Author Topic: 1950 to 2000  (Read 43424 times)

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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2014, 02:36:21 PM »
I love this work by Lutoslawski:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/g-WPqcWaNks" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/g-WPqcWaNks</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/1E9RLv1D0Fk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/1E9RLv1D0Fk</a>
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2014, 04:03:39 PM »
Fantastic!  Thanks for posting.

You're welcome. I believe this work was composed between 1989 and 1990. All of Lutoslawski's works for voice and orchestra are worth hearing IMHO.
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

kishnevi

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2014, 06:15:08 PM »
Yes, really. Gruppen is unique combination and integration of many musical elements composed in such a way that hadn't been done before. Top down it is a perfectly realized and a completely unique composition. Both of you are absolutely on the wrong track.

Well, yes.  Meaning,  I should hope so.   But Mozart's Symphony No. 40 is a unique combination and integration of many musical elements composed in such a way that hadn't been done before, as were most of the preceding 39.   Same for Haydn,  same for Bruckner, same for CPE Bach, same for.....

Spatialized music is a very old principle, beginning from the moment the monks on the right side of the choir started chanting something different from the monks on the left side of the choir,  in some (probably) French abbey about 1100 CE or so.    Probably did it in ancient Greece and Rome, too,  but we don't have firm evidence on that point.

Octophony?  You've possibly heard of a composer named Thomas Tallis:  composed a motet that utilized eight spatially separated choirs;  work titled Spem in alium; you might want to check it out sometime.

Even the idea of performers moving around vertically and horizontally was made use of by Renaissance composers.

The result was unique, but every musical element Stockhausen made use of in Gruppen was well known for centuries before he came along.   The only innovation he made was to use of 20th century musical instrumentation, including electronics.  (I'm speaking of his music in general here, not merely Gruppen.) He stood on the shoulders of giants, and his status as a pygmy is confirmed by his refusal to acknowledge that.

kishnevi

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2014, 06:31:43 PM »
Here is an article on Gruppen. Seems OK .. perhaps if we read just this for starts we can understand its genesis, realization, content and intention are quite different and on another level.

Having read that...the only important thing in Gruppen was the concept of "duration series"... and that is merely a refinement of serialism, not an innovation.  Spatialized music was merely a tool to help perform the result.

Ken B

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »
Jeffrey Smith, if we ever meet the beer is on me.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 07:03:18 PM by Ken B »

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2014, 04:41:38 PM »
Spoken like a true musical ignoramus.

Classic James.

[Munches popcorn]
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Ken B

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2014, 05:23:16 PM »
Classic James.

[Munches popcorn]

Need a movie to go with mat popcorn Francis.

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=voix%20cheats&sm=3

Offline EigenUser

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2014, 07:52:25 PM »
Maurice Ohana ~ Concerto for Cello and Orchestra, No. 2 | "In Dark and Blue" (1990)

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/95FRY2HbYJA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/95FRY2HbYJA</a>

From Wiki:
Maurice Ohana (June 12, 1913 – November 13, 1992 in Paris) was an Anglo-French composer of Sephardic Jewish origin.

He originally studied architecture, but abandoned this in favour of a musical career, initially as a pianist. He studied under Alfredo Casella in Rome, returning to France in 1946. Around this time he founded the "Groupe Zodiaque", which fought against prevailing musical dogma. His mature musical style shows the influence of Mediterranean folk music, particularly the Andalusian cante jondo.

Ohana's output includes the choral works Office des Oracles and Avoaha (1992), three string quartets (1963, 1980, 1989), and two suites for ten-string guitar: Si le jour paraît... (1963) and Cadran lunaire (1981-2), as well as a Tiento for six-string guitar (1957). He also wrote operas entitled Syllabaire pour Phèdre and La Celestina.

He is also known for his extensive use of microtonality; for example, third- and quarter-tones in pieces like Le Tombeau de Debussy and Si le jour paraît.... He was influenced by the use of microintervals in the cante jondo.

Ohana rarely composed for large symphony orchestra: Synaxis (1966), Livre des Prodiges (1979) and T'Harân-Ngô (1973-1974). He composed two cello concertos, one piano concerto and a guitar concerto (1950–58; dedicated to Narciso Yepes).
Thanks for sharing this! This is outstanding! I just heard it earlier today, and I'm listening again. It sounds very French -- maybe between Ravel and Messaien, but closer to Ravel in harmony. It's modern, but very expressive and fairly subdued. I even hear some of the Ravel G major PC in sections.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline amw

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2014, 08:11:06 PM »
Ohana's Erato box appears to be on sale from HMV Japan, btw, for anyone who's curious. I have no idea how much ¥2,265 is in USD.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Ohana-Maurice-1913-1992_000000000026387/item_Works-From-The-Erato-Catalogue-Constant-Couraud-Guschlbauer-Mesple-Etc_1839088

Offline Mr Bloom

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2014, 03:46:33 AM »
Having read that...the only important thing in Gruppen was the concept of "duration series"... and that is merely a refinement of serialism, not an innovation.  Spatialized music was merely a tool to help perform the result.
Duration series came from Messiaen's etudes de rythme. All the serialists stole from this piece. Messiaen hated himself for this work ;D !

A fact : Stockhausen got the inspiration for using three spacialized orchestras in Gruppen when he heard a performance of Ives' The unanswered question.
That doesn't mean he copied Ives. I don't think that he used spacialization the same way Ives did. But the idea did came from Ives' work.

I like the fact that James exists. It confirms a lot of things that I thought about Stockhausen and his devoted followers, which I thought at the time were very exagerated on my part. They were not. >:D

Offline Mr Bloom

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2014, 06:17:40 AM »
Close, but the work by Messiaen from which Boulez and others re-used the duration and dynamic series was  Mode de valeurs et d'intensités.
Mode de valeurs et d'intensités is the second of the four études de rythme.

Offline Mr Bloom

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2014, 07:41:44 AM »
I think you're being a little bit pedantic. Most piano cycles are not considered single works, that doesn't mean we don't refer to it as these cycles. You wouldn't say I'm wrong if I'd say that Debussy use whole tone scales in his first book of preludes because all the preludes don't use them. Saying "Duration series came from Messiaen's etudes de rythme" is right, the work is called Etudes de rythme (actually it's Quatre etudes de rythmes).

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2014, 12:32:32 PM »
Right; but the four pieces are not usually considered a single work of four movements, but four distinct works.  The "Mode de valeurs et d'intensités" (Mode of Durations and Intensities) is the one that attracted the attention of the serialists because of the series Messiaen used to control the four attributes of duration, pitch, articulation and dynamics.  The other three pieces are not based on this kind of series, but incorporate other kinds of rhythmic expansion and manipulation.
I think this is just the second of the four times sanantonio will deny Mr Bloom was right. The four times are not usually considered one bit of obstinacy, but four distinct cases.

Offline Mr Bloom

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2014, 02:14:23 AM »
I'm sorry but this was clearly not what you meant with you first answer.
But let's move on.

Offline jochanaan

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2014, 06:55:20 AM »
The idea was utilized inpart to achieve what would have been impossible to realize with 1 conductor, so it was pragmatic above all i.e. realize multiple independant musical tempi layers; the spatial aspect used/informed and driven by the musical material, and by his extensive work within electroacoustics (what spatialization is especially connected with), the WDR electronic music studio in Cologne, i.e. the prior realization of the first surround sound electronic masterwork Gesang der Junglinge etc.
Sub-conductors? Multiple simultaneous tempos? Check out Berlioz' Requiem and Mahler's Symphony #2. Sorry, James, but much as I admire Stockhausen, his ideas aren't without precedent. Nor without contemporary parallels such as George Crumb's Star-Child. -- Hey, another recommendation! I heard Star-Child live in Kansas City in the late 70s soon after its premiere; very impressive. ;D
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Ken B

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2014, 07:04:31 AM »
Stockhausen was the greatest innovator, the greatest composer, the most original artist, not just in music but all of history. And damn good in bed.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2014, 07:05:34 AM »
Stockhausen was the greatest innovator, the greatest composer, the most original artist, not just in music but all of history. And damn good in bed.

Yeah and I heard he could make a mean reuben sandwich, too. :laugh:
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2014, 08:53:01 AM »
The Berlioz & Mahler have nothing to do with how the Stockhausen works at all. Neither does the Ives etc. My initial statement pages back stands. Everyone here thus far are desperately trying to forge connections that are trivial & irrelevant. Fact remains, Gruppen is a groundbreaking work and nothing quite like it had been done before, and not on that level.

It's groundbreaking because YOU say it is and not because of the detailed and well-informed responses from various members which you never bothered to acknowledge. If there's ever a broken record, it would be you, James. Just sayin'.
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2014, 08:59:56 AM »
detailed? well informed? LOL

Nuff said.


James, you're talking about a work whose concept of a double orchestra, or two group orchestra, has been done before. Stockhausen isn't a genius nor was he a musical mastermind. It always amazes me that you have the ability to create your own reality and then live in it.
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: 1950 to 2000
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2014, 09:33:53 AM »
There is a lot more to the work than the triple orchestra configuration, kid .. and you should learn to be quiet because you don't know anything.

I'm sure there are like innovations that were already laid down before Stockhausen was even born....lol. :laugh:
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy