Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[mc ukrneal]

No, I'm not saying Bertini emphasises darkness and grit (I don't think anyone who'd actually heard his set would say that), but these elements are nonetheless present.

Errr, that's what I was saying.

[eyeresist]

Ah, but there isn't as much darkness and grit as you think there is. Mahler doesn't have to be played this way and I am generally happier with it when the darkness doesn't overwhelm the piece. Thus, Bertini is not one you will enjoy.

^ You seem to be saying that Bertini lets darkness etc overwhelm his Mahler performances.

[mc ukrneal]

^ You seem to be saying that Bertini lets darkness etc overwhelm his Mahler performances.

What I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.

[eyeresist]

What I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.

Ok, I think the confusion was because you didn't realise Scots John was merely being sarcastic at my expense I would assume that he doesn't like too much gritttttttt, given his liking of Inbal. How about a word from the man himself?

[mahler10th]

What I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.

WTF? I didn't say there was darkness and grit in Mahlers symphonies.
Someone else said that, and I asked where, in Bertinis output, it was.   I do not and have never advocated 'darkness and grit' with Mahler.  Well...maybe some darkness!     Someone else used these descriptive attributes.  I questioned their authenticity in Bertinis Mahler and made an immature, weak effort at being sarcastic on the matter.  I deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

'Darkness and grit'  in particular the 'grit' bit are not at all what I like to hear in Mahler. 

[eyeresist]

I deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

Thanks, but no apology is necessary. It's all part of the friendly rough-and-tumble of GMG. 

[mc ukrneal]

WTF? I didn't say there was darkness and grit in Mahlers symphonies.
Someone else said that, and I asked where, in Bertinis output, it was.   I do not and have never advocated 'darkness and grit' with Mahler.  Well...maybe some darkness!     Someone else used these descriptive attributes.  I questioned their authenticity in Bertinis Mahler and made an immature, weak effort at being sarcastic on the matter.  I deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

'Darkness and grit'  in particular the 'grit' bit are not at all what I like to hear in Mahler. 

Sorry. Your posts confuse me sometimes. I have difficulty figuring out when you are being funny, serious, sarcastic, etc. Nevertheless, I always enjoy your posts.

[DavidRoss]

My latest Mahler purchases arrived in yesterday's mail. With our older son visiting for a few days, I've chosen to spend my time otherwise than giving them a proper hearing, but I'm very much looking forward to giving them a go on the "serious" hi fi rig (as soon as I finish remodeling my wife's studio and get her furnishings out of the music room!):



I hear plenty of darkness in Mahler's symphonies, like the brooding, implacable, martial music of the 6th. I also hear his music as deeply authentic and not sentimental (in the pejorative sense used in relation to the arts) and that seems like "grit" to me (in the sense Charles Portis used it in True Grit). "Grit" is what's needed when the low strings dig in after nature's awakening in the 1st. That sort of grit is usually found under conductors with an ear sensitive to Mahler's brilliant orchestration who clarify the "chamber-music-like" texture of his polyphony instead of drowning it in a flood of syrupy sound.

Edit: corrected a glaring typo!

[eyeresist]

I also hear his music as deeply authentic and not sentimental (in the pejorative sense used in relation to the arts)

I think there is sentiment in this sense in Mahler, but it's included knowingly, in the same way he uses brash marches and folksy dances.

Currently contemplating getting Maazel's Mahler....

[DavidRoss]

I think there is sentiment in this sense in Mahler, but it's included knowingly, in the same way he uses brash marches and folksy dances.

Currently contemplating getting Maazel's Mahler....

Sentiment ≠ sentimentality.

[Augustine]

The hardest Mahler symphony for me to come to terms with, apart from the 8th, was the 6th and I have finally found the ultimate Mahler 6th, in my opinion which features Sir Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. It's absolutely a savagely beautiful performance. It literally spent a week in my car. I had to download it from Amazon but did find a hard copy on CD. I even reviewed it there. It's a much slower pace than people might be used to but it yields many treasures from beginning to end.

[ibanezmonster]

Kind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.

[eyeresist]

Kind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.

Sadly, it is possible to wear out a piece of music by overuse. There are a number of pieces I only listen to occasionally for just this reason. I'd suggest giving the piece a rest for a few months, or even a few years. Then maybe return with a recording you don't currently know.

In the meantime, there's always the finale of the 3rd

[Lilas Pastia]

Sadly, it is possible to wear out a piece of music by overuse. There are a number of pieces I only listen to occasionally for just this reason. I'd suggest giving the piece a rest for a few months, or even a few years

Absolutely true. Harvested fields must lie fallow for a while, otherwise the soil will stop yielding the necessary nutrients. I overused works such as Turandot (many years ago my GMG moniker was Calaf ), Parsifal or Schubert's Unfinished. I outgrew the Schubert 8th famine and can now listen to it any time for the great masterpiece it is. But I know I was many years without being able to listen to it.

[madaboutmahler]

Kind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.

The 9th is a piece I rarely listen to (well, at least with the outer movements). It is musical heaven to me, and my favourite piece (along with M6). I just can't listen to it too often, the effect it has on me cannot be given too often and I know that. But, when I do listen to it, which is probably around 2 - 4 times in a year, the emotional experience really is overwhelming and so incredibly heavenly and powerful.  0:)

[eyeresist]

I'm not taking part in the Mahler 1 thread, but over the weekend I conducted my own little survey of all the recordings in my collection (excepting Bernstein's NY, and Simonov from that old Brilliant box). I listened to some of the recordings twice for comparison purposes, but I confess I didn't always listen to all of the finale - it is IMO the least interesting of the four movements. Anyway, the results quite surprised me!

The top two were quite clear:

BERTINI
I'd previously not much bothered with this, but paying full attention I realised what I'd missed. This is the most "characteristic" of all the performances. The instruments sound fruitcake-rich and really invested in the piece, and Bertini's rubato and tempo changes show he's really thought about the structure of the piece as a whole. The ambience of the sound is also terrific.

INBAL
I've previously been unkind to Inbal's Mahler in this thread, but at least in this case I was in error. The sound isn't quite as miraculous as Bertini's, and the playing doesn't have the folksy-ness of the Koln orchestra, but otherwise this is top notch, a well played and really committed interpretation.

And the rest:

NANUT
An obscure one and a sentimental favourite. The sound is older than Inbal's and the interpretation isn't quite as deep, but the Llubjana orchestra are playing at their best, and it's a thoroughly satisfying performance.

WALTER 1 & 2
There's little difference between Walter's two recordings in the Sony set, except for stereo separation in the later one. Interestingly, he is swifter than most in all movements except the third, in which his timings are a minute longer than the norm. These are fine performances but I don't think Walter has anything special to say about this music. In modern sound he might be above Nanut, but this grey, ungratifying historical sound really can't compete for colour or detail.

BERNSTEIN
My chief reaction here was one of disappointment. Bernstein and the Concertgebouw produce a proficient recording of a top international standard, but I can't help feeling they think the music is second-rate. The playing doesn't have the commitment of the above recordings, and many of Bernstein's rubati and tempo changes seem pro forma, rather than part of an overall vision of the work. I expected him to wring some extra grotesquerie out of the third movement, but no.

TENNSTEDT
Another disappointment. First thing to mention is the terrible shrill sound. Lowering the treble response helps, but then you lose detail. The sound is also grey and fairly distant. And this is the remaster! Was the original actually worse? The performance itself is capable, but doesn't say anything special about the music.

RATTLE
Rattle has good sound, and at first his distinctive touches highlight unnoticed details and make the music sound fresh, although somewhat fragmented. But cumulatively the effect is artificial, especially with the last movement, which is just infuriating in its waywardness. It's a very interesting recording as far as interpretation goes, but ultimately not pleasurable.


So there you have it! I look forward to seeing how my own assessment compares with the result of the poll.

[Brian]

Cross-post



First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25), which makes it frustrating rather than satisfying that Stenz does such a good job maintaining his tempo. The minuet is speedy and outbursty too, but the posthorn solos are utterly wonderful, 'O Mensch' very atmospheric, and the final movement well put-together - until the last chord, the energy and power of which decrease rather than increase as it is sustained. So close! But the search for a great Mahler 3 in great sound on Naxos Music Library continues.

[madaboutmahler]

Thanks for posting your thoughts on that one, Brian. I'm very interested in Stenz's Mahler!

And thanks, Eye, for posting those thoughts, very interesting! We'll see!

[Sammy]

Cross-post



First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25), which makes it frustrating rather than satisfying that Stenz does such a good job maintaining his tempo. The minuet is speedy and outbursty too, but the posthorn solos are utterly wonderful, 'O Mensch' very atmospheric, and the final movement well put-together - until the last chord, the energy and power of which decrease rather than increase as it is sustained. So close! But the search for a great Mahler 3 in great sound on Naxos Music Library continues.

Interesting.  One of our MusicWeb comrades, John Quinn, reviewed the recording and considered it a "tremendous performance".  I'll give it a spin on NML.

[DavidRoss]

I've heard Stenz's 1st, 3rd, 4th, & 5th. Jens ranks the 5th among his top choices. I thought it was good, but not extraordinary. (I'm not sure there is an extraordinary 5th, excepting Lenny's DGG disc with the WP ... and maybe Barshai.)  All of Stenz's Mahler symphony recordings have been good, especially the 4th, with Christiane Oelze doing a fine job (even if a bit loud at times), and IIRC the 1st.  It seems that everyone is turning out a good Mahler cycle these days. Recordings that would have been top choices a decade or two ago now get released faster than we can keep up with them!

I've flagged the cycle as one I'm likely to buy once it's complete and boxed, as long as the quality remains consistently high, but so far none of the individual issues have seemed singular enough to compel purchase. Taken as a set, however, Stenz is on track to produce a great one.