LvB Op 106 'Hammerklavier'

[val]

My favorite is Emil Gilels. Very pure, never massive (in special in the first movement) and with an extraordinary spirituality in the Adagio.

Brendel (VOX), simple, almost naif, is also very touching.

Friedrich Gulda is different, turned to himself, reaching a mystical level. But we only perceive this after two or three auditions.

Regarding the Fugue, I must mention Sviatoslav Richter and Claudio Arrau. For different reasons they are the best performers of this 4th movement, even better than Backhaus, Pollini or Serkin.

[George]

Friedrich Gulda is different, turned to himself, reaching a mystical level. But we only perceive this after two or three auditions.

Absolutely, he's my #2 pick for this sonata. One of the few who (pretty much) plays it at the specified tempo as well. 

[Florestan]

Another vote for Pollini and Gilels here.

[DavidRoss]

I've enjoyed these threads, Holden, partly for the sake of others' opinions--though more to learn what they value in the works/performances than to discover a "winner"--but mostly because they've been a spur to some limited comparative listening I'd otherwise be very unlikely to undertake but have enjoyed.  This exercise reinforces the virtue of owning multiple recordings, especially when a piece is grand enough to embrace (or withstand!) significantly different interpretations

Since yesterday I've listened to Pollini, Kempff, Kovacevich, and Buchbinder so far.  I like them all with no clear favorite.  Buchbinder seems to embody most of the strengths of the other three--the clarity and precision of Pollini, the thoughtful charm of Kempff, the rollicking playfulness and flexibility of Kovacevich.  I usually think of him as a restrained classicist, but at times in this Hammerklavier, Rudy rocks!

Comments here incline me toward Gulda, next...and then (if I haven't lost interest in the exercise) I'll probably give Goode a spin.  Interesting that none of the folks who usually gush over Annie Fischer have mentioned her yet.

[Sergeant Rock]

Comments here incline me toward Gulda, next...and then (if I haven't lost interest in the exercise) I'll probably give Goode a spin.  Interesting that none of the folks who usually gush over Annie Fischer have mentioned her yet.

Fischer I haven't listened to yet, nor Gulda...but making one choice among those I have listened to so far (Gilels, Arrau, Pollini and Rosen)...well, I went for Gould    Seriously, this is an amazing peformance, idiosyncratic without destroying the music. Slow, yes, (11+ minutes in the opening movement...without the repeat!). I really do like it but then I tend to lean toward performances on the slow side when given the choice. Rosen I liked too...more than the big names. Arrau has the best sound, surprising maybe because it's the oldest performance of those I sampled.

Sarge

[Ten thumbs]

I've found the above very interesting as I am considering acquiring a recording of this sonata because actually playing it all the way through is something of a chore for me. My only stipulations are that repeats are honored and the slow movement should not last longer than 15 minutes. Can you help me on that?
For your amusement, I repeat the spoof letter that Mendelssohn sent to his sister Fanny for her twentieth birthday (1825).
Most respected young lady! News of the service you have done me has redounded as far as Vienna: a fat man with moustaches and a thin one with a Parisian accent, whose names I forget, told me you induced an audience of connoisseurs to listen in a seemly manner to my concertos in E-flat and G and my Trio in B-flat. Only a few people fled, and such success might almost offend me and make me vexed with my works, but the attractiveness of your own playing forms part of this triumph and puts everything into proper proportion. That people should appreciate my first trios, my first two symphonies, and certain of my youthful sonatas is not extraordinary: as long as one writes music like everyone else and is young, thus mediocre and trivial, people understand and buy it – but I'm tired of that, and I've made music as Herr van Beethoven, and that is why, at my age and in the solitude of my lonely room, ideas cross my mind that are not necessarily pleasing to everyone. When I encounter people who embrace this music of mine, and thus the utmost secrets of my soul; when such persons treat the solitary old man I am in a friendly manner, they render me a service for which I am most grateful. Such people are my true friends and I don't have no others (sic). On account of this friendship, I am taking the liberty of sending you my Sonata in b-flat major Opus 106, for your birthday, with my sincere congratulations. I did not create it to throw dust in people's eyes: play it only when you have sufficient time, for it needs time, it is not one of the shortest! – but I had much to say. If your friendship for me does not extend so far, ask my admirer, Marx, he will analyze it for you, and the adagio, especially, will give him ample opportunity. Moreover, it is a particular pleasure for me to offer a sonata written not for the pianoforte but for the Hammerklavier to a lady as German as you have been described to me.
In conclusion, I am including a bad portrait of myself with this letter, being certainly the equal of other great men in the world who make presents of their portraits: I do not think myself at all a wicked fellow. Therefore keep a pleasant memory of your very devoted Beethoven.
(quoted form F. Tillard's biography of F.M.)

[Holden]

I've found the above very interesting as I am considering acquiring a recording of this sonata because actually playing it all the way through is something of a chore for me. My only stipulations are that repeats are honored and the slow movement should not last longer than 15 minutes. Can you help me on that?

Why is this? Two of the most compelling recordings of the Adagio are by Solomon (22:20)  and by Sokolov (23:45). They are so good that they manage to maintain the atmosphere right throughout. Even the famous Richter performance in London comes in at 17 mintes plus. Probably the most famous Adagio is by Schnabel and he takes 18 minutes and 34 seconds. So why do you want it played at a faster speed than Beethoven asked for? Do you want all the repeats? The Pollini version seems to be the winner here but you'll have to settle for 17 minutes also.

[Ten thumbs]

Why is this? Two of the most compelling recordings of the Adagio are by Solomon (22:20)  and by Sokolov (23:45). They are so good that they manage to maintain the atmosphere right throughout. Even the famous Richter performance in London comes in at 17 mintes plus. Probably the most famous Adagio is by Schnabel and he takes 18 minutes and 34 seconds. So why do you want it played at a faster speed than Beethoven asked for? Do you want all the repeats? The Pollini version seems to be the winner here but you'll have to settle for 17 minutes also.

17 minutes might pass but 22 is ridiculous. How do you know what speed Beethoven asked for? Appassionato e con molto sentimento scarcely suggests a very slow pace and how does one achieve the pulsing urgency of the second subject? Peters edition gives quaver = 92, which works out at a little over 12 minutes. This I think is too fast. I timed my playing at 14.57. Pianists have developed an unmusical fashion for playing classical slow movements far too slowly. I notice this especially with Schubert. There is no merit in it whatsoever.
There is of course only one repeat in this sonata and it is essential not only because Beethoven writes first and second time bars but also to give balance. If the composer asked for it, why take it away?

[Holden]

17 minutes might pass but 22 is ridiculous. How do you know what speed Beethoven asked for? Appassionato e con molto sentimento scarcely suggests a very slow pace and how does one achieve the pulsing urgency of the second subject? Peters edition gives quaver = 92, which works out at a little over 12 minutes. This I think is too fast. I timed my playing at 14.57. Pianists have developed an unmusical fashion for playing classical slow movements far too slowly. I notice this especially with Schubert. There is no merit in it whatsoever.
There is of course only one repeat in this sonata and it is essential not only because Beethoven writes first and second time bars but also to give balance. If the composer asked for it, why take it away?

"Appassionato e con molto sentimento" is hardly an indication of tempo and you can play very passionately and with a lot of feeling at any pace. The notation calls for adagio. The trick is having the ability to pull it off. Sokolov and Solomon certainly do that.

As for the Peters edition - that's just his opinion as is it yours to play it at the speed that you want to.  What I want to know is do you just want to race through the movement to get to the intricacies of the fugue or are there other reasons for you to play it at this pace?

The average speed recommended for an Urtext edition of this piece is about 19 minutes. This would accommodate your less than 15 minutes but also applies to the latter. This has nothng to do with speed but with expression.

[Ten thumbs]

"Appassionato e con molto sentimento" is hardly an indication of tempo and you can play very passionately and with a lot of feeling at any pace. The notation calls for adagio. The trick is having the ability to pull it off. Sokolov and Solomon certainly do that.

As for the Peters edition - that's just his opinion as is it yours to play it at the speed that you want to.  What I want to know is do you just want to race through the movement to get to the intricacies of the fugue or are there other reasons for you to play it at this pace?

The average speed recommended for an Urtext edition of this piece is about 19 minutes. This would accommodate your less than 15 minutes but also applies to the latter. This has nothng to do with speed but with expression.

15 minutes is hardly racing through this movement. 19 minutes is merely someone's opinion and that opinion is hardly worth more than Peters. Did Beethoven give a metronome marking. If not there is no Urtext evidence available. It may be possible to 'pull off' a performance in five minutes flat but that hardly justifies the effort.
The first movement incidentally is marked allegro in 2/2 time. This means that the minims are to be played allegro and there should distinctly be only two beats to a bar. This points to a timing of around 14.45 with the repeat. Slowing it beyond this is bound to be ponderous.

[Todd]

15 minutes is hardly racing through this movement. 19 minutes is merely someone's opinion and that opinion is hardly worth more than Peters. Did Beethoven give a metronome marking. If not there is no Urtext evidence available.

I'm curious: which major pianists play the slow movement in 15 minutes?  I can't remember any without looking at timings of all of the recordings I own.  Some come in at 16 or 17 minutes, but most hover between 18 and 22 minutes.  If extended times were so amusical or incorrect, why have so many pianists over the last, what, six or seven decades of recordings of this piece opted for slow timings?  Surely at least a few of them knew (and know) what they are doing, or do you actually claim to be more of an expert than Gilels, Pollini, Sherman, Nat, Backhaus, Kempff, Fischer, et al?  If you are, I'd really like to hear a recording of you in this piece.  Can you help out here?

[PerfectWagnerite]

The first movement incidentally is marked allegro in 2/2 time. This means that the minims are to be played allegro and there should distinctly be only two beats to a bar. This points to a timing of around 14.45 with the repeat. Slowing it beyond this is bound to be ponderous.

I have seen the first movement as marked, in 2/2 time, half note = 138. Is that Beethoven's own marking or someone put it there ? Incidentally if you play the Adagio at 15 minutes or so you better be ready to play the first movement at some vicinity of 138 just for sufficient contrast.

[FideLeo]

I have seen the first movement as marked, in 2/2 time, half note = 138. Is that Beethoven's own marking or someone put it there ?

It is Beethoven's own -- and op. 106 is the only case where he left mm for his pianoforte sonatas.  I use the reference of Sandra Rosenblum's article on metronome marks in LvB sonatas in Early Music.  Vol.16  No. 1 (1988).  On pages 68-69, there is a table showing the mm's for all Beethoven's sonatas in early editions.

Allegro  minim (half note)=138
Scherzo Assai vivace minim=80
            Presto  minim=152 (only found in Czerny's Piano-Schule 1846)
Adagio sostenuto quaver (eighth note)=92
Largo quaver=76 (only found in Haslinger's edition 1842)
Allegro risoluto crotchet (quarter note)=144

[George]

Gulda recorded this sonata pretty close to the metronome markings in his Amadeo/Brilliant set. What is his timing for the slow movement?

[FideLeo]

Gulda recorded this sonata pretty close to the metronome markings in his Amadeo/Brilliant set. What is his timing for the slow movement?

13:44

[Ten thumbs]

13:44

Thank you. 187 bars times 6 quavers at 92 comes out at 12:12 but allowing for pauses and one ritardando, why not?
15 minutes is very much Adagio sostenuto and as I want a recording for repeated listening I would prefer one somewhere close. Incredibly slow performances may work as circus acts and I wouldn't object to it if heard once in recital. This is not the only instance of bad habits developing in musical circles. Perhaps I am too addicted to the con grand'espressione where others are addicted to the pedal.

[George]

This points to a timing of around 14.45 with the repeat. Slowing it beyond this is bound to be ponderous.

So by that logic, the tempo you want would be ponderous at 15:00. 

I don't see why Gulda's wouldn't be good for repeated listenings. His interpretation is second only to Pollini IMO. 

[ezodisy]

If you are, I'd really like to hear a recording of you in this piece.  Can you help out here?

Did you notice his username Todd?

Incredibly slow performances may work as circus acts and I wouldn't object to it if heard once in recital.

Don't you think that this comment of yours is a little pretentious? Let's keep in mind that you are commenting on pianists who have given a lifetime of study to this work, and I'm sure they're more than capable of handling your basic calculations above. As you play yourself and appear to disagree with most pianists, wouldn't it be better to sit down and go at it instead of looking around outside?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Did you notice his username Todd?

What? Ten Thumbs? What is the significance of that?

[Ten thumbs]

I have seen the first movement as marked, in 2/2 time, half note = 138. Is that Beethoven's own marking or someone put it there ? Incidentally if you play the Adagio at 15 minutes or so you better be ready to play the first movement at some vicinity of 138 just for sufficient contrast.

Yes, I sometimes feel I have ten thumbs and can't achieve anything like minim = 138. Nevertheless, my timing is 14.45 with the repeat as I said, which may be around minim = 96. However, the beat for the Adagio at my 15 min pace is approx quaver = 75 or a beat of 25 to the minute ( the Adagio is in 6/8, two beats to a bar). I find 25:96 more than enough contrast but yes it could be improved if only I have more skill.

Don't you think that this comment of yours is a little pretentious? Let's keep in mind that you are commenting on pianists who have given a lifetime of study to this work, and I'm sure they're more than capable of handling your basic calculations above. As you play yourself and appear to disagree with most pianists, wouldn't it be better to sit down and go at it instead of looking around outside?

.
No, because I'm looking for a recording that I would like. If only I could have Beethoven himself who seems to prefer under 14 minutes (allowing for the error in his metronome). There seems to be a fallacy that music is somehow improved if is slowed down. Some classical movements seem to have arrived at half tempo and I don't think this is good practice, no matter how many eminent pianists copy it. Doing so does the composer no favours. Do modern pianist really know better? I think it is just a fad.