Old Musical Instruments & Modern Reproductions!

[Gurn Blanston]

This is what is on the Delerium disc:

Concerto No. 1 for 2 lire organizzate in C major, H. 7h/1
Divertimento a 8, for baryton, 2 violins, viola, cello, bass & 2 horns in A minor/A major, H. 10/3
Notturno for 2 lire organizzate, 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 violas & bass in G major, H. 2/27
Divertimento a 8, for baryton, 2 violins, viola, cello, bass & 2 horns in G major, H. 10/12
Notturno for 2 lire organizzate, 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 violas & bass in C major, H. 2/32

So I guess there is no doubling!

Q

Wunderbar! That's a must have then. Especially since Concerto #3 in G is the original basis for the Military Symphony #100. It's all good.

[Bogey]

This one on anyone's shelf?

[SonicMan46]

This one on anyone's shelf?

Hi Bill - check my OP for this thread (back in the spring of 2009) - started this whole discussion off after acquiring that CD - small world!  Dave

[Bogey]

I almost scrolled through the thread, Dave, but did not have time when I found this disc so just posted.  I will take a look.

[SonicMan46]

At the bottom is quoted a post that I just left in the listening thread which prompted a return here after reading about the harpsichords (both reproductions) used on these 2 recordings (Soly has 7 volumes out @ the moment of Graupner's keyboard works!).  Both instruments were built by Hubbard & Broekman (1998 & 2002) and are described as 'small' (V.1) & 'large' (V.2) Hamburg-style double manual harpsichords after the designs & practices of H.A. Hass, ca. 1730s.

Details of these fabulous instruments more fully described  on the link above; prices are $30,000 & $34,000, respectively for those interested -    BTW, this company also sells kits - did not check the cost, but I'm sure a little more challenging than the dulcimer kits I put together for Susan years ago!  Pictures of both instruments immediately below - enjoy.  Dave



 

Graupner, Christoph (1683-1760) - Harpsichord Works w/ Genevieve Soly on two different harpsichords made by Hubbard & Broekman - Hamburg style double-manual instruments after the designs & practices of H.A. Hass, ca. 1730s.

 

[Brian]

You probably don't track new releases from the Grand Piano label looking for HIP stuff, since its name is Grand Piano. But their two-CD set of Daniel Turk's sonatas -

[asin]B008N66J80[/asin]

- utilizes five (!) different instruments from about 1780-1820, including spinet, harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano, and tangent piano. It's a show-off album for the University of South Dakota's rather impressive historical instrument collection - the harpsichord is a special rarity as it was built in 1798.

Daniel Turk himself was a piano teacher and pedagogue; his sonatas are being prepared for a new performing edition by the pianist Michael Tsalka.

[milk]

You probably don't track new releases from the Grand Piano label looking for HIP stuff, since its name is Grand Piano. But their two-CD set of Daniel Turk's sonatas -

[asin]B008N66J80[/asin]

- utilizes five (!) different instruments from about 1780-1820, including spinet, harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano, and tangent piano. It's a show-off album for the University of South Dakota's rather impressive historical instrument collection - the harpsichord is a special rarity as it was built in 1798.

Daniel Turk himself was a piano teacher and pedagogue; his sonatas are being prepared for a new performing edition by the pianist Michael Tsalka.

From the samples, the instruments sound great. Although, at the moment, someone is having a little fun with this composer's wikipedia page. A reviewer on amazon likens his best pieces to the works of C.P.E. Bach and early Haydn. Do you concur? I'm tempted to buy this just on the basis of the sound of these instruments. However, I seem to spend too much money on stuff I end up not listening to very much. 

[Szykneij]

Last night I had the pleasure of experiencing Bach's Christmas Oratorio (Cantatas I, II, and VI) performed by the Handel and Haydn Society's Period Instrument Orchestra and Chorus at Boston's Jordan Hall. Rather than post about it elsewhere where the HIP subject can get contentious, I thought I'd mention my observations here since they deal mainly with the instruments of the Baroque era.

While I have many recordings using period instruments, this was my first time hearing and seeing them in action live, and the impact was colossal.



The difference in string sound as compared to modern instruments was striking. The shorter neck, higher arching, and gut strings of the violins produced a much mellower sound with a distinct timbre that isn't always evident in recordings. Sans chinrests, and with bow grips up the stick much like that of fiddlers, the players demonstrated an exuberant playing style that was fascinating to watch. All but one seemed able to limit their use of vibrato.

The single bass player used a German style bow with an enormous arch. Although his instrument had mechanical tuners, it was clear these were retrofitted to the scroll that had peg holes clearly visible.



Most impressive to me were the trio of natural trumpet players. The passages they were able to produce
were incredible. Had I not been watching, I would have assumed they were using valved instruments.



The sound of the open-holded Baroque flutes was what surprised me most. Played in the transverse manner as are modern flutes, the timbre was much more similar to that of a recorder. I found this intriguing as my belief was that the construction material would have far less effect on the sound than the manner used to put the air column into motion.

Here is a review of the concert printed today in the Boston Globe:

http://bostonclassicalreview.com/2012/12/handel-and-haydn-serves-up-a-joyous-performance-of-bachs-christmas-oratorio/

[SonicMan46]

Hi Tony - 'sounds' like a wonderful experience - love going to live concerts & watching the musicians play their instruments - thanks for sharing!  Dave

[jochanaan]

How were they seated, Szykneij?  I've seen some 18th-century engravings that depict orchestras, and the orchestral seating arrangement is much different than for modern orchestras...

[Szykneij]

How were they seated, Szykneij?  I've seen some 18th-century engravings that depict orchestras, and the orchestral seating arrangement is much different than for modern orchestras...

This was a small ensemble, so its size probably had a lot to do with the seating arrangement.

The six violins, two (I think) violas and single cellist were in a semi-circle in front of the conductor. The bassist and organist were behind the cellist (stage left).

The woodwinds were in the second row in the center of the stage. The instrumentation of this group changed drastically between the three oratorios.

The three trumpets were behind the first violins (stage right), but were absent for the middle oratorio (II). The timpani player was to their left.

The chorus of 16 sat in two rows behind the orchestra on risers, with the soloists walking to the front of the stage when their turn came about.

[jochanaan]

This was a small ensemble, so its size probably had a lot to do with the seating arrangement.

The six violins, two (I think) violas and single cellist were in a semi-circle in front of the conductor. The bassist and organist were behind the cellist (stage left).

The woodwinds were in the second row in the center of the stage. The instrumentation of this group changed drastically between the three oratorios.

The three trumpets were behind the first violins (stage right), but were absent for the middle oratorio (II). The timpani player was to their left.

The chorus of 16 sat in two rows behind the orchestra on risers, with the soloists walking to the front of the stage when their turn came about.

Pretty modern seating, in other words; probably because there was a visible conductor.  In actual 18th-century music, generally there was "divided leadership;" the keyboardist kept the rhythm going and the first violinist cued the ensemble--much like in modern jazz bands.  And Heaven help the orchestra if those two worthies didn't see eye to eye!

One of the images I've seen, supposedly of Bach leading a mixed group, seem to show the instrumentalists in a sort of random cluster.  Another one (of a Haydn opera, if I remember correctly) showed the continuo (harpsichord or fortepiano, one cello and one bass) clustered on audience left and the rest of the orchestra in two lines facing each other, winds in one line, strings in the other.  I have never heard of a HIP group that even attempts to duplicate such seating arrangements...

[Szykneij]

Pretty modern seating, in other words; probably because there was a visible conductor.  In actual 18th-century music, generally there was "divided leadership;" the keyboardist kept the rhythm going and the first violinist cued the ensemble--much like in modern jazz bands.  And Heaven help the orchestra if those two worthies didn't see eye to eye!

One of the images I've seen, supposedly of Bach leading a mixed group, seem to show the instrumentalists in a sort of random cluster.  Another one (of a Haydn opera, if I remember correctly) showed the continuo (harpsichord or fortepiano, one cello and one bass) clustered on audience left and the rest of the orchestra in two lines facing each other, winds in one line, strings in the other.  I have never heard of a HIP group that even attempts to duplicate such seating arrangements...

Yes, this group operated as a modern orchestra does. The first violinist led the tuning of the ensemble, but after that, the conductor was in charge.

[S.Blake]

Nothing beats the original but then again the old musical instruments need a little improvement so I also like the new ones.

- Blake
Download Isochronic Tones

[Szykneij]

While out Christmas shopping today, I made a stop into the Goodwill store and came away with another nice vinyl find -- Music for Glass Harmonica by Bruno Hoffmann. Although the music has no Christmas themes, the sound of the instrument has a real Yuletide aura to it and is providing some pleasant listening after a somewhat stressful day.

Hoffmann is described in the liner notes as someone "who has done more than any man living to revive the fascinating eighteenth-century art of 'glass music'". I'm not sure of the issue date of this recording, but Hoffmann passed away in 1991.

The pieces are:
Mozart - Adagio and Rondo in C Minor, K.617
Mozart - Adagio in C, K.617a
J.F. Reichardt - Rondeau for Glass Harmonica, String Quartet and Double-Bass in B-flat Major
Karl Leopold Rollig - Quintet for Glass Harmonica and String Quartet in C minor
Johan Abraham Peter Schulz - Largo in C minor
Johann Gottlieb Naumann - Quartet for Glass Harmonica, Flute, Viola, and Cello in C Major

I particularly like the Reichardt and Naumann selections. The instrumentation seems to provide the best blend for the unusual timbre of the glass.

While these pieces were composed for the glass harmonica, it says Hoffmann plays a glass harp of his own design, so I'm not sure how authentic the performances are. The attacks of the notes seem to be a bit cleaner than what you get with the traditional instrument.

I tried to find out more about Hoffman's version, but the best I could do is this not-too-enlightening picture.

[Brahmsian]

Oh mercy me!  When, WHEN will thou createth a version of Mahler's Resurrection symphony, for small chamber ensemble, gut string instruments, plunky pianoforte and harpsichord continuo!

Please deliver before 11:59 PM, December 24th! 

[stingo]

I don't recall this being posted before (apologies if it has). I saw a video of Kujiken playing a viola da spalla/shoulder-cello...

http://www.youtube.com/v/VFZ0HHMIMn0

...and found out there's a recording too.

[asin]B001RKWIFC[/asin]

[SonicMan46]

I don't recall this being posted before (apologies if it has). I saw a video of Kujiken playing a viola da spalla/shoulder-cello...

http://www.youtube.com/v/VFZ0HHMIMn0

...and found out there's a recording too.

[asin]B001RKWIFC[/asin]

Hi Stingo - check back on pages 3/4 of this thread HERE - plenty of discussion on Kujiken, the instrument, and that disc, but cannot recall if a youtube link was offered, so thanks!  I probably should pull out that recording this weekend for a listen - 

[stingo]

Hi Stingo - check back on pages 3/4 of this thread HERE - plenty of discussion on Kujiken, the instrument, and that disc, but cannot recall if a youtube link was offered, so thanks!  I probably should pull out that recording this weekend for a listen - 

Thanks SonicMan. At 10+ pages I wasn't sure if I'd have time to sift through the thread. Thanks for info though - will check it out.

[milk]

I don't recall this being posted before (apologies if it has). I saw a video of Kujiken playing a viola da spalla/shoulder-cello...

http://www.youtube.com/v/VFZ0HHMIMn0

...and found out there's a recording too.

[asin]B001RKWIFC[/asin]

I put this up in the "youtube video library." Nice to see it here. I sldo posted a video of Bezuidenhout and Padmore doing Schumann lieder on the same TV show. That also displays the use of a period instrument - an Erard - to stay on topic.