Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 5: reviews and thoughts

[Cosi bel do]

This is very interesting anyway, I'll be interested by your opinion on the versions I mentioned. I understand you, I like this kind of projects (I'm currently comparing all my versions of all Haydn symphonies, symphony by symphony ; I'm currently in the middle of my 34th symphony listenings).

[Pat B]

Next up: Alexander Dmitriev and the Academic Symphony Orchestra of the St. Petersburg Philharmonia. 1993.

As mentioned recently on the Purchases thread, I just bought this. It is absolutely fantastic. I am so happy with this recommendation that I have now ordered the Van Kempen.

Previously Mravinsky/DG stereo was the only one I had.

[mc ukrneal]

This is very interesting anyway, I'll be interested by your opinion on the versions I mentioned. I understand you, I like this kind of projects (I'm currently comparing all my versions of all Haydn symphonies, symphony by symphony ; I'm currently in the middle of my 34th symphony listenings).

Whoa! All of Haydn! That's a bunch of listening!! Though, as I think of it, the symphonies are generally shorter making it more manageable than perhaps originally thought.

As mentioned recently on the Purchases thread, I just bought this. It is absolutely fantastic. I am so happy with this recommendation that I have now ordered the Van Kempen.

Previously Mravinsky/DG stereo was the only one I had.

I am glad you enjoyed it the Dmitriev. It's a real firecracker! Van Kempen will be something completely different, but I think the cymbals alone make it worth having. The sound quality will be nowhere near the Dmitriev of course.

[mc ukrneal]

Next up: Karl Bohm and the London Symphony Orchestra. 1980.

Available in these editions:   


First movement: Slow start, but nice tone to the clarinet. Dynamic changes are a bit muted. And into the next section, we are at a slow to moderate pace. This is a more legato approach with less strong accents and attacks. Climaxes are still exciting though. Tempo is consistent in each section, with changes in tempo more organic than most. There are some sudden changes, but generally done with the change in dynamics for the most part. Although the tempo speeds up when there are climaxes, it doesn't shift into a totally unrelated gear. It stays slow for the most part, and it doesn't have these sudden bursts of speed that seem out of place.  While it is generally on the slow side, I find it quite well played (if highly controlled).  Phrasing is good, though there is less focus on dynamics details. 

Second Movement: Dark beginning – slow and foreboding. Gorgeously done. Horn solo sounds magnificent. It is a softer touch and quite alluring in sound. Beautifully done (not bold, but restrained; not attacking, but caressing). The tempo, however, is very slow. In fact, Bohm's second movement is one of the 10 slowest on record. And it is surprisingly effective – the music can take it. There are times I wish they had filled the transitions with a bit more detail, but generally a good job overall. The slower tempo gives this a melancholy atmosphere much of the time. If you want speed (any speed), look elsewhere. Nevertheless, it is really quite well played.

Third movement: Another slow one. Also beautifully played. This one certainly doesn't have the pulse of a waltz you would dance to (too slow).

Fourth Movement: Surprise – a slow start. It has a nice balance and the playing, by not being overly aggressive, makes this a bit more beautiful (and though I wonder if it really should be, I still enjoyed it). You do get to hear a lot of details. And then we are into the allegro vivace (after the timpani roll, no downbeat), and it takes off at a moderate pace, followed by a brief speed up. Brass have a really softened edge – no raspy brass here! This is not an intense version either, though climaxes are well handled. On the other hand, it does create an attractive sound. Unison is surprisingly a bit ragged in a couple moments considering the slow speed.  Here I am much more reminded of the way Bruckner might write a climax (another thought I've never had while listening to this symphony) – I was reminded of this approach more than once. It slows down going into the final sections (which really sound like they are in slow motion, which I find fascinating). It finally picks up some speed in the presto, and the last section slows a hair, while last four notes slow down.

Overall: Good. This might be a good version for someone who wants a less aggressive approach or slower tempos. It is a bit too slow overall to recommend as a first choice, but would make an interesting complement to some of the faster versions. The slowness almost starts to remind me of Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony at times, which is an interesting thought to have (and not one I normally have here). Also, by playing it slow, some of the warts and hard edges are really softened and reduced quite a bit (whether this is good or not, I'll leave to you). Playing is good, and this was one of Bohm's last recordings. His is definitely a different approach.

Alternative reviews available on the net:
None

[Ken B]

I always liked Solti's old recording of 5.

[Mookalafalas]

For some reason when I click on the first page of this thread I just get a white screen. I ended up going through it backwards I was specifically looking for thoughts on Haitink's Tchai (I'm sorta kinda thinking about his symphony edition. A key factor would be his Tchaikovsky, as I don't have a cycle). Anyway, I'll keep an eye over here, in case you get to it one day.  Interesting thread

[Ken B]

For some reason when I click on the first page of this thread I just get a white screen. I ended up going through it backwards I was specifically looking for thoughts on Haitink's Tchai (I'm sorta kinda thinking about his symphony edition. A key factor would be his Tchaikovsky, as I don't have a cycle). Anyway, I'll keep an eye over here, in case you get to it one day.  Interesting thread

Karajan is excellent in Tchai BBoy. Since we were discussing him. His symphony box has several great cycles.
Never heard the Haitink, but he's usually reliable.

[Mookalafalas]

Karajan is excellent in Tchai BBoy. Since we were discussing him. His symphony box has several great cycles.
Never heard the Haitink, but he's usually reliable.

Ah, and actually I have that on my hard disc, but never play it. Will have to set up a Tchaikovsky binge-session soon... Also, found I have Valery Gergiev conducting the 5th in the Phillips box. Putting that in the queue as well...(took me a long time to spell queue. What a ridiculous word!)

[mc ukrneal]

I am not sure what is the problem, but I emailed Rob, because it is the same for me (so a site issue I guess).

Haitink and Karajan will be among the next 10-20 I listen to, but may take some time to get there. Karajan actually has six recordings of the 5th (on CD), so will be interesting to see how they fare.

You can find the Gergiev (which I have already listened to) here: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21805.msg723730.html#msg723730

[akiralx]

Haitink and Karajan will be among the next 10-20 I listen to, but may take some time to get there. Karajan actually has six recordings of the 5th (on CD), so will be interesting to see how they fare.

Great thread, many thanks.

Of the Karajan BPO ones (1965 DG, 1971 EMI and 1975 DG) I do have a preference for the EMI, especially as the harshness seems to have been tamed on recent incarnations.  I'll be interested to hear your views.

Interested to read your view of Nelsons' version which I have on order, mainly because his Dvorak New World is so good.

I quite agree with your preference for Pletnev's DG version over the unexciting Pentatone, that latter series has been a disappointment to me.

The ones which I favour now are Szell, Sinopoli (this is *really* good, but a hard CD to source now) and a Kobayashi Exton SACD - with the Czech PO, not the Japan PO.

[mc ukrneal]

Great thread, many thanks.

Of the Karajan BPO ones (1965 DG, 1971 EMI and 1975 DG) I do have a preference for the EMI, especially as the harshness seems to have been tamed on recent incarnations.  I'll be interested to hear your views.

Interested to read your view of Nelsons' version which I have on order, mainly because his Dvorak New World is so good.

I quite agree with your preference for Pletnev's DG version over the unexciting Pentatone, that latter series has been a disappointment to me.

The ones which I favour now are Szell, Sinopoli (this is *really* good, but a hard CD to source now) and a Kobayashi Exton SACD - with the Czech PO, not the Japan PO.

Welcome to the forum!

I have the Sinopoli - will get to it eventually. Thanks for the clarification on the Kobayashi. He has at least three on Amazon - the two you mention and one with Arnheim PO. The Japan PO was on mp3 and I had been considering it, but will probably hold off and see if there is a cheaper way to get a hold of the Czech PO version.

Been a bit delayed here as I was doing some extra Mahler listening. Should get a posting up here in the next few days.

[Sergeant Rock]

The ones which I favour now are Szell...

Sarge

[akiralx]

I have now received and listened to CBSO/Nelsons on Orfeo. 

Quite a fine version, very well recorded and fairly dark in the first movement.  Very enjoyable and classically-wrought throughout, with an element of slight restraint.  Not as fiery as Sinopoli, but I can recommend it - apart from a pretty major flaw (for me anyway): the horn solo in the Andante is really too loud.

[mc ukrneal]

I have now received and listened to CBSO/Nelsons on Orfeo. 

Quite a fine version, very well recorded and fairly dark in the first movement.  Very enjoyable and classically-wrought throughout, with an element of slight restraint.  Not as fiery as Sinopoli, but I can recommend it - apart from a pretty major flaw (for me anyway): the horn solo in the Andante is really too loud.

You liked it more than I did, but we both had the issue with the solo. It is very prominent, though some may not mind that so much.

[G. String]

I like this symphony very much. Among my recordings, the ones I enjoy listening to are Abbado/LSO, Celibidache/MPO, Karajan/BPO 1975, Masur/LG, Mravinsky/LGPO, Muti/PO, Szell/CO and Wit/PNRSO

[Kytrarewn]

mc ukrneal: What are your thoughts on how the trumpets should play during the marciale section at rehearsal Aa in the fourth movement? I've been listening to this piece a fair bit myself, and I always find myself put off when the trumpets use wide vibrato making it sound alternately excessively nasal or excessively pretty.

I've been listening to the Szell/Cleveland recording a lot, and the brass sound is absolutely glorious (especially the trombones after rehearsal Q). I look forward to reading your thoughts on that version.

[akiralx]

Next up: Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. 1994.

Available in these editions:

I bought/listened to this yesterday and agree - it is so-so.  One issue I find is that the strings just do not have the weight they seemed to for, say, Abbado's BPO Brahms cycle on DG.  The Andante was the disappointment, rather matter of fact, the horn solo was too sweet in tone, almost brass-band like, and the entire movement was just not gripping at all.  The performance improves as it goes and the Finale is actually well done, and exciting.   A disappointment overall. 

I have not heard Abbado II (CSO) but I read one comment about it that opined that Abbado generally in the late Tchaikovsky symphonies always seems to emphasis the balletic rather than symphonic - though his early VPO Fourth on DG was pretty weighty, and excellent recording.

[jochanaan]

mc ukrneal: What are your thoughts on how the trumpets should play during the marciale section at rehearsal Aa in the fourth movement? I've been listening to this piece a fair bit myself, and I always find myself put off when the trumpets use wide vibrato making it sound alternately excessively nasal or excessively pretty...

The wide vibrato is, or was, a characteristic of Russian brass players, so that many orchestras feel they have to imitate them.

You're talking about the final trumpet statement of the main theme, right?  My thoughts are: 1. It should soar over the rest of the orchestra, dynamically.  No holding back! 2. Should be very strongly articulated, molto marziale. 3. Definitely with vibrato, not too much, but enough to increase the perceived loudness. -- Of course, there can be different and effective ways of playing anything; but those are my personal preferences.

[Kytrarewn]

The wide vibrato is, or was, a characteristic of Russian brass players, so that many orchestras feel they have to imitate them.

You're talking about the final trumpet statement of the main theme, right?  My thoughts are: 1. It should soar over the rest of the orchestra, dynamically.  No holding back! 2. Should be very strongly articulated, molto marziale. 3. Definitely with vibrato, not too much, but enough to increase the perceived loudness. -- Of course, there can be different and effective ways of playing anything; but those are my personal preferences.

The interesting thing is that even Mravinsky seems to have backed down a bit in his later years, with his 1983 Tchaik5 having reasonably straight trumpet playing during that section. That's a big part of why I prefer it over the 1960 recording (sacrilegious as that may be).

[jochanaan]

The interesting thing is that even Mravinsky seems to have backed down a bit in his later years, with his 1983 Tchaik5 having reasonably straight trumpet playing during that section. That's a big part of why I prefer it over the 1960 recording (sacrilegious as that may be).

The 1983 recording probably had different trumpeters.