Author Topic: Complex Indian classical music  (Read 4152 times)

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Offline Josquin des Prez

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Complex Indian classical music
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:32:24 PM »
So far i have one album by Ustad Imrat Khan (Lalita) which is outstanding, really complex and profound, and a bunch of stuff by Ravi Shankar, which, conversely, i found to be hollow and superficial. I had no idea Indian classical music was this variable, and i need some guidance here.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 01:34:02 AM by Josquin des Prez »

snyprrr

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 06:16:10 PM »
So far i have one album by Ustad Imrat Khan (Lalita) which is outstanding, really complex and profound, and a bunch of stuff by Ravi Shankar, which, conversely, i found to be hollow and superficial. I had no idea Indian classical music was this variable, and i need some guidance here.

Did you miss out on the myriad Nimbus cds of Indian Classical? That's a one stop shop there! ;)

Try any 'Ahir Bhiarav' raga. I believe the most basic rendition of this term is a typical major key scale: it's interesting what they do with the exact same tones.

snyprrr

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 06:18:31 PM »
And, basically, find an (Indian) instrument whose sound you like, and you should be able to find it in an 'Ahir Bhiarav' raga, if you like.

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 06:25:12 PM »
And, basically, find an (Indian) instrument whose sound you like, and you should be able to find it in an 'Ahir Bhiarav' raga, if you like.

That's not how i roll. I'm looking for Indian classical music that's actually good, not any Indian classical music. I'm thinking of going by artist.

Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 06:33:50 PM »
So far i have one album by Ustad Imrat Khan (Lalita) which is outstanding, really complex and profound, and a bunch of stuff by Ravi Shankar, which, conversely, i found to be hollow and superficial. I had no idea Indian classical music was this variable, and i need some guidance here.

Lalit is a very chromatic raag - the scale in Western terms is flat 2, maj 3, nat 4, flat 5, maj 6, maj 7 http://chandrakantha.com/raga_raag/lalit/lalith.html

what raags was Ravi Shankar playing?

the most sophisticated sitar player was Vilayet Khan (if you can abide his occasional singing)

if you want to learn more about N Indian music, Rajan Parrikar is your Indian soul mate:

Quote
In the realm of melodic music the tradition of India is without equal. Nothing else comes close. The Europeans and Americans, the self-appointed adjudicators of every activity under the blazing sun, who once thought their finest melodies to be works of high Art, have now discovered, to their utter dismay, that they have done no better than wrestle with kindergarten level ditties when they have not been otherwise churning out noise.

http://www.parrikar.org/raga-central



Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline Opus106

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 08:44:29 PM »
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 01:33:29 AM »
Ha, found another one i like. Ali Akbar Khan.


Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 01:34:42 AM »
Merge time: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17099.0.html!

Not sure that's a good idea. I changed the title to reflect the more specific subject of this thread.

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 01:46:21 AM »
what raags was Ravi Shankar playing?

Not sure. Some of the performances i heard had a virtuoso quality but the music was still simplistic. Others even included saccharine (western) orchestral backing.

if you want to learn more about N Indian music, Rajan Parrikar is your Indian soul mate:

http://www.parrikar.org/raga-central

Haha. Seems like my type of guy.

Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 01:57:27 PM »
Not sure. Some of the performances i heard had a virtuoso quality but the music was still simplistic. Others even included saccharine (western) orchestral backing.



RS did alot of crossover stuff

some raags are more serious than others - would recommend the Kanada Group (Darbari, Asavari, Kafi Kanada etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanada_(raga_group) ), Madhuvanti, Shree (or Sri), the todi raags as places to start - Kanada raags are either in the aeolian or dorian modes while the others above are non-western scales

also check out Amjad Ali Khan, the current preeminent sarod player

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/fJn9RwuQsk4" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/fJn9RwuQsk4</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pYNdZNydpSI" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pYNdZNydpSI</a>
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2011, 03:28:19 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobK_8bIDvk

God this guy is amazing. I think he may be my favored Indian musician at this point. I got hold to both his Indian archive release and his complete signature series, both of which are great, but the latter in particular was startling. His late style is so melancholic, so longing in its emotional quality. Its really touching at times.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 02:19:10 AM by Josquin des Prez »

Offline escher

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 02:28:23 PM »
In the realm of melodic music the tradition of India is without equal. Nothing else comes close. The Europeans and Americans, the self-appointed adjudicators of every activity under the blazing sun, who once thought their finest melodies to be works of high Art, have now discovered, to their utter dismay, that they have done no better than wrestle with kindergarten level ditties when they have not been otherwise churning out noise.

this sounds like fanaticism. I'd like to know what are the for him those best european and american melodies that he consider "kindergarten level". Even because in the european and american tradition melody is tied to harmony and modulations.

Offline jowcol

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 02:46:42 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobK_8bIDvk

God this guy is amazing. I think he may be my favored Indian musician at this point. I got hold to both his Indian archive release and his complete signature series, both of which are great, but the latter in particular was startling. His late style is so melancholic, so longing in its emotional quality. Its really touching at times.

I'm very happy that you've landed here.  Classical Indian music is a very pure and powerful tradition for me.

Although you may not want to worry about all of the different styles and traditions to start with, you will likely want to keep a track of the difference between the northern (Hindustani) and southern (Carnatic) traditions.   I lean more towards the Northern- to me is sounds more complex and develops to more of a fever pitch-- but that's just my take.  I'm guessing that, if you are enjoying Ali Akbar Khan, that you also may be drawn to the Hindstani style.


In terms of Ragas, Madhuvanti, Todi, and Malkuans are faves of mine.   

One thing that some people have trouble adjusting to is the Alap-- the free meter opening section.  Once I got used to it, it became my favorite part, and I now feel cheated if the Tabla comes in too soon.  PLaying an Alap is not as easy as it may appear-- it requires incredible concentration.

Anything with Zakkir Hussein on Tabla tends to get my attention-- he's a fantastic player, and tends to elevate every soloist he plays with.

I'd echo the choice of Viliyat Khan for Sitar.


My absolute favorite Indian artist is Shivkumar Sharma-- he plays the Santur, which is related to the hammered dulcimer (or a cimbalom without the pedals), and was pretty much responsible for adding that instrument to the repertoire of Hindustani classical music.  If I could only have one album of his, it would be his Rag Madhuvanti / Rag Misra Tilang on Nimbus.  SOund is great, the moods of the two ragas are realliy like night an day in terms of contrast, some complex rhythms (not just teental-- the 16 beat one), and a full sample of his technique.



I may be biased since I play the western version of the Santur, and he's simply mind blowing, and the single biggest influence on my playing-- although I don't deserve to live on the same continent with him.   One thing he did was develop a "glide" technique to get teh feeling of slurs and bending between notes on a fixed pitch instrument.  I've ordered the same type of mallets that he uses, but have never been able to come close.

This first video is a long (70 minute) performance.  I included it because it shows off, in the first few minutes, the "glide" technique of his in the Alap.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/GWVYzFte_Dc" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/GWVYzFte_Dc</a>


If you just want to "cut to the chase" , here is the Gat (fast portion with Tabla) of a Raga with Sharma and Zakir Hussein.  In the first minutes, although the camera is on the Tabla, Sharma is showing off his "dammering" technique, where he is damping his strings with a free finger a split-second after hitting them, which makes my head hurt thinking about it.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/6rG3Rpv78DA" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/6rG3Rpv78DA</a>


The flutist Hariprasad Chaurasia is also a monster player.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/U5h19sgkuGk" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/U5h19sgkuGk</a>


As well as the slide guitar player Debashish Bhattacharya, who is a monster.  This is a nice excerpt:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1DoKX-ObX5g&amp;" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/1DoKX-ObX5g&amp;</a>

"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 06:16:35 PM »


My absolute favorite Indian artist is Shivkumar Sharma-- he plays the Santur, which is related to the hammered dulcimer (or a cimbalom without the pedals), and was pretty much responsible for adding that instrument to the repertoire of Hindustani classical music.  If I could only have one album of his, it would be his Rag Madhuvanti / Rag Misra Tilang on Nimbus.  SOund is great, the moods of the two ragas are realliy like night an day in terms of contrast, some complex rhythms (not just teental-- the 16 beat one), and a full sample of his technique.





That is a great CD (one I need to replace as mine is damaged).  The Misra Tilang is about my fav piece of recorded ICM.  (BTW do you know what the raag Tilang is mixed (misra) with?  Have a few recordings of Tilang but they don't sound much like this one
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline jowcol

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Re: Indian classical music
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 06:17:30 AM »
Not sure. Some of the performances i heard had a virtuoso quality but the music was still simplistic. Others even included saccharine (western) orchestral backing.

Although Ravi Shankar was my "gateway" to ICM,  a lot of the crossover stuff of his doesn't work for me as well these days.  Now that I appreciate the full strength versions, I don't need them watered down.     I'd also have to say that I don't get the feel for some of his fast playing that I get from other artists.  But, he's capable of playing some very gorgeous work with a deep emotional subtext-- at least, that's how I perceive it.  His Alap that opens the clip below never bores me-- it's amazing. 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/36_-zx_wcLg" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/36_-zx_wcLg</a>




I also had a cassette with his interpretation of Raga Mallkuans  (one of a bunch I got when the local Indian grocery store remaindered its classical taps to focus more on pop music).  Absolutely fantastic.   
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Offline San Antone

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2015, 05:43:20 AM »
Remembering Ustad Bismillah Khan : shehnai master, who died at the age of 90 on August 20, 2006.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eWTYvF1qNLA" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eWTYvF1qNLA</a>

Offline jochanaan

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2015, 09:01:11 AM »
Try Anoushka Shankar, the daughter of Ravi Shankar.  She is a truly amazing player! ;D
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Offline San Antone

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Re: Complex Indian classical music
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 07:20:55 PM »
Featuring a whos-who of Indian classical music, this series of recordings is excellent:

Morning Ragas in four volumes



Afternoon Ragas in four volumes



Night Ragas in four volumes



Can be heard on most streamign services as well as MusicIndiaOnline, an excellent place to hear all kinds of music from India.