Author Topic: Ockeghem's Office  (Read 1341 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EigenUser

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3328
  • Mahler's 9th - "Deadlifts in the midst of life"
    • Ligeti's Laboratory
  • Location: Northern VA
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Gershwin, Debussy, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Feldman, Messiaen, Haydn, Ockeghem, Adès, Mahler, Ohana, Webern, Boulez, Varese, Beethoven, Berg, Scriabin, Tippett, Takemitsu, Vaughan-Williams
Ockeghem's Office
« on: May 31, 2014, 12:22:34 PM »
I used the GMG search for Ockeghem and got a rather interesting suggestion from the search engine. See for yourselves.

But seriously, no Ockeghem thread in the past seven years ??? ? I don't know that much about him, but isn't he pretty important? I feel bad starting this thread -- like the honor should be left to a big fan of his instead of a newbie. I guess no one cares, though, or they would have posted one.

What are some of his more well-known works? I am listening to his "Missa Prolationum" and I think it is stunning. Any suggestions?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2863
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 12:49:59 PM »
He's a great composer, and deserves his own thread.

The Requiem is probably his best known piece. It may be the first requiem written by anyone. The Pro Cantione Antiqua recording on Archiv has a special place in my heart and record collection.

His music is extremely complex, and has attracted a lot of attention from modern composers. Ligeti cited him as an influence.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13776
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 01:07:18 PM »
The Pro Cantione Antiqua recording on Archiv has a special place in my heart and record collection.
All the recordings they did I feel is pretty special.

Ockeghem is an extremely interesting composer. This recording is rather special:


Offline TheGSMoeller

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10041
  • Monkey Greg.
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 03:46:40 PM »

The Requiem is probably his best known piece. It may be the first requiem written by anyone.


I've heard only two recordings, The Hilliard Ensemble and The Clerks' Group. I do own The Clerks' Group and absolutely love it, their tone is more rugged than Hilliard, but stunningly gorgeous. The music itself is transcendent.




The Pro Cantione Antiqua recording on Archiv has a special place in my heart and record collection.

Is this the album?


Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2863
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2014, 04:11:21 PM »
I used the GMG search for Ockeghem and got a rather interesting suggestion from the search engine. See for yourselves.

I tried it  :laugh:

Is this the album?

Yeah, that's it. I have the original LP issue. I had the Clerks Group for a while. I thought it was good until I heard Pro Cantione Antiqua. For me now, the Clerks sound too bright and emotionally neutral. The PCA recording is slower, much darker, and very fervent. It also has some discreet instrumental accompaniment, which adds a notable mournful undertone to the proceedings.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline TheGSMoeller

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10041
  • Monkey Greg.
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2014, 04:22:55 PM »

Yeah, that's it. I have the original LP issue. I had the Clerks Group for a while. I thought it was good until I heard Pro Cantione Antiqua. For me now, the Clerks sound too bright and emotionally neutral. The PCA recording is slower, much darker, and very fervent. It also has some discreet instrumental accompaniment, which adds a notable mournful undertone to the proceedings.

Oh, then I must give this a try.
And I do like the addition of the instruments, I have a Dufay disc from Cantina Symphonia that uses sackbuts to accompany the voices, and you're right it adds that undertone.
Thank you for the rec, sir!  8)

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13776
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2014, 10:57:19 PM »
The PCA recording is slower, much darker, and very fervent. It also has some discreet instrumental accompaniment, which adds a notable mournful undertone to the proceedings.
I also have the LPs as well as CDs. The PCA are much darker and intense indeed - this can be heard to stunning effect in their Lssus disc of a couple of Penitential Psalms, perhaps my favorite renaissance disc ever.

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2863
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 10:16:12 AM »
I am listening to his "Missa Prolationum" and I think it is stunning.

What recording of this do you have? There are a number of them which I'm curious about. In particular, has anyone heard the very old mono version by the Fleetwood Singers?
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline EigenUser

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3328
  • Mahler's 9th - "Deadlifts in the midst of life"
    • Ligeti's Laboratory
  • Location: Northern VA
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Gershwin, Debussy, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Feldman, Messiaen, Haydn, Ockeghem, Adès, Mahler, Ohana, Webern, Boulez, Varese, Beethoven, Berg, Scriabin, Tippett, Takemitsu, Vaughan-Williams
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2014, 12:32:59 PM »
What recording of this do you have? There are a number of them which I'm curious about. In particular, has anyone heard the very old mono version by the Fleetwood Singers?
This one:



It's the only one I've heard and I'm very happy with it. Then again, I am not very picky about recordings if I am not very familiar with the music.

Okay, I've heard this four times in the past 36 hours. It's time for me to get more Ockeghem! Perhaps the Requiem should be next...

Edit: Ockeghem makes me sleepy. Not at all because it is boring -- it is actually very interesting. I am reading about how the prolation mass is a double mensuration canon and it seems extremely complex. The voices have this somber echo-y quality that are aesthetically very peaceful, I think.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 03:07:13 PM by EigenUser »
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Online HIPster

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1765
  • HIPster
  • Location: Zimmermann's Cafe
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach and Beyond
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 09:18:07 AM »
All the recordings they did I feel is pretty special.

Ockeghem is an extremely interesting composer. This recording is rather special:



I agree!

Very special indeed.

I also recently purchased the Clerks Group Requiem disc and find that one to be excellent as well.

Velimir and New Erato - thank you for pointing me in the direction of the Pro Cantione Antiqua!  I just received their Lassus Requiem~Magnificat-Moteti disc on DHM and it is a real wonder.  Have the Ockeghem (Archiv) previously mentioned, wish listed. . .  ;)

Offline king ubu

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2453
  • sic transit gloria mundi
    • ubu's notizen
  • Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 01:24:01 PM »
This is the one I've had for I guess close to 20 years:



(though I've got an older edition of course)
Tornate, o cari baci,
a ritornarmi in vita,
baci al mio cor digiun esca gradita!
Voi di quel dolce amaro
per cui languir m’è caro,
di quel dolce non meno
nettare che veleno
pascete i miei famelici desiri,
luci in cui dolci provo anco i sospiri!

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2863
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 06:01:17 PM »
I just bought an old LP of the Missa Prolationum, Capella Nova conducted by Richard Taruskin (yes, that Taruskin). Specs on this recording can be found here:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/asv103.htm

This is on Musical Heritage Society. I didn't know they made their own recordings; I thought they just licensed other companies'.

Anyway, had my first listen. A very dense piece, and your head can hurt if you try to follow the "prolation canons" closely. I'll keep going back to it.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Online HIPster

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1765
  • HIPster
  • Location: Zimmermann's Cafe
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach and Beyond
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 03:21:53 PM »
I just bought an old LP of the Missa Prolationum, Capella Nova conducted by Richard Taruskin (yes, that Taruskin). Specs on this recording can be found here:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/asv103.htm

This is on Musical Heritage Society. I didn't know they made their own recordings; I thought they just licensed other companies'.

Anyway, had my first listen. A very dense piece, and your head can hurt if you try to follow the "prolation canons" closely. I'll keep going back to it.

Interesting!  Thank you for posting, Velimir.   ;)

Thanks to you are also in order: I just received the Turner/Pro Cantione Antiqua you mentioned above in this thread:


On a first-listen here and it is indeed a special recording. . .  Dark and atmospheric, as you described.  It will be fun to compare this to the Clerk's Group recording (one I like very much too).

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2863
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 06:19:51 PM »

On a first-listen here and it is indeed a special recording. . .  Dark and atmospheric, as you described.  It will be fun to compare this to the Clerk's Group recording (one I like very much too).

Good to hear  :) yes it's special isn't it? I used to like the Clerks, but I don't much like that bright & clean style in early music anymore.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Offline EigenUser

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3328
  • Mahler's 9th - "Deadlifts in the midst of life"
    • Ligeti's Laboratory
  • Location: Northern VA
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Gershwin, Debussy, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Feldman, Messiaen, Haydn, Ockeghem, Adès, Mahler, Ohana, Webern, Boulez, Varese, Beethoven, Berg, Scriabin, Tippett, Takemitsu, Vaughan-Williams
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2014, 04:21:45 PM »
Does anyone know of a good book about Ockeghem or early music in general? I looked at some renaissance music books in my library, but many of them seem way too technical for me. Ideas?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Online listener

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5496
  • Somebody plucked my G-string!
  • Location: 604
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2014, 05:47:36 PM »
There was a reissue of the complete secular works on 2 cds from the original 3 lps about 11 years ago, it appears to be out of print and fetches rather extreme prices now.   I have the lps.



Ken B

  • Guest
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2014, 06:33:35 AM »
Does anyone know of a good book about Ockeghem or early music in general? I looked at some renaissance music books in my library, but many of them seem way too technical for me. Ideas?
I have not read it but Oxford has a very short introduction to early music.

Offline EigenUser

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3328
  • Mahler's 9th - "Deadlifts in the midst of life"
    • Ligeti's Laboratory
  • Location: Northern VA
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bartok, Ligeti, Ravel, Gershwin, Debussy, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Feldman, Messiaen, Haydn, Ockeghem, Adès, Mahler, Ohana, Webern, Boulez, Varese, Beethoven, Berg, Scriabin, Tippett, Takemitsu, Vaughan-Williams
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 05:11:35 PM »
Cross-posted from listening thread. This deserves mention here.

I've heard this piece many times before, but I don't think I've heard this outstanding performance. Everything I like about Ockeghem is brought out -- dark, echo-y voices weaving in and out. Really, really great. Ken, have you heard this before? I bet you'd like it.

Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13776
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 02:03:55 AM »
There was a reissue of the complete secular works on 2 cds from the original 3 lps about 11 years ago, it appears to be out of print and fetches rather extreme prices now.   I have the lps.
L'Oiseau-Lyre have promised a Renaissance box and the Ockeghem will undoubtedly be there. Though it will duplicate my Complete Dowland set, my Complete Dufay Secular Music set, and the Musicke of Sundrie Kindes set that I have, I will probably get it.

Offline sanantonio

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5482
    • My blog
  • Location: Nashville
  • Currently Listening to:
    Early Music
Re: Ockeghem's Office
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 09:41:18 AM »
L'Oiseau-Lyre have promised a Renaissance box and the Ockeghem will undoubtedly be there. Though it will duplicate my Complete Dowland set, my Complete Dufay Secular Music set, and the Musicke of Sundrie Kindes set that I have, I will probably get it.

I just ordered the L'Oiseau-Lyre Medieval-Renaissance box from Presto, taking advantage of their boxset sale.  Yes, some of these recordings are dated, but still, most are very good and well worth having.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK