Haydn symphonies

[Cosi bel do]

Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.

My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane') they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).

I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner....

As I said, I tried to completely forget all sound characteristics here, since I heard rips that didn't do justice to the originals anyway. The sound is not the issue here.

I do agree with you though, these recordings are quite enjoyable, pleasant. And they are really valuable because most of these symphonies are not that well recorded (and I don't find Solomons usually inferior to Hogwood, or not very much if it is the case).

Thanks for pointing out symphony no. 63, it seems it is the only Solomons recording I had missed ! I'll listen to that in a minute
Edit : done ! Indeed, an essential recording and much better than Dorati in version 1. And one of the best of Solomons' by the way. I would have hated not to know it ! Thanks again (and for the excellent summary in your article too).

[Old Listener]

Yes, I don't disagree with that. The results obtained by the true pioneers are certainly not the same of modern PI performances. And not only in the playing, but in the recording techniques too.

My opinion doesn't matter, of course, one way or another, but for me, the musicianship carries these performances far past any shortcomings in sound or recording. I have all of them, I bought the 9 disks which had never been released by CBS, remastered to CD by Haydn House. In some cases, they are the only alternative to Hogwood, and in at least one case (Symphony 63, 'La Roxelane') they provide the alternative version performance which enables you to hear both authentic orchestrations (on PI, that is, which is all I care about).

I know you make allowances for older recordings which are not PI, which have similar issues, usually of sound. Since I don't do that, I don't make a special pleading for these to have the same forbearance. I will just quietly enjoy them, over here in the corner....

in a few recordings, the sheer sound of the orchestra and soloist sound exactly right for the work.  i often feel that when listening to many of the solomons recordings.  the bilson/gardiner mozart pc recordings are another example.

solomons 39, 45, 48 and 59 are unbeatable for me.  love those high horns in 48.

[Old Listener]

Has no one mentioned the supremely elegant recordings of the last six London symphonies by Mogens Wöldike and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra?

Originally issued on Vanguard LPs, and later--all-too-briefly--available on cd.  Long out of print, alas, and offered at exorbitant prices whenever someone does decide to part with a used copy. 

old friends from decades ago and still very enjoyable to listen  too.

some are in a couple of the mp3 only bach guild big boxes available very cheap on amazon.

[Jo498]

Of Solomons' I have only heard the 6 easily (some time ago) available on CD: 26,39,45,48,49,59. "Timid" is about the last attribute I would apply. Sure, the ensemble is rather small and sounds small and chamberlike, but there is no lack of horns in 48 or 39. Overall I find them among the most "edgy" performances I know, especially in the fast movements. Pinnock is, of course, much smoother, more polished and also very good, but lacks that nervous edginess I find compelling in several of these pieces.

This might not be the best approach to later, more "relaxed" symphonies like 63 and I am not going out of my way to get 3rd party transfers or something like that, but I am quite glad that I have the ones I have.

[Moonfish]

Cross-posting this in the Haydn's House and this thread as it is relevant to the topic. 

There has been no discussion in this thread of Goberman. Is he just of historical interest as a pioneer recording Haydn's symphonies?

I noticed that there is a pre-release notice of Goberman's Haydn Symphonies (14 cds) at Amazon.jp.  I did not come across much about him here at GMG and understand that his recordings have been available (cd-r?) from the Haydn.house. 
http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm
According to the Amazon.UK blurb below it appears as if the Sony release is a new remastering of those recordings? Could anybody expand our knowledge about Goberman's Haydn? 

Feb 9, 2015 at Amazon JP - available for pre-order
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Max-Goberman-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA

listed at Amazon UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA



from Amazon UK
"Just over 50 years after his untimely death at the age of only 51, Sony Classical is proud to make available once again the pioneering recordings of Haydn symphonies which the American conductor Max Goberman made in Vienna in the early 1960s and which, had he lived, would have formed part of the first ever complete recording of the great Austrian composer's symphonic works.

Initially released on LP by Goberman's own subscription label, the Library of Recorded Masterpieces, and originally packaged in deluxe gatefold sleeves, these historic recordings not only boasted state-of-the-art 3-track stereo sonics and authentically idiomatic playing by the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, but also took advantage of the latest musicological research to present startlingly fresh reinterpretations of these classic masterpieces in a lively, slimmed-down style that foreshadowed the historically informed period-instrument performances of today.

Born in Philadelphia in 1911, and a student of both Leopold Auer (violin) and Fritz Reiner (conducting), Max Goberman was one of the most promising and enterprising American maestros of his time, equally at home in the concert hall, the opera house, the ballet theatre, on Broadway and in the recording studio. Having joined the Philadelphia Orchestra as a violinist while still in his teens, he soon formed his own orchestra, the New York Sinfonietta, which became noted for its adventurous programming. He later became chief conductor of both New York City Opera and Ballet Theatre (forerunner to American Ballet Theatre), while enjoying a parallel career on Broadway as musical director for such hit shows as Billion Dollar Baby, Where's Charley?, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and, most notably, Bernstein's West Side Story.

But Goberman was also an entrepreneur, founding his own Library of Recorded Masterpieces label with the aim of recording the complete orchestral works of Vivaldi and the complete symphonies of Haydn for sale to subscribers by mail order. Sadly, he had only managed to record 75 of Vivaldi's concertos and 45 of Haydn's symphonies before dying from a heart attack on New Year's Eve 1962.

A few of Goberman's Haydn recordings were later released on CBS's Odyssey label, but with severely compromised sound, the bizarre decision having been taken to hold back the centre channel of the 3-track master tapes, thus obscuring much of the woodwind and brass detail that made the original LRM releases so special. Newly remastered from the original 3-track tapes wherever they were available, Sony Music's new 14-CD set thus restores these historic recordings to pristine condition and general circulation for the very first time."

[Brian]

Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!

http://www.youtube.com/v/T_00SjCeEeE

[Moonfish]

Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!

http://www.youtube.com/v/T_00SjCeEeE

I actually like this! (Alternatively, I have not been listening to Haydn enough lately!   )

[Sergeant Rock]

Wow, I've never heard of Max Goberman or his cycle before. Some of the LP transfers are on YouTube, however!

I actually like this!

So do I. In fact, I prefer it to Fey and Goodman's Firsts. Fischer, though, rules here. He and his band are utterly magnificent in these early (numbered) Symphonies.

Sarge

[Cosi bel do]

I love that ! It shows its age but it is really pleasant ! I'll have to get this set for sure !

[NLK1971]

from Amazon UK

But Goberman was also an entrepreneur, founding his own Library of Recorded Masterpieces label with the aim of recording the complete orchestral works of Vivaldi and the complete symphonies of Haydn for sale to subscribers by mail order. Sadly, he had only managed to record 75 of Vivaldi's concertos and 45 of Haydn's symphonies before dying from a heart attack on New Year's Eve 1962.

I count only 41 symphonies on this page:
http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm

[Brian]

I really liked that performance a lot, too.

[Moonfish]

I count only 41 symphonies on this page:
http://www.haydnhouse.com/Max_Goberman.htm

Maybe Sony came across some additional source material?

[NLK1971]

Ah, just noticed they're all listed on the Amazon UK page under see all items...
Nos. 27/34/37/107 seem to be the additions.

[André]

The Leslie Jones (Nonesuch) and Max Goberman (Odyssey) were already 'oldies' when I started collecting Haydn in the mid-seventies. They do have a mix of snap and warmth that, to this day, are endearing to the haydnian. We, seasoned ones, know that Papa is anything but monolithic in his music making and so should be their discographic realizations. Therefore, some exploration and lots of duplication may be necessary to understand and appreciate these gems.

Right now I'm proceeding slowly thorough the 13-disc Frans Brüggen box. The first disc of symphonies 47, 46, 26 and 49 with the Orchestra of the 18th Century. I find them surprisingly mellow, at least when compared to other versions II own.

[jfdrex]

About ten years ago, I purchased this, praised to the heavens by the Gramophone ~

[asin]B0000041AR[/asin]

~ but found it wanting.  Well played, of course, and with that distinctive Concertgebouw sound, but lacking something in the way of individuality and elan.  So I listed it for sale on Amazon.  And waited... and waited... for a few years... and even lowered the price a few times.  But nobody bought it.

So, a couple of weeks ago, not only did I de-list it--I bought its mate (very cheaply), just to balance things out ~

[asin]B0000041AQ[/asin]

And so I've been listening to volume 1...  And am just as unimpressed with it as I was with volume 2.

Am I alone in feeling that Davis's Concertgebouw performances of the London symphonies fall far short of Beecham, Bernstein, Jochum, Harnoncourt, et al?

And does anyone want to buy those two volumes off of me? 

[mc ukrneal]

About ten years ago, I purchased this, praised to the heavens by the Gramophone ~

[asin]B0000041AR[/asin]

~ but found it wanting.  Well played, of course, and with that distinctive Concertgebouw sound, but lacking something in the way of individuality and elan.  So I listed it for sale on Amazon.  And waited... and waited... for a few years... and even lowered the price a few times.  But nobody bought it.

So, a couple of weeks ago, not only did I de-list it--I bought its mate (very cheaply), just to balance things out ~

[asin]B0000041AQ[/asin]

And so I've been listening to volume 1...  And am just as unimpressed with it as I was with volume 2.

Am I alone in feeling that Davis's Concertgebouw performances of the London symphonies fall far short of Beecham, Bernstein, Jochum, Harnoncourt, et al?

And does anyone want to buy those two volumes off of me? 

Yep! I kid. If I didn't already own both, I'd take them. I find Davis better than those you listed, but perhaps we like different things in the music.

[Cosi bel do]

Davis is among the London sets I still have to listen to But I've heard very contrasting opinions on this cycle...

While I'm still listening to Fey's recordings, I've finished Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies. And they are simply extraordinary. Just a tad formal sometimes, but so beautiful you can't ever regret any moment of it. By far the best Paris symphonies I've heard. Precise order of the Paris sets would now be : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati.

I've updated my list.

[André]

Harnoncourt's Paris Symphonies are indeed very, very special. Not to be thrown off by the wayside are the Fischer, Ansermet and Dutoit versions. Goodman, Jones and Sanderling are worth their salt. Menuhin is an also-ran I'm afraid. I concur with Discobolus: Harnoncourt, Weil and Bernstein take the prize.

[mc ukrneal]

Davis is among the London sets I still have to listen to But I've heard very contrasting opinions on this cycle...

While I'm still listening to Fey's recordings, I've finished Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies. And they are simply extraordinary. Just a tad formal sometimes, but so beautiful you can't ever regret any moment of it. By far the best Paris symphonies I've heard. Precise order of the Paris sets would now be : 1. Harnoncourt / 2. Weil / 3. Bernstein / 4. Kuijken / 5. Brüggen / 6. Goodman & Karajan ex aequo / 8. Dorati.

I've updated my list.

Ugggh. Kuijken, the scourge of Paris!

[Brian]

I've updated my list.

And I see you haven't added Fey to the list anywhere! Interesting.

I need to give the Harnoncourt Paris another try, apparently; one listen to the Bear scared me back to Weil and Bernstein for the past year. Harnoncourt is very eccentric in that work.