Horns & Trombones

[snyprrr]

I know, I know,... I just CAN't seem to figure out the difference here. I listened to a Double Concerto by Benedict Mason in which the two principals are fairly woven into the fabric of the piece so I didn't have a good chance of distinguishing between the two.

Now, I've heard Trombone Concertos, and I've heard Horn Concertos, but I'm having such a time of it. What is the secret???

I know the horn has the more rounded, coming-from-below type sound, though it can 'bark' out with a real treble tang. The trombone, to me, seems to have such a strange solo sound,... I can tell that it isn't as 'rounded' as the horn, having a little more natural 'bark'. The trombone, I imagine, is a bit lower than the horn, having a low range that can get a bit farty.

What might be some classic passages, or pieces, where the differences between the two are shown in bold relief?

[Szykneij]

Hmmmm ... Not two instruments that are generally confused. Sometimes it's hard to pick out individual lines when a whole brass section is playing, but the French Horn and Trombone sounds are distinctive.
For one thing, as you mentioned, the overall range of the Trombone is lower. While the ranges do overlap, a Horn in the lower register doesn't have the power and resonance of the Trombone playing the same notes.
  Mechanically, they are very different, which accounts for their individual timbres. The trombone is a cylindrical bore instrument with a heavy cup-shaped mouthpiece and a slide. The French Horn is a conical bore instrument with a slender cone-shaped mouthpiece and rotary valves. While pitches for both instruments are changed with the embouchure, this happens more frequently with the French Horn. Also, the use of the right hand in the bell of the French Horn gives it a more distinctive sound.
  I'm not familiar with the Benedict Mason piece, so I'll try to give it a listen. Perhaps it's written in a range where the two instruments sound most similar. I would think through listening to a variety of Trombone and French Horn solo pieces, though, that the unique characteristics of each instrument would become evident.

[Scion7]

As an ex-high school (french) horn player, I can tell you the trombone is capable of a BLAT! that the horn certainly cannot.
I think the Bruckner 4th might be of help to you in hearing a real distinction.

Also, Eric Ewazen may come to the rescue:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD-PaAYUfB4

"A Philharmonic Fanfare" for trumpet, horn and trombone, (commissioned by the NY Philharmonic, premiered by Phil Smith and David Finlayson), 1997, 4'(Ewazen)

        If you listen to Jazz at all, there are numerous modern-jazz recordings that feature the trombone that explore tonalities for that instrument typically not employed in Classical music, but after hearing alot of it, will make you more attune to what a trombone sounds like.  However, the horn in Jazz is almost unheard of - maybe Anthony Braxton employed it here and there .....

[snyprrr]

Hmmmm ... Not two instruments that are generally confused. Sometimes it's hard to pick out individual lines when a whole brass section is playing, but the French Horn and Trombone sounds are distinctive.
For one thing, as you mentioned, the overall range of the Trombone is lower. While the ranges do overlap, a Horn in the lower register doesn't have the power and resonance of the Trombone playing the same notes.
  Mechanically, they are very different, which accounts for their individual timbres. The trombone is a cylindrical bore instrument with a heavy cup-shaped mouthpiece and a slide. The French Horn is a conical bore instrument with a slender cone-shaped mouthpiece and rotary valves. While pitches for both instruments are changed with the embouchure, this happens more frequently with the French Horn. Also, the use of the right hand in the bell of the French Horn gives it a more distinctive sound.
  I'm not familiar with the Benedict Mason piece, so I'll try to give it a listen. Perhaps it's written in a range where the two instruments sound most similar. I would think through listening to a variety of Trombone and French Horn solo pieces, though, that the unique characteristics of each instrument would become evident.

As an ex-high school (french) horn player, I can tell you the trombone is capable of a BLAT! that the horn certainly cannot.
I think the Bruckner 4th might be of help to you in hearing a real distinction.

Also, Eric Ewazen may come to the rescue:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD-PaAYUfB4

"A Philharmonic Fanfare" for trumpet, horn and trombone, (commissioned by the NY Philharmonic, premiered by Phil Smith and David Finlayson), 1997, 4'(Ewazen)

        If you listen to Jazz at all, there are numerous modern-jazz recordings that feature the trombone that explore tonalities typically not employed in Classical music, but after hearing alot of it, will make you more attune to what a trombone sounds like.  However, the horn in Jazz is almost unheard of - maybe Anthony Braxton employed it here and there .....

Thanks guys. Good, insightful observations, especially the BLAT! I've got a bunch of brass quintets also to study.

So, if I may, is the trombone the one that sounds most 'badass'? The growlier?

In a chord, is one usually on top, or does it always depend?


I'll get on it!

[Luke]

  However, the horn in Jazz is almost unheard of - maybe Anthony Braxton employed it here and there .....

Ermmmm.....how about that uber-seminal, infamous Miles Davis recording, Birth of the Cool? With Gunther Schuller on horn, of course, along with a couple of other players on various sessions. And then after that, there are three french horn players on each of the Davis/Evans albums Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain and (less worthy than the previous ones) Quiet Nights. The first two of these, along with Birth of the Cool, are among the finest, most important and most famous jazz recordings ever made, so I guess we can allow the horn a presence in jazz!

[Szykneij]

Thanks guys. Good, insightful observations, especially the BLAT! I've got a bunch of brass quintets also to study.

That would be helpful, but try to find some solo material for each that lets you hear the full range of the instrument clearly.

So, if I may, is the trombone the one that sounds most 'badass'? The growlier?

Both instruments can sound growly, but the French Horn will sound growlier in a section as opposed to alone. Think of the trombone as the lion and the French Horn as the wolf.

In a chord, is one usually on top, or does it always depend?

In a musical score, the horns appear above the trombones and would in theory play the higher note, but in a symphony orchestra with 6 French Horns and 3 Trombones, some of the notes would likely be duplicated between the instruments.

[Geo Dude]

If you listen to Jazz at all, there are numerous modern-jazz recordings that feature the trombone that explore tonalities for that instrument typically not employed in Classical music, but after hearing alot of it, will make you more attune to what a trombone sounds like.  However, the horn in Jazz is almost unheard of - maybe Anthony Braxton employed it here and there .....

I'm very interested in modern jazz recordings featuring the trombone, myself.

[snyprrr]

That would be helpful, but try to find some solo material for each that lets you hear the full range of the instrument clearly.

Both instruments can sound growly, but the French Horn will sound growlier in a section as opposed to alone. Think of the trombone as the lion and the French Horn as the wolf.

In a musical score, the horns appear above the trombones and would in theory play the higher note, but in a symphony orchestra with 6 French Horns and 3 Trombones, some of the notes would likely be duplicated between the instruments.

You are giving me some awesomely worded... it's amazing to me how people who know a lot about something are then able to communicate things in such, for lack of a better word, 'common sense', way,... making me feel smarter in the process! Thanks, your few words have set up a scaffolding in my mind. The wolf and lion is priceless! I get it!! Those are the kind of analogies that instantly work for me.


I have some solo trombone (Lindberg), and the piece Anaktoria by Xenakis (same as the Mozart Octet) has lots of solo horn doing all the non horn things. Xenakis, also, likes to use 2trombones/2horns a lot: his memoriam to Lutoslawski is up shortly.


Generally, I can tell the trumpets because of that piercing quality, and the tuba always seems to have that dulled/rounded top that sounds much rounder than the horn. Perhaps in some of this Modern Music, the Composers are purposefully confusing the listener with all the mixed up sonorities (tubas imitating horns and such (things not going the way they're 'supposed' to))?

Again, this is a much needed 'catch up' for me. Thanks.

[petrarch]

Perhaps in some of this Modern Music, the Composers are purposefully confusing the listener with all the mixed up sonorities (tubas imitating horns and such (things not going the way they're 'supposed' to))?

I would rather say they are extracting new or different sonorities from the same old instruments. For another solo piece for trombone, check Berio's Sequenza V.

[Superhorn]

  I'm also a former horn player, freelance. The horn has a completely different mouthpiece from the other brass instruments, trumpets, trombones, tubas, baritone horns etc. 
   The French horn mouthpiece is funnel shaped, unlike the cup-shaped mouthpieces of the other brass instruments. 
In addition, the rim is extrmely thin compared to the other brass instruments, making it much harder to play and easy to tire the lips from the pressure on it .
   

[Karl Henning]

 Quote from: Szykneij on March 04, 2012, 09:31:22 AM

In a musical score, the horns appear above the trombones . . . .

 
Indeed, in traditional score order, the horns appear above the trumpets, even . . . .

[TheGSMoeller]

For a good orchestral reference, listen to the opening of Mahler's 3rd. Opens with 8 horns, towards the end of their phrase the trombone section arrives with a powerful lower ranged chord. In fact if you continued through the entire 1st movement you would find some good horn/t-bone lines, and of course one of the greatest, if not the greatest of trombone solos about 4-5 minutes into the movement.

For pure power I would suggest the NYP with Bernstein on DG recorded around 1990, features Joe Alessi on trombone, not the most lyrical-sounding trombone section in the world, but they can knock the walls off of any venue. Same goes for Philip Myers and the horn section.

For a more cleaner/lyrical-sound listen to Boulez with VPO on DG.

I am a former horn player myself and my brother is a pro-trombonist, I have always loved the versatility of the brass instruments. 

[snyprrr]

I would rather say they are extracting new or different sonorities from the same old instruments. For another solo piece for trombone, check Berio's Sequenza V.

That BIS disc of Lindberg, with Berio, Stockhausen, Cage, and Xenakis, is quite the aural Q-Tip!!

I can't think of comparable solo pieces for horn, though.

[Superhorn]

  In the  Brahms 4th, the horns are above the TRUMPETS, not the trombones.  The trombones don't play until the finale .

[Karl Henning]

Yes. Which word didn't you understand? . . .


  Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 02:20:33 PM >Quote from: Szykneij on March 04, 2012, 09:31:22 AM

In a musical score, the horns appear above the trombones . . . .

Indeed, in traditional score order, the horns appear above the trumpets, even . . . .
 

[snyprrr]

I really appreciate this back and forth.


I listened to Xenakis's Anaktoria, which opens with a totally avant horn solo, braying away. At no point in this piece does the horn have its usually 'rounded' tone. Apparently, when you blow nice and hard, the horn then does that cool thing that sounds so good when played in fifths.

I'm starting to get the idea that these instruments start to sound different the more of them that you add. What's the sound between a slightly undernourished brass section, and one that really fills the space. I guess the one instance that I am thoroughly familiar with is the Sokol Fanfare by Janacek. I know that that's trumpets, but still, brass en masse have an oomph that requires a certain number of blow holes. Yes?

I'm thinking about playing a solo t-bone on cd, and find a solo horn on YT, and playing them together.

I'm learning here, but still confused. Thanks all.

[Karl Henning]

Horn . . . braying . . . now whom does that make me think of? . . .

[Geo Dude]

Horn . . . braying . . . now whom does that make me think of? . . .

[snyprrr]

ok, I had Berio's trombone work on YT while the Xenakis horn bit was on the cd player. WOW!!, nothing like direct comparison!! The horn definitely sounds 'higher' than the t-bone, but, seriously, I'm now more confused than ever. The differences in the sounds of the two instruments just seem to melt together when they're played together.

Both instruments display awesome braying capabilities. Oy, just thinking about this makes my head hurt. Obviously, it would help to be around a brass section (my friend is a band leader).