Some aspects I love about the Christian religion

[Homo Aestheticus]

Although I am not a believer of any religion there are three things Jesus Christ said (and not often cited) which are especially wonderful.

1. "Come to me, you who are tired and overburdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

2. "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven"

3. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"

Of all the Christian principles meekness is probably the most offensive to human nature. Here is my dictionary entry:

"Being humbly patient and gentle when under provocation from others or the reluctance to assert oneself"

Nor does one see that word used very often.

4. The Lord's prayer: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. Amen.

And how this prayer meets a person's need just at his or her own level, whether superficially or deep.

Despite all of this, it's the staggering variation in personality, wide differences of intellectual ability, our aesthetic sense and our animalistic/primitive instincts which makes it impossible for me to accept these... to believe in this kind of God. 

Have you ever either as a Christian or a nonbeliever had difficulty reconciling some of this ?

[Bulldog]

Can't answer the question when I have no idea what you're talking about.  Could you rephrase?

[Philoctetes]

I've never found reconciliation all that difficult.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Can't answer the question when I have no idea what you're talking about.  Could you rephrase?

One side of my question is: does engaging in aesthetic activities hinder a person's ability to be a Christian ?

Look at what the Christian God asks of us. Why did he design our minds in such an incredibly complex way ?

[SonicMan46]

One side of my question is: does engaging in aesthetic activities hinder a person's ability to be a Christian ?

Look at what the Christian God asks of us. Why did he design our minds in such an incredibly complex way ?

TUP - I usually don't involve myself in these posts - often seem to have no direction, but you need to resolve several issues for yourself if others are going to respond to your questions?

First - from the above statement in bold, you imply that there is a god who created humans w/ a 'complex' mind - is this your belief?  Many others may not believe or at least doubt the existence of god, and thus believe that the human species evolved and that the human mind was simply an event of this process?

Second - from your OP, the statements quoted as presumably spoken by Jesus is purely speculation - Jesus was likely an historic character, but his person (of course, he was Jewish) & spoken words are completely unknown, as are all of the events attributed to his life - the quotes made were composed many years (if not hundreds) after his presumed death - I'm not saying that these are not laudable statements but were unlikley made by an historic character (real or not) called Jesus - 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Sonic Man,

First - from the above statement in bold, you imply that there is a god who created humans w/ a 'complex' mind - is this your belief?  Many others may not believe or at least doubt the existence of god, and thus believe that the human species evolved and that the human mind was simply an event of this process?

Yes, of course I believe that we evolved to that point...  

What I don't understand is why the Christian God allowed our minds to become so complex and sophisticated but yet he commands us to be meek, trusting like children, to reject most sensual pleasures and to pray that way.... What is the point of all this ?  For example, why do we have such a strong aesthetic faculty ? A lot of this stuff just seems incompatible.

[Josquin des Prez]

One side of my question is: does engaging in aesthetic activities hinder a person's ability to be a Christian ?

Of course not. Just ask Andrei Tarkovsky, or Bach for that matter.

Look at what the Christian God asks of us. Why did he design our minds in such an incredibly complex way ?

The only concern of Christianity is the world beyond. Life on the earth is really immaterial and ultimately of no consequence. This concept worked very well when the life expectancy of the average person was much lower then it is today. It is my belief that God resides in each one of us and that religion is merely a manifestation of our daily intercourse with him (if you caught a glimpse of my philosophizing here you'll know why i think it has to be a him), the same way art is a manifestation of the artist's inner being. Thus, what you usually get from religion is a projection of the peculiar intercourse with God, or the divine, experienced by a collective of individuals. This doesn't mean there isn't a lot of arbitrary hogwash in both scripture and dogma (both of which are entirely man made, btw) but the truly religious individual will be able to ignore the arbitrary gloss imposed by tradition and cut straight to the heart of the matter. This is the reason so many great men were attracted to the Bible (think Dostoevsky), despite the fact scripture generally falls apart under rational scrutiny. Of course, it needs to be said that a lots of things fall apart under "rational" scrutiny, including civilization (read Oswald Spengler for reference).

In this sense true art is non other then the artistic manifestation of the divine. This is the basic premise of Tarkovsky's entire lifework, who believed that the purpose of art is to allow us to grow spiritually (and by extension ready us for the after life), which, to wit, is also the purpose of religion. Thus, the greatest works of art are these who manifest the divine in a purer manner, which is why the music of Bach or that of the late Beethoven are so universally appreciated, and modern "commercial" art so universally reviled (by people of good conscience of course. Liberal sodomites need not apply).

It is my belief that the divine and the material do not mix together, meaning that there is no contact between the two realities and that everything that occurs in this earth is governed by earthly and material rules, the rules studied and supported by science. So if we were to ask what God would make one individual, or a group of individuals, intellectually superior to others (a pressing concern of yours it seems), the answer is simple: God had nothing to do with it. It is a by product of the self contained machine which we call reality and which is governed by its own set of internal rules. It may be possible that this machine was originally concocted by a sentient being, so that everything that occurs within its operational structure is "by design", though the machine itself is ultimately free from any direct manipulation from an higher being.

Now, there are a few problems with this conception. For starters, different groups of people seem to have a different conception of the divine, though ultimately certain elements of its essence (I.E., the Good) seem to share many common points across the board. The one element that really punches a hole in my little theory is that in this past century or so the divine inherent in our society has been under attack by a race of people which, apparently, seem to give less then a shit about "the Good" (in the words of Weininger "Their sin is smirking at the Good, as the simpleton's sin is smirking at wisdom") a race of people who also happen to be the most intelligent in the world (thanks to the rules of natural selection). Of course, to quote Weininger again, "everything evil is revenge", so maybe this world of ours really is manipulated by God, which means the annihilation of the Good in our society must be the result of divine retribution. If this is the case, our sins must have been great indeed to warrant the destruction of our soul.

[Josquin des Prez]

Second - from your OP, the statements quoted as presumably spoken by Jesus is purely speculation - Jesus was likely an historic character, but his person (of course, he was Jewish) & spoken words are completely unknown, as are all of the events attributed to his life - the quotes made were composed many years (if not hundreds) after his presumed death - I'm not saying that these are not laudable statements but were unlikley made by an historic character (real or not) called Jesus - 

Could be, but why talk about the Jewish origins of Jesus? Is this to imply that Christianity is ultimately a Jewish religion? Because it is not. Christianity is an offspring of western domination in the middle east. It is seeped in western thought, Greek thought, the original document of its doctrine being written in Greek, and it reflects ideals that are consonant with our inner sense of morality as westerners. Even assuming this is a distortion of an earlier version of the religion more in tune with the Jewish tradition is irrelevant, since that version no longer exists. 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Of course not. Just ask Andrei Tarkovsky, or Bach for that matter.

The reason I asked is that JC never said anything about aesthetics.

And thanks for that brief exposition.

[Josquin des Prez]

The reason I asked is that JC never said anything about aesthetics.

Well, i guess its a bit hard to think of art when your are staring at the naked suffering of mankind. Don't forget that art, as precious as it is for our well being, is essentially a luxury. I doubt Wagner would be one your priorities if your children were starving to death.

[Philoctetes]

Well, i guess its a bit hard to think of art when your are staring at the naked suffering of mankind. Don't forget that art, as precious as it is for our well being, is essentially a luxury. I doubt Wagner would be one your priorities if your children were starving to death.

If you had your priorities straight; he would.

[Bulldog]

One side of my question is: does engaging in aesthetic activities hinder a person's ability to be a Christian ?

Look at what the Christian God asks of us. Why did he design our minds in such an incredibly complex way ?

Those are questions for Christians; see you later.

[zamyrabyrd]

Although I am not a believer of any religion there are three things Jesus Christ said (and not often cited) which are especially wonderful.

2. "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven"

3. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"

Of all the Christian principles meekness is probably the most offensive to human nature. Here is my dictionary entry:

"Being humbly patient and gentle when under provocation from others or the reluctance to assert oneself"

Hi there.

"Meek", a word chosen by the translators may not be the exact meaning of what was said or reported to be said. The speech was in Aramaic, recorded in Greek. So much gets lost in translation or even distorted. "The Bible as History" is an excellent book on the problems of translation that often resembles the game of "telephone"-- the end whispered message totally different than the original. Add to that  several decades passed before the oral tradition was put down by various authors, collected, sorted and even weeded out a few hundred years later.

Needless to say on a forum like this, literal belief in the Bible for the linguistical reason alone is two-dimensional and can also be dangerous. Translating religious experience into three dimensions for those who experienced other dimensions say that the first doesn't resemble the second at all.

But translating it into behavior for society, compassion and by extension, protection of the weak, is the Christian legacy to society. The Roman Empire had no use for anything except power. Today, some societies want to bring back the cutting off the hands of thieves, crucifixion and stoning of adulterers. As for the last, Jesus saved the woman by writing the faults of the stone throwers on the ground.

Being in touch with your "inner child" is not ridiculed or denounced by agnostic liberals.

I appreciated Josquin's response. For sure all of this is complex and we can only see in a "mirror darkly", no matter what our intellectual or personal gifts are.

[Florestan]

does engaging in aesthetic activities hinder a person's ability to be a Christian ?

Given the giant aestethic achievements of devout Christians, the answer is obviously no.

The only concern of Christianity is the world beyond. Life on the earth is really immaterial and ultimately of no consequence.

This is not so. Any Orthodox or Catholic Christian knows that life on earth matters enormously since salvation has to be gained here; in the afterlife it is too late.

The reason I asked is that JC never said anything about aesthetics.

Jesus Christ never said anything about science, music or painting, too, yet these are activities in which devout Christians engaged with religious fervor and divine achievements (pun intended).

[david johnson]

'after his presumed death'

mmmm...you think perhaps He did not die?  odd to read here.

dj

[DavidW]

What I don't understand is why the Christian God allowed our minds to become so complex and sophisticated but yet he commands us to be meek, trusting like children, to reject most sensual pleasures and to pray that way.... What is the point of all this ?  For example, why do we have such a strong aesthetic faculty ? A lot of this stuff just seems incompatible.

Really you're just asking "why do we have free will"?  That's an old question that you tried to dress up as being modern.

[Florestan]

Look at what the Christian God asks of us. Why did he design our minds in such an incredibly complex way ?

You seem to be confusing humility with stupidity.

[karlhenning]

You're all off-topic.  This is another thread about Eric, viz.:

Some aspects I love about [. . . .]

[Dr. Dread]

Jesus wants Eric off the innernetz.  0:)

[Homo Aestheticus]

Really you're just asking "why do we have free will"?  That's an old question that you tried to dress up as being modern.

No, not quite...   

My question was more to the effect of:

If you look at everything that Jesus Christ demands of us and the highmindedness of it all, there is not much room left to engage in other activites that come very naturally to us (i.e. aesthetic, intellectual, philosophical)

Presumably, if one were to become 'born again' and I mean that in the sense of having one's complete psyche "renewed" or emptied of the desire to exercise personal self-will as Christ seems to want from us... wouldn't these activities recede in importance or become almost pointless now since caring for one's soul is paramount ? Besides what can compare with the 'joy' of living in the hope with a supernatural being ?

If there were a more neutral supernatural being who handed down a few basic moral laws and left it at that, fine. But with the Christian God he wants us to be as selfless and loving as possible and yet at the same time gives us the capacity to create aesthetic products and to reason and so on.