Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Amfortas]

I have the recent Mahler 7 with Berlin and Rattle upped here in good audio:

http://www.4shared.com/folder/zSsxySNe/Mahler_7_-_BPO_Rattle__Aug_201.html

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks! I'll download the first movement (one of my Mahlerian favourites) and see what Rattle and the BPO do with it...

[ibanezmonster]

Mahler was a very literary man, who liked his Shakespeare, Goethe, Jean Paul and Dostoevsky. In their length and variety, his symphonies are a bit novel-like. So I'd say - a book.

My bad... I guess I didn't phrase the question right.
I meant- what movie feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what book feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what video game feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what artwork feels the same as a Mahler symphony?

But are the authors he was into write books that feel somewhat Mahlerian? I don't think I've read Goethe or Jean Paul, but what I've read by Shakespeare and Dostoevsky, they don't feel Mahlerian. Or is there nothing comparable in any medium to his music? (hopefully not)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The question behind your question is - what is the Mahlerian experience? If you answer that, we can look if this experience can be/has ever been reproduced in another medium...

[Amfortas]

My bad... I guess I didn't phrase the question right.
I meant- what movie feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what book feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what video game feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what artwork feels the same as a Mahler symphony?

But are the authors he was into write books that feel somewhat Mahlerian? I don't think I've read Goethe or Jean Paul, but what I've read by Shakespeare and Dostoevsky, they don't feel Mahlerian. Or is there nothing comparable in any medium to his music? (hopefully not)

I don't think there is any real analog to Mahler's music. It's one reason why many of us love his work, it seem wholly original, even if we can point to influences within it. To me, his music really creates its own world.

[ibanezmonster]

The question behind your question is - what is the Mahlerian experience? If you answer that, we can look if this experience can be/has ever been reproduced in another medium...

I could give an attempt to try to define that, but words really wouldn't be good enough.
Hmm... here'a lousy attempt:
-epic
-profoundly expressive
-but not dark/horror-ish, as many things tend to be
-in touch with nature, but at the same time, complex


kind vague, and can only really be understood through experience...

The only things that come somewhat close in each medium that I can think of:
-books- Ayn Rand's Anthem? (but it's too short)
-games- FF7
-art- can't think of anything
-film- Kurosawa's Ran

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I could give an attempt to try to define that, but words really wouldn't be good enough.
Hmm... here'a lousy attempt:
-epic
-profoundly expressive
-but not dark/horror-ish, as many things tend to be
-in touch with nature, but at the same time, complex


kind vague, and can only really be understood through experience...

The only things that come somewhat close in each medium that I can think of:
-books- Ayn Rand's Anthem? (but it's too short)
-games- FF7
-art- can't think of anything
-film- Kurosawa's Ran

I think, as Amfortas says, that no artist in another medium is or has been like Gustav Mahler. But I think that aspects of his work do find some sort of equivalent in poetry (Paul Celan, harrowingness), fiction (Kafka, absurdity; Dostoevsky, blackness, emotion, volubility; Tolkien (?), in the weird imagination and the epic quality)... I could go on, but I won't. Mahler is Mahler.

[ibanezmonster]

I think, as Amfortas says, that no artist in another medium is or has been like Gustav Mahler. But I think that aspects of his work do find some sort of equivalent in poetry (Paul Celan, harrowingness), fiction (Kafka, absurdity; Dostoevsky, blackness, emotion, volubility; Tolkien (?), in the weird imagination and the epic quality)... I could go on, but I won't. Mahler is Mahler.

Good suggestions. Actually, Tolkien is another I would have listed if I thought of it. Dostoevsky to me seems very comparable to Shostakovich. I have not read Kafka yet, and Celan I've never heard of before. Yeah, stuff that shares similarities is about as close as you'll get, I suppose.

[Renfield]

I definitely have an answer to 'game' - Planescape: Torment. This really is extremely close to Mahler's world.

Books? Bukowski often makes me think of Mahler, not just because he liked him too.

Hemingway too, in his more sombre moments (Farewell to Arms), and of course Rückert (I'd reckon - haven't read him beyond the lieder), and many of Shakespeares' introspective passages (esp. sonnets). Dostoyevski? Not so much. But maybe Poe.


Art? Klimt is very aptly used for all those Mahler album covers, IMO, and not just because of any historical, or personal relation.

Also Munch, Hammershøi, and Gerhard Richter's depictions of death, off the top of my head,  relate to Mahler thematically.


Movies? You've got me there.

I simply don't have cinephile lore reaching into the period where I might expect to find Mahler-esque cinema, though modern art-cinema like - odd example that comes to mind - 'The Counterfeiters' (Die Fälscher carries the late Mahler tragic, dark, ironic edge.

Still, I openly admit to being a clueless 'dipper-in' about cinema, compared to people who really care about it.

Maybe Corey might have an idea?

[ibanezmonster]

I definitely have an answer to 'game' - Planescape: Torment. This really is extremely close to Mahler's world.

Books? Bukowski often makes me think of Mahler, not just because he liked him too.

Hemingway too, in his more sombre moments (Farewell to Arms), and of course Rückert (I'd reckon - haven't read him beyond the lieder), and many of Shakespeares' introspective passages (esp. sonnets). Dostoyevski? Not so much. But maybe Poe.


Art? Klimt is very aptly used for all those Mahler album covers, IMO, and not just because of any historical, or personal relation.

Also Munch, Hammershøi, and Gerhard Richter's depictions of death, off the top of my head,  relate to Mahler thematically.


Movies? You've got me there.

I simply don't have cinephile lore reaching into the period where I might expect to find Mahler-esque cinema, though modern art-cinema like - odd example that comes to mind - 'The Counterfeiters' (Die Fälscher carries the late Mahler tragic, dark, ironic edge.

Still, I openly admit to being a clueless 'dipper-in' about cinema, compared to people who really care about it.

Maybe Corey might have an idea?

Wow, good stuff here. Planescape:Torment I will play one day. I played the first 10 minutes of OgreBattle 64, and I wonder just how that may turn out  .

Farewell to Arms I read when I was in middle school, but let's just say I just failed at "getting" it. That was so long ago- let's just pretend I never read it. 

Klimt is a good mention (this was the guy whose artwork was in Elfen Lied, after all). Speaking of anime, there are countless I could think of worthy of mentioning, but almost all have a setting completely alien to Mahler's world. Monster takes place in Germany, and is very much intriguing and epic, but lacks the emotional touch of Mahler. If I had to choose what resembles his emotional touch in any format other than music, I'd go with Mahou Shoujo Madoka- precisely the last few episodes. That's like the visual depiction of the Adagio of the 9th right there! 

[ibanezmonster]

I think there is a certain cadence that should be called the "Mahler cadence."


(key of C maj)
Treble
E        D C

Bass
F
B           E
D           G
G           C

aka V7add6-V7-I

(even my little brother recognized it). His favorite music right now, if he had to choose, would be the 7th or 8th symphony, but he's not completely familiar with all of his stuff yet. 

[kishnevi]

Farewell to Arms I read when I was in middle school, but let's just say I just failed at "getting" it. That was so long ago- let's just pretend I never read it. 

Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 

And I don't think FtA would be the most Mahler like work--if you were going to pick Hemingway, I'd go for The Old Man and the Sea or Death in the Afternoon.

[ibanezmonster]

Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 

Well, I chose to read it. We all had to read books and take tests and get a certain amount of points by the end of each semester. I don't remember why I chose it, but I bet it was because it had a lot of points. 

[Renfield]

Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 

And I don't think FtA would be the most Mahler like work--if you were going to pick Hemingway, I'd go for The Old Man and the Sea or Death in the Afternoon.

Yeah, by no means was I going for 'most Mahler-like Hemingway'. Just an example of Hemingway 'Mahlering', as it were.

[Sergeant Rock]

...my little brother....His favorite music right now, if he had to choose, would be the 7th or 8th symphony

Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it 


Sarge

[Renfield]

Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it 


Sarge

They're just in denial.

For what it's worth, the 8th was within the first three Mahler symphonies I came to love - the last one (of the nine) being the 3rd.

[Sergeant Rock]

...the last one (of the nine) being the 3rd.

The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.

Sarge

[Renfield]

The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.

Sarge

I guess I should be glad I managed a somewhat shorter incubation period!

[ibanezmonster]

Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it 


Sarge

Yeah, I like it, too, but am not exceptionally crazy about it- my least favorite out of all of them. Having 7 and 8 as favorites is like having the two most difficult symphonies to appreciate/understand that he's written. I told him that a lot of people have a hard time understanding the 7th, but he said, "What's there to understand? It's just music!" 

[jlaurson]

Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it 
Sarge

The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.
Sarge

I told [my little brother] that a lot of people have a hard time understanding the 7th, but he said, "What's there to understand? It's just music!"

I find that the dislike of the 8th among Mahlerites is to some very considerable degree affected; it's part of the 'good tone' to not like the 8th, "that tearjerker" of a symphony. Perhaps because they are afraid of association with the seemingly juvenile.
But it's hardly a difficult-to-understand Symphony (on a superficial level; on a deeper level one ought perhaps know Faust II as well as Mahler did himself, which was very nearly by heart). And the finale is simply awesome... as is the fact that it's gargantuan and big and loud and this and that. Every conductor can (if so inclined) feel like a kid again. (Not that those are the performances with the best results, of course.)

The 3rd, now... yes. Toughest nut, save for the 7th.

Greg's little brother seems to have the best answer to it... a beautiful answer. A lot like Yannick N-S's (musical) answer, actually.