Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Octave]

Thanks for that kind advice, Marc; your latter suggestion was what I was initially thinking of doing (symphs box + orchestral lieder 2cd), but for whatever reason I'd ruled out the box set...I don't know why, because I think I like Haitink's approach in almost everything I've heard.  (I feel like I enjoy his RCO Brahms more than most people I hear talk about it.)
But I imagine that the Decca juggernaut will probably do some subsequent box with all of this in it, and my whole question will be moot.

Unrelated: I am very happy to have another shot at the Abbado cycle as part of that upcoming Abbado retrospective box from DG.

[jlaurson]

I know I would like to have Haitink's LIED VON DER ERDE, and it seems I am spoilt for choice.  Aside from a Philips/Eloquence single disc from 2000, there are two doubles.  Am I better served by one of these?

Tough one, indeed. Marc's answer hits it on the nail, though: If you are likely to get the 9th in another format, go with the all-singing disc. If not, the 9th is one of Haitink's finest achievements in Mahler from that time (several other splendid accounts have followed, since, including a 9th with the BRSO) and the more gratifying 'filler'. Then again, if you have mmpteenth 9ths in your collection already...

[Marc]

About Haitink's Mahler 9 et al, here's a short thread of the old forum (still available for just 2 days):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13388.0.html

[Octave]

Thanks for that pointer, Marc.

The following is coffee-fueled chatter; everyone is encouraged to skip it.

I already asked a hasty question in the Shost thread re: his #4 (opinions on the options were easier to find than I'd thought), but I will risk doing this again and mention aloud that I have whittled my next full cycle down to:


Chailly.........Sinopoli..........Abravanel
(with Abbado in the works for late this year)

My points of reference being the EMI "Complete" sampler; Bernstein/NY/Sony; Walter (recent Sony bargain box, incomplete); Levine (ditto); Kubelik (DG); Bertini; and assorted one-off encounters (believe it or not, I do sometimes buy recordings in batches of less than ~10 discs).
The Chailly seems like a sure shot pending distortions in my own taste; but the less-frequently-recommended (?) and, in my experience, occasionally derided Sinopoli sounds fascinating.  Sarge, for example, recommended that and also the Maazel, with caveats.  I think I am at least as interested in a "personal" [~"eccentric"] Mahler as I would be in a more conservative or careful reading, to wit the next sentence.  The Abravanel sounds interesting for roughly opposite reasons, though I admit that my main source of recommendation for that remains a prolific Amazon review who I think I do not "trust" entirely, if that is the right word in affairs of the heart i.e. music.   

Rather hard for me to "sample" works of music like these and know if I'll be happy living with them; I have tried, though.

[Sergeant Rock]

....but the less-frequently-recommended (?) and, in my experience, occasionally derided Sinopoli sounds fascinating.  Sarge, for example, recommended that and also the Maazel, with caveats.

I also recommended Chailly. That is my desert island set. Except for an under-powered Second, I love every performance in that box. Between Sinopoli and Chailly, which to purchase first? Flip a coin 

Sarge

[kishnevi]

Chailly and Sinopoli are both good; the only thing I can suggest is to get them both.
(Helpful, am I not?)
One thing to warn you about:  the Sinopoli box, as you pictured it, is a rather verstupte, vertummelte, verklumpte  ding, as they say in Yiddish: the symphonies are for the most part not in chronological order and many of them are split across 2 CDs.  Some of them of course there was no choice because of performing times, but even some of the symphonies that run under 80 minutes are split up over two CDs.  So you may find yourself a little zedrayte in dealing with it (but it's worth the trouble).

On the other hand, the Chailly box does not include the rather interesting couplings which filled out the original individual issues, which Chailly picked to help illuminate the main event (many if not most of these fillers not being Mahler's work);  however at least some of those individual issues are now OOP, so the box is the only reasonably priced option.

[Octave]

Thanks Jeffrey and Sarge!

[jlaurson]

Chailly and Sinopoli are both good; the only thing I can suggest is to get them both.
(Helpful, am I not?)

Given that you already have Bertini and Kubelik - go with Sinopoli. Chailly is superb, too, but more in the interpretative 'mainstream' where as Sinopoli makes for a nicely individualistic change. (While being totally unlike Bernstein.) Chailly is the better -- perhaps the best -- sounding cycle.

[Leo K.]

Chailly's M2 is quite stunning. One of the best out there. It's very underated for some reason.

[TheGSMoeller]

Hello, Gustav Goons, Mahler-Heads,

I'm interested in some Das Lied Von Der Erde and Kindertotnlieder recs. I just indulged in a few more 4th and 8th recordings (exploring Mahler's vocal pieces) and want to continue exploring. I know these pieces quite well but never looked further than just what I've heard on radio or recently online.
Thanks in advance!!! 

[Sergeant Rock]

Hello, Gustav Goons, Mahler-Heads,

I'm interested in some Das Lied Von Der Erde and Kindertotnlieder recs. I just indulged in a few more 4th and 8th recordings (exploring Mahler's vocal pieces) and want to continue exploring. I know these pieces quite well but never looked further than just what I've heard on radio or recently online.
Thanks in advance!!! 

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Sarge

[Octave]

I just got that Haitink, and it is doooooope.  I'm also crazy about the LIED by Kubelik on Audite, also with Janet Baker (1970), which I think has already gotten much love around here.

[knight66]

Das Lied can take contrasting approaches. There is the stoic Klemperer and the more overt, almost sensuous, Levine. In between is a live Kubelik.

I value all of these, none above the other. The singers are all excellent. Levine's Norman can on some recordings be too plush, but here the music sounds as though written for her voice. Wunderlich is a touchstone of voice production for Klemperer, but when comparing him to the less beautiful Kmentt for Kubelik, the latter works harder at the words, and they tell. I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.

There are many other excellent recordings and you may prefer a baritone in the non-tenor spongs, if so I suggest Fischer-Dieskau with Kletzki.

Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly. My own preferences steer me away from Hampson who never to me sounds inside the music. To my ears his considerable technique is all laid on and it is like watching Lawrence Olivier wheeling in his assemblages of ticks and eye flutterings to construct a character. I cannot find authenticity in Hampson's work, but others would recommend him.

Mike

Ps, I see that while typing others were having some similar thoughts.

[TheGSMoeller]

Great food for thought to begin with, thanks Sarge, Octave and kinght66.

[kishnevi]

Das Lied can take contrasting approaches. There is the stoic Klemperer and the more overt, almost sensuous, Levine. In between is a live Kubelik.

I value all of these, none above the other. The singers are all excellent. Levine's Norman can on some recordings be too plush, but here the music sounds as though written for her voice. Wunderlich is a touchstone of voice production for Klemperer, but when comparing him to the less beautiful Kmentt for Kubelik, the latter works harder at the words, and they tell. I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.

There are many other excellent recordings and you may prefer a baritone in the non-tenor spongs, if so I suggest Fischer-Dieskau with Kletzki.

Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly. My own preferences steer me away from Hampson who never to me sounds inside the music. To my ears his considerable technique is all laid on and it is like watching Lawrence Olivier wheeling in his assemblages of ticks and eye flutterings to construct a character. I cannot find authenticity in Hampson's work, but others would recommend him.

Mike

Ps, I see that while typing others were having some similar thoughts.

Slightly late to the game, but--
if you want Wunderlich and Fischer Dieskau,  there's a live recording of the two performing DLvdE under Josef Krips with the Vienna Symphony.  The sound is sometimes not the best, and the orchestral playing is also sometimes not the best,  but I think the two singers give a better performance in that recording than either does on their more celebrated ones (Fritz with Klemperer, Dietrich with Bernstein or Kletzki).

And although it's not quite germane to your actual question,  I think Hampson's recording of Ruckert Lieder with Bernstein is the best available.  (I thinik his Kindertotenlieder is good but doesn't outclass others, and the recording Hampson did with MTT a couple of years ago is not quite as good as the Bernstein.)

[Octave]

I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.
[...]
Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly.

Mike-Knight, that image you provide of the Kubelik/Baker/Kmentt ERDE is as close to adequate* as anything I've heard to the experience of the music.  Your description is the reason I keep coming back to the piece.  It's an obsession. 
Has anyone read anything about the piece (article, book, online) that they would recommend for a deeper understanding of it?  Analysis is welcome, though it would be a more uphill trudge for me.

Also, Mike-Knight, you mention Fassbaender's KINDERTOTENLIEDER: I'm assuming you mean the one with Chailly?  I like her voice very much, but I think I've not heard her in Mahler yet.

* (I just read back over that, and maybe I should emphasize that I was complimenting your description; I meant "adequate" in a "glass more than half full way", not as "faint praise".  If you'll pardon me a little neurotic jot-jot.  It was a lovely description and immediately seemed like my experience of the music.)

[knight66]

Octave, Yes, it is the Chailly version. Caught probably a bit late in the day, Fassbaender brings a lifetime of experience to the songs. She had a wonderfully distinctive voice and always provided new lights on what she sang.

Good to see someone balancing my negativity about Hampson. Part of my problem with him was a very early experience of his singing. I was in a short tour of chamber size performances of Dido and Aneas with Janet Baker. The Aneas was a young singer we did not know of; Hampson. The part of Aneas is small, but he yelled it at his considerable top volume and distorted the performance. Many years later I heard him do the same thing in Thais. So, deaf, or deafened,  to his good points, I nevertheless acknowledge lots of people think highly of him.

I don't know of any reading about Das Lied specifically beyond the usual material about how it came to be written and how the texts were adapted. What does help me is following the piano/vocal score and trying to sing the low voice songs.....not for public performance at all, just for pleasure and to understand them better.

I had forgotten the Wunderlich/DFD version....think I will go a'hunting.

Mike

[calyptorhynchus]

Is there any evidence that Mahler had heard the hymn "abide with me" (sometime on a New York trip perhaps), or are the phrases in the finale of the ninth a coincidence?

[elotito]

I've read through dozens of pages on this forum, as well as loads of reviews, and I still can't decide on a 3rd.
I have Horenstein but I'm not really happy with the recording quality, I would love something a bit more modern. I have been thinking of Chailly or Honeck. Are there any other modern recordings (well recorded/good interpretation) that I should be considering. I was also looking at Litton but I read some mixed reviews of that ranging from terrible to one of the best ever so I don't know what to think about that one.

[Jay F]

I've read through dozens of pages on this forum, as well as loads of reviews, and I still can't decide on a 3rd.
I have Horenstein but I'm not really happy with the recording quality, I would love something a bit more modern. I have been thinking of Chailly or Honeck. Are there any other modern recordings (well recorded/good interpretation) that I should be considering. I was also looking at Litton but I read some mixed reviews of that ranging from terrible to one of the best ever so I don't know what to think about that one.

Hi, Elotito - I've listened to many Mahler 3s over the years -- it's been a consistent favorite since I started listening to Mahler in 1987 -- and there are two I think combine great interpretation with glorious sound, those by Michael Tilson-Thomas and Esa Pekka Salonen. I have an SACD player, so I don't know if the non-SACD layer sounds as good, but the Salonen has always sounded wonderful to me.

My favorite M3 interpretation, however, has always been Bernstein's on CBS. It's currently available in DSD sound in the box set below. Even on its original CD version, I never had a problem with the 1960s sound. As I write this, on 6/15/13, it's available new for <$25 shipped on Amazon Marketplace. I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. You also get my favorite M1 (not an opinion shared by many), M6, M7, M8, and M9, and a great M2 (I like Abbado/Chicago and Bernstein on DG better).

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