Mahler was a gasbag

[DavidW]

Well Bruce I also recorded the Nova show, if I'm still interested after that I'll read the book.

[DavidRoss]

Well Bruce I also recorded the Nova show, if I'm still interested after that I'll read the book.

Sounds as if y'all would also be interested in this: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/musicinstinct/

as well as in Levitin's book:



This Is Your Brain on Music

[snyprrr]

Don't let the ADL get a hold of this thread.

[DavidW]

Ah cool Dave, I might check 'em out!  Oh I see a very "helpful" review of This Is Your Brain on Music where over a hundred people think that it's insightful to nitpick a couple of faults.  Speaking as a teacher, it's very hard even if you're an expert to prattle on about a subject for along time and not make a single mistake.  Even the most insightful textbooks on a subject will have many editions before all of the mistakes are removed.  Sorry, rant over.

[Josquin des Prez]

Don't let the ADL get a hold of this thread.

The ADL is too busy harassing Arizona lawmakers over anti-immigration laws:

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1184326

[Sergeant Rock]

Why is he popular?

If you don't know, we aren't going to explain. The Supreme Order of Holy Mahlerites is an exclusive club. Unbelievers are shunned.

Sarge

[Dr. Dread]

Unbelievers are shunned.

Typical.

[DavidRoss]

If you don't know, we aren't going to explain. The Supreme Order of Holy Mahlerites is an exclusive club. Unbelievers are shunned.

Even those who love but don't worship his music are admitted only to social functions open to the general public.  We never get to see them dancing naked with cowbells around the splendid Gustave Klimt art nouveau altar topped by a life-sized nude statue of Alma reclining while Gus hovers above, trapped between heavenly delights and earthly pleasures.  Sigh. 

[Florestan]

I like Mahler but I'm afraid of Mahlerites... 

[marvinbrown]

 Oh God here I go again having to defend another composer's music.  Threads of this sort sadden me because they could discourage newbies to Mahler's music from ever exploring it. so here I go again...

 No Mahler is NOT a gasbag!

 No Mahler's music is NOT bloated and "too much"- DavidRoss are you and I ever going to agree on anything in this world??

 Yes Mahler's music IS heavily influenced by the Liszt/Wagner school of music but it is unique......much like Dvorak, Mahler infused his symphonies with ethnic (in Mahler's case Bohemian) motifs and themes, it is a joy to hear.

 so come on enough of these inane threads...........

 marvin

[jochanaan]

...To me, a great symphony, like a great novel or play or movie, should be so compelling and enthralling that it's over scarcely after it seems to have begun...

To some of us, that describes Mahler exactly.

[Florestan]

   much like Dvorak, Mahler infused his symphonies with ethnic (in Mahler's case Bohemian) motifs and themes, it is a joy to hear.

Dvorak was even more of a Bohemian than Mahler, wasn't he? 

[karlhenning]

FWIW, the 'lever' for me into Mahler (back in the deeps of time, as it now seems) was the Rückert-lieder, which are marvels of delicacy.

[DavidRoss]

 No Mahler's music is NOT bloated and "too much"- DavidRoss are you and I ever going to agree on anything in this world??

I certainly think there's hope for you, Marvin.  Unlike some of our more opinionated members, you have demonstrated the capacity to learn--though, as with all of us, thinking you already know severely inhibits the process.  

I've quoted a passage from the post you're objecting to below.  If you clear your mind of prejudices and then read what I actually said, you will find at least two items of interest in relation to your complaint:

(1) I like Mahler.  I like him very much...so much, in fact, that I regard him as one of the supremely great symphonists.
(2) In the absence of universal aesthetic standards, I make quite clear that my opinion of Mahler's bloat is just that--opinion.  My opinion may be informed by relevant education and experience, but it is still only opinion and not some inviolate fact that can be confirmed or disproved by spectral analysis or appeal to the Oracle at Delphi.

Even though I love Mahler's music, ranking him unhesitatingly as one of my three favorite symphonists (with Sibelius and Beethoven) and among my dozen or so personal faves among all composers, I do not think he was the greatest of craftsmen and I believe that his symphonies suffer from bloat.  I understand that his late-Romantic aesthetic worshipped artistic self-indulgence and excess of all sorts.  I also understand that the dramatic scope of his symphonies owes more to opera than to the symphonic tradition, and that compared to a four-hour opera (especially one of Wagner's, Mahler's model in his youth) a ninety-minute symphony may seem downright pithy.  But in spite of understanding the underlying causes of what--to my personal aesthetic sense--is excess and bloat, I still think his symphonies suffer from it, insofar as it creates an impediment to their appreciation and enjoyment. 

I suspect that if you make a similar effort to recognize the distinction between your opinions and fact, you might discover that our views are not nearly so far apart as you presently imagine.    And you might even discover some merit in the point of view I present.  

[Florestan]

FWIW, the 'lever' for me into Mahler (back in the deeps of time, as it now seems) was the Rückert-lieder, which are marvels of delicacy.

For me it was his Third --- which "back in the deeps of time" and on first hearing I valued above any of Beethoven's symphonies (I was a Beethoven fanatic at that time, mind you!)

[marvinbrown]

I suspect that if you make a similar effort to recognize the distinction between your opinions and fact, you might discover that our views are not nearly so far apart as you presently imagine.    And you might even discover some merit in the point of view I present.  

  Ok David I'll let you win this argument for now as I have bigger fish to fry  ....namely, to get ALL Mahler newbies and those who are less inclined to explore Mahler's music to give this music a chance.  If I am able to change one negative perception I have served my purpose in this thread!

  marvin

[Gurn Blanston]

Dvorak was even more of a Bohemian than Mahler, wasn't he? 

Truly, Dvorak was the epitome of Bohemianism. And not a gasbag besides.

[DavidRoss]

  Ok David I'll let you win this argument for now as I have bigger fish to fry 

Your graciousness knows no bounds.  0:)

[Bulldog]

Why is he popular?

A rather dishonest question not rating a serious reply.

[Florestan]

Truly, Dvorak was the epitome of Bohemianism. And not a gasbag besides.

...and I'll have him over Mahler anytime.