Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[madaboutmahler]

Will be interested to hear what you think, Brian. I'm quite willing to give Alsop's Mahler a chance....

[Lilas Pastia]

I'm curious to know which five you've listened to.  If you read below you'll see which three I like and which one I loathe, which leaves five I find mediocre (but two of those five Jens seems to like).    Part of the problems you refer to may be in the venue--a lot of people seem to think the Barbican is not a good place to record in.  The Eighth was recorded in St. Paul's Cathedral, and the reverb is unmistakeable, especially in the concluding moments of each part

I thought I had five of them, it's actually four (1, 3, 5 and 9). Unless I have another one I can't trace at the moment. I really should start a catalogue of my collection...

The latest I listened to was the 9th, sometime last spring. I see I have placed it toward the end among my M9s (21 out of 22 to be precise).

[kishnevi]

I thought I had five of them, it's actually four (1, 3, 5 and 9). Unless I have another one I can't trace at the moment. I really should start a catalogue of my collection...

The latest I listened to was the 9th, sometime last spring. I see I have placed it toward the end among my M9s (21 out of 22 to be precise).

Okay,  that's two of the three I like, so I won't  press the matter further.  But I have to ask you who number 1 and number 22 are on your list.  (And if you've heard Zinman's, I'm curious to know what you think of it.)

[mahler10th]

Bonjour.   
When I first joined GMG I had the moniker "mahler10th" instead of Scots John.  This was because Mahlers 10th (Adagio) was the only music that brought me to tears.  Here's a link to a discography of Mahler 10ths.  I only ever listen to the adagio, I am not interested in 'realizations'. 

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/symph10.html

It is in French, but there are links to discographies of all his symphonies.

[Lilas Pastia]

Okay,  that's two of the three I like, so I won't  press the matter further.  But I have to ask you who number 1 and number 22 are on your list.  (And if you've heard Zinman's, I'm curious to know what you think of it.)

Numbers are just that. I'll give you 1-5 and 18-22:

Walter, Columbia Symphony
Barbirolli, BPO
Maderna, BBC Symphony
Karajan I
Karajan II
(...)
Salonen, Philharmonia O.
Rosbaud, SWF O.
Svetlanov
Gergiev
Mitropoulos NYPO

Another 10 await my good will, but after having listened to 22 versions in about 8 months, I'll take my time to return to it.

Edit: I haven't heard Zinman, nor any of his Mahlers. Should I ?

[kishnevi]

Numbers are just that. I'll give you 1-5 and 18-22:

Walter, Columbia Symphony
Barbirolli, BPO
Maderna, BBC Symphony
Karajan I
Karajan II
(...)
Salonen, Philharmonia O.
Rosbaud, SWF O.
Svetlanov
Gergiev
Mitropoulos NYPO

Another 10 await my good will, but after having listened to 22 versions in about 8 months, I'll take my time to return to it.

Edit: I haven't heard Zinman, nor any of his Mahlers. Should I ?

Last question first--Zinman's Ninth is my favorite recording of the symphony, mainly because the last movement is taken as a long serene ascent to Heaven.  No emotional angst for the boys from Zurich!

My second favorite is Levine/Munich Phil., who goes for the angst route.  So you see I like both approaches. 

Maderna comes close behind those two, and if you like Maderna, I think you'll like Zinman.  But the Bruno Walter recording--that one's pretty fresh in my memory, since I played it recently.  And it may interest you (or at least amuse you) to see why it's not my favorite.  Here's what I posted in the WAYLT thread.

Mahler Symphony No. 9  Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra 1961 
From the Sony "Bruno Walter conducts Mahler" budget box

First listen to this performance.  Sound is an obvious improvement for the famous 1938 recording;  outer movements are rich and burnished in tone;  inner movements are unfortunately too coherent (I like the second and third movements to sound as if the orchestra is teetering on the edge of falling apart,  the aural equivalent of a gyroscope losing its balance).  Last movement is decent, but too brisk for my taste;  the speed means all the tension is lost (timing is 21:04).   Certainly no emotional descent into the abyss that some conductors make of this movement, nor the gradual ascent to the celestial spheres that I hear in, for example, Zinman's recording--more the feeling of simply coming home from work, taking a nice cold drink and relaxing on the porch as you watch the sun set over the neighboring woods.

I'd also say Zinman's Third is worth hearing.  The rest of his cycle is rather variable, and you may or may not like any one of the others.  The only one from his set I don't like is the Tenth, which he recorded in Carpenter's version.  And not having any other recording of the Carpenter version to compare it to,  I can't say if it's Zinman's fault or Carpenter's.  (Is there another recording of Carpenter's version? I remember reading somewhere there is not.)

Another Ninth you might find of interest but which no one seems to ever mention here  is Gilbert/Stockholm.  It was his last recording with them before he took over the NYPO.  (The recording is on BIS.)  No trails blazed but very solid work all around.

[Scarpia]

I previously had the Bernstein/NYPO/CBS set of Mahler symphonies.

[asin]B0000589BP[/asin]

which, when it was released, was claimed to be an improved remastering job.  I thought it was dreary.

But recently I've picked up this one:

[asin]B005SJIP1E[/asin]

This appears to be a bargain issue of the "Carnegie Hall Edition," where for the first time they went back to the original session tapes.   I've only listened to the 5th symphony, but Wow!  This is one of the rare instances where a remix changed my view of the recordings in a basic way.  On another note, astonishing that CBS/Sony managed to produce such poor sound for their previous issues when the source material sounded this good.  I wonder how much other horrid-sounding Columbia material could be improved.  Szell?

[DavidW]

That is just a reissue of the Carnegie Hall edition of 2009 right?  The only changes being a lower price point, and a disingenuous picture of Bernstein as an old man right?  That cover art is highly misleading, my initial impression was that this was the middle cycle, on dvd, finally released on cd.  But no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth. 

I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.

[Scarpia]

But no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth. 

I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.

After hearing this edition, I no longer think Bernstein's 60's Maher is overhyped.  I have the DG cycle as well, but I'm afraid the older Bernstein was more self-indulgent than sage.

[DavidRoss]

Welcome back, Scarps!

Guess now I'll have to look into a remastered remastered Lenny/NYPO cycle, even though I already have the older one, and even though--along with DaveW--I prefer his DGG cycle

[Sergeant Rock]

But no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth.

Yeah, he was barely out of knee pants, a mere stripling of 42 to 50 years old when he recorded this first cycle 

I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.

I like both but prefer the Sony 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

Welcome back, Scarps!

Guess now I'll have to look into a remastered remastered Lenny/NYPO cycle, even though I already have the older one, and even though--along with DaveW--I prefer his DGG cycle

Thanks.

I can't do an A/B comparison with the older one, which I've already sold off.  But I've uploaded a flac sample from the new one, which you can use to judge whether the improvement justifies the $20 that the set costs.  Anyone who wants to hear it can PM me and I will provide a link.


The new packaging is cute, with an album cover replica for each CD and a brief booklet.

[DavidRoss]

Thanks, Scarps--for $20 I once would have just bought the thing, but I'm relatively poor these days and already burdened my groaning shelves with 2 Mahler cycle purchases in the past month, so hearing some of it first in good sound seems a good idea.

[DavidW]

I've heard both masterings back to back, me and Dark Angel thought that the sound quality is about the same.  Daverz and LeoK thought otherwise.  At the time MI had not heard the newer, but I think he now has and is on board with Daverz and LeoK?  We should totally do a poll!

Sound quality wise I've heard better from that same decade too, but it's not bad by any means.  But if sound quality is what you want all of the modern cycles would run circles around that 60s era Columbia cycle for detail, transparency, acoustics and dynamics.

Where do you lean Sarge on the masterings?

I'm fine with the Mahler, but I wish that Lenny's Columbia Sibelius cycle was shown as much love in remasterings (if it is even in print anymore).

[DavidRoss]

I'm fine with the Mahler, but I wish that Lenny's Columbia Sibelius cycle was shown as much love in remasterings (if it is even in print anymore).

Yeah!
But Sibelius is still far out of the mainstream, whereas Mahler now owns it. (His time has come, indeed!)

[Sergeant Rock]

Where do you lean Sarge on the masterings?

No opinion yet. I only own this one and haven't heard any other masterings:



After reading Scarpia's post, I ordered the new box (it's so cheap, I thought, what the hell, why not?). Should have it early next week.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

No opinion yet. I only own this one and haven't heard any other masterings:



After reading Scarpia's post, I ordered the new box (it's so cheap, I thought, what the hell, why not?). Should have it early next week.

Sarge

I hope it will turn out to be money well spent.  I don't think the fact that I am listening to the new set on my B&W Nautilus's instead of those Dell computer speakers had any influence on my judgement.  (Just kidding!)

In any case, I am going by memory, anyone who wants to compare can PM me and download the sample (M5, 1st movement).

[DavidRoss]

I don't think the fact that I am listening to the new set on my B&W Nautilus's instead of those Dell computer speakers had any influence on my judgement.  (Just kidding!)

[DavidRoss]

After listening  to my CD of the older set side by side with the clip from the newer set, I promptly visited Amazon and bought a copy of the newer edition. The clip was the first movement of the 5th. The difference between the muddy, recessed sound of the old one and the clear, full sound of the new one is like night and day.

Thanks for the heads up, Scarps, and the opportunity to hear the difference for myself first. I had heard that the sound was better on the newer set, but had also heard that it wasn't that significant, so I thought it was mostly a marketing tactic, so never really considered the newer one despite the bargain price.

[Scarpia]

After listening  to my CD of the older set side by side with the clip from the newer set, I promptly visited Amazon and bought a copy of the newer edition. The clip was the first movement of the 5th. The difference between the muddy, recessed sound of the old one and the clear, full sound of the new one is like night and day.

Thanks for the heads up, Scarps, and the opportunity to hear the difference for myself first. I had heard that the sound was better on the newer set, but had also heard that it wasn't that significant, so I thought it was mostly a marketing tactic, so never really considered the newer one despite the bargain price.

Glad you liked it, but sorry for the ding to your account balance.