Author Topic: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.  (Read 3173 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2018, 02:06:46 AM »
My Romanian informant tells me that Russian was a favored language to learn in the 60's or so.

Actually, it was more like "compulsory" than "favored". ;D
When I was a child, happiness was simple. Now that I've grown up, simplicity is happiness. - Anonymous

Offline Que

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2018, 02:44:54 AM »
Nothing you wrote contradicts anything I wrote. I focused on actions, you focused on the motives behind them.  :)

Correct, and I was not trying to contradict.  :D

However, the motives behind these benign historical actions do matter when reflecting on the degree in which "we Europeans" need to feel indebted to the US and UK. The US has for a long time considered the EU instrumental in its power base.
The UK, its then junior ally and soon-to-be "vassal state", pushed EU expansion on its behalf to further its geopolitical powerstrugle with Russia.

Why does the US spend more on defence than all its NATO allies? Because it wants to remain the most powerful country in the world.
Why? Amongst other things,  to remain the wealthiest nation on the planet. America = no. 1.... ;)

So, on topic:

Rees-Mogg and his Brexit croonies urgently need to reflect in wether they want to be "a colony" of the EU or a (real) vassal state to the US. Membership of the EU in actual fact means for the UK being a major player in a ruled based political and economic alliance of global importance. Though some compromising and loosing a court case now and then is part of the package.

The alternative is being pushed around by the US, which will treat the UK as an extended market for its products and a puppet on the international political stage.

Though choice, because neiter option involves the revival of the British Empire.....  >:D
The Empire is gone, deal with it!

Q
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 03:14:58 AM by Que »
À chacun son goût.

Offline EddieRUKiddingVarese

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2018, 03:05:26 AM »
the US Empire is fading fast
"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2018, 04:40:32 AM »
Countries never act out of altruistic motives, I'm afraid...  ::)

Britain took the lead in WWII because German domination was a direct thread to its interest as a major global and European power. But it looked the other way when Germany violated the Versailles Treaties by rearming, and again when Germany overtook Austria, and sacrificed the sovereignty of Czechoslovakia in Munich.

The US, as mentioned, looked the other way untill it was attacked.
Stalin knew Hitler was a thread but struck a deal to buy time by carving up Poland.

The post war Marshall aid that was so benificial to Western European countries, was part of the US policy to resist Soviet domination in Europe - for its own benefit. Did British resistance and US intervention and subsequent support save Europe and Western democracy? Yes of course it did. But both the US and the UK acted to safeguard their own empires, their gobal power.
Freedom in Europe, including the later expansion of NATO and the EU to Eastern Europe, is "just" a byproduct of a global powerstrugle.

As post war history has demonstrated, the US and other Western powers had no problem whatsoever to undermine democracy in certain countries and violate the rule of (international) law when it suited them.

Of course nobody told that to the soldiers dying in the battle field of WW II. They died for freedom and democracy,  and my personal gratitude goes out to them instead of the politicians that send them - and contributed to the mess in the first place.

Q

Oh yes, of course Britain went to war in 1939 to protect the interests of the British Empire and try to prevent the complete domination of Europe by Nazi Germany. However, they did, together with their French and Dominion Allies, go to war. I agree about the betrayal of Czechoslovakia at Munich but for various reasons it would have been difficult for Britain to declare war on Germany then and, for one, it would have split the Empire. However, it was still a betrayal of the Czechs. The French came out of it even worse as they were allies of the Czechs.

As for Marshall Aid one of my students, in answer to my question as to whether or not it was an act of selfless generosity by the Americans replied by saying 'it was generous but not selfless' which I thought was a very good answer and it is my opinion as well.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Florestan

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2018, 05:52:38 AM »
As for Marshall Aid one of my students, in answer to my question as to whether or not it was an act of selfless generosity by the Americans replied by saying 'it was generous but not selfless'

Excellent and spot on!
When I was a child, happiness was simple. Now that I've grown up, simplicity is happiness. - Anonymous

Offline Christo

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2018, 12:43:36 AM »
Instead, in the near future Europeans will be speaking Arabic, or at least that will become an official language in quite a few countries.
There is one already: Malta. As for the rest, this prediction is so ot of touch with reality, it tells all about the fake news you rely on.
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline André

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2018, 04:46:54 AM »
Arabic is not a language spoken by the Maltese. They wouldn’t recognize it if they heard it. Maltese is a descendant of a now extinct siculo-arabic branch spoken in Sicily until around 1300 AD, that got latinized in the last 800 years. It uses the same alphabet as the romance languages, with a few extra letters or diacritics unrelated to the arabic.

Offline Christo

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2018, 11:38:32 AM »
Arabic is not a language spoken by the Maltese. They wouldn’t recognize it if they heard it. Maltese is a descendant of a now extinct siculo-arabic branch spoken in Sicily until around 1300 AD, that got latinized in the last 800 years. It uses the same alphabet as the romance languages, with a few extra letters or diacritics unrelated to the arabic.
In short: Malti - or Maltese - is an Arabic language (and easily recognizable as such, which is big fun once you're in Malta): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language  :)
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Online drogulus

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2018, 01:39:48 PM »
Bizarre???

Who saved Western Europe from Hitler? The USA. (any notion that the USSR could have done it alone is insane; leaving aside they could not have done it alone militarily, if the USSR had had their way the regime they would have imposed on WE countries would not have been any better than the Nazis, not even for the Jews).

Who rebuilt the economy of the WE countries from scratch, starting with Germany and Italy? The USA through the Marshall Plan.

Who contained the USSR threatening of, and expansion into, WE countries? The USA through NATO (any notion that the Red Army would not have victoriously marched as far as Lisbon absent the USA firmly establishing a red line more or less west of Vienna --- Prague is actually west of Vienna --- is idiotic).

So yes, in this respect Trump is absolutely right: Western Europe has a human, moral and material debt to the USA --- and simply spending 2% of their GDP on NATO is actually not even the beginning of repayment.



     No, NATO expenditures are alliance commitments, not owed to a country. Trump thinks any international agreement is someone else getting the better of the U.S. It's part of his mental carnage.

False. As per 2017:



US expenditures: 685,957 million US $

All European countries together: 233,081 million US $, i.e. three times less.



    How much of U.S. expenditure is NATO related? I don't break it down that way because I know why U.S. expenditure is so high, but for those of you who don't it might be worth considering that U.S. military requirements include a large, very expensive navy and air force with world wide reach. We get the most benefit and pay the highest cost. For us the whole world is essentially forward defense. What price should a country be willing to pay so wars would not be fought on its own territory?

     
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Offline André

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2018, 02:22:15 PM »
In short: Malti - or Maltese - is an Arabic language (and easily recognizable as such, which is big fun once you're in Malta): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language  :)

I know, I’ve been there. It has evolved way too much to be regarded as arabic in the modern sense.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2018, 11:49:54 PM »
Very funny! It's the first time I hear Maltese and I can understand a lot of this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/zhGUTLsGgbM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/zhGUTLsGgbM</a>

but next to nothing of this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/9h0ff77q1jc" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/9h0ff77q1jc</a>

What a strange language.

Now that I think of it, an Italian would understand quite a lot listening to a Romanian documentary about painting but very little listening to two Romanian peasants talking about crops and harvests --- and viceversa.  :D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:07:59 AM by Florestan »
When I was a child, happiness was simple. Now that I've grown up, simplicity is happiness. - Anonymous

Offline Christo

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2018, 01:27:38 AM »
'Mutual intelligibility', which is said to be somewhat between 30 and 40 percent between Maltese and neighbouring Tunesian Arabic, is a very tricky criterium BTW: e.g. as West Germanic languages English and Dutch are close relations, but the 'mutual intelligibility' could be under 5 percent (I could literally make nothing of English when I first saw it). One reason being the 60 to 70 percent of Romance (French and Latin) vocabulary in English, just like there's a high (but lower) percentage in Maltese. Yet that doesn't make English less Germanic, nor Malti less Semitic/Arabic.
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline The new erato

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Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2018, 04:18:57 AM »


    How much of U.S. expenditure is NATO related? I don't break it down that way because I know why U.S. expenditure is so high, but for those of you who don't it might be worth considering that U.S. military requirements include a large, very expensive navy and air force with world wide reach. We get the most benefit and pay the highest cost. For us the whole world is essentially forward defense. What price should a country be willing to pay so wars would not be fought on its own territory?

   
Now that is the rub as I see it as well.