Henze's Benz

[Cato]

A very amusing thread title! Henze baked beans? Haven't bought them for years. Must buy some!!

Well...I will avoid certain jokes here! 0:)

[snyprrr]

From the "What Are You Listening To?" topic:

Certainly there is more of interest here in the Fifth than in the Sixth Symphony, but these few interesting sections are for me, at least, barely above the level of "mildly."  The slow movement is perhaps the one where Henze shows some originality.  I will confess to thinking that - again - parts of the work would be fine for a movie score, e.g.  a Mike Hammer-private detective type sneaking down dark alleys and coming across horrific crimes.

4-5 have a nice blue-green anonymity to them; I would take them for a drive on an ominous looking day. Maybe I'm just not feeling picky about Henze right now, even though he may have been a major prick. Looks like I'll take that DG Cycle with me today!

I certainly don't "like" him for his originality: it's that mid century anonymity I like. But, a little goes a long way, hence, no further Henze purchases have been forthcoming. Got rid of the SONY 'Requiem' a looong time ago, probably because I have no time for atheist religiosity.

I'd still be pretty sure he was a paedo... hangin round playgrounds type...


Maybe it's his huge... uh... output that has me? I'm sure I would listen if someone gave me that whole DG Box.

[Cato]

4-5 have a nice blue-green anonymity to them; I would take them for a drive on an ominous looking day.

I certainly don't "like" him for his originality: it's that mid century anonymity I like. But, a little goes a long way....

Yes, not a bad description and conclusion: similar to my latest reactions.  Because of his (relative) fame - he vied with Stockhausen for the title of Greatest Living German Composer in the later 20th century, and both were born in the late 1920's - one has the feeling that his works must be investigated.

[snyprrr]

Yes, not a bad description and conclusion: similar to my latest reactions.  Because of his (relative) fame - he vied with Stockhausen for the title of Greatest Living German Composer in the later 20th century,and both were born in the late 1920's - one has the feeling that his works must be investigated.

I would venture that the "Elite" would prefer Henze to Stockhausen, being as Henze seems to be more of a beurocrat(where's the "a"?), a wonk, catering to a certain crowd; KHS not so much?

party line Heinz they call him

[bwv 1080]

Feldman and rape? WTF? where are the sources? 

Bunita Marcus revealed it a couple of years ago:

http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/

[Maestro267]

Ah, Lebrecht. He is to classical music what Blabbermouth (a "news" site) is to progressive metal. Sensationalist, often taking single lines from interviews and blowing them out of all proportion. Take it with more than a pinch of salt.

[Karl Henning]

. . . even though he may have been a major prick.

Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 

Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:

Men without politics would be animals and art without politics would be trivial . . . Art isn't involved in itself.  If there are H-bombs and concentration camps art either acknowledges this (and makes these things its subject, literally or analytically) or it deliberately turns its back on them and so falsifies reality.  It can't turn aside and pursue its own path, it has no path.  Art is realism or it is trivial, and there's nothing much in between.  We could re-write the parable of the man who fell among thieves: an artist came down the road, saw the wounded man in the gutter, crossed over to pass by on the other side, and fell in a ditch and broke his neck.

Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together.  And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.

There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.

My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance").  Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.

"Social relevance": why?  In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.

One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits.  And, in principle, I agree.

That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.

[ritter]

Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 

Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:

Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together.  And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.

There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.

My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance").  Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.

"Social relevance": why?  In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.

One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits.  And, in principle, I agree.

That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.

Very nicely put, Karl, very nicely indeed!

[bwv 1080]

Cross Post:

Just finished Guy Rickard's Hindemith, Hartmann and Henze (Oh, My!)

I was rather hoping that this would (in line with similar reading about this or that composer in the past) quicken more of a sympathy with Henze.  The absorbing reading about Hindemith and Hartmann I entirely counted on;  and on the whole, the intertwined, chronological narrative I found very well advised.  Perhaps the problem (for me) is simply, that Henze was determined to politicize art (a requiem to honor Che, for out loud crying);  this is, sadly, in line with a like problem in our day, the determination to favor (and support) art which is "socially relevant."

A kind of Eugenics in Art, it feels like.

As a result, and given the structure of the book, the last 50-ish pages were rather a chore.

I suppose I'll try to read it again, five years hence perhaps.  The tough break for Henze is, the book has whetted my appetite for Hindemith and Hartmann, but quite firmly put me off any short-term interest in Henze.  In fact, it rather has me feeling that the Henze in my library at present, is probably as much as I shall ever need.

Another thought here - Hindemith and Hartmann were mature adults when Hitler came to power while Henze grew up under it with a father who was an ardent Nazi.  A reaction toward an opposite political pole stemming from a lack of grounding becomes understandable

[Karl Henning]

Another thought here - Hindemith and Hartmann were mature adults when Hitler came to power while Henze grew up under it with a father who was an ardent Nazi.  A reaction toward an opposite political pole stemming from a lack of grounding becomes understandable

Aye, that is fair.

[snyprrr]

From the "What Are you Listening To?" topic:

I gave the Henze Symphony #6 another chance.

It has a great amount of hin und her.  Snippets of it might be useful for the soundtrack of a Transformers movie.    In general, I was bored.  c. 25 minutes of whooping, whooshing, clicking, popping, blipping, blooping, and other experimentalist cliches from the 1950's.  Beim besten Willen I could find nothing coherent about it, except perhaps as a symbol of the chaos of "revolution."  Supposedly the symphony has a North Vietnamese song in it somewhere, and "Cuban rhythms," but these are basically submerged in the chaos and, as a result, become unimportant.  An electric guitar has a few blips and bloops here and there, and a banjo goes plink plunk now and then.  I suppose they were thrown into the maelstrom because it was 1969. 

The description of it on Wikipedia gives you an impression that you might hear something a la Aaron Copland, but...no, you won't!

See:

https://www.youtube.com/v/w3nrruYvcpQ&list=PLlaJDxtt_sFPGsK0aiS2BaWCB2ymEjOjR

Took the Box... it was No.4 that I've liked previous, in about seven linked sections, much like a ballet. Yes, I can hear FilmNoir there. Again, its anonymity is, for me, the best thing going. It does sound like Hartmann-Lite in a way. I still see dark blues and greens; I'm sure there's better examples of this sound (Prokofiev's No.6?), but I'm not kicking it out of bed just yet.

I'll check No.5 today.

Every now and again, you surprise, simply by speaking to the point 

Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:

Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together.  And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.

There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.

My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance").  Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.

"Social relevance": why?  In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.

One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits.  And, in principle, I agree.

That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.

See, I wooould be one of those to only Compose if I had a "mission". I do find it hard to even contemplate a... Viola Sonata,... but, I find it easy peasy to come up with a work for three singers, strings, trombones, and percussion, and call it 'Pilate'.

For "Songs" I need a broken heart; for "serious music" I personally do need... "politics" (if that's even the correct word). I have to believe that Bach's Christianity is in good part responsible FOR Bach. Just like Henze's atheism is responsible for his 'Requiem'.

So- there's MY problem: no matter how "good the music is" in Henze's atheism, I simply do not care for the politico-religious idea behind the music. And, surely, if I investigate, I will find a LackOfGod in his choice of intervals and rhythms, a lack of God so profound as to make the piece practically worthless...

HOWEVER- I still think Sting can write a good song, even though, again, I hear he can be a major prick. BUT I DO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DEVILS WRITING HEAVENLY MUSIC.


Karl, why don't you write an Opera called 'Potsdam'? That would be funny, with the 3Tenors playing the Big3. LOL, I just cracked myself up...


...beats 'Brokeback'


I dunno, I'm torn over "Art for Art's Sake" this morning... I sure do revel in pure sound, and such... sounds to me like I'm a big time hypocrite!!

Bunita Marcus revealed it a couple of years ago:

http://slippedisc.com/2014/12/us-composer-accuses-another-of-sexual-violence/

'It's A Man's World'



It's certainly best this morning if I don't comment, I guarantee my response will not be PC.

[Karl Henning]

I dunno, I'm torn over "Art for Art's Sake" this morning... I sure do revel in pure sound, and such... sounds to me like I'm a big time hypocrite!!

I am, to be sure, ready to bestow evocative titles upon my musical work.

But, there is also a reason why I did not give my First Symphony a sexy subtitle.

[Mr Bloom]

Today's lesson in tiresome polemics:

Henze & Edward Bond published this twaddle propaganda together.  And you will pardon me for thinking that the composer, who was compelled to participate in Hitler Youth reportedly against his will, ought to have known better.

There is no need in this epoch to argue with Henze's shallow assertions, and the Dick Cheneyesque fallacy of thinking you have proven an assertion merely by repeating it, re-phrased.

My point is: Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. I do my own work pretty much beneath the radar of an environment which primarily rewards shallow reference to current events ("social relevance").  Not all of it is as puritanical in mission as the Henze screed, but that is not much of any matter.

"Social relevance": why?  In large part because, "Ooh, look—this piece is about [insert activist concern here]—neat-o!" is a much easier process than digesting and evaluating a work which is "just" a piece of music.

One can argue that I might listen to the best of Henze's music just on its own merits.  And, in principle, I agree.

That said, my artistic objections to and personal repulsion from the screed above, result in a much-reduced need to investigate even the best of the artist's work, for the foreseeable future.

Things are more complicated than this : there was in the 80's a polemic between Henze and Lachenmann, the former defending his right to, at times, write something that is "pretty" and nothing else, while the latter thought that anything that could be considered as "beautiful" was "bourgeois" bullshit and artistic failure (and thought Henze was a "bourgeois" and useless composer). At least, it shows that Henze didn't follow the creed you think he did.

Plus in that quote, Henze never say that all art must be "socially relevant", but that art should acknowledges reality, which is a totally different thing. Henze wrote plenty of pure music, without any link to activism, even in his most leftist period.

Finally, on the sixth symphony : the recording doesn't do it justice. It's written for two separated orchestras, and the recording makes the two sound like one giant blurb. I haven't heard it live, but I read the score, and it makes much more sense on the page than on recording. I believe it would also makes more sense live, with the two orchestras clearly separated.

[Karl Henning]

Things are more complicated than this : there was in the 80's a polemic between Henze and Lachenmann, the former defending his right to, at times, write something that is "pretty" and nothing else, while the latter thought that anything that could be considered as "beautiful" was "bourgeois" bullshit and artistic failure (and thought Henze was a "bourgeois" and useless composer). At least, it shows that Henze didn't follow the creed you think he did.

Plus in that quote, Henze never say that all art must be "socially relevant", but that art should acknowledges reality, which is a totally different thing. Henze wrote plenty of pure music, without any link to activism, even in his most leftist period.

Finally, on the sixth symphony : the recording doesn't do it justice. It's written for two separated orchestras, and the recording makes the two sound like one giant blurb. I haven't heard it live, but I read the score, and it makes much more sense on the page than on recording. I believe it would also makes more sense live, with the two orchestras clearly separated.

Thanks for all this.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.5 (1962)

I heard this as "new music" yesterday, had totally forgot anything about it. Hey, I don't know what the big beef is,- had you told me this was BAZimmermann or something I would have cheerfully acceded its worthiness. I guess, with so much else to hate, I can't find a reason not to like this one. I liked the spitting brass in the 1st, the quietude of the 2nd, and the 3rd isn't as obvious as it could be. I don't know, I think Symphonies from the 60s have a peculiarly intriguing set of "impetus factors" that weren't around earlier; I hear here a Symphony that could only have been written in a post-WWII era paradigm. LOL, all that sounds like a load of bs!!!

I think I may actually enjoy all of 1-6. The 5 String Quartets are a much tougher nut to crack, with some quite dreary stretches of greyness and complexity.

[chadfeldheimer]

I agree with some on this thread, that Henze can be a mixed bag. Some of his works today seem a bit dated, regarding sound and/or message. Nevertheless there are quite some works for the goody bag. The requiem i.e. is one of my favorite late 20th century compositions.

[snyprrr]

Undine

This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?

Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?


Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain!

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.1 (1947)

I don't know what's not to like about this. It's the 1962 Chamber Orchestra orchestration , and has a pleasant Stravinskian air, especially the woodwinds in the slow mvmt.

Well, I mean, really,... off to No.2!

[Johnnie Burgess]

Undine

This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?

Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?


Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain!

That box set is on spotify.

[bwv 1080]

Undine

This receives prominence because of the dedication of Oliver Knussen. Many times I've been tempted to get it. I believe I've at least sampled some of it, but I can't recall and "think" it must sound a bit like the Symphonies 1-4. If I saw it for $1 I would be very tempted. Who has the most experience with this muisc and can articulate its strengths and weakness?

Can we achieve consensus here? Masterpiece, or SnoozeFest?


Seriously, if someone GAVE me that DG Henze Box, I wouldn't complain!

Masterpiece.  Same style as the early symphonies.  If you look at the prices of Undine alone and the box, the box is a steal.