Haydn's Haus

[Uncle Connie]

And then there's this - supposedly another version of the Missa cellensis, coupled with the Handel and Purcell Odes to St. Cecilia:


[asin] B002GUJ0RG[/asin]


but - boy am I glad I read the customer comments before buying!  Gurn and I were 'talking' a couple of weeks ago about this mass, and how part seems to date from 1766 and the rest from c.1772; well, it turns out this disc only contains the Kyrie and Gloria, i.e. the 1766 part!  Aside from a couple bits of the Credo, presumably to fill the third disc of the set, the later parts of the work aren't included. 

So scratch one off the want list.... 

[Gurn Blanston]

And then there's this - supposedly another version of the Missa cellensis, coupled with the Handel and Purcell Odes to St. Cecilia:


[asin] B002GUJ0RG[/asin]


but - boy am I glad I read the customer comments before buying!  Gurn and I were 'talking' a couple of weeks ago about this mass, and how part seems to date from 1766 and the rest from c.1772; well, it turns out this disc only contains the Kyrie and Gloria, i.e. the 1766 part!  Aside from a couple bits of the Credo, presumably to fill the third disc of the set, the later parts of the work aren't included. 

So scratch one off the want list....

Thanks for posting this, Conrad. I probably wouldn't have taken the time to read the reviews and then bought it as soon as I saw 'Minkowski' on there. I have seen versions of Mozart's Requiem like that. Different rationale, but same result. 

[Uncle Connie]

Thanks for posting this, Conrad. I probably wouldn't have taken the time to read the reviews and then bought it as soon as I saw 'Minkowski' on there. I have seen versions of Mozart's Requiem like that. Different rationale, but same result. 

The review that tipped me off to the abbreviated Haydn also says that, IHO, the Handel is excellent but the Purcell not so much.  The reviewer calls himself Zadok the Priest (he's obviously a Handel nut) and I remember him from the Amazon classical forum, which I abandoned for this one because that one started to get kinda nasty at times and I got sick of it - anyway, Zadok always struck me as one of the most thorough and incisive commentators on the music of his choice, and even if the music in question didn't intrigue me, his comments always did.  The bottom line therefore is that if you want to spend 3 discs worth of money on the Handel, maybe this is a good deal; otherwise I'd be inclined to go elsewhere.

Too bad though; I agree with you, the Minkowski name seemed to promise something worthy indeed.

As to the other one I posted, by Michel Corboz, I have some hope based on other recordings, but he's no giant in the field, so who knows?  I already have the Bomtempo Requiem (in a version under Heinz Rögner), which isn't bad but could easily be bettered.  The Haydn performance also exists on a single disc, all alone, and on a triple disc with, guess what?, the Handel and Purcell Odes!  Only they aren't directed by Corboz, rather by Andrew Parrott and Philip Ledger respectively.   

[kishnevi]

As to the other one I posted, by Michel Corboz, I have some hope based on other recordings, but he's no giant in the field, so who knows?  I already have the Bomtempo Requiem (in a version under Heinz Rögner), which isn't bad but could easily be bettered.  The Haydn performance also exists on a single disc, all alone, and on a triple disc with, guess what?, the Handel and Purcell Odes!  Only they aren't directed by Corboz, rather by Andrew Parrott and Philip Ledger respectively.

I have the three disc set you're talking about.   It's worth getting for the Handel and Purcell, but unfortunately for your purposes,  the Haydn is well done but not extraordinary.    Or perhaps it simply suffered from comparison with the other pieces.    But it was essentially an EMI marketing gimmick.  'Hey, we have three composers with an anniversary year coming up.  Anything we can do to tie them together for a set of re-releases?  Oh, well, two of them wrote Odes for this Cecilia gal.   How about Haydn?  Oh, a mass.  Okay,  what performance can we drag out of the vault for that one?"

I suppose Minkowski did the same sort of thing, but at least he gave new performances (I presume).

Well, maybe since it has Bontempo for company in this outing,  the performance will sound better.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have the three disc set you're talking about.   It's worth getting for the Handel and Purcell, but unfortunately for your purposes,  the Haydn is well done but not extraordinary.    Or perhaps it simply suffered from comparison with the other pieces.    But it was essentially an EMI marketing gimmick.  'Hey, we have three composers with an anniversary year coming up.  Anything we can do to tie them together for a set of re-releases?  Oh, well, two of them wrote Odes for this Cecilia gal.   How about Haydn?  Oh, a mass.  Okay,  what performance can we drag out of the vault for that one?"

I suppose Minkowski did the same sort of thing, but at least he gave new performances (I presume).

Well, maybe since it has Bontempo for company in this outing,  the performance will sound better.

I tend to agree with your words, probably beyond your own intentions, Jeffrey. I mean I don't consider his Haydn really memorable at all. Minkowski is too much operatic and effectist to make an outstanding Haydn or Bach... I guess he is sentenced to be a great Handelian.  

[kishnevi]

I tend to agree with your words, probably beyond your own intentions, Jeffrey. I mean I don't consider his Haydn really memorable at all. Minkowski is too much operatic and effectist to make an outstanding Haydn or Bach... I guess he is sentenced to be a great Handelian.  

I have to disagree with you about his Haydn and Bach.  Or at least, I like his recording of the B Minor Mass, and I liked most of what I heard when I gave a first listen to his recording of the London Symphonies earlier this week.  (Although I suppose I could have done without the theatrical effect he inserted into the Surprise Symphony.)

Still I have enough recordings of the Handel and Purcell Odes that I'm not going to rush out to buy Minkowski's recording.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have to disagree with you about his Haydn and Bach.

No surprise, I know Minkowski is quite popular (as these things can be "popular") and generally successful among the critics. IMO his B Minor Mass is well done, but just that: aesthetically well done.

[Gurn Blanston]

No surprise, I know Minkowski is quite popular (as these things can be "popular") and generally successful among the critics. IMO his B Minor Mass is well done, but just that: aesthetically well done.

Can you explain that, please, Antoine?   What are you wanting besides "aesthetically well done"?  I'm not arguing with you here, I'm just curious what others are looking for.

[Antoine Marchand]

I'm not arguing with you here...

Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be any problem at all, Gurn. 

I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

[Gurn Blanston]

Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be any problem at all, Gurn. 

I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

Oh, OK, he is lacking spirituality then, in a manner of speaking. I can accept that from an individual, despite that I feel that the sense of it is subjective and so a matter of personal perception. For one such as myself (I'm saying that, it's OK), then, the "aesthetically well done" is sufficient unto the day.   0:)

[Karl Henning]

Speaking for myself (oh, that was obvious, was it?) I find Minkowsky's Haydn both aesthetically well done, and quite sufficiently spiritual.

[Leon]

Spirituality is hard enough to nail down just by itself without trying to find evidence of it in a musical performance.

I like Minkowski's Haydn just fine and never thought to ask myself if his performances exhibit spirituality - which is not unique to his, but a question I never ask about any recording.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, before Antoine gets upset, I just want to point out that 'spirituality' is MY word. He may mean something else and I don't want to misrepresent that.

That said, I agree with you and Karl vis-a-vis Minkowski's performance style. I like his Mozart to, FWIW.

[Sergeant Rock]

I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

In order to understand what you mean by "intimate humanity" and "highest sense of divinity" can you give us examples of conductors and orchestras whom you believe achieve this?

Sarge

[mszczuj]

I would say that Minkowski spirituality is sufficiently Haydn alike. I don't like too much what he do with drums in "Drumroll" and the way he wants to suprise in "Suprise". But I suppose there is nothing in it which would be not acceptable to Haydn. Hiis London symphonies are for me real Haydn symphonies. All of them. When I listen to Bruggen London Symphonies I feel that  it is not Haydn at all.

[Antoine Marchand]

In order to understand what you mean by "intimate humanity" and "highest sense of divinity" can you give us examples of conductors and orchestras whom you believe achieve this?

Sarge

Obviously I don't try to create a general theory on this matter. I simply explained my own reasons to not sharing the apparent consensus on the excellence of Minkowski's recordings. In my opinion he is a gifted artisan, but not a great artist. When I wrote "humanity" and "divinity", I was specially thinking of his B-Minor Mass, where is quite evident (to me!) that all is well sung, but without getting a real sense of transcendence (as Leonhardt, for instance, among many other examples). Regarding Haydn my favorite kind of director is one like Kuijken (but equally Brüggen or the ongoing Londons by Weil), who is serious, but also ironic, long-breathed and so... But I repeat, I don't intend to persuade to anybody about this because it's just my opinion, subjective by definition: Minkowski is not one of my favorite directors, even if the entire world thinks that he is the freaking god of the orchestral direction. 

[Karl Henning]

. . . even if the entire world thinks that he is the freaking god of the orchestral direction. 

To quote Jeeves: The contingency is remote, sir.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have been thinking (always a sign of trouble) that I would like to take a few works and do a couple of things with them for the benefit of the Haydnistos. First, to take a specific piece and give as much of the history of it as I can muster up, and second, to show what recordings of it that I have which should be available and perhaps discuss them, FWIW. If there seems to be some interest in this line of endeavor, then perhaps I will continue, maybe with suggested works by yourselves.

Of course, I will only be looking at period instrument (PI) recordings, for a couple of reasons. First, that's all I have, really. True, in the Haydn area I have a relatively small (<100 disks) hoard of MI disks, but I haven't listened to them in a long time and don't remember how they stack up. Secondly, most discussions that I have read of PI recordings were written by people who knew and loved modern instrument (MI) recordings, and never seemed able to come to terms with the PI experience. So my hope is that I will compare apples to apples and leave any comparative thoughts vs. MI far behind.

Haydn's Concerto in Eb for Keyed Trumpet (1796) – Hoboken 07e:1
In 1796, Haydn was newly returned from England and comfortably ensconced in Vienna, which was finally recognizing him as the great composer that the rest of Europe had tumbled to years earlier. Haydn wrote his trumpet concerto for Anton Weidinger (born June 9th 1766, died in September 1852 at the age of 86 years and 3 months!), both as an act of friendship and because of his interest in innovation. Until then, Haydn's writing for the trumpet had rarely risen above the level of providing harmonic support or underlining a particular Affect. Now he took a closer interest in the new potential of what Weidinger termed his organisirte Trompete (organized trumpet), writing a trumpet part for him that was totally unlike the type of writing traditionally with the instrument. In this concert, chromatic runs and diatonic melodies replaced broken triads and fanfare motifs.

Weidinger started developing his keyed trumpet in 1793 and this trumpet (unlike the earlier natural trumpet) had 4-6 holes or keys. It could produce all the chromatic tones between (Eb) G and Bb''', but would usually be played at a lower pitch because of the range of the concerto. This Eb trumpet was evidently a forerunner of his 4-6 keyed trumpet (c.1801). There is some evidence that Weidinger knew Haydn before requesting the Concerto, and Haydn may well have been the best man at Weidinger's wedding in 1792. He was certainly a registered witness at the wedding of Weidinger's daughter in 1797.

After the first performances by Weidinger, the concerto was forgotten. In the late 1800's it was rediscovered. Paul Handke (who moved to USA and was trumpeter with Chicago Symphony Orchestra), wrote down the solo trumpet part from the original Haydn manuscript in 1899. In 1908, Professor Franz Rossbach, Solo trumpet with the Wiener Philharmoniker performed it again in Vienna. Then in March 1914, Eduard Seifert (1870-1965), Solo trumpet with the Dresdner Staatskapelle  performed the concerto in Dresden. Seifert copied the manuscript from Rossbach. The first time that the Concerto was heard in England was 30 March 1932. The performance was a BBC broadcast and the trumpeter was Ernest Hall. Finally, on Thursday night, June 23, 1938, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto was again broadcast by the BBC. Soloist was the English trumpeter George Eskdale. He played the second and third movements (Andante and Allegro). This broadcast was later made into a 78 rpm phonograph by Columbia Records (Col. 70106-D). It is believed to be the first recording of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto.
(I want to thank "O.J.'s Trumpet Page" blog for some of this info. He has no contact info posted so I can't be more precise, unfortunately)

A bit of analysis for those so inclined (stolen from here and there)
Splendidly orchestrated, Haydn's concerto fully exploits the trumpet's new technical abilities. The opening Allegro is festive and radiant, with the orchestra introducing the main themes before they're taken up by the soloist. There's a motif that initially rises, subsequently allowing the trumpet to show off its new stock of notes in the low register. This motif evolves into a fanfare-like subject, which the soloist enriches with effective trills and other ornamentation. The development section requires the trumpeter to play in different keys, which would have been impossible on a valveless trumpet.

Opening with a lovely, expansive melody in Siciliano style, the second movement reveals the full lyrical and expressive potential of the new trumpet. In addition, this movement, which exemplifies the consummate melodic artistry of Haydn's late works, showcases the instrument's ability to easily modulate from key to key. Haydn, particularly in this Andante, designs his melodies to highlight the features of the keyed instrument, concentrating unusual chromatic intervals in the low and middle registers, right where the poor old Heineken-free natural trumpet couldn't get. This is what gives it so distinctive a sound, making it a kindred spirit more of the Mozart Horn Concertos than any contemporaneous trumpet work.

Written in a sonata rondo form, the concluding Allegro begins with an angular, fanfare-like theme, continuing with material which calls upon the soloist's dexterity in handling trills and other technical effects. Following a concise, brief development section which mainly negotiates primary thematic material, a recapitulation leads the trumpeter to a higher, brighter tessitura. A spirited combination of technical brilliance and musical élan, the third movement ends with a gleaming, celebratory coda. And there is that special delight, Haydn's endearing habit of slipping in a little joke. After the first movement's grand cadenza, and hearing the big build up in the finale, the pregnant pause positively screams "another cadenza coming!" . . . and then it doesn't. Unless the soloist has slipped in one of his own, in which case the joke will be on those that know this joke.

All well and good, you say (as do I), but for me, the actual wit comes in the first part of the trumpet solo. This instrument had been being touted around Vienna for a good long time, and everyone in the audience was rather looking forward to hearing this bit of chromatic magic. So what does Haydn open up with? Of course; a long run of notes that can have been played by any trumpet then in existence. That's my boy Joe.


PI recording history on Keyed Trumpet
I don't know if this is a surprise to anyone here or not; there are only 4 recordings made of this work on a real keyed trumpet. In order, they are;
1. Friedemann Immer did the first recording in 1987 with a keyed trumpet (on an instrument made by Rudolf Tutz Innsbruck, 1984). This is an all Haydn disc that also features the horn concerto played by Timothy Brown on a ca. 1830 horn.
Orchestra led by Christopher Hogwood. All playing on period instruments, including Steven Keavy, David Staff and Crispian Steele-Perkins on period trumpets.
L'OISEAU-LYRE 417 610-2 OH (DECCA), 1987.

2. Mark Bennett is also a specialist on the natural trumpet. He lives in England and studied with Michael Laird. He recorded the Haydn Concerto on a keyed trumpet, August 11, 1992 with conductor Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert. On that CD is also other works by Haydn (for oboe (attributed to) and natural horn).
Archiv - #31678 / Audio CD / DDD, 1992

3. Reinhold Friedrich was the third person to make a recording using a copy of the instrument that was used by Weidinger in 1800. He is accompanied by Wiener Akademie lead by Martin Haselböck. The orchestra uses all period instruments. Friedrich had his first live performance with this instrument in 1993. He then played the Haydn Concerto in the same place as Weidinger had premiered it two centuries earlier.
In 1995 he did the recording on the label Capriccio and here he also recorded the Hummel Concerto and the M. Puccini's Concertone.
Capriccio 10 598 / Audio CD / DDD, 1995

4. Crispian Steele-Perkins recorded Hummel on a keyed trumpet in 2001 - on a CD  called "Classical Trumpet Concertos"
Crispian Steele-Perkins, natural and keyed trumpets
The King's Consort / Dir: Robert King
Rec date: Jan. 2001, London, Blackheath Concert Halls
Hyperion - CDA67266 (66'18")




Since I am blessed with all four of these disks, listening to them several times over was easy as could be. Choosing a disk to recommend, however, was something entirely different. I have a score for the solo trumpet part and followed it through with each player. It was difficult to spot any discrepancies, and really, the faithfulness to the score was admirable. Trills are all marked, so ornaments aren't really more of an issue for PI players than they are for MI ones. I would have liked to see any of them diverge a bit in that category, but no, not a great lot of derring-do, I'm afraid. Perhaps it is difficult enough as written.
If there is any performance controversy, it can reasonably be considered to be the pace of the Andante inner movement. 6/8 Andante's at the turn of the 18th/19th century were nearly always played at <> eighth = 120. This is based on writings by Czerny and particularly Neukomm, who of course was a pupil of Haydn. Once the metronome was invented and it became fashionable to retrofit metronome markings to earlier works, all of Czerny and Neukomm's markings in Haydn's works (The Creation, some of the London symphonies etc), the examples of 6/8 Andantes are all in that range. However, modern performance  is much slower. Of our 4 performances in question here, they range like this;
Immer = 88
Bennett = 76
Friedrich = 96
Steele-Perkins = 94

So despite being rather slower than it is supposed to be, Friedrich's is closest to 'correct'. The same holds true with MI versions, BTW. The overall average of all recordings is <>90. I find it interesting that the only versions that are 'on tempo' are the earliest recorded versions from the 1930's!  What conclusions to draw from this? I think that at least one is that people can't get past the idea that the inner movement of a concerto is supposed to be a slow movement. But if Haydn wanted slow, he wouldn't have written "Andante", would he?

Anyway, carrying on; I don't want to base choices on the remainder of the coupled material either; two (Hogwood & Pinnock) are 'All-Haydn' (well, more or less) and the other two (Friedrich & Perkins) are all trumpet concertos by various composers. So if that's your criterion, then I've cut your choices in half.  

Of the two that are all works by Haydn(*) I find that the accompaniment of The English Concert / Pinnock for Bennett is more lively and effective than that of the Academy of Ancient Music. In addition, Bennett doesn't seem to be having the struggle of his life with the instrument that Immer seems to be having. Although I suppose the added drama of guessing whether Immer will survive the ordeal gives some added spice.   But overall, the Pinnock has that extra spark that just seems to set it over the top for me.

Of the two which are compilations, it is perhaps an even more difficult choice. Perkins has a beautiful clear tone which is possibly the best of the lot. But I really do enjoy the playing of the Wiener Akademie / Haselböck, and Friedrich manages the best lot of cadenzas of all four, which is the only place that the individuality of the player really gets to show through. So that said, I choose Friedrich / Haselböck  in that semi-final.
One thing that I can say with certainty is that there are no losers among the four, so if you are looking for a PI version of this work to add to your collection, I can wholeheartedly recommend any of these, just based on your own criteria.

Please feel free to critique and discuss. What I didn't discover from online and book reading (the facts) I just present as my own opinion anyway, and you know I am always willing to change that.

[Karl Henning]

A post of surpassingly excellent coolness, O Gurn. Stop me if I've said this already, but this concerto is a sentimental favorite of mine, the very first Haydn for me not merely to have played, but ever to have heard. I must have been in ninth or tenth grade, and a trumpeter who was one grade ahead of me was easily the finest student musician in the school. (We've since gotten back in touch, thanks to the miracle of the internet.) So, this schoolmate of mine was the soloist, and we played the accompaniment in band transcription (talk about as non-PI as you can get).

I still remember, as if it were yesterday, the magic woven upon me by the first movement: simplicity itself, but a grace, and a profound sweetness. Incredible, and I cannot really put it into words.

It wasn't until a good deal later that I discovered that I wished to be a composer. But playing the Haydn was an earlier watershed, and I knew I should never give up playing clarinet while I have breath.

[kishnevi]

There.  You've talked me into getting the three I don't already have.  Satsfied?

in the Haydn area I have a relatively small (<100 disks) hoard of MI disks,

Only in GMG would the phrase "relatively small" be appled to a 100 disc collection.