Visionaries Debate

[jochanaan]

So we (mostly) concede that Wagner was a great master and a great visionary.  But there are plenty of other threads on him.

Just for laughs, shall we discuss Alexander Scriabin?  Some of his advocates have claimed that he was one of the greatest musical visionaries ever, and from the evidence of The Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus, I'm inclined to agree.  Granted that his greatest "vision" of a week-long arts festival in the Himalayas didn't happen and probably wouldn't have brought The New Age, what about his unique approach to harmony and rhythm?

[karlhenning]

Just for laughs, shall we discuss Alexander Scriabin?  Some of his advocates have claimed that he was one of the greatest musical visionaries ever, and from the evidence of The Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus, I'm inclined to agree.  Granted that his greatest "vision" of a week-long arts festival in the Himalayas didn't happen and probably wouldn't have brought The New Age, what about his unique approach to harmony and rhythm?

Vision is one thing; execution, another.

[Sergeant Rock]

Thank
Thank you guys.  I will sieze upon the Solti...surely the old Hungarian Master won't cost too much these days...

You'd think, given it's age (Rheingold recorded in 1958), that would be the case but in fact it remains one of the most expensive Rings...unless you can find a used one cheap somewhere.

Sarge

[lukeottevanger]

You'd think, given it's age (Rheingold recorded in 1958), that would be the case but in fact it remains one of the most expensive Rings...unless you can find a used one cheap somewhere.

Sarge

At one point the Britannia Music Club had it as a special introductory offer - £20 + free 2 CD set of Deryck Cooke's 'Introduction to the Ring' (which is a kind of appendix to the Solti edition, using the same recordings or specially recorded excerpts). So that's how I got mine - and the best thing was, my Dad bought it as his introductory offer and then gave it to me. So, the Solti Ring was my cheapest 

[Haffner]

At one point the Britannia Music Club had it as a special introductory offer - £20 + free 2 CD set of Deryck Cooke's 'Introduction to the Ring' (which is a kind of appendix to the Solti edition, using the same recordings or specially recorded excerpts). So that's how I got mine - and the best thing was, my Dad bought it as his introductory offer and then gave it to me. So, the Solti Ring was my cheapest 

Hey cool story! The Cooke/Wagner writings are all very interesting. I really enjoyed M.Owen Lee's "Intro" take, and that's what I started with as a "Ring" appendix. I also got a kick out the "Wagner's Ring and Its Symbols" by Donington, though alot of his over-psycho-analyzing made me either laugh out loud or unintentionally sneer.

[karlhenning]

. . . So, the Solti Ring was my cheapest 

Subtle, yet frightful phrase, in its hint of uncharted plurality 

[Haffner]

Yup, he was a visionary too, as are many composers...but he's a blip next to the major cats. Being a visionary is one thing, but being a visionary who has a major impact is another.

Excellent point. But Scriabin had his moments, didn't he?

[karlhenning]

Excellent point. But Scriabin had his moments, didn't he?

Oh, you don't see how inflexible James's dogmata are, Andy.  If the influence is slight, the vision isn't worth a damn.

[karlhenning]

I never said that karl, I love music from Varese & Scriabin, but you have to be pretty objective & humble about the relative impact of their vision(s) compared to much greater figures. That's all.

And to be objective means essentially agreeing with you, is that it, James?

[karlhenning]

Ah no, I mean...this isn't exactly stuff i'm making up just now karl, we can put things into perspective and be clear headed about this.

Right. As I see things, influence and vision are distinct matters.

There.  That's only the third time I've mentioned that in this thread.

[karlhenning]

Impact is a vital key to this. The vision should carry well or have a record of carrying well in order to be considered truly great, important & substantial I would think. Otherwise, it's perhaps a little too esoteric...

Which echoes things you've said earlier.  Hence:

Oh, you don't see how inflexible James's dogmata are, Andy.  If the influence is slight, the vision isn't worth a damn.

[karlhenning]

You are confused (as well as rude), James.

Now, let's be a little humble and clear-headed about this.

Vision and influence are different matters.  That is common sense.

Now, if you decide that your current interests are only in those composers of both vision (whatever that may be, as it is a valid field for discussion in this thread, and generally) and wide-ranging influence together, no one would have any quarrel to it.  Your interests are your interests, and no one else here knows them, unless you share them hither.

But another bit of common sense is this: The range of your current interests and what is important are different matters, too.

[karlhenning]

Right, so following your logic, the greatest visionary is someone who's ideas & creations have a very very limited appeal and impact.

Nonsense.  But if you find amusement in the strawmannish claim that vision and influence necessarily have an inverse relationship . . . .

[Mark G. Simon]

I'm just wondering what it really means to be a visionary in music. The dictionary defines visionary as

1  : one whose ideas or projects are impractical : dreamer 
2  : one who sees visions : seer   
3  : one having unusual foresight and imagination <a visionary in the computer industry.

I think definition three comes the closest to what we're talking about. All the great composers have imagination. Not all of them have foresight. Bach and Handel, masterly as they were in the forms and compositional procedures of their day, did not try to envision anything for the future of music, although they had an enormous impact and influence on future generations. So I don't really see them as visionary. Haydn, in conceiving a symphonic procedure in which a movement is built upon the development of motivic cells, might better fit the bill, though we might not see his particular manner of composing as having foresight had it not been adopted by Mozart, Beethoven and many more of his lesser contemporaries.

In that sense James has a point. The extant to which a composer's ideas can be seen as visionary depends in part on how much they were adopted by later composers. Foresight is part of it. Being able to see how the future plays out. But this is deceptive, because a great artist alters the future by influencing how it plays out. We don't know if Haydn intended to revolutionize the art of symphonic writing with his motivic development technique, so we can't say with certainty that he was truly visionary, or just lucky that future composers picked up on his methods.

So I'd say there is an element of intent that comes with being a visionary. If Hank Aaron hits a lot of home runs, he's a great batter. A visionary is someone like Babe Ruth who points to a place in the stands and then proceeds to hit a home run there.

The concept of making innovations for the sake of influencing the future belongs to the 19th and 20th centuries, and Wagner is music's first true visionary. He said he was creating "music of the future" and so he did. Schoenberg said his method would ensure the dominance of German music for the next century. He fell short of that goal, but his 12-tone method was still one of the most important developments of the 20th century, and certainly qualifies him as a visionary. Russolo envisioned a music made out noise. His vision, involving various noise-making machines, didn't lead anywhere at all. So intent and impact would be necessary in my formulation of what it is to be a visionary.

[jochanaan]

Vision is one thing; execution, another.

Unless the visionary runs afoul of certain--authorities.

[Opus106]

The final show was hodge-podge of a few opinions and excerpts from excerpts of music played fast enough so that the 30-minute programme would end on time. And Bach was decided to be the greatest visionary.

[greg]

lol

[drogulus]

     What about Beethoven as a visionary? Wouldn't he be a more suitable candidate for visionary than Bach, on the grounds that he had the intent and the impact?

And Bach was decided to be the greatest visionary.

    I think Mark is right about the requirement for something like foresight as well as impact.

    Did Beethoven really say "now music changes forever" as he began conducting the premiere of the 9th Symphony? If so, that would be a Babe Ruth moment.

[greg]

    Did Beethoven really say "now music changes forever" as he began conducting the premiere of the 9th Symphony? If so, that would be a Babe Ruth moment.

Then again, didn't he already change it enough with his previous music, anyways?

[karlhenning]

Did Beethoven really say "now music changes forever" as he began conducting the premiere of the 9th Symphony?

If he did, he didn't hear himself say it.