Author Topic: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier  (Read 402294 times)

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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1880 on: November 24, 2021, 02:20:52 PM »
Decent performance and nice instrument, but so much reverb.

Is it the same instrument he used for his Goldbergs?
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Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1881 on: November 25, 2021, 08:16:28 AM »
Is it the same instrument he used for his Goldbergs?
it seems so. It’s the same builder and it’s a copy of a Haas. That’s what he uses on the Goldbergs so I’m guessing it’s the same instrument though I could be wrong. At one point I liked his Goldberg’s and then I got tired of it and never listened again. It might deserve a revisit but I do agree that this is an imposing sounding instrument and can wear one down.

Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1882 on: November 25, 2021, 11:12:56 PM »
…Listening to Kenneth Weiss and marveling about how much more attractive his instrument is.

Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1883 on: November 30, 2021, 07:37:21 PM »


I’m reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 04:33:26 AM by Que »

Offline hvbias

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1884 on: November 30, 2021, 07:48:49 PM »


Also this:
Sensitive playing. Sometimes bleak.

Revisiting this, made a playlist of hers, Evelyn Howard Jones, Edwin Fischer and sampling St. Laurent's true mono transfers of Samuil Feinberg (opposed to the fake stereo/noise reduction Russian Piano School).
"I feel very strongly about Chopin — I just love him" - Fou Ts'ong

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1885 on: December 01, 2021, 06:19:22 AM »


I’m reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.

To me it was like an unimaginative run through, not much different from sight-reading. Very disappointing.
As soon as a word has left the lips, not even the fastest horse can catch up with it.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1886 on: December 01, 2021, 06:20:40 AM »
…Listening to Kenneth Weiss and marveling about how much more attractive his instrument is.

Yes, this is something else, noble, tasteful and well-sounding.
As soon as a word has left the lips, not even the fastest horse can catch up with it.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1887 on: December 01, 2021, 06:38:06 AM »


I’m reassessing this. I think it needs more consideration.

I think you need to say more to make that idea convincing. Take a specific piece and say what makes it interesting for you.
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Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1888 on: December 01, 2021, 06:39:48 AM »
To me it was like an unimaginative run through, not much different from sight-reading. Very disappointing.
I was trying it out again today mostly because I like Dunedin so much. I just thought that there has to me more to Butt. I think Dunedin Cantatas and B-mass are fine recordings - attractive, unpretentious...or maybe I really like this pared-down approach in any vocal music. Kuijken, for example. Dunedin is a little more brisk and finely detailed than Kuijken sometimes. maybe. Anyway, Butt seems to get Bach in the vocal stuff, I wonder at his approach to the WTC. But, yeah, WTC is such deep waters. I expect a lot from anyone delving into it.

Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1889 on: December 01, 2021, 06:45:24 AM »
I think you need to say more to make that idea convincing. Take a specific piece and say what makes it interesting for you.
Yeah, there isn't anything. I want to like something here but I am not finding anything. I thought it deserved more consideration but I'm still not affected by it. The musicianship in Dunedin is very good and I think Butt's leadership in that ensemble is successful. I've listened to their latest Bach cantata recording several times. So, why doesn't Butt give us more in WTC? I don't know. The recording is wooden, inexpressive, etc. I thought wrong. 

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1890 on: December 01, 2021, 01:45:27 PM »
I was trying it out again today mostly because I like Dunedin so much. I just thought that there has to me more to Butt. I think Dunedin Cantatas and B-mass are fine recordings - attractive, unpretentious...or maybe I really like this pared-down approach in any vocal music. Kuijken, for example. Dunedin is a little more brisk and finely detailed than Kuijken sometimes. maybe. Anyway, Butt seems to get Bach in the vocal stuff, I wonder at his approach to the WTC. But, yeah, WTC is such deep waters. I expect a lot from anyone delving into it.

I fully agree, that the Dunedin's recordings are enjoyable (Brandenburgs, violin concertos, passions and b-minor mass), but as to Butt's recordings as a keyboardist, there is a but(t) (pun of course intended), as they generally are quite unremarkable (WTC, and some Bach organ recordings as well as organ music by Cabanilles, Frescobaldi and Pachelbel). His Kuhnau btw is moderately interesting.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 01:49:06 PM by (: premont :) »
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1891 on: December 04, 2021, 08:18:18 PM »
I fully agree, that the Dunedin's recordings are enjoyable (Brandenburgs, violin concertos, passions and b-minor mass), but as to Butt's recordings as a keyboardist, there is a but(t) (pun of course intended), as they generally are quite unremarkable (WTC, and some Bach organ recordings as well as organ music by Cabanilles, Frescobaldi and Pachelbel). His Kuhnau btw is moderately interesting.

Not his trio sonatas?
I liked his Frescobaldi as well.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1892 on: December 09, 2021, 01:00:58 PM »
Not his trio sonatas?
I liked his Frescobaldi as well.

I have listened to both (and several others of his recordings) a couple of times even if is some years ago, but I don't recall being that impressed, rather I recall them as being somewhat bland. But maybe I should revisit them.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1893 on: December 09, 2021, 02:20:45 PM »
Well I think there are some things to say about Butt’s WTC 2 at least. His experiment seems to be about two things:

1 Fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect. This is the opposite of cerebral, introspective, spiritual.

2. Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse.

I don’t share Premont’s thought that it’s unimaginative or sounds like a run through. I think it’s full of ideas, probably bold ones.   

I don’t say it’s a successful experiment by the way - I’m not sure how to make that judgement in fact.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 02:42:48 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1894 on: December 09, 2021, 03:36:18 PM »
Well, my "unimaginative run through" and your "fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect" aren't that different.

Your "Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse" reminds me of Glenn Gould, and I think there are some similarities here. So I shall change my "unimaginative" to monochrome.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1895 on: December 09, 2021, 08:33:11 PM »
Well, my "unimaginative run through" and your "fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect" aren't that different.

Your "Dancing rhythm and foot tapping pulse" reminds me of Glenn Gould, and I think there are some similarities here. So I shall change my "unimaginative" to monochrome.

In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn’t stiff at all.
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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1896 on: December 10, 2021, 03:20:06 AM »
In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn’t stiff at all.

But this:

Fast pace, drive it forward, never linger or reflect. This is the opposite of cerebral, introspective, spiritual.

doesn't leave much room for expressive rubato, and this is also how I recall Butt's WTC: devoid of reflection and expressive rubato.
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Offline milk

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1897 on: December 10, 2021, 07:07:53 AM »
In fact I also thought of Gould and so listened to one or two tracks - Gould is stiff, and Butt isn’t stiff at all.
It's much better than Gould I think. There are some subtle moments, probably some really inspirational moments if I had the patience to listen carefully to it all. It's just mostly too brisk. I think he would be bold if he were also moving in the way he does it. I guess it's possible someone can make that magic work. Isn't Pienaar, on the piano, also pretty brisk and toe-tapping? I recall liking Pienaar so I have to go back and figure it out. Maybe Pienaar seems witty and uses his chosen instrument to better effect. But maybe I'm misremembering Pienaar. Or maybe he's not always so experimentally breakneck as Butt.   

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1898 on: December 10, 2021, 07:52:24 AM »
But this:

doesn't leave much room for expressive rubato, and this is also how I recall Butt's WTC: devoid of reflection and expressive rubato.

Well, I don't hear it quite like that.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7pnCcxODh0U&amp;ab_channel=JohnButt-Topic" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7pnCcxODh0U&amp;ab_channel=JohnButt-Topic</a>

Here's Gould

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/rACX7pUZSjI&amp;ab_channel=GlennGould-Topic" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/rACX7pUZSjI&amp;ab_channel=GlennGould-Topic</a>
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 07:54:25 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
« Reply #1899 on: February 16, 2022, 09:57:28 AM »
Well, I'm at the end of my Papa Bach collection perusal w/ the WTC works - currently own 6 versions shown below, 3 on piano & 3 on harpsichord (and like to have both instrument options) - now I've not updated my WTC recordings in years, so maybe some newer offerings? The overall number is fine, i.e. 6 versions are plenty for me but 'culling and adding' is a consideration -  ;D

In looking through the last dozen pages of this thread, I see plenty of newer recordings unfamiliar to me, so would be interested in comments - now, I did look at reviews on the ones owned (see attachment if interested) - these have all received excellent to outstanding write-ups, but would like to do some Spotify listening of other recent favorites here.  Thanks for any help.  Dave :)