne's Die Meistersinger is due up in June.

Yes that is it. I have not yet heard the 10th Adagio. Anyone can pm me if they want links do download the video

[knight66]

I have been trying for years to get hold of Mahler Das Lied with Jessye Norman and Jon Vickers, Colin Davis conducting. It was not greatly admired as Vickers, even 30 years ago, was clearly past his best. I had it on a Phillips LP disposed of 25 years ago; but have now run it to earth second hand. The DG/Universal site supposedly had it available to download, but no dice, nothing to click to make it happen.

It is all round better than I had recalled. Vickers does fairly well in the first song, apart from being unable to articulate the grace notes, which he fudges. But he achieves the epic quality it needs and the doom laden atmosphere is well evoked. In the third, Davis is much too fast and Vickers wild. The fifth song is rather better paced allowing Vickers the verbal acuity he was famous for. But he does suddenly blast a couple of phrases at you. Ten years earlier, but then Norman would not have been his partner.

This was Norman's first take on the work, I have long enjoyed her plushness in the much later Levine version. Here in the second song, 'The Lonely One in Autumn', Davis produces a chilly, remote atmosphere. In the forth, there is a sensible speed for the young men on their horses and a lot of detail laid out both in the orchestra and by Norman. The final song is very long at 35 minutes, it holds together and the LSO players are characterful, filling out the plangent woodwind phrasing, Davis encourages some rasping brass chords. Despite it being a song symphony, the long orchestral passage half way through that last song is often my favourite part and Davis encompases a whole symphony in the passage. Mystery and regret heavily emphesised. It is moving and Norman's voice fits the piece as well as any, solemn, reflective, burnished.

The sound is excellent and close and detailed. I think the disc has been underrated, not perfect, but certainly worth looking out for.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

The sound is excellent and close and detailed. I think the disc has been underrated, not perfect, but certainly worth looking out for.
Mike

Thanks for the review, Mike. Sounds interesting. I found a used copy for a decent price.

Sarge

[knight66]

Do let me know what you think....I am going through that last song yet again. It almost becomes like the narcotic Tristan that Carlos Kleiber produced.

Mike

[klingsor]

Never cared  for Vickers's voice, but here it is....

[asin]B0000040W8[/asin]

[eyeresist]

Just saw seven songs excerpted from Des Knaben Wunderhorn by Hanno Muller-Brachmann, LPO, Jurowski. ... The lack of overbearing angst and self-absorption reminded me of snatches of Symphony 1 but no other Mahler symphony I've heard so far. Terrific stuff; I could have easily listened to the whole song cycle. Is this the Mahler breakthrough I'm looking for? What symphony should I tackle next?

As mentioned, the 4th. I also recommend the 7th, my own favourite, though the finale doesn't always succeed. You should also hear the 2nd, "Resurrection"; there's some angst in it, but also a great diversity of delightful music, and a powerful choral ending.

[jlaurson]

As mentioned, the 4th. I also recommend the 7th, my own favourite, though the finale doesn't always succeed. You should also hear the 2nd, "Resurrection"; there's some angst in it, but also a great diversity of delightful music, and a powerful choral ending.

How is the 7th not brimming with "overbearing angst and self-absorption"? The Sixth is my favorite, by some measure, but I'd never recommend it after what he said. Never mind that the 7th is probably the hardest to make sense of, of the whole lot. (Even if your relationship with it proves to be an exception.)

[eyeresist]

How is the 7th not brimming with "overbearing angst and self-absorption"? The Sixth is my favorite, by some measure, but I'd never recommend it after what he said. Never mind that the 7th is probably the hardest to make sense of, of the whole lot. (Even if your relationship with it proves to be an exception.)

I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?)

OTOH, the 9th, which you recommended, is to me a great ennervation in four acts - I have to be in the right mood to hear it, and it usually leaves me in a rather grey and unhappy mood. I'm listening to the last minutes of the Bertini recording right now, just to make sure of my reaction - I indeed remembered correctly.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?

I think I agree. The 7th is a beautiful return to the soundworld of the Wunderhorn symphonies by someone now too old to be so innocent, which adds the dark colouring. I find it enchanting. And the opening movement is one of the best things Mahler ever did.

[jlaurson]

I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?)

You are joking*, right?  No, I don't think that's the problem. 

OTOH, the 9th, which you recommended, is to me a great ennervation in four acts ...

I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.



*Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado CSO, Abbado Lucerne, Boulez, Sinopoli, Gielen, Rattle, MTT SFSO, MTT London, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Barenboim, Inbal, Schwarz, Klemperer, Chailly, Zinman, Haitink Christmas, Jansons Oslo, Jansons BRSO, Neumann Leipzig, Barbirolli BBC, N.Jaervi Hague, Scherchen, Piano 4H

[eyeresist]

You are joking*, right?  No, I don't think that's the problem. 

*Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado CSO, Abbado Lucerne, Boulez, Sinopoli, Gielen, Rattle, MTT SFSO, MTT London, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Barenboim, Inbal, Schwarz, Klemperer, Chailly, Zinman, Haitink Christmas, Jansons Oslo, Jansons BRSO, Neumann Leipzig, Barbirolli BBC, N.Jaervi Hague, Scherchen, Piano 4H

I was thinking in particular of late Bernstein, who tended to work against practically everything he performed (IMVVHO).
I was reading through the Third Ear guide on this symphony last night: the reviewer humourously reported that Klemp was in this case so slow that collectors were given the impression their turntables were faulty!  The reviewer was interesting on the question of tempo relationships in this symphony, which he said were the great interpretive problem.  He was surprisingly harsh on Abbado CSO for this reason (his later recs were NA at the time of review), but OTOH gave Rattle far too much credit for "innovation".
I have Tennstedt, Masur Leigzig, Bertini, Bernstein Sony, plus a couple of lesser names I don't recall (had the Barbirolli but junked it). The one that converted me, and to which I usually return, is Tennstedt. (Be warned, his horn in the first movement does have intonation problems.)

I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.

Hmm... I've read in more than one place about the "sublimity" of this movement, but it's just not there for me. Honestly, I would recommend the 6th above the 9th in this matter, as it is at least more colourful and exciting (another one to argue about!).

[kishnevi]

I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.

Try Zinman's recording: he treats the Adagio not as a fading of the light into eternal night (which is how some conductors seem to view it), but as a climb into serenity, sort of the soul's entrance into Heaven and the Light that never fades. 

The middle movements, no matter who the conductor is, sound rather like a German oompah band that is playing some waltzes after having rather too much of that gutes Bier.     Yet Mahler made it all work together, somehow.

As for the Seventh, I agree that's a relatively optimistic work,  in part because of the spell worked first by the Andante amoroso and then  by the finale on the rest of it: all the discomforts and possible horrors dissolve in an explosion of sunlight, just a like a good fairy tale.

[ibanezmonster]

I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.

To me it's like trying to accept the death of the universe and all life. Like having it in your hand and trying to accept that it will slip away, but you never come to terms with it and it slips away anyways.

That's why I find it to be the most painful music in the world. When I listen to Pettersson, it's like living in prison, but accepting it as normal. When I listen to Shostakovich, it's like living in a Communist prison, but making fun of the officials in private. They're both dark, but have some sort of feeling of acceptance in their music. With Mahler's 9th, it sounds like he's constantly putting up a fight for something "higher", but never turns it into reality. The "acceptance" part is nothing like Bruckner- as we go to sleep, we may fight trying to go to sleep all we want, but eventually we succumb to it. In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.