Author Topic: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4 - one more  (Read 18407 times)

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M forever

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Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4 - one more
« on: July 10, 2007, 04:47:47 AM »
Hello Mystery Players and Mystery Lurkers!

This time I have some great clips for you of Schumann's 4th symphony which was specifically requested as the subject of Mystery Orchestra. It is the complete first movement.

Or actually, I only have *one* great clip for you at this time, but there will be more soon, provided I find them in my chaos collection.
Maybe you will find this an interesting recording. Or maybe not.


MO17 A
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ywyfsd
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 11:11:06 PM by M forever »

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 05:24:00 AM »
Hello, M forever! Nice clip. I love Schumann, so this is a treat.

First thing to strike you is the sound of the orchestra - it's mean, clean and lean. The nonsense of 'Schumann couldn't orchestrate' firmly laid to rest. The conductor must be the sort of guy who studies the score in its manuscript version and checks for mistakes in the published one(s). It almost sounds as if the piece is played on period instruments - especially the timpani are very striking (dry, strong). Phrasing is very good, all the lines stand out clearly, build-up is perfect. I'm thinking of two conductors who like to 'clean up' scores...

Those are my first impressions.

Jez
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

M forever

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 05:40:44 AM »
Welcome to Mystery Orchestra! This is the place where you can say your opinion and I am not allowed to contradict you. In fact, I am not allowed to say much at all except for asking questions. These are never meant to "steer" players, I just sometimes ask people to clarify statements or elaborate on observations. I can only say my opinions at the end.
Yes, those are strict rules, at least for me, but I can't complain because I made them myself. Well, I guess I could complain to myself, but that would be rather silly.

Feel free to elaborate on your first impressions if you want, but if you do, please create a new post, don't edit the old one, otherwise your new points could get overlooked.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 06:03:46 AM »
It DOES sound a little HIP, but on second hearing I don't think so, the strings have way too much body to be a true HIP ensemble. I like the sound of the timpani starting at about 0:50, it just sounds right with it's sort of slightly dry sound like Jezetha said. The transition to the main allegro is very well done, too often those piano sustained notes in the basses get lost or sound woobly, not so here. Also the allegro sounds just right in tempo (too often it is taken way too slowly). I like the distinct flute that can be heard accompanying the strings at the allegro, you almost never hear the flute under that wall of violin sound. The trombone(?) discord that launches the development could use a bit more power. Not that this orchestra doesn't have might mind you, as you can tell around the 5 minute mark. If I am not mistaken this is the later edition and not the 1841 version used by the likes of period instrument gurus like Goodman and Harnoncourt (who actually used modern instruments) so that rules those two out. Those two also take the intro at a faster tempo.

I think it's a very good performance, too bad no exposition repeat which would make it a great performance. No guess as to who it could be without going back and listening to a bunch of Schumann 4ths that I have.  Tempo wise it sounds like Karajan, even the bridge from the intro to the allegro sounds like Karajan (who liked to emphasis the bass notes) but I don't remember hearing such prominent winds in the Karajan recording. Anyway I remember Karajan really letting the brass loose at the launch of the development so it's probably not him.

Drasko

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 09:11:28 AM »
Could this actually be Mahler's reorchestration? I haven't heard it before but there is much more prominence for winds, brass and timpani here than what I'm used to. And those brassy dark horns could indeed be Leipzig. Tempo is bit more sprightly than I usually associate with Chailly but again could be him, he has fine ear for detail.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 09:18:35 AM »
I think you are absolutely right Drasko ! How else do you explain that flute solo starting the main allegro. Boy you are the man !
Conductors seem to take certain liberties with Schumann's works so whatever difference I hear in orchestration I never know whether they are just the conductor emphasising certain things or whether they changed the score.

Offline Soundproof

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 09:25:46 AM »
I don't have access to the score(s). Anyone have links to one?

However, this symphony has a story, in that Madame Schumann preferred one version, and Brahms preferred another, earlier one, which he published behind her back, so to speak. Could that be what's throwing you, Drasko?

Fun, this.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 09:34:38 AM »
I don't have access to the score(s). Anyone have links to one?

However, this symphony has a story, in that Madame Schumann preferred one version, and Brahms preferred another, earlier one, which he published behind her back, so to speak. Could that be what's throwing you, Drasko?

Fun, this.

I read the same story also. Clara didn't even want to include the earlier 1841 version in the catalogue of Schumann's works. For some reason Schumann got zero attention with that version so he went about revising it, trying desperately to get it performed. Brahms, however, liked the 1841 version much more. Nowadays other than Goodman and Harnoncourt does anybody else use the 1841 version? I like both. In the revised version the bridge passage linking the intro and the allegro in the first movement comes back in the final movement, but this time Schumann teases us by launching a totally different allegro. So the surprise factor is even more so I think.

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 11:20:58 AM »
I heard a radio broadcast last year, of the 1841 version of Schumann's Fourth by (wait for it) Frans Brüggen. It could be him...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Bonehelm

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2007, 11:28:54 AM »
All I can say is that this is very different from the Karajan version I heard.

M forever

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 11:29:38 AM »
In how far?


However, this symphony has a story, in that Madame Schumann preferred one version, and Brahms preferred another, earlier one, which he published behind her back, so to speak. Could that be what's throwing you, Drasko?

Could be. Or maybe Drasko is right. Or maybe not. Or maybe he is right about the version, but not about the performers? Or the performers, but not the version? Or maybe not.

Here is more awesome Schumann 4 for you. I believe you will find these clips interesting comparisons.
Or maybe not.


MO18 B
http://preview.tinyurl.com/283fzc

MO18 C
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2albrj

MO18 D
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yt97yb

Offline Soundproof

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 11:40:16 AM »
Anyone have a link to a score on the net?

M forever

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 12:03:05 PM »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 12:25:08 PM »
Here.

Are you sure? Where do I go after I get to the website that you directed???

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2007, 12:36:26 PM »
I heard a radio broadcast last year, of the 1841 version of Schumann's Fourth by (wait for it) Frans Brüggen. It could be him...
There is not a snowball's chance in hell it is Brueggen, not if it's the Orch. of the Age of Enlightenment. After listening to the clip and then several others in my collection it HAS to be reorchestrated. I don't know how many reorchestrated Schumann versions are out there, Chailly is one, I think BIS has another one but I don't remember the conductor off the top of my head and I have not heard either one.

Bonehelm

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Offline Soundproof

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2007, 12:44:42 PM »
Are you sure? Where do I go after I get to the website that you directed???

The blödsinnige M is funnin' in his inimitable style. You wonder how bipolar it's possible to get ... I mean, it's his thread.  ;D
Found those earlier, Bonehelm. But they're for the piano, transcriptions.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 12:46:56 PM by Soundproof »

Bonehelm

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2007, 12:49:01 PM »
Oh yes. I didn't even see the title. Oh well, free full scores aren't easy to get...

M forever

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2007, 10:17:39 PM »
The blödsinnige M is funnin' in his inimitable style. You wonder how bipolar it's possible to get ...

Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' TO ME?


M forever

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Re: Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2007, 10:30:21 PM »
There is not a snowball's chance in hell it is Brueggen, not if it's the Orch. of the Age of Enlightenment. After listening to the clip and then several others in my collection it HAS to be reorchestrated. I don't know how many reorchestrated Schumann versions are out there, Chailly is one, I think BIS has another one but I don't remember the conductor off the top of my head and I have not heard either one.

You may be right, it could be the reorchestrated version. Or maybe not. But how do you know this is even an available recording? Maybe it is. Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it is only avalaible from special sellers. Or maybe not. Maybe I didn't even get it from a commercially available CD? Or maybe I did.

Whether you decide it is this version or that, from this point only analyzing the orchestral style and musical content will bring you a step further. You rejected the suggestion that we might be hearing the OAE here. Obviously, I can't say if that is correct or not. But you seem convinced. What does it sound like then?

Don't forget there are more incredibly awesome Schumann clips waiting to be listened to.